Men Are Taking More Viagra Than Ever - Zack Telander

Chris Williamson 0:00 According to one 2018 study, around half of British men in their 30s report difficulties getting or maintaining an erection. This is only going to get worse, I think, with Gen Z because the most socially anxious generation that we've ever had, highest rates of introversion, social anxiety disorders, and stuff like that. Getting naked with somebody, you know, that's gonna push a lot of people's buttons. (wind blowing) Zach Tellander, welcome to the show.

Zack Telander 0:23 I'm here.

Chris Williamson 0:25 We're both here.

Zack Telander 0:26 Again. And, uh, every time I'm on your show, I'm closer to you.

Chris Williamson 0:30 So, for the people who aren't aware, we live together, and you are sat on the other side of that wall-

Zack Telander 0:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:37 ... because (laughs) I don't have an in-person recording setup. So we're doing it this way, which is virtually, but also kind of in-person, and we can kind of hear each other through the doors.

Zack Telander 0:49 Yeah, that's the most concerning part is I can hear you through the door-

Chris Williamson 0:52 Twice.

Zack Telander 0:52 ... and through my headphones but, but it's all good.

Chris Williamson 0:54 Double.

Zack Telander 0:54 It's all good, baby.

Chris Williamson 0:55 Double cress. How we doing? You good?

Zack Telander 0:57 I'm good, man. I'm good. Had a good week so far. Good content. Uh, I don't know, man. So much has happened since I was last on the show, but it's hard to know exactly what has happened because-

Chris Williamson 1:09 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 1:10 ... you and I live together, so. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:12 Talking about it all the time.

Zack Telander 1:13 Yeah, I can't really update you, but, uh, yeah, still doing the same thing. You're doing the same thing even better, better and brighter, bigger, bigger guests, and also being on Joe Rogan, too. Massive.

Chris Williamson 1:25 That was wild, wild experience. Yeah, man. Absolutely wild. Uh, it, it's been strange. I mean, it's the number one podcast in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and England, or the UK at the moment. It's the number one podcast episode in all of those places, which is, uh, is just a terrifying amount.

Zack Telander 1:44 No way.

Chris Williamson 1:45 Yeah.

Zack Telander 1:47 Wow.

Chris Williamson 1:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a number one-

Zack Telander 1:48 That's 'cause I shared it.

Chris Williamson 1:49 You think?

Zack Telander 1:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:50 Yeah.

Zack Telander 1:50 I got you the most shared tag on Spotify.

Chris Williamson 1:53 Good. I'm glad.

Zack Telander 1:54 So-

Chris Williamson 1:54 I'm glad to hear that.

Zack Telander 1:54 You're welcome.

Chris Williamson 1:55 Uh, other things that have been happening in countries outside of ours, WNBA star Brittney Griner sentenced to nine years in Russian prison.

Zack Telander 2:05 So I, I saw that. I didn't really dive deep into that. Um, but does that mean that she still can't get extradited or traded for?

Chris Williamson 2:15 So this is the most recent update. This is from Daily Wire. "WNBA star Brittney Griner was sentenced to nine years in a Russian prison on Thursday. Russian prosecutors had argued that Griner, who was convicted of sneaking marijuana vaping materials into the country, should serve nine and a half years in prison." So she saved half a year, I guess. "The request came during closing arguments in a court outside Moscow, nearly six months after the six-foot-nine-inch WNBA star was nabbed in airport with contraband. The US has been trying to negotiate her release, reportedly considering offering a notorious Russian arms dealer imprisoned here as a trade." So I'm not sure if that guy is maybe gonna, uh, be swapped out for her or something, but it's a difficult situ- I mean, do you want to let a notorious Russian arms dealer go? No. Do you want a WNBA star that had a vape cartridge on her get jailed for nine years in a Russian gulag? Also no. Kind of, kind of hard to s- s- thread the needle. "'I never meant to hurt anybody, and I never, uh, meant to put in jeopardy the Russian population. I never meant to break any laws here,' Griner said prior to the delivery of the verdict in Khimki City Courthouse. 'I made an honest mistake, and I hope that your ruling, that in your ruling it doesn't end my life here. I know everybody keeps talking about political porn and politics, but I hope that is far from this courtroom.'" Uh, blah, blah, blah. She said that she only brought them to Russia by mistake, only used kind of... This is it. "Griner, who plays for the WNBA's Phoenix Mercury, had flown to Russia to finish a season for UMMC Ekaterinburg when she was arrested. Team competes." So she was over there playing, dude. Can you imagine accidentally having or even on purpose thinking, "Oh, I can fly a vape cartridge in," and then getting nine years in Russia? She's been there for six months already. She's already detained. Nine years in prison.

Zack Telander 4:03 Yeah, so, uh, I think a, a lot of the WNBA stars, the best of the WNBA, they go to other countries to make more money. Uh, I think they, they pay athletes for, uh, for women's basketball and particularly a lot more. So, a lot of women do this. This is a very common practice. But this is also not just Russia that has rules like this. A lot of Middle, Middle Eastern countries. Doesn't Bali have like, uh, crazy drug rules as well? Like-

Chris Williamson 4:35 Thailand is death if you're caught with the wrong drug. I think they still have the death sentence for people that are caught with the wrong drug.

Zack Telander 4:41 James was telling me about some guy who had some marijuana, and I think it was in Singapore. And, or I'm not entirely sure what country it was. I know it was Southeast Asia. And th- he had, uh, whipping. Like, they had to... They whipped him.

Chris Williamson 4:59 No fucking way. (laughs)

Zack Telander 5:01 Like, uh, like-

Chris Williamson 5:01 No fucking way. (laughs)

Zack Telander 5:01 ... a certain amount of lashes, yes.

Chris Williamson 5:03 (laughs) What is this?

Zack Telander 5:04 Yes.

Chris Williamson 5:04 Are we on a pirate ship?

Zack Telander 5:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:06 Is this, is this the 1700s? What's going on?

Zack Telander 5:08 Dude, and then, um, he, he was telling me another story about how... Well, he, he had a bunch of stories about this, uh, because he's covered it a lot. But there was a guy who, he was a, a football coach, so soccer coach. And he, um, he was taking his buddy to the airport, okay, uh, in, I think it was Dubai or something. And his buddy messaged him on WhatsApp saying, "Hey, by the way, I have a CBD pen that I left in your car." And the authorities, uh, were able to hack that message and arrested him. Like, they, they, they stopped his car, took him out of there, found the CBD or whatever, and I think he's rotting in jail.

Chris Williamson 5:54 Where's that?

Zack Telander 5:56 I, I, I think this one is a Middle Eastern country.

Chris Williamson 5:58 Right. Okay. So-

Zack Telander 5:59 But, again, I'm not entirely sure what the... He said it was like a, a football coach or something like that.

Chris Williamson 6:04 D- Dubai and the United Arab Emirates is somewhere you do not want to get caught with drugs.

Zack Telander 6:09 Right.

Chris Williamson 6:09 So I remember reading this story a few years ago about a guy that had a trace amount of marijuana on the bottom of his shoe.... on the bottom of his shoe. So, he'd stood in maybe some marijuana. Maybe it was his, maybe it wasn't. He was jailed for that. I've got another, uh, news story here, which is from April 2021. "American facing years in Dubai prison after cannabis traces found in urine. A man who legally enjoyed some cannabis in his home of Las Vegas is now facing three years in prison in the United Arab Emirates after being caught with traces of it in his urine. Peter Clark flew to Dubai on February 24th on a business trip, looking for a recording studio. The retired game designer then went to hospital following a pancreatitis attack."

Zack Telander 6:44 Oh.

Chris Williamson 6:44 "He was reported to authorities when doctors found hashish traces in his urine, which is considered possession in the UAE."

Zack Telander 6:53 Oh, my God. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:58 (laughs)

Zack Telander 6:58 Oh, my God. That is insane. That's, that is insane. That's crazy, dude. Medic- medic- you, they were probably forced to do that, right? It wasn't like... Like, it's part of their job, I'm sure.

Chris Williamson 7:15 I think they'll probably be-

Zack Telander 7:16 Like, they would get fired-

Chris Williamson 7:18 ... obliged. They would be obliged if they see it, to report it, yes.

Zack Telander 7:21 Yes.

Chris Williamson 7:21 I don't think they're probably going out of their way, but they'll have said, "What is it that I'm going to do? Blah, blah, blah. We found some weed. We need to, we need to report this to the authorities."

Zack Telander 7:31 And i- i- if we don't, we'll get in trouble.

Chris Williamson 7:33 Oh, yeah.

Zack Telander 7:34 Of course.

Chris Williamson 7:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Uh, but yeah, that's, that Brittney Griner thing is... I mean, Rogan posted about it earlier on today saying that, uh, there's people that are still in jail now in the US for drugs, uh, in states, for drugs that are now legal in those states.

Zack Telander 7:52 That's wild. It- what's the, what is... I, I can't believe I can't think of it. Um, after a law is... Like, once the law is changed, you can't get charged for it or something like that. It was... Uh, I can't think of the, the term, but if they change the law after you've broken it-

Chris Williamson 8:11 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 8:11 ... you can't go to jail for it, and I think vice versa works as well.

Chris Williamson 8:16 Oh, interesting.

Zack Telander 8:16 I don't know what the, what the term is, but-

Chris Williamson 8:18 Well, there's that-

Zack Telander 8:18 Um-

Chris Williamson 8:18 What's that thing? It's double jeopardy or whatever it is, where you can't be tried-

Zack Telander 8:21 Tried twice.

Chris Williamson 8:22 ... twice. Yeah.

Zack Telander 8:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:23 So that's, that's definitely... But dude, I mean, it just... I feel so bad for this Brittney Griner girl. Like, can you imagine being a, an athlete, peak of your sport, randomly got something in your suitcase, nine years in a Russian prison.

Zack Telander 8:39 I wonder if it plays out. Like, what are the odds that she is never traded for, to come back to the United States, and has to play out (laughs) and live out these nine years? What if she, like, learns Russian, has to join a gang, you know, to survive and shit?

Chris Williamson 8:56 (laughs)

Zack Telander 8:56 That'd be so cool.

Chris Williamson 8:58 It w-

Zack Telander 8:58 And then, like, once she's let go, she's like, like, kind of never the same and, like, wants to stay in Russia, you know?

Chris Williamson 9:05 Russian double agent.

Zack Telander 9:06 With her, with her, like, new family. She gets, like, a new lease on life. You know?

Chris Williamson 9:09 Well, I'm glad that you're being very hopeful about this. I, I wonder whether she feels the same.

Zack Telander 9:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:13 But, uh, yeah, dude, it's-

Zack Telander 9:15 You gotta lean into it at that point, I think.

Chris Williamson 9:17 It's fucking wild. That's one of the things. You know, for all the, those problems with the West and stuff, look at some of the drug laws in different countries. Look at some of the drug laws in the Middle East, in the Far East, in Russia. A- nine years for a vape cartridge. I just... Yeah, it's very, very, very strange. But yeah, I guess we'll wait and see. And also, the other thing is, let's say that... The best possible outcome here is that the US loses a arms dealer. We get an arms dealer back out-

Zack Telander 9:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:50 ... into the world.

Zack Telander 9:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:51 That's the best possible scenario. And then we get a WNBA star back. (growls) Also,

Chris Williamson 9:59 something else I wanted to talk to you about is, uh, "Why young men are turning to Viagra: 'I was really struggling to get it up.' More men in their 20s and 30s are taking little blue pills for a variety of sexual ills, from erectile dysfunction to anxiety about their performance in the bedroom. Ben Bryant speaks to users, doctors, and relationship counselors about a very cr- curious phenomenon." This is on The Independent. And we spoke about this last time, one of the previous episodes that you've been on. We were talking about, um, girls having anxiety around not being able to orgasm during sex and, like, performance anxiety during. Guys' equivalent of that is not getting it up. And-

Zack Telander 10:37 Yeah, and also, how many commercials do we have now where you can just get Viagra sent to you? Right? You, you, you, uh, kinda do, you... I don't know if anyone's done these before. Um, I've had sponsorships like Keeps, where you get, put in touch with a doctor, the doctor fills out a prescription, and you get it sent to your house. And, and that can happen in, like, within a half hour.

Chris Williamson 11:00 Well, remember that you can get over-the-counter Viagra. You don't need to have the consultation with the doctor, and this is actually one of the things that comes out of this-

Zack Telander 11:07 Really?

Chris Williamson 11:07 ... this news story. Yeah, you can just buy them over-the-counter. I mean, Blue Chew, right? Blue Chew is Viagra chewing gum, I think. Uh, they actually asked to sponsor the podcast, and I was... They're not quite right, I don't think. (laughs) Uh, but he was saying, um, "After a breakup from a five-year relationship, James was nervous about dating again. He was 27, healthy, and had a good sex life. But when it came to sleeping with new people, he was experiencing performance anxiety. 'I was really struggling to get it up. I got to this point where I was having sex with lots of people with like a 75% error rate.' James assumed that the problem was just nerves. He didn't seek advice from his GP. Instead, he started self-medicating with sildénafil, better known as Viagra. It worked instantly. When you take it, you can actually focus on enjoying sex and being in the moment as opposed to going, 'Oh my God, my dick is failing.' No, no, don't stop, keep going." (laughs) This is... Like, that's, that is exactly what your mind says.

Zack Telander 11:56 (laughs) Exactly.

Chris Williamson 11:57 But for the girls that are listening, the fear that you have as a guy, as you notice that that's slowly creeping in, is just this downward spiral of... And as you focus on it, that is exactly the, the first thing that's gonna cause it to go away.

Zack Telander 12:13 Yeah, I mean, uh, I'm not gonna lie, Christopher. It has happened to me-

Chris Williamson 12:17 (laughs)

Zack Telander 12:17 ... for sure.... uh, I have, uh, I have been in that situation, usually when I'm ... been drinking a little bit. And sometimes, you know, in the past, I have said, "This is just not gonna happen." And it's actually much more of a relief then to just say that. Just, it's not gonna happen-

Chris Williamson 12:34 It's not tonight.

Zack Telander 12:35 ... not tonight.

Chris Williamson 12:35 Not tonight, darling, I'm afraid. Yeah.

Zack Telander 12:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:37 Well, I mean, it, it's very difficult for girls to not feel like they've done something wrong. It's like that, that whole scenario is just a, i- i- it's just a litany of embarrassment and men feeling pretty ashamed of themselves, right? Like, it's the one thing that you're supposed to always be able to do. There's an expectation, I think, by society that men should be hot to trot all the time-

Zack Telander 12:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:55 ... that they should always be ready for sex and wanting sex. And, you know, th- the same is not expected of women. Now, there's other things that are expected of women which, you know, like to be able to orgasm during sex, and to be casual, and all this sort of stuff. But it's pretty uncomfortable. There was a period while I was in uni, and, uh, if ... Looking back now, it was so obvious. I'd had too much to drink. I hadn't been able to get it up when I was drunk. Then I had a fear that that was going to creep in when I was sober. And over time, it did. So, I'd managed to think myself into-

Zack Telander 13:28 Right.

Chris Williamson 13:28 ... performance anxiety. Physiologically, absolutely fine. Training in the gym, gaining loads of weight-

Zack Telander 13:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:32 ... health- relatively healthy, as healthy as a 21-year-old club promoter can be. Um, and what I did, how I fixed it, was I started to, uh, taper down a dose of Viagra during normal sex. So I would start-

Zack Telander 13:46 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:46 ... with a half, and then less, and then less, and then less. And over time you realize, uh, I'm, like, licking the outer coating of this.

Zack Telander 13:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:54 This is evidently not doing anything, and you go, "I'm, I'm coming back." But i- it was all about performance anxiety, and it's, it's brutal, man.

Zack Telander 14:00 Uh, my theory, a lot of it has to do with masturbation and the prevalence of it in young men. I think, like, y- it's something that definitely cannot be ignored, right? Like, you find a way to self-stimulate. I think Huberman talked about this on your podcast. You recently made a post about it. Uh, and, and I think that that's gotta be undeniable, right? Like, the, the getting used to s- watching other people for arousal, being in the comfort of your own home, you know, having your setup, you know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 14:32 (laughs) Your playlists and your suggested videos on ******.

Zack Telander 14:34 Yeah, getting the, getting the right video, you know, all of that-

Chris Williamson 14:37 (clears throat)

Zack Telander 14:38 ... that factors into somebody being like, "Well, you know, I might not have that when I'm with a girl. There's different situations that can happen. I'm not used to this person." What I have found is, whatever that anxiety is, it dissipates the more comfortable you get with that woman.

Chris Williamson 14:54 Mm. I would agree.

Zack Telander 14:55 So you're more and more ... Right? And I think i- i- Chris, it would be hard to do your technique of less and less of a dose with a new woman each time.

Chris Williamson 15:05 Mm. Because of the performance anxiety ******.

Zack Telander 15:05 I'm not sure if that's what you were ... I'm not sure if that's what you were doing, but I feel like that would be harder to do, uh, when, when you have a new woman, new stimulus every single time, and the new pressure comes in. If you're with someone and you've been with them before, I think it's only natural that that sort of, that, that sort of anxiety goes away. And that's the beauty of actually having a long-term relationship.

Chris Williamson 15:29 I agree. Yeah.

Zack Telander 15:29 Right? That is one of the most underrated aspects of it, is that the romantic side of things will undoubtedly get better. And if it doesn't, then I think that's, uh, you know, a b- a big point of error in your relationship and, and it might say something else about the relationship.

Chris Williamson 15:45 I always thought for a long time that people that said, you know, sex in a relationship is always gonna be better than one night stands, just as, like, a young, stupid guy, (blows air through closed lips) always thought that that was, like, just not accurate wisdom, and I've come to believe that it's the complete opposite. That guys often need to settle into who they're having sex with. The girls need to learn what it is that they like to do, and you become more comfortable with each other, and the intimacy, and all of that actually ends up enhancing the way that you have sex. Looking at some of the stats from that article, it says, "More than 60% of UK Viagra users are between 25 and 54 years old." So, one of the things that you would think is, well, younger people should have better testosterone levels, which should mean that their sex drive's higher. But I guess the other thing is that people over the age of 54 years old are not having as much sex. So you have two parameters going on, right? Like, one group of people is physiologically more predisposed to being able to get it up, uh, but needs to get it up more. The other group is less so, but also needs sex less, or is having sex less. So I think there's that little balance there that says, "According to one 2018 study, around half of British men in their thirties report difficulties getting or maintaining an erection." And this is only going to get worse, I think, with Gen Z, because the most socially anxious, uh, generation that we've ever had, highest rates of, like, introversion, social anxiety disorders, and stuff like that. Getting naked with somebody is ... You know, that's gonna push a lot of people's buttons. If they're uncomfortable going out of the house, or going into nightclubs, or loud noises, clapping, getting naked with somebody is gonna be a little bit too far.

Zack Telander 17:23 I think that the, the testosterone, uh, and the biological factors are the least important when it comes to getting it up. For sure. You know, in both our cases, uh, it had nothing to do with that. It was purely anxiety. It was purely in the head.

Chris Williamson 17:40 Yep.

Zack Telander 17:40 So, so I think ... I don't know. I think that the availability of Viagra for sure has gone up, 100%. Like, it ... The, the fact that I could right now, over the course of this podcast, order Viagra in, in a half hour and have it delivered to my door within days-

Chris Williamson 17:57 Mm.

Zack Telander 17:58 ... that was just something that never occurred. And now, now it's out and it's like, well, you might as well if you're gonna get some drinks on. It takes away the anxiety.

Chris Williamson 18:06 Uh.

Zack Telander 18:06 We don't really know the, the negative side effects. I mean, they, they list them, but a long time of using Viagra over time, like, we don't know exactly what that is. But, uh, it's definitely an option that men have now.

Chris Williamson 18:19 There's a bit here, uh, "The possible side effects include a reduction in efficacy over time, as well as more serious outcomes. Long-term use of Viagra can potentially increase the risk of physiological dependency, and has also been associated with various problems affecting the bearing ... the hearing and visual sy- visual systems and vision." So-I mean, (blows raspberry) it's a-

Zack Telander 18:38 But it's, like, it's like any drug, though. If you... Any drug, it's suggested to taper off of it and to come back into it, and... You know, it's the same thing with caffeine, the efficacy of caffeine, what, what the side effects of that are. Um, you went off of caffeine for how many days?

Chris Williamson 18:54 500 days, yeah.

Zack Telander 18:55 500 days off of caffeine, right? And, um, a lot of people can cycle these drugs that they just don't. And that, that's-

Chris Williamson 19:03 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 19:03 ... another thing, too. I mean, I think that the caffeine industry is, like, one of the craziest industries around, caffeine and nicotine in- industries. You know, people are slinging a psychoactive drug that has proven to be very effective, but they're not doing it really in a responsible way. I think if you look at what some of these people order, I mean, I, I know women who are like 115 pounds getting 300 milligrams of caffeine in their Starbucks. You know, like a, a, a very... What's the large one, the venti?

Chris Williamson 19:35 Yeah.

Zack Telander 19:36 A venti cold brew, right, that's gotta have around 300 milligrams of caffeine. And to do that and have that be part of your morning, like, thing, it's pretty freaking intense, wouldn't you say? Rather than, like, one little eight-ounce cup.

Chris Williamson 19:51 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 19:51 You know, one little eight-ounce cup of coffee to start your day, and then maybe another one later on. Now people have, like, monster (laughs) , you know, glasses of caffeine, filled with caffeine.

Chris Williamson 20:02 Yeah. I mean, there's a, a whole Mosi quote where he talks about how if you need to use a substance as a... Uh, "If you can't function without them, they've stopped conferring a benefit. Be able to stop them and only use them when you really know you can crush. On, off, on, off is typically good enough the most. But if you can't function without them, they've stopped conferring a benefit," is so on the money. That's exactly how I felt with caffeine. It's like, "Look, uh, this isn't a performance enhancer. It's a crutch. It's the only thing that's actually keeping me going here." But another element to, I guess, add into the Viagra conversation is what it means or how girls interpret it. So, this guy mentioned that he wasn't telling his partner. Wendy, 37, says that she would be unhappy to discover that her boyfriend was secretly taking Viagra because, "I would feel like, 'Oh, am I not good enough? Uh, but then I get more, but then I get that erectile dysfunction is more common as guys get older.'" So, it's kind of brutal. It's like, it, it's not about you. It is not a you thing. It is almost exclusively inside of my head, and yet women are... All that they're going to be able to see is all of the self-image concerns and the anxiety and the performance anxiety and, "I'm not good enough." And it's, like, a really, really bad situation.

Zack Telander 21:14 Yeah, and it's difficult. I was just kind of having a retort to what you were saying in my head, and then I just flipped it a little bit. But it is a difficult conversation, or at least a difficult position to say, "No, it really isn't you." Like, and, and I don't know how to prove that to you, but it's really not you.

Chris Williamson 21:31 Yeah.

Zack Telander 21:31 It's just overall anxiety. It, it's hard because you don't face this anxiety. But again, the only thing you can hope for is communication with your partner, like, just open communication. Like, "Look, this is what I've dealt with. This is, you know, whatever." As long as you are having sex and you're trying to get better and you're pleasing your partner and your partner is pleasing you, there are no real issues, right? There are things that you can work on together as long as you're open about whatever that thing is, I think.

Chris Williamson 21:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zack Telander 21:58 But it is still a difficult, you know, hill to get on top, to ge- to get over, to, uh, to then try and convince them or try to explain to them what this anxiety really is.

Chris Williamson 22:10 Yeah.

Zack Telander 22:11 And I don't think... It's not comparable to women and orgasms, because they don't have to necessarily explain why they didn't have an orgasm. They could, it might improve their sex lives, but it's not the same thing, right? Because-

Chris Williamson 22:22 It's certainly less obvious, right?

Zack Telander 22:25 ... they can still-

Chris Williamson 22:25 Like-

Zack Telander 22:25 Right.

Chris Williamson 22:25 ... women can either fake it or guys just don't... I mean, there are guys that will ask, like, "Did you come after you finished having sex?"

Zack Telander 22:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:31 But... And I guess that that's probably a pretty awkward, especially if you're a girl that maybe has performance anxiety in bed, that would probably suck to hear. Uh, but it's... I mean, at least you've been able to have sex. I would say, yeah, being pushed about orgasming during sex is uncomfortable, but it, it doesn't get into the same league, really, as not being able to get it up. Speaking about, uh, hot, like, w- weird sort of sex things, TikTok star

Chris Williamson 22:59 Addison Rae deletes blasphemous Holy Trinity bikini photo after backlash. Did you see this?

Zack Telander 23:05 Yep, saw it.

Chris Williamson 23:06 Okay. So, "TikTok star Addison Rae on Tuesday was hit with backlash for posting a blasphemous bikini that was Holy Trinity-themed, the Father on her right breast, Son on her left breast, and Holy Spirit on her bottom. Rae reportedly wore an Adidas Collaboration swimsuit, praying 'Holy Trinity' bikini in white, priced at $100. Uh, Instagram post showing off the bikini has been since deleted. Uh, 'This is disrespectful to Jesus,' 'Sad what y'all are doing for money,' one comment reportedly said. Another user adding, 'So messed up.' 'This is not okay.' 'Blasphemy,' someone wrote. 'Is nobody gonna talk about this disrespecting religions?' another user reacted. Um, 'Bikini blunder,' it's being called, and, 'Would she do it with Islam or Buddhism?' asked conservative beauty guru Amanda Ensing. Uh, former White House photographer Andrea Hanks commented, 'Any other faith and this would be an issue.' Tacky." One thing that's interesting is this is an issue. This isn't-

Zack Telander 23:58 Right.

Chris Williamson 23:59 ... something where the Christian community has just rolled over and let this sort of stuff happen. So, saying, uh, "Any other faith and this would be an issue," kind of is a bit dumb, because it is an issue-

Zack Telander 24:11 Right.

Chris Williamson 24:11 ... and it isn't any other faith.

Zack Telander 24:13 Yeah. Um, also, just to interject here, the sun should be over where the... You know what I mean? 'Cause it goes Father, Son down here.

Chris Williamson 24:22 Oh.

Zack Telander 24:22 And she had "Father" and "Son" on the left and right breast. The sun should've been on the bikini bottom.

Chris Williamson 24:27 And "Holy Spirit" up top.

Zack Telander 24:29 Yeah, but that would be weird though, right, to have a sun? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:31 Very weird. Very, very, very weird. What's she famous for? What's Addison Rae famous for?

Zack Telander 24:36 Uh, Tik- TikTok. So, she does dances and she's, she's good-looking.

Chris Williamson 24:39 She was in a movie, right?

Zack Telander 24:41 Yeah, and I heard it was horrible.I heard-

Chris Williamson 24:43 It's-

Zack Telander 24:43 ... it was horrible. It was like a remake of-

Chris Williamson 24:45 It's got, like, 30% on, uh, Rotten Tomatoes.

Zack Telander 24:47 Right. Yeah, but you know they made a ton of money on it just for the fact that she was in it. How many Gen Z kids watched it just to be like, "Oh, my God. That's Addison Rae," you know?

Chris Williamson 24:55 Mm.

Zack Telander 24:56 Um, but I- I- th- What's the company called that, that did it, that made the, uh-

Chris Williamson 25:02 Adidas.

Zack Telander 25:02 It's called, like ... Oh, no, no. But I thought, I thought that they had done it ... Wasn't there another company that called, like, Prayer or something?

Chris Williamson 25:10 Uh, I'm not sure.

Zack Telander 25:12 I just, I just saw a Phil- Philip DeFranco video on it.

Chris Williamson 25:15 Oh.

Zack Telander 25:15 And, like, if you, if you look at their Instagram, they have a lot of, um, stuff exactly like this. I forget what it's called.

Chris Williamson 25:22 Interesting.

Zack Telander 25:22 I just watched this. But yeah, I think this company ... I don't know if it was A- Adidas.

Chris Williamson 25:28 Adidas.

Zack Telander 25:28 Um, but I ... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:29 (laughs)

Zack Telander 25:31 It should be Ah-dee-das, right? 'Cause it's Adi Dasler.

Chris Williamson 25:34 Oh, yes.

Zack Telander 25:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:35 Well, you're the one that's ruining it. But yeah, I mean, (sighs) it's definitely, it definitely seems like, um, the world hasn't allowed this one to slide under the m- uh, under the radar, so to speak. I think if it had been ... I wonder if it had been a plus-size model if there would have been the equivalent amount of backlash, 'cause there would have definitely been accusations of sizeism and fatphobia and "slay queen" and stuff like that. There's definitely upper bounds on that.

Zack Telander 26:05 Uh, also, yeah, I mean, this is, this is definitely typical outrage, but I gotta tell you, if it was this company that I'm thinking of and not Adidas ... I don't know what Adidas's affiliation with it, maybe ... I don't know. But, I mean, I didn't really know much about Addison Rae. I do now. You know? And it's the same thing with, with any of this sort of backlash. It's- it is brilliant marketing, but it's also ... I don't know if that's a legitimate way to go about marketing.

Chris Williamson 26:35 Mm.

Zack Telander 26:35 I think this whole, you know, brand, their whole thing is to try and create something like this, and this was their golden ticket.

Chris Williamson 26:44 Hmm.

Zack Telander 26:45 Their sales are gonna go up.

Chris Williamson 26:47 Yeah.

Zack Telander 26:47 Undoubtedly.

Chris Williamson 26:48 Yeah, they are.

Zack Telander 26:48 They have to.

Chris Williamson 26:49 Uh, well, speaking

Chris Williamson 26:50 of people that have been using headlines to pump current albums and stuff like that, Demi Lovato has changed her pronoun, or she's added pronouns back in. Did you see this?

Zack Telander 27:01 Yes, I did, and I didn't know that it had, that an album was coming out as well.

Chris Williamson 27:05 She's got an album coming out later this month and didn't really make many headlines, it doesn't see, but she, uh, she updated her pronouns. "Another day, another tiring pronoun debate. Pronouns are simple. They have been for centuries, and yet people are acting like they're a brand new concept," This is from The Daily Beast. It's very pro-, uh, Demi. "This time the hot-button topic is being discussed not because of some horrible remarks from bigoted poli- politicians or a terrible tweet from a certain she who will not be named TERF, uh, but because singer and performer Demi Lovato announced that she, uh, she is using" ... that, sorry, I- I- This is so hard to read. "Performer and Demi Lovato announced they are using she/her pronouns now-"

Zack Telander 27:43 Oh, my god.

Chris Williamson 27:43 "... in addition to the they/them pronouns they already utilize. Lovato opened up about this in a recent development in her gender identity journey in an interview with The Spout podcast. 'Recently, I've been feeling more feminine, so I have adopted she/her again,' said Lovato. 'I'm such a fluid person.' Lovato came out as nonbinary in May 2021," blah, blah, blah, and then she reflected on coming out and said that she's now expanded w- "What have" (laughs) This is impossible to read. "Lovato reflected on this coming out journey and also explained why they are now expanding their pronouns to include she/her." But if she's used-

Zack Telander 28:20 So if she did, then we can say she and her.

Chris Williamson 28:23 Apparent- I don't really understand at all. Lovato's-

Zack Telander 28:26 That sentence doesn't make sense. If- Well, it- m- probably never did, but now we can say she and her, so stop saying they if you don't have to. I mean, you-

Chris Williamson 28:34 Look, Lovato's Instagram-

Zack Telander 28:35 It's all-encompassing.

Chris Williamson 28:35 -bio has been updated to include all the pro- all their pronouns, they/them, she/her. What is so shocking about this? Gender identity, much like sexuality, can be a very fluid thing," blah, blah, blah. So, I am a- I've always ... I'm friends with Blair White. Like, I'm happy to call people by their preferred pronouns. There has to be an upper bound on how many times someone can cause headlines and change them and then there's a, a ton of outrage. "Misleading headlines" This is still in The Daily Beast article. "Misleading headlines about how Lovato reverted back to she/her pronouns" um, because people said that she'd stopped being they/them and was exclusively going to she/her, which isn't correct. Uh, The Daily Mail has got it incorrect and, uh, b- basically, people are being ... Th- this Daily Beast article is shouting at other coverage saying that, "You need to do better. You need to be able to understand this bigotry and there's social media chatter," and all this stuff, and you go, look, it's- it's really hard, and if someone's going to continue to update their pronouns, like, you have to actually ... She even says, "I understand that the world of pronouns can be a little bit difficult for people. We just have to hope that everybody's doing their best." And yet most of the people that are commenting about this are using it as a political football that they can kick around to say, "You're a bigot because you don't understand," what to me is another level of complexity on top of the pronoun thing.

Zack Telander 29:58 So let's think about language for a second. Pronouns themselves are to make the language simpler, easier. I don't have to say Chris every time. I can say he. I can say him. It's a placeholder. And what you're doing is making something that's simple, you're making it much more confusing. Right? So even just a s- a minor amount of confusion is kind of a big deal in the English language because we don't know how to speak then, and what's really weird is that The Daily Beast says "they" and then calls her "she" and then also says that it's okay to call her "she" and "her," so w- what is ... like, what's going on? Like, what- what's the statement being made? Wh- So she wants to say that we can call her "she" now. Great.... but I don't understand how that fits into, to what we were doing prior.

Chris Williamson 30:50 I, I, I'm not under- I, I mean, it says here, "'I've actually adopted the pronoun she/her again,' she told the host on this podcast. 'So for me, I'm such a fluid person that I don't find that I am. I felt like, especially last year, my energy was balanced in my masculine and feminine energy, so when I was faced with the choice of walking into a bathroom and it said men, women and men, I didn't feel like there was a bathroom for me because I didn't necessarily feel like a woman and I didn't feel like a man. I just felt like a human. Recently, I've been feeling more feminine, so I've adopted she/her again,' she said, adding that the purpose of using they/them pronouns is about feeling human at your core. Uh, Lovato went on to assure others that nobody's perfect and everybody messes up pronouns at some point, and especially when people are learning, it's all just about respect." So, Demi Lovato seems completely fine with people trying their best to keep up with this stuff. There has to be an upper bound on how many... I mean, if she decides to add in more pronouns, is this, is there another wave of headlines that should come out, out about it? Should people be lambasted for not using... It, there's going to be more pronouns that you can use than can't use. Like, it's... I don't know. It, it's a very interesting-

Zack Telander 31:51 I don't-

Chris Williamson 31:51 ... situation to get into 'cause I've never... I don't think there's been a real public situation where somebody has added extra pronouns in now, and, uh, uh, I, I don't understand what the rules are supposed to be around this.

Zack Telander 32:05 Well, I, I don't think there are rules, but I think that, again, I would agree with you in that I don't really care if somebody wants some sort of preferred pronouns. It's just going to be very difficult for me to unlearn years of speaking to people. Uh, if, if I misgender somebody, like, honestly, I will feel bad and I will try to actually call them what they want, but it's, it's much more difficult when you mix, mix in plurals. That's where, for me, that sentence that you were trying to read, that is, that's very frustrating. Right? I don't actually care that she... She can name herself whatever she wants, okay? But the moment that we start mixing in plurals and shit like that, that's where I start to be like, hey, this is, uh, this is kinda bullshit. 'Cause then, 'cause then I can't formulate a sentence properly without being like, ugh, I don't, I don't know what to do. And that's, that's ultimately-

Chris Williamson 32:59 This was-

Zack Telander 32:59 ... what I'm not a fan of.

Chris Williamson 33:00 Or- originally, I think this was what, um, Peterson was concerned about, whatever, back in 2015 or '16, that it was a way for people to enact power over others, that you can force other people to change their behavior based on a claim that you make. There's very few things that I can force you to do, right? Like, you could even walk into me if we were going down a corridor on the same side of the corridor. I don't even, I can't even force you to move. But by using this, that does give people the opportunity to have a little bit of power. But I don't know. It, it seems like it's just a str- a very, very strange situation. It's a very strange situation.

Zack Telander 33:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:38 Uh, speaking of strange situations,

Chris Williamson 33:39 Beyoncé, heated lyrics. You mentioned this to me, and I've gone and had a look. "Beyoncé's new album, Renaissance, has been met with overwhelmingly positive reviews, but the acclaimed singer faced backlash from activists after Friday's record-breaking release for a lyric deemed ableist. On the song Heat, which Britney co-wrote, uh, Beyoncé co-wrote with Drake, she sings, 'Spazzin' on that ass, spaz on that ass.'" (laughs)

Zack Telander 34:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 34:09 Bro, I tried to do, I tried to (laughs) I tried. Sorry, sorry. The word spaz is derogatory?

Zack Telander 34:14 That's the first time I've heard the lyric. I knew it was spaz and it was-

Chris Williamson 34:17 Do you want me to give you, let me give you the full lyrics here, okay, so.

Zack Telander 34:19 Well, it's about, it's ab- for, uh, it's, it's about, uh, spastic cerebral palsy, which is an actual term, right?

Chris Williamson 34:25 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 34:26 It's a... It- and is that now a term that we're not allowed to use?

Chris Williamson 34:30 Well-

Zack Telander 34:31 Right? It's similar to-

Chris Williamson 34:32 ... it's a very much a British thing, I think.

Zack Telander 34:34 So, but saying someone is retarded, medically so, is actually not allowed even now.

Chris Williamson 34:42 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 34:42 Right? And I would- is, is the term spastic cerebral palsy, or how, however you say it, is that now in that same boat? That's just what I wanna clarify first.

Chris Williamson 34:53 So, medically, people, people would still be referred to as, um, whatever, retarded and, and spastic. That's, like, a medical diagnosis. The concern is when it becomes a pejorative, right, and people start using it as a slur. I think the-

Zack Telander 35:06 I don't even know that they're allowed to medically say that anymore, uh, about retarded.

Chris Williamson 35:11 I'm pretty sure. Well, they definitely are around the, the spastic thing because the person that brought the term up is, m- like, self-referred as that, so-

Zack Telander 35:20 Okay.

Chris Williamson 35:20 ... presumably, it is at least a little bit.

Zack Telander 35:21 Okay.

Chris Williamson 35:21 So, let me, let me give you some of the lyrics. "Bad, bad bitchy, make that bad bitch glitchy. Fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. Liberated living like we ain't got time. Yada yada ya, yada yada ya ya, yada yada yada, bom bom ca ca. Spazzin' on that ass, spaz on that ass. Fan me girl, uh, fan me quick, girl, I need my glass. Fan me off, my wrist goes click. Dimples on my hips, stretch marks on my tits. Drinkin' my water, mindin' my biz. Monday, I'm overrated. Tuesday, on my dick." The worst thing about that, apparently, is the spaz.

Zack Telander 36:00 Yeah, I have no idea... I feel like I just blacked out and I have no idea what you just said.

Chris Williamson 36:08 (laughs)

Zack Telander 36:09 I have no idea what just happened. That was really, really weird. You know how you just kinda, like, space out while someone's talking? That's exactly what I just did to you. I, I apologize. But it was like, I was just hearing noises come out of your mouth, and in n- and in no way did they make sense at all. And suddenly, we care about the word spastic in there. Spaz.

Chris Williamson 36:28 Look, you are not, you are not Beyoncé, one of the greatest songwriters of a generation, so you wouldn't, you wouldn't know.

Zack Telander 36:35 Oh, yeah. She, she-

Chris Williamson 36:35 Uh, but they've gone back and they've, uh, she's retroactively changing the lyrics. She's gonna change the lyrics so that it says "blastin'" instead of "spazzin'". I remember, as well, in-

Zack Telander 36:45 They already did it, by the way.

Chris Williamson 36:47 Oh, they updated it already?

Zack Telander 36:47 Yes, but there have been some vinyls that were pressed already-

Chris Williamson 36:52 Mm.

Zack Telander 36:53 ... uh, vinyls and CDs that were pressed already. So-

Chris Williamson 36:56 Can't re-record the vinyls.

Zack Telander 36:56 I imagine those would actually be the resale on those.

Chris Williamson 37:00 Oh, you got the spaz edition of Beyonce's new album, bro?

Zack Telander 37:03 (laughs) Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 37:12 Yeah. Uh, dude, I'm, I'm all for ... I mean, I, I've always thought that that word was a bit touchy because in the UK that's a word that's been used quite a bit as a pejorative. And I remember watching Iron Man and in it Tony Stark ... Do you remember when he's got social anxiety? Oh, he's got anxiety and he's having anxiety attacks. And he's with a little kid, I think it's in the third one, and it's snowing. And the kid's saying like, um, "What's going on? Where are we going? Can you help? What's happening? Are you okay? You're breathing fast." And he's trying to calm himself down and can't. Goes and sits over at Far Side and says, "See? You made me spaz out." He says that. Tony Stark says that. Coming out of Hollywood and that was only maybe s- within 10 years ago.

Zack Telander 37:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:53 Um, so I always ... Th- that stuck in my mind. That bit stuck in my mind 'cause I always thought, "Fucking hell. That's a bit of a heavy word to just be thrown around like that." So.

Zack Telander 38:04 Well, look, you, you know where this is going, correct? That in ... People will bring issues about certain things that have already been made and demand that they change them. And what's wild is that we're doing it to something that we thought we couldn't change. Given that ... So, given that most people stream music now, we can actually take songs out and put them back.

Chris Williamson 38:25 Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 38:27 And that's a wild thing. Like, we-

Chris Williamson 38:28 You can't even do that with YouTube videos, right? You could do that with ... You'd have to re-upload the YouTube video.

Zack Telander 38:33 Yeah. Well, I, I think they probably re-upload it. I don't know how it, how it works.

Chris Williamson 38:38 Yeah.

Zack Telander 38:38 But it's just a very weird thing. But now this is where, where the conversation is ultimately gonna go, is like the, the potential for slippery slope. And obviously the, the, the-

Chris Williamson 38:47 Oh. So how far back do you need to go in order to correct content that was problematic?

Zack Telander 38:49 Yeah. I mean, are we, are we just gonna, uh ... There's gotta be very, very problematic content that so many rappers, so many songs have used the word spaz. So many things have, like, said horrible things.

Chris Williamson 39:02 I remember Eminem, Eminem songs with it in.

Zack Telander 39:04 I mean-

Chris Williamson 39:04 50 Cent songs with it in.

Zack Telander 39:07 Yeah, I mean, it just, it, it's endless. So what are we gonna do? We just gonna go through and pick apart all these things? This is, you know, this is the, the, the slippery slope. I mean, then we have the, the Monica Lewinsky thing.

Chris Williamson 39:19 What happened with that?

Zack Telander 39:20 So Monica Lewinsky, she said, "While we're at it, you can change the lyrics to this song where you mention me, like, sucking Bill Clinton's dick or something." I don't know actually if it had anything to ... I don't know what the lyric is.

Chris Williamson 39:33 It was-

Zack Telander 39:33 But I know that-

Chris Williamson 39:33 I, I looked, I looked at it earlier on. So it was, uh, like, "Monica Lewinsky'd on my dress." So she was used ... It was like someone's cum on her dress.

Zack Telander 39:42 Yeah. Okay, so then, so, yeah, but here's the thing. It's like, "Monica Lewinsky, uh, what are you doing? Why do we care about you?" type of thing. That's kind of my re- reaction. Mono- Monica Lewinsky, why do we care about you?

Chris Williamson 39:57 Could be that.

Zack Telander 39:58 At, at least, I don't know. Is she big on Twitter or something? Does she-

Chris Williamson 40:00 She did a TED, she did a TEDx Talk or a TED Talk a couple of years ago that was pretty big. I guess she's just been at the center of American-

Zack Telander 40:07 Okay, well, maybe that was rude of me because, like, I personally, I'm, I'm ... Because I, I, I've no idea what Monica Lewinsky's up to.

Chris Williamson 40:14 I, it was before our, it was before our time, I think, that whole situation and tracking the Monica Lewinsky. Uh, did you see that Stranger Things went back and changed something in season three because fans pointed out a plot hole?

Zack Telander 40:28 Uh, that's ... Dude, this is gonna be endless. Endless. How many things have we seen where they've gone back and taken episodes out? I mean, whole things, whole seasons of-

Chris Williamson 40:39 Shit.

Zack Telander 40:40 ... has been altered on Hulu. I can't ... Off the top of my head I can't think of ... But there have been people who have had scandals and then they've gone in and taken their stuff off of streaming.

Chris Williamson 40:50 Mm.

Zack Telander 40:50 That, that for sure has happened. For sure.

Chris Williamson 40:53 Yeah, when people, people-

Zack Telander 40:53 Um, Chris, Chris D'Elia?

Chris Williamson 40:55 Yeah.

Zack Telander 40:55 He was, uh, taken out of a movie completely and they reshot his scenes, um, with obviously a much less funny person.

Chris Williamson 41:05 But that's different to going back and after it's been published-

Zack Telander 41:09 Right. Correct.

Chris Williamson 41:10 ... and is out there retroactively.

Zack Telander 41:11 Correct.

Chris Williamson 41:11 So, uh, for me, I don't think that ... The plot hole thing is n- not that big of a deal. Like if you've missed something and the fans tell you, "Go back and fix it." That seems-

Zack Telander 41:20 Oh, oh, oh, that's ... Oh, I didn't know that's why they did this, that for Stranger Things.

Chris Williamson 41:24 Yeah, yeah. It was, there wasn't something problematic. It wasn't-

Zack Telander 41:26 Oh, I mean, outrage.

Chris Williamson 41:27 No, it was ... People were outraged but they were outraged because there was a hole in the plot-

Zack Telander 41:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:31 ... and they went back and fixed that. So that's, that's one type. I guess another one is during the production or before it's released you find out something about somebody that's contributed to it and they get removed.

Zack Telander 41:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:41 That's also an element. I don't have any problem with that either. But when it comes to getting rid of stuff from many, many years ago, I can absolutely see ... I could absolutely see that happening. And the difference being, is it better to alter ... I actually don't think it is. It's definitely not better to go back and alter something than delete it outright. I think it's better to completely remove content from the inter- ... Like if you have to give me which version of hell do you want, the version where stuff gets deleted for all time.

Zack Telander 42:11 Instead of altered.

Chris Williamson 42:12 Yeah, precisely, because that's not the original vision for the piece of work and it's gonna give you a-

Zack Telander 42:16 But they're both versions of hell, correct?

Chris Williamson 42:17 Correct, correct.

Zack Telander 42:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:18 It's like that, uh, that guy, the meme of that guy with his hand up and he's got to pick one of the two buttons.

Zack Telander 42:22 Yes. Yeah, he's sweating.

Chris Williamson 42:24 Yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 42:24 So,

Zack Telander 42:25 uh, this is something that I was just thinking through. This whole outrage culture is, is bad because it's becoming ... It might become less viable to use outright outrage for good. I think that there's actually, uh, been a lot in cinema that's happened where outrage was good. So for instance, the Sonic the Hedgehog outrage.

Chris Williamson 42:48 What was that?

Zack Telander 42:48 They released the trailer for Sonic the Hedgehog and the (laughs) and he looked horrifying. Okay? So what they did was they fixed the way that he looked, went back in, and changed him completely-... and everyone was like, "Thank you. This is a better movie now." Straight up. This is a straight-up better movie. Um, there's a lot of, there was a lot of people saying, "Okay, hey, we need a Deadpool movie and we need it to be rated R. It needs to be legit." Came out, one of the most successful superhero movies at the time. And so, I think that outrage, that kind of feedback is really awesome. But what you're gonna see is, people are gonna be like, "Well, this is just outrage, you know, this is just outrage culture. Fuck 'em, we're not gonna listen to them, because this is what people do now." Right? So, you get that kinda the boy cried, well, Boy Who Cried Wolf effect, and I think that's gonna suck a lot-

Chris Williamson 43:42 Yeah.

Zack Telander 43:42 ... if it hasn't already happened.

Chris Williamson 43:44 It's a problem that people have around over-yusing the accusation of racism, right? If everything is racist, then nothing's racist, and when you-

Zack Telander 43:51 Right.

Chris Williamson 43:51 ... actually need to call out some real racists, where do you go? It's this ever, uh, intensity-increasing situation. And, yeah, you know-

Zack Telander 44:00 It's-

Chris Williamson 44:00 ... if, if outrage occurs at every corner, every opportunity, then yeah, when some real outrage is needed, you're going to be so desensitized to it that you're not even gonna notice.

Zack Telander 44:11 Yeah, I mean, a- and also how many people are gonna be like, "Oh," like, "I guess, I guess I'm a fucking racist if, if everyone's just gonna call that," and then they're just gonna go-

Chris Williamson 44:21 They lean into it, yeah.

Zack Telander 44:22 They're gonna lean into it. That is what trolls do. That is what the alt-right is all about, right? You tell me what I am? Fine, I'll fucking be that, and I'm gonna troll the-

Chris Williamson 44:31 Yeah, I'm gonna be the worst version-

Zack Telander 44:32 ... shit out of you.

Chris Williamson 44:33 ... of that that you can imagine.

Zack Telander 44:34 Yes.

Chris Williamson 44:34 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 44:34 That's essentially what, like, the, the whole issue with the alt-right is, right? You, it's almost like the left creates it. The okay symbol is a great example of this. Okay? The okay symbol is, uh, what was it? Like, the-

Chris Williamson 44:47 White power.

Zack Telander 44:48 White power, looks like a W and a P.

Chris Williamson 44:50 Yeah.

Zack Telander 44:50 That was something that was created on the back boards of 4chan, brought up, and then they're like, "Look, we fucking got this, these guys." And then the actual, you know, white nationalist parties were like, "Fuck it. We'll use it. Sure. If it pisses off the left-"

Chris Williamson 45:06 Hmm.

Zack Telander 45:06 "... we'll fucking use it."

Chris Williamson 45:07 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 45:08 And we don't know what's real. We don't know what a joke is. You know Poe's Law? Have you heard of P- Poe's Law? It's, it basically states that there is absolutely no way of knowing that something is satirical on the internet unless it is stated.

Chris Williamson 45:22 Hmm.

Zack Telander 45:22 Because what you can get into this endless feedback loop of people saying it was satirical, but then taking the satire and making it real and making it a part of it, and kind of creating this weird-

Chris Williamson 45:33 Oh, very interesting.

Zack Telander 45:33 ... cycle. And, and Poe's Law is a, is a product of the internet, and I think that this is s- sort of the stuff that we'll end up running into more and more. How many things have been created off of 4chan that have become something? The-

Chris Williamson 45:46 Did you see that-

Zack Telander 45:47 ... the-

Chris Williamson 45:47 Did you see that free bleeding? Did you ever see this?

Zack Telander 45:50 No.

Chris Williamson 45:51 Okay. So, people on 4chan wanted d- to try and troll women into believing that showing period blood on your clothes was a way of standing in solidarity with people that don't have access to birth control, maybe, or people in the Middle East. So, they created this campaign and m- many, many, many women started doing what was called free bleeding, and just allowing period blood to go on the outside of their clothes because that was in solidarity with their sisters in Asia or whatever it was.

Zack Telander 46:24 I mean, the, the biggest one we can think of is the Bored Ape Yacht Club, right? That is something that was directly created as kind of a joke, and it ended up being a billion-dollar troll.

Chris Williamson 46:37 Yeah.

Zack Telander 46:37 And now-

Chris Williamson 46:37 For people who don't know, people that don't know what we're talking about, once you finish this episode, go over to Philion's channel on YouTube and watch Bored Ape Nazi Club. Even if you don't think that it's true, it's one of the best har- like, hours of independent filmmaking. It's so, so thorough, and it's fascinating, all of the different imagery. Basically, he's saying that Bored Ape Yacht Club is a, um, a LARP-y sort of troll of alt-right imagery, references, stuff to do with Heil Hitler, stuff to do with the Jews, stuff to do with Auschwitz, all sorts of stuff. Uh, and he just lays it out over an hour, so you should go and check that out once we're finished.

Zack Telander 47:10 And I think this is also something interesting, especially with the Bored Ape Yacht Club. Are they actually, are they actually racist, even though they're, they're putting racist things in there to get something out of it? But they're n- they themselves might not be, or they might be, but it's all about the troll.

Chris Williamson 47:30 Yeah.

Zack Telander 47:31 Right? The real-life troll. And what we need to distinguish is does trolling mobilize actual racism, which mi- might be true, or is it just trolling for trolling's sake? Like, it, this is-

Chris Williamson 47:46 Well, how are you supposed to deal with it as well? Like, are you, are you suggesting, or would it be the case that you should let troll racism go in order to not galvanize one side?

Zack Telander 47:56 But that's the thing. We cannot... Again, this is, goes back to, to Poe's Law. We cannot discern what a troll is and what isn't.

Chris Williamson 48:03 Yes.

Zack Telander 48:04 You could point to something and say it's satirical, but the creator of it could be like, "No, this wasn't satire."

Chris Williamson 48:08 Hmm.

Zack Telander 48:09 He could say what- he or she could say whatever the fuck they want.

Chris Williamson 48:13 Yes.

Zack Telander 48:13 It's super interesting. This is-

Chris Williamson 48:14 It's very, very complex.

Zack Telander 48:14 And it's, it's, it's very important to understand this because, like, meme culture and meta culture and, and f- and this 4chan, it, it is where we are headed if we're not there already. Whoever can create the, the most clever, timely, maybe contrarian opinion in a funny way that is relatable wins. And by the time it's either proved incorrect or, or correct, it's already too late because it's viralized. So many people, like, just love the way that that meme is formatted 'cause it speaks to them. It doesn't matter. But now their opinion is n- is like, "Yeah, fuck yeah, you, you gave me my opinion on a platter." It's the, the biases that people have. And this is just how it works. Like, the power of memes is limitless.And there's, uh, there's also, like, a meme economy. I don't know if you know much about this. I don't really know too much about it, but essentially, it's like stock in memes. You can see which meme is going to per- outperform.

Chris Williamson 49:16 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 49:16 Right? Like, there's... I, I think there is a list of current memes and, like, where they are ranked and, and certain things like that. And think about that for a second. If you want to say something that makes a difference, you find a powerful meme and you can throw that out into the world.

Chris Williamson 49:33 Oh, I'll tell you where I've gone. So, I've just typed in "meme economy" online and you know the website that's come up to explain it to me? Knowyourmeme.com.

Zack Telander 49:40 Know Your Meme, yes.

Chris Williamson 49:41 Yeah. So-

Zack Telander 49:42 Who was... He was a guy on your show, correct?

Chris Williamson 49:44 No, we met him.

Zack Telander 49:45 Or...

Chris Williamson 49:45 We met him, I met him at, uh, Malice's party a few weeks ago.

Zack Telander 49:47 Oh.

Chris Williamson 49:47 The guy that owns it.

Zack Telander 49:48 Oh, yeah. Okay.

Chris Williamson 49:49 Yeah.

Zack Telander 49:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:49 He was fascinating. I met him with Sky and, uh...

Zack Telander 49:52 So, how much of that could then relate to crypto, which also could then relate to the stock market?

Chris Williamson 49:57 Yeah.

Zack Telander 49:58 It's fucking crazy to think about this.

Chris Williamson 50:01 Yeah.

Zack Telander 50:01 Were we always, as a culture, were we always n- doomed or headed to something like this where everything is meta, everything is... Like, these-

Chris Williamson 50:11 Well, think about, think about it this way. We've been talking about movies and stuff like that. How long has it been since there was a normal superhero movie that didn't have to have some weird quirk on the side of the character? You know, that... I mean, we've got hero movies now that are based on the villains. That's what Suicide Squad was, right?

Zack Telander 50:33 Right.

Chris Williamson 50:34 You have movies like The Boys on Amazon Prime, which everybody should go and watch because it's amazing.

Zack Telander 50:39 It's amazing. It's amazing.

Chris Williamson 50:40 And all of those characters, it... That's super, super, sort of, fourth degree removed, fifth degree removed meta-commentary about-

Zack Telander 50:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:49 So, it's interesting. I wonder whether part of it is because once you've played out very easy-to-guess archetypes and roles... You know, if we just did another, the first Superman, right? From whatever, the '50s or something. If we just put that out again, w- w- we've already done that. We've already... You know, that's been done-

Zack Telander 51:08 Correct.

Chris Williamson 51:08 ... to death. So, I do think that it's kind of an inevitable progression of the art form. But when it leaks over into news, into normal culture outside of the creative world, and the creative world and the cultural world and news and politics have all become intertwined because everybody's a pocket creator now, right?

Zack Telander 51:28 Yes.

Chris Williamson 51:28 Your dog does something funny, you take a photo of it. That could be the most famous dog ever. Remember the guy that did that, uh, lightsaber thing? What's that, 20 years ago now, probably, on the internet? The lightsaber dude? He, he... Chocolate Rain, you remember him?

Zack Telander 51:41 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 51:42 All of this stuff, man. Like, you get turned into memes. The, uh, fish and rice cakes dude from England.

Zack Telander 51:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:49 He got invited... So, here's a funny one. The guy that did fish and rice cakes got invited onto First Dates, which is a dating program in the UK.

Zack Telander 51:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:57 It's one of the biggest ones. He got invited on there, and he looks great. And he's got, like, half-sleeve tattoo, pretty cool, good-looking guy. And he was explaining about how he was, um, like, misrepresented on there. And then I think he also did a video on LADbible explaining it as well. It's not nice. I mean, Sony gave those four lads in jeans, uh, that were British as well, he, they gave them a contract for noise-canceling headphones because of, like, keeping the haters out. So, this is meme culture then getting fed back into advertising and...

Zack Telander 52:29 Yep, back into the cultural machine.

Chris Williamson 52:32 And, uh, it's wild. Yeah, yeah. Everything's clickbait, man. Uh, speaking

Chris Williamson 52:35 of movies and stuff like that. Batgirl and Scooby-Doo Holiday Haunt scrapped at Warner Bros. amid cost-savings push. So, Batgirl budgeted at around $80 million with costs rising up to nearly 90 million due to COVID. In a surprising development, Warner Bros. will no longer be releasing Batgirl, the DC film that had already completed shooting and was expected to arrive on HBO Max this year. The unusual move comes after a change in leadership at Warners, with newly installed Warner Bros. Discovery CEO David Zaslav prioritizing cost-cutting measures and, uh, refocusing Warners on creating theatrical films rather than just projects for streaming, as had been a priority for former WarnerMedia CEO Jason Kilar. Batgirl was budgeted at around $80 million, with costs rising to nearly 90 million due to COVID-19 protocols. It's a hefty sum but significantly lower than DC theatrical releases. Thus, the film is said to not have the spectacle that audience have come to expect from DC fare. The Batman, released in March, had a budget of $185 million before marketing costs. Warners also decided to shelve animated feature Scoob! Holiday Haunt, which had a budget in the $40 million range. So, I am not a massive fan of the current trend that we're seeing of trying to rinse every single franchise and squeeze it as hard as possible. You know, we had She-Hulk not long ago-

Zack Telander 53:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:52 ... that came out in the cinema, and it was... It didn't even make sense in the Hulk universe because the Hulk wasn't able to speak when he was Hulk. He was enraged. She's able to go to work. She's like a high-powered boss bitch lawyer with a briefcase. There's a scene where she picks some guy up that she's having a one-night stand with, picks him up from the couch and walks him into bed. It's like a total reversal, like gender role reversal thing. But it sucked. Let me see what She-Hulk-

Zack Telander 54:20 Well-

Chris Williamson 54:20 She-Hulk Rotten Tomatoes, what did it get? She-Hulk: Attorney at Law. That's literally, literally what it's called. Uh, is it out? TV series?

Zack Telander 54:34 Uh, it might not be out. I think-

Chris Williamson 54:36 Oh, release date 2022. Yeah.

Zack Telander 54:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:38 Well, I've seen a lot of... Oh, premieres on August 18th, so it'll be out pretty soon.

Zack Telander 54:42 So-

Chris Williamson 54:42 Uh, I... Something tells me it's gonna have a brutal Rotten Tomatoes score.

Zack Telander 54:46 Outside of the content sucking, right? What makes me the most angry is the ridiculous waste of money. Okay. As somebody who is currently trying to make a feature film happen, who's trying to raise money and really passionate about a certain project...... to see someone go through an entire w- what... Is it a single film or is it a season?

Chris Williamson 55:10 Series.

Zack Telander 55:10 Okay, a series. For eight- sorry, $90 million, shoot it all, and then never put it out. That is so unbelievably frustrating, but it points to the fact that the best culture cannot possibly be created by the top, not always. Like, the best music for this, this person, or the best, uh, cinema for this person will likely not be created at the top for that person, at least not to the degree that we think it is. Okay? If- if- if production is just a money throw, like throw money at it, pump it out, send it out. And we have the biggest market, we have the best streaming service, eat it up people, right? That- that happens ad nauseum. And, like, to kind of circle back to the Beyoncé thing, right? The- the... Another part to this was that she took a sample from Kelis and, uh-

Chris Williamson 56:11 Milkshake song, right?

Zack Telander 56:12 Kelas... Milkshake, yes. Actually kind of a good song, kind of a banger.

Chris Williamson 56:16 Yeah.

Zack Telander 56:16 But before any of that happened, before she didn't give credit at all, The Neptunes, which is Pharrell, they owned the song, and basically tricked her out of not getting any money on b- I think both of her first two albums, which they both produced, she signed a contract and she really did not make the money that she should have made. And what happened was Beyoncé then used Milkshake, which then brought that back into the fray.

Chris Williamson 56:44 She used Milkshake without the vocal though, right? She just-

Zack Telander 56:46 Right. But she-

Chris Williamson 56:47 ... used the sample of the instrumental which was owned by Pharrell which, who was also helping to produce Beyoncé's album.

Zack Telander 56:52 Exactly. Which, all it pointed to was that this fucking s- weird world of production of creativity still exists, and it still fucking sucks. It still absolutely blows.

Chris Williamson 57:06 Even at the elite level?

Zack Telander 57:07 Yes. And we live in a world now where you and I can go on the internet and create our content without any oversight at all. And I bel- I do believe that the fact that that's happening is awesome. To put more and more stress on the people up top who fuck over the real creators in this world, or the very talented people in this world. I- I- I honestly th- I honestly believe that.

Chris Williamson 57:28 Yeah, man, I mean, there's another element here, I think, of, um, cherished and treasured franchises and series being ruined. What's that quote about you either die the hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain?

Zack Telander 57:45 Yes.

Chris Williamson 57:45 That's what's happening with media now. Every company, every franchise is just rinsing... You know what the most impressive thing, I think, is? The Avengers finished. The Avengers stopped. That has to be the most successful, uh, movie franchise of the last, maybe ever, but certainly of the last few years. Maybe since Harry Potter, something like that.

Zack Telander 58:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:07 It'll be u- it'll be definitely up there. And they just went, spoiler alert for people that haven't seen it, "We're gonna kill the main character at the end, and then it's gonna finish." And obviously they've got, you know, Loki series-

Zack Telander 58:18 So many other things.

Chris Williamson 58:18 They've got all sorts of split-offs. So maybe M- Marvel isn't an amazing example because they're still rinsing the universe outside of it, but they stopped that bit, and that felt like... Do you not think that it's sad but it's kind of satisfying, and it all- almost makes that series, or, uh, what would you call it, that sequence of movies feel more special because you know-

Zack Telander 58:35 I love it.

Chris Williamson 58:36 ... that there's a full stop?

Zack Telander 58:37 Yes, no, I love it. I think, um, Ozark did a great job of that.

Chris Williamson 58:40 I haven't seen, uh-

Zack Telander 58:41 They're like, "Hard stop. It's over. We're done."

Chris Williamson 58:43 Oh.

Zack Telander 58:44 They, you know, th- they built the fucking story I think from day one, they had the same story. It wasn't they were building as they were going, they weren't trying to see where it could go.

Chris Williamson 58:51 They knew the end already.

Zack Telander 58:51 They knew the end. And I think, you know, if you look at... My... Debatably, one of my favorite shows ever created was True Detective season one.

Chris Williamson 59:02 Never seen it.

Zack Telander 59:02 Okay. So, that's Matthew McConaughey, Woody Harrelson, a couple other people, but a fantastic story. And not only that, like, very, very good cinematography and direction. Uh, and at the time, I- I mean, I still think it's, for me, top five, maybe top three, maybe the best one (laughs) that I can think of, of the, off the top of my head. They ended that series, Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson were done. So now they have to start, they do True Detective but they start a completely new, uh, place, a- a new idea, a new story arc. And I think that that's-

Chris Williamson 59:40 New investigators, new cast.

Zack Telander 59:41 Yes, and it has nothing to do with that first one. I think that's okay, but in my opinion, that was their way of being like, "Look, we can be legit, we can end this story, but we can keep this series alive-"

Chris Williamson 59:53 Yeah, let's-

Zack Telander 59:53 "... and hopefully milk people for more money." When they should have literally just been like, "That's it, we're done."

Chris Williamson 59:57 How did they-

Zack Telander 59:57 "One season, we're out."

Chris Williamson 59:59 Okay, so I'll push back against that. Think about if they'd come in with the second season and the second season was better than the first season. If they'd been able to do that, I think that you would've gone, "And you know what they did? They came back, it was really good, it was different, it was..." My point being that a lot of what we're saying here, we're trying to rationalize like a hard and fast rule about don't make female versions of fucking existing superheroes films.

Zack Telander 1:00:20 But if it's good, it's good.

Chris Williamson 1:00:21 P- precisely.

Zack Telander 1:00:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:22 What we, what we really mean is-

Zack Telander 1:00:24 Don't be bad.

Chris Williamson 1:00:25 ... don't ruin shit.

Zack Telander 1:00:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:26 Don't make terrible movies and series. The same thing goes for Game of Thrones. I-

Zack Telander 1:00:31 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:32 I- I've just spouted on for ages about how we shouldn't be rinsing the shit out of franchises and making terrible things, and House of Dragons and Beyond the Wall, or whatever the one that's about the North is, uh, both of those are coming out pretty soon and I can't wait. I'm absolutely gassed for those to come out. I think that Game of Thrones was particularly unsatisfying the way that it finished, and I also think that this will probably be pretty cool and I like George R.R. Martin's universe, so I want that. So I'm-

Zack Telander 1:00:57 I like-

Chris Williamson 1:00:57 ... basically, I'm difficult to please.

Zack Telander 1:00:59 ... I- I like they were, that they were rinsed solely because they were trying to get out of there, those two guys, Benioff and whatever.

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 Dan and Dave.

Zack Telander 1:01:07 They were trying to get the fuck out of there.... they were like, "We're done with this. We're gonna go make a Star Wars movie. We're going over to Lucas Pictures." That's why I d- that's why I think fuck 'em, rinse 'em, destroy 'em. Um, not only did they make a piece of shit ending to an amazing series that was actually pretty accurate to the books, and even though they were allowed to finish how they kinda wanted to because the books hadn't been out yet, they f- they were like, "Let's get outta here." And that's how it felt. Maybe that's not how it was, but you could even see, um... Did you see the cast table, the video of them at the casting table where they, like, look at the shit and they're like-

Chris Williamson 1:01:41 Yes.

Zack Telander 1:01:42 ... "What?"

Chris Williamson 1:01:42 Yes.

Zack Telander 1:01:43 You know? Like, people w- were watching this and they were like, "This is not who I am. This is not how I am." Another a- another one of that is, um, the guy who plays Luke Skywalker throughout the whole series, I can't think of his name-

Chris Williamson 1:01:55 Hamill.

Zack Telander 1:01:55 ... it's pathetic of me, I'm sorry.

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 Yup.

Zack Telander 1:01:57 Oh, Hamill. Something Ham- Hamill, I think? Whatever. Uh, he, he was like, in interviews, I think he might've been a little boozed up or something, but he was like, "This shit sucks," you know? Or like, or s-

Chris Williamson 1:02:10 Sucks.

Zack Telander 1:02:11 Not (laughs) , not that, not that, but it was like he virtually had said like, "This is not-"

Chris Williamson 1:02:16 Have you seen-

Zack Telander 1:02:17 "... good. What we just made was not good."

Chris Williamson 1:02:19 So, there's a, a bunch of interviews that people can go and watch with the cast of Game of Thrones after they'd finished filming season eight, but before it had been aired. And in all of the interviews when they're being asked, "So, tell us, you know, is it exciting or is it whatever?" Kit Harington's the best 'cause he's British and pretty much unable to keep his, like, emotions to himself, and it's just so obvious they're dying inside. They don't, they're, like, they're just completely unsatisfied with it. Another person that's amazing when it comes to media interviews, have you seen Tom Holland, the guy that does Spider-Man?

Zack Telander 1:02:51 Yes. And he, he-

Chris Williamson 1:02:52 Have you seen how much he fucks up?

Zack Telander 1:02:54 Yeah. And how much he gives away, like, what ends up happening. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 Yep. Yeah. People w- people were saying-

Zack Telander 1:02:58 Don't let him fucking speak anymore.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 They said about, um, was it Avengers, whatever the one where Thanos snaps his fingers? And during the press tour for that, it was something like a, um, with, th- the interviewer had said, "We're scared of losing more people," or something, something, something. And Tom Holland s- literally responded and said, "Well, half of everybody dies in this episode." Or, like-

Zack Telander 1:03:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:22 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:03:22 Okay, okay. This is a crazy one. Ready for this? So, A Star Is Born. I'm going in to see it with my buddy. I'm actually really stoked for this movie. Uh, and w- it's one of those movie theaters where you get food served to you. And so we go to sit down and our waitress comes out, and she's like (laughs) , she's like, "Hey, look. The ending is really sad, so I'm actually gonna, um, try and get you guys to pay before, about 20 minutes before it ends." And we're... I literally look at her, I'm like, "Okay. So, uh, Bradley Cooper dies is what you're telling me?" Right? Like, I didn't say that, I didn't say that to her, but my jaw dropped. She walks away.

Chris Williamson 1:04:02 Ah, shit.

Zack Telander 1:04:03 And I just immediately knew it. I knew what happened. Y- all you had to say was, "It's sad." You just had to say that. How about just don't fucking say that? And now I was thinking about it, how many people's movie-going experience did this woman ruin (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 1:04:15 This one lady ruin (laughs) .

Zack Telander 1:04:17 ... thinking that she was getting on top of her job (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:04:21 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:04:21 You know what I mean? Like...

Chris Williamson 1:04:23 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 1:04:23 Not only, not only on that day, but over the course of the month.

Chris Williamson 1:04:27 Consistently.

Zack Telander 1:04:27 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:04:27 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 1:04:28 She ruined that.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 Fuck. So my housemate, my housemate back in the UK, Toby, has this unbelievable ability to see what's gonna happen in series. So, if it's a murder mystery, within half an hour he's like, "He did it." And sure enough it's him. So, I- I imagine that if you're really smart at being able to detect narratives, I'm completely not, so I'm always surprised at the end and oblivious to whatever's going on. I imagine it's kind of the same. If you're one of those people that's really talented at being able to pick out who did the thing and looking for nuance and she went to the left or whatever, this is basically the same thing, because you, there's no surprise at the end of it. I don't know whether you know about a YouTube channel called Emergency Awesome?

Zack Telander 1:05:10 Mm-mm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:10 He does, he does analysis and breakdowns of trailers and series, and one of the best things that happened during Game of Thrones was I'd watch the episode and then I'd go and watch his half-hour-long breakdown that explained all of this stuff. And I knew that, uh, Jon Snow was a Targaryen-

Zack Telander 1:05:29 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Actually, I watched a ton of that.

Chris Williamson 1:05:31 ... way Yeah.

Zack Telander 1:05:31 And also, yeah, I, I was just really into, uh, Wiki of Ice and Fire. I don't know if you know what that is.

Chris Williamson 1:05:36 Yes, yep. Yep, yep.

Zack Telander 1:05:36 It's basically the, the Wikipedia for that series. So, when I was bored I was just... 'Cause I was... Man, I was really, really obsessed with not just Game of Thrones, but uh, um, A Song of Ice and Fire. Like, I was really, really into it. So, very early on, mind you. I was a sophomore in college when it started coming out, so it's like my consumption of this was cons- considerable. I mean, it was literally 10 years of my life, or over that, where I was like into this thing.

Chris Williamson 1:06:05 Mm-hmm.

Zack Telander 1:06:05 And to have it end like it did was, that was the slap in the face. But sorry, I interrupted you.

Chris Williamson 1:06:09 No, that was it, man.

Zack Telander 1:06:10 No.

Chris Williamson 1:06:10 Just that, uh, I, I imagine that if you've got a, an unbelievable insight when it comes to movies-

Zack Telander 1:06:14 Well, I w-

Chris Williamson 1:06:15 ... it kind of ruins them.

Zack Telander 1:06:16 Yeah. I w- I w- I wouldn't say I have an unbelievable insight, but with A Star Is Born, I knew because, like, the trailer had kind of alluded to Bradley Cooper being a piece of shit, right? Or, or ha- or being this, this, uh, doomed rockstar, okay? And the moment the woman comes up to me and says, "Hey, it's a sad ending (laughs) ." So, I wanna get outta here. But I, I, like, I don't wanna, like, interrupt the ending or something like that. And I'm just like, "Oh, so he dies. Th- thanks, he dies. Okay, cool. Let's get on with the movie. Thank you."

Chris Williamson 1:06:48 (laughs) Look, dude, let's bring-

Zack Telander 1:06:49 Immediately,

Zack Telander 1:06:50 yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:50 Let's bring this one home. Uh-

Zack Telander 1:06:51 Yup.

Chris Williamson 1:06:51 ... your current movie project-

Zack Telander 1:06:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:06:54 ... that you're looking for funding for, where can people go to check that out?

Zack Telander 1:06:57 Uh, go to Wefunder.com and then search The Wait. So, it's The Wait LLC. We created an LLC. We created a lot of stuff to get this Wefunder going.

Chris Williamson 1:07:05 It's Wait, uh, W-E-I-G-H-T.

Zack Telander 1:07:08 Yes. The Wait. And, uh, right now we have over $150,000 raised, and we have, uh, a lead investor. We have a lot of things in place. Um, the backend is completely full. Like, we have everything we need to get this thing going. Um, and people can not just donate, they can invest and actually have the potential to make their money back and make more money, but also be part of the production of the first weightlifting-based narrative feature film.

Chris Williamson 1:07:38 And your socials and all that stuff as well, where should people go?

Zack Telander 1:07:41 Y- yeah, uh, coach_zt on Instagram, and my name, Zach Tellander, on YouTube.

Chris Williamson 1:07:47 All right, dude. Appreciate you. What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.