Modern WisdomHow To Work Out What You Want To Want From Life | Kyle Eschenroeder | Modern Wisdom Podcast 189
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,025 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(wind blowing) Ladies and gentlemen,…
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Kyle Eschenroeder in the building. How are you doing, man?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Very well. How are you?
- CWChris Williamson
Very, very well indeed. I'm happy to have you on. It's been a long time coming. First and foremost, for the listeners that don't know who you are, why, why do you think that I'm speaking to you today? Why do you think I reached out?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Oh, man. Um, that's, you know, that's a good, that's a very good question.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, (laughs) I may have had a lapse of, uh, lapse in judgment. Um, no, I, I, I actually, you know, I think it's an interesting time. I know you, you found this article, um, about asking ourselves the question, what do we want to want? Um, s- you know, has a lot to do with, with, um, reevaluating, uh, our values, um, and, and our desires. And I think, you know, a lot of us are being forced to do that, uh, throughout the, this, this COVID situation. So, um, it's s- kind of a good time to talk about, um, talk about that and, and, and see if we might be able to do it in a more strategic or skillful way.
- CWChris Williamson
I think you've answered my, my reasons pretty accurately there, man. Yeah, I, um, I stumbled across your blog post, What Do You Want to Want, on your blog, um, and I was blown away, man. It's a 60-minute read or so, and I absolutely adored it. And I was (exhales) 10 minutes in, and I was already scouring around online trying to find your email address, and it turned out that you already followed me on, on Twitter, which made everything an, an awful lot easier. Um, so yeah. I have got you on because I, I just wanna go through this blog post. It's one of the most, uh, fundamental concepts that I've never heard spoken about before, and I think there's an awful lot of people listening, I know a ton of audience members, who will really benefit from this. So that's, that's why we're here. We're gonna go through it. So first things first, why is working out what you want to want important?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
So I think, um, mostly 'cause you don't wanna live a life that you regret at the end of it, right? Um, (laughs) uh, and I think, I think that when we, when we follow our kind of, uh, default desires, we're much more likely to, to find ourselves at a place in life, um, that we didn't really want to or, or mean to get to. Um, so, so I think, uh, I think that's, you know, that's kind of a, the, the, the big one. Um, but, but then also, I mean, there's, there's a lot of things along the way, um, it's not like, uh, that, that, that can benefit from, from asking ourselves this question.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, so actually, you know, I knew you were gonna, y- w- we were gonna talk about this, so I kinda pulled some of my favorite quotes from the article that I think, um, emphasize some of these points better than, than I could-
- CWChris Williamson
I love it.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... off the cuff. Yeah, so, so, um, Ralph Waldo Em- Emerson, in, in Self-Reliance, has this line, "My life is for itself and not a spectacle." And I think, um, our default desires so often, um, t- uh, push us towards trying to create a life that is a spectacle, um, something that, you know, looks great to others but, uh, itself feels kind of maybe empty or, um, uh, uh, off of what, you know, off-center from what, what we would truly want for ourselves. Um, and actually, that, that, it reminds me, I mean, s- it, your audience may be more familiar now with, um, the idea of memetic desire that's gotten really popular since Peter Thiel started talking about it. Um, you know, it's this, uh, idea that, that, uh, originated with this sociologist, Rene Girard, um, that basically means that we naturally want what those around us want, um, so those are kind of our default desires. And, and Thiel, in his book, Zero to Win, he talks about how, um, kind of realizing this helped him switch tracks from, uh, a, a legal career that he was, you know, getting really far into and, and had an incredible outlook, um, and, and switching into tech, which, which made his life a lot, a lot better. I mean, he had better outcomes and, um, it was just more aligned with his, his true values. Um, I think if you get s- ... So if we get stuck in these memetic or default desires, um, they, they disconnect us from our actual ones, um, and (laughs) and I think there's this, there's a really beautiful, it's a two-sentence quote, um, from Proust from Swann's Way that gets into, I think, the nuance of why desiring, you know, uh, our defaults can be dangerous. He says, uh, "To think that I've wasted years of my life, that I've longed to die, that I've experienced my greatest love for a woman who didn't appeal to me, who wasn't even my type." So, so-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, God. (laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... like, he was, you know, like he was experiencing desire, right? He was chasing this woman, and he actually, like, longed to die. Like, he was willing to give everything to her. And then at the end of it, he, he realizes that she wasn't even his type. So, um-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... I, I, I think that, you know, it, it, it, it's how se- you know, these, these default desires can be super seductive, um, uh, a- and if we don't apply some level of awareness, um, you know, they're gonna take you places you, you don't wanna be. Um, so there's, you know ... Then I'd add just a couple, a couple extra points. So, um, I think, you know, I think that, um, we, we, we've experienced a lot of, um-... uh, kind of breakdowns in societ- i- in trust in society to the point where I think there's a- a significant portion of the population who is afraid to desire, you know, anything other than, you know, immediate, uh, um, comfort.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Or, uh ... And, and I think that, um, you know, reassessing desires and realizing they don't need to be what, what those around us kind of think they should be, um, can, can be a really healthy way of rekindling healthy desires. Um, and then also inevitably, in the long run, we fall into ... Um, our desires create our path of least resistance. And in the long run, I think that we all f- end up following our path of least resistance. Um, Robert Fritz talks about this really beautifully in his book called The Path of Least Resistance. But, um, so I think, I think w- if, if we can shape our d- desires even a little bit, it can create massive, massive, um, changes in, in our lives. And, and, um, it allows us to trust ourselves and, you know, experience flow more often, right? Like, if you can trust your desires to be in your best interest-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... then, uh, uh, eh, eh, it can, it can, it can make life, uh, uh, a little easier in some ways.
- CWChris Williamson
Man, uh, I, I really agree. I think it's such a fundamental question, and that's why I found it so fascinating when I began reading the article. And for the people that are thinking, "Oh, this article sounds great," it will be linked in the show notes below, of course. Um, but to everyone that's listening, ask yourself, "What do you want to want?" Like, genuinely, what do you want to want? Not d- what do you want? Like, "I want that piece of cake. I want, uh, this car. I want ..." Whatever it might be. Like, what do you want to want? The ability to program our desires, to choose our own path, is something which has never been gifted to us in as high velocity as it has done right now, right? You know, we have the depth and breadth, uh, uh, of freedom that no other society in history has had. The first ever society whose problems are problems of surplus, not problems of scarcity. And with that in mind, it means that you get to do things that you usually wouldn't be able to. But because of this memetic, uh, predisposition that we have, where we reflect the people who are around us and their desires, and this path of least resistance, which you mentioned, which is kind of a number of different things, like a genetic predisposition towards certain bits and pieces, um, and then you compound that. This is the real pernicious thing about it, that you compound that over time, and that becomes patterns of behavior, which are increasingly more and more difficult to change. So, your desires that you have now, which as we've identified very well may not be chosen, they're just kind of emergent from you never actually looking at what you want to want, over time will become increasingly harder to step out of that valley of, right? Because like a river, it cuts a path that's ever deeper. And then after time, you're like, "Well, this river's now like Niagara Falls, and it's gonna take a, a, a h- extra human, superhuman effort in order for me to redirect this flow of water." Um, so yeah, I think, man, it's, um, it's a really fascinating, a really fascinating thing to think. And you, uh, you mentioned (laughs) there about the, um, the, the, the quote where this guy had realized at the end of his life that it was a woman who wasn't even his type. I was talking to Greg McKeown, guy that wrote Essentialism, and he said he was working with some huge tech, uh, execs from Silicon Valley. And this guy who'd made it to the top of the corporate ladder, was very successful, basically said, um, that his relationship with his son was breaking down. He has this teenage son who he essentially can't speak to. They can't have a conversation. His son wants to leave the room whenever he enters it. There's just a terrible, terrible relationship, you know? And, um, that is someone Greg said, "Who won at the wrong game."
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And holy shit, if that's not the sort of thing that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. You know, this guy who's dedicated his life towards something that he thought would give him purpose and meaning and a sense of fulfillment, and is actually ... You know, uh, in every- by everyone's definition, has dedicated himself to a thing, but dedicated himself to the wrong thing with time that he can never get back. Like, man, that's hell, you know? That's hell incarnate on earth.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yes, pretty terrifying. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) It's absolutely terrifying.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So, okay, so we, we understand that working out what we want to want is important, because it allows us to program our desires, which in an essence, it programs our life. It f- forms a foundation upon which our behaviors can draw from. And also, I like the idea of it being kind of like an, uh, a trustworthy friend, you know, or a good advisor on your shoulder, that if you have designed desires, you know that what you want to want is a, uh ... What you want is a good indication of what you should want, because it's designed as opposed to emergent. Next up, what should we want? We've decided that we should want desi- design our wants. What should we want?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Got an entire world out there to choose from.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Awesome. Yes. Uh, one thing I wanted, I wanna bring up. Um, there's this, there's this great ... B- before we, before I answer that, um, I don't wanna make this sound easy or something. You know, like, um ...The article was written a few years ago, and I, you know, it's- this isn't- I'm, I'm not here pretending to have mastered my every desire, right?
- 15:00 – 30:00
Mm-hmm. …
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
idea of wanting what is, um, to some degree seems pretty desirable. That's essentially achieving, you know, Nietzsche's, uh, amor fati. Um, but then if we want to get, you know, more specifically, uh, it seems that if life, life would be better if we, um, were to want the things that were nourishing for us in the, in the long run.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, Naval, the founder of AngelList, actually, the other day on Twitter had a really good tweet. He said, uh, and, you know, he is, he's good at tweets. The, uh, he said, "The modern devil is cheap dopamine." So, I think-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... I mean, that's like a really great heuristic for what we don't want to want, right? Um, you know, we, we, ideally we are not de- designing ourselves to, uh, uh, desire cheap dopamine hits above all. Cheap dopamine hits being, like, you know, candy or the intellectual equivalent, you know, like, um, uh, uh, a bad, a badly constructed Twitter feed or, or Reddit or, or, or things like that.
- CWChris Williamson
It goes, it goes to everything as well, right? It goes to, um, that reply from a random girl you've never met on Instagram DM when you've got a girlfriend to bolster your sense of whatever. Like, it goes to texting in the car while you drive. Like, uh, you know, there's so many iterations of that, um, yeah.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
That's a great example, yeah. Yeah. And so I'd like to, and I also, I, I'd like to imagine a spectrum of desires. You know, so, um, it's really helpful for me to, uh, you know, envision, like, the enlightened sage on one side, um, and, you know, who, who in, you know, for our purposes, whose desires lead to eudaimonia and, you know, human, human flourishing. Um, and then on the other side we have a caveman or, you know, something that's completely driven by their, by their id, by their lowest desires. Um, and, and this isn't perfect, right? There's, there's, there's, you know, there, there could be, you know, there's like the noble savage idea and stuff that I think we can talk about a little bit more later. But, um, I think that that spectrum helps you, like, uh, it... What side of this spectrum does this desire land on? And I think that's a, a helpful way to orient, um, uh, d- our, our, our desires.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree. I think that learning what you shouldn't want to want first is a very easy way to, to work this out. So, uh, people who listened to episode 69, The Most Ever Played, uh, on Mental Models with George McGill will know the power of inversion. It's really hard sometimes to work out what makes us happy, but it's quite easy to explain how you would make a happy person depressed. And then if you flip that on its head and you say, "Well, okay, if that's how I make a happy person depressed, if I either choose to do the opposite of them, I don't do the things that would cause it, or I do do the things that would stop it, like, that's how I make myself happier." I need to wake up on time and get sunlight and exercise and see friends and drink water and have healthy food and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's the same for this, right? Like, what would be... When it comes to wants-... ask yourself, and this is a, this is a full deep throat red pilling that me and Kyle are giving you throughout today. This is an active podcast. This is not a passive one, as Kyle's already said. But ask yourself, like, what are the things that you really should not want to want? Should you not want to want the appreciation of people who you don't care about, that are not in your immediate circle? Should you not want to want a whole host of very shallow, very meaningless friendships and/or relationships and/or sexual encounters with people? Should you not want ... You know, continue to iterate on that as much as you want. But like, ask yourself, you know, what would make ... What wants, if you took them to their nth degree, would guarantee that you led an unfulfilled life? 'Cause I, man, I can make a list that's longer than my arm of those things. Um, so I think that's, that's a pretty good place to start. You actually, um, you created a, like four areas that you moved through in the blog post, right? There was four different sections. Why did you, why did you choose those four?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
I think they were, they were pretty fundamental. Um, pretty unco- Uh, I don't want to say not controversial, um, but I think, uh, they're, they're, they're pretty, uh, well-founded. Um, and, uh, and I actually, you know, a lot of them came from inversions. So taking desires I had that I felt were unhelpful and figuring out, uh, looking as, looking at them as closely as I could, right? And, and, and figuring out where, you know, um, uh, h- Could they be helpful? Were they pushing me in a healthy direction or not? And if not, how could I change them? Um, and so, so, um, yeah, we looked at, um, you know, want from, from, you know, switching from wanting fame to, to actually doing something, making change. Um, from wanting extreme wealth to wanting a frugal heart. Uh, from wanting to be extraordinary to wanting the ordinary. Uh, and from wanting an easy life to actually desiring struggle. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
I think, uh, man, it's, it, that, that little sort of paradigm thing that you've created, I really like. And it is high level, wanting an easy life, wanting to be somebody, wanting extreme wealth, and wanting to be extraordinary. Those are four very, very common wants that people want, but probably don't want to want. Certainly not when they actually fully appreciate what the implications are of wanting that want. Would you agree?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yes. I would, I would agree fully.
- CWChris Williamson
Good.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Wholeheartedly.
- CWChris Williamson
Good. Well, it's just as well 'cause I, I've taken that learning from your blog post, mate. So, um, also, I am, I'm banning you from doing any more caveats throughout the rest of this, of this podcast, man.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like your article, your article is, is fantastic. And it is extensive, not exhaustive. And if anyone's got a problem with the fact that you don't go to the nth degree or the end of the earth to explain all of the different possibilities, then they can ... My DMs are open. They can come speak to me. You're just unloading wisdom today, man, and everyone else can fuck off. So let's get into it. Wanting an easy life versus wanting a life of struggle. Why would someone not want an easy life? Why should they want a life of struggle? That sounds shit.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yeah. So, so first of all, um, it, it can kill you. Um, so-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
So (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
There we go.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
So, so yeah, I mean, uh, there's this ... Uh, Shell did a study of, of these, uh, employees that retired at 55 versus those at 65. And, um, m- the people that retired at 55 died significantly sooner than those that retired at 65. And that's been, you know, there, there's tons of studies that'll show you that. If you retire early, right, and, um, you live a normal retired life, you will die earlier. Um, there's also, so like, struggle is universal. There's nothing we can do to eliminate it. Um, so if we're able to em- embrace it, again, to like whatever degree is possible for you now, um, it, it, it makes life, you know, you're fighting against life a little bit less, um, paradoxically, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Kelly McGonigal actually has, she, she has a ton of great examples in her book, The Upside of Stress. Um, but my favorite is, um, is this bit where she talks about how our bodies actually release different chemicals depending on how we perceive a stressor. So, um, if we think that a particular stressful situation is just bad and regret having to take it on and kind of try to avoid it, our bodies will put out less helpful healthy chemicals. So it's basically, they pump out this chemical mix that's more, uh, cortisone heavy, uh, or sorry, uh, cortisol heavy than, than if we embrace the stress as something healthy and that can provide a energy to get past obstacles. So, if we allow ourselves to embrace a stressor, we will, our bodies will actually respond different physically and release different chemicals into our system that will, uh, that will give us, you know, healthier, better energy. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Man, that's so, that's so fucking cool. And, um, to link that back, you may have heard Sam Harris talk about this. He uses this hilarious analogy, uh, where he says, "Imagine that spontaneously, you just were given the full physiological sensations that you have at the end of completing an incredibly hard high-intensity workout."... like you're just driving down the street and that happens, heart rate's jacked up through the roof, you're sweating, like, you, you're panting, you're tired, you can't breathe, all this stuff. You would be terrified. You'd think, "Holy fucking shit. What is going on?"
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"Am I gonna die? D- uh, darling, darling, ring the, ring the ambulance immediately." Um, but reframe that. Reframe that at the end of a workout, that is the signal you're chasing. That is the discomfort you're leaning into, because it is a marker that you have done something. So that immediately shows. People for millennia have been avoiding cold. It's been a thing that has killed countless, countless humans. And now all of my friends do cold exposure first thing in the morning. They go and get a cold shower-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... because they see that as a signal that is something. So that shows exactly, not only is there a, um, a mental reframing which changes the way that we see that discomfort or that struggle, uh, there's also, as you've identified there, the reframing then is reflected physiologically with how our body responds to it too. That's super, that's super cool.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and I mean, the, the examples go on and on. Um, you know, two thirds of, of trauma survivors that have, uh, actually experienced post-traumatic growth, um, uh, and, and the, the difference between the ones that experience growth versus not is, is, uh, is purely mindset. And ag- and again, you know, it's to some degree that's, you know, there is a breaking point. And N- you know, Nietzsche's idea that, uh, you know, what doesn't kill us makes us stronger is obviously not 100% correct. He lost his mind and, and, and physically weakened and, and never ... You know, he, he, he re- reached a break- breaking point just like everybody can. Um, but the, the, the, uh, amount of, of pain that we, we can take is, is often surprising to us. Um, so, again, um, in adults who late in life, um, actually experience more struggles throughout their life reported greater sa- satisfaction with their lives, um, and a stronger sense of purpose, and made more original contributions, um, than those who reported having a more consistently pleasant life. Um, and, you know, (sighs) there's, you know, Viktor Frankl, the author of Man's Search for Meaning-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- 30:00 – 45:00
So yeah, uh, this…
- CWChris Williamson
that. I like that a lot. Okay. So wanting an easy life, people think, "I just want to coast along," but they're gonna die sooner, they're not going to find as much meaning, they're also going to have worse memories. Viktor Frankl, uh, if Viktor Frankl said it, then it is, it's correct, you know? So that's-... line drawn under that. People should want a life of struggle, or at the very least, lean into the struggles that they have, and embrace them and see them as challenges to overcome rather than, uh, kind of curses to bear, I suppose. Uh, up next, wanting to be somebody versus wanting to do something. How does this map?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
So yeah, uh, this is, this one is, is tough right now, right, because, uh, uh, everybody (laughs) wants more attention, right? I mean, um, and- and- and it gets murky, right, because attention has become valuable, right? Like, you can build business off- businesses off of the amount of attention you get, right? So, um, so this one gets, uh, the nuance here is very important. Um, but fame is- is, you know, absolutely addicting. It's one of the most addictive things. Um, Adam Smith said that, uh, "To those who have been accustomed to the possession or even the hope of public admiration, all other pleasures sicken and decay." (laughs) Um, which you can kind of see, like, you know, if you- e- j- d- the- the- the pain of a waning celebrity is, you know, visceral. And you can see it in their decisions that they make, right? They'll make kind of- they'll- they'll agree to... And sometimes it's about money, but a lot of it is often about, uh, uh, getting- squeezing out the last little bit of attention that they can out of a career when they go on, like, these, uh, humiliating game shows and stuff like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, so, and- a- and- and another huge, huge danger, uh, with fame is that it- it puts our happiness, uh, uh, on the whims of- of those, uh, to whom we're famous. Um, so the person who seeks fame is- is making their happiness largely dependent on the opinions of other people, right? Um, so those- those people who have the power to build you up al- have the same power to- to tear you down. And, you know, um, I mean, we see this all the time, um, kind of in scapegoating, right? Like, eh, everybody will just, uh, pick- uh, pick a celebrity who did some kind of minor- made some kind of minor infraction and just tear them- tear them apart. Um, Kevin Kelly (laughs) , Kevin Kelly, uh, wrote a great article just on advice, and he- he pointed out that, um, anybody who's read a famous person's biography, uh, should understand that you don't want to be famous. Um, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... it- it becomes super obvious that- that a life that makes a really great story, um, is not necessarily the- the- the li- the life that feels best to live while you're in it. Um, so, uh, and- and again, you know, there's- there's- there's obvious value to fame. Um, you know, few things matter more than your reputation. Um, but the point is here that we should, you know, shift the order. So, if you desire, um, impact more than attention, um, then any fame you achieve will be based on a solid foundation, and your happiness won't disappear when the attention does. Um, so- so, you know, i- if somebody makes an individual breakthrough contribution technologically or something, um, th- they'll become famous for 15 seconds. But in most cases, when that fade fames, as it inevitably will, because they're not the type of people who are doing the work to increase their fame or maintain their fame daily, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Their happiness doesn't go away, because the work that actually is meaningful to them, which is creating change, creating, in this case, whatever technologies, um, uh, still is there for them, right? Um, and so, you know, they might feel a little twinge, but it's nothing like, you know, um, uh, uh, the- the pain that a celebrity feels when- when the spite- spotlight is fading.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's- it's fame for fame's sake, isn't it? And, uh, man, the- I actually think, I actually think that in all of the article, in all of your blog post, the wanting to be somebody is probably the biggest red pill to swallow in there. It's certainly one of them. And, um, I don't know how much you know about my background, but I was on a couple of reality TV shows in the UK, so, like, that's where the blue tick wanker and all that sort of stuff comes from, and-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Dude, I'm on air with a celebrity?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, no, no, please. For the love of Christ.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
This is incredible.
- CWChris Williamson
No, no, no (laughs) , Kyle, stop. Um, b- but what- what happened, I was on a dating show, Love Island, which is essentially, if you can imagine what eight weeks of television that looks like what life would be like if Instagram put a filter over it all, that's kind of how it comes across, right? Um, and what that does is people don't get to win that show or be successful on that show because of something that they do or even something that they are. It just completely dilutes everyone down to the lowest common denominator. The people that win might be very talented at a thing, but they don't win because of their talent. They win because of the fact that they chose the right girl or guy and have abs and got a tan and, uh, said the right thing at the right moment. Like, there was a- a real talented boxer on there. There's been doctors on there. There's been all sorts of people. They didn't do well or badly because of anything that they actually did or created or had impact or worked at. They were just there and gifted fame, eh, for no reason. And the challenge with that is, as you've hit the nail on the head, th- uh, like, those who giveth can taketh away. And if you put your sense of identity and your sense of happiness around that fame, and that fame is simply hollow...... when it goes, you're left with nothing. Whereas, if you have it on a foundation, a very firm foundation of it being built on something that you love to do, that you create, that scales over time, that becomes anti-fragile. You know, the, I'm sure there'll be times, inventors, if there's anyone who's listening who's ever got famous and then had it go away, especially if you're an inventor, you might be actually like, "Right. Thank f- fuck all of those, that attention's gone. I can now actually get back to doing some work."
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Right. Yeah, I, uh, if, if it's all right, I have a couple, a couple questions.
- CWChris Williamson
Hit me.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Uh, one, do you think that, uh, the cast, and, and I don't know if you, you, you've, you've kept in touch, but, but did life get easier or, uh, or I should say better or worse for, um, for, for, for the majority of people, um, after the show? And, and two, uh, i- i- do you think your, your, was, was, was the show and kind of recognizing the danger of that, uh, fame or that, that, that taste of, uh, attention that you, you, you received, um, did that... Was that, uh, an impetus to, you know, start the podcast and, um, explore some of these other ideas?
- CWChris Williamson
Got you. Yeah. Two really good questions, man. Um, so with regards to the other people on the show, like I, I, I still follow some of them online. I don't follow any of the girls. Like I didn't speak to the girls while I was on there, so it's pointless, me w- following them when I'm off. Um, but they, they, you know, some of the boys are doing good. Uh, a couple of them are on other reality TV shows or doing whatever. Um, there's certainly a little bit of a case of th- some of the guys have got a taste of fame and are now sort of clinging onto it. Some of the guys have now, um, embraced normality again and just see it as what it was, which was a good experience. Um, the problem is that people want fame for the purpose of being famous. They want to be famous for being well-known, not famous for having done something, and-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's, it's so dangerous, man. Like, I log on to hear people talking on live streams about their reputation or, or what people are saying about them, which was created off the back of nothing, like it was picked up out of the back of no virtue. No, no, just nothing, nothing happened. They were selected the same way as, uh, lightning selects a victim, you know, like just-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Oof.
- CWChris Williamson
... with a tiny, a tiny little bit more discrimination. And, um, I don't know. I, I think, I think that all of the guys, certainly from my season, I think that they will... They're slowly on the path to kind of, um, integrating those two different worlds, like the post sort of fame world or the, the post, uh, (laughs) relevancy world and the, the world where they, they still were. Um, and then on the second one about kind of my insight into that, yeah, um, it certainly identified in me that, um, I was playing a little bit of a persona, that that route wasn't really the one that I wanted. Now, don't get me wrong, man. If I was able to get the sort of traction that the top level, uh, people 'Cause the show's kind of got exponentially bigger since I was on it five years ago. Um, if I was able to get that sort of traction because of this podcast or because of other stuff that I do, maybe some writing, maybe some whatever it might be, if I was able to get that kind of traction from something that I genuinely care about, I would, I would love it. But even if I didn't, I don't care. I do this podcast. I don't... Like, I love the audience, everyone that's listening. I love you to bits, and thank you so much for being a part of this journey, because it, it is the, the most fun, most engaging, most exhilarating activity and project I've ever worked on, but in the nicest way possible. If you all fucked off tomorrow, I'd still do it. Like I would still be here, still speaking to people, still, still loving this process, um, and that's the most robust situation I think to be in. And, uh, you know, I, I hope everyone that's listening finds a thing in their life. And that could be being a mother, being a brother, you know, being a good friend, um, being a good community, uh, server. That could be being a high performing athlete or a good businessman or someone who's creative, whatever it might be. Like if you find that thing that makes you lose yourself in it, the fame, notoriety, wanting to be somebody can come and go, but the, the, the joy of the activity itself remains, and that's really pure.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Amen. Yeah. Especially, um, I think like you pointed to in, in creative, creative work where, um, you know, oftentimes the thing that you think is best is maybe least appreciated. Um, and so you have to, uh, uh, and, and, you know, the thing that gets, you know, uh, most popular might make you feel, uh, misunderstood or some- You know, like, um, h- h- uh, almost betrayed by, by your fan base. So it's like, um... A- and, and obviously for a long time you have very little chance of monetizing creative activities. Um, so if you find something that, that, that you would do, um, either way, um, a- and that, you know, if you... Yeah, it... Doing something for attention is, is an incredibly fragile, uh, endeavor.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I think that gets... It's been, uh, magnified, right, by social media because the content often which is actually the best or adds the most value or hits people the deepest is also sometimes some of the worst performing shit that goes out on there, you know. Like I can put a tr-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I can put a trailer out for an episode which has taken two hours to research, two hours to record, another couple of hours of editing, and then put a s- a 60-second subtitle trailer together up on-... on Instagram or something and it, it, it kind of just does okay, some people support it, some people don't. But then you put up a, a, a topless photo with a couple of emojis-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and it absolutely flies. And you're like, "Well," like, you gotta, you gotta play the game. And, uh, you know, it is what it is. You can't hate that. But it, so seductive, right?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because you think, "Well, why, why don't I just keep on chasing what people..." The, the, the, the be somebody route, right? "Why should I bother doing something when I'm not getting the, um, volume of attention that I do when I want to be somebody?"
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yes. And I think, um, I think this is, you know, you pointed to the order mattering, right? Like, the, the thing that you care deeply about is what's important, and then you're doing these other activities that are essentially marketing to, you know, to, to, um, sustain and build-
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
(inhales) So, I think,…
- CWChris Williamson
ever actually end up being fully faithful to them because they're terrified of what that means, or they, they don't ever end up actually fully opening up to them, you know? Like, it's, i- it's so important, I think, to, um, not have your sense of self-worth leveraged up against other people's opinions for you. So, we've got, we want a life of struggle, we want to do something not to be somebody. Next, wanting extreme wealth versus wanting a frugal heart. What does that mean?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(inhales) So, I think, um, Arthur Schopenhauer has this line that, that I think frames this whole point really perfectly. He says, "Money is human happiness in the abstract. He, then, who is no longer capable of enjoying happiness in the concrete devotes his heart entirely to money." So, um, like we just talked about, right? Um, if you are, you know, uh, trying to go after fame for fame's sake, uh, that's almost like it's an abstract version of love versus doing something where you actually have to pour love into something, right? Um, so, so in this case, it is, you know, when we have no other more meaningful or purposeful or, um, uh, yeah, connection in our life, um, money is kind of the default, uh, that we assume will fill that hole. Um, and so another way to look at this is actually another Peter Thiel example, um, from Zero to One. He, he, uh, he, he talks about definite optimists versus indefinite optimists. Um, and definite optimists are optimists about something in particular. So, um, entrepreneurs tend to fit in this category, so optimistic about, you know, uh, uh, uh, sustainable energy or, you know, and what exactly that should look like, what specific piece needs to improve in order to, uh, make the world better. Um, and then indefinite optimists tend to, uh, they, they, they, they think the world's gonna get better, um, but really, they, they don't care how and, um, and these people tend to be in finance and are obsessed with optionality. Because really, I think really 'cause they, they lack vision, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, and so, if, if, if money is the most y- interesting thing that you think you can collect, you know, like, and you don't have more concrete reasons for achieving that, right? And some level of optionality is, is incredibly freeing and useful, right? But if, i- if you just keep (laughs) going on and on and on playing the same game, it's just, i- i- i- um, you, you, you haven't been very imaginative, right? Um, so, so, yeah. So, so like, like fame, wealth is super addicting, um, and it's easy to think that happiness lies behind the next financial milestone. Um, obviously (laughs) . Uh, uh, if, if, any of us who have been lucky enough to make some money know that that's, that's truth. Um, uh, and then, uh, you know, and i- uh, obsession with extreme wealth also is, is dangerous to your morals. Um, and I think we need some level of humility to admit that. Um, but, but, um, so on our way to acquiring wealth, we may give ourselves more slack, um, in the actions that we take to acquire it. Um, and then once we're wealthy, it's super easy to listen to the sycophants around us that, that hold us to less strict moral standards than they do to their peers. Um, so we begin to feel that, you know, moral rules may not apply to us in the same way. Um, so, so I think...... the, the, the reframe here that, that's- I, I find really helpful actually comes from Tim O'Reilly of O'Reilly Media. Um, h- he produces- he's, he's been in the tech world forever. He produces a ton of, like, how-to, um, guides for programmers and things like that. Um, but he, he, he lin- he, he, uh, he has this metaphor that, um, we, we should think of, of money as gasoline on a road trip. So it absolutely sucks to run out of it, so you have to pay attention to it. You have to make sure that your tank is, you know, uh, uh, reasonably full. But the trip is not about getting gas at all, right? So that's not the purpose. The purpose, the gas has a purpose to power your trip, but the trip is in no way ... Like, you would never plan a trip around going to the gas station, right?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Unless you were preparing for a longer voyage. So, um, yeah. A- a- another, another antidote is to, um, to stoke our desire to develop the frugal heart. So that's the switch, right? So obsess, from obsessing to extreme wealth, right? And that's where I, I, I kind of, uh, use the word extreme, right? Because obviously wealth provides so many powerful options and, and enables so many important things in life that it obviously matters. But, um, from that kind of moving from the obsession to extreme wealth, to developing a frugal heart. Um, and I stole that from this novel, Zorba the Greek. Um, and it's, it's basically the ability to enjoy the little things in life. Um, so, like, anyone who goes, you know, who's, who, who likes hiking knows that, that life doesn't get better than a really good hike, um, with, you know, someone you love, and, and those cost very, very little. Um, so, so if we're able to enjoy more things about our life as it is, I think we're less likely to go into debt for things that we really don't care that much about or add unnecessary stress to keep us up with the, you know, keep, keep up with the consumption of those around us. Um, and I think, you know, a frugal heart h- also creates ph- freedom by just lowering our personal burn rate. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, you know, so if you can, if you can get through life without, uh, you know, the most expensive cars or, um, you know, uh, uh, brand new clothes every month or whatever. You know, whatever it is for you, um, if you can lower your burn rate, it creates freedom and possibility and choices that go away once you have, uh, a certain, you know, uh, main- you have to maintain a certain lifestyle.
- CWChris Williamson
Man, I had, um, I had Morgan Housel, writer on Collaborative Fund and ex-Motley Fool writer as well on here, one of the best Twitter, uh, accounts for finance and wealth management stuff. And, uh, he said, he has this amazing definition of wealth. He says, "Wealth is the Ferrari that you didn't buy. It's the square footage in the house that you didn't purchase. Wealth a- allows you to do what you want, with who you want, when you want, for as long as you want, with no one telling you to do anything else." And you're like, there you go. That is what it is. It's an, uh, uh, an allowance of freedom. Um, but, uh, the, the frugal heart thing, the wanting to do something, and the wanting to embrace the ordinary, those three go together for me. I think the wanting an easy life versus wanting a life of struggle actually sits outside of it.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But this is something that people that are listening, uh, might have realized or noticed in themselves during lockdown. I know that I certainly have. Like, I've never paid such close attention or taken such joy from tiny little things. Like, I do a morning walk every morning and I know the order in which the trees on the street that I walk down on my morning walk, I know the order in which they leafed. Like, I know this one went first, and oh, that one went about two days later, and this one's got a little bit of flower blossom on it, and this one's got that. And like, I know the shape of them. I know the color of them. I know, and it sounds, it's like I've turned into some, uh, horticultural fanatic or something like that, uh, which I haven't. But, the point is that because the amount of novelty that was going on in my life got downregulated because there's so much less stuff that I can do because the pandemic's brought that down, I'm now paying closer attention to things that were right under my nose the whole time, and I'm now actually taking joy from them despite the fact that they haven't changed. Like, my garden's been the same garden as it's been for five years. But I never actually watched the, the, some of the plants and the flowers in my garden bloom, and i- it will, and then, uh, leaf, and then do all these other bits and pieces. But I'm taking joy from that, you know? And it's like th- there's definitely a- an amount of frugality that's occurred due to the increase- or the reduction in novelty, uh, I think that the, the pandemic's caused.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yes. Uh, man, uh, I, I love your leaf example.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Like, I- I seriously (overlapping 00:07:20) .
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, you good horticulturalist over here.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
I (laughs) , I, there, well there's, there is nothing ... I actually, I caught myself one day staring at a single leaf on the ground for like 15 minutes. And it, it's amazing th- these things that we, you know, normally will just walk by, like you said. If you attend to them, if, like just place your attention on them and you keep it there, they cease to be boring and they become, like impossibly interesting and beautiful, right? Like these, these, uh, uh, any little mundane thing, especially biological, you know, like organisms.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Uh, like-... uh, like a leaf. Like, uh, uh, a- and, yeah, I think that that is, that's, that is, like, the perfect example for developing (overlapping dialogue) a frugal heart.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Hey, I've been thinking, I've been reading your blog post a lot. I put it on my... Oh, here's one for the people who, uh, listened to the most recent Life Hacks episode. It's a long blog post. I didn't want to read it on my laptop. I used the Send to Kindle Chrome extension to send it onto my Paperwhite, and it was delivered with all of the formatting retained. I was able to edit the font size. Send to Kindle on Google Chrome Extension store. Go and get it. It's free, and it will turn your e-reader into an article reader at the w- uh, the, literally the click of one button. And it keeps the audi- the author's name, and it has the title in it. It's f- absolutely phenomenal. Uh, final thing on the, uh, the frugal heart before we move on. Another, um, Morgan Housel-ism from when I spoke to him, I was talking about the fact that I feel like there's a genetic set point. It's obviously socialized, but it comes so early in life, I don't think that you can really class it as that, or you can class it less as that, should I say. You have a spending set point, a materialist set point, mostly that you've probably inherited from your family, your siblings, your parents. If your parents were very keeping up with the Joneses-e, uh, they were always buying a new car, if people were spending a lot of money on birthday presents and Christmas presents, and, um, the relationships were always shows of, of gifts and, uh, showering each other in this sort of thing, um, you will have grown up with that. And if you are unable to deprogram that desire, you'd better hope that you get a good performing job that pays a lot of money. Because if you don't, you're gonna spend your entire life chasing more and more in an attempt to try and fulfill that materialist desire. Whereas the frugal heart side of this, the person who's just happy looking at a leaf, I know, that's, I know that's a, like a stupid extreme example, but the person who would be happy spending an afternoon with the person that they love going for a beautiful walk and having a nice meal on the evening time, as opposed to it being some five-star hotel trip away to the Seychelles with fresh fruit float in basket and f- fireworks and all this sort of stuff, you know? Um, the difference between those two, in terms of enjoyment, is the same. But as you identified, the, um, leveraging of the system in terms of how much they need to work to achieve the same level of happiness, because presuming that you're, the money that you earn is a function of how much you have to work, uh, i- it's totally different. So yeah, man. Frugal heart, I'm, I'm all over it.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yeah. And like you pointed to, the point isn't to, you know, make less and go join a commune or something. It's, the point is to liberate yourself from the unending need for more. So, it's not about, you know, doing less. Uh, it is, it is about enjoying more.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you. Okay, so final section. Uh, wanting to be extraordinary versus wanting to embrace the ordinary. We kind of already touched on it with the, with the leaf thing, right?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yeah, I love how you, uh, you, you, you tied those three together. And I think, and I think they do. You know, there, there are some, some kind of, I th- I think that you can really get at some, some core shifts by, you know, if you tug on one of these, um, you're gonna, you're gonna see a lot, uh, a lot of, a lot of change, right? In, in maybe unexpected areas. Um, but yeah. So, so the idea, you know, the, uh, o- one of the, this is another one where it's a little bit paradoxical, right? 'Cause there's, there's, there's nothing that I can think of that's, that's more common in the West at least, than the desire to be extraordinary or to be special. Um, and, and I think this kind of obsession gives us a, a odd relationship to other people, right? Because if the ideal is the extraordinary or the, or the special, then, then who are these people around us who are not extraordinary or special? Like, what is their value? Um, and then also, you know, what is your own value? So, until you achieve this extraordinariness, you are, uh, less than, which I think is, is unhelpful, um, in, in a lot of ways (laughs) . Um, we also, we also, like, uh, one of the other kind of boring things about the desire to be extraordinary is, uh, that, that (laughs) , that we all basically want to be special in the same ways.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Like, we want to be more famous, we want to be more rich, we want to be more powerful, right? There's very few of us for, who are like, "I'm going to be extraordinarily, uh, loving or kind or caring." You know, like, uh, there, there's not a lot of that. I mean, there's a lot of people saying that, right? But, but they're saying it loudly and, uh, in, in a way that, that makes it look like maybe they want, uh, fame more than-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Yes.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... actual, uh, uh, caring, right? So, um, a- a- and actually, one, one of the things that, that kind of I, I anchor to on, on this one is, um, it comes from, from Jack Kerouac. And I, I, I was read this, this must have been 10 years ago now, this, this, uh, j- uh, Brain
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
That sounds, or that…
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Pickings posted a, a bunch of writing advice from, from Jack Kerouac. Uh, and he, and, and it was just tw- uh, three words. "Respect your experience." Um, and, you know, so, so Em- Emerson later put it this way. You know, he said, "Trust thyself. Every heart vibrates to that iron string." Um, and so, th- the paradox here is that if we can drop this need to be special and extraordinary, we then free ourselves to be more creative, productive, happy, and authentic. Um, so if... Because, because we don't have... Our, our sense of what is ordinary, right-... is our life as it is. And the, the need to be extraordinary then l- puts this layer of disrespect on our life as it is, right? Um, so we come from this anxious place of needing this very specific, very, like we talked about, boring vision of a world, of, of, of a new world for ourselves. But if we're able to take a step back, we can free ourself from kind of that mimetic, you know, like mimetic desire of, of needing what our neighbors have to actually doing the things that are most energizing and exciting and meaningful for us. And this, you know, I return to that Emerson line, "My life is for itself and not for a spectacle." Um, so, like, we're not here to, to create a life that somebody can go write a book about and, and make it a bestseller, right? Like, that's not the point of living. I mean, you know, again, like, I'm not moralizing. Maybe that's ... but that sounds like a, like an absolute nightmare to me. Um, like, m- the, the point is to craft a life that is lived beautifully and well, and, uh, you know, for me, it, it's, it's generously and, and, uh, uh, healthfully, you know, healthfully, just a good life, right? And, um, and you want that to be an internal experience. Um, so, so yeah. And I think, I think, uh, if you can release even just trying to, you know, release this desire for specialness, um, it can be, it can be really liberating.
- CWChris Williamson
That sounds, or that might be taken by some people as accepting a life of mediocrity.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's ... So that's the, uh, that's the big caveat on this one, is that where, where I was ... when I was sending this around to people, you know, the, the, the article too, to get, you know, put ... you know, that was a big place for pushback, is, you know, uh, you know, we don't want a mediocra- mediocre life, right? Um, and so th- the point isn't at all that we shouldn't strive, right? Uh, the first thing we talked about was, was struggle. And the point isn't at all to, to be small. The point is to be more yourself, and to ... Um, Kevin Kelly actually has this really great advice to, um, you know, find, you know, find the thing that only you can do, and do that. But you're never gonna do that if you're trying for some very ... you know, if you're, if you're, if you're starting trying to be extraordinary, right? Um, uh, uh, at least I, I don't think so. I hadn't seen it. The people who end up doing the most interesting, fascinating, unexpected things are those who, who, who find some interest that they have in their life, and then follow that, and follow that, and follow that, and, and amplify that. Um, and, and that's where I think some of the most interesting art comes from, some of the most, like, touching, uh, uh, you know, uh, (sighs) uh, speeches or, or writing, right? Like, um, someone who, who, who sets out to write a book trying to communicate as authentically as possible their idea of, you know, uh, of something is g- it's going to be much more pleasant to read, and, and paradoxically probably have a higher chance of success because they can actually speak to s- to someone, than someone who starts out to write, like, the, a magnum opus.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
I'm gonna write my great work, right? And people get ... You can get away with that, like, if you're already super experienced and ridiculously skilled, uh, or, or have some, like, genius intellect, right? But, like, um, especially in, in starting, starting out, I think, you know, if you start out from a foundation of respect for your life, your worldviews, um, you're going to, you're going to create something much more stable than if you start from a place of, "Well, uh, my view doesn't matter until I achieve X," right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Like, um, or I get X followers, or, you know. Um, so I think ... A- and I think the, the shortcut there is to respect your own life, respect your own struggles. And respect doesn't mean give in to, right? Like, so, so, uh, if somebody's ... Uh, respecting your experience, i- i- if you're just struggling with overeating or, or, uh, laziness, whatever it is, um, it doesn't, it doesn't mean, um ... It d- it d- it doesn't mean that you should just keep doing that, right? Like, obviously, you don't ... That's like, your deep desire is not to continue on that path. But to look at it, respect it. Um, it actually reminds me that Carl Rogers, this psychologist, has this line. He says that, "The curious paradox is that when I accept myself as I am, then I can change." Um-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
And I think that's what this shift is about, right? Um, if the extraordinary is what, who we are not, um, then embracing the ordinary and, uh, is, is, you know, embracing who we are now, even if we want to grow.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
So it's a long way of getting there, but I think ... Does that ... I-
- CWChris Williamson
I love it. I lo- I re- I really like the idea of, um, wanting an extraordinary life being disrespectful to the, the person that you are. Um, I think it's, I think it's very, very true as well, you know. Any of the, the, the sort of type A people as well that are listening, um, you'll know what it's like. You can do the thing that you said that you were going to do and still feel dissatisfaction in having achieved it, because that's only the thing that you did at your level of doing.... rather than it being, "Well, like that person's obviously doing it at that level. I know I did it my way," or, "I- I did that workout, I ran the- the marathon in four hours and 10 minutes, but Eliud Kipchoge ran it in two hours." You know? So like, "Who- who the fuck am I? Like, it was all right." But you never actually allow yourself to, um, pat yourself on the back for your own accomplishments, because there's always this desire for more. It's the- it's the inner soul equivalent of a materialist wealth mindset. You know? It's like th- this sort of hedonic treadmill for self-worth, almost. Um-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm. And it's constraining, right? Like, it- it narrows your vision, um, which, you know, like in- (sighs) in certain types of athletics can be really helpful, but in a more kind of like open world game, if you will, it- it's way less helpful. Because like we talked about earlier, you can get stuck very easily o- uh, on the wrong hill. Uh, you can- you- you know, you can get- you can- you can win the game and then realize you were playing the wrong game the whole time.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, man. So, um, we've gone through the- the four different layers. I want to revisit my favorite passage, uh, from the blog, and then I'm going to get you to give everyone who's listening some, uh, tips and some advice on how to, uh, sustain change. We've red-pilled them, but what- wh- you know, what are some of the next actions that they can take as they move forward? Also going to give you an opportunity to, um, uh, make any changes that you- you've changed, you've, uh, altered your mindset on in the last four years since then. But this is my favorite passage, and this was kind of the one I think that made me really fall in love with the article. So, "My biggest fear is to live a life I regret. It's easy to fall into the trap Proust is talking about and spend life blindly chasing something you never actually wanted. Blindly following your desires makes you a slave to your impulses, slave to the assumptions of those around you, the advertisements you're exposed to, and the confused chemical signals of your body. Our default is to spend our life as rats, blindly chasing the next dopamine hit. This isn't a setting easily adjusted, but it's worth shifting our aims and becoming fully human. If we don't pause and ask ourselves what we want to want, we will spend our lives focused on those unhealthy aims defined for us by others and the worst parts of ourselves. We will pass these bad assumptions about life onto our children and loved ones. We will reinforce these boring, desperate defaults in everyone we encounter. To achieve freedom, we must be able to think for ourselves. If we don't cut to the core and program our wants, our desires, then our best-case scenario is to be the most successful, rich, or famous slave. If we never peer into our programming, then we may end up being the cleverest rat, but that's hardly worth celebrating. Asking yourself what you want to want can help you avoid wanting the wrong things." That's it, man. You nailed it with that. It's so good.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Thank you, sir. Yeah, that- that- I- I think that- that summary did (laughs) yeah, makes me want to ask the question.
- CWChris Williamson
Man, so good. Anyway, so we are moving on. First things first, what have you changed your mind about on this article since you did it? Uh, y- may- maybe nothing, but have you changed your mind on anything?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
So you gave me... Yeah, y- I- I love this opportunity to get to- to revisit this. Um, and- and there's obvi- there's a- there's a lot of little things I've changed as a writer, of course, but the- the only big shift that I would make, and- and this is purely a, I think, uh, phase of life situation, is, um, that I would focus more on shifting into things being nourishing or wholesome in the wro- long run for life, rather than kind of emphasizing the- the struggle, um, throughout. Uh, and, uh, s- so I think that would be- that would be like a big, uh, that would be just a- a- a tonal shift, um, because I think I- I- I... What- what comes off and what I- what I think I- I- you know, and it depends how old you are, right? So like, a 22-year-old i- is probably needs like the warrior mindset, right? Like, you're fighting, you're- you're- you- you- you... It feels good to be pushing against something constantly, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, but then you get a little bit older, maybe you have k- like, uh, things- things shift. And so I think that, you know, the- the tone, and this is why I think self-reliance is so important in- in asking questions like this, right? Like, the whole point of this is to explore your desires. If you were to choose your desires, what would they be? Um, and- a- and yeah, so- so- so for me now, the things that resonate more are- are pushing more towa- towards nourishing, wholesome, kind of sustainable shifts. Um, I'd also- I'd also add, I think- I think there's a lot of value to accepting current desires, like we just talked about in the- the- you know, the- the ordinary, um, and- and doing more subtle work in uncovering our desires. So, um, so we- we talked about the accepting quite a bit. It was, you know, the Carl Rogers line, "The curious paradox is that when I accept myself as I am, then I can change." So- so although we're talking about shifting very deep parts of ourselves, we have to simultaneously acknowledge and accept those things. Um, and then also, I- I think I find shadow work really, really interesting. And that's basically, you know, it- it, for our purposes here, finding desires that aren't quite obvious. Um, and so- so, uh ...Robert Bly offers a really practical example of this in his book, uh, A Little Book of the Human Shadow. Um, he, he suggests that we think about someone that you really hate. You can do this right now. Like, uh, think about someone you, you really dislike, who rubs you the wrong way, or who just drives you insane, right? Um, and, and you, you probably think about this person, "I am not like that, and my whole purpose in existing is to be not like that," right? So, um, a- a- and then, you know, take a step further. Think about the traits that make you hate them the most, the ones that get under your skin the most. And if we're being honest, if we do this with a little bit of humility, um, we can pro- probably find pieces in ourself, um, desires that we have, that we really don't like, right? So we can find... The things that we hate most in others tends to be the, um, kind of, uh, unseen or rejected pieces of ourself. Um, and I think... So I think that's a, that's really interesting practice. Um, another source for, for shadow, uh, shadow work, shadow hunting, um, is Dave Chapman, who's the author of the site Meaningness, but he has a, he has another site called, uh, Buddhism for Vampires. Um, and so, so a- another suggestion for c- finding these kind of, uh, hidden desires, um, is to pay attention to kind of weaker wants or desires that you would normally not act on at all, that kind of are just like a passing, you know, a passing wind, um, and grab hold of them. And, um, you know, he, he calls these veilities. Um, Emerson might call them a whim. And, you know, like so, so if we're trying to discover what we really want o- out of life or, or, you know, what, what do you, you know, what do you really want? What do you want to learn? You know, even if you're just looking to learn about yourself a bit more. Um, you know, uh, Em-
- 1:15:00 – 1:27:35
Mm-hmm. …
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Emerson said about this kind of, uh, shadow hunting that, uh, you know, he says he hopes that this is better than a whim at last, but we cannot spend the day in explanation. So I think our, uh, our talkative minds will often reject our actual wants. And then because we've rejected our true natural and maybe more wholesome desires that just happen we, we're repressing for, for one reason or another, maybe it's societal norms or it's inconvenient or whatever, those are then hidden and replaced by less nourishing, less wholesome desires.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Um, so I think, um, I think, you know, this isn't something we talked about a lot, but like actually finding your true desires, um, would, would have been worth, um, exploring.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, let's do it.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(clears throat)
- CWChris Williamson
We've still got time, man. Before we move onto that actually, I want to, I want to say about that that, um, the lowest lower level of stimulus thing that I mentioned that allowed me to appreciate the trees on my street or the-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Ah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... made you, made you focus on your leaf for 15 minutes.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I think that ties in... It's the ordinary versus extraordinary thing. And by thinking that life should be grander than it is, we almost feel a little bit embarrassed or, or shameful of some of the wants that we have. So for instance, I hid my intellectual curiosity for probably the best part of a decade, from when I got to uni and became a club promoter and was like big dick on campus, all this stuff, uh, until pretty much until just after Love Island when I got delivered that fatal dose of contrast between me and the guys who were the persona I was trying to play. Um, but I was, I was like asha- not ash- yeah, kind of ashamed of it, just a little bit like I didn't think that that was the vision of what a young man was supposed to be. I was around a very alpha male type A mentality. Um, and I just meant that I didn't allow myself to indulge in that. I didn't want to admit the fact that I watched... I had a desire to watch space documentaries on a nighttime. I was embarrassed about my empathy. I thought that it was a sh- a sign of weakness, the fact that I, I genuinely feel discomfort when I see someone else suffer, and I can't get over that. I was like, "Oh, that's not what a, a courageous alpha male does. That's not what a man's supposed to do. They're supposed to be able to deal with things," you know? Like so all of these different bits and pieces, I had covered over with mimetic or, um, kind of unwanted wants.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
The want to be seen as a, a, a powerful man, the want to be seen as a capable businessman, the want, the want to be seen as someone who... A, a, a man who is, um, attractive to women because of the stereotypical characteristics that he thinks women find attractive. You know, roll the clock forward as much as you want. Uh, and it's only upon doing sufficient introspective work to find out what my truth was, that I've actually been able to embrace now that not only as tongue-in-cheek desires, but as proud parts of me. Like the fact that I have crushing, crippling empathy is sometimes (laughs) , sometimes inconvenient, but I'm proud of it.... you know? Like, why shouldn't I be proud about the fact that I desperately care or that sometimes when I see a dog that looks really happy, I want to cry? Like, why should I feel upset about that? Why should I feel embarrassed about that? Why should I feel embarrassed about the fact that I've got this intellectual curiosity? Because if I hadn't allowed that to remanifest itself, I'd be two and a half million downloads less without a podcast or a project that I care about. But the fact that I did do that has permitted me to do this thing and meet all these cool people and connect with a, an audience that loves the project, and then find random strangers on the other side of the planet like yourself, get a piece of work that I think is fantastic, and then use my show as a delivery system to then try and distribute that understanding and learning to make thousands and thousands of other people's lives better. You know? Like, if that's not an argument for trying to deprogram the wants that you haven't worked out if you wanted to want, like, I, I don't know what it is.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Yeah. That's, that's incredible transformation. What do you ... Um, what was the, the impetus or what did those first steps look like? Um, were they big? Were they small? You know, like, uh, was it, was it, you know, letting yourself put on that space document or like what were some of the-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... do you remember some of those like early ...
- CWChris Williamson
Um, yeah. Good, good question again with that. So I think, um, I think that starting to see ... It was, it was a good time for it to happen because it was the advent of the Jordan Peterson era, and-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it was a time when sort of 2017 just as he was coming to the forefront, just as Rogan was really, really starting to pick up speed and you could learn from someone like Ben Shapiro or Sam Harris or Bret or Eric Weinstein or, uh, y- y- Jordan Peterson, whoever it might be. There was like tons of mindful content floating around. And, um, you were just able to swim in it, man. So that was, that was a big part for me. Like learning to tell the truth was the, the single biggest change that I made, um, and hopefully today we have encouraged people that there is huge, huge value in understanding what their own truth is. So you'd mentioned, uh, you, you, you'd mentioned something that you thought that we could revisit, and then I also want to, um, also want to look at some of the tactics that people can use to reinforce wanting the right things or how we can make ourselves want the right things.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Uh, so, so I was actually talking, the, the examples of the shadow work. So the, um, you know, uh, recognizing that, uh, the, the people who you hate the most likely are useful mirrors to find desires in yourself that you've repressed, um, and the exercise of kind of paying attention as closely as you possibly can to whims or kind of d- um, little quiet desires that you, you, you normally would just ignore and kind of look into and give those a chance. Those are the two kind of strategies-
- CWChris Williamson
Ah.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
... that I would, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
I knew you forgot. I knew you forgot, man. I've got another one for you.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Real s- real small one. Um, anyone who's thinking, "Oh, like, this all sounds well and good, Chris, like it's cool that you found a passion, um, but I don't know what mine is," think back to what you did between the age of eight and 14 for fun. Think about some of the stuff that you did there. There's this example, the world's best color picker. It's a lady, and, um, she got asked on this interview, so like, so she makes these amazing designs for, um, different clothing companies or different interior design, uh, companies and stuff like that, with selecting just the quite, the right shade of, of pastel pink to go with this shade of pastel blue and blah, blah, blah. And, um, somebody asked her on an interview, "So what are your qualifications? Why are you so good at this?" And she said, "Well, I, I, you know, I've done a lot of f- continuous professional, professional development," this, that, and the other, "but really, um, it all stems from when I was nine, and for Christmas I got the biggest box of Crayola from my mom and dad that I could get, and, and just ever since then. You know, I've just loved matching colors. I've loved doing that." And I think back to my childhood between the age of eight and 14, and what was I spending a lot of time doing? I'm an only child. So I was listening to audiobooks, like audio tapes.
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like His Dark Materials by, um, Philip Pullman, like 40 tapes. 40 double-sided-
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... tapes back to back across three tomes, like 60, 70 hours. And what is the 2020 audiobook if it's not a podcast?
- KEKyle Eschenroeder
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So that's a good, that's a good way, I think, to kind of look at some of the things that used to bring you joy, especially if you've spent a long time perhaps, um, mapping over that with societal norms and path of least resistance and all that stuff. Think back to what you did as a kid. Think back to the stuff that you enjoyed.
Episode duration: 1:34:56
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