How To Turn Your Pain Into Greatness - Bugzy Malone (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 Brand new Modern Wisdom merch goes live this Friday. Look at this beautiful Doing the Thing angel. We've got our first ever death metal design, sleeveless T-shirt and a hoodie, this awesome High Country Ranch thing that we've got, this snake design, which I love, Wisdom Nation world tour, Wisdom coffee, and much more. Sign up at mwmerch.com now to be the first person to get access [clicks tongue] . What's the difference between making it and maintaining it?

Bugzy Malone 0:27 I think the difference is we're advertised to, right, a lot as, as kids. So coming up to me, I, I seen a lot of nice clothes, Lamborghinis, lifestyles that appeared to sort of be people that have made it in life. So we're sort of programmed into trying to get there. And I think once you get there, um, there's a whole maintenance situation that nobody's talking about-

Chris Williamson 1:06 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:07 ... and you're not prepared for, and I think that's why so many people sort of shoot up, um, plateau, and fall off.

Chris Williamson 1:14 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:15 Because it's not advertised that it's tough all the way through. You gotta be the best version of yourself all the way through. It's not just make it, kick your feet up, you know, and relax.

Chris Williamson 1:31 I think the total addressable market for people who want advice on how to make it versus the people who want advice on how to maintain it is basically a ten thousand to one, hundred thousand to one, right? Almost everybody is not yet where they want to be-

Bugzy Malone 1:46 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:46 ... uh, financially, in terms of status, in terms of recognition or admiration or respect by people that they respect. And because of that, it means that if you're looking at the world of advice-

Bugzy Malone 1:57 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:57 ... most people are still on the climb as opposed to trying to maintain the altitude that they've got to, and that means, yeah, that almost all of the pieces of goodwill and sage archetype mythology is about you getting to the top.

Bugzy Malone 2:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:13 Not about what happens when you get there. I'm kind of fascinated about the difference between someone who never makes it and someone who's fallen off, and the pain and the, uh, the way that that's interpreted. Huh, that person never actually made it to the top, as opposed to the boxer or the rapper or the movie star that did, had it all in their hands, and then let it go. No wonder which one's more painful.

Bugzy Malone 2:38 It's such an interesting concept, man, because you... When we last spoke, you was like, "Where's your head at? How have you been?" And that's something that I'm sort of addressing at the minute. And, um, where is the top, right? And I think what a lot of people do is ... It may be in the Bible, it says, "A lover of silver will never be content with silver," something along them lines. And what I've recently figured out is that, like, I'm content. I've really got everything I ever wanted and more. And I think if you're not careful, what sort of happens is you're tricked into thinking that you need more.

Chris Williamson 3:30 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 3:31 And I think they're the people that get into trouble. You know? They're trying to impress other people. They want validation. They want people to, to pat them on the back. And I think when you get into a place where you don't need nobody to pat you on the back-

Chris Williamson 3:46 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 3:47 .. don't need nobody's validation, you actually strip it back to who am I? What are my experiences of this planet? And, and sort of recently I've understood that, like, I come from really humble beginnings, man. You know, I've had to sort of ... It's been an interesting process making this album because I sort of told myself, "If, if I can't be more vulnerable and more honest than I've been before and make something that's of a higher quality than what I've made before, I'm not gonna do it." And I was serious about that. So, um, I had to go through a process of, like, stripping it back, and w- when I spent some sort of time in my mind at the beginning of my life, it dawned on me that, like, I've got everything I ever wanted and some. You know? Which sort of starts a different direction.

Chris Williamson 4:48 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 4:49 You know? And what I, what I see is people that have got, like, a number in their head and material things that they told themselves they'll get, and now because they've identified with being somebody that doesn't quit, they have to get there.

Chris Williamson 5:04 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 5:05 You understand? And, um, I, I don't think any of that's real. I think it's a- an insecurity you must overcome.

Chris Williamson 5:15 I had a Navy SEAL on the podcast, a guy called Andy Stumpf, and he's now a big podcaster. I think he's done 10,000 skydives in his career. Unbelievably accomplished. I think he holds some world records for maybe BASE jumping or, or, um, wingsuit gliding or something like that, so like a, a very extreme human, um, but does it all with a lot of humor. He's got like a... He's one of those people who very lethal, very trained, but does it with a smile on their face, which makes them feel, to me, more disturbing.

Bugzy Malone 5:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:45 The fact that you do it with that sense of, uh, sort of gallows humor to me is like, holy shit, like, you're really scary. Anyway, he was telling me this story. He'd created his entire life identity around being a person that doesn't quit. Right? This is who I am. I'm a Navy SEAL. I do not quit. I do not give up. I do not leave my guys behind. I push through selection, training, f- firefights, anything, everything. I don't quit.

Bugzy Malone 6:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:13 That's what I've built my identity around. But the don't quit muscle had also caused him to stay in a very toxic marriage for 15 years.

Bugzy Malone 6:24 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:24 "Well, I'm the guy that doesn't quit." He's like-

Bugzy Malone 6:27 Hmm

Chris Williamson 6:27 ... "Well, sometimes that skill of not quitting, of not giving up, of continuing to push through, of denying your emotions, how you feel, pushing that to one side can actually be something that is not a performance enhancer, but it's a constraint."

Bugzy Malone 6:42 Mm.

Chris Williamson 6:42 And I came up with this line when he was talking to me, which is, "What you are praised for in public, you often pay for in private."

Bugzy Malone 6:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:52 What are the prices of the things that you have built? You've constructed this very unique version of yourself.

Bugzy Malone 6:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:59 Navy SEAL, rapper, person who's overcoming challenges of childhood. Okay? But what's the cost of doing that as well?

Bugzy Malone 7:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:08 And nobody wants to talk about that.

Bugzy Malone 7:11 The cost. Yeah. So, so again, recently I've, I've understood that like it sort of cost me anyway everything, because what you don't understand when you're looking up at essentially a new world, you know, if you're coming from real poverty, real dysfunction, and where you propose to get to is a functional place and a, an affluent place, something's gotta give, and there's parts of yourself that have, have to die.

Chris Williamson 7:52 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 7:53 And there's a whole life that you identified with that's gotta die, and death, death is always violent, right? It's never gentle. So when you talk about sort of paying the cost, I relate.

Chris Williamson 8:11 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 8:11 Yeah, yeah. And I think now that I've, quote-unquote, "made it," um, the dust starts to settle with where you're actually up to. And I recently had a, a family member pass away, and it's, it's a heavy one because he would drink a lot, and there was some drugs involved. And when I, when I was young, I would, I would look up to him. He would, he would be the guy that like I was trying to be like him. Um, and then life got on top of him. We had a fallout, and you sort of see where it's going, and you're sort of grieving that relationship.

Chris Williamson 9:00 In advance.

Bugzy Malone 9:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:01 Oh, that's so interesting.

Bugzy Malone 9:03 Yeah. Because-

Chris Williamson 9:04 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 9:04 ... you know-

Chris Williamson 9:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Bugzy Malone 9:05 ... alcoholism, any of these vices, they're, they're a train crash waiting to happen.

Chris Williamson 9:12 They're a slow burn though, right?

Bugzy Malone 9:13 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:14 Yeah. I think, uh, relationships are somewhat similar. The sort of ... You have this sense that it's over between you and a, a partner, that it's not going to work.

Bugzy Malone 9:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:25 The sort of the writing is on the wall, but you're still on the train car-

Bugzy Malone 9:29 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 9:29 ... so to speak.

Bugzy Malone 9:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:30 And you can slowly see this thing coming toward you, and it's this odd kind of prospective grief.

Bugzy Malone 9:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:39 You know? You're thinking about the future grief that you're going to feel in the moment. It's like you're taking regret from the future and bringing it down into the present-

Bugzy Malone 9:48 Yeah

Chris Williamson 9:48 ... anticipating that it's about to arrive.

Bugzy Malone 9:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:51 And, um, I've had people in my life that have taken their own lives. One of my longest friends did only a couple of months ago-

Bugzy Malone 9:59 Wow. Sorry

Chris Williamson 9:59 ... in Dubai. Yeah. Uh, I mean, he was always an extreme individual, but, uh, he decided that the way that he was going to end it was to throw himself off the 60th floor of a building. That, that wasn't a surprise to people. It wasn't a surprise.

Bugzy Malone 10:19 Right.

Chris Williamson 10:19 As much as everyone loved him, and he had like the one of the biggest funerals that you can think of, I don't think that that many people were surprised. Saddened, distraught, like destroyed by this wonderful guy not being here anymore, but you kind of saw it coming as well, and you're like, "Oh, fuck. What does that mean?" And then there's the guilt of like, "Well, if you could see it coming, how couldn't you step in to fix something?"

Bugzy Malone 10:43 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's only so much you can do. Uh, and I think that's the top and bottom of it is, is in the end, you gotta be responsible for yourself. You know? This position that I found myself in comes with a lot of, um, people asking for advice, people relating, people being inspired by. Almost feels like my, my purpose to, to acquire this spot. However, I've gotta be the best version of myself.

Chris Williamson 11:19 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 11:20 There's only so much externally I can do. So to me, it feels like the, the journey's always an internal one. You know? And it's sad, and it hurts. However, that's ... These are the realities of life. You know? And it's not until you sort of take that on board that you sort of take your own life more seriously. You know? And that's the conclusion I came to. Can, can you stop an alcoholic from drinking?

Chris Williamson 11:51 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 11:52 I'm just a man. Can you, can you stop somebody that's suicidal from jumping? I'm not God. You know? All I can do is be the best version of myself and hope that that rubs off in a positive way.

Chris Williamson 12:07 Can we talk about your childhood?

Bugzy Malone 12:08 If you like.

Chris Williamson 12:11 For the people that don't know what growing up for you was like, what was that like? What were the formative experiences that sort of made you into who you became?

Bugzy Malone 12:24 Yeah, just complex really. I think the m- the more I sort of look back and understand it from an adult perspective, there was just a lot of complexities going on in there that like, um, create confusion, and as people, we're confused anyway, right? You go from being a, a boy to a teenager, that's confusing. Then from a teenager to a man, that's confusing. You start adding in some dysfunctional characters, some crime, some deaths, some murders, and what I've recently sort of understood is you sort of lose, you lose confidence in, in your place in society 'cause you don't feel like you fit in. You know? You sort of know things, and you've sort of seen things that go against the norms, that go against what people think is reality. You know? What like ... I mean, if we, if we go sort of go to my early days of being interested in being a, a villain for a living, 'cause that was sort of the example that I'd, I'd seen.

Chris Williamson 13:44 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 13:45 You know, the coolest individual I'd ever seen was a very well-paid criminal, and, um, y- you come from tough beginnings a- and, and you're looking for a job description, right? So in sort of trying to get my education in that world, in that area, you stumble across some colorful characters, man, and you meet a man that's murdered people and not been convicted, and he's at large, and he's just in the community prior to him meeting his, um, his own sort of violent demise. Y- you, you start to see that like what people think it is, it's not. There, there is a world outside of the parameters of what people are calling normal, and it's really there, and it really exists. I always sort of used to ... As a kid, I'd, I'd watch Harry Potter, right? And then, and that's got an interesting sort of similarity in that like you've got what they call the mug- Muggles, the humans, the, the normal people, and then there's the wizarding world, but they're separate. You gotta go on platform nine and, what is it? Three quarters, and run through the wall at the right angle to sort of be immersed into the wizarding world, and that's what the underbelly's like. It's just a whole different ballgame-

Chris Williamson 15:14 Mm

Bugzy Malone 15:14 ... with a different set of rules.

Chris Williamson 15:16 When did you first get exposed to that?

Bugzy Malone 15:18 Th- that's what I'm saying. That's why it's complex because I think, uh, my, um, mum sort of seen it coming and was trying to shield me from it, which sort of meant I was under-prepared, if you like. You know? And then it's just happening. It's just turning up. That's like Harry Potter when the letters are coming through the door, and he's like, "What are them letters?" And they're hiding them from him 'cause they know, like, there's a, there's a world that you're sort of inheriting that we're trying to shield you from. It's just turning up, and it was like that for me. You know? And, um, so you go from sort of very normal to, you know, a, a man has been murdered in your uncle's house where you'll go and stay at the weekends. But you're a kid, so no one's having that conversation with you. You're just sort of getting exposed to it-

Chris Williamson 16:19 Mm

Bugzy Malone 16:19 ... naturally.

Chris Williamson 16:20 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 16:21 That's confusing 'cause then you'll go to your friend's house to play football in his living room with a little soft football, and you start seeing that, like, your world's completely different to mine. The way you talk about your family is completely different to the way I'm hearing my family spoke about. And in fact, when your mum gets home, she gives you that look as if to say, "Why, why have you got him here?"

Chris Williamson 16:46 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 16:47 So you start ... Y- you're not fitting in nowhere, right? And, and there's two ways of looking at that. You can look at that w- with the c- cup half empty or half full, and the more I delve into my faith, the more I sort of understand that, like, special people on the planet get challenged early doors. It's all a challenge to sort of anchor you in, in faith and strength, determination. [inhales] So there's been many a time that I've sort of felt like a victim, like-

Chris Williamson 17:24 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 17:25 ... why was I exposed to these things? And then eventually sort of come to terms with the fact that it was given to me because I can handle it. You know?

Chris Williamson 17:39 It's an interesting quirk of childhood that when you get exposed to things, nobody explains why they're happening.

Bugzy Malone 17:50 Mm.

Chris Williamson 17:50 And you're right. It's just like osmosis. You're around this particular type of function or dysfunction, this type of love or this type of, uh, abandonment, this type of belonging or th- th- this type of isolation, and all of these things just sort of happen. And because you don't have perspective 'cause you're a kid, you just think, "Well, this is what life is."

Bugzy Malone 18:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:15 This is how a family works, or this is how a mom and a dad talk to each other

Bugzy Malone 18:19 It's an interesting point, brother. You really gotta go and get your education on that. As an individual in the world, you know, I see so many people that have sort of taken for granted where they, where they started, right? And let's say their father is an alcoholic, and he beats the mum, and that's their understanding of love. And they might be internally fighting that 'cause they sort of know it's wrong.

Chris Williamson 18:47 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 18:48 But then you get imposter syndrome because they feel like, "I'm sort of raised by a man that hits a woman-

Chris Williamson 18:55 Mm

Bugzy Malone 18:56 ... and treats kids bad." And you really just gotta get into the world, and that's why in music my sort of motto was be inspired, is be inspired. You gotta sort of look at greatness and high-performing individuals, responsible individuals, accountable individuals, and just take bits, learn bits-

Chris Williamson 19:21 Mm

Bugzy Malone 19:21 ... and understand what it is to be a, a man, I would say. But it's not just men, is it? It's being a, a good human being. Um, and then you gotta sort of detach. You gotta detach from the, the negative, um, examples that you've been shown.

Chris Williamson 19:40 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 19:41 That they don't define you.

Chris Williamson 19:43 It's so fascinating when people start to do healing work or reflection or therapy or delve into their own origins. There's so many little pitfalls. It's kind of amazing that anybody ever makes it out of their own childhood challenges by reflecting on them without being completely destroyed because there's so many ways that you can go, "That thing happened to me, therefore I'm a victim. That thing happened to me, therefore I should be bitter. That thing happened to me, therefore I should repeat it in my life. That thing happened to me, therefore I shouldn't be able to work as hard or I shouldn't be able to get as far." Like there's so many ways that deciding to finally face what happened when you were younger, whether it's big or small, whether it's traumatic with a capital T or with a small T, so many different ways that that could be interpreted in later life as a justification for you railing against the world or not being a good person, or being a good person but wrapping your entire identity up about something that happened to you when you were 11 or 12 or 15. It's kind of amazing that anybody makes it through adult life healed without being taken away by what happened to them when they were a kid.

Bugzy Malone 20:55 Yeah. I think it's, I think it's the pattern of the universe, man. If, if we was to use an, an analogy of a boxing coach, I think what God's sort of doing is putting you in the exact situation that is gonna create resilience in you for, for the, the challenges you're gonna have to go through in sort of parenthood or your career or seeking your purpose basically. I think that's all it comes down to.

Chris Williamson 21:26 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 21:26 I think each individual has a purpose of, of some description, and if we do use the analogy of a coach, when a boxing trainer puts you in a spar, and this has happened to me, puts you in a spar with a guy that can whoop your ass, um, you don't understand that until you get the benefits later down the line. He sort of put you in that situation because he knew it was just enough for you to handle.

Chris Williamson 21:56 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 21:57 You know? And the adversity that you have to face on that day is gonna be exactly what you need to sort of gain the skills to sort of take you to the next level. I had a situation with a guy. He happened to commit suicide, rest in peace, and but he was a good boxer, man. He was a good boxer from where I'm from. A little villain he was, and a little bit older than me, and I'd, I'd sort of been in and around the boxing gym for a couple of years. My coach liked me 'cause I'm a, a student type character, and he threw me in with this guy, and I, I remember thinking, "He's a bit good for me, innit?" And he was beating me up pillar to post. And, um, and here's an interesting one about belief because when I was getting beaten up, I just couldn't believe I could lace this guy's boots.

Chris Williamson 22:55 Hmm.

Bugzy Malone 22:55 And I remember after a couple of rounds, my coach said, "Remember the uppercut we've been working on? Jab and step back and then uppercut." And I was, "I'm just doing as I'm told," right? So then I get back in. We, we get into it. I do the jab. I take that step back. I throw the uppercut, and the guy bites his tongue in half. Blood everywhere. Spar called off, right? And in that moment, what I sort of took from boxing is that same belief that my coach had in me about my ability and what I was actually capable of-

Chris Williamson 23:32 Mm

Bugzy Malone 23:32 ... I, I had to learn to have in myself in order to actually attain success. Yeah, no, and that was probably the heaviest lesson that I, I learned in boxing because it was because of that coach, um, an elderly man called Brian Hughes, I'll say his name as much as I can just because, um, he had such a profound impact in my life. Um, but the way he was able to see things in me, I couldn't see them in myself.

Chris Williamson 24:01 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 24:01 And it took me many years to understand that like, oh, like belief Faith is a journey that you've got to walk by yourself

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Bugzy Malone 25:10 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 25:12 ... modernwisdom. [clears throat] Good duck. Well played.

Chris Williamson 25:17 There's a, an idea called Solomon's Paradox. Solomon's Paradox is that we are much better at giving advice to other people than we are at giving it to ourselves.

Bugzy Malone 25:26 For sure.

Chris Williamson 25:26 And, uh, you have a friend that's going through a difficult relationship, and you tell them precisely the sort of loving, caring, encouraging, reassuring, motivational thing that they need to hear, and it's pithy and beautiful and memorable, and also the exact thing that you need to hear yourself. We're much better at giving advice to other people. But I wonder if there's an equivalent here with regards to self-belief for a lot of people, that sometimes we are much better at believing in other people than we are believing in ourselves. That we can often see in our friends and the people around us, and maybe even just the people that we respect and admire, a type of resilience and capacity and talent that they can't see in themselves. And maybe your goal in life should be to try and find as many friends as possible who believe in you more than you believe in you.

Bugzy Malone 26:23 I'm gonna disagree. Yeah, I think it's harder. I think it's a harder path. I think the actual challenge of life is removing all crutches-

Chris Williamson 26:36 Mm

Bugzy Malone 26:37 ... that you're leaning on.

Chris Williamson 26:38 Entire self-reliance.

Bugzy Malone 26:39 Yeah. Get to that place, and then you've got something to offer to friends-

Chris Williamson 26:44 Mm

Bugzy Malone 26:44 ... as opposed to being reliant on friends' opinions of you.

Chris Williamson 26:48 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 26:49 Because as human beings, we've all got a persona, right? So that means sometimes the people say they believe, but deep down when they go home and take the mask off, they're like, "He can't really do that."

Chris Williamson 27:03 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 27:03 And that, that will have an effect. That's there in the, in the vibration of that person.

Chris Williamson 27:10 Do you think that part of that worldview comes from growing up in an environment where you couldn't rely on anybody, this level of extreme self-sufficiency?

Bugzy Malone 27:22 Interesting one, because I think the closer you can get to the, to the dark side of life, the more realism you're exposed to.

Chris Williamson 27:43 How so?

Bugzy Malone 27:45 You, you see it for what it really is. You see human nature for what it really is. A lot of people are acting, man. You know the Scarface scene where he says, "Say good night to the bad guy. Never gonna see a bad guy like this again." And he start, he, he starts to sort of address the people in the room, and what he's saying is, is you've not got the guts to be who you wanna be.

Chris Williamson 28:06 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 28:07 And the more I reflect on that sort of scene and the more I take acting serious and dialogue, what he's basically saying there is that, like, all of you are savages, man. It's human nature. But you've learned to hide yourself.

Chris Williamson 28:22 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 28:22 You've learned to fit into society. When there was a time on the planet when, like, all the laws and rules and regulations weren't in place, and that's when you've seen what m- what man is really like. If you look at a lot of the wars where people are from one side of the world and they go to another side of the world, they attack everybody there. They steal everything from that land. You know, this is what human nature really sort of looks like. So I guess to answer your question, what I'm saying is, sometimes violence, dysfunction, sort of chaos is, is are people being themselves. Uh, are people living the most honest version-

Chris Williamson 29:13 Mm. Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 29:13 ... of their existence? You know, not everybody is a good person.

Chris Williamson 29:18 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 29:18 Not everybody's learned restraint. So that doesn't mean that the, the darkness doesn't exist, you know? It's sort of a part of the, the polarity of life, the, the bigger picture of, of what's going on.

Chris Williamson 29:33 Isn't it interesting that, like, as a civilized society, a big part of the game is people being noble, calm, uh, socially aware humans-

Bugzy Malone 29:52 Sophisticated savages.

Chris Williamson 29:53 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 29:53 That's what-

Chris Williamson 29:54 And keeping themselves, keeping their truth hidden. We would sooner somebody lie and be domesticated than be honest and dangerous. That's kind of how society's held together. "Hey, you m- behave yourself. You may have to..." This is, there is a type of decorum and behavior that's mostly acceptable here. Uh, but yeah, maybe that's part of the reason that, um, mafia boss stories and, and true crime killers and, and, uh, heroes are both on the good side and the bad side. What's so alluring about them is that it appears to be someone who is being themselves, unashamedly being themselves, for better and for worse

Bugzy Malone 30:31 We're, we're taught that as kids, right? If you're three years old and a, a kid gets on your nerves and you slap him in his face, you get told off by an adult, "Don't do that. That's outside of the norm. That's outside of what's accepted."

Chris Williamson 30:45 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 30:45 And you're quite quickly put into line. I think what's interesting, to go back to your question before about my sort of childhood or my job description now, is that, like, I've experienced lots of freedom, man. [chuckles] I've been outside of the curriculum system at a point when everybody else was taking exams.

Chris Williamson 31:10 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 31:11 I've been outside of work at the early phases of people getting their first job and doing the first couple of years, and it creates a freedom in your mind that is ... can be drummed out of a person when you're told about all these rules and regulations. Now, if, if with discipline you learn sort of self-restraint and you become a good person off your own back, you develop your own morals and principles, what you've got that other people don't have is a sort of a freedom of thought. They've been within the curriculum system and within fitting into society in order to get a job and, you know, they've restrained themselves.

Chris Williamson 31:57 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 31:59 I find that tough about the industry. You know, I, I, I really ... I'm really sort of from a place where the, the liars are lying from their asses. These are some of the most talented liars on the planet, some of the most charismatic and sort of fluid thieves-

Chris Williamson 32:21 Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 32:21 ... on the planet.

Chris Williamson 32:22 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 32:22 So when you turn up to me from a, a record label, you know, and you went to school and you behaved yourself, you might have done some drugs when you was younger or whatever, but you've been a good person, and you went to university and you've climbed the ladder, and you've found yourself in, in this job description that means you wanna sort of exploit-

Chris Williamson 32:45 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 32:46 ... someone for their artistic creations and strike a deal with them, your lies stand out to me as, like, robotic, uncharismatic. You know, you, you w- you wanna meet a Scouser [chuckles] and see the way that they can steal or sell something.

Chris Williamson 33:05 Unsophisticated deception.

Bugzy Malone 33:07 Yeah, you know, you get to these sort of corporate liars and, um, and I, I struggle with it 'cause I can sort of see it coming a mile off. And for them, they've compartmentalized it because it's their, it's their job.

Chris Williamson 33:23 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 33:24 And what they're thinking is, "Yeah, but outside of my job, I'm actually a really nice person. Like, when I go home w- with my family and friends, like I'm, I'm honest, I'm cool."

Chris Williamson 33:34 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 33:35 But what you've done is you've accepted a job description that means that you're putting a smile on, trying to take more off the table than you're putting on, and for me, that doesn't sit well. You know? And, and I think that's why being independent, staying independent-

Chris Williamson 33:52 Mm

Bugzy Malone 33:52 ... um, and sort of climbing the ladder has, has been my path.

Chris Williamson 33:56 What does ignore discreditation mean?

Bugzy Malone 34:00 Yeah, so it is like, um, in that particular instance, I'm talking about the fact that when you get into the underbelly, like there's certain things you have to get under your belt to be deemed as credible. You know? You're a... Again, if we use the, the Harry Potter analogy, you're, you're a credible wizard. Um, when you then transition over to being completely legitimate and having morals and principles, them, them people that have sort of stayed in the darkness will, will sort of try and discredit-

Chris Williamson 34:47 Mm

Bugzy Malone 34:47 ... your, the realism of, of your story or who you say you are or what it is that you say that you've lived through. Y- you're, you're no, you're no longer a part of this. I just don't believe in it, you know? I, I ... And I think, by the way, I think, I think that's, can happen to anybody. I'm sure that you getting to where you've got to in life has came with many a person trying to just discredit you for what you are, who you are, what you've become through all the challenges that you've endured, you know, and just try and take away from all of that as if what's happening here is luck. So it, it's not e- I was using it in, in its particular, but it's not particular. I think it's just the mindset of the sort of victimhood person-

Chris Williamson 35:42 Mm

Bugzy Malone 35:42 ... towards a person that is, no longer identifies with being a victim. I think they'll discredit you, and, and I think the psychology behind that is how, how have they done it? Why has it happened for him?

Chris Williamson 35:57 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 35:57 Why has Chris's podcast blown up? Right? And because they can't justify that in their head, they'll just discredit everything you've ever done.

Chris Williamson 36:07 Well, it closes the gap. You know, anyone that makes progress throws into sharp contrast the lack of progress by the people around them.

Bugzy Malone 36:17 For sure.

Chris Williamson 36:18 And that's uncomfortable.

Bugzy Malone 36:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:20 There's, uh, the- A, a bunch of sort of male subcultures on the internet that don't like the word ascending. So, uh, if you're struggling to get a girl and somebody in this community manages to not even get a relationship or get a kiss or whatever, even if a, the barista at Starbucks that her eyes linger a little bit longer on them than they think they should do, maybe she might be a little bit interested, that's seen as kind of being persona non grata inside of the community. And the reason is that if you ascend, if you become a, a, a person who's a fake cel as opposed to an incel, so incel, involuntary celibate, fake cel, you weren't one of us anyway. What it means is if this person is able to be very close to me in terms of construction and worries and concerns and maybe, uh, disfigurement or height or charisma-

Bugzy Malone 37:15 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 37:15 ... or setbacks or, uh, financial status or whatever it might be, but is able to get to a place that at one point in the past I wanted to but have since given up on-

Bugzy Malone 37:26 Mm

Chris Williamson 37:26 ... that now still leaves the doorway open for hope and for aspiration.

Bugzy Malone 37:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:32 And that means that if I'm not getting there, that might be on my shoulders.

Bugzy Malone 37:37 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:37 And I think that that microcosm is what happens broadly when anyone that comes from an area where lots of people would love to get out of it to ascend in one form or another, maybe it's a dysfunctional northern town in the UK, maybe it's a, uh, sports team that lots of people had the opportunity to get started in, but if one person that you used to play football with goes on to become a pro, "Ah, well, you know, his parents had more money than mine," or, "He, you know, he, he, the coach liked him more than they did me," or, "He was a suck-up, he was always being a suck-" Whatever. The ability to try and discredit the legitimacy of someone's progress reduces the distance between the person who didn't make it and the person that did-

Bugzy Malone 38:18 Mm

Chris Williamson 38:18 ... by saying that it was unfair or they cheated, they sold out, they aren't that talented, whatever, they got lucky. And, uh, as opposed to going, "Fuck, what, what should I learn? How can I try and deconstruct the path that was taken there?" And yeah, for sure, like lots of people manage to make it through fortune and serendipity and, uh, uh, unfairness or like nepotism or favors. All of that stuff happens, but I think far less than people actually think.

Bugzy Malone 38:52 Yeah. I think my career's allowed me to sort of heal publicly and talk about some of the things that, that I've been sort of learning on my journey, sort of share it with people.

Chris Williamson 39:05 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 39:05 And so I try and g- I try and take things down to the essence, and I think the word there is accountability, ruthless accountability.

Chris Williamson 39:14 Yes.

Bugzy Malone 39:14 And I think when a person struggles to be accountable, that's what it looks like, you know? And so I'm almost tricking the audience in that a guy listening to me might be 13 years old and he's not really that interested in healing. He actually doesn't know how broken he's gonna be-

Chris Williamson 39:32 Mm

Bugzy Malone 39:33 ... later on down the line when trauma sort of sets in and takes a hold. Um, but just the sort of phrase to be inspired. If you sort of take that on and take it seriously, it will change your outlook on the guy that became a professional footballer.

Chris Williamson 39:51 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 39:51 And you'll admit to yourself, "Do you know what? When he was trying, I wasn't. When he was doing the runs, when he was doing the extra stretching, when he was watching and studying the game, I w- I wasn't even interested. I was chilling, and that's why he's a professional footballer and I'm on the streets chilling with my mates." At least then you get the opportunity to pick somewhere else and go again, you know? And, and that's what accountability will do. It will tell you the truth, you know? And that's what I'm interested in, and that's why

Bugzy Malone 40:22 rap music as a job description is tough-

Chris Williamson 40:24 Mm

Bugzy Malone 40:25 ... because for you to tell the truth about your life experience pisses a lot of people off, man.

Chris Williamson 40:32 Why?

Bugzy Malone 40:33 Because you sort of can't help but tell parts of their story that they don't want light shining on, you know? And you can be as respectful as you, as you want, try to be as respectful as you want, or you can be as brash as you want, but you will end up telling other people's stories. I think Martin Scorsese talk- talks about that in the films that he makes, and a lot of his inspiration comes from early, might be New York sort of mob culture and, and he said a lot of people was upset with him because naturally his inspiration was the things he really seen.

Chris Williamson 41:13 Uh-huh.

Bugzy Malone 41:14 Right? But what to us is Robert De Niro having an argument in the street, in his world is, is some real person somewhere that's like, "Martin, I know you. Don't be telling my story to the world." You know? And I'm, I'm sure it's the same for a Guy Ritchie-

Chris Williamson 41:32 Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 41:32 ... a Tarantino. These artists and storytellers, you're ... The best, the best stories are true, you know? And real and honest.

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Chris Williamson 42:58 You used the word vulnerability earlier on.

Bugzy Malone 43:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:02 What's your relationship like with vulnerability?

Bugzy Malone 43:06 A heavy one because it's something that you're always... [clears throat] Vulnerability is like a guy that's stood there with his fists up ready to throw punches at you, and you just, you're nervous. You don't wanna go anywhere near this guy. He looks big and strong. [laughs] You can tell it's gonna hurt, and, and it's your job to get closer and closer and eventually go and have the fight, go and face it head-on, you know? And it's just something that as bravery sort of sets in, courage, [sighs] in, in my instance, a hopelessness. You, you sort of hit rock bottom. You sort of realize that you're not as cool as you thought you were.

Chris Williamson 43:56 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 43:57 And, and you, you ain't got nowhere to run and nowhere to hide. You're too tired to run from him, so you just get into the fight, and you just stand in the, in the face of the truth. Um, and in order to do that, you, you have to be vulnerable. You have to be open to embarrassment. Um, and yeah, so that, that's been my, my experience. And I, and I think with making this album, I've, um, I've really had to go there, man. And I think in, in going there, you see yourself in a, in a way that, um, might not be as glamorous as you'd like for it to be.

Chris Williamson 44:41 What did you learn?

Bugzy Malone 44:45 That I'm just a human being, man. I think I thought ... I think, I think to be successful early doors, um, you think a lot of yourself 'cause you're just trying to get your head around, like, how did that happen, you know? You know. And you think more of yourself than you actually are, and then there comes a point where you see yourself for what you actually are.

Chris Williamson 45:16 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 45:17 And you're like, "Oh," you know? So I, yeah, I guess I learned that, um, the work paid off. The consistency paid off. The standing back up after getting knocked down paid off, but I'm nobody special. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not above people because my results have came in sooner than theirs, you know?

Chris Williamson 45:40 Was there a moment or formative experience that was the beginning of that honesty, truthfulness, self-reflection, vulnerability, like, inflection point? Was there something that sort of spurred that on, or did it accumulate over time?

Bugzy Malone 45:57 Just, just the, um, the, the, the solitude of walking the path. While I was making the album, we was using the analogy of the tunnel, and what we was ba- what I was basically saying in the studio is that, like, success, the place that you see yourself getting to, there's like a tunnel between you and that place, and you're in your starting point, dysfunction, whatever it is for you as an individual. And then there's this tunnel, you think, "Yeah, I'm, I'm brave enough to take that." You'll run into this tunnel. Everybody else stays behind 'cause they think it's dark. "I'm not going in there." There's a point halfway through the tunnel where you're being ridiculed, by the way, by the people that didn't go in. They weren't brave enough to go into the tunnel, but they're shouting and calling you names. They're trying to scare you out of it. And there's a point where you sort of look back, and you d- you can no longer see the light at the end of the tunnel that way, but now you can't see the light at the end of the tunnel that way. And then you step on the, on the bones and the remains of the people that failed before you in the tunnel. You start to realize you're in sort of dark territory, and it, and it might not happen. And at that point, what do you do? Do you freeze and tr- and try and go backwards, or do you keep a steady nerve and, and keep marching forwards, which is all that you can do, you know, until eventually you can see light at the end of the tunnel, and eventually you get to your destination. And th- that tunnel is the reason, that is the difference between individuals like yourself that get it over the line and individuals that stay at the beginning of the tunnel, shouting in and ridiculing you, hoping that you fall, hoping that you, you're not brave enough to keep walking forward. Now, I use that analogy to sort of talk about the isolation-

Chris Williamson 47:58 Mm

Bugzy Malone 47:58 ... and the solitude that happens in the tunnel because you, you lose a world that you're familiar with. You lose a type of an individual that you're familiar with, you understand, you relate to. And there's a long period between going from where you were to where it is that you're gonna go, that you'll be isolated and in, and in solitude. And I think that, for me, was the sort of pivotal point where I was like, "Oh, I have to have this fight. I have to face All of my insecurities and all of my fears head on, you know? And I think that unlocks a version of you that people can no longer pull down.

Chris Williamson 48:41 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 48:42 You know?

Chris Williamson 48:42 There's a line from Bedros Keuilian. He says, "Your haters are out there holding their breath, waiting for you to fail. Make sure they suffocate."

Bugzy Malone 48:52 Ah, there you go. They have no choice other than to suffocate because... Yeah. And, and when I, when I talk about the brutal honesty-

Chris Williamson 49:05 Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 49:05 ... at the bottom, at the bottom, I've met some of the most honest people I've, I've ever met, and then you get into the corporate world, and you meet a guy in a suit, and you think, "This is it."

Chris Williamson 49:16 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 49:16 I'm around some affluent people now, like-

Chris Williamson 49:19 High integrity

Bugzy Malone 49:20 ... high integrity, and it's just not the way it is.

Chris Williamson 49:22 [laughing] Just villains with slightly nicer suits.

Bugzy Malone 49:26 Yeah, man. They've learned to hide themselves, man.

Chris Williamson 49:28 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 49:28 You know?

Chris Williamson 49:29 Yeah. It's interesting. It's really interesting. I, I know exactly what you mean. There's, there's something more kind of noble about the, "Yeah, I'm the bad guy. I'm dressed in black. I've got a balaclava in my pocket," as opposed to the dude that's got a Patek Philippe on and is smiling at you-

Bugzy Malone 49:48 Yeah

Chris Williamson 49:48 ... as he tries to get you to sign this particular contract.

Bugzy Malone 49:50 There you go. There you go. And, and, and that being said, it means I am educated, and the reason that I talk like that is because you sort of come from the bottom, and you don't feel like you belong when you're in a room full of people that went to university. Wow, what's that like?

Chris Williamson 50:10 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 50:10 Right? But it's like, actually, my education's the real one 'cause we're all in the same world, right? And then you start understanding that actually I'm ahead. My intuition's much stronger than yours. My sense of reality is much stronger than yours, you know? And, and that being said, that's, that's what I'm trying to do through music. I'm sure I'll go over into acting and sort of give an account of myself, but through music, I try and give an account of myself that makes people understand their own strength, their own power.

Chris Williamson 50:44 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 50:45 You know? That, that just because somebody may have started in a, in a position where it was better than the position you started in, it doesn't mean anything, man. You've been given the challenges that you need to take you to... That's quite profound, actually. Last time I was on your show, I was talking about, like, the law of attraction.

Chris Williamson 51:07 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 51:08 My opinion on that has, has changed slightly.

Chris Williamson 51:10 Okay. Tell me about the law of attraction.

Bugzy Malone 51:11 The more that my, the more that my faith strengthens, the more, the more I have an understanding of God, the more I sort of feel as if we're sort of co-creators in that you will see the way that your life's gonna go. I'm gonna do a podcast. I'm gonna do these shows. I'm gonna live in this kind of a house. I think you're then given the challenges in order to make you that kind of a person, a person that can not only attain them things but maintain them things.

Chris Williamson 51:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 51:45 That's what the solitude's for. That's what the hardship's for. That's what the stress is for. It's building a, a strength and a resilience that means that not only will you get that house that you wanna live in, you'll be able to maintain it. Light work.

Chris Williamson 51:58 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 51:58 You know? So yeah, that's, yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:01 What's your insight around dark forces as you are able to make a more positive change in the world? Uh, dark influence realizing that the impact is so positive that they need to put increasingly difficult challenges in your way. We talked about this last time, but I find it really interesting. Are you thinking this is devil, bad energy, karmic retribution? How do you see this happening?

Bugzy Malone 52:33 Yeah. I think you've got to, um, in, with- within the, within the album, I play with biblical framework, right? Just because if you look at some of these cathedrals, men were building them sometimes for 300 years, and as you know, a man will live for 80 years. He has to pass on the assignment. So there's something in religion to be taken seriously. However, I sort of look at, let's say if we look at a different culture and a different religion, and you look at a guy, and you look at the, the grandparent of this guy, his grandmother, and she's a really nice person. She's helped bring the kids up. Just because she's of a different religion to another person, I'm not sure that means that she's not in contact with God. So I, I, I sort of take a step back from being sort of particular in my thinking towards religion and-

Chris Williamson 53:27 Mm

Bugzy Malone 53:27 ... the devil, and I'm really down here living it.

Chris Williamson 53:31 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 53:31 Which sort of goes back to what you were saying before about when you're living it, it's hard to a- apply everything-

Chris Williamson 53:40 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 53:41 ... because it's all going on, you know? So I think you can get as deep into a sort of biblical framework or sort of, um, spiritual thinking as you want, but we're here in the physical living it, and you've gotta sort of, um, you've gotta sort of wrap your mind around it, and I think from this conversation, you can see that analogies and stuff has, has been the way I've learned.

Chris Williamson 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:09 Do you think pain is the best teacher, or is it the loudest teacher?

Bugzy Malone 54:17 Well, I mean, if you, if y- [chuckles] You disrespect a man on a cold night, and he punches you in your face, you'll, you'll quite quickly learn that you've done something wrong in that situation. You'll, you'll be in that situation again in front of a guy that looks big and strong, and you will think the next time you, you address that person, "How am I gonna conduct myself when I say something here?" Because I wouldn't like to get a tooth punched out on a, on a cold night. So I just think it's the m- I think it's, I think it's shocking, I think, as a human being to have a nervous system. It's hard not to be influenced by pain, and I think, I think these are the ways that God teaches you.

Chris Williamson 55:03 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 55:04 I think, I think pain's a big part of that. So I think it's one of the, one of the most sort of impactful teachers.

Chris Williamson 55:13 How do you handle fear? What's your relationship like with fear?

Bugzy Malone 55:17 Like everybody else. Like everybody else, man. Sometimes fear wins. But what I've realized about fear winning is you sort of run and hide, right? And a pivotal point in my life where I could give you an example of, of my relationship to fear is, and I may have touched on it with you, but I g- I, I get stabbed off a guy. No? I'm 11 years old. I go onto a- an estate to see some friends that asked me to come out, and, um, [chuckles] and some guy's sort of starting a problem with me, and he ends up stabbing me. And what happened in ... I've touched on this before, but I've not gone into this particular point. And what sort of happened is y- I, I went home. I hid in the trousers from my m- my mom. I got stabbed in my leg. And-

Chris Williamson 56:16 What by? What was it?

Bugzy Malone 56:17 It was a screwdriver.

Chris Williamson 56:18 Okay.

Bugzy Malone 56:19 And he opened me up. Yeah, no. So there was a lot of blood and the holes in these pants. Um, and after that I was afraid. The six weeks holidays came up where everybody goes out to play with their mates, and I wanted to stay in, right? And there was just sort of a three-year period where that situation was in the back of my mind. The fear of that situation, the pain that I felt, the embarrassment in front of these people that invited me out. Some of them was girls.

Chris Williamson 56:53 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 56:53 They picked my bike up. They smashed my bike. I was r- I was running from all of them feelings to a point where I went into a sort of a, a really dark place where I was experiencing suicidal thoughts. I made a couple of attempts, but was too young and too cowardly to really sort of get that over the line. And, and at that point is when I realized I had to face it, and I went on to have that guy a, a fair fight on his estate. Um, and I, and I won that fight, and that was ... Th- that for me was ... gave me an understanding of fear. And what it made me realize is you can hide for as long as you want, but at some point you've, you've gotta come out of the house. Some point you've gotta face whatever it is that's, that you find scary, and again, have that fight. So that's my relationship to fear. Sometimes it still wins.

Chris Williamson 57:50 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 57:50 Right? Sometimes I'm just not ready to have that particular fight. Um, but then a lot of the times now I just go and get it done. Within reason as well. There's, there's some ... There's, there's some fights that the time's not now.

Chris Williamson 58:08 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 58:09 Some, some fights can wait. Um, and then some fights are imminent, and you just go and get it done.

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Chris Williamson 59:15 I've heard you say progress is irreversible.

Bugzy Malone 59:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:18 The universe will pay you back for all of your hard work. Don't be afraid to work hard.

Bugzy Malone 59:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:23 What does that mean to you?

Bugzy Malone 59:27 Yeah. I think ... So you've just been doing a, a tour, right? You'll, you'll have made progress on some of them nights. The, y- the ... It's the same as a seed being planted, and you don't see the first bit of the seed growing-

Chris Williamson 59:44 Mm

Bugzy Malone 59:44 ... because we're outside of the soil looking at the ground. But it doesn't mean that it's not, it's not progressing. The seed has started to sprout. It's started to grow. You know? Eventually it'll be a big, beautiful tree or whatever it's gonna become. Uh, but you, you must believe in the fact that progress was being made under the ground.

Chris Williamson 1:00:05 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:00:05 And they're some of the toughest nights because you might be trying to become somebody in your life and, like, nothing's happening. It's like me. Now, for an example, I've made Make It Maintain It. I call it part one because I ... eventually I'll make a part two. But by the time I m- make part two, I'm not interested in being a rapper no more. I'm not, I'm not trying to sell albums. Even with this album, I've not promoted it much.

Chris Williamson 1:00:31 Yeah, so this is ... For the people listening, this is the day before the album drops. Uh, there's been one- Pre-release song one, two?

Bugzy Malone 1:00:43 A couple.

Chris Williamson 1:00:43 Yeah. Uh, [clears throat] doing this podcast today, I know why you're here in London. You're busy-

Bugzy Malone 1:00:50 Yeah

Chris Williamson 1:00:50 ... doing a big project-

Bugzy Malone 1:00:51 Yeah

Chris Williamson 1:00:51 ... that isn't the album, which comes out tomorrow.

Bugzy Malone 1:00:54 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:54 And you're spending a few hours today, and then we're doing dinner later on. Like, I mean, it's, it's something that's obviously very meaningful to you, and yet you're getting on with life outside of it, too. It's already transcending.

Bugzy Malone 1:01:09 Yeah. Yeah. And, and I'm interested in, in diversifying. So the project there that you're talking about, they actually announced that the other day.

Chris Williamson 1:01:18 Did they?

Bugzy Malone 1:01:19 So we can touch on it, which is-

Chris Williamson 1:01:21 Tell me.

Bugzy Malone 1:01:22 Yeah, it's the, The Gentlemen series three with Guy Ritchie, um, which is a, just an exciting prospect for me. Uh, being that Guy Ritchie films prior to me being in the media were films that really sort of grabbed my attention. His style of directing really grabbed my attention. I look at rap music as a young man's sport. Not to say that I'm not a young man now, but rap music is sort of about the come up and the tr- the transcendence of dysfunction.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:01:57 Anything after that, you can hang about too long. And I'm sort of looking at my skill set, and I'm like, the, I've got transferable skills that will apply to different worlds. Acting, to me, looks like a world I'm interested in, in going over into.

Chris Williamson 1:02:11 You will be the only actor from The Gentlemen movie in The Gentlemen series. Is that right?

Bugzy Malone 1:02:19 Uh, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:21 That's crazy.

Bugzy Malone 1:02:23 Yeah. All right. What a privilege.

Chris Williamson 1:02:26 I mean, fuck me, like, Guy Ritchie is the most on fire man in the world at the moment. Like, just out of this world good. And the most recent Gentlemen series is like, I'm seeing guys dressing like Theo James.

Bugzy Malone 1:02:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:44 Like, people deciding, "Oh, this is going to be my expression of myself." It's an entire new subculture, I think, and it's crossed across into America as well.

Bugzy Malone 1:02:54 Yeah. I, I'd, I'd sort of... I have not even said this to Guy, but I'd sort of say that Guy Ritchie's time is, is coming. I don't even think we've seen his best work.

Chris Williamson 1:03:08 Which is crackers to say, given that when was, like, Lock, Stock and those movies, 25 years old? At least 20 years old, right?

Bugzy Malone 1:03:19 Yeah. I mean, look, I'm speaking out of school because, again, they're not conversations that I've had with Guy, but in my early sort of career in music, there's a freedom in, in your first releases. You're not really a part of the industry. You know, rigidity is not setting in that, like, loads of responsibility comes with it.

Chris Williamson 1:03:42 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:03:42 Fame might come with it. There's just things that happen that can impact, um, the type of work that you make. And in my experience, you end up catering to the audience at some points. That never works.

Chris Williamson 1:03:57 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:03:58 You know, you end up thinking you're smarter than you actually are at some points. That never works. And you end up making some work that's not a true representat- It's, it's still solid work, but it's not a true sort of representation of the, the artist that you actually are. Um, so in the, my short experience of, of being in and amongst sort of Guy Ritchie's atmosphere, I think he, I think he gets better. Yeah, I don't, I don't think he's peaked

Bugzy Malone 1:04:30 yet.

Chris Williamson 1:04:30 There's a line that I had to write down from season two of The Gentlemen. I think it's, uh, Theo's character when he's ill, when he's banged up.

Bugzy Malone 1:04:41 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:41 When he's sick and he's, he's been in that fight, and he says, "It's not until you leave yourself behind that you can experience who you truly are."

Bugzy Malone 1:04:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:50 And I thought that was so lovely, and I wonder whether there's something similar with what you're talking about here, that you start off, "I, I have something to say, and it's true, but it's unrefined. It's, like, rough," right? "So I have a lot of [clears throat] raw material to work with, but I don't maybe have the experience that allows it to fully flourish." And then after a little bit of time, you gain some experience, but you gain some pressure and some awareness and some notoriety and some expectations. And people want you to do these things, and you've got a great first project. Like, "Let's see if you can run it back again and again and again." And then maybe you go off track a little bit with that, and then, "Oh, okay, well, I, I tried to chase success by giving people what I thought that they wanted."

Bugzy Malone 1:05:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:33 "That's not fulfilled me in the way that the original one did, but now I've got the experience to be able to make something more grand, more beautiful, truer to what it is. But I've got all of these other things pulling me in different directions too, so I'm seduced. There's sort of this eroticism of, of, of attention that comes from the people around me and, and, and, and the world and the recognition. Okay, so I need to rid myself of that. I need to keep the experience. I need to stay tapped into the thing that I had in the very beginning." And then finally, if you can weave through this maze with seductresses and temptresses and sirens all over the place-

Bugzy Malone 1:06:07 Mm

Chris Williamson 1:06:07 ... finally you get to come out the other side and you go, "Wow, I have all the experience. I'm still emotionally, existentially connected to sort of what that root is. And now I've rid myself, all the barnacles have been culled off the bottom of the ship-

Bugzy Malone 1:06:22 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 1:06:22 ... so that I can actually finally get there." And I think that's, that's hopefully what mastery looks like. You know, this sort of ever-increasing refinement of getting better and better and better at your art.

Bugzy Malone 1:06:36 The journey of greatness, man.

Chris Williamson 1:06:38 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:06:38 That, that was a far more articulate way-

Chris Williamson 1:06:40 [laughs]

Bugzy Malone 1:06:42 ... of, of saying what I was just saying about Guy Ritchie.

Chris Williamson 1:06:45 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:06:45 You know?

Chris Williamson 1:06:46 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:06:46 You, you witness somebody's journey. There's lots of greatness on the way Um, but then eventually the, the, the work's sort of complete and, and, and yeah, that's what you're left with, a m- a master of their craft. And I just don't think there's many of them in this day and age, man. You know? If you, if you go back as early as, like, Da Vinci in the, in the ... I've got a track called Da Vinci on the album.

Chris Williamson 1:07:09 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:07:10 And in the beginning I say, "In the Mona Lisa, there's hundreds of layers of paint. Call this Da Vinci 'cause there's hundreds of layers of paint." And when I was ... I would sort of try and study guys like Da Vinci. This is where I'm probably quite unusual, because there was a-

Chris Williamson 1:07:27 But you texted me. At the start of this year, I did a, an episode with a guy who broke down the life of Da Vinci, how to think like Da Vinci.

Bugzy Malone 1:07:35 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:35 And I was going back through our messages earlier on today, and you'd sent me a text about that, that particular episode.

Bugzy Malone 1:07:41 Bigging you up.

Chris Williamson 1:07:42 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:07:42 It's a big episode. And so now we're getting to a, a probably a version of me that I've not probably even spoke about much. Um, and there was j- there was a point ... When, when, when I'm 16, I'm sat in jail in solitary confinement, and I have this dream that there's, like, an earthquake or something, and, or the world's coming to an end, and everybody's escaping, but I'm stuck in this room. I'm locked in this room, and nobody's gonna come and let me out, and the whole world's falling down outside. And in that moment, as a 16-year-old guy, people that you've came up in school with or whatever are sort of getting their GCSEs.

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:08:21 And I remember being, like, not so much envious, but aware of the fact that, like, my household was falling to bits. There's no way I could have focused and got my education. Now, to go back to the victimhood narrative and the accountability that we spoke about before, my approach to that was, "I'm gonna go and self-educate." So I can only really educate on things I'm interested in.

Chris Williamson 1:08:50 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:08:50 So I try and, yeah, I try and find ... I c- I mean, I can educate myself in areas. A- a- again, I was talking about ADHD not long ago, talking about I've got ADHD or ADD and whatever, and the more that I take accountability and strengthen up, the more I sort of realize, like, do you know what? I can learn t- the things I'm not interested in. It just takes more of my energy.

Chris Williamson 1:09:10 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:09:11 I'm bored, I'm yawning, but I get through it. I will build the stamina to get through it, and that's where I've sort of got to now, right? However, Renaissance art and things like that are things that I'm just naturally interested in. So-

Chris Williamson 1:09:24 Was it you were telling me ... Did you say that you got into learning about, is it crests?

Bugzy Malone 1:09:29 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 1:09:30 Like, how the, the c- a coat of arms is constructed 'cause you needed it for your house? Am I making this up?

Bugzy Malone 1:09:36 Yeah. No, no, no.

Chris Williamson 1:09:37 What's it called? What's the name for it?

Bugzy Malone 1:09:39 Yeah, coat of arms, basically. What would, what would happen is in the early days ... I, and I guess that's attached to my interest in history.

Chris Williamson 1:09:46 Hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:09:47 Right? Because when I'm, when I'm sort of looking around at the system that's in place, I'm like, "Let me strip this back, and let me go to the beginning prior to the system and the types of people that put systems like this in place-

Chris Williamson 1:09:59 Mm

Bugzy Malone 1:09:59 ... so I can have an understanding of what I'm looking at when I'm walking through this corporate world, what I need to take serious and what's not that interesting." And when you get back to the sort of early days, the primeval days, what would happen is lots of wars would be kicking off in them days, and you would have, uh, if you was sort of associated with royalty, family of the king or, you know, attached to royalty, you would have a c- a coat of arms that would have sort of a repres- a representation of, of how that king came up. And that, it, I dunno, it just fascinated me in the fact that some of these kings were just men that was able to take power by force.

Chris Williamson 1:10:41 Hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:10:42 And then you gotta think, who is that individual? Well, that's, that's the essence of what a king is. 'Cause when you get to guys like Henry VIII when he was, like, educated and flipping bit spoiled and chopping his wife's head off when they'd annoy him, he really, he doesn't represent what an actual king is. A king is a, is a man that's took power by force. Uh, he's made it, and he's maintained it, and that's the essence of, of what I'm kinda talking about. I'm talking about the fact that any man can be a king, and this doesn't mean that you're gonna rule the land, you're gonna be the king of the place that you live, but you'll be the king of your own kingdom.

Chris Williamson 1:11:20 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:11:20 And that's just what I got interested in. Anyway, so that's the nature of me getting interested in the coat of arms. What would happen is be a big battle, and, um, you might have had your ass whooped. All you guys are dead, and then you bump into, uh, 10 guys from the other side on horses or whatever, and they would see you. Ordinarily, what they might do is just chop your head off, summat to do, torture you, whatever they felt like doing, 'cause there's no laws going on at that point. Um, but if you've got this particular coat of arms on, it's in their best interest to take you back to their king, and they would then, their king would decide what to do. And ordinarily, he might negotiate with, with, with your king and sell you back-

Chris Williamson 1:12:03 Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 1:12:03 ... to that king for a ransom. Anyway, so then they'd make a crest of that, um, coat of arms. I made a fragrance called The House of Vision, and it was a part of designing that fragrance. So I guess I'm, I'm lucky in that I've got job descriptions that allow me to educate myself in places. You know, I'm not just gener- If you put me back in a room with the kids that were A class students that got As in their exams while I was sat in jail-

Chris Williamson 1:12:33 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:12:33 ... I bet now I'm more sophisticated than them in many areas, because that was a generic version of history. I've gone off and got into the nuances, the little details of how things really work and how it's applicable to sort of times now. So, so yeah. And your episode on Da Vinci, again A version of me that people probably don't understand is I, I go away and I, I educate myself more, and I read lots, and I, and I go and open my mind. Because, because of where I've come from, I think there's, there's gonna be people in the underbelly that are coming from real dysfunction that have no one to grab onto and, and look at.

Chris Williamson 1:13:19 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:13:19 I think the more my career grows, the more they'll sort of grab onto me. Um, and by the time I get there, I need to be educated enough to be able to stand on what it is I'm actually saying.

Chris Williamson 1:13:32 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:13:33 Let alone having the type of wife that I'm interested in having, let alone bringing up the types of kids that I'm interested in bringing up. You know? So education in that respect is, is key, I think.

Chris Williamson 1:13:46 There's always another level. There's always another level to keep on educating yourself to, to develop yourself toward. And in some ways that can make people feel a bit despondent because, "Ugh, I'm never done. I'm never finished." But also, if you enjoy what it is that you're learning, if you enjoy the process of growth and improving yourself and impacting the people around you, the people that you haven't even found yet-

Bugzy Malone 1:14:11 Yeah

Chris Williamson 1:14:11 ... the wife that you don't have, the kids that don't exist, the dog that you haven't raised-

Bugzy Malone 1:14:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Chris Williamson 1:14:16 ... the house that you haven't bought, it's an opportunity.

Bugzy Malone 1:14:21 Yeah. And I, and I think that is where maintain it comes into the equation.

Chris Williamson 1:14:25 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:14:27 I think that, um, diet, the anatomy, the way that the body works, how to keep the body strong and functional, the mind, how to keep the mind elasticated and open to learning more.

Chris Williamson 1:14:42 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:14:42 I think, I think these are all things that are necessity. I don't think there's any two ways about it. You, you're either gonna be the type of an old person that's got a walking stick and you're frail, or you're gonna be one of these that we're seeing a lot of in, in the modern day and age, where you're still looking young and feeling fresh and, you know, living your best life. That's what I'm interested in. That's the kind of wealth I'm interested in. I'm content. I've got everything I ever wanted. If I'm smart, there'd be people far richer than me, but if I'm smart, I'll never work again. At that, I'm uninterested, man. What I'm interested in now is enjoying my life, doing the things I enjoy doing, building the family I'd like to build, l- looking after my children, giving them every opportunity to live a solid life, you know? And that's what, that's what maintenance is. You know? It's the ... You take the kingdom by force, and then you maintain the kingdom by ... with discipline and consistency, you know?

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Chris Williamson 1:16:48 Do you think if you stayed in primarily focusing on rap that that would limit you, limit your growth, limit your life?

Bugzy Malone 1:16:57 [chuckles] I've probably been in the rap game longer than you should. And I've been able to do that because my, my story- storytelling ability is, um ... That's a, that's a gift that I've been given. That's, that's one of the gifts that I've got. Um, and, and I remember, I remember being young and, and being in lots of trouble. I was at an old friend's house. We, we was on the computer, the PlayStation, and his mum rushes up the stairs all flustered and worried, and she's like, "Just had the police on the phone." And she's like, "You've got, um, an Osmond warning." And I could be wrong about that word, but I think it's an Osmond warning, and that's when there's intelligence that somebody wants to take your life, and you-

Chris Williamson 1:17:47 About you?

Bugzy Malone 1:17:48 About him.

Chris Williamson 1:17:49 Right.

Bugzy Malone 1:17:50 I had nowhere to live, so I was staying on his sofa. And it, it didn't fluster us. It was o- it was the lifestyle we was living at the time. We thought we was gonna be career criminals, and this was the, our sort of practice stages. This was the same as being a, a young boxer in the gym sparring. [chuckles]

Chris Williamson 1:18:08 How old were you?

Bugzy Malone 1:18:09 Um, for- 14, 15. Um, and at that time of my life, so much chaos was happening on a day-to-day basis that I was sort of ... That's one of the few times that I've questioned God-

Chris Williamson 1:18:26 Hmm

Bugzy Malone 1:18:26 ... and been like, "Why? Why am I having to go through all of this?"

Chris Williamson 1:18:30 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:18:31 And it's not until my career sort of formulates and takes shape that I understand that, like, "Oh, I'm able to be a storyteller in the rap business that's actually got lots to talk about." You know?

Chris Williamson 1:18:46 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:18:46 And it's ... I'm just coming to a stage now where I think the rap game, it goes in stages of you're from a dysfunctional background. You talk about that. "Here's who I am. Here's where I'm from. Here's what it's been like."

Chris Williamson 1:19:00 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:19:00 We relate to that guy. He gets another album out of that if he's clever, then he's got some money, and then he starts talking about the money, the cars, the girls, and what he spent his money on.

Chris Williamson 1:19:12 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:19:14 What I'm talking about in this album is the point that's underdocumented in rap, which is what happens after you've spoke about where you've come from, an audience has connected with you. You've earned some dough, you've spent some money on some fancy things. What next? That's maintain it. It's main- maintenance.

Chris Williamson 1:19:38 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:19:38 We've got that in America.

Chris Williamson 1:19:40 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:19:40 You know, we've got Jay-Z, we've got 50 Cent, we've got ... But if you look at guys like P. Diddy, if you look at the way, you know, 50 Cent conducts himself, there's still some heavy dysfunction going on-

Chris Williamson 1:19:53 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:19:53 ... in the mix of that. And don't get me wrong, America's a big, brash place.

Chris Williamson 1:19:58 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:19:58 So the British rap game is a different game.

Chris Williamson 1:20:00 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:20:00 However-

Chris Williamson 1:20:01 Kanye West is probably another good example

Bugzy Malone 1:20:02 ... good example. Lots of dysfunction there.

Chris Williamson 1:20:05 [chuckles]

Bugzy Malone 1:20:05 Right? And but we're British, so we conduct ourself different.

Chris Williamson 1:20:09 Yep.

Bugzy Malone 1:20:09 So I'm one of the first British rappers, one of the pioneers in that, "Here's what it looks like after that phase."

Chris Williamson 1:20:16 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:20:16 And I d- I, I understand the responsibility of that position, and that's why I take diversifying serious. And a lot of other rappers will be shocked and will find themselves having to follow the blueprint, and I, I just don't say that in an egotistical way. I don't s- I mean it with all due respect. I'm just on my journey. I'm not even interested in being better than anybody else at this point. I'm really just competing with myself. However, rapping is a young man's game, you know? And there comes a point where you must diversify. A lot of boxers don't diversify, a lot of footballers don't diversify, and it all goes wrong. We see them, they've put weight on. They've spent a lot of the money on the, the addictions they've picked up, and they're sad. So therefore, you, you have to take that transition serious. You know? Y- y- you must diversify. And, and in diversifying, you get yourself a, a more adult job description. That's why I'm interested in being an actor.

Chris Williamson 1:21:17 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:21:17 And, um, take into consideration the fact that as a man, it's your job to look after a wife and children, you know? And I, I think I just see people that, uh, that don't take that aspect of, um, participating in a young man's sport serious.

Chris Williamson 1:21:39 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:21:39 They don't take the next phase of their life serious.

Chris Williamson 1:21:42 It's interesting. I've been thinking a good bit about something like mastery with an open heart.

Bugzy Malone 1:21:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:21:52 What drives most people, especially in the beginning, to work hard, to be diligent, to be disciplined, is maybe a chip on their shoulder. It's wanting to prove people wrong.

Bugzy Malone 1:22:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:22:04 It's wanting recognition and validation-

Bugzy Malone 1:22:05 Mm. Mm

Chris Williamson 1:22:05 ... admiration, respect from people that they respect. It's wanting to get money and freedom and independence, to be able to navigate their own sovereignty, to not need permission from anybody.

Bugzy Malone 1:22:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:22:16 There's a lot of fuel in the beginning, and I'm interested how many people are able to continue chasing mastery without relying on the toxic fuel that was there in the beginning.

Bugzy Malone 1:22:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:22:32 What happens when you've spent that fuel tank? Because you can keep using it, but over a long enough time period, it is toxic.

Bugzy Malone 1:22:42 Well, 'cause then you gotta go and produce more of the fuel.

Chris Williamson 1:22:45 100%.

Bugzy Malone 1:22:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:22:45 I have a, a, a ... I know of a, a couple of guys recently who have basically manufactured enemies.

Bugzy Malone 1:22:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:22:54 They've, they've ... Th- this situation, a bunch of situations actually, did not need the level of friction, cantankerousness, uh, divergence, or disagreement. It didn't need that. Either these enemies have been confected, concocted, confabulated out of nowhere purely so that this person has something to push up against.

Bugzy Malone 1:23:22 Yeah. Sophisticated and articulate. I'm g- I've been guilty of that.

Chris Williamson 1:23:29 I'm gonna make an enemy.

Bugzy Malone 1:23:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:23:30 I'm gonna make an enemy to give me more of this fuel that I worry I'm dwindling out of.

Bugzy Malone 1:23:35 I reckon 50 Cent's guilty of that.

Chris Williamson 1:23:37 Who, uh, what, what, wh- which enemies has he done? I don't know the lore.

Bugzy Malone 1:23:41 By the way, but no, by the way, I have, I have no interest in, in sort of speaking on another man's journey. It's just an observation. Um, if I talk about myself, which is all I understand, um, I just see similarities, right, that I can relate to. And what happens in the streets is there's some scary individual that would like to take you off the face of the planet if they could.

Chris Williamson 1:24:06 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:24:06 And it's down to, I don't know, jealousy, hatred, anger, whatever the reason is, but it f- it fires up something in you.

Chris Williamson 1:24:14 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:24:15 That also happens in boxing. When you walk into the boxing gym and the coach says, "I've got you a fight." "Really?" "Yeah. You're gonna be fighting this guy. He's had this many fights," and it's real, and you're gonna be having a fight. That'll have the s- have a similar effect on you. And what it is, is there's, um, there's this sort of final destination in your mind if you're not careful, whereby the worst can occur. Like, you can really ... You can lose, and in losing, you can lose your identity, you can lose your self-respect. There's so much on the line, and it just brings out a new version of yourself. You'll do the extra run.

Chris Williamson 1:24:56 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:24:57 You'll go to bed early reading a book, you know? You'll ... And, and, and I ex- I experienced that in the streets. You have a problem with a scary individual You'll take making some money more serious because you're like, "I can't be out here forever, man."

Chris Williamson 1:25:14 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:25:14 Um, so that being said, I'm guilty of trying to initiate the production of that toxic fuel.

Chris Williamson 1:25:24 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:25:25 Yeah, just because a professional career kicks in in entertainment and some of the lines are blurred.

Chris Williamson 1:25:33 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:25:33 It's like, I'm a rapper. What does that mean exactly? You know? So you gotta create your own framework.

Chris Williamson 1:25:40 You've manufactured enemies and rivalries because-

Bugzy Malone 1:25:43 Well, they're sort of there, right? But they're just not as interesting as they once were.

Chris Williamson 1:25:50 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:25:51 Y- Actually, y- your pride's not on the line. You don't care what they say about you.

Chris Williamson 1:25:56 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:25:57 But you can open that part of your mind and be like, "What did he say?"

Chris Williamson 1:26:00 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:26:01 And that brings out a version of you that you're like, "If I bump into him and he thinks because I'm famous, he's gonna do something to me, and I'm not gonna take self-defense serious," that, you know? And that'll just bring out a version of yourself that, that turns up with a, a solid physique.

Chris Williamson 1:26:18 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:26:19 Turns up focused, has been reading before bed and ... So there was a lot of that in the ... There's a world out there where there's a lot of jealous people, a lot of people that are probably upset with things I've said, things I've done. Um, and there's been versions of events where I've actually looked at that. "Let me see what these people are thinking," and provoked myself.

Chris Williamson 1:26:38 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:26:39 Got myself a little bit nervous, thinking, "Oh, is he out there?"

Chris Williamson 1:26:43 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:26:43 "And he would like a problem with me if he could. All right, for sure." And then you become the version of yourself that is prepared for that challenge.

Chris Williamson 1:26:52 What do you think about that? Because I, I can see both sides of how useful and, and adaptive and functional that could be. In one way, it is free fuel for you to push yourself harder to become better, and in another way, you are manufacturing, like just creating out of thin air, antagonism against the world.

Bugzy Malone 1:27:17 Well, it's, it's energy, essentially. You're farming energy. But it's a crutch also. You're relying on something external to create energy.

Chris Williamson 1:27:27 In the same way as you were saying you want to be able to be the best that you can without people around you bigging you up and telling you that you can be better.

Bugzy Malone 1:27:34 You've gotta go through this season of isolation, man. It's just not spoke about enough.

Chris Williamson 1:27:38 Oh, we're going into winter. That's the winter arc, right?

Bugzy Malone 1:27:41 Yeah, man. And, and have the confidence in yourself that you'll come out the other side, man. And in, and in that, you will let go of all crutches. I don't need some negative individual that would love to have a problem with me because it prospers his life but-

Chris Williamson 1:27:56 Mm

Bugzy Malone 1:27:56 ... hinders mine. It doesn't matter. I don't need the fuel from that to get up and get to the gym-

Chris Williamson 1:28:01 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:28:01 ... and lift heavy, you know? Or go sparring and let it fly, you know? So you, you, you learn to look within and, um, as opposed to take toxic fuel, find the real fuel, the, you know, your essence, and really it comes from a place of love. That's what the real fuel is.

Chris Williamson 1:28:30 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:28:30 Yeah, man. It's love, man. Why am I interested in my purpose? Well, it's because I remember being 12 year old looking at a documentary, When We Were Kings, about Muhammad Ali and George Foreman. They go and fight in, in Zaire. Was c- was it The Rumble in the Jungle? And um, and I was just, I was surrounded by complete dysfunction, and I was desperately looking for sources of inspiration, and that's what that served as in a ma- in a major, major way.

Chris Williamson 1:29:05 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:29:06 You know, there was suicide on my mind at them times. There was ... You know, I was in a dark place, and, um, from a place of love, tapping into that abundant energy source of love.

Chris Williamson 1:29:21 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:29:22 I know that kid's out there, and I know that that kid is taking strength from what I do next. So therefore, that's all the strength I need to maintain it, in that if I fall off, I let that kid down.

Chris Williamson 1:29:40 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:29:40 You know? And I could've saved a life there. And that's ... I, I, I think when you've, you've got a very dysfunctional family, there's this internal battle that sort of goes on where you're like, you gotta let go of people.

Chris Williamson 1:29:54 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:29:54 And you're like, "Am I not loving? Have I, have I gone cold?" There's a song called Prisoner, and I talk about it. I'm saying I'm afraid that I've gone cold, and that's the question I'm sort of asking myself, sort of writing like my diary in, in this particular song. And in asking yourself that question, you have to look at your relationship to human beings in general, because I'm really willing to cut people off, man. Like, if ... Regardless to the title of an individual, to preserve my inner peace, I'll really let go, man. I don't care who you are, what it is. If you're not gonna take accountability and you're gonna lie and be disrespectful or whatever it is, I'm, I'm gonna leave you over there and I'm just gonna keep walking my own journey.

Chris Williamson 1:30:46 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:30:48 When you then look at your relationship to human beings and you meet an individual that is accountable or from a dysfunctional background but is trying, and that's where you see what, what's going on in your heart, and it, it turns out that there's lots of love in my heart.

Chris Williamson 1:31:06 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:31:07 Yeah. And And actually I'm more open than I, than I thought I was. I'm just triggered by people that have the same traits, similar traits to the ones that I was sort of brought up exposed to, and sort of first-hand witnessed the destruction that comes with how them people are acting.

Chris Williamson 1:31:28 You know, do you know why I think that is? Uh, so there's a, a, a type of illness called, uh, CIRS, chronic inflammatory response syndrome.

Bugzy Malone 1:31:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:31:37 And if you live in a house that's got, um, toxins, biotoxins in, like mold and-

Bugzy Malone 1:31:45 Oh, okay

Chris Williamson 1:31:45 ... uh, microbes, your immune system begins to learn that that's a threat.

Bugzy Malone 1:31:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:31:50 It's slowly over time breaking your immune system down, and chronic inflammatory response syndrome means that if you ever get re-exposed to that kind of environment, almost immediately your immune system switches on.

Bugzy Malone 1:32:02 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:32:02 It's like a warning alarm. This is familiar and dangerous.

Bugzy Malone 1:32:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:32:06 And it's an immediate response.

Bugzy Malone 1:32:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:32:08 So if you have CIRS and you walk into a building, even if you've been out of a toxic environment for, uh, 12 months, let's say-

Bugzy Malone 1:32:16 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 1:32:16 ... you walk into a house that's got mold spores in it similar to the ones that you were exposed to in the past, your neck will go red, you'll be inflamed, you'll get a ringing in your ears, you'll get brain fog, you might feel sick, you might... Lots of things happen. Immediately this thing switches on, and I think what's happening there is your body has learned that a very familiar but dangerous kind of pathogen-

Bugzy Malone 1:32:40 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 1:32:40 ... is around.

Bugzy Malone 1:32:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:32:42 And I think that this is somewhat similar to what you're seeing here-

Bugzy Malone 1:32:45 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 1:32:45 ... which is I know that archetype. I know that kind of person. I understand the mentality, the background, the worldview, and there is a psychological immune system that kicks in which goes, "If I spend too much time around this person, I might go back there." I don't think that it's fully conscious, but I certainly see it myself. There are patterns from my childhood, people that I spent time around, um, lessons that I learned or observed, people that I saw and the modes of behavior. I'm like, "That was imprinted so deep into the source code of who I am that I do not want that in my life. I don't want his relationship with gambling. I don't want the way that he cheats on his wife. I don't want his lack of care for his kids. I don't want the fact that he uses alcohol in order to be able to deal with his problems." And any time that I see something that sometimes isn't even that, I, like, incorrectly pattern match in the same way as chronic inflammatory response syndrome. You can go into a building and it's 1/1000 or 1/100 of the dosage that you were exposed to previously, but immediately the immune system switches on because it's looking for this thing that was maybe a killer, that maybe could have taken your life down a path or your immune system or your health down a path that you really didn't want it to go in. And this is kind of the same, which is I see in this person somewhere, or in this relationship or in this dynamic or whatever, I see a world that I really, really don't want to be a part of, and it feels familiar to me in a way where my psychological immune system is kicked on to go, "Get the fuck away from this as quickly as possible."

Bugzy Malone 1:34:28 Interesting point, right? Because there's two versions of events there. Okay? And what you're talking about with the, the inflammatory response is the sort of the body's like airbags, you know, in a, in a car. The car crashes and the airbags come out.

Chris Williamson 1:34:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:34:44 And you're talking about them airbags sort of prematurely-

Chris Williamson 1:34:47 Yes. Yes

Bugzy Malone 1:34:48 ... co- sort of alerting and, and coming out.

Chris Williamson 1:34:50 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:34:52 So in within sort of the healing process, there is a phase where prematurely the airbags come out and it's like, "Oh no." As you become... The more you become a man, the more you, you're making decisions essentially. You're looking at a situation, you're weighing it up for what it is-

Chris Williamson 1:35:12 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:35:12 ... and the impact it can potentially have, and you're initiating healthy boundaries.

Chris Williamson 1:35:20 Yeah. You're not responding, uh, com- uh, impulsively.

Bugzy Malone 1:35:24 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:35:25 Uh, there's a degree of intuition, but it's, uh, cultivated-

Bugzy Malone 1:35:29 So-

Chris Williamson 1:35:30 ... intuition. Refined

Bugzy Malone 1:35:31 ... there you go. Yeah. And, and at that point you're just making decisions-

Chris Williamson 1:35:35 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:35:35 ... as opposed to just being triggered and there's a triggered response.

Chris Williamson 1:35:41 Or as opposed to having permeable boundaries so malleable and floppy that you never actually end up standing up for yourself.

Bugzy Malone 1:35:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:35:48 Or when you were young, being so inexperienced that you weren't able to see the pattern that you should have been aware of. You didn't know what a microbe was, you didn't understand what a moldy house smelt like.

Bugzy Malone 1:35:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:35:59 So you go from ignorance to awareness to reactivity and then finally to discernment maybe. Something like that.

Bugzy Malone 1:36:08 The word would probably be responsibility. You're responsible in the decisions that you make.

Chris Williamson 1:36:12 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:36:13 You can see what it is that you're walking into, and you decide to walk away. You decide to let it go. So like some of them people that, them individuals you spoke about, a gambler or, you know, I've, I've been around guys that cheat on their partners, and you have to make a decision in that, in that moment because there's 80% of that person's character that is up your street. This is my kind of guy.

Chris Williamson 1:36:39 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:36:40 But at the point that he cheats on his partner, it's like, and as a human being you can't be judgmental, right? 'Cause we all come from dysfunction. However, when you're becoming the person that you see yourself being-

Chris Williamson 1:36:55 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:36:56 ... you gotta make decisions, man. And some things you gotta take a step away from. You know? So it's, it's, um, it's honesty really. I think it's authenticity. I think, again, it comes down to love. How am I supposed to look that guy's partner in the eye if I have an understanding that he goes and cheats on his missus?

Chris Williamson 1:37:17 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:37:18 You know? How, how am I supposed to trust what he's saying to me if he goes home and lies to his, to his best friend?

Chris Williamson 1:37:26 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately it's one of the things I don't think people fully realize about gossip that, uh, everyone likes gossip in one form or another.

Bugzy Malone 1:37:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:37:38 Right? Even if you know that you shouldn't, until you realize that you've been seduced by it. You're like, "Ooh, is that some information about something behind the scenes that could be quite interesting or cool or a little bit gos- like venting gossipy?" But one of the things that people who gossip a lot don't realize is that even if the person they're gossiping about doesn't find out-

Bugzy Malone 1:37:58 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 1:37:58 ... the person that they're gossiping to is taught a really interesting lesson-

Bugzy Malone 1:38:03 Oh, they found out

Chris Williamson 1:38:03 ... that you are the sort of person that talks behind people's backs.

Bugzy Malone 1:38:07 Yeah. And then you get the types of people that won't do that for that reason, or you get the types of people that don't do it because it's just against their moral code.

Chris Williamson 1:38:18 Right.

Bugzy Malone 1:38:19 That's, that's, that's who you wanna be. They're the people that are ... They're the people I gravitate towards their morals and their principles. I like being around them people because they're accountable, they're responsible. Now, by the way, I have been an unaccountable and unresponsible individual.

Chris Williamson 1:38:37 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:38:38 And that is the nature of growing up. That's a part of the journey. So I don't sit here as somebody that's like, um, perfect and always been perfect. You know? I, I sit here as somebody on the journey, you know, but, but taking it serious.

Chris Williamson 1:38:53 There's a letter from Sigmund Freud to Carl Jung, letter that he wrote him. One of the lines in it says, "One day, in retrospect, the years of struggle will strike you as most beautiful. The years of struggle will strike you as most beautiful." And I think that it's just such a gorgeous reflection on what most people realize, but only in retrospect. Unfortunately, when you're going through it eating shit, unsure whether or not you're going to be able to get out, tarnished, doubtful, in pity, how can you say that this is beautiful? And yet when you look back, the years of struggle are the ones where you go, "Oh, that was it. That was where I was forging myself."

Bugzy Malone 1:39:42 I think the key is to be present, is to try and see the beauty in the, in the darkness, you know, in the midst of the tunnel, in the midst of the chaos, understanding that the, the, there's beauty within it. And it's a tough place to be. It's a tough place to be.

Chris Williamson 1:40:03 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:40:04 But there does come a point where you've just been through so much that you sort of know now that this is my path, so I might as well accept it, and this, this will pass. You know? I will get through this-

Chris Williamson 1:40:22 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:40:22 ... one way or another. So y- you start to admire the fact that, that is the beauty of life, man. You know? I've had some, I've had some really dark situations, um, and like I said before, the, the, the time when I questioned God, I've had darker situations where I've not questioned God, and I've just understood that, like, this is it. This is how it's supposed to be right now, and I'm sure I'll come back stronger, and I've been right, and I have come back stronger. So yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:41:00 When were you most uncertain?

Bugzy Malone 1:41:04 When are you not uncertain, man? I think in times when I felt the most certain, it's been fabricated. It's because I'm leaning on these crutches, these friends that you're talking about that, like, believe in you more than you do and all that. Like, that'll create a false sense of security. I think the whole way through, there's just moments where you're just like, you know? And I think the most uncertain I've been is when I'm losing trust in my own mind, my own ability to control my impulses, and I'm making decisions that are, they're out of my right mind. It's like I wouldn't do a thing like that, you know? Or I wouldn't become addicted to doing a thing like that. You know? There was a time where earlier in the, in, in, in my life when I was exposed to violence on a quite regular basis and some pretty bad things had happened to me, I was taking, um, um, I, I'm gonna say joy in sort of inflicting pain. And it's just w- with some- being somebody that's interested in fitness, it's just one, one of the vices that sort of fit with me. So I'd have a friend that I'd have trouble with a- an individual, and I'd take it upon myself to rectify this situation.

Chris Williamson 1:42:37 Some retribution.

Bugzy Malone 1:42:38 Yeah, and because I think... And again, like, honestly, brother, like you sort of grow up. My, my, my stepdad beat me up when I was 11, and it had a profound effect on me.

Chris Williamson 1:42:48 One particular time did?

Bugzy Malone 1:42:50 Y- you know. Yeah. Bad. And it has a pr- it has a profound effect that you... It's not until you grow, you become adult and you look back at your life and you're like, "Now I understand why I was interested in just being a nuisance." You know? And it's because that's what you're taught, and you, you know that it hurt.

Chris Williamson 1:43:11 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:43:11 But it also felt embarrassing.

Chris Williamson 1:43:14 How much of it was the pain and how much was the humiliation?

Bugzy Malone 1:43:17 It's part and parcel, right? And you wanna inflict that onto other people. So that feeling that you feel after being physically violated and left on the floor or whatever, when you see somebody else in that situation, you think, "Deal with it. I did."

Chris Williamson 1:43:32 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:43:33 "Don't cry. What are you crying for? I didn't." You know? So there was, there was a, there was a phase in life where, you know ... And all that's part of, part and parcel of thinking you're gonna be a criminal for, for a living. Makes you a handy guy to have around.

Chris Williamson 1:43:51 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:43:51 'Cause it's a, a, a thing that you, um, you're at the time enjoying, and then you sort of tap back into the true version of who you are, and you realize that that's something that life, if I wasn't careful, was gonna do to me. Life was gonna make me that individual.

Chris Williamson 1:44:12 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:44:13 Do you understand? And I had to snap out of that, and I had to realize, "Actually, I'm not like that. I'm a loving, kind, caring, respectful person."

Chris Williamson 1:44:21 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:44:22 That's something I've, I've felt like I had to become in order to keep myself protected in the environment that I was in. This comes back to Make It. Some of these environments that unfortunately having no money will leave you in, you will be exposed to dark things, and you will have to become a version of yourself to deal with them dark things that y- when you mature, you just won't be able to stand by.

Chris Williamson 1:44:52 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:44:52 You know? And if you're not careful, you take it over the top. And I met a lot of them individuals in, in jail, and they've done dark things, and you can see that they're maturing out of that mindset now.

Chris Williamson 1:45:03 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:45:03 But what's done is done, and you've got 14 years in this place. You know? So the, the whole thing is a process of healing, man. Healing, man. And only now are people starting to talk about it. Only now are man- people starting to talk about sort of men addressing their emotions-

Chris Williamson 1:45:23 Mm

Bugzy Malone 1:45:23 ... of what they've been through and I w- I was talking about this from the get-go because my f- my original mixtapes were me sort of quitting boxing, coming to terms with quitting boxing, and coming to terms with being depressed, you know, and, and sad and down. And, and what I started to do was look at everything that I've been through, um, just from a perspective of, do you know, do you know what? That is sad. That happened. It's sad. It's okay to feel sad about it. I don't have to snap and get angry, and just accept and move forward, you know? And, and actually, as I look back through that process, I've, I've built an incredible life for myself, man. Like, I've, I've done really good.

Chris Williamson 1:46:07 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:46:08 Yeah, man. You know? I'm, I'm a young man. I'm, I'm single. I'm in a position where I know I can protect a family. You understand? I know I can pick a country in the world that I wanna live. I can design a house exactly how I would like for it to be, and I can protect a, a wife and children, and it just gives me a security and, and I can look after myself, you know? And it just g- it just gives me ... That is all I think any of us really want, give or take. You know? And, and, and, and, and in that being said, that's what I'm trying to touch on in this album is the, is the getting to that place.

Chris Williamson 1:46:54 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:46:55 I don't think the numbers are important. I think once you're financially secure, financially free. Financially free is the word, freedom. I think once you've got to that point, who cares if that's 100 million, 50 million, or a million, half a million? Whatever makes you free.

Chris Williamson 1:47:13 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:47:14 Once you're there, you're there. You gotta be content with your position. Once you know you can sort of look after a family, m- move on and, and enjoy your life. Maintain it.

Chris Williamson 1:47:24 It's interesting. There's a, a variety of different levels of freedom.

Bugzy Malone 1:47:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:47:30 And one of them is you've heard of fuck you money, right?

Bugzy Malone 1:47:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:47:34 Uh, so fuck you money means maybe you don't need to work for anybody. You don't need to listen to a boss in the same way.

Bugzy Malone 1:47:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:47:41 You are, uh, liberated from having to worry about how much something's going to cost.

Bugzy Malone 1:47:47 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:47:47 That's one type of saying fuck you.

Bugzy Malone 1:47:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:47:48 Another way of saying fuck you is fuck you freedom, and fuck you freedom, maybe you live off the grid, or maybe you're able to move to another country where you can design your lifestyle in a different kind of a way. Uh, maybe you've got your own cows and, and g- sheep and goats and chickens and you're self-sufficient, right? There's a kind of, uh, even the local council, the power grid, sort of you're not even ... You've got solar panels. You're completely prepped and off the grid in that way. But there's a third kind of saying fuck you that I think is much more attainable for a lot of people, and that's a fuck you family.

Bugzy Malone 1:48:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:48:23 And that is no longer needing the validation of anyone.

Bugzy Malone 1:48:29 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:48:29 Like, yeah, maybe you're not reliant on a boss to tell you when to go to work. Maybe you're not reliant on the power grid or the local food supplier to give you whatever. But something that's much more attainable for a lot of people, I think, is to reach escape velocity from being judged or needing the validation of other people by knowing that the people that you care about most think that you kind of can fly, that you can levitate, that you can lift the world up, and even if the rest of the universe is falling down around you, the person sleeping next to you in bed and the two people sleeping 10 feet above you in the same house think that you're a superhero. And I think that that is a kind of liberation that I see a lot of men, when they become fathers, achieving that throws into quite harsh contrast the way that they were trying to gain liberation and freedom and sovereignty and recognition previously. It makes the The games that they were playing, like probably quite shallow and desperate. Look at my need for performance. Like I'm jumping in the air like, "Look at me, look at me. Look over here. Like look at how cool I am and how much I can do." And they didn't know that the right woman and the right kids-

Bugzy Malone 1:49:45 The bigger picture, right?

Chris Williamson 1:49:46 ... is everything. It's all of the fuel that they needed, and I think it probably in a bit of a smoky way makes them look at that version of themselves as like kind of a kid. You were jumping up and down performing for all of these people. It was cool or whatever, but really what you needed was this unit.

Bugzy Malone 1:50:09 So, so I say why not have all three, right? And I, I can only speak from the perspective of, of a, a young man, but without fuck you money, you can't get fuck you freedom, not the real kind. And if you're not careful, the fuck you family will turn around and say fuck you if you ain't got your, yourself in, uh, you know, if you, if you're not functional-

Chris Williamson 1:50:36 Mm-hmm

Bugzy Malone 1:50:36 ... and if you've not got yourself together. So therefore, I guess that is the sort of philosophy I'm talking about. But in order to say fuck you, you need all bases covered, so you're gonna need some money. How much that is, you can figure that out for your particular set of circumstances. Um, the money will buy the fuck you freedom, you know, and also buy the protection of your family, the freedom of you, you being able to sort of connect, build relationship. Um, and then your family won't turn around and say fuck you if you've developed the f- the sort of functionality to, to be a man.

Chris Williamson 1:51:17 So that's the, that's the interesting thing that keeps coming up here, and I think it's because you've spent so much time thinking about the psychology, where you've come from, how the human mind works, what human nature is, that when people talk, especially men, especially young men that are aspirational and have ambitions, when they talk about building a kingdom-

Bugzy Malone 1:51:40 Yeah

Chris Williamson 1:51:40 ... the kingdom that they're talking about a lot of the time is quite shallow.

Bugzy Malone 1:51:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:51:44 I- I- I- I- it's m- uh, materialistic, it's, it's physical, and these things are, as you say, important, and maybe even sort of the bottom of the pyramid of like let's get yourself sorted first. Make sure that you're safe and secure and you've got the surroundings. [sniffs] But the kingdom that I think matters much more is the emotional one.

Bugzy Malone 1:52:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:52:06 It's how much work have you done on yourself? How safe and secure are you as a vessel, not you as a supplier of resources? Yeah, that's important, but I think increasingly to me, I am far more impressed by men who have built a kingdom of psychological security on top of one of financial security. I'd much f- much, much, much rather be friends with somebody who is one one-hundredth as rich and wealthy and famous and statusful, but has got a cathedral of psychological stability than one who is unbelievably acclaimed but just sort of left it there and didn't go any deeper.

Bugzy Malone 1:52:49 Well, the, um, the external reflects the internal, you know. You know them by their fruits, you know. What's going on inside a person is, will be reflected on the outside. So you see that in a man's physique. You see that in the way that he sort of conducts himself, the things he's acquired, the places he's trying to go. Um, which essentially means the, the journey's always an internal journey.

Chris Williamson 1:53:21 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:53:24 And there's no getting around that. And that is, that's, that's work that involves solitude. So sometimes I see people that surround themselves with people 'cause that's what the, the isolation journey will do to you, right? It'll make you think, "Have I become unsociable? Have I lost the ability to make and retain friendships?"

Chris Williamson 1:53:45 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 1:53:46 And then you sort of, you can see within some friendships that like, ah, you've not got comfortable with walking your journey of isolation by yourself to become the strongest version of yourself, and you're clinging onto these people-

Chris Williamson 1:54:02 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:54:02 ... for validation and a sense of belonging, and little do you know you'd be more, far more valuable to that friendship group if you just went through your challenges, man.

Chris Williamson 1:54:14 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:54:15 Embrace the, the solitude, embrace the, the isolation, come out on the other side. So again, I just, I do, I just think it's an, an internal journey-

Chris Williamson 1:54:25 Yeah

Bugzy Malone 1:54:26 ... that once taken seriously and, and taken, you, then you come out as a man that can serve. I think, I think people have forgotten what, what a man's job is. I think sort of being around, um, Guy Ritchie exposed that to me, and just witnessing certain conversations and why, having conversations with him. I don't know, because I just think that he's, um, somebody that's, um, a philosopher really. That's why we like his films. That's why we like the dialogue of his movies. But who that person is behind closed doors is, um, uh, an honest man and a devoted husband and a devoted father, um, um, and also someone that's very human, that's come up through all of the levels. You know? When you hear what a person like that has actually got to say as a much younger man, it, it just has a funny way of seeping into your bones, man, and, and you just sort of understand that like, again, you have to be just ruthlessly sort of accountable and, and responsible, and then you sort of remember that as a man it's your, it's your job to serve, man. I take, [chuckles] I, I take joy in, um, in helping out, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? If I can... I've got a young fan called Oliver. He's, um, he's autistic. He's, his, his dad's in jail, or was, and for me to be helpful towards an individual like that, I, I take joy from that.

Chris Williamson 1:56:11 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:56:11 You know? I've been in situations where something crazy's going on and I, I can offer a woman in that moment some sort of, um, protection. They're the moments that, that I think's like masculine nature. That's, that's like a part of me that, um, I take joy from. I see, I see some people that take joy from, like, spending money or, you know. A lot of the money I've spent has, has to been, been to reinvest into my brand, which was a rap brand. Big part of rap is the perception, so you gotta give them proof of income.

Chris Williamson 1:56:49 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:56:50 Um, but really behind all of that I'm quite a simple, a simple guy, man, and, and in that, as a man, I like to ... I feel like I like to do my job, if that makes sense.

Chris Williamson 1:57:04 How do you square rapping about having a Huracan and a Wraith that are in the same colors-

Bugzy Malone 1:57:10 Yeah

Chris Williamson 1:57:11 ... while also telling young people that money isn't the point?

Bugzy Malone 1:57:15 I think that you have a brand like mine, you better, you better get financially free, man. And if you're gonna be financially free, and you, and you're young enough to be brash, and it, and it, for it to be acceptable in, in any way, shape, or form, then, then demonstrate. You know, I, I've done this independently. I own, I own the rights to all my music. That's one thing, right? But then y- you gotta run the record label yourself. You gotta employ the people. At one point, the outgoings of, of, of the, of the business, it was something like 1.3 million on, on staff alone.

Chris Williamson 1:58:01 Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:58:02 As a rapper. On, on who, who's doing it? Who's taking on all that extra stress? So you're building a thing independently, and if you're gonna do that and you're gonna take that path, you sh- you gotta show proof of income, like it's going well. It's possible. You're showing guys coming into the business, like, by the way, you, you can do this in a way where you're not just relying on an industry to make it happen.

Chris Williamson 1:58:30 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 1:58:31 You know? So that being said, that was, that's sort of part and parcel with the job descrip- description I've taken on. Um, however, you take me out of that job description, and I'm really a simple guy, man. I'm really a simple guy at the ... I come from humble beginnings, man. I come from a house with no f- no carpet and, and floorboards, and you know. I really don't need much, and that's the truth of who I am behind it all. But if you're gonna be a rapper, and, you know, being poor will really do something to you, man. I've been guilty of being a real show-off, and I was like that from I first started to acquire money, just as a young man. You know, I'd buy a little super bike and, and turn up at the parties showing off. Like, it was something that I had to sort of humble myself in that regard, but if, again, it's the, it's a journey.

Chris Williamson 1:59:29 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Bugzy Malone 1:59:30 It's a journey,

Bugzy Malone 1:59:31 man.

Chris Williamson 1:59:32 Is there a line of yours that you wish more people paid attention to? From the new album, one that you think people might overlook, or from past work?

Bugzy Malone 1:59:45 Um, I, I think a mindset. I think there's a mindset that's overlooked, but in the times that I've... I'm always talk- I'm always going on about Vincent Van Gogh, man. I bore myself sometimes, but you know what? That's the truth. I'm a bit of a boring guy. Why? Because that's where progression lies, in repetition, man. So the things that I've studied, I've studied them over and over and over again until I've taken the gems out of them situations. The reason people wanna learn off successful people is 'cause they don't wanna go and do the repetition that's needed. Anyway, so one of the things that I, um, sort of understood, there's the sort of hinge factor in, in Van Gogh's legacy, which is what it is, let's, let's have it right. Some of his work is nearly priceless at this point, and he was trying to sell work. The work wouldn't sell. He dies, then his brother goes on to die, and his brother had a wife called Jo, and Jo put the, uh, letters between Vincent and his brother Theo out into the world. And when people understood the mindset and the philosophy behind Vincent Van Gogh's thinking, and the fact that his literature was probably as beautiful as his artwork, that's what made the paintings sell. Okay? So the more that I grow, and the more that I'm courageous enough to articulate what I'm actually thinking as somebody that comes from a very complex background-

Chris Williamson 2:01:16 Mm

Bugzy Malone 2:01:17 ... that sort of identified with being a, a, a villain at one point, but has also been exposed to sophisticated people and, and sort of took that on. When, when people really get an, an idea of my thinking, then- They'll go back and listen to what I was saying in retrospect.

Chris Williamson 2:01:37 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 2:01:37 Right? And there's a film called Eternity's Gate, it's about Van Gogh. You may not have seen it, and there's a point in that, in that film where Van Gogh goes to Saint Remy's Hospital, and in them days it was like a mental asylum, and what you would do is you would go and see a priest. The priest would come and see you to, to figure out whether you was corpus menace or not, and he would do that by your orientation, uh, in faith, in God, your belief. And, um, Van Gogh, his, his parents happened to be like pastors, and religion was something he knew like the back of his hand. So then when the, the priest, the priest holds up some of his work and he says, "You, you think God m-made you a, a painter to, to paint this?" And what he was saying is, "Your work's ugly."

Chris Williamson 2:02:25 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 2:02:25 Right? It's different. Monet and some of the big painters in France, they was making money from painting like realism and, you know, it all looked real, but the, the, the camera was gonna come and destroy that little trend. What Van Gogh had made was from his essence, right? And what Van Gogh says is, he says, "Sometimes I feel like God's made a mistake." And he says, "Sometimes I feel like God made me a painter for people that haven't yet been born." And when, and when I understood that, I understood that as an artist, the influence that I am having on people might not be for right now. It might be long after I'm gone. So it's my job to just do my best work and be humble enough to accept the fact that people might not be able to see what I'm doing. They might not be able to see all of the layers of the painting and the works of art that I'm putting out, but that doesn't mean that I become lazy because it's, it's gonna go over people's heads, and people might ignore it, because it's in the world forever, as Vincent Van Gogh's paintings are in the world forever, and that's why they go up in value. You know? Because the more you understand his philosophy and his thinking and his outlook on the world as somebody that was experiencing a really sort of rough go of it-

Chris Williamson 2:03:56 Mm

Bugzy Malone 2:03:56 ... he was sort of closer to reality. Yeah, and you can't get a- you can't escape reality, so you will always go back, and you will always refer back. You know? That's, that's something that had a profound impact on me, and that's what I've tried to do with this album. I've disconnected from feedback, validation. I've just made it. I've tried to make it more musical, these layers, and I've thrown it out there. With part two, I've not really even verbalized this, but with, with part two, I'll, I'll be getting on with my life at that point. I'll make it, and I won't be promoting it as a rapper, because I won't be a rapper at that point. I'll be a, a husband and a father.

Chris Williamson 2:04:38 Yeah.

Bugzy Malone 2:04:39 So I'll make it, and I'll throw it out into the world for people that are following the trail that I've sort of left out there. You know? And, um, and that'll be that, and at that point, acting will have either taken off and I'm supposed to be a more famous person, or I'm not. At this point, I've let go. You know they say to let go and let God. I've, I've, I've sort of got the things that I wanted in life, and now I'm sort of revisiting faith and understanding my purpose. What am I here to do? How am I here to help? How can I serve? How can I help? And if that means that I'm supposed to be more famous, then so be it. If that means I'm, I get to be less famous, you know, and I get, get my privacy back and, and freedom, then so be it. Both times round, I'll be doing things that I'm, I'm proud of, that I can stand by, that, like you say, my children can, can be proud of. You know? So that's my outlook on that.

Chris Williamson 2:05:49 Bugzy Malone, ladies and gentlemen. Dude, you rule. I appreciate the fuck out of you. Where should people go to keep up to date with what's going on?

Bugzy Malone 2:05:56 I mean, look, the, the album comes out Friday, so it'll be out by the time this is out. It's called Make It Maintain It Pt. 1. It's my best work. Um, The Gentlemen season three will come out at some point. I am, I'm giving that my all. I, I shaved my hair off and everyone's like, "Why has he shaved his hair off?" It's because I'm giving the acting game everything I've got.

Chris Williamson 2:06:19 Mm.

Bugzy Malone 2:06:19 So I'm looking a bit different. I'm acting a bit different.

Chris Williamson 2:06:20 Gained 10 kilos, shaved your head.

Bugzy Malone 2:06:23 You know, I'm serious about it. I'd like... It's a job description I'd like. I, I was lucky enough to be in a film with Jason Statham, and I s- and I seen his job description, I seen the way he conducted himself as a man, um, and it's, it's a job description I'd like. So I'm, I'm marching in that direction. Um, that being said, I'm, I'm, I'm around, you know? And I appreciate you having me on again.

Chris Williamson 2:06:48 I appreciate you, my man. Until next time. Goodbye, my beauties. Dude, yes.

Bugzy Malone 2:06:53 [laughs] Say it again. [laughs] Funky, though.

Chris Williamson 2:07:02 Hey, a quick note. One thing that we've been told by a lot of our subscribers is that on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube, they've been unsubscribed or unfollowed even though they pressed it. So just do me a favor and check below if that has happened. It's happening to a lot of people. Means that you get to find out about episodes before anybody else, and it supports the show and makes me very happy indeed. Just give it a little check, give it a little tap. All will be well. I thank you. [clicks tongue]