Investigating The Incel Community - Naama Kates | Modern Wisdom Podcast 363

1. 0:00 – 0:33

   Intro

   1. NKNaama Kates0:00

      ... overwhelmingly, a lot of them are just lonely. A lot of them have trouble with just platonic friendships too, and don't feel they have like a, a strong social group. And a lot of them just aren't happy. The vast majority of them have some kind of, like, either depression or anxiety. Something like 20% are on the autism spectrum, which is a really, really high percentage. And that's formal diagnoses too, not just that suspect that they are.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:28

      (wind blowing) Lama Kate, welcome to the show.

   3. NKNaama Kates0:31

      Thanks for having me.

2. 0:33 – 4:54

   Researching Incels

   1. NKNaama Kates0:33

   2. CWChris Williamson0:33

      How did you get into researching incels?

   3. NKNaama Kates0:37

      I've been asked this many times, and I don't have a neat story as to how. Um, basically, I have a background in media. I'm a filmmaker, written things and acted, and, you know, music, everything kind of in that world. Um, and so I was, uh, finishing up a film when I started really getting into podcasts, just as a medium. Um, and the ones that I liked the most were true crime kind of stuff, as you know, Crawlspace, my, uh, network, um, is very true crime oriented. And, um, I was just listening to a lot of them, and I guess, kind of having just worked on a, a film that is very costly and, you know, labor-intensive, time-intensive, planning-intensive process. Um, also a visual medium, which I've since realized I'm much less visually oriented than I am in terms of words and sound and things like that. Um, and yeah, I was just kind of really appreciating the, the medium, like storytelling through that form was interesting to me. And around the same time, I think incels kind of made their way onto my radar, and, uh, and then I, I had a happenstance encounter with one, with an, with an incel, um, I think in 2017 or so. And it was just a random social media thing, and I started talking to this person, and it became very interesting, and I asked if we could record our conversations, and he said fine. And I listened to them back and found them interesting, and it just seemed like a good topic for a podcast, you know? I, I looked around for information about it, and there was hardly any at the time, and that's kind of how it started.

   4. CWChris Williamson2:29

      Well, I asked all of Twitter for their suggestions, and the two names that came up as, like, incel experts were you and James Bloodworth.

   5. NKNaama Kates2:36

      That's actually true. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson2:38

      So you've managed to reach the pinnacle of what Twitter thinks an incel expert is.

   7. NKNaama Kates2:43

      Yes. I've also managed to reach the, uh, whatever you would refer to as the bottom of that.

   8. CWChris Williamson2:50

      Okay, bottom of the barrel and at the top, fine.

   9. NKNaama Kates2:52

      Yes. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson2:52

       So that's, that's cool. All right, so how do you define what an incel is?

   11. NKNaama Kates2:57

       Well, um, there is the basic definition, involuntary celibate. An incel, someone who is involuntarily celibate. Um, categorically, according to the incel community, it would just be someone that, you know, doesn't have sexual or romantic relationships, despite wanting them. Um, so that's kind of the broadest definition, and, uh, there's also, like, a timeline limit for, for some groups. They say, you know, "You have to be a virgin." Some would say, "Well, it has to be six months or more that you're in this situation that you can say you're, you're incel, otherwise it's a dry spell or something." Um, so, so there's that. But beyond that, um, is are we talking about an, an incel, which is just someone who is that, whether or not they know it, um, or someone who recognizes that they are an incel? Um, that's kind of the second or middle of the road definition. And then the third, I would say is someone whose identity is, who, who's really kind of made their identity about that and partakes in the online, you know, community and the forums and the websites, as we all might be coming to know more about them now.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:16

       Well, pretty much everyone during lockdown last year probably was an incel, unless you were living with your partner, right?

   13. NKNaama Kates4:21

       Exactly. Right, and, and everyone who, um, you know, ev- everyone at some point in their lives probably was one too. Obviously, there's some exceptions to that, but yeah, um, if you just go by that definition, that's not-

   14. CWChris Williamson4:33

       Okay, so there's dry spell, which is a six-month period. There's, like, purity incel, which is someone that hasn't had sex. There's an incel which is someone that's aware about the fact that they're sort of struggling with women, and then there's somebody who identifies with the community. So you've sort of got a bit of a hierarchy going on.

   15. NKNaama Kates4:50

       Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.

   16. CWChris Williamson4:52

       Okay, cool. How

3. 4:54 – 11:22

   Incels and the Men’s Rights Movement

   1. CWChris Williamson4:54

      do incels relate to the men's rights movement? Do they at all?

   2. NKNaama Kates4:59

      Um, yes. I mean, again, if we're going by the categorical description of, of an incel, um, and by the way, that's, I, and I don't mean just the categorical description. I mean the one where they're aware of it, but they're not, they don't associate with the community in any way. And I've actually had many people like that on my show, so it's not uncommon. You know, these are people who are incels and who are aware that they are and aware that a community exists, but they just don't relate to a lot of what they see in there, um-

   3. CWChris Williamson5:30

      It's kind of like a lifestyle, but not an identity.

   4. NKNaama Kates5:34

      Yeah, or maybe even if it were an identity, once they realized what was associated with it or what the identity was for most of the people in it, they didn't want anything to do with it. So, um, the original question was? Sorry.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:51

      Men's rights.

   6. NKNaama Kates5:52

      Men's rights. Okay, so yeah, the men's rights, MRA, men's rights activists, um, along with incels and along with MGTOW, men going their own way, um, and PUA, pickup artists, and some other sort of...... you know, uh, derivations are- make up what's called the Manosphere now. Um, and the Manosphere is, uh, described in various places to be kind of like a male supremacist umbrella of groups that, um, have certain things in common, obviously, with a lot of differences between them. Um, there's also a timeline to this. I don't know if you want me to get, like, too detailed about that because I think that-

   7. CWChris Williamson6:35

      Yeah, give us a broad overview. I wanna know, I wanna know how this all pieced together.

   8. NKNaama Kates6:39

      Okay. So, um, basically, I would say that around the time that, like, 4Chan, 4Chan which started in 2003 or 2005, I don't remember, you know, began, and a lot of different social media platforms began, they all kind of came of age around the time, which is the mid-aughts, late aughts, that there was this PUA, pickup artist movement. And it started with this man, Neil Strauss, who wrote a book called The Game that was, um, considered pretty controversial or, or misogynistic at one point. But it was basically just kind of game, like, how men can, um, gamify the system when it comes to human behavior and mating and what makes people attractive to each other, et cetera. Um, so this was, uh, a big thing. It was... The book was a huge bestseller, um, and it kind of created a, uh, group of dating experts, um, that you could call them like gurus at the time of pickup, this thing, pickup art- pickup artistry. Um, and there would be, you know, it became another exploitative venture, like there would be weekend ret- retreats that cost a lot of money and all of that stuff. Um, and while this was happening, um, and 4Chan was becoming a thing with its boards like, uh, r9k, which was for Hikikomori, a lot of the language that they were coming up with at the time. Um, and you can imagine there'd be some overlap between people that spend too much time on the computer and are young men maybe and aren't getting laid, so there it was. Um, and then pickup artist kind of led to, uh, like the next generation of, of young men who felt awkward or whatever having spent money and time and effort and resources on these pickup artist camps and this philosophy in these books and, and seeing that it didn't work for them. So, you know, they became reactionary against pickup artists, and, um, if you are really into this stuff like I am (laughs) you'll know that, uh, when people write about Elliot Rodger and they talk about the incel forums that he visited, uh, the one that they're referring to is what was called PUA Hate, puahate.com. So, PUA-

   9. CWChris Williamson9:08

      Who's Elliot Rodger for the people that don't know?

   10. NKNaama Kates9:11

       So, Elliot Rodger's like the first incel killer, as, as people would call him, and understand that he was a 22-year-old who, um, shot up his former... Y- you know, it, it was a college town that he was living in near Santa Barbara, Isla Vista, and, you know, he murdered seven people. So, he left a very kind of widely circulated manifesto, and he had YouTube videos. Um, he has a persona very much like a American Psycho kind of character, like a Oscar Wilde or, you know, very affected kind of persona. So, that, I think, inspired a lot of copycats, and that was the first attack that was associated with the incel community, though he himself never used that word. Um, so yeah, this is where PUA, PUA Hate kind of started, and around the same time, you had the beginnings of the Manosphere. So, all these groups kind of coming up together, um, in reaction to modern society, feminism, circumstances in their life.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:21

       Are there gay incels or female incels?

   12. NKNaama Kates10:25

       Um, so that's a, you know, a question I get a lot. Uh, most incels themselves would say that there aren't, uh, either. Um, female incels would call themselves femcels, and there is a femcel, there are. You know, it's like, um, femcel chats and servers and stuff. I haven't really seen a dedicated website. Um, it's a pretty different demographic. Uh, the nature of the conversations is very different. Um, and most incels don't think that women really can be incel. Um, they also don't think that gay men can be incel because they think that women's selectivity, how, how picky women are, is the reason that most of them are incel.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:12

       So, when you remove the sexual gatekeeper from the conversation, you just have two protagonists that can go at it as much as they want?

   14. NKNaama Kates11:19

       Exactly. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson11:21

       Okay,

4. 11:22 – 21:50

   Dynamics of Incel Communities

   1. CWChris Williamson11:22

      cool. Uh, what is it about these communities that makes them appealing?

   2. NKNaama Kates11:27

      Um, well, that was a question that I raised when I wrote about this, which I think is a very important question. What makes them appealing? What makes any, um, counterculture appealing? What makes any fringe group appealing? Um, I think there are many things that do, but for the most part, I think anytime someone, you know, really creates, like, a new identity and finds a new, um, purpose or, like, a sense of family and community in an external community, that says that there was something missing from their life to begin with. They need to seek, uh...... you know, externally to find this. So I think that that's what it is. I think that for a lot of people, it just comes down to feeling unimportant, feeling unseen, feeling ignored. Um, and then with this one, it's even more obvious. You know, in this community, they can speak openly about things that are very shameful in other, you know, pretty much everywhere else.

   3. CWChris Williamson12:40

      All right. So what sort of things do they focus on? Like, you've spent far too long, much, far longer than is healthy-

   4. NKNaama Kates12:47

      (sighs)

   5. CWChris Williamson12:47

      ... engrossed in these sorts of chats. What is the sort of content that's in there?

   6. NKNaama Kates12:52

      Um, so, like, in the forums or, like, when they talk to me, or maybe-

   7. CWChris Williamson12:59

      In the forums.

   8. NKNaama Kates13:01

      So in the forums, you will have a lot of, uh, Ls, people posting their Ls. That's kind of American slang for posting their losses. Um, a lot of commiserating, a lot of talking about something bad that happened, uh, today, you know, and how, like, this, this, and this happened, you know, proof that I'm really subhuman. There will be talk about, um, the studies from evolutionary psychology or biology, uh, that, um, you know, document that less attract- like, the average heights of CEOs or how people respond to more attractive people in terms of hiring, things like that. Uh, you know, Tinder data studies and all kinds of stuff like that, mostly.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:53

      Is that to legitimate the suffering in a way, to kind of give some statistics and some quantifiable backups to what they're experiencing qualitatively?

   10. NKNaama Kates14:04

       Yes, 100%. Mm-hmm. Um, to validate it and also to offer some kind of explanation.

   11. CWChris Williamson14:12

       Mm. But so far, it sounds like it's a place where people that are struggling in life can find other people that are also struggling and they get, like you say, commiseration, they get support, but I imagine that this must lead to, I know for a fact that it leads to resentment, right? It's not just commiseration of the in group, it's resentment of the out group, and the out group would be women.

   12. NKNaama Kates14:34

       The out group, not just women. The, I mean, women's kind of the obvious one, but it's also just, like, normies. I, I would say in the more mature incels that I speak to that do just get what you're describing out of this group, which is, you know, a sense of belonging. And oftentimes, it's just kind of jokes, humor. Like, it's gallows humor, it's dark, um, it's memes, but it's still humor. Um, I, I would say for most, and remember this is a community that skews very young, but so the ones that are a little bit older, I think their resentment is not just women, but just kind of society and the hypocrisy of society for not, um, acknowledging that people can be shallow and people can be locust and all of these things. Um, but yeah, it, I mean, I've had many examples on the show at this point that have either said, uh, explicitly that they feel like the community made things worse for them in terms of their depression. Um, and somewhere I just see it's just not helping. And then there are some that it does help because they find that community.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:50

       So many people that I've heard on your podcast that are blackpilled or ex-members of this community do really talk about it, like, almost like leaving a cult. You know, they, they talk about having seen the light of something that was wrong and then they've, they've kind of come out. But, um, yeah, it, it's, it's weird, right? Because on one hand you think, yeah, if, if people are struggling and they feel marginalized, then yes, give them a support system. That's great. But it's this slippery slope when it can encourage people to almost stay like that. I think you've said that misery and failure are ce- almost sort of celebrated in these forums, and that ascending and making more of yourself is sometimes sort of talked down to. Is that right?

   14. NKNaama Kates16:37

       Yeah. I mean, not necessarily talked, uh, or discouraged, but, um, because it has to be a community for incels, and there's the gatekeeping that goes along with that too, um, people can be banned for, uh, bragging. You know, that's one of the main requirements.

   15. CWChris Williamson16:57

       So if somebody was to sleep ... If one of the members was to finally sleep with a woman, would that be classed as bragging?

   16. NKNaama Kates17:04

       Yes. Or even way less than that. Like, the, you know, they'll complain to me that I can barely say anything on there anymore because even if I just say that, like, a, a female just talked to me today, then they'll be, they'll call me in chat and it's-

   17. CWChris Williamson17:18

       So is that ... How much of that do you think is the community protecting itself from hope? That if one member of this community is able to make a tiny little bit of headway, you know, one millimeter in the right direction and, and, and a girl says yes to them, that that then highlights the fact that there's a potential for other members to do that. And that obviously creates a delta between where they are and where they want to be, and it can cause discomfort. Is that, is that one of the mechanisms or not?

   18. NKNaama Kates17:44

       Yeah, sure. I mean, as it is for, you know, I think friend groups in general, when someone kind of succeeds or other ones don't. Um, and then more specifically in this community because, um, you know, to some degree, rightly, they've, uh, experienced bullying or teasing for being whatever it is they perceive themselves to be, you know, to varying degrees obviously. Um, and they imagine that-... this person's just LARPing to, to bully them or make fun of-

   19. CWChris Williamson18:20

       So-

   20. NKNaama Kates18:20

       ... them or whatever. So-

   21. CWChris Williamson18:20

       What's LARPing?

   22. NKNaama Kates18:22

       Um, live action role playing.

   23. CWChris Williamson18:25

       Okay, so that mean, like, pretending?

   24. NKNaama Kates18:26

       Pretending, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson18:27

       Yeah. Okay, okay. So what are the commonalities about th- amongst the people that are in these communities, other than the fact that they're struggling with women and not having sex? What-

   26. NKNaama Kates18:37

       (sighs)

   27. CWChris Williamson18:37

       ... other commonalities do you have?

   28. NKNaama Kates18:39

       Well, um, I would say that, overwhelmingly, a lot of them are just lonely in general. So, um, there are definitely exceptions to this, a substantial amount of them, but, um, for the most part, um, a lot of them have trouble with just platonic friendships too and don't feel they have like a, a strong social group. And just with other aspects of purpose and life, a lot of them just aren't happy. A lot of them have ... the vast majority of them have some kind of, um, like either depression or anxiety, pretty significant amount of it. Um, something like 20% are on the autism spectrum, which is a really, really high percentage. Um, and that's, you know, formal diagnoses too, not just that suspect that they are. W- um, so compared to like 1% or 2% of the population across the board, that's very high. Um, and, (smacks lips) yeah, bullying, teasing in, in childhood. Um, uh, a lot of them are NEET, though that's not the majority. That's like a third, and NEET is Not in Employment or Educational Training. So, they're under-

   29. CWChris Williamson20:03

       (coughs)

   30. NKNaama Kates20:04

       ... under employed, under stimulated, you know. Um, and then there's other, there are oth- um, many other commonalities but, I mean, maybe if you have a question more specifically about, uh, one or-
5. 21:50 – 27:27

   Breaking Out of Inceldom

   1. CWChris Williamson21:51

      It seems interesting thinking about it. Uh, uh, I agree that there is a, um ... there is an element of looks from male to female attraction that doesn't always get spoken about. But in my experience, status and resources can account for an als- awful lot of looks. Like, think about the, the old billionaire, right, that's got a really hot young wife.

   2. NKNaama Kates22:14

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:16

      Are there any of the guys that are trying to sort of manipulate their way out of Inceldom through status or acquiring resources?

   4. NKNaama Kates22:24

      Yes, yes, there are. Um, so they have their kind of, uh, hierarchy of what's important to women is looks, money, status, in that order. Um-

   5. CWChris Williamson22:36

      Oh, really?

   6. NKNaama Kates22:37

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson22:37

      Do you agree with that?

   8. NKNaama Kates22:39

      No. ? ... but, um, I think it really varies from person to person, and I think personality belongs on that list, and they don't. Um, and then I, I think that ... I think it's a combination of, of all those things and one informs the other two, like, where, uh, (baby coos) they talk about this concept of the halo effect, which is, uh, an idea for when somebody is physically attractive, um, (baby coos) they are seen as being more intelligent, more funny, more kind, you know, the list goes on, and I think that there's plenty of truth to that. Um, (baby coos) but I think the reverse works too, you know, uh, to where if someone is very funny, is very intelligent, is whatever, they are also seen to be more attractive, more of the other things. Um, and the, the blend for each person is very different, and it becomes really difficult to know, uh, at some point, you know, objectively. And, and they're, they're very interested in ranking, like I get asked to rank or rate their appearance one to ten all the time, and I wouldn't even know how to do that. I, I've never done that before.

   9. CWChris Williamson23:55

      Why do you think that's the case?

   10. NKNaama Kates23:57

       Oh, well, I have a few, um, ideas about it. I mean, obviously there's some rigid thinking going on in this community, some need for rankings, order, numbers, um, kind of a black-and-white thinking too sometimes (baby coos) that is maybe a little bit more typically male, uh-... to rank things like that. Um, maybe a little bit more typically kind of, uh, of a, of a conservative or less sort of adventurous, open-minded personality, which would track too. And then again, you know, with autism spectrum disorder, and I'm not trying to, you know, I have to be very careful whenever I even bring it up, even though I think it's so significant, um, but that's also, you know, a point of view, personality type that tends to be more rigid and more putting things in labels and ranks and... So, you know, I think all of those things are, are related, and I think they're all also important for people to consider when they think about how to deal with incels.

   11. CWChris Williamson25:11

       So some of them have identified the fact that looks are an enabler for status and resources, but they also sort of rank the hierarchy of these in reverse. So looks first as that-

   12. NKNaama Kates25:23

       Yes.

   13. CWChris Williamson25:23

       What about trying to make themselves look more attractive? I- isn't there a thing, looksmaxx or something like that?

   14. NKNaama Kates25:27

       Yes. So looks, looksmaxxing just means making yourself more attractive.

   15. CWChris Williamson25:32

       Physically only. Only physically.

   16. NKNaama Kates25:34

       Physically. Yes. Uh, there's other... I, I mean, so if... So statusmaxxing is, is a term too that people can do, (laughs) which I think is a... I always tell them, "Go for that. That's very important." (laughs) Um, more important than any of the others. Um, jestermaxing, being funny, that's their term for it. You can jestermax your way into ascension. Um, and then there's others too. There's all kinds of categories. But, um, the money one they refer to differently as betabucksing. So that's not just maxing, um, it's betabucks. And the reason they don't all just try to do this is because then you might be able to buy your way into having a relationship or even getting married or whatever, but, uh, the woman will always be thinking of Chad because you're beta, and she'll never really be attracted to you or really love you, um, or be loyal to you.

   17. CWChris Williamson26:41

       And that's why money is the third of the three. Or is status the third of the three?

   18. NKNaama Kates26:47

       No. Status is the third. LMS. So-

   19. CWChris Williamson26:52

       That's interesting.

   20. NKNaama Kates26:53

       Well, they think that, um, to women, looks is most important, then money, and then status. I disagree, again, but, um, that's not really ranking the outcomes of, you know... This isn't all airtight. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson27:11

       Yeah, I under- I, I understand that.

   22. NKNaama Kates27:14

       Um, it's not really ranking the, the outcomes of working on either, uh, any of the three things. It's just beta, beta gets a different category also 'cause it sounds good, I guess, betabucks.

   23. CWChris Williamson27:24

       Yeah. It, it rhymes better, right?

   24. NKNaama Kates27:26

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson27:26

       Uh, so, you've mentioned

6. 27:27 – 32:33

   Why Modern Woke Culture Doesn’t Care

   1. CWChris Williamson27:27

      before that the incels particularly feel sort of marginalized in a modern woke culture. What's that mean?

   2. NKNaama Kates27:32

      Mm-hmm. Well that, I think, I think there's truth to that because, um, because of, you know, many of our current, uh, movements, I guess, um, and attempts to sort of correct, um, portions of our history that have been less fair to some identity or another, um, men, and a lot of people think of incels as being white men, even though that's, that's not true, it's about half-and-half, um, (clears throat) uh, are... You know, they're, they're not very high up on the epistemology- victimology scale. It's kind of on the bottom. So I think that where we do have a tremendous amount of empathy, or at least formative, at least the appearance of, of empathy being granted to almost any, uh, any group you can name now, protected class, um, there is none from supposedly the more empathetic people toward this group.

   3. CWChris Williamson28:44

      Yeah. Empathy and victimhood is sort of en vogue at the moment, right?

   4. NKNaama Kates28:48

      It is.

   5. CWChris Williamson28:48

      Like signaling, "We're, we're so compassionate, we really care about this marginalized group." Why do you think it is that incels aren't getting that same love? Is it just that they're part of a, a, what would be a traditional oppressive class, i.e. patriarchy?

   6. NKNaama Kates29:02

      I, I think that's where it starts. Um, I think there's also quite a bit of moral panic right now in our culture over, um, issues like racism and, and misogyny, as there should be. But to then ascribe, you know, things that are not... Well, (clears throat) um, just because... So, so incels are this misogynistic group, uh, from the privileged class of men, um, and so therefore, what they do that is horrible is... I, I don't know. It doesn't entirely make sense to me, but I guess, um, there is a tendency now because everyone's very polarized, uh, for especially in sort of the mainstream to really, um, explain anything that's horrible and ugly and unwanted and reviled and, you know, dangerous into, like, um, something that we can say is just as big, that evil, like racism or misogyny or something. And so I guess it's difficult for people to imagine that if one belongs to this group, they can't also be, um, deserving of... They, one can't be... They don't neatly fit into oppressor or oppressed.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:32

      Yeah. Yeah. And it also, it's...... it's derived from individual preferences.

   8. NKNaama Kates30:38

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:38

      And that's very hard. How do you say, "I'm angry at you, evolutionary programming." Like, "I'm hang- angry at you, hypergamy."

   10. NKNaama Kates30:47

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:47

       Especially when everybody is at the mercy... It's like being angry at gravity-

   12. NKNaama Kates30:50

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:51

       ... or something.

   14. NKNaama Kates30:52

       Well, if people accept that those things are, they do actually exist and not everyone does, but yeah .

   15. CWChris Williamson30:58

       Yeah, well, hopefully... I don't know, I mean that, it, it blows, it blows my mind the, the blank slatism. Uh, I've got James Bloodworth coming on now. Saw that he had a conversation with, um, a, a feminist who's... A series of letters. And, uh, I was blown away by the fact that most feminists ascribe to, or she said that most feminists apparently ascribe to this sort of blank slate theory, which is that the only differences that you have between men and women are because of socialization.

   16. NKNaama Kates31:23

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:23

       And you're like, you, you've read nothing.

   18. NKNaama Kates31:26

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson31:26

       I, I, I don't understand how-

   20. NKNaama Kates31:28

       Also common sense would... I mean, really just a minimum of, of common sense I think would suggest otherwise.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:34

       Well, if that person is in a relationship, the... Or if those people are in relationships, you'd say, "Okay, is your husband shorter than you?"

   22. NKNaama Kates31:42

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:42

       Probably not.

   24. NKNaama Kates31:43

       Right.

   25. CWChris Williamson31:43

       "Does your husband earn less than you?"

   26. NKNaama Kates31:45

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson31:46

       "Is your husband less educated than you?"

   28. NKNaama Kates31:47

       Right.

   29. CWChris Williamson31:47

       "Does your husband have less status than you?"

   30. NKNaama Kates31:49

       Right.
7. 32:33 – 38:13

   Are Incels Pro-Monogamy?

   1. NKNaama Kates32:33

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson32:33

      Yeah. Um, so what about being pro-monogamy? Because I only learned kind of recently about the, um, the usefulness of monogamy as a redistributive strategy for sex, and I guess that the incels are probably quite pro that.

   3. NKNaama Kates32:47

      They are pro-monogamy, uh, generally because so many of them haven't even had a relationship that w-... Well, why wouldn't they be? And, and then they have these fears about, um, you know, women being unfaithful. So, it would make sense that they're pro that. I mean-

   4. CWChris Williamson33:10

      Well, on the flip side, sorry.

   5. NKNaama Kates33:11

      (clears throat)

   6. CWChris Williamson33:11

      I, I would have guessed that in a different version of the world, they could have said, "Well, if a, a society was more sexually liberal and women were more free and open, I might-"

   7. NKNaama Kates33:22

      Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson33:22

      "... be able to get laid more easily."

   9. NKNaama Kates33:23

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson33:23

       So it doesn't necessarily logically follow that monogamy wou-... That they would be pro-monogamy.

   11. NKNaama Kates33:28

       That's, that's true, um, and there are some that actually think that way. There, there are a few that, that do think that way. That because women are, you know, more sexually liberated, that, that actually works in their favor. But, um, where they don't is, you know, what we kind of alluded to, this idea of enforced monogamy. Just that in the past when women weren't so hypergamous and didn't have these endless options, um, there would be other reasons they'd have to stay with, with someone. Um, and then maybe beta bucks wouldn't be such a taboo thing, um, but now that women have all these options, then they are only going to want Chad. Um, I think there's just a, a crossover more generally between kind of traditionalist, um, thinking or more issues with contemporary society, um, for, for a number... And, and incels for a number of reasons. I mean, one is I think kind of obvious of just what w- we talked about with the, you know... Um, or maybe we didn't talk about it so much, but, but feminism, and, and women's, um, financial, uh, w- women's ability to have agency and to have a career, and-

   12. CWChris Williamson34:45

       What's their problem with that?

   13. NKNaama Kates34:46

       Um, I don't think they have a problem with i- it per se. I think it's kind of what you alluded to, which is that being that women now can do all those things and sort of elevate themselves on all these levels, but they still want a man that's equal in height-

   14. CWChris Williamson35:02

       Across and above, yeah.

   15. NKNaama Kates35:03

       Yeah, exactly. That it leaves a lot of them out, you know. It takes them out of the...

   16. CWChris Williamson35:08

       This is... I mean, I, I've spoken about this loads, but it is so fascinating what's happening when you've given women the ability to earn status, education, and resources off their own back. And the externality of it is so crazy, and no one could have predicted... Well, maybe with unbelievable foresight you might have been able to predict, but the fact that women quite rightly should be allowed to do what they want and become smarter and richer, and be more well-known, more famous.

   17. NKNaama Kates35:35

       (clears throat)

   18. CWChris Williamson35:35

       But that they're fundamentally going to shrink their own dating pool by doing this, which leads to a bunch of disassociated, disaffected men who only have other men to be friends with, and a bunch of singleton women who are struggling to find a man that they're fundamentally attracted to.

   19. NKNaama Kates35:53

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson35:54

       And then a bunch of... Like, the only person that's come out of this well are the nines and 10s-

   21. NKNaama Kates36:00

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson36:00

       ... in the... O- o- on the men's side.

   23. NKNaama Kates36:02

       Right.

   24. CWChris Williamson36:02

       Like, no one else has come out of this in a good situation.

   25. NKNaama Kates36:05

       Yeah. I, I mean, it's true. And you can't... It's one of those things that you can't really... Like, no one would want to... I wouldn't want to obviously (laughs) , um, not to say that anybody would, but even if one did believe that, you know, turning the clock back on this-

   26. CWChris Williamson36:23

       Oh, curtail women's ability to become educated, rich and well-known in an attempt to make them more happy in a relationship.

   27. NKNaama Kates36:30

       Right, right, exactly.

   28. CWChris Williamson36:31

       Sorry women, no more education for you.

   29. NKNaama Kates36:33

       Yeah. Get back into the, uh, the kitchen. Um, it... You can't put that-... back anyway, even if somebody were to want that. So it's just kind of something that we have to contend with. As a species, we've had many changes very quickly. Um, most recently, we're dealing with social media and, uh, and dating apps, and, you know, people having the ability to have what looks like infinite swipes and endless options and to, uh, specify their qu- you know, their criteria for what they need, whether it's height or income or whatever. Um, when, I think, when people meet in real life, it doesn't really work like that. Uh, attraction happens... I mean, proximity, just being close to someone geographically -

   30. CWChris Williamson37:26

       Think about anyone that's, uh, worked in an office environment. You end up with the weirdest crushes on people.
8. 38:13 – 42:05

   Do the Communities Evolve or Change?

   1. NKNaama Kates38:13

   2. CWChris Williamson38:13

      What have been some of the changes that have occurred since you've been researching the incel community? Have you noticed the m- the community sort of grow or shift or morph at all?

   3. NKNaama Kates38:24

      Yeah, I think there've been a lot of changes to it. Um, but, you know, it hasn't been around that long to begin with, uh, so it's kind of hard for me to say what is-

   4. CWChris Williamson38:34

      Still forming, yeah.

   5. NKNaama Kates38:36

      Yeah. And what's also just cyclical, natural ups and downs. I mean, there's just been a lot more attention on it since I started, um, by media, academia, security, all these bodies. Um, and then there's also been a lot of censorship. So when I started the research, there were a few issues here and there. Um, the main subreddit for incels had been banned in 2017, leading to this website, um, that's now, like, the most popular one. But since that time... But there were others. And since that time, they've all been banned. In the last two years, little less than two years, they've all been banned. So it's really leading to a different... I mean, it, I think it just changes the nature of a community when everybody kind of is funneled to one place and, um, and when there's so much scrutiny. That would change the, uh, the content in the forum, I think, to be a little bit more paranoid. Some people become a little bit more shocking and edgelordy, 'cause they realize reporters and things are -

   6. CWChris Williamson39:50

      What's edgelording?

   7. NKNaama Kates39:52

      An edgelord is someone who, uh, you know, is edgy online, who will make provocative comments.

   8. CWChris Williamson40:01

      Okay. But yeah, I mean, uh, uh, as soon as you drive a community or a movement underground, it's gonna become more subversive. I know that we've both spoken to Andrew Gold, and he was saying that one of the, or that the number one risk factor for non-offending pedophiles is sort of stigmatization by society.

   9. NKNaama Kates40:19

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson40:19

       That if they feel like there isn't a place for them in society, then, "Why am I playing by your rules? What's the point?"

   11. NKNaama Kates40:26

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson40:27

       And I suppose that you get the same here, that if you feel like you're being ostracized by society at large, "Well, all right, fuck it. Like, I'm gonna say the meanest stuff. I'm gonna come up with the darkest memes. I'm gonna be the edgiest edgelord that I can, because-

   13. NKNaama Kates40:40

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson40:40

       ... like there's no place for me there, so I might as well craft out a place for me here."

   15. NKNaama Kates40:44

       Yeah. And for people who are already kind of on the, on the border, to where they have a toe into a fringe community, um, that might be extremist or whatever, um, and usually will come with like a kind of a persecution narrative, that, "We're being persecuted, and they all want us dead," and just like most fringe communities have, um, the, for people that are actually leaning toward believing that, that's just all the more confirmation that society wants nothing to do with you, they want you dead.

   16. CWChris Williamson41:19

       So where are they speaking now? If the subreddits have been removed and everything else has been shopped away, have they gone to the dark web or Discord servers or what?

   17. NKNaama Kates41:28

       They speak a lot on Discord. Um, the, their main website, uh, incels.is currently. It has domain changes occasionally for a lot of these reasons, censorship and things like that, various governments. Um, so that's the biggest incel site. Um, and I talk with those, you know, the administrators of that site a lot on the, on the show. Um, and then there are, there are a few others, you know, um, that usually kind of start up and, and fall down or splinter pretty quickly.

9. 42:05 – 49:47

   The Jake Davison Shooting

   1. NKNaama Kates42:06

   2. CWChris Williamson42:06

      So the most recent sort of high profile incel news story that we've had was here in the UK.

   3. NKNaama Kates42:12

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson42:12

      Uh, the guy from Plymouth, Jake Davison, who there's sort of some debate around exactly how he was motivated to commit what he did, what were the contributing factors. And you wrote this really great article for UnHerd, which will be linked in the show notes below, if everyone wants to go and check that out. What do you think the press got wrong about the Jake Davison situation?

   5. NKNaama Kates42:34

      Um, I think they got it all wrong (laughs) . Um, I just think that...... some of it, probably kind of knowingly. Um, in terms of how connected he was to this community, I, I don't think that that was, um, you know, he did have a connection to it. I would consider him an incel, most incels probably would. He never, um, never called himself that. He actually made an effort, you know, to kind of distinguish himself from them, and he was also, um, active in some subreddits that were anti-incel or, you know, about wanting to debate incels or prove them wrong. Um, he was just seemed back and forth with regards to that. Um, so, you know, that's, that's very basic point number one, uh, like, because then if you're going to say, "Well, he was an, an incel even though he didn't call himself one, he didn't identify that way, um, but this is what led him to kill." You, you just can't do that, um, with that kind of definition. But, um, you know, I think that they're, they're missing some things. I think that, uh, for me reading it, it seems like there was not evidence that this was even planned necessarily. There was no manifesto. There was no leakage. There was no, um, looking for information about like location or individuals. Um, I can't even tell from what I read, and I read all his Reddit and everything, um, that he was even necessarily like suicidal in an acute way that he hadn't been on and off for a long time. Uh, I think he was, he had mental health issues. He was a gun owner. He had an assault. Um, he seemed to be using, uh, performance-enhancing drugs, steroids, um, from his, his post history. Um, so, you know, I think that there's just a lot, uh, missing from that story, uh, and then I also think that the, the conversation very much became, um, are we going to call this terrorism and, and why don't we? And, um, I just don't know what that would even do, what it would really help, because-

   6. CWChris Williamson45:04

      Yeah. So this was, this was quite a, a strong talking point that I guess aligns with the oppressor repressed victimhood narrative-

   7. NKNaama Kates45:12

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:12

      ... everything needs to be systemic, it can't be an individual and their idiosyncratic peculiarities about their personal life. It has to be this sort of tip of the iceberg of this emergent substructure from a group-

   9. NKNaama Kates45:25

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:26

       ... that, from a group that everybody knows is wrong, an out group that's close enough to our in group for us to be able to hate them, and quite quickly there were these talks around, uh, this is a man that hated women. He was on websites that are misogynistic and, uh, very, very dangerous, and this should be classed in exactly the same way as somebody that wanted to go out and shoot white people or shoot-

   11. NKNaama Kates45:50

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson45:51

       ... or what, uh, disabled people or whatever, that it should be classed in that way. Let's say that Jake Davison had been a full red-bloodied incel edge lord-

   13. NKNaama Kates46:01

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson46:02

       ... from the depths of one of those forums. Do you think that that would've justified classing it as a terrorist attack?

   15. NKNaama Kates46:10

       I don't. I don't think that's, I don't think it meets that definition. I mean, you could call that possibly a hate crime if the targets are women or something like that. I would say that that could apply but terrorism has to have a political aim, and I don't think that any of the incel attacks have had a political aim. I just think that that's the wrong word, the wrong set of expertise and, and resources to devote to this issue because, you know, people that know about terrorism and counter-terrorism, it's, it's different. It has a meaning. It has a very specific meaning, you know? Um, and this just does not, it's not commensurate to.

   16. CWChris Williamson46:53

       Well, you could argue perhaps that some of the men in these groups are trying to send a message to women-

   17. NKNaama Kates46:58

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson46:58

       ... that if you reject us, that we may-

   19. NKNaama Kates47:02

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson47:02

       ... we can strike back. This is a way that we can take power. Don't you forget that men are stronger and with guns we can be stronger several hundred times over.

   21. NKNaama Kates47:11

       I guess you could, um, but I just don't think that... I think it's a stretch, uh, you know, to call it terrorism in the first place. Um, I don't think it would be the right, you know, I think that this is a problem, and, and problems with having, uh, let's say it's, it's not terrorism. Let's say it's not even violent extremism, but just extremism. Just, you know, a fringe misogynistic group. I think that, um, there are things about that in and of itself that I would consider dangerous and very unhealthy. Um, and I think that it should be handled if that's really like the motivating factor or even if not, it, it should be addressed, um, with, there should be some approach, some actual, you know, scientifically sound and thought through approach to dealing with this problem and with the problem of people being sort of pulled into, um, very dark ideologies. There's, there should be, and this is a group of people that, um, also would just benefit even if they are like the, the lone wolf or just someone on a downward spiral, um, that maybe would've benefited a lot from some kind of intervention. But I just don't, I don't think it's terrorism.

   22. CWChris Williamson48:34

       I would agree that deploying the counter-terrorism unit, like Jack Bauer isn't going to be able to make much of this Jake Davison situation. You're right that if you have a very particular set of skills and those are-... uh, counterintelligence. They are collecting assets and working out, you know, I mean when these groups are, are having Reddit threads shut down, then that's like a big blow to the community. It, uh, th- they're not operating at the same sort of level. Uh, and, and I think that fundamentally what this comes out of, which is different to most terrorist organizations, is not... Uh, uh, the impetus for why people join is not because of a shared vision around the world. It's because of a personal experience of the world-

   23. NKNaama Kates49:22

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson49:22

       ... which has resulted in a commonality that they've been able to bond over.

   25. NKNaama Kates49:26

       Yes. Yeah. And that might be true for why a lot of individuals join these other groups too, that they, what they really share is a personal experience that they're then sublimating onto this, you know, wider problem, but it's, this is just different.

10. 49:47 – 55:15

    Incels & White Supremacy

    1. NKNaama Kates49:47

    2. CWChris Williamson49:48

       What about incels and white supremacy? 'Cause I saw that get thrown around as well.

    3. NKNaama Kates49:53

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson49:53

       Far right hate groups and white supremacy, is that just the press churning out the usual talking points that they sometimes like if you... If patriarchy, then sometimes white supremacy and also far right hate groups. Or is there actually something to this?

    5. NKNaama Kates50:10

       Uh, there, there is something to it insofar as the, the language is, hmm, you know, borrowed and it goes back and forth between these communities because a lot of them... Uh, again, also they both grew out of 4chan, the, the alt-right as we currently know it, the young ones, um, uh, the memes and everything like that, there's some similarities in that culture. There are similarities in the fact that they're both, uh, anti-feminist to a degree, traditionalist. A lot of that I think has crossover with those personality types I kind of mentioned before, which is why some of this material would be more seductive for a certain personality type. So, uh, I would say there's a lot of crossover. Also, any, any, um, you know, army in the past, any like, uh, terrorist group or just hate group or anything like that now, the people who join are probably going to be like disaffected young men that don't have a girlfriend and don't have that much to lose. So there's just that. Um-

    6. CWChris Williamson51:18

       Have you seen much talk about race in the groups that you're a part of?

    7. NKNaama Kates51:25

       Yes, there's loads of talk about race. Um, they use very, uh, you know, politically incorrect or, you know, offensive language to talk about it, but it's not racism in... I know this, we get into a lot of trouble when we try to talk or define anything to do with this concept right now. And I understand that it can still be considered racist to say things that are offensive even if the intention isn't to offend or isn't hate. Um, but I would just make that distinction that, uh, mostly it's people of other races sort of talking about themselves. Um, they talk a lot about women being racist and how women are, um, you know, more racist and more picky than men in terms of their dating app matches and things like that.

    8. CWChris Williamson52:18

       Yeah, so I think contextualizing the other sort of language that's being used in these groups probably changes the use of the N-word to-

    9. NKNaama Kates52:27

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson52:28

        ... to, to something else because when you are being as edgy as you can-

    11. NKNaama Kates52:32

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CWChris Williamson52:33

        ... uh, us- u- using the N-word is almost just like a... I mean, it's crazy to think. I went on a, I went on one of these new video hosting platforms, you know, one of these decentralized-

    13. NKNaama Kates52:44

        Wow.

    14. CWChris Williamson52:44

        ... things and, uh, with unmoderated comments, and I was blow- I was like, "Wow, I can't believe that people post stuff like this on the internet." I couldn't believe-

    15. NKNaama Kates52:53

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson52:53

        ... that it even still existed. So yeah, when you contextualize stuff like that, it does make sense. You mentioned earlier on that you said it was about 50/50 when you were-

    17. NKNaama Kates53:02

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson53:02

        ... talking about white, uh-

    19. NKNaama Kates53:04

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson53:04

        ... participants of these groups to other ethnic backgrounds. Is that right?

    21. NKNaama Kates53:08

        Yes, uh, at least in like incels.co or .is now, which is-

    22. CWChris Williamson53:13

        50% of the people on incels.co-

    23. NKNaama Kates53:16

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson53:16

        ... are from an ethnic minority?

    25. NKNaama Kates53:17

        Mm-hmm. And that's, um, and that's given the fact that most of the, uh, members are from Europe and the United States. So that's even... I would say that's-

    26. CWChris Williamson53:29

        It's not like you've got an overrepresented Indian population in here or like loads of people from Ghana or something like that that are bringing the numbers up?

    27. NKNaama Kates53:36

        Well, right, I mean, but you'd think that given, I don't know, I think it... In the United States still something like 70 or so percent is, is white, and Europe's probably similar. So, you know, the majority of the members are from those countries, and that's definitely not, um... I don't think that's overrepresenting.

    28. CWChris Williamson53:57

        Yeah, so proportionally you have an overrepresentation of minorities in this group.

    29. NKNaama Kates54:02

        Maybe even a little bit, yeah. Mm-hmm.

    30. CWChris Williamson54:05

        That's interesting.
11. 55:15 – 1:05:35

    The Struggle to Support Incels

    1. CWChris Williamson55:15

       as well. There's an X factor that I don't think we've touched on yet, and it's that ... well, it's not an X factor. It's like an ick factor.

    2. NKNaama Kates55:20

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson55:20

       There's, there's sort of ... there's something about the group-

    4. NKNaama Kates55:24

       Yes.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:25

       ... that causes society at large to feel. Have you sort of considered why this is?

    6. NKNaama Kates55:32

       Yeah. I mean, I've thought about that a lot because, uh, it's so ... it was so striking when I first started the podcast, the reactions people would have, and really there just ... people just did not want to hear anything about it. They just didn't wanna touch it and, and I noticed that from, from men at first, at least, a little bit more than women even. Um, and, you know, I've, I've asked about that. One incel who's been on my show, uh, very early on had a good theory which was that, um, part of the reason people are so, uh, they have such a visceral reaction to it, 'cause I asked, uh, him that too, was that, um, well, because we're the people that they always teased, you know, when they were kids in school or whatever and kind of suggesting that, uh, having to, to look at this would mean having to acknowledge that they have been shallow and cruel. And I think that there might be an element of that. And then I think that there's also just like this sense that it's like contagious and people just don't want to be associated with that thing, with this undesirable, you know, annoying, virgin, loser, creepy guy. And so there's just a real aversion to it.

    7. CWChris Williamson56:56

       Well, on top of that as well, I think that there's a sense ... uh, uh, uh, there's no prestige associated with supporting this group.

    8. NKNaama Kates57:05

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:05

       So what you might see, um, from somebody ap- uh, supporting an obviously, um, a- an obvious minority, someone that's disabled, let's say. Like, "Look at me. Look at how valiant I am-"

    10. NKNaama Kates57:17

        Yes.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:17

        "... I am supporting this marginalized group."

    12. NKNaama Kates57:19

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson57:20

        "And this is a comment on my moral grandstanding as a human." Whereas, like, who's gonna stand up and give the guy that supports guys that can't get laid a pat on the back?

    14. NKNaama Kates57:29

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson57:29

        Like it just seems like ... I, I, I think as well, and I'm sure that this appears in the groups, but there's also a sense of, "There's something wrong with you if you can't-"

    16. NKNaama Kates57:39

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson57:39

        "... get a woman, that this is something fundamental that men are supposed to do."

    18. NKNaama Kates57:43

        Exactly, yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson57:44

        Um, that there is a ... almost a sense that they deserve it in some way-

    20. NKNaama Kates57:50

        Yes.

    21. CWChris Williamson57:50

        ... I'm sure.

    22. NKNaama Kates57:51

        Oh yeah, and there are people who will say that explicitly like, "Oh, you must deserve it." So, I mean, in a way that ... in a way that, that, that does kind of, uh, at least confirm some of the incels' feelings about this which is that, um, in our society to ... it's still kind of like acceptable to make fun of someone for that, you know. Uh, it still suggests that there is something very wrong with the person who can't and, and so much so that, that people are even afraid to say anything, you know, um, in defense of them.

    23. CWChris Williamson58:33

        I was talking about this at a cricket match, the other ... like the most British way to have a conversation about, about sort of, uh, social norms. And we were talking about the fact that if you were to, uh, sing a racist chant, uh, that would be newsworthy, right? There would be an investigation. It would be a hate crime. Um, uh, uh, and the, the summary of that is that we don't want people to, um, feel sad because of, uh, an immutable characteristic that's part of them.

    24. NKNaama Kates59:00

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson59:01

        But that, uh, that level of protection only extends so far. So if you started making jokes about somebody or if you started to chant about somebody being ginger, that wouldn't be classed as being protected. Or for instance, uh, the, the example that we heard was we were at a game and there was a player there who apparently recently had either split up with his wife or his wife had been caught cheating on him or something like that, and this chant came up about like, "Where's your wife at?" to, to this player. Now, uh, let's say that that player was a, a minority. I'm pretty sure that the one that would have hurt most would have been the chant about his wife-

    26. NKNaama Kates59:37

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson59:37

        ... which is very pinpoint and it, it's a, it's a pain trigger that's-

    28. NKNaama Kates59:41

        Yeah, that's cruel.

    29. CWChris Williamson59:42

        ... ex- exclusively for him. Yeah, it's absolutely cruel.

    30. NKNaama Kates59:44

        Yeah.
12. 1:05:35 – 1:09:25

    Pacifying Effect of a Mate

    1. CWChris Williamson1:05:35

       Um, there's a quote from The Moral Animal by Robert Wright.

    2. NKNaama Kates1:05:39

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:05:39

       I'm not sure if you're familiar with this book.

    4. NKNaama Kates1:05:41

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:05:41

       I'm gonna guess it would probably be quite popular in, in service.

    6. NKNaama Kates1:05:43

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:05:43

       It was one of the first big evolutionary psychology books. There's this quote that just hit me. I knew that I had it somewhere and I saw this Jake Davison thing and thought, when, when searching in my Readwise highlights.

    8. NKNaama Kates1:05:55

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson1:05:55

       Here's the quote, "Male violence can be dampened by circumstance, and one circumstance is a mate. We would expect womanless men to compete with special ferocity, and they do. An unmarried man between 24 and 35 years of age is about three times as likely to murder another male as a married man the same age. Some of this difference, no doubt, reflects the kind of men who do and don't get married to begin with. But Martin Daly and Margo Wilson have argued cogently that a good part of the difference may lie in the pacifying effect of marriage." And that was written in 1993 or 1995?

    10. NKNaama Kates1:06:32

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:06:33

        So, we're talking on, like, nearly 30 years that this has been quite common understanding.

    12. NKNaama Kates1:06:39

        Well, I think it was a common understanding and I think now if that were written, it would be met with some objections. I would, I would think. Maybe the author would be canceled.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:06:54

        Robert wrote that book at precisely the right time, but he said that he came from a, a very, uh, religious background.

    14. NKNaama Kates1:07:00

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:07:01

        And the book is written, it's semi-biographical about Charles Darwin.

    16. NKNaama Kates1:07:05

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:07:05

        And he was like, uh, really, really about... I'm pretty certain that Robert's dad is like, was really active in the church, or maybe was a, some sort of-

    18. NKNaama Kates1:07:12

        Okay.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:07:12

        ... pastor or, or priest or something, and he got in, he got in so much trouble. Uh, and it's mad 'cause he's still go- He came on the podcast like s- five months ago, and he's still going, 30 years hence, been just delivering these really incisive talks.

    20. NKNaama Kates1:07:28

        Uh-huh.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:07:28

        And this book is beyond interesting. It's so good. Uh, it's really long as well, um, and yet it's so current. Uh, I, I really do love it. But yeah, that male violence thing, like, of course. Of course it is.

    22. NKNaama Kates1:07:43

        Yeah. Mm-hmm. Of course.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:07:43

        Like, why, why wouldn't you think that there would be a pacifying effect of having a mate?

    24. NKNaama Kates1:07:47

        Yeah, exactly. It's really not that, not that hard to get one's mind around it.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:07:53

        Yeah, to have an u- to have an underclass. D- Does anyone in the incel groups, do they all, any of them talk about the situation in China where you have these entire tower blocks of disaffected men who are unable to get dates?

    26. NKNaama Kates1:08:04

        Oh, I haven't heard about it in China. In Japan, in Japan, they're, there's the hikikomori.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:08:10

        S- that might be what I'm talking about and I've just been-

    28. NKNaama Kates1:08:12

        Okay, yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:08:13

        ... very pejorative about an entire nation of people.

    30. NKNaama Kates1:08:15

        (laughs)
13. 1:09:25 – 1:12:53

    What’s Next for Incels?

    1. NKNaama Kates1:09:26

    2. CWChris Williamson1:09:26

       What do you think is next for the incel community? It would appear that they're being squeezed increasingly from a technological standpoint. Um-

    3. NKNaama Kates1:09:37

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:09:37

       It also appears that there are, um, increasingly more counter cultures, anti-black pill, um, cultures that are coming through. I don't know what the sort of relative memberships are like.

    5. NKNaama Kates1:09:51

       They're still pretty small. Um, I think that... You know, I really thought that this problem would more or less go away, not that incels would, but just that this association with, like, attacks and therefore the increased censorship and stuff would, because I, I don't know why, I just did. Um, but I, I feel like the more scrutiny there is on this community, I just think that causes more of a problem. Um-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:10:22

       Why?

    7. NKNaama Kates1:10:23

       Because, well, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, let's just say if you're law enforcement, um, when every big tech platform censors them, they m- migrate and become harder to monitor. So, that's just, you know, one very obvious problem, I think. Two is that then there becomes no, um, back and forth with different perspectives. So, more of an echo chamber, more of an extreme echo chamber. Um, and, uh, yeah, it, it sort of confirms that idea of being persecuted and, and being, having no place in society, and then also for those very few that I believe are, you know, maybe violent to begin with, have a, a fascination with mass shooters to begin with, are just deranged, um, then they know that adding this kind of cause to whatever they do will just up the notoriety, and there are some sick individuals that want that. So, I think it's a problem in, in many ways, and I think that hopefully there begins to be a little bit of a change in that conversation, the way that they are dealt with, because this will always be a part of our society, and, um, it will always be a, you know, a problem and a source of, of grief or conflict for someone to feel that they have no place in it and no family and are not desired. And so those are the deeper issues, and we need to look at those.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:12:06

       Naama Kates, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to check out what you do and listen to your podcast, where should they go?

    9. NKNaama Kates1:12:11

       Um, it's called Incel, and it's the only podcast called Incel. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson1:12:16

        (laughs)

    11. NKNaama Kates1:12:16

        So, it's available pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. Um, my Twitter for the show is @incelproject, and my personal Twitter, @naama kates. That's, that's it for, for social media me.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:12:31

        Cheers. Thanks a bit, eh?

    13. NKNaama Kates1:12:32

        Thank you.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:12:34

        Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:12:53