Men Aren't Having Enough Sex - Zack Telander

Chris Williamson 0:00 Conventional attractiveness has zero predictive power for long-term relationship success. What the (censored) ?

Zack Telander 0:07 It doesn't matter how loudly or how many times you say that, I'm pretty sure it's been said many times before and it's only getting more and more important.

Chris Williamson 0:16 How are you feeling after your weekend gig playing, uh, Champagne Supernova to a massive crowd of, uh, 18 adults and five children, uh, on Saturday?

Zack Telander 0:26 You know, I- I- I feel like a celebrity. You know? Just walking into a party, picking up an instrument and singing an absolute classic. That's... By the way, like, I- I said that that night, like, that has gotta be a staple if you're trying to just have a singalong song. Really, any Oasis song, we've determined.

Chris Williamson 0:44 The thing is-

Zack Telander 0:44 Champagne Supernova.

Chris Williamson 0:45 ... in the UK, if you were to ask it in the UK, it would be a bit cheesy, because everybody already thinks that. Like, to- to put Wonder Wall or Don't Look Back in Anger or Champagne Supernova, it's so obvious. But I said it in America and everyone was like, "Yes, amazing idea." I'm thinking, "Hmm, it was the first thing that came to mind."

Zack Telander 1:05 Well, okay. Wonder Wall, Wonder Wall is... It's like that here. Okay, so that is a corny one to choose. If you've gotta pick up a guitar and you start playing Wonder Wall, you're gonna get shit for it, 100%, because it's just like, you know... You know the meme where it's like the conversation ends and you go, "Anyway, here's Wonder Wall."

Chris Williamson 1:23 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:24 You know?

Chris Williamson 1:25 No.

Zack Telander 1:26 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:26 No.

Zack Telander 1:26 So that... It is, it is a widely known thing, just like don't play Wonder Wall. But Champagne Supernova, that's not off limits.

Chris Williamson 1:33 You crushed it, man. It was good. Yeah, we had a... I had a great Saturday. I went to LIFT: ATX, this new indoor/outdoor gym. That was fantastic. It's a bit hot. Well, it's very hot. Austin generally, man... I went away to Guatemala, right? So I'm in Guatemala, uh, getting the visa thing and then I come back and something's happened. Someone's flicked a switch in Austin and this place is disgusting now. And it's appare- uh, everyone's like, "Oh, just wait until summer arrives." I don't want to wait until summer arrives. This is already far too much for me.

Zack Telander 2:01 Yeah. It's... At a certain point, it's either like you go from AC unit to AC unit or AC unit to pool, you know?

Chris Williamson 2:10 To shower.

Zack Telander 2:10 Like-

Chris Williamson 2:11 To AC unit.

Zack Telander 2:11 Yeah, to shower. You don't wanna... You're not just like doing outdoor activities and not having, like, air conditioning near you.

Chris Williamson 2:18 Well-

Zack Telander 2:19 For sure.

Chris Williamson 2:19 Like, everyone in England knows... Most people in cold places understand that you want to dress appropriately and spend as little time in the cold as possible moving from, you know, a heated car, to a heated house, to a heated office, to a gym or whatever. But the reverse just is so bizarre. It's like, oh, you don't wanna go outside, it's too hot. Like, there, there's never been a problem. I've always wanted it to be more hot. But yeah, so, uh, did LIFT: ATX, that was cool. Went to see Everything Everywhere All at Once with Sky-

Zack Telander 2:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:48 ... because it's- it's to do with Asian stuff, so Sky was in love with it. And, uh, for the people that haven't seen it, it's pretty cool. I don't think it's the best film ever made, which tons of people are- are sort of giving it that accolade, but it's pretty good.

Zack Telander 3:02 Yeah. The- the one assessment you said was like it wasn't, um, like, uh, like deeply sci-fi enough, right? Like it didn't-

Chris Williamson 3:09 Yeah, I just thought it was gonna be more like Tenet or Interstellar-

Zack Telander 3:13 Yes.

Chris Williamson 3:13 ... or something that was gonna blow my face off. And it was funny and- and quirky and it had charisma and stuff, but that, for me, that detracted away from the serious, whatever, philosophical undertone of it. And then I asked a bunch of the guys, everyone had a different idea about what it meant and no one agreed with anyone else about what the under... like the subtext of the, of the plot was. Uh, and then we went to our boy Chase's birthday, you played Wonder Wall, and then I went to a new nightclub. So this weekend was pretty, pretty fun, man. I- I got a lot in.

Zack Telander 3:43 Yeah. Yeah, that's just gonna be the typical weekend for someone who's now a visa holder in the States. It's not-

Chris Williamson 3:48 Yes, sir.

Zack Telander 3:48 ... it's a big deal. You can't just, you can't just glance over that. That's a big deal, man.

Chris Williamson 3:52 Let's go.

Zack Telander 3:53 You're here now.

Chris Williamson 3:54 Can come and go as I want, man.

Zack Telander 3:55 You can... You can fly in and out, right? Yeah, there you go.

Chris Williamson 3:57 Literally. Yeah, I mean, that was-

Zack Telander 3:59 Congrats.

Chris Williamson 3:59 Getting the O1 is, is such a, um... It was such a journey. Like, 700 pages to get that portfolio submitted, and you need signatories and you need offers of work and you need a- a sponsor here in the US and all of these. It's so weird. Like, it literally would have been easier for me to fly to Mexico and walk over the border. I'm pretty sure that that would have been a simpler solution.

Zack Telander 4:22 (laughs) Just being illegal.

Chris Williamson 4:22 Yeah.

Zack Telander 4:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:23 That would have been an easier solution. But it's done, man.

Zack Telander 4:28 Yeah, probably.

Chris Williamson 4:29 I'm here. I'm here now. Um,

Chris Williamson 4:31 I was watching that Kyriakos Grizzly video that you did where he talks about training for the difficult.

Zack Telander 4:38 Yes.

Chris Williamson 4:39 What- what is that?

Zack Telander 4:41 Well, I, I think, first off, Kyriakos Grizzly is... He is... He's an enigma. He is very, very strong, but he does these unusual movements that are not very functional, I guess would be the definition. He- he- he does like Zercher shrugs. So he'll, like, literally stand with weights in his elbows, like a barbell in his elbow with an obscene amount of weight, and he'll just like shrug it up and down two inches. Okay? And then he'll put it down and start screaming. He's also a very, very large individual. Like, part of his training is just like getting on the scale and it says like, "195 kilos body weight." And it's like, you know, it's like a- a- a thing that he's passionate about, is how heavy he is. He's... And- and what- what's interesting is... What happens with a lot of the fitness industry around YouTube, and I can- I can list off examples, but these guys, they're kind of, you know, enigmatic, like I said, but then they kind of get memed. And maybe someone thinks they're stupid or foolish at first, but then they just keep going long enough to where it- it's... Yes, it is this under-said joke, right? It's like Kyriakos Grizzly, like we all know what's going on. But at the same time, the joke has been going on so long that, like, you're an asshole if you don't go along with the joke.... and I absolutely love it. Like, I c- I can't get enough of, of this guy. So, what he says is two things. He says, "You have to live it." And you, and then the other one is training f- Someone says, "Why do you train so hard?" He goes, "For the difficult."

Chris Williamson 6:19 (laughs)

Zack Telander 6:19 Okay? Which is ... Okay? It's amazing. It's amazing. If you're gonna a- if you're gonna think of like a Greek accent, someone going like, "For the difficult."

Chris Williamson 6:30 (laughs)

Zack Telander 6:30 You know? It's, it's, it's not like grammatically correct, but yes, it's, it's for the difficult.

Chris Williamson 6:34 (laughs)

Zack Telander 6:35 And I perceive it as, you know, just giving yourself advers- adversity so you can create a better version of yourself. Uh, but what I did was I kind of deconstructed that and, and tried to make a video that I could help people with. And, um, there was this really good example that I used of Jack White, who's like one of ... If I look up to anyone in music, it's, it's Jack White. And one of the things he said in this documentary, it's a great documentary, it's called Under these Great Northern Lights, and it's him and Meg White and The White Stripes, and they're going, uh, through Canada, and they just go through like really random places and play live gigs. But one of the things he says is like, um, "Convenience is the enemy of creativity." And being ... If, if you are given all of these opportunities, it's h- less likely, or if things are made easier for you, it's less likely that you're gonna make something that you're gonna see as worthwhile. And one of the things that he says is like, you know, for instance, you know, book four days in the studio and make yourself make an entire LP, which is a full-length album. And, uh, a couple of, you know ... One of the things he says is like, "If I go up on stage and I just kinda play what we usually play, and I don't show that effort, people know. Whether they, whether they say that they know it, there's something inherent where they can tell that you're just kind of, just going through the motions. So, what I try to do is make things difficult." You know? A la for the difficult. And so he's like, "I played these 15-year-old piece of shit guitars that go out of tune, their strings snap. I play them because it's an added challenge. I put my picks on the amp behind me rather than on the microphone stand. So if I drop a pick, I have to, during the song, find a point where I could sprint back and get a pick. I make the piano, uh, a distance away from me so when I switch from the guitar to the piano, I have to sprint over there. I have to time it up just right and if I don't, I'll miss it." And he's like, "I add all of these challenges in so that I can create something beautiful for people to watch." And, uh, and I l- I liken that to for the difficult. I try to, you know, I try to take something that's meme-worthy and see what we can learn from it. I usually do that sorta s- sort of thing with my videos. Um, another example of this is actually, I th- I think it was David Goggins on, uh, Rogan, and he, I, I believe he said, he's like, "I'm gonna go back to work, Joe. Like, my hands are getting too soft." And he, and he said he wanted to do, like, smoke jumping, which is, um, like forest fire, uh, fighter or something like that. I, I can't remember the exact ... And if he actually ended up doing it. He's like, "You know, my life has gotten too easy for myself." He's like, "I gotta make it hard." And so, like, I always think about those things. It's like, am I making life too easy for myself? Are you, out there, making life too easy for yourself? What can you do to make it so it's more difficult, but still able to move forward?

Chris Williamson 9:40 Goggins hasn't done any media in three years. I found this out last week. He hasn't done any new media, like, in three years.

Chris Williamson 9:49 He's done little bits for his own channel, but he hasn't ... You know, he, he ... Someone like him breaks onto the scene and you would expect to see him on Rogan once a year, and he would be doing rounds sort of constantly, and he hasn't done anything for three years, which is pretty wild. So, maybe he has been training for the difficult. Maybe he has been doing whatever it is.

Zack Telander 10:06 Oh, 100%. Knowing that guy, he has to be. He has to be.

Chris Williamson 10:10 Have you read his book? I've only d- I, I never read it when it first came out, but I'm-

Zack Telander 10:13 No.

Chris Williamson 10:14 ... I'm listening to it now. Dude, it's so good. And, uh, this guy had such a fucked up childhood. It was ruthless. His dad was a pimp that ran a roller skate rink and they, he used to make the kids sleep in the office 'cause they would be cashing up and, oh, dude, it was, it was terrible. Like, absolutely awful. And then his mum was about to marry this guy and this guy dies and he was finally gonna have a family and then he doesn't, and then ... Just a, an endless number of catastrophes that happen, and then there's all of that stuff about him cleaning out cockroaches. It's a super inspiring story. I, I get that he's not everyone's cup of tea because of the way that he communicates but-

Zack Telander 10:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:53 ... he's, he's fantastic, man. Like, I, I, I'm really looking forward ... I think he's gonna be doing more stuff this year. I think he's gonna be back on it this year, um, and i- if that's the case, it's like, there aren't many other people that do what he does. Even Jocko, who's, you know, kinda close to him-

Zack Telander 11:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:08 ... in terms of his rhetoric, they're just not the same. Like, Jocko does the Jocko thing and Goggins does the Goggins thing, so I'm, I'm glad that he's, he's maybe coming back. Uh-

Zack Telander 11:17 What are your ... Hold on. What are, what are your thoughts on poking your head out every once in a while when you're, when you're at that level? Maybe David Goggins isn't quite at that level, but what are your thoughts on the less is more approach to maybe social media, to whatever that may be?

Chris Williamson 11:33 Well, Robert Greene talks about the fact that a little bit of aloofness creates a sense of mystique and sort of attraction around who you are, because if people always know that they can get ahold of you as much as they want, I don't know, it d- it doesn't seem as special anymore. Um, it seems to me that it's probably just like any other normal distribution, right? That if you're gonna post very, very consistently online and put out tons and tons of content, you have to be an outlier in terms of the quality. So, James Smith's a good example of this, right? He has ... I wouldn't like to guess the last time that he went 24 hours without his story being up, and it's always tons and tons of stories, and they're always face to camera, and they're always ...... th- there's always something happening, right? But he's an outlier because he's interesting. Like, he's a f- he's a funny guy that has great delivery online, so he can get away with that. Now, I think it would probably be a bit of a waste if you had James' skill and decided to only do it, uh, every three years, do a little batch of, uh, of runs. Uh, there's definitely something exciting about only getting, like, uh, uh, a limited run of access-

Zack Telander 12:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:37 ... to someone's ideas. Um, and something tells me that (exhales) maybe with Goggins, he's, he's probably the sort of guy that's going to have enough stories and enough amazing insights to maybe do that, to do like a condensed run every three years, and then go away and then prove himself for The Difficult, and to then come back and be like, "Look, here's what I learned having done The Difficult. Here are some more things for you to learn about." But if it was just consistent, I don't know whether that would work quite so well. You know what I mean?

Zack Telander 13:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:06 There was that period w- when Jordan Peterson came back after he'd had, you know, basically two years off from his recovery and all of that stuff. People were excited because they hadn't seen him for ages and-

Zack Telander 13:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:18 ... th- yeah. Absence can sort of make the heart grow fonder, maybe like that. What do you think?

Zack Telander 13:24 Well, I, I like to think about Tool, one of my favorite bands. Um, d- Maynard Keenan being the lead singer, like e- even when, even when they perform, he's in the back. So he's like the only lead singer I've ever seen that goes to the back of the stage. Did you know this?

Chris Williamson 13:40 Behind the drummer?

Zack Telander 13:42 No, it's like kind of to the left or right of the drummer.

Chris Williamson 13:45 But in line with him?

Zack Telander 13:47 Uh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:48 Wow.

Zack Telander 13:48 And, uh, sometimes actually behind the drummer. So, like, Danny Carey, I, I believe... I, I can't quite remember 'cause I, I saw them live. It was probably one of my top three favorite shows I've ever been to. And Danny Carey's more center stage and he has two boxes that he goes to that are to the left and to the right of Danny Carey, and maybe even slightly behind him. So, you can already get that mystique from him, you know? And he was also saying, like, "F- as far as sound goes, it's easier for me, uh, to, to sing and it makes more sense. Just because I'm the singer, it doesn't mean that I should have my back to my band." Um, but, you know, he's the type of guy... Like, that band to me, is so massive, but yet they have, like, almost zero pop culture, uh, what- what's the word I'm, like-

Chris Williamson 14:36 Exposure.

Zack Telander 14:37 Yeah. The- their relevance, right? They're just not relevant in, in pop culture, and yet they can sell out arena after arena after arena after taking a massive break from album to album. And he goes and he takes this money from this tour and he fucks off to Arizona to his winery, and he just... All he focuses on is, is making good wine. And now he's gotten into, like, this, uh, industry of trying to sell his wines to other restaurants in Arizona. He's trying to build, like, this hub. That's what he's passionate about. And I think... I just find it so interesting when your art is that good, that no matter what you do, if you start a tour, people will go crazy for you. And I almost revere that 'cause I'm in the position of the opposite, and I believe you're probably the same, right? Where it's like, if we don't p- if we don't show, poke our heads in-

Chris Williamson 15:31 Feed the beast.

Zack Telander 15:32 Yeah. If we don't feed the beast, we are disappearing. And so, it's almost like the, yeah, the grass is always greener but, um, I, I do respect it. I think it's very, very interesting to talk about.

Chris Williamson 15:42 I also think, especially with Maynard Keenan and Tool, and who's his other one? Per- Perfect Circle, right? That's his other one. Um-

Zack Telander 15:49 Yeah, and Puscifer and... But yeah, Perfect Circle, yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:51 Um, those guys are people that have done the work and got themselves to the very top. Something tells me that when he was first starting out that he wouldn't have been able to be quite so aloof. They were probably play- playing more shows, releasing more records, being more available for doing press-

Zack Telander 16:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:07 ... and for doing stuff like that. This is a conversation I had yesterday (laughs) in the, uh, uh, at the pool party of the W Hotel, like, not the place that I thought I was gonna have a, a great philosophical conversation, but I ended up having a great one with Joshua. And, um, we were talking about the fact that a lot of the time people look to those that are successful and have made it, ask them what their advice is or what the ways that they operate are now, and then try and map that to someone who's not at the same stage of the journey.

Zack Telander 16:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:35 So it's like, look, Maynard Keenan probably nailed shows. He had to learn how to tour, to perform live, to deal with on-stage nerves. Uh, e- everything, right? The logistics, the sound, the quality, ev- all of the s- things that you need to do. You only really get that from iterating on your craft, from doing things over and over and over again. But if you were to ask him now or if you were to try and model his behavior now, you'd go, "Oh, there's this sort of aloof thing that's going on." It's like, bro, no one knows who you are. Like, Maynard Keenan can do that because he's Maynard fucking Keenan.

Zack Telander 17:05 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 17:06 Like, you don't get to do that as starting out band member that nobody has a clue what you do.

Zack Telander 17:13 I, I, I've seen the same thing if you wanna learn how to do something. Like so for instance, uh, in the sport that I'm involved in, Olympic style weightlifting, people look at the elite and they base their training off of what they perceive the elite are doing now, right? And they may not even have an understanding of exactly what the elite w- was doing. They might have a few clips of what they're doing and say, "Oh, they do this. I wanna do that as well." Two of my most successful videos in YouTube history for me, b- both over three million views, are exactly about this thing, is modeling your movements, your behaviors off of the top is actually one of the worst practices you can do, rather than trying to model your behaviors over someone that might be slightly more successful th- than you. Because that's much more c- attainable and that's much more realistic of a, of a direction for you to go, and then you just keep on taking those small leaps. And you make realizations about your process and how you would get better over time, uh, rather than looking at Dmitry Klokov or, uh, Liu Xiaojun, both of, like, the most famous weightlifters on YouTube and on Instagram, and saying, "Oh, they do this. I wanna do that." Well, it's like, you didn't see what they did-

Chris Williamson 18:28 Yeah, do what they did-

Zack Telander 18:30 ... for decades before.

Chris Williamson 18:31 Do what they did when they were at your stage, not when they're at that stage.

Zack Telander 18:35 Exactly, exactly.

Chris Williamson 18:35 I mean, there's that same... We would... I can't remember the example. I think it was Warren Buffett where he talks about how, um-I think it's 60% of Berkshire Hathaway's wealth has come from 10 trades in his life. 10 trades, bro.

Zack Telander 18:50 Wow.

Chris Williamson 18:51 To make more than half of the, uh, gains from Berkshire Hathaway. I mean one of them is Coca-Cola, uh-

Zack Telander 18:57 Yep.

Chris Williamson 18:58 ... and there was this wild story where he worked out the proportion of real estate inside of people's stomachs that Coca-Cola needed to take up in order to be able to get itself to the place that it want, they wanted it to be. Um, so he, you know, he really, really, really researches this thing and he takes forever to make a decision and blah, blah, blah, blah. And you go, well yeah, like that, that's really, really great. But I also seem to remember that he did a ton of businesses when he was in his teenage years. He was, um-

Zack Telander 19:27 Yeah. Yes.

Chris Williamson 19:27 ... selling newspapers and cleaning cars and doing loads of stuff. And you go, okay, like that's what he did when he started out. What are you doing when you're starting out? And I, I, I really think there's something there about mapping the journey, not mapping the, uh, successful strategies of people once they've reached that end destination or that, that sort of pinnacle thing. Uh, speaking of which, monkeypox. Worried about monkeypox?

Zack Telander 19:56 I haven't ... I, I've only seen just like memes.

Chris Williamson 19:59 Monkeypox-

Zack Telander 19:59 That's as far as I'm at. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:00 Monkeypox-

Zack Telander 20:00 I don't know-

Chris Williamson 20:01 ... is real. So monkeypox outbreak is primarily spreading through sex, world health officials say. Uh, European nations have confirmed dozens of cases in what's been the largest outbreak of monkeypox ever on the continent, according to the German military. I don't know why they're involved in this. The US has confirmed at least two cases and Canada has confirmed at least five. So has the Belgium. Belgium has introduced a mandatory 21-day quarantine for monkeypox. If you get monkeypox and COVID, you're fucked. Um, the most recent surge in cases appears to have been spread among men who have had sex with other men. So the first place that this came out of was a sauna in Madrid. So it's obviously, I don't know, a bunch of guys maybe having a bit of fun in the sauna and then one of them is ... I mean I, I want to know. This is always the question. Like who was the person that ate the pangolin or whatever, or the one that escaped from the lab or some shit that got-

Zack Telander 20:54 Yeah, uh, what is it? Zero? Something s-

Chris Williamson 20:55 Yeah. Patient Zero.

Zack Telander 20:56 Patient Zero, yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:57 Yeah. I wanna know who ... I wanna know how monkeypox come ... 'Cause it's not interesting once it's-

Zack Telander 21:01 Are you sure? Are you sure you wanna know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:04 (laughs) Yeah. I kind of-

Zack Telander 21:04 Are you sure?

Chris Williamson 21:05 I kind of do. I don't wanna see it graphically. Definitely not.

Zack Telander 21:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:08 But I do ki- ... I'm pretty, pretty intrigued. But yeah, so vaccines are available. Um, but it's, it's just fascinating that you're talking about how many cases there are in Europe and then there's this. Uh, it's, it's a sexually transmitted, a new sexually transmitted infection. While the virus itself is not a sexually transmitted infection, uh, which are generally spread through semen and vaginal fluids, the most recent surge in cases appears to have been spread amongst men who have had sex with other men. Uh, emphasizing that anyone can contract monkeypox. Many diseases can be spread through sexual contact. You can get a cough or a cold through sexual contact. (laughs) But it doesn't mean it's a sexually transmitted disease. Okay, so that's interesting. So it's not actually an STI, but it's just, it's just one of the ways that you can, that you can contract it. But yet now this is the new, this is the new current thing that everybody needs to be concerned about.

Zack Telander 22:00 Okay. Well, clarify that for me because d- uh, maybe I'm just an idiot and didn't understand that. Can you get it fr- if you are not sexually active with other men or sexually active at all? Can you get monkeypox?

Chris Williamson 22:13 Yes.

Zack Telander 22:17 Okay. All right. So it's a chicken pox. It's a, it's a, it's now a virus. Are ... Is there a potential for a cure or are we looking at another epidemic or-

Chris Williamson 22:30 They've already got a vaccine. They've already got a vaccine. There's a vaccine that already exists for it.

Zack Telander 22:33 Oh, okay.

Chris Williamson 22:35 Um, monkeypox is a disease caused by a virus in the same family as smallpox, but not as severe. Monkeypox can kill as many as one in 10. The vaccine used to prevent smallpox appears to have an 85% effectivity rate guarding against monkeypox in observational data and research in Africa, world health officials say. The vaccines aren't widely available, so it's important to reserve them for populations that are most at risk. What does that mean? What does most at risk mean? Like the people that are just like the m- the biggest players? Like the ones that are able to slay?

Zack Telander 23:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:03 Like, "Hey, hey, who's the-"

Zack Telander 23:05 "Hey, look."

Chris Williamson 23:06 "... who's the Chad in this city? Come over here. We gotta inoculate you."

Zack Telander 23:10 Like you ... (laughs) Yeah. I gotta head to a CVS man, get, get myself a vaccine real quick because, uh, I've been getting a lot of action.

Chris Williamson 23:17 Your boy fucks, that's why.

Zack Telander 23:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:18 'Cause your boy fucks. Uh, I don't think that it's going to be an uncontrolled spread in the same way that we've tolerated-

Zack Telander 23:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:25 ... the COVID-19 epidemic. Uh, but there is a possibility that this has gotten into the community if in fact it's more pervasive than we're measuring right now. That becomes hard to snuff out. And they were concerned that this summer, because of all of the different festivals and stuff that were going on, uh, that people were just gonna be spraying the monkeypox everywhere.

Zack Telander 23:45 Yeah. They're just gonna be going everywhere.

Chris Williamson 23:47 (laughs)

Zack Telander 23:47 Spreading that, spreading that pox. (laughs) Did you get chickenpox?

Chris Williamson 23:54 Yeah. Yeah, I've had it. Did you?

Zack Telander 23:56 So yeah, so I had it. So there's something about the dormant, uh, what's ... I, I don't know what the, um, the virus is actually called. Uh, but it's like it stays dormant in you and then it can, like it can wake up, I guess, um, and you get sh-

Chris Williamson 24:10 Is that not what shingles is? Is that not what happens?

Zack Telander 24:12 Yes. Yes.

Chris Williamson 24:12 Yeah. But I thought that, I thought that shingles was adult chickenpox. So if you hadn't had it as a kid and you don't have immunity-

Zack Telander 24:18 Ooh.

Chris Williamson 24:19 I'm pretty sure that that's what it is. 'Cause it's kind of dangerous to not have had chickenpox as a kid.

Zack Telander 24:25 Yes. No, I think, I think e- either one. So it, it's, it's pretty much dormant for the rest of your life. Certain circumstances can make it, you know, wake up and then you get shingles. But I don't know ... Dude, monkeypox just ... I mean, s- sorry, it sounds funny.

Chris Williamson 24:42 Well isn't it-

Zack Telander 24:43 It sounds funny 'cause, 'cause I don't know.

Chris Williamson 24:43 It's so, it's so weird 'cause like chickenpox, we, we've just accepted that as, "Oh, that's just the name of it." Monkeypox-Oh, the, uh, r- what a ridiculous name.

Zack Telander 24:52 (laughs) It's true. It's true.

Chris Williamson 24:53 How dare you put an animal in front of the word pucks?

Zack Telander 24:55 We're just not used to it.

Chris Williamson 24:55 Yeah, exactly. It's a, it's a new one. Uh, Johnny Depp trial. Man, have you been watching any of this?

Zack Telander 25:00 Uh, mainly again ... Dude, this is, this is so pathetic because I feel like all of my answers, "Oh, have you heard about this?" It's like, oh, either I heard of it through a meme or I saw a 25-second

Zack Telander 25:10 clip to maybe a three-minute clip on, uh, Instagram or, uh, TikTok. Maybe I am just one of the, the herd, if you will.

Chris Williamson 25:17 You do know that that's how, that's-

Zack Telander 25:19 Pun, pun intended right there.

Chris Williamson 25:20 That is how most people get their news. Now in fact-

Zack Telander 25:23 Right. But I, I-

Chris Williamson 25:23 ... it probably makes you better informed than most people.

Zack Telander 25:27 Yeah, okay. Well, you know, I, I like to consider myself, you know, above.

Chris Williamson 25:32 A connoisseur.

Zack Telander 25:32 A cut above.

Chris Williamson 25:33 A connoisseur, yeah.

Zack Telander 25:34 Yeah. So, so, oh, w- yeah. What I've seen is ... Actually, I somewhat loosely followed the Heard/Depp controversy for a while. Um, I know I heard, like, some horror stories earlier on. And then, as far as the trial goes, I've, again, just seen clips, like the clip of Amber Heard supposedly snorting cocaine during-

Chris Williamson 25:54 (laughs)

Zack Telander 25:55 Um, which is, you know, maybe she was doing that, maybe not. The, uh, fact that she, uh, took a shit in her own bed but it was on Johnny's side, um-

Chris Williamson 26:04 That'll teach him.

Zack Telander 26:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:06 (laughs) That'll teach him.

Zack Telander 26:08 Chris D'Elia had a-

Chris Williamson 26:09 She was defecating, defecating in my bed.

Zack Telander 26:09 ... had a, had a great bit on that. Chris D'Elia's like, "Hey, don't shit in your bed."

Chris Williamson 26:16 (laughs)

Zack Telander 26:16 "Your own bed." The funny thing, like, I just wanna know, like, what position she was in. Like, was she, was she squatting over the bed, like her feet were on the floor? Or was she on the bed squatting?

Chris Williamson 26:30 You've gotta be-

Zack Telander 26:30 Maybe she was holding onto the backboard?

Chris Williamson 26:32 You've gotta be on the, you've gotta be on the bed in full squat. That's the only way to do it.

Zack Telander 26:36 Okay. So, so what? So she's an experienced third world squatter? 'Cause that's not an easy task. If you've never shit-

Chris Williamson 26:42 She's got good mobility.

Zack Telander 26:43 ... in a, in a third-

Chris Williamson 26:44 Maybe she should consider transitioning to the sport of Olympic weightlifting if she can get herself all the way down to the bottom of a squat.

Zack Telander 26:50 Yeah. Honestly, her mobility is good enough now to, to work with her. I'll, I will DM her-

Chris Williamson 26:56 (laughs)

Zack Telander 26:57 ... and see if I can start working with her on her snaps and cleaning jerk technique.

Chris Williamson 27:00 Amber, look, I know that you've got, I know that you've got some bigger fish to fry at the moment. But once you've completed this court case-

Zack Telander 27:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:06 ... have you ever considered entering into the sport of Olympic weightlifting? Uh, Ms. Heard, this could be your journey back into it because, I'm not sure if you're aware, there is 4.5 million signatures on change.org to get Amber Heard replaced in Aquaman 2.

Zack Telander 27:26 Really?

Chris Williamson 27:27 Dude, nearly five-

Zack Telander 27:28 4.5?

Chris Williamson 27:29 Nearly five million people. I think if it breaks ... It's already one of the top, uh, petitions-

Zack Telander 27:36 Petitions.

Chris Williamson 27:36 ... changes ever, right? And I'm, I don't know what the title is. In fact, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work this out. What is the most petitioned change.org... (keyboard clacking)

Zack Telander 27:48 But to, to, you know, Ms. Heard, look. I just realized that in order to have shit on your own bed-

Chris Williamson 27:53 Oh, fuck. It was jus- sorry, sorry. It was justice for George Floyd, perhaps unsurprisingly at 19.

Zack Telander 27:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:58 But that was 19 million people. Dude, one-quarter of the number of people that wanted justice for George Floyd want Amber Heard to be (laughs) removed from Aquaman 2. (laughs) Oh my god. Come on, world.

Zack Telander 28:15 Yeah. Uh, Ms. Heard, I realize that in order to shit in your own bed-

Chris Williamson 28:20 (laughs)

Zack Telander 28:21 ... uh, you would have to have the mobility to, you know, stand on a relatively unstable platform, mind you, uh, and, and squat in what we would consider a deep squat position, something that's very optimal for the sport of Olympic weightlifting, uh, in order to defecate on your own bed. So given that information, you have the prerequisite to be a v- a very fine athlete. Um, how would you mind coaching from me? Uh, we'll take you to the top of this sport.

Chris Williamson 28:49 Ms. Heard-

Zack Telander 28:50 May- maybe even the Olympics.

Chris Williamson 28:50 ... if you are listening, if you are listening, we got it.

Zack Telander 28:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:53 But dude, uh, uh, l- here's another thing as well.

Zack Telander 28:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:55 Th- this has happened before that people want ... Because it takes so long to film a movie and then to edit a movie and then to publici- m- publicize a movie. It's like, do you realize how much work it would be to replace Amber Heard shot-for-shot in a movie that's already been filmed? What do you wanna do?

Zack Telander 29:13 They did that wi- they did that with Chris D'Elia.

Chris Williamson 29:17 Well yeah, but he wasn't one of the central characters. Or was he?

Zack Telander 29:20 True. Yeah, that's true. I, I guess I didn't care enough about Aquaman. Like, again-

Chris Williamson 29:25 Me neither.

Zack Telander 29:26 ... bringing up Chris D'Elia, this is a Chris D'Elia one (laughs) . This is a great bit. He go- someone's like, "Hey man, I watched Aquaman." And, and my response is, "What plane did you take?"

Chris Williamson 29:37 (laughs)

Zack Telander 29:38 "'Cause you only watch Aquaman on the plane." And that's actually how I feel about it. It's like, I don't really care about it that much. I had no idea that Amber Heard was in it.

Chris Williamson 29:45 Yeah.

Zack Telander 29:46 Because, 'cause to me, it's, it, it's, you know-

Chris Williamson 29:49 Me neither.

Zack Telander 29:49 It's not a movie that takes up my-

Chris Williamson 29:51 There's a bit in the, um, there's a bit in the trial where Johnny Depp suggests that the only reason that Amber Heard got the role was because of him. So the, the prosecution, uh, the other attorney is saying to him, "You didn't want Amber Heard to do any movies, did you? You didn't want her to go out and have meetings, did you?" And Johnny's like, "No. I didn't say that at all. I mean, how do you think she got the role for Aquaman? Of course I'm supporting her." And you're like, "Oh, fuck." (laughs) So he's suggesting basically that the only way she got it was through that. And, uh, yeah, dude. I- it's, this whole thing is wild. Think about the fact that they're both constantly recording each other. Think about that. That there's al- always recordings of each of them talking about stuff. "Can we please bring up evidence number 32217?" You know, like, okay. Where's this come from? Oh, it's one of them recording the other one like some secret agent shit.

Zack Telander 30:44 Oh wait, audi- like audio recording?

Chris Williamson 30:46 Yes. Throughout the whole-

Zack Telander 30:48 So they-

Chris Williamson 30:48 ... trial. All of the-

Zack Telander 30:50 So they knew, knew this was coming?

Chris Williamson 30:53 ... n- I don't know why they were recording each other. That's my question. Like what is it? What is-

Zack Telander 30:56 That's, you know ... No, look, look, this is it. It's a, it's, you know, when you get into some sort of a toxic relationship, it, it's more important to show burden of proof of the other person's wrongdoings later on. You know, it-

Chris Williamson 31:09 Really? I mean if Johnny Depp-

Zack Telander 31:09 If you get into-

Chris Williamson 31:10 ... was supposed to be off his face all the time, I don't know whether he's got that. I, I don't know what they were doing it for. Maybe it was in case there's a court case. But there's recordings from 2015 and shit.

Zack Telander 31:20 Yeah, I mean, wh- when, I don't ... Dude, people change when they get into really, really bad relationships. They do. They do things that they can't even ra- ... I mean, I've been in bad relationships and I've done things where I'm like, "That is not who I am." Like, you know, raised my voice, like ... Something like recording someone else to, to then garner some sort of, uh, advantage-

Chris Williamson 31:43 Leverage.

Zack Telander 31:43 ... on them later on, that's absolutely possible, especially from someone who's not the manipulated one. It's like, "Oh, well this is the standard that we've set for this relationship."

Chris Williamson 31:55 Yes.

Zack Telander 31:55 You know? It's like-

Chris Williamson 31:56 Yeah.

Zack Telander 31:56 ... I can go sneak and look on your phone because that's just what we do now. I can yell as loud as I can at you because we've done it once, we've done it a couple of times, we can-

Chris Williamson 32:05 Yeah.

Zack Telander 32:05 ... all do these things. I, I really think like that's the mark of the worst possible relationship is saving issues so that later on you can use them as ammo.

Chris Williamson 32:15 Agreed. Yeah, I mean, uh, you're also seeing now what happens behind the doors of people that ... Johnny Depp seems to have come out of this, uh, he, he's super charming, he seems like a really sweet guy. Amber Heard seems super manipulative, uh, but you can't say that it's a healthy relationship from either side. Uh, this isn't, this isn't a very nice relationship, or a good relationship to be in. But, you're right, what happens when someone does something, when there's a first mover and you begin to think, "Oh, well this is the tone of the relationship that's been set now. Okay, so she did this, so I'm gonna do that, and then I'm gonna keep this one in my back pocket in case she brings up a different thing and then we can start-"

Zack Telander 32:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 32:54 That tit for tat game, I did a video about Sam Harris ages ago about how I thought that this was-

Zack Telander 32:58 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 32:58 ... a, this was a big deal that you have this sort of ever-in- increasing intensity spiral of tit for tat, and worse, for worse, for worse, for worse. And that's how relationships end up, like tons of relationships I've been in end up like that. But y- it's just what happens when you see people who are super, super highly strung. Johnny, it sounds like, was on a, a good bit of drugs and, uh, all sorts of different other, uh, addictions and shit that he had too, and he was falling asleep by the side of the bed and doing all sorts of things. (inhales deeply) You go, "Well, when you layer all of this together with some ego and a $300 million net worth," what do you expect?

Zack Telander 33:38 Shit's gonna hit the fan.

Chris Williamson 33:39 Yeah.

Zack Telander 33:39 Or the bed. (snaps fingers)

Chris Williamson 33:40 Or the bed. Yes! Nailed it. Um, also, Kate Moss is giving evidence this week, and Amber Heard apparently was dating Elon Musk at one point, and then there was another time that James Franco came round to the house. It's a, just a litany of, I don't know, weird famous people that are getting drawn in. It's like, "Oh, what do we, what do we think? Why don't we get Pamela Anderson in? Pamela, what do you think about this? We'll get you in as an expert witness for this particular case." People that I didn't think would have anything to do with it, but apparently they do.

Zack Telander 34:12 Yeah, well, you know, like, it's just the ... I love the take that I see, it's, uh, it's on so many comments, it's like Hollywood is not real. These people are egotistical narcissists, and no one really cares what they do. It's almost like we watch to, uh, see the demise of it, you know? Um, but there's always someone who's like, "Why do we give a shit about the Hollywood elites? They're not real. They're the scariest people on Earth because they're, they're like, they're just represented ... They're just, all, everything they do is character- caricature of something."

Chris Williamson 34:46 Yeah. Well I think-

Zack Telander 34:47 Right? And-

Chris Williamson 34:47 ... I would, I would go, I would probably say that what I've seen, at least of Johnny Depp, either Johnny is one of the finest actors that's ever graced the planet, or that's really the way that he is. He seemed very consistent throughout the trial, like he's super calm-

Zack Telander 35:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:01 ... super chill. But with Amber Heard you do see that real discordance between maybe the person she thinks she's supposed to be, the person that she's playing. All of that was really uncomfortable. And, um, yeah, I don't know, I ... There's this, there's this whole group of people at the moment, um, (smacks lips) who's Machine Gun Kelly seeing at the moment, who's that chick? Thingy Fox? Megan Fox?

Zack Telander 35:23 Jennifer Fox.

Chris Williamson 35:24 Megan Fox.

Zack Telander 35:24 Jennifer (laughs) Megan Fox.

Chris Williamson 35:26 Megan Fox, Jennifer Fox.

Zack Telander 35:27 (laughs) Megan Fox.

Chris Williamson 35:28 Um, so like, they, they were in the news the other week because they were doing blood rituals, like swapping blood.

Zack Telander 35:33 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 35:34 Um-

Zack Telander 35:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:35 ... I, I'm pretty sure that Johnny Depp said that they'd done something similar early on in the relationship. And then, dude, it wouldn't surprise me. I'm ... If I could put money down right now, Jared Leto is going to have something come out about him within the next five to 10 years.

Zack Telander 35:53 Oh, yeah. I mean, it already has become that, for sure. They're, um ... The way I was made aware of it was, uh, Phyllion, he's a-

Chris Williamson 36:02 Yep, I saw the same video.

Zack Telander 36:03 ... creator on YouTube. Yeah. So that, that's where I was made aware of it. He is wildly creepy. When they, uh, compile all of these interviews and these weird things he said and ... Yeah, I would not be surprised either. That's a great call. That's ... I, I, I would give you, you know, big odds-

Chris Williamson 36:23 Shitty odds.

Zack Telander 36:23 ... just about.

Chris Williamson 36:24 (laughs) Yeah. I, uh ...

Zack Telander 36:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:26 I don't know, man. There is something about this that just makes me think ... But then you also think about the fact that the, uh, who was Epstein's enabler, who was the chick that he did that with? Uh, Ghislaine Maxwell. Ghislaine Maxwell case, not publicized at all, no, uh, daily trial, no video, none of that. Johnny Depp and Amber Heard, it literally is just like-

Zack Telander 36:50 All of this-

Chris Williamson 36:50 ... someone waving the big red flag, like, "Look at this, look at this. Don't look over here, don't look over here, not allowed to look over here."

Zack Telander 36:57 That stuff pisses me off so much, man. It really, really does, like the, just the silencing of things that can damage and hurt people that aren't in Hollywood but are in majorly powerful positions, not just in the US but, you know, worldwide being the economy that we are, the- the powerhouse economy. It's, that- that stuff is ridiculous. When you start getting- going down that rabbit hole, it's just only frustration from- from there on out.

Chris Williamson 37:25 Do you know what's really frustrating as well is, the, how quickly the internet seems to pivot from, uh, #MeToo to #MenToo. That- that- that now, I understand that Men

Chris Williamson 37:37 Too is a response to the Me Too being over, like, potentially overblown in some people's eyes and that the Amber Heard, Johnny Depp trial is, look, men can be the victims of DV as well, they can be the people that are being socially manipulated, psychologically manipulated, they can be hurt. He nearly had his finger chopped off when she threw a vodka bottle at him. But, it doesn't add in ... What people haven't realized is, look, that particular style of thinking, believe all women, was maybe a little bit too low resolution, right? As has been shown in this case in front of us. Doing the opposite doesn't suggest that it's any better.

Zack Telander 38:13 Yeah. It-

Chris Williamson 38:13 Like, that's just as low resolution thinking.

Zack Telander 38:16 But see that, is this not just how everything in the world works? You can't just go, "Absolutely, this is the team. Absolutely, this is the team," and just let the pendulum swing back and forth. I- I love to call, like-

Chris Williamson 38:29 Those are the only two options.

Zack Telander 38:30 Yeah, like- like, uh, foam finger holding, that's what I call it. You know, the people that go to the game and they just go, "Woo, that's my team! The- the liberals, the democrats," or, you know, "the republicans, conservatives." Like, "That's my team, I root for them no matter what." Um, yeah, and the, and the pendulum swinging is just nauseating. You know, um, I saw this movie, Men, yesterday.

Chris Williamson 38:52 Was it any good?

Zack Telander 38:52 Uh, (sighs) I- I- I don't know. Uh, it was by, uh, it was by Alex Garland who made Ex Machina and, um, uh, Annihilation, two of, like, movies that I really like. It was pretty good, it was, you know, uh, thrilling, but the story behind it or- or what it was mentioning was, you know, all, the faults of men that aren't being taken by men. You know, so it's- it's more along the lines of the Me Too movement. It's like, um, there are characters in it that treat the main character like every, uh, you know, patriarchal trope.

Chris Williamson 39:34 Yep.

Zack Telander 39:34 Like, the nice guy, you know the nice guy trope? There's like, the gaslighter, there's like, the sexual worshiper, and it's very obvious in that way. And the funniest thing is I'm watching this and from my perspective, I could see seven different characters of females, because I've been in situations where the opposite has happened to me. Right? So, it does not, it's not, "Oh, believe all men, believe all women." It's like, believe some men, believe some women, but you know, like, or don't believe any of them until they prove themselves, or how about this? Things are not a storyline. Things will always remain gray. The best stories, I, are actually, the best movies are the ones that are like, this must be the good character, right? This must be the good guy. This must be the bad guy. And then all of a sudden you're like, wait, the bad guy, I kind of understand why he did that. Oh, the good guy, like, why is he doing that shitty thing? You know? It's like, those are the best, the ones where you question the characters and in doing so, you question yourself, and I- I've always found that sort of thing fascinating but it's infuriating, like you said, to just see the pendulum go from one side to the other. I see it on every social media platform.

Chris Williamson 40:45 But it's easier, right? It's easier to have low resolution thinking. All that you need to do is go, "Well, here is a one-size-fits-all answer." You see this in the red pill community as well. They've got their answers for what- what it is that women are after. You go, "Well, I don't know, man. Like, that doesn't fit with my experience of women in the real world." And maybe I just happen to have managed to live 34 years and have a really unrepresentative experience or maybe there's something about me that's selecting for a different type of- o- o- of people that I speak with, but I've met a million people stood in the front door of night clubs. That's a pretty big sample size.

Zack Telander 41:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:18 Met a lot of women, right? Working in night life.

Zack Telander 41:21 Yes.

Chris Williamson 41:21 And they- they would be the ones that would be thrown under the bus as, "Oh, well, they're the most club bratty, hoe-y, uh, low moral girls that you're gonna find." I'm like, "Well, didn't seem that way to me." So ...

Zack Telander 41:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:34 What- what do you th- ... But, no, no, no, no, it's significantly easier to just have a one-size-fits-all answer because you never ever have to question your assumptions again.

Zack Telander 41:43 Yeah, and um, I, the- the boys verse girls, girls- girls verse boys on TikTok, Instagram, you know, anything, is just incessant. It is non-stop. It is, you know, it's- it's a always a- a one-size-fits-all thing, and what- what's problematic is if you do it, if you disguise these things, these- these binary understandings of- of, you know, left, right, whatever. If- if you disguise it with memes and with clever, funny, and timing, it's all about timing, doing it first and being funny or it's all about being contrarian. If you disguise all of those things and someone calls you out and says, "Hey, man, what about this gray area?" You go, "Oh, it was just a joke, dude. Take it easy." You know, are you really gonna say that all men aren't bad at a time like this? It's like, well, why can't I? You know? Or- or vice versa. Not all women are bad at a time, you know, when- when something comes up. So, I- I always think that that- that happens and it's just so prevalent in social media. It's like, you really gotta cut through all of that.

Chris Williamson 42:52 Well, you gotta think, um, certainty and black and white thinking and a pithy, well-rounded, snappy tagline sounds a lot like...... wisdom and insight and understanding. Like that's a good proxy for those things. It's not those things, but it sounds like what someone that actually knew what they were talking about would say. And I think that that's one of the reasons that it catches fire online, because a platform like Twitter or TikTok specifically isn't built to have longer form discussions. It's built to optimize for pithiness, right?

Zack Telander 43:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:26 It's built to be optimized for shortness. So what you end up with is not necessarily the argument which is the most right, it's the one that is the most believable or sounds the most right. And that gets, uh, filtered through all sorts of things. People use fluency as a proxy for truthfulness, so that's why the people that have great delivery, presidents that have amazing... "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Like Bill Clinton got away with all sorts because he had fucking great delivery. So okay, how do you sort of pull these things apart? And yet you have an entire internet of people that are able, they have way too much spare time, but people still get seduced by the same things.

Zack Telander 44:07 Do you feel like the internet has evolved into this thing where it's all about relatable, it's all about, "Oh, ha ha," like, "My face when..." You know, like, "My face when this happens." Or like, I feel like almost all of TikTok is, is relating a life experience to other people. And maybe that's how things have always been, but it's meme and meta culture has literally taken almost every single aspect of the internet at this point.

Chris Williamson 44:39 You're the expert on TikTok, man. Uh, that is one of the things I'm so glad-

Zack Telander 44:43 I'm not-

Chris Williamson 44:44 ... that I didn't, I haven't developed that compulsion. You know, of all of the other addictions-

Zack Telander 44:51 Well, look, I-

Chris Williamson 44:51 ... online that I've got, I'm so glad that TikTok wasn't one of them.

Zack Telander 44:55 I'm slowing down for sure. I'm definitely slowing down. Um, it was definitely really intriguing at first. But I always observe it through a critical lens. Like I'm always criticizing whatever the idea is. But the girls versus boys, boys versus girls thing, there's problems on either side of that debate and what I'm able to do when I look at TikTok is observe the comments, see where I disagree, decide what I, you know, rather than a lot of people, it's just confirmation bias, right? It's just, "Oh, I believe that thing. They did a really funny video, uh, that was quirky and, and it timed up really nicely with my life. Let me just repost it to my Instagram story really quickly." Okay, that, I believe that things like that, uh, can eventually do more harm than good. And that's not why I use TikTok. I just use it to just observe and, and see what's going on in the internet. There are some really funny just stupid comedy viral videos still, so I'm always down to watch stuff like that. But it is a good platform for observation. Twitter, on the other hand, is something that I don't think I could ever get into.

Chris Williamson 46:05 Interesting. I, I-

Zack Telander 46:06 I don't even know if I really tried.

Chris Williamson 46:08 Yeah, I quite like Twitter. Uh, speaking of which, I got sent this thread by Rob Henderson earlier on, which is really interesting. Could the matching imbalance on Tinder and other dating apps be a factor in the rise of the incel movement

Chris Williamson 46:19 and young men reporting low sexual activity? So there's a graph here that says the, uh, young men, uh, share of men and women between the ages of 18 and 30 reporting no sex in the past year, and that has gone up from 10% to 30% for men since around about 2010 to 2020, to now, right? So over the last decade, the number of men reporting no sex in the last year has tripled. And the, uh, line on the graph has got where Tinder is introduced and it is exactly when men, uh, where that, that inflection for men beginning to go from the 10% to the twe- 28%. Women also actually, um, stay flat for a little while, but have increased, which is also very interesting. Um, wealth in Tinder is not distributed equally. Attractive guys have more wealth in the Tinder economy. They get more likes than unattractive guys. That's the bottom 80% of men, bottom 20% of women, top 80% of women, top 20% of men thing, which a lot of people are familiar with. Um, there's a thing called a Gini coefficient or a Gini coefficient, um, which works out how much inefficiency there is within a system. So it's used to look at, uh, economies within countries, uh, and the lower that the number is, the, um, more, uh, equality there is, uh, within wealth distribution. So if modern dating apps were a country, it would be one of the most unequal in the world. The Tinder economy has a higher Gini coefficient than 95.1% of the countries in the world. It's just below South Africa. It's above Venice-

Zack Telander 47:56 In disparity-

Chris Williamson 47:57 Yeah.

Zack Telander 47:57 ... of wealth?

Chris Williamson 47:58 Yeah.

Zack Telander 47:58 Uh...

Chris Williamson 47:58 It's above Venezuela and just below South Africa. That's where it sits. Uh, according to open source data, a man of average attractiveness can only be expected to be liked by slightly less than 1% of females, 0.87% on Tinder. This equates to one like for every 115 females, and men in the bottom 10% see just one match per week at most. Ultimately, most women only swipe on a handful of men per day, while men are more freewheeling with their swipes. So yeah, men, females pass on 95% and like on five, and men are basically 50/50 left and right. Um, it's just, it-

Zack Telander 48:36 So we, we, we had talked about Tinder before, and one thing that I think is actually really interesting was before Tinder, it, there were websites like eHarmony, you remember that?

Chris Williamson 48:49 Match.com.

Zack Telander 48:49 And, um, match.com.

Chris Williamson 48:51 Plenty of Fish.

Zack Telander 48:52 And the way that, the way that we looked at it, you know, the, the guys in my friend group, the people my age, we looked at it as like, "Oh, what a weird fucking idea." Online dating, super weird, you're a weir-... Like it's, it was just kind of like, "What the hell?" And then here's Tinder, this fun little swipy thing. It's kind of about hookups. It's everyone... It's a meme.Right? It's, it's a, it's a, it's like a meta-commentary. It's just like, "This is hilarious." We're, we're swiping, it's hilarious, we match. "Oh, what's up?" Like... And then almost immediately after that, online dating becomes something serious. It becomes something like, "Well, I haven't gotten any dates, let me go online." There was really, there's really not much resisting to whether it's cool or not. You can resist whether you wanna do it or, or whether it's legit or not, or, or if the masses are doing it. But if someone says, "Hey, I'm on Hinge," or, "I'm on Tinder," they're not gonna get made fun of because it's just the masses are doing that. Whereas eHarmony and match.com, like, if you had done that at the time where they were very prevalent for, I think, older generations, um, it was definitely seen as a weird thing. That's the thing with-

Chris Williamson 50:04 That's the same as anything though, right? There's adoption, adoption curves happen slowly.

Zack Telander 50:08 But it was still... But it, it wasn't like eHarm- it wasn't like we all jumped on eHarmony. We all jumped on the hookup app that required zero effort.

Chris Williamson 50:16 Oh, there was something about Tinder that made this...

Zack Telander 50:20 The location services was, I think the thing. You are in the same location as that person. Here's a picture of them. Do what you want with it. Rather than this kind of weird, um, almost like Myspacey type of AOL vibe to it, which you would get from eHarmony and match.com.

Chris Williamson 50:40 Yeah.

Zack Telander 50:40 Maybe on the Tinder thing, you get this more, you get this handheld, y- you know, location services, this app on your device that-

Chris Williamson 50:48 Good user experience.

Zack Telander 50:49 ... just separates it. Yes.

Chris Williamson 50:50 Less boomery. Well, why do you think it would be that the introduction of Tinder would increase the number of men reporting no sex? Do you think it's just women... Do you think that it, what this guy's implying in the thread is because of this high inequality that women are sort of wistfully chasing after the eight out of tens and above for guys, and they're not giving any attention to the dudes at the bottom? Because you would have presumed maybe if you hadn't been able to work out what was actually gonna go on, everyone's talking to everyone more. That should facilitate more casual sex for everybody overall. But what it seems has happened is, the gains have been sort of accrued to the very few m- um, super Chads at the top. And then there's this big sexless underclass of men that is now 30% of men reporting no sex within the last year.

Zack Telander 51:38 Yeah, I mean, more matches for the female would mean, uh, you know, why would you take the male that you're less attracted to, right? Like, why would you take the opportunity if you know you can match with more and more and more and more people? You're going to leave out a very large chunk of other people where men apparently do not have that option. So yeah, I mean, it's, they're just chasing after the potential match that they know is more likely going to happen. Maybe if those two people meet... Like, this is also another thing. Women are, a- and men, are now looking at their potential mate through the lens of looks. Whereas before, you might not think someone is attractive until there's some sort of action that makes them attractive. Um, whether that's someone in your class or, uh, you know, someone you go to the gym with or whatever, that interaction is what makes them attractive. And y- then you're looking at someone who, if you saw their Tinder profile or if you saw their Hinge profile, you would not have swiped. So maybe that's occurring less, you know? Potential mates, like, lo- you just had on a, a guest who said that the worst quality to look for for a long term relationship is looks.

Chris Williamson 52:56 Conventional attractiveness. Yeah.

Zack Telander 52:58 And that is, and that is exactly what people are looking at when they get these apps.

Chris Williamson 53:01 Well, I think that this probably explains a big chunk of why relationships are now increasingly short, and this is something that people don't necessarily see. So it's easy to say,

Chris Williamson 53:13 um, there is now a global sexual marketplace. Um, anybody with an Instagram account or a Tinder account can basically be in the entire world's sexual marketplace, right? They can be dating somebody in Guatemala or Bali or Germany or wherever they want. And therefore, that means that people are mate switching more easily because the friction of doing that, uh, is lower and because the number of competitors for whoever your mate is, is significantly higher now, and that women will lily pad from one guy to one guy, from one Chad to one Chad to the next one. Now, the thing that Seth Stephens-Davidowitz said that was really interesting is that the algorithms can predict what you're going to click on unbelievably well. They will be able to predict with, like, insane accuracy whether you'll swipe left or right on someone, and the algorithms can do basically nothing to work out whether or not you'll have long term happiness and whether the relationship will last long term. So, for the people that didn't see the episode, um, the things that are most often used as cues for whether or not someone will swipe right or left are things like height, conventional attractiveness, wealth level, and job, right? Those are some of the, the most common things that are used. These have zero, basically zero correlation with whether or not a relationship is happy long term. Those things were psychological stability, conscientiousness, um, a growth mindset, a bunch of other things, none of which can be displayed on a Tinder profile. I can't tell whether you've got a growth mindset or whether you're, uh, somebody that's psychologically stable.

Zack Telander 54:49 Mentally stable. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:50 Yep, precisely. In fact, you might be able to try and signal precisely that through your looks and then have the complete opposite. You can put window dressing up as much as you want. So my point being that what people are doing now is optimizing for the wrong parameters. People are optimizing for things which are completely arbitrary when it comes to long term relationship happiness. For girls, things like height, I think it's something like 80% of women on Hinge have their height limit set to six foot or above for men. That's...Less than 10%, I want to say, less than 10 or 15% of men in the United States are above six foot, and yet that, and height has zero predictive ability when it comes to looking at long-term relationship happiness. Imagine you saying to me, "Dude, I only date girls who are a size four and a half shoe." I'd be like, "Why? Why?"

Zack Telander 55:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:45 I know that this has no bearing on whether or not you're gonna be happy in this relationship, but you just pick this arbitrary thing because it's become captured by the culture that girls that are size four and a half feet.

Zack Telander 55:55 Do you know what? I, I have a great ... I almost have a, a, a reasoning for that. Having, and this is anecdotal, but I, I feel as though girls hold more of animus towards these dating apps. So that they say, "Look, if I'm gonna get on Hinge, I'm gonna get the best of the best. And if it doesn't work, no problems for me. I don't give a shit. I don't give a shit if I get one match, if I get 10 matches, I don't care. I'm on this thing to not get fucked over, but I, if I'm gonna get someone, they better be tall, they better be good-looking, they better be this, this, and this." Where maybe it's not the, the same approach for men. Right? I, I, I can honestly say that I've heard many, many women just say like, it's almost like the dating app owes them for being on-

Chris Williamson 56:41 Yeah, 'cause they resent the fact that they maybe have to be on there.

Zack Telander 56:43 They resent the idea that they're there, yes.

Chris Williamson 56:46 That's interesting.

Zack Telander 56:47 That's absolute- ... That has to be it, right? I mean, and then men are on there because it's like, "Well, fuck, I haven't gotten laid."

Chris Williamson 56:52 I'm not sure that it has to be. I think that would be a r- a really interesting-

Zack Telander 56:56 Or, or I'm lonely and I wanna mate, or something like that, and, and I really hope this works. You know? I don't think a ... I think it's less likely that a male is going to be on there and be resentful for it.

Chris Williamson 57:06 I don't know, man.

Zack Telander 57:07 You know?

Chris Williamson 57:07 A lot of guys seem to be very resentful of online dating as well now.

Zack Telander 57:10 (laughs) Well, they don't, they don't like it, but I think their approach to it is less of a, "Well, if I don't get the best-looking girl, I don't give a shit."

Chris Williamson 57:18 Oh yeah, well I'll be-

Zack Telander 57:19 You know, the, the-

Chris Williamson 57:20 That's inevitable because of the fact that guys are the, um, they're the protagonists and girls are the gatekeepers, right? That's always the way that it, that it, that it's going to be. It's ... You know what I mean?

Zack Telander 57:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:30 Hinge, Hinge is designed-

Zack Telander 57:32 As far as romantic relationships.

Chris Williamson 57:33 Hinge is designed, the whole, um, novelty around Hinge is that it flips that imbalance on its head, because typically it's the guy that messages first, and on Hinge, it has to be the other way around, I think.

Zack Telander 57:44 No, that's Bum- that's Bumble.

Chris Williamson 57:45 Sorry, yeah.

Zack Telander 57:46 Bumble is ... Bumble, yes, Bumble is the one-

Chris Williamson 57:48 But you know what I mean. That's the one I meant.

Zack Telander 57:50 Right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:51 Where you go, well, the power dynamic's being shifted because, for precisely this reason, because to avoid girls from having too many incoming messages from guys that they, whatever, like erroneously, accidentally swiped right on, or some shit. But yeah, man, it's um, it's really interesting. I, I, I just don't feel very positive, I think, about the world of online dating at the moment. I just don't see it getting any better.

Zack Telander 58:16 No.

Chris Williamson 58:16 You know, I even had Logan Ury. I had Hinge's director of relationship science on. So, she's the lady that's in charge of looking at how the apps facilitate relationships long-term, and she had some great points to put across. She's very keen into intentional dating, being deliberate with, "What am I looking for? Why is it..." so on and so forth. But the apps simply can't get around the fact that people tend to optimize for the wrong parameters now. They tend to optimize for stuff that doesn't have any predictive power. And how would you create an app that was able to gauge someone's growth mindset or their psychological stability?

Zack Telander 58:53 So, so did you see the Black Mirror episode?

Chris Williamson 58:56 No.

Zack Telander 58:56 Um, where ... Okay, so this is fantastic. They, basically it's two people that go to this, this, or this camp thing, or whatever it is. And, um, what the, what happens is the algorithm, or the, the machine pairs you up with someone, and then based off of your date, they determine how long you are to spend with that person. And sometimes it says, "You will be with this person for the next six months. You will be with this person for the next six years. You will be with this person for the next 12 hours. And at the end of it, you absolutely must change partners." And, um, I'm spoiling it, so I don't care. It's been out for like seven years-

Chris Williamson 59:35 Yes.

Zack Telander 59:36 ... and it's an episode of Black Mirror. And what happens is, this guy ends up falling in love, and then they say, "You are only to be together for like the next four months." Or something like that. I can't, I don't know the exact thing. And if you break the rules, like you, you are not allowed to break the rules. It's kind of like this sci-fi feeling to it. Um, and then what happens is they have to break up, and he says, "Fuck the rules, fuck all this. We're gonna escape together." And so he grabs her and they make this big runaway from the camp or whatever, and then they climb this big wall, and then everything just dematerializes around them. And what they realize is, or what you realize at the end, is that they were just a couple of AIs that were running through a machine to see if two couples in real life, not in this AI world that they created, were meant to be together. They, they went over all of the things that, the intangibles that can't be done in an app. So this is, this would be something that you would have to do. You'd have to create a very scalable AI version of other people and be able to match them and put them through the real test, the longing for one another when they can't be together. Like put them through the real test and if they f- and if it ends up working out in that little AI world, you'll say, "This person is a 97.1% match," so on and so forth.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 You wanna do-

Zack Telander 1:00:57 That would be the only way to do that.

Chris Williamson 1:00:59 Simulated Tinder?

Zack Telander 1:01:01 It would be, yeah. But the problem is that you, you know, you have the- these AI-

Chris Williamson 1:01:06 Yeah.

Zack Telander 1:01:06 ... they live these conscious lives only to, to uh, fulfill our needs to, to find the right mate. But I, I would- I mean, you're right. It's, we ... As of right now, we can only look at these simple ass metrics that really aren't that important. It's usually just what they look like. Like you said, their height.... physical attractiveness-

Chris Williamson 1:01:26 And what they can write in a bio.

Zack Telander 1:01:28 ... job, and what they can write in a bio. Is it clever enough to make me giggle? Can they break the ice right when they message me? All shit that doesn't matter two years into a relationship and you gotta figure out who's gonna, you know, take care of certain things around the house and all these things. None of that shit matters.

Chris Williamson 1:01:44 Yeah. Or it's a pandemic.

Zack Telander 1:01:45 But I don't know how they can strip it-

Chris Williamson 1:01:46 It's a pandemic and you, you need to work out how you two are going to deal with being apart from each other or living in a house together with each other. Like, going back and looking at someone's Tinder profile and comparing that with the-

Zack Telander 1:01:58 What you know now.

Chris Williamson 1:01:59 ... experience. Yeah, precisely.

Zack Telander 1:02:00 Oh my God.

Chris Williamson 1:02:01 Yeah. And it is, it is so bizarre when you think about it. You're like, it's all window dressing and none of these things that you're looking at in the window are actually things that matter for long term happiness. Conventional attractiveness has zero predictive power for long term relationship success. Like, what the fuck? What the fuck?

Zack Telander 1:02:20 It doesn't matter how loudly you say that. It doesn't matter how loudly or how many times you say that. I'm pretty sure it's been said many times before and it's only getting more and more imp- important.

Chris Williamson 1:02:30 Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And also, there's like, the, on both sides of the fence here, like, it's increasingly, for all the, the, sort of, body positivity movement and that Sports Illustrated cover has come out and this is what fitness looks like from self.com and the future of healthiness or whatever it was on Cosmopolitan, for all of that, like, I don't really see anybody on the apps actually changing their personal preferences. It's like, oh, okay, so you're happy to share this front cover on your Twitter account and yet you're still swiping left and right on exactly the same people when it comes to your own personal preferences.

Zack Telander 1:03:10 Yeah. Be careful what you say, Chris (laughs) 'Cause, uh, you're spitting facts and, uh, it is very funny. It's like, oh, you, you really are accepting of all body types but when it comes to dating apps, all of a sudden, uh, you don't want

Zack Telander 1:03:22 any part in that? Um, but yeah, I mean, look, this is really funny 'cause I just saw this today, it's Tim Dillon, um, basically he, he's saying it doesn't matter the organization, they don't... When they grow to have enough power and enough, um, eyes on them, they can never care about you as an individual. And, you know, those people that are putting out, um, you know, the this is beautiful and, and all these virtue signaling things, it's like, if you are truly about that cause, give all your money to charity. If you are truly, or, or show, you know, you, they just utilize it purely as something that would drive clicks, that will... You know, Jordan Peterson did more for that Sports Illustrated (laughs) magazine-

Chris Williamson 1:04:10 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:04:10 ... than anyone else could've.

Chris Williamson 1:04:11 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:04:12 They... Dude, the CEO or, or the editor in chief for Sports Illustrated should go and thank Jordan Peterson. They probably haven't had that many clicks in ages. For fuck's sake, I clicked on it. I was like, "Whoa. Oh shit, the, the, the s- the swimsuit edition is out? Let's see what go- what's going on here." I wanna see who the woman is that he thinks is, is not attractive. Of course I'm gonna do that, you know?

Chris Williamson 1:04:39 It is, it-

Zack Telander 1:04:39 So-

Chris Williamson 1:04:40 It is. You, you're so right, man. Like, they must be split testing what gets the most clicks for this. The fashion companies that are using plus size models, you'll notice that they never use skinny fat guys. So they'll have normal dudes... Oh my God, did you see this the other day? So it was so funny, one of my guys, one of my guy mates tweeted this from the UK about how it was, um, different types of underwear. One was for men and one was for women, and the women was women of all sizes, and (laughs) the dudes were shredded out of existence. And it was just like a comparison of the women's underwear and the guy's underwear and all of the guys were absolutely ripped.

Zack Telander 1:05:23 Bro, that, that kind of sucks, dude. That kind of sucks. Like, look, I, I guess maybe it's not masculine of me but to, to have that be the standard for men and to not be like, "Hey, it's accepting. It's acceptable for a man to do that." Because, hey, look, like, um, someone, you know, said this the other day and, and it was a woman, she said like, "You know, I, I sometimes misinterpret this... We can give as much shit as we want to men because they're men." You know, it's like we misinterpret it, it's like they should be able to handle that. M- you know, we have looked at a society where, you know, we look at through, through the lens of the "patriarchy" and so we-

Chris Williamson 1:06:05 Dude, I've just put it in the chat.

Zack Telander 1:06:05 Oh, you just sent-

Chris Williamson 1:06:06 Have a, have a, have a look at this thing.

Zack Telander 1:06:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:08 So have a look at the difference between... It's Maya and the women's (laughs) , the women's lingerie and the guy's lingerie.

Zack Telander 1:06:15 Holy shit, wait, this is the exact same... Is this the same page or did they cut it?

Chris Williamson 1:06:19 No, this is the same page.

Zack Telander 1:06:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:28 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:06:28 You know what? What does that fucking say, man? What does it say to, to men? It's like, "Oh yeah, like, you guys don't need to be babied at all ever. You don't need compliments. You, you know... Oh, your feelings are hurt? Well, you're a man, we've dealt with-"

Chris Williamson 1:06:42 Can you... For the people that are just listening, can you describe the, uh, the image?

Zack Telander 1:06:46 All right, so look. So look, we have the women of all sizes on top, uh, we have women of all ages for sure on top. You know, we have an older lady on the right, couple older ladies in the middle. You know some of them-

Chris Williamson 1:06:57 And ethnicities as well.

Zack Telander 1:06:59 ... are definitely... All ethnicities. Men. Shredded, shredded, shredded chicken.

Chris Williamson 1:07:05 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:07:05 Absolutely dick skin peeled. Uh, okay, well it looks like we have, uh, a couple different races here. Uh, and then shredded.

Chris Williamson 1:07:15 Well no-

Zack Telander 1:07:15 Like these-

Chris Williamson 1:07:15 It's not a couple of different races. There's only one, like, slightly caramel guy but that's the same dude twice.

Zack Telander 1:07:21 Oh, that's the same dude.

Chris Williamson 1:07:22 (laughs)

Zack Telander 1:07:22 That's the same dude twice. Great. Yeah, that's great.

Chris Williamson 1:07:24 Homeboy in the middle is ready to step on stage. He's peeled out of his mind.

Zack Telander 1:07:28 Yeah.This is not, uh, yeah, the acceptable... But this is interesting, they have, um, this is different brands. So, are they pulling from... Are these, like, Meyer, uh, models or what's the deal here?

Chris Williamson 1:07:43 I'm not sure-

Zack Telander 1:07:44 Like, they're pull-

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 ... 'cause sometimes, sometimes, uh, e-commerce sites will have their, they'll get products from a bunch of different brands, then they'll shoot it in their style, right? Like ASOS does this. ASOS has ASOS models even though they might have Nike clothes. So, it doesn't really matter that it's different brands.

Zack Telander 1:07:59 This is fucked up, man.

Chris Williamson 1:08:01 How fucking wild is that?

Zack Telander 1:08:05 (laughs) Oh, my God.

Chris Williamson 1:08:06 It's so blatant.

Zack Telander 1:08:08 But a- anyways, to finish what I was saying, it's just like this, this idea that, you know, this woman had brought this to my, my attention. She's like, "You know, I, I do tend to just not really give as much of a shit about men's feelings." Because it's always we're worried about, we are worried about m- women's feelings and, and a lot of times we can brush it off. And that is a mistake that I've, I've made and I try not to make anymore. And, you know, it's the same thing here. It's like, well, we have to absolutely worry about body dysmorphia in men. Because the moment that men begin to think that their bodies aren't as acceptable as they sh- could or should be, they can develop problems that, you know, ush- they usher out into, to real life. We've seen this in, in bodybuilding, in, in my world, in fitness. Like, the people that are constantly commenting on another dude's body, like they do have problems within their, their own worlds. This isn't just men towards women. It could be women towards women or men towards other men, and it happens a lot of men towards other men.

Chris Williamson 1:09:09 But dude, think about what, what we said on the last one, which is slut-shaming, the amount of slut-shaming that goes from women to women, the amount of people who are anti-abortion or pro-life. Uh, by and large, it's women. The vast majority of, uh, comments that are done about other women's appearance is done from women to women. And yeah, like, this is where the whole battle of the genders thing.

Zack Telander 1:09:33 Yeah, you can't, you, it's can't just be this thing where it's like men-

Chris Williamson 1:09:38 Versus women-

Zack Telander 1:09:38 ... men-

Chris Williamson 1:09:38 ... or women, women versus women.

Zack Telander 1:09:40 Men versus women, or women versus men. It's, it really is problematic. And I, it's so fucking weird. It's like I had this realization on TikTok, because it's like the gen Z kids, the kiddos out there. Like, you're, you're noticing a lot of women who are just like, they, they're playing on it. They're not actually serious, but they always vocalize it. It's like having a crush on a woman now. Like me- women are much more vocal about being sexually interested in other women because of their disdain for men in general, because we have the men versus girls, girls versus-

Chris Williamson 1:10:14 Yeah.

Zack Telander 1:10:14 ... or sorry, yeah, men versus girls, girls versus whatever. You know, that, that war going on between the two of them, it's just so apparent. And th- the same could be said at, on the opposite side. Like the, the, the idea of, "Oh, she's for the streets." You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 1:10:29 What's that mean?

Zack Telander 1:10:30 Like, the, the, uh, it's like, um, if a, if a woman, you know, does something that's slutty, she's for the streets.

Chris Williamson 1:10:36 Oh, okay.

Zack Telander 1:10:37 Like, pick your hea- pick your head up, king. Like, focus on yourself type of shit.

Chris Williamson 1:10:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Zack Telander 1:10:41 That's, it's, that's like the, the, the meme language that kind of surrounds it. And they both have their flaws, you know? But it's, it's, it's always, it's just, uh, for me, the only reason I'm bringing it up is because, like, I don't see that changing. And I think you, you told me this before, like, uh, that's where you, you have your issues, Zach, is that you call to action a culture shift, which is just like an almost impossible task.

Chris Williamson 1:11:05 Yes.

Zack Telander 1:11:06 I do that a lot on my videos. I go, "Oh, I, I wish, as a culture, we could do this thing better." Um, or, or I'm pointing out this flaw in, in some sort of fitness charlatan, and I'm, I'm wishing that we could do this thing better. And for some reason, I forget what your point was or who brought it to your attention, but it's like calling to action this mat- massive cultural shift is not always the answer. Or it's, it's not even remotely the answer. It will never work.

Chris Williamson 1:11:31 I just don't think that it's realistic, 'cause you don't have, like, a God's eye coordination for this. You know, what you would need to do would be able to sit everybody down and say, "Look, here are some interesting insights, guys and girls, about where you think your repression or your vulnerability or your difficulties come from, and a lot of them are calls that are coming from inside of your own fucking house," right? Women who will, for the most part, presume that... I, I would guess if you were to do a survey of women, they would think that slut-shaming, anti-abortion rhetoric, and body-shaming mostly comes from men. It doesn't. It comes from women. And guys, like most of the guys that are having the piss taken out of them about the way that they look or about how strong they are, about how noodly their arms are and stuff, that, it's not girls that are saying that.

Zack Telander 1:12:14 No.

Chris Williamson 1:12:14 It's your bros.

Zack Telander 1:12:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:12:15 It's your bro friends or the people that aren't even your friends, right? Like, that's where the vast majority of attention... But this gender war thing that we've got that's going on at the moment, it gets clicks, right? Because it creates an easy in-group and out-group. You know, uh, maybe after race, it's the most prevalent in, and most obvious in-group and out-group that there is.

Zack Telander 1:12:37 Yeah, and then, you know, you would, you would assume that is part of, like, the, you know, the non-bi- binary discussion as well. You can create in-group, out-group easily there.

Chris Williamson 1:12:46 Well, there's a million different in-groups and out-groups if you do that. Look, Z, let's bring this one home, man. Uh, people who want to keep up to date with the shit that you're doing, where should they go?

Zack Telander 1:12:55 Uh, please go to my YouTube channel. Um, I discuss things all, all things fitness.

Zack Telander 1:13:00 A little bit of a, you know, a, a focus on Olympic style weightlifting, but I try to focus on general fitness. My Instagram, coach_zt if you want programming. Uh, I have general programming, I have squat programming. For what you wanna do in the gym, go to patreon.com/zachtraelinger, and I think that's it. That's all.

Chris Williamson 1:13:24 That's it, man. Peace.

Zack Telander 1:13:25 Flex for the cameras.

Chris Williamson 1:13:27 What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.