Secret Hollywood Rituals, Shane Gillis & Toxic Masculinity - Mark Normand

Chris Williamson 0:00 Marc Normand, welcome to the show.

Mark Normand 0:01 Hey, good to be back. What is this, big three?

Chris Williamson 0:03 Three, man. Third time.

Mark Normand 0:05 Third time and two from the airport.

Chris Williamson 0:07 (laughs)

Mark Normand 0:08 I come straight here.

Chris Williamson 0:09 Yeah, fly in. It's Women's History Month.

Mark Normand 0:11 Oh, no.

Chris Williamson 0:13 Don't say that.

Mark Normand 0:14 Wow.

Chris Williamson 0:15 We just exited Black History Month.

Mark Normand 0:16 That's true. Wow.

Chris Williamson 0:20 (laughs)

Mark Normand 0:20 That was a tough month just like... I feel like there's more black on black, uh, talk and trash than before.

Chris Williamson 0:26 How so?

Mark Normand 0:27 Well, you got the Katt Williams, which was like the Black Epstein list-

Chris Williamson 0:30 (laughs)

Mark Normand 0:30 ... you know. And then like, uh, what's her face did it, uh, Mo'Nique did it after hi-... I don't know, they just feel... And now like P. Diddy is gettin'... You see all the P. Diddy stuff?

Chris Williamson 0:41 No.

Mark Normand 0:41 Oh my God, you gotta get on Black Twitter.

Chris Williamson 0:43 (laughs)

Mark Normand 0:44 It's wild.

Chris Williamson 0:44 Blitter?

Mark Normand 0:45 Blitter, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:46 What, what's P. Diddy been involved in?

Mark Normand 0:48 Uh, P. Diddy... Oh, Black Twitter be Malcolm X. All right.

Chris Williamson 0:52 (laughs)

Mark Normand 0:52 Um, P. Diddy is, uh, getting called gay and apparently hooked up with a bunch of young boys and stuff. So-

Chris Williamson 1:00 He's getting called gay and apparently hooked up... So it's like the R. Kelly 2.0. It's the R. Kelly sequel.

Mark Normand 1:04 Yeah, no urine. Sans urine. But, uh, yeah, apparently he had like a Bieber moment an an Usher thing and a Meek Mill and all this, so-

Chris Williamson 1:13 Jeez.

Mark Normand 1:14 ... check it out.

Chris Williamson 1:15 Yeah, I, uh... Watching that Katt Williams Club Shay Shay appearance made me realize that Black people live in an entirely different universe, like linguistically.

Mark Normand 1:27 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:27 Like, that's not a surprise to, to anyone, but you j-... Just seeing that kind of a conversation. You know when someone comes in, they've got a very strong accent, and you kind of tune-

Mark Normand 1:36 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:36 ... the radio in your head? You're like, "Where am I piki-" And then you kind of hit the rhythm and you're like, "Ah, there we are."

Mark Normand 1:42 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 1:42 It took a little while for me to th-... Because... And it's not just that. It was, references are different and the cadence that they-

Mark Normand 1:48 Sure.

Chris Williamson 1:48 ... speak at's different and the, the, the way that they use pauses is, is different and the colloquial terms that they use. Everything is so different.

Mark Normand 1:57 Yeah. Well, I feel like they, Black people come up with all these, these terms and lingo and then we take it like a year later. Whitey'll get it a year later and then we fuck it up and then Black peop-... Like, we need some new shit. Like, white people are still saying bling.

Chris Williamson 2:12 Right.

Mark Normand 2:12 You know, and stuff like that.

Chris Williamson 2:13 So we're permanently chasing down the cool of Black people, is that what you're saying?

Mark Normand 2:16 Yeah. But we have our... Whitey has its, uh, uh, con- contribution. Like, we'll invent basketball and then Black people will-

Chris Williamson 2:24 Come and be much better at it.

Mark Normand 2:25 Yeah, yeah. Or like, we'll invent a car and they'll put a rim on it or whatever.

Chris Williamson 2:29 Okay, so they're... You're saying that they're, like, modding all of white culture and making it better.

Mark Normand 2:34 Well, better, different, their own, whatever you wanna call it. But I think we help each other. There's a lot of like, "Hey, whitey steals everything," but like, you know, there's some back and forth.

Chris Williamson 2:44 I understand. What month would you have if you could design one? Ryan Long said that he wanted to have a premature parade, which was for guys that nut too quickly.

Mark Normand 2:53 Oh, (laughs) that's fun. That should be in February, it's the shortest month.

Chris Williamson 2:57 (laughs)

Mark Normand 2:57 That's true. Uh, jeez, I don't know. What would I take? I would take, uh, premature, maybe a flaccid, flaccid month.

Chris Williamson 3:06 (laughs)

Mark Normand 3:07 No. I'll, I'll go something off, uh, off dick.

Chris Williamson 3:11 Will you s-

Mark Normand 3:12 Sleepin' month.

Chris Williamson 3:13 ... Sleeping in month?

Mark Normand 3:14 Yes.

Chris Williamson 3:15 That would be nice, to have a line. What I didn't realize, there's basically... Every Friday every single week is like a, "I'm, where the hell am I going on a plane today?" day-

Mark Normand 3:27 Mm.

Chris Williamson 3:27 ... for all comedians. That you guys-

Mark Normand 3:30 Yes.

Chris Williamson 3:30 ... jump on planes and, you know, if I end up texting someone on a Friday, it's, uh, "Just about to... I'm ge-... I'm getting on a plane to Phoenix," or, "I'm getting on a plane to Utah." "I'm getting-

Mark Normand 3:38 Right.

Chris Williamson 3:39 ... on a plane to wherever." Like, there's always that. That's it, that's what your Fridays consist of, Friday mornings.

Mark Normand 3:43 Yeah, totally. Like, I'm here on a Thursday and this feels foreign. It feels weird to not be on a Friday flying out.

Chris Williamson 3:50 (laughs)

Mark Normand 3:50 But yeah, by the way, if I'm takin' a month, let's go o- o- offended month. Nobody can get in trouble month. So you can just say horrific shit in this month and not get in trouble. That would be fun. Like a purge.

Chris Williamson 4:02 Uh, oh God, yeah. Well, you could do that for... That would be nice even just as an amnesty, like a joke amnesty.

Mark Normand 4:07 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 4:08 12 hours, you can say anything you want, no one's allowed to get mad at you.

Mark Normand 4:11 Although the N-word, it would get out of hand. The first day would be ugly.

Chris Williamson 4:15 That, yeah, maybe not.

Chris Williamson 4:17 W- uh, speaking of Utah, I went to Utah for the first time and you taught me, (laughs) you taught me about Mormon soaking.

Mark Normand 4:24 Yes. Are we going right into soaking?

Chris Williamson 4:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Mark Normand 4:27 I was just in Salt Lake. They, they still do it. I brought it up and the crowd goes wild.

Chris Williamson 4:31 What's g-... Can you explain for the uninitiated? Pull this sucker down a little bit for me.

Mark Normand 4:35 Sure.

Chris Williamson 4:36 Can you, uh... What, what is soaking?

Mark Normand 4:37 Soaking is they can't have sex or they can't thrust, so they're allowed to put it in and just hold it there like a gun in a holster. And then they have all these loopholes, much like the Hasidic Jews, they have all these loopholes where a kid can jump on the bed next to them, and so it'll cause a humping movement without actually humping, 'cause the kid was jumping on the bed. (laughs) It's their dumb religion.

Chris Williamson 5:05 That is the maddest thing, but I didn't realize. I... It's the first time I've been to Utah, first time I've been to Park City, first time I've been to Salt Lake City. And, uh, I didn't realize that coffee isn't allowed-

Mark Normand 5:16 Yes.

Chris Williamson 5:17 ... but energy drinks are allowed.

Mark Normand 5:19 Yes. Loophole.

Chris Williamson 5:21 Uh, tattoos are not allowed.

Mark Normand 5:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:24 But breast augmentation surgery is allowed.

Mark Normand 5:27 Oh, is that right?

Chris Williamson 5:29 Yeah, so you can get cosmetic surgery but you can't get a tattoo.

Mark Normand 5:31 Wow.

Chris Williamson 5:31 You can drink like Newtonic or Monster or whatever but you can't drink coffee. Uh, and there's just... I don't know, I feel like the litigiousness should've been more watertight.

Mark Normand 5:44 Yeah, yeah. Well, I think these rules were made before they'd thought of Red Bull.

Chris Williamson 5:48 Yes, yes.

Mark Normand 5:48 You know? So they're like, "Ah, coffee's out," but you go there and the people are oppressed. They're great comedy crowds 'cause I think they're like, "Oh, he said that horrible thing that felt so good. I can't fuck my daughter," or whatever, you know?

Chris Williamson 6:01 (laughs)

Mark Normand 6:01 So...... the whole thing is wacky, but when you think about it, uh, Sarah Silverman had a great bit about how we, we make fun of Scientology, but it's just 'cause it's new. If someone brought up Christianity today, you'd be like, "Wait, wait. She got pregnant without fucking, there's a baby Jesus. Who? Wise men. Uh, don't eat fish on Friday." Whatever it is, you know, like, it's just new. And I think the same with Mormonism. It's just, it's, it seems silly, but it's just 'cause we're not in it.

Chris Williamson 6:27 Yeah, that's interesting. I, uh, I heard a rumor, I don't know if this is true, that the third-largest cash reserves in the world are held by the Mormon Church.

Mark Normand 6:37 Really?

Chris Williamson 6:37 That someone made them open up their accounts. Uh, maybe there was some investigation and obviously they're a s- a nonprofit-

Mark Normand 6:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:46 ... or whatever. But just endless numbers of crazy rich people-

Mark Normand 6:50 Wow.

Chris Williamson 6:50 ... are Mormons and contributing to the Mormon Church. And apparently, the Mormon Church basically built all of Salt Lake as well.

Mark Normand 6:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:57 Uh, so-

Mark Normand 6:58 It's, have you been to the campus? The Brigham Young?

Chris Williamson 7:00 No, what's that?

Mark Normand 7:01 That's their university, that's the Mormon university. Beautiful campus, ornate, like crazy architecture. Really nice. These religions have so much money. Scientology has crazy real estate in, like, Clearwater, Florida, and LA. Crazy money.

Chris Williamson 7:15 They're really nice. My, uh, assistant is Mormon, and he's phenomenal. He went and did his missionary thing, uh, came back, immediately married, immediately moved in with his, with his wife. I spent Christmas Eve with him and the wife and the parents-in-law at the Ripon Cathedral-

Mark Normand 7:31 The Mormon?

Chris Williamson 7:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great.

Mark Normand 7:32 Yeah, yeah, they're nice people.

Chris Williamson 7:33 They're fan- fantastic. Just some weird-

Mark Normand 7:36 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:37 ... like sub-rules that-

Mark Normand 7:38 Well, what about the polygamy, is that real?

Chris Williamson 7:40 I don't know. What's the, that they can have multiple wives?

Mark Normand 7:43 Yeah, well, that was Big Love, that was, there was a couple reality shows about it. I don't know if that's real though, it might, might be outdated.

Chris Williamson 7:49 I think that they're trying... That there's a current push at the moment to make polygamy the, uh, be ratified in the same way as gay marriage was.

Mark Normand 7:58 Oh.

Chris Williamson 7:59 So that you can have, like, a throuple marriage.

Mark Normand 8:01 Ooh. Ooh.

Chris Williamson 8:01 That's not, that's not something legally that's recognized at the moment.

Mark Normand 8:05 That's true.

Chris Williamson 8:05 If you get married to two people-

Mark Normand 8:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:08 ... three people get married.

Mark Normand 8:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:10 Uh, that's not, you don't have the same sort of legal protections. And I don't know, maybe this is partway between kink shaming and-

Mark Normand 8:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:17 ... and, and like you, you don't know w- the way that we structure our new world's relationship.

Mark Normand 8:23 Well, that's the problem now is if something's new and you push back on it, everybody's like, "You're a bigot, you're close-minded." But that's a slippery slope 'cause now we're getting into MAPs, minor-attracted person. You know, like you, you just, if you shoot that down, n- now maybe you look like an asshole. And you're like, "No, no, I'm just trying to help kids."

Chris Williamson 8:41 Yeah.

Mark Normand 8:42 You see what I'm saying?

Chris Williamson 8:43 Well, I think anything that's new, uh, anyone that has any desire, and that desire being told is wrong-

Mark Normand 8:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:49 ... quite quickly gets accused of-

Mark Normand 8:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:51 ... kink shaming or this is, i- i- it's some sort of judgment on them as a person.

Mark Normand 8:56 Yes.

Chris Williamson 8:57 And this is definitely not the way that it should be.

Mark Normand 8:58 Right. Well, progress is good, but people always, they always go too far. They're like, "Let's see what else we can get away with. You know, we got this, we got that, we got this. Now how about that?" And you go, "Well, that's crazy." It's like smoking. All right, hear me out there, legs. Hold on.

Chris Williamson 9:14 (laughs)

Mark Normand 9:15 First it was like, "Hey, you can't smoke in the restaurant this half." You're like, "All right." Then you're like, "Hey, you gotta smoke at the bar." Then it's like, "Hey, you gotta smoke at the, uh, uh, uh, outside." Then you gotta smoke 10 feet away from the entrance. And it just keeps going and going. Now it's like cigarettes are illegal. So you gotta kinda hold the line at some point. It's good to have progress, but I feel like people get a little power hungry.

Chris Williamson 9:38 Yeah. Did you see, uh, Google's

Chris Williamson 9:40 Gemini thing?

Mark Normand 9:41 Yes.

Chris Williamson 9:42 And that's-

Mark Normand 9:42 Hilarious.

Chris Williamson 9:43 Yeah, that's the new, like, battleground for woke and stuff. I, I don't know how much that is indicative of Google's underlying woke-

Mark Normand 9:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:53 ... desires to, you know, trans the entire world and stuff like that. It totally might be. I read the press release where they were apologizing and it's-

Mark Normand 10:00 Oh, really?

Chris Williamson 10:01 Yeah. The, the guy put out (laughs) , he was like, um, "We, we made some errors basically." Like it was, and he's like, "Oh yeah, no shit." Like-

Mark Normand 10:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:08 ... it's the biggest news story in the world from the biggest company in the world that's 90% of the entire planet's search volume, and now everyone is skeptical about whether or not your company's got good underlying principles. So-

Mark Normand 10:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:20 Yeah. And it just, it didn't seem very satisfactory to me. But w- what can you say? I suppose in that situation, what are you gonna say-

Mark Normand 10:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:25 ... that's gonna fix the problem?

Mark Normand 10:27 I know, but did you hear that it's, they're mad at Elon Musk? Oh, so the, the, the guy who invented it got, got into a fight with Elon Musk and was like, "I'm gonna do this to get back at him." That's a rumor. Call in if you know what I'm talking about. But that, that's out there. There's Bill Ackman-

Chris Williamson 10:44 Yep.

Mark Normand 10:44 ... and then there's another guy.

Chris Williamson 10:46 Okay.

Mark Normand 10:46 The other guy hates Elon. And so he was like, "Let's go, let's go all in, super-"

Chris Williamson 10:52 I, I mean, that's the worst. Uh, whatever, whoever designed the optics of that thing didn't really get it right. But-

Mark Normand 10:57 But it's a, it's a sh- it's a microcosm for what's going on in the whole country.

Chris Williamson 11:01 How so?

Mark Normand 11:02 Well, it's just like, "Hey, uh, let's kinda go not, let's go no whitey, let's, uh, get a lot of diversity, and all, diversity's great, and, you know, blah, white people have done horrible things." But when you're going inaccurate, that's when we gotta cut it.

Chris Williamson 11:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 11:16 It's like what I was saying before, we went too far.

Chris Williamson 11:18 Mm.

Mark Normand 11:19 Like, you know, diversity's good, but when you make, uh, the Nazis Asian on AI (laughs) , you're like, "Well, what are we doing here?" Now it's not even accurate. It's one thing to be nice and progressive, but now we're inaccurate.

Chris Williamson 11:30 Yeah, they managed to piss off the left by having black Nazis and the right-

Mark Normand 11:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:35 ... by having black Founding Fathers.

Mark Normand 11:36 Right (laughs) . Right, exactly.

Chris Williamson 11:38 Yeah, it was impressive.

Mark Normand 11:39 Yeah, what if you type in racist? Will it be, go to Back to Black?

Chris Williamson 11:43 Well, I saw that-

Mark Normand 11:44 Or Klan member?

Chris Williamson 11:44 ... they'd been able to, uh, they'd been able to make non-racist images actually very racist-... by saying, uh, "Show me an image of 16th century philosophers drinking grape juice and eating watermelon."

Mark Normand 11:58 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:58 And it was four Black-

Mark Normand 12:00 Oh, that's great.

Chris Williamson 12:01 ... philosophers drinking grape juice and eating watermelon.

Mark Normand 12:04 Wow, that's a nice little move there.

Chris Williamson 12:06 Yeah, they, uh-

Mark Normand 12:07 Nice move.

Chris Williamson 12:08 So talk to me about

Chris Williamson 12:09 New York. How's New York doing at the moment?

Mark Normand 12:10 Ah, it's good. I mean, the news about New York is like, "Hey, there's a migrant eating out your wife at every moment, and uh, you're gonna get killed by a hobo." And look, the guys are still jerking off. The migrant thing is crazy. I went to Mexico City for New Year's just to give 'em, give it back, you know? Like-

Chris Williamson 12:28 (laughs)

Mark Normand 12:28 ... "Hey, how do you like it? I got a honky here." But, uh, the migrant thing is kinda crazy, just 'cause they're getting credit cards and all this stuff. So it's like-

Chris Williamson 12:38 And, uh, where are they being deposited?

Mark Normand 12:39 They're in a lot of hotels.

Chris Williamson 12:41 In New York, New York?

Mark Normand 12:42 In New York, yeah. So some hotel owner's like, "Oh, fuck. How'd I get screwed?"

Chris Williamson 12:46 And, uh, who- who's telling the hotel owners that they have to do this?

Mark Normand 12:49 I think Mayor Adams.

Chris Williamson 12:51 Right. So this is Manhattan, or what?

Mark Normand 12:53 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's-

Chris Williamson 12:55 Uh.

Mark Normand 12:55 I think they're spread out, but it's mostly Manhattan. I've seen 'em come in on buses. It's pretty wild.

Chris Williamson 12:59 Okay, so is it just because there's lots of room in New York that- what, like- 'cause you- I wouldn't think Mexico border-

Mark Normand 13:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:07 ... to New York isn't exactly a short trip.

Mark Normand 13:10 No.

Chris Williamson 13:10 It's probably like, it's as far as you can get.

Mark Normand 13:12 Totally. So they're- they're on those buses. It's gotta be hell. I feel for the people.

Chris Williamson 13:17 Yep.

Mark Normand 13:17 But, you know?

Chris Williamson 13:18 That's the worst part of the journey. It's not the-

Mark Normand 13:20 Yeah (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 13:20 ... the dude trying to get you across the state line-

Mark Normand 13:23 Right.

Chris Williamson 13:24 ... illegally. It's the fucking four-day bus journey to get to-

Mark Normand 13:26 Exactly. And, uh, it's gotta be rough for these folks, but I think it's also, wasn't Texas like, "Hey, how do you like it?" Wasn't that a thing? "We're sending you the buses of migrants."

Chris Williamson 13:38 Yeah, f- didn't they put them in, they put them in some really nice retreat some place that rich people go on holiday?

Mark Normand 13:44 Martha's Vineyard.

Chris Williamson 13:44 Martha's Vineyard, and said, "We're depositing them all here," and then there was big kick-offs.

Mark Normand 13:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:48 Yeah, I, uh, uh, there's this big fight at the moment about whether or not it's a state problem or it's a federal problem.

Mark Normand 13:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 13:55 And it seems, in the law, to be pretty much unequivocally a federal problem. It's like the state doesn't get to choose who comes in and out of the state from other countries.

Mark Normand 14:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:02 It's like the country first, but then... Yeah, I don't know, man. I, I, uh, it's w- it's bizarre that this is happening to New York, which is supposed to be this, you know, like flagship-

Mark Normand 14:13 I know.

Chris Williamson 14:13 ... of America.

Mark Normand 14:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:15 And like, a super tourist hotspot. I went to the Bahamas, uh, about six months ago and I was talking to the dude that was driving me. Interesting. Bahamas, because it was settled by the Brits and then developed by the Brits, they drive on our side of the road. So they drive on the left-hand side of the road-

Mark Normand 14:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:33 ... but because they're only 30 minutes off the coast of Miami-

Mark Normand 14:37 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 14:37 ... they drive American cars.

Mark Normand 14:39 Oh, funny.

Chris Williamson 14:39 So you're driving, you're driving a left-hand drive car on the left-hand side of the road.

Mark Normand 14:44 Weird.

Chris Williamson 14:44 Which is a nightmare.

Mark Normand 14:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:46 Uh, but it's all, uh, British, uh, d- road markings, British speed limit.

Mark Normand 14:50 Ha!

Chris Williamson 14:50 It's brilliant, uh, which I like. Anyway, I was asking the guy, the, the Uber driver, and I was saying, um, "What's the crime like around here?" You know? "W- w- is there any areas that I shouldn't go to?" I was only there for two days. I managed to get myself into gang problems that would've been definitely a me thing.

Mark Normand 15:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:02 And, uh, he said there is sort of, um, you know, violence and gang activity on the island, but every tourist should be pretty reliably safe.

Mark Normand 15:13 Mm.

Chris Williamson 15:13 I went, "Oh, that's interesting. Why?" He said because if gangs do stuff to locals or to other gangs, the police sort of treat them as you'd expect. But if they do it to tourists, they come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Mark Normand 15:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:25 Because if there is negative tourism information being-

Mark Normand 15:29 Ah!

Chris Williamson 15:29 ... put out to the world, that hurts everybody.

Mark Normand 15:32 That's good.

Chris Williamson 15:32 It's completely dependent. But you'd think that the same would be true in New York.

Mark Normand 15:36 Yeah, well we-

Chris Williamson 15:37 It's so dependent on tourism.

Mark Normand 15:39 But I think the country has got this thing going on now where it's like, "You, we already got you. These people are new, so we're gonna be nicer to them." That, that kinda feels like the general consensus in the world. You know? Like, "Hey, this is, we, we're already, you already live here. These people are new, we gotta be nice to them."

Chris Williamson 15:56 Mm.

Mark Normand 15:56 I don't know. That just feels like it's in the air now. Where it used to be the opposite. It used to be like, "We're Americans, we come first." And I'm not saying that one is right or wrong, but I thi- I do think that has flipped in, uh, society lately. But I think we should send a busload of drag queens to Texas, just, you know, as like a little revenge.

Chris Williamson 16:15 (laughs)

Mark Normand 16:15 What do you guys hate the most? We'll send trans drag queens to Texas just to get you back.

Chris Williamson 16:21 (Laughs) Wow, RuPaul Texas.

Mark Normand 16:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:26 That would be interesting, with everyone, everyone in a pink fluffy cowboy hat, like they're on a bachelorette party in Nashville.

Mark Normand 16:33 Right, right. Well, the problem is, uh, th- is the bail reform. Not to be that guy.

Chris Williamson 16:38 I don't know about-

Mark Normand 16:38 You know about this?

Chris Williamson 16:39 I don't know what that is.

Mark Normand 16:39 Oh, this is bad. So this is the thing where all these people commit crimes and they get out immediately. So like, then they'll commit another crime and everybody's like, "Why is this person out on the street?" And you're like, "Well, they got bailed out." That's a new law.

Chris Williamson 16:51 Who's bailing them?

Mark Normand 16:52 Bail reform. I think it's a, if they're not committing a crime with a gun, you can't keep 'em in prison. Yeah, you haven't heard this?

Chris Williamson 16:59 No.

Mark Normand 17:00 This is what's fucking up the city. It's th- more than the migrants or anything else. Yeah, give, we need JayMo here to Google that.

Chris Williamson 17:06 Yeah, pull it up.

Mark Normand 17:07 Pull it up.

Chris Williamson 17:07 Okay.

Mark Normand 17:08 But, uh, bail reform is, is really bad. So like, if you, if I hit you with a hammer, I'll go to jail and get out that day, because it's not a gun.

Chris Williamson 17:16 But if you hit me with a gun-

Mark Normand 17:18 Yeah (laughs) , yeah, my pistol whip.

Chris Williamson 17:20 ... it might be an, might be an issue.

Mark Normand 17:21 Well, did you hear about the four migrants who beat up the cop?

Chris Williamson 17:23 No.

Mark Normand 17:24 Oh, man. All right, well, yeah, that was a big, big news story in New York, and, uh, they went to jail and got out that day. And then they got out of prison, they're on, on the news like, "We're back out, baby. Fuck all you guys."

Chris Williamson 17:36 Oh my God.

Mark Normand 17:37 So it's, uh, the morale is low-

Chris Williamson 17:39 Yeah, I bet it is.

Mark Normand 17:40 ... in the city.

Chris Williamson 17:41 And what's being, you know, day-to-day living in ex- Because I presumably... Like, every time that I go to New York, I just do the full tourist thing. I always end up on Times Square, even if I don't mean to be there.

Mark Normand 17:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:52 Like, I just, I, I don't really know where I'm going, and you meet people, you're like, "Meet in the middle of Times Square." Like, it's the only fucking landmark that you know.

Mark Normand 17:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:59 Um-I mean, obviously, that's not you. You know you're gonna be going to work, you're gonna be going to shows. You're gonna be, you're gonna know the routes to take.

Mark Normand 18:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:05 So as a felt sense of someone living in New York, how often are you interacting with the, uh, downfall of the city?

Mark Normand 18:14 Not too often. Just 'cause I, I know my route. I know I got my head on a swivel. I've been mugged a couple times already my first year there. So I-I've got it down pretty good. I- It's kinda when you got the map open and you got the checkered plaid shirt on and the polo, and you're like, "Hey-"

Chris Williamson 18:29 Wide eyes with the, the camera around the neck.

Mark Normand 18:31 Yeah, exactly, exactly. Khaki shorts and that whole thing. So that's kinda when you get fucked, but, uh, I, I still love it. Like, I, I travel every weekend. And you go to Salt Lake City and it's pretty, but I'm like, "There's nothing going on. There's no energy." You know, I'm walking around, there's no one on the sidewalk. I need that part. So I like New York for that reason, and I'll probably never leave.

Chris Williamson 18:52 I arrived during SantaCon-

Mark Normand 18:54 (clears throat) Oh, wow.

Chris Williamson 18:54 ... which is like an absolute fever dream.

Mark Normand 18:58 Yeah (laughs) . That's wild. And a little offensive to Jews.

Chris Williamson 19:02 Why?

Mark Normand 19:02 Well, they don't celebrate Christmas, so we're really in their face with it.

Chris Williamson 19:05 HanukkahCon, we could do.

Mark Normand 19:07 Ooh.

Chris Williamson 19:07 That'd be nice.

Mark Normand 19:08 Yeah (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 19:09 Yeah.

Mark Normand 19:10 HanukkahCon.

Chris Williamson 19:11 Uh, talking about the Katt Williams thing. I was listening to him speak to Rogan, and he was saying that Hollywood is not really there to entertain you. Propaganda in Hollywood is built into the ingredients list. Your kind of, like-

Mark Normand 19:24 Wait, can you, can you translate that?

Chris Williamson 19:26 Hollywood is not really there to entertain you. Propaganda in Hollywood is built into the ingredients list. Basically that-

Mark Normand 19:31 What does that mean?

Chris Williamson 19:31 That, I think a lot of what he thinks is happening in Hollywood is, uh, curated narratives in order to be able to deliver a, a particular message to the public out there.

Mark Normand 19:46 Hm.

Chris Williamson 19:46 Now, I didn't realize that there's entire well-established law about Black guys having to go through this ceremony of wearing a dress-

Mark Normand 19:57 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:58 ... on, on a movie. Like, this is part of it, in order to be able to get a big role. I... This is complete, like, well-established, kind of almost it's, it's like taken as a given-

Mark Normand 20:06 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:07 ... that Black guys need to do that, apparently. That like-

Mark Normand 20:10 Apparently. I don't know.

Chris Williamson 20:10 ... there's a bag of, there's a bag of cash waiting for you, you just need to put on the dress first.

Mark Normand 20:14 (laughs) Yeah, I don't know. I mean, look, um, I can't speak to it 'cause I'm not a Afro-Americane, but, uh, I feel like there's Black guys who never wore a dress who made it. A- Are there not?

Chris Williamson 20:26 Well, I hope so. But I feel like-

Mark Normand 20:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:29 I was talking to Ryan about this, and he seemed to, he seemed to like just... It's taken as a given that's in there. But yeah, you're kind of circling some of the more mainstreamy bits. You do, like, late nighty shows and-

Mark Normand 20:41 Sure.

Chris Williamson 20:42 ... and, and stuff. What's the experience? 'Cause obviously you're, like, straddling independent stuff, comedy stuff, and then mainstream stuff too.

Mark Normand 20:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:51 What's the tenor like inside mainstream TV at the moment? Like, what's it like when you... Like w-

Mark Normand 20:58 It's weird. It's definitely, um... It's like you said, there's definitely like a message that we have to uphold. And, uh, the weird thing about the message, or whatever you wanna call it, the narrative, is I'm okay with the narrative. I get it. We've always had narratives. Like in the '50s, the husband and wife had two beds, and they're fucking married and they have kids, but they have two separate beds. But we all know they're banging, but it's the '50s, you know? So now, the message or the narrative is different. But my thing is, you can't even bring up the narrative. People act like there's nothing. They're like, "No, what are you talking about? Ha ha ha ha." And I'm like, "Well, wait a minute. So we're doing this shit, but I can't, we can't even bring it up either?" That's where I get fucked up. As long as we can acknowledge it, then we're good.

Chris Williamson 21:43 What would you say to people that say, uh, you're seeing racism where there isn't any? Like, "This isn't racism. This is just representation," or something?

Mark Normand 21:50 Uh, I would say I'm all for representation, but like, you know, some of these comedy festivals, they'll, they have to check some boxes. So they'll bring on a Black guy who's not that good, but he's Black.

Chris Williamson 22:01 Right.

Mark Normand 22:02 And you're like, "Well, there's tons of funny Black guys."

Chris Williamson 22:04 Mm.

Mark Normand 22:05 But you just went with the guy who is Black instead of a funny guy-

Chris Williamson 22:09 Right.

Mark Normand 22:09 ... who happens to be Black. And that's, to me, that's the ultimate racism. That's like a soft racism.

Chris Williamson 22:14 Why would they... Or, uh, is there a subsection of Black comedians or Black actors and contributors to stuff that happens on TV who push a narrative that is more publicly acceptable? Is that why those guys get chosen?

Mark Normand 22:29 Ooh, that's a good question. Uh, maybe. Yeah, like Tom Segura has a funny thing where they're like, "Yeah, we're looking for, like, some people of color." And he's like, "Well, I'm Hispanic." And they're like, "Yeah."

Chris Williamson 22:39 Not that color.

Mark Normand 22:40 Not... "We need more Hispanic than you."

Chris Williamson 22:41 (laughs)

Mark Normand 22:41 And he's like, "So you're full of shit." So stuff like that where I just... I'm fine with, with all the bullshit. You just gotta acknowledge it, just so I don't feel crazy.

Chris Williamson 22:50 Well, Francis Foster's, uh, Venezuelan, uh, from Trigonometry. Konstantin Khesinin is Russian.

Mark Normand 22:55 Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:56 Uh, so, you know, you've got two guys that are, you know, as fucking immigranty as you're gonna get.

Mark Normand 23:00 Sure.

Chris Williamson 23:01 But...

Mark Normand 23:01 They don't look it.

Chris Williamson 23:02 No. Yeah, isn't, isn't that strange that it's not...

Mark Normand 23:06 Well, it's all optics at the end of the day.

Chris Williamson 23:08 Right.

Mark Normand 23:08 You know, you wanna be able to go, "Look at these guys I booked," and you wanna have a fucking sombrero and a guy, um, you know, with a, with like a poncho on, just 'cause it's easy. (laughs) That's a, it's a crazy image, but we wanna, you know, we want, we want a guy in like a dashiki and who's like really Black, you know, selling purses. That's what you want. But if you go, "Hey, this guy is Black," and they're like, "Well, he looks white," you're like, "Well, he's an albino, but he's Black." That doesn't count.

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Chris Williamson 24:40 What are your thoughts post-Shane's SNL appearance? Have you thought about what this means for comedy? What... Is it the landmark moment that sort of some people hope it is?

Mark Normand 24:51 I think it is a big deal. I don't wanna be one of these, uh, "Hey, this is a, a knife in the chest of cancel bullshit." I, I, I don't think it's that profound, but I do think... To me, it's funny 'cause SNL is like, "You're out. You're fired." And then five years later, they're like, "Ah." He still said the thing that they hated, so I'm like, "Which one is it?" So it kinda just shows that, listen, a lot of this shit is bullshit. Like, um, you see that Brian Stelter? You know who that is? He was a CNN... He was a CNN, uh-

Chris Williamson 25:24 (laughs)

Mark Normand 25:24 ... panelist or whatever you call it. Pundit? And he was like, always like, "Ah, these Republicans," and now he's gotten fired and now he's gone Republican. So it's just kinda funny that, like, things flip and flop and we can go 100, 100 miles an hour in one way, something changes, and we just U-turn and go the other way. And you're like, "Well, what about all that stuff-"

Chris Williamson 25:45 Yeah.

Mark Normand 25:45 "... that you were doing?" So it's all silly. We're all gonna die one day.

Chris Williamson 25:49 Well, I don't know. I mean, people who change their opinions with the wind-

Mark Normand 25:54 Yes.

Chris Williamson 25:54 ... uh, it, it, it does make you think that they're pretty unreliable. You know, if SNL... And it, this wasn't... I, I wasn't really paying much attention five years ago when the Shane original thing kicked off, but you just said... What was he on the front cover of? American Life or something?

Mark Normand 26:09 Who?

Chris Williamson 26:09 Shane.

Mark Normand 26:10 Oh, I think it was, like, Newsweek.

Chris Williamson 26:12 Right, which is a big deal.

Mark Normand 26:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:13 That's a g- it's a big thing that's going on.

Mark Normand 26:15 It was him, Cosby, Harvey, and Shane. And it was like, "What are we doing here?"

Chris Williamson 26:20 (laughs) Oh my God.

Mark Normand 26:21 Yeah, it's crazy.

Chris Williamson 26:22 And then you think, "Okay, so in five years' time..." But I mean, I don't know. It would've been interesting for SNL to have made people understand why they changed their opinion.

Mark Normand 26:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:32 Because it sounds an awful lot like, "Well, Shane's more popular now."

Mark Normand 26:36 Right.

Chris Williamson 26:37 'Cause it's not... And he's still... I mean, during his opening monologue, he managed to say the word gay, retard-

Mark Normand 26:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:43 ... and cracker.

Mark Normand 26:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:46 So-

Mark Normand 26:46 And we all, and we're all okay. Nobody died. Everybody's fine with the words. It, we're, we're gonna be all right. Well, you know what I love about it? All these, uh, outlets are like, "He bombed! He bombed!" First of all, it wasn't a bomb. He was a little loosey-goosey, he looked a little nervous, but he got big laughs and I thought he did well. But I know a couple comics who have bombed on there, but they didn't write that about them. And they were like, definite bombs. So why won't you wri-... It shows that there's an agenda always. There's always something more behind it, which is weird in journalism, 'cause it used to not be like that.

Chris Williamson 27:17 You're supposed to just report on fact. But I guess everyone's got an opinion, right?

Mark Normand 27:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:21 Do you like it, do you not like it? I did see someone had done a search and so many of the headlines just appeared to be the same thing, almost like-

Mark Normand 27:29 I know.

Chris Williamson 27:30 ... that whole kind of coordinated approach.

Mark Normand 27:32 Well, it's the same with late night. Every late night is like, "We hate this, we like this." You know, they're all the same jokes, just... That's why when Jon Stewart got The Daily Show and he did like the, "Biden's old and Trump is annoying," or what... It was like, "Whoa, he hit two. He hit both." That was, like, revolutionary.

Chris Williamson 27:47 Yes.

Mark Normand 27:47 And then he got attacked for that.

Chris Williamson 27:49 Did he?

Mark Normand 27:49 Yeah. Well, you-

Chris Williamson 27:50 Wow.

Mark Normand 27:50 ... you know, people got mad at him. He got some backlash.

Chris Williamson 27:52 What, that he shouldn't be talking about Biden's cognitive decline?

Mark Normand 27:55 Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 27:56 There was a, the White House physician did an assessment of Biden's health.

Mark Normand 28:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:01 And, uh, he said it was like... You know, this has been... It's one of the most overdone topics. Like, is he capable to do the job? He's gonna be the oldest president ever that comes into office if he gets reelected. But the same's gonna be true of Trump as well, even though Trump doesn't seem at least mentally to be the same. White House doctor claims Biden fit for duty after physical. President Joe Biden is allegedly fit for duty following his yearly physical exam according to White House doctor Kevin O'Connor. O'Connor says that there were no new concerns identified during the course of the exam from the last time Biden was examined in 2023. He claimed that Biden remained fit for duty and fully executes all of his responsibilities without any exemptions or accommodations. He also called Biden, "Healthy, active, and robust." While the results from Biden's physical exam seemed positive, no cognitive exam was performed.

Mark Normand 28:47 (laughs) That's classic. Well, did you see the thing with Trump where he said, uh... He said something on a panel and he was like, "How about that, Mercedes?" And everybody's like, "He got his wife's name wrong. Oh, my God. He's slipping. He's slipping." There's all these articles about him slipping. And then it came out that Mercedes was the name of the woman running the panel. So, but they don't go back and they don't go, "Oh, shit. We fucked that up." And you're like, "Well, I haven't seen you guys do that to Biden when he slips and he eats ice cream and talks about Palestine."

Chris Williamson 29:17 (laughs)

Mark Normand 29:17 You know? (laughs) So like... And look, I don't care, but that's what I'm saying. Like, there's always a, an agenda or a message that it, you can't go against. And I'm fine with the message, but you, you just gotta acknowledge it.

Chris Williamson 29:29 Yes.

Mark Normand 29:29 That's what kills me. Like, the AI thing is great proof because you're like, "All right. Something is going on."

Chris Williamson 29:35 Unequivocable, obvious-

Mark Normand 29:37 Yes.

Chris Williamson 29:38 ... showing of what's going on underneath.

Mark Normand 29:39 Exactly. That's all I ask, is just to go, "All right. You're right. It's happening. Back to work."

Chris Williamson 29:45 Yeah. It's, uh, it's kind of interesting when the mask slips. And I think people have just got such a problem with the accusation garnering so much attention and then the retraction being so piss poor.

Mark Normand 29:56 Yeah. Always. We like a, we like a headline. That's why they have to write, "Shane bombs," because it's like, "We gotta get... We gotta grab him."

Chris Williamson 30:04 Hmm. I wonder, yeah. D- thinking about Shane getting back onto SNL and going, "All right. Is this a, is this a, a landmark moment that shows that we've gone past the peak woke stuff and everything's kind of coming back around?" I didn't... I don't know how big of a deal SNL is in-

Mark Normand 30:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:23 ... the US. I don't know how much stuff's downstream from it. But certainly, that guy who went to Apple and then went back. Jon Stewart?

Mark Normand 30:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:30 Is that the guy? Yeah. I always get him and John Oliver mixed up.

Mark Normand 30:33 Oh, both were on The Daily Show, but one's British.

Chris Williamson 30:35 Yes. Uh-... he's sort of starting to push things a little bit. Bill Maher's kind of always been... like relatively kind of one foot in each camp-

Mark Normand 30:44 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:44 ... or at least prepared to kind of call stuff out. I don't know, like, ultimately, rather than looking at narratives and w- what sort of, um, desire or what kind of big story or message is being pushed, it's way easier to just look at incentives. It's like-

Mark Normand 30:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:58 ... what are people incentivized to talk about?

Mark Normand 31:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:00 So if they're incentivized to talk about this one thing because it makes them look empathetic and caring and, and, and like they're a, a, an altruistic truth-teller, people will just do that.

Mark Normand 31:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:12 The... By far the easiest thing is to make it either cancerous or uncool or obviously manipulating to do that thing.

Mark Normand 31:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:21 To do the forced diversity, to do... and I think almost... a- a- who do you know in norm- normal life that cares about that stuff? No one.

Mark Normand 31:31 Yeah, that's true. That, that gives me hope is when you see just... You know like I remember I went to a thing with my wife's family and I'm... uh, they were like, "You want a beer?" I was like, "Throw me a Bud Light, you trans whatever." And he was like, "What do you mean?" I'm like-

Chris Williamson 31:43 Ah.

Mark Normand 31:43 ... "Well, you know, Dylan Mulvaney." And he's like, "Who?" And I'm like, "Oh, you're a healthy person."

Chris Williamson 31:48 Yeah.

Mark Normand 31:48 You got your kids, you live out in the suburbs, you, you, you golf. You know, that, that guy's living life. And I'm out here like, uh, Hunter Biden, uh, Mitch McConnell, I'm writing all these jokes and then I think all that shit slips in and it makes you sadder.

Chris Williamson 32:01 Yes.

Mark Normand 32:02 So he's living it right, and I think we're kinda dialed in to the world and the culture and all that shit, and I think it might be eating away at us.

Chris Williamson 32:10 Yeah, I think you're probably

Chris Williamson 32:11 right. What's your strategy for remaining positive? 'Cause you've gotta keep on top of this stuff-

Mark Normand 32:15 I know, I know.

Chris Williamson 32:16 ... in order to be able to do the jokes and the topical things-

Mark Normand 32:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:18 ... but you also don't wanna be completely at the mercy and have your brain sucked out of your ears.

Mark Normand 32:24 I think you gotta b- just be aware of it. You gotta kinda go, "All right, I'm watching a lot of Gaza Strip stuff." (laughs) "I go- I gotta pull back a little."

Chris Williamson 32:31 Is that your relaxation music on an evening time?

Mark Normand 32:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:33 Some people play a video, a 4K video of a fireplace.

Mark Normand 32:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:37 You've just got Gaza Strip.

Mark Normand 32:38 Right. (laughs) Yeah, yeah. I've just got, uh, the Iron Dome getting bombed. That's my screensaver. But, uh, yeah, so I'm, um... Yeah, I think you gotta be aware of it, you gotta be conscious of it, and you gotta keep it silly. You gotta keep it funny. You know those comics who go up and just, "This is happening in the country," and da-da-da? You're like, "Well, this isn't fun. You gotta put a dick joke in there somewhere."

Chris Williamson 32:58 (laughs)

Mark Normand 32:59 So, somehow keep it silly and be aware that this is all news, it's all gonna go away. The guy lit himself on fire the other day. That will go away in three days, which is sad.

Chris Williamson 33:08 Yep.

Mark Normand 33:09 Um, but, uh, that's just how, that's just how it works, and none of this affects you directly. You go to the gym, you eat your, uh, protein, you get laid, you move on.

Chris Williamson 33:20 That... I- it's this, um... It's a two-way selective amnesia or sort of short-term memory that (clears throat) the press or SNL or whoever seem to very quickly be prepared to forget the thing that they stated as absolute 100%-

Mark Normand 33:37 I know.

Chris Williamson 33:37 ... und- undeniable fact. But then the audience also forget the thing-

Mark Normand 33:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:42 ... that they were previously vehement about. How many people... I would love to see someone do a study of the proportion of people with Ukraine flags in their bio.

Mark Normand 33:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:51 E- a- and like how does the graph peak?

Mark Normand 33:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:53 And then it sort of tails off, and it tails off, and then, oh, there Gaza happened and, like, that, that was a big drop.

Mark Normand 33:59 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:59 The, the sto- the stock of Ukraine discussions really, really hit a-

Mark Normand 34:03 Yes.

Chris Williamson 34:03 ... October 7th put a big dent in that.

Mark Normand 34:05 Right.

Chris Williamson 34:05 And then will continue to go along, continue to go on. And it's this flimsiness of-

Mark Normand 34:10 Yes.

Chris Williamson 34:11 ... of people's convictions about things that they care about. Like, look, if you're gonna force me to read a d- hundred tweet thread or you posting about this particular thing over and over and over again, or news stories being dominated by this thing, then have the courage of your convictions to stick about and keep talking about that when it's not popular.

Mark Normand 34:32 Of course. A hu- I... It feels like fashion. Like, "Oh, you're still wearing those pants? Those are so out," and you're like, "Oh, shit." And, but instead of fashion though, like, you made Ukraine your whole personality and now it's kinda faded out. And so now you gotta just pretend no o- or hope no one noticed and go to the next thing.

Chris Williamson 34:49 Mm.

Mark Normand 34:49 Hey, uh, remember Stop Asian Hate? Are they okay? Did they get stopped getting hated? What happened?

Chris Williamson 34:55 (laughs)

Mark Normand 34:55 But that was a hashtag for eight minutes, and we all got on board, and then it moved on.

Chris Williamson 34:58 I think I've heard someone call it the opinion pageant.

Mark Normand 35:01 Ooh, I like that.

Chris Williamson 35:02 Yeah. Where i- i- it's all about what opinion are you holding and, and what's fashionable at this one time. You have a Team Mi- speaking of opinion pageant, what's your bomber jacket that you were wearing?

Mark Normand 35:13 Oh, (laughs) I have a Miss Teen USA, uh, vintage Coach coat that I found at a thrift store.

Chris Williamson 35:19 Was that, uh, owned by Donald J. Trump?

Mark Normand 35:22 (laughs) Did he do that?

Chris Williamson 35:24 I d- what was it he did? No, he did Miss America.

Mark Normand 35:26 He did Miss America, yeah. Uh, no, this is... I just found at a thrift store and I was like, "I'm buying this. It says Miss Teen USA." So I love the idea of some guy with a whistle and a gut was just like, "All right, bring her in. We're gonna, we're gonna win it-

Chris Williamson 35:38 (laughs)

Mark Normand 35:38 ... this year, Kelly." You know? So I had to buy it.

Chris Williamson 35:41 Like in a boot camp for Miss Teen America.

Mark Normand 35:43 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, when I was a kid, uh, a girl... I know girls in high school were like, "Oh, I'm dying to do Playboy. I hope I can get in Playboy," and then Playboy became this evil thing. So it's funny how much that's shifted. Remember the Playboy Mansion was every guy's dream? Like, "If I make it to the Playboy Mansion, I'll be set."

Chris Williamson 35:58 I've made it.

Mark Normand 35:59 Yeah. And now that's gone.

Chris Williamson 36:01 And now girls do OnlyFans instead.

Mark Normand 36:02 (laughs) Right, good point.

Chris Williamson 36:05 I- in a way it's strange, like, I think, uh, something that in... w- with one perspective could be seen as exploitative is seen as empowering when done just at a slightly different kind of angle.

Mark Normand 36:16 I love the empowering. That's a real catchall for horse shit.

Chris Williamson 36:19 (laughs)

Mark Normand 36:19 (laughs) Isn't it? You know, it's like, "Oh, I'm stripping now. It's empowering." You're like, "All right. I guess I gotta go with that."

Chris Williamson 36:26 Ah, uh.

Mark Normand 36:27 "I'm a hooker, it's empowering."

Chris Williamson 36:29 I mean, (sighs) that might be one of the patriarchy's greatest tricks. Perhaps the patriarchy is as powerful as we think it is if it's managed to convince women that getting naked and selling their nudes on the internet at the price of a cheeseburger-

Mark Normand 36:42 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:43 ... is, is actually something approximating empowerment.

Mark Normand 36:46 I get- was that us? I thought that was them.

Chris Williamson 36:48 I, well, that's my point. That's the real psyop.

Mark Normand 36:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:50 The real psyop is that we convince them that that's something that they should enforce between themselves.

Mark Normand 36:54 Sure, well, I mean, feminism is great because it's like, "We wanna, we wanna be shirtless like men, we wanna pay for dinner," and you're like, "Bring it on, sister. Rah, rah."

Chris Williamson 37:03 I found a interesting study looking at, uh, who pays for dates.

Mark Normand 37:09 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:10 So for Gen Z, an age-old question, who pays for dates, young people tend to lean more liberal on a range of issues pertaining to relationship norms, but when it comes to dating, the idea that men should still pay prevails in heterosexual courtship. Researchers found that w- that young men paid for all or most of the dates around 90% of the time, while women paid only 2% and they split the check round about 8%. On subsequent dates, splitting the check was more common, though men still paid a majority of the time while women rarely did. Nearly 80% of men expected that they would pay on the first date, while just over half of women expected men to pay. Surprisingly, views on gender norms, that didn't make much of a difference. On average, both men and women in the sample expected the man to pay whether they had more traditional views of gender roles or more progressive ones. The findings strongly showed that the traditional pattern is still there. The persistent tradition of men paying for women may seem like a harmless artifact, but in a relationship some acts don't exist in a vacuum.

Mark Normand 38:05 Wow. Well, how about that? It's like that old Bill Burr joke, you know, like, women want equality except for a couple of things over here. Like if somebody breaks in, you gotta stop 'em, you gotta pay for dinner. Uh, if the ship sinks, I get off first. You know, so that's his joke, but it's an interesting point. You know, we all want equality until you gotta lose something. You know, the WNBA is like, "Hey, we should make as much as men," but male models make less than women, but I don't hear any women like, "Hey, they should make as much as women."

Chris Williamson 38:34 I sent you that video the other day, the highlights from the WNBA. One of my friends-

Mark Normand 38:37 (laughs) Oh, no.

Chris Williamson 38:38 One of my friends replied to me and was like, "Dude, look at the stands." And the stands are just empty.

Mark Normand 38:43 Ah.

Chris Williamson 38:43 And you think, "Well, I don't know." Again, with that, it- it's not saying that the WNBA doesn't need support. Maybe female basketball players, it would be great if more of them were incentivized to do stuff, but for all of the people saying you aren't supporting the WNBA, why aren't you attending?

Mark Normand 38:59 Of course.

Chris Williamson 39:00 Why aren't you in the stands?

Mark Normand 39:01 Sure.

Chris Williamson 39:01 And this is why I've had this idea for ages about how hypocrisy is kind of the perfect purpose-built issue for the internet, because it's like-

Mark Normand 39:11 Hm.

Chris Williamson 39:11 Do you remember those games, maybe even exist still, on, uh, like iPads, where it would be a spot the difference thing? It would be on a touch screen in some pub somewhere, and you'd be, like, looking between these two different images and be like, "Oh, okay, so that's there and that's there." And the reason the hypocrisy works is because what someone said or tweeted previously is available for you to see.

Mark Normand 39:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:31 And then the new thing that they said or tweeted is available for you to see, and you're able to compare and contrast the two. And you say, "Well, it's interesting 'cause you once said this thing, but look what's happening here." And this is why, "Well, look, you just said that the WNBA needs way more support, but you haven't bought your season ticket to the, like, W Lakers or whatever for this."

Mark Normand 39:49 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 39:50 "So what, uh, put your money where your mouth is."

Mark Normand 39:52 Sure.

Chris Williamson 39:52 "How is it that you can talk about this and not ca-" Like, "I saw you courtside at, like, a Bulls game-

Mark Normand 39:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:56 "... but I didn't see you courtside at a women's Bulls game."

Mark Normand 39:59 Sure. Yeah, I mean, i- i- it's- it's obvious, it's dead-on, but that's how people are, I think.

Chris Williamson 40:05 They don't like having the hypocrisies pointed out-

Mark Normand 40:09 No.

Chris Williamson 40:09 ... quite rightly as well, like why-

Mark Normand 40:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:10 You know, i- i- it really shows up the less gracious parts of you. But yeah, I think that's what people are- are looking out for. They're looking out for, "Hang on a second, is this person fucking telling the truth?"

Mark Normand 40:22 That's like comedy, that's where comedy comes in. We come into that little, that little opening and- and really blow it up. You know, like, uh, when- when Caitlyn Jenner turned into Caitlyn Jenner, a lot of women were trying to be nice and they were like, "She's beautiful. Look how pretty she is." And then I would go, "Well, you look like her." And they'd go, "Fuck you."

Chris Williamson 40:39 (laughs)

Mark Normand 40:40 And I'm like, "Oh, isn't that fun that you can just y- you're full of shit and I- I can prove it." It's like when guys say, "I don't see color." You're like, "Yeah, you do." All we talk about is- is we need more Black people in this movie, this is, uh, racist. I'm like, "So you saw the color. What if I'm like, 'I'm Black'?" You'd go, "No, you're not." And I go, "Aha!" You know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:59 (laughs)

Mark Normand 41:00 So again, I'm okay with all of it, you just gotta stop lying to me.

Chris Williamson 41:03 Yes.

Mark Normand 41:03 That's what, that's when you start going nuts.

Chris Williamson 41:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:06 How... A- a- again, looking at that sort of shame thing, how effective do you think deplatforming is generally, or the kind of cancellation thing? 'Cause we had, um... Who's the fucking big guy that, uh, plays at the Mothership a good bit and he got in some trouble about doing a, uh, George Floyd joke?

Mark Normand 41:24 Oh, yeah, yeah, Lucas.

Chris Williamson 41:26 Yeah, yeah, David Lucas.

Mark Normand 41:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:28 What's your... Do you live in permanent ambient fear of the wrong clip going on up on the internet?

Mark Normand 41:34 A little. Uh, it used to be way scarier just 'cause, uh, people would really, like they made a career off of getting you.

Chris Williamson 41:40 Hm.

Mark Normand 41:40 So it was like m- they were more incentivized to get you. But now I think, uh, I think going after George Floyd, I guess that is pretty, (laughs) that's pretty dicey.

Chris Williamson 41:50 Yeah.

Mark Normand 41:50 No matter who you are.

Chris Williamson 41:51 You're flying close to the sun.

Mark Normand 41:52 Yeah, so I'm not actually surprised that happened. I don't- I don't support getting him in trouble, but like, uh, I'm not surprised. And also he put the video up, so, you know, you're kinda like, "Uh."

Chris Williamson 42:03 Yeah.

Mark Normand 42:04 If that happened, if I made a joke about that, I would not be posting that.

Chris Williamson 42:06 Hm.

Mark Normand 42:07 So there is, there are some, uh, degrees to this, but, uh, you know, he is a comic and he can say whatever he wants and people can backlash and then he can rebut, and that's how it goes. So, but I do think deplatforming is pretty shitty 'cause it's... All we talk about is compassion, but what about the guy or the gal like, uh, what's the lady from The Mandalorian?

Chris Williamson 42:29 Hm.

Mark Normand 42:29 The UFC fighter lady who got in trouble-

Chris Williamson 42:31 Yes, I know the one you mean.

Mark Normand 42:32 ... for tweeting?

Chris Williamson 42:32 Yes.

Mark Normand 42:33 You know, like, she went through hell and then there's, like, a lot of, like, suicide talk when that happens. Like they really go through hell, but people go, "Well, she's working again, she's fine." And I hate the "she's fine" because you're the one who always talks about compassion. So, like, let's say you called a-... a- a guy the N-word, and then he went back to work the next day. And I was like, "He's fine. Well, what about the N-word thing? Like, that still hurt his feelings." So, i- it just feels a little hyp- hypocritical to me.

Chris Williamson 42:59 Yeah. I, uh ... There's definitely something about a person overcoming a difficult situation and you thinking, "Well, because they overcame it, that means that it's not a big deal."

Mark Normand 43:09 Yes.

Chris Williamson 43:09 Like, you don't know how much difficulty people went through-

Mark Normand 43:12 Of course.

Chris Williamson 43:13 ... t- to overcome that. So as a good example of this, um, I'm trying, I'm purposefully trying harder to be more disagreeable in my-

Mark Normand 43:20 Really?

Chris Williamson 43:20 ... personal life and on the show as well. Yeah, I just, I find myself to be a bit of a people pleaser. I don't-

Mark Normand 43:25 Yeah, me too.

Chris Williamson 43:26 Sitting with discomfort, especially on the show, just makes me feel like-

Mark Normand 43:30 Me too. W- why do we have that? What's wrong with us?

Chris Williamson 43:33 Well, I'm in, I'm-

Mark Normand 43:34 Are we pussies?

Chris Williamson 43:34 ... in fucking therapy, so I've got like a million bro psychology reasons for why that's the case. But, at least for me, if I say something that I know is purposefully going to push the, uh, guest or even someone that I'm sat opposite into an area of, of discomfort, it makes me, and it's like toe-curlingly difficult.

Mark Normand 43:54 Same.

Chris Williamson 43:55 So, I understand if you look at, um, Douglas Murray or Ben Shapiro or even, uh, Rogan or whoever, and you go, "Well, they're able to do it." And you go, "Yeah, but it comes more easily." Well, actually, I don't know. In, in all truth, I don't know, and this is the point that I'm making. But if you, people pleaser number one, or me, people pleaser number two, does that, it's like, it's like the skinny guy that manages to get muscular. You go, "Wow, look at what you had to overcome in order to be able to give this lukewarm pushback-"

Mark Normand 44:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:25 "... against a person."

Mark Normand 44:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:27 Something tells me that Ben Shapiro's cringe-o-meter when he makes somebody else in a debate or a discussion feel uncomfortable is not as hyper-attuned as mine-

Mark Normand 44:35 Sure.

Chris Williamson 44:35 ... or yours might be.

Mark Normand 44:35 Sure.

Chris Williamson 44:36 And that's the same as this, "Well, think about the, uh, they look okay." It's like, you don't know how much work this person has had to go through-

Mark Normand 44:44 Mm, 100%.

Chris Williamson 44:44 ... in order to be able to feel okay. They might have had to do fucking w- a thousand sessions of meditation-

Mark Normand 44:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:51 ... and, and, and gone to Peru and done a ton of ayahuasca, or maybe they cried themselves to sleep-

Mark Normand 44:56 Right.

Chris Williamson 44:56 ... for three months. You don't know. Just because someone comes out the other side looking okay doesn't mean that they didn't go through some bullshit.

Mark Normand 45:03 And that, and look, it's fine if you wanna be mean and be a bully, but don't act compassionate also. That's what bugs me about it too. So I, I completely agree. Like, you're putting someone through hell. Like, I know a couple guys who went through it, and, uh, Jesus, they're like different people now. They, you know how the president goes in and then comes out looking older? They're like that. You know, and they had night terrors and therapy and all this shit. And I think it's like a biological thing, where when you're outside the group-

Chris Williamson 45:30 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 45:31 ... you know, this, uh, this, we're all social creatures. So when you're outside the group and sh- an outcast, it fucks with you. It almost feels like you're dying or something. It's like this panic attacky feeling.

Chris Williamson 45:40 It's very stressful.

Mark Normand 45:41 Yeah, so I think, uh, that's a lot, that's hard on somebody.

Chris Williamson 45:45 There was a, a conversation I had with Robert Sapolsky, who's this, uh, evolutionary biologist guy, and he was teaching me about epigenetics.

Mark Normand 45:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:53 So, I thought epigenetics was total dog shit. I thought it was like the god of the gaps for behavioral genetics. Basically, um, life circumstances can change your genome, not just change the way that you feel or your memories. They can actually impact you on a genetic level, and that can be passed down.

Mark Normand 46:09 Hm.

Chris Williamson 46:09 Now, you get perilously close to like ancestral trauma and stuff here. But there was a study done on pregnant women who entered poverty during-

Mark Normand 46:18 Ooh.

Chris Williamson 46:18 ... their pregnancy.

Mark Normand 46:19 That's interesting.

Chris Williamson 46:20 Poverty is a very reliable stressor. It's a very reliable way to make you, uh, it, it, it's really ruthless, because being in poverty takes up so much of your mental space-

Mark Normand 46:32 Yes, yes.

Chris Williamson 46:32 ... that getting out of poverty becomes more difficult. It's a really vicious-

Mark Normand 46:35 Oh, interesting.

Chris Williamson 46:35 ... sort of catch-22, um, trap. And, uh, they were able to show genetic, uh, changes in the kids. And here's the wild thing. When-

Mark Normand 46:45 Wow.

Chris Williamson 46:45 ... when your grandmother was pregnant with your mother, the egg that was going to make you was inside of your grandmother. Because when a, a female baby is born, they're born with all of the eggs that they will have for the entirety of their life. So at one point, there was grandmother, mother, and egg that would make you, all inside of the same person.

Mark Normand 47:08 (laughs) Jesus Christ. Anyone else hard?

Chris Williamson 47:11 (laughs)

Mark Normand 47:12 (laughs) This is a lot going on here, man.

Chris Williamson 47:14 Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

Mark Normand 47:16 Boy, the, the human body, it is wacky.

Chris Williamson 47:18 It is. But my point being that, um, you know, the stress that people go through, and you're totally right, I mean, those, those photos of Barack Obama before and after-

Mark Normand 47:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:26 ... you know, 'cause he went in, and it's, you look at someone like Joe Biden or Trump, and you're like, "Uh, he's kind of, uh, is not exactly looking his best-"

Mark Normand 47:35 He was old going in.

Chris Williamson 47:36 "... entering." Yeah.

Mark Normand 47:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:37 Whereas Barack was, you know, this sort of spritely-

Mark Normand 47:39 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:40 ... kinda handsome dude-

Mark Normand 47:41 Handsome black guy.

Chris Williamson 47:41 ... going in, and then he comes out, and he's very lined face and the-

Mark Normand 47:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:44 ... gray hair is very... And, uh, some guys just cross that threshold in any case. Like me and you have got a little of the gray coming in-

Mark Normand 47:50 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:51 ... on the, on the old beard. But yeah, I think, um, just giving people a bit more grace. And I find this in myself as well, you know, playing the, making a judgment about someone, making a, a very quick, um, call about, "Oh, well that's, that's because they're a bad person."

Mark Normand 48:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:06 Or, "That's because they're untrustworthy," or whatever. I'm like, "Hang, hang on a second, you don't know anything about them."

Mark Normand 48:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:10 But you've seen this small thing and you're arguing to, for people to give more leeway. B- Both of us today have been saying, "Oh, why don't we try and just, you know, see the best in people-"

Mark Normand 48:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:19 "... as best we can?" And maybe we even need to do that with the ones that are trying to push the narrative. You know, Schultz taught me about how he thinks internally it's not coordination, it's cowardice. It's just people scared of losing their jobs.

Mark Normand 48:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:31 A lot of people don't believe it. When you think, well, cowardice is pretty bad, and it's caused a lot of evil shit to happen.

Mark Normand 48:35 Sure.

Chris Williamson 48:35 But still, like, uh, yeah, just, ah God, slowing down, slowing it all down, and being a little bit more forgiving to people-

Mark Normand 48:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:44 ... would be a good idea.

Mark Normand 48:44 But we, we do look to, like, the-... outlandish, brash people kind of a ... Like Muhammad Ali, you know, in the '60s was like, "I'm the greatest. I'm the, I'll kill anybody." And you're, you're sitting there in your little house as a kid going like, "Whoa, you're not supposed to be that arrogant." And he's doing it, and he's a k- he's a killer out there in the ring, so ... I think comedy has that where it like, "Holy shit, Tim Dillon just said that. You're not supposed to say those things. Oh, my God," and it's fun. Richard Pryor was the king of that, or George Carlin.

Chris Williamson 49:13 How so?

Mark Normand 49:13 Well, Pryor, Pryor was so, uh, revolutionary because, like, you had Cosby, you had Flip Wilson, you had Moms Mabley, but he was out there like, "I'm gonna say the real shit. I'm not gonna walk the line. I'm gonna make fun of whitey, I'm gonna say the N-word a bunch." And he's smoking and he's dirty. And then Carlin was like, "What's up with this? What's up with that?" Uh, he made fun of the, the man, the establishment. And that's what, what was fun about it. And they got pushback, but now we have the internet, so you can get pushback right to your door.

Chris Williamson 49:46 Hmm.

Mark Normand 49:46 Whereas before you just got like, you know, a letter from the Catholic Church or something.

Chris Williamson 49:51 Yeah. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Just Meats. If you're looking for more high quality ready-made protein delivered directly to your door, Just Meats is the answer. It's grass-fed and grass-finished beef, precooked and pre-seasoned, and it is ready in two minutes. So if you are, like me, someone who knows they need to eat more protein but doesn't have the time or the attention span to be able to actually cook something for yourself, this is the solution for you. All of their meat is sourced from local ranches across the Rocky Mountains and requires exactly zero cooking skills to be able to prepare. Just put the precooked meal on the stove and within seconds, it's ready to go. Whether it's their Texas-style brisket, Latin-inspired chicken or Hawaiian-flavored pork, all of their dishes taste phenomenal. You are not eating enough protein in your diet, and this is a hack that means you can have stuff that tastes great, is responsibly sourced, high quality, and only takes you two minutes to prepare. Right now, you can get $15 off your first order by going to the link in the description below or heading to justmeats.com/modernwisdom15 and using the code MODERNWISDOM15 at checkout. That's justmeats.com/modernwisdom15 and MODERNWISDOM15 at checkout. I was ... found a, uh, study that recently was done, uh, deplatforming, norm-violating influences on social media reduces overall online attention toward them. From politicians to podcast hosts, online platforms have systematically banned, deplatformed influential users for breaking platform guidelines. Previous inquiries into the effectiveness of thi- this intervention were inconclusive because, one, they consider only a few deplatforming events. Two, they consider only overt engagement traces like likes and posts, but not passive engagement like views. Three, they do not consider all the potential places users are impacted by this da- deplatforming event might migrate to. They did this huge study, a quasi-experimental study of 165 deplatforming events targeted at 101 influencers. They looked at Reddit and then manually curated the data and did all of this stuff. Through a difference-in-difference approach, we found that deplatforming reduces online attention. After 12 months, we estimate that online attention toward deplatformed influencers is reduced by 63%-

Mark Normand 51:57 So it works.

Chris Williamson 51:57 ... and on Google, by 43% on Wikipedia.

Mark Normand 52:01 Wow, so this is a really effective thing.

Chris Williamson 52:03 63% on Google and 43%. Further, as we study over 100 deplatforming events, we can analyze in which cases deplatform is more or less impactful, revealing nuances about the intervention. Notably, we find that both permanent and temporary deplatforming reduce online attention toward influencers. Overall, this work contributes to the ongoing efforts to map the effectiveness of content moderation interventions driving platform governance away from speculation.

Mark Normand 52:27 Hoo.

Chris Williamson 52:28 So we got some hard and fast data, 63% on Google and 43% on Wikipedia from, uh, deplatforming.

Mark Normand 52:35 That sucks for those influencers who were part of this test. They're like, "Great, now I'm fucked." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:39 (laughs)

Mark Normand 52:39 "Because you had to run a test on me."

Chris Williamson 52:40 N- I think that it was they looked at existing deplatforming events.

Mark Normand 52:44 I see.

Chris Williamson 52:44 So your Alex Joneses, your Milo Yiannopoulos, your Tates or whatever would have been looked at.

Mark Normand 52:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:48 And, uh, I've ne-

Mark Normand 52:49 That's interesting.

Chris Williamson 52:50 I've never understood the whole, "Oh, well, it's a Streisand effect, you know, it makes people more-"

Mark Normand 52:54 Yeah, sometimes though.

Chris Williamson 52:55 But it's very r- I mean, Shane is ... I- I'm trying to think of-

Mark Normand 52:59 Kanye.

Chris Williamson 53:00 Ka- Ooh.

Mark Normand 53:01 He was already huge before, but Chappelle already huge before. So yeah, that, that you kinda have to have a base.

Chris Williamson 53:06 And you have this leeway as well. And it's all about optics.

Mark Normand 53:09 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:09 You know, I think that Kanye is in an interesting position because he genuinely doesn't care.

Mark Normand 53:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:14 Or doesn't seem to care. And then Jesus f- Goddamn it, I missed ... I was watching the Super Bowl, I even texted you during it, but I missed the Kanye ad- advert.

Mark Normand 53:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:25 Did you see that?

Mark Normand 53:26 Yeah, it was awesome.

Chris Williamson 53:27 I only saw it after the event.

Mark Normand 53:28 Yeah, just him on a phone, "Hey, I spent 7 million bucks. Buy my album."

Chris Williamson 53:33 (laughs)

Mark Normand 53:33 "Uh, thank you."

Chris Williamson 53:34 So good.

Mark Normand 53:35 And it worked, he made millions on it.

Chris Williamson 53:36 Yeah, uh, but so he kinda doesn't care, as is evident by his handheld, uh-

Mark Normand 53:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:42 ... Super Bowl, vertically shot Super Bowl advert. And then, um, uh, Chappelle, uh, and, and Shane have got this like, it's, you know, they gift people joy-

Mark Normand 53:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:52 ... in a way.

Mark Normand 53:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:53 So I don't know, I feel like you, you guys, I said this ages ago that I feel like everyone should do standup once so that they always have the ability to say, "Hey, I'm just a comedian."

Mark Normand 54:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:04 They've just got that as the get out of jail free card.

Mark Normand 54:06 Well, my thing is, look, you can hate the comic, you can hate the message the guy has to say or the girl is saying, but like, why does it have to go away? Like, why the deplatforming? Why can't you just go, "That's not for me"? You know, when you're on campus and they're doing like a, you know, a trans drum circle for, uh, climate change, you go, "All right, I, I'm, I'm not going to that, I'm going to get drunk." But you're not gonna go, "We gotta shut this down." And that's the part that bugs me is like, why the shutting down? That's so, that's so Trumpian. All these people that hate Trump are very dictatory.

Chris Williamson 54:38 Mm.

Mark Normand 54:38 You know, same with like defund the police people tend to make a lot of rules also, so I'm like, "You're just policing everything." It, it's very, uh, mirrored.

Chris Williamson 54:47 I saw, uh, this-... a house just around the corner from where I live that's got a Defund the Police sign in the front garden. And every single morning, I see this and a, uh, private security sticker in the front window.

Mark Normand 54:58 Yeah, there you go.

Chris Williamson 54:59 Every single time that I walk past it, I think, like, "Is this a joke?"

Mark Normand 55:02 We need a word for that, like the, uh, the climate change activist who was on the private jet to give his lectures about climate change. You know, the, the rep- the s- Republican senator who's like, "God hates fags," but he's blowing a guy in the rest stop.

Chris Williamson 55:14 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 55:15 You know, there's this overcompensation of, like, "You gotta do this." I'm not doing that-

Chris Williamson 55:18 (laughs)

Mark Normand 55:18 ... but you gotta do it.

Chris Williamson 55:20 So, the, the closest thing is luxury

Chris Williamson 55:22 beliefs.

Mark Normand 55:23 Oh, do tell.

Chris Williamson 55:24 Uh, uh, so a friend, Rob Henderson, has repopularized this. It's not his original invention, but he says luxury beliefs are, uh, beliefs held by the upper classes that bestow status on them, but incur costs on people of-

Mark Normand 55:39 Oh, that's good.

Chris Williamson 55:41 ... the lower class. Yeah. Uh, so Defund the Police is a, a perfect example of this. Another one that's kind of obvious is, um, two-parent households who have no advantage or getting married has no advantage for raising a child. So, you look at the number of college graduates and people in the upper echelons of society, almost all of them are married-

Mark Normand 55:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:58 ... in monogamous relationships, uh, with a classic nuclear family setup. And the lower classes, th- that may believe this particular narrative that's pushed by them, are the ones that suffer, in the same way as you behind your gated community tweeting, "Yeah, we really need to, you know, these police are racist and we don't, we, we, they shouldn't be there," and all the rest of it. It's like, yeah, but you're not a Black guy from inner city Chicago.

Mark Normand 56:20 Yeah, exactly. I know, and it looks good on paper. Like, uh, I saw in California they're doing a thing where they're lowering test standards for Black kids 'cause they're having trouble in school.

Chris Williamson 56:30 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 56:30 And I'm like, "I guess that's nice 'cause more will pass, but you're fucking them in the future." Like, isn't that way worse?

Chris Williamson 56:37 There's a huge problem in Illinois at the moment in the schooling system, some huge percentage, uh, of kids can't read at grade level. And then they finish, uh, high school and they get out and it's just, there's noth- there's nothing there. They finish, like, K through 12, they've... Math ability is way behind where they should be. Reading comprehension is way behind where they should be. And you think, "What are you learning?"

Mark Normand 56:59 I know.

Chris Williamson 56:59 What are you doing-

Mark Normand 57:00 I know.

Chris Williamson 57:00 ... in school?

Mark Normand 57:01 It's scary. And you're following the Roland Fryer?

Chris Williamson 57:04 No.

Mark Normand 57:04 Oh, this is right up your anal, baby. This is, this is Chris all day long. I don't wanna get too much into it, but, uh, he's a Harvard guy, Harvard professor, very, like, the youngest, uh, Black ho- professor at Harvard to get tenure or whatever you call it. I don't know.

Chris Williamson 57:21 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 57:21 Brilliant guy. From the hood, Black guy, made it to Harvard, did it, wrote a bunch of books. Esteemed, everybody loves him. He started doing studies on police and Black, uh, you know, crime and all that. And he came out with this study that there's actually way less Black death from police than we think.

Chris Williamson 57:41 Mm-hmm.

Mark Normand 57:42 And they're not actually going after Black people as much as we think they are. This is his study. He couldn't believe the numbers 'cause of, you know, 'cause what we've been hearing for years and years. So he did it, he did it for a year with eight interns working under him. He couldn't believe the numbers, so he said, "Let's do another year and do it again with eight different people just to make sure we got it." And it came out the same way. And everybody at Harvard is like, "Don't put this out. It'll ruin you." Which goes back to what I was saying about how I'm okay with the bullshit, but at least let me acknowledge it. They don't even want you to acknowledge it, you know? So he's like, "I'm putting this out. This is data. It's facts." They're like, "It doesn't look good. Don't put it out." They tried to get him fired. They tried to ruin him. They tried to Me Too him. They tried all these things. He beat everything and he put it out, and now he has an armed guard with him all day long 'cause he's getting death threats. So he's got his kid at the grocery store with a fucking security guard. And the irony of like, "Hey, I'm just saying, it's not as bad out there for Black people as we think," to saying that to now needing protection from a cop. I mean, the whole thing's wacky. And I'm not saying he's right or wrong, folks. Don't come after me. I'm just saying this is happening in America right now, and it's fascinating.

Chris Williamson 58:52 That's wild. I've got a friend, uh, Carole Hooven, who wrote a book about testosterone. And she, when she did Rogan's show, she cried, I think, four times. When-

Mark Normand 59:02 Whoa.

Chris Williamson 59:03 When she did my show, she cried, uh, at least three times.

Mark Normand 59:06 Jesus. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:07 We went, we went, we went for breakfast in Austin. I think she cried twice at breakfast.

Mark Normand 59:11 What?

Chris Williamson 59:11 Like, she's just a very emotional lady, you know?

Mark Normand 59:13 You don't say.

Chris Williamson 59:14 And it's, it's in, like, joy and sadness and stuff too. And, uh, like, she'll talk, she'll start talking about her son and immediately start welling up.

Mark Normand 59:20 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 59:20 She just loves, loves her son. Anyway, she, uh, talks about biological differences between men and women, spicy. She was at Harvard. She had, I think it was one of the most popular courses of undergraduates, uh, in psychology. I think it was, like, some insane number. It might have been 500 people that attended this particular, uh, course that she did, really interesting course. And after she did the Rogan thing and then the book came out and then she maybe posted a couple of things as well, none of her teaching assistants were prepared to work with her.

Mark Normand 59:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:55 So these are post-grads, usually doing a PhD or something, and they'll be part of some lab. But you need your TAs. You need the teaching assistants.

Mark Normand 1:00:04 It's an ask.

Chris Williamson 1:00:05 'Cause-

Mark Normand 1:00:06 Sorry, sorry. TA, I'm listening.

Chris Williamson 1:00:10 (laughs) You need, you need that to, uh, help you 'cause it's a huge class-

Mark Normand 1:00:15 Sure.

Chris Williamson 1:00:15 ... and marking work and, and they kind of assist during the lecturing. I've got a few friends in Austin here that work as TAs for their, uh, professors, the head of their labs and shit. And that's, like, soft cancel. Like, she was being pushed out-

Mark Normand 1:00:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:28 ... because how can you do your course if no one will work with you?

Mark Normand 1:00:30 Of course.

Chris Williamson 1:00:30 And then, uh, there wasn't backup from the dean and there wasn't the rest of it. And she's out now.

Mark Normand 1:00:35 She's out.

Chris Williamson 1:00:35 She's been pushed out. I'm pretty sure she had tenure-

Mark Normand 1:00:37 Ah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:38 ... at this... Which is supposed to be the protection-

Mark Normand 1:00:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:41 ... that you need. Uh, and then she was part of this Bill Ackman thing, you know, where he called out Claudine Gay-

Mark Normand 1:00:47 Oh, right, right, right, right.

Chris Williamson 1:00:47 ... and Harvard and all this stuff a couple of months ago. But the weird thing there, and I spoke to her about this-... she was basically used as a very fortunate political football-

Mark Normand 1:00:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:54 ... to be kicked around. See how perfect th- th- this is, shows that the woke mob are trying to push people out, that say things that aren't egregious. And no one, this is something I haven't really thought of before, no one considered what she wanted as a part of this. So she's already lost her job.

Mark Normand 1:01:12 Good point.

Chris Williamson 1:01:13 But just because she's a very... Same with Shane, like Shane strikes me as a large, ruddy, robust guy.

Mark Normand 1:01:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:22 And you using him as an example of somebody who went through difficulty with SNL to then sort of come out the other side of it, I don't, I don't feel that he's taking that as, "Oh, you, you know, you've retriggered my PTSD from this awful incident that occurred to me five years ago."

Mark Normand 1:01:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:37 It doesn't strike me... But the woman that cried five times on a podcast maybe does. And-

Mark Normand 1:01:41 Yeah, right? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:42 This is, you know, again, it kind of-

Mark Normand 1:01:44 Do we care about people's feelings or not?

Chris Williamson 1:01:45 Yes. It just comes back to trying to give people a bit more grace.

Mark Normand 1:01:49 Yes, there you go. It's, uh, we shouldn't be, uh, boiled down to this one, one tweet, or one thing we said, or one joke we made, or, or one thing this lady did, you know? But that's, that's what we do. And I think we have negativity bias, so we go, "This is the thing, fuck you." And you're like, "What about all the good I did?" And they're like, "Ah."

Chris Williamson 1:02:08 Forget about that.

Mark Normand 1:02:09 Forget about it. Shane actually has a great sketch on, uh, ah, the fucking lounge.

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 What are you doing eating?

Mark Normand 1:02:14 The lounge. It's horrible food. So, uh, Shane has a great sketch where he's a fireman. He saved a bunch of people's lives and the, the, the guy's like, "Wow, did you just save that whole burning building? You know, the babies, the women, everything?" "Yeah, yeah, that was me." And he goes, uh, "Looks like I found some tweets from, uh, last year." (laughs) And it says this, this and this, you know, gay and whatever. And he's like, "Oh, yeah, why are you pulling that up?" He's like, "Dude, what are you doing to me?" And it's a nice, it's kind of a nice m- uh, microcosm of what's going on, like this gotcha shit. But the guy just saved a, a, a b- a building full of people, so it's funny.

Chris Williamson 1:02:46 Not good enough. Sorry, not good enough.

Mark Normand 1:02:47 Yeah. But I feel like, are, are, are we talking about this too much? I'm worried that, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:02:51 No, not at all. So I've got something I wanna teach you about.

Mark Normand 1:02:53 Okay,

Mark Normand 1:02:54 great.

Chris Williamson 1:02:54 Women are loving men who embrace baby girl vibe and ditch toxic masculinity. Delving into the new trend of baby girl-

Mark Normand 1:03:01 Baby girl.

Chris Williamson 1:03:02 ... following Jacob Elordi, Timothée Chalamet, Pedro Pascal, and more. This includes men carrying purses, wearing shorts and sequins, and embracing the traditionally feminine aspect. A man who's a baby girl comes across as sweet, charming, a bit bashful, and seemingly in touch with their feminine side-

Mark Normand 1:03:17 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:17 ... ready to talk about their feelings or carry a purse to brunch at any point. Heterosexual women, especially Gen Z'ers, are rusting, which means romanticizing and lusting. I, I thought rusting might mean something else. After men that they consider to be baby girl. This trend signals a sharp departure from the uber-masculine sex symbols of previous generations, a lady explained to The Post, "And men outside the limelight are taking note. I think the definition of what is masculine is changing." Uh, the director of Tawkify matchmaking service told The Post, "Some traditional masculine norms are sh- are shifting. Masculinity today is not about being a tough guy, but about being honest, respectful, protective, and emotionally expressive. About 31% of American men have actively changed their behavior to become more vulnerable and open with people they are dating, according to Bumble's 2024 Dating Trends report."

Mark Normand 1:04:04 Well, I think this is nothing new. You know, like, like Mick Jagger, David Bowie, they, they all went through this, like, uh, what, what do you call that when you're, you're kind of feminine and masculine?

Chris Williamson 1:04:14 Like metrosexual, yeah.

Mark Normand 1:04:15 Andro- androgynous.

Chris Williamson 1:04:16 Right.

Mark Normand 1:04:16 Androgynous. Like, I think this is, you know, in the '60s, guys grew their hair long, and every dad was like, "You fucking homo. Look at, look at this. Get a haircut, pussy." And I think, uh, that was crazy then, you know, having long hair or tight pants or whatever. So I think this is just, this is just another swing of this, and masculinity is the norm, so we gotta go against the norm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:36 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:04:36 And then eventually, baby girl, whatever will be the norm, and then being masculine will be weird, so that'll be in.

Chris Williamson 1:04:42 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:04:42 So I think it just, it'll all just flip and flop.

Chris Williamson 1:04:45 Everyone's affected by whatever looks novel.

Mark Normand 1:04:47 Yes. Hey, that's a better way to, concise way to say it.

Chris Williamson 1:04:50 I've been, me and my housemate have been thinking a lot about things that are bitch that you don't realize are bitch. So trying to pick up a moving ping pong ball.

Mark Normand 1:04:59 Ah. (laughs) That's a great one.

Chris Williamson 1:05:02 Very bitch. Starting-

Mark Normand 1:05:03 That's great.

Chris Williamson 1:05:04 ... a stopped bicycle.

Mark Normand 1:05:06 Oh yeah, that kinda awkward...

Chris Williamson 1:05:09 Yep.

Mark Normand 1:05:09 Ooh, I got one.

Chris Williamson 1:05:10 Yep.

Mark Normand 1:05:11 You know when you close the door and it doesn't clo- the car door, and it doesn't, doesn't latch all the way and you gotta give it that booty bump?

Chris Williamson 1:05:16 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:05:17 I hate the booty bump, but you gotta do it.

Chris Williamson 1:05:19 Ah. (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:05:20 These are great. This could be like a TikTok, uh, running series.

Chris Williamson 1:05:23 Uh, wearing, as a man, wearing a towel wrapped around your upper chest rather than wrapped around-

Mark Normand 1:05:29 (laughs) Yes. Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:05:30 ... your waist. Uh-

Mark Normand 1:05:31 Oh, I got another one. You know, standing like this is very masculine, but if you just rotate it like that, it's so much gayer.

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:05:39 What is that? Why? It's just the same hand, same hip, but if you flip it, you look so, you look so much more feminine.

Chris Williamson 1:05:46 Doing that thing when you wash your hands.

Mark Normand 1:05:48 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:48 You know, the interlace of the finger from behind.

Mark Normand 1:05:50 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:51 That's pre- that's pretty bitch. Um, turning a- he has, Zach has one which is turning around ever. So if you walk past the entrance to somewhere, you're going around the block and coming back in. 'Cause if you go... And then turn around-

Mark Normand 1:06:05 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:05 ... it's like, that's pretty bitch.

Mark Normand 1:06:06 That's good.

Chris Williamson 1:06:07 Um, he had one at dinner the other evening, which we were sat outside and the receipt blew off the front of the table. And we've been talking about things that are bitch that you don't realize are bitch for six months now.

Mark Normand 1:06:18 This is gold.

Chris Williamson 1:06:19 We've accumulated this huge, big, long list of them.

Mark Normand 1:06:21 Love it.

Chris Williamson 1:06:21 I could go for the rest of the podcast.

Mark Normand 1:06:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:23 And I was watching it, and we hadn't come up with chasing a receipt blown in the wind.

Mark Normand 1:06:27 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 1:06:27 And I was watching it happen, and sure enough, the wind picked up and you sort of, you know, you bend over and you (groans) that, and then it goes away again. And I was, and he came back over and he went, "This is adding, this is being added to the list, isn't it?"

Mark Normand 1:06:38 That's a great one.

Chris Williamson 1:06:39 "I'm going, 'Yep, it's getting added to the list.'"

Mark Normand 1:06:40 I would say applying chapstick can be pretty bad.

Chris Williamson 1:06:43 Oh, eating a banana.

Mark Normand 1:06:44 Banana, classic. Oh, I, oh, a heavy door. You ever had a, you ever have a door where you're like, "Gah."

Chris Williamson 1:06:49 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:06:49 Oh, it takes all the manly confidence out of you when the door's too heavy.

Chris Williamson 1:06:52 (laughs) Uh, sleeping in a blanket with your arms all the way under as opposed to having your arms out.

Mark Normand 1:06:59 Oh, interesting.

Chris Williamson 1:07:00 I think that's pretty bitch. Um, holding a coffee mug with both hands.

Mark Normand 1:07:04 Yes! That's a great one.

Chris Williamson 1:07:06 Mass- massively bitch.

Mark Normand 1:07:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:08 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:07:09 My, uh, wife, she says if I see a guy with flip-flops, the vagina is just f- just sewn up.

Chris Williamson 1:07:16 Like the, the, those ones? Like the-

Mark Normand 1:07:17 The tong. It's the idea of that thing between the toe that really freaks her out.

Chris Williamson 1:07:21 (laughs)

Mark Normand 1:07:21 She's like, "It slides, I'll do a slide, but the tong is what gets you."

Chris Williamson 1:07:25 Which is interesting because Crocs are obviously the most sexually arousing-

Mark Normand 1:07:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:29 ... type of footwear that are, that are available.

Mark Normand 1:07:32 You know what my favorite thing about Crocs are? That, that flap, that little ankle holder?

Chris Williamson 1:07:36 Yep.

Mark Normand 1:07:36 If you put that up, it's called sport mode.

Chris Williamson 1:07:38 Yep.

Mark Normand 1:07:38 Which to me is, like, what are we, kidding?

Chris Williamson 1:07:41 No, that's sp- this is th- that there... Look, I just-

Mark Normand 1:07:43 But sport, what, are you gonna go run a mile with that?

Chris Williamson 1:07:45 That's, that's sport mode.

Mark Normand 1:07:45 (laughs) You're gonna play football?

Chris Williamson 1:07:46 Someone's r- There is a Croc marathon record.

Mark Normand 1:07:50 Come on. Really?

Chris Williamson 1:07:52 Yep. There's a Croc mile and there's a Croc marathon record. People can go and look this u- look this up online.

Mark Normand 1:07:56 I will.

Chris Williamson 1:07:56 Yeah.

Mark Normand 1:07:57 I'm sure it's, uh, elite athletes.

Chris Williamson 1:07:58 Yeah. Well, look, I think that,

Chris Williamson 1:08:00 um... Oh, do you know what the Beer Mile is? Have you heard of this?

Mark Normand 1:08:02 No.

Chris Williamson 1:08:02 Okay. Well, it's, I think it's technically called the Chunda Mile, but, um, you do, I think, four laps of a 400-meter track, which would be 1.6K. I think that's a mile, I think 1.6. Or maybe th- you start a tiny bit behind the line or something to absolutely nail it. And at the beginning of each mile, or at the beginning of each lap, you drink a bottle of beer, I think, or maybe it's a pint. I think it's a pint of beer. So it's four pints and four laps of a running track, one mile.

Mark Normand 1:08:34 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:08:34 And this is a very prestigious, in the running world, super prestigious record. Super pre- Like, the guy that wins this, there's an entire channel that's, that's committed to it, and they track all of the things, and there's people that... And they've got, you know, tactics for how they're gonna drink. And it's not just your ability to run, it's your ability to not run and not throw up, and it's called the Chunda Mile because as soon as everybody finishes-

Mark Normand 1:08:55 Puke?

Chris Williamson 1:08:55 ... four pints, two liters of beer just comes back out of them.

Mark Normand 1:08:59 Oh, I love it.

Chris Williamson 1:09:00 And, uh, it's a-

Mark Normand 1:09:01 That's fun.

Chris Williamson 1:09:01 It's, like, highly held, uh-

Mark Normand 1:09:03 Really?

Chris Williamson 1:09:03 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mark Normand 1:09:04 This should be televised. This is way more, way better than pickleball.

Chris Williamson 1:09:07 (laughs) Dude, I think-

Mark Normand 1:09:09 I do love pickleball.

Chris Williamson 1:09:10 I adore pickleball.

Mark Normand 1:09:11 Me too.

Chris Williamson 1:09:12 Problem is, it's the, it's got the highest disparity between how fun it is to watch-

Mark Normand 1:09:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:19 ... and how fun it is to play.

Mark Normand 1:09:20 Great point. So true.

Chris Williamson 1:09:21 There is no more boring sport to watch.

Mark Normand 1:09:23 It's like scissoring. Way more fun to do. Watching scissoring, I don't love.

Chris Williamson 1:09:29 Ah.

Mark Normand 1:09:30 But yeah, you're right, and I always say pickleball is like COVID 'cause it swept the nation and old people love it and fat people are scared of it.

Chris Williamson 1:09:36 Have you played Padel? Have you tried that?

Mark Normand 1:09:39 No (laughs) . Is that paddle?

Chris Williamson 1:09:40 So that's a... Yeah, paddle, whatever. I don't know. It... I, I'm around some people that are European and they call it Padel, but I think that maybe Padel is something different to paddle. I don't know. Anyway.

Mark Normand 1:09:47 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:09:48 I tried to play it over the weekend-

Mark Normand 1:09:50 Like Tarzan.

Chris Williamson 1:09:50 ... in Miami, and, uh, I've decided that pickleball is tennis for old people.

Mark Normand 1:09:56 Yep.

Chris Williamson 1:09:56 And Padel is tennis for rich people, because it's all... Everyone that's there has got some-

Mark Normand 1:10:02 Got it.

Chris Williamson 1:10:03 ... nice Rolex on, and everyone's like... It, I don't know. It just... It was a very strange sport, and I'm all for pickleball, and I think that Padel can go fuck itself.

Mark Normand 1:10:11 Okay. Okay. Yeah. Pickleball, to me, is so perfect. I don't wanna try anything di- uh, different 'cause I love it.

Chris Williamson 1:10:17 You wa- Do you play, uh, indoors or outdoors? Oh, you must be playing indoors in New York. It'd be way too cold.

Mark Normand 1:10:20 New York's mostly indoors, but there's a basketball court two blocks away from my house, and it's just been... The basketball is over. It's all pickleball. It's a bunch of yuppies out there with little nets going at it.

Chris Williamson 1:10:30 I would love to see street ball New York players-

Mark Normand 1:10:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:34 ... coming up against iced soy frappe-

Mark Normand 1:10:37 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 1:10:39 ... like-

Mark Normand 1:10:39 It's, it's total gentrification of sport.

Chris Williamson 1:10:41 (laughs) Of the, of the sport ball.

Mark Normand 1:10:43 Yeah. Yeah, well, it used to be, like, this gritty kind of, uh, yeah, like, real basketball court with, like, street guys.

Chris Williamson 1:10:49 That's a great skit if you did a, like-

Mark Normand 1:10:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:52 It's the, it's the pickleball gentrification. It's got nothing to do with the number of Starbucks that you've got or whether or not there's a Chipotle.

Mark Normand 1:11:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:00 Like, that's when you know that somewhere's been fully gentrified when there's a Chipotle. And-

Mark Normand 1:11:03 True.

Chris Williamson 1:11:03 And then, uh, it would just be through pickleball.

Mark Normand 1:11:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11:07 All