Raw Truths From The Brink Of Death – Ben Askren

Chris Williamson 0:00 Welcome back to life, dude

Ben Askren 0:04 [laughs] Well, I've been, I've been living again for quite a while now. Um, June 28th was actually the day I got the transplant last year, so coming up on a year for that. Uh, I think, I believe I woke up on July 2nd or somewhere around there, or, you know, like came to in my own mind. Um, so yeah, it's been, it's been a process, but I'm here, I'm getting better, uh, and life's pretty good.

Chris Williamson 0:28 So one year ago from now you were really in the shit.

Ben Askren 0:31 Well, I just made a post yesterday because on June 6th, which was two days ago Saturday, I got inducted into the National Wrestling Hall of Fame. And when I went home or went back to the hotel with my wife, I said, "Didn't I get airlifted June 6th last year?" So last year on June 6th, I was in Vegas and I went up first hos- the first hospital, second hospital, and then we had some friends that came out that were... One was a doctor and one was a nurse, and they said, "You ain't g- He's not gonna make it to this hospital. We need to get him back to Milwaukee 'cause they have a good, uh, s- it's called CVICU, uh, cardiovascular intensive care unit." And they, they got me a flight. They put me on a plane, uh, took me all the way back. And I said to my wife, "Well, why was that such a bad day? 'Cause I don't remember. I was sleeping." [laughs] And she said to transport me they had to fully paralyze my body. Um, and then when I got back to Milwaukee, they put me on ECMO, and with ECMO there's o- I think there's only like a 40% chance you come off ECMO. A lot of people go on it don't come off it. So, uh, they were hoping I wouldn't have to do that. I did have to do that. So June 6th last year, although I don't remember any of it, it was quite eventful.

Chris Williamson 1:33 And then this year you got to celebrate, so it's, you know-

Ben Askren 1:36 Yes

Chris Williamson 1:36 ... it, it's full circle. For the people who don't know what we're talking about, could you, could you explain what's happened over the last 12 months?

Ben Askren 1:42 Yeah. Um, well, May, May 20th last year, uh, 2025, um, I went to the hospital. I actually went to the hospital on the day before also, May 27th. My back was hurting, just a bac- back pain. I thought it was a back spasm. That was it, you know? And on May 27th, I tested, uh, everything was normal. Did all the vitals and, and I told my wife, "See, I told you [laughs] it was just a back spasm." And the doctor gave me medicine for a back spasm and I went back to the hotel. We were at the Bitcoin conference. And it got worse, and the medicine did not work at all, which that's never happened. I've had, you know, a handful of other back spasms in my life and the medicine's really good. It just got worse and worse and worse. And then, you know, I was up most of the night trying to make it feel better. And when I woke up in the morning, so sometime in the middle of the night I'd finally fallen asleep. When I woke up in the morning it was a little bit later, and she had been videotaping me sleeping. And she had sent it to a few of her doctor friends and they said, "You need to get him to the hospital as soon as you can." So when I woke up, uh-

Chris Williamson 2:42 What was, what was happening while you were sleeping?

Ben Askren 2:44 I was, like, super, like, super fast and hard breathing, right? Um, and so when I woke up sh- my wife's like, "Hey, we're, we're going to the hospital." And I said, "Dude, you made me go to [laughs] you made me go to the hospital yesterday. I'm not going back to the hospital, damn it." Um, you know, "I, I got stuff I wanna do today. I don't wanna go to the hospital." And she's like, "No, you gotta go to the hospital." So eventually they convinced me to go to the hospital, and it was the same place as the day before. We went there, and I remember walking in, in the waiting room and then that's it. I don't remember anything. I woke up in July 2nd. I didn't know where I was. I didn't know why I was there. I don't remember anything. I was asleep for, I wanna say it was thir- I think it was 37 days, I believe.

Chris Williamson 3:24 So you tran- you transported from kinda being a bit irritated that you were back at the same hospital for what you thought might be a back spasm for the second time and your wife being a little bit overbearing-

Ben Askren 3:35 Yes

Chris Williamson 3:36 ... to now it's July and what the fuck am I... Oh, and I'm in a totally different, I'm in a totally different hospital now.

Ben Askren 3:43 Well, I woke up and it was, uh, what, you know... I, I say wake up. I was awake sometimes, but I, I, uh, to my recollection, I, I don't recall any, any of it. Nothing. And so the, when I, when I, like, wake up the first time or when I come to some type of cognitive understanding of what's going on-

Chris Williamson 3:58 Yeah

Ben Askren 3:58 ... um, it was in, it was the middle of the night. It was dark. I obviously quickly realized I was in a hospital and I started thinking, like, "How did I end up here? Why am I here?" I didn't remember going to Vegas. It was, "How am I here and why am I here?" And then I couldn't speak at all. And so at the [laughs] I, I don't even recall how it happened, but for some way I, you know, signaled to the nurse, like, "Why am I here? What am I doing?" [laughs] And they told me I had a double lung transplant and, you know, again, I couldn't talk and it was like, "Okay, why do I have a double lung transplant?" I have... I don't know. I have no idea what, how that would happen. I'm totally healthy. I've never smoked. I've never done anything. Um, and then eventually my wife came in the morning, whatever the, you know, the next morning or whatever, and she had documented everything, so it was like a day-by-day journal of, you know, June 2nd this happened, June 4th this happened. And I had to read through it and I was like, "Oh my God. What?" Like, how did this ever happen? Um, and yeah, so that was kinda my recollection of waking up and kinda figuring out

Ben Askren 5:01 what was going on.

Chris Williamson 5:02 So retrospectively, I, I know that you weren't awake to be able to work out this from a first person view.

Ben Askren 5:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:08 What... You go into the waiting room, and then what happens from there?

Ben Askren 5:12 Um, well, so, uh, I had a staph infection on my elbow. Um, I don't know if you've ever got one or not, but, you know, sometimes, like, I, I, in, all my life I've only had to get on an i- a antibiotic a singular time. Um, you know, you get a cut, you get a little infected. You put some antibacterial on there. You wash, you shower, you clean it up, and it goes away, and that was what happened to me. Like it, I had a little infection on my elbow. I washed, I showered, I soaped it, I antibacterial. And within a couple of days it w- it was gone and I didn't think much of it, you know? And then I made no connection, but about four days later my, my back was started hurting and I thought, "Okay, this is a back spasm." And everyone always says, "You would do it differently." And I said, "No, I wouldn't." How- whoever could guess, "Oh yeah, my back hurts because my body's eating my lungs from the inside." Like, no one's ever heard of that. That's totally ridiculous. So the staph got into my blood- And it turned into, uh, uh, necro- called, called necrotizing pneumonia, in which, uh, my body was essentially eating my lungs from the inside out. That was what the back pain was. So I dealt with that for about, uh, I think five days before I ended up in the hospital. And as and when I was in the hospital, it was, like, a really bad, like, sepsis and necrotizing pneumonia. Um, and yeah, so they, they tried doing all they could to kinda, like, save my lungs and, and keep me alive. And at some point it, it became the only way I was gonna stay alive was to have a, uh, lung transplant, which, you know, again, I wasn't awake for any of this. Um, and so I believe I was in the Milwaukee hospital for about three weeks before that happened, and then I got the lung transplant and, uh, I think I was still kinda, like, unconscious for about six more days after that. And then I woke up, and there I was.

Chris Williamson 6:58 Fuck me.

Ben Askren 6:59 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 6:59 Where do you get, where do you get lungs from?

Ben Askren 7:01 That's what I said. [laughs] Um, I... Well, I j- I don't know. Uh, I actually wrote the donor family. The donor family has not responded. Obviously, it was something like-

Chris Williamson 7:11 Is it two from the same person?

Ben Askren 7:13 Yes. Yep.

Chris Williamson 7:14 But you d- you can't, you can't mix and match two lungs.

Ben Askren 7:17 Oh, I actually think you c- Uh, no, I know you can because I talked to a guy in the hospital about it. You know, and that's one that's where, um, you think about life and you think about gratitude and you, and you never wanna take anything for granted. And I always think about the people I meet in the hospital now. Uh, this was a while ago now, probably four months ago, but I was in for one of my kinda routine checkups, and this, this guy comes up to me and, you know, I'm, I'm waiting to go inside the, you know, to meet the doctors. And so a lot of the sta- similar type people in a similar area, so he had a lung transplant. And, you know, I think, okay, I was, I was unconscious for 36 days and I was in the hospital for, I think it was 73 total or something, which is quite a long time, and it w- it, it wasn't fun. [laughs] But then this guy was in the hospital for nine months, and he was sick, and he got a double lung transplant, and then almost immediately, one of the two lungs rejected. I don't know why or how. I'm not a medical doctor. I can't tell you what happened. And he got a different lung from a different person, and he is now living with two new lungs from two different people. So I always, I always try to reflect on, yes, my situation was tough, but it could always be tougher, and at the end of the day, I could always not be here, so I'm quite grateful for what happened.

Chris Williamson 8:27 Where do they... H- how do the lungs come out?

Ben Askren 8:31 They cut you right... I don't know if you guys can see this, but right there.

Chris Williamson 8:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Askren 8:34 They, they split you right in half. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:36 So they're not taking it from, like, under... They're not reaching under the ribcage and pulling it down. Are they cracking the ribcage open?

Ben Askren 8:42 You know, you know what, Chris? I've never had the balls to go look exactly how they do it.

Chris Williamson 8:47 No way.

Ben Askren 8:48 No, I don't wanna-

Chris Williamson 8:49 You just didn't wanna know?

Ben Askren 8:50 I don't... It's called the... Well, I mean, you can go, go, go look it up if you want. It's called the clam stellin- s- clam shell incision is what it's called. Um, I can see exactly where I've been cut. I know what it feels like. Um, but no, I, I've never had the balls to, uh, go look up and see exactly how they open you up.

Chris Williamson 9:07 Oh, golly. I guess it's natural-

Ben Askren 9:08 I feel like that'll gross me out a little too much. [laughs]

Chris Williamson 9:10 Yeah, maybe. Maybe, I suppose so. I guess what's crazy is, uh, like, they're gonna have... They have to reattach... It's like, it's like basically plumbing. It's human plumbing. You're, like, reattaching-

Ben Askren 9:19 Yeah

Chris Williamson 9:19 ... or human AC, AC ducting maybe more accurately. It's like, oh, there's a pipe that comes down. We've gotta get rid of this pipe. That pipe needs to be reconnected. Uh-

Ben Askren 9:27 Yeah

Chris Williamson 9:27 ... I mean, I don't know how... Again, if you haven't done your research, you haven't done your research. I wanna know how... When you're removing somebody's lungs, I need to know how they keep you breathing, 'cause you need-

Ben Askren 9:37 Uh, yeah

Chris Williamson 9:38 ... oxygen to k- keep you fucking going. But there's, uh, there has to be-

Ben Askren 9:41 I mean-

Chris Williamson 9:41 ... a moment when there's no lungs, or there's a moment-

Ben Askren 9:44 Yeah, yeah, no, there does

Chris Williamson 9:45 ... there's a moment when there's four lungs. There's one of two choices. They either attach-

Ben Askren 9:49 No

Chris Williamson 9:49 ... both at the same time and sw- switch one out.

Ben Askren 9:52 Yeah. You know what? I don't know the answer to this. I should know the answer. I do know, I'll tell you, this is gross. They said, the doctor did say it was the, uh, worst lung transplant she's ever seen. Because so much of my tissue died, it had, like, uh, essentially she said, like, stick like glue to the walls of my ribs and stuff like that, so they had to, like, really scrape all the old lungs off the inside of my chest cavity.

Chris Williamson 10:17 'Cause they were kinda decomposing inside of you.

Ben Askren 10:19 That, that's what she said. So she said it was, uh, it was one of the worst that they'd ever seen. Uh, it took... I, I don't remember what the time was now, 'cause I was half unconscious for a lot of the first-

Chris Williamson 10:29 Mm

Ben Askren 10:29 ... time I was awake. But she said it took them quite a while to actually clear it out and then, you know, get the new ones in. So you know what? I don't know how I was breathing at that point

Ben Askren 10:38 in time.

Chris Williamson 10:38 Do people have any idea where this comes from? Is it, it j- randomly onsets? Is it a virus? Do you get it by-

Ben Askren 10:45 Yeah

Chris Williamson 10:45 ... being on mats, or what?

Ben Askren 10:48 Well, I think I got the original, original staph infection, but to the point I made earlier, like, it, it cleared up and it was no big deal, and it wasn't like I had the flu or I was sick or I was coughing or none, none of these things whatsoever. Um, and you know, the Kyle Busch thing that happened, that was a couple weeks back, and it was weird. It was almost to the day of when mine happened the year prior. Um, sounded very, very similar to what I, what I went through and, uh, you know, I have not grilled the doctor really, really hard on why, why exactly did this happen or how did this happen or, or that kind of stuff. I guess I woke up and I said, "Well, this is my new reality. How do I, how do I get better?" So I grilled him a lot on how, how do I get better-

Chris Williamson 11:31 Mm

Ben Askren 11:31 ... uh, but I haven't grilled him on how did it happen.

Chris Williamson 11:34 That's a really interesting mindset. I-

Ben Askren 11:36 Yeah

Chris Williamson 11:37 ... I guess it's, it, it's really only important for you to understand what happened insofar as it informs what you can do now to improve.

Ben Askren 11:46 Yeah. And, uh, you know, what happened was, I think, probably something that's extreme- extremely rare. Um, you know, I guess I could go back and ask him. Uh, and honestly, part of me thinks, and, and this is just me judging from what my wife said, 'cause my wife was obviously awake and talking to them all, and she did a great job of ... trying to connect everyone that could possibly help me. Um, but it was one of those things where they were having a hard time figuring out how I got that sick. You know, she brought up the cut on my elbow. She knew about that. But then they were asking all kinds of different questions on, "Well, was he doing this or was he doing that?" Like, they, they... I think they thought, "Hey, this doesn't make sense either," or, you know, also.

Chris Williamson 12:28 Hmm. Okay. So you wake up, you come round.

Ben Askren 12:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:32 What next?

Ben Askren 12:33 Man, so the first, uh... You know what's really funny? You think you're, you're, like, fully conscious, if you will, once I woke up. And, you know, now I look back on the first, I don't know, we'll say, we'll say 10 days to two weeks, and I was like, "Holy shit." I was out of my mind. I mean, now I get, like, there's this one, two, or three-day period where I very vividly remember. I do remember some things that for sure happened, 'cause I went back and I, I crossed referenced it with people that were there, and I said, "Hey, did this actually happen?" But then, um, like, I thought I got transported to this hospital that was on the lake, like half a mile from my house, and there's no hospital there. That didn't exist. That was only in my mind for multiple days. Uh, and I, I know I kept threatening, I kept threatening the nurses that I was gonna walk home, 'cause I was just down the road from my house.

Chris Williamson 13:22 [laughs]

Ben Askren 13:23 [laughs] Where I, I couldn't even walk. I couldn't walk, you know? It's like the thought of even walking home-

Chris Williamson 13:27 It's a lie, it's a lie from every different direction.

Ben Askren 13:30 Yeah. So, you know, that, the first couple weeks, like, um, you know, I think I was on so many drugs. I did get off pain meds relatively quick, but, um, between the rest of the stuff I was on, and then they call it, like, delirium because you don't sleep enough in the ho- you know, in the hospital. Um, yeah, I had so many wild thoughts. Um, you know, positive thing, I had a lot of friends visiting me, and so that's like, I know some of those things that I thought happened did happen, 'cause I said, "Hey, were, were you there when X, Y, or Z happened?" And they said, "Yeah." So I had a lot of friends visiting me. My wife visited me almost every day. My mom visited a lot, my dad. Um, so yeah, just kinda like waking up and figuring out how to do everything again, 'cause I couldn't walk, I couldn't feed myself. You know-

Chris Williamson 14:10 Hmm

Ben Askren 14:10 ... it's, it's the long list of things you... I mean, I pretty much couldn't do anything by myself.

Chris Williamson 14:14 What was the lowest point that your health got to when you woke up? Was it immediate, and was it relatively uphill from there?

Ben Askren 14:21 Yeah. Um, yeah, I didn't really have anything hugely negative. I guess right before I woke up, so right after, a day or two, right? Um, so not right before, like minute-wise. Um, I guess I spiked a really bad fever, and they didn't know why, and that was scary to everyone, including my wife. Uh, but what, a- as I woke up, um, yeah, everything was like, I guess it moved in a positive direction, probably not nearly as fast as I thought. Um, you know, a lot of lung transplant patients, they're on the list for a long time, and their condition is not necessarily, like, immediately life-threatening.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 14:55 Like, eventually it would kill them, but it might take many years. So they're actually in kind of, like, a lot better shape than I was, where I was, like, ne- near, very near death. I lost, like, 60 pounds, for example, of, you know, muscle while I was... Yeah, muscle. Uh, body weight, but [laughs] mostly muscle, uh, while I was in the hospital. Um, so when I woke up, it did mostly get better. There was a lot of things like, I don't know if you know what chest tubes are, but it took me forever to get my chest tubes out. I was the first lung transplant patient that they sent home with a chest tube in, [laughs] because I was like, "You gotta let me go. You gotta let me go."

Chris Williamson 15:29 Wow.

Ben Askren 15:30 And then, uh, yeah, unfortunately it got infected. I ended up back in the hospital for two weeks. Um, I don't think of any fault of my own. I think it just happened and, you know, then I got stuck there again for a while. But, uh, yeah, it was a process. It took a long time. Um, I didn't start walking on my own for, I think it was roughly two months. Um, you know, and then even at that point, like, you know, walking on my own meant, like, I go four steps and I'm holding onto a counter, and then I go, you know, three more ste- You know, it's like, it's not really, I'm not, like, getting around.

Chris Williamson 15:59 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 16:00 Um, yeah, and then it was just a process. And it was like, once I became more capable, it was like, "Okay, hey, today I wanna try to walk for eight minutes. Walking for eight minutes is my goal." And then once I got the hang of that, then it's 10 minutes, then it's 12 minutes, and then I, you know, kind of just keep building up, and then it's, "Okay, now I'm gonna try to do some squats," which was... You know, in the beginning, I couldn't get myself off the toilet. I had to have, literally have someone help me get up. Um, yeah, so that was the process and, uh, it's still a process where I'm, I'm actually getting better at, I feel like still quite a rapid rate, and I'm 11, over 11 months out.

Chris Williamson 16:33 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 16:35 Yeah.

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Chris Williamson 17:30 What was your main emotion, like, when you came back round, o- once you were a little bit less delirious?

Ben Askren 17:38 Yeah. Pr- probably flabbergast. I mean, I still think about it sometimes. Still I wake up and think about, like, "How did that happen? Like, I have a lung transplant. Like, I never smoked anything in my life. Like, how does someone like me end up with a lung transplant?" So I think, like, uh, that would probably be the main emotion of, like, "How did this happen? This is nuts." Um, and then probably the second one after that would be like, "Okay, what have I gotta do?" 'Cause again, this is my new reality. I can't change it, so I might as well make the best of it. So what is it that I need to do? And I've probably spent, [laughs] you know, I can't tell you how many hours since it's been 11 months researching- What do I do about this problem? What do I do about that problem? And just kinda like-

Chris Williamson 18:17 Heavy, heavy ChatGPT user

Ben Askren 18:20 ... for, for real. ChatGPT, if you ask my questions, uh, you get a lot of information, and then I usually use the information, I bounce it off my doctors and I say, "Hey, here's what I'm gathering. What do you think about this?" And ChatGPT's right, I don't know, probably say 70, 80% of the time. Like, it's, it's pretty good, you know? There's a few things where it kinda really gets it wrong, um, so I always obviously cross re- cross-reference first.

Chris Williamson 18:43 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 18:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:44 Okay. So I, you know, I... The flabbergasted thing's so funny. I've got this... I've always had this thought in my mind, like, I've come off a, a moped in Bali. I've been in a couple of, like, pretty big car accidents.

Ben Askren 18:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:54 Like, a few things as sort of shock, kinetic incident-

Ben Askren 18:59 Yeah

Chris Williamson 18:59 ... or whatever. And you're right, one of the main emotions is surprise. You're like, "This isn't-

Ben Askren 19:05 [laughs] Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:06 "This can't be, this can't be happening." And I was thinking to myself, I wonder how many people have died, you know, from, from, uh, something horrendous or accidental. Uh, someone got shot, you know, in crossfire. Somebody got shot-

Ben Askren 19:19 Yeah

Chris Williamson 19:19 ... and they just feel the thing go through them, and they look down and they're like, "Have I been... Oh, surely I haven't been f-..." And that's it. And your last thought isn't-

Ben Askren 19:28 Yeah

Chris Williamson 19:28 ... you know, the, the movie lying on the ground, looking up, telling your last rites, explaining your insights from, li- It's just, "Did I get fucking shot? Holy shit."

Ben Askren 19:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:40 "I, uh, uh..." And then it's done. And it's the same with you. It's, you know, the-

Ben Askren 19:43 Yeah

Chris Williamson 19:43 ... the main insight, the main emo- Was it you come back around, and were you fearing for your... Do you see the, the beauty of existence? It's, uh, I, I was largely, uh, fucking surprised, dude. That was my main-

Ben Askren 19:57 Yeah

Chris Williamson 19:57 ... main sensation.

Ben Askren 19:58 I, I would say that, you know, how did, like, why am I here? How did this happen?

Chris Williamson 20:03 Mm.

Ben Askren 20:03 And surprising it. And, uh, that was kinda, like, me piecing it together for the first, you know, handful of days. And then the other one was, what happened while I was asleep, right? [laughs] Like, I've been asleep for 37 days.

Chris Williamson 20:16 What's the Bitcoin-

Ben Askren 20:16 Like-

Chris Williamson 20:16 What's the Bitcoin price at, please? What's the Bitcoin price at, please?

Ben Askren 20:18 Ah, it w- it was, it was good at that point in time.

Chris Williamson 20:21 [laughs]

Ben Askren 20:22 Um, I, I actually missed a whole bunch of really, really important wrestling events in, uh, in late May and early June. Uh, you know, so there was, you know, catching up on all that 'cause I was not awake for a single day of June. Um, and then, you know, going through the kind of order of events of what happened to me and, and, you know, there was, there was a bunch of really amazing things like, um, pe- so many people supported, um, either through prayer or helping my family in some way, shape, or form, or meals. 'Cause, you know, my wife is then... Obviously, there's not a father in the household 'cause I'm in the hospital. Uh, my wife is spending a large portion of her time at the hospital with me.

Chris Williamson 20:59 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 21:00 Um, so, you know, my kids are all on summer break. It's not even like they go to school, so, you know, who, who's gonna take care of them and who can help out with them? So usually my wife and my mom and my dad would kinda, like, uh, alternate who's at the hospital, but then we had a whole bunch of friends and family helping out with our kids and stuff. And, uh, we tried to keep it as normal as possible for them. You know, you don't want them at home thinking every day, "Hey, my dad might die." Like-

Chris Williamson 21:21 Mm-hmm

Ben Askren 21:21 ... you don't want that. So we, you know, we tried to tell them, "Hey, he..." Well, not... I didn't do shit. [laughs] Um, my wife tried to tell them, "Hey, he's sick and he's at the hospital," and, you know, kinda leave it a little bit vague and open-ended like that.

Chris Williamson 21:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:36 So I guess, you know, you look across at, at somebody that's had a career as an athlete that, that's over- overcome lots of challenges and difficulty in training sessions from being a kid to being a teenager to a young athlete to a veteran athlete in all these different sports, wrestling and MMA and da, da, da, da, da, boxing.

Ben Askren 21:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:55 How much of that were you able to draw on when it came to recovery-

Ben Askren 22:01 All of it

Chris Williamson 22:01 ... and resilience?

Ben Askren 22:02 All of it. 100%. I mean, um, you know, because the, the main thing is, I mean, it's been, as I said, it's been 11 months. I probably felt really good for, [laughs] for a handful of those days, you know? Like, you know, even today, uh, I'll just say today, I'm 11 months out, I'm having a pretty good day. But, you know, for a while before the show actually, um, you know, it's like my breathing just wasn't as good. Sometimes I don't know if it's the allergies or I don't know what the issue is. It just feels weird sometimes, you know? Um, and then obviously earlier on it was, [laughs] it was a lot more things than that. It wasn't, wasn't only that. So the amount of days I've felt really good since then has been very limited. And so it's, you know, even on the days where you don't feel good, are you gonna get up and do something? Because if you just sit on the couch, you're, you're not gonna get better. And so even on the days when you don't feel good, maybe you're not gonna do as much as you had planned, but you're still gonna do something, and that's kinda, you know, where, where I was at for a long time. And, you know, now it's like I feel mostly pretty good. There's, you know, there'll be a little something here and there pretty much every single day, but it's like, okay, well, if I don't feel good at 10:00 AM, I'm gonna go get my workout at 2:00 PM or so. You know, like, I'm gonna... But I am gonna work out, and I am gonna train, and I'm gonna do my breathing exercises, and I'm gonna, you know, this handful of other medical things that I have to do, I'm gonna do them every day. I'm not gonna miss it. Um, so I've been very disciplined and regimented in that, and obviously that came from my, my life as an athlete, uh, being very disciplined, very regimented in that. Uh, it just crossed over kind of exactly.

Chris Williamson 23:33 What did your weight get down to? What was the smallest, the lowest weight?

Ben Askren 23:36 The lo- lowest was one- 138, so I was, like, skin and bones.

Chris Williamson 23:40 And what did you fight at?

Ben Askren 23:42 I fought at 170, but I was, uh... I got, I'll be hon- I got on some TRT, so I got a little bit bigger.

Chris Williamson 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 23:48 My normal walking weight was probably, uh, you know, when, when I was fighting, 185-ish, plus or minus a few pounds.

Chris Williamson 23:55 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 23:55 And then as I retired, I was probably, you know, 195-ish, somewhere, somewhere in there. So-

Chris Williamson 24:00 Best part of 50%

Ben Askren 24:01 ... if I was at-

Chris Williamson 24:01 Best part of 50%.

Ben Askren 24:02 Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, quite, quite, quite the drawdown in weight. Um, and it was just like I said... I mean, I don't, I don't... My wife has pictures. It was skin and, skin and bones really is kinda what I was.

Chris Williamson 24:14 Is that because you're not moving and not consuming any calories other than what they need to keep you alive? Is that why?

Ben Askren 24:20 Um, I, I think they're not mo- Well, I, you know, I've never looked all the way to this. I got some good guesses. Number one, you're not moving. I mean, I told you, like, they literally paralyzed me. But there was other times when, um, I would wake up and I would just, like... I, I don't recall this, but I would not be happy about the fact that I'm... Numb all of my arms, you know? I would try to, like, move, and then that would, uh, spike my heart rate, and then that would cause my breathing capacity, and I remember my, uh, what is it called? Oxygenation or whatever to-

Chris Williamson 24:47 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Ben Askren 24:47 ... that to drop, right? And that was really problematic. So I guess for a while they even had me, me strapped down so I couldn't really move at all. Um, yeah, so that was kind of the, that was kind of the, the deal with that. So, uh, and then I do believe prednisone, which I'm still on, and so I'll be on for the rest of my life probably, unfortunately, um, I believe that has some, uh, some capacity of where it eats your muscles a little bit.

Chris Williamson 25:13 What's that do? That's a-

Ben Askren 25:14 Prednisone?

Chris Williamson 25:15 Yeah.

Ben Askren 25:16 It's some- I don't know exactly which part of the immunosuppression it is, but it's an immunosuppressant. So with the, with a transplant patient, um, your body will see the, uh, transplanted organ as a foreign body, and it will attack it, so they need to essentially tamp down your immune system kind of permanently. Otherwise it'll-

Chris Williamson 25:34 Which is why flight for you and being in different places is more dangerous, because you don't have an immune sy- If you had an immune system that could protect you from getting sick, it would also be the same immune system that would attack your new lungs.

Ben Askren 25:46 Yep, 100%. So I, I, you know, I try to stay out of areas where there's a lot of people where I don't, like, have, I don't think just so, control of the area of what my surroundings are.

Chris Williamson 25:54 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 25:54 Unfortunately, I wear a mask a lot, which is, you know, I, that's kinda-

Chris Williamson 25:57 COVID again, baby.

Ben Askren 25:59 I made fun of the mask people for sure-

Chris Williamson 26:01 [laughs]

Ben Askren 26:01 ... and now I'm a mask, I'm a mask person. So yes. [laughs] That's, that's no good. Um-

Chris Williamson 26:07 Yeah.

Ben Askren 26:07 Yeah, but it is getting better. I'm, I'm coming down, like, uh, the levels of immunosuppression you're on. As you get further out and you get healthier, they, they do come down quite a bit, so you, you kinda hit a bounce back. So I've gotten, you know, for example, the last couple weeks I've gotten, uh, lower on my, you guys will... posaconazole and tacrolimus. I mean, that's fun talking about medicine, but I come down on those a little bit. So, uh, that means, you know, my energy and my immunosuppression go up, and I think, uh, you know, my, my year anniversary is coming up in about three weeks and I'll probably, I'll hopefully get to go down even a little more potentially.

Chris Williamson 26:40 Unreal. Okay. What, um... I'm interested in what matters to you more or less now than it did before.

Ben Askren 26:50 Yeah. Um, you know what? I, I, I said this, uh, you know, if I would've died, uh, when I went to the hospital, nurse had walked in the hospital, I don't remember anything. If I would've died there, which I ca- came pretty close to, um, I had a great life. Like, I really got to do what I love for, uh, for a living in coaching wrestling, running the wrestling academies. I think it's very meaningful work in that you're helping the next generation of young person not only get better at wrestling but get better at life. Um, I love my wife. I have a great family. So I, I was really lucky in that I was... it didn't take me to die to figure out that, oh, I have a bunch of misguided priorities. Like, I think my priorities were, were pretty good. I was pretty, you know, reflectively, 'cause I can reflect on, hey, if I would've died, what do I think about what I had done to that point? Um, so I felt really good about that. I do think I became maybe, um, more patient, um, have more gratitude for sure, and that's, you know, I don't think that was a category maybe I was lacking in prior, but I think maybe more, I feel even more strongly.

Chris Williamson 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 27:58 Um, I became a Christian, which, uh, I would say prior I was kinda Christian adjacent. Like, I went to church for 16 years or so, but it just, you know, it didn't kinda click all the way. Um, so that would be, you know, a, probably a big change, I would say. So kind of those things, but I wa- I was proud of the life I was living prior to this, and I think all the positive things have just been kind of, uh, ramped up and I think... I guess, I think one other one that I would mention there is, you know, I, I invested in some businesses, um, and I, I like all the people who are running them, but it, if it took my time, e- even if it was just, hey, I meet, I meet with the founder once a month or whatever. If it took my time and I wasn't, like, passionate about it, I said... I asked a few different people, like, "Hey, can, can I get out?" Like-

Chris Williamson 28:45 Mm.

Ben Askren 28:46 "I'll ma- I'll make a deal, whatever, you know, whatever you feel is fair. Give me what's fair," and I just, I just wanna take a few more things off of my plate. Um, and I, I kinda feel strongly about that, and, you know, I get some offers to do things now and I'm just like, is this what I really, really, really 100% wanna do with my life? Is this worth the time away from my kids and my family? And if the answer is no, then I generally choose not to do it.

Chris Williamson 29:08 Have you seen Peaky Blinders, the series?

Ben Askren 29:11 No, I haven't, but I, I know... A bunch of my wrestlers are really big fans of it, so I've heard references, but I have never watched it.

Chris Williamson 29:17 Really cool BBC series, and, uh, in it, the main guy and his brother, they nearly die at the Battle of the Somme in World War I, and-

Ben Askren 29:26 Uh-huh

Chris Williamson 29:26 ... the, I think they're called clay kickers, so they dig tunnels to try and get into the enemy, uh, trench from underneath as opposed to going over the top, and sometimes they, the two tunnels cross over each other-

Ben Askren 29:39 Right

Chris Williamson 29:39 ... and then they have fights inside of the fucking tunnels. It's crazy. And, um-

Ben Askren 29:43 It is crazy

Chris Williamson 29:45 ... he, uh, him and his brother basically nearly died at the Battle of the Somme, and they've got this line where they, they sort of turn to each other and say, "Everything after that was extra."

Ben Askren 29:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:55 "Everything after that was extra." And it kinda sounds like that's how you see this period now, that I was-

Ben Askren 30:02 Yeah

Chris Williamson 30:02 ... I was happy. I mean, I didn't wanna die. It would've been optimal for me to have not died, and I'm glad that I didn't, but had I have done, I'd lived a pretty good life up until then.

Ben Askren 30:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:11 But even though I'd lived a pretty good life, there's still some adjustments that I want to make in order to learn the lessons about prioritizing my time and what I was gonna miss most now that I've got... now that this is extra.

Ben Askren 30:24 Yeah, no, uh, yeah, that's pretty, that's pretty accurate with, uh, with how I feel and how I view it, and I wanna make the most of the extra. And you know what? The statistics on lung transplants, now I don't necessarily know that they apply to me for a variety of reasons, which we can go, go through if you'd like to. It's kinda boring. But, uh, the median life expectancy is only six and a half years, uh, which isn't long. Um, I don't think that's gonna apply to me fully because a lot of them are older, unhealthy people who are-

Chris Williamson 30:52 What, you mean an ex-professional athlete who didn't get it because he was smoking and was like in the midst of some of the best fucking health of his life?

Ben Askren 31:00 Yes. Yeah. So, so you get it. So, uh, the actually, the longest living person post double lung transplant is 38 years, so that's kinda my goal. Uh, is 39 [laughs] at least 39. Um, but yeah, ev- everything now is extra and it's kinda reformatted me. So the number one thing I, I love to do is my brother and I have wrestling academies. Um, we have nine of them now in the state of Wisconsin. But the very favorite part of that is actually coaching the athletes. Um, and so, you know, that's the thing I wanna spend the most time on, uh, from a, a work perspective. Um, and then obviously, you know, with my, my family and doing that type of thing. And it's one of those that was weird because, you know, I never really thought twice about it, but you know, part of the wrestling academy thing is, you know, you travel on a lot of weekends sometimes to go coach kids. And I, I, I, like I said, it's this weird thing 'cause I love it and I miss it a lot and, um, but then it's like, well, I realized how much I was kinda missing at home or when my wife had to be a, you know, essentially a single mother if I go to a big tournament. Now, it's not saying I'm never gonna do that again. I am gonna do it. I'll probably just do it a little bit less than I had previously, um, so to make sure I'm around for more of my kids' stuff. And then obviously now my daughter's 13 and she really likes wrestling, so there's gonna be a, probably a good opportunity for me to spend a bunch of time with her too, that. Um, but yeah, so definitely not gonna waste my time on things that, that I don't love and that I'm not really passionate about. Um, and that's kinda probably the biggest thing.

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Chris Williamson 33:29 at checkout. Has your definition of success changed since that?

Ben Askren 33:33 Um, you know, [laughs] I've been thinking about this a lot actually, 'cause I don't know if you, if you saw or heard, but I'm, I'm wrestling next month. Um, and the reason I was wrestling was they told me, so I, I actually work for RAF and it's going tremendously well, and one of my life goals, and this is something where it's like I'm not gonna work for RAF forever, um, because it's not the one thing I wanna do, but one of my life goals was to start a legitimate professional wrestling organization in America that could run on its own and give athletes the opportunity to compete as professionals. RAF is doing a freaking amazing job. I mean, they're, they're doing better, I should say we are doing better than I ever could imagine this quickly. It's fascinating. Um, but when they told me they're coming to my hometown on my birthday, something spoke to me.

Chris Williamson 34:19 [laughs]

Ben Askren 34:20 Right? It's like, okay, I, I gotta get out there and I gotta, I gotta make it happen. Um, and so that's kinda been a really big driver for me is just to... And a big part of it is me helping other people and I, I, listen, I get messages pretty much every single day on Instagram at this point of, "Hey, your journey has inspired me." Um, and I think I was giving... Sorry, I'm giving a very long-winded answer, but I think that's okay on this podcast. [laughs] But, so your journey inspired me. I've been saying the same things for 15 years, but I think, you know, when I'm on top, right, so I'm winning MMA titles and I'm, we got the best wrestling academy in America, I think people, it resonates with people one way and then they see you dying and on, on your deathbed and trying to climb out of this hole and you're saying the exact same things, I think it resonates and motivates in a different type of way. Not this guy doesn't just talk about it, this guy is about it, right? He, he understands what is, what adversity is. He understands what hardship is and when he had met adversity and hardship, he reacted the exact same way that he said he would. So I'm not just talking about it, I am about it. Um, so me being able to climb my way out of this hole and live a, I will say, relatively normal life, you know-

Chris Williamson 35:33 Mm-hmm

Ben Askren 35:33 ... 'cause it's never gonna, it's never gonna be all the way back to normal, but as close to normal as possible, um, I think that's very inspiring for people. And, uh, the, so then, then my thought on that was, uh, I don't know how you feel about this guy. He's very controversial, but RFK, um, whether he comes up or comes down in your head.

Chris Williamson 35:52 Um, I, I've been to dinner with him. He was a nice guy.

Ben Askren 35:55 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:55 Like, he's got some, he's got some wacky beliefs-

Ben Askren 35:57 Yeah

Chris Williamson 35:57 ... but he's also managed to get the food pyramid to be the right way round for the first time in fucking American history.

Ben Askren 36:02 Hey, hey, there we go.

Chris Williamson 36:02 You know? It's, it's-

Ben Askren 36:03 Yeah

Chris Williamson 36:03 ... same as everybody.

Ben Askren 36:04 So I would think, well, one of the things I think about him is this guy has an immense amount of courage and fearlessness, and I, I say this to people. I say, think about if you grew up and you watched your father be murdered and you watched your uncle be murdered, and you still had the courage to put yourself in the line of fire, right? 'Cause there's a lot of people who don't like him right now. And you, you watched that happen to your father and your, your uncle, and you still are willing to have the courage to do that. That, that's amazing. I don't, I don't care what you think about the rest of what he says. That is, that's very powerful. And he always references, uh, Sisyphus, right? Where the guy ... rolls the boulder up the hill only for it to roll down every single day. And then he starts over, and then, you know, the kinda message of it to me is that there's something very powerful in just showing up and having a great attitude and working hard every single day, even if you're maybe not gonna get the fruits of your labors at the end of the day, right? [laughs] 'Cause every day the, the boulder rolls back down, and he shows up and he works again every single day. And for most people, um, they're not gonna end up without any fruits of their labor, right? Uh, so, you know, they, they roll the boulder up the hill, it's generally gonna go somewhere, and they may not get every single thing they want in life, but they're gonna... If you do that, you wake up with a great attitude and you work pretty hard every day, you're gonna end up with a pretty good life that you're pretty proud of.

Chris Williamson 37:23 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 37:23 Um, so I think about that a lot.

Chris Williamson 37:25 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:26 Why do you think wrestling produces such mentally tough people compared to a lot of other sports?

Ben Askren 37:30 [laughs] Uh, I think it's the best. Uh, I think it's... Uh, I speak on this topic a lot. Um, I may be biased 'cause I run wrestling academies, but I think there is no greater impact on a child's life, uh, than wrestling. I think it, wrestling is a microcosm of life. Um, I think there's a few qualities that maybe you don't get from wrestling, but most of them you do. Um, and that is you are gonna have hardship, you are gonna have sacrifice. If you're gonna lead any type of meaningful life, it's not gonna be sunshine and rainbows the entirety of the time. And so, um, you know, going through wrestling, it's a level of humility, uh, because you're never gonna be the best one in the room. And, and if you're the best one, one in that room, [laughs] you're gonna go find another room that you're not the best in. And it's not like, "Hey, you're not the best, go sit on a bench and go watch everyone else." It's like, "No, you're not the best. Now you're gonna get your face rubbed in the mat [laughs] by someone who's better than you, and they're gonna force you to be humble." Um, so I think, you know, uh, hard work, discipline, perseverance, 'cause you, you're inevitably gonna get knocked down and have times of hardship, uh, and adversity. Um, uh, self-reliance is a big one. It, it's only you out there. There's no one else to save you. There's no team. There's no nothing else. Humility, uh, I, I just think these, all these qualities, uh, can make a really, really well-rounded human being.

Chris Williamson 38:49 Mm. Yeah, I, I mean, I look at a lot of other combat sports, a lot of other sports in general, and everybody learns something, especially the consistency-

Ben Askren 38:59 Yep

Chris Williamson 39:00 ... the routine. But maybe it's a selection effect. Maybe it's just the, the sorts of parents that put their kids in, or the sorts of young guys and girls that decide that they're gonna go into wrestling, they just... Whatever it is about making that decision selects for a particular cohort of people that are kind of stubborn and routinized and insane. But-

Ben Askren 39:22 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 39:23 ... I don't know. There's, I... Look at, look at even the UFC-

Ben Askren 39:26 Yeah

Chris Williamson 39:26 ... which is, uh, you know, the ultimate-

Ben Askren 39:27 I can speak to that for sure. I'll tell, I'll tell you on that one for sure 'cause I obviously trained at a mixed martial arts gym for a long time, uh, and we run wrestling academy. The expectation of the parent coming into those two different places is totally different, right? So the expectation of a parent coming into Askren Wrestling Academy is, "Hey, I want my kid to learn how to wrestle. I want them to learn some discipline and some hard work and get a little tougher. And you know what? If they do really well, maybe they'll win a state title or get a college scholarship," or something to that effect. And in MM- MMA gym, so many times it's, uh, "Oh, my kid, he's really tough and scrappy. He's gonna be the next star on TV and make a whole bunch of money."

Chris Williamson 40:02 Mm.

Ben Askren 40:02 Um, and so right, the expectation of the two different parents doing the two different things is, is immense. Um, and I, I think that's probably a, a, a big part of this is what I would guess.

Chris Williamson 40:13 What would be your advice to a parent hoping to make their child's fame and fortune by getting them to do MMA?

Ben Askren 40:21 That is about the worst job you can-

Chris Williamson 40:22 [laughs]

Ben Askren 40:24 ... have in your life. I mean, I tell, I tell everyone that. MMA is a, is an awful job. Um, you do it, uh, you do it... Uh, in my, this is my estimation. I did it 'cause I wanted to fight people, 'cause I like fighting people, 'cause I love the combat. That's why I did it. But if I wanted to have a real profession and a real job, I for sure would've done something else. Um, I always walk through someone, if you say, Chris came to me and said, "Hey, Ben, I wanna be an MMA fighter. What do you think about that?" I'd say, "Number one, it's dumb. Here's why. Chris, you're gonna start training. You're probably not gonna take a fight for a year. Okay, good. So then you take an amateur fight. Your amateur fights, that's gonna take you probably two years to get through. Okay, once you become a pro, now you're gonna have, say, two to three years of low-level, uh, professional fights. Okay, if that six years goes perfect, now you're gonna get signed to the UFC. And in your first year in the UFC, if you win all your fights, so this is, this is seven years of perfection, nothing went wrong in seven years-

Chris Williamson 41:15 Mm

Ben Askren 41:15 ... you're gonna make, like, $80,000. Okay, but of the $80,000, you gotta pay your gym, you gotta pay your manager, and you gotta pay taxes. So you're w- you're walking home with, I don't know, 35, $40,000 at that point. And, well, if you don't live in California, if you live in California, [laughs] you're walking home with, like, $27,000. That's not a good job." Um, so, you know, I've, I've only ever recommended two people, and it's went relatively well for them 'cause I saw they had a small amygdala and they were just a little different, and they wanted to fight people.

Chris Williamson 41:42 [laughs]

Ben Askren 41:44 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 41:44 How, how much of your success do you think came from talent?

Ben Askren 41:50 Zero. I don't believe it exists.

Chris Williamson 41:52 You don't believe that talent exists?

Ben Askren 41:54 I do not. And this is, you know what, this is hilarious. I'm thankful my wife, I, my wife is off, uh... You know what we're do- we're in Kansas City. We came here after I got inducted Hall of Fame in Oklahoma, and we came to Kansas City. My wife has 104-year-old grandfather, so we're visiting him. Um, so they're actually playing bingo with him right now, [laughs] my wife and my kids.

Chris Williamson 42:11 Fantastic.

Ben Askren 42:12 [laughs] I know. Great, right? Um, yeah, so I, uh, my main argument with my wife is, is the talent one. I don't, I do not think it exists. I think obviously human bodies have predispositions to certain things, and there are certain sports which are very predisposed. But, uh, when I think about talent, I think of the ability to do a complex task really, really well. I don't think you can do a complex task really, really well without a high level of training. Um, and one of the things before we argue this, I don't know if you're gonna argue with me or not, but one of the things I always argue prior is that- If we were to test talent, we would need to test talent out of the womb. When they pop out of their mom, we need to test it. Because I always say, hey, if I give you two kids coming to Askren Wrestling Academy, one kid has been sitting on a couch playing video games, his parents feeding him snacks all day, never teaching him discipline. He's a roly-poly. Listen, he needs some wrestling. We're gonna take care of him. We're gonna give him what he needs. But he's starting way over there. If you have another seven-year-old who's never wrestled, they both, both have never wrestled, but he's got older brothers. They fight, beat him up. He, his parents live a very active lifestyle. They're outside, they're hiking, they climb in trees. He's biking. He's playing games with his brother. He's not sitting inside. They have healthy, nutritious food. These are two seven-year-olds. Neither have ever wrestled, but they are worlds apart right now, from, from jump, you know? So that's kinda how I like to think about it.

Chris Williamson 43:39 Hmm.

Ben Askren 43:39 So we can debate if you, if you'd like to.

Chris Williamson 43:41 No, I, look, I, I think that especially in the sport of wrestling, perhaps something that you begin with so early on in life... I mean, look, some people are literally built differently to others. Some people will respond to training in different sorts of ways. When you really start to ask what is involved in talent, and if you were to think about something like desire to train as a-

Ben Askren 44:04 Yeah

Chris Williamson 44:04 ... kind of talent, some people just really like wrestling. They enjoy the idea of that. Other people might enjoy something really short. They might enjoy something that's less aggressive, right? They might be a, a, a world champion, a classical musicianist, right? A classical pianist or violinist or something like that. Uh, I don't think that if you just give those two people, even with their desire to work hard and their stubbornness and all the rest of this-

Ben Askren 44:30 Hmm

Chris Williamson 44:31 ... if you don't have the desire... So it's an interesting question, is-

Ben Askren 44:34 Yeah

Chris Williamson 44:34 ... desire to train part of talent, right? So people have a disposition to-

Ben Askren 44:38 I would say, I would say yes. I say yes. That's been, that, that, that argument's been proven by, uh, the sled dogs. Do you know this one?

Chris Williamson 44:45 No.

Ben Askren 44:46 The, the Iditarod sled dogs, uh, right? They, they run that big race where, across Alaska.

Chris Williamson 44:51 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 44:52 Um, so they, they breed, obviously breed the dogs, and the dogs, I think, can have a baby like every year or something. So they don't breed the fastest ones, and they don't breed the strongest ones. They breed the ones with the most desire to keep running.

Chris Williamson 45:04 Interesting.

Ben Askren 45:05 And so to, to your point, there's... But, so yeah, so what I would say, what I would say to that is, it, a- and so again, like a 100-meter dash or something that's a really, really simple skill, like that is not, uh, a very complex path. But a complex path, there's likely a multitude of things that it's gonna take to be world-class at that. So you're gonna have to have, you know, work ethic, perseverance, the desire to work, to your point. Um, right? Some level of intellect helps. Some level of hand-eye coordination helps. Like, you know, there's, there's gonna be this really large basket of, hey, you need, uh, X amount of this skill set, but which ones do you need? Like in wrestling, for example, um, I was incredibly slow-twitch muscle fiber. My, my fastest ever four-yard dash was like a 5'8". Like I am, I am incredibly slow.

Chris Williamson 45:51 Yeah.

Ben Askren 45:52 But I found a way to make it work. There's also wrestlers who are incredibly explosive and fast that find a way to make that work. Um, so you know, like of this basket of things that you can have, you may need, I don't, we'll say 20 of 25.

Chris Williamson 46:04 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 46:04 But you don't need every one.

Chris Williamson 46:06 Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 46:06 And you can kind of pick and choose from them. Um, so yeah. I, I, I think it's an interesting topic. Uh, so obviously I would absolutely, I would say people are obviously predisposed to being born differently, but I, I also think the early period in life is often neglected. There's another one. You guy- you know about the Polgar sisters?

Chris Williamson 46:23 Nope.

Ben Askren 46:24 Oh, man. We, uh, so the Polgar... Um, let me, let me make sure I'm... Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm 100% right on this. Uh, let me make sure. So this guy, uh... Yep, I'm correct. Okay. So this guy, he said, "I don't think talent exists, and I'm gonna prove it." You know how he's gonna prove it? He puts an ad out, and he says, "I need a wife who wants to help me make babies to be chess champions." [laughs]

Chris Williamson 46:45 Nice. Nice.

Ben Askren 46:46 And he finds, and he finds one, right? So he finds a wife to agree to these terms that, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna procreate, and then my kids are gonna be chess champions. So he s- he, he calls his shot. He says it be- before he even has kids. He says... And his, his three girls, I wanna say were the three of the five highest rated players of all time.

Chris Williamson 47:05 Wow.

Ben Askren 47:06 So he called it before he procreated.

Chris Williamson 47:09 Jesus Christ. Okay. Well, yeah, if you, if you can pick the pocket before you pot the eight, uh, that's-

Ben Askren 47:16 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 47:16 ... that's fair play. Jared, you ever considered that you might have a drinking problem?

Ben Askren 47:21 I don't consider a lot, Chris.

Chris Williamson 47:23 Well, you drank an entire case of Athletic Brewing Co. last night.

Ben Askren 47:27 But they're non-alcoholic.

Chris Williamson 47:29 And that's not a problem?

Ben Askren 47:31 Sorry, man, I, I just kept chugging, waiting for the regret to creep in. Never happened.

Chris Williamson 47:37 See, most people, like Jared, don't want to change what they drink. They just don't want the next day to be a complete write-off, and that is why I'm such a huge fan of Athletic Brewing Co. They make the best NA brews on the planet. [burps] You can find Athletic Brewing Co.'s best-selling lineup at grocery or liquor stores near you, or best option, get a full variety pack of four flavors shipped direct to your door. Right now, get 15% off your first online order by going to the link in the description below, or heading to athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's athleticbrewing.com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM at checkout. Near beer, terms and conditions apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times.

Ben Askren 48:17 Bottoms up. [laughs]

Chris Williamson 48:24 So I, I'm interested, like looking back at your, um, at your career, you went undefeated for 87 matches in a row?

Ben Askren 48:30 Yeah, that, my la- this is my last two years of college, yes.

Chris Williamson 48:33 Yeah.

Ben Askren 48:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:34 What, what goes through your mind when you're on a streak like that? Like y- do you get increasingly more scared of losing it, a pressure sort of over the top of, of things like that?

Ben Askren 48:44 Don't think about it. If you did, if you did, you are, if you did, you're gonna lose it. Um- You know, so I actually, I, I wrote two, I've written two books now, uh, with assistance of course, 'cause I'm not a great writer. Uh, one's about my life, one is about my sports psychology ideas. But my junior or senior year, I actually tried writing, um, another book, uh, which is about... So, so it would've been, it would've been my first book, right? Never published it 'cause I didn't think it turned out good enough. But I worked with this sports psychology PhD, and one of the things we did, we sent a questionnaire to every Division I NCAA champion in the past 50 years. So at that point it was 1956 to '06, was a 50-year window.

Chris Williamson 49:21 Hmm.

Ben Askren 49:21 Um, because I, I said, you know, "I know what I think, but I want more good opinions." So we sent them this questionnaire, I think it was like 12 questions. Um, and one of the questions, which was, this was really enlightening to me, 'cause at that point I already had one NCAA title, I was going on my second. And one of the questions was, "When did you go from good to great?" And we were looking for some form of my changing tr- cha- training change, I got a new coach, I had a new mindset. Just so- something. Like, what made this happen and, you know, when did it happen for you specifically? And it was really funny because that, the question was simple. Question was, we want this. And we got something totally different, and it was the mo- it was the question that was answered the most similarly of any questions, right? So if we got 100 questionnaire- 120 questionnaires back, you know, it's op- they're all open-ended questions, so you're gonna get things that are, you know, across the gamut of what's going on. So many of them said, "Your question assumes I was great. I never reached greatness, but..." Right? So they, they were all these people who were... And if you wanna look at wrestling, a Division I state champion is, like, in the 99.999 percentile. Like, you know, we're talking like one of 100,000. There's, there's roughly a million people wrestling in America today. There's 10 NCAA champions. One in 100,000 approximately or something. So if you're gonna label greatness, they're clearly in it. And they all were saying, not all, okay, not all of them. A very large percentage saying some form of, "I'm not great, I was never great." And so as we read through those answers, it, it struck me, okay, well, I won an NCAA title, so by my own definition, I would be great. I've never even thought about it. I never thought I'd ever considered it. All I was thinking about was, "How do I get better? How do I beat this next person as badly as possible?" And so it's one of those things where the, I realized the power was in not thinking about it. Like, to just be focused on the task ahead of you as opposed to... And you know, like, one of the things that I, I get annoyed about, um, is if people say, "What is your legacy?" My legacy is not determined by me. My, my legacy will be determined by what all the other people think about me.

Chris Williamson 51:30 Yeah.

Ben Askren 51:30 I'm gonna focus on every single day what I think I need to do to get better, and what I need to do is for what's best in my life. And whatever they wanna think of me, they think of me. So that's kinda how all these people are thinking is like-

Chris Williamson 51:41 Right

Ben Askren 51:41 ... I'm just focused on getting better, and I'm not worried about being great, as you would call it. Um, and I think that's, like, really, really powerful.

Chris Williamson 51:49 Yeah, that's fascinating. I, I guess the obsession to just be riven by always wanting to improve is exactly why those people are separated out from the pack. You could probably ask... You know what would be interesting? Would be to ask people who didn't become, uh, NCAA champions, but were maybe in the top 2%, and ask them when they think they became great. And they might-

Ben Askren 52:15 That would be-

Chris Williamson 52:15 ... be more likely to answer, "Oh, I became great at this point." Perhaps the lack of-

Ben Askren 52:20 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 52:20 ... thinking that you're great is what actually-

Ben Askren 52:22 Yeah

Chris Williamson 52:22 ... induces greatness.

Ben Askren 52:24 I mean, that's totally... You s- you, I, I'm sure you've heard the phrase, um, man, rest in peace, my old coach Duke Hooper used to say this. Um, if you're, if you're green, you're growing. Oh, what was his phrase? It was essentially if you're green, you're growing. So if you're, you have a white belt mentality... Dang it, I can't believe I just forgot what he said all the time. Oh, my goodness. Essentially, if you're, you're green, you're growing. Like, if you, if you believe you're a white belt and you're open to knowledge and learning from people, you're gonna continue to get better. But when, when you think, uh, you know it all or you're good enough, then you're gonna start declining. And so, you know, with our wrestling academy now, we've been open for 15 years. And especially in the early days before we were as influential, 'cause now a lot of times we have kids from the time they're real little, five, six, seven years old. Um, but previously we saw certain kids say, "Oh, I won a sectional title. I'm, I'm, I don't need to listen to you. I'm really good. I won a sectional title." Or-

Chris Williamson 53:17 Hmm

Ben Askren 53:17 ... "I won a state title. I'm really, really good." When, you know, we talk about state title to NCAA champion, these are, these are, they're not even in the same ballpark. So yeah, uh, I would 100% agree with once people think they made it or they th- they think they know everything or know enough or they can't be helped-

Chris Williamson 53:33 Hmm

Ben Askren 53:33 ... uh, then generally there's, uh, some type of either plateauing feature or decline that happens, uh, in their skill ability.

Chris Williamson 53:40 People, I think, even have a sense of this when they look at the trajectory of a, any, any person that's on a pursuit to life. The difference between being someone who has fallen off and someone that never made it is kind of fascinating to me. There's a... Obviously, th- the person who fell off, by virtue of having fallen, it means that at some point they were up pretty high.

Ben Askren 54:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:06 But there, there is a kind of additional disparagement of, "Oh, you had it and you lost it," as opposed to, "You never even got it." Even though, like, objectively, you did better. But we're so seduced and we are, we're so enamored and enthralled by the prospect of momentum and, and potential that if the direction of travel is declining, if it's going from-

Ben Askren 54:37 Yeah

Chris Williamson 54:37 ... you were great to now you're-

Ben Askren 54:38 Yeah

Chris Williamson 54:38 ... less great than you were, as opposed to you were average and then you became better than average and then you kinda stopped. Like-

Ben Askren 54:44 Yeah

Chris Williamson 54:45 ... in some ways, yeah, the, the person who never made it but didn't get a chance to fall off is in a, a preferable position sometimes.

Ben Askren 54:53 Man, that, that's one where I would just say you just gotta ignore everyone else. Uh, because I agree, you know, so many times people use the term washed up. To your point, that means at some point they had to be significantly better than they currently are.

Chris Williamson 55:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ben Askren 55:05 But ti- time's undefeated. No one's been great forever. And so, um, you know, I, I did retire, I retired for the first time in 2017. I never got to fight the better guys, so I said, If I ever do, I'll come back out of retirement. I unretired 2018. Then I had issues, so I retired relatively quickly again after that. Um, but I always j- you know, if someone wants to continue fighting, which, uh, listen, I'm not... Fighting is a very tough sport, so let- let's go to football. If a Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady, if they wanna continue to compete, like, what's wrong with them continuing to try to... Yeah, they're not gonna be as good at 43 as they were at 28 or 32 or something, obviously. But who cares? Like, they're still, they're still elite enough to be in one of the top 32 positions in the NFL, right? The- you gotta be top 32 quarterbacks to play on the field. Other- if you're not, you're not gonna be on the field. Um, so I- that's something where it's like, well, that's an opinion of other people, and if you wanna keep playing football or whatever sport it is, whatever you're doing, then-

Chris Williamson 56:04 Mm-hmm

Ben Askren 56:04 ... by all means, like, have at it.

Chris Williamson 56:07 Yeah. Well, I- y- kind of on that, I suppose you were nearly un- you, you were undefeated for almost a decade, right? Pretty much-

Ben Askren 56:13 Yeah

Chris Williamson 56:13 ... almost a decade. But many casual fans remember you for one five-second knockout.

Ben Askren 56:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:19 Like, what's that taught you about reputation?

Ben Askren 56:22 [laughs] I ignored it in the first place, and I continue to ignore it.

Chris Williamson 56:25 100%.

Ben Askren 56:25 So, um, yeah, just ne- I never thought too much about it. I mean, for me, I love to compete, and I wanted to prove I was the best, and that's why I, you know, I retired, and I said, "The only way I'm coming back out is if I get to fight someone higher, ranked higher than me." So, um, you know, uh, I- when I was fighting through the Bellator and One Championship days, um, I fought a f- fair amount of highly ranked guys. Jay Hieron was fairly highly ranked, so I fought him. Douglas Lima. Um, there was kind of a handful, but I, I never got to fight anyone who was in the top five. And so I was like, I think I got stuck at six. So when I came out, you know, when I retired, I said, "Well, I'm only, I only wanna fight someone better than me. I don't wanna fight anyone that's worse than me, 'cause I wanna try to prove I'm number one." And so, you know, right away it was Robbie Lawler, who was, I don't know if he's number two or number three in the world at that point in time. But yeah, and that was one where I think a lot of people, and some people did advise me, "Well, don't do this. If you lose, people will think differently about you." And I said, "I don't give a damn what people think about me. I never started MMA to care about what people thought about me. I started MMA to see if I could be the best in the world at it."

Chris Williamson 57:28 Mm.

Ben Askren 57:28 "And that's what I, that's what I wanna do, and that's what I'm gonna do." And I, listen, I didn't get there. I got pretty freaking close. Um, but no, I'm not ashamed about that at all.

Chris Williamson 57:38 S- I, I kind of been, as I was thinking, watching your journey, y- seeing that first video you posted, which was, like, inspiring and harrowing in equal parts.

Ben Askren 57:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:50 You have this opportunity for your life to be defined by a variety of different situations.

Ben Askren 57:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:57 You had the opportunity for your career to be defined by being a NCAA champion and 87 undefeated, uh, fights-

Ben Askren 58:04 Yeah

Chris Williamson 58:04 ... in a row. You had the opportunity to be defined by being only the sixth-best in the world in One Championship and not pivoting onto something else. You had the opportunity to be defined by the fastest knockout, the opportunity to be defined by boxing Jake Paul, the opportunity now to be defined by being the guy that overcame death and got two new lungs, and then went back and wrestled within the space of only a year.

Ben Askren 58:27 Mm.

Chris Williamson 58:27 At each of these junctures, you... The world is sort of offering you this opportunity to make your life about a thing. And-

Ben Askren 58:35 Yeah

Chris Williamson 58:36 ... I, it seems to me like you're continuing to, like, stick your middle finger up at the handshake-

Ben Askren 58:40 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 58:40 ... it's being offered to you.

Ben Askren 58:42 Yeah, that's, that, that's what life is about. Like, legacy is defined by other people if they want to. If they, and if they don't wanna think about me, I don't, I don't really care. I hope they have a great life, and I'm gonna continue to live life the way I, I want to and as, as full as I can. And, um, you know, I, I, I, I don't know if people consciously think this about me, but I think there are a lot of people who I don't know if in- inspired m- might be the right word, by how not bashful I am towards death. Like, I'm gonna take a chance. If you offer me a chance, I'm gonna take a chance all, every time. And I'm gonna tell you, I don't need anything given to me in life. All I need is an opportunity. And if you give me, give me an opportunity, I'm gonna take it. And am I gonna win every time? No, I'm not. Are any of us gonna win every time? No, we're not. And, you know, there's a, there's actually this really good book. Have you ever, have you read, I don't know if you, uh, how you feel about this guy, but I, I like him, and I got to meet him, and he's very cool. His name's Josh Metcalf. He wrote Chop Wood Carry Water. Um, really good b- really good book. Um, and then, but then it was funny 'cause w- he's written a handful of books. His most notable one was Chop Wood Carry Water, but then he wrote a book called Finish Empty, and it was life from a deathbed's perspective. And it came out right [laughs] around the time I was dying. And so, uh, I got to read it with literally a deathbed perspective, 'cause I woke up, I wanna say it was May, you know, I don't know, I don't know the exact date it came out. I got it maybe a month and a half to two months after everything went down, you know? And one of the, one of the really amazing quotes, uh, that just, it just sticks in my head, so I better get it right, is, uh, "The point of life is not to arrive safely at death." I think it was-

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Ben Askren 1:01:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:35 "Stop worrying about things and get to action."

Ben Askren 1:01:37 Yeah, and there's another good one, there's another really good one in there, hopefully gives, um, "Worrying is like a rocking chair, you can move all day, but you ain't going anywhere."

Chris Williamson 1:01:46 Mm. [laughs]

Ben Askren 1:01:46 Right? So stop worrying about things. Go make it happen. And that's kinda, that's kinda how I lived my life prior to this, and now it's even like, dude, I'm [laughs] yeah, that, that's how I'm gonna do it. And, you know, I, uh... Like I said, I take my medicine every day. I wear my mask when I have to. I'm gonna try not to be reckless with my livelihood. I, my, my plan is to be the longest living double lung transplant person ever. That, that is my goal in my plan.

Chris Williamson 1:02:10 Do you know what the record is?

Ben Askren 1:02:12 38 years, [laughs] so I'm going 39, baby.

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 Wow, and how old would you, how old would you be, uh-

Ben Askren 1:02:17 Uh, I'd be 80. So, you know, um, yeah, that would be a, that'd be, that'd be a good, good life. And you know, I, I honestly, I figure if I make it like 15, 20 more years, there's gonna be some new technology. They're, they're already starting to build organs with, uh, your own stem cells, I believe is what they're doing, and so that would also get me off the, the immunosuppressants 'cause those, those over a very long-

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 Oh, hang on. So you're suggesting that you would get another lung transplant?

Ben Askren 1:02:44 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:02:45 You'd be, you'd be down for that? You'd go through it again?

Ben Askren 1:02:48 Oh, absolutely. I mean, 'cause the immunosuppressants, um, are, uh, they're a decent portion of the reason why life expectancy is not that high because when you kill your immune system, you cause a whole bunch of other problems, right?

Chris Williamson 1:03:00 Right. Right.

Ben Askren 1:03:00 Um-

Chris Williamson 1:03:01 Right. Right

Ben Askren 1:03:01 ... and so I don't know that, you know... They, they're, they are, they're literally building organs with stem cells-

Chris Williamson 1:03:07 Yeah

Ben Askren 1:03:08 ... and your, your own DNA. Um, but they're probably not very good at it yet, but just, like any-

Chris Williamson 1:03:12 Dude, I get the sense if, if, if there's a list of people that they want to test this on as a good case study, I reckon an ex-

Ben Askren 1:03:18 [laughs]

Chris Williamson 1:03:18 ... ex-professional athlete is probably pretty high up.

Ben Askren 1:03:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:20 And I don't know how many ex-professional athletes at your level have had... Like, how many... No one's gonna be... I, I'll volunteer. I'll volunteer to have the lung transplant from my real ones to my fake real ones. Um-

Ben Askren 1:03:32 Fake real. [laughs]

Chris Williamson 1:03:33 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Uh, but-

Ben Askren 1:03:35 Well, I even told, even told my doctor. I, Chris, I even told my doctor. I said, "Hey, man..." Uh, one of my doctors is, is pretty young, and he's, I wanna say progressive. Like, you can tell he wants to make it happen, and he wants to make, you know, life better for all the lung transplant patients. And I said, "Hey, man, you got any ideas that you think are gonna work, run them by me, 'cause you're not gonna find anyone more disciplined, and I'm down for it. If you think it's gonna help me live longer, I will, I will run that protocol. So you just let me know."

Chris Williamson 1:04:00 Fuck yeah.

Ben Askren 1:04:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:01 Dude, you're, you're an inspiration, man. You always were, but this is, it's another level. So I'm, I'm really, really happy that you're still here. I'm really happy that you're doing this. Good luck with the, the fight. I'm gonna be watching. I'm gonna be watching and enjoying. Uh-

Ben Askren 1:04:13 Thank you

Chris Williamson 1:04:14 ... what else have you got going on? Where should people go to keep up to date with all of the things that you're doing?

Ben Askren 1:04:17 Oh, man. Uh, you know, I don't post on social media that much anymore. Um, well, it's Instagram and Twitter, and just my real name. Uh, it's not Twitter anymore. It's called X. Sorry. Uh, I, I, but I actually, I have a movie coming out this fall also, um, about this. This is gonna be exciting. Um, I don't know exactly when it's coming out yet. Uh, so my wife's, one of their family friends in high school, uh, was a movie producer, and he was watching my stuff last summer, and he said, "That looks amazing. Um, would you guys be open to it?" And my, my wife had filmed so much stuff while I was in the hospital. And, uh, he shopped it around, and the, the Henrys, I don't know if you know them, um, at Novo Studios picked it up. And so we've done a whole bunch of filming on it, and that, I think it's gonna be great, and I hope it's really inspiring to... for people to lead a life where just like I said, they're, they're fearless. They live the life that they wanna live, not the one that they're afraid what other people are gonna think of them, so they don't do things. They don't take chances. Um, and to live their life as fully as possible. So that's kinda what I'm hoping to inspire people with.

Chris Williamson 1:05:22 Unreal, man. Unreal. Dude, let's keep in touch. I'm excited to see what you do next, and, uh, let's, uh, let's talk when the, the documentary comes out.

Ben Askren 1:05:30 Awesome. I love it. Thanks so much, man.

Chris Williamson 1:05:32 Appreciate you, dude. Catch you later on. Congratulations. You made it to the end of a full podcast episode. You are not so TikTok brained that you've completely dissolved into nothingness. Why not watch another one? Right here. Go on, press it.