EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,109 words- 0:00 – 0:41
Intro
- SRShawn Ryan
It's great that you're getting ready for all these things that might happen, maybe, one day, but you're 150 pounds overweight and you don't even know how to use a defibrillator. They don't like it when you tell them that, but that's the real threat. "I'm just gonna jump on my rooftop with all my guns." And it's like, "How the hell are you even gonna get up there?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SRShawn Ryan
You know? (laughs) I, I mean, I'd like to see you try.
- CWChris Williamson
Sean Ryan, welcome to the show.
- SRShawn Ryan
Thanks for having me. You got a helluva show here.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you, man-
- SRShawn Ryan
It's awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
... I appreciate that. Thank you. Navy SEAL, CIA contractor, personal security expert, guy that helped train Keanu Reeves to be John Wick. That... The headlines, those are the big ones?
- SRShawn Ryan
That's, that's the big ones.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yep.
- 0:41 – 3:57
Why Keanu Reeves was a Great Student
- SRShawn Ryan
- CWChris Williamson
Good. What's Keanu Reeves like in real life?
- SRShawn Ryan
He is very soft-spoken. Uh, he's a very good listener, very good student. We didn't really trade too many stories or anything. He just came out to train and, and I kept it extremely professional. And, um... But he was r- He's a very intelligent guy. He picks things up really quick.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SRShawn Ryan
He's serious about what he's doing. And, uh, he's... Honestly, he's one of the best students or people that I've ever trained. He just really picks up on things.
- CWChris Williamson
What makes for a good student of somebody that wants to learn about protection, weapons, aggression, precision?
- SRShawn Ryan
It doesn't take much. It takes a good listener. You c- In that industry, you get a lot of people that come out who have been... They like to say they've been shooting since they were five, or they've been hunting since they were, you know, were walking. And they always have these stories, and it's, "This is how I do it. This is how I've always done it." But when you get a guy like Keanu, or a lot of women are like this too, they just... They're like a sponge. They just retain. They listen, they retain the information, and all they're worried about is what you're saying-
- CWChris Williamson
Doing it right.
- SRShawn Ryan
... and what you're doing. And that's what makes a good student. It's not with shooting. It's not... You know, you don't need to be an athlete. You don't need to be super intelligent or anything like that. You just need to be able to listen, and, and be able to retain information and set your ego aside.
- CWChris Williamson
I did a firearms and fitness course at Atomic Legion out here in Austin. So they do, uh, weapons training. They've got a grandmaster shooter on the books, a guy called Alex Acosta. He's a fucking animal. And, uh, we did this firearms and fitness thing, so picking up a sandbag, do two laps, dump the sandbag, take three shots. If you hit the three shots, you get more shots and scores and blo- within this time window. And you can extend the time window if you're more accurate and all this sort of stuff. And, uh, I had my arse handed to me by, like, mothers of three.
- SRShawn Ryan
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
55-year-old mothers of three. Because they're able to... I was fitter than them, but their ability to be precise and to be able to control themselves under pressure, uh, and obviously the shooting experience, which, being a Brit, I haven't got tons of. But yeah, it was, it was fascinating to see. And then those videos of Keanu, it's from, what was it, five years ago, six years ago, when those ones went, like, hyper, hyper viral from Taran?
- SRShawn Ryan
It's been a, it's been a while.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. But the one where he was switching between all of those different weapons. He's got... That is...
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah, that was the first. I think that was the first John Wick.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, okay. So he's been that skilled and then probably got even more skilled as he keeps going through.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah, I can't take credit for teaching him how to shoot. I taught him how to clear a room.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- SRShawn Ryan
How to-
- CWChris Williamson
And what, what was the... What were the main things that you were trying to get him to be accurate with that?
- SRShawn Ryan
I just wanted to help him look realistic when he was entering a room or kicking doors in, 'cause, you know, 'cause it's a fast-paced, very action, you know, movie. And so I wanted to help bring a realistic standpoint. That's what I got asked to do out there. Taran asked me to just teach him how to clear a room.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SRShawn Ryan
So I said, "All right, let's do it."
- CWChris Williamson
Cool, man.
- SRShawn Ryan
And we did.
- CWChris Williamson
So I had this... Uh, I saw this news
- 3:57 – 13:48
Agenda-Driven Hollywood
- CWChris Williamson
article I wanted to have a chat with you about. So this is from Bloomberg. Critics and fans have never disagreed more about movies. When Sony released its film adaptation of the video game Uncharted in February, critics were quick, quick to tear it apart. The Wall Street Journal called it "bloodless, heartless, joyless, sexless, and, with one exception, charmless." New York Magazine de- (laughs)
- SRShawn Ryan
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... deemed it "curiously empty." Moviefreak.com dismissed it as a "bona fide disaster." And yet audiences ate it up. The movie, which stars Tom Holland and Mark Wahlberg, opened to a $44.2 million at the box office and went on to gross 401 million worldwide. It's one of the 10 highest-grossing movies of the year. Uncharted also initiated one of the biggest disputes between critics and fans in modern movie history. Audiences have given higher scores than critics to all 10 of the year's biggest movies. The average audience score for Jurassic World Dominion on Rotten Tomatoes and IMDb is 67. The critic score is 34, so a difference of 33 points. The Gray Man is the same. Uncharted is the same, disagreeing by more than 30 points. It may seem as though critics, uh, typically pan the year's biggest hits, but that's not the case. Sometimes audiences tend to give blockbusters higher scores. It can also be the other way around. The thing that I think is interesting about this is how detached the people in positions of power, whether that be in media, whether that be in legislature, the, um, gap between what the normal person likes and enjoys and wants and what the critics think that they should want, perhaps, or what they believe would be good for the plebeians to actually want-
- SRShawn Ryan
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... seems to be diverging more and more. What do you think?
- SRShawn Ryan
I 100% agree with you on that. I, I feel like there's an agenda, you know, behind everything that comes out now. And I don't know exactly where that comes from, but it is not from the audience. And I think it's, it's disconnected Hollywood so much that... I mean, it, it hurt their bank accounts real bad. And, and you're starting to see more A-list celebrities moving...... to the podcast world because nobody's watching their movies anymore. They're starting to see them move into Amazon and Netflix series and not Hollywood. They're starting to see them, uh, produce their own stuff, because nobody's watching. Nobody's watching that stuff anymore, because it was so agenda-driven.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, we saw this with, I think it was the Oscars last year, that most of ... Was it Nomadland, I think, that cleaned up? It might have been the O- Oscars or the Golden Globes, one of the awards ceremonies. And all of the films that were doing well in the box office, you can al- it's almost an inversion. If it does well at the box office, it's probably not going to do well at the awards. And if it does well at the awards, it's probably not gonna do well in the box office. I think the last one, someone brought it up, that did, managed to do both was Dark Knight: Batman. Um, but yeah, when you think about l- all the Marvel movies, stuff like that, the only one that got rated well was Black Panther. Th- th- great movie, but there's an agenda there.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? You know, it's a signal to people.
- SRShawn Ryan
I, I, part of me... Look, I g- I do understand the whole diversity thing. But when, when you make it the point of the movie to shove diversity down everybody's throat, it doesn't work. And then, you look at a movie like Top Gun that came out. Everything was in there, right? It was, there was all the diversity, but that wasn't the point of the movie. The point of the movie was fighter pilots, the USA. You know, it was very... I think it was a very patriotic movie, and look what happened. It was... It just smashed everything in its way. And everything that needed to be in there to make everybody happy was in there, you know? And, and, I think that's... That should be the example.
- CWChris Williamson
My friend, Douglas, has a, an idea about how you can tell when a minority is fully absorbed into a culture, and he says, "It's when you have to put up with the same amount of shit that everybody else does."
- SRShawn Ryan
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And-
- SRShawn Ryan
That's a great quote.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's a lovely way to think about it, right? The fact that what you actually want is for people to not care anymore, to not care the fact that you're Black or gay or trans or w- y- d- disabled, whatever, right? That is the position you want to get yourself into. And you know that when there is a degree of just day-to-day bullshit that you have to put up with that everybody else does too. And I think that you're right. When, um, diversity is made a point, it almost seems patronizing to the people that it's trying to, uh, put at the forefront. It's like, "Well, you, y- your position in society isn't sufficiently deserving, or you wouldn't be given this if we didn't make it a big deal." It's like, no, no, no, no. Like, you just... If the lead actor is a Black man, let's not... How about we don't reference the fact that he's Black?
- SRShawn Ryan
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
How about he's just the lead guy? And you see this with the James Bond discussion, right, all the time. Like, what would it be like to have the first female James Bond or the first Black James Bond or the first gay James Bond or whatever?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. Why don't you just make a new series?
- CWChris Williamson
A, a new James Bond. Whoever's the good James Bond. So yeah, it's, um, it's an interesting one, man. I think that the more the elites become out of touch with what normal people want, the more that you're going to see... the less faith normal people are gonna have in what they do.
- SRShawn Ryan
I th- I think that's why, I think that's why YouTube and, and, and podcasting is getting so big, because it's the, it's one of the only spaces left that's, I guess, semi-unfiltered, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, un-molested.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. So it's, I'm, it's sad to see it go that way, but it's been going that way for a, uh, long time. And, um, but hey, it's good for us, right?
- CWChris Williamson
One of my friends sent me that news article. He said, "The spiraling lunacy of elites shows up in the most benign places." You know, right? Uh, Rotten Tomatoes is pretty fucking benign as far as it goes. But yeah, man, it'll be interesting to see what happens. And y- y-... One of the problems you have is with a medium like podcasting, uh, and even Instagram Stories to a degree as well, what you got with Instagram Stories was a very unfiltered look at people that were super, super high status. So you got to see what Kanye West's dog was called, right? Or like, Kim Kardashian's Starbucks order or whatever. Like, it doesn't matter about what it is. The point being that it gave you a degree of transparency into the lives of people that previously would have been so untouchable. But that kind of, that transparency means that people need to be more real, because our ability to tune in to whether or not someone is bullshitting us has been now filtered and filtered and filtered a lot more tightly.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So you see somebody come out and try and give some press conference, or you even watch, you know, a late night show now where you've got the two-minute segment to get out what it is that you need to get out, and it just feels so strained. It almost feels scripted, and it might be. You know, all the... You guys have the late night shows. We don't quite have the same thing over here, where they'll come on and say, "Oh, so are you gonna do a squirrel impression? Let me see your squirrel impression." Like, yo, you, you prepped fucking squirrel impressions-
- SRShawn Ryan
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... backstage before you do this. And it just seems so clunky, and, and it doesn't surprise me that people don't have faith.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. I 100% agree with you on that. I also... I don't know how to say this lightly, but I feel like the population is just getting dumber. And I think if you look at some of the stuff, 'cause I, I mean, we're both, you know, in the same space, um, basically. And so, I'm always studying social media, what's taking off, what's not taking off, and, and looking at, you know, everybody else, what's taking off for them. And when I see w- If you go to YouTube Trending, you know, or you look at what the Explore tab is gonna show you on Instagram or TikTok, it's mindless bullshit. It, it doesn't, there's, it doesn't make any sense. And when it comes to podcasts like yours and like mine, I mean, th- there's some deep discussions that happen, and you have to pay attention. And I don't think...I think there's a percentage of the population that cannot comprehend the conversation that we're having.
- CWChris Williamson
We're starting to have a diverging group there as well. That being said, people want whatever is effective, and I think that the people that are able to pay attention, that are able to have interesting conversations and l- learn about a point of view that they maybe don't agree with without losing their shit at it, those people will end up being in a much better place in life.
- SRShawn Ryan
Mm-hmm.
- 13:48 – 20:29
The Weight of Important Work
- CWChris Williamson
I was thinking about all of the stuff that you've done throughout your career, SEALs, CIA, personal security. A lot of those things... There is, there seems to be two types of narratives to do with people that go to war. One is that it's one of the most important things that we do, sending these people on the front lines, but then there is also situations like withdrawal from Afghanistan, like, lack of success in other areas, especially in the Middle East for- for America, and there was a question that I thought of which is, do you think it's more scary that everything that you do matters or that nothing that you do matters?
- SRShawn Ryan
That's a good question. I would rather everything matters. Um, I- I don't know... I don't know what it would be like if nothing mattered. Um, I would think that would be a very unfulfilling way to live. Would you agree?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. So, e- even right now I think everything that I do matters. So, I- I can't... I don't... For me, I- I wouldn't be happy if I was doing stuff that I didn't think mattered. Uh, it would be a very unfulfilling life.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a dangerous position to get yourself into. That's where nihilism starts to creep in.
- SRShawn Ryan
I mean, what do you... What do you feel good about if nothing you're doing matters? You just... I mean, I get- we see it all the time, you know, people just skating by, but I don't think they really have anything good to f- you know, to feel about, or they're not really proud of anything, and- and, uh, I would... That would bother me a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a way to escape though, because there's a pressure associated with having everything that you do matter, right? And an easy way to escape from that is to say, "Well, look, nothing does. I don't need to take responsibility for everything." And there's a bunch of ways that people can escape from this, you know, whether it's not believing that free will exists, whether it's believing that humanity is a curse on the Earth and is doomed and- that we need to limit our ecological impact as much as possible. Whichever route you go down, from the philosophical to the ecological to the scientific to the transhumanist, all of these are different ways, I think, to make people feel better about the fact that they're scared that nothing that they do matters.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. I... You know, I've heard you talk a lot about psychedelics on here, and I've done psychedelics, uh, for treatment, not for fun, and I will say that before I did that treatment, everything was a huge deal. Even the things that I didn't think were a huge deal, or- or, uh, I'm sorry, even things that I thought that were a huge deal, after I did the psychedelic treatment, I realized, you know, not all this shit is an- is as important as I-
- CWChris Williamson
So it gave you some perspective?
- SRShawn Ryan
It gave me a lot of perspective that I needed.
- CWChris Williamson
Would you mind explaining what you did in terms of your course of treatment?
- SRShawn Ryan
Uh, I did... I did ibogaine. Have you heard of that?
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- SRShawn Ryan
I did ibogaine and then I did 5-MeO, and I did that about six months ago. When I did it, I haven't- I haven't drank since. I saw you did 1,000 days clean.
- CWChris Williamson
I did, yes.
- SRShawn Ryan
And, um, I haven't had a drop of alcohol, haven't had a drop of coffee. My anxiety is gone. I used to struggle with that a lot. My anger issues are gone, and I (laughs) I really struggled with that a lot, uh, coming out of the military and the agency and just getting back into civilian life. And so... And it helped me become more in the moment, which was my primary reason to go do that, was, uh, uh, I now have a one-year-old and, uh, I just wanted to be i- in the moment with him.
- CWChris Williamson
Would you class whatever it was that you were feeling like as PTSD, or is this a... How would you say? A conditioned response to life from being a high-level operator for a long time?
- SRShawn Ryan
Both.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
I think both. Head injuries, PTSD.
- CWChris Williamson
What head injuries? Where do head injuries come from in your line of work?
- SRShawn Ryan
Uh, (sighs) blown up, falling out of helicopters, stuff like that.
- CWChris Williamson
You've fallen out of helicopters?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How high?
- SRShawn Ryan
... oh, maybe 10 feet.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- SRShawn Ryan
You know, not too crazy. Maybe-
- CWChris Williamson
But enough-
- SRShawn Ryan
... a little higher, but-
- 20:29 – 31:38
Being Refined by the Military
- SRShawn Ryan
- CWChris Williamson
You joined when you were 18, right?
- SRShawn Ryan
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What, what was the predisposition that you had there, uh, and what w- what was learned behavior that you got throughout your entire career? I'm trying to work out which bits of you remained and which bits of you were deprogrammed through two decades of being an operator.
- SRShawn Ryan
That's good. I don't, um-
- CWChris Williamson
What about the aggression? Like, was there aggression in there? Was there this shortness? Was there this over-reliance or over-, um, importance on everything being a big deal? Was that always there?
- SRShawn Ryan
No. That was learned. That came, um... It, there's a lot of pressure being on a team, and the pressure is don't let your team down. And so everything needs to be done. If you're not doing anything, you should be doing something. Make yourself busy. Go, you know, get X, Y, and Z done. And so, and when you do let the team down, you know it, and it, it's, it's a horrible feeling, and, and they let you know that too, that you've let them down.
- CWChris Williamson
What were some examples of, of a time when you did something that you felt was letting the team down?
- SRShawn Ryan
Um... On my first deployment, I was a booze hound. We weren't, we did not go to war, and I was pretty upset about that. And so I took to the booze, uh, very heavy. But we still needed to train, and we still needed to keep sharp, and we needed to be ready in case we needed to relieve a platoon, you know, if s- if, uh, if they took casualties. And my boozing got out of control, and the platoon let me know immediately, uh, that it was getting out of control. And I woke up with couple of them surrounding my rack where I was sleeping, and, uh, in the middle of the night. (laughs) And, uh...
- CWChris Williamson
And you were half-cut at this point? Still drunk?
- SRShawn Ryan
Half what?
- CWChris Williamson
Cut, like still drunk?
- SRShawn Ryan
Oh, no, I was sober here.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. This was a night when you hadn't been up?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yep.
- SRShawn Ryan
I was sober here. And, uh, you know, they tune you up a little bit and-
- CWChris Williamson
What's that mean?
- SRShawn Ryan
... kick your ass around a little bit-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- SRShawn Ryan
... let you know, you know, "Hey, you're fucking up and you need to s- get your shit together now."
- CWChris Williamson
Physically?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. So this is an enforcement mechanism that's commonly used?
- SRShawn Ryan
Used to be very common. Um, now I don't think it is as common. But, um, yeah, it used to be no questions asked. If you're, if you have a problem and it's, it's getting in the way of the team, then you're gonna be dealt with.
- CWChris Williamson
This is some Full Metal Jacket shit. That's what it sounds like.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you go back to being an effective pairing in a team after a bunch of people have just woken you up in the middle of the night and kicked the shit out of you?
- SRShawn Ryan
Well, you, you know, it's not... Like I said, it's not uncommon, you know. It's, it's, it was very common. And so you never really... I mean, as much as, as a disappointment, uh, as you are, there's no time for... There's no time to dwell. There's not really any time for grudges, and everybody gets out of line eventually. You know? So I wasn't the first one that it happened to. I wasn't the last one that hap- happened to. And, um, so you can't take it personal. You just need to be... And they do that in training too, you know? I mean, you're brought... Like I said, or like you said, I joined when I was 18, and so this all starts day one-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- 31:38 – 44:44
Why Shawn Changed his Career
- SRShawn Ryan
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So SEALs, you get through that. You only do a few years in the SEALs, is that right? How long are you there?
- SRShawn Ryan
Six years.
- CWChris Williamson
Six years, yeah. Uh, then you decide to pivot from the SEALs to the CIA. What led to that decision?
- SRShawn Ryan
Actually, I pivoted to a real estate agent after that.
- CWChris Williamson
Of course.
- SRShawn Ryan
And, uh, that did not... That went over like a fart in church.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SRShawn Ryan
But, uh, I just didn't have the communication skills, and I was coming right out of, uh, Iraq at that time.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the reason for leaving to go do real estate? Money?
- SRShawn Ryan
The reason I left, uh, the SEAL team, the big reason is I saw... I looked at all the older guys that had been around for a long time, and I started realizing none of these guys are married. Most of these guys don't even know their kids. Most of them come home to a black lab every night, or some type of a, uh, dog, pet, you know, and, and I could see how lonely that would be. And so I lo- I decided I don't wanna spend my entire career here because I want to have a family. And, um, at least I thought I did.
- CWChris Williamson
You're 24 at this age?
- SRShawn Ryan
24, I think.
- CWChris Williamson
There's a lot of self-awareness going on there.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. Well, I mean, you grow up real fast, you know, in the SEAL teams. That's, you know, kind of what I was talking about earlier. And, uh, so I saw that, and that was a major factor. Another thing was I started seeing politics, uh, come into the SEAL teams, and I didn't like that.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- SRShawn Ryan
It was... It was... When I went to... My first combat deployment was right after Red Wings happened. And, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
What was Red Wings, for the people that don't know?
- SRShawn Ryan
Red Wings was, uh, the Marcus Luttrell op, uh, Lone Survivor, if you've seen that movie.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- SRShawn Ryan
That was Red Wings. Came in, uh, relieved them, and whoever was up higher, you know, was pulling us off missions, literally just saying, "Uh, w- you're not doing that. You're not doing that." They actually ended the entire Afghanistan deployment for all SEALs early. Uh, that was my deployment, so I volunteered to go to Iraq. And, uh, I, that was just such a disappointment, uh, at the time because you, you train hard, you know, y- to go and do that job. And when you show up and you don't do the job that you've been training for very much and it's happening everywhere around you, that is infuriating. And, and so that, that was a, that was a factor. That had to do with politics. Um, but the major thing was the family stuff. I just, I saw it, and I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna end up with, uh, be 45 years old coming home to a black lab and that's it.
- CWChris Williamson
I had this, uh, idea I thought about a little while ago. So the place that I grew up in the UK was fantastic. Mom and Dad were amazing. But it was, uh, not a lot of people were like me necessarily, and not a lot of people were, uh, living the sort of life longer term that I felt was right. I didn't really know that it was wrong, but I just felt like there was something off. And I was thinking about (clears throat) a lot of the time, I'll hear from people who don't have role models around them, and that's why they resonate with stuff that they consume online because they finally get a community of admirable people that they can look up to that maybe they don't feel like they've got in their local environment. But what I realized is that a negative role model, an example of someone that you don't want to be like, is just as useful as someone that you do, because you can get a long way in life by just avoiding disaster and catastrophe. In fact, you could maybe even say that avoiding it is more important than getting things right. Like, not getting something wrong is a bigger deal than trying to get something right, because the getting something wrong will make you absolutely miserable. Whereas the getting something right, you still can, you can still fuck up. So I think being around guys who maybe didn't have that foresight, 'cause I'm gonna guess, let's say that someone's 45. They, the SEALs haven't been around long enough for them to have had another 20 years of predecessors before them, for them to be able to see the trajectory that they would maybe be on, right?
- SRShawn Ryan
Well, also they weren't coming out of... They, we went through a long time period where there was no war, you know, from Vietnam, a couple things in between there, like Somalia, you know, Iran, um, Panama, when we pulled Noriega out, stuff like that, but nothing like ongoing like Vietnam. So until... From Vietnam to-... two- uh, September 11, 2001. You know, there wasn't a whole lot going on. There was a lot-
- CWChris Williamson
Chill.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. And so, you saw this massive transformation of what... a SEAL, you know, kind of, I wouldn't say looks like, but, um, it was just very different, you know, when September 11th happened, because then you start seeing the trauma. Then it gets very real. You know, prior to that, it was, you know, train hard, play hard, let's have a good time, let's drink some booze. There's not really anything going on in the world. Now, this shit's real, you know? And, and... you know what I'm saying.
- CWChris Williamson
So why would you think that... the CIA... wouldn't give you the same 45-year-old Sean with a black lab?
- SRShawn Ryan
Well, so, I did (laughs) . But, uh, I got out, and I became a real estate agent. I couldn't stand it, I hated it. Then I got... I, I thought, "Well, I miss the camaraderie," so I got into a fire academy. I was gonna be a firefighter. And then I realized... well, I didn't realize, they basically told me that, "You're not gonna get a job for two years after this."
- CWChris Williamson
It's the same in the UK.
- SRShawn Ryan
And, and I started looking around, and, and I realized, if you don't have a grandpa or a dad or a mom or whoever who is in the fire service, you're not getting in. That's... it's pretty tight-knit, and it seems to be very close family ties in that service. And, you know, I was 24, and, and I had a house, and I was like, "Man, I got... I can't sit around here for two years hoping that somebody hires me." So, I had a friend, uh, who reached out and wanted my resume, and he was just like, "Hey, you know, it's contracting." I was like, "Absolutely not. I'm not doing contracting. I don't wanna go back-"
- CWChris Williamson
What's contracting mean?
- 44:44 – 49:02
Strong Rivalries within the CIA
- SRShawn Ryan
- CWChris Williamson
Going into the CIA, I'm gonna guess that their feeder profile must be multiple different organizations, probably people from Green Berets, Marines, SEALs-
- SRShawn Ryan
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... maybe like NSA, maybe intelligence operators or whatever. Perhaps not so much what you were doing, but I can imagine if someone happened to be an unbelievable translator or something, or had great communication skills, but they knew... Could shoot a bit, maybe they might try and put those in. My point being that it must be strange going from an environment where everybody's been trained differently, different cultures, different backgrounds, different understanding of what it means to clear a room, to communicate, to maybe even different call signs, different signals, all this stuff. What... H- how do you get a melting pot of these people coming from such diverse backgrounds to function at all together?
- SRShawn Ryan
That's a great question. (laughs) Um, and it is like that. It's... So the program that I went in, uh, you had to have six years, so I just barely made the requirement. You had to have six years of, uh, special operations experience, and so you... They're taking Delta guys, SEALs, Green Berets, Rangers, and MARSOC guys, with some Air Force PJs and CCT guys. So everybody... You know, we all have the same knowledge, but it's just minor differences. Um, the thing that really got in the way at the beginning was the, uh... What's the word I'm looking for? The, the rivalry between branches. You know, the SEAL... There's always like friendly rivalry and unfriendly rivalry. "You know, we're better than them at this, and d-..." And a lot of egos, right? A lot of eight personalities. And, um, so trying to figure out what the best way to do things with... If I'm a SEAL, and you're a MARSOC Marine, who's-
- CWChris Williamson
Who's right.
- SRShawn Ryan
Who's style are we going with?
- CWChris Williamson
What's the biggest difference that you noticed? Who was trained most differently, or who came in with the different... The most, uh, diverging opinions when it comes to ways to operate?
- SRShawn Ryan
I don't think there was a specific outfit that was like that. It was more the individuals, you know? That... And there were guys that couldn't... There was guys that couldn't let it go, you know? Like, like SEALs. It's like you gotta be able to let some of the things that you learned go and learn new things. When- once you're in, you know, it is... It's a fucking team again, and you have to blend in, and you have to function. And it's... A lot of times it's the real young guys, because their egos are going crazy, and then you got the real older guy, the older guys. You know, some of these guys coming in, they're 50... I've even worked with a 65-year-old, who was the baddest 65-year-old man I've ever met. But he's stuck in his ways. You know, he's done the same thing over and over and over again, and, and has not changed. And so, to change somebody like that, it's hard. And then you got the younger guys, like me, you know, who did six years and they think, "Hey, I'm, I'm the fucking best at what I do. I just... I'm a fucking SEAL." And nobody gives a shit if you're a (laughs) SEAL. They wanna know that you can do the job and that you can work as a team. And, uh... But the majority of guys, you know, uh, they like to share, you know, their experiences, and, and, and they like to hear your experiences, because they're learning. They're, they're becoming more well-rounded. And, um, so once you're in-... it- it- a lot of that kinda shit goes away.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, because you're not a team at the start, right?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's- there's still a degree of competition between you. There's no bonding, there's no reason to do that. And I suppose as well, if there was two different groups that felt like they both had skill sets, like, uh, d- I would imagine that if it comes to demolition or water stuff, most people would think, or I- m- might be worth listening to the SEAL. Uh, but then if there's someone that's doing shooting, then perhaps there's multiple different groups that have different styles, whatever it might be. Okay, so you- you get through and then
- 49:02 – 58:15
How the CIA is Different to the Seals
- CWChris Williamson
what's the biggest change in terms of the- the culture, CIA, SEALs to CIA?
- SRShawn Ryan
Totally different. Completely. Culture, totally different. The hazing, that kinda stuff, there's a to- a 100% no-go. There's no hazing, there's no tuning people up for fucking up. There's- you're working with women, you're working with nerds (laughs) . You know, you're- you're working with a whole slew of different people. In the SEAL teams, you're with 16 guys and everybody's a meat-eater. Everybody wants to go to war. Everybody's hardened. Everybody's in shape. You move over to the CIA and- and- and the outfit that I was in under the agency, all those aspects are still there, you know, with my immediate team. But then you're dealing with- you're dealing with spies. You're dealing with-
- CWChris Williamson
Intelligence people.
- SRShawn Ryan
... foreign intelligence people.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
You're de- you gotta wear a suit sometimes. You gotta wear what you're wearing in the SEAL team sometimes. One- one day you might be meeting the president of Afghanistan, or, you know, high-end diplomat, uh, from another country, and the next day you're humping the mountains, you know, in Afghanistan with an M4. I mean, you just ... the- the- the job is so broad-
- CWChris Williamson
Diapos, yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
... when you get over there-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
... and, uh, with the agency.
- CWChris Williamson
How much does that feel like ... Did it ever feel like it was a nerfed version of the world to you, like it was the- all of the sharp edges had been removed and you were having to be domesticated now? You gotta wear the suit, you gotta say please and thank you, you gotta smile. Or did you enjoy the transition into a more professional environment?
- SRShawn Ryan
I liked both. You know, there were times when I missed-
- CWChris Williamson
Being a hammer.
- SRShawn Ryan
Wh- when you're with 16 guys for two years straight, or six years, or, you know, however l- you're with your team, there's a lot of trust there, and you don't have to watch what you're saying, you don't have to watch your mouth, you don't have to worry about any of that stuff, you know. And w- when you move over to the agency, you- you have to watch your mouth. You can't be-
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause someone'll write you up if they're saying the wrong thing.
- SRShawn Ryan
... talking about the girl you wanna take home at the bar at the end of the night there. You can't ... You know, y- you just gotta be a lot more tight-lipped. And, um, that took some time for me to get used to (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
A little bit of adaptation.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. But, um, but I also liked it because it was a more sophisticated outfit, and- and the job was constantly changing. For example, when I was in Iraq, it was sniper op after sniper op after sniper op after sniper op. When I went to the CIA, it was all these different things, uh, and you know what I mean? It was- it was spying. It was meeting people. It was getting dirty. It was going out in- in gun trucks and humping mountains, and it was everything from the- from the teams, not all of it but a lot of it, with all this other stuff, and you just never know what the next day is gonna bring. It was really challenging and, uh, a lot of job satisfaction. I learned a ton -
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, is that the most fun that you had during your career?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. I think so. I liked both of them, but the agency was just little bit different. It was- it was ... I mean, it's the agency, you know. You're- you're- you're flying under the radar. You're- you might be one of three people in a country. I mean, it's just really- you're out there doing it on your own. And- and- and with the SEAL teams, you know, you've got air assets, you have drones, you have AC-130 gunships, you have Apache helicopters, you have, um, military units that are ready to come get you out if you get into trouble. With the agency, sometimes you have that, a lot of times you don't. A lot of times it's you and the few other guys that you're with and- or women.
- CWChris Williamson
How does that feel to be one of only three people, perhaps, in a country doing some clandestine operation, knowing that you're a- a contractor that the agency could wash their hands of?
- SRShawn Ryan
You're s- For me, I never really realized the magnitude of it until it was over. You know, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Probably for the best.
- SRShawn Ryan
So, yeah. You're- you're just so busy and embedded in what you're doing and how important it is and running all these different aspects of what's going on there. You're only one of, you know, a few people, um, and it's not always like that. But you don't have time to think about that kinda stuff. It's- it's just you're in the- you are in the moment all the time, you know, boom, boom, boom, getting things together, getting the next mission ready. And, uh, it's- it's really cool.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SRShawn Ryan
I- I love it. I- I- I did love that aspect of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that by design? Is the agency continuing to, um, move you quickly with momentum so that you don't get the opportunity perhaps to- to sit back and think, "Fuck, this is- th- this may be something that I should be scared about. This is maybe something that I should be concerned about"?
- SRShawn Ryan
Um, not necessarily because you get a choice, you know. Sometimes you get a choice. Sometimes-
- CWChris Williamson
What do you mean?
- SRShawn Ryan
Well, for example-I won't get a choice on what country I'm going to. They'll brief me, "Hey, you're going here," and you go to that country, and then when you meet with the leadership of that country, then they may disperse you somewhere else. You know what I mean? So, there are guys in this outfit that, they like to be at headquarters, where everybody's at. They have bars, they have women, men, parties, great food, awesome gym, you know, all the amenities. You sleep in an air conditioned room, you have your own room, queen size, king size bed-
- 58:15 – 1:07:39
The Future of Warfare
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think the future of warfare looks like?
- SRShawn Ryan
I don't think we're gonna see a lot of ground wars anymore.
- CWChris Williamson
What's that mean?
- SRShawn Ryan
I think it's gonna be a lot of like what China's doing now. I think it's gonna be a lot of Cold War, I guess is what you would call it, where it's not in your face kicking doors down, it's not invading necessarily. I- I mean, I know that's happening in Russia/Ukraine right now but what... If major superpowers start fighting I don't think it's gonna be a lot of ground... I don't think it's gonna be a lot of marines, I don't think it's gonna be a lot of special operations. I think it's gonna be a lot of computer stuff, hacking, propaganda, stuff like that, I think is what's-
- CWChris Williamson
So you go from-
- SRShawn Ryan
Or, you know, the-
- CWChris Williamson
Nukes.
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Okay.
- SRShawn Ryan
Then there's the other option.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, there's-
- SRShawn Ryan
But... I mean, now it seems like all these superpowers are starting to come to a head, and I- I... That looks very, very different than Taliban, Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabaab, you know, things like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you concerned at the moment about the state of global geopolitic peace and stuff?
- SRShawn Ryan
Ah. (laughs) Who isn't? I... Yeah, I definitely-
- CWChris Williamson
But you're a specialist, right? You understand this to a- a greater degree than me who's like, "The headlines look good this week," or head- "the headlines look bad this week."
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah. Well, let- let's look at China. Are you familiar with some of the stuff that's going on? You know, I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, give-give everybody a- a little overview of what they need to understand about what you think's important.
- SRShawn Ryan
Well, I mean, China's doing exactly what they should be doing, you know, for their goal. I mean, the fentanyl crisis that's happening th- with the cartels and their... That's all coming from China. China's teaching... They're bringing chemists in, they're teaching these cartels how to cook the world's most potent fentanyl. They al- they actually already have the next drug that's worse than fentanyl. They're teaching them how to do that. But China is leaning in-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know what that's called?
- SRShawn Ryan
No, I don't.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. But there's something out there which is more lethal, more addictive, more-
- SRShawn Ryan
Yes. It's already being introduced. And, um...You know, and so that's eating us. I mean, look at... You know, I just walked around Austin. There's all kinds of homeless out there, shooting, shooting drugs. You know, it's in every city. It's everywhere.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
And that's coming from China. You know, then you look at the green, you, you know, the green initiative. We're seeing it, this is what's gonna happen, you know, is... And, and I'm not necessarily anti-green. You know, I'm all about what's best for the planet. But, you know, we keep talking about, "Oh, we're gonna be energy-independent with green energy." No, we're not. We're not gonna be energy-independent, because China is going to supply all of our energy equipment, and so they're gonna be able to do exactly what Russia's gonna do to Germany this winter. They're gonna-
- CWChris Williamson
Sweet.
- SRShawn Ryan
... flip the switch, and they're gonna say goodbye to gasoline, and they're fucked. And that's what's gonna happen to us if we have China produce all of our solar panels, all of our lithium batteries, all of our, um, um, wind, you know, equipment. All they have to do is flip the switch, and let's be honest. I mean, how many products have we had come in from China that last? Not very many, you know. The quality control over there, they don't give a shit about that stuff. And so they're gonna control our energy, whether we like it or not, 'cause we're not making that stuff. They're buying up our farmland. They're paying off our politicians. I did an interview on that, on how many of th- And it's not one side, you know. That's, that's another thing that is, uh, a little concerning, is everybody... They're dividing us, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Bipartisan clandestine work.
- SRShawn Ryan
They're, they're dividing us, and they're doing a damn good job. A lot of the shit that you're seeing on social media, it's, uh, bots, you know, and, and it's, it's designed to split this country apart, and they're, it's working.
- CWChris Williamson
I learned that the second-biggest Facebook page before the BLM movement started was begun in the Internet Research Agency in Russia. That is where it was founded. And they were organizing rallies around the US, with real people turning up to them, but it was being organized from the IRA.
- SRShawn Ryan
It's crazy, right, when you think about it.
- 1:07:39 – 1:17:55
Advice for Personal Security
- CWChris Williamson
You moved into personal security after you left the CIA. This is something that a lot of people take very seriously here in America. What do you think most people get wrong when they're thinking about their personal security setup?
- SRShawn Ryan
It'll never happen to me. That's the biggest thing that they get wrong. They don't prep their weapon the right way. They don't train with it enough because they don't take it seriously 'cause they haven't seen it happen. Um, I think that's the biggest thing. Another thing that I see are when you get into the industry a little bit deeper and you have the, the people that make that a lifestyle is they get more than they need, and, and they buy all this equipment, and they don't learn how to use it because it's complicated. You know, I- I've, when I used to teach, um, people personal protection and stuff, they would, these guys would show up, you know, with lasers, with scopes, with all these things, and they don't even know. They, they can't even sight 'em in, you know, and, um, and those are the ones that are coming out that are asking for help. A lot of people just put these together, and they just blow money, and they, they really don't know how to use 'em, and, uh, I think that's a mistake too.
- CWChris Williamson
So people are replacing-
- SRShawn Ryan
'Cause you're asking about actual, like, products, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
But also in terms of mindset.
- SRShawn Ryan
Mindset is a major one. That's the biggest one. That's the biggest mistake.
- CWChris Williamson
They don't believe that it's gonna happen to them.
- SRShawn Ryan
They don't believe that it's gonna happen or which the people that come usually do, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, they know that it's going to, right? Like, oh, you mean in terms of training. Sorry, I was thinking in terms of a- a- an assailant or, you know, some bad guy that's gonna try and do something to you. Y- There is a, there is an asymmetry in that interaction because that person's already made the decision that they're going to rob your house or try and attack you in the street. They know that it's gonna happen.
- SRShawn Ryan
There's so many mindset things that, uh, people paint these, they paint these scenarios in their head, and that's how it's gonna go down. And it's not gonna go down like that, you know, and you see that not just in personal protection, but all the way to... A l- a lot of people think things are gonna happen here, you know, and they think that it's gonna be (claps hands) one day, it's gonna be, "All right, we gotta, uh, you know, we gotta fight for the country." That's not how these things happen. It's a slow rollout, and it gets very confusing, and-
- CWChris Williamson
You mean like a civilian militia that's gonna push back against whatever regime it needs to be pushed back against?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah, whatever, or if we get invaded by China or whatever happens.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, yeah. Yeah.
- SRShawn Ryan
You know, and, um, call it the zombie apocalypse.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- SRShawn Ryan
But you get these guys, and they think that one day that the zombie apocalypse is gonna happen, and we're gonna get invaded, and, and it's gonna be you need to eliminate everything that wears this or looks like that or... It's not how it goes down. How it goes down is very slow and it's confusing, and you really have to pay attention to target identification because the whole world just doesn't flip, you know, at once. Another thing that I see a lot or, you know, people don't... They wanna get real big into shooting, and they wanna prep for the end of the world or whatever, and they, they put so much emphasis on that, but they're physical f- They're 150 pounds overweight. More people die of a heart attack every year than anything else, and they don't have an AED and they're 150 pounds overweight. You know, an A-D, uh, defibrillator. And it's like, that's great that you're, you know, getting ready for all these things that might happen maybe one day, but you're 150 pounds overweight and you don't even know how to use a defibrillator, you know? And they don't like it when you tell them that, but that's the real threat. That's the most imminent threat, you know, to that person. They don't like it when you tell them that. Or you get somebody that's... A lot of overweight stuff here, but you get, "I'm just gonna jump on my rooftop" and, uh, "with all my guns." And it's like, "How the hell are you even gonna get up there?"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SRShawn Ryan
You know? (laughs) But, um, I, I mean, I'd like to see you try, but a lot of that, a lot of that kinda stuff or the, and, and painting the scenarios where if I, if somebody attacks me in a parking lot, this is how it's gonna go down. That's not how it's gonna go down. It's, it's... Before you engage somebody, I mean, there's so many processes that have to go through your head. Who's standing behind that person? Are you gonna shoot them? Can you actually shoot this person? You know, are they doing to you what you think they're doing to you? Like, it takes time to process that kinda stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why you said target, what was it?
- SRShawn Ryan
Identification.
- CWChris Williamson
Target identification is so important.
- SRShawn Ryan
You have to process all these things that are happening and within seconds, and-... most people, it'll be done (snaps fingers) and gone before they even realize what the hell happened. So does that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. Yeah. What about, um, when it comes to people's homes, what are the things that you wish more people knew about personal protection in the home, around the home?
- SRShawn Ryan
Just, I mean, basic stuff, you know. Um, a dog, like f- to protect your house, a dog is the number one deterrent for anything, for any, any... The FBI statistics appointed that for years and years and years.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that right?
- SRShawn Ryan
Yep. A dog is the number one deterrent. But, um, I think the biggest thing with, with home security nowadays is the internet. You know, people are posting... You can map your whole house out. You know, if you follow certain people on Instagram, especially some of these influencers, if you pay attention, you can map their whole damn house out.
- CWChris Williamson
Because they're taking videos and behind them is-
- SRShawn Ryan
Yep.
- 1:17:55 – 1:25:23
How to Deal with Threatening People
- SRShawn Ryan
- CWChris Williamson
How do you advise people to deal with threatening others in public? You're on a bus or you're on a Tube, I'm seeing increasing videos of these appear on the internet of someone that's just being belligerent somewhere in public. And if you're in an enclosed space where you can't get away right now, or maybe you can, maybe it's at a sports game or whatever. Like, have you got advice for people on how to deal with that?
- SRShawn Ryan
I mean, yeah. I- th- the thing that I tell them to do is just avoid it at all costs. I think a lot of these confrontations happen and, and it's unnecessary, it's two egos going at it. And, uh, like, for example, it just happened to me yesterday. You know, we're sitting... I was sitting in the park, I stayed at the JW Marriott and there's a park across the street. And homeless guy asked me for something and I was like, "Sorry man, I don't have anything." And he got irate.... with me, charged me, was telling me I needed to stand up and da da da da da, and, and I was just like, "Hey, man, just you gotta be careful, you know?" Um, you really need to be careful with people that don't have anything to lose when you have something to lose. And so, the first thing I would say is just get the hell out of there. I- i- it... If, if there's any possibility of you being able to exit that situation-
- CWChris Williamson
So get off at the next tube stop-
- SRShawn Ryan
... then get off the exit.
- CWChris Williamson
... get off at the next bus stop.
- SRShawn Ryan
Just let it go, you know? I think a lot of people can't just let it go. Um, but if you're in imminent danger, then, I mean, you have no, really no choice but to confront it, in my mind. And so I would advise, especially today, you know, crime's on the rise. There's rioting, not right now, but it happens a lot more than it used to. And, I mean, carry a gun. Gun's gonna give you that confidence, especially if you know how to use it, you know? And, and all kinds of different scenarios, I mean, my wife was a realtor in Boca Raton, Florida, showing really high-end houses, and it took one time where she got in an uncomfortable scenario with somebody that wanted to come look at the house, she didn't have a gun. That never happened again, you know? And so I would, I, I, I'm a huge gun advocate. I really think that if, if you have the means to get one, you have the time to learn how to use it-
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- SRShawn Ryan
... then you should be carrying one. It's just different times today.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you hope for a time when that's not the case?
- SRShawn Ryan
Absolutely. I hope for a time-
- CWChris Williamson
So I-
- SRShawn Ryan
... when that's not the case.
- CWChris Williamson
... what I see among some people, especially the sort of uber preppers or the doomer optimists, as they're, some of them are now called, there is a little bit of a degree of glee at the potential conflict that's coming.
- SRShawn Ryan
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's almost like they want it to happen.
- SRShawn Ryan
Well, those are the people I was talking about earlier that are preparing for the zombie apocalypse that are gonna jump on their rooftop, and those people are living in a fantasy land. They've not been to war. They never will be. I think that they feel a void in their life because they never went to war, and so they're, they're like hoping for some kinda crazy opportunity to, for something to happen.
- CWChris Williamson
Show all of the hours that they've spent at the range or-
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... whatever it is. Yeah. There is a... That's an element, uh, a very unique one that I've noticed since I've been in America, that there are, there is a contingent of people that I think, uh, relish the opportunity of a ballistic conflict happening-
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... regularly. And the opportunity for them to put... For them to justify their preparation, their money, their time, their, uh, sense of belonging or, um, righteousness about what they've been preaching, uh, and, and telling their friends about for so long. And that, "Yeah, like, I want to show that all of the work that I've put in was worthwhile."
- SRShawn Ryan
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you say, what, what you're saying is that you want to shoot somebody, somebody that's a bad guy maybe, or somebody that deserved it. But if you want to, that, your threshold for when you are actually going to pull your weapon out to use it is going to be lower than other people's. And that means that you're potentially going to escalate the situation sooner than it needed to be. And that's what I get concerned about. That's one of the things that I get worried about, that, you know, there's a contingent of people out there that, very small contingent, and I'm sure that most people are, are doing their personal protection for the right reasons, but that are, are doing it because they want to prove something.
Episode duration: 1:48:36
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