Navy Seal To CIA Contractor - Shawn Ryan

Shawn Ryan 0:00 It's great that you're getting ready for all these things that might happen, maybe, one day, but you're 150 pounds overweight and you don't even know how to use a defibrillator. They don't like it when you tell them that, but that's the real threat. "I'm just gonna jump on my rooftop with all my guns." And it's like, "How the hell are you even gonna get up there?"

Chris Williamson 0:15 (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 0:16 You know? (laughs) I, I mean, I'd like to see you try.

Chris Williamson 0:20 Sean Ryan, welcome to the show.

Shawn Ryan 0:21 Thanks for having me. You got a helluva show here.

Chris Williamson 0:24 Thank you, man-

Shawn Ryan 0:24 It's awesome.

Chris Williamson 0:24 ... I appreciate that. Thank you. Navy SEAL, CIA contractor, personal security expert, guy that helped train Keanu Reeves to be John Wick. That... The headlines, those are the big ones?

Shawn Ryan 0:39 That's, that's the big ones.

Chris Williamson 0:40 Yeah?

Shawn Ryan 0:40 Yep.

Chris Williamson 0:41 Good. What's Keanu Reeves like in real life?

Shawn Ryan 0:44 He is very soft-spoken. Uh, he's a very good listener, very good student. We didn't really trade too many stories or anything. He just came out to train and, and I kept it extremely professional. And, um... But he was r- He's a very intelligent guy. He picks things up really quick.

Chris Williamson 1:04 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Ryan 1:04 He's serious about what he's doing. And, uh, he's... Honestly, he's one of the best students or people that I've ever trained. He just really picks up on things.

Chris Williamson 1:14 What makes for a good student of somebody that wants to learn about protection, weapons, aggression, precision?

Shawn Ryan 1:22 It doesn't take much. It takes a good listener. You c- In that industry, you get a lot of people that come out who have been... They like to say they've been shooting since they were five, or they've been hunting since they were, you know, were walking. And they always have these stories, and it's, "This is how I do it. This is how I've always done it." But when you get a guy like Keanu, or a lot of women are like this too, they just... They're like a sponge. They just retain. They listen, they retain the information, and all they're worried about is what you're saying-

Chris Williamson 1:58 Doing it right.

Shawn Ryan 1:58 ... and what you're doing. And that's what makes a good student. It's not with shooting. It's not... You know, you don't need to be an athlete. You don't need to be super intelligent or anything like that. You just need to be able to listen, and, and be able to retain information and set your ego aside.

Chris Williamson 2:16 I did a firearms and fitness course at Atomic Legion out here in Austin. So they do, uh, weapons training. They've got a grandmaster shooter on the books, a guy called Alex Acosta. He's a fucking animal. And, uh, we did this firearms and fitness thing, so picking up a sandbag, do two laps, dump the sandbag, take three shots. If you hit the three shots, you get more shots and scores and blo- within this time window. And you can extend the time window if you're more accurate and all this sort of stuff. And, uh, I had my arse handed to me by, like, mothers of three.

Shawn Ryan 2:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:47 55-year-old mothers of three. Because they're able to... I was fitter than them, but their ability to be precise and to be able to control themselves under pressure, uh, and obviously the shooting experience, which, being a Brit, I haven't got tons of. But yeah, it was, it was fascinating to see. And then those videos of Keanu, it's from, what was it, five years ago, six years ago, when those ones went, like, hyper, hyper viral from Taran?

Shawn Ryan 3:08 It's been a, it's been a while.

Chris Williamson 3:09 Yeah. But the one where he was switching between all of those different weapons. He's got... That is...

Shawn Ryan 3:14 Yeah, that was the first. I think that was the first John Wick.

Chris Williamson 3:17 Oh, okay. So he's been that skilled and then probably got even more skilled as he keeps going through.

Shawn Ryan 3:22 Yeah, I can't take credit for teaching him how to shoot. I taught him how to clear a room.

Chris Williamson 3:26 Okay.

Shawn Ryan 3:27 How to-

Chris Williamson 3:27 And what, what was the... What were the main things that you were trying to get him to be accurate with that?

Shawn Ryan 3:32 I just wanted to help him look realistic when he was entering a room or kicking doors in, 'cause, you know, 'cause it's a fast-paced, very action, you know, movie. And so I wanted to help bring a realistic standpoint. That's what I got asked to do out there. Taran asked me to just teach him how to clear a room.

Chris Williamson 3:52 Mm-hmm.

Shawn Ryan 3:52 So I said, "All right, let's do it."

Chris Williamson 3:54 Cool, man.

Shawn Ryan 3:54 And we did.

Chris Williamson 3:55 So I had this... Uh, I saw this news

Chris Williamson 3:57 article I wanted to have a chat with you about. So this is from Bloomberg. Critics and fans have never disagreed more about movies. When Sony released its film adaptation of the video game Uncharted in February, critics were quick, quick to tear it apart. The Wall Street Journal called it "bloodless, heartless, joyless, sexless, and, with one exception, charmless." New York Magazine de- (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 4:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:13 ... deemed it "curiously empty." Moviefreak.com dismissed it as a "bona fide disaster." And yet audiences ate it up. The movie, which stars Tom Holland and Mark Wahlberg, opened to a $44.2 million at the box office and went on to gross 401 million worldwide. It's one of the 10 highest-grossing movies of the year. Uncharted also initiated one of the biggest disputes between critics and fans in modern movie history. Audiences have given higher scores than critics to all 10 of the year's biggest movies. The average audience score for Jurassic World Dominion on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb is 67. The critic score is 34, so a difference of 33 points. The Gray Man is the same. Uncharted is the same, disagreeing by more than 30 points. It may seem as though critics, uh, typically pan the year's biggest hits, but that's not the case. Sometimes audiences tend to give blockbusters higher scores. It can also be the other way around. The thing that I think is interesting about this is how detached the people in positions of power, whether that be in media, whether that be in legislature, the, um, gap between what the normal person likes and enjoys and wants and what the critics think that they should want, perhaps, or what they believe would be good for the plebeians to actually want-

Shawn Ryan 5:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:31 ... seems to be diverging more and more. What do you think?

Shawn Ryan 5:33 I 100% agree with you on that. I, I feel like there's an agenda, you know, behind everything that comes out now. And I don't know exactly where that comes from, but it is not from the audience. And I think it's, it's disconnected Hollywood so much that... I mean, it, it hurt their bank accounts real bad. And, and you're starting to see more A-list celebrities moving...... to the podcast world because nobody's watching their movies anymore. They're starting to see them move into Amazon and Netflix series and not Hollywood. They're starting to see them, uh, produce their own stuff, because nobody's watching. Nobody's watching that stuff anymore, because it was so agenda-driven.

Chris Williamson 6:20 Well, we saw this with, I think it was the Oscars last year, that most of ... Was it Nomadland, I think, that cleaned up? It might have been the O- Oscars or the Golden Globes, one of the awards ceremonies. And all of the films that were doing well in the box office, you can al- it's almost an inversion. If it does well at the box office, it's probably not going to do well at the awards. And if it does well at the awards, it's probably not gonna do well in the box office. I think the last one, someone brought it up, that did, managed to do both was Dark Knight: Batman. Um, but yeah, when you think about l- all the Marvel movies, stuff like that, the only one that got rated well was Black Panther. Th- th- great movie, but there's an agenda there.

Shawn Ryan 6:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:58 Right? You know, it's a signal to people.

Shawn Ryan 7:01 I, I, part of me... Look, I g- I do understand the whole diversity thing. But when, when you make it the point of the movie to shove diversity down everybody's throat, it doesn't work. And then, you look at a movie like Top Gun that came out. Everything was in there, right? It was, there was all the diversity, but that wasn't the point of the movie. The point of the movie was fighter pilots, the USA. You know, it was very... I think it was a very patriotic movie, and look what happened. It was... It just smashed everything in its way. And everything that needed to be in there to make everybody happy was in there, you know? And, and, I think that's... That should be the example.

Chris Williamson 7:46 My friend, Douglas, has a, an idea about how you can tell when a minority is fully absorbed into a culture, and he says, "It's when you have to put up with the same amount of shit that everybody else does."

Shawn Ryan 7:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:59 And-

Shawn Ryan 8:00 That's a great quote.

Chris Williamson 8:01 ... it's a lovely way to think about it, right? The fact that what you actually want is for people to not care anymore, to not care the fact that you're Black or gay or trans or w- y- d- disabled, whatever, right? That is the position you want to get yourself into. And you know that when there is a degree of just day-to-day bullshit that you have to put up with that everybody else does too. And I think that you're right. When, um, diversity is made a point, it almost seems patronizing to the people that it's trying to, uh, put at the forefront. It's like, "Well, you, y- your position in society isn't sufficiently deserving, or you wouldn't be given this if we didn't make it a big deal." It's like, no, no, no, no. Like, you just... If the lead actor is a Black man, let's not... How about we don't reference the fact that he's Black?

Shawn Ryan 8:45 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 8:46 How about he's just the lead guy? And you see this with the James Bond discussion, right, all the time. Like, what would it be like to have the first female James Bond or the first Black James Bond or the first gay James Bond or whatever?

Shawn Ryan 8:57 Yeah. Why don't you just make a new series?

Chris Williamson 8:59 A, a new James Bond. Whoever's the good James Bond. So yeah, it's, um, it's an interesting one, man. I think that the more the elites become out of touch with what normal people want, the more that you're going to see... the less faith normal people are gonna have in what they do.

Shawn Ryan 9:19 I th- I think that's why, I think that's why YouTube and, and, and podcasting is getting so big, because it's the, it's one of the only spaces left that's, I guess, semi-unfiltered, right?

Chris Williamson 9:32 Yeah, un-molested.

Shawn Ryan 9:33 Yeah. So it's, I'm, it's sad to see it go that way, but it's been going that way for a, uh, long time. And, um, but hey, it's good for us, right?

Chris Williamson 9:44 One of my friends sent me that news article. He said, "The spiraling lunacy of elites shows up in the most benign places." You know, right? Uh, Rotten Tomatoes is pretty fucking benign as far as it goes. But yeah, man, it'll be interesting to see what happens. And y- y-... One of the problems you have is with a medium like podcasting, uh, and even Instagram Stories to a degree as well, what you got with Instagram Stories was a very unfiltered look at people that were super, super high status. So you got to see what Kanye West's dog was called, right? Or like, Kim Kardashian's Starbucks order or whatever. Like, it doesn't matter about what it is. The point being that it gave you a degree of transparency into the lives of people that previously would have been so untouchable. But that kind of, that transparency means that people need to be more real, because our ability to tune in to whether or not someone is bullshitting us has been now filtered and filtered and filtered a lot more tightly.

Shawn Ryan 10:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:39 So you see somebody come out and try and give some press conference, or you even watch, you know, a late night show now where you've got the two-minute segment to get out what it is that you need to get out, and it just feels so strained. It almost feels scripted, and it might be. You know, all the... You guys have the late night shows. We don't quite have the same thing over here, where they'll come on and say, "Oh, so are you gonna do a squirrel impression? Let me see your squirrel impression." Like, yo, you, you prepped fucking squirrel impressions-

Shawn Ryan 11:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:03 ... backstage before you do this. And it just seems so clunky, and, and it doesn't surprise me that people don't have faith.

Shawn Ryan 11:12 Yeah. I 100% agree with you on that. I also... I don't know how to say this lightly, but I feel like the population is just getting dumber. And I think if you look at some of the stuff, 'cause I, I mean, we're both, you know, in the same space, um, basically. And so, I'm always studying social media, what's taking off, what's not taking off, and, and looking at, you know, everybody else, what's taking off for them. And when I see w- If you go to YouTube Trending, you know, or you look at what the Explore tab is gonna show you on Instagram or TikTok, it's mindless bullshit. It, it doesn't, there's, it doesn't make any sense. And when it comes to podcasts like yours and like mine, I mean, th- there's some deep discussions that happen, and you have to pay attention. And I don't think...I think there's a percentage of the population that cannot comprehend the conversation that we're having.

Chris Williamson 12:14 We're starting to have a diverging group there as well. That being said, people want whatever is effective, and I think that the people that are able to pay attention, that are able to have interesting conversations and l- learn about a point of view that they maybe don't agree with without losing their shit at it, those people will end up being in a much better place in life.

Shawn Ryan 12:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:35 So, the people that don't have that are going to fall behind, and people model the behavior of people that are successful. So, I'm hoping that you'll lead from the front, the people that are prepared to accept their own ignorance and say, "I- I don't know. Why don't you teach me? I'd love to find out about Rotten Tomatoes or whatever, how we're gonna engineer human DNA for space flight," or whatever the fuck it is. My- my friend, uh, the same guy actually that sent me that article's got a- a theory that he calls the midwit appeal theorem. By definition, most people are midwits, therefore nothing can achieve mass significance without appealing to and allowing itself to be explained by midwits. If that's the bulk of the area under the curve, people that think that they have a degree of smart but don't know just how dumb they are, that means that all of the stuff that takes off is going to appeal to them by definition, and if you're out on the tails, it can make you feel a bit lonely. This is something I had when I was back in the UK a little bit, that I was like, "I have all of these interests and I kinda don't really have many people to talk to about them." That kinda sucks.

Shawn Ryan 13:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:34 Um, but then you find, oh, hang on, there is a huge community of people in the world that want just to learn about stuff constantly, the rest of their life, until they're dead.

Shawn Ryan 13:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:43 Always learning, always curious.

Shawn Ryan 13:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:46 It's awesome. So,

Chris Williamson 13:48 I was thinking about all of the stuff that you've done throughout your career, SEALs, CIA, personal security. A lot of those things... There is, there seems to be two types of narratives to do with people that go to war. One is that it's one of the most important things that we do, sending these people on the front lines, but then there is also situations like withdrawal from Afghanistan, like, lack of success in other areas, especially in the Middle East for- for America, and there was a question that I thought of which is, do you think it's more scary that everything that you do matters or that nothing that you do matters?

Shawn Ryan 14:28 That's a good question. I would rather everything matters. Um, I- I don't know... I don't know what it would be like if nothing mattered. Um, I would think that would be a very unfulfilling way to live. Would you agree?

Chris Williamson 14:44 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 14:46 Yeah. So, e- even right now I think everything that I do matters. So, I- I can't... I don't... For me, I- I wouldn't be happy if I was doing stuff that I didn't think mattered. Uh, it would be a very unfulfilling life.

Chris Williamson 15:04 It's a dangerous position to get yourself into. That's where nihilism starts to creep in.

Shawn Ryan 15:08 I mean, what do you... What do you feel good about if nothing you're doing matters? You just... I mean, I get- we see it all the time, you know, people just skating by, but I don't think they really have anything good to f- you know, to feel about, or they're not really proud of anything, and- and, uh, I would... That would bother me a lot.

Chris Williamson 15:29 It's a way to escape though, because there's a pressure associated with having everything that you do matter, right? And an easy way to escape from that is to say, "Well, look, nothing does. I don't need to take responsibility for everything." And there's a bunch of ways that people can escape from this, you know, whether it's not believing that free will exists, whether it's believing that humanity is a curse on the Earth and is doomed and- that we need to limit our ecological impact as much as possible. Whichever route you go down, from the philosophical to the ecological to the scientific to the transhumanist, all of these are different ways, I think, to make people feel better about the fact that they're scared that nothing that they do matters.

Shawn Ryan 16:11 Yeah. I... You know, I've heard you talk a lot about psychedelics on here, and I've done psychedelics, uh, for treatment, not for fun, and I will say that before I did that treatment, everything was a huge deal. Even the things that I didn't think were a huge deal, or- or, uh, I'm sorry, even things that I thought that were a huge deal, after I did the psychedelic treatment, I realized, you know, not all this shit is an- is as important as I-

Chris Williamson 16:44 So it gave you some perspective?

Shawn Ryan 16:45 It gave me a lot of perspective that I needed.

Chris Williamson 16:48 Would you mind explaining what you did in terms of your course of treatment?

Shawn Ryan 16:52 Uh, I did... I did ibogaine. Have you heard of that?

Chris Williamson 16:55 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 16:56 I did ibogaine and then I did 5-MeO, and I did that about six months ago. When I did it, I haven't- I haven't drank since. I saw you did 1,000 days clean.

Chris Williamson 17:06 I did, yes.

Shawn Ryan 17:07 And, um, I haven't had a drop of alcohol, haven't had a drop of coffee. My anxiety is gone. I used to struggle with that a lot. My anger issues are gone, and I (laughs) I really struggled with that a lot, uh, coming out of the military and the agency and just getting back into civilian life. And so... And it helped me become more in the moment, which was my primary reason to go do that, was, uh, uh, I now have a one-year-old and, uh, I just wanted to be i- in the moment with him.

Chris Williamson 17:40 Would you class whatever it was that you were feeling like as PTSD, or is this a... How would you say? A conditioned response to life from being a high-level operator for a long time?

Shawn Ryan 17:57 Both.

Chris Williamson 17:57 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 17:58 I think both. Head injuries, PTSD.

Chris Williamson 18:02 What head injuries? Where do head injuries come from in your line of work?

Shawn Ryan 18:05 Uh, (sighs) blown up, falling out of helicopters, stuff like that.

Chris Williamson 18:09 You've fallen out of helicopters?

Shawn Ryan 18:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:10 How high?

Shawn Ryan 18:11 ... oh, maybe 10 feet.

Chris Williamson 18:12 Okay.

Shawn Ryan 18:12 You know, not too crazy. Maybe-

Chris Williamson 18:14 But enough-

Shawn Ryan 18:14 ... a little higher, but-

Chris Williamson 18:15 ... enough, enough to land on your head and, and it, uh-

Shawn Ryan 18:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:18 What about bl- what's blown up mean? When have you been blown up?

Shawn Ryan 18:21 I've been blown up in sniper hides where we've been mortared, and you're just getting these concussions. You're blown doors. You know, you're, when you're in, when you're in a SEAL team, when you enter a room, a lot of times, there's a explosive charge that you do to, to breach the door, and, uh, gives you the element of surprise and lets you in immediately. And so the concussion from that coming back.

Chris Williamson 18:45 That's just the shockwave?

Shawn Ryan 18:46 The shockwave.

Chris Williamson 18:46 Even if you're not blown off your feet, you're still maybe even able to operate within two seconds of that happening?

Shawn Ryan 18:51 Well, a lot of ti- I mean, you feel it, but you don't realize the long-term damage that it's causing. And so, you know, any- everything from Carl Gustaf rounds, rocket launchers, um, breaches, explosives, blowing cars up, blowing bridges up, blowing... You name it, we've blown it up and, and at close distances and, and just the life of that, you know, just taking that impact over and over and over and over and over again. I mean, I think you're only supposed to shoot two or three Carl Gustaf rounds.

Chris Williamson 19:22 What's a Carl Gustaf round?

Shawn Ryan 19:23 It's a huge rocket launcher. It's like, if you think of Bazooka, that's what the Carl Dust- Carl Gustaf is.

Chris Williamson 19:31 And what, what do you use it for?

Shawn Ryan 19:33 You can use it for anti-personnel, guys in caves. You can use it on vehicles. You can use it all ki- on all kinds of stuff. They're kind of outdated now. Now they have the Javelin.

Chris Williamson 19:44 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 19:44 But, um, in my day, that was just, just kind of shown up.

Chris Williamson 19:49 Well, I suppose what I've seen of the Javelin, it sort of jumps out of the barrel and then seems to take off. Is that right?

Shawn Ryan 19:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:57 Is that how the Javelins work? So I'm gonna guess one of the elements that that will be d- for is to try and protect the operator a little bit more-

Shawn Ryan 20:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:03 ... so that you don't have that immediate explosion in the chamber itself?

Shawn Ryan 20:08 Yeah. I've act- I've never shot a Javelin, so I don't, I can't speak on the-

Chris Williamson 20:13 You can't compare.

Shawn Ryan 20:13 ... experience from that. I'm too old for that. (laughs) But, um, but the Gustaf is some heavy impact, and the breaching charges are heavy impact, and getting blown up in hides is heavy impact. And, and, um, anyways, that's where the brain injuries come from.

Chris Williamson 20:29 You joined when you were 18, right?

Shawn Ryan 20:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:31 What, what was the predisposition that you had there, uh, and what w- what was learned behavior that you got throughout your entire career? I'm trying to work out which bits of you remained and which bits of you were deprogrammed through two decades of being an operator.

Shawn Ryan 20:51 That's good. I don't, um-

Chris Williamson 20:52 What about the aggression? Like, was there aggression in there? Was there this shortness? Was there this over-reliance or over-, um, importance on everything being a big deal? Was that always there?

Shawn Ryan 21:06 No. That was learned. That came, um... It, there's a lot of pressure being on a team, and the pressure is don't let your team down. And so everything needs to be done. If you're not doing anything, you should be doing something. Make yourself busy. Go, you know, get X, Y, and Z done. And so, and when you do let the team down, you know it, and it, it's, it's a horrible feeling, and, and they let you know that too, that you've let them down.

Chris Williamson 21:35 What were some examples of, of a time when you did something that you felt was letting the team down?

Shawn Ryan 21:41 Um... On my first deployment, I was a booze hound. We weren't, we did not go to war, and I was pretty upset about that. And so I took to the booze, uh, very heavy. But we still needed to train, and we still needed to keep sharp, and we needed to be ready in case we needed to relieve a platoon, you know, if s- if, uh, if they took casualties. And my boozing got out of control, and the platoon let me know immediately, uh, that it was getting out of control. And I woke up with couple of them surrounding my rack where I was sleeping, and, uh, in the middle of the night. (laughs) And, uh...

Chris Williamson 22:30 And you were half-cut at this point? Still drunk?

Shawn Ryan 22:32 Half what?

Chris Williamson 22:33 Cut, like still drunk?

Shawn Ryan 22:34 Oh, no, I was sober here.

Chris Williamson 22:35 Okay. This was a night when you hadn't been up?

Shawn Ryan 22:36 Yep.

Chris Williamson 22:36 Okay. Yep.

Shawn Ryan 22:37 I was sober here. And, uh, you know, they tune you up a little bit and-

Chris Williamson 22:41 What's that mean?

Shawn Ryan 22:43 ... kick your ass around a little bit-

Chris Williamson 22:45 Okay.

Shawn Ryan 22:45 ... let you know, you know, "Hey, you're fucking up and you need to s- get your shit together now."

Chris Williamson 22:50 Physically?

Shawn Ryan 22:51 Yep.

Chris Williamson 22:52 Wow. So this is an enforcement mechanism that's commonly used?

Shawn Ryan 22:57 Used to be very common. Um, now I don't think it is as common. But, um, yeah, it used to be no questions asked. If you're, if you have a problem and it's, it's getting in the way of the team, then you're gonna be dealt with.

Chris Williamson 23:16 This is some Full Metal Jacket shit. That's what it sounds like.

Shawn Ryan 23:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:21 How do you go back to being an effective pairing in a team after a bunch of people have just woken you up in the middle of the night and kicked the shit out of you?

Shawn Ryan 23:32 Well, you, you know, it's not... Like I said, it's not uncommon, you know. It's, it's, it was very common. And so you never really... I mean, as much as, as a disappointment, uh, as you are, there's no time for... There's no time to dwell. There's not really any time for grudges, and everybody gets out of line eventually. You know? So I wasn't the first one that it happened to. I wasn't the last one that hap- happened to. And, um, so you can't take it personal. You just need to be... And they do that in training too, you know? I mean, you're brought... Like I said, or like you said, I joined when I was 18, and so this all starts day one-

Chris Williamson 24:14 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 24:15 ... you know, in BUD/S. And you're letting...You're letting the team down, because even though it's not technically, you know, a SEAL team, you're still, you're training with a handful of guys, and if the instructors call you out, and they're like, "All right, we're gonna run that four miles again because Sean didn't wanna put out. He wanted to half-ass it," then you have your entire class that fucking hates your guts 'cause they're gonna run that four miles again. Or, you know, whatever evolution it is, "We're gonna run the O course again. We're gonna get back in that cold water again until somebody quits because so-and-so was cheating."

Chris Williamson 24:52 Wow. So they'll do-

Shawn Ryan 24:54 They will single you out in front of everybody. And so by the time you get to the team, you're used to that.

Chris Williamson 25:00 Yes.

Shawn Ryan 25:00 And, and they do it even if, if you're in BUD/S, you may be the fastest swimmer, and if they see that you're not helping somebody out, helping the team out, but you finish first, they're gonna pull you out and make everybody do the swim again. Except you. Because you didn't help anybody.

Chris Williamson 25:18 So you're going to be sat on the sidelines-

Shawn Ryan 25:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:20 ... which makes you look like even more of a dick.

Shawn Ryan 25:22 While everybody else is suffering.

Chris Williamson 25:26 Did they do that during BUD/S where they would put everybody in the water until someone quits?

Shawn Ryan 25:34 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:35 That seems like such a brutal practice.

Shawn Ryan 25:37 It i- (laughs) it is. I don't think that that's actually the a- the ... That's what they tell you, but everything in BUD/S is, um, it, it's very structured. It's, they don't have time to s- 'cause if nobody quits, you know-

Chris Williamson 25:54 You're gonna waste a full, a full day-

Shawn Ryan 25:56 ... they have, it's down-

Chris Williamson 25:56 ... of this, and you're not-

Shawn Ryan 25:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:57 ... gonna test people on whatever else they need to- Yeah, that's a good point.

Shawn Ryan 26:00 Somebody will always quit. But then when you get, you know, farther into BUD/S, especially like the third day of Hell Week, it starts getting harder for guys to quit because you're already zoned out and you've gone through 75% of the quitters already.

Chris Williamson 26:12 Yes.

Shawn Ryan 26:12 And so when there's only, you know, 25 guys left in the class outta 250, those are your, they aren't going anywhere.

Chris Williamson 26:21 You're b- a lot more bound together as well, I suppose.

Shawn Ryan 26:23 Yes.

Chris Williamson 26:23 You know, one person leaving from 250 versus one person leaving from 25-

Shawn Ryan 26:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:27 ... is gonna, there's more pressure on them. Yeah, that's ... So what else, what else changed from you, you at 18 to you several decades later?

Shawn Ryan 26:39 Attention to detail changed a lot. I bec- I was not attention to detail before I went in. Now I'm ex- very attention to detail because getting tuned up, missing minor mistakes or, or not even necessarily half-assing things, but just missing small things, or, or you forget something, but-

Chris Williamson 27:00 And the stakes are incredibly high.

Shawn Ryan 27:01 Yeah. Um, a lot has changed. A lot has changed. My temper has changed. My-

Chris Williamson 27:08 How so?

Shawn Ryan 27:10 Uh, before the psychedelics, I would get very, I would say I was angry more than I was happy. You know, um, experienced a lot of loss, you ex- a lot of trauma in a, in a job like that. And, um, makes you angry. Makes you angry to see people take this country for granted, you know, after all the sacrifices that you've seen, that you've made, that friends died, you know.

Chris Williamson 27:38 What's an example of that? Where you got angry about people taking the country for granted?

Shawn Ryan 27:45 Self-entitlement is a big one. You know, you see a lot of people, you s- Right now, we see everybody getting college tuition, you know, paid for with the new administration, which, on one hand, I think that's great, you know, because we're finally, somebody's pumping money back into our own country instead of sending it all to Ukraine and everywhere else in the world. But, um, on the other hand, you know, there's gu- that was an incentive, you know, for guys to join the military. "Hey, you join the military, we'll pay into the GI bill, we'll take care of your college." Well, now that's not worth shit because college is free. So how does that make you feel?

Chris Williamson 28:22 Is that what's actually happening now? I thought that it was a $10,000-

Shawn Ryan 28:26 I think it's different.

Chris Williamson 28:28 ... stipend.

Shawn Ryan 28:28 I'm not, I'm not too familiar with the, with the bill.

Chris Williamson 28:31 Got you.

Shawn Ryan 28:32 You know, they're coming out with so many of them, I can't keep up anymore. But, um, but I know, I've seen a lot of people that I know, I saw one guy post on his Twitter, you know, that his tuition was his legs, and th- it makes him sick that they're gonna pay everybody else's, and, and-

Chris Williamson 28:50 This is somebody that's got double prosthetics now.

Shawn Ryan 28:52 Yep. Yep. So anyways, you know, and then they complain more. "Well, you need to pay for this. You need to pay for this. I'm entitled to this. I'm entitled to this." And you come home and that's, that's, that's what you see 'cause that's what's in the m- in the media, you know, and it, it can build. For me, it builds resentment, um-

Chris Williamson 29:14 Mm.

Shawn Ryan 29:14 ... a lot of guys, I think, can, can, can overlook it. I'm still working on that.

Chris Williamson 29:19 (laughs) Well-

Shawn Ryan 29:19 Psychedelics have helped a lot, but-

Chris Williamson 29:21 ... I think, uh, if you've made huge amounts of sacrifices, whether that be physical, psychological, social, familial, inevitably you're going to feel the delta between how difficult life has been for you and the things that you've had to go through and the supposed victimhood of other people. I, it makes complete sense that that would be the sort of thing that would get you angry.

Shawn Ryan 29:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:46 And the psychedelics have had a, a significant impact on that?

Shawn Ryan 29:49 Major impact. Major im- It doesn't matter, you know. Th- that's what it taught me, is that you can't control it, and it doesn't matter. It really doesn't.

Chris Williamson 29:58 I mean, you're a smart guy though. You've learned about Stoicism and the dichotomy of control, and you know, you can't control the things you can't control, so focus on the things that you can. Is there a limit, logically, rationally, that you can get to? Like, you can read as many Ryan Holiday books as you want about Stoicism, but it seems like...You, you, this was a problem you couldn't think your way through. You actually needed something to kind of take you an extra step.

Shawn Ryan 30:24 I was letting all of it get to me. I was letting people kneeling for the flag, you know, we'd come, we'd go over there-

Chris Williamson 30:30 Was that a big trigger for you?

Shawn Ryan 30:30 Oh, yeah. That was a major trigger for me, watching people kneel for the national anthem. Uh, was, was, it was huge for me. I mean, I, I, I can't count how many funerals that I've gone to where, you know, guys have died for this country. And then you come home and you've got athletes making $60 million a year. You know, what do they have to complain about? Kneeling for the national anthem. I mean, it's, it's sickening, you know, and it, and it bothers a lot of us. Um, I, I may be a little more vocal about it, but, uh-

Chris Williamson 31:08 Well, I'm gonna guess most veterans don't have the same sort of platform as well, you know?

Shawn Ryan 31:13 Yeah. They don't. But those are some of the things, you know, that you, you come home and, and, and you see that stuff. You know, you see all of it. You see rioting in the streets, you see... all that stuff.

Chris Williamson 31:29 Well, the lawlessness that you guys were trying to-

Shawn Ryan 31:31 Keep out of here, and now it's right here within. (laughs) You know?

Chris Williamson 31:35 Yeah, the call's coming from inside the house.

Shawn Ryan 31:36 So, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:38 Okay. So SEALs, you get through that. You only do a few years in the SEALs, is that right? How long are you there?

Shawn Ryan 31:43 Six years.

Chris Williamson 31:43 Six years, yeah. Uh, then you decide to pivot from the SEALs to the CIA. What led to that decision?

Shawn Ryan 31:51 Actually, I pivoted to a real estate agent after that.

Chris Williamson 31:55 Of course.

Shawn Ryan 31:55 And, uh, that did not... That went over like a fart in church.

Chris Williamson 31:59 (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 32:00 But, uh, I just didn't have the communication skills, and I was coming right out of, uh, Iraq at that time.

Chris Williamson 32:06 What was the reason for leaving to go do real estate? Money?

Shawn Ryan 32:10 The reason I left, uh, the SEAL team, the big reason is I saw... I looked at all the older guys that had been around for a long time, and I started realizing none of these guys are married. Most of these guys don't even know their kids. Most of them come home to a black lab every night, or some type of a, uh, dog, pet, you know, and, and I could see how lonely that would be. And so I lo- I decided I don't wanna spend my entire career here because I want to have a family. And, um, at least I thought I did.

Chris Williamson 32:47 You're 24 at this age?

Shawn Ryan 32:49 24, I think.

Chris Williamson 32:50 There's a lot of self-awareness going on there.

Shawn Ryan 32:52 Yeah. Well, I mean, you grow up real fast, you know, in the SEAL teams. That's, you know, kind of what I was talking about earlier. And, uh, so I saw that, and that was a major factor. Another thing was I started seeing politics, uh, come into the SEAL teams, and I didn't like that.

Chris Williamson 33:08 How so?

Shawn Ryan 33:10 It was... It was... When I went to... My first combat deployment was right after Red Wings happened. And, uh-

Chris Williamson 33:28 What was Red Wings, for the people that don't know?

Shawn Ryan 33:28 Red Wings was, uh, the Marcus Luttrell op, uh, Lone Survivor, if you've seen that movie.

Chris Williamson 33:33 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 33:34 That was Red Wings. Came in, uh, relieved them, and whoever was up higher, you know, was pulling us off missions, literally just saying, "Uh, w- you're not doing that. You're not doing that." They actually ended the entire Afghanistan deployment for all SEALs early. Uh, that was my deployment, so I volunteered to go to Iraq. And, uh, I, that was just such a disappointment, uh, at the time because you, you train hard, you know, y- to go and do that job. And when you show up and you don't do the job that you've been training for very much and it's happening everywhere around you, that is infuriating. And, and so that, that was a, that was a factor. That had to do with politics. Um, but the major thing was the family stuff. I just, I saw it, and I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna end up with, uh, be 45 years old coming home to a black lab and that's it.

Chris Williamson 34:36 I had this, uh, idea I thought about a little while ago. So the place that I grew up in the UK was fantastic. Mom and Dad were amazing. But it was, uh, not a lot of people were like me necessarily, and not a lot of people were, uh, living the sort of life longer term that I felt was right. I didn't really know that it was wrong, but I just felt like there was something off. And I was thinking about (clears throat) a lot of the time, I'll hear from people who don't have role models around them, and that's why they resonate with stuff that they consume online because they finally get a community of admirable people that they can look up to that maybe they don't feel like they've got in their local environment. But what I realized is that a negative role model, an example of someone that you don't want to be like, is just as useful as someone that you do, because you can get a long way in life by just avoiding disaster and catastrophe. In fact, you could maybe even say that avoiding it is more important than getting things right. Like, not getting something wrong is a bigger deal than trying to get something right, because the getting something wrong will make you absolutely miserable. Whereas the getting something right, you still can, you can still fuck up. So I think being around guys who maybe didn't have that foresight, 'cause I'm gonna guess, let's say that someone's 45. They, the SEALs haven't been around long enough for them to have had another 20 years of predecessors before them, for them to be able to see the trajectory that they would maybe be on, right?

Shawn Ryan 35:59 Well, also they weren't coming out of... They, we went through a long time period where there was no war, you know, from Vietnam, a couple things in between there, like Somalia, you know, Iran, um, Panama, when we pulled Noriega out, stuff like that, but nothing like ongoing like Vietnam. So until... From Vietnam to-... two- uh, September 11, 2001. You know, there wasn't a whole lot going on. There was a lot-

Chris Williamson 36:26 Chill.

Shawn Ryan 36:27 Yeah. And so, you saw this massive transformation of what... a SEAL, you know, kind of, I wouldn't say looks like, but, um, it was just very different, you know, when September 11th happened, because then you start seeing the trauma. Then it gets very real. You know, prior to that, it was, you know, train hard, play hard, let's have a good time, let's drink some booze. There's not really anything going on in the world. Now, this shit's real, you know? And, and... you know what I'm saying.

Chris Williamson 37:00 So why would you think that... the CIA... wouldn't give you the same 45-year-old Sean with a black lab?

Shawn Ryan 37:11 Well, so, I did (laughs) . But, uh, I got out, and I became a real estate agent. I couldn't stand it, I hated it. Then I got... I, I thought, "Well, I miss the camaraderie," so I got into a fire academy. I was gonna be a firefighter. And then I realized... well, I didn't realize, they basically told me that, "You're not gonna get a job for two years after this."

Chris Williamson 37:37 It's the same in the UK.

Shawn Ryan 37:38 And, and I started looking around, and, and I realized, if you don't have a grandpa or a dad or a mom or whoever who is in the fire service, you're not getting in. That's... it's pretty tight-knit, and it seems to be very close family ties in that service. And, you know, I was 24, and, and I had a house, and I was like, "Man, I got... I can't sit around here for two years hoping that somebody hires me." So, I had a friend, uh, who reached out and wanted my resume, and he was just like, "Hey, you know, it's contracting." I was like, "Absolutely not. I'm not doing contracting. I don't wanna go back-"

Chris Williamson 38:18 What's contracting mean?

Shawn Ryan 38:19 That was... Con- Uh, so when I was at CIA was a s-... I was a contractor for CIA.

Chris Williamson 38:25 What does that mean?

Shawn Ryan 38:27 It means that you're not working. You're not an employee. They can kind of wash their hands of you. And, um-

Chris Williamson 38:35 So you're the most dispensable people on the team.

Shawn Ryan 38:37 Yeah. I mean, the j- the majority of the agency is contractors. But it's easy to wash your hands of 'em, so it makes sense, right? But, um, but really, for somebody like the audience, there's not really much of a difference. You know, it's kind of just paperwork. But... But anyways, he's, he said, "I can't tell you who it is w- for, you know, but just give me your resume," and I trusted him. He was m-... He was a guy that was in my platoon. We did a couple deployments together. And he's like, "It's not like these other guys," 'cause I'd seen... There's all kinds of different contractors. There's State Department contractors, there's CIA contractors, there's DEA contractors, there's FBI contractors, and there's all these different companies, you know. And, and, um, we would see a lot of the contractors in Baghdad when I got to Iraq. And you hear a lot of rumors. And, and it just wasn't an outfit that I wanted to really be around. Think a lot of... It sounded like a lot of the lesser-known companies were kind of careless. They weren't, they weren't as professional. And, uh, they'd, they were... This was early on in the war, so they were trying to figure out what kind of resume they were looking for and everything. And I just... I was like, "I'm not doing that." You got, you got everybody from SEALs to the guy that was guarding the Bank of America building, you know, just the local bank. And it... So you can see the gaps there. He assured me it wasn't like that, but he said, "It was classified. I can't tell you," so I pitched him my resume. Probably didn't hear anything for about six months, and then I got a call that was... or an email that was, "Hey, fill all this paperwork out. Here's 50 pages of a security clearance. You... And, uh, be here with this equipment for a tryout."

Chris Williamson 40:28 What was the equipment?

Shawn Ryan 40:30 It was just kind of, um, holster, what kind of clothes, you know, what the, what the weather's gonna be like, stuff like that. You know, bring a belt, bring gun holster, bring... equipment to operate in, you know, if you have it. So I put all that in there and went down, and said goodbye to the fire academy, and, and, uh, wound up making it.

Chris Williamson 40:55 So that's the select- CIA selection? I mean, what is that?

Shawn Ryan 40:59 Well, it's... It depends what job you're going for. For mine, it was a very intense shooting package, uh, a lot tougher than the shooting packages I was doing in the SEAL teams. And the difference between the m-... I think the major difference between trying out for a slot like that at the agency and, and trying out for BUD/S is BUD/S, they know you don't know shit when you show up, you know? And they know even when you get done with BUD/S, and you show up to the SEAL team. They know you still don't know shit, you know? And they're there to train you, and heckle you, and, you know, give you a hard time, and, and just develop you, help you develop into the best operator that you can be. When you show up for an agency tryout, they're expecting you to have all these skills wired tight, you know? So there is no, "Let me help you with that." There's "Perform this task to the best of your ability, and w- we're gonna watch," yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:59 Can you give us an example of the sort of tasks that were in there?

Shawn Ryan 42:03 Um, yeah, like... shooting, you know? They would... You'd just... "Everybody show up on the 25-yard line." "Okay." "There's your target. I want you to hit it as fast as you can, on the buzzer." Boom. And they have standards, but you don't know what the standard is. So you're just going to the best of your ability.

Chris Williamson 42:22 So spread and speed and stuff like that?

Shawn Ryan 42:24 Yup, yeah. All of that. And it's, it's the kind of...... it would be the kind of shooting drill that you're just not gonna pass if you... You're not gonna pass it if you don't know what you're doing.

Chris Williamson 42:34 But you've been dicking about, fighting fires and chopping stuff and practicing saving kittens out of trees and going home to your house. Y- are you out of practice at this stage?

Shawn Ryan 42:44 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:46 (laughs) How the fuck did you pass then?

Shawn Ryan 42:48 I just did, you know? I just, I guess I just, I was still young, you know, and, and I like shooting, you know, so I just lucked out. And I think that... I think they wanted me, you know? Because they... There's a reason they don't tell you the exact standard. It gives them a little leeway. If they don't like you-

Chris Williamson 43:10 Very nice.

Shawn Ryan 43:11 ... you know, you're out.

Chris Williamson 43:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Ryan 43:12 And, uh-

Chris Williamson 43:12 And no one can say, "Hang on a second. He got in, but I didn't."

Shawn Ryan 43:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:15 "Even though blah, blah..." Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Ryan 43:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:18 What else-

Shawn Ryan 43:18 As you get in, the, the standards become clearer, 'cause you do have to go through every two years. Or I th- I think it's every two years, um-

Chris Williamson 43:25 Like psychometric evaluation?

Shawn Ryan 43:27 Yep.

Chris Williamson 43:27 ... little bits of...

Shawn Ryan 43:27 Make sure you're still sharp.

Chris Williamson 43:28 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 43:29 And, um, but it's a lot. It's, it's, it's a lot more cut down, you know? It's, it's... You don't have to display all of your skills every single time once you're in. But that initial one, it's-

Chris Williamson 43:41 It's that preheating thing, you know? It totally -

Shawn Ryan 43:41 ... how do you drive, how do you work as a team-

Chris Williamson 43:44 Oh, okay.

Shawn Ryan 43:44 ... how do you shoot, how do you clear this room. "Here's a problem, we want you to solve it. There's a hostage in there, you need to go in and get him, and meet us at this restaurant at whatever time." You know? And so, they're watching all of your problem-solving skills, they're wa- they're watching how you work as a team, they're watching how you lead, they're watching, you know, your tactics. How do you j- how did you enter the room? How did you treat the hostage once you secured the hostage? You know, what was your EVAC route? Why did you choose that route? Did you notice the guy on the corner that was taking pictures of your car and got this license plate right here? You know, and, and all that kinda stuff is happ- They're all... We call them FTXs, field training exercises. But you're just constantly being evaluated the entire time, and, and if you don't measure up, then you're gone. There's no remediation, there's no, "Let's work on this." There's-

Chris Williamson 44:38 Roll it back.

Shawn Ryan 44:38 There's... You don't meet the criteria, you're out, and that's it.

Chris Williamson 44:44 Going into the CIA, I'm gonna guess that their feeder profile must be multiple different organizations, probably people from Green Berets, Marines, SEALs-

Shawn Ryan 44:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:55 ... maybe like NSA, maybe intelligence operators or whatever. Perhaps not so much what you were doing, but I can imagine if someone happened to be an unbelievable translator or something, or had great communication skills, but they knew... Could shoot a bit, maybe they might try and put those in. My point being that it must be strange going from an environment where everybody's been trained differently, different cultures, different backgrounds, different understanding of what it means to clear a room, to communicate, to maybe even different call signs, different signals, all this stuff. What... H- how do you get a melting pot of these people coming from such diverse backgrounds to function at all together?

Shawn Ryan 45:35 That's a great question. (laughs) Um, and it is like that. It's... So the program that I went in, uh, you had to have six years, so I just barely made the requirement. You had to have six years of, uh, special operations experience, and so you... They're taking Delta guys, SEALs, Green Berets, Rangers, and MARSOC guys, with some Air Force PJs and CCT guys. So everybody... You know, we all have the same knowledge, but it's just minor differences. Um, the thing that really got in the way at the beginning was the, uh... What's the word I'm looking for? The, the rivalry between branches. You know, the SEAL... There's always like friendly rivalry and unfriendly rivalry. "You know, we're better than them at this, and d-..." And a lot of egos, right? A lot of eight personalities. And, um, so trying to figure out what the best way to do things with... If I'm a SEAL, and you're a MARSOC Marine, who's-

Chris Williamson 46:40 Who's right.

Shawn Ryan 46:40 Who's style are we going with?

Chris Williamson 46:42 What's the biggest difference that you noticed? Who was trained most differently, or who came in with the different... The most, uh, diverging opinions when it comes to ways to operate?

Shawn Ryan 46:54 I don't think there was a specific outfit that was like that. It was more the individuals, you know? That... And there were guys that couldn't... There was guys that couldn't let it go, you know? Like, like SEALs. It's like you gotta be able to let some of the things that you learned go and learn new things. When- once you're in, you know, it is... It's a fucking team again, and you have to blend in, and you have to function. And it's... A lot of times it's the real young guys, because their egos are going crazy, and then you got the real older guy, the older guys. You know, some of these guys coming in, they're 50... I've even worked with a 65-year-old, who was the baddest 65-year-old man I've ever met. But he's stuck in his ways. You know, he's done the same thing over and over and over again, and, and has not changed. And so, to change somebody like that, it's hard. And then you got the younger guys, like me, you know, who did six years and they think, "Hey, I'm, I'm the fucking best at what I do. I just... I'm a fucking SEAL." And nobody gives a shit if you're a (laughs) SEAL. They wanna know that you can do the job and that you can work as a team. And, uh... But the majority of guys, you know, uh, they like to share, you know, their experiences, and, and, and they like to hear your experiences, because they're learning. They're, they're becoming more well-rounded. And, um, so once you're in-... it- it- a lot of that kinda shit goes away.

Chris Williamson 48:33 Yeah, because you're not a team at the start, right?

Shawn Ryan 48:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:35 It's- there's still a degree of competition between you. There's no bonding, there's no reason to do that. And I suppose as well, if there was two different groups that felt like they both had skill sets, like, uh, d- I would imagine that if it comes to demolition or water stuff, most people would think, or I- m- might be worth listening to the SEAL. Uh, but then if there's someone that's doing shooting, then perhaps there's multiple different groups that have different styles, whatever it might be. Okay, so you- you get through and then

Chris Williamson 49:03 what's the biggest change in terms of the- the culture, CIA, SEALs to CIA?

Shawn Ryan 49:09 Totally different. Completely. Culture, totally different. The hazing, that kinda stuff, there's a to- a 100% no-go. There's no hazing, there's no tuning people up for fucking up. There's- you're working with women, you're working with nerds (laughs) . You know, you're- you're working with a whole slew of different people. In the SEAL teams, you're with 16 guys and everybody's a meat-eater. Everybody wants to go to war. Everybody's hardened. Everybody's in shape. You move over to the CIA and- and- and the outfit that I was in under the agency, all those aspects are still there, you know, with my immediate team. But then you're dealing with- you're dealing with spies. You're dealing with-

Chris Williamson 49:52 Intelligence people.

Shawn Ryan 49:53 ... foreign intelligence people.

Chris Williamson 49:54 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 49:54 You're de- you gotta wear a suit sometimes. You gotta wear what you're wearing in the SEAL team sometimes. One- one day you might be meeting the president of Afghanistan, or, you know, high-end diplomat, uh, from another country, and the next day you're humping the mountains, you know, in Afghanistan with an M4. I mean, you just ... the- the- the job is so broad-

Chris Williamson 50:19 Diapos, yeah.

Shawn Ryan 50:19 ... when you get over there-

Chris Williamson 50:20 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 50:21 ... and, uh, with the agency.

Chris Williamson 50:24 How much does that feel like ... Did it ever feel like it was a nerfed version of the world to you, like it was the- all of the sharp edges had been removed and you were having to be domesticated now? You gotta wear the suit, you gotta say please and thank you, you gotta smile. Or did you enjoy the transition into a more professional environment?

Shawn Ryan 50:46 I liked both. You know, there were times when I missed-

Chris Williamson 50:49 Being a hammer.

Shawn Ryan 50:49 Wh- when you're with 16 guys for two years straight, or six years, or, you know, however l- you're with your team, there's a lot of trust there, and you don't have to watch what you're saying, you don't have to watch your mouth, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff, you know. And w- when you move over to the agency, you- you have to watch your mouth. You can't be-

Chris Williamson 51:11 'Cause someone'll write you up if they're saying the wrong thing.

Shawn Ryan 51:12 ... talking about the girl you wanna take home at the bar at the end of the night there. You can't ... You know, y- you just gotta be a lot more tight-lipped. And, um, that took some time for me to get used to (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 51:25 A little bit of adaptation.

Shawn Ryan 51:26 Yeah. But, um, but I also liked it because it was a more sophisticated outfit, and- and the job was constantly changing. For example, when I was in Iraq, it was sniper op after sniper op after sniper op after sniper op. When I went to the CIA, it was all these different things, uh, and you know what I mean? It was- it was spying. It was meeting people. It was getting dirty. It was going out in- in gun trucks and humping mountains, and it was everything from the- from the teams, not all of it but a lot of it, with all this other stuff, and you just never know what the next day is gonna bring. It was really challenging and, uh, a lot of job satisfaction. I learned a ton -

Chris Williamson 52:17 I was gonna say, is that the most fun that you had during your career?

Shawn Ryan 52:20 Yeah. I think so. I liked both of them, but the agency was just little bit different. It was- it was ... I mean, it's the agency, you know. You're- you're- you're flying under the radar. You're- you might be one of three people in a country. I mean, it's just really- you're out there doing it on your own. And- and- and with the SEAL teams, you know, you've got air assets, you have drones, you have AC-130 gunships, you have Apache helicopters, you have, um, military units that are ready to come get you out if you get into trouble. With the agency, sometimes you have that, a lot of times you don't. A lot of times it's you and the few other guys that you're with and- or women.

Chris Williamson 53:09 How does that feel to be one of only three people, perhaps, in a country doing some clandestine operation, knowing that you're a- a contractor that the agency could wash their hands of?

Shawn Ryan 53:22 You're s- For me, I never really realized the magnitude of it until it was over. You know, it's-

Chris Williamson 53:27 Probably for the best.

Shawn Ryan 53:28 So, yeah. You're- you're just so busy and embedded in what you're doing and how important it is and running all these different aspects of what's going on there. You're only one of, you know, a few people, um, and it's not always like that. But you don't have time to think about that kinda stuff. It's- it's just you're in the- you are in the moment all the time, you know, boom, boom, boom, getting things together, getting the next mission ready. And, uh, it's- it's really cool.

Chris Williamson 54:03 (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 54:03 I- I love it. I- I- I did love that aspect of it.

Chris Williamson 54:07 Is that by design? Is the agency continuing to, um, move you quickly with momentum so that you don't get the opportunity perhaps to- to sit back and think, "Fuck, this is- th- this may be something that I should be scared about. This is maybe something that I should be concerned about"?

Shawn Ryan 54:22 Um, not necessarily because you get a choice, you know. Sometimes you get a choice. Sometimes-

Chris Williamson 54:27 What do you mean?

Shawn Ryan 54:28 Well, for example-I won't get a choice on what country I'm going to. They'll brief me, "Hey, you're going here," and you go to that country, and then when you meet with the leadership of that country, then they may disperse you somewhere else. You know what I mean? So, there are guys in this outfit that, they like to be at headquarters, where everybody's at. They have bars, they have women, men, parties, great food, awesome gym, you know, all the amenities. You sleep in an air conditioned room, you have your own room, queen size, king size bed-

Chris Williamson 55:05 That's what they like to do.

Shawn Ryan 55:06 ... yeah. I would always volunteer to go to the harder spots where it was, "Hey," you know, "you can stay here, but we have this other place," you know? "And you're gonna be living on the side of a mountain" or, you know, or something like that. "And there's only gonna be five of you and you're gonna be really busy, and it's a really dangerous area." And when I hear that my hand's like-

Chris Williamson 55:31 (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 55:32 ... um, I'll do that one. Because I liked it. I liked the job. What I didn't like is being around-

Chris Williamson 55:38 Bureaucracy.

Shawn Ryan 55:39 ... headquarters, because it's- it's political. You have to worry about your safe. You have to worry about how you dress. You have to worry about who you're talking to. You have to... You know, it's- it's more about the political bullshit, not offending people, than it is about getting the job done. And all I gave a shit about was working. I don't care about the parties, I don't care about the women, I don't care about the gym amenities. I just wanted to work. And, uh, I, you can make a gym anywhere.

Chris Williamson 56:05 It's nice to think that there is a- a role there for different types of people. It seems to me like the SEALs, uh, in reflection it seems like the SEALs actually select for a very narrow band of, uh, capacities, temperament. Whereas the CIA here, it seems like you- you can have some sledgehammers and then you can have some scalpels, and then you can have some button-pushers.

Shawn Ryan 56:34 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 56:35 And they all work together.

Shawn Ryan 56:37 Exactly. It's... You see a lot more of the impact that you're making too, because, you know, in the SEAL teams you might get a directive from the agency or from higher up that's, "Go do this," but you have no re- re- you don't know what the guy you're going after was involved in. Or with the agency you get a bigger picture of what's going on in- in- in the entire space.

Chris Williamson 57:05 So you understand the context of why you're doing what you're doing. I mean, how... It- it seems like you were pretty patriotic before going to the CIA, but obviously you're being given this much broader view now of how what you're doing contributes to wider goals for America or freedom or whatever it is that you're working toward. Was that... How did that feel? Did that- did that push that patriotism, that sense of purpose, that sense of sort of, um, belonging and meaning that you had in work?

Shawn Ryan 57:39 Absolutely. Y- you're- you're previous to so much more information that when you see it, all the pieces come together. You're like, "Oh, this is why we're doing this. This is what this guy does. This is what he's gonna lead us to." You know, all these- all these things. And- and with the teams it's, "This is what we're doing. Doesn't matter why, go do it."

Chris Williamson 58:03 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 58:04 You know? And, um, and so to have like that broader spectrum but just bigger picture, it helps in- in- with what you're doing.

Chris Williamson 58:15 What do you think the future of warfare looks like?

Shawn Ryan 58:23 I don't think we're gonna see a lot of ground wars anymore.

Chris Williamson 58:28 What's that mean?

Shawn Ryan 58:28 I think it's gonna be a lot of like what China's doing now. I think it's gonna be a lot of Cold War, I guess is what you would call it, where it's not in your face kicking doors down, it's not invading necessarily. I- I mean, I know that's happening in Russia/Ukraine right now but what... If major superpowers start fighting I don't think it's gonna be a lot of ground... I don't think it's gonna be a lot of marines, I don't think it's gonna be a lot of special operations. I think it's gonna be a lot of computer stuff, hacking, propaganda, stuff like that, I think is what's-

Chris Williamson 59:13 So you go from-

Shawn Ryan 59:14 Or, you know, the-

Chris Williamson 59:16 Nukes.

Shawn Ryan 59:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:16 (laughs) Okay.

Shawn Ryan 59:17 Then there's the other option.

Chris Williamson 59:18 Yeah, there's-

Shawn Ryan 59:19 But... I mean, now it seems like all these superpowers are starting to come to a head, and I- I... That looks very, very different than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, you know, things like that.

Chris Williamson 59:35 Are you concerned at the moment about the state of global geopolitic peace and stuff?

Shawn Ryan 59:41 Ah. (laughs) Who isn't? I... Yeah, I definitely-

Chris Williamson 59:43 But you're a specialist, right? You understand this to a- a greater degree than me who's like, "The headlines look good this week," or head- "the headlines look bad this week."

Shawn Ryan 59:51 Yeah. Well, let- let's look at China. Are you familiar with some of the stuff that's going on? You know, I mean-

Chris Williamson 59:56 Yeah, give-give everybody a- a little overview of what they need to understand about what you think's important.

Shawn Ryan 1:00:01 Well, I mean, China's doing exactly what they should be doing, you know, for their goal. I mean, the fentanyl crisis that's happening th- with the cartels and their... That's all coming from China. China's teaching... They're bringing chemists in, they're teaching these cartels how to cook the world's most potent fentanyl. They al- they actually already have the next drug that's worse than fentanyl. They're teaching them how to do that. But China is leaning in-

Chris Williamson 1:00:27 Do you know what that's called?

Shawn Ryan 1:00:28 No, I don't.

Chris Williamson 1:00:29 Okay. But there's something out there which is more lethal, more addictive, more-

Shawn Ryan 1:00:32 Yes. It's already being introduced. And, um...You know, and so that's eating us. I mean, look at... You know, I just walked around Austin. There's all kinds of homeless out there, shooting, shooting drugs. You know, it's in every city. It's everywhere.

Chris Williamson 1:00:48 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 1:00:48 And that's coming from China. You know, then you look at the green, you, you know, the green initiative. We're seeing it, this is what's gonna happen, you know, is... And, and I'm not necessarily anti-green. You know, I'm all about what's best for the planet. But, you know, we keep talking about, "Oh, we're gonna be energy-independent with green energy." No, we're not. We're not gonna be energy-independent, because China is going to supply all of our energy equipment, and so they're gonna be able to do exactly what Russia's gonna do to Germany this winter. They're gonna-

Chris Williamson 1:01:21 Sweet.

Shawn Ryan 1:01:21 ... flip the switch, and they're gonna say goodbye to gasoline, and they're fucked. And that's what's gonna happen to us if we have China produce all of our solar panels, all of our lithium batteries, all of our, um, um, wind, you know, equipment. All they have to do is flip the switch, and let's be honest. I mean, how many products have we had come in from China that last? Not very many, you know. The quality control over there, they don't give a shit about that stuff. And so they're gonna control our energy, whether we like it or not, 'cause we're not making that stuff. They're buying up our farmland. They're paying off our politicians. I did an interview on that, on how many of th- And it's not one side, you know. That's, that's another thing that is, uh, a little concerning, is everybody... They're dividing us, you know?

Chris Williamson 1:02:08 Bipartisan clandestine work.

Shawn Ryan 1:02:10 They're, they're dividing us, and they're doing a damn good job. A lot of the shit that you're seeing on social media, it's, uh, bots, you know, and, and it's, it's designed to split this country apart, and they're, it's working.

Chris Williamson 1:02:21 I learned that the second-biggest Facebook page before the BLM movement started was begun in the Internet Research Agency in Russia. That is where it was founded. And they were organizing rallies around the US, with real people turning up to them, but it was being organized from the IRA.

Shawn Ryan 1:02:40 It's crazy, right, when you think about it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:42 Wild.

Shawn Ryan 1:02:42 And so that, to me, is the new warfare, and it's, uh, uh, like I said, they're doing exactly what they should be doing for their goals. We are not. We're worried about, you know, woke bullshit or whatever you want to call it.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 Well, there's a question here, uh, there's a really important question, I think, to be asked when you look at the long-term-ism future of whether or not a democracy is compatible with long-term effectiveness of a country. I don't like the idea of living under an authoritarian regime. But if you say, "Look, you can either have, uh, a f- freedom with a loss, or you can have varying degrees of authoritar- uh, authoritarianism with a win," you go, there, there l- literally might be a p- a position where you get to where, by allowing everybody to have a say and by giving people the opportunity to, uh, get on their step and start shouting about whatever their particular current grievance is, that might be the thing which means that the authoritarian regime ends up winning. And you go, okay, so if that's, if that's the situation, how do you push back against that? Because there's no one, no one's going to accept a, uh, decrease in their civil liberties simply because there's someone else that's using a different set of rules on the other side of the world. But I do think i- i- it's not outside the realm of imagination that it literally could be that a CCP-style authoritarian regime is simply more effective. You go, okay, well, you get to go down swinging, but you go down.

Shawn Ryan 1:04:25 Yeah. Um, I hope that doesn't happen.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 Me too.

Shawn Ryan 1:04:29 But sometimes I w- sometimes I wonder if they both lead to the same place. I mean, um, was it Stalin that said, "Capitalism will eventually eat itself"? I c- I can't remember if that was him.

Chris Williamson 1:04:40 Maybe.

Shawn Ryan 1:04:41 But, um, and if you, if you look at some of the stuff that's going on, you know, like Amazon or Walmart or, um, Facebook. You know, they've grown so big, and they, we are capitalists, right, here in the US? Well, they've just obliterated small business. You know, nobody's... When's the last time you went to a Best Buy, you know? Or i- i- it's destroying business, and so basically I'm wondering if that's gonna become an authoritarian, you know, government.

Chris Williamson 1:05:18 Oh, because-

Shawn Ryan 1:05:18 Or, or-

Chris Williamson 1:05:18 ... you've condensed power into the hands of-

Shawn Ryan 1:05:20 Do you see what I'm saying?

Chris Williamson 1:05:20 ... so few simply because of market dynamics. Yeah, maybe. Well, I mean, the, the, the free market was a lot more free before the internet because you weren't able to leverage as well.

Shawn Ryan 1:05:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:31 You know, it didn't matter that you had the biggest store in Bastrop, because Austin was 20 miles away and you, it would take too long to build up new customer bases, and the brand didn't mean anything to anybody or whatever, or definitely from state to state. But yeah, when you have the unlimited scalability that's afforded by the internet, it does condense power into the hands of very few. And that's a, an interesting point, that, um, if you run capitalism forward for long enough with a sufficiently scalable technology where the costs of increasing leverage are sufficiently low, you do end up with an oligopoly because all of the power ends up just continuing. You just compete away, compete away, compete away, and then the m- And don't get me wrong, I fucking love Amazon. I have Amazon Prime. I buy stuff off there all the time.

Shawn Ryan 1:06:21 Me too (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:06:21 You know?

Shawn Ryan 1:06:22 It's just too convenient, right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:23 But that's pre- that's precisely why it happens, right?

Shawn Ryan 1:06:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:25 The reason that it happens is because the economies of scale afford them the ability to be able to do this. Um, yeah, that's-

Shawn Ryan 1:06:34 It's interesting to think about, right?

Chris Williamson 1:06:36 It is, yeah. I wonder whether...I wonder whether longer term there is going to be a pushback against that. I- I just, I- I think that people have become so accustomed, and this is me speaking to myself, with convenience, that the anchoring bias, pulling somebody out of a situation in which they've got all of that convenience and saying, "Actually, maybe you should wait five days for your groceries to arrive, but you'll be supporting local business." I don't wanna wait five days for my groceries to arrive. I want them tomorrow. Like, I know I can get them tomorrow, so why would I go to a less efficient, uh, purchasing system?

Shawn Ryan 1:07:14 The only way I think people would do that is if the quality's better.

Chris Williamson 1:07:17 Yes.

Shawn Ryan 1:07:18 You know? So like a lot of people do do that with, you know, they'll go to a farmer's market and get org-

Chris Williamson 1:07:24 With meats.

Shawn Ryan 1:07:24 Real organic.

Chris Williamson 1:07:25 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 1:07:25 You know, or they'll go to, uh, a farmer like we do, and we'll get real... Not that the other beef's fake, but I know where it's coming from, and I like the cuts, and da da. You know what I'm getting at.

Chris Williamson 1:07:37 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 1:07:37 But-

Chris Williamson 1:07:40 You moved into personal security after you left the CIA. This is something that a lot of people take very seriously here in America. What do you think most people get wrong when they're thinking about their personal security setup?

Shawn Ryan 1:07:57 It'll never happen to me. That's the biggest thing that they get wrong. They don't prep their weapon the right way. They don't train with it enough because they don't take it seriously 'cause they haven't seen it happen. Um, I think that's the biggest thing. Another thing that I see are when you get into the industry a little bit deeper and you have the, the people that make that a lifestyle is they get more than they need, and, and they buy all this equipment, and they don't learn how to use it because it's complicated. You know, I- I've, when I used to teach, um, people personal protection and stuff, they would, these guys would show up, you know, with lasers, with scopes, with all these things, and they don't even know. They, they can't even sight 'em in, you know, and, um, and those are the ones that are coming out that are asking for help. A lot of people just put these together, and they just blow money, and they, they really don't know how to use 'em, and, uh, I think that's a mistake too.

Chris Williamson 1:09:01 So people are replacing-

Shawn Ryan 1:09:03 'Cause you're asking about actual, like, products, right?

Chris Williamson 1:09:06 Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 1:09:06 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:09:07 But also in terms of mindset.

Shawn Ryan 1:09:10 Mindset is a major one. That's the biggest one. That's the biggest mistake.

Chris Williamson 1:09:14 They don't believe that it's gonna happen to them.

Shawn Ryan 1:09:16 They don't believe that it's gonna happen or which the people that come usually do, but-

Chris Williamson 1:09:22 Well, they know that it's going to, right? Like, oh, you mean in terms of training. Sorry, I was thinking in terms of a- a- an assailant or, you know, some bad guy that's gonna try and do something to you. Y- There is a, there is an asymmetry in that interaction because that person's already made the decision that they're going to rob your house or try and attack you in the street. They know that it's gonna happen.

Shawn Ryan 1:09:46 There's so many mindset things that, uh, people paint these, they paint these scenarios in their head, and that's how it's gonna go down. And it's not gonna go down like that, you know, and you see that not just in personal protection, but all the way to... A l- a lot of people think things are gonna happen here, you know, and they think that it's gonna be (claps hands) one day, it's gonna be, "All right, we gotta, uh, you know, we gotta fight for the country." That's not how these things happen. It's a slow rollout, and it gets very confusing, and-

Chris Williamson 1:10:16 You mean like a civilian militia that's gonna push back against whatever regime it needs to be pushed back against?

Shawn Ryan 1:10:20 Yeah, whatever, or if we get invaded by China or whatever happens.

Chris Williamson 1:10:23 Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Shawn Ryan 1:10:23 You know, and, um, call it the zombie apocalypse.

Chris Williamson 1:10:27 Cool.

Shawn Ryan 1:10:27 But you get these guys, and they think that one day that the zombie apocalypse is gonna happen, and we're gonna get invaded, and, and it's gonna be you need to eliminate everything that wears this or looks like that or... It's not how it goes down. How it goes down is very slow and it's confusing, and you really have to pay attention to target identification because the whole world just doesn't flip, you know, at once. Another thing that I see a lot or, you know, people don't... They wanna get real big into shooting, and they wanna prep for the end of the world or whatever, and they, they put so much emphasis on that, but they're physical f- They're 150 pounds overweight. More people die of a heart attack every year than anything else, and they don't have an AED and they're 150 pounds overweight. You know, an A-D, uh, defibrillator. And it's like, that's great that you're, you know, getting ready for all these things that might happen maybe one day, but you're 150 pounds overweight and you don't even know how to use a defibrillator, you know? And they don't like it when you tell them that, but that's the real threat. That's the most imminent threat, you know, to that person. They don't like it when you tell them that. Or you get somebody that's... A lot of overweight stuff here, but you get, "I'm just gonna jump on my rooftop" and, uh, "with all my guns." And it's like, "How the hell are you even gonna get up there?"

Chris Williamson 1:11:54 (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 1:11:54 You know? (laughs) But, um, I, I mean, I'd like to see you try, but a lot of that, a lot of that kinda stuff or the, and, and painting the scenarios where if I, if somebody attacks me in a parking lot, this is how it's gonna go down. That's not how it's gonna go down. It's, it's... Before you engage somebody, I mean, there's so many processes that have to go through your head. Who's standing behind that person? Are you gonna shoot them? Can you actually shoot this person? You know, are they doing to you what you think they're doing to you? Like, it takes time to process that kinda stuff.

Chris Williamson 1:12:32 That's why you said target, what was it?

Shawn Ryan 1:12:34 Identification.

Chris Williamson 1:12:35 Target identification is so important.

Shawn Ryan 1:12:37 You have to process all these things that are happening and within seconds, and-... most people, it'll be done (snaps fingers) and gone before they even realize what the hell happened. So does that make sense?

Chris Williamson 1:12:52 Absolutely. Yeah. What about, um, when it comes to people's homes, what are the things that you wish more people knew about personal protection in the home, around the home?

Shawn Ryan 1:13:06 Just, I mean, basic stuff, you know. Um, a dog, like f- to protect your house, a dog is the number one deterrent for anything, for any, any... The FBI statistics appointed that for years and years and years.

Chris Williamson 1:13:21 Is that right?

Shawn Ryan 1:13:21 Yep. A dog is the number one deterrent. But, um, I think the biggest thing with, with home security nowadays is the internet. You know, people are posting... You can map your whole house out. You know, if you follow certain people on Instagram, especially some of these influencers, if you pay attention, you can map their whole damn house out.

Chris Williamson 1:13:44 Because they're taking videos and behind them is-

Shawn Ryan 1:13:45 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:13:45 ... the window that's latched in the kitchen to vent the fumes out or whatever. Yeah. Okay.

Shawn Ryan 1:13:50 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:13:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Shawn Ryan 1:13:52 Or they post where they live, and then you can look it up on realtor.com, and there's the whole layout.

Chris Williamson 1:13:57 There was a video, uh, that I saw recently about a gang in the UK who was using social media to steal from influencers' houses. And there was this girl that was on a reality show a few years ago called Molly-Mae, and, uh, she had hundreds of thousands of dollars of jewelry stolen from her house because she'd put it on Instagram, obviously as you do, because that's her job. And, uh, yeah, a whole host of stuff was taken out of her house. They knew when she was out of the house because of when her Instagram stories were up.

Shawn Ryan 1:14:27 Yep. "Look at me, I'm in Cancun, Mexico." Perfect.

Chris Williamson 1:14:30 Oh, that means no one's in your house.

Shawn Ryan 1:14:31 How long you down there?

Chris Williamson 1:14:33 (laughs)

Shawn Ryan 1:14:33 (laughs) You know, so... You know, and they got... You're right, you're right, they got 200,000, a million, two million people following them and they're posting, "Hey, I'm in Cancun."

Chris Williamson 1:14:42 There's a few thieves in there that would love to have that nice Rolex.

Shawn Ryan 1:14:45 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:14:47 Yeah, okay. So-

Shawn Ryan 1:14:48 I think those are the biggest mistakes that people make, you know, they take home security so, um, uh, seriously and then it's these stupid little mistakes. "Hey, I'm out of town and nobody's watching the house." Or, or, you know, like, right now I'm in Austin, my wife and kid are at home. I'm not telling anybody-

Chris Williamson 1:15:07 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 1:15:07 ... on social media that I'm in Austin-

Chris Williamson 1:15:09 Yep.

Shawn Ryan 1:15:09 ... until I get home, and then I'll, and then I'll tell them.

Chris Williamson 1:15:12 Yep. Yeah, very smart. So, uh, Tim Ferriss wrote this article called 13 Reasons Not to Get Famous. It's a very interesting problem to have that almost no one is going to encounter. What, what happens when you overshoot fame and you get too much exposure? But Tim's had a billion podcast plays, more probably, one of the OGs of this world. And, uh, he was talking about how after a little while, he had to never post holiday photos until after he got back because people would ring the hotel that he was staying in or all of the hotels in the area that he was staying in and ask if Tim Ferriss was there, then they would turn up. There was a guy that camped out front of his house for, uh, a week because he was adamant that Tim was sending him secret messages in his podcast saying that he wanted to be with him.

Shawn Ryan 1:15:57 Oh, man.

Chris Williamson 1:15:57 So this guy found out where Tim lived. Um, all sorts of stuff that he has to do now to kind of future-proof himself. And again, this is a problem that very few people would have. But it's, it's also kind of not. What you're seeing is a person who has an unbelievable net that they are attracting potential, uh, bad actors in from. Well, everybody has that, it's just to varying degrees. And what you're basically doing if you have a smaller audience of people that follow you but you continue to do the same things is you're just rolling the dice. You're saying, "Look, well, I- I'm not Tim Ferriss, therefore I have nothing to worry about." You know, if you've got a private social media with 500 people on there and almost all of them are your friends, I think you can probably feel a little bit more secure that that's not the case. But if it's a public social media, yeah, I mean, that makes complete sense. And for Tim, you know, he was... how seriously he takes personal security, Rogan as well, man. Like, he... That guy does not fuck about with his security. And what you're seeing there are examples of people that are kind of existing at the close to the upper echelon of normal people, right? Before you get to presidents and, and sports stars and CEOs of companies and stuff like that.

Shawn Ryan 1:17:07 It could be-

Chris Williamson 1:17:08 You need to take it seriously.

Shawn Ryan 1:17:08 ... it could be anybody though. You know, I mean, we're, we're talking about famous people and, and, uh, you know, I'm sure you deal with some of that as well. But it doesn't necessarily have to be famous people. It could be... Let's say you live in a town of 6,000 people and you're the only heart surgeon in town. You're wealthier than 95%, you know, of that town and your kid goes to school and you do only have 50 people following you. Everybody knows you're the wealthiest person in town, so the minute you go to Florida to go to the beach, guess what? Everybody in town knows that you're gone and they're going to go right over there if they want, you know. And so it could happen on any scale.

Chris Williamson 1:17:56 How do you advise people to deal with threatening others in public? You're on a bus or you're on a Tube, I'm seeing increasing videos of these appear on the internet of someone that's just being belligerent somewhere in public. And if you're in an enclosed space where you can't get away right now, or maybe you can, maybe it's at a sports game or whatever. Like, have you got advice for people on how to deal with that?

Shawn Ryan 1:18:19 I mean, yeah. I- th- the thing that I tell them to do is just avoid it at all costs. I think a lot of these confrontations happen and, and it's unnecessary, it's two egos going at it. And, uh, like, for example, it just happened to me yesterday. You know, we're sitting... I was sitting in the park, I stayed at the JW Marriott and there's a park across the street. And homeless guy asked me for something and I was like, "Sorry man, I don't have anything." And he got irate.... with me, charged me, was telling me I needed to stand up and da da da da da, and, and I was just like, "Hey, man, just you gotta be careful, you know?" Um, you really need to be careful with people that don't have anything to lose when you have something to lose. And so, the first thing I would say is just get the hell out of there. I- i- it... If, if there's any possibility of you being able to exit that situation-

Chris Williamson 1:19:17 So get off at the next tube stop-

Shawn Ryan 1:19:19 ... then get off the exit.

Chris Williamson 1:19:20 ... get off at the next bus stop.

Shawn Ryan 1:19:20 Just let it go, you know? I think a lot of people can't just let it go. Um, but if you're in imminent danger, then, I mean, you have no, really no choice but to confront it, in my mind. And so I would advise, especially today, you know, crime's on the rise. There's rioting, not right now, but it happens a lot more than it used to. And, I mean, carry a gun. Gun's gonna give you that confidence, especially if you know how to use it, you know? And, and all kinds of different scenarios, I mean, my wife was a realtor in Boca Raton, Florida, showing really high-end houses, and it took one time where she got in an uncomfortable scenario with somebody that wanted to come look at the house, she didn't have a gun. That never happened again, you know? And so I would, I, I, I'm a huge gun advocate. I really think that if, if you have the means to get one, you have the time to learn how to use it-

Chris Williamson 1:20:25 (clears throat)

Shawn Ryan 1:20:25 ... then you should be carrying one. It's just different times today.

Chris Williamson 1:20:30 Do you hope for a time when that's not the case?

Shawn Ryan 1:20:33 Absolutely. I hope for a time-

Chris Williamson 1:20:34 So I-

Shawn Ryan 1:20:34 ... when that's not the case.

Chris Williamson 1:20:35 ... what I see among some people, especially the sort of uber preppers or the doomer optimists, as they're, some of them are now called, there is a little bit of a degree of glee at the potential conflict that's coming.

Shawn Ryan 1:20:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:20:55 It's almost like they want it to happen.

Shawn Ryan 1:20:57 Well, those are the people I was talking about earlier that are preparing for the zombie apocalypse that are gonna jump on their rooftop, and those people are living in a fantasy land. They've not been to war. They never will be. I think that they feel a void in their life because they never went to war, and so they're, they're like hoping for some kinda crazy opportunity to, for something to happen.

Chris Williamson 1:21:20 Show all of the hours that they've spent at the range or-

Shawn Ryan 1:21:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:21:23 ... whatever it is. Yeah. There is a... That's an element, uh, a very unique one that I've noticed since I've been in America, that there are, there is a contingent of people that I think, uh, relish the opportunity of a ballistic conflict happening-

Shawn Ryan 1:21:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:21:41 ... regularly. And the opportunity for them to put... For them to justify their preparation, their money, their time, their, uh, sense of belonging or, um, righteousness about what they've been preaching, uh, and, and telling their friends about for so long. And that, "Yeah, like, I want to show that all of the work that I've put in was worthwhile."

Shawn Ryan 1:22:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:22:11 And you say, what, what you're saying is that you want to shoot somebody, somebody that's a bad guy maybe, or somebody that deserved it. But if you want to, that, your threshold for when you are actually going to pull your weapon out to use it is going to be lower than other people's. And that means that you're potentially going to escalate the situation sooner than it needed to be. And that's what I get