Not Sucking At Fatherhood, DIY & Halloween - Alfie Brown | Modern Wisdom Podcast 395

1. 0:00 – 0:38

   Intro

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      It's like you wear the baby as a backpack, but it's on your front, whatever that's called.

   2. ABAlfie Brown0:04

      A papoose.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      Is that what it's called?

   4. ABAlfie Brown0:06

      A papoose.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:08

      Very nice.

   6. ABAlfie Brown0:09

      And then they all say ergonomic on them nowadays, because that's a word that we now like. Un-ergonomic papooses kill people. And I don't know, ergonomic means it, like, works with your body. Well, yeah, it should have always been ergonomic. One of these words that you've used to... Like skin-friendly soap. Yeah, I was hoping-

   7. CWChris Williamson0:24

      (laughs)

   8. ABAlfie Brown0:24

      ... that it was gonna be skin-friendly. I was gonna use it on my skin. What are you... (wind blowing)

   9. CWChris Williamson0:32

      Alfie Brown, welcome to the show.

   10. ABAlfie Brown0:34

       Thanks so much for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:37

       It's a pleasure to have

2. 0:38 – 9:58

   Celebrating Halloween as a Father

   1. CWChris Williamson0:38

      you. Last night was Halloween. How did you, how did you spend your Halloween?

   2. ABAlfie Brown0:43

      Um, I always, uh, spend my Halloween with the lights off, uh, with my knees tucked, uh, in between my arms, pretending that I'm not in, uh, so that I don't have to... Um, and that is, that's the way I've been for about the last decade. So to now have kids that want to, to have to be more involved, the l- the tiny involvement that I used to have as a, as a man with no children, has now been just so greatly, uh, exaggerated and has, has, has galloped forth into this most unpleasant of areas. Um, so I just don't have the same patience faculty for other people's children as I do for mine. Quite understandably from an evolutionary perspective. Why would I care about them? But that means, like, to tolerate them is such a, i- i- it's (laughs) such a drain on your resources as a human being. Uh, so, uh, my... I was lucky, I've looked after my baby whilst my, uh, girlfriend took my, uh, two elder children out trick or treating. But the day before, my, it was my son's birthday party. He had a, uh, seventh birthday party, and, uh, and it was a Halloween-themed thing. So we all played games and I got them all to do their scariest laughs, and I had to kind of, like, compere the thing. There's no scarier gig than that, compereing a child's birthday party. Man, oh, man, it was a nightmare. Uh, that was the true Halloween experience.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:19

      I love how you're, you've been sort of labeled as, "He's a performer." You're used to being on stage, aren't you? I mean, comedian, child's perfo- I just go, six and two, three, you must have all... You've got the mics. I mean, you've got the skills.

   4. ABAlfie Brown2:30

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson2:30

      You can do this. People just presume-

   6. ABAlfie Brown2:33

      It's-

   7. CWChris Williamson2:33

      ... that you're used to being on stage, so you can do kid stuff.

   8. ABAlfie Brown2:35

      I said this the other day on, uh, but I, I'll, I'll... I'm happy to, uh, say it again. Um, I have performed at Cardiff, uh, Jonglers, which is in an Oceana with fish tanks that sort of, um, blockade the hen parties in, uh, so that they can't leave. I think I was on at about 11 o'clock at night because the gig had been delayed, so all they'd had to do was drink. And that audience still had more of a kind of semblance of care about my ego than the seven-year-olds. And as soon as you display any sort of like, "I'm a cool, fun guy who likes kids," the children will just start hitting you. Where, wh- can you tell me about that? Can anybody, can a psychologist please report to me on how or why children, as soon as they... "I'll just hit you now."

   9. CWChris Williamson3:28

      (laughs)

   10. ABAlfie Brown3:31

       Three of them, because they like... 'cause I did silly, scary, funny laughs. "I'll hit him now."

   11. CWChris Williamson3:38

       That was them showing affection?

   12. ABAlfie Brown3:40

       Yeah. Is it like pulling on my pigtails? Is that what it's like? Like, saying, "I like you, so I'll hit you," because I don't know how to express myself because my brain's not fully developed?

   13. CWChris Williamson3:48

       (laughs)

   14. ABAlfie Brown3:50

       Is that what it is? (laughs) I've absolutely no idea. But, um, I think I did quite a good job. The weird thing is, because of the kind of comedy that I do, lots of people have always, um, uh, like, crappy comperes have always taken me off stage by going, "Um, there's Alfie Brown, he is available for children's parties." Well, yeah, I am actually.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:13

       (laughs) Yeah, and he's experienced.

   16. ABAlfie Brown4:13

       And I'm pretty good at it, pretty good at it, actually. Managed not to say anything awful. Did a kind of light-hearted joke, the parents liked it. You know, it was a... It was actually a really lovely day. And it, the crucial thing was it only lasted three hours.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:27

       Very, very, very nice.

   18. ABAlfie Brown4:28

       I think that was the

   19. NANarrator4:29

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson4:29

       My, uh, my business partner has... He's got three little ones. He's got a three, four-month-old, two-year-old, and a four-year-old, and two dogs, and a wife. And I'm, I'm pretty sure that they managed to coordinate an outfit. They were all werewolves, including the dogs-

   21. ABAlfie Brown4:48

       (laughs)

   22. CWChris Williamson4:49

       ... yesterday. So they went out trick or treating. (laughs)

   23. ABAlfie Brown4:52

       Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson4:52

       And my, my business partner's got one of those... You, you... It's like you wear the baby as a backpack, but it's on your front, whatever that's called.

   25. ABAlfie Brown4:59

       A papoose.

   26. CWChris Williamson5:01

       Is that what it's called?

   27. ABAlfie Brown5:02

       A papoose.

   28. CWChris Williamson5:03

       Very nice.

   29. ABAlfie Brown5:04

       It's, it's, it's, it's called a pa... And then they all say ergonomic on them nowadays, because that's a word that we now like. 'Cause it... Well, un-ergonomic papooses kill people.

   30. CWChris Williamson5:15

       (laughs)
3. 9:58 – 22:32

   Finding A Persona

   1. ABAlfie Brown9:58

   2. CWChris Williamson9:58

      What do you think-

   3. ABAlfie Brown9:58

      What a shame.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:59

      ... why, why unmarketable? What's wrong with, what's, what's the challenge with the marketing?

   5. ABAlfie Brown10:03

      Um, I don't think I have a strong enough identity. I think people, uh, you need to be good at... Have you ever written a treatment for a TV program?

   6. CWChris Williamson10:11

      I know what they are.

   7. ABAlfie Brown10:13

      Uh, when you write a treatment for a TV program, uh, you have something underneath the title called a logline, which is essentially, you know, the program is, uh, it's called, th- the show's called Red and, uh, it's a sitcom. Uh, it's like, uh, Only Fools and Horses meets a caravanning holiday. And that's what it is, it's, uh, Only Fools and Horses meets a cara-... And that's, oh, okay, I know exactly what it is. I almost don't need to read the rest of this because everything I'm about to read has been so informed by the logline. And I think as a comedian now, you need to have a good logline, and I don't have a good logline. Uh, I mean, at least, it, it, I don't, uh, it's fairly nondescript. I suppose having children helps and, uh, the style of comedy that I do sort of helps. Most of my shows have, uh, thematically, um, similar structures and, uh, not structures but, uh, they're thematically similar, I should say. Um, and I, maybe it's one of those things, like, uh, you and I were speaking about when it's you, you're a very bad judge of what it is.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:28

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ABAlfie Brown11:29

      Uh, but I even think that the way that I, I was thinking about this, and I don't think it, like, looks particularly good or maybe likable or maybe it's, again, me overthinking it that when we think about how we dress, we think about how we're aesthetically presenting ourselves, especially as somebody who's on stage performing and delivering a, a set of ideas to an audience and performing them with some sort of attitude that befits what I've made decisions about. I've made a decision to have a beard, albeit that might be because I just thought it might be a good way to, uh, put my chin into the singular.

   10. CWChris Williamson12:03

       (laughs)

   11. ABAlfie Brown12:04

       Uh...

   12. CWChris Williamson12:05

       (laughs)

   13. ABAlfie Brown12:07

       (laughs) Um, uh, but I've made a decision about everything, so why not? I, I, I, I wear these shirts, these kind of nondescript cotton Oxford shirts from business suit kind of providers, and think, "Why am I hiding, uh, so much?" Uh, so maybe thinking more in these terms about how we're, um, uh, presenting ourselves isn't something to be sniffed at. I think comedy purists have this idea whereby they think, "Well, I just want to do jokes, and I'm a joke purist." But I think the whole element of performance, just because, uh, cinema is a visual medium doesn't mean that we don't think, uh, about the music or about the font of the titles or, um, you know-

   14. CWChris Williamson12:52

       And it's all cohesive.

   15. ABAlfie Brown12:53

       ... whatever. It's all cohesive, yeah. And I think I need to be thinking a little bit more in- uh, cohesively about things like my logline and my aesthetic. If you look at the pictures for the last series of Live at the Apollo, they were all dressed like cartoon characters. Like every- and it's great. They all look great. Everybody on it looks, everybody on it looks great. Uh, but, uh, they all are dressed v- w- as, uh, in statement pieces.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:20

       Yeah.

   17. ABAlfie Brown13:21

       Uh-

   18. CWChris Williamson13:21

       It's like archetypes, right? It's the-

   19. ABAlfie Brown13:23

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson13:23

       ... same as when you have a TV show and you know that the maiden, uh, is got big eyes, and the villain wears black, and the hero's sort of muscled like this, and the nerd's got glasses, and it's a shortcut because it, it's an energy-saving device for our brains. I don't need to work out, "Oh, hang on a second. I, I had this vision of him, but then he's, he's added this bit on the side, like a lump of clay that doesn't look like it's supposed to be there. And what's that bit? 'Cause that bit, I thought, I thought I had this sphere, this perfect round ball, that was a box that I could put him in, but now there's this bit on the side of it." And, um, yeah. That's... I, I think about this a lot actually. Uh, I did a TEDx Talk at the start of the year about something very similar, about the fact that we live our lives in archetypes and we, we look to the examples that other people set and that (clears throat) that cohesion, that ease of, uh, being able to work out what, what someone is, what someone's-

   21. ABAlfie Brown14:15

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson14:15

       ... what someone's got going on, it lends... Uh, it, it makes affinity more easy with people. Um, but the problem is if you don't fall into one of those archetypes naturally, you end up having to be performative in order to do that. So a lot of people, they are friends with others based on a performance, a role that they're playing of the person that they think their friends want them to be. So I see this with young guys a lot. I do a lot of nightlife, and you see, I, there's... I was one of them. I was a, a professional party boy for a decade, as a guy who now wants to talk about whether you can genetically engineer human life to reach other star systems or the philosophical basis for good. Like, that's-

   23. ABAlfie Brown14:54

       (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson14:55

       (laughs) ... you know, so standing in the front door of a nightclub was never facilitating that, but I'd created this, this person that I could be 'cause it was effective and, and, and people could, could get it. "Oh, it's Chris. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big name on campus. Yeah, yeah, yeah." Shagger in that. And that was the persona. Um, but the sacrifice that you make is that if you don't fall into one of those charact- uh, characteristics, uh, one of those archetypes, that you end up having to kind of shave bits off you.

   25. ABAlfie Brown15:22

       Uh, how conscious is this persona? Like, at the time, if you're saying this persona that you had is, you know, party boy, great night out, good pint, good shagger, whatever. Uh, big shagger, not good shagger. I couldn't possibly comment. Um, but how, when you're in... 'Cause that's 10 years.

   26. CWChris Williamson15:40

       Yeah.

   27. ABAlfie Brown15:41

       Are you going home the next day going, "God, I really better read more about Aristotle's Eudaimonia," or-

   28. CWChris Williamson15:47

       No, no, no. So that, that was, um, me just doing the thing that I thought would get me popular. So all I was trying to do was please other people.

   29. ABAlfie Brown15:55

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson15:55

       And my route to doing that was split testing a type of me, and then when one of them was successful, just continuing to go down it. But it wasn't, uh, it wasn't thought out in advance, it wasn't done reflectively, and it took t- 10 years and then a, a season of Love Island for me to go, "Oh, fuck. What, how did I get here? This really doesn't feel... There's something wrong." And then you do a ton of self-work and inquiry, and you scrape off all of the mud and the, the, the feces that has accumulated on top of the person that you are. And then eventually, you get to something that approximates truth, right? You end up going, "Right. All of this that I thought I was, all of these opinions I had, all of these ideas about the world-
4. 22:32 – 34:03

   Problems of Fatherhood

   1. ABAlfie Brown22:32

   2. CWChris Williamson22:32

      Comedy Without Errors. Uh, I wanna talk about, um, being a dad and when you start to do, like, dad stuff-

   3. ABAlfie Brown22:41

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson22:41

      ... because I'm not a dad yet, that I know of. And the, the gulf between me and my father-

   5. ABAlfie Brown22:53

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:53

      ... when he was my father, he still is my father, but you know what I mean, when I was a child and things needed doing-

   7. ABAlfie Brown23:00

      And he was your age.

   8. CWChris Williamson23:00

      ... doing, like, DIY or going to the sh- the, to just thi- dad, dad, dad shit, right?

   9. ABAlfie Brown23:07

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson23:07

       I just feel like there are certain archetypal dad qualities that I don't have. W- do they... What happens? Do you do a course? Is, do they-

   11. ABAlfie Brown23:18

       (sighs)

   12. CWChris Williamson23:18

       ... just arise?

   13. ABAlfie Brown23:20

       Uh, well, I think, uh, that there is an element of, um, uh, sinking, uh, well, swim, trying to swim and indeed sinking, uh, or, or, or, or puzzling it out. I don't think it's ever been easier because there are lots of YouTube t- tutorials on how to, um, on how to resurface your deck, which is, I think, uh, you know, pretty, m- I think that's like advanced dadding, isn't it? Uh, y- you know, when you get your, uh, power washer and you power o- off, wash off all the old varnish and you re-varnish your, your deck.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:53

       That's peak dad.

   15. ABAlfie Brown23:55

       Um, (clicks tongue) I was pretty bad at that, and I think we lost the deposit on that flat. Uh, so I (laughs) did have to make many apologies to many different people sadly. Uh, but, (laughs) so stupid. I repainted it orange, and, like, without asking the landlord. What an idiot. Uh, tried to put up lots of shelves, but there was loads of, like, bits of m- m- metal in the concrete so the drill wouldn't go in, so I couldn't put up the sh- I felt like I'd r-... And this is lockdown, and lockdown was my first-... foray into, um, into, i- i- into, into trying to do the more DIY stuff. In terms of being a provider, I earn significantly less than my partner, Jessie. So, I mean, I d- I do understand there is a, uh, maybe an evolutionary impulse that you have to overcome to want to kinda come home with a zebra in your jaws and say, "Look what I got for everybody. Isn't it great that I made sure that everybody's still alive?" I ... Y- ... A- and there's an extent to which I feel t- or feel decorative as a father. Um ...

   16. CWChris Williamson25:06

       (laughs)

   17. ABAlfie Brown25:06

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson25:06

       (laughs)

   19. ABAlfie Brown25:10

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson25:15

       (laughs) The sperm donor that stayed around. (laughs)

   21. ABAlfie Brown25:17

       Yeah. Like, uh ... (laughs) This sperm donor's keen, isn't he?

   22. CWChris Williamson25:23

       (laughs)

   23. ABAlfie Brown25:23

       Look at him, still knocking about after seven years.

   24. CWChris Williamson25:26

       (coughs)

   25. ABAlfie Brown25:27

       Loser. Um, (laughs) so, uh, I, uh, I, I, I, I mean, I'm really grateful for, uh, my ... But she ... Like, the, when you're s- looking at her with a newborn and you see her breastfeeding, and then, like, earning the money as well, you think, "Well, shall I ... What shall I do? Shall I just h- am I, shall I ha- hack, uh, can I go to the pub, then, if you're gonna do that?"

   26. CWChris Williamson25:55

       (laughs) If you've got-

   27. ABAlfie Brown25:55

       If you've got enough-

   28. CWChris Williamson25:55

       ... everything sorted.

   29. ABAlfie Brown25:57

       If you've got, if you've got a handle on everything, I'll just go out and see Vas for a bit. He's cooking, um, uh, a, a goose or something. Uh, (laughs) there you go, Chappelle, there's a callback.

   30. CWChris Williamson26:08

       Yeah.
5. 34:03 – 46:31

   How Lockdown Impacted Alfie

   1. ABAlfie Brown34:03

   2. CWChris Williamson34:03

      So I, I, I heard this story, um, from a psychologist I spoke to a couple of months ago, and he said that during World War II there were these patients who were completely catatonic in psychiatric wards in London, completely comatose, unresponsive, just roll them over, clean the bedpan, feed them however the, however you feed them, nurses would do this thing, unresponsive for years and years and years. Uh, bombs start falling during the Blitz, and there are fewer ambulance and fire truck drivers than there are ambulances and fire trucks to drive. So the, there's this shortage. And these men, mostly men, most people in psychiatric wards were men, uh, these men got up, people that had been comatose for years and years and years, got up out of bed and started driving fire trucks and ambulances around London, helping out. And his point was that, um, male mentality in terms of goal-setting and also depression but principally goal-setting, is done based on trying to do things. "If you give a man the ability to, uh, a goal, the ability to achieve it, he'll crawl over broken glass with a smile," was his argument. Um, and you see this with these men, that they were motivated out of a completely comatose state to go and do a thing. And I think that that's the difference when you look at what women are motivated by. You know, a, a woman, (clears throat) I would guess on average more so, would be happy just being emotional support. If, if women had children with other women or, you know, in lesbian relationships where you, one of the girls is pregnant or whatever, the one that's in the corner is perhaps more likely to just, "I was there for emotional support. I felt..." Whereas your compulsion to, to do a thing-

   3. ABAlfie Brown35:46

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson35:46

      ... is actually quite restrictive.

   5. ABAlfie Brown35:49

      Yes. I think during, uh, lockdown I, a lot of the time I said, when p- people would say, you know ... I, I, I wasn't too much of a drag that I said this to absolutely everybody, but, you know, when my mum would ask me how I was, I would often say, "Oh, well, not so good actually because I've had my, I've had my purpose taken away." Uh, and feeling like y- your purpose is now, well, it's gone. It, that, that does send you, you know, not, uh, to the psychiatric facility, uh, although, you know, given, uh, you know, let's do a fourth lockdown and see where we are. Um, I incredibly, incredibly depressed and missed it all so much, and I think I missed...I spoke to my, uh, hairdresser, who I do go and see on a, a quarterly basis. And, um, and he said w- first haircut I got after lockdown, I said, "How did you find it?" And he said, "I just missed being good at something." And, uh, and I, you know, awf-

   6. CWChris Williamson36:50

      Fuck, that's such a good quote.

   7. ABAlfie Brown36:53

      Yeah, I almost started weeping. Uh, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson36:56

      "I miss being good at something."

   9. ABAlfie Brown36:58

      I just missed being good... Yeah. And I mean, I started trying to do bits and pieces, and I started doing Instagram Lives in the hope that that might, uh, uh, you know, put a little, uh, nicotine patch over the craving. But, eh, it didn't because you've developed a set, a very s- specific set of skills, uh, that, uh, w- are suited to stand up. So, uh, very hard to get that to translate. And oh- also the endorphins and the, and, and the, and the, the experience of communicating with a group in a live sense, and having something, uh, uh, as, uh, the, the, the messily emotional reality of other people who are present, uh, w- was gone because it would just be, you say something funny on Instagram Live and a flutter of hearts come up from the corner of the screen.

   10. CWChris Williamson37:54

       And that's it, that's all you've got. I mean... (clears throat)

   11. ABAlfie Brown37:55

       You think, "Well that, that feels good, but it doesn't feel that good." It, you know...

   12. CWChris Williamson37:58

       The reason that, the reason that I went to go and see you in Edinburgh was because Sloss had told me that I should do. I was like, "Hey man, I'm, I'm up this weekend. Who should I go and see?" And he said, "Alfie Brown's got a show on, show on." Like, "You go, go see that." And, um, but he, he said the same. He was, he was having arguments with his girlfriend, uh, now fiance, that he has the most perfect relationship with, uh-

   13. ABAlfie Brown38:21

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson38:21

       ... because he needed her to love him like 500 strangers a night.

   15. ABAlfie Brown38:26

       (laughs) Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson38:28

       And he was, he was, she was still doing her thing, and he was moping around the house smoking weed and playing Xbox badly, and poking her and being, "Hey, what are you doing?"

   17. ABAlfie Brown38:40

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson38:41

       "Hey, love me."

   19. ABAlfie Brown38:43

       Yes, I think I, you know, I did a lot of... I can remember once my girlfriend was trying to watch, um, that Sally Rooney thing that seemed to... It's like ev- after every single episode you go, "How was that only 20 minutes long? It felt like it was going on forever." Anyway, um, I would, I was like, I remember bouncing on the trampoline, uh, like, 'cause we bought the kids a trampoline during lockdown. And just like a little exercise trampoline that you use, that old people use to strengthen their bones. And, um, (laughs) she was trying to watch Old People. I was bouncing on the trampoline staring at her kind of, like, "Why aren't you looking at me? Like why are you..."

   20. CWChris Williamson39:19

       (laughs)

   21. ABAlfie Brown39:19

       And like, and then I, and then I looked at myself and thought, "I've gone, I've, I've gone mad. This is like not, this is not an appropriate way for an adult man to be." But I was so starved of everything, uh, that I just couldn't, I could, I could barely function. And when I'd speak to comedians who say they didn't miss it, I, there is no stronger and more vociferous "fuck you" that I have for anybody else in the world. Don't do it then. Don't do it, 'cause you just, you know, your gigs are gigs that I could have. I'll have yours then, 'cause I'll do two, I'll do two f- I'll do one for me and one for you, and I'll do them both with a smile on my face, okay?

   22. CWChris Williamson40:01

       (laughs) Because you've had to jump up and down on a trampoline to assuage your feelings of uselessness.

   23. ABAlfie Brown40:06

       Uh, yeah, I've been singing, I've been, I learnt the Moana rap to impress my children.

   24. CWChris Williamson40:10

       (laughs)

   25. ABAlfie Brown40:10

       Like, I've, I've, there is no depths to which I haven't stooped to try and, uh-

   26. CWChris Williamson40:16

       Feel relevant again. (laughs)

   27. ABAlfie Brown40:17

       ... extract some screed of, "Do I have your love? Am I entertaining you?"

   28. CWChris Williamson40:23

       (laughs)

   29. ABAlfie Brown40:23

       "Have I made your life better? Have I illuminated the, the torpor of our everyday experiences for you?" And then, uh, between that, between this kind of mad, uh, court jester type character to slumped in an armchair staring at a book I'm not reading. Didn't read one book during lockdown. Uh, I mean, an incredible sense of atrophy to the whole experience of everyday life. And then, and, and nothing, no, no, no ability to go and do the thing that you love to do. Awful business.

   30. CWChris Williamson41:01

       Yeah, man. It's, it's, dude, this is the thing. So few people have spoken about lockdown after lockdown. I think everyone kind of was a bit bored of the same conversation over and over again, "Oh, it's hard, isn't it?"
6. 46:31 – 59:03

   Alfie’s Health & Fitness Journey

   1. CWChris Williamson46:31

      your ... Speaking of atrophy and weightlifting, I wanna know about your fitness journey, 'cause you're starting a, a, a foray into health and wellness, are you not?

   2. ABAlfie Brown46:40

      Well, I'm so incredibly, um ... I'm so incredibly gullible, and so incredibly, uh, uh l- like ... I have a, a sort of fantasy idea of the m- of the man that I would be. And th- if you look at him in his com- com- like, i- in his complete form, all of his facets are incompatible with each other. So there's a heavy-drinking guy who's in great shape, and then you're immediately done, uh, because I love ... I'm a g- I'm a g- I'm a good pint, and I like ... I haven't quite worked out this kind of balance yet whereby I manage to ... And I saw that I was at a kind of, uh, crossroads as it were, uh, in terms of being a, like, a 34-year-old father of three just eating all their food all the time, and b- uh, uh, and, and being exhausted, so having to just fuel yourself on scraps, and, you know, uh, uh l- like endless packets of oatcakes with the hummus in the fridge, and, and feeling like, "Was that really a meal, or am I-"

   3. CWChris Williamson47:48

      (laughs)

   4. ABAlfie Brown47:50

      "It doesn't ... I should still eat a meal. I'll eat a meal as well." Um, so I just don't think (laughs) I had very good habits, and then, like, you know, uh, loads of red wine, and, and great beer. Anyway, I mean, a f- a th- so a fitness journey, I'm not sure ... Like, a fitness is quite a highfalutin word to, you know, I, I don't want my knees and my heart to give out by the time I'm 45 journey is the kind of journey that I'm-

   5. CWChris Williamson48:16

      (laughs) I'm avoiding, I'm avoiding the diseases of kings from the Middle Ages.

   6. ABAlfie Brown48:22

      Y- yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson48:22

      If I can evade gout by 50, I'm gonna consider this a success.

   8. ABAlfie Brown48:26

      I don't want, I don't want gout. Uh ... Although, you know, g- gout is a kind of like, an emblem of-

   9. CWChris Williamson48:32

      (laughs) It's a fucking badge of honour.

   10. ABAlfie Brown48:33

       ... a really good time.

   11. CWChris Williamson48:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

   12. ABAlfie Brown48:34

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like how soldiers get a Purple Heart. You know, people, looshes get gout.

   13. CWChris Williamson48:41

       (laughs) Right. So you're-

   14. ABAlfie Brown48:44

       Uh-

   15. CWChris Williamson48:44

       ... you're trying to just-

   16. ABAlfie Brown48:46

       I, um-

   17. CWChris Williamson48:46

       ... extend your mortality a little bit.

   18. ABAlfie Brown48:48

       I've started doing high-intensity interval training courses. I don't like saying HIIT 'cause it's got two Is in it so it sounds crap. Um, and, uh, and I do them with, uh, energized and, um, wonderful, gorgeous men and women shouting at me, uh, and, uh-

   19. CWChris Williamson49:08

       In a, in a gym or at home?

   20. ABAlfie Brown49:10

       In a gym. In a gym. I go to a gy- yeah, they're like a fitness class people round the corner. Eh, and it's brilliant, and actually that's the best thing I've ever done. When I'm at the gym I spend the whole time, you know, o- on Twitter getting angry and listening to a podcast and yawning at the bench press, uh, thing. So, and I, and I don't do any cardio 'cause it's too awful. So, uh, and I don't... Also, it's, it's, it's the same... Fitness to me is the same as having a podcast. I just want somebody who knows everything to be able to go, "Here's how long the podcast should be. Here's, uh, what you should do on YouTube. Here's what you should cut up onto Reels. Here's how often you should do it. Here's the best day to put it out. Here's, uh, if you should do Instagram TV as well. Here's how to market it on Twitter. Th- there's all your information. Go away, do that, and if it's good then it'll work and if it's not then it won't. And it, also if it's not good it still might work 'cause, you know, and if it's good it still..." I mean, who knows, but, you know, at least you know that you're doing the right thing. And the fitness thing as well is like, "Oh, shall I eat... Shall I eat slow carbs? Shall I focus on my gut health? Shall I eat butter coffee?" And, like, uh, I mean it was just disgusting. And I'm, you know, predominantly vegan anyway so it would have to be sunflower butter coffee, which I'm not even sure really works 'cause I'm not sure if the science abides by sunflower butter coffee. Um, or should I just cut fat out or should I just count calories or should I do intermittent fasting? And all of these things. Could I just have somebody say to me what's effective, please? And then I'll just do it. And, and, and have done with it, and it will be so much easier to, uh, uh, to, to, to keep off this, uh, this layer of dad fat that I've accumulated over the last three or four years. Um, and, and, and if I'm keeping it off, yeah, that's easier isn't it? It's easier to keep it off than it is to-

   21. CWChris Williamson51:07

       Correct.

   22. ABAlfie Brown51:08

       ... get rid of it.

   23. CWChris Williamson51:08

       Correct, yeah.

   24. ABAlfie Brown51:09

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson51:09

       Well, man, I think you've reached... If I was to give a bunch of different advice to someone that was doing what you were doing, the first thing I would say is join a class because you outsource your accountability and your motivation and your intensity to a group of people. You get a bit of-

   26. ABAlfie Brown51:25

       And your money.

   27. CWChris Williamson51:26

       ... and your... Oh, you... And your money, but fuck man. When you-

   28. ABAlfie Brown51:27

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson51:27

       That's, that's one of the things that I really don't get. I understand if you have legitimate financial restrictions that do not permit you to be able to pay between 70 and £180 per, per month to get someone to shout at you and tell you what exercises to do in a, in a class setting. I understand.

   30. ABAlfie Brown51:43

       Yeah.
7. 59:03 – 1:08:00

   Finding Your "Thing"

   1. CWChris Williamson59:03

      getting into soup, I think, when I saw you live, about-

   2. ABAlfie Brown59:05

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson59:05

      ... you did something to do with soup.

   4. ABAlfie Brown59:07

      I did, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson59:07

      And it made me- it made me think about a- a brief period where I tried to get into candles. So I thought... I wanted a thing. You know you f- you feel like you need a thing.

   6. ABAlfie Brown59:20

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson59:20

      Or you- you want a th- it's- this is gonna be m- well, so what are you into? Oh, uh...

   8. ABAlfie Brown59:25

      Ju- is this during lockdown?

   9. CWChris Williamson59:26

      Yes, yes.

   10. ABAlfie Brown59:26

       This sort of feels like a lockdown obsession, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:28

       Correct, yes. So beeswax, soy wax, all different incense varieties, ones that burn in-

   12. ABAlfie Brown59:36

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson59:36

       ... and then they combine and the- the wax is kind of together but then when you burn them it- it- it congeals and then you get multiple different... Uh, and I really got into candles, and I just- it got me thinking about people that want a thing-

   14. ABAlfie Brown59:49

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson59:49

       ... quite badly, and I wanted a thing, and I tried to make it candles. And all that I achieved was I coated, um, the ceiling of this room in so much soot that came off the candles-

   16. ABAlfie Brown1:00:01

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:01

       ... that I actually needed to get it paid to be repainted. (laughs)

   18. ABAlfie Brown1:00:07

       (laughs) Oh, good God. That's really funny. So how- and how long did it last for you this obsession?

   19. CWChris Williamson1:00:14

       Probably about four months, I think. Um, probably between four and six months, 'cause I'd tried- I'd kind of done it once before and not really committed.

   20. ABAlfie Brown1:00:24

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:00:24

       Thought that that might be my thing, and now the nail's in the coffin that it's not- it's not my thing.

   22. ABAlfie Brown1:00:32

       Christ. Uh, w- what- how old are you?

   23. CWChris Williamson1:00:36

       33.

   24. ABAlfie Brown1:00:38

       And how many things do you think you've taken on post the age of 25 do you think that have been... I mean, this is one.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:00:45

       Yeah. Yeah, so most of them have been commercial projects because I'm a-... ruthless, sacrilegious-

   26. ABAlfie Brown1:00:52

       Capitalist.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:00:53

       ... capitalist, yeah, precisely.

   28. ABAlfie Brown1:00:54

       Yeah. Good.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

       Yeah. Who, who is trying to fill the void with money. Uh, but-

   30. ABAlfie Brown1:01:00

       Fair.
8. 1:08:00 – 1:23:28

   Protest Voting in the Information Era

   1. ABAlfie Brown1:08:00

      yeah, uh, there's a really good YouTube video by a guy that I love called Nerdwriter. Have you heard of him?

   2. CWChris Williamson1:08:04

      No.

   3. ABAlfie Brown1:08:05

      Uh, brilliant video essays and does a brilliant one on how Donald Trump answers a question, and there's exactly the same, there's like, the simplicity of the language, the fact that he structures every single one of his sentences in an answer to have the key word, "tremendous bad people", "tremendous bad pe-" We get, we get the key word of what he wants to get across, "It's gonna be horrible, it's gonna be horrible, tremendous bad people, bad people." And it's every single line you could take out of context and know exactly what he's saying. They did, they, he examines the, the reading level of all, uh, uh, presidential nominees over the past few years, and like, so Mick Huckabee and Bernie Sanders are way up there at A-level reading level, um, and then you've got like Clinton down a bit, and other Clinton down a bit, and you've got, uh, George Bush down a bit, and then you've got way down at like kindergarten sort of just above like early years reading level, is that's how Donald Trump speaks. And that's why everybody gets it, and that's why everybody understands, and that's why everybody i- i- immediately, "Well I know what that guy thinks." There's no, there's no two ways about it. And it's not about how many people hate him. Like the interesting thing when Hillary Clinton was campaigning, I thought, they had this slogan, "Love Trumps Hate." Well it, it did, because the people who voted for Donald Trump loved Donald Trump, and the people who didn't vote for Donald Trump didn't love Hillary Clinton, they hated Donald Trump. And love did trump hate in that election, but just not in the way that Hillary Clinton thought it would or wanted it to.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:09:45

      So that was the smartest tagline ever.

   5. ABAlfie Brown1:09:49

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:09:50

      But she just didn't realize.

   7. ABAlfie Brown1:09:52

      I mean, well, yeah. Well I mean it was, yeah, smartest tagline for him. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson1:09:54

      Yes.

   9. ABAlfie Brown1:09:56

      It was, oh God, that was such a sad night. But, uh, yeah, it's a really interesting video essay that I'd recommend to you-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:10:01

       That's sick.

   11. ABAlfie Brown1:10:02

       ... and, uh, all his, Nerdwriter, he's got a bunch of good stuff.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:10:05

       There was a article that I saw that looked at how much Democrats and Republicans love their own party versus hate the other party.

   13. ABAlfie Brown1:10:14

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:10:14

       And for almost all of time, it was that you, you voted for the party that you wanted to be in as opposed to not voting for the party that you don't want to be in. Uh, and 2012, that changed. So now, it- it's- it's literally like a- a- a protest vote. It is, everyone is protest voting-

   15. ABAlfie Brown1:10:30

       Everyone is protest voting. Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:10:32

       ... against the side that they dislike. And this is, this is a- a whole other fucking rabbit hole, but the fact that out-group hatred is stronger than in-group bonding is a really fucking interesting mechanism that you see at the moment. The fact that most people bind together over mutual distaste of another as opposed to mutual love of someone or something within that circle. I think that's, that's so interesting.

   17. ABAlfie Brown1:11:02

       Yeah. It's, uh, it's, I think, I- I don't know where it's come from. I think it's b- I think it's very, uh, we haven't learned how to deal with new media yet, uh, new digital media, social media, et cetera. And um, there's really interesting, um, if you look at the invention of the pa- the printing press was exactly when you had, like in late 19th century, so 1870-something, what, I can't remember the exact dates, but right directly after the invention of the printing press you had the, this huge rise in populism, uh, and the- the- the- the corn laws being brought in, and everybody saying, "Well, now the papers exist, everybody can just be taught what to think." And it's the death of democracy. Uh, and it's something that we're, to an extent, experiencing again. We learnt sort of arguably how to deal with papers or how to ingest them or, uh, perhaps, uh, perhaps the way that papers went, you know, social media took on. It- it carried, the extremities carried on kind of further in each direction. Uh, obviously papers got wind of the fact that sensationalist news stories sold copies, selling copies earns money, earns, earning money means that we're all, you know, we can all buy new cameras and whatnot. And that's, you know, that's- that's- that's- that's where we all are. We're all, you know, I- I made my, the title of my episode something I thought was juicy because that made it more clickable.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:12:30

       Clickbait, yes.

   19. ABAlfie Brown1:12:31

       We're all thinking like this. Um, so, given that we haven't learned how to use this media yet, I think with a little bit of time, maybe that stops. Or we learn that there's some sort of cognitive revolution whereby we switch away, uh, from anger and that the algorithm stops serving anger and utilizing it as the, uh, touch paper for, eh- eh, all virality and explosive news th- there is and we, we get to a new place. There has to be something to push us past this, which I kind of remain optimistic there, there will be, but I don't know what it is. And on the left and on the right, I think people have confused-Uh, and this is without-- you know, this is not a shameless plug, but the reason why my show is called Sensitive Man is that I think sensitivity is something that we have completely sort of expelled from all discourse. And people confuse or people, or perhaps, uh, you know, on the, on the left, the, the, the Corbyn left would say that they are sensitive. They are... But I, I think that true sensitivity is the only thing that can defeat righteousness, and righteousness is what you have at either end. And sensitivity is completely anathema to, to, to, to, to that. Um, so a, a call for sensitivity. Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:13:58

       I'm reading a book, a proof of Johann Hari's new book. Johann Hari wrote Lo- Lost Connections and Chasing the Scream. So it's in a book.

   21. ABAlfie Brown1:14:07

       Is he the guy that did that, um... He said the controversial stuff about mental health?

   22. CWChris Williamson1:14:13

       Mm, yeah. Well, his book's about mental health. I don't know how controversial it ended up being. He said that it was a combination of-

   23. ABAlfie Brown1:14:20

       　 He didn't.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:14:20

       ... of, of environmental and biological, but he put less weight on the biological, "It's just imbalances of chemicals in the brain, bro." Um, so it may... Well, I mean, he, he wrote a book on, on mental health. I don't know how much-

   25. ABAlfie Brown1:14:35

       Yeah. No, I think the art... The Guardian did a, uh... The Guardian and everybody I follow on Twitter did a take-down of it. Um, so again-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:14:41

       Sounds like what they would do, yeah.

   27. ABAlfie Brown1:14:42

       U- again, everything that's controversial is controversial depending on, uh, our own, uh, algorithmically interpreted version of reality.

   28. CWChris Williamson1:14:49

       Yeah.

   29. ABAlfie Brown1:14:50

       Um, anyway, he got a shellacking from lots of people that I saw.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:14:53

       Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

Episode duration: 1:29:12