Should I Work For Myself? | Business Principles 102 | Modern Wisdom Podcast 106

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:00 If you're in a job, you're thinking about leaving it, and you've experienced a pay rise, and your happiness hasn't increased in proportion to the pay rise, leave.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 0:06 Or self-medication.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:08 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 0:08 When the existential pain starts to bear so much on your shoulders that you're like, "I'm gonna just blast myself on Friday to Sunday."

Chris Williamson 0:16 I'm just going to ingest things.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:18 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 0:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:19 In the desperate hope that it's going to make this job feel less shit-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:22 That, that make this hurt not quite as much.

Chris Williamson 0:22 People should be allowed to enjoy themselves on a weekend, but if that enjoyment is medication, or if that enjoyment on a weekend is, if it's done in an effort to be like an anesthetic for what's going on in the week.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:32 People think, they start a job, they're like fresh out of school, fresh out of uni, and they're like, "Oh, it's a bit crap, but it'll probably get better." And then like (laughs) 20 years later, it's no better.

Chris Williamson 0:40 It's not got better. (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:41 The person who loves the nine-to-five job is the person who is all right with the shit things about the nine-to-five job. The person who's good as an entrepreneur is the person who's all right with the fact that like next month-

Chris Williamson 0:51 You might make no money.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:52 ... you might, you might make no money. Ne- you know, next month-

Chris Williamson 0:54 Oh.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 0:54 ... in six months, you might be out of business.

Chris Williamson 0:56 Can you deal with potentially going for two months or three months without earning any money?

Chris Williamson 1:04 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by Johnny and Yusuf from propanefitness.com. Business Principles 102. 102. Did so good-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:15 102, geez.

Chris Williamson 1:15 Did so good on the last one, done gone, gonna do it again.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:19 Doing another one.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:20 Gone and do another one.

Chris Williamson 1:21 Was one of our most popular, uh, new episodes that we've released in a while. Went down super, super well. And this episode is brought to you by so right. Uh, if you haven't seen one of these before, Joe Rogan and David Goggins went on about it for ages on their podcast together, and it shut their website down.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:41 Wow.

Chris Williamson 1:41 So there's a business principle for you. Make sure you got enough server space.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:45 That if Joe Rogan and David Goggins start talking about your product, doesn't break.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:49 Be ready.

Chris Williamson 1:49 Be ready. Um, so it is a psoas manipulation tool. If you sit down at a desk all day, we are talking business principles. If you tu- sit down at a desk all day, you will have a tight psoas. I'm right in saying it's the only muscle which actually connects the trunk to the spine. Is that right? Or one of the primary muscles that does it.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:06 Um, so it gets tight when you sit down. That helps to relieve it. We've all got one, and we've been using them pretty regularly. Does help when you've been sat cranking out a big long day in the office and, to relieve things. So all that you need to do, leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you are listening, and I'll pick someone at random.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 2:23 Sorry, it's not the only muscle that connects-

Chris Williamson 2:25 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 2:25 ... (laughs) the trunk to the spine. It's the only muscle that crosses the pelvis-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:29 That connects it to the trunk, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:30 Yeah. Thank you very much. There we go. Wow. A little bit-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:32 The psoas, I think, is the, is a filet mignon on a cow.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 2:35 Oh.

Chris Williamson 2:35 That's interesting.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:36 I think. I think so.

Chris Williamson 2:36 So it can eat...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 2:37 You'll have a great filet mignon.

Chris Williamson 2:39 So if I cook you, if I cook you-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 2:40 After using the psoas right, then it would be more tender.

Chris Williamson 2:42 ... tender. Lovely.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:43 It's not load-bearing in a cow, which is why it's so tender.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 2:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:45 Interesting. So, uh, business principles 102.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:50 We talked about a lot last time. We talked about-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 2:53 Like...

Chris Williamson 2:53 ... our sort of genesis stories for business, about, um, how we got started, about how useless a university degree is-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 3:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:03 ... when it comes to running a business. Um, so one of the main questions that we get asked a lot is when someone should make the decision about whether or not to leave their current employment and take the big leap-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 3:19 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 3:19 Pull the pin.

Chris Williamson 3:19 ... into being self-employed. Yeah. Pulling that pin. You started to talk about your decision when you were sat on a couch that I no longer have.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 3:28 I think I'd made the decision-

Chris Williamson 3:30 By then?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 3:30 ... by then.

Chris Williamson 3:30 Yeah. Um, so it is-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 3:34 It's, yeah, it's like jumping out of a plane and hoping that the parachute cord works.

Chris Williamson 3:38 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 3:40 People make the decision often either way too prematurely, like, "Oh, mate, I'm going to start like a new tea company. It's going to be sick."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 3:48 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 3:49 "I've not got any clients yet."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 3:51 It's so accurate. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 3:52 (laughs) "I've got no clients, but, like, I'm working, uh, I'm just gonna quit my job. Like, I'm currently working as, like, a management consultant, you know, but

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 3:59 anyway, like, I, I know that, like, I just need, like, two days, get my drop shipping sorted, gonna set..."

Chris Williamson 4:05 No.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 4:05 And it's like, "Go on."

Chris Williamson 4:06 Mate, you are eight months away from launch, and you have two weeks of money in the bank.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 4:11 No, no. See, because like, you know, "Oh, I, I've got a logo. Uh, my mate's a designer and he's gonna..."

Chris Williamson 4:16 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 4:17 "... he's gonna make my... Look." And you're like, "Oh, no, just wait until your, your reven- your profits start to like eclipse your salary."

Chris Williamson 4:24 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 4:24 And then it's like, "Oh, okay."

Chris Williamson 4:26 There we go.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 4:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:27 So I think one of the cool, interesting little thought experiments that we've done over the last couple of years, which is a good strategy to do with other people as well. If you hear someone complaining about their job or complaining about their boss or whatever it might be, this is a good strategy to use on them. And we promised that we were going to do it before the last one. So (inhales) what we're going to do is we're going to take a salary. Now, at home you can take your own salary and deduct as is appropriate, but we'll have to... Johnny, I'm going to pretend that you are a person in a normal, s- some normal job. Let's say that your take-home pay per year is 20,000 pounds, okay?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:04 Gross.

Chris Williamson 5:06 N-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 5:06 Take-home.

Chris Williamson 5:07 Net.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 5:07 'Cause you live in net land.

Chris Williamson 5:08 Oh, okay.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 5:10 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:10 (laughs) Let's say, let's say, let's say 20 grand. So that's about th- sh- 1,200 quid a month, I think.

Chris Williamson 5:19 Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:19 Net. Received, I believe.

Chris Williamson 5:21 Okay. So-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 5:22 If it's 20 grand gross-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:23 Do you, do not believe me?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 5:24 ... if it's 20 grand net-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:26 20 grand gross.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 5:27 Oh, 20 grand.

Chris Williamson 5:27 20 grand gross. And that's like a, maybe a just below a starting salary for a graduate scheme, something like that. Maybe 21, 22.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:33 Yeah, I think, I think it's pretty much at a starting salary.

Chris Williamson 5:35 Cool. So you've got 20 grand and I'm going to... You are the normal graduate scheme, but let's imagine that you're someone who's a little bit unhappy with their job, thinking about maybe starting up their own thing. I'm going to offer you some concessions at work.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:49 So this is, this was me?

Chris Williamson 5:50 Yep. I'm gonna offer you some concessions-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:53 Okay.

Chris Williamson 5:53 ... and I want you to tell me how much of your wage you're going to give me back-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 5:58 Exhales sharply ]

Chris Williamson 5:58 ... for the things that I'm offering that you can have.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:00 Okay. Am I doing this as me?

Chris Williamson 6:02 Uh, as you.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:03 Or-

Chris Williamson 6:03 As you in the role that you were-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:05 All right.

Chris Williamson 6:05 ... at the job that you were at at the time that you left.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:08 All right. All right. Okay.

Chris Williamson 6:08 So-You are allowed to wear your own clothes whenever you want, so you don't need to go to work in office dress.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:17 Okay.

Chris Williamson 6:17 How much are you gonna give me back?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 6:19 Per month or per year?

Chris Williamson 6:20 Per year. Just take it off the 20.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:24 So, yeah. I have trouble fitting into suits. Let's say, 100 quid.

Chris Williamson 6:33 Across the whole year.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:34 Oh, across the whole year? I thought this was monthly.

Chris Williamson 6:35 No. So a grand and a half.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:37 Oh, no, no. I can't think like that. I can't think like ... Can we do monthly?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 6:40 (laughs) £1,200 a year, £100 a month. But then in gross and net-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:48 Yeah, that's what I mean.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 6:49 ... it messes, messes it up.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:49 I, I, I get 1,200 quid a month, and in exchange for go- for that 1,200 quid a month, I have to go somewhere and do stuff, dress in a certain way, at a certain time.

Chris Williamson 6:57 Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 6:58 So you're saying I have to do all that, but I can go-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 7:02 Pajamas.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:02 ... jogging bottoms and T-shirt.

Chris Williamson 7:04 Yeah. Yeah. How much are you gonna give me?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:05 100 quid.

Chris Williamson 7:06 100 quid a month.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:06 So I've got 1,100 quid left.

Chris Williamson 7:07 Okay.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 7:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:09 Now you can choose your own start time.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:12 (sighs)

Chris Williamson 7:12 And you can choose if you want to have weekends off. You can ... Basically ultimate flexi time.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:16 Okay.

Chris Williamson 7:17 Could get up at 6:00 PM at night and do the shift.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:19 So I've got to do 35 hours a week, but as I please?

Chris Williamson 7:22 Yes.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:27 (sighs)

Chris Williamson 7:27 I can't believe you gave me a hundred quid back per month just so you could wear

Narrator 7:29 clothes.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:29 I know. I over ... I overdid that, didn't I?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 7:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:32 I've got it now. Sorry.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:33 Fuck. 'Cause I've, I've boxed myself out of a situation here.

Chris Williamson 7:36 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:36 'Cause soon I'll just have nothing.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 7:38 Well, he can renege on the, on the 100 quid, so he can-

Chris Williamson 7:40 Can't renege.

Chris Williamson 7:41 He's given us it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 7:41 He's already given back it?

Chris Williamson 7:42 How much are you, how much, how much are you-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:43 200 quid.

Chris Williamson 7:44 Another 200?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:45 For you to be able to flex around?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:47 Well, because now ... Hold on. Is location flexed? Still got to go to the place.

Chris Williamson 7:51 Still got to go to work.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:52 100.

Chris Williamson 7:53 100.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:53 I would- I should have done 50 for the clothes.

Chris Williamson 7:55 Come on. Too late. Sorry. So you're at a grand.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:57 The suits don't fit me.

Chris Williamson 7:58 You're at a grand a month now.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 7:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:00 Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:00 And I'm naked and-

Chris Williamson 8:03 Potentially.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:03 ... coming in whenever I want.

Chris Williamson 8:05 Yeah. Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:06 Pretty good situation, Dean, wouldn't you say?

Chris Williamson 8:07 Pretty good situation.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:08 For a grand a month.

Chris Williamson 8:09 Yeah. Not bad.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:11 Um, now you don't have to interact with anyone at work that you don't want to.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 8:20 (sighs) No, thank you.

Chris Williamson 8:21 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 8:21 That's fine.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:22 So does that ... I'm gonna be difficult. Does that mean that, like, a boss comes up to me and goes, "You've got to do this."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 8:28 And you just go la-la, la-la?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:29 And they just go, "Uh, well no, but it would be-"

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 8:32 Black mirror blocking style.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:33 Uh, it would be submitted through someone that you actually liked.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:37 Okay.

Chris Williamson 8:37 Everyone that you worked with would be-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:38 Doesn't affect my work flow?

Chris Williamson 8:40 Everyone that you worked with would be someone that you liked.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:42 So you're not gonna get much for that.

Chris Williamson 8:43 Okay. How much am I gonna get?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 8:45 Why, why not for that?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:46 Just because I think the thing that affects you most is, like, what you're doing.

Chris Williamson 8:51 Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:51 And, like, most of the stuff that happens is on a screen.

Chris Williamson 8:53 Okay, so-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 8:53 In most people's jobs. You can have, you can have 50 quid for that.

Chris Williamson 8:57 50 quid. Okay, so we're at 950. Uh, now-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:00 Oh.

Chris Williamson 9:00 Now you're allowed to work from home.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:02 (exhales) Hello. The thing is, I'm ... Oh, fucking hell.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:08 (laughs) You can see the accountant in him just being like, "Oh right, so I can live on-"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:11 Well, because soon I'm gonna have, like, still a fairly shit situation for, like, 400 quid a month.

Chris Williamson 9:17 Okay. Keep-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:17 All right. Well, I'll just go with his price.

Chris Williamson 9:18 Come on. So how much are you, how much are you giving me for working from home?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:20 100 quid.

Chris Williamson 9:21 Another 100 quid. So 850 we're down to now. Seth, you got any concessions that you can think of here that we would be able-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:27 Okay.

Chris Williamson 9:27 ... to tempt him with?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:29 So we have flexi time.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:30 How about work that I like?

Chris Williamson 9:32 We're getting onto that.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:33 All right, okay.

Chris Williamson 9:33 'Cause that's the, that's the fucking tip of the spear.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:35 Oh, I see. That's where it just goes to zero?

Chris Williamson 9:37 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:37 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:37 We have lo- freedom of location.

Chris Williamson 9:39 Yep. We have working with people that you like.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:43 Which didn't get much interest.

Chris Williamson 9:45 Yeah. No, no, it didn't really, didn't really-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:47 It didn't take-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:48 No, no. You didn't say that.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 9:49 ... take off.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:49 You said I don't have to speak to people that I don't like.

Chris Williamson 9:51 You don't have to work with people you don't li- Well, yeah, that, I mean, on the flip side of that, it's working with people that you do like.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 9:56 But those people are there now. There's just also some people there I don't like.

Chris Williamson 9:59 Right, but they're not there anymore, so that's-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:01 Well, they are for me.

Chris Williamson 10:01 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:02 Oh, no. I paid for that, didn't I? They're gone.

Chris Williamson 10:03 Yeah, they're gone.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:04 What did I pay, 50 quid?

Chris Williamson 10:05 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:07 I'm happy with that. I paid too much for their clothes, Dean.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:09 Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:09 Payed too much for their clothes.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:10 So the, the ... You're allowed to take the worst 20% of tasks that you do-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:19 Ooh.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:19 ... that provide you with the 80% of ball ache, and you can outsource that.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:26 So is that reducing my hours?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:29 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:30 So I'm-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:30 Oh, well, no. It would not-

Chris Williamson 10:31 No, no.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:31 It would have to. It would have to rise.

Chris Williamson 10:32 Keep him, keeping his hours the same.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:33 So, so your-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:33 I'm not paying for that.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:34 ... your hour is the same, but your, your, what you would do day-to-day, what fills those hours is the nicer tasks, so-

Chris Williamson 10:39 You're not paying for it.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:40 No.

Chris Williamson 10:40 Okay. How about ... Here's this. You're no longer paid based on your hourly wage, your hourly wage. You're only based on work done. You have an allocation-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:48 That's more like it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:50 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:51 200 quid.

Chris Williamson 10:52 650. So you not-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 10:55 'Cause I'll just do a morning.

Chris Williamson 10:56 Mm-hmm. 'Cause you can crack out the work of a-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 10:59 But then this assumes that-

Chris Williamson 10:59 You can crack out the work of a normal human in a, in a morning easily.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:02 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:02 Well, this, this is assuming that, like, in a 35-hour work week, you can do it in less time if you just work harder.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:08 You definitely can.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:10 You can?

Chris Williamson 11:10 Categorically can.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:11 But, but then that, that would suggest that the initial allocation of work was too low, so-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:16 It suggests that ... Well, I think in some, in some cases-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:19 'Cause if we

Chris Williamson 11:19 It's not, it's ... As, as in your job, you, when you completed work, you just got given more.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:24 You get more. But we were equalizing for hours on the previous question.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:26 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:26 And now in this one, yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:26 But

Chris Williamson 11:27 that's why we were said no, he said no, so I've renegotiated.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:30 'Cause you have people react to incentives. So if your incentive is, "I have some work to do, but I have to say till five o'clock", are you going to work fast or not? Or slow or medium?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:40 Exactly. You, you are slowed down.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:41 You'll just pace it out, won't you?

Chris Williamson 11:42 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:42 Well, there's no reason to rush, 'cause you've got to do Monday to Friday, you've got to do your nine-to-five.

Chris Williamson 11:46 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:46 Someone says to you-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 11:47 If I finish my work too quickly-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:48 "Scone, you can go home at midday if you just do it all." What happens to scone?

Chris Williamson 11:52 Hmm. But the concern is then that you rush so much that your work gets done at a lower quality, isn't it?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 11:57 As long as it's at a quality that's enough.

Chris Williamson 11:59 So we're now at six-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:00 So at the moment, at the moment, I'm working a morning.

Chris Williamson 12:03 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:03 I'm naked. In fact, no, I can work whenever I want. I mean, I'll do 4:00 AM-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 12:07 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:08 ... till 8:00 AM. I'm gonna do all my work for the week naked in the office before anyone gets in.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 12:13 And you don't have to speak to anyone else.

Chris Williamson 12:14 I mean, you work from home. You're working from home.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:16 Am I? Have we done that one?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 12:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:18 Have we said that you work from home?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:19 When did we do that? Yeah, but I bought, I bought that.

Chris Williamson 12:20 You paid for it, yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:21 Wow.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 12:21 He bought it.

Chris Williamson 12:21 Dungum paid for it.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:22 So I'm getting 600 quid for a couple of hours' work on a Monday morning, naked at home?

Chris Williamson 12:27 Yep.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:28 Sounds all right.

Chris Williamson 12:29 Sounds pretty good.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:30 Sounds, (laughs) sounds very like my life.

Chris Williamson 12:31 So my point is, and we can take this all the way up, I could say how much would it be to exchange the, um, job that you're doing for something which you have full, complete, and c- creative control over?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:41 (smacks lips)

Chris Williamson 12:42 How much would it be for me to get you to, um, be able to have your wage grow in line with the value that you create for the business that you are working in?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 12:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:53 Keep on chugging away. And I've managed-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 12:55 You feel like you're adding val- Like, y- you feel satisfaction from what you do

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 13:00 and (overlapping speech)

Chris Williamson 13:00 So you can imagine that if you, if you're listening at home, like, think about this in your own head. Think about how many concessions you could make with all of this sort of stuff. I've managed to sit around a dinner table and get someone to pay me to come to his job.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 13:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:12 Like, hated his job a lot more than you did, and you weren't a massive fan.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 13:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:16 Um, but was just so keen to get out of the office, get away from the people he didn't like, not have to wear the shit suits, not have to fucking blah, blah, blah, all that sort of s- bollocks.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 13:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:24 Um, (clicks tongue) he was paying me to go to his job.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 13:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:30 I mean, like, uh, how much do you need to hate your job-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 13:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:33 ... to pay someone not to have to do it anymore?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 13:35 It, I, I think the, um... So someone messaged me about accountancy after the last episode.

Chris Williamson 13:41 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 13:42 And there's something that he said in the message which resonated with me, and I think this is probably the ca- Anyone who, like, doesn't like their job, we need to go into box A, box B stuff at some point, right?

Chris Williamson 13:51 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 13:51 I think people think they start a job, they're like n- 19, fresh out of, of... How old are you? 21.

Chris Williamson 13:58 (clears throat)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 13:58 Or fresh out of school, fresh out of uni, and they're like, "Oh, it's a bit crap, but it'll probably get better." And then, like, 20 years later, it's

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:05 no better.

Chris Williamson 14:05 Not got better. (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:06 Because of course it isn't gonna get better. Like, uh, uh, (clicks tongue) at 21, everything is completely novel, everything's brand new. It's the first time you've done everything. People are really not expecting very much from you. You get to go home at five o'clock. Like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 14:18 And you've got your health. You've got no commitments.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:20 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 14:20 You've got no dependents financially.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:22 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 14:22 Usually, your parents are in good health, like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:25 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 14:25 ... you're in a, y- you might be in a relationship, or you might, you know, be...

Chris Williamson 14:29 The dark specter

Chris Williamson 14:30 of mortality hasn't started to hang over you yet.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:32 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 14:33 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 14:33 The sigh. But I suppose, like, you maybe aren't adding much value, it doesn't feel that rewarding at that point, but I definitely felt, like, joined and felt like this, like, "This r- wasn't really what I was expecting." I waited and hoped that it would get better, and it didn't really. And also, s- something else for me was I, I could see, because of the way the job I did worked, I could see people who were like five, six, seven years down the line. And I'm looking at them going like...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 14:58 That's, that was the big one for me. Looking at my seniors and saying, "They are miserable-"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:04 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 15:04 "... tired. They look old for their age."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:05 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 15:06 "And they're-"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:07 And they would just moan. They would just moan about it. And I'm like, if they, if they'd all been, like, going home at three o'clock in their Aventador-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 15:13 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:13 ... to a, you know, a mansion in the, in the hills, I'd be like, "Fine." You know, like, at least, like, we're all on the same page here. Like, it's a bit shit, but look what happens in, you know...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 15:23 Because the salary progresses like that.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 15:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:25 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:25 But yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 15:26 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:26 So you could see that, and I think people hold onto something because they always think, "Oh, well, it'll turn around. It'll get better. It'll get better." And then before you know it, you're 50, uh, and it's all too late.

Chris Williamson 15:38 In a typical job, you're totally right.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:40 So you buy your own clothes.

Chris Williamson 15:40 You, you have the ability to see your future years within that company ahead of you.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:46 And it's your boss, and your boss's boss.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:48 And so on and so forth.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:49 And sometimes, like some people will think, like, I'm really jealous of my boss. And definitely, like, the boss of most companies is doing all right.

Chris Williamson 15:54 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:54 But, you know, most organizations are also like that.

Chris Williamson 15:57 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:57 They aren't like that.

Chris Williamson 15:58 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 15:58 Like, everybody doesn't become the boss-

Chris Williamson 16:00 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:00 ... and earn the top salary. So, like, by definition, there's n- there's a process of elimination. So that's when the thought process for me came in of, like, "Well, all right. There's, at some point, it's gonna be me versus him in an interview. And I just want to go home at five o'clock."

Chris Williamson 16:15 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:15 "And he loves staying till eight. Who's gonna win the interview?"

Chris Williamson 16:19 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:20 So then, that, so all the questions you're asking me, like, what I actually think is the best... The, the number one reason to leave is if you just do something that you like doing, then you don't really think about... Like, I don't care about any of that stuff, really. Like, I don't really care about now how many hours I'm working.

Chris Williamson 16:37 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:38 Or I, I mean, I'm aware of it.

Chris Williamson 16:40 I mean, you-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:40 But-

Chris Williamson 16:40 ... have had to create automatic structures on your laptop-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:46 ... to stop you from working.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:48 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:49 You, you have an app on your laptop which shuts it down at five o'clock no matter what you're doing. If you're in the middle of an email-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:55 ... or sending out an SOS call 'cause you've been hit by a car.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:57 Like, there is a thing that stops your laptop from working.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 16:59 Because, because that's, you know, that's what normal people do, and I have to try and be normal sometimes.

Chris Williamson 17:04 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:04 Like, we have conversations with girlfriends where it's like, you're on holiday and you're like, "Please, please, can I just have a couple of hours to work in the morning?"

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:12 Oh, yeah. I, I-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:13 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:14 I had a, I had a difficult negotiation of like, "Right, we're going away for four days."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:19 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:19 "It is longer than I can tolerate-"

Chris Williamson 17:22 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:22 "... without work. I'm gonna have to... I'll, I'll get up earlier, and I'm gonna have to do five to six hours in the mornings."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:28 And it was like, "What? No, that's ridiculous." Yes, I know, but-

Chris Williamson 17:31 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:32 ... here we are (overlapping speech)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:32 Well, I'm sorry about me. Yeah, sorry, sorry for being me. But yeah, so like, you don't... I, there's a, there was a, a palpable shift for me from like, "I'm here. I'm resenting it. I want to go home. I want to be let out of this."

Chris Williamson 17:44 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:45 To like, "Actually, I don't mind," like if I'm work- watching, something like Love Island's on in the background, I'm like, you know-

Chris Williamson 17:52 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:52 ... quick bit of work, quick email.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 17:54 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 17:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:54 So, so okay, so someone, someone might be unhappy in their job. Um, what are some of the real key triggers that you think people need to be looking out for? Because unfortunately, this is one area of business/careers which I'm wholly unqualified to talk about because I've never, except for a summer at the AA...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:15 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:16 ... had a job. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:17 (laughs) Summer at the AA.

Chris Williamson 18:18 I was, like, on the call, uh, on the phones.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:20 You weren't, like, driving the truck to your... No.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 18:22 No, no, no.

Chris Williamson 18:22 I would've been-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:22 Did not know about this.

Chris Williamson 18:23 I, it was, you d- you didn't know me at the time, but I just did, I did calling during my placement, yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:28 Right.

Chris Williamson 18:29 I was like, "Oh, I need some extra cash." So I went and did that for four months.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:33 Didn't like it, I'm guessing. You're not going to go, "Oh, loved it." (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 18:36 Are you fucking with me?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:37 "Was class."

Chris Williamson 18:38 Uh, no.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:39 Okay, interesting. So number one behavior, pacifying behavior, so self-medication.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 18:47 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 18:47 When the, the, the existential pain starts to bear so much on your shoulders that you're like, "I'm gonna just blast myself on Friday to Sunday, get absolutely-"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:00 With all sorts.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:01 With, with all sorts.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:02 (laughs) Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:03 Um-

Chris Williamson 19:03 I'm just going to ingest things.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:05 Yeah, yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:06 You, you, th-

Chris Williamson 19:06 In the desperate hope that it's gonna make this job-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:07 That makes this hurt not quite as much.

Chris Williamson 19:09 ... feel less shit.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:09 It's exactly

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:10 that, yeah, yeah. It's like ingest things. So, like, looking for inane types of media to consume, putting calorie... very calorie-dense things in your mouth. Um-

Chris Williamson 19:21 Cream.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:21 Cre- putting cream in your mouth.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:23 Just one form of medication after another.

Chris Williamson 19:25 Putting... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:26 Like, lots of-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:27 I d- I joke about the cream, but people do, like, overconsume alcohol, like, get a takeaway on a Friday night because it's Friday.

Chris Williamson 19:33 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:33 Like, you know, "Oh, well, I'll have a special breakfast on Saturday 'cause it's Saturday." And, like, they're creating this, like, perfect world over a weekend.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:41 Of, like, of, of bingeing behavior.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 19:43 Because the week is so unpleasant.

Chris Williamson 19:44 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:44 And it's, uh, this is different to work hard, play hard. I don't think it's the same. I think, um, work hard, play hard is, like, have defined time boxes for when you do productive, deep work, and have times where you're relaxing fully.

Chris Williamson 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 19:55 That's not the same as spending Friday to Sunday semi-conscious and then rolling into Monday being like-

Chris Williamson 20:01 Work hard, drink hard.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:02 ... "Oh, here we go again."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:03 It's, I suppose it's like the living, the living for the weekend thing, isn't it? Like, if you really, like, you know when people, like, post everything on Instagram being like, "Oh, hump day," and all the shit about like, "Oh, it's Wednesday," or, "Halfway through the shit."

Chris Williamson 20:15 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:15 "Closer to 1:00, you know, closer to Friday when I can go out, and get drunk, and forget about Monday to Friday."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:20 I don't mean to judge people that do this, by the way. Like, this is definitely an experience that we've, we've been through ourselves and done this, and I just think, really, it's a red flag.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:28 It's just a warning sign, isn't it? Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:29 It's, yeah. And if you're doing it-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:31 It's like, "My knee hurts." Be like, "Oh, right."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:32 "Okay, so there's something wrong with it."

Chris Williamson 20:32 "What, what have you been doing with your knee? Yeah."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:35 Yeah. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:35 There's no- yeah. You to- you are, you are totally right, like, people should be allowed to enjoy themselves on a weekend. But if that enjoyment is medication, or if that enjoyment on a weekend is done to, um-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:47 Excess.

Chris Williamson 20:47 Y- well, if it, if it's done in an effort to be like an anesthetic for what's going on in the week.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:53 Yeah. So, like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 20:53 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 20:54 ... there's one thing, like, going out on a Friday with your mates 'cause you love going out on a Friday with your mates, and actually, like, you really like your life or otherwise, versus "I really need a drink because it's Friday."

Chris Williamson 21:04 Because my boss is a cunt, or-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:05 ... because I have to wear a suit every day.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:07 Or I have to get up and go to work at this time, or do work which isn't creative, or all other things that you gave me 600 or £550 back for.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:14 Yeah. Yeah, well, now I'm winning. Um, but yeah, so anything to try and, like, avoid the Monday to Friday reality.

Chris Williamson 21:23 Hmm. So that's-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:24 Um-

Chris Williamson 21:24 ... that's, that's a warning sign. What else?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:27 I think just not, like... It's hard because I think it's really easy when... We, we both had, like, a something to go and do.

Chris Williamson 21:37 Find something you're passionate about.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:38 So I think part of the, part of the reason why I was so, like, anti it was I kne- I was very aware of an alternative, of like how interested I was in that-

Chris Williamson 21:46 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:47 ... and, like, the possibility of where it might go.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 21:49 That's interesting.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 21:50 So-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 21:50 Because if that wasn't there, there'd be one of two things would happen. Either you would feel like you'd lost your mojo and be like turning up for work, and you're like, "This is meant to be my ultimate purpose in life, and I really don't feel like it matches-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 22:03 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 22:03 ... with my, with, with some vague sense of my inner purpose." Or you invest all of that desire for purpose into something like, uh, vicarious enjoyment of something else. So, like, going gr- like, and again, ugh, I wa- I was gonna say, like, like looking-

Chris Williamson 22:22 Just say, don't caviat it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 22:22 (laughs) Like, investing it all into, um, a dog, or a football team, or something that, like, it becomes the surrogate for all of your, um, meaning in your life. And that-

Chris Williamson 22:35 Unactualized passion.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 22:36 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 22:37 I think some... 'Cause I, I've often wondered if-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 22:39 Your child.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 22:39 ... if Propain didn't exist, would I have just, like, learnt to love accounting? Like, maybe I would. I think that... I'm convinced that that's what some people do.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 22:50 I think you could ha- i- if, if Propain didn't exist and you were on the track that you were in, I think you would've gone into, uh, an adjacent field that still allowed you to leverage your-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:02 Express other things.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:03 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:04 'Cause I think the, in the sober gen-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:05 You'd probably end up working for, like, a, a, a, a social media marketing-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:08 Yeah, pr- probably.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:09 ... um, startup or something.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:10 Yeah, doing, still just doing spreadsheets.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:11 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:13 Da- Dan Gibson has a really... He just sees the world as like everyone's just doing spreadsheets. Like, it doesn't matter what they're doing.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:20 It's true.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:21 It's all just spreadsheets. Like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:23 Every graduate is keen in Excel.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:24 We, we run a fitness business. It's just spreadsheets.

Chris Williamson 23:26 Mostly on spreadsheets.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:27 You run club promo.

Chris Williamson 23:28 Let me tell you, Dan, my business has got nothing to do with spreadsheets.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 23:31 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:31 I've seen your spreadsheets.

Chris Williamson 23:33 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:33 It's just that you don't do much with them.

Chris Williamson 23:35 Yeah. No, that's true.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:36 Um, one thing that I can think, again, another warning flag potentially for someone who's thinking about their career is how hard is it to get yourself out of bed in the morning when you've got work?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:46 Like, if you really, really have to fucking force yourself out of bed and you're two coffees deep by the time that you get into the office, and you're ju- it just doesn't light a fire.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 23:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:55 Uh, we did an episode, um, for what the name of this podcast was before it was called Modern Wisdom that has never been aired, um, on purpose and meaning. It took two hours. But one thing that came out of that, that I don't forget is the best synopsis of what is purpose in life is a reason to get out of bed in the morning.... it's like the-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 24:17 It's a good metric.

Chris Williamson 24:17 ... the coolest way, just the roughest hewn way to work out what purpose is. "Oh, I'm getting out of bed in the morning for something."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 24:25 I remember Becka saying, um, after I'd quit and was doing this, she... Like, I was just whistling one morning. Like, I was, like, drinking my coffee, like, getting ready, putting my own clothes on, um, whistling.

Chris Williamson 24:39 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 24:39 And she was like, she, like, stopped and loo- and looked at me, and like, "Are you being... Like, are you taking the piss?"

Chris Williamson 24:43 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 24:43 And I'm going, "What do you mean?" 'Cause, like, probably building up to that, like, every morning was like... In fact, I think I even used to sing-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 24:49 That's really nice.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 24:50 ... a song which was, "I don't want to go to work. I don't want to go to work." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:54 (laughs) Oh, God. If you are singing a song which is called-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 24:58 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:58 ... "I Don't Want to Go To Work," I think that that's a good indication.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:02 But I... Yeah. So-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:03 That's so lovely. Becau- 'cause it, the, the fact that the question was even like, "Are you taking the piss?" means-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:07 It was so unusual.

Chris Williamson 25:08 Yeah. Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:08 ... that you were, like, so-

Chris Williamson 25:10 Yeah. So it stops-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:10 ... sarcastic about your life (laughs) .

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:11 It stops becoming work. But... Oh, I'm s- I'm moving on too quickly.

Chris Williamson 25:15 Do you not think that-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:16 But-

Chris Williamson 25:16 Do you not think the reason that you got asked about that is that whistling is so-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:21 Not unique.

Chris Williamson 25:21 ... caricaturistically hi-ho? Hi-ho, it's off to work we go.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:26 Like, it's just... It's (laughs) almost as if you're like, "Oh, what? What, are you going to have to go and work for your boss?"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:30 "Put your suit on, peasant. I'm just gonna lie here with my cock out."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:36 Hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:39 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:39 I pay £200 a month to have the... (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:44 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:44 To have the privilege.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:45 Yeah, you've got no idea how much it costs me to get to this position-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:48 (laughs) To have an arse.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:49 ... to be able to whistle in the morning.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:49 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:50 Um,

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 25:51 but yeah, so escapist behavior, um, not wanting to get out of bed in the morning. That's-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 25:56 A sense of mojo lost, vicarious enjoyment of putting your meaning into something.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 26:00 And the stuff I said before as well, like, you, you just don't like it. Like, you don't feel excited. You don't feel... Um, 'cause there, there will be people who work (laughs) a 9:00 to 5:00 job, I assume, who love it, who feel like they're valued, who feel like they add a lot, who feel like they're really good at it-

Chris Williamson 26:18 So this is my next-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 26:18 ... and have a lot of independence.

Chris Williamson 26:20 This is my next question, which is you can be unhappy in your job, and many people are. I think it... The statistic is that, uh, 85% of people in the US are either...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 26:31 Neutral or-

Chris Williamson 26:32 ... neutral or actively, uh, dissatisfied.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 26:35 Mm.

Chris Williamson 26:36 Um, uh, is actively unengaged as opposed to, uh, actively engaged. 15% of people in the US, that's it. So, the only-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 26:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:45 ... uh, the, the option for you is not only to go work for yourself though.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 26:49 Absolutely, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:50 You can move to another, mm, bureaucratic organization. You can move to a startup. You can move to other things. So, the next question is, okay, we've worked out that someone... If you're not unhappy in your job, then, like, fantastic. Listen and enjoy the remainder of these episodes. Use them to supplement your understanding of the business world, but you don't need to think about how they're going to apply to what you're doing.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 27:12 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:12 Stick at what you do, and become better and move up within that organization. Whereas, next little root down the thought tree is, "I'm unhappy. Should I work for myself, or should I move to another company and work for someone else?" How do we-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 27:27 So-

Chris Williamson 27:27 ... how do we work that out?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 27:28 On that note, there's a very... So, you... This, this thought experiment you did where you take away certain-

Chris Williamson 27:33 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 27:34 ... things. You know Juju Mufu?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 27:37 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 27:37 The, the guy, the, like, now very famous and, and rich acro- uh, acrobat. He initially set out... Set up his life in the way that you described to start with, which was that he had a job that was like 10:00 till 4:00, and he was, and he was like bookkeeping or, like, admin stuff that was quite cognitively easy. It allowed him a two-hour lunch break, flexible time, and he set it up so that he was able to do as much, like, dancing around in the grass as possible, and training, and just enjoying his life, and didn't care about, like, um, up... What was it called? Upward-

Chris Williamson 28:12 Mobility.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 28:12 ... upward mobility or anything like that. He was just, like, happy to just turn up, do the job, and, and set up his life so that his job was low stress and low cognitive load. Incidentally, he ended up (laughs) becoming very-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 28:25 Doing really well.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 28:25 Yeah, um-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 28:26 So if that... Uh, the people that I come into contact with who love their job usually aren't doing it because of the salary. And I think a lot of the people that I've spoken to were like, people who are, like, in one of our programs who are leaving their job. It's they, they started it because of, like, the gross annual salary. So I think certainly the world I was in, like, there's a lot of talk about, you know, people are leaving their accountancy firm to go into industry, and all people talk about is the annual gross number.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 28:56 Because at the end of the day, it's just

Chris Williamson 28:57 But you're not taking home because it's getting chipped into, like, a motherfucker.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 29:01 Not only are you not taking home, but like, no one ever talks about the hourly net pay, which really is all...'cause you don't get hours back, but money renews monthly. So every month, someone puts money into your bank and says, "I'd like all these hours, please." But no one thinks about that. They think, like, "But it's 55 grand instead of 50."

Chris Williamson 29:18 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 29:18 So-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 29:18 Mm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 29:19 ... the... What was the point off the back of that?

Chris Williamson 29:22 Juju Mufu working in a

Chris Williamson 29:24 job that allowed him-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 29:24 Oh yeah. So like d... So you're in this position. You don't like your job. What do you do? I would say, "Do you have anything in your job now that you are much better than your peers at?" So I think a lot of people have, like, a skill that they might be, like, outstanding at, for example, that's a specific skill. And you think, "Well, could I go and just do that somewhere else?" For example. It may be not chase the number, but instead just chase the interest.

Chris Williamson 29:50 Mm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 29:50 And this is... I mentioned this in the last podcast about what Alan Watts speaks about of, like, if you are genuinely really good at something, firstly, you'll enjoy doing it because you'll feel competent.

Chris Williamson 30:02 Mm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:02 You'll feel like you're adding value. And if you're very good at it, chances are you'll be able to command a good salary or a good fee, whatever. So that may then manifest in a business, or you may need... That skill may be required in another business. So like people who are, like, interested in photography, for example, who might be exceptionally good at that, might go and do that for another business or go do it for themselves or, or whatever.

Chris Williamson 30:24 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:25 But I think the decision to, like, set up your own business has to, has to be a desire to want to do that. I think that ha- if that, if there's not a natural, like, "I really want to do that," then I think it's probably a bad idea.

Chris Williamson 30:38 Is it not probably,

Chris Williamson 30:39 as well, if your particular passion or whatever it is that you have this pull towards doing for a profession-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:46 ... can't be facilitated by somebody else?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:49 So, with me, I couldn't go work for a- I couldn't go work for-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:53 ... another promo company running these events in these clubs because they didn't exist.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:57 Yeah. And we were the same.

Chris Williamson 30:58 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 30:59 Yeah. So, like, I think that probably comes from pursuing an interest rather than a-

Chris Williamson 31:05 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 31:06 ... salary. Um, and if it turns out financially successful, that's kind of a side benefit.

Chris Williamson 31:12 Yeah. On a, a point about the salary thing, my flatmate at university went out of uni and went straight into... So he did it, this was 13 years ago, or 12 years ago, so it would have been before placement years were quite as ubiquitous as they are now. That pretty much everyone that I know either does a gap year where they'll go traveling, or does a placement year in industry or whatever it might be.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 31:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:32 Especially in business-related degrees.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 31:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:34 Um, he, 21 years old, out of university, wet behind the ears, had lived at boarding school throughout all of, like, 13 to 18 as well, so had just been completely insulated for all this time. Well-rounded guy. Went straight out of university straight into the Audi graduate scheme.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 31:51 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:52 Which is 60 grand a year with a free Audi.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 31:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:54 Um, but no one told him 70 hours a week and he'd be traveling all over the Northeast.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 31:59 Yeah. I remember, I, I knew a few people who, it wa- it wasn't Audi, I think it was maybe Tesco did a similar one, but the Audi was the one that everyone spoke about as being like-

Chris Williamson 32:07 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:07 'Cause the salary was good.

Chris Williamson 32:08 The mental salary with the car-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:09 Yeah. See, I, I remember that as well, like-

Chris Williamson 32:10 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:11 ... thinking like, "Ooh, Audi's-"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:12 But people got sent to, like, Bradford for six months with no warning.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:16 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:16 And you're like, "All right, you just meet me there."

Chris Williamson 32:17 You know what the, you know what the, like, um, on-ramping process was for that? You had to spend the first two days as a checkout assistant.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:24 You have to work your way up from the bottom, don't you? It's a smart idea.

Chris Williamson 32:25 Yeah. But you just do it at, like, an unbelievably accelerated rate.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:28 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:29 Um, it's like, it's like you move through someone's career of just 15 years-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:33 ... in the space of, like, two months.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:35 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:35 That's quite clever, actually, isn't it?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:36 It is. It's cool, yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:36 You, you get the full stack, um, experience of like-

Chris Williamson 32:38 We said it on Business Principles 101, you need to understand everything from the ground floor up. So that-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 32:42 From the technician to the manager.

Chris Williamson 32:44 That makes sense. But I mean, so this guy was in OTC, so he was in Officer Training Corps. And he's a hard guy, like, fucking could stick stuff out, was

Narrator 32:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:51 ... heavy and gra- And he was, had, you know, 21 years old with 60 grand a year coming in and Audi A4 parked outside.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 32:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:00 Lasted six months.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 33:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:01 Lasted for as long as his probation was through so that it didn't look like he quit at the first hurdle. (snaps fingers) Gone.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:08 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:09 So, when you, when that sort of thing isn't right for you, it's interesting. One question that comes to mind at the moment, do you think that there is a job out there for everybody to l- like, a job that someone loves out there for everybody?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 33:24 Probably not.

Chris Williamson 33:25 I'd agree.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 33:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:26 I think that there's this, like, you know, you can-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:29 (coughs)

Chris Williamson 33:29 ... you can get paid for your passion and everybody can, can just monetize what they love, man.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 33:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:34 And it's like, I still fucking need my street cleaned. I still fucking need this.

Narrator 33:39 (coughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:39 That's a different question.

Chris Williamson 33:40 Okay.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:40 That's, is there a person for every job versus is there a job for every person? And I think the, the problem is that everyone wants to be-

Narrator 33:49 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:49 ... an Instagram influencer Juice Plus coach.

Chris Williamson 33:52 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:53 (laughs) But, th- maybe not, but th- th- there's v- vast-

Narrator 33:58 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 33:58 ... demand for certain jobs and there's very little... So, like, we know someone who very cleverly... Um, so he's a smart guy, had an option to go into investment banking or corporate jobs and instead said, "I'm going to go into construction because I have this level of interest and drive in something that I know that if I were to apply it to investment banking, I would be in a, in a sea of extreme competition and not get anywhere."

Chris Williamson 34:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 34:28 "Whereas if I enter more of a blue ocean and really pound it in the construction management sector, then-"

Chris Williamson 34:33 Oh, so he saw a weak, weak competition professionally-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 34:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:38 ... in a particular sector. That's clever.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 34:39 So it's really then, like, if you're willing to do a job that is kind of boring or un-sexy. Like, so I know someone else who runs a portaloo business and he's doing really well.

Chris Williamson 34:47 Hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 34:48 Because, like, it's not as sexy, you know, but he doesn't care. Like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 34:51 That's still kinda hunting for the, for the paycheck though, isn't it? Like, that... I suppose it is all just about... So it's kind of the, it's the Mark Manson subtle art of not giving a fuck. It's like, it's what you're willing to tolerate. So, you know, there's a p- part in that book where he talks about, like, the, the person who loves the nine-to-five job is the person who is all right with the shit things about the nine-to-five job. The person who's good as an entrepreneur is the person who's all right with the fact that, like, next month he might-

Chris Williamson 35:18 He might make no money.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 35:19 ... he might make no money. Ne- you know, next month or six months-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:21 Oh.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 35:21 ... he might be out of business.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:22 I like that 'cause there, 'cause there's n- there's no value judgments applied to either one. It's like, what is your tolerance for uncertainty or for-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 35:28 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:29 ... you know, security?

Chris Williamson 35:29 So that's the, that's the next, literally the next question. Like, the, what we're talking about is should I work for myself, choosing the role, the relative benefit versus risk or downsides (laughs) of-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:40 I've just seen the last line. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:43 Aw, no!

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:45 I said to Yusuf that I had a special question for him. Right, he's-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:48 Oh, he's read it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:49 No, no, I'll do it now. I'll do it now.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:50 We'll save him.

Chris Williamson 35:50 I'll do it now.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:51 Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 35:51 So I wanted to ask Yusuf about specific Arabic approaches to business.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 35:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:59 Because Yusuf is mine and Johnny's window into the Arab world. And I just wondered if you have any family members or any, uh, uh, any friends that are Arab-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:12 ... who-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 36:12 Sell batteries?

Chris Williamson 36:13 ... have a particular approach to business, and if you had anything-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:16 I, I mean-

Chris Williamson 36:17 ... signature to do with their style?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:19 To do with Arab business sty- I mean, my, my Arab family still believe that homosexuality is a-... is a, is a (taps table) disease that is spread through advertising on the internet.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 36:30 (laughs) Oh my God.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:31 And so, so like-

Chris Williamson 36:32 Is this the 1660s? (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:35 But, um, Arab ... So you're going to have to elucidate on Arab business principles.

Chris Williamson 36:41 Arab approaches to business.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:42 Arab approaches to b- (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 36:43 I'm sure there was a module at uni where you could study, like ... Because haven't they got different-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:49 Oh, do, do you mean like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 36:50 ... banking rules and stuff?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:51 Yeah. J- So do you mean like the-

Chris Williamson 36:51 No, no. I don't mean ... I mean, I mean-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 36:53 Oh, all right.

Chris Williamson 36:54 ... cultural-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 36:55 Then that's interesting.

Chris Williamson 36:55 ... cultural approaches to-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 36:56 Not, not Islamic finance principles, 'cause that, that is, that is a very ... that's a thing in itself. I w-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 37:00 Oh, right. I see.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:00 I, I wrote a dissertation on that.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 37:02 Oh, right. That's what it was.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:03 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 37:03 Yeah, right. Okay.

Chris Williamson 37:03 No, not that. I mean-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:05 So, so, so n- not the thing that I know loads about.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 37:07 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:07 Just-

Chris Williamson 37:07 No, I me- I mean-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 37:09 The thing that he doesn't know anything about, but you would like him to.

Chris Williamson 37:11 Yes.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 37:12 Got it.

Chris Williamson 37:12 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:13 What-

Chris Williamson 37:13 Like if you, if you made, if you made your brother run a business.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:17 Okay.

Chris Williamson 37:18 Or your sister.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:19 Yeah, that's it. Right. So, there's a ... So my, my brother has done business in Egypt, and they're very much about, like, "Oh, come in, habibi. We will do big deal with you again." Like, making big promises and-

Chris Williamson 37:31 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:32 ... not actually delivering on them, or-

Chris Williamson 37:34 Is that just part and pa- ... What happens when they don't deliver and you go back and you say, "You owe me"?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 37:37 Everyone's just late and kind of ... Th- this is a ... This is Egypt. But also, um, there is more of a sense of ... Like, maybe it's a political climate, but th- there's a s- there's a situation where, like, entrepreneurial characters will f- create jobs for themself out of, um, exploitation. So, like, you'll have people who are employed by malls to open automatic doors for people. So the automatic door's there and they'll go-

Chris Williamson 38:07 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:08 As you're walking past.

Chris Williamson 38:09 You're fucking kidding (laughs) .

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:10 Like, just because they have to fill up their numbers, like, so the, the mall has to, like, set a certain number of employees for their thing.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 38:16 Oh, no. God.

Chris Williamson 38:16 So there's a man who waves at the sensor-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:19 Yeah, so he-

Chris Williamson 38:20 ... for a fee?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:20 For p- well-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 38:21 Are they, they're getting tipped, or-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:21 Well, wa- wants a tip, yeah. But then there are other people-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 38:24 God.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:24 ... who will just create their own so that in the street they might, like ... You'll be parking, and they'll, like, stand behind you and be like, "Yeah. Yeah. Fine. Come on."

Chris Williamson 38:31 Oh, God.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:31 And you'll be like, "I don't need your help. I'm, I'm fine." And, and then basically they're blackmailing you, because if you leave and you don't tip them, they-

Chris Williamson 38:39 K- kick you.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:40 Well, it's a dysfunctional ... All that stuff. It's the same, and I am around these guys all the time, and they're lovely. I just wish that they would go and work behind the bar, toilet attendants in night clubs.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 38:53 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:53 Ah, okay. So s- similar approach.

Chris Williamson 38:55 I just, I think-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 38:56 But you don't get your car keys.

Chris Williamson 38:57 I want

Chris Williamson 38:59 to get my own paper towel. I want to put the soap on my own hands. Like, I don't want to feel guilty every time that I go to the bathroom when I work in clubs, like ...

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:11 If I were doing what they do, I would invest, like, the first week's wages or how- however long it takes, and I would buy an iZettle contactless point-of-pend.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:19 Ah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:20 Because, like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:21 And they say, "How much do you want it?" So-

Chris Williamson 39:22 I'm not sure that all of these guys are running-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:25 Legit.

Chris Williamson 39:26 ... their cash (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:27 It doesn't, it doesn't matter about that. I know what you're saying, but, like, how many people have a couple of quid? How many people have a contactless card, or an, or an iPhone, or-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:35 So this is a controversial-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:35 I just think they'd get more, even if it, even if it's now taxed.

Chris Williamson 39:39 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:40 God forbid.

Chris Williamson 39:40 No, I, look-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:42 I, I'm, I'm not ... Mm. Okay.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:43 Th- th- this is a controversial point though. Like, I've heard-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:46 Oh, I see what you mean.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:47 I've heard someone describing-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:48 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:49 ... um, homeless people as trading in guilt, or trading in-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 39:52 That was in a blog post the other day.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 39:54 Uh, trading in shame. It was a, it was an old coach that I had that said that, and I was like ... It took me a while to kind of get around what he was saying, but I suppo- ... Like, home, homeless people, I don't think they are trading in shame. I think they, they have no choice. But the people in the, um, the tickets-

Chris Williamson 40:09 Toilet attendants, yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 40:10 Yeah. That ... You're right, the social cost of leaving is like, "Well, he did get the paper towel for me, even though I didn't want him to."

Chris Williamson 40:17 Mm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 40:17 It's, it's imposing a service on you. Or like, in America, have you been to New York-

Chris Williamson 40:21 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 40:21 ... where you hear people going, "Yo, you like rap music? You can buy my CD." And you're like, "No, no, I don't ..."

Chris Williamson 40:24 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 40:24 And so it's like ...

Chris Williamson 40:27 So it's ... Homeless people in America do this a lot. I've just come back from America, um, and when, when someone has no other option is when I'm like, "Oh, cool, man. Like, get your hustle on. Like, I'm sweet," as long as it's not stealing.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 40:39 Mm.

Chris Williamson 40:39 As long as it's not illegal. Like, if you can make some cash, then fantastic. But when we were in a soft top car and guys would come up with, like, their dirty rag T-shirt and be like, "Hey, man, you want your car washed?" I'm like, "Mate-"

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 40:54 No.

Chris Williamson 40:54 "... I'm at a fucking red light. How, how washed are you gonna be able to get the car in the next 15 seconds?"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 40:59 With that-

Chris Williamson 41:00 Yeah. With that T-shirt-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:00 No bucket and gloves.

Chris Williamson 41:01 ... that I've just seen you take off?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:02 Oh.

Chris Williamson 41:03 Like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:03 There's an important business principle behind that, isn't there? Which is don't force something on the market when there's no demand for it.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:09 Don't force a shit service on the market that doesn't want it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:10 Yeah. Like, you, you ... It's, it's not for you to decide what the market should, should have and should want.

Chris Williamson 41:15 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:16 It's like you look for the demand and you redirect it to your service because you offer a better option than the alternative.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:22 There was a beggar in Vegas that was just standing there going, "Does anybody have any money for hookers and cocaine?"

Chris Williamson 41:30 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:30 And I ... Like, I've never felt more of a pulling to just go, like ... Because he made me, he made me laugh, and I thought, like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:36 So he's redirected the demand of, like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:38 ... you know, like, the, the balls on that guy to just, like, "This is what I'm gonna do with the money. Can, can I have some money?" And he looked like, from his little collection, looked like he was doing all right.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:45 Have you heard George Carlin address that? Where he's like, when people say, like, oh, uh ... When you see a homeless guy, and they're like, "Oh, I'm not giving him any money. He's just gonna spend it on cigarettes and alcohol." He's like, "Well, that's what I'm gonna spend it on."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:57 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:57 Like (laughs) do you know what I mean?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 41:58 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 41:58 "And what else do you think he's gonna spend it on? Like, he's not gonna go buy some real estate, is he?" So, like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 42:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:02 That was a point that Rory Sutherland

Chris Williamson 42:04 made about the fact that if you give money to people in small amounts, they will buy immediately gratifying things, because in small increments money can only give you small amounts of happiness. And conversely, people think don't give, um, uh, people from low incomes, like, all of their year's allowance of di- like, um, payments in one go, because they're just gonna spunk it all and do whatever. But the-... converse has actually shown to be true.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 42:35 Ah, okay.

Chris Williamson 42:35 That if you give someone £100 every week-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 42:39 The, the-

Chris Williamson 42:39 ... that they'll just keep on buying fags. But if you give someone £5200, they'll actually think, "Oh my God, I've got £5200. Look at all of the things I can do with this £5200."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 42:49 That's so interesting.

Narrator 42:49 I should save some. I should-

Chris Williamson 42:51 Yeah.

Narrator 42:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:51 "I can invest some, I can buy... Oh, I should buy a bike and then I can get to work and then I can have-"

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 42:56 Don't want to spend it all on fags.

Narrator 42:56 Yes.

Chris Williamson 42:57 Yeah. As opposed to-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 42:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:57 ... what can you do with a hundred quid a week? Like, get yourself pissed and have a, have a tab.

Narrator 43:03 Loads of wine gums. So-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:04 Wine gums. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:05 Is that what you do?

Narrator 43:05 And fudge. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:07 Um, so, uh, Arabic approaches to business. We've got the fact that they're a bit like forthcoming and everyone kind of, uh, plays the big man. Anything else? Any other sort of signature?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:22 Playing the big man, overpromising, underdelivering.

Chris Williamson 43:25 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:26 Um, it's very macho, kind of not wanting to lose face and being very com- like, a quite chest beaty, um-

Chris Williamson 43:32 Does everyone, does everyone wear shirts that are open down to the sternum?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:36 I mean, I'm, I'm massively generalizing, but like (people laughing)

Chris Williamson 43:38 That's the point. That's what we're trying to do here.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:40 Yeah, yeah, um-

Narrator 43:41 I imagine very hard negotiations, shouting.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:44 Uh, very passionate. But, but then again, like-

Chris Williamson 43:46 Dax wax and grill cream.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:48 But like, you, y- but then again, like, you know, all our countries are countries that operate functionally and have a full spectrum of-

Narrator 43:54 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 43:55 ... business people. So, so there are, there are very, you know, sensible, quiet business people that work for kind of corporate balance it-

Chris Williamson 44:01 Look, what we want to hear about are the funny ones.

Narrator 44:02 Chris wants you to pretend that there's some good stories-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 44:05 That they're all just, like, Cuban drug dealers that are just like... (laughs)

Narrator 44:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:07 Yes.

Narrator 44:07 'Cause that's what they're like, aren't they?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 44:11 That's what they-

Narrator 44:11 Aren't they?

Chris Williamson 44:11 Aren't they? Totally.

Narrator 44:11 That's what we thought.

Chris Williamson 44:12 Thank you.

Narrator 44:12 Right. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 44:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:12 Right, getting back to whether or not we should work for ourselves. Um, so relative, uh, benefit versus risk. Um, we just touched on it there, I think. Personal preference and actual approach to risk is a big part of this. Like, can you deal with potentially going for two months or three months without earning any money?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 44:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:34 That's both a financial question and a psychological question.

Narrator 44:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:38 Like, are you able to take the concern of, "Fuck, I might make no money this month-"

Narrator 44:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:45 "... and then I might not make any money next month, despite having done 40 hours a week?"

Narrator 44:49 And be, be all right with it.

Chris Williamson 44:50 Yeah.

Narrator 44:51 Yeah. Um-

Chris Williamson 44:51 That's why I could never be a trader. Can't be a trader.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 44:54 Yeah. Oh-

Chris Williamson 44:54 Every time I try and trade-

Narrator 44:56 Live by the numbers.

Chris Williamson 44:56 Every time that I try and trade, can't do it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 44:58 So, so this is a, like, yeah, a case of, what's your threshold? Because trade, even full-time traders say, "Don't trade for income. Trade for wealth creation, wealth, like, growth of capital, but have a separate income." 'Cause if you're reliant on your monthly paycheck, it's dependent on your profits from trading day-to-day, and you're watching that, that horribly stressful-

Narrator 45:20 The red, the red candlestick.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:21 Ugh.

Narrator 45:22 It's the same reason why-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:24 Disgusting.

Narrator 45:24 ... surgeons aren't allowed to operate on family members. Is that ri- is that true?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:28 I, I imagine so, yeah. Like-

Narrator 45:29 'Cause you just can't see the, you can't see the wood for the trees, can you?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:32 (sighs)

Narrator 45:32 You're just panicking. So, like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:33 Yeah.

Narrator 45:34 ... you buy or sell or do something stupid.

Chris Williamson 45:37 If I was a full-time trader, my anus-

Narrator 45:40 Long Nike, Adidas.

Chris Williamson 45:42 My anus would be-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:43 (laughs) Bitcoin.

Chris Williamson 45:43 ... constantly-

Narrator 45:44 BlackBerry.

Chris Williamson 45:45 ... pulsating.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:45 Ubisoft.

Narrator 45:46 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:48 The boys, the boys are laughing.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:50 (laughs)

Narrator 45:50 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:50 Because the couple of forays I have made into trading have been-

Narrator 45:55 Things you like. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:55 ... bro trading.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:56 (laughs)

Narrator 45:57 Hey, Chris, you know some things that I like.

Chris Williamson 45:58 I did do really well.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 45:59 He did really, really well.

Narrator 46:00 I liked the c-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:01 In typical Chris fashion.

Narrator 46:02 I liked the trailer for the new Call of Duty f- uh, game, so I bought some Activision and then I-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:07 So that's a really smart play and I bet it worked out really well.

Narrator 46:10 And it went up. (hand slap)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:11 There you go. Like all these people looking at like GDP forecasts and you just like, "Well, Call of Duty comes out in a month, so all these traders are gonna miss that." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:20 Anton, come and talk to him here.

Narrator 46:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:24 Uh...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:24 Get Anton on.

Chris Williamson 46:25 Yeah, what else? What, what are some of the other things that people need to consider? So we're t- we're talking about a sideways move from your current job,

Chris Williamson 46:32 which you hate into potentially another job, or then perhaps working for yourself.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:39 So-

Chris Williamson 46:40 'Cause even, sorry to interject. Even if you have a passion that you like and you can monetize and do all the rest of it-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:46 ... if psychologically your profile doesn't allow you to not, uh, to have self-directed work and not have a boss who's laying out your structure for you-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 46:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:57 ... it's gonna be difficult. Maybe you could get a PA who could s- try and structure your week perhaps, or something like that.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:03 Or like that, that guy who paid a PA, paid someone to slap him every time he went off task. Have you heard about this?

Narrator 47:09 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:09 No. Is that not the ultimate Pomodoro discipliner?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:12 Yeah. I, I, I thought-

Chris Williamson 47:13 No? No?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:13 ... I thought one of you sent this article to me. It was a guy paid someone to just sit in a cafe and watch him work and slap him whenever he, like, changed tab or changed app or anything. And he said he didn't get slapped once.

Narrator 47:22 I bet that's worth every penny.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:24 Yeah, he, he... That's what he said.

Chris Williamson 47:25 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:25 He was like, "The most productive." (laughs)

Narrator 47:26 So he only paid, he paid per slap or did he pay per hour?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:29 Per hour.

Narrator 47:29 That's like playing for clicks or impressions, isn't it?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:31 Yes. (laughs)

Narrator 47:33 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:33 However, I think-

Chris Williamson 47:34 Bastard.

Narrator 47:34 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:34 ... that's, what you said there about the sideways move is really interest- a really interesting point because the first decision is, should I work for myself or should I not? Can I tolerate the uncertainty of income? And then secondly, like, there is probably a lot of benefit or a lot of advantage to working for like a small startup of like five people or 10 people.

Chris Williamson 47:51 George is doing that.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:52 Yeah. So, G- George is doing that. You're exposing yourself to a huge potential upside-

Chris Williamson 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 47:56 ... um, with like maybe even a... if you can get like a share in the company or whatever.

Chris Williamson 48:00 George did that.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:01 But also, um-

Narrator 48:03 Talking about George.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:03 The sideways move, like if you're gonna... So like we were saying with Johnny, like going from accounting to something that you can still leverage those skills but in a different... At least go into the right sector, like go into something that you-

Chris Williamson 48:15 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:15 ... slightly more aligned with what you want to do.

Chris Williamson 48:16 Was there a moment when you were like, "Right, this is it. I'm out of here." Uh, apart from obviously... Th- at that moment was technically when you sent the, when you sent the message that said, "I'm leaving."

Narrator 48:29 And so you don't send a message, you go into an A to Z menu.

Chris Williamson 48:31 (laughs)

Narrator 48:31 Go to R, click resign, fill the form in, then press yes.

Chris Williamson 48:34 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:35 Whoa.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 48:36 You know when you just feel like they're going, "No, no, no, please don't go. Please don't go."

Chris Williamson 48:40 Mm-hmm. Was there a this decision has permanent consequences?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 48:43 It felt very final.

Chris Williamson 48:44 Was there a consolation funnel? No, there wasn't actually.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:47 Really?

Chris Williamson 48:47 There's nothing there. No objection handling? (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 48:50 No. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:50 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:50 I suppose by that point.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 48:51 Was it- Was it too expensive?

Chris Williamson 48:53 Was it, "Are you sure?" And then the Are You Sure button was in the opposite color-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 48:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:58 ... to the one that you think it is?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 49:00 It's green, green, green, green. "Are you sure you want to resign?" "No." "Oh, God!"

Chris Williamson 49:04 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 49:05 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 49:06 (laughs) Dark patterns. Um, I remember filling out the form. Becca was in the shower and I was like, "I bet it... Oh, fucking hell." I pressed, like hovering over resign. I was like, she goes, "Am I definitely going to do this?" She was like, "Yeah. Well." I'm like-

Chris Williamson 49:20 Thanks, Becca. (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 49:21 Argh. And then you're like, this is the mo- the immediate moment of like, "What have I done?" And then you're like, "Oh, actually this is exciting."

Chris Williamson 49:27 Started whistling.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 49:28 But it was... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:29 Immediately.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 49:30 The, I tri- before I left, I tried to do something within, uh, the firm that was, like, a bit more in line with what I found interesting. So, it was like they were looking at bringing in y- loads of new, um, like, AI and smart technology and stuff. And they were looking for a team of people to, like, front that. And I, I got offered the role to do it, to be on that team. I had to go down London and, like, you get to see the Canary Wharf office. And it is, like, super, like, you're like, "Fucking hell, this is awesome."

Chris Williamson 49:58 It's cool. Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 49:59 Um, got, got offered that, and then told my, like, line manager this is what I'm going to do. And she was like, "Oh, yeah. Cool. But, like, you're doing it on top of your audit work." And I'm like, "Fine."

Chris Williamson 50:10 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 50:10 So, I literally thought at that moment, like, "Well, I'm quitting."

Chris Williamson 50:13 Done.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 50:13 Wow.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 50:13 Didn't say it to her, but, and then she, I then spoke to her on the phone and I said, like, "F-"

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 50:18 Would they be able to enforce that? Like, if, if you just said, "No, like, they want me." I, I can even ...

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 50:22 No, because it's all under the same.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 50:23 Oh.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 50:24 There is, there is a call that they do, um, where they say like, "What are you going to do? Like, we can talk about matching salary and all this other stuff." She's like, you know, "Who, where are you going to work?" It's like, "I'm actually, I'm going to..."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 50:36 Going home to sit in my pajamas.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 50:38 "I'm gonna start and, and try and grow an online fitness business." And she was just like, "All right. Well, I can't, I can't compete with that." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:47 Yeah. Uh, what was yours, Yusuf?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 50:48 Very, very similar. Um, it was, like, send the, send the boss a note. So, it was throughout the year having to keep it completely under wraps that I'm applying to med school because, um, it would obviously it would be the end of the job, 'cause you're on like a training program where they're investing a lot in you. Um, even flatmates didn't know. Family didn't really know. I think Johnny knew towards the end.

Chris Williamson 51:10 Fuck me. So you'd gone like full-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 51:12 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 51:12 So it was like-

Chris Williamson 51:12 ... Egyptian Secret Service.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 51:13 Black Ops, yeah. Black Ops bodybuilding project.

Chris Williamson 51:15 Oh, stealth mode.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 51:15 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 51:15 And, like, preparing for this entrance exam which was, like, every day after work, four hours, weekends just all, all waking time just pounding it through the whole, whole time. Um, and then when I passed it, I was like, "Right, I've got, like, three weeks to, to give in my notice and then to get set up." So, I sent the boss an email as soon as I got the result. "Can I have a chat with you on Monday?" Met up on Monday, we sat down in the little room and she was like, (tongue clicks) "So you're quitting, ja?" Like, joking. And I was like, "Yeah."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 51:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:48 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 51:51 And she was like, (imitates foreign accent) "Oh, you're, you're not, not kidding. Okay. Uh, what are you, what are you going to do?" I was like, "Um, I'm gonna go study medicine." And she was like, "Oh, thank God. I thought you were going to say you were going to work for Goldman. Okay."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 52:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:08 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:08 "Well, I can't compete with this, so, uh, I, good luck. But you must specialize."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 52:13 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:13 "Okay? Don't be GP." And I was like-

Chris Williamson 52:16 You're a GP.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:17 Yeah. (laughs) Hello, I'm a GP.

Chris Williamson 52:20 Was there a moment when you knew that you wanted to not do BlackRock and to go and do, uh-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:25 Quite early on in BlackRock.

Chris Williamson 52:27 Okay.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:28 Because s- probably some of the-

Chris Williamson 52:29 I'm just trying to find that-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:30 ... the moment of return.

Chris Williamson 52:31 ... identifier. Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:32 Yeah. So, first of all it's like they, you go to New York. You see the intense passion that everyone has for the job. Like, they send you for a month in New York and you have to do, like, a bunch of, um, induction stuff. And you see people there who are just all, like, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, super, like, masters in various financial sciences and really just so passionate about this stuff.

Chris Williamson 52:53 Just fucking love it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 52:54 They, they absolutely get such a stiffy over it. And, like, people, like, they'll have high, high-powered execs from different, uh, parts of the company coming in and they're, they're like bursting for these questions. "Oh, what do you think about, like, um, potassium exports in Kazakhstan?" You know? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:11 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 53:11 And they're like y- and you're like, "Oh, man." Like-

Chris Williamson 53:12 You're like, "Mate, do you think I'm a fucking prick?" (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 53:14 (laughs) "Do you think I'm a fucking prick?" And then you, you're chatting to them o- you know, over breakfast. You're like, "Oh, this is a nice breakfast." And they're like, "Yeah, so, uh, what do you think about, uh, fixed income in Europe? I'm, I'm really interested in bond pricing."

Chris Williamson 53:28 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 53:29 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 53:29 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 53:29 And, and so you just think, like, "Ugh, you can't maintain this." And then once you get back, you look at the, the progression, the people who are 10 years ahead of you and you think, "I don't want..." Like th- this is the, the direction that you set on. You don't want to be that person or you don't want to, like, nothing about this whole path is attractive.

Chris Williamson 53:45 Wait. You, you didn't want to be that person right

Chris Williamson 53:48 then?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 53:48 Yeah. So-

Chris Williamson 53:49 So, 10 years of that person?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 53:51 As if it gets better, but it doesn't. Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 53:53 'Cause I, I think, like, uh, I, I, I remember thinking, like, "What is the best case scenario? If I stay here and everything goes perfectly-

Chris Williamson 54:00 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:01 ... what will be happening?" And, like, I'll be round that corner.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:03 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:04 Much older than I am now, having been here for ages. I'll still be looking at a very similar laptop, but just looking at slightly different spreadsheets and have a lot more-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:12 You've only got one screen as well. I've got-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:13 I've got one screen, yeah. Or they have... Sometimes they give them a, a, like, VGA to VGA.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:17 Oh, cool.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:17 Or it'll be HDMI now.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:19 (sighs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:20 Um, but, like, a lot more responsibility. Mo- a lot more money, but, like, same building, longer hours, more... Like, your life's exactly the same.

Chris Williamson 54:27 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:28 Just when, in the time that you have when you get home before you go to bed, like, if you want, you can buy, like, really posh things online.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:34 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:34 And then at the weekend-

Chris Williamson 54:35 Like seltzer water.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:36 Like seltzer, like loads of it. And then, like, you can go on nice holidays. So, in the, in, like, the 25 days a week that they give you.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:42 A year?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:44 Sorry, yeah. (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:45 (laughs) I wish.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:45 That would be mint. 25 days a year that you can spend ou- out of the work. You can go somewhere that costs you more money. Live in a bigger house or something.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:53 So I spent all of my, like, holiday time, like, standing in surgery, like shadowing surgery-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 54:58 Oh, God.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 54:58 ...it was like a pre, pre-application thing. They're, "Oh, did you have a nice holiday?" You're like, "Yeah, watched loads of, um, appendectomies and kid-"

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:06 Kidneys, yeah, and kidneys.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:08 But I think if the best case scenario isn't like, wow, then, like, what's the point?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:13 Yeah, definitely.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:14 Like, you might as well, so I, I feel like I'm just gonna position myself in something where I'm like, "If that really works out, that'll be fucking class." And then-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:20 That's the George McGill approach, isn't it? Like, what, what decision would produce the most luck?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:24 (laughs) Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:24 And just going with that is such a great metric.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:26 Well, and like, y- you, in a job, you have someone decides your upside for you, and your upside is on a traject- trajectory. You can't really accelerate that. You can't do a year faster.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:38 How fast is the trajectory?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:39 Like, it's three years to qualifying, and then it's, like, normally two years and you make manager, then it's a certain amount of time as manager-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:45 But-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:45 ...then you make... Obv- obviously, yeah. And most people leave. That's their business model. But, like-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 55:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:49 It's so, it's so weird, isn't it? Like, that

Chris Williamson 55:53 your progression, because there's so many people creaming off the top-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 55:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 55:57 ... and because progression is based in a lot of bureaucratic organizations based on seniority, not on capability.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:03 It's based on time served a lot of the time. 'Cause otherwise, like, you would employ grads, and then the smartest grad you would just take him up here and give him the big, like, if he's legitimately smarter than all the management, then, like, why would you not promote him? But he's gotta have the time-

Chris Williamson 56:17 What, experience?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:18 Well, well, yeah, but there's, there are points at which, like, e- even, e- experience is outpaced by intelligence.

Chris Williamson 56:24 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:24 But the, this idea that, like, you can't really accelerate that, so you're gonna be in there for that amount of time anyway.

Chris Williamson 56:31 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:32 If you don't really like that, then...

Chris Williamson 56:34 I don't know. I think it's a lot to do with the way that people are wired and-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:37 Yeah, definitely.

Chris Williamson 56:37 I hope that people aren't getting, like, triggered by... Well, like, you can be, but...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 56:41 This is just our experience though. It's hard to tell.

Chris Williamson 56:42 It's the way that, um, it's the way that, and it's the fact that all three of us are wired the same way, but I think-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:46 Mm-hmm

Chris Williamson 56:46 ... a lot more people are than, than think, uh, that they are.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:50 I certainly, like a lot of my friends working in accountancy jobs and, you know, seem to, at least they don't say to me-

Chris Williamson 56:55 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:56 ... like, "I hate it but I'm, I'm suppressing my feelings." Like, they seem to like it.

Chris Williamson 56:59 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 56:59 And I, we disagree on it. But you know, that's a preference.

Chris Williamson 57:03 That's a preference, yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 57:03 Like-

Chris Williamson 57:04 I think-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 57:05 It's interesting that I feel like I get a lot of judgment about what I'm doing. I judge them, I suppose. But like, as long as they enjoy it-

Chris Williamson 57:12 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 57:13 ... I think it's great.

Chris Williamson 57:13 So I think maybe going back to the Daniel Sloss jigsaw analogy, like different people value different things, right?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 57:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:19 Like those people, i- it was totally like you said about Jujimufu, that he had a job which facilitated him to do the things he cared about, which happened to be his side projects of, um, training and doing acrobatics and other things like that. Other people might f- really fucking love their family. Their family might be a huge part of their thing.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 57:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:39 And as long as they've got the money that they need to be able to take life on and then spend time, 'cause they've got a massive family, or they really love their brothers and sisters, or mom and dad, or their boyfriend or girlfriend, or future wife or whatever. Sick.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 57:52 Whereas like-

Chris Williamson 57:52 That's, that's fantastic.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 57:53 ... we are three slightly autistic, um, young men with n- with no family. And so what our preferences are-

Chris Williamson 58:01 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 58:01 ... doesn't reflect a lot of people.

Chris Williamson 58:01 Well, and you two, it's, uh, weirdly enough, we fill the void. I say this all the time, like, Darren, my business partner, has a family. He has two dogs and a wife, and now two beautiful baby boys. I also have a family, mine are just businesses and projects on the side.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 58:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:19 I have a podcast and I do my modeling and I do traveling and I do, you know, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, Roll It Out.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 58:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:26 I do property and blah, blah. Like, that's, that is my surrogate family because I think that a lot of people have this pent up, um, forward momentum that they need to invest into something, and they might invest it into dog, football team-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 58:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:43 ... some sort of passion. They might invest it into family, um, like, growth of the home unit, whatever it might be. Or they might invest it into business. And it's weird that there is, you're right, there's this weird sort of value judgment about, well, the Gary V Hustle and Grind says that you've, you know, if you're not making a business, then it's fucking bullshit, mate, and you're just working for the man.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 59:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:06 It's like, well, no, like if you value the stuff that's outside of working for the man, crack on-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 59:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:11 ... 'cause the man's gonna facilitate you. 'Cause you can turn up to work, you have to do something catastrophically fucking shit to not get a paycheck at the end of the month.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 59:20 You have to get, you literally have to get fired.

Chris Williamson 59:22 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 59:22 Which is actually a legal process, which is a nightmare. Like, to fire someone is difficult.

Chris Williamson 59:28 Lemon.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 59:29 Lemon difficult.

Chris Williamson 59:30 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 59:31 Um, the, what was I about to say? Oh yeah, I think the, so there's, there's definitely judgments both sides. So like, I think entrepreneurs judge people in jobs 'cause like, like 9 to 5, job's your-

Chris Williamson 59:41 You're working for the man, mate.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 59:42 Yeah, and like, people in jobs judge, judge entrepreneurs 'cause they're like, "Oh, they waste money, they never do anything."

Chris Williamson 59:46 Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 59:47 But I think the, the only time I think it's a shame on both sides is when people are doing something and they're just like shagging their short term everything. Because they are so entranced, entranced by this idea that like, when I earn X-

Chris Williamson 1:00:03 I will Y.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:00:04 ... it'll, it'll all be brilliant. And like, something that's, that happens when you are running your own business is you're exposed to, like, when you, when you're earning salary, like, you get like two grand, two grand, two grand, two grand. Like, yeah, you get a bit of savings and maybe get a bonus.

Chris Williamson 1:00:21 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:00:21 But when you're an entrepreneur, like, you might, uh, you, your revenue will be this.

Chris Williamson 1:00:25 No grand. No grand. (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:00:26 Reven- revenue will be this, but then revenue might be this, and it might be this. So like this month, and you, you, I don't think you know this, may- maybe you do. This is the biggest revenue month we've ever had in Propay.

Chris Williamson 1:00:37 Man, congratulations.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:00:39 Um, well, yeah, but like, I, I don't care. And I thought I would. Like, I remember the entire time-... doing this thinking like, "When we pass X-"

Chris Williamson 1:00:49 Mm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:00:49 "... I'll be so..." But like, um, I live in a reality where you're, it's proven that it just doesn't affect anything. Like, there's a number on a spreadsheet somewhere that's different, and it's passed a mark that you set for yourself arbitrarily.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:04 When you think of your life like that and you think like, "Well, what would be different?" Like, I'd wake up and I'd have a coffee and I, I already buy the coffee.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:10 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:11 Would I buy a nicer coffee? Well, I mean, I, I don't have a coffee at all, but-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:15 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:15 ... (laughs) but like-

Chris Williamson 1:01:16 Because I'm not a nutter. (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:18 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:18 Psychopath.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:19 Um, but then, or you're like, "Oh, I'll put on a pair of shoes," like, would I buy a nicer pair of shoes? Okay, if I did, could I buy them now?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:25 It'd be subtle changes, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:25 Like, you probably could afford all the little upgrades that you want now. Like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:28 Mr. Money Mustache.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:30 Oh, yeah, where he says just, just get the upgrades immediately as soon as-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:33 Or like, he like has, like, a really nice coffee and a really nice piece of chocolate and it costs him like a quid more.

Chris Williamson 1:01:39 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:39 Right.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:39 But his quality of life is like way higher.

Chris Williamson 1:01:41 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:01:41 So then if you, if you, if your income was to double, what would you do?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:01:45 What, what else would you do?

Chris Williamson 1:01:45 Yeah, so this is something that I think about a lot and it's something I've talked about a lot as well. It's a shame that I've not done this at the start of the podcast, but the, uh, relative difference between how materialistic you are and your means to be able to get that end-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:02:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:00 ... is one of the biggest determinants I think in terms of someone's satisfaction.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:02:05 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:02:05 Especially now.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:02:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:06 Like, if you-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:02:07 So if you're very materialistic but you don't have the means, big s- big sadness.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:02:10 Catastrophe.

Chris Williamson 1:02:11 Like, if you, if you've... 'Cause I don't know, I don't know whether you could class it as like a genetic predisposition, but it's certainly something that your family will have instilled in you. If your family, um, always bought nice things, if there was a, an atmosphere of keeping up with the Joneses, if prudence was kind of looked down on or just wasn't something that was drilled in, then you are going to have a, a higher natural level of spending than we do. Like, all of us here are quite scrimpers and savers. Um, and if that's you, you need to get your fucking nose to the grindstone, because you're going to be unhappy. Because there is-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:02:51 If you have a high preference for-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:02:52 For spending.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:02:52 ... stuff.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:02:53 Yeah. If you like nice things, if you always have to have Gucci sliders and you always have to have that sort of stuff, you better hope that you're gonna get a fucking good job.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:02:59 Well, the fact that-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:02:59 Because-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:02:59 ... I walked in this T-shirt and you both were like, "That's not your T-shirt." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:03 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:05 Yep.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:03:05 Says a lot about-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:06 I, I find I spend a lot less on stuff I thought I'd spend money on. So I thought I'd spend money on, like, constantly g- getting new clothes and, like, constantly, like, I thought I would have, like, lapped up the latest laptops and all that sort of stuff. But actually, the stuff I spend, like, disproportionate amounts of money on is like fucking-

Chris Williamson 1:03:24 Training courses.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:25 Course- yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:03:26 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:26 And I'm like, and yet I do have moments where I'm like, "Well, why am I doing this?" And it's not because I can earn more money so I can buy-

Chris Williamson 1:03:32 More courses.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:34 ... Gucci sliders. Yeah, it's, I just, like, find it really interesting and when you just, when you're just, like, in a world where it's just all just really interesting.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:03:40 Well, you always make a return on, on investing in yourself

Chris Williamson 1:03:42 In some ways, yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:43 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:03:43 ... especially business coaching or business, like-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:46 Or any, anything like that, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:47 Unless you buy the 4,000 pounds down to 350 pounds-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:52 ... um-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:53 Oh.

Chris Williamson 1:03:53 What was that one? (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:03:55 Oh, the like, the ultimate bundle.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:56 Terrible.

Chris Williamson 1:03:57 Yeah. Usaid bought, Yusuf bought a bundle.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:03:59 Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 1:03:59 And he just got fully upsold.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:01 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:04:01 Went on a website...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:02 I think 50.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:03 Oh, right.

Chris Williamson 1:04:03 Oh, right. But it was like down to, down to, down to this.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:06 It was like one-nine-nine-nine-seven.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:09 99.8% off or something.

Chris Williamson 1:04:11 Yeah. Um-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:12 For what reason?

Chris Williamson 1:04:13 So yeah, materialism and means to achieve that or to get to that is like a real big thing and I, I'm, I'm very thankful that I don't have that. That I've had the same car now for four and a half years.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:27 I think as long as I've... No.

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 No.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:29 I think as long as I've owned it?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:30 No, you had a Renault.

Chris Williamson 1:04:31 Renault 1.0 Black Bay.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:32 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It is.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:33 And there was an RS, and then after that I had the Audi soft top, and then I've got this

Chris Williamson 1:04:37 Is that it?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:37 But like to the point where I've for- I'd forgotten you had a Renault.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:39 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:40 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:40 So it's been, it's been that time. But in that same time, I've got four houses.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:04:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:43 Like, because for me... And even that's not about wealth creation. It's about I am liberating myself from, uh, industry which is very fickle. And I just feel like I'm-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:04:56 You've barbeled.

Chris Williamson 1:04:57 Yeah. I'm less, less at the mercy of something that's like that. But yeah, the-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:03 Well, what we all do in companies that, like, hockey sticked and, and went mental growth wise would not be or buy Lamborghinis. We'd probably all be like, "Right, like, who can we bring into the team? Like, what can, like, let's get this office 'cause it'd be cool to all be in a-"

Chris Williamson 1:05:17 I might get one Lamborghini.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:18 Maybe, like maybe t- we'll share one.

Chris Williamson 1:05:20 Okay.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:20 But like, do you know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 1:05:22 Yousaf, like you wouldn't get one, would you?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:22 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:23 If you had £50 million would you get a Lamborghini?

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:27 It does interest, tha- that, it does interest me that, like, what is the amount at which-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:30 Oh.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:30 ... that seems reasonable?

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:31 Like what percentage of your asse- of your total net worth would you-

Chris Williamson 1:05:34 Of your wealth, yeah. Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:34 That's a very good question.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:35 One to one at a time, like.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:36 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:36 Um...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:37 Let's do it as the next thought experiment in Business 103.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:39 How much money does Yusuf have to have-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:40 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:42 ... to spend any of it frivolously?

Chris Williamson 1:05:44 Oh.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:44 God, I just had another point. Oh, yeah. So all of us have been in situations, so your, is your training story...

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:51 It's on-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:51 On something.

Chris Williamson 1:05:52 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:05:52 ... Life Fails, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 1:05:53 We've, we've heard it, yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:05:53 So like you were, you were put in a position that again, so like the reason I reference the revenue thing is I just don't think... Unless you like have this big windfall like inheritance or something-

Chris Williamson 1:06:01 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:01 ... people aren't presented with like, n- the X amount of money and then 10 times that su- suddenly. Like, it doesn't really happen in life.

Chris Williamson 1:06:09 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:09 But if, w- we've all been in a situation where something like that's happened-

Chris Williamson 1:06:13 Mm-hmm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:13 ... has it affected your happiness?

Chris Williamson 1:06:16 Hm.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:16 Like, have you, have you suddenly thought like, "Ah."

Chris Williamson 1:06:18 So much happier.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:18 "Life's complete now. I don't need to do anything else."

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:06:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:21 There's a, there's that really well-cited study in America, isn't it? I think it's $75,000 in America or £58,000-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:26 It's the happiness gap.

Chris Williamson 1:06:27 58,000-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:06:28 ... per year is the point at which an increase in salary essentially has no impact on your amount of happiness.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:37 That's mental, that, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 1:06:38 Yeah. 58,000 a month-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:39 You hear that and you think, "Bollocks."

Chris Williamson 1:06:40 "Fuck off, mate."

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:41 D- yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:41 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:06:42 Mm-hmm. That's quite scary 'cause then everyone's-

Chris Williamson 1:06:45 And 50,000-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:06:45 ... pitching for, everyone's like driving towards maximizing that.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:47 Especially people who are already over that, who are still going for more.

Chris Williamson 1:06:50 Obviously.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:51 Even though data suggests-

Chris Williamson 1:06:53 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:06:53 And their past experience, like which is even more-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:55 (laughs)

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:06:55 ... valuable to those people, but-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:57 Yeah.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:06:58 Crazy.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:06:58 So, I suppose if you- if you're in a job, you're thinking about leaving it, and you've experienced a pay rise, and your happiness hasn't increased in proportion to the pay rise, leave.

Chris Williamson 1:07:07 There we go.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:07:08 (laughs)

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:08 Um, any other-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:07:10 Hard to do.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:10 ... any other points? So-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:07:11 Don't, I am not a professional. Do not take my advice-

Chris Williamson 1:07:12 (laughs) Yeah.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:13 ... as serious advice.

Chris Williamson 1:07:13 Yeah. So, you know, like, um, Daniel Sloss has the number of divorces and breakups that Jigsaw has caused in his Twitter bio.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:22 Oh, God.

Chris Williamson 1:07:22 Like, if we start totting up the number of people that have left their jobs to g-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:27 Oh.

Chris Williamson 1:07:27 Do not ring me, I repeat-

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:07:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:07:29 ... do not ring me and tell me that you've left your job because of this. Have a strong and frank discussion with all of your friends, and then message me @chriswillex on all social media.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:39 Or just enroll in Perfect Business, and we'll teach you how to do it.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:07:40 We, we've had a lot of people that have quit their jobs over the last-

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:07:43 Yeah, legit.

Jonny (Propane Fitness) 1:07:43 ... few months because their revenue just completely...

Chris Williamson 1:07:46 It's so ballsy. But there's, so he, the other thing as well to consider, which is a total other element to this, is most jobs, in the same way that Jujimufu had his, most normal jobs that don't take up too much of your time will not prohibit you from starting a business outside.

Yusef (Propane Fitness) 1:08:03 Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So we-

Chris Williamson 1:08:04 Like, why can you not? Because the, inevitably, the first two years, no matter how fucking good your business is, the first year of it, especially if you've never done business before, the first