Is Genghis Khan Harder Than Jocko Willink? - Dan Jones | Modern Wisdom Podcast 380

Dan Jones is a historian, TV presenter and an author. Dan took a break from walking about great British castles to write a book about the 1000 years of the Middle Ages. Knights and Templars and Monks and Mongols and Barbarians. Expect to learn why Genghis Khan was harder than Jocko Willink, Dan's best ever finish in Peloton, why I won't be allowed to go as a wizard to his imaginary medieval fancy dress party, just how bad a pandemic in the Middle Ages was, why Rome got rekt by climate change and much more... Sponsors: Get over 37% discount on all products site-wide from MyProtein at http://bit.ly/modernwisdom (use code: MODERNWISDOM) Get 20% discount & free shipping on your Lawnmower 4.0 at https://www.manscaped.com/ (use code MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Buy Powers & Thrones - https://amzn.to/3m6kXtc Follow Dan on Twitter - https://twitter.com/dgjones Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #history #middleages #jocko - 00:00 Intro 04:38 Dan’s Powers & Thrones Book 11:25 Why Rome Was Destroyed 19:26 Hard People Throughout Time 32:57 Medieval Archetypes 40:15 Pandemics in the Middle-Ages 47:45 Innovation in Medieval Times 1:04:25 Making History More Accessible - To support me on Patreon (thank you): http://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom Listen to all episodes on audio: Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Dan JonesguestChris Williamsonhost

Oct 4, 20211h 11mWatch on YouTube ↗

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Dan Jones Explains Medieval Power, Plague, and Why Genghis Won

Historian Dan Jones joins Chris Williamson to discuss his new book *Powers and Thrones*, a sweeping history of the Middle Ages from the first to the second sack of Rome. They explore why Rome fell, why no one quite replicated its empire, and how figures like Genghis Khan and early Islamic caliphs wielded power. Jones unpacks medieval archetypes like monks and knights to show different forms of power—military, religious, institutional—and draws parallels to modern corporations and media. Along the way they detour into Peloton cults, hard men like Jocko and Goggins, pandemics, medieval technology, and Jones’s fiction and TV work.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

The Middle Ages balance the alien and the familiar, making them uniquely compelling.

Jones argues the era sits between the near-contemporary feel of the 20th century and the almost unrecognizable Bronze Age, offering both relatable human constants and utterly strange beliefs and practices.

Rome’s fall was driven by climate shifts, migration pressures, and imperial overreach.

He links a downturn after the 'Roman Climate Optimum' with drought-induced Hun migrations, Gothic pressure on borders, and the structural instability of an oversized empire, culminating symbolically in the sack of Rome in 410.

Medieval power wasn’t just kings and armies; institutions like monasteries rivaled states.

Cluniac monasticism, for example, amassed wealth, influence, and cross-border networks, resembling today’s tech giants in their stateless yet system-shaping power.

Personal toughness—being 'hard'—is an under-discussed but real historical factor.

Jones half-jokingly suggests that leaders like Genghis Khan and Attila the Hun likely radiated an intimidating physical and psychological hardness that mattered alongside climate, technology, and institutions.

Medieval pandemics were world-shaping, but evidence quality varies dramatically.

The Black Death can be quantified reasonably (killing roughly 50–60% of Western Europe), whereas estimates for the Justinianic plague range wildly because chroniclers are biased and hard data is sparse.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

The Middle Ages sits between the totally alien and the totally familiar.

— Dan Jones

The answer to why Genghis Khan built that empire isn’t just because he was hard… but the guy must have just been double hard.

— Dan Jones

Cluniac monasticism is like Facebook, Apple, Google, Amazon – a stateless institution bending the world that political leaders have to consider.

— Dan Jones

Treadmills are dangerous. People with kids, don’t let your fucking kids near your treadmill.

— Dan Jones

Dick Whittington was like a super-don oligarch with a conscience.

— Dan Jones

The appeal and scope of the Middle Ages as a historical periodFall of the Western Roman Empire and comparison with later empiresForms and sources of power in medieval society (political, military, religious, institutional)Iconic medieval figures and archetypes: Genghis Khan, monks, knights, early Islamic leaders, Dick WhittingtonPandemics in the Middle Ages: Justinianic plague and the Black DeathMedieval technology and its impact on warfare, agriculture, and explorationModern history media ecosystem, cultish fitness culture, and Jones’s upcoming projects

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