MICHAEL CAZAYOUX | From Childhood Addiction To Becoming The Fittest On Earth

Chris Williamson 0:00 (wind blowing) Hi, friends. Today, I am sitting down with Michael Cazayux, who is the CEO and founder of Brute Strength Training and two times CrossFit Games team champion. (inhales deeply) He is also the man behind Brooke Ent, Jacob Heppner, Kara Webb, and the winning team from last year's CrossFit Games, the Wasatch Brutes. What makes his story so compelling is the fact that he does not come from what you would consider to be the typical perfect (laughs) environment for an elite athlete or a fantastic businessman. He's an ex-drug and alcohol addict. He's been to rehab a number of times. It is apparent that he has suffered with some really dark places in his life and yet he's managed to come out the other side and be this incredibly well-balanced, very altruistic, very shrewd, intelligent, and compassionate guy who also has an unbelievable capacity as an athlete and as a coach. Um, it's definitely one of the- the best conversations that I've had. I found it incredibly empowering. A lot of the conversation isn't about sport, it's to do with his approach for how to mentally overcome obstacles within your life. He's been to a stage where he was smoking heroin and injecting cocaine, which I didn't even know that you could do. (laughs) And out of the other side of that, he's got this fantastic life where he's flourishing and he's doing something that he really cares about and is well-regarded within his field. It was a wonderful chat, and I feel incredibly fortunate to have been able to sit down with him. So that's enough for intros, here he is, the man himself, Mr. Michael Cazayux. (instrumental music)

Chris Williamson 2:10 So, Mr. Michael Cazayux, welcome to Modern Wisdom.

Michael Cazayoux 2:14 Thanks for having me, brother. I'm- I'm excited.

Chris Williamson 2:15 Yeah. Me too, man. Me too. So CEO of Brute Strength, two times CrossFit Games winner, an all-around good guy. How are you doing today?

Michael Cazayoux 2:23 Doing great, man. Uh, other than the fact that my water got shut off. They sent me- they sent me, like, three warnings-

Chris Williamson 2:30 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 2:30 ... but I thought it was all spam, so I just threw them away, and today they shut it off. And my wife's family is in town, so we're- we're having to use the bathroom and stuff-

Chris Williamson 2:41 No way.

Michael Cazayoux 2:41 ... not at the house. Yeah-

Chris Williamson 2:42 Wow.

Michael Cazayoux 2:42 ... it's pretty funny.

Chris Williamson 2:43 That's funny. Well, I think you can-

Michael Cazayoux 2:44 It's a great day though.

Chris Williamson 2:45 (laughs) Yeah. Um, so I wanted y- yourself to give a little bit of background, um, I think pretty much everybody in the CrossFit community will have heard of Brute Strength, Brute Body, in one form or another, but I think it would be interesting for you to give us a little bit of a background as to what you did as an athlete when you were younger. I know that you said that you did a lot of sports when you were younger, so if you could try and just give us a little bit of background to begin with, that would be great.

Michael Cazayoux 3:12 Yeah. I- I grew up playing as many sports as possible. I played football, baseball, soccer, basketball, golf. I did powerlifting, weightlifting, and I was above average at all of them, kind of naturally, but I never applied myself at all. I loved competing, I loved playing games, and I just didn't see the value in practicing as a kid. So, uh, you know, I nev- I never really developed much in- in my younger years, in high school, until right before I left for Utah. I started- I started to see that if I practiced hard, I would get better at hitting, I would get, you know, better as an outfielder, and I started to practice really hard and then I moved away and took a couple of years off of sports.

Chris Williamson 4:03 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 4:03 But, yeah, I was very active, loved sports, and was just not a- not a very hard worker.

Chris Williamson 4:09 Yeah. Which is interesting when you've managed to make it to the elite in a sport as well, I suppose.

Michael Cazayoux 4:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:13 It's an interesting dichotomy. So the other day I had Dominic McGregor, who's the COO of Social Chain, on, and he was very candid about his problems that he'd had with substances, and I think it's very humbling and quite eye-opening to see stories firsthand of people that you- are operating at such a high level, but have also had such problems, like, such serious problems that, uh, would break a lot of- a lot of people's spirits, and yet they're still able to perform at a level that most people would consider to be... They've made it up the hierarchy and- and, you know, they're- they're really successful. Um, could you take us through your problems with substances and- and how that came about and then sort of where that- where that took you, where you ended up?

Michael Cazayoux 5:01 What do you mean? What- what problems with substances?

Chris Williamson 5:03 If you- you- you-

Michael Cazayoux 5:04 I'm just messing with you.

Chris Williamson 5:06 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 5:07 (laughs) Yeah. And- and- and I'll start out by saying it was because it broke my spirit that I w- that I've been able to have the success that I have. It's because I went so low and so deep that I have the ability to be so grounded and be so passionate about, you know, the different things that I am passionate about today. My- the- the journey kind of started at nine years old. I had my first drink of alcohol by myself on my ninth birthday, and I remember taking a shot of whiskey and just feeling, like, maybe for the first time, that I was accepted and feeling really comfortable in my body. I didn't realize until much, much later that I was a very anxious kid and I wanted... Everyone wants to be liked, everyone wants to be cool. I really, really had to be liked and I had to be cool, and I was willing to go to much greater lengths than my peers to be accepted.By the time I was 14, I was smoking weed, uh, very, you know, very regularly at my house by myself every single day. That led to painkillers and benzodiazepines. I was taking that, those every single day as a 15-year-old. Around that time, my parents started to catch wind of what, what I was doing. I started to fail, you know, drug tests for, for just about every drug on the panel.

Chris Williamson 6:35 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 6:35 And so they started taking me to AA meetings as a 15-year-old.

Chris Williamson 6:38 Wow.

Michael Cazayoux 6:38 And I remember sitting in there and really, really feeling for these people. You know, they, the, these are people that were either homeless or they had lost their families, or they had gotten some kind of severe illness, you know, alcoholics with-

Chris Williamson 6:53 Very, very chronic.

Michael Cazayoux 6:54 ... really ... Yeah, exactly, like, really bad liver issues. And I really developed some empathy for these people. But I wasn't one of them, you know? I, I totally could not relate.

Chris Williamson 7:06 I'm gonna guess there weren't very many other 15-year-olds that were in AA meetings. (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 7:09 There, there were none. There were none. And so I thought that I didn't belong there.

Chris Williamson 7:14 Yep.

Michael Cazayoux 7:14 And I really got nothing out of it for myself.

Chris Williamson 7:18 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 7:18 I was in complete denial that I had any problem. I just thought I was having fun and I was in complete control. By the time I was 16, I was using ecstasy and cocaine and, uh, very s- very serious painkillers.

Chris Williamson 7:31 Were you still going to the AA meetings at this time?

Michael Cazayoux 7:33 Still going to the AA meetings. And actually, I started to go more frequently. And I started, I started to have these kind of different lives where I would go to AA meetings probably two or three nights a week, and then another two nights a week, I would tell my parents I was going to a meeting, but I would just go get loaded. But I really ... And I, this doesn't have a ton to do with my story, but I think it's really interesting and, uh, I think it's really interesting. I started to have this different life where I started to develop these true friendships with, with these people in AA, people that were roughly 10 years older than me-

Chris Williamson 8:11 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 8:11 ... that wou- that I just learned a ton from. They were, they were much more mature than any of my friends. They, they cared about a lot of different things. They were really happy and carefree. They were having a shitload of fun completely sober, and I loved that and I, and I made some good friends out of it, and I was high a lot of the time that I was hanging out with them, you know? There was, there was ... I was still in complete denial that I had any problem with it. I thought I just had to convince all of the authority figures that I had it under control or that I wasn't using drugs and that it would all be okay.

Chris Williamson 8:48 You were just playing the game.

Michael Cazayoux 8:50 Just playing the game. I'm a great, great player of the game. By the time I was 17, the first one of my good friends, uh, passed away. He, he went to sleep next to another one of my friends. They both took OxyContin and Xanax that night. And one of my friends woke up and the other didn't. And instead of going to this guy's funeral, I chose to shoot up OxyContin and cocaine for the first time. And that d- that really shows you the kind of person that I had become. Uh, I just, I didn't care for other people. I started to steal from every single person in my life, my peers, my family, businesses. No, no one and nothing was off-limits. I just thought I was entitled to whatever you had, and so I stole from everyone.

Chris Williamson 9:38 Where do you think- Where do you think that was born from? Where do you think the, this, um, detachment from responsibility came from?

Michael Cazayoux 9:48 That's a really great question.

Michael Cazayoux 9:53 I think it, I think it just started kind of as a seed, where I made one decision that the ... L- let's take ... I, I can't, I, I definitely can't remember the first, the first time this ever happened, but I'll say I, I s- I started ... The first time I ever stole, it was out of my mom's purse, and it was probably something like 5 or $10 to get a couple pills or maybe a dime bag. And I just, I didn't see it as that big of a deal. I saw it definitely didn't line up with my values that I had been raised on, but I didn't think my mom would really miss the money. I thought, "If she doesn't find out, you know-"

Chris Williamson 10:33 It doesn't matter.

Michael Cazayoux 10:33 "... no real harm done. I'm not gonna do it again."

Chris Williamson 10:35 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 10:36 And it's just a small, it's a small lie, like, a small, uh, wrong.

Chris Williamson 10:42 Yep.

Michael Cazayoux 10:42 And so it didn't seem like that, that big of a deal. It happened again, and it happened again. And sooner or later, I start doing slightly bigger things.

Chris Williamson 10:53 Slip- slippery slope.

Michael Cazayoux 10:54 Exactly. Slightly bigger things. I started stealing from other people. And I just start making these compromises where I'm acting out of line with my values and I'm not ... Just like someone losing weight can't really see themselves losing the weight-

Chris Williamson 11:09 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 11:10 ... I couldn't really see myself changing 'cause it happened so slowly and-

Chris Williamson 11:14 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 11:14 ... and over such a long period of time.

Chris Williamson 11:17 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 11:17 So it was just one compromise after the other.

Chris Williamson 11:20 I understand. So, 17, friend's died and you detached away from that. Then what happens? Where do you go from there?

Michael Cazayoux 11:30 February, later that year in February, uh, my parents chose to send me to rehab, and I absolutely needed it. And I even knew that I needed it at this point. I knew that I was just, I was just really out of control and I was kind of scaring myself with some of the decisions I was making. I kn- you know, this guy had just died. Earlier that year, I had totaled a truck. I had gone, gone through four lanes of oncoming traffic and totaled a truck. And so I was kind of scaring myself and I knew I needed it, but I thought ... I had just wr- re- uh, read the book Scar Tissue by Anthony Kiedis.

Chris Williamson 12:09 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 12:09 And in that book, he goes through, like, p-... I don't know, half a dozen short-stent rehab centers, like 30 days, and they're all in Malibu, and he talks about, like, meeting- meeting some fine chicks and stuff. So, I'm kinda pumped. You know-

Chris Williamson 12:23 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 12:23 ... I'm going to like-

Chris Williamson 12:23 It sounds like a holiday.

Michael Cazayoux 12:24 Yeah. I think I'm going to a cush, uh, rehab center. I might meet some chicks.

Chris Williamson 12:30 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 12:31 And I'll kind of, I'll just regain control over myself. That's- that's my thought process. My parents had a totally different idea. They sent me to ni- uh, let's see, nine, nine or 11 months of in-patient treatment, a couple different facilities, and then I did another nine months of- of a halfway house. And that was, it was absolutely crucial and it transformed my life.

Chris Williamson 12:57 How so?

Michael Cazayoux 13:01 The first two months were in a wilderness therapy center, and it was in the middle of the desert with 15 other adolescent boys. And really what that time did was it helped me to, it helped all of that chatter in my head ... You know, s- I had some depression and anxiety, and my mind was just chaotic, and it helped that to really chill out. It helped me to detach from a lot of the bad influences in my life. It helped me to detach from a lot of my- my desires and just that- that internal chatter that never turned off. I didn't really get much good therapy done there. That started in the next program. So, this was, uh, like a lockdown facility. You don't leave for several months at all. And I had a very hard-nosed therapist that called me on my shit. And this treatment center, in general, really encouraged the- the- a lot of the therapy to be done by the peers. And again, going back to me just really wanting to be liked and accepted, that was by far the most powerful thing-

Chris Williamson 14:13 'Cause that's now a positive influence.

Michael Cazayoux 14:15 ... in terms of ... Exactly.

Chris Williamson 14:16 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 14:16 And they, I mean, they had guys just saying ... I- I would- I would be thinking I'm sharing something really vulnerable and I'm being authentic, and they would flat-out call me out. Like, "That's- that's fucking bullshit."

Chris Williamson 14:28 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 14:28 "You're telling us, like, 5% of the truth, passing it off as the full truth."

Chris Williamson 14:33 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 14:34 And man, I just, I- I- I had to learn to go deep.

Chris Williamson 14:37 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 14:37 And for a long time, I- I just completely shut down and I refused and I withdrew, which is kind of my, that was my MO. If- if things got tough, I would just withdraw. At some point, I got over that and I really did the work. I got vulnerable. I contributed to other people's recovery, and I accepted other people to hold me accountable, to love me, and I just learned a shitload of lessons, man. And- and it really changed my life.

Chris Williamson 15:03 That's fantastic. So, I definitely think that it makes sense. You'd absconded

Chris Williamson 15:10 from responsibility for your own actions a little bit, and you were obviously a- able to outwit some of the people in your life that were questioning whether or not you were actually being truthful. And I think that a lot of people can probably relate to that. It doesn't necessarily need to be with regard to drugs, but vulnerability with a partner, telling them that you actually don't feel comfortable with that guy or girl that they're talking to or whatever, and it manifests itself in another way, uh, in resentment or in, uh, in, uh, level of mistrust or whatever it might be. And I think that there's a lot of people that will withdraw in that way, play the game, up until the point at which the- the problem's out of the way, and then they can kinda get cracking again on their terms-

Michael Cazayoux 15:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:55 ... without actually having to make themselves vulnerable. So, I think that's an extreme example of a situation that a lot of people probably go through. So, you're nine months deep now. You've gone through your nine to 11 months of rehab, and then where are we?

Michael Cazayoux 16:12 Then I start college. I go to a halfway house, and immediately after I get out of that in-patient treatment, I'm rocking and rolling, man. I'm- I'm so motivated, just so high on life. I start running for the first time. And real quick, I- I tried out for the University of Utah baseball team, couldn't quite hack it, so I start running. And I train really, really hard for the Salt Lake City Marathon, and I ac- I end up winning my age division.

Chris Williamson 16:42 No way.

Michael Cazayoux 16:42 Do really well. I'm- I'm pumped on it. And at the same time, I get really burnt- burnt out on running.

Chris Williamson 16:47 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 16:47 So, at the end of that, I suddenly don't have like a physical goal and I also didn't have many friends yet. I was in a, in a new city for the first time, and a lot of the people in my halfway house were actually s- you know, smoking crack and- and drinking. And it was just not a very positive environment. So-

Chris Williamson 17:09 So, you've- you've gone back to maybe a negative influence from the peer group again?

Michael Cazayoux 17:13 Well, I just didn't hang out with them at all.

Chris Williamson 17:14 Okay, okay. So, you've learned that you can segment your life a little bit.

Michael Cazayoux 17:19 Absolutely. And I was, I was definitely gung-ho on staying sober. And I started to meet some friends through Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous, but I didn't make any real deep connections in the first six months. And so, when that- when that marathon was done, didn't have a goal and I just, I had really started to isolate myself just because I- I didn't have anything to really look forward to. I didn't like college at all. I did- I didn't have any deep relationships. And suddenly, I don't have this physical goal. And I was always really driven by physical goals. E- e- even if it'd just be playing games really hard, right?

Chris Williamson 18:02 Yep. Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 18:02 I- I- I always loved to play.

Chris Williamson 18:04 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 18:04 And I didn't have any of that. And so, long story short, I isolate myself for about a month, start smoking cigarettes again, kinda get...... ca- well, not kind of, I get really sick. I get a really bad cold because I, I smoked one of my sponsor's, my AA sponsor's, like, uh, p- uh, roll-your-own cigarettes, and it's really harsh.

Chris Williamson 18:25 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 18:25 And so I get sick. And man, this seed of a thought gets planted in my head where I, I'm, um, I've, I'd gotten kind of depressed, didn't have any good friends, and this just seed of a thought pop- pops in, "Maybe I can go get loaded." Right? "I can go get some codeine syrup, and I can get loaded, and it won't be a big deal." And I, I push it away, and I actually... I talk to my sponsor about it. I talk to my therapist, even, about it, and I decide I'm not gonna do it. But that seed of a thought grows really, really rapidly because I'm, I'm still sick and it just... It feels really shitty and I'm depressed. It grows really rapidly, and within a week or two, I decided that I was gonna get fucked up. And within 24 hours, I made the decision that I was gonna go to the hospital, uh, the university hospital. I was gonna get some codeine syrup, and I knew that I could lie to the doctor and say I w- I was in a lot of back pain because I was born with a, a genetic back disorder. And so that's what I did. I went to the university hospital, got the, got the drugs, got in the elevator of the pharmacy with the drugs, and by the time I reached the bottom floor, I had taken a bunch of pills, s- uh, took a big old sip of, of cough syrup.

Chris Williamson 19:46 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 19:46 Probably eight hours later, I'm smoking crack and shooting heroin all over again.

Chris Williamson 19:51 And you've tumbled straight back in?

Michael Cazayoux 19:53 Yep.

Chris Williamson 19:54 Wow.

Michael Cazayoux 19:54 Luckily for me, that la- that only lasted a week. And some people in my halfway house told my therapist that I was using again, and they, and they pulled me back into the program. And that, uh, I think it was June maybe 28th, 2008-

Chris Williamson 20:12 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 20:12 ... was the last day that I used heroin or smoked crack.

Chris Williamson 20:16 Okay. And then was that... From there, is that full sobriety, from that date?

Michael Cazayoux 20:21 For five years, I was completely sober.

Chris Williamson 20:24 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 20:24 And ab- yeah. Roughly five years later, I made the decision to drink occasionally and smoke weed occasionally.

Chris Williamson 20:31 And how have you found that effect on full sobriety? And what a lot of people attach their, um, their recovery to is being teetotal.

Michael Cazayoux 20:45 Yep.

Chris Williamson 20:46 And it's all or nothing, and it definitely sounds like that's a theme in your life as well. Um, I did a podcast not so long ago, and I brought this up with Dom, with a friend who said that he didn't believe that going completely teetotal is conquering an addiction. He said, as far as he's concerned, it's being able to stop your use of the substance and then the reintroduction of the substance on your terms, or a substance. There's some that are too difficult to be ab- you can't have a little bit of heroin, but-

Michael Cazayoux 21:17 Right.

Chris Williamson 21:18 ... uh, specifically with alcohol, his point was that it needs to be a reintroduction on your terms and if you can then control the usage. So, how did you find having your first drink after you'd had such a long time off? And were you scared? Were you concerned that that was gonna be the beginning of something

Chris Williamson 21:35 worse?

Michael Cazayoux 21:35 Yeah. Really, really great question. And I, I love what your friend Dom said, and I would agree to a certain point, but everyone's different. And there are human beings that I believe are so... They've, they've, they've used for so long and just literally rewired their brains for so many years, it's, it's not even safe to ever chance reintroducing anything.

Chris Williamson 22:00 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 22:01 For me, I thought, "That could be the case," and I thought about it for about six months and talked to my entire support system, other than my parents 'cause that would have really scared them.

Chris Williamson 22:11 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 22:11 But I talked to everyone else, therapists, uh, mentors, friends, et cetera. And then one night, a friend came over and he had a big bag of weed, and he went to the shower. And I'd been thinking about it, and so I just grabbed this little, this little nugget, and later that night, I rolled myself a joint. And it was, it was impulsive of me, right? I couldn't say for sure that nothing bad was gonna happen, but I had been thinking about it for so long, and I was pretty damn sure that I had overcome the issues, the challenges that led me to the place that I was in the first place and just felt really confident. And so I made the decision and smoked some weed, and nothing bad happened. And so, it was, it was really scary in the beginning, and I kept, I kept kind of, like, looking and, and waiting for things in my mind to change, like for me to develop cravings, and they just never came. But the, the one promise that I made to myself and I will always keep is that if I feel any kind of emotio- like, negative emotion, any kind of real challenge in my life, I'm very vigilant that I can't medicate with any kind of substance. I have to deal with it healthily, like a healthy human being, by doing some introspective work, by sharing it with someone I trust, by just literally working through it. And I use, I use those things to... as a, you know, to have fun with people, as a, as a sh- social event, not as a coping mechanism anymore.

Chris Williamson 23:52 I understand. I understand completely. Were you

Chris Williamson 23:55 proud of yourself refer- referentially after the event, after you'd had your first spliff, after you'd had your first drink? Was there a sense of achievement that you knew, "Uh, hang on. This was something that I used to..." Like, "I, I was never able to clean 140 kilos, and now I've finally-"

Michael Cazayoux 24:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:12 "... cleaned 140 kilos." Like, was there a sense of accomplishment having done it and then not...... tumbled down the rabbit hole, so to speak?

Michael Cazayoux 24:21 No. I was ... It was a feeling of relief and a feeling of guilt.

Chris Williamson 24:27 Wow.

Michael Cazayoux 24:27 Because for a full year, I didn't tell my parents.

Chris Williamson 24:30 Okay.

Michael Cazayoux 24:30 Because I decided ... Admi- who know- I don't know what the right decision was.

Chris Williamson 24:36 Yep.

Michael Cazayoux 24:36 But I felt so much guilt because I knew if I told them at a certain point, they would be just so terrified, and I didn't want them to feel that. I wanted to get ... I wanted to have done it for s- long enough to where I could say, "Hey, I've been doing this for a year. I'm happier than I was before." Right? "I- I've prioritized my mental health still, and I'm even happier, and I just want ... I wanna let you guys know that I'm okay, but I've- I've made this decision." Uh, so I ha- I ha- carried that guilt with me for about a year.

Chris Williamson 25:11 Wow, that's a heavy burden to carry, especially when you're-

Michael Cazayoux 25:13 For sure.

Chris Williamson 25:14 ... potentially, um, using substances as well. Even in moderation, it's still a pretty, um, still a pretty big burden to bear.

Michael Cazayoux 25:21 For sure. It- it- it was worth it to me though because one of the biggest decisions I- I chose to not be completely sober anymore was because I felt like I was expending a lot of energy trying to protect this- this sobriety that I didn't really identify with anymore. I didn't identify with this sense of being powerless anymore, so I thought I was spending energy, um, without needing to.

Chris Williamson 25:47 I understand.

Michael Cazayoux 25:48 Does that make sense?

Chris Williamson 25:48 Yeah, willpower's a finite resource. There's an interesting study by Dr. Roy Baumeister with radishes.

Michael Cazayoux 25:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:55 Have you heard of this?

Michael Cazayoux 25:57 I kno- I know of the concept-

Chris Williamson 25:58 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 25:59 ... willpower is finite. I don't know if I know of that study.

Chris Williamson 26:01 So basically, he put two people in a room. Uh, one had radishes and cookies, and the other just had cookies.

Michael Cazayoux 26:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:08 The radishes group were told that they could only eat the radishes, and the cookies group were allowed to eat the cookies. Then after they'd both been in the room for a fixed period of time, both groups were given a tough mathematical test that I think couldn't be completed within the particular timeframe, and it was a long timeframe. The group that had the radishes gave up 50% quicker than the group that didn't.

Michael Cazayoux 26:32 No.

Chris Williamson 26:33 Because-

Michael Cazayoux 26:33 That's fascinating.

Chris Williamson 26:34 ... because their willpower had been reduced already. So when it came-

Michael Cazayoux 26:37 Wow.

Chris Williamson 26:37 ... to doing a cognitively demanding task, they had nothing left in the tank, or they had less.

Michael Cazayoux 26:41 Oh, shit.

Chris Williamson 26:42 Less left in the tank.

Michael Cazayoux 26:43 That's cool.

Chris Williamson 26:44 It is cool, isn't it? I think it's, um ... It's a big ... We'll get onto it in a second, but you're a big advocate of morning routines and of, um, taking things out of choice and into habitual, uh, the habitual domain, and I think that that definitely is i- if anyone who's listening that doesn't have a good morning routine for a start up, like, that- that's all that you need to know.

Michael Cazayoux 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:07 If you, if you spend your time on a morning choosing which cereal it's gonna be or what m- meat you're gonna cook or w- whether you do meditate or don't meditate or do have a shower-

Michael Cazayoux 27:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:16 ... or don't have a shower, that's a decision later in the day that you need to make that you can't-

Michael Cazayoux 27:20 Yup.

Chris Williamson 27:20 ... you can't make with as much efficiency. So you're

Chris Williamson 27:25 now clean. CrossFit, how did you get into it, and what was your first ever workout? Can you remember?

Michael Cazayoux 27:31 Oh, absolutely.

Chris Williamson 27:32 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 27:32 So I had just run, I had just run the marathon, and it was actually before I relapsed. My ... The, a guy who would then become the best man at my wedding, you know, what, seven, eight years later, he ... I met him through my chemical dependency counselor. Uh, the, the, this gal knew that I, you know, loved to be active and had, didn't, didn't have any friends, so she hooked me up with this guy, Bryce, and we started snowboarding together. He knew that I was kinda looking for some kind of fitness to do, and he said, "Hey, man, if you want, come, come try this new thing I'm doing-"

Chris Williamson 28:06 And you said that's two-

Michael Cazayoux 28:07 ... uh, called CrossFit."

Chris Williamson 28:07 2008, 2009?

Michael Cazayoux 28:09 '09.

Chris Williamson 28:10 '09.

Michael Cazayoux 28:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:10 So this is early days.

Michael Cazayoux 28:11 So let's see. 2000 ... Yeah, '08 ... I think it was '09.

Chris Williamson 28:15 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 28:15 So that would mean that that's the, that's the year that the relapse happened. So he, he brings me in, and I'm thinking I'm in phenomenal shape, man. Just won my age bracket. I'm gonna kick everybody's ass. And it was fight gone bad.

Chris Williamson 28:31 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 28:32 And I did one round as hard as I possibly could, and I- I- I halfway blacked out from there. That was so-

Chris Williamson 28:40 Come out, come out of the blocks a little bit quick.

Michael Cazayoux 28:42 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 28:44 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 28:44 I was sore for probably 10 days after, but I absolutely loved it. Oh, and I, and I came in dead last-

Chris Williamson 28:52 Yeah (laughs) .

Michael Cazayoux 28:52 ... in the, in the whole gym. I was not naturally gifted at CrossFit at all. So I just fell, I fell in love with that feel- that transformation that happens throughout th- that hour-long class. Right? You get your, your ass absolutely kicked. Everyone's doing it together. Everyone's suffering and giving all of the effort that they can, and on the other side, they come out a stronger human being mentally.

Chris Williamson 29:19 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 29:19 Right? I loved, I loved that process, and uh, you know, it ... I s- I s- I did it for a couple weeks. The relapse happened, and then I found it again probably six months later.

Chris Williamson 29:30 Okay. So the class is a bit of a microcosm for you overcoming obstacles elsewhere, I suppose, as well. The classes-

Michael Cazayoux 29:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:36 You go through something that's difficult, you come out feeling better at the end. I suppose that's a theme that you'd been through several times back and forth over the years preceding that as well.

Michael Cazayoux 29:45 Certainly, and I couldn't articulate that at the time. I just thought, I thought it was a great workout. It was some, it was very positive people to be around, and I just loved being at that gym.

Chris Williamson 29:58 What had you done before with regards to training that was similar? Had you ... Obviously, you'd done sports that were athletic, but had you done anything in the way of weightlifting or something similar to that seriously?

Michael Cazayoux 30:10 Uh, I competed in powerlifting a little bit. I did a couple weightlifting competitions, and I grew up ... My dad started bringing me to the gym when I was probably eight, and I did it- I didn't take it very seriously, but...... at my school, I probably took it more seriously than any other kid. Uh, I- I- not- not because I wanted to get better at the sports, just because I loved- I loved to lift weights and feel like I was getting stronger. I loved the feeling of putting 135 on the bench press for the first time, 225 for the first time. It was just a- it was just a good feeling-

Chris Williamson 30:45 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 30:45 ... and I liked being in the gym.

Chris Williamson 30:46 That addictive personality showing through a little bit as well, I suppose, with now in-

Michael Cazayoux 30:49 For sure.

Chris Williamson 30:50 ... now in a- now in a positive light.

Michael Cazayoux 30:51 Yep.

Chris Williamson 30:52 So,

Chris Williamson 30:53 how do you go from being dead last in the gym... Obviously, you've got a work capacity, you've completed a marathon, so endurance-wise, I suppose there's a good, uh, there's the beginnings of being able to grind it out, but-

Michael Cazayoux 31:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:06 ... there's not very many CrossFit workouts that take between two and three hours, so-

Michael Cazayoux 31:10 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:11 ... you know, you've got-

Michael Cazayoux 31:11 Right.

Chris Williamson 31:12 ... you've got some big holes in your game. What was- when you were starting out, what- what were you the shittest at? What was really bad for you?

Michael Cazayoux 31:23 Honestly, probably my strength.

Chris Williamson 31:25 Really?

Michael Cazayoux 31:25 Because I had- I was really strong at one point in high school, but then I got really into drugs. And then, I spent nearly two years without touching a weight. And so, everything was heavy for me. And I- I- I wasn't even someone that took to the- the gymnastics techniques very quickly. It just took a lot of practice.

Chris Williamson 31:49 Was there anything-

Michael Cazayoux 31:49 And so-

Chris Williamson 31:49 ... that you found p- particularly easy?

Michael Cazayoux 31:52 Running.

Chris Williamson 31:53 Running. (laughs) Okay.

Michael Cazayoux 31:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:54 So, if you've got- if you've got some running in it, then you're sweet. And if not, then-

Michael Cazayoux 31:58 Well, at the time, at the time. I'm a completely different athlete now-

Chris Williamson 32:01 Yeah, yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 32:01 ... and I dislike the running.

Chris Williamson 32:02 (laughs) Okay, so tell me how you get from there to being th- the number one team in CrossFit two years in a row at the Games. What's the level of work output that you needed to go through to get yourself from that guy in the first workout to standing on number one podium at the Games?

Michael Cazayoux 32:27 So for about a year, I didn't even hear- I didn't even know that, like, a competition, like, an- an official CrossFit competition existed. And so I just showed up at the gym nearly every single day, and just went as hard as I possibly could. And I had, at different points, I just had different people that I was chasing, right? Different levels of people that I was chasing. And I said, "If I can beat that person, then I'm getting better." And over the course of the year, I worked my way up to chasing the guy that got the best time every single day. His name was Rob. He became a really, really good friend of mine. And I just started- I started chasing him and- and just putting in time in the gym.

Chris Williamson 33:12 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 33:12 At some point, I started adding a little bit of strength work before my workouts. A little bit further, I was doing a little bit of strength work, and I was doing a second MetCon either right after the, you know, workout of the day, or I would come in a second time to the gym and just put in extra work. In Decem- probably a year after I s- I think it's a full year after I started, I did a competition where I competed against Tommy Hackenbrook, who would later become my teammate. And I was beating him for long enough in the day, I was in first place in this competition for long enough that I really got his attention, and he ends up really kicking my ass because in the beginning of the day, there were no strength events. And so after that, he- he just destroyed me.

Chris Williamson 33:59 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 33:59 But after the- after the event, he comes up to me and Rob that was at my gym, and he said, "Hey, y'all are both- y'all are both great at this. Why don't y'all come to my gym and we'll start a team?" And so it was, at that time (laughs) , it felt like one of the hardest decisions of my life to leave my first gym-

Chris Williamson 34:18 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 34:18 ... because it felt like I was breaking up with my family.

Chris Williamson 34:21 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 34:22 But, you know, over the course of a couple weeks, I made the decision to leave. And that year, we- we had a team that went to the Games, and Tommy wasn't a part of it. We had a team that went to the Games that placed ninth. And that's the first time that I followed a structured training program. We all just followed Tommy Hackenbrook's training program.

Chris Williamson 34:42 Okay.

Michael Cazayoux 34:42 And it was a lot of two-a-days. There was some monostructural work, like running and rowing, but not a ton. And I would actually skip a lot of that. And it was ju- you know, that was the first time that I really took it seriously.

Chris Williamson 34:57 So would you say that that's a lot, uh, in terms of sophistication, the programming that you were doing that built the basis upon which most of your work time was done in the build-up to you winning the Games, how would you compare that in terms of sophistication to programming that both yourselves do now, and I guess what is typical within the- within the community at the moment?

Michael Cazayoux 35:18 What is typical h- in the community, I would call it, uh, as sophisticated, if not better.

Chris Williamson 35:24 Really?

Michael Cazayoux 35:24 The- the guy that did it, his name is Rob MacDonald, he was the general manager of Jim Jones for a long time.

Chris Williamson 35:30 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 35:31 He has- he's coached dozens of professional athletes, fighters, NFL players, NBA players. And he just really, really gets strength and conditioning at its core. He really understands the principles of strength and conditioning, and he applied all of the work that he's done with professional athletes for so long and just added a CrossFit twist to it, with- with a little bit of Tommy's help.

Chris Williamson 35:56 Yeah. So even in the-

Michael Cazayoux 35:58 But-

Chris Williamson 35:58 ... infancy of the sport, you've got someone who's-

Michael Cazayoux 36:01 Yes.

Chris Williamson 36:02 ... so far ahead of the game.

Michael Cazayoux 36:03 And that was huge for me.

Chris Williamson 36:04 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 36:05 I started to see... I- I learned the- the correct way to train, like, really, really rapidly. The- the next year, this is really what- what changed for me and what had the biggest impact for me, is we decided that we were gonna take the best people of that team...... and we were- and Tommy was gonna join the team. And we were going to-

Chris Williamson 36:26 Is it thr- is it three and three at this point? Is it three and three?

Michael Cazayoux 36:28 Three and three.

Chris Williamson 36:29 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 36:29 Exactly. We decided that we were going to try to create a team that could go and win the CrossFit Games, and so we recruited people. And at that time, people were still talking about recruiting like it was- like it was a sin, you know?

Chris Williamson 36:44 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 36:44 And I just laughed. I'm like, "This is every single sport recruits."

Chris Williamson 36:48 It's talent spotting, yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 36:49 There's nothing, absolutely nothing, like, ethically wrong with recruiting.

Chris Williamson 36:53 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 36:54 We literally got people from other gyms to start working out at our gym.

Chris Williamson 36:57 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 36:57 And we got some savages.

Chris Williamson 36:59 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 37:00 And what changed for me was seeing how a couple of my new teammates trained. Uh, specifically, I'll- I'll talk about Adrian Conway, who I still work with to this day. He did every single thing on the program.

Chris Williamson 37:17 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 37:18 He slept eight to nine hours a day. His diet was on point. He got body work done on him several times a week. Every single thing was on point. And that's the first time I really closely observed someone training like a professional, and it inspired me to do the same.

Chris Williamson 37:39 So he's not doing-

Michael Cazayoux 37:40 It's-

Chris Williamson 37:40 ... more and he's also not doing less.

Michael Cazayoux 37:42 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 37:43 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 37:43 He's doing exactly what his coach is telling him to, which is what a professional does. He's doing everything that he can to- to set him up for success. And so, I wasn't perfect, but I- I got damn near close to doing the exact same thing. And it- what it- what it did is it- it obviously it helped me progress physically at- at a level I just was not used to. I got better at everything very quickly, but it just changed my mind. It- it changed my mindset. I was putting in so much effort and so much focus that it'll- it- it made me mentally tougher. So when I'm in the gym, you know, doing a really grinding workout, I had this new- this new feeling of strength in me-

Chris Williamson 38:30 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 38:30 ... and this ability to push because I n- I believed in myself a little bit more.

Chris Williamson 38:34 It's like a echo chamber, isn't it?

Michael Cazayoux 38:36 And that's not a... Yes. And it's not a tangible thing. You have to- you have to do it and experience it to really understand what I'm saying, but it- it- it made me a- a mentally stronger athlete just by, uh, doing what

Michael Cazayoux 38:51 I was told.

Chris Williamson 38:52 Yeah, the slippery slope runs up and down, doesn't it? When you break-

Michael Cazayoux 38:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:56 ... when you break the discipline in one direction, look at what happens.

Michael Cazayoux 39:00 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 39:00 You've got a number- you've got a number of years of examples of that, and then when you break the discipline in the opposite direction and you start pushing beyond what you thought was- was capable, then you benefit.

Michael Cazayoux 39:12 Exactly. It's all about integrity. You know, as a drug addict, I had zero integrity with myself, so when I- when I would tell myself, "I want to accomplish X goal," I didn't believe it-

Chris Williamson 39:23 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 39:23 ... because I- I could not be trusted. When I started to do everything that I was told, when I started keeping promises to myself, I started to really believe in the things that I was doing. I started to really believe in myself and workouts, and it was a very powerful experience.

Chris Williamson 39:40 I agree. Each- each step that you make is built on top of the previous one, um-

Michael Cazayoux 39:46 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 39:47 Do you think that you would like to coach yourself? If you'd had the Mike Cazayoux athlete in-

Michael Cazayoux 39:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:55 ... 2011 and you were the coach now, do you think that you would like to coach yourself as an athlete?

Michael Cazayoux 40:04 I think I would, actually.

Chris Williamson 40:05 Uh-huh.

Michael Cazayoux 40:06 At that- at that time.

Chris Williamson 40:07 Yes.

Michael Cazayoux 40:07 By the t- by the time I was on that team, yes. I was very... I would do anything that my coach told me. All of the- all of the things in and out of the gym, and I think it would have been int- it would have been fun for me and intellectually stimulating to be challenged so much, because I always wanted to know why we were doing what we were doing, not to- not to call him out and- and argue with him, but I just wanted to understand. I wanted to understand how the body worked and how kinesiology, exercise science works. So I think it would have been fun for me, yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:41 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 40:41 That's a good question. I love that.

Chris Williamson 40:43 Yeah, the- that hunger for information, I guess that's laid the foundations for you to be able to make what is, as far as I can see, one of the premier programming, um, outfits that's in the community at the moment. So to give you a little bit of information from my side, I started the Brute Body Program, what are we-

Michael Cazayoux 41:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:01 ... we start week five. Is this week five? Day-

Michael Cazayoux 41:04 I think so, yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:04 ... one or two today, um, and I'd started that at the beginning of the year. Some friends have given me some- some really good feedback on that. And for anybody who's listening who doesn't know what Brute Body is, it's, uh, I would describe it, and I might do this wrongly, as a physique-focused CrossFit program, I suppose.

Michael Cazayoux 41:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:24 Um, and what's interesting for me seeing someone who has been to the pinnacle of the sport, stood on the podium twice at the CrossFit Games, and typically, the- I think physique and aesthetics in CrossFit can be considered a little bit of a dirty word sometimes. I think that fitness comes first and the y- the over, um, the tribalism that occurs between the Globo side and the CrossFit side sometimes means that if you see someone who's doing bench press or is doing some extra curls in the gym, you know that that's very unlikely going to be for functional reasons and I think-

Michael Cazayoux 42:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:05 ... it's really, really interesting to see you guys having set up a program which is aesthetics conscious. So let's fast-forward and let's talk about Brute Strength and what you guys do.

Michael Cazayoux 42:19 Can I- can I actually comment on that?

Chris Williamson 42:21 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 42:22 'Cause I think that's a really interesting point, and I wanna be clear that I so believe in the CrossFit ethos and that- and that every human being should strive for fitness.... at the same time, Brute Body is not meant to, to be done for one's lifetime. It's meant to be done for, like, three to 12 months. Some people choose to do it longer, but it's, it's to be done for a short period of time and to teach you a new way to train and to add to your training vocabulary. We've had so many people that have been doing CrossFit for seven-plus years that come in and say, "I've never felt better," or, "I've never been this strong-"

Chris Williamson 43:04 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 43:04 ... or, "I'm having so much fun with all of these new movements." So it just, it exposes people to things that they're not already doing.

Chris Williamson 43:11 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 43:12 And it ... All of the accessory work in it has um, an amazing effect on people's bodies, that they're able to go back to their regular, you know, CrossFit programming later, and then add in some of this stuff on the side to keep themselves healthy, to just keep things spicy and entertaining-

Chris Williamson 43:30 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 43:30 ... and, and, and exciting,

Michael Cazayoux 43:31 right?

Chris Williamson 43:32 Isn't it, isn't it interesting that you've got people that have been doing CrossFit as a sport, and you're having to teach them things like one-and-a-quarter incline-

Michael Cazayoux 43:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:41 ... DB curls, and, like, Zercher curls, and, and stuff like that. Like, the typical approach to gym bro lifting would be coming the other way.

Michael Cazayoux 43:51 Right.

Chris Williamson 43:51 It would be, "I can do supinated bicep curls and tricep s- tricep extensions for days, but I don't know how to clean and jerk, I don't know how to snatch."

Michael Cazayoux 43:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:59 And I think it speaks to the dominance of CrossFit as a methodology, and of functional fitness, that you can actually, you can, you know, teach people there's a, you know, eight to, eight to 14 is an acceptable number of reps to try and do.

Michael Cazayoux 44:14 Right.

Chris Williamson 44:15 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 44:15 Right. And you, y- and you may not do that every day-

Chris Williamson 44:18 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 44:18 ... but that's a great way to train sometimes.

Chris Williamson 44:21 I think-

Michael Cazayoux 44:21 You can get some great adaptations that way.

Chris Williamson 44:23 Okay. So, I think from ... (sighs) What's interesting is that you see the guys in the gym, especially in the CrossFit gym. We've got ... Our gym in, in Newcastle is split in half, so there's one side that's the global side and there's one side that's the CrossFit side. And I'm definitely seeing an evolution, I think, of CrossFit in that there is complete fluidity between both.

Michael Cazayoux 44:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:45 There's the guys that tend to spend more time on one side and tend to spend more time on the other, but there is a lot more movement between the two. Do you think, moving forward, that we're going to see more of that? Do you think that you can see CrossFitters who are going to become increasingly focused or less focused on being able ... work capacity and more focused on aesthetics, as the sport becomes more inclusive and wider? Or do you still think that it's all moving in the same direction and it's kind of just extra arms and extra, um, extra armory being added in to an existing body of knowledge, so to speak?

Michael Cazayoux 45:23 It's an interesting question. I think, for sure ... The only thing I know for sure is that CrossFit coaches are becoming very, very competent. They are, they're, they are learning all types of different methodologies. And so I think what we will see is a lot of gyms with just a lot more variety of movements-

Chris Williamson 45:46 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 45:46 ... and a lot more variety of even methodologies, mi- right? We might see people go through different phases, or we might just see a lot of different movements that you're, you're not used to seeing, uh, mixed in your training, either before, during, or after your workouts. As far as the, the camp that people, uh, are a part of, I think people just love to be a part of a camp.

Chris Williamson 46:09 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 46:09 So I think they're going to remain a little bit divided so that they can call themselves a meathead or call themselves a, a hardcore CrossFitter. People just love to feel sturdily a part of a, a certain tribe of

Michael Cazayoux 46:24 people.

Chris Williamson 46:24 I agree. No, I couldn't agree more. The, that identity, the group identity, th- that's fed through from training metho- methodology is absolutely correct. We've got Thursday nights at six o'clock is Gun Club, which is-

Michael Cazayoux 46:36 Nice.

Chris Williamson 46:36 (laughs) ... which is, um, an hour of amrap curls and, um, superset bench press with, uh, plank rows and stuff like that. And that's really, really cool. And seeing some of the guys' eyes open up, if they come in and they've done, they've done bro lifting for a while, and then they come across to the CrossFit side, and they kind of suck at everything pretty much-

Michael Cazayoux 46:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:57 ... the same way as everyone did. And then they see the Thursday six o'clock class, and they look at that and they think, "I can actually ... This is, this is my jam again. I can go in and I can sh-

Michael Cazayoux 47:07 Right.

Chris Williamson 47:07 ... I can show everyone that I have, uh, all of this training has been for something and it's between eight and 14 reps usually." (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 47:13 Right. And, and through that, I love that. Through that experience, you're able to have like a, you're able to be on another level of consciousness, where you, you all of a sudden see, "Okay, CrossFit may be like the best way, but you can also add in these other things and it's not bad."

Chris Williamson 47:29 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 47:29 What's bad is, is focusing solely on isolet- isolation, uh, exercises, right?

Chris Williamson 47:36 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 47:36 That's just not, that's not a functional way to train your body, and it's not good for your health long term. Some isolation exercises sprinkled into your programming can be a phenomenal thing.

Chris Williamson 47:47 I agree. Um, so moving forwards, brute strength, t- to me it doesn't sound like, it doesn't sound like naturally you've had a massive amount of opportunity to develop a business acumen, u- maybe apart from when you're trying to negotiate the price of drugs, um-

Michael Cazayoux 48:06 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:06 ... (laughs) earlier on in your life. It doesn't seem like you would be top of the list as someone who would become a, a clever businessman and would be able to move forward very quickly with that. So can you explain about how you commercialized your passion?

Michael Cazayoux 48:26 So I was really lucky to be a part of the very first Barbell Shrug Mastermind.

Chris Williamson 48:31 Right.

Michael Cazayoux 48:31 And I went into that event literally knowing nothing about business.I, and I'm not even, I'm not exaggerating. I, I was g- about to buy a gym from Tommy and I was about to start Brute. I knew both of those were happening and I had absolutely no idea what I was doing. And I went into that event knowing nothing, and I came out with just my mind exploded with different ideas. So first off, I was very lucky to have, uh, Mike Bledsoe and Doug Larson and those guys as some mentors, and they've continued to mentor me, uh, throughout the years. And I think one of the biggest gifts I, I was given and, and skills that I created through my time in rehab was the ability to just ask for help and not be afraid of looking like I don't know anything. Uh, I have always li- since I got out of rehab, I have just been such a sponge for information-

Chris Williamson 49:36 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 49:36 ... and just l- always asking for feedback, asking how I'm doing, where I can improve, what other people are doing, and just really being vulnerable in the sense that some people might think m- some people might think that's a, that's a sign of weakness or they, they, they might think I'm, uh, you know, I really don't know what I'm talking about and I'm fine with that. And it's allowed me to learn at a really rapid, rapid rate and, you know, steal a lot of ideas.

Chris Williamson 50:03 (laughs) Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 50:04 You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 50:05 One of, one of my, um, favorite YouTubers, anyone who's listening will know who I'm about to quote, Jordan Peterson, one of his rules for life, he's got 40 rules for life, and one of them is, "Assume the person you are speaking to knows something that you don't and listen to them hard enough so that they will tell you."

Michael Cazayoux 50:21 Mm-hmm. Wow.

Chris Williamson 50:21 And I think that that is... So many of the things that we've brought up to- today, number one is tell the truth, number three is act in a way so that you can tell the truth about your actions, and, you know, so many of the things that we've gone through today are principles that appear to manifest themselves in different walks of life. It's interesting that you say that you're showing vulnerability now, whereas the first portion of your life where you were struggling, you were hyper unru- un-vulnerable, or at least externally, whilst internally being the same.

Michael Cazayoux 50:53 Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt.

Chris Williamson 50:53 So speaking, speaking the truth forward definitely appears to have done wonders for yourself. So you know that Brute's Barbell at the time... what was it, what was the first brand?

Michael Cazayoux 51:04 Bruce Barbell.

Chris Williamson 51:05 Bruce Barbell. Okay.

Michael Cazayoux 51:07 Yeah, so my partner Matt Bruce-

Chris Williamson 51:09 (laughs) Okay, yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 51:10 ... he, he, he just had to have his name in there somewhere in the n- in the rebrand, and so we combined Bruce with Ute CrossFit-

Chris Williamson 51:17 Uh-huh.

Michael Cazayoux 51:18 ... Brute.

Chris Williamson 51:18 Cajun Barbell might have been a-

Michael Cazayoux 51:20 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:21 ... nightmare for some people to pronounce.

Michael Cazayoux 51:22 Yeah, right? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:24 (laughs) Um, so where does it go from there?

Michael Cazayoux 51:29 From right, right, right when we started?

Chris Williamson 51:32 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 51:33 Uh, let's see. We start pr- we start programming for people that want to compete at a very, very high level for Cro- i- in CrossFit, right? And so we start-

Chris Williamson 51:42 I guess you've got the access, right?

Michael Cazayoux 51:42 ... basically... Yeah, exactly. So we s- I start basically giving people the type of programming that I was given, tailored to their weaknesses. Somewhere along the way, ve- actually very quickly, I learned the concept of in business, you don't really wanna work on your weaknesses. Instead, you want to highlight your strengths and then hire people where you are weak. And so I started to create this team to co- that, that really complemented me. And so, you know, I had people that paid attention to detail, people that were process-oriented, people that could create systems, people that-

Chris Williamson 52:23 What are your... What are your strengths and weaknesses in business?

Michael Cazayoux 52:27 My strengths are getting ideas, right, making, making new ideas or taking an idea and getting it started like rapidly fast. I don't need hardly any information to s- you know, to have the confidence to start moving forward. That's also a real big problem sometimes because I don't quite get enough information. So my, one of my intentions this year is to take like a 60-second pause before every decision I make-

Chris Williamson 52:57 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 52:57 ... and I, I'm gonna be m- way more accurate because of that.

Chris Williamson 53:00 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 53:01 Uh, what some of my weaknesses are, it's really painful for me to pay attention to any level of detail. I hate that. I hate doing anything t- more than once. I hate repetitive tasks. Um... (sighs) Those are, those are by far the biggest. Oh, and, and organization in general.

Chris Williamson 53:23 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 53:23 It's real- it takes me a lot of energy to keep schedules in place and, and different people in place and managing people. Those are, those are just not in my wheelhouse-

Chris Williamson 53:34 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 53:34 ... and so over time we just hired people that love to do it and are great

Michael Cazayoux 53:39 at it.

Chris Williamson 53:39 Yeah. It's weird, isn't it? Because the same way as a football team or a, a CrossFit team needs guys who bring different strengths and weaknesses in-

Michael Cazayoux 53:48 Yep.

Chris Williamson 53:48 ... you, you can be even more specific with business and have such a, a tight mandate for a particular, a particular, uh, employee or, uh, business partner to look after. And I think-

Michael Cazayoux 53:58 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 53:59 ... I think, uh, you, you're really correct. Doubling down on your strengths in any sort of commercial pursuit is the best way to do it because being okay at everything means that you're not really very great at anything. And there's-

Michael Cazayoux 54:10 Right.

Chris Williamson 54:11 ... loads of people out there that aren't tremendously great at anything, but there's very few people that are particularly great at something.

Michael Cazayoux 54:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 54:18 So I think you've, you've definitely stumbled across something that is a, a really common, uh, route to business success there. Um, so you're now dealing with I wouldn't like to guess how many clients globally. It'll be tens of countries, thousands of clients-

Michael Cazayoux 54:34 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:35 ... and you're now dealing with some of the best athletes in the planet as well. So we're talking about hypertrophy-based training where you're taking people who maybe just want to look better, and then you're also taking people to the games as well, right?

Michael Cazayoux 54:48 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 54:48 For sure. So, you're going from bottom to top. Can you name some of the top-level athletes that you're working with at the moment?

Michael Cazayoux 54:55 We work with Jacob Heppner, Brooke Entz, Kara Webb, Christine Ndali, George Sanchez, Adrian Conway, who was on my team.

Chris Williamson 55:05 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 55:05 Uh, we had a, w- we had the winning team from last year, uh, the Wasatch Brutes.

Chris Williamson 55:11 Yep.

Michael Cazayoux 55:12 So, those, those are some of our heavy hitters.

Chris Williamson 55:14 Some big names in there.

Michael Cazayoux 55:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:16 So, one thing that I wanted to move onto was, I've heard you talk an awful lot about you hitting rock bottom allowed you to spring back out, um, in terms of your development and your motivation. I think (sighs) the people who hit absolute rock bottom are, by the, by their very definition, they are in the m- in the minority. There's a lot more people who are wallowing around in this kind of two-thirds bottom of a squat, so to speak, to use (laughs) , to use the squat analogy.

Michael Cazayoux 55:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:48 And we all know that if you're there, it's a lot more difficult to spring back out because the (sighs) the beginning energy that it takes for you to see everything has gone, this is a, a real life-changing epiphany moment, allowed you to say, "Right, this is enough. I'm knocking it on their heads." Are there any things that you think that, uh, any principles or any advice that you think you could give to people who maybe don't have it that bad, but also kinda don't have it that good? Does that make sense? That it's a little bit of a no man's land-

Michael Cazayoux 56:22 Right.

Chris Williamson 56:22 ... where it's not bad enough to make it super bad to spring you back out of the bottom, but it's also nowhere near really where you want to be. And there might be people who suffer with depression a couple of days a month, and they have an- anxiety and they have problems that are left unchecked, but it's not chronic, severe-

Michael Cazayoux 56:43 Right.

Chris Williamson 56:43 ... life-stopping.

Michael Cazayoux 56:45 They're not in an extreme amount of pain that almost forces them to change. I totally get that.

Chris Williamson 56:49 In that survival mode, yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 56:51 Yeah, unfortunately, a lot of those people, they, they aren't even aware that they're in any pain, and so they're not even gonna hear this. But it's all, it's really all relative. Like, I could've gone so much deeper and so much further. I could've kept digging, kept digging, kept digging. The best way to get out of a hole, the first step, is to literally just put down the shovel. Right? Stop digging further, and decide that you wanna change. For the, for the people that just aren't stoked about their life, right? Maybe they're a little bit sad, maybe they're a lot sad, but nothing horrible is going on, you're literally ... your life is at stake right now. You have, you know, maybe 60 years left, 70 years left, and then it's just all done. And you, you're not gonna have another chance. And so you're, your entire life is at stake, and the only way that you're going to have a, a positive experience in your one chance on Earth is if you take a massive action towards a different type of existence. So, first off, identify and, and accept that you are in a place you don't wanna be, and realize that that acceptance is not weakness, it's actually courage. And even vocalizing that is, is c- is courageous 'cause you're letting people s- see the, the real you. And that's, uh, that's just an act of courage.

Chris Williamson 58:22 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 58:23 So, first off, re- reframe it from a sign of weakness to a sign of courage. And then, a couple helpful things are don't be afraid to ask for help. Ask, you know, if you, if you see, uh, a person living the life you wanna live, ask them what the, the basic principles, the most important principles are to follow that, that they use in their life. Um, and then just focus on trying to know yourself better and better. Through becoming more self-aware, you're, you're going to intuitively know what the right decisions are for you. And it, and it takes, it takes time, it takes consistency, and it takes hard work to really know what's underneath all of the, all of the layers and the ways, th- the defense mechanisms that we've-

Chris Williamson 59:12 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 59:13 ... cultivated over the years. But it's possibly the most important work that we can possibly do.

Chris Williamson 59:20 Well, you've only got that one life, right?

Michael Cazayoux 59:21 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:21 And I think ... Yeah. O- one of the, one of the big things I think that's come out of this is taking responsibility for your actions. I think that you do have two choices. You can presume that nothing you do matters, and that every decision that you make h- is whether there's someone watching or there's someone not, whether the coach in front, is in front of you, or whether the coach isn't even there and you're training on your own, whether you're in rehab or out of rehab-

Michael Cazayoux 59:48 (sighs)

Chris Williamson 59:48 ... however it might be, that the decision is ultimately meaningless. Or-

Michael Cazayoux 59:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:55 ... the alternative ... You ... That's good, right? Because it means, "Well, I, I don't have to take responsibility for anything." I, I guess that's quite a, that's not a tremendously bad price to pay. But the alternative is everything you do matters. Every single decision that you make, whether you make your bed or you don't make your bed, whether you wash the dishes up or you don't wash the dishes up, whether you keep a promise to yourself or someone else, or whether you break it. And I think-

Michael Cazayoux 1:00:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:18 ... that the echo chamber, the self-referential, building one brick at a time mentality that you've definitely had, and, uh, appears to have worked in, you know, bounds for yourself, certainly ... (sighs) It's certainly an inspiring story for other people to hear. And I know that, like you say, it is all relative. And for someone to hear this kind of a story and think, "Well, that's not me. I don't have it that bad ..." You know, if it's not unbelievably good, then it can be better. If it's not-

Michael Cazayoux 1:00:50 Yup.

Chris Williamson 1:00:50 ... absolutely perfect, then there's more work to be done.And I think that hopefully some people will hear and think, "Well, actually, yeah, I could, I could make that bit over there, that bit of my life does need a little bit of work. I, I shouldn't-

Michael Cazayoux 1:01:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:02 ...I shouldn't leave it by the wayside." Um, so the, what I want to finish with is some discussion on meditation, and I've heard you talk about it for a while, and I'd be really interested to know what your typical practice is at the moment.

Michael Cazayoux 1:01:20 Super, super simple. I sit down in a chair. I set a 20-minute timer, and I focus on my breath. Every single time I catch myself lost in thought, I just bring myself back to my breath. That's my sitting meditation practice, and I've been really, really consistent with it for a while now, and (sighs) what I've noticed more than ever, and I, I've, I've had this insight over the years, but I'm, I'm really, I'm seeing this on a very frequent basis now, where I am just the watcher of my thoughts and the watcher of my feelings, rather than being my thoughts and being my feelings. So, somebody cuts me off in traffic, my untrained mind, I am just immediately pissed. I maybe throw them the bird, I speed up, I, you know, I get in front of him and slam on the brakes. I am just... I am angry, right? Through the consistent practice of meditation, I've come to understand that the real me is just the watcher of those things, and if I can develop the... and, and the more I am, I am that watcher, the better my life is, right? The more I have the choice of which thought to believe, and, and I have control over my thoughts and my feelings. So, it basically creates, like, the circumstances in our lives not, don't change. They're going to happen to us, right? That's just life. But what happens in between the time that that circumstance happens and you have a thought, that's where the magic is. And consistent meditation can create this gap between the circumstance and the thought, and the bigger that gap, the more choice you have. So, it goes circumstance happens in life, triggers a thought, triggers an emotion, triggers a behavior, and gives you a result. That result at the end is always directly related to that original thought that you have. So, if you have a result that you keep getting in life that you're not happy with, then reverse engineer it, figure out a thought that you need to think to, to trigger the right emotion and behavior and then result. And then notice that you, you're just in control of which thoughts you believe, right? One, one thought in relation to getting, uh, cut off in traffic is, "That motherfucker is such an asshole. Like, he probably does that to every person. I've got to teach him a lesson."

Chris Williamson 1:03:53 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:03:54 That, that is believable.

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:03:56 Like, that could, that could be the case, right?

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 Believable, but not beneficial.

Michael Cazayoux 1:04:00 Right. One that serves me is something like, "Man, like, that kind of pissed me off, but he's probably having a bad day. I really have no idea what's going on in his life. Maybe he's actually in the middle of an emergency." That triggers a very different type of emotion, which triggers a different behavior, which results in me just chilling, having a good day.

Chris Williamson 1:04:22 Yep. No, I couldn't agree more.

Michael Cazayoux 1:04:23 And we're, we're, we're, we have access to that in every single area of our lives.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 So, you're doing, at the moment, mostly unguided meditation?

Michael Cazayoux 1:04:33 Yeah, all, all unguided.

Chris Williamson 1:04:34 Have you done any formal practice? Have you gone away and been coached by anyone or ever had a meditation teacher?

Michael Cazayoux 1:04:41 Yes, I've done a lot of different, a lot of different things with teachers. I've done actually a lot of guided meditations. Uh, I did Headspace for a long time, and I think for beginners, that's hands down-

Chris Williamson 1:04:53 Unbeatable.

Michael Cazayoux 1:04:53 ...the best way to learn.

Chris Williamson 1:04:54 Unbeatable.

Michael Cazayoux 1:04:54 It's phen- it's phenomenal, it's very cheap, and it, and it's the most kind of like compassionate way to learn, right?

Chris Williamson 1:05:00 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:00 Where you stop, where you don't beat yourself up for being "bad" at meditation.

Chris Williamson 1:05:05 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:05 He takes that away from you.

Chris Williamson 1:05:06 Andy is the nicest guy ever.

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:10 That, that, that voice is the most comforting thing. I actually bought my mom, um, a year of Headspace yesterday.

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:15 Nice.

Chris Williamson 1:05:15 It's, her birthday is not for, like, two months, but she managed to download the app. I've got no idea how-

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:20 (laughs) That's awesome.

Chris Williamson 1:05:21 ...because her, her iPad usually defeats her. But yeah, she, uh, she managed to download the app, and had done the 10-day, and I was like, "Right, you've got, you've, you've gotten this far. Like, I'm gonna get you the rest of it." Um-

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:29 Good call.

Chris Williamson 1:05:30 ...I mentioned this on one of the life hacks podcasts that we did, but you might be interested as well. Aubrey Marcus, who owns on it-

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 ...he has a fantastic guided meditation series, and it's complete with binaural beats-

Michael Cazayoux 1:05:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:44 ...that come along with it. And that course is called Release Into Now, and it's six weeks, half an hour a day. And some of the stuff that he does in there, so you're talking about detachment from thoughts and watching the watcher? There's an exercise in that where he asks you to visualize a video camera three feet away and two feet up in the air, and then you watch yourself through the video camera.

Michael Cazayoux 1:06:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:10 The inside reduces to leave the outline of the body, and then the outline of the body reduces to leave nothing. And that exercise, that's only on week two, and that exercise-

Michael Cazayoux 1:06:22 Wow.

Chris Williamson 1:06:22 ...for me, was so difficult to do. It's a very different kind of meditation. It's not emptying the mind. It's very focused. So, rather than it being floodlight, it's spotlight, but some of the, some of the ways of thinking that that developed me, that, that, um, forced me to develop, were... The way that you feel after doing those is very, very distinct in the same way that I'd say working up to a one-rep max back squat is very distinct from going and running a 10K.

Michael Cazayoux 1:06:52 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:06:53 And, uh, it's still physical exertion.

Michael Cazayoux 1:06:54 That's fascinating.

Chris Williamson 1:06:55 Really-

Michael Cazayoux 1:06:56 I'll check it out.

Chris Williamson 1:06:56 You should do. It's really, really interesting. Um, so I think...The meditation side of stuff definitely appears to match in with your desire for bettering yourself all the time. And I think it's-

Michael Cazayoux 1:07:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:10 ... it's really inspiring to hear a story from someone. I said this to Dom, you hear this all the time from people in the news that too much, too soon and y- the stories of people who go from rock bottom and do manage to make it to a place where they feel valued, but to hear it firstly hand from somebody who is part of a community. Do you still, do you still coach? Do you coach at a box? Or are you-

Michael Cazayoux 1:07:33 I don't. I don't. I travel too much to commit to coaching in person and I actually don't coach anyone remotely anymore as well.

Chris Williamson 1:07:41 Okay. That's interesting.

Michael Cazayoux 1:07:42 We have, we have coaches for all of our programs now.

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 Okay. Do you miss that?

Michael Cazayoux 1:07:45 (inhales deeply) A part of me does, for sure, and I think I'll probably revisit ... I'll probably go back to it at some point in my life, but I feel really energized and challenged by working on the business rath- rather than working in the business as much.

Chris Williamson 1:08:03 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:08:04 And so, um, I'm, I'm just really enjoying it for now.

Chris Williamson 1:08:07 Well, there's only 24 hours in your day, but when you-

Michael Cazayoux 1:08:10 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:08:10 ... when you write a program that can be distributed by however many coaches, that can reach more people, right?

Michael Cazayoux 1:08:14 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08:14 Um, just to finish, am I right in saying that you competed in the Open last year? Was that the first time in a little while?

Michael Cazayoux 1:08:23 It was. It was the f- so I had a- I had back surgery in 2013. I had a lumbar fusion done and then I thought I was done forever. And then this past year, I started going to this really kick ass gym called Crossfit Yukariho, just phenomenal competitive environment and they ... it really just fired me up. So I started in January and I went to their level two class. So they have three levels. Their th- their level two is like sport which is, uh, like a regular Crossfit class and then level three is like your competitor class. I just wanted to do- to do regular Crossfit classes and I went th- went in there and just went all out and I ended up getting in really, really good shape for me, right? Relative to my best. And I decided to compete in the Open and ended up doing really well.

Chris Williamson 1:09:13 You came 327th, was it? Three ... Top 300?

Michael Cazayoux 1:09:19 I'm not sure in the, in the world, but I got like 19th in the region.

Chris Williamson 1:09:23 Yeah. So, having had l- uh, disc fusion in your back and that was the reason that you exited f- sort of full competitive Crossfit-

Michael Cazayoux 1:09:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:35 ... a few years ago and you still managed to get so high up the rankings in the Open. I mean, does that tempt you? Do you, do you hear the, the Crossfit ... do you f- do you hear Dave Castro on your shoulder just sort of-

Michael Cazayoux 1:09:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:09:48 ... teasing you- teasing you to come back in a little bit?

Michael Cazayoux 1:09:49 Definitely. Definitely. It's very, very tempting, but I had this really powerful realization a few months ago that the only reason I still wanna stick around and compete is because I think other people will like it and I will get attention for it. I really am not passionate about competing in Crossfit anymore. I love, I love doing the regular Crossfit classes with, you know, with an- a, a, uh, b- uh, like a big mixture of people.

Chris Williamson 1:10:19 Yep.

Michael Cazayoux 1:10:19 Just like I started doing in the beginning, but I just lost the passion for competing. So ... And at the same time, I've been really, really wanting to get into jujitsu and kind of like dipping my toes in the past few years and just not sticking to it because I keep kind of getting back into Crossfit.

Chris Williamson 1:10:37 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:10:38 And so I've decided this year I'm not gonna do the Open. I'm going to put my ego aside and not go for that thing that I know I'll, I'll get my ego stroked You're gonna do well in it, right?

Chris Williamson 1:10:49 ... or-

Michael Cazayoux 1:10:49 And you're gonna ... And it's almost definite that you're gonna suck at jujitsu. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:10:54 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:10:54 Exactly. And by making that ... I, I haven't been more proud of a, a decision in a while.

Chris Williamson 1:11:00 Wow.

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:00 Because it's really ... it i- it really is so tempting to wanna do that thing that I think people really like.

Chris Williamson 1:11:07 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:07 You know? And I'm gonna suck at jujitsu-

Chris Williamson 1:11:10 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:10 ... for a long time. I might never be good at it.

Chris Williamson 1:11:12 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:12 But I'm r- I really love it and I love the feeling of striving for mastery.

Chris Williamson 1:11:18 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:18 And I just kinda ... I lost that in Crossfit and so now I'm just using Crossfit as a way to stay in great shape and just getting passionate about this new thing.

Chris Williamson 1:11:27 Fantastic. Uh, Michael, I, I've really, really enjoyed this, man. Can you tell us where we can find you online?

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:33 You can find me ... Our website is brutestrengthtraining.com. I am completely off of all social media for the time being, so you won't find me there.

Chris Williamson 1:11:42 That's really interesting. Why is that?

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:44 Yep. Uh ... (clears throat) I recently read a book called Deep Work by Cal Newport.

Chris Williamson 1:11:50 Yep.

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:50 Have you heard of it?

Chris Williamson 1:11:50 Yes, I have.

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:51 Have you read it?

Chris Williamson 1:11:51 Yep. Well, you know why. (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:11:53 So, just for, for the listeners, it- it basically explains that most of us spend maybe all of our time, if not the vast majority of our time, spent in shallow work which is not cognitively demanding, not very meaningful work, and although I wasn't spending a significant amount of time over the course of a week, and I tracked it, I wasn't spending that much time on social media, but I was spending it in the times where I was getting uncomfortable and I s- I was starting to do deep work and I would just des- wanna distract myself, right?

Chris Williamson 1:12:30 Fall back out again.

Michael Cazayoux 1:12:31 Yeah. So when I was like re- like really getting into preparing for a, uh, a really big podcast or I was writing an article for a manual that we were working on, I just found myself wanting to distract and I, I don't like feeling controlled by social media. I also realize that I don't really use it for much positive. I don't post much. We, we have a social media team that does our social media for the company. I wasn't posting much personally-

Chris Williamson 1:13:01 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:01 ... and I was just spending my time-... looking at people and kind of feeling shitty about myself because I'm seeing all of the best of everyone's week of, or of, of, e- everyone's day and I, I could always find someone in one, like, social media session that I could f- I could say, "Oh, my God. He or she is better than me."

Chris Williamson 1:13:22 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:22 And I would, I would really, like, it wouldn't be anything significant, but it would be this little sting of "I'm not doing enough," or "He or she is better than me." And I, I found myself w- like kind of wishing not, uh, wishing poor, poor-

Chris Williamson 1:13:38 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:39 ... I don't know what the word is.

Chris Williamson 1:13:39 It's difficult-

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:39 Like, I don't want people to succeed.

Chris Williamson 1:13:41 Yeah.

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:41 Right? And I don't like that. I don't like that feeling.

Chris Williamson 1:13:43 That's country, that's country to what we've literally just discussed. We're talking about-

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:13:47 ... compassion, virtue, integrity, wanting the-

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:49 (coughs)

Chris Williamson 1:13:49 ... the best for everybody else. And-

Michael Cazayoux 1:13:52 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:13:52 ... in the same hand, it's so strange that on your footnote for this podcast that we've stumbled upon this. So, I did 10 minutes, Dom from Social Chain.

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:01 These guys have 400 million reach on social media-

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:04 Wow.

Chris Williamson 1:14:04 ... which is a significant proportion of the globe, right?

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:14:08 And I asked him about the ethics of technology, about whether or not he feels that people need to be more mindful with the use of tech. I'm not sure if you have done, I know that you're a fan of Sam Harris. Do you follow his podcast?

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:19 I don't, man.

Chris Williamson 1:14:20 Okay.

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:20 I'm dying to get into it.

Chris Williamson 1:14:22 So, episode, I think it's Episode 71. I keep on drilling this, I promise I'm not on a referral code for Sam Harris's podcast.

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:28 Yeah. (laughs) Write it down.

Chris Williamson 1:14:29 But, um, Tristan Harris from Time Well Spent. This podcast basically talks about how cognitive biases and persuasion techniques are used by companies like Twitter and Google and Facebook and Instagram.

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:44 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:14:44 The dopamine release, the reason that Candy Crush was so successful, all of that sort of stuff, and you've stumbled across everything there. The fact of the matter is that on social media, we see the best of everybody else's lives.

Michael Cazayoux 1:14:57 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:14:57 Whilst only in our eyes through a lens of resentment and complete awareness of our own cowardice and stupidity on a daily basis, we only get to see the worst of our own. We compare the best-

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:09 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:15:09 ... of everyone else's lives with the worst of our own. And it inevitably-

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:12 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:15:12 ... leads to feelings of resentment.

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:13 We track the wrong things.

Chris Williamson 1:15:15 Absolutely. If you do get back on your phone, download an app called Moment, which will track your-

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:21 I have it.

Chris Williamson 1:15:21 You've got it? That's all you need.

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:15:23 So, Tristan i- when you listen to that podcast, you will, you will thank-

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:27 Cool.

Chris Williamson 1:15:27 ... you will thank the fact that you decided to put the phone down and, I think, um, so interesting that that's something that you've come across. I've also got-

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:35 Yeah, man. And I, I, I do wanna, I do wanna note that I don't judge anyone for using it.

Chris Williamson 1:15:41 Mm-hmm.

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:41 I just realized that, for me, it wasn't serving me. Right?

Chris Williamson 1:15:45 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 1:15:45 And I wanna regain control, I want to be more mindful in my life. And what I've, what I've noticed is that I am significantly more present in every single thing that I do 'cause I don't have... You know, I could open, I could open, uh, my, my email or open Google, but there's not that many, like, fun things that I wanna go do-

Chris Williamson 1:16:06 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:06 ... on my phone anymore. Right? So I don't-

Chris Williamson 1:16:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:08 I spend like, like a tenth of the time on there. It's awesome.

Chris Williamson 1:16:12 Yeah. What's the strategy? Have you just gone app free? Have you just deleted everything?

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:15 Social media app free?

Chris Williamson 1:16:16 Yep, yep.

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:18 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:16:18 S- so nothing except for stuff that you need for work and iMessage and WhatsApp and stuff like that?

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:24 Exactly. And I'm very... I, I'm not perfect with this, but I am careful about when I, when I check and respond to email and I try to do it in windows throughout the day. So, even, even email is limited.

Chris Williamson 1:16:39 Fantastic. Well, I've got, coming up soon, I've got the CEO of thelightphone.com.

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:16:45 Which is a really interesting device, which is discussed by Tristan. And he, basically, it's a, a phone which allows you to call nine numbers and it forwards on-

Michael Cazayoux 1:16:54 (gasps)

Chris Williamson 1:16:54 ... from, it forwards on from your other phone. It tells you the time and who's ringing you, if they ring. You don't need a new SIM card. You don't need anything. You leave your phone at home and you take that one out and it's, if you're doing a weekend away with the family, it'll last for four days because it doesn't do anything.

Michael Cazayoux 1:17:09 Wow.

Chris Williamson 1:17:10 And, yeah, I think mindful tech-

Michael Cazayoux 1:17:12 That's cool.

Chris Williamson 1:17:12 ... mindful tech is definitely going to be an emerging field. I think it's really, really cool that you're, that you've stumbled upon it yourself. Um, I think that's, that's, uh, yeah, that's def- definitely very admirable. So, we got halfway through you saying what your Instagram handle is that you will check at some point in the future probably.

Michael Cazayoux 1:17:30 Yeah, probably.

Chris Williamson 1:17:31 (laughs)

Michael Cazayoux 1:17:31 But the, but, but (laughs) as it says in the book, if nothing bad happens as a result of you stopping, just stop all together.

Chris Williamson 1:17:38 Absolutely.

Michael Cazayoux 1:17:38 But it's, it's my full name. It's @michaelcazayoux. That's C-A-Z-A-Y-O-U-X. Send me a direct message. If I, if I open it and there's a bunch of 'em, I'll probably answer 'em all.

Chris Williamson 1:17:49 Sweet.

Michael Cazayoux 1:17:50 Uh, you can, you can also find my wife's company @workingagainstgravity. I am also a team member on that company as well, that's a nutrition consulting company.

Chris Williamson 1:18:00 Fantastic. Mike, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it, dude. Um, good luck with your jiu-jitsu as you chase me-

Michael Cazayoux 1:18:06 Thank you, bruv.

Chris Williamson 1:18:07 ... up in the next few weeks. And good luck to your athletes as well.

Michael Cazayoux 1:18:09 I appreciate it.

Chris Williamson 1:18:10 With the, with the upcoming season.

Michael Cazayoux 1:18:11 Yeah, this was a real pleasure. I l- I love how, uh, how conversational it is and how you just go deep. It's awesome.

Chris Williamson 1:18:17 Thank you, man. Thank you very much. Cheers, dude.