Relationships 101

1. 0:00 – 1:16

   Pre-show banter: coffee, lateness, and dating apps

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) So, hello. Hi, everybody.

   2. JOJonny0:07

      Hello.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:08

      The long awaited Yusuf and Johnny guest appearance.

   4. YUYusef0:13

      'Cause you've been on without me, haven't you? Can't believe you did that.

   5. JOJonny0:15

      Yeah. It was while you were away.

   6. YUYusef0:17

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JOJonny0:17

      And then I missed your birthday.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:19

      I remember.

   9. JOJonny0:20

      But I've got you some coffee now, so.

   10. YUYusef0:21

       Well, no. I have to wait to see if I'm allowed the coffee.

   11. JOJonny0:24

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson0:25

       (laughs)

   13. YUYusef0:25

       'Cause you sent forth two bags, one that needs grinding and one that doesn't need grinding.

   14. JOJonny0:29

       For two people.

   15. YUYusef0:29

       And you know that I am the grinder.

   16. JOJonny0:31

       One may not have a grinder. One definitely has a grinder, so.

   17. CWChris Williamson0:32

       And one is on Grindr.

   18. JOJonny0:34

       One is on Grindr.

   19. YUYusef0:35

       (laughs)

   20. JOJonny0:35

       So not- not even by his choice.

   21. CWChris Williamson0:38

       Yeah. I have been on Grindr.

   22. JOJonny0:39

       I wonder if you're still on Grindr.

   23. YUYusef0:40

       I was on Grindr twice.

   24. JOJonny0:41

       Catfished. You've- you've both catfished. Been catfished.

   25. CWChris Williamson0:44

       Been catfished on Grindr, yeah.

   26. JOJonny0:46

       Or been the- been the subject. Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson0:48

       Been the catfish on Grindr.

   28. JOJonny0:50

       Yeah. (clears throat)

   29. CWChris Williamson0:51

       Um, later on when we do our first ever Q&A, make sure that you tune into that.

   30. JOJonny0:57

       (singing)
2. 1:16 – 4:10

   Why this episode: building a dating-to-exclusivity framework

   1. CWChris Williamson1:16

      Yeah. Uh, so speaking of Tinder, we are gonna talk about dating advice today.

   2. YUYusef1:22

      Dating.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:23

      Dating. Um.

   4. YUYusef1:24

      Dating.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:25

      It's something that I've been... (sighs) Relationships has been a podcast that we wanted to do for ages. And dating advice-

   6. YUYusef1:34

      A long time.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:34

      Yeah, real long time. Dating advice for me forms a nice foundation for that.

   8. YUYusef1:39

      (clears throat)

   9. CWChris Williamson1:39

      Because most people will go through the process of dating someone, that kind of ... You can take it from the moment that you meet someone that you may fancy up until the point at which you- they become your boyfriend or girlfriend.

   10. YUYusef1:51

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:52

       And there's an awful lot, like that's a- an area that covers many sins, right?

   12. YUYusef1:57

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:57

       Like from first dates to seeing someone, whatever the fuck that means, to when you define the relationship and-

   14. YUYusef2:04

       So from initial to being exclusive with someone?

   15. CWChris Williamson2:07

       Yeah. W-

   16. YUYusef2:07

       We're not talking about from initial to marriage.

   17. CWChris Williamson2:09

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, yeah.

   18. YUYusef2:10

       'Cause I would- I would say arguably all of that is technically, in my mind ... I know that's ridiculous.

   19. CWChris Williamson2:16

       No, no. It's still kind of dating.

   20. YUYusef2:17

       Sort of. Like 'cause I- I think it's- all of it's just arbitrary and so it's a big-

   21. CWChris Williamson2:19

       Well, what is a relationship? A relationship's-

   22. YUYusef2:21

       ... thing called legal- legal commitment.

   23. CWChris Williamson2:22

       You've not litigated yourself into a relationship-

   24. YUYusef2:24

       (clears throat)

   25. CWChris Williamson2:24

       ... until you're married, right?

   26. YUYusef2:26

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson2:26

       So but- you know, so all of this we can try and-

   28. YUYusef2:28

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson2:28

       ... conceptualize down. So I wanted to-

   30. JOJonny2:30

       Should we move chronologically then from single life all the way up to-
3. 4:10 – 5:20

   Chris’s “cheat codes” for spotting bad guys (from personal experience)

   1. CWChris Williamson4:10

      So I wanted to talk about dating, and what I've been thinking about. While I was away in America, I ended up, um, having a chat with a young girl over there who'd kind of been going through the throes of her first serious relationship. And what came out of that was me making some realizations and some rules about my past behavior that girls could stick to which would form a framework for them to avoid bad guys and stick with good guys.

   2. JOJonny4:40

      So some heuristics that they can follow-

   3. CWChris Williamson4:42

      Yeah.

   4. JOJonny4:42

      ... to keep them on the-

   5. CWChris Williamson4:43

      On the right path.

   6. JOJonny4:44

      Okay.

   7. YUYusef4:44

      Are you a bad guy or a good guy in that framework?

   8. CWChris Williamson4:47

      I was, I was the person that you should avoid.

   9. YUYusef4:50

      Right.

   10. CWChris Williamson4:50

       And the reason that I know the things that you need to look out for and the- the barriers-

   11. YUYusef4:54

       See.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:54

       ... you need to put in place is because they were the ones that would have tripped me up.

   13. JOJonny4:58

       Okay. So-

   14. CWChris Williamson4:59

       So this is the cheat code.

   15. YUYusef5:00

       This is- this is behind the curtain, like this is what-

   16. CWChris Williamson5:01

       This is the cheat, this is the cheat codes of how to get around assholes.

   17. YUYusef5:04

       Wow.

   18. JOJonny5:04

       Reverse engineer it. Okay, I- I would also like to contest that further down the line, over that you are someone who you want to avoid. Because I think-

   19. CWChris Williamson5:11

       But you only know me, you only know me from what, when I was 24, 25?

   20. JOJonny5:15

       True. Oh, okay, so you're saying there's been a change?

   21. CWChris Williamson5:16

       And before that, I'm talking, I'm talking like 18 to 23.

   22. JOJonny5:19

       Okay.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:19

       So anyway, I've got some-

   24. JOJonny5:20

       Can-

4. 5:20 – 9:37

   Age, maturity gaps, and why early-20s dating is unstable

   1. CWChris Williamson5:20

      Sorry, let me- let me foundation it for you. Every guy under the age of around about 23, if you take the average, is not really worthy of being in a relationship with. And if you want to have a relationship with someone who's balanced, and for it to last for a long time as a girl, I- I think that you're fighting a losing battle. I think that under the age of 23 to 25, most guys think with their penis first. They don't have a very solid understanding of who they are, and they're constantly chasing after, for the most part, they're heavily chasing after female attention to help them bolster their own ego because they don't have a- a-... concrete sense of character about who they are anymore. Now, obviously, there's going to be outliers in this. Perfect example is my business partner, Darren. So he met his missus in the second year of uni, I think they got together in their third year. They moved in when they were 21, 22. They got a dog when they were 25. They got married when they were 26. They got another dog at 27. They had, they got a kid at 29 or 28. And now they're in this amazing house, and they-

   2. JOJonny6:27

      Very systematic progression, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:28

      ... they've, uh, it is the perfect framework.

   4. JOJonny6:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:31

      The equivalent of the American dream, but (claps) like-

   6. JOJonny6:34

      Vulnerability.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:34

      ... marriage with college sweetheart. Like it's-

   8. JOJonny6:36

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson6:36

      It, they've got it. But they're the outliers.

   10. JOJonny6:39

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:40

       Especially for him. He is the absolute rarity in this situation. So I think a lot of the time people who don't understand what I do, my job now as a club promoter is actually more as just a leader and a glorified parent. So I'm a, uh, pretty much a big brother to between 250 and 500 students in Newcastle and Manchester every single year. And every year I get older, but they stay the same age. They just get replaced.

   12. JOJonny7:09

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson7:09

       There's just this conveyor belt of new people coming in and the same situations come up over and over and over and over again. And-

   14. JOJonny7:16

       And these people who work for you or people who-

   15. CWChris Williamson7:18

       Work for me.

   16. JOJonny7:19

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:19

       Yeah.

   18. JOJonny7:19

       Not people in the clubs?

   19. CWChris Williamson7:21

       Not, I'm not close enough to the people that are in the clubs. But these are people who are in the clubs.

   20. JOJonny7:25

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:25

       They're just ones that I'm closer to, if that's-

   22. JOJonny7:26

       That's because you tell the people, who tell the people, we tell the people to go to the clubs.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:29

       To go to the clubs, yeah, exactly. You've... That's the correct framework.

   24. JOJonny7:32

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:33

       So I think one of the first things that girls need to be really conscious of, and I'm gonna, I'm going to do guys-

   26. JOJonny7:40

       Hooray! (laughs) Um-

   27. CWChris Williamson7:42

       I'm gonna do guys as well. I'm gonna give advice to guys, got it? But I'm gonna go for girls first and then-

   28. JOJonny7:46

       Just to add to your foundation there as well, I think you said that going for a man under 23 and expecting someone who is stable and emotionally mature and reliable-

   29. CWChris Williamson7:57

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JOJonny7:58

       ... for a relationship purpose is a losing battle because statistically they're not gonna be... I think, and I remember you discussed this as well, which is that there's a, the, the curves of when men and women emotionally mature don't overlap properly.
5. 9:37 – 11:40

   Rule #1 for women: raise the hurdles, set hard lines (without games)

   1. CWChris Williamson9:37

      The first thing that I think that girls need to do when they start speaking to guys, and this is in, you've met them in a club or you've, like, matched them on Tinder, or you've started chatting to them from work or whatever it might be. When you first begin speaking to them, I think that girls get too much of a bad rap for giving lads a hard time and making them jump through hoops. Personally, for me, I don't think they're making them jump high enough.

   2. JOJonny9:59

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson9:59

      Like, I think that the hurdles that are laid down by girls for men, especially when you're talking 20, 21, 22, 23-

   4. JOJonny10:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:07

      ... and but up to, you know, up, throughout the whole way through life, I think the higher that the hurdles are, as long as you are making sure that the man knows that you're interested and that you're giving him sufficient attention to know that they're gonna continue to play the game, I think it's a win-win scenario, including for the men. Right? And let me tell you why. So firstly, if you're laying down... And by laying down hurdles, what I mean is not folding or-

   6. JOJonny10:33

      (clears throat)

   7. CWChris Williamson10:33

      ... um, compromising on something that you think when they do something wrong, you tell them straight away-

   8. JOJonny10:38

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:38

      ... and you put them in their place. When they make plans and they cancel them, you don't need to go overboard. You don't need to be passive aggressive. And we'll get onto that in a second, because that is the number one way to remove the integrity of what you're saying, right? Passive aggressiveness for me is up there with the top no-nos that you shou- that girls should do in relationships, and guys as well. By laying down these hurdles for girls, the first thing that it does is it certifies that the guy who you're speaking to is invested in you in the long term. If they're not prepared to get past you asking them a question about their last relationship, or you asking them to make plans for a night out. And if you ask them, "Okay, let's go out on Wednesday, but I'm gonna let you plan the date. I'll plan the next one, but you plan the date," and you turn up and he then says, "I've got nothing planned," you need to tell him that he's fucked up. You need to say, "That's shit. That's not, that's not a good investment in your time."

6. 11:40 – 14:14

   Standards vs ‘shit tests’: integrity beats contrived conflict

   1. JOJonny11:40

      So it's the, the example there is, is having a principle and making sure that the principle is upheld.

   2. CWChris Williamson11:49

      Draw some hard lines in the sand of what is and is not acceptable behavior.

   3. JOJonny11:52

      So I think I've seen both ends of the spectrum where either there is shit testing for shit testing's sake-

   4. CWChris Williamson11:58

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JOJonny11:58

      ... and it almost is like it's contrived, it's just trying to give someone a hard time for the sake of it.

   6. CWChris Williamson12:02

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JOJonny12:02

      But there's no real underlying principle. Uh, very similar to if you've seen the Argument Clinic on Monty Python.... where he goes into the room and he's like, "Hello, um, am I in the right room for an argument?" (laughs) He's like, "No, you aren't." Like-

   8. CWChris Williamson12:14

      Yeah.

   9. JOJonny12:15

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson12:15

       (laughs) Yeah. Yeah. That's-

   11. JOJonny12:16

       "No, I'm not." And he goes on-

   12. CWChris Williamson12:16

       Can you, can you briefly explain what shit testing is, please, for people who don't know pick-up artistry?

   13. JOJonny12:20

       Yeah, sure. Well, ultimately ... Well, so, yeah, I'd like to get on to pick-up artistry as well. But, yeah, so shit testing, just what you've said. Giving someone a, like, hard time or, or ... to see how they respond. Throwing a grenade.

   14. CWChris Williamson12:29

       That... Yeah. It's for the purpose, it's the purpose of doing that though, right?

   15. JOJonny12:32

       Purely for that, without an underlying, um, intention.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:34

       It's the female equivalent of negging, right?

   17. JOJonny12:36

       Y- yeah. So, so the ... And what my point is, there has to be a certain agenda, and that has to be a stable set of principles, as you said.

   18. CWChris Williamson12:44

       It's got to be borne out with integrity.

   19. JOJonny12:46

       Whereas, at one point in the argument clinic, he's like, "No, it isn't. Yes, it is. Hang on, this isn't an argument. This is just contradiction." He was like, "No, it isn't." "But yes, it is."

   20. CWChris Williamson12:54

       (laughs)

   21. JOJonny12:54

       Like, an argument is a series of statements formed around a specific foundational point, whereas you're just disar- like, disagreeing with everything that I say. And so there's the difference. I think, like, if it's, if it's upholding a certain set of values-

   22. CWChris Williamson13:07

       Yes.

   23. JOJonny13:08

       ... then, yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson13:08

       So you're totally right and that's a-

   25. JOJonny13:10

       And then the-

   26. CWChris Williamson13:10

       ... that's something that I've missed. And -

   27. JOJonny13:11

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson13:11

       The other side of it- It needs-

   29. JOJonny13:12

       ... is just being a, a doormat, so ...

   30. CWChris Williamson13:13

       It needs to be, it needs to be borne of what you ... What do you consider, as a girl, to be acceptable and unacceptable behavior in a man? Then draw the lines in the sand and don't compromise on them. So here's the reasons that it's good, that you are going to make sure that the men that you invest your time in are sufficiently invested in you, because the ones who fall at the first hurdle and aren't prepared to get over it, what do you think was gonna fucking happen when they're drunk in a nightclub and some girl comes up to them? Like, this is ... It's making sure that they can bear a sufficiently heavy load, even at a f- fucking empty bar level of heavy load- (clears throat) ... that when they have to go into a one-rep max in terms of virtue, that they might actually have the capacity to bear it. Does that make sense?
7. 14:14 – 16:34

   Dating is investing, not day-trading: clarify goals (sex vs relationship)

   1. CWChris Williamson14:14

      So, okay, so that's the fi- that's the first thing that's good. Before we move on. Yeah. These, these principles, if we are ... For someone who's listening- Yeah. ... does this apply ... So I think there has to be a conversation of like, is, is this person looking for a one-night-stand scenario? Are they looking to move towards ... Ha- have I jumped ahead? No. No? You've asked the, you've asked the, the perfect question. All right. Sure enough. 'Cause I, 'cause I think you have to begin with the end in mind, don't you? If the, if the, if the, if ... As a girl- Because if you just want shagging, then, like-

   2. JOJonny14:46

      Oh.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:46

      ... there's not a lot of bar sitting, yeah. If you, if you, if you want a pissing as a girl, like, crack on.

   4. JOJonny14:49

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson14:49

      Mm-hmm. Find a guy that is- Lower the barriers. Well, lower the, d- lower the barriers, but heighten the standards. Like, because- Mm-hmm. ... if you want a one-night stand, your parameters for what you're looking for in a mate- Mm-hmm. ... change. Yeah. Intellectually, how both- bothered are you? But in terms of ... You probably l- want someone who's a bit lean. You probably want someone- Mm-hmm. ... who's muscular, who physically fits the attributes that you need. Mm-hmm. Whereas, you know, we've all been around beautiful but stupid people. Mm-hmm. Right? And vice versa. Mm-hmm. Really interesting people who we're not sexually attracted to.

   6. JOJonny15:16

      And I find that dynamic so interesting, 'cause if you ask most women ... And, women, if you're listening and disagree, please say, but, like, any woman I've spoken to and I've asked, "Would you have sex with a man who you find physically attractive, but was ... really bored you, was boring as hell, as opposed to someone who you maybe ... who you found attractive but you hated?"

   7. CWChris Williamson15:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JOJonny15:36

      And they'd prefer to have sex with the man who they hated, 'cause at least there's some intensity there, there's some passion.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:40

      Some feeling.

   10. JOJonny15:41

       Whereas I think men are much different in the sense that, like, you could have sex with someone that you found quite boring-

   11. CWChris Williamson15:48

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JOJonny15:48

       ... but that you wouldn't want to spend time with.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:49

       I think men can scale that to a very mechanical- Yeah. ... in- interaction.

   14. JOJonny15:52

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:52

       Whereas I think women, less so. It's much more visceral as- Yeah. ... a man, right? Mm-hmm. So, uh, the ... Perfectly correct. If all that you're looking for is sex, then change your parameters around. So this is a different ... That's part one, and this is- Yeah. So I'm talking about, I'm talking about dating. I wouldn't say that you- Okay. I wouldn't class dating as ... If you need to go out on the pull- Mm-hmm. ... then we will do. And if you want a podcast on that, then we'll do a podcast on how to be single. Like, how- So this isn't, this isn't trading, it's investing. This isn't day- Exactly. This isn't day trading.

   16. JOJonny16:17

       Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:17

       It's not short-term positions. This is, "I'm looking for a long-term- Yes. ... position." Right, fa- Yeah. So-

   18. JOJonny16:22

       It's not going hell for leather on cryptos. This is like-

   19. CWChris Williamson16:24

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You're not, you're not margin trading.

   20. JOJonny16:26

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson16:26

       You're not doing 50/12 creation. Wealth creation. Yes. Right. Exactly. So- Hopefully that made it much clearer for everyone.

   22. JOJonny16:33

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson16:33

       (laughs)

   24. JOJonny16:33

       (laughs)

8. 16:34 – 22:48

   Early weeks set precedent: training dynamics and improving men’s behavior

   1. CWChris Williamson16:34

      (laughs) Yeah. 2022 01:10:15,160 -- 01:10:17,270 So, that's the first thing that's good. Right? Mm-hmm. So it means that you filter out the bottom feeders. Mm-hmm. The men who aren't worth your time. And you, you jump ahead a couple of s- steps. Mm-hmm. So, cool. Second thing that's good is it sets a tone for the relationship moving forward that means that you're not going to take shit. Mm-hmm. So, we all know, and we'll go over this when we do relationships, the proper relationships podcast. For me, the key in almost every relationship is, like, the first 6 weeks to 10 weeks. The reason being that you set precedent after precedent after precedent for what happens in X situation, Y situation, and Z situation. What happens when you don't get a message after someone's been on a night out saying that they've got home safe? Mm-hmm. How do you react? How do you react when they get in late? How do you react when they cancel a date? How do you react when they do whatever? So, I forgot to say- (laughs) ... that particular camera can only do around about 20 minutes at a time. (laughs) So every so often- It'll go, "Beep." ... I'm gonna pass it onto you. I'm gonna have to get up and I'm gonna have to change it. Thanks, video guy Dean. (laughs) Um, we're gonna pass it on to ... Oh, as in we speak, and then I'm gonna get up and get to that. Uh, okay, fine. Uh, if you're just listening- Ah. ... that's completely pointless, but it's fine. So, it sets the tone for the relationship moving forwards, right? Mm-hmm. It means that you are drawing lines in the sand, not only for now that filter out potential mates, but you're also training them to be a good mate for you. Mm-hmm. The third and final one, and this is the one that I think is most holistic moving forward- Mm-hmm. ... is men really ... In fact, look, I'm gonna make this into a four. Thirdly, men really fucking need this.... the reason being that it makes them learn what is and is not acceptable behavior for women. Like, if there, if you are with a guy and you find out that he's been messaging your mate, and you think that that, based on your own values and your own integrity, you think that that is unacceptable behavior and you bin him off, that's only going to happen to him two or three times before he goes, "I probably need to change my behavior."

   2. JOJonny18:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:41

      The reason that this continues to happen-

   4. JOJonny18:43

      Is that it's permissive.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:44

      ... is that guys are able to wheedle their way through. And this is speaking from experience, because for years and years and years, I was able to outwit girls that I was seeing to one degree or another, whatever level of depth you want to say that is.

   6. JOJonny18:57

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:58

      And I was able to, I was able to get myself out of it, so I never learned.

   8. JOJonny19:01

      This is the Parkinson's law, like in a social context. So Parkinson's law is where you... (microphone rustles) an, a task fills the time that you've allocated to it. And I'm sure if you've been working to a deadline with an essay or something, you're like, for some reason, you, there's no way you can just get it done a week in advance in a two-hour slot. It's, yeah, always extends to that. And the same thing, like, if a certain behavior is permitted frequently, then you lower your own standards for yourself.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:29

      Gets reinforced.

   10. JOJonny19:30

       And so as a man, you want someone to hold you to a higher standards. Like Earl Nightingale says, the... "Treat a man as you expect him to be, not as he is," and, you know, give him the room to expand to that and to rise up to that challenge.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:44

       (coughs) That's perfect.

   12. JOJonny19:44

       So.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:44

       That, that quote has managed to make a good synopsis, I think, of everything that I've come up with here.

   14. JOJonny19:50

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson19:50

       So, uh, go on.

   16. GUGuest19:53

       I, I think if I had... I think as a 21-year-old or even younger, like 20-year-old, I was too ego-driven to have probably realized the... I, I think as a, as a young guy, you take a lot of advice like this, or I know this isn't aimed at guys, this part, or is it?

   17. CWChris Williamson20:16

       Well, it could be. It should be.

   18. GUGuest20:17

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:17

       Because guys should realize they can make implications from this.

   20. GUGuest20:20

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson20:20

       The vast majority of the audience that's listening to this, maybe two thirds of it, are men.

   22. GUGuest20:24

       Are men.

   23. CWChris Williamson20:25

       Okay. And-

   24. JOJonny20:25

       I think all of the behaviors you've covered-

   25. CWChris Williamson20:27

       There's a flip to both sides of this.

   26. JOJonny20:28

       They, yeah, they, they, they exist on both, in both directions, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson20:31

       ... you need to understand. And I think that men should be interested in why women are motivated the way that they are, and women should be vice versa, because-

   28. JOJonny20:36

       And me- men should hold women to a higher standard of behavior as well. Is my, uh-

   29. CWChris Williamson20:39

       Just wait. We're going to get there.

   30. JOJonny20:40

       Okay. Oh, yeah.
9. 22:48 – 29:25

   Mate choice, dominance hierarchies, and sexual selectivity (evolutionary lens)

   1. CWChris Williamson22:48

      Human females are the only females in the animal kingdom that are sexually selective, right?

   2. GUGuest22:55

      Okay.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:55

      So if-

   4. GUGuest22:56

      Everyone else is just -

   5. Pretty sure it's different.

   6. CWChris Williamson22:57

      ... if a chimpanzee's on heat, she'll mate with the alpha male.

   7. GUGuest23:00

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson23:01

      But only because he's there.

   9. GUGuest23:02

      Got it. Big sponge.

   10. CWChris Williamson23:02

       Given the op- given the opportunity-

   11. GUGuest23:04

       Yep.

   12. CWChris Williamson23:04

       ... she'll mate with any male-

   13. GUGuest23:06

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:06

       ... when she's on heat.

   15. GUGuest23:06

       Okay. Got it.

   16. CWChris Williamson23:07

       The only reason she mates with the alpha male is because there's a threat of violence-

   17. GUGuest23:10

       Big sponge. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson23:10

       ... and because they're, because they're available.

   19. GUGuest23:12

       Big sponge for us. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson23:13

       Yeah. And he's got the biggest sponge.

   21. GUGuest23:14

       He will be. I bet he does.

   22. CWChris Williamson23:15

       He's got the biggest sponge -

   23. GUGuest23:16

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson23:16

       ... for us, he does. So, and I'm going to now move on to women mate across and up, dominance hierarchies.

   25. JOJonny23:25

       Okay.

   26. CWChris Williamson23:26

       Right?

   27. JOJonny23:26

       What do, what do men mate across and up?

   28. CWChris Williamson23:29

       Across and down.

   29. JOJonny23:30

       You think men just mate across and down?

   30. CWChris Williamson23:32

       (laughs)
10. 29:25 – 35:36

    Grindr/gay pride tangent: what it reveals about male sexual demand

    1. CWChris Williamson29:25

       Perfect, perfect example here is gay pride was recently moving through the UK-

    2. GUGuest29:29

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson29:30

       ... and I've got a number of gay friends who've been to a number of gay prides and they say to me... So, you know, lads, "lads", (laughs) on nights out, usually, you think, "Aye, they're up for it. They're up for it." And really the only hurdle they have to get over is whether or not the women are. Again, I know that we're regressing back a little bit-

    4. GUGuest29:47

       No, no. For, for, for the-

    5. CWChris Williamson29:47

       ... to just sex.

    6. GUGuest29:48

       ... sake of it, understanding it, yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson29:49

       Yeah.

    8. GUGuest29:49

       I agree.

    9. CWChris Williamson29:50

       The, um, for the purposes of just sex and presuming that that's the first place they go to that then leads to a relationship, whereas with women it may be a little bit more of a, a slow take off.

    10. GUGuest30:00

        Yep, yep.

    11. CWChris Williamson30:01

        Um, imagine the, the decision makers are women.

    12. GUGuest30:05

        Mm.

    13. CWChris Williamson30:06

        Now remove the decision maker and replace that with another man and he said-

    14. GUGuest30:10

        Mm.

    15. CWChris Williamson30:10

        ... "Mate, can you imagine what it's like at gay pride?"

    16. GUGuest30:13

        (laughs) .

    17. JOJonny30:13

        (laughs) .

    18. GUGuest30:13

        I mean, I... This is coming from the fucking source, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson30:16

        This may not be representative of all gay prides, and I'm sure that there's some men out there that play hard to get-

    20. JOJonny30:21

        (laughs) .

    21. GUGuest30:21

        (laughs) .

    22. CWChris Williamson30:21

        ... but Jesus Christ, men like to shag other men.

    23. GUGuest30:23

        Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson30:23

        Like-... they really, really like to fuck other men. And th- you go to th-, like, the gay pride events, and these are the stories that I hear back.

    25. GUGuest30:30

        Mm-hmm.

    26. CWChris Williamson30:31

        And they're like ... Some of the things that these guys see (laughs) -

    27. GUGuest30:35

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson30:35

        ... are like harrowing.

    29. GUGuest30:36

        Really?

    30. CWChris Williamson30:36

        It's like, I just can't believe how much fucking sex these guys are having.
11. 35:36 – 39:04

    Pickup artistry vs self-improvement: authenticity as the real advantage

    1. JOJonny35:36

       Well, so the, that, the, that's what pickup artistry is. And I, I suppose telling people to be polyamorous is trying to sideline and subvert this, this existing system-

    2. CWChris Williamson35:45

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JOJonny35:45

       ... so that you can cash in on it. And pickup artistry essentially is the same thing, but it's convincing someone for a short enough period that you are someone who you are not, maybe higher on, on a dominance hierarchy that is relevant to them.

    4. CWChris Williamson35:57

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JOJonny35:57

       So usually, like, clubbing and that kind of thing.

    6. CWChris Williamson36:00

       Yeah.

    7. JOJonny36:01

       And ...

    8. CWChris Williamson36:02

       Hoping you catch up.

    9. JOJonny36:03

       Yeah. I sound like such an old, but clubbing and that sort of, uh, activity.

    10. CWChris Williamson36:05

        You can go to a disco.

    11. JOJonny36:06

        (laughs) But, so I've, I've got friends who were really into pickup artistry for some time. And there's one guy, he's a German guy, like, really good-looking, like looks like a test tube baby. Like, and he was convinced that it was the pickup artistry. But I think it was just the fact that he's a good-looking, confident guy.

    12. CWChris Williamson36:22

        Mm-hmm.

    13. JOJonny36:23

        And it just, it just gave him things to say.

    14. CWChris Williamson36:25

        So I, I think pickup artistry gets a terrible name because-... it, terrible name, it's in the name-

    15. GUGuest36:30

        Mm-hmm.

    16. CWChris Williamson36:30

        ... pickup artistry, it's trying to just pick up girls, right? The whole point is that it's not just on the bedpost and this, that, and the other. But you could look at pickup artistry from a whole number of other, uh, angles, right? Like, what I've done over the last three years with the people that I've listened to and the things that I've read has made me a better potential partner, unequivocally, for any girl that I spend time with, and it's meant that m- my ability to become in a relationship with women has also improved.

    17. GUGuest37:01

        As a result of what?

    18. CWChris Williamson37:02

        Just understanding myself, doing introspective work.

    19. GUGuest37:04

        I see. Rep-

    20. CWChris Williamson37:05

        All the rest is... So is that pickup artistry?

    21. GUGuest37:06

        Well, pickup artistry's not one thing, I suppose, and it's, it's evolved over the years. Like, from, from my friend Lenny, I'm sure he won't mind, like, his... It was very algorithmic, it was very... And he was a computer scientist so he was very, like, focused on-

    22. CWChris Williamson37:18

        Mm-hmm, inputs and outputs.

    23. GUGuest37:19

        ... y- yeah, you say this and then you, you alpha the, the toad and then you neg the whatever-

    24. CWChris Williamson37:24

        Yeah.

    25. GUGuest37:24

        ... and you do the lemon. And it's like, this was all, it, it was all very formulaic. And he found that it made him quite depressed. Uh, in fact it was, it was him and s- someone else, but the, the other guy I'm thinking of said that it made him feel very depressed because it created this disconnect between the person that he had to put across-

    26. CWChris Williamson37:40

        Mm-hmm.

    27. GUGuest37:41

        ... to be attractive to women-

    28. CWChris Williamson37:42

        Mm-hmm.

    29. GUGuest37:43

        ... and the person who he really was.

    30. CWChris Williamson37:45

        Yeah. It's like being able to lift on performance-enhancing drugs-
12. 39:04 – 47:41

    Cheating, novelty, and temptation: ‘different’ beats ‘better’

    1. CWChris Williamson39:04

       How many, how many girls do you know that have cheated on men versus men that have cheated on girls? 'Cause I know it at a two-to-one or a three-to-one ratio, going men to women.

    2. GUGuest39:10

       So do you, do you think the motivations are different between why men cheat and why women cheat?

    3. CWChris Williamson39:14

       Yeah.

    4. GUGuest39:15

       'Cause I'll... Yeah, the... I can't remember who it was, some relationships guy saying men cheat because they want sex or they want variety.

    5. CWChris Williamson39:21

       Mm-hmm.

    6. GUGuest39:22

       Women cheat because they feel, uh, uh, uh it not attended to enough.

    7. CWChris Williamson39:26

       So here we, here we go. Have you heard me use the Family Guy analogy before?

    8. GUGuest39:31

       Oh, yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson39:31

       This is my favorite analogy that I use for dating.

    10. GUGuest39:33

        (laughs) There's a lot of, uh, wisdom in that.

    11. CWChris Williamson39:35

        I love this, fucking love this.

    12. GUGuest39:36

        The Rises are clearly quite smart guys.

    13. CWChris Williamson39:37

        So anyone who's watched Family Guy before, Peter is stood at the window watching Bonnie, who's Joe's wife, out of the window. And he's got binoculars and he's looking at her getting changed out the window, and he's making, like under his voice going like, "She's really hot," and sort of making man noises. (growls)

    14. GUGuest39:53

        (clears throat)

    15. CWChris Williamson39:53

        And then Stewie comes in and he walks along to the side and he goes, "What are you doing, fat man?"

    16. GUGuest39:57

        (clears throat)

    17. CWChris Williamson39:57

        Looks at the thing. He goes, looks out to the window and he sees Bonnie getting changed and he goes, "I don't understand. You've got this smoking hot wife at home. Why would you be looking at... Oh, I see." It doesn't need to be better, it just needs to be different.

    18. GUGuest40:12

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson40:13

        And the value of novelty in a relationship, of something new-

    20. GUGuest40:18

        Mm.

    21. CWChris Williamson40:19

        ... cannot be understated.

    22. GUGuest40:20

        Biochemically speaking as well, like, it's, it-

    23. CWChris Williamson40:22

        Mm. We can get onto that as well, the-

    24. GUGuest40:24

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson40:24

        ... the, um, genetic lottery, as it's called.

    26. GUGuest40:27

        Mm-hmm. Yep.

    27. CWChris Williamson40:27

        But the value of novelty can't be understated.

    28. GUGuest40:30

        Mm.

    29. CWChris Williamson40:30

        It doesn't need to be better-

    30. GUGuest40:31

        Mm.
13. 47:41 – 52:29

    Monogamy & modern overstimulation: Sex at Dawn, porn novelty, and desensitization

    1. CWChris Williamson47:41

       We're doing, we're gonna move onto the monogamy thing.

    2. JOJonny47:43

       Oh, okay.

    3. CWChris Williamson47:43

       But this is gonna be evolutionary basis for monogamy.

    4. JOJonny47:46

       Cool.

    5. CWChris Williamson47:46

       So anyone who's read Sex at Dawn by Chris Ryan will-

    6. YUYusef47:49

       I have not.

    7. CWChris Williamson47:49

       Okay. So, uh-

    8. YUYusef47:50

       It's an Aubrey Marcus recommendation, right?

    9. CWChris Williamson47:52

       Yeah. Well, Aubrey Marcus said the first time that he touched another woman that wasn't his wife he was physically sick.

    10. YUYusef47:57

        And the first time his wife brought someone else home he was physically sick. (laughs)

    11. JOJonny48:00

        Is he, is that how it was at

    12. GUGuest48:01

        Like, sounds great, Aubrey.

    13. JOJonny48:02

        ... at the hospital, he was like ... Yeah, seems to be retching for a bit.

    14. CWChris Williamson48:02

        Great, mate, thank you. Seize, seize, seize that day, mate, but get the bucket first.

    15. YUYusef48:07

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson48:07

        Here's the thing, he, he was like, "I, I was on all fours dry retching for, for weeks, and, but then I broke through the barrier, and actually now it's really rewarding. All right." And you're like, "Oh, okay. Cool, just-"

    17. GUGuest48:15

        Yay. (laughs)

    18. YUYusef48:15

        Sounds fucking great, Aubrey.

    19. GUGuest48:16

        Clap for Aubrey.

    20. YUYusef48:17

        That's awesome.

    21. CWChris Williamson48:17

        You know where he is at the moment? He's in the middle of the ... he's in Peru, having-

    22. YUYusef48:21

        Drinking green smoothies.

    23. CWChris Williamson48:22

        Yeah, drinking green smoothies.

    24. YUYusef48:23

        Special ones.

    25. CWChris Williamson48:24

        Over and over again.

    26. GUGuest48:25

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson48:26

        So, anthropological basis for monogamy. Um, there's a, to preface this.

    28. GUGuest48:34

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson48:34

        There is, I think it's called Explained on Netflix. And it is a series of 10 to 15 minute videos on-... a variety of subjects. There's one on K-pop.

    30. YUYusef48:47

        (laughs)
14. 52:29 – 1:06:40

    Advice for ‘deep’/non-average men: honesty, niche appeal, and winning the “cup final”

    1. CWChris Williamson52:29

       So here's, here's one of the things that I wanted to move on to. And this... One of the problems is, you may be able to jump in and actually provide a framework for men that they can lay down for women, as I have done women for men. I haven't been able to and I haven't got it in my head. What I do have is a bit of advice for men who want to date. And I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this.

    2. YUYusef52:50

       Okay.

    3. CWChris Williamson52:51

       So men who are, um, outside of the norm... Let's say that there's a bell curve distribution of people who are normal.

    4. YUYusef53:03

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson53:03

       And by normal, that is similar interests, similar mindset, similar everything.

    6. YUYusef53:09

       Like nine-to-five job, like football.

    7. CWChris Williamson53:11

       Everything. Yeah, whatever it might be.

    8. YUYusef53:13

       Like reading the... Reading magazines.

    9. CWChris Williamson53:13

       Wherever the, wherever the median falls, wherever the median falls-

    10. YUYusef53:15

        Right.

    11. CWChris Williamson53:15

        ... they are closer to that.

    12. YUYusef53:17

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson53:18

        By its very definition, the deeper that you are as a person, the more contrary, subtle, or alarming your views are going to be to society at large.

    14. YUYusef53:27

        (laughs) I love the idea of an alarming view.

    15. CWChris Williamson53:29

        Hmm.

    16. YUYusef53:30

        But, yeah. You're right.

    17. CWChris Williamson53:31

        It's right.

    18. YUYusef53:31

        You're right.

    19. CWChris Williamson53:31

        And given the choice between acceptability and honesty, most of us usually would choose the former.

    20. YUYusef53:39

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CWChris Williamson53:40

        Okay? So-

    22. JOJonny53:41

        Very Alain de Botton.

    23. YUYusef53:44

        (laughs)

    24. JOJonny53:44

        (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson53:44

        What's that?

    26. JOJonny53:45

        That's not how you pronounce his name.

    27. YUYusef53:46

        Alain de Botton.

    28. CWChris Williamson53:47

        Alain de Botton?

    29. JOJonny53:48

        Alain de Botton.

    30. CWChris Williamson53:48

        Do you know why that is?
15. 1:06:40 – 1:08:15

    Wrap-up: next episode plans (choosing the right partner) and sign-off

    1. CWChris Williamson1:06:40

       The next question is, how do you know that the partner is the right partner?

    2. JOJonny1:06:45

       Oh. Do you, did you want to do one on monogamy as well?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:06:47

       Got an en- got an entire framework for it.

    4. JOJonny1:06:49

       Who did?

    5. CWChris Williamson1:06:49

       Who knows? But it's, that's what all those notes are.

    6. JOJonny1:06:51

       'Cause I, I was gonna say can we, can we get onto these, uh-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:06:54

       It's a very big, it's a very different path. Well, I think that we can probably close this one there.

    8. JOJonny1:07:02

       Okay.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:07:02

       I think that we can draw a line under this podcast. And I'd said before we started this one I wanted this one to be as close to serious as we can do.

    10. JOJonny1:07:09

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:07:09

        We're about to roll into a Q&A, which is definitely not going to be serious.

    12. JOJonny1:07:13

        Absolutely not.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:07:13

        Video guideen, I have, um ...

    14. JOJonny1:07:16

        Guideen.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:07:16

        I've run out of battery on the G7 X.

    16. JOJonny1:07:19

        (laughs) Oh, no.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:07:19

        So FYI, we can get around about bang on an hour of three 20-minute videos in there. So if you're listening, please subscribe to the Modern Wisdom YouTube channel. We will be coming back at some point soon when we've got fresh cognitive capacity.

    18. JOJonny1:07:36

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:07:36

        And we will be doing ... So it's whether to decide to get into a relationship or not, how to decide who to be in a relationship with, and then some principles to, to see if that person's a viable long-term partner.

    20. JOJonny1:07:51

        So everything from what we've discussed forwards.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:07:54

        Onward. I think that's really cool.

    22. JOJonny1:07:56

        Great. Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:07:56

        I've enjoyed today. That's been awesome. Don't forget to subscribe. Please make sure that you follow Propain Fitness, @PropainFitness on everything online. @Chris Willex on Twitter. All the rest of the stuff. Um-

    24. JOJonny1:08:06

        You're-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:08:07

        He's not, he's not going to add the text and it's gonna make me look like a-

    26. JOJonny1:08:09

        Are you okay? See? This is (bleep)

    27. CWChris Williamson1:08:11

        (laughs) You're having a fit, aren't you? He looked like he was trying to land a plane.

    28. JOJonny1:08:13

        (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:08:38