Psyop Expert: Secret Techniques For Psychological Power - Chase Hughes

1. 0:00 – 0:41

   What Does Chase Actually Do?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Who are you? How do you describe what you do for work?

   2. CHChase Hughes0:02

      It's so hard. But, uh, if, if I'm talking to somebody that's boring, I'll just tell them I teach psychology stuff. But if I want to get into it, I'll, I'll say, you know, I, I teach, uh, all... everything from brainwashing to interrogation, uh, applied on yourself and other people. And most of what I do is train sales teams on nowadays. So it-- sales has gotten really addicted to this stuff. Uh, but I've studied neuroscience for a long time, and I've spent my life trying to figure out how the brain works and how to shift human behavior, not just like to get someone to confess to something in an interrogation, but how do we modify our own behavior and, and what are the mechanics that make that possible?

2. 0:41 – 7:16

   Why Humans Are So Easy Manipulate

   1. CWChris Williamson0:41

      Do you think we're living in the most psychologically manipulated era in human history?

   2. CHChase Hughes0:45

      Yes. Hands down. But I mean, you go to ancient Rome, some, some shit would happen, and they would say, "Hey, do the, do the lion fighting thing with the guy. Let's distract everybody." So I, I don't think it's new.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:58

      Hmm.

   4. CHChase Hughes0:58

      I think it's a lot more pervasive, though.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00

      Is that because of it being facilitated through technology, or is that because of a requirement for control? What's the motivation for that?

   6. CHChase Hughes1:08

      I think the... uh, just the digital media. If you think about what is the number one fear of human beings, like every psychology class talks about it. It's the public speaking, but it's never public speaking. It's I, I don't want to be judged. I don't want to be ostracized, 'cause our w- in our brain that's two hundred thousand years old, uh, getting kicked out of a tribe means I'm dead. I'm not gonna have sex. I won't have babies, and I'm gonna die. It's, it's a mortal fear, uh, of dying. But if you go back to the nineteen eighties, um, if I did something stupid in high school or even as an adult, I have to worry about thirty or forty people judging me and maybe, you know, really kind of kicking me out of a social group. And now with social media, you've got to worry about five or ten million. So the consequences of doing something wrong are unbelievably exponentially increased, uh, which has made us a whole different society, which we could get into. And th- this is the origin of this pandemic of loneliness that we're in right now, um, where everybody will agree that we're in a pandemic levels of loneliness and nobody... you don't hear anyone saying, "I'm lonely," which is a, a deeper root of this exact problem.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:29

      What's happening then?

   8. CHChase Hughes2:30

      You ever study French philosopher, this guy named Sartre?

   9. CWChris Williamson2:34

      I've read a little bit of his stuff, but [chuckles] like just single quotes.

   10. CHChase Hughes2:38

       He had this play, it was called Sartre's Hell, where three people are locked in a room basically like this, and it's a play. But the room's not totally locked. Every couple hours, the door opens, and you can leave if you want to, but nobody leaves. And they're all desperate to be seen a certain way by someone else. This one guy, he, um, I'm paraphrasing, but th- he wants to be seen as a good person. So he asks, asks this woman in there, "Please tell me I'm a good person. Please." And she says, "Yeah, you're a good person." But he knows she doesn't mean it, so he stays. The door opens, nobody leaves, and they stay because they're waiting for this confirmation from other people of who they are. And in this world today, with how performative and artificial everybody has become, so I've got to show my best self. I've got to hide shame. I've got to conceal all this guilt and the stuff that people carry around. [clears throat] The reason that somebody can feel lonely i, in a room full of people, and I'm not just talking about on Facebook, I'm saying like in a real room full of people, is because no matter how many times your friends come over and pat you on the back and say, "Oh, Chris, we-- you did a great job. We love you. You're, you're a great guy." Your spouse might say, "Oh, you-- we love you, and you're, you're a great person." In the back of your mind, you know you're faking it, and you know that none of them really like the real you. And you get... at the end of the day, and I'm not saying this is you, but at, at the end of the day, you're lonely in a, in a room of a hundred and fifty, two hundred people because you know that none of them know you, and you haven't ever really been seen by anybody.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:21

       Hmm.

   12. CHChase Hughes4:22

       So increased fear of judgment because of social media equals increased performance equals I'm wearing a costume almost all the time, and nobody has ever seen me. Nobody really knows me. So even if they claim to like me, in the back of my brain, there's this little reminder mechanism that says, "They don't like the real me," and nobody ever has. Nobody's ever seen me.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:47

       Hmm.

   14. CHChase Hughes4:49

       So I-- this is my opinion, but I think that's the root of our... of the pandemic that we're in right now of loneliness. Like we're more connected than ever and more performative than ever at the same time. So w- we, we can't really connect. And our brains are wired for a hundred and twenty, hundred and thirty person tribe. And we, we start getting over that, and we have massive issues.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:13

       It's interesting that a lot of the time the person has been subsumed by the persona, the role that people are playing.

   16. CHChase Hughes5:22

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:22

       But the persona's incapable of receiving love. It can only receive praise at best, and it feels like a pat on the back. The same as people don't love Chris Hemsworth, they love Thor. They don't love Russell Crowe, they love Gladiator. So w- how can you be surprised if you don't genuinely existentially feel the connection with your pursuits and your successes and the people around you? You know that they're just applauding the role that you play as opposed to seeing who you are truly.

   18. CHChase Hughes5:58

       Yeah. Have you seen that movie Pig with Nicolas Cage?

   19. CWChris Williamson6:03

       No.

   20. CHChase Hughes6:03

       You gotta watch that. Even if you watch this one scene. It's like five minutes long. Nicolas Cage plays this guy who's justKind of had enough and he stopped performing forever. Like he doesn't care. Um, he's not mean or anything, just doesn't perform. And he goes to this restaurant, he's a famous chef, and he's exiled and stuff. And this chef is just pretending to be a certain type of person so that his restaurant is more successful. And Nicolas Cage just basically says, "None of this is real. You're not real, which means they're not real, and none of this... Everything's fake. Everything here is completely fake. And you're gonna wake up every day, and there's gonna be less of you and less of you until there's nothing left that you'll ever recognize again." And it, it's this massive awakening scene for this guy, and it's beautiful. And I think when people watch it, they assume, "Oh, I'm in, I'm in the Nick Cage role here."

   21. CWChris Williamson6:56

       Mm-hmm. Mm.

   22. CHChase Hughes6:57

       Uh, and maybe sometimes in our life we are, but I think in other times we need to be kind of shaken awake, and somebody grabs our little camera and changes our camera angle to look at a situation differently. I wanna be woken up like that in every possible way. Um, and, and I think that's, that's what we all need.

3. 7:16 – 12:17

   The Simple Formula Behind Brainwashing

   1. CWChris Williamson7:17

      Is brainwashing real? What's true and false about that?

   2. CHChase Hughes7:23

      Brainwashing is absolutely real. There's a four-step process, and it spells out the word fear. Um, it's focus, emotion, agitation, and repetition. So w- if we start with focus, this is me routinely breaking what you are predicting to be what's gonna happen next over and over and over in a massive amount. One or two times, this is what triggers a mammal brain, our mammal brain and a dog. You're walking down a pathway in the woods and a stick breaks behind a tree, and you're like, "What was that?" You're not worried about anything else. So the fastest way to generate human focus or mammal focus is novelty. Some genuine thing happens that you didn't expect. So that's the first. That's what we generate massive amount of focus. And then it's emotion. And with emotion there's so- there's an old hypnosis technique, uh, that came, that became popular in the '50s. This guy named Dr. Milton Erickson popularized this thing called fractionation. So if you... And you'll be familiar with like Channel 4 and Derren Brown. I, I know a lot of Americans aren't, but he, he's kind of a... There's no American equivalent o- of Derren Brown.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:43

      Oz may be the closest. Perlman?

   4. CHChase Hughes8:45

      Yeah. Oz Perlman, yeah. So they figured out like i- if I pull somebody down in hypnosis and then take them gently out of it, when I put them right back down in, so this is in quick succession, I take you out of hypnosis, and then I put you back into hypnosis again, you'll go deeper every time. And there's no such thing as depth in hypnosis. What they essentially mean is you'll have more GABA. You know what GABA is. It's a neurotransmitter in your system, like the safety chemical, and you'll also have, uh, a higher degree of theta wave brain state. Uh, and if I can just keep going up and then back down and up and then back down, you're deeper and deeper and deeper in a hole every single time. So if you look at your feed, anybody out there, you open whatever feed you want on any, whatever app you're thinking of right now, and you, you kind of scroll through your feed, you're gonna see stuff that kind of brings you back up, but only for a second or two, and then it's fear and scarcity. And it follows the thing of getting your focus, showing you an authority figure, telling you something threatening, making you fearful of judgment of a tribe, and then making you emotional, and then bringing you back up, and then back down in that cycle. So it's focus, authority, tribe, and emotion. You'll see it in your feed, guaranteed. And you don't even need to s- you don't even need to scroll for like five minutes. You'll see it right away.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:02

      Mm.

   6. CHChase Hughes10:03

      And then it'll be like one little thing to kind of bring you up, like, um, one of those videos where the people are like, "Oh, we just found this baby deer on our porch one day, and we decided to bottle feed him and raise him." And then, you know, it's like a, a fast cut to where like he's a giant deer like sleeping in the kid's bed or something, and he's like a family member now. It's like a heartwarming video that, that feels g- and I love watching those. But it feels great, and then bam, they pull you back down again into the cycle. But what you'll notice after you see that fear video at the end of the focus, authority, tribe, and emotion, right at the end of that, they're either gonna, A, bring you up or, B, show you an ad. I've never heard anybody talk about this before, but you can absolutely see it. And I'm not immune. Like I've bought stupid shit on Instagram, uh, like ev- anybody else. Knowing about this [laughs] stuff like doesn't get you vaccinated against manipulation. I bought the dumbest shit in the world on Instagram. It just means I'm a, I'm a g- well-informed victim of this stuff. But that's the, the core of brainwashing is focus, emotion, that's that fractionation part of up and down, then agitation. So this is doing something to where the mammalian brain recognizes this is a different environment than I was expecting, not a thing that's happening. So now the landscape is changing. The oil prices are going up. This big thing is happening. There's a shortage of some critical resource. And then repetition. So if it's in a detainee environment, it... the massive focus is them being woken up in the middle of the night over and over by strobe lights and loud sounds, cold water, that kind of stuff. Then the emotion, the entire time you're sitting there in your prison cell or whatever, uh, I've got every photo your family's ever posted on the internet playing on a slideshow using a projector on the wall. So focus, emotion, then agitation. Something is extremely disrupting to your ability to predict the future. That's agitation and then repetition. The cycle begins again. And you can kind of do whatever you want. That, that process creates a blank slate in people, and that's like the, that's like the baseline formula of, of how brainwashing works

4. 12:17 – 17:03

   How Social Media Reprograms Your Mind

   1. CWChris Williamson12:18

      And that is exactly what social media's using?

   2. CHChase Hughes12:21

      Yes. But I, I think a lot of people think, oh, there's some dark conference table, dudes smoking cigars, like, "How do w- how can we, how can we really mess these people up?" I don't think it's that at all. I think it's just an algorithm that's rewarding what's creating the most revenue. So, like, showing you an ad for shoes is way easier after you watch the little baby deer video, or after I make you think that the water supply is g- being destabilized. So I think it's just an algorithm. I think there's many other things where there's people involved in manipulating the public. I don't think that social media is doing that on purpose, that, that one piece of it. The piece that I do absolutely think this being done on purpose is if you're on the left and you open your feed, you're gonna be shown the dumbest piece of shit idiots on the other side that they could possibly find. And if you're on the right, you're gonna be seeing the exact same thing about people on the left. And, uh, with the number one goal being you... In, in the deepest part of your mind, you cannot help but make a permanent judgment about reality of those people are effing crazy. All of them are crazy. I can't trust them, I can't listen to them. And this is a, a campaign that I think is called engineered division, and if I can get people fighting horizontally, they're not gonna look up. If I can get somebody destabilized and kind of at, at ends, at odds with each other, you're not... Your ability to think critically is reduced by, like, 50%. This is massive, and they've shown this in many studies. And just getting someone destabilized in that way, where they're kind of fighting each other, th- they're distrustful of their neighbors, they're 10 times more easy to manipulate. So if you think of, like, how our brain works, if you're falling off a cliff, your arms and legs are gonna flail all over the place. They're moving everywhere. The first solid object that touches your body, you're gonna, like, instinctively grab onto it. Even if it's a thorn bush or barbed wire, you'll, you'll grab it. So when a, when a population is destabilized and something clear and logical is presented, something like a prepackaged enemy, I'll just leave that there, is given to you, it... You're 10 times more likely to accept it because it's clear, it's prepackaged, and it's easy to follow. And humans do not ever follow, like, the best leader in, in a situation. They follow the most followable, and there's a big difference between those things. Um, so destabilization, that would be step number one, and, and two Chinese intelligence officers wrote a paper on this. Uh, it's called... I think it's called Unrestricted Warfare. It's been translated into English, and they use a hypothetical country that really looks like the United States, uh, in this paper. But they talk about this asymmetric warfare and how we have to get them fighting each other. We have to make them distrustful of each other, and we destabilize the government from the inside, 'cause we can't w- we can't win a terrestrial war with these people. Uh, and they, they... All of this is just written out there. You could buy this probably on Amazon for, like, three or four bucks, the, this trans- translated book. It's probably online too. But it's very, it's very open, that it's not just, like... It's not like the normal bad guys that you hear about. These are foreign state actors that are doing some of this stuff. We just had a former mayor of a city, in California, I believe, that, that was proven to be a operative for China, a mayor. And, uh, so I, I think people are thinking, like, there's some ancient rich family, uh, you know, in the depths of some cave somewhere plotting the destruction of the world. I think it's just countries that hate each other and greedy, selfish companies.

   3. CWChris Williamson16:27

      Mm.

   4. CHChase Hughes16:28

      Um, and maybe I'm oversimplifying it, but if you're watching the news and you don't hear nuance, you are being manipulated. 'Cause you're... They're giving you a message. There's, "Here's the enemy. Here's how to feel about what you're watching on the news, and here's exactly what's happening." And they'll tell you that this, this, and this, all these three things happened. They'll never tell you how they're connected. They'll act like everything's a separate story. So, uh, I think there's an agenda. I, I won't pretend. I, I'd be a fool to say, like, "I, I can understand or know the end game of any of this stuff."

   5. CWChris Williamson17:01

      Mm.

   6. CHChase Hughes17:01

      That was a long-ass answer to your question.

5. 17:03 – 21:50

   What Makes a Leader Followable?

   1. CWChris Williamson17:03

      [laughs] What makes a leader followable?

   2. CHChase Hughes17:06

      Yeah. Th- there are authority first, per- the perception of authority, and we trust in order. There are five things that make us trust another human being. Uh, first is confidence. So the person is... doesn't have any reservations. They're talking clearly. They're speaking in a way that I can clearly understand. They're not using academic language, uh, which is why most presidents... The president who has, speaks at a lower grade level is, I think, like, 35% more likely to win a debate. So that makes them followable, right? Confidence and literacy, like, it's clear, clear to understand them. They're very confident. Next is discipline, and I don't mean that this, the person is, like, making videos of themselves waking up and like, "Hey, here's my morning routine." But I mean, like, we can see discipline on people. We can see somebody that has self-control and discipline, and that starts coming through. We get... We can pick up on that. And then leadership, and for good, for good or bad, there's cult leaders that have all these problem, or all these qualities too. Uh, gratitude and enjoyment. The gratitude just being like, "I'm thankful for what's happening right now in the moment. My... I'm emotionally stable. I'm easy to follow."But we're not really going into all that. Our brain's shortcut is that we follow someone who is probably loudest, clearest, and has no hesitation in their behavior.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:36

      Hmm.

   4. CHChase Hughes18:36

      So our brains are trained to look for micro-hesitations and automatically give us a little gut feeling of, "Oh, I, I shouldn't trust that person." So micro-hesitations are the fastest way to destroy authority.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:49

      In both of those scenarios that you just described, the world being chaotic and difficult and confusing, and something being offered up as order. In one example, it's an enemy that's prepackaged. There's order. Why is this going bad? It could be a million reasons, or it could be that group over there. And the same thing for leaders. I don't understand what's going to happen. We've got all of these different directions that we could go down. Don't worry, all of that chaos doesn't need to be worried about because I have the order, and I can wrangle this system to bring it to bear.

   6. CHChase Hughes19:27

      Yeah. For better or worse. Uh, and that's what happens. And if you just... The way that I describe this very simply is the process is to close down a machine or close, close everything down, build pressure inside of it, and then decide where the pressure is gonna release. So it's a, it's a controlled release of pressure that's been being built up on purpose. And sometimes that is like the pressure is some relief. Like we have this national thing that's happening, and the pressure release is chosen at a certain point. And there's a lot of, uh, people that say, like, track the money. If you track pressure, like financial pressure, economic pressure, uh, shipping and trade pressure, oil, uh, shipping around the world, tracking the pressure is always more revealing from an intelligence perspective than tracking the money. This pressure's gonna show you, like it has to have a release valve somewhere, and nine times out of ten, there's, there is a person or group of people that are choosing how and where the release valve is gonna be.

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6. 21:50 – 29:45

   Are Algorithms Engineering Your Predictability?

   1. CWChris Williamson21:51

      What's the outcome you think that those people want?

   2. CHChase Hughes21:55

      Like, like the they?

   3. CWChris Williamson21:57

      Yeah, the they. If there is... Part of this is social media algorithms have reverse engineered the way that humans' brains work because it's a very simple algorithm.

   4. CHChase Hughes22:06

      Super simple.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:07

      And the fact that it's simple is why it's so effective. Because if you started to put constraints on it, you would be trying to predict the best way to get the outcome that you want. The best way to get the outcome that you want is to just let it optimize for that outcome and reverse engineer however it got there.

   6. CHChase Hughes22:20

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson22:20

      That's why we can complain all we want about the algorithms, but even the engineers, you open up the black box of YouTube, or you open up the black box of TikTok, th-they don't know what's happening inside of there. There is no knowing about what's happening inside of there. This is just recursive algorithms training itself.

   8. CHChase Hughes22:35

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson22:36

      Interesting, the, the coolest thing I learned about this from Stuart Russell, guy that wrote the textbook on AI. So up until probably twenty twenty when the transformer technology and LLMs came along, it m-may still be the case. I know he's still talking about this a lot. I think his textbook had been translated into a hundred languages. So it was, it was used around the world. It was the canonical textbook for AI, Stuart Russell. He wrote this book called Human Compatible. He's talking about computers, humans, some psychology, a lot of AI and, and, and computer science. And he said that there's two ways that algorithms can become better at predicting what it is that you're going to click on. The first one is serving you content which is more akin to something that you want to press, right? Like if you-- all that you're trying to optimize is CTR and watch time, basically, which is kind of every, every algorithm now. It can just better predict what it is that you want and give you that. But the other side is I can nudge your preferences to make them easier to predict. So it's a bidirectional relationship. And it's not like anybody told the black box algorithm to go and do this, but over time, it knows, hey, if I walk people down this sequence of steps, and this is where I think the truth about pipelines and radicalization comes along, but it's not necessarily radicalization to an extreme of one particular worldview. It's an extreme of predictability.

   10. CHChase Hughes24:06

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:06

       And this bidirectional relationship between becoming better at working out what you want to click and becoming better at making you more predictable to work out your preferences-

   12. CHChase Hughes24:20

       Yeah

   13. CWChris Williamson24:20

       ... that is really... I mean, it's... When he told me about it, it blew my mind. It's one of the most mind-blowing things that I've ever heard.

   14. CHChase Hughes24:27

       Dude, I've, I've gotta read this because-

   15. CWChris Williamson24:29

       It's fucking spectacular, eh?

   16. CHChase Hughes24:31

       When, when I teach, uh, like persuasion and influence, I'm actually here in, in town today teaching. I was, I've been on stage all morning, uh, doing a, like a seminar for training traffic.

   17. CWChris Williamson24:41

       You need Neutonic, that's what you need. Yeah.

   18. CHChase Hughes24:44

       So when I teach, I, what I'm telling people is your first goal is being able to engineer and build the perfect client. So I'm, I make the person the perfect recipient for what I need to give them.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:58

       Hmm.

   20. CHChase Hughes24:59

       So if I know the outcome is I need you to click on baby deer videos, I'm gonna engineer the shit out of that to where I'm not gonna like just start showing them to you. I'm gonna make you the perfect recipient before I start shifting your behavior. So the, the way that I typically describe this is if you learn persuasion, interrogation, sales, whatever it is, they're gonna teach you how to engineer outcomes because people are obsessed with the outcome. But I argue that if you're good, what you engineer are conditions. And if I can engineer the right conditions, I can get you to do anything.

   21. CWChris Williamson25:41

       Hmm.

   22. CHChase Hughes25:42

       Anything. And just as an example, just of how powerful conditions and context are, I think it was in the 1940s, this, uh, like stage hypnotist guy is doing like a comedy club thing. You know, where like, "Oh, the guy next to you farted and it smells really bad. You're on a rollercoaster now." And it's like all of this stuff. There's like 10 or 15 people up on stage. And then part of the show is, "All right, all of you are cops. You got called to a party. Everybody in the audience is a party right now, and the more the audience laughs, the more you're gonna get upset." So they get up and they're not allowed to leave the stage, so they're all kind of yelling, pretending like these kids are at like a house party or something. Then he's like, "Oh, one of them's got a gun. He's gonna take you down." And one of these guys on the stage is an off-duty police officer, uh, carrying a weapon, starts firing in- into the crowd, a real gun. Um, and I think one person was in... I don't, I don't know if he died, but it shot a real gun into a crowd. The cop was a good person, well-meaning, just wanted to go out with his wife, uh, you know, for an evening. But context can dictate your behavior no matter what. Like we're gonna probably both you and I, not together, but we will get naked by the end of the day, both of us.

   23. CWChris Williamson27:04

       Right.

   24. CHChase Hughes27:04

       We're gonna get into a shower.

   25. CWChris Williamson27:04

       The day is young.

   26. CHChase Hughes27:05

       [laughs] The day is young. We're gonna get into a shower, get into a bath, whatever. Um, but we're not like, as we're standing in front of the shower, we're not like, "Oh, I don't know if I should." We're just, we just get naked, right? So context, [laughs] context tells us what's allowed.

   27. CWChris Williamson27:24

       Hmm.

   28. CHChase Hughes27:25

       So if I can modify context, I can get you to do anything.

   29. CWChris Williamson27:30

       Hmm.

   30. CHChase Hughes27:30

       All I have to do is it's a PCP formula. I change your perception about the situation that's going on. Then I say, "Yeah, since you're viewing this differently, it's actually this situation where people are trying to do X." Or I reframe this as someone is a, a complete threat. But I've changed your perception of what's possible to do, then the cons- uh, the context is s- some person is a threat. And they're at, they are a mort- uh, now I say the word mortal. They're a mortal threat. So I've changed the category. And if I shift category and context, that changes what you think you're allowed to do and what you're not allowed to do. Does that make sense? So like if I, if I'm in a perfect world, the only question, like if you're really good at this stuff, like a lot of these systems are, what is the context where the behavior I want you to do is automatic? What is the context? So if I can make you believe that you're in a shooting range and you're actually standing in a bar, you're gonna d- your behavior's gonna be very different. So what you're, what you're really seeing over time is a, is a drift of perception and then context. So with this PCP, perception, context, and permission. Permission is that final thing that says, "Oh, in this context, I'm, I'm completely allowed to do this, and it makes perfect sense." So a lot of what we're seeing is context engineering. So if, if you look at the Milgram experiment, which I think a lot of people are familiar with, essentially some- they prove that you, uh, people will shock strangers what they think is to death in about 47 minutes at a 70% success rate or failure rate, whatever you wanna call that. Um, but they didn't have a script. There wasn't some magic sales script where they, where they brought them in and they had the right words to say and the, and the magic hypnosis guy that comes in there. It's just a dude in a lab coat. And all they did in the Milgram experiment is engineer the conditions that make it okay. The context made, made that shocking behavior, uh, permissible.

7. 29:45 – 41:05

   How Interrogators Get People to Confess

   1. CWChris Williamson29:45

      You mentioned there about people or technologies that are unbelievably good at manipulating behavior. When it comes to seeing operators, people, who's the most effective behavioral manipulator that you've ever seen operate in front of you?

   2. CHChase Hughes30:04

      I can't say names. Uh, the guy's, uh, I think he's still active, but, um, he could get pretty much anybody to do anything, but he shifted the context. S- So what I... The o- the task that I gave him is go into this social, very social environment. There's like a band playing and it's like a bar, like a pub.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:28

      This is a real thing?

   4. CHChase Hughes30:29

      Yeah. And I said, "I want you to have someoneLet's say laid out on the floor thinking that they're just completely unconscious in, like, seven minutes. And I d- I couldn't hear anything that was being said, and he did it. He did it within, like, three, four minutes. And I asked him, I said, "What did you do?" And he's like, "Oh, I just told her I was a hypnotherapist, and I asked what she wanted to... how she wanted to change her life, and she was really, really excited that she wanted more discipline, and I just told her I would give her more discipline, and it's really easy." So he shifted the context to her being helped instead of controlled.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:11

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   6. CHChase Hughes31:11

      Um, and, and made it okay for her to be laying on the floor and made everything okay just because he shifted the context. Um, a- it's the same in interrogation rooms to where the context shifts and there's, like, a five-step protocol that people use to make someone confess to a crime, and if you really examine what the protocol is, it's just a massive shift in context and perception.

   7. CWChris Williamson31:35

      What's the protocol?

   8. CHChase Hughes31:36

      You ready?

   9. CWChris Williamson31:37

      Yes.

   10. CHChase Hughes31:37

       All right. So it's, uh, socialize, minimize, rationalize, and project. [clears throat]

   11. CWChris Williamson31:45

       Is that not four?

   12. CHChase Hughes31:47

       Yeah. It's four steps, and then there's an alternative question at the end.

   13. CWChris Williamson31:50

       Okay.

   14. CHChase Hughes31:50

       Is it this or this? So just, like, name a, name a crime that's not gross that we can actually talk about. Anything you want, like s- stolen money.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:59

       Texting while driving.

   16. CHChase Hughes32:01

       Okay. Texting while n- well, they're not gonna be in an interrogation room-

   17. CWChris Williamson32:04

       Okay. Yeah, cool

   18. CHChase Hughes32:05

       ... for that, right?

   19. CWChris Williamson32:06

       Uh, uh, um, smuggling arms.

   20. CHChase Hughes32:08

       Okay, smuggling arms. Great. All right. So the first step would be socialize.

   21. CWChris Williamson32:11

       Fucking interrogation room for texting while driving. [laughs]

   22. CHChase Hughes32:14

       [laughs]

   23. CWChris Williamson32:15

       There's just armies of interrogators up and down the United States highways. Okay.

   24. CHChase Hughes32:19

       It was... It might solve the problem.

   25. CWChris Williamson32:20

       Yeah.

   26. CHChase Hughes32:21

       Okay, so smuggling arms. So you're talking to this person, and you decided that it's time to shift into interrogation. The beginning of an interrogation is called the interview pr- process, and the, the shift is called the confrontation. So the confrontation, uh, is basically just where you tell them, like, y- that they're lying, but you don't do it in a way that hurts their ego. So, uh, so I might say something like, "Chris, I appreciate you, and I just want you to know I've been doing this a really long time. I've, I've talked to a lot of people, and if there's, if there's one thing I know for sure, it's when I'm not getting the full story, and I don't think I'm getting the full story here." And then I go right into the socialize part of this thing. And when I say socialize, it's basically people will understand. So the line is, "I think at the end of the day, um, you did this because you're a good person, and I'm gonna explain why. And I've talked to a lot of bad people, and I know you're not a bad person, and I think when people see all the steps that led up to you getting wrapped up in this, that they're gonna understand." Then minimize. "And like I said, I don't think you're a bad guy. And, and to be honest, I deal with bad people all the time, and people that do way worse stuff than this. I've seen people that have done way worse than this get completely over it. So it's not that big of a deal. I'm not... Nobody's accusing you of being some mass murderer or something like that. This is not the same thing." Then it's rationalize. "I know you came from a, a poor village. I know that you had a, a really tough background, and I know that you're a good person. And I'm not saying whether or not you were doing this to pay for it, but I know that your aunt has several hundred thousand dollars in medical bills that she's needing to pay." Now I project. So now project is basically it's not your fault. "And I think anybody that was handed your conditions and your life would have probably made the same choices that you did. And there's... I know a lot of times these arms smuggling rings will use threats and pressure to get someone into the unit. So if that happened to you, I just want you to know that's something that I wanna know about, so I know that you didn't, like, deliberately decide to do this." And then we move into the alternative question. And I'll say, "So Chris, what I'm really trying to find out here is, were you doing this just to make a bunch of money and then go buy a bunch of drugs and live in some other country? Or were you really, like, trying to help one of your family members? Because I know these guys have been talking to you, and I've looked into you as well, and it doesn't look like you're a bad person." So now it's an alternative question of, are you a piece of crap or did you try to do something good for your family? So that's-

   27. CWChris Williamson35:01

       Both of them are admissions of guilt, though.

   28. CHChase Hughes35:04

       Yeah. Yeah. I'm just trying to find out the reason that this happened. Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson35:07

       You're not. You're trying to find out an admission of guilt.

   30. CHChase Hughes35:09

       Yes. Yes. But i- in the, in the conversation, we're trying to find out the, the reason it happened. So we're going for the admission of guilt because the, the first part of the interrogation, we... there's, like, a long series of questions we ask, and based on those responses, if they respond a certain way to each question, then we move towards the, uh, confession methodology.
8. 41:05 – 46:34

   The Psychology of Building Instant Rapport

   1. CWChris Williamson41:05

      All right, so, uh, when it comes to building rapport, what are the techniques that elite negotiators use to create rapport quickly?

   2. CHChase Hughes41:19

      Uh, number one is making an admission that other people might be embarrassed about, of some, of having a fault of some kind or being insecure about something.

   3. CWChris Williamson41:29

      Revealing something.

   4. CHChase Hughes41:30

      Yeah. Uh, just, uh, being something that's honest and true, so it's, it resonates.

   5. CWChris Williamson41:36

      What would be an example?

   6. CHChase Hughes41:37

      Um, it d- it would depend on the situation, but I might say something like, you know-

   7. CWChris Williamson41:43

      Bike, bike stolen. Let's stay with that.

   8. CHChase Hughes41:45

      What?

   9. CWChris Williamson41:45

      The stolen bike or the arms, whichever you want.

   10. CHChase Hughes41:48

       Well, yeah. Uh, so you're talking about interrogation room rapport?

   11. CWChris Williamson41:51

       Yeah.

   12. CHChase Hughes41:51

       Oh, okay. That's different.

   13. CWChris Williamson41:52

       Well, actually, stick with the normal rapport, and then we'll go back to interrogation room.

   14. CHChase Hughes41:55

       Yeah. So normal rapport, the, the admission might be, um, you know, I was, I was so, like, in my own head. I was so afraid to be open around other people, and I kind of, like, wore a mask for, like, 10, 15 years of my life until I realized, like, it's, it's not a big deal as I think it is. I'm not a big deal as I, I, I thought I was. And just saying something that other people really wouldn't and being honest about it is one of the, one of the fastest ways to make trust start happening in a conversation because just people are so fake that that is somehow rare now. And, and that's, that's why I think podcasts where there's a genuine dude on there get more views than CNN. I think Rogan's got more views than CNN. Um, but a- a- at the end of the day-That's one of the fastest ways to do it. Uh, another one of the fastest ways to do it in, in this world is to have ignorance and fascination about something that you pride yourself in knowing a lot about. So like if you're an electrical engineer or something, or, you know, some- or maybe you wire podcast studios for a living, I'd be like, "God, that's, that's always fascinated me with all that stuff. I don't think I could do that if I, if I tried for a year. I'm just not inclined to do that, but it's still fascinating." That's one of the fastest ways to absolutely do that. And I think, I do think rapport is a little bit overrated. I think at, at the end of the day, having contagious confidence to where the, your confidence is high enough to where the other person feels confident is so much more effective, and rapport is a byproduct of that.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:36

       Hmm.

   16. CHChase Hughes43:36

       So I always try to think like, what is upstream of the thing that I want? So if I want this as my desired end state, what are all the things that needed to happen to make this just an automatic byproduct of what I want at, at the end of the day? And one of the things that we found out over these years is i- in an interrogation room or in some business setting, it doesn't actually matter, is this level of confidence without any hierarchy or status. And the, the, the biggest mistake that most people make is like, if I say the word confidence, you're gonna think more than who, or higher than, or less, less confidence than. Uh, and that hierarchy thinking is the fastest way to collapse any kind of skill in human beings, because it pushes your awareness back behind your eyes. And I think when you're... If, if your awareness is in front of your eyes, people can really, really feel that. And one metaphor I use to talk about this a lot is, if I could go on a slight rant here. If you went into like... We're in Austin, so there's probably a piano store somewhere. Like let's say you and I went into like a big ass piano store, and they've got this big grand piano there, and I go up to the piano and I smash down the middle key really hard, which is a C. It's gonna send out this frequency through the entire store, and the C string on every other piano is gonna start resonating like crazy. But it's only that string is gonna vibrate, 'cause it's tuned to that frequency, right? It's not gonna vibrate any other strings except for C. The same thing works for tuning forks. So when I teach this stuff, it's that humans work almost exactly the same way. And one of the phrases that I teach is, wherever you're speaking from is where you're going to speak to in other people. Where you speak from, you will speak to. So if we're in a conversation and I'm worried about hierarchy and status, I'm, I'm plucking that same chord in, in the person I'm speaking to, 'cause it, that comes through. If I'm very confident, and not insecure confidence, posturing, uh, kind of stuff, um, that's gonna trigger confidence in the other person. So true confidence is really contagious. And the other confidence, like where you can tell somebody's like read 15 of those LinkedIn articles of like, oh, how to display CEO-level confidence.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:07

       Hmm.

   18. CHChase Hughes46:08

       Make solid eye contact, firm handshake-

   19. CWChris Williamson46:10

       Hmm

   20. CHChase Hughes46:11

       ... pat somebody on the arm, use their name, that kind of shit. Um, genuine confidence makes other people confident, absolutely. And having enough confidence to share without ever viewing it in l- in the lens of hierarchy and status is the fastest way to like this, whatever people call charisma. I think it's the fastest route.

9. 46:34 – 49:57

   Where Confidence Really Comes From

   1. CWChris Williamson46:34

      How do you think about appearing confident in a room?

   2. CHChase Hughes46:39

      Can you rephrase that?

   3. CWChris Williamson46:41

      What are the component parts of appearing confident to somebody?

   4. CHChase Hughes46:46

      Well, what we're really doing, like if you read one of those articles about like how confident people command a room and all that... There's YouTube videos all, all, all day long for that stuff. What I think they're made of is they're studying the symptoms of confidence. So if I wrap you in a heating blanket and squirt water in your nose, it does not give you COVID, but it gives you a couple of symptoms, right? It w- it doesn't work in reverse all the time. So what I think a lot of those people that train online is they're, they see somebody who's genuinely confident and they're like, "Oh, what are they doing with their body? They're standing up straight. Uh, they're speaking from their diaphragm. They're doing all of these things. They, they use hand gestures like this." And then oca- they're like, "Okay, let's make an Excel spreadsheet out of this. We're gonna figure this shit out." Like, "All right. How, how wide was the hand gesture?" Like, "Let me check. It's 36 inches. Yeah, it was 36." So then we train somebody to do this with their hands at 36 inches, and they've got social anxiety. It... They're gonna look like an idiot. It's not gonna look congruent. It's gonna feel like, "Whoa, what's going on with this guy?" So I think our culture is just obsessed with symptoms in general. Like I want the Ferrari and the yacht, m- and I don't want the bank account. I mean, I, I want the symptoms of being wealthy. I wanna show people that I have symptoms of wealth. But if you, if you look at the cause of confidence, and I think my definition of confidence is way different than what you'll read online, but I think confidence is two elements. Number one, it is a willingness to receive social injury. I'm willing to be socially injured.

   5. CWChris Williamson48:32

      Hmm.

   6. CHChase Hughes48:33

      Number two, uh, it is a generalized or, or kind of a fuzzy belief that things are gonna work out okay. Things are gonna be okay.So that social injury is typically why people can't feel confident. So it's social injury or permission. I don't have permission to be like that here. If I make 50K a year, I'm not gonna be confident walking into that Hermès, Hermès, whatever, Louis Vuitton-

   7. CWChris Williamson49:00

      Not a shop

   8. CHChase Hughes49:00

      ... luggage, uh, place. [laughs]

   9. CWChris Williamson49:04

      [laughs] Fucking Gucci.

   10. CHChase Hughes49:05

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson49:05

       Yeah.

   12. CHChase Hughes49:05

       Whatever. It, uh, and the confidence comes from, like, permission. I don't have permission to be here. They can tell that I'm not from here. So that's a role-based permission. But if you're willing to receive social injury, you're totally fine with it, you have a generalized expectation that things are gonna be okay, that is the first step to, like, really feeling confident and completely eliminating hierarchy and status from your mental thoughts forever, for the rest of your life, I think is the best way.

   13. CWChris Williamson49:34

       Because it's not related to how you and somebody else interact. It's within you.

   14. CHChase Hughes49:41

       Yeah, absolutely.

   15. CWChris Williamson49:43

       I feel like this is going to go okay, and if social rejection does come my way-

   16. CHChase Hughes49:48

       It's a-

   17. CWChris Williamson49:48

       ... I'm fine with it.

   18. CHChase Hughes49:48

       Yeah. It's a social injury and I'm... That's okay. It might hurt.

   19. CWChris Williamson49:51

       Mm.

   20. CHChase Hughes49:52

       I'm not saying I'm immune to any of it. It might hurt, but I'm okay. I'm, I'm happy to receive it.

10. 49:57 – 58:08

    What Makes a Great Communicator?

    1. CWChris Williamson49:57

       What do you make of Trump's behavior? How do you analyze him as a communicator?

    2. CHChase Hughes50:01

       Uh, he's a fabulous communicator. Uh, I think he speaks at a, I think a seventh-grade level. A lot of good leaders speak at a low level. I think Obama was seventh or eighth grade, uh, level as well. But why do they do that? Becau- they will become more followable. Like, exactly what we were talking about with authority and why we follow authority figures in, in times of distress. And I think he's a communicator that is obviously self-serving, self-fulfilling, and people call him a narcissist. That's... which is a, a diagnostic term for insurance companies, uh, which is why that was invented. [laughs] But, uh, y- say whatever you want. But he is... I think he's a great communicator. I think he gets the point across, but he's just... He's very idiosyncratic. He's weird. He does stuff that other people don't do. He breaks from a lot of the norms.

    3. CWChris Williamson50:55

       Mm.

    4. CHChase Hughes50:56

       Um, but the communication is effective. Why is it effective, though? Like, how does he get so much attention? Well, one, he's kinda loud, but number two, it's novelty. We talked, like novelty massively generates focus in human beings, and he's like a novelty master. He's a magician o- of novelty. So he's the dude, uh, when it comes to that, and he is not the clearest communicator, uh, when it comes to, like, long vision and plans and stuff like that, but he says things that are followable. He's, has ideas that are very easy to follow. Man, Shane Gillis did a bit about him talking about Baghdadi when Baghdadi... Have you seen?

    5. CWChris Williamson51:38

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    6. CHChase Hughes51:38

       It's one of the best videos on YouTube. But it, it was just hilarious how simply... It was absolutely simple [laughs] how he communicated everything, and it painted a picture in your head.

    7. CWChris Williamson51:48

       Yeah.

    8. CHChase Hughes51:49

       Uh, and he did it in a way that didn't have to use literary, flowery poetry language and all of that, but it, it put a very clear picture in your head when he said that stuff.

    9. CWChris Williamson52:00

       It's interesting to think about how distinctive someone's voice is, and it's, it's typical that a lot of people that have massive cultural influence have a distinctive... If you can do an impression of someone, probably a good indication they've got quite a distinctive voice.

    10. CHChase Hughes52:19

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson52:19

        You can do an impression of Jordan Peterson-

    12. CHChase Hughes52:22

        Yeah

    13. CWChris Williamson52:22

        ... quite easily.

    14. CHChase Hughes52:23

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson52:23

        Very distinctive voice. Can do an impression of Andrew Tate quite easily.

    16. CHChase Hughes52:28

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson52:28

        Very distinctive voice. Distinctive, distinctive speaking cadence, repetition. Uh, this, uh, Russell Brand, unnecessarily ve- verbose and articulate.

    18. CHChase Hughes52:38

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson52:38

        Sort of meandering sentences, listicle style. With Trump, sort of punchy thing. Uh, uh, superfluous, uh, restatement of the past point with embellishment and a little bit of bravado. Uh, Obama, staccato. Very sharp.

    20. CHChase Hughes52:58

        Yep.

    21. CWChris Williamson52:58

        "This. Well, it's this, and then it's this."

    22. CHChase Hughes53:00

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson53:00

        "And then it..." Like da pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa. Uh, you know, just, I, I think that there's something to be said about a signature style. Like, it, it... Sometimes, much of the time, maybe even most of the time, the impressions [laughs] that someone does about another person, typically not that flattering. Not... Most impressions aren't done-

    24. CHChase Hughes53:20

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson53:20

        ... to pay a compliment to someone.

    26. CHChase Hughes53:22

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson53:23

        But if someone can do an impression of you easily, you kind of own an area of verbal real estate. Like, "I have this. If you do that, like, is that fucking Kermit the Frog or Jordan Peterson? I can't work it out. But it's one of them."

    28. CHChase Hughes53:38

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson53:38

        "I know it's one of them. In there." And if you do a Trump, even a bad Trump impression, I know that's Trump. And actually, that's a good judge of how effective [laughs] someone is as a, uh, rhetorician and of having a distinctive and signature style of speaking.

    30. CHChase Hughes53:54

        Yeah.
11. 58:08 – 1:08:23

    How Your Body Language Reveals Your Insecurities

    1. CWChris Williamson58:08

       You're talking there about, uh, building confidence, but I'm interested in what behaviors instantly reveal insecurity. You mentioned micro pauses as one that maybe not insecurity, but authority and trustworthiness perhaps.

    2. CHChase Hughes58:24

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:24

       What are the behaviors that reveal insecurity?

    4. CHChase Hughes58:27

       So when it comes to insecurity, let's go mammalian and then human. So the mammalian, uh, fear response or insecurity response is a reduced arm swing, incomplete movements. So like I'm gonna reach for this, I'm gonna stop, and then kinda continue doing it, and then the movements aren't completed.

    5. CWChris Williamson58:49

       Hmm.

    6. CHChase Hughes58:49

       You'll see a lot of that kind of stuff.

    7. CWChris Williamson58:50

       Hmm.

    8. CHChase Hughes58:51

       And you'll see reduced eye contact and a downward motion, and biggest of all, you're gonna see the body moving or staying in areas that protect arteries. This means you'll see a lot less of this. You'll see the humerus kinda sit in a little bit closer to the body while they're talking so that the brachial artery is protected. You'll see the shoulders a little bit up in s- in social situations, that'll stay a little higher, their head coming down a little bit, uh, protecting the carotid arteries. You'll see the arms in front of their body like this sometimes. This is called a fig leaf gesture, um, named by Alan Pease.

    9. CWChris Williamson59:30

       'Cause it's covering the genitals?

    10. CHChase Hughes59:31

        Covering, yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson59:32

        Oh, interesting.

    12. CHChase Hughes59:33

        But it's also protecting the femoral arteries at, at the same time, and men are more likely to do that. Women are more likely to wrap a single arm around the abdomen like this while they're talking during... like if they're insecure, and this is protecting the uterus area. And there are studies on this. I have no idea who did the studies.

    13. CWChris Williamson59:54

        Hmm.

    14. CHChase Hughes59:54

        But, uh, this was originally written about by a guy named Desmond Morris, uh, who, who just I think died in the last month or two. He was in his 90ss. But he's like the first researcher who wrote a book about really observing humans as if they were animals, like what... how did their, how did their body move and... Uh, so the book was called Naked Ape, like us.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:00:16

        Hmm.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:00:16

        Like the hairless monkey. And he studied... He was like this savant at, at human behavior. But anyway, like when you're looking at the insecure behaviors, and you're... if you're looking at two people, what you really wanna look at, especially if there's two people, is which person needs something more from the other person, and which person is reacting to the other person. The one th- Man, I'm hesitant to reveal thisThe one thing that I teach, uh, a lot of these venture capital people, they'll, they'll get pitched a lot. Uh, I've never been to one of the pitches

    17. CWChris Williamson1:00:59

        I've been on the pitching side quite a bit over the last six months, so-

    18. CHChase Hughes1:01:03

        Okay

    19. CWChris Williamson1:01:03

        ... I know what this feels like.

    20. CHChase Hughes1:01:05

        The one thing that I teach them to look for is what's called lip compression. And we tend to do this at, at times when we are, we are withholding a little bit of information or we're withholding an emotion. So like imagine like if your friend started a new job and you're like, "Hey dude, how's, how's the new job?" And he goes, "Oh, it's great." [laughs] So that lip compression is withholding. So what I teach them to do is watch for the compression. The moment you see it, just rewind. What were they just talking about right before you see it?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

        How's the financials in the business?

    22. CHChase Hughes1:01:45

        Yeah. He says, "Oh, all the financials are great. Uh, we've, we've projected out a good, uh, thing for the next couple of quarters." And you'll see that just that little lip compression is-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:01:56

        Is that lip compression... I'm always interested in why that particular expression or feature is associated with that particular motive or leak. What is it? Is it-

    24. CHChase Hughes1:02:10

        It's, it's our first way of withholding. It's our first way to hold in milk. Um, like a tongue jut, like after someone tells a lie, they... Like there's something called a tongue jut that's very common, like this. This is our first no. It's a way to force a nipple out of the mouth. Uh, and these are theories of Desmond Morris' as well. Um, like this is our first way of withholding and keeping milk in the mouth, and our first no is pushing our, our tongue out or pursing our lips a little bit. What?

    25. CWChris Williamson1:02:41

        That's sick.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:02:42

        [laughs]

    27. CWChris Williamson1:02:42

        Is that not cool?

    28. CHChase Hughes1:02:43

        Okay. Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:02:43

        Is that not cool?

    30. CHChase Hughes1:02:44

        Fucking amazing.
12. 1:08:23 – 1:10:35

    The Hidden Meaning Behind Interrupted Gestures

    1. CWChris Williamson1:08:23

       Just go back to... Can you recap the behaviors that, uh, display insecurity again?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:08:32

       Yeah. So protecting arteries is number one, and this is brachial, carotid, femoral, and this arm wrap that, uh, you'll see more likely in women of wrapping like a single arm like this, uh, protecting the uterus, and incomplete gestures. So if someone makes a gesture, they don't complete it, and then they kind of stop, or they-- it's, it's interrupted.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:55

       Hmm.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:08:55

       Interrupted Gestures.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:56

       What's going on there?

    6. CHChase Hughes1:08:58

       It's self-doubt. Like, am I allowed to do this? D- is-- do I have permission to do this? Is this gonna make me look weird? How am I being perceived? It's-- so it's a lot of like people that are insecure. It's-- experiencing insecurity, it's about self-perception. Like how am-- how is Chris perceiving me?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:09:16

       Hmm.

    8. CHChase Hughes1:09:17

       Does he like me? Is there something wrong? Am I being judged right now? So, uh, and maybe I need-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:09:22

       I'll move in a hesitant manner.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:09:23

        Yeah. Maybe this was too fast. Maybe I did this thing t- weirdly. Maybe I need to slow down. Can I grab this thing right now? It's not open. Can I open it on a podcast? It's got a loud-ass thing next to a microphone.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:09:34

        Answers yes.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:09:34

        All of that kind of stuff.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:09:35

        Answer's always yes.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:09:35

        Yeah. Can I open it right now?

    15. CWChris Williamson1:09:36

        Yeah, yeah. Get in here.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:09:37

        I've been wondering this whole time.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:09:38

        Good, good, good. Um, and that is the same presumably as the micro pauses when it comes to words, communication. Uh, uh, am I okay to say this thing? I'm unsure. I've got more processing power. I guess there's more going on than just that, um, uncertainty about what I'm saying, how I'm going to say it, where am I going next? What did I just say? How is this couched in the broader context of what I've been saying throughout this entire conversation?

    18. CHChase Hughes1:10:04

        Yeah. It's a lot more self-management. And if you're wanting to spot insecurity changes, watch for someone in a conversation that their lips have been parted the whole time, and all of a sudden they're like, "Oh, yeah," and they close their lips and they stay closed a little bit. So that's another one. So if you're seeing a little bit, tiny bit of stress behavior and then their lips close, when they're normally just... If we're really interested in something, our lips part just a little bit.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:10:30

        Hmm.

    20. CHChase Hughes1:10:31

        Uh, and then when we experience a little bit of stress, we'll have lip closure again.

13. 1:10:35 – 1:15:11

    How to Instantly Appear Non-Threatening

    1. CWChris Williamson1:10:36

       I remember seeing a image of someone doing the holding gesture, that thing, and it was described [chuckles] ... It's a very British thing to do. I don't know whether you're aware of this. So there's something in the UK called chavs, and chavs are a little bit like hicks or rednecks, sort of, um, antisocial behavior. That's not to dismiss hicks and ri- rednecks, many of them. There's some of them in this room. But, uh-

    2. CHChase Hughes1:11:03

       Yeah, I've been to Stoke-on-Trent

    3. CWChris Williamson1:11:05

       ... the, the-- Okay, that city-

    4. CHChase Hughes1:11:08

       Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson1:11:08

       ... that city, if that city was a person, that person would be a chav. [chuckles]

    6. CHChase Hughes1:11:12

       Yeah. Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:11:14

       Um, that, uh, antisocial behavior thing is-- was, was a meme in the UK probably until the early twenty tens, and that, and then it kind of stopped, and it doesn't really exist anymore. And it was a meme of someone saying, "The face that I make when I walk past a grandmother walking her small dog in the street to show her that I'm not a chav or a threat." And I've noticed-

    8. CHChase Hughes1:11:39

       I bet there's a German word to describe exactly that entire phrase.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:11:42

       Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The schadenfreude equivalent of, of whatever it is.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:11:47

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:11:47

        There's one of my favorite, it's, uh, zugrummen, which is the frustration that migratory birds feel when they are prevented from migrating.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:11:57

        Of course, there's a word for that.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:11:59

        [laughs] Fucking German's so good, dude. Must be a nightmare to learn. Um, uh, but yeah, is-- that's-- Actually, that would be a good example. What are some of the reliable body language signals, behaviors that people put across when they're not a threat?

    14. CHChase Hughes1:12:18

        Oh, you'll see more open palms.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:12:20

        Okay.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:12:21

        Uh, and typically at navel height. Navel height, and this comes from a friend of mine, Mark Bowden, uh, body language expert. Uh, we have a show called "The Behavior Panel." Have you heard of this on YouTube? Uh, it's four of us, four, uh, body language dudes.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:12:38

        Nerds.

    18. CHChase Hughes1:12:38

        Nerds, yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:12:38

        It's totally what it is. [chuckles]

    20. CHChase Hughes1:12:40

        Um, and all of us just nerd out on body language, but we'll take-- every week we'll take video and break it down. Police body cam video, celebrity videoParents saying their kid's missing, and we'll just be like, "Oop, their kid might not be missing." And like, we'll-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:12:59

        I love this shit, dude

    22. CHChase Hughes1:13:00

        ... and we'll break down everything

    23. CWChris Williamson1:13:00

        I live for it. This is, this is... I'm gonna be watching this for the next few weeks. This is my sort of stuff.

    24. CHChase Hughes1:13:04

        Yeah, it was like, we were just doing it during COVID for fun, and then we, like, had a million subscribers, uh, in short order, and then it was fun for all of us, so we just kept doing it.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:13:15

        Hm.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:13:16

        What was your question?

    27. CWChris Williamson1:13:17

        Non-threatening behavior-

    28. CHChase Hughes1:13:18

        Yeah. So-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:13:18

        ... because grandma walking down the street doing the-

    30. CHChase Hughes1:13:21

        Yeah
14. 1:15:11 – 1:19:15

    Are Threats Hard to Predict?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:15:12

       What about early warning signs that somebody is a threat or may have aggression?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:15:19

       It's so hard to predict, especially if somebody's trying to hide it. The... I train law enforcement in some of these, and it's still very hard to predict. There, we, we talked about four different types. There's C-O-P-E. It's concealment, oxygenation, preparation, and expenditure, like they're trying to burn off energy. And in the concealment aspect, you really want someone who is concealing their intention. So right before some kind of violent action takes place, they'll break eye contact but keep you in peripheral vision for a prolonged period of time.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:15:50

       Mm.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:15:52

       And the second piece of that is you'll see a dominant foot withdrawal. Even if they're not gonna punch you, you're gonna see broken eye contact and dominant shoulder either start moving away or dominant foot going back.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:16:04

       Hm.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:16:04

       Um, and that, that's kind of blading the body, but getting kind of prepared for an attack.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:16:08

       Yeah.

    8. CHChase Hughes1:16:09

       And in America, what we teach the police is that, like, no one can draw a weapon from concealment without making a 90-degree angle with your body. So like, if you're not seeing 90-degree angles, they're not gonna... They can't get a weapon out.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:16:23

       Show me what you mean.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:16:24

        So like if I have a... Show me where I've got a weapon, anywhere you like. Okay.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:16:27

        About right in the front.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:16:28

        So I've, I'm hitting 90 degrees just reaching for the, for the weapon, right? So if I'm, if I'm talking to somebody who's standing there and I'm a police officer, and I see someone quickly move to a 90-degree position, I need to be very focused on what's going on. It doesn't mean they're drawing a weapon, but you cannot draw a weapon from concealment without this 90-degree phenomenon.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:16:48

        Hm. Mm-hmm. One of my favorite insights about blading is from, uh, Robin Dunbar, and he has this book called Friends. A cool thing that you can do the next time that you're at a party is look at the angle of the feet of men talking to each other and of women talking to each other. Women talk perpendicular. They talk 180 degrees.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:17:10

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:17:10

        Feet to feet, straight on. Men talk at about 120 degrees. They blade. It's more shoulder to shoulder. And if you're a guy, just try the next time that you're talking to someone, ideally someone that you don't know super well, maybe someone that you just met. Rotate yourself around to 180 degrees-

    16. CHChase Hughes1:17:27

        Straight on

    17. CWChris Williamson1:17:28

        ... and go straight on, and you'll begin to feel this strange spider crawling, tickling up, because typically the only time that men would have squared up to each other is if they were about to fight.

    18. CHChase Hughes1:17:38

        Especially if you're close. Like if your distance is like two or three feet and then you have like fa- head-on stuff. This is why they put bars or, uh, mirrors up in bars in the, in the Old West. So men could talk to each other and they were side by side, but you could still see them in the mirror.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:17:54

        That's interesting.

    20. CHChase Hughes1:17:55

        And it w- it reduced the bar fights and stuff.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:17:58

        Why? Because you wouldn't misconstrue something that someone had just said?

    22. CHChase Hughes1:18:02

        Yeah, so they're not facing each other at all.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:18:04

        Hm.

    24. CHChase Hughes1:18:04

        But you and I could be sitting here side to s- side by side and look at each other's faces in the mirror and have a full-blown conversation. There's no, no threatening.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:18:12

        Hm.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:18:12

        So we're both aligned facing the same direction.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:18:14

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15. 1:19:15 – 1:21:52

    The Biggest Body Language Difference Between Men and Women

    1. CWChris Williamson1:19:15

       Interesting the levels of intimacy that are opened up through not being straight on. There are certain styles of therapy that are done lying down with a therapist to your side. Therapist isn't sat at the foot of the bed staring at you like a doctor coming in, flipping out a clipboard. And there's a Men's Sheds initiative that happened in Australia. It's pretty interesting. So they were trying to get Australian men to talk about their mental health. Uh, Australians, probably not great at talking about their mental health. Men, not- and they got a two times multiplier for putting those two things together. So instead of... They tried to get... We're gonna have the com- Also if you think about AA also, largely shoulder to shoulder, although you can go across, but the across is further away-

    2. CHChase Hughes1:19:58

       Yeah

    3. CWChris Williamson1:19:58

       ... than the shoulder.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:19:59

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:19:59

       So you have intimacy plus directness. But with the Men's Sheds thing, they [laughs] realized that if they got guys together to do something with the front of their brain, because John's broken his lawnmower, but Chris has got the good wrench, and Chase has got the hammer and the welding material. After a while, all of these guys would bring the thing in, and they'd be working together, and I'd be using the wrench, and you'd be using the hammer or whatever. And before long, we'd be talking about the fact that John's marriage is breaking down, or that he doesn't have a good relationship with his kid or whatever it might be. But it was... The synopsis was men relate shoulder to shoulder, women relate face to face. And it's interesting. It's interesting. What... That's a good one. What other sex differences are there in communication? What are the biggest ones? You mentioned that women cover up like this. Certainly, the face-to-face versus shoulder-to-shoulder thing seems pretty massive.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:20:53

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:20:54

       What are some of the other interesting ones?

    8. CHChase Hughes1:20:56

       Uh, w- there's two big ones. You know, men will most often, like, reach for the stomach during times of uncertainty. So just kind of scratching or adjusting. You've seen the guys on the beach that are like, like how, you know, somebody looking at me, they'll kind of lean back and, like, scratching right here.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:21:12

       Yeah.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:21:12

        Like this. Like, this is all, like, the, uh, like a pacifier for us.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:21:17

        Oh.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:21:17

        A little pacifying behavior. And women during the same, like, period of stress, since stress builds up heat, and most women have this long hair over their neck, it builds up a heat back here. So you'll see women reach back and lift the hair over their neck for just a second to ventilate that area.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:21:34

        Mm.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:21:35

        And they'll do it unconsciously.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:21:36

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:21:37

        Uh, so those are two big ones that you'll see.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:21:38

        What do you think the men's stomach thing is? What, what's going on there? What's that-

    18. CHChase Hughes1:21:42

        I have no idea

    19. CWChris Williamson1:21:43

        ... soothing behavior?

    20. CHChase Hughes1:21:43

        I have no... Well, it's, yeah, it's a self-soothing behavior, but I, I don't know the origin of it or some-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:21:49

        What it's trying to achieve

    22. CHChase Hughes1:21:49

        ... evolutionary thing.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:21:50

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh,

16. 1:21:52 – 1:32:24

    What Blinking Reveals About Your Emotions

    1. CWChris Williamson1:21:52

       have you seen footage of Wade Wilson in, on the stand? This is the Deadpool killer.

    2. CHChase Hughes1:21:58

       No.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:21:58

       Okay. I'm gonna... This is cool. You haven't seen this one. Maybe-

    4. CHChase Hughes1:22:01

       Let's bring it up.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:22:01

       Yeah. Jerry, can you just pull up, um, Deadpool killer sentencing?

    6. CHChase Hughes1:22:06

       Is this from the movie Deadpool?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:22:07

       No. So this guy's called Wade Wilson, and there's a great... You would love this. You, you guys should actually do... If you're still doing the reaction thing, it would be cool for you guys to do a reaction to the Netflix series that's just come out. It's called, uh, Worst Ex Ever. And a lot of it, uh, at least the two episodes that I saw last week, Wade Wilson's the first one, and the character Deadpool, Ryan Reynolds' character, his real name is Wade Wilson. Yeah, here we go. Here we go.

    8. SPSpeaker1:22:32

       And it would be only further broken if it took Wade's last breath. That broken system owes Christine, and it owes Diane, and it owes their families, and it owes our family-

    9. CHChase Hughes1:22:43

       So stop, Rio. So one thing that you'll see, especially in men, when... You'll see this in women too sometimes, but you'll see it in men, is we, we talked about, like, arteries. When we want to show defiance and, and, and that I'm, I'm not scared of you. Like, if we're about to get in a fight and I'll be like, "What?" And like-

    10. CWChris Williamson1:23:01

        You show your neck.

    11. CHChase Hughes1:23:02

        Yeah. So we'll, like, expose the arteries. Look, you'll see the arms come out like this.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:23:06

        I'm not scared of you.

    13. CHChase Hughes1:23:07

        Yeah. So, like, I'm exposing arteries, and we see that in-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:23:10

        Legs apart, neck open.

    15. CHChase Hughes1:23:13

        Yeah. Leaning back. So this is almost like a sh- a display of absolute lack of fear.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:23:19

        Dismissiveness.

    17. CHChase Hughes1:23:20

        Like a challenge.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:23:20

        Dismissiveness.

    19. CHChase Hughes1:23:21

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:23:21

        All right, let's keep going.

    21. SPSpeaker1:23:23

        Steve Wilson.

    22. SPSpeaker1:23:25

        Thank you.

    23. SPSpeaker1:23:25

        We would rest.

    24. SPSpeaker1:23:27

        All right.

    25. SPSpeaker1:23:27

        The state just asks that you colloquy the defendant to ensure that he doesn't want to speak at this hearing.

    26. SPSpeaker1:23:32

        Well, Mr. Wilson, you have an opportunity just like during any of the other phases of-

    27. SPSpeaker1:23:35

        Not at this hearing

    28. SPSpeaker1:23:35

        ... Well, let me just finish real quick. Any o- other phases during the case, uh, if you want to address the court, uh, I would permit you to do that. Obviously, you know, everything's recorded. Uh, but, uh, you would have that opportunity if you wish. No one can prevent you from addressing the court-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:23:51

        Hasn't blinked yet

    30. SPSpeaker1:23:51

        ... if you wish to. And-
17. 1:32:24 – 1:34:38

    The Biggest Myths About Reading Body Language

    1. CWChris Williamson1:32:24

       in. What are the, uh, biggest misconceptions that we have about reading others, some of the falsehoods, lies about human behavior?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:32:38

       I think number one is, is that there's one behavior that means one thing all the time. There's a few exceptions, like blink rate, uh, is a, is a difference. But then somebody's like, "Oh, what if I have asthma?" We're like, "Then you... Then it won't be a change. It'll be your baseline." The-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:32:56

       What does asthma have to do with your blink rate?

    4. CHChase Hughes1:32:58

       Like allergies and stuff.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:32:59

       Oh, okay.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:33:00

       Um-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:33:01

       Right. Yeah

    8. CHChase Hughes1:33:01

       ... so, like, if, if they're blinking fast the whole time, then who cares? Then that's your baseline.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:33:06

       Yeah.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:33:07

        Uh, so there's a few, very, very few exceptions, but when you hear, like, this means that somebody's being deceptive, like, 'cause they scratch their nose or something like that, I think it's one of the biggest misconceptions. I think another is, is certainty. People... Like, you'll hear body language experts all the time be like, "Absolutely this person's lying. You can tell because he did this and this at the same time." Like, I, I feel irresponsible ever saying that, like, my eyeballs are more accurate than a, like a polygraph.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:33:38

        Mm.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:33:39

        That seems silly to me. Uh, so I think it's, it's a likelihood game, and I think we should be honest that it's a likelihood game. No matter how good you are, uh, we... I don't think any behavior expert in the world can still, uh, spot a psychopath, even though there's all this training on, out there on how to do that kind of stuff.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:33:59

        Why?

    14. CHChase Hughes1:34:00

        The, the signals are hidden. They've spent a lifetime honing composure and-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:34:08

        Deception

    16. CHChase Hughes1:34:08

        ... and, and decepting, uh, dec- being deceptive with their face and their expressions-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:34:13

        Yeah

    18. CHChase Hughes1:34:13

        ... and their breathing and all that kind of stuff. Most of the time doing it unconsciously.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:34:17

        And presumably, yeah, exactly. Presumably that would be so idiosyncratic for that one person as well. Where did their psychopathy come from? What are their patterns?

    20. CHChase Hughes1:34:26

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:34:26

        What are they trying to hide? What have been their experiences in the past, and what have been their tells, and then what have been their compensations for their tells that now result in this behavior?

    22. CHChase Hughes1:34:36

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:34:37

        And

18. 1:34:38 – 1:39:20

    Does Hypnosis Actually Work?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:34:38

       you know what I want to bring up, Jared? Can you search on YouTube Danny Trejo, T-R-E-J-O, uh, Charles Manson? So this is a clip from the pod, and this is interesting for you given that you talked about drugs. This is interesting, uh, around hypnosis. So Danny Trejo, the Hollywood actor with the massive chest tattoo, big sort of cholo dude.

    2. CHChase Hughes1:35:03

       Oh, yeah, yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:35:04

       Yeah. Uh, Machete, that guy. Um, he-

    4. CHChase Hughes1:35:08

       Isn't he, like, a really nice guy in real life and stuff?

    5. CWChris Williamson1:35:09

       Sickest dude. Sickest dude.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:35:11

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:35:11

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a great conversation with him a few years ago. So you met Charles Manson in prison, didn't you? What was that story?

    8. SPSpeaker1:35:18

       In jail.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:35:18

       Can you tell us that?

    10. SPSpeaker1:35:19

        In county jail. In the county jail. But let me tell you, Charlie wasn't the guy-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:35:24

        Calls him Charlie

    12. SPSpeaker1:35:25

        ... that you saw on the TV specials. All right? He was a, a... Oh, God, he was, like, five foot four, five foot five, little scrawny. Uh, he was poor, kind of like a bum really. He, he had a, he had a, a, a, a string for a belt. He tied his pants with a string 'cause he couldn't afford a belt, you know? And, and, and everybody else, we dressed, you know, cool. Ironed our pants and, and, uh... And so the, some of the prisoners were gonna take advantage of him, 'cause they take advantage of anybody that's small. And, uh, we found out that he could hypnotize you. So we, we let him sleep in front of our cell to, to, you know, to make sure that nobody would hurt him. And, and, uh, he got us loaded on weed and, and three of the guys in this cell. Everybody else had, like, six guys in their cell. We only had three, 'cause we were special. [laughs] I had two killers with me, so, so, so, uh... And then, uh, and then he got us loaded on weed, and I said, "Well, get us loaded on heroin." So the three of us tried to get loaded. He got two of us loaded on-

    13. CHChase Hughes1:36:41

        Yeah

    14. SPSpeaker1:36:42

        ... heroin. One guy just woke up, and afterwards I asked him, "How come, how come you couldn't do him?" And he says-

    15. CHChase Hughes1:36:47

        Never did it before

    16. SPSpeaker1:36:48

        ... he asked him, "Did you ever get loaded on heroin?"

    17. CHChase Hughes1:36:50

        Yeah.

    18. SPSpeaker1:36:50

        "No." Well, your mind doesn't know how to work.

    19. CHChase Hughes1:36:53

        Yeah.

    20. SPSpeaker1:36:53

        Do you understand? Your mind doesn't know how to react. So if I tell you to do something while you're hypnotized, and you haven't done it before or you don't know how to do it, uh, you'll just wake up, and that's what kept happening.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:37:13

        So yeah, he hypnotized Danny fucking Trejo [laughs] and his two cellmates. But one of the dudes hadn't done heroin before.

    22. CHChase Hughes1:37:22

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:37:22

        And Danny goes on to say that when you do heroin, apparently you throw up. It's quite likely that you're gonna throw up at some point. And Danny and the other guy that had done it threw up, and the dude that hadn't, didn't.

    24. CHChase Hughes1:37:33

        Yeah. This is a thing. This is a real thing. Uh, for some things, like-I absolu-- and I, I'm a hypnotist, uh, and that was just part of learning all of this brain stuff. I w-went to many different hypnosis schools and trainings and stuff. I don't, I don't think that you could do it with like mushrooms or LSD or anything like that because it's a such a brain connective and massively immersive experience.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:38:04

        Hmm. It's too complex to replicate.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:38:07

        Yeah. Like if... Alcohol, you could get someone drunk very easily-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:38:11

        Hmm

    28. CHChase Hughes1:38:11

        ... uh, on hypnosis. Heroin maybe, like you're kind of creating some of that euphoria. Um, but initially you wanna create the, the negative conditions of the thing first, uh, so your body believes that it's possible and your brain's easier at connecting or at making bad shit happen anyway.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:38:32

        Like vomiting.

    30. CHChase Hughes1:38:32

        Yeah. It's way easier for your brain to default to negative. This is why our ancestors would always, uh, confuse a, a bear for a rock and not a rock for a bar- a bear. Maybe the other way around. But, so you get the negative thing first and then your brain's like, "Wow, this is really easy." Then once you do that, you're just like, this time you're not gonna have this negative thing, but you have all the other positive benefits of this. There was a guy in the 1980s, I can't remember his name. Maybe, I think it was Marshall Sylver, but it... I think it was him. Uh, but there was this program called Drug of Choice, uh, where you could order a, a audio tape and you could-
19. 1:39:20 – 1:41:40

    The Most Effective Truth Extraction Techniques

    1. CWChris Williamson1:39:21

       Going back to the deception detecting stuff, what's the best way to get the truth out of someone quickly?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:39:28

       Wh- In what situation?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:39:29

       Normal conversation between you and someone that you think is being deceptive. It's cordial. You're not going to do anything too nefarious. How do you get the truth out of someone?

    4. CHChase Hughes1:39:39

       It's socialize, minimize, rationalize, and project. You say, "Chris, look, I know that... I, I think everybody's gonna understand. If, if something happened, I think everybody's gonna understand, and I promise you it's not a big deal to me." That's minimize. "And it makes perfect sense everything lined up the way it did and shit happened the way it did, that it's not a big deal. And frankly, it wasn't your fault. These people kind of put this in front of you, or this thing happened, or you downloaded that app and you didn't know what it was, and I think everything's completely fine. But w- the one thing that's always been important to you and me is our friendship, and I don't wanna lose that." And then hopefully you ask them, uh, ask them the question again at the end of that.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:40:18

       Hmm. I wonder what it is... At each stage, I'm trying to think about if, if it was me, what I'm trying to hold on to, what it is that I'm grasping for, and I think part of it is it feels like treading water and someone throwing you a lifeline so that you're less alone in the discomfort and the loss, the, the confusion of trying to hold this thing together. "Oh, someone sees, someone sees why I did this thing."

    6. CHChase Hughes1:40:57

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:40:58

       "And it's not that big of a deal anyway, if I am to admit it, but they're there with me." I think a lot of it is around, "I'm not going to have to bear this burden alone anymore."

    8. CHChase Hughes1:41:12

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:41:14

       Trying to sort of feel what comes up as you're-

    10. CHChase Hughes1:41:16

        Yeah

    11. CWChris Williamson1:41:17

        ... role playing this bike stealing.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:41:18

        Yeah. Those are the big f- those are the four reasons that your brain will kind of resist telling the truth.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:41:24

        Hmm.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:41:25

        "People won't understand. This is a huge deal. It doesn't make sense why I did this, and it's all my fault." So I just wanna alleviate those four things-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:41:35

        Yes. Yes. Yes

    16. CHChase Hughes1:41:36

        ... as fast as possible.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:41:37

        Yes. The alleviation.

20. 1:41:40 – 1:47:23

    The Hidden Weight of Emotional Debt

    1. CWChris Williamson1:41:41

       Why can't people relax? What's the truth about emotional debt? I've heard you talk about this.

    2. CHChase Hughes1:41:46

       Dude, this is a, a big one. I think this goes back to what we talked about at the very beginning, was people carrying around shame, and everybody thinks that they're the only one. I- If we're really, really honest with ourselves, like we walk around every day, we have this... We conceal shame because there are a lot of institutions that are around today that have made shame into an institution, like social enforcement and shame.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:42:20

       Hmm.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:42:21

       And everyone thinks it's just me. I'm the only one hiding this shit from everybody else. If I, if I start becoming real, everyone, everyone's gonna leave me. I'm gonna be abandoned by my friends. I'm gonna get outcast and judged. I have to keep hiding this. And everyone thinks it's just them. The cool thing is that it's literally 100% of people. It's every single human being is out there carrying the exact same shit as you, and they all think it's just them. Uh, that's the... It's saddening, but I think it's beautiful at the same time, that we all... We, we really do share a lot more in common, especially with the s- things that we hide from each other-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:43:03

       Hmm

    6. CHChase Hughes1:43:04

       ... uh, than we're, than a lot of us would be willing to admit. So when we encounter like emotional debt, this is typically when I'm a little kid, what are the patterns I had to develop to earn friends and keep friends, to feel safe, or to attain some kind of social reward, like appreciation or love or something like that? So if something in my childhood made one of those three things happen, friends, safety, and rewards, then that, that... the brain says, "Oh, this worked. I'm gonna make an app out of this shit."So your brain makes an app and says, "I know exactly how to produce this thing, so I'm gonna make an app, and I'm gonna run that app all the time." So for the first couple years, it's an app that you're consciously clicking on in social situations. By the time you're, like, probably 12 or 13, that's solidified in your behavior. And then fast-forward, you've got a 34-year-old woman working in an office who had to kiss some bully's ass in middle school, and that's all she does as an adult.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:44:09

       Hmm.

    8. CHChase Hughes1:44:10

       So, uh, we carry all these little childhood things without knowing it, like, which, this loaded childhood backpack into adulthood.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:44:19

       It's gone from being an app to being source code.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:44:21

        Yeah. It m- beautifully said. Yes. And we carry it into adulthood withou- without knowing. And we don't... Uh, you can look at just about any adult in the world and say, you know, "If we went back in time, what did you do to do friend, safety, and rewards back in childhood?" And then you say, "Oh, you came to me for help with this XYZ thing. Look at your eight-year-old self. Let's go back in time and take a look at him."

    11. CWChris Williamson1:44:48

        Hmm.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:44:49

        Um, and then you're like, "Oh, wow, that's it. I mean, that's all I was trying to do." And that is emotional debt, and every time we're not dealing with a lot of that stuff directly, every time we hide it from someone else, we're withdrawing from an account, and we're, we're kind of overdrafting everything in our life. So concealment is, is one of the most exhausting, cognitively exhausting things that there is when, when it comes to human behavior. Concealment is more mentally taxing than doing calculus. Like, just trying to act like you've got your shit together, uh, in a social situation and, like, faking it hard is harder than calculus to our brains. So f- I mean, fuck. That's... It sucks, uh, that, uh, I mean, a lot of us are paying this emotional debt, and I think that's it. It's like the costume is heavy. The, the costumes that we're wearing are, just get heavier and heavier because we keep adding stuff on it, and a lot of us, by the time we hit 18, 19 years old, uh, we're like a decorator crab. You know, I've kind of... You know what a decorator crab is?

    13. CWChris Williamson1:46:05

        No.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:46:06

        Can we bring up a picture of a decorator crab?

    15. CWChris Williamson1:46:08

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:46:09

        So these crabs will go around their whole life and find shit on the beach and, like, stick it and, like, glue it onto th- their shells somehow.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:46:17

        It's protection?

    18. CHChase Hughes1:46:19

        Uh-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:46:19

        Ornaments?

    20. CHChase Hughes1:46:20

        M- maybe distraction. Maybe, like, a mating ornament. I don't know why they do it. Yeah, and they'll decorate their bodies with all kinds of crazy stuff.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:46:33

        Okay.

    22. CHChase Hughes1:46:33

        And they, they do that by hand, and it's not part of their body at all.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:46:38

        So that looks like it's picked up sea urchin spikes maybe.

    24. CHChase Hughes1:46:42

        And stuck it on somehow.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:46:43

        Okay.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:46:43

        If you go back-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:46:43

        Go back

    28. CHChase Hughes1:46:43

        ... to the search and go one to the right of that image. Right there. That guy found some Froot Loops or something down there o- on the, on the ocean.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:46:51

        [laughs]

    30. CHChase Hughes1:46:53

        So they just stick little barnacles and stuff all over their bodies, and we're kind of like this. We're, we're, we go through life and we're like, "You know what? I'm gonna... That guy did this one thing to protect himself. I'm gonna, I'm gonna stick that on."
21. 1:47:23 – 1:51:03

    The Best Ways to Process Emotion

    1. CWChris Williamson1:47:24

       How do you advise people to process emotions so that it doesn't get deposited into the bank account or used to withdraw from the bank account?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:47:31

       I think physicality is the best. There's a guy, his name is Dr. David Berceli, and he invented this thing called trauma re- well, discovered this thing called trauma release exercise, where it's been known that we go into these things called neurogenic tremors all the time, uh, where our body looks like, kind of like a little seizure, where there's little tremors going through your body. But if you watch, like, a polar bear get tranquilized by some researcher, and they, and they... It's, like, a paralytic, a tranquilizer. The polar bear is, like, laid out on the ground and, but he's conscious. Like, can you imagine now how terrifying? That's, like, worse than an alien abduction. That's like an alien, an abduction for us.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:48:13

       Hmm.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:48:14

       So this polar bear goes through trauma, and what is the first thing that happens? The, the, the anesthesia thing starts wearing off, and his body goes into these convulsions and shaking m- movements and big breaths, and it's all completely autonomic. He's not really consciously controlling any of it. He's just letting his body do what it does. Squirrels do the same thing. After an impala gets bit by a tiger on the neck-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:48:38

       Yes, I've seen zebras do the same thing.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:48:38

       Yeah, zebras. Um, and Robert Sapolsky wrote a book about a lot of this stuff, about how nature knows what to do. It doesn't suppress healing mechanisms. It's called, uh, Why Zebras Don't Get Ulcers. And, but they figured out that humans suppress this, this tremor mechanism.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:48:56

       Why do you think that is? To avoid being seen as strange by the people around us?

    8. CHChase Hughes1:49:00

       I-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:49:00

       This is a, a, a indication of weakness-

    10. CHChase Hughes1:49:02

        Absolutely

    11. CWChris Williamson1:49:02

        ... that I was bothered.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:49:03

        Yeah, I think you hit the nail perfectly on the head there. Like, there's some weird... Uh, if I jiggle around on the floor in front of the tribe, they're gonna think I'm sick. What if they throw me over the cliff like old Jimmy last year when he was sick, you know? And-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:49:15

        Well, if nothing else, even if they correctly identify it, they don't think that you've got leprosy or you've gone insane. What they do know is that your capacity has been breached.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:49:24

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:49:25

        Your, your nervous system's ability to withstand this was taken over the edge.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:49:32

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:49:32

        You over- you overclocked yourself, or you were overclocked by somebody else, which is an indication of weakness.

    18. CHChase Hughes1:49:37

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:49:37

        Hmm.

    20. CHChase Hughes1:49:37

        It's so true.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:49:38

        Hmm.

    22. CHChase Hughes1:49:39

        But he, he basically, he's not teaching you a technique. He's just helping you to find the switch in your body that you've been suppressing, like, your entire life, andWe had to do it after a deployment, uh, that I was on. I did 20 years in the military, so I did a bunch of deployments. But one of these deployments, we came back, it was rough, but we had to go through this trauma releasing exerc- it's a different... under a different brand name, like, um, than this, uh, Dr. Berceli. But it was m-m maybe the most profound emotional transformation I've ever made in my life, other than psychedelics. It's unbelievable. And it's... Your body knows how to do it. Every mammal on Earth, uh, does this automatically, and it is life-changing, and it's free. It's totally free. You can go on YouTube and learn how to do it, and it's-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:50:28

        Yeah

    24. CHChase Hughes1:50:28

        ... it's unbelievable. And it's... Every mammal does it. And during this lady's presentation to us when we got back from deployment, she says, "Raise your hand if you've ever seen a depressed squirrel." [laughs] Or a zebra. Like, a zebra doesn't get bit by a crocodile and go back to his tribe and be like, "God, I just had a shit day, and I need to curl up under that tree for, like, nine days, and people need to bring me food." That doesn't happen. Like, they're-- somehow they're over stuff, uh, a lot quicker than we get over stuff, even though we make more meaning about the situation than the, than the zebras

22. 1:51:03 – 1:57:05

    How Shame and Guilt Control Behaviour

    1. CHChase Hughes1:51:03

       do.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:51:03

       How do you come to think about the role of shame in people's lives?

    3. CHChase Hughes1:51:07

       I think shame has been institutionalized on purpose by many different, uh, places. And we learn as we're little kids, like, if I feel shame about something, I need to conceal it, and I've learned a new part of me that I can wall off and I don't need to show anybody. So if I'm ashamed about anything, it doesn't make... Shame doesn't make you a good person. And I think a lot of people think that if I feel ashamed about something, that makes me moral, that makes me good as a human being. It doesn't. It just ruins your life. It doesn't make you a good person.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:51:43

       Learned an interesting thing from Rob Henderson, where a book that he was reading taught somebody's guilt seems to be proportional to their perceived likelihood of being caught.

    5. CHChase Hughes1:52:02

       Right.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:52:02

       Someone's guilt-

    7. CHChase Hughes1:52:03

       Yeah

    8. CWChris Williamson1:52:03

       ... the amount of guilt that you feel tends to be proportional to how likely you perceive it that you're going to be caught for whatever you're guilty about.

    9. CHChase Hughes1:52:13

       Wow. That's really good.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:52:14

        Isn't that fascinating?

    11. CHChase Hughes1:52:15

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:52:16

        That our level of guilt for something that we know we can't be caught for is so much less. Now, obviously, there's a... the scales have a, a bunch of different things going on here. So on one side, there might be the severity of what you did. You know, you could, uh, kill somebody and immediately get them-- or watch them be eaten by an alligator whole or a python or something, and you go, "Well, there's no chance." But it's such a, a huge transgression of what your typical behavior would be that that's something that you would take very badly.

    13. CHChase Hughes1:52:43

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:52:43

        Or you could have something that's much smaller, but has a much higher likelihood of getting caught. You know, you threw chewing gum down, but you threw it down right at the teacher's feet, and you don't know if he saw or not, and that would be a big deal. And then there's sort of everything in between. Those are the two s- That's the spectrum of crime, by the way. There's chewing gum and killing, killing someone.

    15. CHChase Hughes1:53:00

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:53:01

        That's, that's the, that's... Those are the two ends. The Overton window of crime. And I, I just love that idea that the level of guilt that we feel about anything that we've done, you... it's not just the severity of whatever it is. It's not just your conscious comi- consciousness coming in saying like, "That was not your best self speaking or acting," or whatever. How likely is it that I think that I'm gonna be caught? And as that gets closer and closer and closer, your level of guilt increases.

    17. CHChase Hughes1:53:33

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:53:34

        Uh, you know, thinking about with the Epstein files, the day that the Epstein files came out.

    19. CHChase Hughes1:53:42

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:53:43

        What?

    21. CHChase Hughes1:53:44

        Uh, we saw a lot of people get real quiet while they were waiting to see what was released.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:53:50

        Hmm. Well, if you think about what that day must have been like for those people, horrible. You're, you're certainly not gonna chalk it up... If you're a zebra, you're going home and telling your, your family, "I had a shit day today. I got the equivalent of bit on the ass by an alligator, but I... it happened in the court of public opinion." Uh, however, in some ways, the, um, uh, concealment tax that was being paid, you know your name's in them.

    23. CHChase Hughes1:54:19

        Yes.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:54:19

        You know your name's in them. You know that there are being investigations and releases are happening. And yeah, I mean, you could hope... This is something else. I was having this conversation last night. You don't need karma to deliver spiritual justice, right? All that karma is is someone repeating their patterns and behaviors enough times until reality finally gives them what they deserve. So imagine that you're a bad person. You treat most people that you interact with poorly. Uh, you screw them over in one form or another, maybe the same way, maybe in different ways. The only way that you make it to the end of your life without that coming to the surface is by basically beating the odds, right?

    25. CHChase Hughes1:55:02

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:55:02

        You stacked the deck against yourself, and what you're hoping is that you can somehow sort of, you know, tiptoe Captain Sparrow dance your way through this minefield-

    27. CHChase Hughes1:55:13

        Yeah

    28. CWChris Williamson1:55:13

        ... and avoid all of the different tripwires and get to the other side and, "Oh, fuck, I did it."

    29. CHChase Hughes1:55:21

        Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:55:21

        And then you die or whatever. Um, that sense that a lot of people have of, "That person fucking... They're just desserts. Like, how the, how the f- like, how has nobody cottoned on to this thing that I think that I see about this person?" And maybe you're right. Let's assume that you're right about your character assessment about this person, that they're a bad person and that there's stuff should've gone to them. What someone is doing is basically stacking against... the, the, the deck against themselves. But presuming that you've got a relatively functioning conscience-That-
23. 1:57:05 – 2:06:44

    Why Overthinking Doesn’t Create Clarity

    1. CWChris Williamson1:57:05

       Has what we've spoken about to do with shame and childhood patterns related to the trauma triangle, is that all wrapped up inside of that?

    2. CHChase Hughes1:57:13

       I think, I think it might be.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:57:15

       Mm.

    4. CHChase Hughes1:57:15

       I don't know. I don't think we know shit about consciousness and all... Uh, there's so many people who have so much certainty that I would be embarrassed showing that level of certainty about, "Oh, this is exactly how the brain works." I've studied neuroscience for nine years. We have zero clue how the brain works. We don't know where memories are stored.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:57:36

       Mm.

    6. CHChase Hughes1:57:36

       We don't even know what they're made of. And, and like, they're doing all these experiments now that's showing that consciousness might be non-local. I think you've had a few people on.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:57:44

       Panpsychists.

    8. CHChase Hughes1:57:46

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:57:46

       Yeah. Yeah.

    10. CHChase Hughes1:57:47

        Um, it, it, it just looks like... It starts... That's starting to explain a whole lot of stuff that we were calling anomalies that just might not be an anomaly.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:57:56

        Mm.

    12. CHChase Hughes1:57:57

        And Rupert Sheldrake is, is one of these guys that's-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:57:59

        Friend of the show.

    14. CHChase Hughes1:58:00

        Yeah. Dude, I love that guy so much.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:58:04

        Morphic resonance is such a fucking cool idea, man. Like, it's... What's interesting to me, uh, stuff like the Danny Trejo thing is a good example of that, but that's story based, right? Stories stick with you for a good while. If you hear about a dude that was a famous cult leader and a guy that's a famous movie actor being in jail together, wearing a rope around his waist, getting loaded on heroin through hypnosis, are you ju- I, the, I, I'm... I'll forget my children's names before I forget that, right, on my deathbed.

    16. CHChase Hughes1:58:29

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:58:30

        Um, but the Sheldrake thing with the morphic resonance that dogs are able to detect when their owners are coming home even when they alter the vehicle and the time and the mode of transport and the person and they go to the window. The... Did you see the one about, um, is it s- starlings, uh, dunking their heads into glass milk bottles? Did you ever learn this one?

    18. CHChase Hughes1:58:55

        No.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:58:55

        This is fucking crazy.

    20. CHChase Hughes1:58:56

        Let me hear it.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:58:57

        So, um, there was a type of bird that existed, I want to say in, in the UK during World War II, uh, before World War II. And the glass milk bottles that would be put out by the milkman on everyone's front doorstep. Did that ever happen in the US?

    22. CHChase Hughes1:59:20

        Oh, yeah. I think before my time.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:59:21

        You used to have a milkman?

    24. CHChase Hughes1:59:22

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:59:22

        Do... Okay, that exists.

    26. CHChase Hughes1:59:24

        Even in, um, street though.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:59:25

        Okay. I've, I've... Dude, I don't know about this country. It's like three seconds old.

    28. CHChase Hughes1:59:28

        [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson1:59:28

        You know what I mean? I want a, I want a millennia-old country like mine. Anyway, I like this place. I spent too much time in a Costco this morning, and there was a glass bottle that you would leave out, and it would have a foil lid. And the foil coloring on the lid would be, uh, semi-skimmed, full fat, gold top, whatever. And, um, birds had realized that they could pierce the foil, 'cause it's only thin, and they could stick their beaks in and they could drink the top filtering of this thing. Uh, and you would often, apparently, because if you've ever put your finger into a Corona to shove a lime down, the weird sort of, fuck I'm stuck. Like you really need to wiggle it to get it out. And a lot of the time people would arrive at their front doorstep and just see an upended bird. St- like a Molotov cocktail, but it's got [laughs] a sparrow sticking out the top of-

    30. CHChase Hughes2:00:18

        [laughs]
24. 2:06:44 – 2:09:32

    Does Chase Actually Want Death Threats?

    1. CWChris Williamson2:06:44

       let's, let's, let's bring this one into land here 'cause this has been really, really fascinating. What's this new show where you told your team, "If we don't get death threats within the first six months, we're not doing our job"?

    2. CHChase Hughes2:06:55

       So I, uh, the origin of this is I took an Adderall one morning.

    3. CWChris Williamson2:07:02

       Great start to a day.

    4. CHChase Hughes2:07:03

       And, uh-

    5. CWChris Williamson2:07:05

       Go on

    6. CHChase Hughes2:07:05

       ... then I got distracted doing some work, and I was like, "Shit, I didn't take an Adderall," and I took another one, which I, I've never done. And so my brain was not prepared for this. And I also, uh, do a, a little daily microdose action. And all that mixed together, and I was just sitting there at my desk typing or going through emails or something, and I was like, "You know what?" Randomly I was like, "I need to start a TV station." Uh, and I did.

    7. CWChris Williamson2:07:33

       That does sound like the sort-

    8. CHChase Hughes2:07:34

       I-

    9. CWChris Williamson2:07:34

       ... of thing someone who's taken two tabs of Adderall and some mushrooms would come up with.

    10. CHChase Hughes2:07:37

        Yeah. Yeah, and I was like, "You know what? I could beat Fox. I could beat, I could beat mainstream news." So we built and own a television studio now, and we have a daily news show that's about to start coming out. And maybe by the time this is released we'll have a video out. Um, it's called Station One on YouTube. We have one or two videos out, but we're gonna start daily news, and we're also gonna, every, every day you'll get the news. But you'll also get how everything that you're, you're being shown as different stories are actually connected. All of the psyops layers with actual registers and receipts for every single thing of how the news is being, uh, used to frame a narrative. Uh, all of that will be made public, and then every single day on the news we'll tell you, "In the next 73, 72 hours, here's what to look out for. If you see these three words in a bill that Congress passes at, like, 2:00 AM, you need to watch out for this thing. If this-

    11. CWChris Williamson2:08:36

        Hmm

    12. CHChase Hughes2:08:36

        ... oil company, uh, invests in this one thing in the next four days, you need to watch out for this. This is probably gonna happen." So every single day it should feel, uh... And we follow the format of the president's daily b- uh, brief from the director of the CIA, and that's the daily news is like the president's daily brief exact format. Uh, and I think it's gonna be good. I think people are gonna like it, and there's no narrative. Uh, there's no left and right, uh, politics, which doesn't really exist. Uh, and I think it's, I think it's gonna be pretty cool.

    13. CWChris Williamson2:09:07

        Heck yeah. Chase Hughes, ladies and gentlemen. Chase, you're awesome, man. I'm looking forward to speaking to you next time.

    14. CHChase Hughes2:09:12

        Me too. Thanks, Chris.

    15. CWChris Williamson2:09:13

        All right. See you next time, everyone. Dude, fucking crushed it. So good.

    16. CHChase Hughes2:09:18

        Yeah, man. Appreciate it, brother. [upbeat music]

    17. CWChris Williamson2:09:20

        Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're gonna like this one even more. Go on, press it.

Episode duration: 2:09:32