Inside the Mind of a Hostage Negotiator - Scott Walker

1. 0:00 – 3:46

   Scott’s Unique Background

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      What is your background?

   2. SWScott Walker0:02

      My background is a kidnap for ransom negotiator or a crisis response consultant, as it's known in the industry.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:12

      Kidnap for ransom?

   4. SWScott Walker0:14

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:14

      Is that a, is that a specific subset of kidnap negotiating?

   6. SWScott Walker0:18

      Well, it also includes things like extortion as well in the typical, you know, for a shop owner that the mafia used to get involved in, or maybe a cyberattack. Um, but yeah, pretty much every single kidnapping would involve some kind of ransom demand, hence kidnap for ransom.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:36

      Interesting. Uh, yeah, i- it's... I suppose it's... Wh- when you think about kidnapping, I- I- I... In movies, there's kidnaps that happen because there's just evil people out there.

   8. SWScott Walker0:47

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:47

      But I suppose that... Is it right to guess that in the real world, most kidnaps, the kidnapper actually has some sort of end goal that they want? They're not just doing it because they're a bastard?

   10. SWScott Walker0:58

       (laughs) There may be elements of that. But at the end of the day, it's pretty much a business transaction. Now, if you're the hostage or you're the family of the hostage, it may be more than that. But in reality, and certainly from my perspective as the negotiator, this is just a business deal we need to find a solution to as quickly as possible.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:20

       How many people were at your level, uh, when you were doing this role?

   12. SWScott Walker1:28

       Well, I'm not sure if it's true, but we were told on day one that more people have been to the International Space Station than do this as full-time tier one professional negotiators. So it certainly sounded good. It stroke our egos. Um, which actually made this a very small team of highly switched-on, uh, people who've got each other's backs but become very, very proficient in that certain skill set.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:57

       What is the avatar? What's the classic British negotiator person? Where are they from? What's their background? What's their personality like? What's their demeanor? All that.

   14. SWScott Walker2:11

       Yeah. Well, funny enough, when I was at school, I went to see the career advisor. He then go, "Scott, you could be a train driver, a pilot, a negotiator." So most people, it's their second or third career, whether or not it's in the military, as an investigative journalist, and mine was as a cop. So I was a detective for 16 years. I had a great time. Loved pretty much every single day as a detective at Scotland Yard. And actually looking back, my career was very much around people. So whether or not it was running informants or taking a bit of time out to become an int- I was an interrogator in Iraq for the military for a while, um, or as a negotiator. And so it's all this... just really interesting what makes people tick, what makes them feel, think, feel, and act the way they do, particularly in times of stress, crisis, uncertainty, pretty much like the times we're living in now, to be honest. (laughs) Um, and so having done that career, and I wanted a career change, I'd just turned 40. Some people call it midlife crisis, they go and buy a Ferrari or marry a model. I go and join a kidnap negotiation firm and have a, a second career, and, um, I left on the Thursday the police and on the Monday I joined, and they said, "Scott, yeah, we're gonna give you the best negotiation training course in the world," which actually (laughs) in reality turned out to three live kidnappings that I was shadowing, one in the Philippines and two in Nigeria. So welcome to-

   15. CWChris Williamson3:42

       Right. Yeah, a baptism of fire, I think-

   16. SWScott Walker3:44

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson3:45

       ... it's called. Is

2. 3:46 – 7:21

   The Reality of Kidnap Response

   1. CWChris Williamson3:46

      it as glamorous as it is in the movies?

   2. SWScott Walker3:49

      It depends if you think hanging around for a couple of weeks, just sitting around is glamorous. I don't know. It depends what your (laughs) idea of fun is. Uh, it's one of those things where there's lots of... We call it hurry up and wait. Okay. So in the first 24 hours of a kidnapping taking place, you need to get on the plane or get on the phone, reassure the family, reassure the company, "Right, we've got this. This is gonna be the strategy. I'm here to advise you. I'm not gonna tell you what to do or make decisions, but I'll give you some, uh, recommendations, pros and cons, et cetera." And then we all wanna take a nice, big deep breath and just relax as much as possible. We've got our strategy. We know what we're gonna say on the first call. Now we just need to look after ourselves and get into some kind of rhythm, and that's fine. Everybody gets used to that for the week, first week, 10 days whilst we're waiting for a call, and the phone does ring, and then it's like headless chickens and running around and the heartbeat's going... But having done it quite a few times now, even at times I may be like a swan gliding gracefully but underneath, (laughs) the heart's pounding. Actually, it's muscle memory. You go, "Right, okay, I've been here before. We know what we need to do. Trust the training, trust the process," and we're off and running.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:11

      You, as a negotiator, you just insinuated that, that not only you're dealing with the kidnapper but you're also potentially dealing internally with, uh, s- stakeholders in what is, what has been kidnapped. Is that right?

   4. SWScott Walker5:26

      Yeah. D- Dealing with the kidnappers is the easy bit.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:30

      (laughs)

   6. SWScott Walker5:30

      Actually, we, we, we, we, we call it... Honestly, it, it... I can't tell you enough, Chris, is it's the easy bit because it's a business transaction. Okay. If we mess it up, people could die, and all of the considerations which we'll go into a bit later if we get onto it, in terms of the logistics. But the crisis within the crisis, if you think about it, you've got egos, internal politics, high emotion, in probably the most stressful set of circumstances these people are ever gonna face.And so, I'm almost in the middle of this. So, it's about developing this sensory acuity. You're talking about w- you know, what is the kind of person who g- who gets into this field and is good at it? It's somebody with an antennae who can go, "Right. Something's going on with that person over there. Their, their mannerisms or their energy is not congruent with what they're saying, or they're getting a bit agitated." And so it's constantly picking up on these cues so you can then, A, make sure that you're balanced yourself emotionally, but more importantly, you can somehow reduce their anxiety and stress and overwhelm to bring about that objective, rational thinking, which is what we want. We want cool, calm heads, which is why I named the book Order Out of Chaos, 'cause that's ultimately what this is, is we wanna bring some order out of what is a very chaotic and stressful circumstances.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:57

      Maybe it is more like the Hollywood movies than you thought then. Because in the movies, there's always... I- it's not just the politic with the kidnapper. It's the internal strife that's going on, because the chief of police has come down, and the CIA and the FBI, they both believe that this is their case. And who's this renegade guy? Like, why is, why is Dwayne The Rock Johnson, why has he taken this role or whatever, whatever it might be. So-

   8. SWScott Walker7:19

      It's all of that. All of

3. 7:21 – 15:36

   A Negotiator’s View of Human Nature

   1. SWScott Walker7:21

      that.

   2. CWChris Williamson7:21

      ... what do you think that negotiators know about human nature that most normal people don't?

   3. SWScott Walker7:30

      I think there's an unbelievable resilience mentally and emotionally within all of us. I've seen people held captive for months at a time who come out pretty much unscathed. It's because their mindset, the way they frame this, the meaning they give in their circumstances, has meant they can come out and actually live just as good, if not a better life, as a result of their experience. And actually, no matter what is thrown in front of us, the challenges, the issues, the problems, actually, we're more than capable of overcoming them. You know, there's nothing that is insurmountable. And actually, we're very adaptable, agile creatures, if we can just turn down that lousy narrative, that lousy story we've got going on inside of our heads about, you know, "We're not good enough. It's not gonna work. Blah, blah, blah."

   4. CWChris Williamson8:29

      Talk to me about some of the highest pressure situations that you've been in. A illustrious career of dealing with crazy different circumstances.

   5. SWScott Walker8:39

      Probably my first case actually is when I was at Scotland Yard, and it's based in a, in a cramped flat in London. And, uh, one of the younger sons had been taken by a, a rival drug gang. And so after a couple of days, we're in this small flat, lots of family members around, high emotion. And we're coaching, myself and my colleague are coaching the other brother as the communicator, 'cause obviously we don't wanna advertise that police are involved. And then the threats start coming in. And there's a bit of... A- almost like a mock execution in the background. We can hear the, uh, the hostage i- in a bit of pain. And then the kidnappers say, "Right, we know where you are." And they gave the address. "And we know you're working with the police. We're gonna sp- uh, send some guys round to spray the place with a MAC-10 machine gun, and they're on their way right now." And I'm thinking, "Right, okay." A MAC-10 machine gun is like the weapon of choice of gang members in London. It's one of the most deadliest weapons you can ever use, particularly in the hands of people who aren't very good with using it. I'm thinking, "Hmm, this is an interesting set of circumstances to be in here." And I looked at my colleague and he looks at me and we're like, "Mm, is this a bluff? Are they just trying to, trying to have us over here?" But we didn't take any chances. So very quickly, because at the time, I'm a member of the biggest gang in London, the Metropolitan Police, so we actually got two big armed response vehicles parked right out-

   6. CWChris Williamson10:09

      We've got more guns than you.

   7. SWScott Walker10:10

      Yeah, and there was literally six heavily armed SO19 officers there. And actually that blew our cover away 'cause we wanted to be discreet. But far better that than, you know, a family full of, um, uh, victims in a, in a flat somewhere, including myself and my colleague. So that was the first-

   8. CWChris Williamson10:29

      How did that end up getting resolved?

   9. SWScott Walker10:31

      ... rescue. Oh, in the end, we managed to get the, uh, the brother back. Um, and that's actually interesting. In the UK or the US, in kidnappings or hostage takings, normally there's some kind of hostage rescue, okay, because we got the best teams, best SWAT teams in the world. Whereas in other parts of the world, I'd always stress for a negotiated settlement here, because there's a 93% chance of a successful resolution that way. I would not trust many, many governments and units around the world to conduct a hostage rescue. It's just fraught with too many dangers. But in the UK, that's pretty much how they will, they will pan out. And so our job is actually see if we can negotiate their release, but it's also to buy time as well.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:21

       What was that story of a pirate hijacked ship thing that you were involved in?

   11. SWScott Walker11:30

       Okay. Th- th- there's, there's been a few. Um... Well, there's one where, um, six hostages got taken. Um, and they got taken off this ship and into a West African country, which won't be a surprise to people. And, um...

   12. CWChris Williamson11:50

       (laughs) Yeah.

   13. SWScott Walker11:53

       A- and the conversation, we didn't hear anything for about ten days, two weeks, and then negotiations start. Um, but then after one point, because the kidnappers weren't getting what they wanted, you know, they came in at $3 million or something, and we were offering at that point about $70,000, 'cause it's about managing expectations.Um, and after a point, the kidnappers got really frustrated. And then when we're on the call one day, the guy I'm using as a communicator because the language barrier, he says, "Well, you know, you must look after our crew, my friends. They're your responsibility whilst you've got them held hostage." And then there's this really booming voice from the kidnapper on the other side going, "No! They're yours! We want the money by the end of the week, or they will die." And you could hear a pin drop. That is, until (laughs) this guy, Mr. John, I'll call him, his fist came banging down on the table. And I realize in that moment, it's about to come my way as well. And he turns around and says, "How can you sit there, Mr. Scott, so calm when my friends are gonna die?" Now, I know they're not gonna die. I know full well this is just a tactic. But he stands up and walks out. And in that moment, I know right okay, I need to take a bit of initiative here and a calculated risk, which is I need... I can leave the kidnappers. They're good for 24, 36, 48 hours. We're in a good position with them, in terms of the negotiation. My primary aim is to look after Mr. John, because if I can't get him on board, if I can't get him to cooperate, if I can't reestablish trust with him, we're gonna go nowhere and the hostages are gonna die. So I'm there sitting down with him, doing all of the, you know, all the active listening, all the gen- I mean, genuinely empathizing with him and validating where he's at. And then, you know, the next day or the day after, he, um, he comes in, showered, shaved, new man, and then we get a deal and the, and the hostages are released.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:52

       I, dude, I'm so fascinated by the fact that most of your job isn't negotiating with the kidnappers, but it's negotiating with the internal politics. I think that's such a, such a really great takeaway. You know, it, it's so, um, representative or symbolic of many of the challenges that we come up against, whether it be in our personal lives, whether it be in business dealings, that we always see the world outside as the adversary or as the enemy.

   15. SWScott Walker14:21

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson14:22

       Uh, there's this really great story from, uh, Winston Churchill, and he is in the '40s taking a, uh, young MP through the houses of Parliament, and he's explain, "Oh, this is the fucking toilets, and this is where, you know, we, we have lunch, and this is..." Whatever. And they enter into, uh, the chambers. And this young MP, who's sort of all full of testosterone, he starts gesturing at the other benches and he keeps calling them "the enemy." And Churchill turns to him and says, "That's the opposition, dear boy. The enemy is behind you."

   17. SWScott Walker14:57

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson14:57

       And I think it's just so perfectly symbolic of how we become our own worst enemies, uh, day-to-day in our own lives. Uh, we don't help ourselves the way that we should do. Um, most of the business problems that I see, uh, occur due to inefficiencies or lack of, uh, good communication and, and politics and strife that go on inside of a company, not between companies.

   19. SWScott Walker15:21

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson15:21

       Like, you know that the people that are out there have, uh, th- there is something that they need from you, there is something that they want, and the parameters are relatively fixed. It's all of the myriad different dials and knobs that are going on inside. Those are the, the

4. 15:36 – 18:20

   Differences Between Extortion Vs Human Kidnapping

   1. CWChris Williamson15:36

      tides that are turning. So, o-one of the other things you mentioned before, which I think is a, a really, really interesting, uh, line of this, you've got certain types of kidnapping situations held for ransom where it's an individual, but then there are other ones where company data presumably, um...

   2. SWScott Walker15:56

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:56

      There was that one, uh, what was that pipeline in America that got done and it was for Bitcoin?

   4. SWScott Walker16:01

      Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson16:02

      Um, so you have scenarios like this. Wh- what is the difference in the, um... Uh, well, what are the differences between those two different kinds of scenarios?

   6. SWScott Walker16:12

      Okay. Let's take the cyber extortion, for example. It, it is normally a reputational risk then. I appreciate that's there in kidnapping, but from a cyber extortion, normally data has been extracted and/or encrypted as well. And usually there's some reputational risk to the company the longer it continues. Or they just can't do business. They're gonna lose money as well. It changes slightly when you're dealing with maybe healthcare, which we've seen now a lot of ransomware attacks over the last few years. There's WannaCry and others. Um, and so it's slightly different there. Whereas in a kidnap negotiation, there's only gonna be the hostage. They can't copy them. They can't keep clones of them. So, when we negotiate the release and we've physically got the hostage, we know we're good. Whereas if we pay a ransom to an extortionist in a cyber case, okay, the business model is they're more often than not gonna keep their word, 'cause no one's gonna pay them again in future, but there's no guarantees they haven't made a copy or kept a copy, uh, back from releasing it on the dark web or to sell it to competitors. So, it's slightly nuanced there. But like in anything I say to the clients, there's no guarantees here. There's never gonna be 100%. You just need to, on the balance of probabilities, do a, a risk cost-benefit analysis and work out what you wanna do. Do you wanna negotiate and engage? But this is costing you maybe, let's say, half a million dollars a day in lost opportunity cost, but how much is the extortion demand for?

   7. CWChris Williamson17:52

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SWScott Walker17:52

      "Oh, well, we don't know. We've not checked." "O- okay, well, maybe we wanna check." "Oh, it's for 20,000 euros." Okay, well, my opinion, my advice to you is, but it's up to you, you may wanna consider paying that-

   9. CWChris Williamson18:03

      Yeah.

   10. SWScott Walker18:04

       ... if it's costing you half a million. "Oh, okay." Um, okay, I'm simplifying the example there, but it's all these things that need to weigh up. And actually, can we make sure that the...... our IT system is clean and doesn't have any kind of malignant malware put in there, for example.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:19

       Have you watched

5. 18:20 – 22:16

   Reacting to Apple TV’s ‘Hijack’

   1. CWChris Williamson18:20

      Hijacked on Apple TV?

   2. SWScott Walker18:24

      I have.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:25

      Of course you have. I absolutely love this series at the moment. I think maybe five episodes are out, or-

   4. SWScott Walker18:32

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:32

      ... or six episodes are out at the moment as we're doing it. Um, so for the people that don't know, Idris Elba, handsome Black man, gets on a plane from Dubai to the UK, and, uh, the plane gets hijacked by some, some bastards, uh, most of whom are from London. But one of whom's a Geordie, so I- I'm, I'm fully supportive of her. And, uh, Idris then begins, he is a, uh, I think he's a negotiator for high-stakes mergers and acquisitions and stuff like that.

   6. SWScott Walker18:59

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:59

      Sometimes hostile takeovers and stuff too. Uh, I, have you noticed in that series, how accurate do you think they have portrayed the industry that you know so well? Do you think Idris is, is doing a good job with his negotiation skills?

   8. SWScott Walker19:16

      (laughs) Funny enough, I was interviewed by the Daily Telegraph, the newspaper here of the UK, last week on this, around... As an entertainment value, it is outstanding. It's exceptional writing. You know, bearing in mind I do this for a living, I've been involved in one hijacking before, I'm still hooked, okay, as a series. But that's where it ends.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:39

      (laughs) Oh, no, Idris.

   10. SWScott Walker19:41

       Y- Y- The absurdity level is as high as the altitude of the plane, okay? Because if I'm on, if I'm a pass- if I'm Idris Elba on board, okay, I mean, I probably really wouldn't be doing the things he's doing. I'd be making sure I'm staying calm, I'm reassuring other people, I'm not gonna antagonize the hijackers, let alone take the gun off them and hand it back and all the sort of stuff he's done. That said, if it was a kind of 9/11 scenario where I think, "Hey, they're gonna crash this plane," then that's a different situation, that's a different scenario. And I think actually, a lot of people on board flights now would, would do something about it. If they thought, "They're gonna crash this plane," there'd be a bit of a muting on the plane, I reckon. But in terms of negotiation, no. That said, what he is good at is getting into the minds of the hijackers. What makes them tick? Where's the leverage? Which he did, and without spoiling anything for people who haven't seen it, in terms of the relationship between the brothers on the plane, for example. And so, that is one of the first golden rules of negotiation, is, "Well, actually, I'm not gonna be as arrogant enough to think it's all about me. I need to understand what makes the other person tick. What are their beliefs, motivations, needs that are there, often below the surface, but I need to get curious to find them out."

   11. CWChris Williamson21:05

       Mm.

   12. SWScott Walker21:05

       So that's that bit. Another bit I'd say about the series is in terms of the, uh, the chaos that's going on back in London in trying to manage it, that is normally how the first few hours of any kind of crisis looks, sounds, and feels like, until it gets into a, a steady rhythm.

   13. CWChris Williamson21:24

       Yeah. Again, you know, uh, hierarchies of power, it's like the foreign secretary's getting involved, the home secretary's getting involved, people are getting ransom notes. And, um, a- a- again, I suppose it, it doesn't matter. E- e- each time that a kidnapping occurs, there is only a very small number of people that have done this before, you, your support team. But if... unless you're really, really reckless, it's probably the first time you've been kidnapped, and it's probably the first time that your family has had to deal with a kidnapping. Which means that it must feel a little bit like Groundhog Day every single time, having to go through this same rigmarole of, "Okay, so step one, we speak and explain. Step two, we calm down and, and contain. Step three, we do the whatever, whatever, whatever." Um, and yeah, the, um, externalities internally of that. Okay,

6. 22:16 – 28:50

   Core Components of Successful Negotiating

   1. CWChris Williamson22:16

      so we've, we've sort of danced around some of the stories.

   2. SWScott Walker22:19

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:19

      When it comes to the nuts and bolts of persuasion and negotiating, how do you, um, conceptualize the, the fundamentals of it? Like, what are the core components?

   4. SWScott Walker22:32

      Okay.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:32

      Or, or what is the science behind negotiating?

   6. SWScott Walker22:37

      Often people say to me, "Scott, w- what is, what is it I need to say, what can I say to get money off or get an upgrade?" And all this kind of stuff, which is a starter... I get asked all the time and I, I always turn around and go, "You're asking the wrong question, because you're wrapping it all around you and what you want, where actually, why don't you ask, 'Okay, how can I really find out what's going on with the other person or what they value the most?' Or, 'How can I listen better?'" Which goes back to the golden rule of it's not about you, you know? And it's, again, it's a cliche, but it's a cliche for a reason, seek first to understand before being understood. Um, and that way the other side will actually tell you what their pain points are, what they're looking for, what would be a good deal for them, if you listen properly. And in the book I talk about level five listening. You know, the top few levels are all about, all about you, where you're listening for the gist or you're listening waiting to talk so you can rebut what they're saying. Whereas actually we, we want to go below that and listen to the emotion, maybe the underlying emotion that's not being expressed, and then really what's their model of the world, what's their beliefs, what are their rules? And the way we do that is, yes, by asking really powerful open questions, but by some simple tools and techniques have been, that have been around for decades. You know, the, the active listening techniques such as, um, you know, you're paraphrasing or you're labeling. And this is you just being curious rather than assuming you know what they mean when they say it. And when we take-

   7. CWChris Williamson24:12

      Dig into those, dig into those techniques for me, paraphrasing and labeling.

   8. SWScott Walker24:16

      Yeah, sure.So, labeling would be saying emotional labeling. So if I'm sensing you're a little frustrated with something right now, say with this conversation, I would just say something like, "You sound a little frustrated here, Chris." Or it seems like you're a bit annoyed or it seems like I've actually missed something here. And you may go, "No, no, no. It's not that. It's this instead." Because we have a saying that we need to name it to tame it. If we can't name the emotion, we can't tame it. And it's like the big elephant in the room. You know when the emotion's there, somebody's not quite in a good place, we kinda skirt around the issue. Whereas actually, we wanna call it out. We wanna name it so we can tame it, for ourselves particularly, you know, tuning into what's going on for you, but particularly with the other person. But that's not a one-time tick box exercise. It's continuous through your negotiation or through your communication. That's the first thing. And then the paraphrasing or the summarizing is just reflecting back your understanding of what the other person is saying. And this is particularly helpful if people go on for quite a long time. I deal with my kids. I've got two teenagers, and they just like to talk and talk and talk and talk. And I have to interrupt them and go, "Okay, so what you're saying is this, this, this, and this." And they go, "Yeah, that's it." Great. So there are those two techniques, for example.

   9. CWChris Williamson25:42

      Very cool.

   10. SWScott Walker25:42

       The other thing I'll say on that actually, the other thing I'll say on that really quickly, sorry, is, again, the caveat I give to people is, again, don't use this as a tick list. "Oh, I need to use paraphrasing or minimal encouragers such as saying okay or nodding my head." I just need to just genuinely listen and be curious about the person. And they'll do a lot of that stuff automatically.

   11. CWChris Williamson26:05

       Mm. Yeah, so be led by the genuine desire to know what it is that they want. When it comes to, you, you mentioned before open questions as being one of them. What are some of your favorite questions or question types that people should use in order to find out what it is that the other person wants?

   12. SWScott Walker26:25

       Okay. It's what or, what or how questions really. You know, those seven Kipling's friends really, around, "Okay, well, what does that look like for you?" Or, "How are we gonna make that happen?" Or, "How will you know that you've got what you wanted?" People say, you know, w- some of my clients, now they'll go, "Well, I wanna, you know, I wanna lose weight." Or, "I wanna achieve this business thing." "Okay, well, how will you know then you've achieved it? What needs to happen?" So it's getting them to do the heavy lifting intellectually to work through exactly what does that look, sound, and feel like. That's what we wanna tap into really.

   13. CWChris Williamson27:04

       When I do, uh, partner negotiations for the show, and this, for the fledgling content creators that are listening, is a, a really, really great tool. If you're having a discussion with a partner, especially if it's a new one or even if it's just a renewal with an existing partner, one of the first questions I always ask to absolutely everybody is, "What would success look like?"

   14. SWScott Walker27:23

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson27:24

       And that helps me to work out, okay, th- this particular company is really, really interested in, uh, breaking into the United States market. This company is looking to improve their brand equity. This company wants to, uh, sell in 18 months time, so they're trying to drive top-line revenue. They're trying to do whatever, whatever, whatever. And it gives me so much information. But you're right as well, by saying, "What would success look like to you, what is it that you want out of this, how will you know when we have reached it?" first off, it, it does cause them to do the heavy lifting. Secondly, it protects you from making assumptions that could be incorrect. And thirdly, it actually ensures that they know what it is that they want. A lot of the time people come into a negotiation and they just, they want a thing. "I just want s- more." Uh, s- more what? What, what is it that you need? Like, and by forcing them to actually assess what it is, you create a parameter from which you can then measure performance or success.

   16. SWScott Walker28:25

       Mm. Uh, and often people haven't asked those questions of themselves in the first place.

   17. CWChris Williamson28:29

       Correct, correct, correct.

   18. SWScott Walker28:30

       You know, they want, "I want financial freedom." "Okay, to do what?" "Well, you know, just travel more, have more freedom." "Okay, well, f- what does freedom look like for you? Wh- what does that mean?" You know, those kind of questions where people go, "Oh, right, yeah, I've never really thought of that. I don't know." Okay, well, there you go.

7. 28:50 – 31:03

   Strategies to Build Rapport

   1. SWScott Walker28:50

      (laughs)

   2. CWChris Williamson28:50

      What about building rapport? Is that done through the same way, or is there a, a different strategy when it comes to that?

   3. SWScott Walker28:58

      A- a- again, rapport, without sounding to repeat myself here, it's not a tick box exercise. People think, "Oh, I've got rapport. That's it. Now I'm good." It's a continuous process of where you are in alignment with whoever you're talking to. Now, rapport can be, you could be having an argument with somebody, but you could be in rapport depending on how you're having the argument. And so it is a vital step in bringing about that cooperation or collaboration. So if you imagine at one end you've got all these active listening skills that we've touched on. You're building the empathy or you're demonstrating empathy, 'cause empathy's a doing word. You're then building the rapport, and then you're bringing a bit... You've, you've earned the right, you've earned the trust to start maybe influencing and persuading somebody to change their behavior perhaps, but ultimately to bring about cooperation and collaboration. So in the case I gave earlier, that could be Mr. John, my communicator. It could be with the kidnappers. And this is particularly powerful if you disagree with somebody that you're having a conversation with, because then it just demonstrates, A, you can get out of your own way and park your own ego. But secondly, actually, I might disagree with you, but I respect you as a person, as a human being. Therefore, I'm not a threat to you.... so you can balance your nervous system out. We haven't got to come back out fighting towards me, and then we can try and find some kind of collaboration." And, and that's how it works.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:29

      Mm. Yeah. I think it, it reminds me of that, the difference between the opposition and the enemy. That with one of them-

   5. SWScott Walker30:35

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:35

      ... y- you are playing a game, you know? The, the opposition is Roger Federer versus Novak Djokovic, right, in a game. But they're playing the game together.

   7. SWScott Walker30:43

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:43

      There are rules of the game, there is expected conduct, there is a degree of mutual respect. Each wants to win, and each would probably happily fuck the other one over to win, but at least you know kind of what to expect. It's when those rules-

   9. SWScott Walker30:54

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:54

       ... go completely out of the window and Federer jumps over the net and lamps him in the face, that's when it, it, it becomes a different sort of conversation. I'm thinking as well

8. 31:03 – 39:02

   How to Prepare for Negotiation

   1. CWChris Williamson31:03

      about, um, how people should prepare themselves before they go into a negotiation. Uh, one of my friends, Alex Hormozi, says that you would be-

   2. SWScott Walker31:12

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson31:12

      ... absolutely amazed how much better you perform with just 15 minutes of preparation before you do anything. And it's so true that the bar is set so unbelievably low and your short-term memory is really good. Even people that say that they've got shit memories, your short-term memory is awesome. You can-

   4. SWScott Walker31:30

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:30

      ... keep a hold of, you know, five things, a l- a couple of little trip wires in your mind. Someone n- knocks one of them over, "Oh, that's int- didn't I l- d- d- I know that you've got a golden retriever actually. Didn't, didn't you, you..." (babbles) And you go, "Oh, my God. Like, all of the preparation." It's like, "I read that f- 10 minutes ago." So talk to me about, uh, what people should be doing before they go into, it's a, a, a job interview, it's a renegotiation for their car deal, it's them looking to get a pay increase, it's them looking to do a complaint, it's them giving a business presentation. What are you doing, uh, in, in order to set yourself, um, physiologically, uh, to keep the nerves nice and calm, to stay cool? But, i- i- once you get in there, stuff just starts happening. It's the before time-

   6. SWScott Walker32:16

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson32:16

      ... I think where the, the highest amount of discomfort is felt.

   8. SWScott Walker32:20

      Yeah, there's a couple of parts to that. The first one is accepting that you might get a bit nervous, the emotions are gonna show up in you and the other person. This is particularly in those difficult conversations. So accept that you might be uncomfortable at times in it, and, but that's okay. And once you've done that, you know, "Well, actually I need to manage my own emotions first." And that could be some breathing techniques, f- for example, just to kind of regulate when you're in there. But once you are in there, it's, the preparation is key. And we used to call it the bunch of fives. You know, we used to have, you know, hold our hands up is five fingers, four fingers and a thumb, a bunch of fives. And they were, "Okay, what are the top three to five challenges, issues, threats, that in my case, the kidnappers or the hostage takers might levy against me as a negotiator?" If I can think about what those are ahead of time, I don't have to think on the hoof. I can actually plan my answer to that accordingly. And the same applies in any kind of business meeting or in the examples that you gave. If I can think, "Okay, what are the likely objections perhaps to me asking for a pay rise? W- what might my boss say? If I was my boss and I wanted to turn this down, what might I say?" Because by working out what these could be ahead of time means I can do my research, I can do my preparation. So when that, that question comes to you or that challenge comes to you, it doesn't take you by surprise and you can just deal with it in your flow.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:56

      Very interesting. Okay, so let's say that you're having a discussion with somebody and the emotions really do start flying-

   10. SWScott Walker34:02

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson34:02

       ... that they're a, a particularly difficult interlocutor. What can be done to bring down the volume, the intensity of that situation, both externally to them and then internally in terms of your emotional control during the, during the event?

   12. SWScott Walker34:19

       I call it the immediate action drill or the IA drill, and it's similar, I just keep in my back pocket metaphorically all the time. There's three steps to it. If I can feel this is just spiraling a bit out of control here, either for me or for them, I'll just interrupt the pattern. So if I'm sat down, I'll just stand up, take a couple of breaths. I might go outside, I'll just say, "Excuse me. I just need to go and get some fresh air." I might go for a short walk. I might just turn on some random music just to interrupt that pattern to get you out of that lousy state that, that whoever's in. And then the second thing is, is realize that that wave of emotion, the cortisol that's running through your body, (laughs) theoretically it lasts for 90 seconds. Biologically, that's all it goes through your body for when you get that trigger. Any longer, and you realize you're just press- pressing repeat inside your head on that story. So knowing that, it's tuning into your body and going, "Okay. What's showing up? Okay, there's a, there's a churning in my stomach or tension across my shoulders. I'm just gonna sit with that for a minute or so, and I'm just gonna have this complete awareness. I'm gonna drop the reason why." We call it feel the feeling and drop the story. Just really feel it. 90 seconds, two minutes tops, and then that will balance your nervous system. And then you can ask, the third step is ask some better questions. Okay, "What was all that about? Where did that come from?" And usually it's something within yourself and not the other person, which is a great insight usually. So again, it's bringing more curiosity than assumption to the table. So we interrupt the pattern, we ride the wave. Imagine you're a surfer or a skier for 90 seconds, and then you ask some really powerful questions afterwards once you're balanced. And then you can come back in, whether or not it's five minutes later, five hours or five days later, and pick up where you left off. Far better that than what usually happens, particularly in f- family set things is there's lots of naming, shaming, blaming, shouting, you know. I'm sure we've all been, been both on the receiving end and on the giving end of those.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:31

       I like "feel the feeling and drop the story." I think that's a lovely cue. And, uh, I had Sam Harris on the show not long ago. He's got this really great example he uses where he says, um, "Imagine you've just finished a hard workout and you're laid on the floor doing a sweat angel and your lungs are burning, and you're sweating, and you can taste metal in the back of your throat. Your heart rate's at 175." That is actually quite an enjoyable experience in, in-

   14. SWScott Walker36:58

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson36:58

       ... some regards because you feel proud of what you've done. You know that you've worked hard for it. Y- you are, uh, contributing to your health being better. This is something that you can be proud of. If this happened spontaneously while you were sat in traffic, you would think, "What the fuck is going on? I need to crash through all of these cars and get myself to the hospital." So, the story that you tell yourself about your experience largely determines your experience of it. And I think allowing yourself to just sit with disco- It's like, "Okay, so your heart rate's high and you, you feel flush. And? Okay, so you feel angry at this person. And?" Like, uh, there, there is... As soon as you ask that next question of, "So what?" Like, "What, what, what do, what does this mean?" It's just a sensation that's arisen. Am I able to make a better decision when I'm like this or if I'm able to get myself through the other side of this by just allowing it to wash over me? And I like the idea of, of a, uh, a surfer analogy too. You've got this concept of a red center as well.

   16. SWScott Walker37:55

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson37:55

       Is that similar?

   18. SWScott Walker37:57

       Yeah, I mean, red center physically is the geographical location where the negotiation will take place. So, it could be a family kitchen, dining table, office. But over the years, I've just thought, "Do you know what? There's more to this." It's actually s- something within all of us, deep within us, this ability to, you know, to, to rely on equanimity more than anything else, to be balanced, to be calm at the sense of a raging storm around us. Because is it fair to say that things are not going to go according to plan? Doesn't have to be in a kidnap negotiation. It could be with your kids, with traffic, with work. And so if we accept that, actually, we can tap into this inner part of us, this red center, I call it. And that's where all our tools and techniques that we've picked up over the years are just lying there, waiting for us to use them. But we just need to go looking for it, and it's there within us all the time. And so that is about being able to be calm, regulate our nervous system, and then once we've done that, reengage and do whatever it is we need to do.

   19. CWChris Williamson39:01

       Talk to me about this tension

9. 39:02 – 46:13

   Balancing Empathy & Rationality

   1. CWChris Williamson39:02

      between empathy, which is presumably-

   2. SWScott Walker39:05

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson39:05

      ... useful at understanding what the other person is feeling but being sufficiently detached that you can make rational decisions. It feels to me like there is, uh, there's a little bit of a battle going on between these two things. Too much empathy, you're so invested that now you're unable to, to do the drop the story, feel the feelings thing.

   4. SWScott Walker39:26

      Yeah, and I mentioned this in the book, the caveat around sympathy, empathy, and compassion, and there's a danger we get lost in semantics here. So, really, the way I sum it all up is empathy, particularly when I'm negotiating, it's I don't have to actually feel your pain or care about your pain actually. I just need to demonstrate I understand or I get where you're coming from and to the point where you go, "Ah, Scott gets me." And again, this is particularly powerful if we disagree on something. Now, I don't like the kidnapper. I've got nothing in common with him. He's threatening to execute the hostages, and he would if he could get away with it, and he just wants money for doing this. Now, I need to demonstrate empathy to him. Otherwise, he's not going to agree to a deal, or it's gonna take a lot longer and a lot more pain to get the deal. I don't need to sympathize with him, and I'm, I'm not necessarily need to c- uh, bring some compassion either. So, with the empathy, is that's just me demonstrating my understanding or reflecting back what the other person is feeling.

   5. CWChris Williamson40:37

      I understand. One of the other, um, ideas that I've got in my head here is that listening is a skill that can be developed. You know, as you're listening, you're being passive. You, the person is just allowing things to wash over you. But you have this conception, I think it's quite right, between proactive listening and just listening, or passive listening. And my trade is in listening, right? This is what I do. I listen, I listen to the guests. And I was really trying to reflect on what, what I try and, and pick out of, of the people that I'm listening to. It, it kind of gives me the sense that the bar is set so low for good listening that there shouldn't really be such a thing as proactive listening. The only reason that that exists is because most listening is people waiting for their turn to speak next-

   6. SWScott Walker41:24

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson41:24

      ... or getting distracted when they should actually be paying attention.

   8. SWScott Walker41:28

      Uh, uh, absolutely. It's not rocket science, but our attention span is so low now (laughs) is that we're constantly thinking, "Oh, yeah, w- we should just hurry up and get to the point. You know, I've got 13 other things I need to do in the next minute." Or the danger is the first 10 to 15 words of what you're saying, I'm now assuming I know what you mean, and I'll try and finish your sentence for you, or I'll come back with a response. Whereas, actually, we just need to perhaps slow down or, or may- or maybe just give a little breath after you've finished and then before I start talking. But we just seem to struggle to do that these days.

   9. CWChris Williamson42:07

      Yeah, I, um... You mentioned it earlier on, but it's something that I use a lot. I, I guess the audience will never actually get to be able to see this, although my editor, Dean will, and, and the guests that come on the show. If the, uh, other camera was on while the guest is talking, I would look like Churchill, the nod- Nodding Dog, because for a lot of the time, I'm just con- "Yep, yep. Keep going. I can hear you. This is good. I can do the thing. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba." And I'm just bouncing my head up and down. Um, but...... I realized, uh, first off, Oprah does it, and Oprah is a pretty good int- interviewer regardless of what you think about her politics. And secondly, if you're listening to somebody speak, especially if it is being recorded for any reason, if you have any verbal interjections, "Mm-hmm. Yeah. I understand. Okay. Da, da, da," like all of this, it kind of disrupts the listening experience. So you get to continue, "Yep, I'm here. I'm still listening to you. This is me being active. Oh, that was an interesting point," and I'll nod in a slightly different manner. Like an entire repertoire of, like, 15 different nods that I can pull out of the, out of the armory. And, um, yeah, I think the nod, a, uh, widely underused tool in the arsenal of the potential listener.

   10. SWScott Walker43:19

       (laughs) It is. And it goes back to the, the point I made at the start of the interview, whereas these techniques are great. You need to, to know the rules before you can break the rules. And what I mean by that is, if you are genuinely curious about what the other person is saying and you wanna find out w- what are... Okay, what's important to them, w- what's this about for you, I'm gonna be nodding without even realizing it. It's like mirroring body language. There's nothing more clunky, "Uh-oh, Chris has folded his arms. Okay, I need to fold my arms." It's just... No, stop. Anybody out there who's listened to any courses or read any books, just stop right now. Just take a genuine empathetic interest in the other person, and you will do that naturally. That's what I-

   11. CWChris Williamson44:04

       Da-

   12. SWScott Walker44:05

       That's what I just (laughs) wanna say on that point.

   13. CWChris Williamson44:06

       Danny Trejo, the guy that played Machete. You know him? Hollywood actor.

   14. SWScott Walker44:12

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson44:12

       Massive chest tattoo, t- terrifying, terrifying human. He was on the show last year, and he was... I, I, I asked him about his introduction into Hollywood. So he starts acting, but he's been in jail, he was a gangbanger, uh, you know, living in LA. And, um, I asked him about this transition from being a, a muggle like us to being someone that acts on the silver screen. He's opposite Nic Cage, and he's in these huge m- movies and productions. And, you know, he didn't have time to go through the myriad requisite acting schools as a kid. And Jon Bernthal went out to Russia and learned, like, ballet for a year before he even began acting, all... You know, the, um, upbringing, he didn't have it. And I asked him about what it is that he did, and he said, "Well, if the scene needs me to go in, sit down, pick up a glass of water, and take a drink, I don't act like I'm going in, sitting down, picking up a glass of water, and taking a drink. I just do it. I do the thing. I'm not pretending to do the thing, I'm not acting to do the thing, I'm just doing the thing." And there is a, uh, definitely an over-complication that a lot of people, uh, myself included, we presume that you have to go around the houses to arrive back at just being, uh, honest, I guess, truthful, aligned, w- working with integrity or virtue or whatever you wanna call it. It's like, what's the thing that you're trying to appear like you're doing? Just do that. Like, you don't need to pretend to do the thing. Like, you can just, you can just do the thing. Now, it's, there's nuances here obviously, like being interested in somebody that's boring is tough. Like, you need to pretend to be interested. But there are things that you can find that are interesting about what the person is saying. And the more that you can do that, I think you can, uh, channel your inner Danny Trejo a little bit.

   16. SWScott Walker46:01

       Yeah, I agree completely. I, I think we just need to perhaps do less. You know, we wanna stack all these great techniques, don't we? But let's just remove some of them and just do (laughs) what we need to do.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:12

       You

10. 46:13 – 51:43

    The Don’ts of Negotiation

    1. CWChris Williamson46:13

       must have a hierarchy of the biggest negotiation mistakes or the things that are able to, uh, the biggest no-nos that you would've done, whether it be high-stake stuff or small-stake stuff. Um, what are the most common errors that people make that kind of ruins a negotiation, or at least damages it for a little while?

    2. SWScott Walker46:35

       Yeah, certainly the not listening is the, is the key one. But I think when people give unsolicited advice as well and start telling other people what they should be doing, I, I, I think that, um, particularly in a, in a work environment or you're in a friend environment, somebody comes to you and wanna kinda share a problem or a challenge with you and you just give 'em loads of advice about what they need to do, that never really goes down particularly well. But the ones where I've seen it unravel really quickly is when the emotions take over. Now, we all know now that we're emotional creatures that think rather than thinking creatures that feel. We're emotional beings. This is what we do. This is how we make decisions and justify them later. But it's when it, it spirals out of control and it's the fist bang on the table or it's the verbal abuse or we make it all about ourselves and about ego and me, me, me, it just gets really messy. And as I said, in, in a kidnap scenario, people die if we mess that up. So my... Which is why I said at the beginning about the crisis within the crisis, I need to make sure that the ego-driven CEO that's got him to that top spot, the very skills actually don't come to, to bear here in this example. I need him to be low-key, really generous, team player, all that kinda stuff, where actually I wanna... I'd rather speak to somebody two, three levels below him who's engaged and wants to learn and listen. So I think that's the key one, is when we just allow that emotion to run off on a course of its own.

    3. CWChris Williamson48:12

       Looking at it from a more personal perspective for yourself, what are the strategies that you've used to overcome, uh, regrets around the way that you behaved during these sorts of interactions, um, or the, I guess, ambient anxiety when you still have a bunch of open loops? You're partway through a negotiation, you go to bed to grab a, a couple of hours before you wake up again to prep the, the communicator for whatever's going on with these Somali pirates.What are the tools that you've used to be able to give yourself as much peace of mind as you can in those interims? Or if it's after the event, to kind of be able to wash yourself of it and let go?

    4. SWScott Walker48:56

       There's two questions I ask myself. I have them written down in my journal at the back, and every time I get a new journal, I write them down just as a reminder. "So what? Now what?" And it can sound quite harsh, but actually just cuts through all the BS in all the stories. So at the end of a day where there's, uh, a courier who had the ransom money, on one case, he was supposed to call in every four hours on the way to drop the money off with the kidnappers. Four hours went by, he didn't phone. Eight hours went by, he didn't phone. You can see where this is going, can't you? Meanwhile, the kidnappers are going apoplectic. They think we're gonna ambush them, we're gonna rip them off, we're gonna napalm their jungle hideout, all this crazy stuff. And so at the end of the day I'm thinking, "Okay, okay. Well, so what? Now what?" I need to remove that emotion from it so I can make an objective, rational thought, uh, thinking and decision. In the end, we did manage to get tribal elder to go down, speak to the chief of police, who then released the courier and the money ...

    5. CWChris Williamson50:02

       I was gonna say, where was the courier?

    6. SWScott Walker50:04

       Lo- he was, he had been detained by the, um, by the local police for-

    7. CWChris Williamson50:07

       Oh, for having carried s- s- a ton of money in a, a briefcase or something.

    8. SWScott Walker50:12

       Yeah, a couple hundred thousand dollars from across the border from one country to the next, which he shouldn't have done. But anyway, we managed to get them released and we think, "Great, the courier is now gonna be on his way to drop the money off." But he wants no more to do with it, so he takes his cut and he legs it.

    9. CWChris Williamson50:27

       (laughs)

    10. SWScott Walker50:27

        Meanwhile, the kidnappers are not having, uh, uh, a decent day here. Which comes back to that trust and the cooperation, the collaboration I spoke about earlier. Because I'd established that trust with the kidnappers, I was managed to allay their concerns for one more day, and so we needed to find another courier the next day. So I go back to the, to my room, uh, in the embassy compound, and I'm thinking, "Right, what was going on there? Well, how did that happen? How did we not foresee that?" And this brings this sense of constant and never-ending improvement, or as the military guys will say, "The unrelenting pursuit of excellence." Okay, so what? It's happened. We can't do anything about it now. What we can do is, how can we learn from it and how can we make sure we don't make those mistakes again? And the next day, we found another courier and he got the money out, he had to get a boat out to sea to a waypoint where the handover was done. Um, so there's that, and then after each case, it's, it's sitting down and doing an after-action review, and you can do this in your business or any kind of family scenario. You just review it, "Okay, well what worked well? What could we do better next time?" And not to take it personally.

    11. CWChris Williamson51:42

        I love it.

11. 51:43 – 52:15

    Where to Find Scott

    1. CWChris Williamson51:43

       I love it. Very, very cool. Scott Walker, ladies and gentlemen. Where should people go if they want to keep up to date with all of this stuff that you're doing?

    2. SWScott Walker51:51

       Uh, the website's probably the best place, scottwalkerbooks.co.uk, and they can find out more information there. They can get ahold of the book and newsletter and all the other good stuff.

    3. CWChris Williamson52:03

       Scott, I appreciate you. Thank you, mate. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe.

Episode duration: 52:15