Modern WisdomPersonal Growth, Dating & Psychedelics | TUCKER MAX | Modern Wisdom Podcast 136
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 23,493 words- 0:00 – 1:30
Intro
- TMTucker Max
Especially men. That's what a midlife crisis, I think is for dudes, is they realize that they've made a bunch of bad choices or choices they don't like, and they're stuck and they don't know how to get out. But they won't ask themselves the hard question, they won't look at the things that they haven't done, the responsibility they haven't taken in their life. They won't make any hard decisions, and so they're stuck. Dude, it sucks, man, when you get there. But the only way to avoid that is to constantly look at yourself and do your work. And your- by work I mean emotional work. "Am I being the best person I can? Am I being honest with myself?" And if you're constantly, honestly asking yourself these questions, you can't help but grow. You're gonna grow, that's just how it works, and then you change, and then, you know, you become, hopefully, a better and better and better version of, of yourself. Not always the same, though. I'm never gonna be as, quote, "cool" as I was when I was 29, right? Uh, in certain ways, but, like, I'm way better in almost every other way.
- CWChris Williamson
(wave crashes) I'm joined by Tucker Max. Tucker, welcome to the show.
- TMTucker Max
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
- CWChris Williamson
Pleasure to have you on, man. Um, I was saying earlier, I posted out that I was gonna have you on the show and my, my DMs have just been on fire all day. Uh, originally we were just gonna talk about Scribe Media and we're gonna go into the nuances of book writing and stuff like that. We're gonna get into that. But, um, I think there's, there's some other bits that I'd love to get into first. So to kind of set the scene for people who might not fully know your backstory, how'd you get to where you are now? Head of Scribe Media, best-selling author, but sort of how'd you get there?
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- 1:30 – 4:50
Flat Tire
- TMTucker Max
So, I mean, th- it's a long backstory. So I'll hit the highlights and then you can kind of dive into whatever you want.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- TMTucker Max
Uh, let me, uh, so, um, let's see. I went to undergrad, University of Chicago, uh, law school at Duke, um, and then, uh, got fired from being a lawyer in three weeks. My dad fired me from the family business in six months.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
Then didn't really know what to do. Uh, found my way into write... I was writing emails to my friends that they thought were hilarious. And through a long series of sort of stuff, I ended up, uh, putting my stuff up on a website, my stories, they blew up, got a ton of attention, um, you know, MTV, a girl sued me. It was all the sort of normal s- uh, controversy. And then, um, so I ended up writing a book, became I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell, which, uh, the New York Times said invented a liter- literary genre called fratire. And it's sold, you know, a million and a half copies now or more, uh, worldwide. Translated into whatever it is, 30 or 40 languages, something. Um, and then, uh, wrote two more books. Um, well first there was a movie made about that, uh, book about my life. Uh, and then there... Two more books, Assholes Finish First and Hilarity Ensues. Sorry, and Sloppy Seconds. Three more books. Those have, all told, have sold, I don't know, three and a half, four million-ish. And, um, uh, then (clears throat) did a few other things. Um, the big thing was start Scribe. Like I said, a bunch of people asking me how do I write and publish a book. And so, uh, I started a company that helps people do that. And it's five years later and, you know, we did David Goggins' book, which is huge, and Tiffany Haddish and a bunch of others. And so, uh, here we are.
- CWChris Williamson
Man, what a story. I love how you said, "All of the normal sort of controversy."
- TMTucker Max
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like all of us are g- (laughs) all of us are getting sued by ex-girlfriends and stuff on a, on a consistent basis. That's funny.
- TMTucker Max
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, yeah. So one of the things that I really wanted to delve into with you, 'cause I think that you've got quite a unique insight on this because you've been so transparent in that journey, from going and being, you know, a classic party boy, right? Um, the UK's got big drinking culture, big party culture.
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
My job, I fill nightclubs.
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
I've run nightclubs for 13 years. That's what I do. Bread and butter, right? So I've seen like a million drunk people, ish. Just over a million drunk people.
- TMTucker Max
Cool.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I know, I know what it looks like, and so does everyone that's listening.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, what I'm really interested in finding out is what happens when we go from, as men, young men, we go from being that guy who is living quite viscerally, party lifestyle. There's a point where it's s- for some people gradual, for some people sudden. But there's a point where you stop being that, and you start to be a simulacrum of the guy that your dad is or was, or, you know, a, a dad to be. You get me?
- TMTucker Max
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, there's not many dads that I know, even, you know, I've got some friends that are, that are pretty loose. I don't know many of the dads that are out on the lash in the same way that a 22-year-old's out on the latch.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I, I r- I really wanted to get into that.
- TMTucker Max
Well, if they, if they are, they're real shitty fathers. That's just... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
They're bad dads. Yeah, you're right.
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
So, uh, what, what was that process like for you? 'Cause obviously you were so transparent, such a big partier, all of these sort of very well publicized experiences, and now you're a dad. Two, two wonderful kids.
- TMTucker Max
Three.
- CWChris Williamson
Three?
- 4:50 – 8:10
How did I become a dad
- CWChris Williamson
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Man, congratulations.
- TMTucker Max
How are you not up to the minute on my life? No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Ah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Tucker.
- TMTucker Max
Um, uh, you, it's so funny, dude. You're definitely English because there is no American podcaster that would ever use the word simulacrum. Like, I know what that means-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
... but there is no American. Like, thank God I have, like, advanced degrees, because most Americans, they go, "What the fuck is she talking about? What is a simu-"
- CWChris Williamson
Sorry.
- TMTucker Max
Um, all right, s- so, uh, um... Yeah, you know what's funny too, man? When my books came out, like, they blew up in America, and all this controversy, whatever. And all the English people were like, "What are the Americans up in arms about? Everyone does this. This dude just got drunk and threw up and acted like an idiot." Like, no one... The British were like-
- CWChris Williamson
They did.
- TMTucker Max
... some of them thought it was funny, some didn't, but they were like, "Wh- why are you guys..." America's a whole different culture with that stuff, man. Like, my books in England wouldn't... Like, they did, they did okay, but they didn't, they, no one cared, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Um, because there was no element of, uh, naughtiness and seediness there, you know? Um, but, uh, anyway, so how did I become a dad? So it's funny, at, at least in America, I'm not sure in England. In America the, the stereotype is the bad boy gets converted by his love for the right woman, right? That's always how it worked. And, um-Eh, but that's never how it... That's always the stereotype. It's never how it actually works. I- in America, if you're like a, you know, like the bad boy, the younger guy, you kinda... there's two paths. There's two archetypes you can take. You can keep going, right? And like, play that up. Like, I could've played... Eh, listen, I could've. I'm 44 now. I could be the 44-year-old guy traveling the world, still banging young girls and whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Like, I know those guys. They usually go on and own bars or, or promote night clubs, a lot of them. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Or they, you know, they get into that lifestyle, um, or s- things that are similar, entertainment business, whatever. Um, or, uh, you, um, you basically like reform, right? Th- those are kind of the archetypes. But neither of those are what ha-... Like, I didn't want to be the old creepy dude, uh, uh, like that was unappealing to me. But I wasn't gonna reform, like in terms of like, "Oh, what I did was bad. Now I have to be good." Th- that was bullshit to me. But what I did do, which is like not... It's an archetype, but it's not the way it plays out in America, um, uh, is I did my work, right? So the question is always not why do young people go out and drink and have fun, but why do some young people especially, and I was definitely one of them, go to ridiculous extremes with it? Right? At least what I did in America was extreme. Might not be for England, but for America it was. And so i- it's always a question of like, why, right? And then I had to really... I made all this money, I did all this stuff. I basically got to the point where like everything in my life was perfect, eh, uh, you know, as good as it could be. I was in amazing shape, I had money, I was rich, I was famous, I had girls. And I st- I was way, way better off than when I was poor and anonymous, right? And broke and starving and whatever. But like, I still wasn't that happy, right? I wasn't that content. And so then I had to ask myself. At some point you realize, well, the problem's me, right? And of course you do.
- CWChris Williamson
What sort, what sort of age was this? Do you remember?
- TMTucker Max
Huh?
- CWChris Williamson
What sort of age was this?
- 8:10 – 15:05
Turning inwards
- CWChris Williamson
- TMTucker Max
34, 35. It was right after the movie, right? And so e- so you have to make that decision. Do you realize the problem is you or not? Right? And then most people don't, man. Most people think, no, everything... The problem's always outside of me. So they spend the rest of their lives chasing money or success or women or drugs or whatever it is they use to run from their emotions. And I don't mean that judgmentally. It's just... 'cause God knows I was doing it for a long time. Um, but like, or they say they turn inwards and say, um, "All right, I'm gonna fix my shit." Right? And, uh, I started that about 30... Let's call it 35, really, in earnest. And, um, man, (laughs) that's been a hard road, dude.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
Like, because it is... It's funny. It's like, I forget the Buddha. There's a quote from Buddha. It's like, um, you know, it- it's something about like, it's not hard to conquer an army. Uh, uh, i- it's hard to conquer yourself, right? And I thought... When I was like 28, I'm like, "The Buddha doesn't know what he's talking about. That was some dude with a bowl and a robe. Shut up, man." Now I'm like, "God, that dude was wise."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
There's a reason people have listened to him for 5,000 years, right? Um, 'cause de-... Turning inwards and dealing with your own shit was really hard. And so for me it started with just a high level. I started with, um, th- talk therapy, like psychoanalysis, and that worked for like four years, uh, for me really well. Uh, it gave me a good map of my mind and my emotions. But I didn't really feel a lot in it. Like, it didn't... Um, it kinda... And I understood what was going on. Sort of like having a map of London and walking around the streets of London. Totally different things, right? And so that's what... Uh, it gave me a map. And then, um, I, I started working with a shaman for a while, like an energy healer. Not because I thought it would be a good idea. This woman just like... Like, I thought that was nonsense, and this woman did some shit with me once and like, my wife was like, "Why are you so, uh, different today?" I'm like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "No, no, no, you're way better." And I hadn't told her at all. And so I was like, "Crap. Not gonna work with this..."
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck, yeah. There's proof. Proof's in the pudding here, yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Right, right. Exactly. Right. Exactly. I was... It was actually very frustrating for me.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
Um, and so I worked with her for about a year. And that was fine. It worked well. Then it stopped working. And then, um, I did a few other things here and there, and nothing really worked that well. I mean, I, I tried everything else, yoga, whatever, all these other things people try. Didn't work for me. And then the last 18 months, man, I've made more progress than I probably made the other nine years combined. And that's, uh, with plant medicines. So like therapeutic Indie-... You know, uh, uh, psychotherapy, MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, you know, and uh, psilocybin assisted and that kind of stuff has just... Man, it's like, it's like a startup where you see like slow growth and all of a sudden they hit the rocket ship. I've hit the rocket ship, I think. I still haven't really gotten into the serious stuff. It's just gone way better. The last e- 18 months for me have been amazing, dude. The growth and all. And so how did I get to be where... a dad? Well, the... To answer that question, first I had to d- I had to decide I wanted... I knew I wanted a family. And then I was like trying to date girls and they're like, eh, they all sucked. And then my analyst was like... This is when I was still seeing an analyst. She's like, "Well, are you... Who's the type of woman you wanna meet and, and marry?" And so I like listed this woman and she's like, like... It was like this amazing avatar of a woman. And she's like, "Okay, would that girl want to date you?" And I'm like, "Of course she would. I'm rich and famous." And she's like-
- CWChris Williamson
You're like, "I'm awesome."
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
And she's like, "Hold on, Tucker. You may be rich and famous, but you're also sleeping with like two girls a week and blah, blah, blah. Why is that girl gonna date you? Why is she gonna be one of many? Why..." And I was like, "Ugh." And so I had to go through that whole process. I had to get ready to meet my wife. Um, that was, that was the big thing. And, and so like that... Dude, it wasn't... Most people just fall into this, man. And for me it was a conscious evolution with a lot of fits and starts and mistakes along the way. Does that answer your question?
- CWChris Williamson
Abso-
- TMTucker Max
I kind of rambled a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely, man. I got a million doorways open, so I think, uh, we got lots to delve into. Um, firstly, yeah, I, I, I totally, I totally get what you mean. Um, I'm currently re-reading Mark Manson's Models.
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And he talks, he talks a lot about that, right? About that compatibility. Like where are you finding the women that you...... that you want to date, where are you going? Like, if you want someone that's intellectual, like, going out to the club five nights a week might not be-
- TMTucker Max
Doesn't make sense, right.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, for sure. And you're actually flipping that on its head. You're like, "Am I the sort of person that the sort of girl I want to date would want to date?" Um, certainly one of the things-
- TMTucker Max
Which most guys never even think to ask that question.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, they just presume that.
- TMTucker Max
They never even think of it.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that most men, because of the way that dating and romance is popularized, I think that most men presume that their job is to kind of be there. It's like, if I'm here, and I'm not fat, and my, my shirt's not got no stuff on it, and, like, the girl turns up, like, kind of... You know? Th- there's no real-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't know. It, it just, I don't think that there's a, there's a narrative that men have to follow that's, that's too good for that. But I mentioned before we started, I've kind of been immersed in, uh, Tucker Max over the last weekend. I've been traveling a lot, consuming a lot of the stuff that you've put out recently. One of the things that struck me is that you're very, very prepared to do introspective work and uncover quite ugly truths about yourself, which is something that over the last four years I've taken an almost cathartic pleasure in doing for myself. I've really-
- TMTucker Max
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... strangely enjoyed it, that challenge. Um, and-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah, I don't enjoy it. It's fucking terrible. If you enjoy it, good for you.
- 15:05 – 20:50
Life has phases
- TMTucker Max
hard, man. Uh, so the metaphor, the question... It's funny, man. Like, I get this all the time. Um, uh, I'm 44 with three kids and a very mature business. Like, we, you know, we did eight figures in revenue last year. I'm not even the CEO. Like, I hired a baller to run my company, right? And so, like, I live in a huge house, fucking pool and a wine cellar, an insured wine cellar. Like, all that sort of shit. And I still get the dudes who, uh, like, message me on Instagram or whatever, and is like, "What the fuck, man? Like, when are we gonna get more stories?" And I'm like... My response is always some version of the same, "You played with toys, you played with dolls when you were 10. Do you still play with them now that you're 25?" And they're always like, "Ooh." (laughs) Like, it doesn't even occur to them that if they think about it, obviously, but it doesn't occur to them that, like, life has phases, and life has seasons. And that certain things make a lot of sense in a certain season, make no sense in any other season, right? And especially with someone who's, like, celebrity or noteworthy, right? Because what happens, people don't realize, like, you have, like, a... Okay, a- you see this with athletes all the time. People have a very, an emotionally intense relationship with an athlete in one stage of their life. Like, they're, let's say, I don't know, whatever, 26 to, like, 33. They're, like, huge. You know, Lionel Messi or Michael Jordan or LeBron James, like, these... And so, like, it doesn't matter how, like... Like, for me that was Michael Jordan when I was a young kid, right? Michael Jordan was the guy. And now Michael's, like, you know, in his 60s or whatever, he's, like, old and disgusting and fat and he's been-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
He's been an asshole his whole life, but now you really know, and... But still, like, people, like... If he was a god to you when you were 15, then, like, he's always a god and you, like, approach him that way, right? You look at him like... And, and, and it's very frustrating because you can't... People don't look at you like a person, you're like an object, right? And, and so that's why a lot of those people get stuck, is because they... First off, that they were at their peak then. They're never gonna get bigger, right? In terms of whatever, success at basketball, let's just say with Jordan.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
He's never gonna be bigger at basketball than he was in the late '90s. It's just not possible, right? And, um, and then he has people around him who always look at him that way, and so he's stuck there, right? And that almost happened to me. Of course, I was nowhere near as big as Jordan. Uh, but, like... And I, you could, you could make that happen. We- and I'm not talking about just celebrities, in anything. You could just be, you know, a good... I don't know. Big in your little social circle, whatever. And the sa- it's the same dynamic. Y- Y- you know how I always phrase it? You can tell a man's peak year in his life because his wardrobe freezes there. Like my grandfather, I could tell what his peak year was. After he died and we cleared out his closet, because he didn't buy anything else from anything past that period. He just froze his wardrobe right there, and he didn't change.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that's sim- symbolic, he's trying to sort of hold onto that?
- TMTucker Max
Right. Holding onto that. They hold onto the car, the clothes, whatever. Most, right? And that was just something that, like, I, I was never, like...I tried for a little while to hold on, but I'm like, "What am I doing, man?" Like, this isn't life. This doesn't make sense. And it's not about aging gracefully. It's about growing and evolving and becoming the best version of who you are now. And that's why, like, I don't understand these people who are like... Man, dude, I love being older, man. Like, everything is better except, like, physical stuff basically. Like, I have more money, I have more wisdom, I have, uh, better friends. I'm, I'm more emotionally together in every single... Everything's better in my life except, like, you know, I can't deadlift as much anymore, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah. My knees ache a bit more.
- TMTucker Max
And I'm like a shitty athlete now. My knees hurt a little.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- TMTucker Max
And like that kind of stuff, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah.
- TMTucker Max
You know, like, uh, I used to be able to have sex, whatever, five nights or five, uh, times a night. Now, like, man, three is, like-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
... not easy for me, right? And like, uh, so, yeah, things change. But like if you, you... And that's why, especially men, that's what a midlife crisis I think is for dudes, is they realize that they've, they're, they've made a bunch of bad choices or choices they don't like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TMTucker Max
... and they're stuck and they don't know how to get out. But they won't do what you talked about doing before. They won't look at... They won't ask themselves the hard questions. They won't look at the things that they haven't done, the responsibility they haven't taken in their life. They won't make any hard decisions, and so they're stuck, right? And like that's just, uh, yeah, dude, it sucks, man, when you get there. But the only way to avoid that is to constantly, uh, not reinvent. You don't even have to reinvent, man. You have to constantly look at yourself and, and do your work. And your... By work I mean emotional work.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Am I being the best person I can? Am I being honest with myself?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Am I taking responsibility for myself? Am I doing these things? And if you're constantly honestly asking yourself these questions, you can't help but grow. You're gonna grow. That's just how it works. And then you change, and then, you know, you become whatever. Uh, hopefully a better and better and better version of, of yourself. Not always the same though. It's not like...
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
There's thing... I'm never gonna be as, quote, "cool" as I was when I was 29, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Uh, in certain ways. But like I'm way better in almost every other way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I think, you know,
- 20:50 – 23:15
The goal is to keep playing
- CWChris Williamson
uh, what's interesting about that is people will find, both men and women, they will find some form of "success" in quotation marks, some form of effectiveness within one particular domain.
- TMTucker Max
That's true.
- CWChris Williamson
And then they just continue to double down.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Double down, double down, double down.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I don't know who the quote's from. You might be able to tell me who this is but, um, "The goal is not to win the game. The goal is to keep on playing."
- TMTucker Max
Yeah, I think that's from a book called Finite and Infinite Games. I forget the author. Um, Simon Sinek did-
- CWChris Williamson
Simon Sinek.
- TMTucker Max
... sort of take on that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Oh, yeah.
- TMTucker Max
No, no, no. It's not Simon Sinek. No, no, no. Simon Sinek, uh, look, Simon's a good friend of mine.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Simon's book about infinite games, he got... There's a book called f- Infinite and, Infinite Games, which is, like, where he got that, a lot of that idea.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- TMTucker Max
Um, but it's not Sinek. Uh, uh, he gets credit for too much other shit. Don't give him something else ƒ-
- CWChris Williamson
That's the problem, isn't it? It's like-
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... when people are clever like that. James Altuch is the same. Um, so-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, people have a little bit of success, continue to double down on that, um, uh, s- stick to this particular thing. But it's not about that. It's about moving onto what is next. And you're right as well, you've touched on the fact that your social circle reinforces that, right? Even your, your fan base. They're not your social circle but they're like, "You're the this guy. You're the party guy. You're the drunk guy. You're the girls-"
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"... sleeping with girls guy. You're the-"
- TMTucker Max
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"... self-development guy. You're the writer guy." And as you perhaps want to evolve, especially if you have a, a, a being that-
- TMTucker Max
They don't want you to.
- CWChris Williamson
No, because-
- TMTucker Max
Because their relationship with you is based on, it's objectification. You are something, ex- you nailed it, you are something to them. You are not a person to them at all. Like, dude-
- CWChris Williamson
100.
- TMTucker Max
... I can talk about this and fame forever.
- 23:15 – 24:25
CrossFit
- TMTucker Max
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I tell you what, uh, you, I know that you touch on CrossFit as well, right? You've done a little bit of CrossFit any time so you understand this.
- TMTucker Max
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because CrossFit's such a fast-changing sport, you can tell who, um, how long they've, someone's been doing CrossFit by who their favorite athlete is. So, "Oh, you're a Rich Froning guy."
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Or, "You're a Jason Khalipa or you're a Matt Fraser guy." Like, do you know what I mean?
- TMTucker Max
Yeah, yeah, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's such a fast-moving sport. It's kind of the same.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so, man, I got a million doors, doorways open but one of the things I really wanna get, get into is, um, you're quite a cerebral person from what I can tell. You like to be able to rationalize. You can rationalize. You're sufficiently clever to be able to do that. A lot of the time when we think that we're doing the work, you've spoken about this, right? Do the work. Uncover your hidden biases. What are the motives that are guiding your life? What are the things that you need to work on? What are the things that you need to do? But if you are sufficiently cerebral or you can tell yourself good enough stories, a lot of the time you can come up with something which is a proxy for the truth. This is, this isn't actually doing the work but it's close enough for me to feel like I'm satisfied in doing the work. It's like-
- TMTucker Max
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
... McDonald's versus food, right? It's like it fills you up but it's kind of not nutritious.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How, how do we-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- 24:25 – 32:00
Spiritual Bypass
- TMTucker Max
- CWChris Williamson
Talk, talk about that.
- TMTucker Max
Well, dude, th- I mean, that's, that's the trap, right? I, I, I forget the quote. Uh, it was, uh, somebody like, it was somebody like the Buddha or someone, one of his many, many disciples who said that, um-The cleverest trick of the ego is to- to bend spirituality to its, uh, uh, wishes, right? And so like, you see this in people who... I'll give you a really good example. So for years, there was a specific person I'm thinking about, but a couple people, but really one who's famous. I'm not gonna say his name 'cause he's still a friend of mine, and I've said this to his face, so... But I just don't wanna, like, you know, uh, uh, put my private conversations with him in public. But like, he would not shut the fuck up about ayahuasca. (laughs) Like, just every conversation I had with this dude, "Ayahuasca this," and "Ayahuasca that," and "Ayahuasca, you gotta do ayahuasca, you gotta..." And like, I don't mind someone like, "Oh yeah, you know like..." I- I don't think it's wise to talk about psychedelics that way. You shouldn't recommend them to people. Talk about your experience and let them come to it on their own. Mm-hmm. But like, we knew each other well enough where it's, uh, it was fine. But like, his life was fucked up, man. (laughs) I kept like, telling him, "Dude, your life is a mess. And if you're telling me to do this, it makes me not want to do it." And so like, I didn't do it for a long time because like, like I associated it with him and his mess, right? Mm-hmm. And so, so like, it, the... To bring it back to your question, um, it's called s-... And what I realized, like once I got deeper into that realm and I got to the real practi-... Like he was new to it. I got to the real practitioners who've been doing it 10 or 20 years and who were serious- Plant medicine do you mean? ... and like, yeah, yeah plant medicines, and like ayahuasca shamans and other shamans. They have a name for what he- what he was doing. They call it spiritual bypass, right? Ah. And basically, it's the people who use these, uh, medicines to get the experience, uh, very sp-... To feel spiritual and to feel like they had something happen, but not do any of the actual underlying, the, what you were talking about before, the really hard emotional work. Facing your shadow, right? Realizing things you've done, taking accountability for your actions, all owning your shit, right? And so like, that's when I was like, "Oh." Once that got explained to me I'm like, "Okay, the... my problem's not with him. It's with how he's acting and I- I could actually do this right. It's not... I get it." So, um, dude that's one of the hardest things man. I can't tell you how... 'Cause, and the worst part is, the smarter you are, the, uh, like your defenses are as smart as you, right? (laughs) And so like, oh dude, if
- CWChris Williamson
It's a never ending war between you and your smarter brain, yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah. Well your ego is designed to keep you alive, right? To keep you safe. And the main tool it has to keep you alive is stasis. It wants to keep you the same because if you're alive now, right, doing what you're doing, changing is a risk of death. And I, you know, and so like it doesn't want you to change, not because it's against you. It's just like, imagine like, you know, like the- the super conservative hyper risk averse mom. That's your ego, right? And so like, what you have to do, what I've had to do, is, um, learn to get in a dy-... I have to see it first, understand, "Oh shit, my brain is tricking me. My ego, the part, uh, my part, uh, ego part of my brain is tricking me to stop me from growing and changing," right? And then, and then I get, get in a dialogue and it's like, "Okay, hold on." Like, y- you have to realize there's different parts of your brain that have different agendas, and it's actually great. Like, they all work in balance. The movie, um, Inside Out from Pixar is an amazing example of this. Like, have you seen that movie?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- TMTucker Max
I, it, it's... Like you think Pixar is a kids movie. It's an amazing movie 'cause it shows you how like sadness, happy, uh, joy, anger, like these are all, uh, uh, discussed. Your core emotions all have very important purposes and work together, right? And then when they get out of balance that'll get messed up. But like it, it, it, it... It's really, really, really, really hard to do that man, to really understand there is a part of me trying to keep me the same and it's a good valuable part. I just need to not listen to it all the time.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Because if I wanna grow, I've gotta change, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
And then I've gotta take that risk. Um, dude that took me, yeah I don't know how long it took me. I- I did a session that was, you know, with obviously a very experienced guy, um, with a specific type of medicine that, uh, kind of created an ego death, like where your ego really does die in you. And dude it was crazy man. As I was going into this... This is like a serious, serious one, uh, psychedelic. And um, I- I heard myself. I thought I was thinking, "They tricked you. This is your new reality. You're gonna get stuck here. You're gonna die." Right? I thought I was thinking that.
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly what you want just as you're entering a trip.
- TMTucker Max
Right. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
And a big one too. Um, and so like, of course I'm like get- freaked out, whatever, but at that point I'm pretty experienced on what, people I knew and- and trusted and very safe environment so like I was able to kind of surrender and let go. It wasn't until a- a few days later I was like, "Hold on a minute. That was my fucking ego dying." That was like, oh my God... And that's when I realized like the- the- the trick the ego plays on you is that it convinces, it convinces you that it is you.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
That you and your ego are the same thing, and they are not. It's a part of you. It's an important part of you. It can just be destructive if you listen too much. That's what the Buddhists mean when they say, "You are the observer, not the speaker." Right? Is they're saying the real, the true self is the self that sees and observes and experiences. And the ego and all these other parts of you, um, are different parts of your brain, that like are part of you but not you.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
And it... I, dude I'm still trying to figure this out now. Like it's like, I'm not like some, you know-... Zen monk that's been doing this for 40 years, right? Like, I'm 18 months in. But it all made sense. And as soon as I, as soon as I understood that, then, then I started, like, really kind of essentially talking to myself in a diff- like a crazy person sort of-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
... but in a different way. And realizing, "Oh, okay. I'm afraid of that," or, "I'm, I'm, I'm telling myself I don't want to do that." And it's like, "Hold on. Why am I doing that?" Because, uh, you know, like, uh, what's a good example? (sighs) My mom, right? I don't have a good relationship with my mom. I just kind of like... That all came to a head. Like, i- and so long, long story short, I hadn't talked to her in 12 years, and so I realized I needed to reach out to her, and I, I didn't want to. And so I had this whole sort of, like, battle with myself, right? And I realized w- the ego was like, "No, don't reach out to her. No. You know, she was wrong to..." All these things, these are good arguments, but I was like, "Uh-uh. Hold on. You're trying to keep me the same. I get it. Thank you for protecting me. I'm gonna reach out." And then, like, we didn't meet up, but because of the dynamics around it, I was able to just let that go. I had all this shit, resentment, anger, and li- it's re- I let, I was able to let all that go because I didn't listen to my ego there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Does it, does it make sense, what I'm saying?
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely, man. Absolutely. Well,
- 32:00 – 36:00
Plant Medicine
- CWChris Williamson
it sounds like recently you, you made a graph. For the people that were listening, you, you talked about a graph. You can imagine one that's going up exponentially. It's getting more and more as time goes on, and the increases are getting greater as well, when you talked about your progress and you were highlighting the fact that the plant medicines really kind of supercharged that over the last 18 months.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... one thing that I'm fascinated by is this period we're talking about, um, for men and- I can't speak for women, but it might happen for, for girls as well, um, but for men, you know, maybe between mid to late 20s to hopefully mid-30s, where something happens. They start to realize, like, "I need to kind of let go of that last, that past version of myself."
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that you can make... Y- you can have these insights and you can have that conversation with the ego without doing some of the work first? You know, for instance, can I just dive into plant medicine? Is it just going to enlighten me? Or-
- TMTucker Max
No.
- CWChris Williamson
... could you have-
- TMTucker Max
No.
- CWChris Williamson
... could you be where you are now without having done nine years of psychotherapy and meditation-
- TMTucker Max
It, it's hard, like, dude-
- CWChris Williamson
... yoga, blah, blah?
- TMTucker Max
It's hard to say, man. It really is. It depends on the person, dude.
- CWChris Williamson
So you're not certain, though?
- TMTucker Max
Like, I know-
- CWChris Williamson
You could have done it?
- TMTucker Max
No, uh... All right, so I know a girl who is totally in touch with her emotions and, like, doesn't take any of this stuff, and she's fine. And people like Michael Singer, uh, you know, who wrote The Untethered Soul, like, you know, huge book. That dude just sat in a fucking swamp and meditated two hours a day, right? And got there. And so no, no, you do not need plant medicines to get there. I do not think you do. But are they really helpful for a lot of people? Yes. Were they, at this point for me and all the trauma that I'd been through, were they basically a necessity for me? Yeah, I think. Um, I- maybe a necessity, maybe not. I don't know. They worked though.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Um, and, and they were amazing for me. And again, we're talking about two different things. Using psychedelics and plant medicines to heal, and using them to, let's call it, um, expand your mind and, uh, reach higher levels of consciousness, they're very related, but they're not the exact same thing. I have been mainly focused on using psychedelics and plant medicines to heal trauma and to, to connect with myself better. Now, by default, I've had some consciousness raising and seen some crazy stuff and whatever, um, but like, that's not been my focus. And a lot of people who start with psychedelics, I think, start there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Like, "Let's do 5-MEO DMT and, and talk to aliens-
- CWChris Williamson
See what happens.
- TMTucker Max
... and shit."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Right? And it's like, "Look, you can start there, but that's like learning to swim in the middle of the Pacific."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Like, I guess you could do it, but probably not what you'd recommend, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Like, that's why I started with MDMA, 'cause it's so safe, it's so gentle, it's so effective on, on trauma. And like, and it's like, it's a r- it's like learning to swim in the kiddie pool, you know?
- 36:00 – 39:05
Strip Away Persona
- CWChris Williamson
what's interesting when we start to strip away persona, right? We're, we're looking at who we are. "Hang on, I'm now attached to something that I was but I no longer am. I need to update my software. I'm now about to be a dad. I'm becoming a dad. I want to get a girlfriend who can become my wife." Um, all of these things. The frustrating thing that I've found over the last four years is, it's like a pass a parcel. Like you strip away some of the, the wrapping paper, and then underneath the wrapping paper, there's some more wrapping paper, and you just keep on going. And you're like, "Ah, fuck, I thought..." Like, you just keep on tearing it off, and you're like, "No, this, this gotta be the last one. This has to be the... Like, below this, it's gotta be the last one." And then you just keep on going, keep on going, keep on going. It's just all wrapping paper. I wonder if that's the game.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah, realizing there's nothing there. Yeah. That's... I mean, that's what not just the Buddhists, but almost any tradition will tell you-... like, at the end of the day, that... Look, th- the, the, it's funny, the last 18 months I've done so much reading into a lot of people I hadn't really paid a- uh, close attention to. Before, people like Rumi, Jesus. Uh, I knew a lot of Buddhism, but, like, really kind of diving in to different, uh, d- different angles. Um, and you know what's funny is they all say the same thing. Like, they really say the exact same thing. Uh, Buddha said, "Everything you n- uh, uh, uh, everything you need, everything you require, you have in you." Jesus said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within." Rumi said, uh, "All the stars in the galaxy, um, all the stars in the sky, uh, are nothing compared to, um, the, the, the journey inward," or something like that. They all said the exact, all the great avatars said the exact same thing, that everything you need you have inside. It's just a matter of going inward, doing that work, you know? That's it. That's all it is, man.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Like it, it's... I feel like in, if any- if anyone's listening to this and think, "This dude's an idiot or a crazy person," I get it, because two years ago, I would have said the same thing listening to this. (laughs) I would've, man. But it's like, oh, fuck, once you get it, it makes total sense. And th- and so now it's like... It's funny too, man, because, like, we were pretty successful two years ago, but n- my, like, the success and stuff I'm doing is just going up, up, up, up. And it's like, it's gone up in almost direct proportion to how much I've let go of tr- not working, right? Like, I'm here, I'm doing a podcast, I do, I... Not working, but trying, holding onto, "I've gotta have this," or, "I've gotta have that," or, "I'm trying to orchestrate that," or, "This is the thing I need to succeed," and understanding that I have it. You know, it's all right here, and that whether I succeed or fail is essentially a s- both a story I tell myself and a feeling I have, and that I actually get to control that, and I get to decide that. It sounds so trite from the outside, man, but once you-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
... get it, it just clicks.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you marry
- 39:05 – 48:50
The Grind
- CWChris Williamson
that very holistic view with failures and success in life with the fact that you need to get up and do the grind?
- TMTucker Max
Y- I don't think you have to grind. If you're grinding, you're doing it wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- TMTucker Max
Because by, by definition, a grind is awful. It-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- TMTucker Max
... uh, no, seriously. Like, uh, m- you know what my days are, man? Uh, I'll be honest. My Mondays sometimes are a little bit of a grind, because I got a lot of calls, a lot of things like this. And some of them I like, like this conversation's pretty cool. Not all of them. So, like, there's always... I, I ha- I'm not fully here. But my life now is 80-ish, 80%, things that I love doing, things that energize me. Like, if you want a rubric, um, manage your energy, right? The things that energize you, do those. The things that don't energize you, uh, either don't do, or if you have to do them, uh, pay someone to do them who is energized by them. Like, the idea that I would have to, like, work, put numbers in a spreadsheet, that put a bullet in my brain. But l- the two accountants at my company love it. They just l- it's like their thing, right? So we hired people that, you know, that do that, and like, we trade, and it's great, you know? They don't like talking to people. I'm real good at that. (laughs) So...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
So, so we, but we both spend our days doing things that energize us. Right? And I, I think most people don't do that. They load their brain with shoulds. "I should do this..." Shoulds and haves. "Have to do this, should do that." It's a fucking story in your head, man. I've n- yet to meet a person who's, like, really truly has a should or have story that can't be broken down. And I know there's a million people probably listening who say, "Oh, well, mine's different."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
You're not any fucking different, man. I had all those things, and I'm a better arguer than you are...
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
... and I was wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, we get back to the brain being able to convince us of pretty much anything, right?
- TMTucker Max
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I recently had, uh, Kamal Ravikant on, and he was, he's got this level-
- TMTucker Max
Good friend of mine.
- CWChris Williamson
He's a good guy, man. Um, had, he's got the three steps of how he sees life. "Life happens to me, life happens for me, life happens through me." Right? And it's that-
- TMTucker Max
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... it ties into a victim mentality. It ties into leaning into discomfort, which is one of my favorite sayings, where it talks about lean into discomfort as if you invited it through the door. You know, it's the, this, this is something that's here, it's here for growth. It's, and, um, it all, it's all tied together. I don't know how. I don't know how it all fits together, but it is.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm on the cusp of real- I, I feel like I've kind of got it, but not well enough to explain to anybody, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
But the, here's the thing with this, man, is that I'll tell you, the things that I, I have, like I got it...
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- TMTucker Max
... you can't really truly explain. You can, you can use words, but the gap between understanding and words is big. And so, like, um, it's sort of like, imagine... Okay, so this is one you can get. No one would think that watching... you can learn about sex from watching porn. You get some information from it, right, but the gap between having sex and watching porn-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
... is huge.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
And you really don't even know how big the gap is till you start having sex, you're like, "Oh, wow."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Like every, and I mean everything, the experience of how good it is, how different it is, everything-
- 48:50 – 50:05
MDMA
- CWChris Williamson
It seems like, to me, MDMA is... It's been a number of clinical trials now for it being used for PTSD therapy, being used for a lot of different-
- TMTucker Max
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... a lot of different things. Um, for me, my experience, I've never taken MDMA in my life without being drunk in a club.... that's it.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, uh, do you know what I mean? It's not a therapeutic drug to me. It doesn't even speak of psychedelic, uh, uh, in nature.
- TMTucker Max
It, it's not a psychedelic.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
It's not a psychedelic. It's not even in that class. It's a totally different molecular compound.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- TMTucker Max
Um, it's not at all.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
But, dude, when you take it in its self- I know a lot of people who used to do, like, a gram of MDMA a weekend or crazy stuff like that, right? (laughs) Like, a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
And then they, they, uh, you know, they, they went through that phase and now they're, they're out, and they do it therapeutically, and it's like, they're like, "Oh my God, I had no idea." Like it is-
- CWChris Williamson
Different drug.
- TMTucker Max
... a totally, totally different experience.
- CWChris Williamson
That's fascinating. That is really, really fascinating. I really hope that it gets rolled out more. I think it's got a lot of, um-
- TMTucker Max
It'll be legal in, in pr- well, in America, it's actually, there's a few places where you can do it, compassionate care licenses. Those clinics are being opened this year. It'll be l- widely legal in 2021 or 2022 probably. It's already in stage three clinical trials, like-
- CWChris Williamson
For, for therapeutic use. Guided...
- TMTucker Max
Therapeutic use.
- CWChris Williamson
Duh, duh, duh, duh.
- TMTucker Max
Right, with a prescription and all of that sort of stuff, yeah. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you. Okay.
- 50:05 – 52:23
What Women Want
- CWChris Williamson
Um, you mentioned, so one of the, um, flags in the ground of your life of the transition from old, uh, Tooka to new Tooka was, um, when you said that you were kind of giving up frater, which was this particular type of, uh, writing that you'd done. Um, and since then, am I right in thinking the only thing that you've brought out is this scribe method? Is that right?
- TMTucker Max
Uh, no. I, I wrote a book with Jeff Miller called, um, What Women Want-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Yes.
- TMTucker Max
... which is, like, the instructional guide for guys about-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
... how to deal with women-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
... how to understand women, how to deal with women, how to talk to them, how to become attractive to them, all that sort of stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
It's the best book on that subject by far in the marketplace. We did a pretty poor job positioning it and, and marketing it. That book is, like, the, the best example ever that product doesn't beat marketing all the time.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah, that is interesting.
- TMTucker Max
Right? Like, there's all these idiots that have all this dumb shit stuff out there that they market the hell out of, and, like, um, we didn't want to approach it that way. And, like... So we ended up, like, we wrote the best book. It's by far the best info. Like, the dudes who read it, and a- a lot do, that we get, I get an email every week from a guy who's like, "Oh my God, I saved all this money and all these stupid dating coaches-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Game changer.
- TMTucker Max
"... and it was all... it has changed my life," and whatever. The problem with the book, man, is that we don't play the, "It's not your fault" game, we don't blame women for problem... we don't play up to the most toxic emotions in dudes. And so, like, it, it's ver- it's mu- it's a lot harder to sell personal responsibility and accountability.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- TMTucker Max
And it's a lot harder to sell hardw- like, real hard work.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
And it's hard to sell facing your problems and things like that, which is what we, we do in there. But what's funny is, like, I told dudes, I'm like, "Listen, you want to have the life I have? Go, go do this book." That's it, man. You want to be married to a, a, an incredible, amazing woman who's hot, have a bunch of kids with her, have a, a, a, all, bunch of money, uh, you know, whatever. Whatever, howev- I'm not... The details of my life don't matter, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
'Cause, like, some people don't give a shit about wine.
- CWChris Williamson
Whatever success looks like by the metrics you've made.
- TMTucker Max
If you wanna have what success looks like to you-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
... it's here. You just have to do the work. It's not complicated, it's just difficult.
- 52:23 – 53:50
Piers Morgan
- TMTucker Max
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't it fascinating that you wro- you wrote a book that was positioned too virtuously for it to capitalize on its own-
- TMTucker Max
You can show them all.
- CWChris Williamson
... on its own success? Yeah, that's really interesting. So the guys, there's, uh, a video going around Twitter today from, you know the guys from 21 Convention? Do you know what that is?
- TMTucker Max
Yes, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the dude behind that, um, I forget his name, which kinda says it all. Uh, the dude behind the 21 Convention thing was on a British talk show this morning with Piers Morgan. You'll know who Piers Morgan is.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Piers kind of doesn't really pull his punches.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And him and, him and this female co-host just tear this guy's arse all out. Like, absolutely annihilate him about all of the... He's wearing a "Make Women Great Again" hat, and he's just everything that's wrong with, like, the whole sort of manosphere-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah. It's almost too easy of a target, man. It's like, of course you can make fun of this idiot.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He's like the, he's like the Colby Covington, uh, UFC fighter of, like-
- TMTucker Max
Yeah. (laughs) Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I'm like, "Fuck, man." Like this isn't WWE. You're supposed to be putting yourself across as a legitimate man development, male development place.
- TMTucker Max
I mean, if you're gonna play the heel, the bad guy, at least do a good job. Like Conor McGregor does a good job of that, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Um, uh, like, th- there's a, there's a way to do that when you can do a good job. They're just, it's, they're too dumb or too emotionally undeveloped to actually do it well.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- TMTucker Max
You know?
- CWChris Williamson
I'm re-
- TMTucker Max
It's like...
- 53:50 – 57:23
Rollo Tomassi
- TMTucker Max
- CWChris Williamson
I'm gonna get, uh, I'm gonna get Rollo Tomassi on. I really, really want to have a discussion with Rollo. I want to find out, I've got-
- TMTucker Max
Who's... I don't know who that is. Who's he?
- CWChris Williamson
The guy that wrote The Rational Male. So he's widely, uh, sort of earmarked as the person who began the red pill movement for men. Um, it seems like he's genesis for that, or at least that's what it's-
- TMTucker Max
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that's what it's called online. And, um, I got a few, I got a few questions for that which, which today's helped to inform me about.
- TMTucker Max
See, in my experience man, in my experience, those dudes are extr- all of them, are extraordinarily broken, and they just blame their shit on everyone else.
- CWChris Williamson
That's how it-
- TMTucker Max
And, like, even the ones, no, the, there's ones that make really good arguments about a lot of things, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
And so it's not like because they're broken, all their arguments are wrong. That's bullshit.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- TMTucker Max
Like, you can, like, you can... uh, all, so many good points about a lot of stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
A- and, and it's not like the other side, it's not like the fucking social justice warriors are any better. They're just as awful. They're just as broken. They're just as, uh, a victim mindset or worse. But, like, those dudes, like, it's like they, they get their little, like any of them, they get their little echo chamber and it's like, "Ah, it's not your fault. It's not your fault either. Okay, we'll be broken and lonely together." And it's like, "All right, dude. Then go have your shitty life, it's fine with me."
- CWChris Williamson
Look at the way that, wh- what we spoke about twice, two different situations that have come up in this conversation. The first one is, um-... how you find that nuance and that understanding in yourself, right? Doing the work on yourself, your truthfulness and, and stuff like that. And that not actually being quite as polarizing and some people not really even responding to that as much. You know, you were the party guy, you were the, this guy, you were the, that guy. And then the second thing being the book, the book which delivered a, a more nuanced, more, uh, uh, a- a deeper, more truthful, more transparent, more difficult to swallow pill.
- TMTucker Max
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, bo- both of those things kind of jar, they jar with people sometimes, but the easy to, easy to sort of swallow, single line, single tweet length synopsis is more effective. Um, man, I wish it wasn't the case. Look, uh, (laughs) Tokta, we've gotta- we're gonna talk about the Scribe Method and, and everything else. But, um, you guys launched David Goggins' book. If there's people that are listening who want to learn how to write a book, 500 pages, is that the Scribe Method's PDF?
- TMTucker Max
Yeah. Just, honestly... So we have like... Look, if you want some, you want to pay someone to do it all for you, we're the company. Uh, but most you, uh, people I'm sure can't. Just go to scribebookschool.com. Everything that we do with our clients who pay us five and six figures to, to work with them, we explain all of it and lay it all out in detail. So if you don't ha- if you don't have money, but you have time, just... It's all there for free. Go do it yourself. No problem.
- CWChris Williamson
And you said this beautiful quote, which I've heard from you, which says, "Everybody has wisdom inside of them. They just need to get it down onto a page." Something along those lines.
- TMTucker Max
They have to get it out. Doesn't ha- you can use video too. There's nothing wrong... Video is great, man. We're about to launch a big YouTube channel, like... But you need... We just do books. Books are a big way, a really specific way.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- TMTucker Max
Um, they're not the only way.
- CWChris Williamson
And you've got a specialist. You- you're a specialist in that, right? That's your-
- TMTucker Max
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... your background?
- TMTucker Max
Yep. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Awesome, man. Tokta, uh, if people want to hustle you online, where should they go?
- TMTucker Max
Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook. I'm like, I'm not hard to find.
- CWChris Williamson
Glorious. Thanks, man.
Episode duration: 57:23
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