Is Genghis Khan Harder Than Jocko Willink? - Dan Jones | Modern Wisdom Podcast 380

1. 0:00 – 4:38

   Intro

   1. DJDan Jones0:00

      Someone said, "Okay, well, why did Genghis Khan put together the greatest contiguous land empire seen in the Middle Ages?" And like, the answer isn't just because he was hard.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:08

      (laughs)

   3. DJDan Jones0:09

      But that, I went through like a whole, like, "Well, the structure of Mongol tribal society in the late 12th century was such and such, and there were some climate factors probably at play. And, you know, the relative organization of Genghis Khan's meritocratic, uh, reorganized Mongol army be- versus the decadent imperial societies of the..." Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I didn't mention the guy must have just been like (laughs) double hard.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:40

      Dan Jones, welcome to the show.

   5. DJDan Jones0:42

      Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:44

      Do you ever think about how much time people that are really, really stoned have spent watching you walk around great British castles?

   7. DJDan Jones0:53

      I haven't like broken it down into, um... I, like, segmented it according to intoxicants. I mean, I'm aware, dimly, that there's, like, a weird number of people, not just in the UK where I live, but worldwide, who've watched Secrets of Great British Castles. Um, I hadn't given much thought to, like, to, to as a stoner thing. Are you going to tell me otherwise?

   8. CWChris Williamson1:20

      I think you'd be surprised. I have a burgeoning group of students that work for me, many of whom I know their go-to program, if they're blazed out of their mind, is to get Secrets of Great British Castles on.

   9. DJDan Jones1:34

      Wow, that's, that's pretty weird. That does weird me out, Si.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:38

       (laughs)

   11. DJDan Jones1:38

       I mean, it doesn't, I'm not, not in a bad way. But, um, that would, that would definitely ruin my buzz, I think.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:45

       (laughs)

   13. DJDan Jones1:46

       It's been a long time. It's been a long time. Uh, so I, I don't... I'm sort of out of touch with my, um, with my blazed mind. But I... Well, of course it would, naturally it would freak me out.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:00

       Yeah. Well, I think you'd be surprised, man.

   15. DJDan Jones2:01

       I, I can't, I can't give you, I can't give you a, um, like an objective view on this.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:06

       Soft, sultry tones. No fast movements.

   17. DJDan Jones2:11

       No. There was a lot of... There was good camera work.

   18. CWChris Williamson2:13

       Yep. Good color paletting. Nice, nice presets. Nice LUTs on it. I reckon, yeah, I reckon lean into it for the next one. Find the most psychedelic castle that you can.

   19. DJDan Jones2:24

       I love that your optimism we'll ever get another series of that show. It's been a long time now.

   20. CWChris Williamson2:30

       Wh-

   21. DJDan Jones2:30

       You know, I made that show back in 20... When we did the first series. I think that was like 2013, '14, '15, that kind of time we did that and, and that's now getting to be a while ago. Like, I think I might have been in my... Now I can't have been in my 20s when I started it, but I was only just out of them.

   22. CWChris Williamson2:50

       Yeah.

   23. DJDan Jones2:50

       And now I'm 40.

   24. CWChris Williamson2:52

       Shit.

   25. DJDan Jones2:54

       Yeah. I, and I, and I sort of do, I think, if my... If, if and when, because let's be honest, it's always a when in TV, my, my career just like hits the wall of the tunnel and crumples, uh, and all that's left is my back catalog. Um, it'll be cau... There, there'll be a point at which people stop recognizing me in the street and going, "Oh my God, oh my God, you're the castle guy!" And start being like, "That old dude there-"

   26. CWChris Williamson3:24

       Looks like-

   27. DJDan Jones3:24

       ... "with like long gray hair at the side, but none at the top, shambling around smelling of his own urine, that looks like an old version of the castle dude from the comedy."

   28. CWChris Williamson3:34

       (laughs)

   29. DJDan Jones3:35

       That's how I see myself.

   30. CWChris Williamson3:35

       "He really looked after himself. He was so youthful and sprightly and look at him now."
2. 4:38 – 11:25

   Dan’s Powers & Thrones Book

   1. CWChris Williamson4:38

      Middle Ages. What's so good about the Middle Ages? Why is it so special?

   2. DJDan Jones4:43

      Well, it's special to me. Uh, I've, you know, I spent my whole career to date more or less in the Middle Ages. I mean, I, I, when I was a student, I was studying medieval legal history, and then I've written 10 books and eight of them have been about the Middle Ages, including this one, Powers and Thrones. So, um, I, you know, so there's, this is a personal reason. I've just spent a lot of time there. I like it. I think, I think it's a, it's a nice, like if you're sort of choosing from the menu of historical periods to delve into, it's got a nice sort of combination of the vaguely familiar and totally weird, if that makes any sense. So there's, I think there's, um, there's times in history where you can, or periods in history where it, it just feels a little like journalism. You know, if we talk about the wars of the s- of the 20th century, you know, some of us, when my grandparents were all, to some degree or other involved in, uh, the Second World War. Uh, so like, that doesn't feel, that feels nor- that feels like, oh yeah, that's just us with black caps on or whatever, tin helmets or whatever. Uh, you go, but you go back like way back to, let's see, the Bronze Age. If you ever read th- that Mary Renault book...... The King is Dead. Have you read that?

   3. CWChris Williamson6:05

      No.

   4. DJDan Jones6:06

      Uh, this is g- it's a great ... Merianau is a great, um, historical fiction author, a fantastic novelist, and she wrote a book called The King is Dead, which is about, uh, Theseus and the Minotaur. And it's, for me, the most auth- sort of, not authentic because we don't know, but most believable rendition of what Bronze Age Athens and Crete were like and what the Minotaur could or could not have been. Um, and it's, it sets up that world as almost completely alien. It's like you've just gone to a different planet. There's almost nothing that connects us with those primates that were also homo sapiens. Now, the middle ages sits between those two things, the totally alien and the totally familiar. And at, at one turn you can be, um, be touched deeply and immediately by what seems to be a sort of human constant between us and them. And, and then you turn a corner and it's like, wow, (laughs) that's sort of crazy. You guys thought, "What?" So, um, that's why I like it. That's wh- and, uh, and it's also a repository of amazing stories. I've spent a lot of time writing British history and Plantagenet dynastic history, and of course the, you know, from Henry II, Alan of Aquitaine, through to, uh, you know, the, the wars, Edward I's wars for Britain or the Hundred Years War or Wars of the Roses, whatever, whatever. That's all, those are all great stories that are part of a national story, our national history, the canon of our national history, um, quite old-fashioned, but still exciting. Um, but, you know, you throw the, the lens open to a book like Powers and Thrones, which, you know, I've, I've tried to go as broad as possible, and you've just got like the greatest hits, some of the greatest hits of history reside in this particular period. It's like if you were going to do a, a history of popular music, you, you'd be spending, um, like, a lot, a lot of time between the '50s and the '70s, right? (laughs) And the Middle Age is a bit like that, like a lot of the good tunes are in the Middle Ages.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:08

      And it's-

   6. DJDan Jones8:08

      There's a lot of analogies there.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:10

      It's book-ended between two Roman sackings as well. That was quite cool to find out that the Middle Ages is parentheses by Rome getting fucked twice.

   8. DJDan Jones8:22

      Well, the commission for th- th- there was a very concise commission for this book. 2019, I think, I think it was 2019, I went to Cliveden to a literary festival. And my publisher, Anthony Cheetham, to whom this book is dedicated, was there. And Anthony is, uh, is a great man, and a great publisher, and a dear friend of mine. And, but he gets the point, and, uh, he said, "History of the Middle Ages." I mean, th- that was how the conversation started. "Hi, Anthony, how are you?" "I'm good." "History of the Middle Ages, sack of Rome to sack of Rome. Want to do it?" I said, "Yeah, yeah, for sure." "Okay, good." And then they drew up the contract. Like, that, that's how our commissioning process has worked in, in the past. Uh, so the only, like, information I had to go on to begin with was, "Well, here, here are some bookends. You do, you just do the, the bit in the middle." But that's why he's a great publisher, because he sees things in these enormous broad strokes and the, the pillars of the story, and then you, you know, go away and build it. He's visionary, and I don't use that term lightly.

   9. CWChris Williamson9:35

      It's easy. It's, for all that he might be visionary, giving someone 1,000 years of history to try and put into a book when you don't have to go and do the research yourself, that is ... it's laying out the battle plans but not having to, uh, sort of step foot in the mud quite so much.

   10. DJDan Jones9:54

       Yeah, he's a great general.

   11. CWChris Williamson9:56

       (laughs)

   12. DJDan Jones9:57

       (laughs) Yeah, and he's good at business.

   13. CWChris Williamson9:58

       Directing around. All right, so-

   14. DJDan Jones10:00

       No, look, I, I, I love that. I love that. That's the challenge. I don't d- like, I don't take well to micromanagement. You give me a task, I will perform it, and I will usually, although not always, but usually give you a good result. Uh, but don't come micromanaging me. Leave it to me. I know best. So that's my working at- that's my basic working attitude. Um, and, and so we jell quite well. He has a great idea. I, I do it, and he doesn't mess with me. Give him a good book, and then he sells it. So-

   15. CWChris Williamson10:32

       And then a book arrives.

   16. DJDan Jones10:33

       That's like, that's a great way to work. That's a boss. Most people's bosses, they're not like that. Most people's bosses, they're like ... There's that Bill Hicks sketch about the boss. Do you re- do you ever listen to Bill Hicks?

   17. CWChris Williamson10:47

       Yeah, but not this one.

   18. DJDan Jones10:50

       He just s- he's just talking why he likes being a stand-up comedian. And he goes, the only thing really he likes about being a stand-up comedian, 'cause he just whinges about the, the long days on the road and the broke- failed relationships and all that stuff, and he goes, "But the thing about being a stand-up comedian is you don't have a boss." And, uh, the same is true about being a popular or a, you know, trade historian. You don't have a boss.

   19. CWChris Williamson11:13

       With, with a good publisher.

   20. DJDan Jones11:15

       Good publisher. Don't have a boss. Who wants a boss? I don't want a boss.

   21. CWChris Williamson11:20

       No, you don't.

   22. DJDan Jones11:21

       (laughs) I know.

   23. CWChris Williamson11:21

       No, you don't. No, you don't.

   24. DJDan Jones11:22

       Right?

   25. CWChris Williamson11:22

       You don't have to worry about it. All right, so the begin-

3. 11:25 – 19:26

   Why Rome Was Destroyed

   1. CWChris Williamson11:25

   2. DJDan Jones11:25

      Not for me.

   3. CWChris Williamson11:25

      The begin- Yeah, yeah, yeah, the beginning. Let's get to the beginning, right? Why does, why is Rome fucked? Why, why, why is that wrecked?

   4. DJDan Jones11:36

      Well, Gibbon took six volumes to get, get to the bottom of this, didn't he? But let's, let's try it quickly. Um, the ... There are lots of reasons why the Roman Empire in the West fell in the fifth century. In Powers and Thrones, I start at the very beginning and, uh, start with a, a cyclical shift in the climate of the Mediterranean world. After the Roman climate optimum, a period of relatively warm wea- relatively wet weather, highly conducive to agriculture-... um, highly conducive to an empire feeding itself. After that entered a sort of cyclical downturn of slightly cooler, slightly drier, uh, regional climate, um, and Rome came under- so that's the sort of fr- that's the climate framing. And then Rome comes under enormous pressure from waves of migrants, waves set in chain by a, a short, sharp mega drought, uh, in the Far East, which moved tribes called the Huns. Huns bumped into the Goths and the Alans. Uh, Alan, uh- uh, the Goths and the Alans, particularly the Goths, found their way towards the borders of the Ro- of the Roman Empire in both east, uh, and eventually west, um, put enormous pressure on a political system that was already, uh, faltering because of problems, some of which were related to simple size. The Roman Empire was, was too massive to be... Uh, it wa- it was like a very unstable, very large star. You know, they, they, they, they start to become unstable under the, the pressure of their own mass and gravity. And so that had, that had, that had been a sort of long-term process within the Roman Emperor- Empire. So there's this sort of combination of factors, which by the beginning of the fifth century, lead to, uh, a sort of breaking up process of the Western Roman Empire. And then in 410, the symbolic sacking of Rome, um, not just symbolic, I mean, damaging and, and, uh, uh, and shocking, but most of all symbolic, sacking of Rome by Alaric and, and the Goths. And that didn't herald the immediate end of the Roman Empire or even the immediate end of the Roman Empire in the west. But it, it was a sort of... I mean, the, the crass modern analogy is with 9/11. It was a sort of, uh, even at the time, it seemed like a sea change kind of moment, which seemed to herald a new phase in history and in retrospect, uh, has be- has retained that, um, that reputation.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:17

      All right. So Rome's fucked. Why was it that for the rest of time, no one appears to have been able to replicate a empire of their sort of size? I guess the British tried to do it, but we're outside of the Middle Ages then. Was there something just inherently unstable about our area of the world?

   6. DJDan Jones14:37

      Oh, so you mean an empire in Europe or an empire in the world?

   7. CWChris Williamson14:41

      Yeah. An, an empire in Europe.

   8. DJDan Jones14:44

      Napoleon would have something to say.

   9. CWChris Williamson14:46

      Was that equivalent sizing to the Roman Empire?

   10. DJDan Jones14:49

       All right, I mean, Napoleon and Charlemagne. Okay. No, so look, the R- the Romans are the only imperial power to have ruled the entire coastal literal of the Mediterranean. You can... So we'll give them that. Um, uh, which is hard to do, just hard to do. I mean, that's like (laughs) Napoleon would, would probably have liked that-

   11. CWChris Williamson15:08

       Why is it hard to do?

   12. DJDan Jones15:09

       ... because it's a vast, uh, area in the, just in the first instance. Although, yes, of course, the British have, have commanded a great empire. The Mongols commanded an enormous land empire in the, in the Middle Ages and, uh, the Arabs, uh, you know, the first Islamic caliphate probably came the closest to emulating Rome. Um, but the Roman imperial system was, uh, was, was uniquely, um, effective for its time. And you had a sort of perfect combination of overwhelming, um, by an order of magnitude, military capability. Uh, sort of analogous to the modern United States, but sort of much, much greater than the modern United States in, in comparison to every other power, certainly in their region. You had in the sort of peak of the imperial, um, age, a, a highly effective, um, sort of, uh, and, uh, replicable political system with a, with, uh, well, I think was ver- very important about it was, um, a, a pan-Roman culture, a culture that went beyond sort of regional culture. Um, so that Romans living in villas in Britannia would feel something in common with Romans living in a villa in, uh, North Africa or Sicily or Rome. So, so, you know, so you have a common language. You have, of course, the famous roads. Um, you have the, the concept of citizenship, although, uh, of course, not unique to the Roman Empire, what, what, which, uh, which binds a sort of ruling class together, uh, by self-interest as much as anything else. You have a sophisticated, um, uh, body of law. You know, you, all, all of these ingredients of the Roman Empire come together o- o- they're, they're built up over a long time. Uh, and it's, it's hard to, to attribute their success to one of those things on its own. But in the time since Rome's fall, it's proven difficult. Well, it's proven impossible, uh, for any number of generations for, for another power to put together that sort of unique combination of building blocks of empire. I mean, look, people try... In the Middle Ages, who came closest? Well, I think the, the, as I've said already, the, um, you know, the Umayyad Caliphate up till the middle of the eighth century. Um, I think, you know, Charlemagne gave it a good go, uh-Uh, although, though, you know, that, the problem with, um, with Charlemagne's empire was that it, it was like Napoleon's, which I've also mentioned, highly dependent on one charismatic and, uh, um, visionary individual at the, the head of it.

   13. CWChris Williamson18:35

       Should have got-

   14. DJDan Jones18:36

       Which was Roman emperor.

   15. CWChris Williamson18:36

       ... should have got your publisher.

   16. DJDan Jones18:38

       Yeah, like he'd be a great, um, he'd, he'd be ... He's an, uh, empire builder.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:43

       Should have got him in.

   18. DJDan Jones18:46

       But he wasn't around.

   19. CWChris Williamson18:48

       Should have fixed it. Should have worked it out somehow.

   20. DJDan Jones18:50

       Okay. (laughs) I'll ask Bill and Ted.

   21. CWChris Williamson18:53

       Should have got some sort of a solution, got him in, could have published some great books and held onto an empire for a bit longer.

   22. DJDan Jones18:59

       It would have been a tyrannical empire.

   23. CWChris Williamson19:01

       (laughs)

   24. DJDan Jones19:01

       But then that is the, uh, the most effective.

   25. CWChris Williamson19:04

       But you said he just lets everyone get on with their own thing. It would have been fine.

   26. DJDan Jones19:08

       Uh, he lets me get ... I didn't say, "He lets everyone get on with their own thing."

   27. CWChris Williamson19:11

       Oh, okay.

   28. DJDan Jones19:12

       That's what I mean, get on with my ...

   29. CWChris Williamson19:13

       He's able to give sovereignty to those who deserve it.

   30. DJDan Jones19:15

       Right. Okay. That's a good leadership principle.
4. 19:26 – 32:57

   Hard People Throughout Time

   1. CWChris Williamson19:26

      people that deserve it, not for you.

   2. DJDan Jones19:27

      Jocko doesn't come with a lot of caveats, does he?

   3. CWChris Williamson19:30

      No, fairly simple, him and Goggins, fairly simple. Write it on the back of a Post-It Note.

   4. DJDan Jones19:35

      Which Goggins? Walton Goggins?

   5. CWChris Williamson19:36

      David Goggins.

   6. DJDan Jones19:38

      I don't know about that guy. I only know about Walton Goggins.

   7. CWChris Williamson19:40

      David Goggins is like a hardcore, black, thinner Jocko out of the Marines. So he was a Marine and then he's done ultra races and he goes on Rogan and he swears a lot and he says, "Stay hard," and ...

   8. DJDan Jones20:02

      (laughs) That's good advice.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:03

      And that's what he does, yes. (laughs)

   10. DJDan Jones20:04

       You can't fault that advice.

   11. CWChris Williamson20:06

       No, you can't. (laughs)

   12. DJDan Jones20:07

       In both situations.

   13. CWChris Williamson20:08

       (laughs) But he seems to say it to every situation, actually.

   14. DJDan Jones20:12

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson20:12

       It's like, it's like a one size fixes all solution to just stay hard, um, which Jocko doesn't talk about actually. So maybe that's ... Maybe if you were to blend the two together, you'd have someone who would have a great tan-

   16. DJDan Jones20:26

       Jocko. Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:27

       ... uh, they'd have good endurance. They'd be a Brazilian, uh, jujitsu black belt.

   18. DJDan Jones20:32

       They all do jujitsu though. Do you do jujitsu?

   19. CWChris Williamson20:34

       No, I don't, and I don't think that David Goggins does, but he does tie his hands behind his back and his feet together and get dropped into water quite a lot because he's got, he's got a fear of water. So he overcomes his fear of water by being hogtied and thrown in, um-

   20. DJDan Jones20:49

       There's a, there's a sort of historical tradition going on. I, I know it's, like, new because the, the broadcasting medium is new, but that kind of goes, like, that definitely goes back to Houdini, doesn't it?

   21. CWChris Williamson20:59

       Mm-hmm.

   22. DJDan Jones21:00

       Like super physically hard and gonna do some ridiculous stunts, but's gonna, you know, scare the shit out of you if you empathize for one second.

   23. CWChris Williamson21:10

       (laughs)

   24. DJDan Jones21:11

       You know, if David Blaine had come along, like, 15, 20 years later, that dude would have ... He'd have been a Jocko or whatever, I think.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:18

       You reckon?

   26. DJDan Jones21:20

       Yeah, I think so.

   27. CWChris Williamson21:21

       I think he's a bit mindful for that. I think he's a bit sort of complex. Not that Jocko and Goggins are simple humans.

   28. DJDan Jones21:31

       Oh, no. Oh, no. (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson21:32

       But, yeah, just in case they're listening, because he'll fuck me up. Um, but I do think that they're ...

   30. DJDan Jones21:41

       Thank you.
5. 32:57 – 40:15

   Medieval Archetypes

   1. CWChris Williamson32:57

      off. Right, what about, what about the sort of stereotype poster boy then for the Middle Ages? That's got to be knights. Is it? Knights and kind of everyone thinks Middle Ages-

   2. DJDan Jones33:06

      Yeah. N-

   3. CWChris Williamson33:06

      ... and they think knights?

   4. DJDan Jones33:08

      Uh, well, it's two things, isn't it? I mean, if I'm, if I said to you, uh, "Chris, do you fancy coming to my medieval fancy dress party?"

   5. CWChris Williamson33:16

      Yeah.

   6. DJDan Jones33:16

      Assuming you weren't just totally weirded out by the vision-

   7. CWChris Williamson33:18

      Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Middle Ages, medieval. What's, what's going on there? It's the same word but different-

   8. DJDan Jones33:28

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:29

      Oh.

   10. DJDan Jones33:29

       One, one's the Latinate and one's...

   11. CWChris Williamson33:32

       Oh. So they're just interchangeable?

   12. DJDan Jones33:34

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson33:35

       Ah, cool. Sweet.

   14. DJDan Jones33:36

       Except medieval is an adjective and Middle Ages isn't.

   15. CWChris Williamson33:39

       Okay. Fine.

   16. DJDan Jones33:40

       Don't worry. You can use either. There's no judgment-

   17. CWChris Williamson33:43

       I will.

   18. DJDan Jones33:44

       ... on my history Peloton. Um...

   19. CWChris Williamson33:49

       Knights.

   20. DJDan Jones33:50

       Now, so if I'm inviting you to my medieval fancy dress party, the high, my hypothetical medieval... Don't worry, I'm not having one and then not going to invite you after this show.

   21. CWChris Williamson33:57

       Okay.

   22. DJDan Jones33:59

       It's a hypothetical party. I say, "You know, you've got to come in costume." You know, I think you're coming as one of two th- you're, you want a three things. Like, you might come as, uh, like a saucy wench. You might do that.

   23. CWChris Williamson34:14

       Yep.

   24. DJDan Jones34:14

       I know you very well and I-

   25. CWChris Williamson34:15

       I could see, yeah, I can see me doing that.

   26. DJDan Jones34:17

       You could be like, "Ah, I'm going to go-"

   27. CWChris Williamson34:17

       I've got good legs. I've got good legs.

   28. DJDan Jones34:20

       But put that aside.

   29. CWChris Williamson34:21

       Okay.

   30. DJDan Jones34:22

       If the wench option's off the table, I say that no wenches, okay? Uh, if the wench option is off the table, I think you're going to come as either, uh, a knight or, or you know, a version of a knight or you're going to come as a monk.
6. 40:15 – 47:45

   Pandemics in the Middle-Ages

   1. DJDan Jones40:15

   2. CWChris Williamson40:16

      Talking about the modern day in Millwall and stuff that happens now.

   3. DJDan Jones40:20

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson40:20

      Just coming out the back end of a pandemic hopefully. Uh, lot of pandemics in the middle ages? Lot of those running rampage?

   5. DJDan Jones40:28

      Yeah, there's two in the middle ages, yeah. I mean there's the, the big one's are Black Death, the 14th century.

   6. CWChris Williamson40:34

      Near- nearly the end though, they just pipped the post. You know, they only had 100 years before Rome got wrecked again, and then they'd have been missed off. They'd have been in whatever comes after.

   7. DJDan Jones40:43

      Well, there, there's an argument that says no Black Death, uh, a, a much delayed renaissance and, you know, the, the counterfactual with no Black Death is very, very, very hard to play. Um, so I, it's not a, we can't be... We can't be too certain that, uh, had the Black Death not come along you would still have seen the Sack of Rome in 1527. But, you know, as to your first question, the, the big pandemics of the middle ages, yeah, you've got, look Black Death of, of, uh, mid-14th century and then the waves all the way through to 1390s. And much earlier than that, in fact, 800, uh, years earlier than that you have the Justinianic plague, Plague of Justinian. Harder really to be certain about its, its spread, its virulence. Uh, much more, much more reliant on impressionistic evidence-

   8. CWChris Williamson41:43

      What's that?

   9. DJDan Jones41:44

      ... with the Justinianic plague. Well, the, the accounts of chronicles saying, "Oh my God, it was terrible. There was like mad lockdowns and thousands of people dying all the time." Um, y- you know, there's, there is far less, like I'm getting super nerdy, so... The Justini- Justinianic plague of the sixth century AD seems to have been similar to the Black Death in that it was a form of, uh, bubonic plague, sp- uh, which mutated very, very, very infectious and very, very, very deadly. The trouble is-We know a lot about the Black Death and very little about the Justinianic plague. And a lot of what we have to surmise about the Justinianic plague is surmised by taking what we know of the Black Death and then transposing its, uh, say its rate of spread and its lethality back onto the fragments of evidence we have from the sixth century so that the range of estimates of how many people... So with the Black Death in the 14th century, we know with a reasonable degree of certainty that it's, uh, 50-60% of the population of Western Europe are killed by the Black Death. We can, we, we can be quite certain about that. Although it varies from place to place, we can be quite certain about that. However, because of the fragmentary nature of the evidence about the sixth century Justinianic plague, you're sort of using models from the 14th century and putting them on top of very, very s- uh, scant evidence. And s- and so the high range of estimates for deaths in the Justinianic plague I think runs to like 100 million, but the low range runs to about 50,000. So-

   10. CWChris Williamson43:43

       Good confidence interval.

   11. DJDan Jones43:45

       Well, it's a problem, right? Now if you just read the chroniclers of the... from the sixth century, that tallies with this idea that it's, it's closer to 100 million than to 50,000. But the trouble is that chroniclers, we, we don't tend to trust chroniclers and they tend to get a bit hot under the collar. I mean, if you only had Daily Mail and... or Sun or Guardian editorials to go by as your, as your historical source, you would have somewhat warped idea about the history of the current pandemic, right?

   12. CWChris Williamson44:20

       Uh-

   13. DJDan Jones44:22

       You want some stats, you want some data, man. Give me some data. Give me some hard data.

   14. CWChris Williamson44:26

       Chronic-

   15. DJDan Jones44:27

       Give me st-

   16. CWChris Williamson44:27

       Chroniclers. Is, could... is that not what chroniclers are supposed to do? It's kind of in the name, chronicling things, not pundits, punditras. That wasn't their name.

   17. DJDan Jones44:35

       Yes, but there's... so, um, but if you take a... we, we, we recall, say, Procopius of Caesarea, a chronicler, um, he'd fall into... under that broad term because he writes histories, uh, and contemporary histories of what he's living through in the age of Justinian. But the guy is much closer to a paid-by-the-inch, um, like shock columnist. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson45:09

       Gossip, gossip. Go on.

   19. DJDan Jones45:10

       No, not gossip. I mean, a sort of a... like a rented opinion. He's not quite Katie Hopkins, uh, well, as, as was before she got whacked. Or he's, he's like Piers Morgan, right?

   20. CWChris Williamson45:23

       Oh, yeah.

   21. DJDan Jones45:24

       What's the issue of the day? Morgan's got two takes and he just, like, goes, "Okay, that one." Uh, and he's, he's absolutely brilliant. I mean, totally amoral as a journalist. I don't know him personally, maybe a nice guy and may not be, I don't know. But, um, as a journalist, he's brilliant. Uh, because he's either comple- like completely enraging or completely sympathetic depending on just where you stand on, on this particular issue. And Procopius of Caesarea is sort of similar, very, very similar to Piers Morgan. So if you take... here's a good example I guess. Procopius of Caesarea is, is, you know, supposedly a chronicler. Well, he's just writing what happened. Like Morgan would say, "I'm just a journalist," you know. Um, spends half his career toadying up unbelievably to Justinian the emperor, unbelievably. You know, the sort of flatterer, the kind of writing the histories of the wars of Justinian and kind of blowing endless smoke up the emperor's arse. And then he writes The Secret History, which is like a... the most offensive, damning, um, tell-all, expose, character assassination, mudslinging, like horror show of an account of Justinian and Theodora, uh, which smears them, absolutely smears them. I mean, it's, it's so entertaining, it's great, but it's like a hell of a flip-flop. Um, and people sort of scratch their heads, "Oh, this is..." you know, "What, what's going on with Procopius of Caesarea?" Man, just look at Piers Morgan and Meghan, okay? The dude couldn't get his nose out of her. Uh, and then she kind of snubbed him and so he becomes her worst enemy. It's an old story. It's an old story. Um, but it's... no, so, so anyway, the point was... is, is, you know, chroniclers, no, they don't just chronicle, of course, they're, they're, they're opinion formers and they-

   22. CWChris Williamson47:36

       Spins.

   23. DJDan Jones47:36

       They... yeah, that was... that's, that's the old-fashioned... you've shown your age there. Yeah, you spin.

   24. CWChris Williamson47:40

       (laughs)

   25. DJDan Jones47:40

       You grew up at the age of spin.

   26. CWChris Williamson47:42

       Spinny Hendrix. It's because I love The Thick Of It, that's why.

7. 47:45 – 1:04:25

   Innovation in Medieval Times

   1. CWChris Williamson47:45

   2. DJDan Jones47:45

      Yeah. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson47:45

      Uh, what about technology? There's like... the Dark Ages are completely encompassed by this Middle Ages period. What about techno-... 'cause it feels... I don't know, this is me talking as the guy that doesn't know what the fuck he's talking... doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about most of the time, but specifically when it comes to the history of the planet that I live on. And I don't see... it feels like Rome had a lot sorted, and then you come out the other side at the Renaissance and we've got... what have we got to show for it? Like some art, some castles, which you have profited from massively. And-

   4. DJDan Jones48:26

      Not-

   5. CWChris Williamson48:26

      (laughs)

   6. DJDan Jones48:27

      Don't presume. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson48:30

      And some death, some plagues. Like there's no one adventuring or technologying during this period? What's happening?

   8. DJDan Jones48:42

      Well, there's no doubt that the Roman Empire had, um, achieved a sort of technological spike in the graph, if you like. Um, very inventive and ingenious, uh, age, underpinned, of course, by, uh, mass slavery. And one of the reasons that, uh, certain societies have been able to build fast and high and impressive and large is because they've enslaved, uh, tens of, uh, you know, ancient Egyptians and r-

   9. CWChris Williamson49:14

      Aliens, aliens, like the Egyptians enslaved, yes.

   10. DJDan Jones49:17

       Yes, yes. Of course. Uh, I'd forgotten about that. Um, (smacks lips) so, but, you know, there's no, ............................ So, after the breakup of the Roman Empire in the west, there's no doubt that you see all sorts of networks broken, uh, over what used to be the Western Roman Empire. Some of those are knowledge networks and some of those are technological exchange networks, and some of those, uh, just, uh, wealth networks. So it takes a long time for, certainly Western Europe, and I'm, I'm, I'm being quite specific about Western Europe, to recover, uh, to a point of, of similar technological sophistication. But it doesn't take as long as you're suggesting. So-

   11. CWChris Williamson50:04

       When do you think that is? When do they get back to, uh ...

   12. DJDan Jones50:08

       Well, I mean, whether it's, it's about getting back to par, but getting back to a, um, a society that is, uh, becoming, that is every generation seems to be becoming wealthier and more creative and more inventive and more, um, thirsty for knowledge and more capable of deploying that knowledge to useful ends. It's around the millennium that you s- you start to see technology, new technologies starting to transform the way that people live. Let's, let's take, uh, one small example. We talked earlier, uh, we didn't really talk earlier, we mentioned earlier knights. If you take the stirrup, um, and the arrival, the importation of stirrup technology from east to west, when, eighth century maybe, ninth century, 10th century? Some time like this. It takes a while to, to arrive and, and to spread. But certainly by the millennium, the stirrup, people are riding with stirrups by the 12th century. It's just part of running. In fact, you couldn't have knights without stirrups, because you couldn't ... If you think about, um, trying to joust on horseback. If you, if you're given a lance, you're gonna need a couple of things on the horse. You're gonna need a saddle, right? And you're gonna need stirrups. Because otherwise, if you ride that horse at something and try and jab it with that lance, what's gonna happen is the horse will go that way and you will go that way. And it'll be comical till you break your pelvis on your fall.

   13. CWChris Williamson51:40

       (laughs)

   14. DJDan Jones51:40

       It'll still be comical, but not for you. Uh, so, the, the ar- the invention of the stirrup enables a s- uh, a military revolution, because it enables the development of Frankish cavalry. And Frankish cavalry, to take one example, are, uh, uh, a central part of the success of the First Crusade. Now, the First Crusade, is, uh, we could argue was a transformative political, uh, event in the history of the whole Middle Ages. But the, and the, uh, although this sounds a bit butterfly effect, but the First Crusade might not have been possible without the invention of the stirrup. Which seems to us an impossibly simple piece of technology, but it's, it's very important. And from that point, uh, you know, from around the 10th, 11th century, you start to see in Western Europe, um, inventions. You know, windmills. Windmills sound kind of boring, but they, they, they're incredibly important for, uh, the development of agriculture. Um, I see a rising population which is able to feed itself better because you have, um, uh, you know, you have improvements in plow technology. These are unglamorous things, but, you know, agricultural technology improves, military technology improves. Um, so it's earlier than you think that the difference starts to be made. The astrolabe comes back into society. Or comes into, you know, Western society from, uh, from the Greeks and the Arabs. Uh, and that makes navigation a lot easier.

   15. CWChris Williamson53:08

       What about warfare? Any warfare technology developments?

   16. DJDan Jones53:11

       Oh, by the 14th century, you're starting to see gunpowder. I mean, that's an in- I mean, gunpowder is a sort of end of the middle, late Middle Ages, end of the Middle Ages kind of phenomenon. And we tend to associate the arrival of gunpowder on the battlefields with the end of the Middle Ages. But, um, it's, it's there quite early on in the, again, in the west. Uh, uh, in, in, in the late Middle Ages. So, um, and then in, in armor technology. Yeah. Like we see armor and arms. I mean, think about ... What's a good example? Frankish swords. Franks are extremely famous for, uh, for producing high quality swords. Um, you've got-

   17. CWChris Williamson53:54

       What was so, what was so high quality about them? What did they do?

   18. DJDan Jones53:57

       So they're-

   19. CWChris Williamson53:57

       Better for stabbing with.

   20. DJDan Jones53:58

       So they're supported steel. Well, no, it doesn't shatter on impact, mainly. Um, capabl- capable of maintaining a sharper b- a sharper edge. Uh, if you think about the developments in armor between, I mean, think about the Norman ... It calls your eyes to think about the Bayeux Tapestry, as I, uh, I say to all my lovers. Um, and what are they wearing? Like, mail link armor. It's, the colloquial term is chainmail. That's tautology. But, you know, mail armor. Uh, the development of that to, by the 14th century, largely plate armor, enables, um, heavier fighting closer at hand on foot. And, and, and bigger armies required. Longbow technology, and then ... Lots of developments that seem, seem quite primitive to us because we, we're in a nuclear age, and, uh, we're post-... the barbed wire and machine guns in the trenches. But, uh, technological... And then, and then you mentioned navigation. Well, again, by the early 15th century, you've got boat technology and navigation technology improving to the point that, you know, two generations before Columbus sailed for the, uh, for the Indies and bumped into the Americas. Um, you know, Henry the Navigator, the Portuguese sending ships ever further down the West African coast, uh, and coming back. It wasn't, the problem wasn't going down the coast, it was coming back. Uh, so, uh, but long before that even, if you look around the turn of the millennium, if we go back to sort of where I started, uh, you've got Europeans in the Americas then. The Vikings over at L'Anse aux Meadows around the year 1000. So, many of technology is, uh, is more sophisticated than perhaps we give it credit for.

   21. CWChris Williamson55:46

       Mm. Yeah, it's a weird one because the way that technology works, it enables further developments to be made, so you do have this sort of exponential curve that comes in as something gets enabled, then that enables something else that goes down there. And it kind of feels like where you're leaving the story, whatever, 1500 and a bit, that there's a lot of the fundamental pieces in place to allow pirates within 300 years, to allow bigger buildings, to allow faster development, faster travel, so on and so forth, more dangerous weapons. Um-

   22. DJDan Jones56:23

       Well, okay, but let's take those in, in turns. Pirates, there have always been pirates. Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson56:29

       But they've been able to travel as far across the ocean? Would they have been able to do-

   24. DJDan Jones56:34

       Depends how far. You don't need to travel very far to be a pirate. I mean, if you look at, uh, um-

   25. CWChris Williamson56:39

       Caribbean, obviously. That's where Jack Sparrow is.

   26. DJDan Jones56:41

       Yeah, of course. Yeah, like you've just watched too many movies. That's, that's the problem here.

   27. CWChris Williamson56:44

       Yeah, yeah, because I'm alive.

   28. DJDan Jones56:45

       The, no. The, then the pirate, the pirates, The Pirates of the Mediterranean is a, is a story that you, you could set in any bloody age, really. Um-

   29. CWChris Williamson56:53

       Pirates of the Mediterranean, that's what they should have done.

   30. DJDan Jones56:55

       Oh, so then... Yeah, it sounds like, you know. Of course.
8. 1:04:25 – 1:11:38

   Making History More Accessible

   1. CWChris Williamson1:04:25

      fucking cool is it as a historian, and how fortunate are we as an audience right now for the kind of environment or ecology that history's got going on? So, like, Timeline World History Documentaries on YouTube, I tweeted this earlier on today. That should be £20 a month. Like, that YouTube channel should be £20 a month. History Hit, all of the stuff that you do. Like, there's just, it's f- like from your side of the aisle, you know, as a creator-

   2. DJDan Jones1:04:56

      Sure.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:04:56

      ... and as a historian, is it like, "Fuck, this is like a, a big resurgence of, of history content and interest, and it's cool and accessible," and like, not sexy-

   4. DJDan Jones1:05:06

      Well, it's been building. It's not-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:05:06

      It's not, it's not quite sexy.

   6. DJDan Jones1:05:07

      I don't sense a resurgence.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:05:08

      But-

   8. DJDan Jones1:05:08

      Look, (clears throat) Chris, 20 years ago when I was studying, I was an undergraduate, it was 22 years ago, um, I was taught to write by David Starkey. And so at that point, Starkey was at the absolute pinnacle of his, uh, his fame. And, um, he was doing, he was doing six million viewers on Channel 4 for his shows about Eli- Elizabeth. Six million. Six million. That's a, a Trumpism that I, I need to shake. Um, that's incredible. And then Sharma was on the telly doing History of Britain, like banging out millions of viewers. Like, there was, there was mad money going into commissioning from certainly Channel 4 and BBC. Uh, and loads of people were saying, "Oh, you know, history's kind of cool again." So, but it hasn't really tailed off from there. Like, the, the, the budgets in broadcasting, like from the networks, are, are through the floor now. And even The Castle Show that Vi commissioned, well, the budget for that was, I, I would, uh, I can't remember, but let's say it was in the ballpark maybe slightly under 200 grand an hour. Which was good, decent then, but not exceptional. Well, now budgets are like, uh, last time I checked, about 80 grand an hour for similar ambition of programming and your time in both the field and the edit is like, oh, nothing. So there has certainly been a drop off in, uh, the ambition of network TV commissioning. And at the same time, you've seen streamers come in who will commission history. I mean, net- Netflix and-... mostly networks. But if you got a commission in history on history docs type stuff on Netflix, it's got to have like Clooney doing the voiceover or, um, Nic Cage in it or some shit like that. So, uh, so there, you know, there, there's not... The middle of the market on the TV has fallen out. But as you correctly identified, people like my man Dan Snow doing mad stuff with history here. It's, it's fantastic and there, there's, you know, there are so many broadcasters and outlets and so many people podcasting and, you know, BBC History Extra have, have stepped into, you know, where there's a nimble, uh, approach to commissioning that their, um, their, uh, the BBC institution notably lacks. Um, so there, there is loads of a- of, there are loads of channels to market. There's enormous public enthusiasm for history. There are lots of people doing it, most of whom are extremely nice and collegiate and friendly to one another. We don't really have the kind of, uh, bitchy hatreds and rivalries of that Shana Starkey era. So it's, like it's good times. It's really, really good times. And, um, uh, I'm, I'm like blessed to be doing it.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:08:09

      What are you doing next? We got your fiction book out as well as this.

   10. DJDan Jones1:08:11

       I'm doing history, I'm doing fiction. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson1:08:13

       Yeah, fuck that. (laughs)

   12. DJDan Jones1:08:15

       I'm out, I'm out. I'm good. Quit.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:08:16

       Can make it up.

   14. DJDan Jones1:08:17

       Um, I can s-... I don't know. No, I do know. I don't know about in terms of history anymore. Uh, but I do know that I've got... So next week, assuming this, maybe it's this week, who-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:08:29

       Maybe it's last week.

   16. DJDan Jones1:08:29

       ... on the 7th of October-

   17. CWChris Williamson1:08:31

       Yeah.

   18. DJDan Jones1:08:33

       ... I've got a little ghost story coming out, which I wrote on Hallowe- for Halloween last year. Um, and that's an original medieval ghost story written about the year 1400s called The Tale of the... Well, I've called it The Tale of the Tailor in... The Tale of the Tailor and the Three Dead Kings. It's a little tiny book, um, re- a rewritten, retold original medieval ghost story. That's, that's super fun. And then I'm doing a, uh, historical fiction trilogy. So next autumn, the first one comes out. It's called Essex Dogs and it's about... It's the, the... All three books are set in the Hundred Years' War and Essex Dogs is set in 1346, the Crecy campaign. The second one is set in the Siege of Calais. The third one is something else. But they take the sensibility of the sort of Apocalypse Now, Platoon, Full Metal Jacket, uh, Band of Brothers, Saving Private Ryan, uh, to an extent, but more the kind of like (imitates metal guitar) sort of hardcore war as hell, late 20th century, uh, dystopian American hard-boiled approach to the war novel and set it in the Middle Ages. So there's no fucking, "Hey nonny, no, my liege, unthe greenwood tree," and everyone's chivalrous and, uh, thinking only of their fair lady. This is like each chapter starts with a line from like Froissart or one of those sort of high faluting chivalry is great chroniclers. And then each chapter, uh, rips the idea of chivalry to bits on the ground because the reality of war for a platoon moving, you know, landing on the Normandy beaches in, uh, in July '46 and then having to fight their way to the rivers, up the rivers and across. And then, and then, you know, after seven weeks in the field, fight a battle. That's horrible. And that's undocumented. Well, it's largely undocumented and, but if you write against the grain of the chronicles it cre- it's, it... You, and you couldn't do it in history. I, I, I don't think it would be possible to do it in history. But it's super possible to do it in fiction and, uh, um, so that's the next project. Uh, I have a, uh, deal with Sony Pictures to develop historical drama. So I'm doing that at the moment. Um, we had one on earlier this year and there's more coming down the line, I hope. Um, and doing a shit ton of Peloton, man. Riding every day. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson1:11:05

       Most important thing.

   20. DJDan Jones1:11:06

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson1:11:06

       Extreme dabbler.

   22. DJDan Jones1:11:09

       Love it.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:11:11

       Dan Jones, ladies and gentlemen. Powers and Thrones will be linked in the show notes below as you go and get it. And, uh, watch out for Dan Jones on your Peloton chasing you down.

   24. DJDan Jones1:11:19

       Thanks, brother.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:11:20

       Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:11:38