Liam Neeson, Fyre Festival & Brian Cox | Catch Up 101

Chris Williamson 0:01 Yeah. We went to a meditation retreat, didn't we?

Jonny 0:03 It was amazing, but it was really difficult. For anyone who is considering doing a meditation retreat, it's really fucking hard.

Chris Williamson 0:10 (laughs)

Jonny 0:10 Why did you buy a MacBook rather than a PC?

Yusef 0:12 Anyone, use a PC for three minutes and it'll answer that question.

Chris Williamson 0:17 So-

Yusef 0:17 So I've been rear-ended twice in the last month.

Chris Williamson 0:20 In a car.

Yusef 0:20 In a car.

Chris Williamson 0:21 We should clarify that.

Jonny 0:22 In a car.

Chris Williamson 0:22 Yeah.

Yusef 0:22 You know what it is? As soon as you feel that impact, the sense is, it's not like, "Ah, my neck." It's, it's just all of the admin flashes before your eyes.

Chris Williamson 0:30 (laughs)

Jonny 0:30 (laughs)

Yusef 0:30 All of the like, "Oh my God-

Chris Williamson 0:32 Like a bright light.

Yusef 0:32 ... the paperwork. Oh."

Chris Williamson 0:33 And fuss with planes.

Jonny 0:34 This is why you shouldn't be allowed on a plane unless you've got an iPhone. And everything would be much simpler, because the people who've made bad decisions would be confined to the, where they live.

Chris Williamson 0:42 You've finally got onto the life hack of getting your hair cut at home, haven't you?

Yusef 0:46 Yeah, I have.

Chris Williamson 0:46 Before the hairdresser went round to his, she texted me to say, "Hang on a second, I'm about to go round to this person's house that I've never met before. I probably should think about my own safety. Is he, is he a weirdo?" And I'm like... (laughs)

Jonny 1:01 (laughs) Ladies and gentlemen, look who's joined me again. Johnny and Yusuf from propanefitness.com. It's been a long while, welcome back.

Yusef 1:12 Welcome.

Jonny 1:13 Thank you. Welcome to us. Welcome to you, sir.

Chris Williamson 1:15 (laughs)

Yusef 1:16 (laughs)

Jonny 1:16 So, today we're doing a catch-up episode. No agenda, no topics in hand other than just what's been going on in our lives recently. So what's been going on in your life recently, Jonathan? What have you been doing? Why do you... I almost went throwing the TV at him.

Chris Williamson 1:30 Jonathan's a famous hot potato.

Jonny 1:31 Oh.

Chris Williamson 1:31 There you go.

Jonny 1:31 Oh, see, I have been on TV.

Yusef 1:33 Today.

Chris Williamson 1:34 Love Island.

Yusef 1:35 On iPlayer.

Chris Williamson 1:35 Love Island 2019.

Jonny 1:37 (laughs) Christ. Love Island, yeah. Yeah.

Yusef 1:39 I bet you couldn't think of anything worse than going to Love Island. Do you not allow that at home?

Jonny 1:42 There are some worse things.

Yusef 1:43 Ads manager is, he's having the offing minutes.

Chris Williamson 1:45 (laughs) You wouldn't be able to do your Facebook ads?

Jonny 1:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:47 So why were you on TV?

Jonny 1:47 God. So I was basically put on TV-

Chris Williamson 1:54 (laughs)

Jonny 1:54 ... by someone who wanted to go on Pointless but didn't have a partner.

Chris Williamson 1:56 (laughs)

Jonny 1:57 So if you, if you don't watch Pointless, it's a, it's aired, I think it's six days a week in the UK. Have you ever seen Pointless?

Chris Williamson 2:05 No.

Jonny 2:06 You've probably seen the bit-

Yusef 2:07 I have not.

Jonny 2:07 ... that I was in.

Chris Williamson 2:07 Yeah.

Jonny 2:08 Right, yeah. So that was very much like me before I realized, like, on the train on the way down, I should probably watch an episode of this.

Chris Williamson 2:15 (laughs)

Jonny 2:16 So-

Yusef 2:16 Just find a hotspot and quickly getting up at the right part.

Jonny 2:18 Yeah.

Yusef 2:18 There was a man, he asked me a question.

Jonny 2:19 So in the, in like the, the warmup, so you arrive, I'm in the room and the woman said, "Sometimes people get to this point and they haven't seen an episode of the show." And I'm like, "Fuck."

Chris Williamson 2:29 (laughs)

Jonny 2:30 Like, I-

Yusef 2:30 So that is a common problem, then? It's not like... 'Cause I thought you would be the only person-

Jonny 2:33 No, no, no. She was making that out to be, at least it's not that bad. You know, at least it's not that ridiculous.

Yusef 2:38 And you were just like...

Jonny 2:39 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 2:40 (laughs)

Jonny 2:40 'Cause, 'cause when you're there, you're in their world and everyone's there taking it very seriously. And the fact that you think it's all pointless and stupid-

Chris Williamson 2:46 Yeah, yeah.

Jonny 2:46 ... pointless, isn't funny. And it's not funny to you either because you're about to go on national TV and potentially be made to look like an absolute prick. But it actually went all right. It actually went all right.

Chris Williamson 2:57 Can you tell us about your jumper? This jumper.

Jonny 2:59 Oh, yeah. No.

Yusef 3:00 No, so-

Jonny 3:00 Oh, the j- oh.

Yusef 3:01 So, so I called Johnny-

Jonny 3:02 (laughs)

Yusef 3:03 ... the day, the day before he had to go down and he was like, "Yousef-"

Jonny 3:05 No, it was the day of.

Yusef 3:06 ... "Yousef, I, I can't talk. I'm in Primark. I'm having a nightmare."

Jonny 3:09 (laughs)

Yusef 3:09 I wasn't allowed to wear any of my jumpers and I have to get a plain orange, green or blue jumper.

Jonny 3:15 It couldn't be-

Yusef 3:15 Oh, it couldn't be green.

Jonny 3:16 So it, the blue had to be a specific-

Yusef 3:19 But you can't, he was like-

Jonny 3:19 ... a very specific blue.

Yusef 3:21 ... "Obviously it can't be green." Oh, okay.

Jonny 3:22 Which is why it was the blue that I was wearing.

Yusef 3:23 And you only have navy jumpers.

Jonny 3:24 So you're not allowed, the biggest problem is you're not allowed anything with a logo.

Chris Williamson 3:27 Yeah. And Yusuf-

Jonny 3:28 'Cause that's obviously-

Chris Williamson 3:28 ... had an embroidery that's three centimeters tall.

Jonny 3:31 Mm.

Chris Williamson 3:31 Like, visible only from up close, but was too much.

Jonny 3:35 Not allowed, yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:35 So that, that's all my clothes. You can't-

Yusef 3:36 You had a name tag, didn't you?

Jonny 3:37 Yeah.

Yusef 3:38 So can they not just stick that on top of the logo?

Jonny 3:39 It depends on the, the position.

Chris Williamson 3:41 The... So the name tag's also got a very-

Jonny 3:43 They, they try and line the, the name tags up because I'm taller than-

Yusef 3:46 Has to be at the mid-point, so it can actually remind them.

Chris Williamson 3:46 What, so was yours at your, your belly button?

Jonny 3:48 Mine was, yeah. No, no.

Chris Williamson 3:49 (laughs)

Jonny 3:49 It was slightly... Mine was mid-thigh.

Chris Williamson 3:53 Yeah.

Jonny 3:53 It's just not how it appears. Um, but yeah, it was, it was fine. It was quite stressful on the day.

Yusef 3:59 I thought you, you came across very well.

Jonny 4:01 Thanks.

Chris Williamson 4:01 I'm excited. Uh, anyone who has not seen Johnny's episode of Pointless, it's now available on BBC iPlayer and will be for-

Yusef 4:06 Only for the next 29 days.

Jonny 4:07 Okay.

Chris Williamson 4:07 So-

Jonny 4:07 So hurry the hell up.

Yusef 4:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:09 You need to go and watch it now. Do you know what episode number it is?

Jonny 4:11 No.

Yusef 4:11 12.

Chris Williamson 4:12 (laughs) Thank you.

Jonny 4:13 Is that a joke?

Yusef 4:14 No.

Chris Williamson 4:15 I'll, uh, if I can find it-

Yusef 4:16 It might be series 12.

Chris Williamson 4:16 ... I will put a link in-

Jonny 4:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:18 ... the show notes below.

Jonny 4:19 Ah, okay.

Chris Williamson 4:19 So go and watch. Yusuf, what's been going on in your life? What's been happening?

Yusef 4:21 I've just been deep in the work cave. Unfortunately there's not... You can see from my pasty complexion, I'm racially Arab and-

Jonny 4:29 (laughs)

Yusef 4:29 ... you wouldn't know.

Jonny 4:30 It's all being sucked out of you.

Chris Williamson 4:31 Yeah.

Yusef 4:32 Um, so I've got my finals coming up, so, uh, in three months' time, if I pass, then-

Jonny 4:38 Doktor.

Yusef 4:39 ... doktor.

Chris Williamson 4:40 You could be, you, you could be looking at someone's ailments.

Yusef 4:43 Yeah.

Jonny 4:43 So it's, it's the semifinals now?

Yusef 4:46 So these are the semifinals.

Jonny 4:47 Right, and then you get, you qualify into the finals.

Yusef 4:48 Into the tournament and the-

Jonny 4:49 Yeah.

Yusef 4:50 ... the premiership.

Chris Williamson 4:50 You've... There's a rou- there's a round robin, isn't there, at the start?

Jonny 4:52 Into, into a league.

Yusef 4:53 That, that's all the football words I know-

Chris Williamson 4:55 (laughs)

Yusef 4:55 ... in, in five seconds.

Chris Williamson 4:56 Offside.

Jonny 4:57 Premiership.

Yusef 4:57 Probably offside. Premiership.

Jonny 4:59 Premierships. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:01 (laughs) Are you showing off? You're showing off with your double pigeon hand.

Jonny 5:03 I've got a slightly tight left hip-

Chris Williamson 5:05 Has it?

Yusef 5:05 (laughs)

Jonny 5:05 ... as it always happens when, when I sit on this fucking sofa.

Chris Williamson 5:08 Yeah. It's a different sofa.

Yusef 5:08 Oh, I've seen you on that podcast with the giant-

Jonny 5:11 (laughs)

Yusef 5:12 ... who's alway- he's always got a, a tight hip.

Jonny 5:13 (laughs) He's always got a... Oh, there.

Chris Williamson 5:14 There was, there was someone who commented under the final video saying, "Why is that blonde guy so big?"

Jonny 5:19 So big, yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:20 And you're like...

Jonny 5:21 'Cause you were just like...

Chris Williamson 5:22 Yeah.

Jonny 5:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:23 That was when you were at peak 105 kilos as well, wasn't it?

Jonny 5:26 So the, the interesting thing, so there's another episode of Pointless, right? That's yet to air. So I thought it was gonna be on tonight, it wasn't on tonight, so there's obviously a gap. Because there was a gap in filming of, like, three months.

Chris Williamson 5:36 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 5:36 And in that time, I think I gained about five kilos and grew my hair.

Chris Williamson 5:42 So you look like a completely different-

Jonny 5:43 So I, yeah, so, so, so fair enough-

Chris Williamson 5:45 You turn up and they're like, "Oh, you've ruined the continuity, Jonny."

Jonny 5:46 I, I bet they were about to run them day by day on the life. Fuck, now we, now we twerk like we can't now.

Chris Williamson 5:51 Did they?

Jonny 5:51 'Cause they, they say, like, try not to change your appearance and I'm sort of like, "I don't know."

Chris Williamson 5:54 Sorry mate, but how on earth da-

Jonny 5:55 I'd just commenced on project top notch. I'd just moved up a weight class.

Yusef 5:58 You completely stepped in as well.

Jonny 6:00 With me.

Yusef 6:00 So when, in the intro bit with they're like, "Ah, Johnny. Hello. Welcome. What do you do?" And you were like, "I'm an online fitness coach." And they were like...

Chris Williamson 6:07 Well, what's that? Yeah. (laughs)

Jonny 6:09 So, you, you know, you work in a gym at home, and then you, you tell people-

Chris Williamson 6:12 Nope, no, that's not it. (laughs)

Yusef 6:13 Hmm, no. Pajamas.

Chris Williamson 6:15 (laughs) Yeah, one of the lads the other day had a Skype interview for a placement, and one of the boys that he lives with took a photo from the side, and he'd gone full suit from the waist up.

Yusef 6:26 Oh.

Chris Williamson 6:26 And boxers (laughs) from the waist up.

Jonny 6:28 That's excellent.

Yusef 6:29 The Trevor McDonald.

Chris Williamson 6:32 (laughs)

Yusef 6:34 (laughs)

Jonny 6:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:34 Yeah.

Yusef 6:34 What's been happening in Chris? Inside of Chris?

Chris Williamson 6:38 Inside of me?

Yusef 6:39 Inside of the Chris conversation?

Chris Williamson 6:40 I don't think you should know. Um, we went to a-

Yusef 6:42 Which one?

Chris Williamson 6:42 We did a ... What is that in your water?

Yusef 6:44 It's a pube.

Chris Williamson 6:45 I don't think it's a pube.

Yusef 6:46 (laughs) Maybe it's one of my beard hairs.

Jonny 6:48 It's unlikely to be a pube.

Chris Williamson 6:48 Most likely.

Yusef 6:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:50 Most likely, yeah.

Yusef 6:51 I, you w- it's funny how you just assume short hair is a pube.

Chris Williamson 6:55 Pube. Short hair.

Yusef 6:55 When actually, it's more likely to be-

Jonny 6:57 Someone saying there's a pube is very year nine.

Chris Williamson 7:02 (laughs)

Yusef 7:04 So, yeah.

Jonny 7:05 Was there, there are supposed to be jeans called pubes. Am I making that up?

Chris Williamson 7:08 (laughs) Yeah.

Jonny 7:09 Maybe.

Chris Williamson 7:09 Think so.

Yusef 7:10 Another year nine thing, wearing the chain with your wallet on.

Chris Williamson 7:13 (laughs)

Jonny 7:14 (laughs)

Yusef 7:14 Do you know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 7:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Yusef 7:16 Your school trousers.

Jonny 7:17 Clip it on, and then it comes back and then your wallet goes in your pocket.

Chris Williamson 7:20 Just in case someone was gonna steal-

Jonny 7:21 People used to wear South Park characters on their jeans, you remember them?

Yusef 7:25 Oh, it's like, with little stars.

Jonny 7:26 People used to have a little Kenny or a little Kyle, or Kyle? Stan?

Yusef 7:29 Year seven, flat hair, and then...

Jonny 7:32 Yep.

Yusef 7:32 And then clip. Just-

Jonny 7:33 Shock waves, shock waves, well, wet look.

Yusef 7:34 Shock waves all breaking and yeah.

Jonny 7:36 Vertigo.

Chris Williamson 7:36 We went to a meditation retreat, didn't we?

Yusef 7:38 We did. We did a one day in Harnam Monastery, called-

Chris Williamson 7:43 Harnam?

Yusef 7:44 Harnam Arunagiri.

Chris Williamson 7:46 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 7:47 In-

Chris Williamson 7:47 Bel-say.

Yusef 7:48 Bel-say. Beautiful place.

Chris Williamson 7:49 It was amazing, but it was really difficult. For anyone who is considering doing a meditation retreat, it's really fucking hard.

Jonny 7:55 (laughs)

Yusef 7:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:56 Like, yeah.

Yusef 7:56 It's the physical part of it that's hard, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 7:58 Well, it's just staying awake. Like, do you know what I mean?

Jonny 8:00 Really?

Chris Williamson 8:00 Being, being sedentary but also staying awake, but having your eyes closed.

Jonny 8:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:04 Like, it's an odd blend of-

Jonny 8:06 For that long period of time.

Chris Williamson 8:06 It's an odd blend of, uh-

Jonny 8:08 So where did you sit?

Chris Williamson 8:09 On the floor.

Jonny 8:10 Yeah. Outside? Inside?

Chris Williamson 8:11 So we did fi- pretty much 50/50 of either walking or feel out, as in outside meditation versus, uh, feel in sitting. So I was sat on a beanbag or walking around a lake, which was pretty beautiful.

Jonny 8:23 Basically like a room in the monastery that you go to?

Chris Williamson 8:25 There was a number of rooms.

Jonny 8:27 Is there?

Yusef 8:27 So we went to sit in the Dahmer Hall, where they've got sandalwood burning and a big, big Buddha statue.

Jonny 8:33 Oh, nice.

Yusef 8:33 And just a rack full of different cushions, and you can choose, like, the cushion based on your preference.

Jonny 8:38 Wow.

Chris Williamson 8:38 Yeah.

Jonny 8:38 So, and were there other people there?

Chris Williamson 8:40 Pretty much no one.

Yusef 8:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:41 Quite quiet. They should-

Yusef 8:42 Like the monks, just floating around.

Chris Williamson 8:43 They should speak to, they should speak to us at Voodoo Events. Like, we'd get that place fucking rammed.

Jonny 8:47 Fill it. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:47 Yeah, buzzing.

Yusef 8:48 I bet they'd love that. (laughs)

Jonny 8:49 Get, like, VIP cushions.

Chris Williamson 8:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonny 8:51 Cue jump cushions.

Chris Williamson 8:52 Yeah, exactly.

Jonny 8:53 Buy-one-get-one-free cushion.

Chris Williamson 8:55 Yeah. That's a-all of the, all of the above. Um, what else has been happening? A lot of podcasting-

Jonny 9:00 We went to-

Chris Williamson 9:00 A lot of podcasting. Podcasting with Rory Sutherland, which you enjoyed.

Jonny 9:03 Excellent.

Chris Williamson 9:03 Anyone who has not listened to the episode with Rory Sutherland, go and check it out now. It will be in the show, shownotes below.

Jonny 9:08 Listen for Chris getting absolutely pied when he has something-

Yusef 9:10 Railroaded.

Jonny 9:11 (laughs)

Yusef 9:11 Yeah. (laughs) It is excellent. Good episode.

Chris Williamson 9:13 So, during the podcast with Rory, the British gas man came round to fix his boiler, 'cause he'd had a problem. And Rory's a little bit like, kind of like Brian Blessed from Blackadder. And he's a b-big sort of gruff British man, and he, he speaks like this, "And everything's a bit fucking shit, isn't it?"

Jonny 9:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:29 And he, uh, (laughs) the British Gas guy came round. Obviously, I've cut bits out, but I had to, or I endured the entirety of the exchange, and it was just hilarious. This British Gas guy comes back after he's sent him away, and we're still podcasting. Now, I left this bit in. Sure enough, he comes back into the room, and he's like, "Uh, mate, it's, uh, it's all done in there now." "Uh, b- b- well, Chris, one second." "W- w- what's that?" "Uh, it's, uh, uh, it's all, all f- uh..." "Bloody hell, already?" "Yeah, well, he had a, he had three leaks, actually, coming, one at the top, one in the, one in the middle, one at the bottom." "Uh, uh, I'm, I must give you, I must give you 20 pounds, instead of ten."

Jonny 10:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:05 (laughs)

Yusef 10:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:05 And he goes, "No, m- mate, mate, it's, it's absolutely fine." And he says, "No, no, no, no, no, I insist, I insist."

Jonny 10:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:11 "So, have a, have a good, uh, have a, a wh- what day is it? Uh, uh, it's Friday. Have a, have a, have a good weekend!" And then he (laughs) comes back on the podcast, and he hasn't put his headphones in yet, and I didn't realize, and I said, "Rory, is that a smartwatch you're wearing?" "Right. So, Asia."

Yusef 10:28 (laughs)

Jonny 10:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:28 And I'm like, "Oh, fucking..." (laughs) Like, for anyone who's listening, it just sounds like you've had the biggest cream pie ever.

Jonny 10:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:36 But-

Jonny 10:36 So, so I was gonna ask you did whether he tipped him, 'cause I just heard the, "No, no, no, no, I insist, I insist." And I'm like, he's-

Chris Williamson 10:40 Yeah, I think he got, he got 20 quid out of his wallet and gave it to him.

Jonny 10:43 He, uh, the, the thing that I really liked about him is the way he swears.

Yusef 10:50 Very tactical.

Jonny 10:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:51 (laughs)

Jonny 10:51 'Cause you know when sometimes people use swearing as, as filler?

Chris Williamson 10:54 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 10:55 The way he swears really makes it sound better. It's a better, it's a better sentence-

Chris Williamson 10:59 It's an accentuation. Yeah.

Jonny 11:00 ... because he said fucking or fucking hell.

Chris Williamson 11:02 Yeah.

Jonny 11:02 Brilliant.

Yusef 11:03 It's because it's very deliberate, I think.

Jonny 11:05 Yeah.

Yusef 11:05 Some people swear when they're thinking of words and buying for time.

Jonny 11:07 Fucking, fucking, yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yusef 11:10 Whereas this was-

Jonny 11:10 You do that, don't you? Constantly.

Yusef 11:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:12 All the time.

Jonny 11:12 I swear all the time.

Chris Williamson 11:13 But it's idiosyncratic as well for a lot of people, whereas his is very deliberate.

Jonny 11:16 Yeah.

Yusef 11:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:17 Very precise speech, which I think is, that precise speech is one of the... If you were to design a good podcast guest, all of the best podcasts that I've done are with people who are precise with their speech. There's nothing more or less than they need to say.

Jonny 11:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:29 And they say exactly what they need to.

Jonny 11:31 Yeah.

Yusef 11:31 I just think his opinion, I'm, I feel such an affinity with him because of his opinion towards the shatafa, which is the bum spray.

Chris Williamson 11:39 (laughs)

Yusef 11:39 The high-pressure-

Chris Williamson 11:39 Bless you.

Yusef 11:40 ... bum spray-

Chris Williamson 11:40 (laughs)

Yusef 11:40 ... that they use. 'Cause he was like-

Chris Williamson 11:42 Bless you.

Yusef 11:42 ... "In what other world would you get a bit of poo on your face and just, oh, I'll just wipe that off with a bit of dry paper. It'll be fine. It's, it's a disgrace. I mean, it's absolutely barbaric."

Chris Williamson 11:50 (laughs)

Jonny 11:50 (laughs)

Yusef 11:50 "Like, in what other, the Ar- the Arabs, they've got it, they've got it right, haven't they?" And he goes, the bit where he's-

Jonny 11:55 I still don't know how I feel about this.

Chris Williamson 11:57 What, about the bum spray?

Jonny 11:58 Yeah.

Yusef 11:59 "I mean, wet toilet paper, people think it's just for fucking perverts, don't they?"

Jonny 12:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:03 (laughs)

Yusef 12:04 There's things with people, people with medical problems and perverts, but...

Jonny 12:07 (coughs)

Chris Williamson 12:07 So he, he says that-

Yusef 12:09 ... if we put those pre-wetted toilet papers, rather than on the top shelf of the supermarket where it looks like the, the pervert shelf-

Chris Williamson 12:15 Yeah.

Jonny 12:15 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 12:16 ... if you just put it somewhere that's really accessible-

Chris Williamson 12:18 (laughs) Yeah.

Yusef 12:18 ... then you can turn it into a mainstream thing.

Chris Williamson 12:20 Growing piece of sales.

Jonny 12:20 Well, I just, his, his ... I was saying this to Yusuf. Like, his job is just to sit and think, isn't it? Of, of-

Yusef 12:25 At the top of a big mountain.

Jonny 12:27 ... he's, he's at the top of a big organization and he's just got a big chair in a room-

Chris Williamson 12:30 Cigar in his chest field. (laughs)

Yusef 12:32 Where he just sits and thinks.

Jonny 12:33 ... and thinks about, like, "Where might the world be going?"

Chris Williamson 12:35 So, you ... Um, if you go on Ogilvy's website, and if you listen-

Jonny 12:38 He's not on there, is he?

Chris Williamson 12:38 No, no, he is.

Jonny 12:39 Oh, is he?

Chris Williamson 12:39 So I implore you to go on and have a look, and it says, "Rory Sutherland, Vice Chairman of Ogilvy Advertising." And below that, the, I swear to God, one of the first couple of sentences is something akin to, "Rory created his own job title, which is purposefully vague." (laughs) Like, mate-

Jonny 12:58 'Cause he's the vice, he's the chairman.

Chris Williamson 13:00 Yeah, there will be. It ... But he must be on the board, I'm gonna presume, as well.

Jonny 13:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:04 Um, but then there's, like, Ogilvy UK, Ogilvy blah, blah, blah.

Jonny 13:07 'Cause David Ogilvy is dead.

Chris Williamson 13:09 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 13:10 Yeah, so now it's these ... Set up this massive-

Chris Williamson 13:13 All over the world, man.

Jonny 13:14 ... big, big organization.

Chris Williamson 13:15 They're all, they're all over the world. But yeah, I mean, when he was ... He's ... Some of the stuff he said about, like, "Uh, you know, I, I, I do think that the Russians are probably pretty shit drivers on, uh, uh, you know, on balance, but that's because of the, the ... everyone's ... every car seems to come with a, a bloody g- a, a road traffic camera at the front of it." And you're like-

Yusef 13:32 So, speaking of which, that's another ... So I've been rear-ended twice in the last month.

Jonny 13:37 In a car?

Yusef 13:38 In a car.

Jonny 13:38 We should clarify that.

Chris Williamson 13:39 In a car.

Jonny 13:40 Yeah.

Yusef 13:40 Um, one was my fault, one wasn't. So the guy whose ... was my fault paid for the one who wasn't, so I'm break even.

Jonny 13:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:48 And you've had two great experiences in the m- in, in the middle of it all.

Yusef 13:50 Two incredible experiences. It's, you know what it is? As soon as you feel that impact, the sen- the sense is it's not like, "Ah, my neck." It's, it's just all of the admin flashes before your eyes.

Chris Williamson 14:00 (laughs)

Jonny 14:00 (laughs)

Yusef 14:00 All of the like, "Oh my God-

Chris Williamson 14:02 Like, the bright lights.

Yusef 14:02 ... the paperwork. Oh."

Jonny 14:04 (laughs)

Yusef 14:04 Like, it's so ...

Jonny 14:08 (laughs)

Yusef 14:08 It's such a ... That's way more painful than any whiplash could, could do, 'cause you're like-

Jonny 14:12 There is certainly something afoot here. There's ... I, I think, I-

Chris Williamson 14:17 Things come in clusters like that.

Jonny 14:18 I, well, I, I'd love to know. So I have a theory that people with dash cams get in more accidents (laughs) than people without dash cams.

Yusef 14:24 So ironically, my dash cam, I got a crap one and it didn't record-

Jonny 14:28 (laughs)

Yusef 14:28 ... when it actually needed to work. So got rear-ended the first time, tried to take my dash cam out, plug it into the computer, and it records, like, 30-second clips of journeys that I've done five years ago.

Jonny 14:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:40 (laughs)

Yusef 14:41 Nothing, nothing about the accident that I'd had. And because it was still at home, I was trying to get the footage from it, and I got rear-ended a second time-

Chris Williamson 14:48 It wasn't

Narrator 14:48 Whoa.

Chris Williamson 14:48 ... it happened when you got hit the second time.

Jonny 14:50 Oh my God.

Yusef 14:50 So I'm just gonna get rid of it and buy a dual-facing one, 'cause you think, like-

Jonny 14:54 Yeah.

Yusef 14:54 ... most accidents are-

Chris Williamson 14:54 Well, hang on. Did you just have one facing in one direction?

Yusef 14:56 Just a front-facing.

Chris Williamson 14:57 Okay. Yeah, so then-

Yusef 14:58 To get a dual-facing one that connects to your phone or wifi is almost impossible.

Chris Williamson 15:03 Really?

Yusef 15:04 Yeah. The reviews-

Chris Williamson 15:04 Gap in the market. Someone who has access to small, portable video cameras.

Jonny 15:09 Does it just record onto a hard drive and then reset, reset, reset?

Yusef 15:11 So it records on loop, yeah. And then it has ... Some of them have a sensor, so if you, if it has an impact, it will save the last-

Jonny 15:18 That's clever.

Yusef 15:18 ... ten minutes or whatever.

Chris Williamson 15:18 Mm-hmm. So I mean, a lot of the ... Like, stuff like Canary is, I think it's 28 days that it records on cloud. And then after 28 days, it'll just-

Jonny 15:27 I don't know what Canary is.

Yusef 15:28 Home security. Oh, I see.

Chris Williamson 15:29 Yeah, ho- like, same as Nest or whatever, whatever.

Jonny 15:31 Right.

Chris Williamson 15:31 Um, speaking of which, Darren got a Nest. I think I've told you this before.

Jonny 15:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:35 He got a Nest, which is like a smart, uh, thermostat for your house. And because he's, him and his wife have got a young child and dogs and he has a chaotic working environment, like, there's no contin-

Jonny 15:47 Sorry. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:49 Is that ... I mean, vibrating phone during a podcast is ... Is that, is that-

Jonny 15:52 Uh, what do you want me to do? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:53 Is it ... Well, turn it on silent.

Jonny 15:55 That's on silent. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:56 But it vibrates?

Jonny 15:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:57 Is that what happens at night?

Jonny 15:59 Uh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:00 That's disgusting.

Jonny 16:01 It's only good things I've told you.

Chris Williamson 16:03 That's disgusting.

Jonny 16:04 I don't mind ... Who doesn't, like, mind being woken up by a really good thing?

Yusef 16:07 That is a story that ... I, I don't know whether we've mentioned this, where I came to pick Johnny up at 7:00 AM for a competition. We were going to Leeds.

Jonny 16:15 I think we have spoken of it, but-

Yusef 16:16 Oh, okay.

Jonny 16:17 Go on, go on. Go on.

Yusef 16:18 Went to, went to his family home, knocked on his door. This was a few years ago. Mum answered the door, and, uh, she w- I was like, "Have you seen Johnny?" She was like, "No, I've not, not seen him. I don't know where he is." And I just hear footsteps running down the stairs.

Jonny 16:29 Fuck.

Chris Williamson 16:29 (laughs)

Yusef 16:29 Johnny's like, "Oh," like bleary-eyed, like, "What time is it?" It's like, it's 7:25. He's like, "Oh, God." And he was like, "Right, you know what's happened? My Apple Watch, at 4:00 AM woke me up and just said, 'Beep beep, you've been sat down too long. Time to get up.'"

Jonny 16:43 (laughs)

Yusef 16:43 "So I'd, so I got up and, like ... And then my girlfriend was like, "What are you doing, Johnny?"

Chris Williamson 16:47 (laughs) Are you training?

Yusef 16:49 "It's 4:00 in the morning." I was like, "Ah."

Jonny 16:52 He says. (laughs)

Yusef 16:52 So he went-

Jonny 16:53 He said, "It's a normal (laughs)

Yusef 16:55 So he went back to sleep, and then it didn't wake him up when he actually needed it.

Chris Williamson 16:59 When he, when he actually needed it.

Jonny 17:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:00 This is when we try and optimize too hard. Like-

Jonny 17:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:03 So th- there was a good tweet that Jordan put out yesterday that, um, uh, George put out yesterday, saying about asymmetric risks. And one of the biggest asym-

Jonny 17:13 Is that who it was?

Yusef 17:14 Yeah.

Jonny 17:14 Right.

Yusef 17:15 Well, Naval Ravikant via George.

Jonny 17:17 Oh, got it. Okay.

Chris Williamson 17:18 But it wasn't Naval, was it? It was Naval Ravikant bot, which is owned by George. If you are on Twitter, check out Naval-

Jonny 17:24 (laughs)

Yusef 17:24 It's so meta, isn't it?

Jonny 17:25 Uh, it's Naval Bot, N-A-V-A-L B-O-T, and it's just, like, uh, aphorisms that are unbelievable on, on loop. Um, one of the biggest, I think, one of the biggest asymmetrical risks is single alarm clock. Like, it's dangerous, man. Like, having-

Yusef 17:44 Yeah, 'cause one day when it fails-

Chris Williamson 17:45 Yeah, that's the day that you really, really need it.

Yusef 17:47 ... it's catastrophic.

Chris Williamson 17:47 Yeah, so.

Jonny 17:48 By ... So it's asymmetric risks and asymmetric benefits?

Yusef 17:52 Opportunity.

Chris Williamson 17:53 Opportune-

Jonny 17:54 So in other words, the size of the gain is smaller than the risk.

Yusef 17:57 Yeah, so it's-

Jonny 17:57 The size of the risk is smaller than the cost.

Yusef 17:58 Entering a position with a small stop loss and a very, very large take profit.

Chris Williamson 18:02 So-

Jonny 18:02 Are the, are the opportunities?

Chris Williamson 18:03 Yeah.

Yusef 18:03 Yeah, so the-

Jonny 18:04 So what's the, what's the other one?

Yusef 18:05 Um, that has a massive-

Jonny 18:07 A small upside.

Yusef 18:08 Small upside, massive downside.

Jonny 18:09 So for, for, for me, what-

Yusef 18:09 So texting while driving is the small-

Chris Williamson 18:11 Yeah. Texting, texting while driving. Texting, another, uh-... person while you're in a relationship is another one.

Jonny 18:18 Right.

Chris Williamson 18:18 Like, you're gonna get a very limited upside benefit to that. Huge potential.

Yusef 18:20 Or doing naughty texts with another-

Chris Williamson 18:22 Yeah.

Yusef 18:22 ... person.

Chris Williamson 18:22 Yeah.

Yusef 18:23 Was it you that said, like, if you would, if you had to show the text that you were writing while driving in court-

Jonny 18:27 Ben.

Yusef 18:28 Oh, yeah.

Jonny 18:29 Yeah.

Yusef 18:30 And if, like, let's say you had a crash or you killed someone, you hit a pedestrian, and then in court, they're like, "Well, what text were you writing?" And you're like, "LOL," or, like, just some-

Chris Williamson 18:39 It's so fucking vapid shit.

Yusef 18:42 You'd be like.

Jonny 18:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:42 Yeah. It, it, it is.

Jonny 18:44 The trouble is, it, when you're next in the car, watch how many people coming the other way are looking at the road. So few people.

Chris Williamson 18:50 Yeah.

Jonny 18:51 And then you think, "If they veer off, what am I gonna do?"

Yusef 18:54 So with automated car ... uh, what's it called? Self-driving cars, apparently there's, like, a, it's like a hundred or a thousand-fold less risk to die by a self-driving car than it is-

Jonny 19:05 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:05 ... to die from it This is- ... than it is a human. This is- But people prefer to be, um, that, like, they're scared of self-driving cars because they would prefer to die by their own hand, even if it's 100 or 1,000 times more likely.

Chris Williamson 19:14 This is me and me and you both quote-tweeted the same thing, that we would-

Yusef 19:16 Ah.

Chris Williamson 19:16 ... prefer to die by our own volition than live at the behest of a machine.

Jonny 19:20 Hmm.

Yusef 19:20 Unbelievable.

Chris Williamson 19:21 You're like-

Jonny 19:21 So s- suppose it's when, it's when the machine goes wrong, it's the destroying-a-planet-to-make-paperclips scenario, isn't it? It's-

Chris Williamson 19:28 But, so the problem, the problem that people have with it is that for some reason, they're prepared with a huge amount of, uh, real risk that comes from humans, a h- huge amount of human risk, but this tiny ... and then they obsess about, "Well, what if it's a mother of three versus a, a pram with a baby?" And you're like, "When f- "

Yusef 19:46 Like, when is that ever gonna happen?

Chris Williamson 19:48 Well, d- even if, even if it does, like-

Jonny 19:49 But I'm, like, how do you make that decision?

Chris Williamson 19:50 Yeah. Okay, so it's a utilitarian outcome.

Yusef 19:52 Isn't that better to leave that decision in the hands of a human, who's just gonna be like, "Argh!"

Chris Williamson 19:56 Kill them both.

Jonny 19:57 Or crash into a sh- shop and kill 10 people.

Chris Williamson 19:59 Yeah.

Jonny 20:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:00 I'd let, just let Tesla just make a, like- A judgment call?

Jonny 20:03 ... value cost of life and just make the best decision.

Chris Williamson 20:05 Yeah. Outsource-

Jonny 20:06 That's all you can do anyways.

Chris Williamson 20:07 Outsource everything to Elon Musk.

Jonny 20:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:09 Um, I'll tell you what else I've been listening to recently, The End of the World with Josh Clark.

Jonny 20:14 That sounds cheery.

Chris Williamson 20:15 Link will be in the show notes below. It is the most, um, advanced and clever use of the podcast platform that I've listened to so far. So if you can imagine a 10-episode podcast series where he is talking about different existential threats, um, as asteroids, AI risks, physics experiments, uh, all sorts, everything, very, very comprehensive. And the entire show has been engineered by very, very clever, uh, sound engineers. And there's soundscapes going on in the background, so as he's talking about traveling through space, there's, like, whooshing space sounds and kind of low-level music and rumbling when he will talk about asteroids.

Yusef 20:56 It's gonna be great on three times speed.

Chris Williamson 21:01 (laughs)

Jonny 21:01 (laughs)

Yusef 21:01 Just white-knuckling the steering wheel.

Jonny 21:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:05 (laughs)

Jonny 21:05 See, here's, here's the thing-

Chris Williamson 21:05 That is such a unique problem to have.

Jonny 21:08 ... I, I don't listen to po- so I do listen to audio books in two times speed. I listen to podcasts as they are.

Chris Williamson 21:14 Really?

Jonny 21:14 I think I see a podcast as f-

Chris Williamson 21:16 Leisure.

Jonny 21:16 ... leisure. But an audio book is like, "I'm reading this for work to gain information."

Chris Williamson 21:21 Ah, okay. I-

Jonny 21:21 But you just see all audio as wasting your time.

Yusef 21:23 How do I consume it as rapidly as possible?

Jonny 21:25 Yeah.

Yusef 21:25 To be honest, three times pushes my limit a bit.

Jonny 21:27 (laughs)

Yusef 21:28 But using-

Chris Williamson 21:28 'Cause it's like (imitates fast forwarding) .

Jonny 21:29 (laughs)

Yusef 21:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:29 You can't even get ... so the only way that you can get, um, three times speed is by going onto specific kinds of apps. So if, even if you-

Jonny 21:36 So hacked scone apps.

Yusef 21:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:38 If you're listening now on, uh, Apple Podcasts, I implore you to try this out. If you press the multiplication thing, it will go one, 1.5, two, nought points five, so-

Jonny 21:49 Oh, really?

Chris Williamson 21:49 Yeah.

Yusef 21:49 ... I'm using a new podcast app called Castro, which is excellent, but it only has, like, one, 1.2, 1.5, up to two, and then the next speed up is three.

Chris Williamson 21:59 (laughs)

Yusef 22:00 And two is too slow for me, and three is a little bit too fast. But it's amazing.

Narrator 22:04 (sped up audio)

Chris Williamson 22:06 (laughs)

Yusef 22:12 But-

Chris Williamson 22:12 Would you like an egg? (laughs)

Yusef 22:14 (laughs)

Jonny 22:15 Or (speaks with a lisp) would you like an egg? Would you like an egg? And it metastasizes into bone cancer.

Chris Williamson 22:22 (laughs)

Yusef 22:22 How do you explain that?

Chris Williamson 22:23 (laughs) So it was just in Iceland, you were listening to some really kind of droll guy talk about all the different ways that shin cancer can become everything else.

Yusef 22:33 Cancer can just move.

Jonny 22:33 Yeah. So I, I was sat ... my bedroom was the living room, so I was on the sofa and Yosef was very unwell for the entire time.

Chris Williamson 22:42 (laughs)

Jonny 22:42 And I just couldn't ... I'd wake up to tea mornings. The first morning I woke up to Yosef standing, wearing a woolen hat-

Chris Williamson 22:49 (laughs)

Jonny 22:49 ... and some shorts cooking on a portable hub in the corner of a room.

Chris Williamson 22:53 That thing blew me away, by the way. That-

Jonny 22:56 The portable hub?

Chris Williamson 22:56 Yeah.

Jonny 22:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:57 It's like, it's like a, if you close a laptop and make it twice as thick.

Jonny 23:01 That's a hub.

Chris Williamson 23:01 And it's a, yeah, it's a hub.

Yusef 23:02 It's so Scandinavian, isn't it?

Jonny 23:03 How, how is it generating the heat?

Chris Williamson 23:05 Unbelievable.

Jonny 23:06 Like, but, yeah, so-

Yusef 23:06 They just value space efficiency above all else.

Jonny 23:08 ... it's a slow, sloth-proof, so Yosef's, like, crouched over this hub with a pan, turns around and says, "Would you like an egg?" Single egg, boiled egg.

Chris Williamson 23:16 (laughs)

Jonny 23:16 That was what he was offering me for my breakfast, (laughs) which I declined, I believe.

Chris Williamson 23:19 Really?

Yusef 23:19 'Cause I think we only had three left, so it was just gonna be an egg each.

Jonny 23:22 (laughs) An egg each.

Chris Williamson 23:23 Each, yeah.

Jonny 23:23 And then we bought some Lucky Charms, is that what they're called?

Chris Williamson 23:26 Yeah, we had some Lucky Charms.

Jonny 23:27 Which were the cheapest cereal in Iceland.

Yusef 23:28 They were 9,400 palms.

Jonny 23:30 As opposed to nine and a half grand, which was-

Chris Williamson 23:31 There was a dis- there was a discount, yeah. Uh-

Jonny 23:33 Nine and a half grand to get them at the supermarket, then nine and a half grand for handling them.

Chris Williamson 23:36 Shall we talk about Fyre Festival again? I've already talked about it with Alex Cortez-

Yusef 23:39 Ah.

Chris Williamson 23:39 ... but it's just so good. It ... did you watch this on-

Yusef 23:41 I've seen it now, yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:42 Have you?

Yusef 23:43 Yeah. It's-

Chris Williamson 23:43 Do you realize it's on-

Jonny 23:44 Did you watch it at normal speed?

Yusef 23:45 Normal speed. You w- on your and Ben's recommendation.

Jonny 23:48 Did you watch it with Amy?

Yusef 23:49 Yeah.

Jonny 23:49 Right.

Chris Williamson 23:49 (laughs)

Yusef 23:49 So I, I can only ... the, the only times I'm forced to watch things at normal speed are if there's other people in the room. I don't really care.

Jonny 23:54 You just gotta, when you-

Yusef 23:55 This is mad.

Jonny 23:55 ... when you say something that doesn't fit into this is what Yosef does, you've got to find the, the reason why.

Chris Williamson 24:01 There's a justification.

Jonny 24:02 Like, is he unwell?

Chris Williamson 24:03 Yeah.

Jonny 24:03 Or is it that he feels-

Chris Williamson 24:04 Is he unwell? (laughs)

Jonny 24:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:06 So, um, one of my favorite, to segue before we go on Fyre Festival, one of my favorite things is where you say you can have a five-pound discount on massages that you give people. So you're a trained masseuse.

Jonny 24:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:17 But you offer people a five-pound discount if they allow you to listen to whatever podcast or audio book you're listening to at the time. But obviously, if you flip that on its head, what you could look at is there is a five-pound surcharge if you don't want to listen to whatever you're listening to at the moment. (laughs)

Jonny 24:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:34 That's a good point. And five pounds is so arbitrary as well, isn't it? It's like, it's, it's enough that you'd probably sit and think, like, "Do I want that?" Because also someone will say yes, because I remember, uh, Gibo saying he, he was having a... He was like, "Yusuf's going to be a massive." He goes, "Something about funnel marketing." And it's- Metastasizing in his skin cancer. I didn't, I didn't really understand it, but I... It was okay, I suppose. If someone-

Yusef 24:58 Something about straddle options in the Russian equity market or something.

Chris Williamson 25:05 (laughs) It's actually, you should charge people for that.

Yusef 25:07 For things like my-

Chris Williamson 25:07 That's free content, the stuff you've got access to.

Yusef 25:09 I will curate excellent educational content for you, while-

Chris Williamson 25:12 But a lot of it's paid.

Yusef 25:14 As in-

Chris Williamson 25:14 Like, it's either part of a nine grand a year degree-

Yusef 25:16 Not if you're on-

Chris Williamson 25:16 ... or a paid program, or-

Yusef 25:17 That's, that's a good point, actually. Like, it is value adding.

Chris Williamson 25:19 Yeah.

Yusef 25:20 It, but it's just-

Chris Williamson 25:21 Very specific.

Yusef 25:22 ... whether they recognize the value.

Chris Williamson 25:22 Yeah. Not if you're on LSEND. Not if you're on LSEND, yeah. Um- Yeah. And then to, to f- bookend that conversation, when, uh, you finally got onto the life hack of getting your hair cut at home, haven't you?

Yusef 25:35 Yeah, I have. Thank you.

Chris Williamson 25:37 Um-

Yusef 25:37 Excellent recommendation.

Chris Williamson 25:38 But before, before the hairdresser went round to his, she texted me to say, like, "Hang on a second, I'm about to go round to this person's house that I've never met before. I probably should think about my own safety. Is he, is he a weirdo?" And I'm like... (laughs)

Yusef 25:55 (laughs) 'Cause I think you said, like, "No more than I am."

Chris Williamson 25:59 Yeah.

Yusef 25:59 But absolutely so much.

Chris Williamson 26:00 Like, if the, if the canary in the coal mine is me-

Yusef 26:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:03 ... like, there's probably... But, and then apparently... So I knew that this was gonna be... I could foresee the SCOBY problem occurring, which was that-

Yusef 26:10 Like, he's, he's not a touchy kind of, um-

Chris Williamson 26:12 No, but-

Yusef 26:12 ... tie you up weirdo.

Chris Williamson 26:13 Yeah.

Yusef 26:14 He's just, uh-

Chris Williamson 26:15 It's what you listen to-

Yusef 26:15 But it seems to make you feel uncomfortable, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:17 So what I had in my head, and I knew it was gonna happen and sure enough it did, was that Yusuf was gonna be sat down and he would be forced to make small talk with someone in his house. But he would know that at that point, all that you needed to do would be, like, press the play button, but-

Yusef 26:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:32 But the- there's too many, you know, like, that as your on-ramp. Like introduction, Yusuf 101. Like, he can't have Yusuf 101 as (gabbles)

Yusef 26:42 Well, that's it.

Chris Williamson 26:42 (gabbles)

Yusef 26:43 Oh, God. You know, this is gonna go on.

Chris Williamson 26:44 (gabbles)

Yusef 26:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:44 (laughs) And I messaged her the next day and I was like, "Did he, um, did he make... Did he play anything?" And then she was like, "No, no." I was like, "Fucking hell."

Yusef 26:51 No, I did. So, so I gave her a 10-minute grace period-

Chris Williamson 26:54 (laughs)

Yusef 26:54 ... of small talk and then I was like, "Right, I think we've reached the threshold of, like, I've established that I am a nor... That I can pretend to be a normal enough human for 10 minutes." "Hey, do you mind? I'm listening to the middle of a podcast, can I..." And I was like, "You know what? I'll be nice. Let's put the speed to a normal."

Chris Williamson 27:08 (laughs)

Yusef 27:08 I think I put it on, like, 1.2 and hoped she wouldn't notice.

Chris Williamson 27:13 (laughs)

Yusef 27:15 But it was, uh, it was, um, Stan Grof talking about, like, the, the psychoanalytic map of human consciousness and-

Chris Williamson 27:21 Oh, right, right. Oh, my God, yeah. I'm sure that she loved that.

Yusef 27:23 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:24 Like, she spends all day hearing to people... Hea- hearing people talk about Reveal Magazine. Mm-hmm.

Yusef 27:28 Fair. Well, to be fair, it's quite a... Yeah, it was like the cartography of archetypes of, um-

Chris Williamson 27:33 Jesus Christ.

Yusef 27:34 ... Jungian architecture. Yeah, it was very-

Chris Williamson 27:36 So Fyre Festival. Tell me what you think, 'cause I'm absolutely fucking amazed to find out what you, you thought about it.

Yusef 27:43 So for anyone that doesn't know, I suppose, Fyre was a really impressively... Um, it was a festival-

Chris Williamson 27:49 It was an app.

Yusef 27:50 Oh, okay. So it started, started off-

Chris Williamson 27:52 Yeah, I suppose.

Yusef 27:52 ... as an app, and then they decided to launch a festival off the back of it. Very good at hype. They hired a lot of, uh, supermodels and high, high definition, like, high production value stuff to go and film the promo for a festival out in the Bahamas, buying one of, uh, Pablo Escobar's old islands.

Chris Williamson 28:13 (laughs)

Yusef 28:13 And they were gonna host it there.

Chris Williamson 28:14 So they said, yeah.

Yusef 28:15 And so they, they made it look like an amazing experience. Got a lot of high profile people, like, a bit weird. Like, Blink-182 and Ja Rule, like, all, like, captains of 1996.

Chris Williamson 28:25 (laughs)

Yusef 28:25 Um, and, and so they then... But-

Chris Williamson 28:29 Do you know, it's amazing that you would have looked at that lineup and gone-

Yusef 28:33 "I've heard of them."

Chris Williamson 28:33 "And? What the fuck's going on?"

Yusef 28:35 "Sounds about right, that sounds okay. Think I'll book my ticket." Oh, it was £10,000 pound each ticket.

Chris Williamson 28:38 Sum 41, I've heard of those people.

Yusef 28:40 (laughs) Um, so the, the, the... Obviously, it all fell down when they actually went to implement it and realized that the island had no infrastructure, the organization was a complete mess, and just seeing the whole thing progressively fall apart. The way that the documentary is made is so impressively stressful as well.

Chris Williamson 28:58 Yeah.

Yusef 28:58 Did you find this? Where, like, you're sat there and you're like, "Oh."

Chris Williamson 29:02 Well, my, my empathy a- as a business person just had me... Like, I was white knuckling along with it.

Yusef 29:08 I was thinking it's right up your street because it's like-

Chris Williamson 29:11 Yeah.

Yusef 29:11 ... the full promo.

Chris Williamson 29:11 Well, I mean, for any of the club promoters that are listening, it is just... It's all of our worst nightmares rolled into one.

Yusef 29:17 At what point could you tell that it was gonna go wrong?

Chris Williamson 29:19 Game over.

Yusef 29:20 I realized that the whole premise-

Chris Williamson 29:21 Pretty soon.

Yusef 29:21 ... of the show was kind of-

Chris Williamson 29:22 Pretty s- pretty soon, I think. Like, as soon as they talk... 'Cause it's the stuff that you don't think about, the, the infrastructure of things like bio-waste disposal. Like, the problem wasn't selling the event.

Yusef 29:32 Really unsexy stuff.

Chris Williamson 29:33 Getting rid of poo. Where do you put the poo? You're on an island, where's the poo going? Like, hundred s- hundred thousand dollars worth of Evian water that the ops director-

Yusef 29:42 Healthy.

Chris Williamson 29:42 ... had to go and suck off the customs officer.

Yusef 29:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:45 And I turned up there fully prepared to suck his dick. And you're like- He got loads of positive press. He's a legend. Oh, yeah. Do you know what the other thing is as well? There's a- Could be the wake in... (laughs) Yeah. It's true. Um, but... So yeah, I mean-

Yusef 30:00 People will be like, "That's a bit weird."

Chris Williamson 30:01 Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh... Um, I thought it was, it was really, really... I've watched it twice now, that's how much I enjoyed it. I felt very sorry for him. I might watch it again. Billy McFarland? No, no, I felt very sorry for the, the, the dick-sucking man.

Yusef 30:13 The dick? It's, it's... That's really arrogant of him, 'cause basically the customs officer held, was it 100,000 liters?

Chris Williamson 30:18 $100,000 worth. I think it was like-

Yusef 30:21 143-

Chris Williamson 30:21 ... three articulated lorries worth.

Yusef 30:23 Okay, so 100...

Chris Williamson 30:23 Of water.

Yusef 30:24 $140,000 custom charge and the guy said that he was gonna go over because the customs officer was gay and try and seduce him. And he was-

Chris Williamson 30:32 No, no, no. The... Everyone told him that this was what he had to do.

Yusef 30:35 This is what he had to do.

Chris Williamson 30:36 Yeah.

Yusef 30:36 But-

Chris Williamson 30:36 So he was, like, commandeered as like, "You're the highest profile gay man that we've got."

Yusef 30:40 It's, it-

Chris Williamson 30:40 Like, "You'll put a dick in your mouth."

Yusef 30:41 It's still, it's so arrogant to think, like-... uh, I, like, for me to give someone a blow job, it's worth $140,000. Like, that's-

Jonny 30:50 I suppose it's just all you've got at that point, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 30:53 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 30:54 Like, it's either that or-

Chris Williamson 30:55 What would you have done?

Yusef 30:56 If, if it was the other way around, who would pay that much? I don't think anyone's ever paid $140,000 in the world.

Jonny 31:00 It's gonna have to be a good blow job.

Chris Williamson 31:01 They definitely will have done.

Jonny 31:02 They absolutely-

Yusef 31:03 $140,000?

Jonny 31:04 Yeah, why not?

Yusef 31:05 'Cause you'd just find someone that were willing to take 139, and then-

Jonny 31:08 (laughs)

Yusef 31:09 ... you do, you do a reverse-

Jonny 31:10 I don't think the person in the, in the moment of the transaction is being quoted $140,000 and singing, "Mm-mm."

Chris Williamson 31:14 How has he paid it? Stripe? (laughs)

Yusef 31:16 Oh, no, 2.9% charge. (laughs)

Jonny 31:18 The, the fee would be sickening.

Chris Williamson 31:19 (laughs)

Jonny 31:20 Honestly.

Chris Williamson 31:21 But if you absorb that, if you absorb that as the, as the vendor, you'd be like, "For a $140,000 blow job plus fee-"

Yusef 31:26 A- are you a registered business? You could claim that back on the, uh, transaction, and-

Chris Williamson 31:30 Yeah, you can.

Jonny 31:30 No, no, I don't think you could. What's the, what's the, what's the input of that? There is none.

Chris Williamson 31:35 (laughs)

Jonny 31:35 It's a nightmare.

Chris Williamson 31:36 It is.

Yusef 31:36 It's an absolute nightmare.

Chris Williamson 31:37 It's fucking perilous, isn't it?

Jonny 31:39 $140,000 blow job.

Chris Williamson 31:41 Um, but yeah, I mean, one of the, one of the main things, I said this to Alex on the, on the podcast was that (coughs) the big difference, and this shows how seduced we are by success, the only reason that everyone slates that, the guy that ran it and the festival itself is because it failed.

Yusef 31:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:58 And if the stars had aligned sufficiently correctly and a bunch of very lucky things, the water had got sorted, and the tents had got sorted, and it wasn't that weekend where all of the yachts were there, and the-

Yusef 32:09 And the rain, and-

Chris Williamson 32:09 ... the islands, yeah, and it hadn't rained, and this, that, and the other. A bunch of things, m- basically his preparation and skill level and virtue and integrity hadn't moved at all on the metre, but all of the luck was turned up to 11-

Jonny 32:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:20 ... and it all worked fine. We-

Yusef 32:21 So if it was still fraudulently gaining-

Chris Williamson 32:23 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yusef 32:24 ... venture capital and all that stuff, but things-

Chris Williamson 32:26 Had been successful, we'd be hailing him as the fucking-

Jonny 32:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:29 And it's purely because we are so seduced by success.

Yusef 32:33 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 32:34 Interesting.

Chris Williamson 32:34 We want to be attached to success so much that it is by any means possible.

Jonny 32:40 So I think it's, I think he's pretty smart bloke. Uh, uh-

Yusef 32:45 So six, six years in jail now, is it?

Jonny 32:46 Yeah.

Yusef 32:47 Or something?

Chris Williamson 32:47 Yeah. Not that smart.

Jonny 32:48 So, but, uh, obviously, yes, that, that part's not smart, but, like, I think the ... like, I, I, there are not very many people who could get something to that point.

Chris Williamson 32:58 Who pull that off.

Yusef 32:58 Did you trust him? Did you think he was a charismatic guy?

Jonny 33:01 No, I didn't... No, you don't trust him, I don't think. He doesn't-

Yusef 33:03 Yeah, I thought-

Jonny 33:03 He doesn't come across at all as trustworthy.

Yusef 33:05 He seemed, yeah, y- he's got something weird about, even his, like, he's got a strange gait when he walks.

Jonny 33:09 A bit smarmy.

Yusef 33:10 And, and is, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:11 He's obviously got some sociopathic kind of-

Jonny 33:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:14 ... like, detachment tendencies.

Yusef 33:16 'Cause his facial expressions looked as if they were engineered. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, as if he'd, like, thought, "How can I, like..."

Chris Williamson 33:21 He was meta- he was metacognizant for the entire time that he was-

Yusef 33:24 Right.

Chris Williamson 33:25 Do you know what I mean? Like, he was thinking like, "What would Billy McFarland say in this, in this moment?"

Yusef 33:29 Ah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:29 And apparently there's a Hulu version, which I'm yet to watch. There's a s- a same thing, but different documentary. And the Hulu version focuses a lot more on him.

Jonny 33:38 Right.

Chris Williamson 33:38 Um, which I'm looking forwards to watching. Apparently in that, there's a bit, some footage from when he's in court. There's this fucking crazy American system where you can just, like, take a camera in a court and, like, just wa- watch what's going on.

Yusef 33:50 Really? Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:50 Um, and yeah, apparently there's this bit where they say basically, "Did you say this?" He says no, and they say, "Here's video of you saying that you did say it." And you can see apparently the co- like, he's (laughs)

Yusef 34:04 (laughs)

Jonny 34:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:04 There's like a cognitive dissonance-

Yusef 34:05 Fine adjusting his, uh, facial expression.

Chris Williamson 34:06 ... of just, yeah, where he's like, "Hang on a second, like, I did, but I didn't, but I did, but I..." And you're like, "Hang on."

Jonny 34:12 Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 34:12 It's obvious that he's just got... He's a compulsive l- liar.

Jonny 34:16 Liar. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:16 Who is unable to reconcile a number of different things that happened.

Jonny 34:19 But he's, he's, if you, if you look at what he... I, I know he didn't del- he didn't deliver on the, on the product, but the, the, the-

Chris Williamson 34:25 (laughs)

Yusef 34:25 The prep was very good.

Jonny 34:26 Like, someone's made a fucking documentary about him.

Chris Williamson 34:28 Yeah.

Jonny 34:28 It's about... And so you think, like, everyone's very quick to criticize, and I completely understand that, but the fact is, he made a, he made a big wave out of an idea.

Chris Williamson 34:38 Mm-hmm. You need, you need to just put him in the marketing department.

Jonny 34:40 Which is-

Chris Williamson 34:40 And have him just very confined.

Jonny 34:42 Think of, think of stuff, yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:43 Do you know what I mean? Like, don't let him near the ops.

Jonny 34:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:45 Like, don't let him fucking order the coffee, but-

Jonny 34:47 Even stuff like, even stuff like getting everyone to post an orange tile.

Chris Williamson 34:49 Yeah.

Jonny 34:50 I thought that was so clever.

Yusef 34:51 Mm-hmm. It's a very good idea, just keep him, like, cordoned off in a safe-

Jonny 34:53 Yeah, give him a room.

Yusef 34:54 ... safe room.

Jonny 34:54 And a whiteboard, and he can f-

Chris Williamson 34:55 Nick, Nick.

Jonny 34:55 He can stay in there, mate.

Chris Williamson 34:56 Get a camera, he can just do what he wants.

Jonny 34:58 Yeah, yeah.

Yusef 34:58 So do you think he was delusional or deceptive?

Chris Williamson 35:02 Combination. 'Cause the, I don't think that you can have that degree... I, I don't think there's any amount of deception which would allow you to continue something when it's obvious it's not going to work.

Yusef 35:12 What, so when things were going wrong, and he was like, "Guys, w- we can't think about that. We've got to be positive."

Chris Williamson 35:15 We're a solutions-based business, not a problems-based business.

Yusef 35:17 Yeah, so is that just, like, blind faith in his own ability and thinking, "No, no, we've got to be positive about this." Like, just as Tony Robbins, "Let's up as hard as we can." Or is it, like, he knows that it's going wrong, but, like, just doesn't want... Is holding onto his position.

Jonny 35:31 I think it probably, it probably switched. So I imagine he didn't start off thinking, "Let's make this big scam."

Chris Williamson 35:36 Oh, yeah.

Jonny 35:37 I imagine he started off thinking this is gonna work. And look, you know when that guy, like, prices it all up and says, "Mate, this is, like, 30 million quid."

Yusef 35:43 Over budget.

Jonny 35:44 Or whatever.

Yusef 35:44 Yeah.

Jonny 35:44 And, and you've got six weeks to do it in. It's normally done in six months.

Chris Williamson 35:48 Yeah.

Jonny 35:48 At that point, it's like-

Chris Williamson 35:49 12 months, I think they said.

Jonny 35:50 Really?

Chris Williamson 35:50 Yeah.

Jonny 35:51 At that point, it's like, "Fucking hell, like, I either shit or get off the pot here. Like, I, I better just go balls in with this."

Chris Williamson 35:57 Yeah.

Jonny 35:57 And just hope it works. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:58 The thing, the thing that was most impressive for me was where they were saying, so we'd run out of money, and then Billy would jump on a jet and go back to New York, and then he'd come back with another $3 million in his pocket.

Yusef 36:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:11 And you'd be like, "Billy, what the fu-" He's, it's him, he's sucking, he's sucking, like, whatever, 30, 30 cocks. That's what he's doing.

Yusef 36:19 Do you think that's what he was doing?

Jonny 36:21 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:22 30, 30 times 140 minus handling fee minus-

Jonny 36:26 Fees. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:26 ... uh, say, tax.

Yusef 36:27 I see. So, right. (laughs)

Jonny 36:30 I don't think that's really what he was doing.

Yusef 36:31 No, no, but, um-

Jonny 36:33 But he was just lying about his finances, wasn't he, to get the, get the funding.

Chris Williamson 36:36 Do you see that he said he, he held-

Yusef 36:38 He didn't allow-

Chris Williamson 36:38 ... he held a number of, uh, Facebook auctions, and he had, like, $10,000.

Jonny 36:42 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:43 (laughs) Like $5,000.

Jonny 36:43 Oh, yeah, I remember that. Yeah.

Yusef 36:45 'Cause his previous business was, like, he sold it for a really small-

Chris Williamson 36:49 Yeah.

Yusef 36:49 ... small amount, but-

Jonny 36:50 See, it almost, it felt to me like a somewhat, someone with a gambling problem.

Chris Williamson 36:54 Yeah.

Yusef 36:54 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 36:55 Like, he, he loves the thrill of it.... and doesn't want the idea to die.

Chris Williamson 36:58 Some costs, some costs far too-

Jonny 36:59 So it's like, "Oh, well I'll just, I'll just tell that lie, and I'll just lie as well, and I'll just ... it'll all work out in the end somehow." Like, "The one turn of the wheel will eventually play in my favor."

Chris Williamson 37:08 He needs to, he needs to read Sam Harris. That's what he needs to do.

Jonny 37:10 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 37:10 What's that called, where you ... the, the Chinese, um, thing where they, they make you take incremental commitments that are slightly on, off your moral radar, but because they're so small, you keep taking larger and larger ones until you're just deep down the hole, and you, you make-

Chris Williamson 37:24 Sounds like Derren Brown. Derren Brown documentaries.

Jonny 37:25 It does sound like a Derren Brown-

Chris Williamson 37:28 Push.

Yusef 37:28 I think Derren Brown probably leverages that-

Chris Williamson 37:30 Particularly.

Yusef 37:30 ... process very much, yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:31 It's the, it's the reverse of compounding interest, isn't it? It's like a number of small-

Jonny 37:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:36 ... compounding bad decisions, and before you know it, you're, like, strung up by your nipples in Russia somewhere.

Jonny 37:42 (laughs)

Yusef 37:42 Which just seems fine, because it was only one extra decision away from-

Chris Williamson 37:45 Yeah, yeah.

Yusef 37:46 ... one nipple.

Chris Williamson 37:46 Each time.

Yusef 37:47 Now you have both nipples, you know?

Jonny 37:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:48 Um, have you seen the, the Ted Bundy Tapes yet, Johnny?

Jonny 37:50 No.

Chris Williamson 37:51 Have you seen it?

Jonny 37:52 Oh, my God.

Yusef 37:53 Yeah. Oh, it's highly recommended.

Jonny 37:53 You should've seen something that you would've seen.

Yusef 37:55 So I, I nearly ... I started watching it but I was like, "Uh, this is fucking serious."

Chris Williamson 37:57 I'm pretty fucking good.

Jonny 37:59 Is it good?

Chris Williamson 37:59 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I thought it was pretty good.

Jonny 38:01 Great. That's exciting

Yusef 38:02 Yeah. He's just, he's just a very charismatic, good-looking guy that-

Chris Williamson 38:06 Happens to be a systemically killer.

Jonny 38:08 (laughs) Systemically naughty.

Yusef 38:10 Although, there, there is still a divide between, I think, the person that he thinks he is and wants to try and be.

Chris Williamson 38:14 Right.

Yusef 38:14 Very much like the Billy thing, actually. It's quite, quite scary how it's, uh-

Chris Williamson 38:16 There's a lot of power. That's what, that's why my mind, yeah.

Yusef 38:18 There's another one that James Bailey recommended me to watch-

Chris Williamson 38:21 Yeah.

Yusef 38:22 ... which I've seen, called Abducted in Plain Sight.

Jonny 38:25 So I've watched that. That's fucking weird.

Yusef 38:27 Did you?

Jonny 38:27 Oh, Christ. You should watch that.

Yusef 38:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:30 Is Maddie McCann in it?

Jonny 38:31 No, no, no.

Yusef 38:31 Similar.

Chris Williamson 38:32 Oh, okay.

Jonny 38:32 Oh, my God. Like, why?

Yusef 38:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:35 Give us a synopsis.

Jonny 38:36 So that ... ugh.

Yusef 38:37 That's the ... out of the three shows that you've mentioned, that's easily the-

Jonny 38:40 And it gets more mental.

Chris Williamson 38:40 The, the best, or the most mental?

Jonny 38:41 I was ... I, I stood up to get a drink, right?

Chris Williamson 38:44 (laughs)

Jonny 38:44 I'm walking, walking to the fridge, and someone says something, and I turned round and went-

Yusef 38:49 Yeah.

Jonny 38:49 I was like, "I can't believe ..."

Yusef 38:51 Sh- should we spoil it for them, for the audience? I think we should.

Chris Williamson 38:53 No, don't spoil it. Don't spoil it.

Jonny 38:54 So what I mean is, there's this, there's this scene where a guy ... there's two men in a car.

Chris Williamson 39:01 Yeah.

Jonny 39:02 Who ... do you know the bit I'm about to say?

Yusef 39:04 Yeah, but I, I feel like the, the preamble-

Jonny 39:06 All right.

Yusef 39:06 ... is, is the most, like ... like, what led to that point is ... makes it seem even more ridiculous.

Jonny 39:12 Okay. I'm not, I'll not say.

Yusef 39:14 Sure. Oh, okay. Well, so ... basically-

Chris Williamson 39:17 Just go.

Yusef 39:17 ... it's a family, three daughters. They made friends with another family. The husband of the other family developed a, th- they'd developed a friendship, and he'd developed a particular proclivity for one of the daughters, Jan. He would ... the parents were aware of it, and they were like, "Oh, yeah. It kind of angered us, but we thought, you know, whatever." Carried on, and then he would end up staying over at their house multiple times, staying in Jan's bed. One day, the father was away, wasn't able to take Jan to horse riding class. He said, "Oh, I'll do it," drugged her, took her away, abducted her for several days. The parents didn't call the police or the FBI until five days later, 'cause they were like, "Ah, maybe they're just, I don't know, horse riding or something." And-

Jonny 39:57 That's the tip of the iceberg, that.

Yusef 39:58 It's the tip of the iceberg.

Chris Williamson 39:59 Tip of the iceberg. (laughs)

Yusef 40:00 And, and so then, um ... and, and prior to that as well, what had turned out was that the man had made sexual advances towards the wife of the other family, and so they had a little secret that, so she felt hesitant to actually go to the authorities about.

Chris Williamson 40:14 (laughs)

Yusef 40:14 And then later, the husband and this other guy had gone on a camping trip, and the husband was like, "And we were sat in the van, and he, he looked over at me and he had an erection, and he was like, 'Man, I just need some relief. W- would you help me out? Would you help brother out?' And I was like, ugh. So I, I performed an act of masturbation on, uh ..."

Jonny 40:38 (laughs) . And you're just like, "What the fuck is going on?"

Yusef 40:41 And you're like ... So, so he's managed to, like, have sex with both of the parents from the other thing-

Jonny 40:44 Yeah.

Yusef 40:44 ... and abduct the child.

Chris Williamson 40:46 (laughs)

Yusef 40:46 And then tried to marry it.

Jonny 40:47 Yes.

Yusef 40:47 Eventually, he manages to return the child back to the house.

Chris Williamson 40:50 With a receipt. Does he have proof of purchase?

Yusef 40:52 With, with, with pro- proof of purchase.

Jonny 40:53 Proof of purchase.

Yusef 40:53 They, they don't speak to him for a few weeks, and then he becomes mates with him again, stays back at her house over ... and abducts her a second time.

Jonny 41:00 (laughs)

Yusef 41:01 And, and when, when, when he's abducted her a second time, the parents then know that this happened, and they know that he's had previous convictions of being a child abductor, but he said to them, "Oh, don't worry, I'm recovered now, but part of my therapy is to stay in the bed with little girls." And the parents were like, "Oh, sounds legit. Okay." Um.

Chris Williamson 41:17 (laughs)

Jonny 41:17 And they h- they let him stay in the bed. There was a s- a bit where it's like, he was sleeping in her room five nights of every seven. In her bed, in her parent's house.

Chris Williamson 41:25 For, like, six months.

Jonny 41:26 And you're like ... But it's a very similar thing, where it's-

Chris Williamson 41:29 Are the parents completely deranged?

Yusef 41:31 That depends.

Jonny 41:31 Well, no-

Yusef 41:32 Again, this is one of these questions where ... are they delusional? Are they complicit in this? Are they-

Jonny 41:36 Again, it starts off with, "Oh, I just wanted to take her horse riding once." And then very quickly becomes this mess of just...

Yusef 41:45 It makes you so angry at the parents.

Jonny 41:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:48 It's just, like, complete neglect there.

Jonny 41:50 It's great that you're watching these things. It really is.

Yusef 41:52 I've just been steamrolled into watching things on that app these days.

Jonny 41:53 But it, it's, it's stuff that ... I f- I feel like regular TV is braindead, pointless. But stuff like this is really interesting. Especially-

Chris Williamson 42:03 It's surely ... it must be, it must be as palatable as you can make television. (laughs)

Jonny 42:07 (laughs)

Yusef 42:07 Yeah. It is. It's, it's just such a, like-

Jonny 42:09 It's, it's quite a complex plot. There's quite a lot of information.

Yusef 42:12 Big mixture of emotions, yeah.

Jonny 42:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:14 'Cause the thing is as well, like, no one ever has this conversation about Coronation Street.

Jonny 42:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:18 Like, "Eee, did you see-"

Jonny 42:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:21 "The, the, the complexities of the metacognition of Roy Cropper."

Jonny 42:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:25 And you're like, "No. No."

Jonny 42:28 'Cause it's all just cant-

Chris Williamson 42:29 Cantalos.

Jonny 42:30 So, so funnily enough, there would be no Coronation Street plot that even came close to the r- the ridiculousness of this.

Chris Williamson 42:36 And, and that's real.

Jonny 42:37 Yeah. And this actually happened.

Chris Williamson 42:39 That is true.

Jonny 42:40 You couldn't make this stuff up.

Chris Williamson 42:41 You couldn't. Uh, what else-

Jonny 42:42 Who do you ... what's he making a murderer? Liam Neeson.

Yusef 42:44 Uh-

Chris Williamson 42:44 Liam Neeson?

Yusef 42:45 I saw one thing of it, and then I was like, "I see the end."

Jonny 42:47 So I think if you've, if you've stuck with that-

Yusef 42:49 Persevered.

Jonny 42:50 ... it's a very similar thing, where it gets to the end, and you're like, "I can't believe this has happened."

Chris Williamson 42:54 Uh, yeah. Have you watched the second season?

Jonny 42:55 No.

Chris Williamson 42:56 Second season's not as good, but just ... like, the first season spanned 20 years, right?... pretty much of timeline.

Jonny 43:02 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:03 The second one spans since then, until now.

Jonny 43:05 All right.

Chris Williamson 43:05 So it's like they're, they're gonna have to stretch this.

Jonny 43:07 Not much (overlapped) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:07 But they've got... There's a, the lady lawyer who is representing him, right-

Jonny 43:13 Oh, yeah. She's do- she does the pro bono work, doesn't she?

Chris Williamson 43:15 ... is a motherfucking an absolute, like, proper...

Jonny 43:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:18 Just w- wheel in the big minigun and just-

Jonny 43:20 (laughs) Point it at- yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:22 Oh, God, yeah. (imitates gun firing)

Yusef 43:22 And wh- when the noise is so uniform, it sounds more like a single hum.

Jonny 43:25 Just (imitates machine humming) .

Chris Williamson 43:25 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jonny 43:26 That's-

Yusef 43:26 The, um... There's another one called The Staircase. You seen that?

Chris Williamson 43:30 No.

Yusef 43:31 It's about a guy who gets... A guy's in the house with his wife, and his wife dies by falling down the stairs, and the police arrive but there's like blood all down the stairs, like smeared everywhere and he's like, "She just fell down the stairs."

Chris Williamson 43:46 Is it in the UK?

Yusef 43:46 No, it's in the US, and he's a famous author.

Chris Williamson 43:49 Fiction?

Yusef 43:50 No, c- it's, it's proper-

Jonny 43:52 Shit.

Yusef 43:52 ... like police tapes stuff, and people are like, "And we came in the house and she's in a right mess," like, "She had blood everywhere," like all this, like all up the wall and everything, and he's like, "Yeah, yeah, she just must have fallen down the stairs." (laughs) And it's... That's great as well.

Chris Williamson 44:04 There'll be this camera footage that vindicates her where she just absolutely stacks him.

Jonny 44:08 (laughs)

Yusef 44:09 (laughs)

Jonny 44:09 Like just, he's like, "See? I told you."

Yusef 44:10 "See? I told you."

Jonny 44:11 "She's a bloody klutz."

Yusef 44:12 Reminds me of this video, it, it went, went viral a few years ago of this guy who breaks up with his wife. Do you know about this? Where he, he creates like a trail, like a Valentine's Trail type-

Chris Williamson 44:21 Oh, shit. Yes. Have you seen it? He's-

Yusef 44:23 No.

Jonny 44:23 Oh.

Chris Williamson 44:24 It's the, it's really savage. I'll try and s- find it and link it in the show notes below. Yeah, it's like a, a, a incremental set of videos. This guy finds out his wife's been cheating, then leads her on this like Valentine's Day, uh-

Yusef 44:38 Sc-

Chris Williamson 44:38 ... scavenger hunt thing through the house to the bed, and the bed's covered in roses, and it's, uh, uh, uh the end of it.

Yusef 44:45 So there, there's like a card and it's shaped like a heart, and she has to go round, find the different things, and there's a clue written on each thing. She eats the chocolate and she gets up to the bed and it's like, um, "We will, uh, w- this is the final stage of, of our little trail. Um, we will then spend the next, the next time at Northern Lights in the hail. Um, I finally have one more question for you when I get one on, down on one knee and ask you, 'Who the fuck is Thomas Rue?'"

Chris Williamson 45:13 (laughs)

Jonny 45:15 (laughs)

Yusef 45:16 And she looks up and, and he's just like, "See you later," and he, and he locks the door, puts the key through the door, and he's like, "That's just proof so that the police know that I haven't got a key anymore," and he drives off into the night singing into her dildo.

Chris Williamson 45:29 (laughs)

Jonny 45:30 Oh, my God. (laughs)

Yusef 45:32 Just films himself. And like the whole time, there's a lot of like excitement in his voice, but you can hear the tone of sadness underneath-

Chris Williamson 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 45:38 ... where he's just like (sighs) .

Chris Williamson 45:40 That's the way to deal with it though. And like it- he's British as well, isn't he?

Yusef 45:43 Yeah. (overlapped) He has like no problems at all.

Chris Williamson 45:43 Like the guy is like from... Yeah, he's like just Yorkshire or, or Leeds or something like that and the guy-

Jonny 45:48 Would be Leeds, wouldn't it?

Chris Williamson 45:49 So it's very realistic d- and it's all filmed in like 9:16 vertical.

Yusef 45:53 (laughs)

Jonny 45:54 Oh, right. See-

Chris Williamson 45:54 Like on like a front-facing camera from like a-

Yusef 45:56 "All right, darling. Read, read clue number four-"

Chris Williamson 45:58 Yeah.

Yusef 45:58 ... "and then, okay, over to the next one." And you've got, and there's like, he's put like sparkles and glitter on the card.

Jonny 46:02 You feel like he's had like a psychotic event when he's found out about it and he's like masterminded this real situation.

Chris Williamson 46:08 Just accessed another level of cognition because he's been so hurt by it, yeah.

Yusef 46:11 And then driving off with her dildo, like, that's the final level of thought of like-

Chris Williamson 46:14 Yeah.

Yusef 46:15 ... "Oh, sure. She'll be back in an hour or something."

Jonny 46:16 What about, you know, that's actualization, isn't it?

Yusef 46:17 Actualization?

Chris Williamson 46:18 No, self-actualization, like the dildo.

Yusef 46:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:20 You know what I mean? Like Maslow's hierarchy of needs and then at the very, very top, just on the top is-

Jonny 46:25 Is the dildo. The tip of the dildo.

Chris Williamson 46:25 Tip of the dildo. Uh, Liam Neeson. We were gonna talk about Liam Neeson.

Yusef 46:28 Yeah.

Jonny 46:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:28 This is a fucking minefield for us two.

Yusef 46:31 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 46:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:31 So-

Yusef 46:31 So can we get some background on, on Liam Neeson?

Chris Williamson 46:33 So, um, for the people who don't know, Liam Neeson has-

Jonny 46:37 Has a very particular set of skills.

Chris Williamson 46:39 Yes, he does. Well r- he does and that's the issue. Um, Liam Neeson... (clicks tongue)

Jonny 46:45 Oh.

Chris Williamson 46:45 That's the first sound video guy Dean has ever made-

Yusef 46:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:47 ... but he's not in the room.

Jonny 46:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:48 Um, so Liam Neeson, uh, is promoting a new film, which I think is actually a dark comedy. I don't think it's actually an action film. It's a dark comedy about revenge, and during an interview, he is asked, "How do you understand the emotions that are going through this?" And in his very sort of dark, slow, uh-

Yusef 47:10 Gravelly kind of way.

Chris Williamson 47:11 ... I-Irish voice, he says, "Well, uh, I, I have a personal experience with this. A close friend of mine was raped, and I asked her did she know the person and she said no. And I said, 'Well, what ethnicity was she?' And she said it was a Black man. So for the next few nights, I went out with a cosh," which is like a small baton.

Yusef 47:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:36 "Walking the streets of Ireland in Black neighborhoods looking for a Black man to start on me so that I could kill him. And after a little bit of time, I sort of caught myself and a lot the emotions had drained a little and I was able to be shocked at my own degree of behavior. Nothing had occurred, but that's how I'm able to embody or understand this particular degree of revenge."

Yusef 48:04 He al- he talks about the shame that he felt on himself and said-

Jonny 48:07 Oh.

Yusef 48:07 ... "I realize that even th- this was me feeling this in the context of living in Northern Ireland and, um, seeing all of the, the atrocities that are, that are done." And yet still having fallen prey to that same thought loop and then realizing that, "Actually, I'm just as bad as them." And, and then, yeah, so I guess he said he had that thought 40 years ago, was it?

Chris Williamson 48:28 Yeah.

Jonny 48:29 (laughs)

Yusef 48:29 And so people were slating him now-

Chris Williamson 48:31 They called him a racist.

Yusef 48:32 ... for having a thought 40 years ago that he's recognized and corrected.

Chris Williamson 48:37 Well, he, he acted on it. He did act on it.

Yusef 48:37 He did act on it, yeah.

Jonny 48:38 Well, yeah. I suppose so.

Yusef 48:39 I suppose to no consequence, similar to as you said about the fire thing where like nothing was-

Chris Williamson 48:44 Nothing happened. Yeah.

Yusef 48:45 Nothing happened. There was no-

Chris Williamson 48:45 I mean, so the, the thing that's... So do you see John Ba- John Barnes, the footballer-

Yusef 48:51 Oh, has he stuck up for him?

Chris Williamson 48:51 ... has come out saying he's a hero.

Yusef 48:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:54 And you're like... I mean-

Jonny 48:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:55 ... fair enough. John Barnes. Not the first person I'd think of to call on.

Yusef 48:58 (laughs)

Jonny 48:58 No, no. Very, very peculiar, that is.

Chris Williamson 49:00 Yeah. You know, like-

Jonny 49:01 Where's that connection?

Chris Williamson 49:02 Do you know if Liam needed to call on someone of like a black heritage-

Jonny 49:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:07 ... you wouldn't be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna ring John Barnes."

Jonny 49:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:10 ... like, you, you, you've (laughs) thought like Denzel-

Jonny 49:12 You could call him that.

Chris Williamson 49:12 You know Denzel. I bet you know Denzel.

Jonny 49:13 Oh, yeah, he would ring Denzel. Very similar guys, aren't they?

Chris Williamson 49:16 Yeah. That De- like Equalizer type.

Jonny 49:18 Denzel will sort them out, wouldn't he?

Yusef 49:19 Ainsley Harriott.

Jonny 49:20 What? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:21 (laughs)

Yusef 49:21 Like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:21 What, what gravitas does Ainsley Harriott bring to the conversation-

Yusef 49:24 Oh, he's incredible. He's a lunatic. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:24 ... other than being Black?

Yusef 49:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:27 He's a... He is a lunatic, yeah.

Yusef 49:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:28 Is Ainsley Har- ... And, and it's not Ainsley Harriott that does the adverts for the Travelodge, is it?

Jonny 49:33 "Get out and scrap." <inaudible .

Yusef 49:33 "Give it a good old rub."

Jonny 49:34 "Get out and scrap."

Yusef 49:35 Scrap. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:35 No, that, that ... (laughs)

Yusef 49:36 Chris. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:37 That's Lenny Henry, isn't it?

Yusef 49:40 Yeah. (laughs) All right, that's a smidge racist.

Chris Williamson 49:42 Well, no. They're, they're two similar aged British, Black, like, per- TV personalities.

Yusef 49:50 Okay. (laughs)

Jonny 49:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:54 (laughs)

Yusef 49:54 I think ... No, I, I think it's actually because, um, Lenny Henry has a routine where he was approached by a certain media company saying, "Can, can you do this gig for us?" And it slowly transpired that-

Chris Williamson 50:04 (laughs)

Yusef 50:04 ... they, they thought he was Ainsley Harriott.

Jonny 50:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:06 Is that true?

Yusef 50:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I, I think it's one of the routines that one, one of them has, anyway.

Chris Williamson 50:10 Okay.

Yusef 50:11 So.

Jonny 50:12 Um, have you seen all of the Ainsley Harriott videos where he's, people have, like, really taken it seriously?

Yusef 50:16 They've gone full Video Guy Deen on it and edited him down to look like a proper creep.

Chris Williamson 50:20 Does he get ... He's quite scary.

Yusef 50:21 They put, like, horror music-

Jonny 50:23 Have you seen them?

Chris Williamson 50:23 No.

Yusef 50:23 ... over the top and they, like-

Jonny 50:24 Oh, God. It's like Ainsley Harriott on the top of a ... On the top of a cliff going up.

Yusef 50:27 (laughs) Why is he doing that?

Jonny 50:29 And then he's, and then he's, like, whisking this thing for ages and getting-

Yusef 50:32 Slowed down and, like-

Jonny 50:33 ... and getting, getting ... And then he's rubbing meat and just go, "Give it a good old rub. Good old rub." And there's a whole, like, just very harrowing series on-

Yusef 50:42 Movement.

Jonny 50:42 ... YouTube of this stuff.

Chris Williamson 50:43 Jesus. It'll be on Reddit or 4Chan or whatever.

Jonny 50:45 It will, yeah. Everything's on 4Chan.

Chris Williamson 50:45 Yeah, something like that, but honestly-

Yusef 50:46 I love how the internet does that. It just rolls with something.

Jonny 50:49 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:49 Just purely ... And he'll, he'll have no idea why.

Yusef 50:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:52 Yeah. So, yeah, Liam Neeson and then John Barnes, and there's, there's been a, a ... He's been the subject of a, an awful lot of derision for it, I suppose.

Jonny 51:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:02 Which is mad because you are right. Like, it was 40 years ago. It was something ... (sighs) The, the main question is can someone be held accountable for thoughts that they have? Because you are right. That's essentially all that happened.

Yusef 51:18 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 51:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:19 And the argument is, well, if it had been a Irish man or if it had been a Swiss person or a German or a-

Jonny 51:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:27 ... Asian or whatever it is, the, the racism wasn't racism. It wasn't racism against people of Black heritage. It was tribalism against anyone from the tribe of people who had attacked his friend.

Yusef 51:38 And he, he clarified this later as well, didn't he?He said, "I was just looking for a symbol of my anger that I could, uh, have on." Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:42 Mm-hmm. It was an avatar, right? He was looking for someone to outlet that aggression onto. And Sam Harris and Joe, uh, Joe Rogan said, like, hit the nail on the head. And they were like, "If you want people in the world to be able to learn from others' mistakes," like that situation, you're not going to get much more perfect than this is a learning opportunity for everybody to understand someone who has everything to lose talking about a situation like this.

Yusef 52:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:08 So Liam Neeson, with all of his qualities and virtues that everyone admires him for, being this amazing actor and looking so cool and, you know, like, he's, he's everyone's perfect uncle, isn't he, really?

Yusef 52:18 (laughs)

Jonny 52:18 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:18 And you're like ... And this guy has had the bravery to come out, and even he, as talented and famous as he is, is still falls prey to these kind of-

Jonny 52:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:30 ... juvenile, like, primal-

Jonny 52:32 So I suppose it's should he, should he not have thought it, or should he not have said that he thought it? 'Cause those are the only two things that have happened and people are criticizing him, so I'm sure most people have had a dark thought at some point in their life.

Yusef 52:44 And so for, the lesson is here that you're not allow- that if you have a dark thought like that, you never tell anyone about it.

Chris Williamson 52:48 You can't, never talk about it, yeah.

Yusef 52:49 As if, as if that's the solution to something.

Chris Williamson 52:50 I know. But he got the, he got the cosh out and he walked out with it.

Yusef 52:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:53 So it's more than a dark thought, isn't it? That's what everyone's going to say.

Jonny 52:56 Okay. Okay. So I suppose it's v- that's an action of someone in a very emotional, very ... he's very upset, very angry-

Chris Williamson 53:07 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 53:07 ... taking a step towards acting on something-

Chris Williamson 53:09 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 53:09 ... but caught himself before he did it.

Chris Williamson 53:11 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 53:12 But it's still better than acting on it.

Chris Williamson 53:14 Well, definitely, yeah.

Jonny 53:15 So there ... It is a difficult one, though. I, I see that as-

Yusef 53:17 We, you know, the, there are people, especially the, the, the thought police kind of people that try and jump on-

Jonny 53:22 Mm.

Yusef 53:22 ... things like this, they are under this illusion or lie that they don't have prejudices, as if, as if they're somehow these, like-

Jonny 53:32 I know.

Yusef 53:32 ... beacons of ... It, it's like everyone has prejudices that the data shows that ... Like, so fat people is a particular example, that the data shows that people who look at photos of fat people on average will rate them as less intelligent and, um, less charismatic or less likable, and there's certain qualities that ... Or lazy, that they say as well.

Jonny 53:52 Yeah, lazy, smelly, all those sorts of thing. Like, they just associate it with lack of discipline, I think, don't they? And what that feeds into.

Yusef 53:57 And so the, you know, there, there's, there would be similar ones with, with all kinds of minorities or, or groups of people, but to, to-

Chris Williamson 54:05 With any characteristic.

Yusef 54:06 Yeah, any characteristic. Any sort of thing can-

Chris Williamson 54:07 You ... Someone who's got curly hair, someone who's tall, someone who's short.

Jonny 54:10 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 54:10 And actually, you have to be able to discriminate to be able to navigate your way in the world, so it's not as if, um, if you just eliminate all of that. People will be like, "Oh, I'm blind to color," or, "I'm blind to whatever." It's like that's not ... That isn't, it's impossible.

Chris Williamson 54:21 You're not a very effective, effective actor there, are you?

Yusef 54:25 Yeah. It's ... Well, it's, it's just not possible. Like, you, you know, this is, uh ...

Jonny 54:29 It's a- it's the same about people who ... 'cause I remember the reason I watched the Fyre documentary was my, like, Instagram, social media, like, lights up with everyone's got an opinion on why he was shit. But, like, you don't know ... You ... It's easy to just look at him, look at a guy who's, like, tried to make something fantastic and it's gone down to shit, and he, he really made a mess of it in lots of ways.

Chris Williamson 54:51 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 54:51 But, like, at one point, it started off as a great idea and a brilliantly executed idea that might have been fantastic.

Chris Williamson 54:57 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 54:57 And no one knows how they would have reacted in his situation when they were faced with this, like, "Fucking hell." Like, "I've taken this too far."

Chris Williamson 55:04 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 55:04 It's very easy to sit from the armchair and be like, "Oh-"

Jonny 55:06 Yeah. Well, actually, most, most people couldn't even get anything to that point.

Chris Williamson 55:09 I, another scene, another scene from the Fyre Festival documentary has come in my head, which is Ja Rule sat on that Google Hangout with everyone. (laughs)

Yusef 55:17 (laughs)

Jonny 55:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 55:17 Everyone in the room. And he's going like, "F- fucking hell, guys. Like, you know, we, we don't need to worry, yeah? Like, like, nobody died." And you're like-... okay. Like-

Jonny 55:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:29 ... yes, you're right, nobody died. And what's the example that he uses?

Yusef 55:32 I remember watching that and thinking like, the, it could have been quite likely people could have died or that.

Jonny 55:36 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:36 He uses an example of like some company that came back from the-

Yusef 55:39 Oh, yeah.

Jonny 55:40 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:40 ... from the brink, and was like, like, look, they, they can-

Yusef 55:44 Was, was Cook? Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 55:45 No. That was one of the examples that was used. That was used by the other guy, wasn't it? But it's like, you know, like, oh, S- Samsung. It's like, oh, Samsung-

Jonny 55:51 Oh, their phones are burning.

Chris Williamson 55:52 ... you know, they're blowing up phones in people's pockets. Like, you know, "W- we're not killing anyone." You're like, right, yeah, maybe. You're not fucking Samsung either, are you?

Jonny 55:59 Yeah. They had quite a lot of reputation before-

Chris Williamson 56:01 Yeah.

Jonny 56:01 ... their phones started blowing up.

Chris Williamson 56:02 Well, they didn't open up with a brand new phone that blew people's legs off.

Yusef 56:07 (laughs)

Jonny 56:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:08 Have you seen as well, you, you will have done 'cause you get on flights all the time to weddings, don't you? Um-

Jonny 56:11 Constantly.

Chris Williamson 56:12 Um, have you seen now that if you drop your phone in between the seats of a plane, you're not supposed to move your seat or try and get the phone yourself? You need to, bing, and wait for the-

Yusef 56:23 The man with the forceps to come.

Chris Williamson 56:24 ... attendant to come.

Jonny 56:24 Why?

Chris Williamson 56:25 Because their concern is if you have like a Samsung Galaxy Note7 or whatever the fuck it is-

Jonny 56:29 A mistake on the phone.

Chris Williamson 56:30 ... and you move, you move your seat back, crack it-

Jonny 56:33 All right and it won't work.

Chris Williamson 56:34 ... and the lithium battery goes, th- everyone's up in fucking flames.

Jonny 56:36 This is why you shouldn't be allowed on a plane unless you've got an iPhone.

Chris Williamson 56:40 (laughs)

Jonny 56:40 And everything would be much simpler, because the people who've made bad decisions would be confined to the, where they live.

Chris Williamson 56:46 That is true.

Jonny 56:47 We're gonna get a lot of hate for that.

Chris Williamson 56:48 (laughs)

Yusef 56:48 (laughs)

Jonny 56:48 Rory, Rory Sutherland says the same. He's like-

Chris Williamson 56:51 (laughs)

Jonny 56:51 ... "You know, af- af- after a while, people don't care about clock speed or-"

Yusef 56:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:55 Yeah.

Jonny 56:55 ... "megapixels for the, for the front-facing camera. After a while, they just want something that looks nice."

Chris Williamson 57:00 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 57:00 And you're like, "Well, that's it. That's exactly why-"

Yusef 57:02 So the fact that you have an iPhone and you have a MacBook is, is that is the explanation of why it's a better decision.

Chris Williamson 57:11 You are canary in the coal mine for-

Jonny 57:12 But you, you, you shop on features. You don't care about the fact, like AirPods-

Yusef 57:16 I do have this, though. This is like, okay, f- quite an old iPhone at this point.

Jonny 57:19 But if you were like, the, the Google Pixel or like whatever-

Yusef 57:23 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 57:23 ... the latest Samsung is, probably on a features per, per pound basis is much better.

Yusef 57:28 That, that's not my criteria though. So-

Chris Williamson 57:30 Yours is integration with existing-

Yusef 57:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:31 ... like platforms, right?

Yusef 57:32 It's, it's convenience, integration, and speed of, of access for stuff.

Chris Williamson 57:35 Right.

Yusef 57:35 Which is why Alfred is the closest thing to my heart that anything ever could be.

Chris Williamson 57:39 Where's your hat?

Yusef 57:40 Oh, I've, I've got it for the, the webinar. Um-

Chris Williamson 57:43 Webby.

Yusef 57:43 George got me a lovely Christmas present, which is a, a cap that says, "Make Alfred great again."

Chris Williamson 57:48 (laughs) It's so fucking good.

Yusef 57:50 They don't even have an affiliate scheme. Like, Alfred, what are you doing?

Chris Williamson 57:52 I know.

Jonny 57:52 What are they doing?

Chris Williamson 57:53 Clown.

Yusef 57:53 If you don't know, get in touch with them.

Chris Williamson 57:54 If you don't know if-

Yusef 57:54 Yeah. They just love it.

Jonny 57:55 Donny Plack.

Chris Williamson 57:56 You do know that if, if 95% to 98% of people who are listening won't know what Alfred is, and they're thinking-

Jonny 58:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:01 ... "This fucking Alfred fella's good, isn't he?"

Jonny 58:03 Yeah, he's good.

Chris Williamson 58:04 They've got a hat made about him.

Jonny 58:04 Sounds like a nice, nice lad.

Chris Williamson 58:06 Yeah. He's a, he's a bloody good fella. I tell you what, if Liam Neeson had had Alfred...

Yusef 58:10 Oh, he wouldn't have had these problems.

Chris Williamson 58:11 He wouldn't have done at all.

Yusef 58:12 (laughs)

Jonny 58:13 So why do you ha- why did you buy a MacBook rather than a PC? 'Cause y- you didn't buy it 'cause-

Yusef 58:19 Okay.

Jonny 58:19 ... you thought Al- Alfred exists.

Yusef 58:20 Yeah, I, I didn't. But I think, use a b- anyone, use a PC for three minutes and it'll answer that question for you.

Jonny 58:29 'Cause so many people-

Yusef 58:29 Like-

Jonny 58:30 ... 'cause at, where I used to work, everyone has PCs. And it-

Yusef 58:33 So this is part of it as well.

Chris Williamson 58:33 Is that mandatory?

Jonny 58:34 Yeah, it's well, it's just what their systems run on.

Yusef 58:36 So, so we- we've both worked in companies where you're forced to use a Windows computer.

Jonny 58:39 Use a PC. But a-

Yusef 58:39 And the whole time you're just dying inside.

Jonny 58:40 I feel like when you speak to someone who uses a PC, they think Mac's like, "Oh, I can't use it. There's no My Computer. There's no, you know, no control panel. What do I do?"

Yusef 58:48 Tha- that, that onboarding process to learn to use a Mac is about 30 minutes, isn't it?

Jonny 58:52 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 58:52 Like, I think that's such a weak excuse to say like, oh...

Chris Williamson 58:56 It is like using... Th- the only comparison that I can make between having a MacBook and having anything else is... Actually, no, I, I've never used Linux or, or like those other-

Jonny 59:06 No, I-

Yusef 59:06 I've used Linux but it's awful.

Jonny 59:07 I see that as like, like stabilizers off, like really good if you can make it work.

Chris Williamson 59:13 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 59:13 Or you just-

Yusef 59:14 It's not-

Jonny 59:14 ... it's like A, B, C, 1, 2, 3.

Yusef 59:15 So it, it used... I think about f- 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, y- if you had a bit of developing knowledge, you could really use Linux to your advantage and-

Chris Williamson 59:25 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 59:26 Yeah.

Yusef 59:26 ... it was at the forefront. Now Mac has even overtaken that and there are a lot of developers moving over to using Mac as a, as a thing.

Chris Williamson 59:32 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 59:32 Um, and the problem with PC is that because it's incumbent, because l- large banks and lo-

Jonny 59:38 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 59:38 ... you know, lots of, there's lots of corporate use of Microsoft, even though it's terrible and even though there's so much problems with it because the cost of-

Chris Williamson 59:47 Switch over.

Yusef 59:48 ... switching everything over is so large.

Chris Williamson 59:49 I don't know.

Yusef 59:50 They just don't-

Chris Williamson 59:50 I've never ever walked into Santander or like Lloyds and looked behind and gone-

Jonny 59:57 Everyone's got new iMac Pros.

Chris Williamson 59:58 Bloody iMac. Yeah.

Yusef 59:59 Yeah.

Jonny 59:59 Which is not-

Chris Williamson 59:59 No, it's not, it's not happening.

Jonny 1:00:00 Some of that will be cost.

Chris Williamson 1:00:01 I suppose so.

Jonny 1:00:02 Because of the processing power.

Yusef 1:00:03 But it's, it's so ironic because like if, if they add up all... I mean, how ... let's say, if you were to add up all the time that you spent waiting for a computer at, at your old job-

Chris Williamson 1:00:11 (laughs)

Yusef 1:00:12 ... um, like per day-

Jonny 1:00:13 Well, well even, not even that. The amount of times they had to repair my computer.

Yusef 1:00:16 Okay. So, so the number of work hours that, that-

Chris Williamson 1:00:18 Yeah.

Yusef 1:00:18 ... like total labor that's lost, multiplied by all the employees of the company, it's gotta go into the-

Jonny 1:00:22 But I've owned a MacBook Pro and it's-

Chris Williamson 1:00:24 Yeah.

Jonny 1:00:24 ... ironically, easily.

Yusef 1:00:25 Who bought everyone a MacBook Pro?

Jonny 1:00:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:27 It's just-

Yusef 1:00:27 After a day-

Chris Williamson 1:00:27 ... it's like using a different machine. It's a different category of everything.

Jonny 1:00:32 Mm-hmm. 'Cause have you ev- have you ever played in a phone shop with a different phone that isn't an iPhone?

Chris Williamson 1:00:39 Mm, not for a long time.

Jonny 1:00:40 I just feel like, I know obviously I'm biased but I feel like-

Chris Williamson 1:00:44 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 1:00:44 ... using it is more cumbersome in every way.

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 1:00:48 I, I would honestly love, if, if anyone's watching this on YouTube and you have a, a sincere objection to or some reason that we're overlooking as to why a PC is superior-

Chris Williamson 1:00:58 Like, why should we use a Google Pixel?

Yusef 1:00:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:59 Why should we use a Samsung Galaxy Note7 or a-

Yusef 1:01:02 I'm really-

Chris Williamson 1:01:03 ... LG?

Yusef 1:01:03 I'm, I'm all ears. Like, I'd, I'd be keen to switch if there's some convincing reason to do it.

Jonny 1:01:06 So I think most of the mo- mo- most of the people that have said to me, "You should switch" th- it's on, it's on either on price or because they don't like Apple.

Yusef 1:01:15 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 1:01:16 So like, the-

Chris Williamson 1:01:17 Why?

Yusef 1:01:17 ... my reason, my reason for not buying a Samsung-

Chris Williamson 1:01:19 Do not buy an Apple.

Yusef 1:01:19 ... is not because I don't like Samsung. It's because I like Apple and what Apple make and everything just talks to each other and- I actually want, I want to like Samsung. I want to like a PC. But-

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 You're just a contrarian Alfred.

Yusef 1:01:28 (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:28 What if it's better? If it's much better, then, then great.

Yusef 1:01:31 Yeah.

Jonny 1:01:32 But you're right, like bu- if you had to then buy a Samsung laptop to get the same connectivity-

Chris Williamson 1:01:35 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 1:01:36 ... you would have a worse experience than what you have now.

Chris Williamson 1:01:38 The downstream effects of changing that device are AirPods don't work, uh, iPod-

Jonny 1:01:44 Oh, they really have got us locked in, haven't they? That's the-

Chris Williamson 1:01:46 i- iPad won't sync up. Like laptop's not going to sync up.

Jonny 1:01:49 Buddy, even things like y- y- if we all went to a café, and I had the lap- the password for the wifi, and you two didn't press a button, and you've both got the password.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 Yeah.

Jonny 1:01:57 You know, so like little things like that. Someone sat and thought, "What's someone's life like with a MacBook? And then let's make it a little bit easier."

Chris Williamson 1:02:05 Yeah.

Jonny 1:02:05 And that's what they do.

Chris Williamson 1:02:07 A- Apple fan base, man.

Yusef 1:02:08 It's, so it's changed David's life. He, he was staunchly one of these like-

Chris Williamson 1:02:11 Oh, yeah, the PC.

Yusef 1:02:12 ... "I hate Apple."

Chris Williamson 1:02:12 Yeah.

Yusef 1:02:12 "I'm not paying 300 quid for a laptop," which was a secondhand refurbished Apple MacBook.

Chris Williamson 1:02:16 (laughs)

Yusef 1:02:16 I was like, that's honestly David

Jonny 1:02:18 Steal. It's the fucking deal of the century.

Yusef 1:02:20 (laughs) He was like, "No, no, no." And I was like, "Look, just bite the bullet, do it," what I had, I had to bully him into buying one. He eventually did, and now that after a couple of weeks of his ego kind of-

Chris Williamson 1:02:28 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 1:02:28 ... s- he's been like, "You know what, Yusuf?" Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:31 'Cause he got Alfred?

Yusef 1:02:32 No. I, um, have to take him step by step.

Jonny 1:02:34 Oh, okay.

Chris Williamson 1:02:34 Ah.

Yusef 1:02:34 He's, he's, he's a big technophobe, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:36 Right.

Yusef 1:02:36 But he's like, "Why didn't I do this earlier? This is such ... This has made my life so much better."

Chris Williamson 1:02:41 Has he got an iPhone or are you-

Yusef 1:02:42 He had, he used to have a Chromebook. I think you saw it.

Jonny 1:02:44 Yeah, it was like falling apart.

Yusef 1:02:45 It was, it was held by two little threads, and like all the plastic was peeled off, and he had to like hold it like that, and hold the, the plug in the socket as well.

Chris Williamson 1:02:53 (laughs)

Yusef 1:02:53 Otherwise it would flicker off, and it would only work if you held it at a certain angle, and I was like, "David, you've really ran that into the ground." Like do not feel guilty about treating yourself to a new device at this stage.

Chris Williamson 1:03:03 Mm-hmm. Unbelievable. Uh, but yeah.

Yusef 1:03:06 Liam Neeson. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:08 Liam Neeson.

Jonny 1:03:08 New AirPods as well.

Chris Williamson 1:03:09 New AirPods coming out in March.

Jonny 1:03:11 How do you know that? 'Cause weirdly-

Chris Williamson 1:03:12 You said.

Jonny 1:03:13 ... I googled this yesterday.

Yusef 1:03:14 Yeah. Did, do you know what it was? You're, oh, God.

Chris Williamson 1:03:17 (laughs) Is it not true?

Yusef 1:03:18 No, no, no, I-

Chris Williamson 1:03:19 Have you lied?

Yusef 1:03:19 I saw a y- I saw some related video for something and it said, "Best knockoff AirPods, $50."

Chris Williamson 1:03:26 Right. (laughs)

Yusef 1:03:27 And it was a guy reviewing these knockoff AirPods, and then-

Chris Williamson 1:03:29 (laughs)

Yusef 1:03:29 ... the, the thing after that said AirPods 2, so I looked up AirPods 2.

Chris Williamson 1:03:33 Uh-huh.

Yusef 1:03:33 And yeah, they seem, they do like a matte black version that's gonna come out next month with some other features. It just doesn't excite me at all.

Chris Williamson 1:03:40 (laughs)

Yusef 1:03:42 I, like my, my Beanpods are lovely.

Jonny 1:03:44 I think they, I think the features are wireless charging and "Hey Siri" being-

Yusef 1:03:50 I can't believe that's not part of the release.

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 You just double tap it.

Jonny 1:03:53 Yeah, you double, double tap to activate.

Yusef 1:03:55 Okay. I've got "Hey Siri" on MacBook now.

Jonny 1:03:58 Did you not have it before?

Yusef 1:04:00 No.

Jonny 1:04:00 You just had to remove it.

Yusef 1:04:01 It's a special setup you have to do to, to enable "Hey Siri."

Jonny 1:04:04 Oh, what, and then it just picks it up a-

Yusef 1:04:06 Yeah.

Jonny 1:04:06 Oh my God.

Yusef 1:04:06 We'll, we'll go over that in Life Hacks 102.

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 7.

Jonny 1:04:10 I, wha- really?

Yusef 1:04:11 Yeah, I'll, I'll, we'll go through it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:13 Oh, God, that's so exciting. Can, can we do life