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Should I Work For Myself? | Business Principles 102 | Modern Wisdom Podcast 106

Jonny & Yusef from PropaneFitness.com join me for another Business Principles episode. Today we're talking about one of the questions we're most commonly asked - should you take the plunge into self employment. Being your own boss sounds fantastic, but what's the reality of your income being completely in your own hands? Expect to learn our favourite mental exercise for working out the true salary of your job, why Jonny & Yusef left high paying graduate jobs to pursue their passions, what sort of personality types are not built for self-employment and whether we believe everyone can find a job they enjoy. This episode is brought to you by https://pso-rite.com - if you're sitting at a desk all day, this product may be a fantastic addition to your routine to reduce psoas tension. Extra Stuff: Check out everything I recommend from books to products and help support the podcast at no extra cost to you by shopping through this link - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Yusef (Propane Fitness)guestJonny (Propane Fitness)guestChris Williamsonhost
Sep 26, 20191h 13mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:04

    Intro

    1. YF

      If you're in a job, you're thinking about leaving it, and you've experienced a pay rise, and your happiness hasn't increased in proportion to the pay rise, leave.

    2. JF

      Or self-medication.

    3. YF

      Yeah.

    4. JF

      When the existential pain starts to bear so much on your shoulders that you're like, "I'm gonna just blast myself on Friday to Sunday."

    5. CW

      I'm just going to ingest things.

    6. YF

      Yeah.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. CW

      In the desperate hope that it's going to make this job feel less shit-

    9. YF

      That, that make this hurt not quite as much.

    10. CW

      People should be allowed to enjoy themselves on a weekend, but if that enjoyment is medication, or if that enjoyment on a weekend is, if it's done in an effort to be like an anesthetic for what's going on in the week.

    11. YF

      People think, they start a job, they're like fresh out of school, fresh out of uni, and they're like, "Oh, it's a bit crap, but it'll probably get better." And then like (laughs) 20 years later, it's no better.

    12. CW

      It's not got better. (laughs)

    13. YF

      The person who loves the nine-to-five job is the person who is all right with the shit things about the nine-to-five job. The person who's good as an entrepreneur is the person who's all right with the fact that like next month-

    14. CW

      You might make no money.

    15. YF

      ... you might, you might make no money. Ne- you know, next month-

    16. CW

      Oh.

    17. YF

      ... in six months, you might be out of business.

    18. CW

      Can you deal with potentially going for two months or three months without earning any money?

  2. 1:04 – 3:59

    Welcome

    1. CW

      Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by Johnny and Yusuf from propanefitness.com. Business Principles 102. 102. Did so good-

    2. YF

      102, geez.

    3. CW

      Did so good on the last one, done gone, gonna do it again.

    4. JF

      Doing another one.

    5. YF

      Gone and do another one.

    6. CW

      Was one of our most popular, uh, new episodes that we've released in a while. Went down super, super well. And this episode is brought to you by so right. Uh, if you haven't seen one of these before, Joe Rogan and David Goggins went on about it for ages on their podcast together, and it shut their website down.

    7. JF

      Wow.

    8. CW

      So there's a business principle for you. Make sure you got enough server space.

    9. JF

      (laughs)

    10. CW

      That if Joe Rogan and David Goggins start talking about your product, doesn't break.

    11. YF

      Be ready.

    12. CW

      Be ready. Um, so it is a psoas manipulation tool. If you sit down at a desk all day, we are talking business principles. If you tu- sit down at a desk all day, you will have a tight psoas. I'm right in saying it's the only muscle which actually connects the trunk to the spine. Is that right? Or one of the primary muscles that does it.

    13. YF

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      Um, so it gets tight when you sit down. That helps to relieve it. We've all got one, and we've been using them pretty regularly. Does help when you've been sat cranking out a big long day in the office and, to relieve things. So all that you need to do, leave us a review on iTunes or wherever you are listening, and I'll pick someone at random.

    15. JF

      Sorry, it's not the only muscle that connects-

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. JF

      ... (laughs) the trunk to the spine. It's the only muscle that crosses the pelvis-

    18. YF

      That connects it to the trunk, yeah.

    19. CW

      Yeah. Thank you very much. There we go. Wow. A little bit-

    20. YF

      The psoas, I think, is the, is a filet mignon on a cow.

    21. JF

      Oh.

    22. CW

      That's interesting.

    23. YF

      I think. I think so.

    24. CW

      So it can eat...

    25. JF

      You'll have a great filet mignon.

    26. CW

      So if I cook you, if I cook you-

    27. JF

      After using the psoas right, then it would be more tender.

    28. CW

      ... tender. Lovely.

    29. YF

      It's not load-bearing in a cow, which is why it's so tender.

    30. JF

      Mm-hmm.

  3. 3:59 – 6:33

    Take a salary

    1. JF

      anyway, like, I, I know that, like, I just need, like, two days, get my drop shipping sorted, gonna set..."

    2. CW

      No.

    3. JF

      And it's like, "Go on."

    4. CW

      Mate, you are eight months away from launch, and you have two weeks of money in the bank.

    5. JF

      No, no. See, because like, you know, "Oh, I, I've got a logo. Uh, my mate's a designer and he's gonna..."

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. JF

      "... he's gonna make my... Look." And you're like, "Oh, no, just wait until your, your reven- your profits start to like eclipse your salary."

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JF

      And then it's like, "Oh, okay."

    10. CW

      There we go.

    11. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      So I think one of the cool, interesting little thought experiments that we've done over the last couple of years, which is a good strategy to do with other people as well. If you hear someone complaining about their job or complaining about their boss or whatever it might be, this is a good strategy to use on them. And we promised that we were going to do it before the last one. So (inhales) what we're going to do is we're going to take a salary. Now, at home you can take your own salary and deduct as is appropriate, but we'll have to... Johnny, I'm going to pretend that you are a person in a normal, s- some normal job. Let's say that your take-home pay per year is 20,000 pounds, okay?

    13. YF

      Gross.

    14. CW

      N-

    15. JF

      Take-home.

    16. CW

      Net.

    17. JF

      'Cause you live in net land.

    18. CW

      Oh, okay.

    19. JF

      (laughs)

    20. YF

      (laughs) Let's say, let's say, let's say 20 grand. So that's about th- sh- 1,200 quid a month, I think.

    21. CW

      Okay.

    22. YF

      Net. Received, I believe.

    23. CW

      Okay. So-

    24. JF

      If it's 20 grand gross-

    25. YF

      Do you, do not believe me?

    26. JF

      ... if it's 20 grand net-

    27. YF

      20 grand gross.

    28. JF

      Oh, 20 grand.

    29. CW

      20 grand gross. And that's like a, maybe a just below a starting salary for a graduate scheme, something like that. Maybe 21, 22.

    30. YF

      Yeah, I think, I think it's pretty much at a starting salary.

  4. 6:33 – 7:41

    Monthly pay

    1. CW

      Across the whole year.

    2. YF

      Oh, across the whole year? I thought this was monthly.

    3. CW

      No. So a grand and a half.

    4. YF

      Oh, no, no. I can't think like that. I can't think like ... Can we do monthly?

    5. JF

      (laughs) £1,200 a year, £100 a month. But then in gross and net-

    6. YF

      Yeah, that's what I mean.

    7. JF

      ... it messes, messes it up.

    8. YF

      I, I, I get 1,200 quid a month, and in exchange for go- for that 1,200 quid a month, I have to go somewhere and do stuff, dress in a certain way, at a certain time.

    9. CW

      Okay.

    10. YF

      So you're saying I have to do all that, but I can go-

    11. JF

      Pajamas.

    12. YF

      ... jogging bottoms and T-shirt.

    13. CW

      Yeah. Yeah. How much are you gonna give me?

    14. YF

      100 quid.

    15. CW

      100 quid a month.

    16. YF

      So I've got 1,100 quid left.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. JF

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      Now you can choose your own start time.

    20. YF

      (sighs)

    21. CW

      And you can choose if you want to have weekends off. You can ... Basically ultimate flexi time.

    22. YF

      Okay.

    23. CW

      Could get up at 6:00 PM at night and do the shift.

    24. YF

      So I've got to do 35 hours a week, but as I please?

    25. CW

      Yes.

    26. YF

      (sighs)

    27. CW

      I can't believe you gave me a hundred quid back per month just so you could wear

    28. NA

      clothes.

    29. YF

      I know. I over ... I overdid that, didn't I?

    30. JF

      (laughs)

  5. 7:41 – 9:17

    Flexing

    1. CW

      He's given us it.

    2. JF

      He's already given back it?

    3. CW

      How much are you, how much, how much are you-

    4. YF

      200 quid.

    5. CW

      Another 200?

    6. YF

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      For you to be able to flex around?

    8. YF

      Well, because now ... Hold on. Is location flexed? Still got to go to the place.

    9. CW

      Still got to go to work.

    10. YF

      100.

    11. CW

      100.

    12. YF

      I would- I should have done 50 for the clothes.

    13. CW

      Come on. Too late. Sorry. So you're at a grand.

    14. YF

      The suits don't fit me.

    15. CW

      You're at a grand a month now.

    16. YF

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. YF

      And I'm naked and-

    19. CW

      Potentially.

    20. YF

      ... coming in whenever I want.

    21. CW

      Yeah. Okay.

    22. YF

      Pretty good situation, Dean, wouldn't you say?

    23. CW

      Pretty good situation.

    24. YF

      For a grand a month.

    25. CW

      Yeah. Not bad.

    26. YF

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      Um, now you don't have to interact with anyone at work that you don't want to.

    28. JF

      (sighs) No, thank you.

    29. CW

      (laughs)

    30. JF

      That's fine.

  6. 9:17 – 10:01

    Freedom of Location

    1. YF

    2. CW

      Okay. Keep-

    3. YF

      All right. Well, I'll just go with his price.

    4. CW

      Come on. So how much are you, how much are you giving me for working from home?

    5. YF

      100 quid.

    6. CW

      Another 100 quid. So 850 we're down to now. Seth, you got any concessions that you can think of here that we would be able-

    7. JF

      Okay.

    8. CW

      ... to tempt him with?

    9. JF

      So we have flexi time.

    10. YF

      How about work that I like?

    11. CW

      We're getting onto that.

    12. YF

      All right, okay.

    13. CW

      'Cause that's the, that's the fucking tip of the spear.

    14. YF

      Oh, I see. That's where it just goes to zero?

    15. CW

      Yeah.

    16. YF

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      We have lo- freedom of location.

    18. CW

      Yep. We have working with people that you like.

    19. JF

      Which didn't get much interest.

    20. CW

      Yeah. No, no, it didn't really, didn't really-

    21. JF

      It didn't take-

    22. YF

      No, no. You didn't say that.

    23. JF

      ... take off.

    24. YF

      You said I don't have to speak to people that I don't like.

    25. CW

      You don't have to work with people you don't li- Well, yeah, that, I mean, on the flip side of that, it's working with people that you do like.

    26. YF

      But those people are there now. There's just also some people there I don't like.

    27. CW

      Right, but they're not there anymore, so that's-

  7. 10:01 – 11:27

    Work Allocation

    1. YF

      Well, they are for me.

    2. CW

      (laughs)

    3. YF

      Oh, no. I paid for that, didn't I? They're gone.

    4. CW

      Yeah, they're gone.

    5. YF

      What did I pay, 50 quid?

    6. CW

      Yeah.

    7. YF

      I'm happy with that. I paid too much for their clothes, Dean.

    8. JF

      Okay.

    9. YF

      Payed too much for their clothes.

    10. JF

      So the, the ... You're allowed to take the worst 20% of tasks that you do-

    11. YF

      Ooh.

    12. JF

      ... that provide you with the 80% of ball ache, and you can outsource that.

    13. YF

      So is that reducing my hours?

    14. JF

      Yeah.

    15. YF

      So I'm-

    16. JF

      Oh, well, no. It would not-

    17. CW

      No, no.

    18. JF

      It would have to. It would have to rise.

    19. CW

      Keep him, keeping his hours the same.

    20. JF

      So, so your-

    21. YF

      I'm not paying for that.

    22. JF

      ... your hour is the same, but your, your, what you would do day-to-day, what fills those hours is the nicer tasks, so-

    23. CW

      You're not paying for it.

    24. YF

      No.

    25. CW

      Okay. How about ... Here's this. You're no longer paid based on your hourly wage, your hourly wage. You're only based on work done. You have an allocation-

    26. YF

      That's more like it.

    27. JF

      (laughs)

    28. CW

      (laughs)

    29. YF

      200 quid.

    30. CW

      650. So you not-

  8. 11:27 – 12:30

    Incentives

    1. CW

      that's why we were said no, he said no, so I've renegotiated.

    2. YF

      'Cause you have people react to incentives. So if your incentive is, "I have some work to do, but I have to say till five o'clock", are you going to work fast or not? Or slow or medium?

    3. JF

      Exactly. You, you are slowed down.

    4. YF

      You'll just pace it out, won't you?

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. YF

      Well, there's no reason to rush, 'cause you've got to do Monday to Friday, you've got to do your nine-to-five.

    7. CW

      Yeah.

    8. YF

      Someone says to you-

    9. JF

      If I finish my work too quickly-

    10. YF

      "Scone, you can go home at midday if you just do it all." What happens to scone?

    11. CW

      Hmm. But the concern is then that you rush so much that your work gets done at a lower quality, isn't it?

    12. YF

      As long as it's at a quality that's enough.

    13. CW

      So we're now at six-

    14. YF

      So at the moment, at the moment, I'm working a morning.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. YF

      I'm naked. In fact, no, I can work whenever I want. I mean, I'll do 4:00 AM-

    17. JF

      (laughs)

    18. YF

      ... till 8:00 AM. I'm gonna do all my work for the week naked in the office before anyone gets in.

    19. JF

      And you don't have to speak to anyone else.

    20. CW

      I mean, you work from home. You're working from home.

    21. YF

      Am I? Have we done that one?

    22. JF

      (laughs)

    23. CW

      Have we said that you work from home?

    24. YF

      When did we do that? Yeah, but I bought, I bought that.

    25. CW

      You paid for it, yeah.

    26. YF

      Wow.

    27. JF

      He bought it.

    28. CW

      Dungum paid for it.

    29. YF

      So I'm getting 600 quid for a couple of hours' work on a Monday morning, naked at home?

    30. CW

      Yep.

  9. 12:30 – 13:00

    How much would it be

    1. YF

      Sounds, (laughs) sounds very like my life.

    2. CW

      So my point is, and we can take this all the way up, I could say how much would it be to exchange the, um, job that you're doing for something which you have full, complete, and c- creative control over?

    3. YF

      (smacks lips)

    4. CW

      How much would it be for me to get you to, um, be able to have your wage grow in line with the value that you create for the business that you are working in?

    5. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      Keep on chugging away. And I've managed-

    7. JF

      You feel like you're adding val- Like, y- you feel satisfaction from what you do

  10. 13:00 – 14:05

    How many concessions you could make

    1. JF

      and (overlapping speech)

    2. CW

      So you can imagine that if you, if you're listening at home, like, think about this in your own head. Think about how many concessions you could make with all of this sort of stuff. I've managed to sit around a dinner table and get someone to pay me to come to his job.

    3. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      Like, hated his job a lot more than you did, and you weren't a massive fan.

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      Um, but was just so keen to get out of the office, get away from the people he didn't like, not have to wear the shit suits, not have to fucking blah, blah, blah, all that sort of s- bollocks.

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      Um, (clicks tongue) he was paying me to go to his job.

    9. JF

      (laughs)

    10. CW

      I mean, like, uh, how much do you need to hate your job-

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      ... to pay someone not to have to do it anymore?

    13. YF

      It, I, I think the, um... So someone messaged me about accountancy after the last episode.

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. YF

      And there's something that he said in the message which resonated with me, and I think this is probably the ca- Anyone who, like, doesn't like their job, we need to go into box A, box B stuff at some point, right?

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. YF

      I think people think they start a job, they're like n- 19, fresh out of, of... How old are you? 21.

    18. CW

      (clears throat)

    19. YF

      Or fresh out of school, fresh out of uni, and they're like, "Oh, it's a bit crap, but it'll probably get better." And then, like, 20 years later, it's

  11. 14:05 – 14:30

    At 21 everything is completely novel

    1. YF

      no better.

    2. CW

      Not got better. (laughs)

    3. YF

      Because of course it isn't gonna get better. Like, uh, uh, (clicks tongue) at 21, everything is completely novel, everything's brand new. It's the first time you've done everything. People are really not expecting very much from you. You get to go home at five o'clock. Like-

    4. JF

      And you've got your health. You've got no commitments.

    5. YF

      (laughs)

    6. JF

      You've got no dependents financially.

    7. YF

      Yeah.

    8. JF

      Usually, your parents are in good health, like-

    9. YF

      Yeah.

    10. JF

      ... you're in a, y- you might be in a relationship, or you might, you know, be...

    11. CW

      The dark specter

  12. 14:30 – 17:28

    The dark specter of immortality

    1. CW

      of mortality hasn't started to hang over you yet.

    2. YF

      Yeah.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. YF

      The sigh. But I suppose, like, you maybe aren't adding much value, it doesn't feel that rewarding at that point, but I definitely felt, like, joined and felt like this, like, "This r- wasn't really what I was expecting." I waited and hoped that it would get better, and it didn't really. And also, s- something else for me was I, I could see, because of the way the job I did worked, I could see people who were like five, six, seven years down the line. And I'm looking at them going like...

    5. JF

      That's, that was the big one for me. Looking at my seniors and saying, "They are miserable-"

    6. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. JF

      "... tired. They look old for their age."

    8. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JF

      "And they're-"

    10. YF

      And they would just moan. They would just moan about it. And I'm like, if they, if they'd all been, like, going home at three o'clock in their Aventador-

    11. JF

      (laughs)

    12. YF

      ... to a, you know, a mansion in the, in the hills, I'd be like, "Fine." You know, like, at least, like, we're all on the same page here. Like, it's a bit shit, but look what happens in, you know...

    13. JF

      Because the salary progresses like that.

    14. YF

      Yeah. (laughs)

    15. JF

      (laughs)

    16. CW

      Yeah.

    17. YF

      But yeah.

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. YF

      So you could see that, and I think people hold onto something because they always think, "Oh, well, it'll turn around. It'll get better. It'll get better." And then before you know it, you're 50, uh, and it's all too late.

    20. CW

      In a typical job, you're totally right.

    21. YF

      So you buy your own clothes.

    22. CW

      You, you have the ability to see your future years within that company ahead of you.

    23. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CW

      And it's your boss, and your boss's boss.

    25. YF

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      And so on and so forth.

    27. YF

      And sometimes, like some people will think, like, I'm really jealous of my boss. And definitely, like, the boss of most companies is doing all right.

    28. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. YF

      But, you know, most organizations are also like that.

    30. CW

      Yeah.

  13. 17:28 – 19:10

    Triggers to look out for

    1. JF

      And it was like, "What? No, that's ridiculous." Yes, I know, but-

    2. CW

      (laughs)

    3. JF

      ... here we are (overlapping speech)

    4. YF

      Well, I'm sorry about me. Yeah, sorry, sorry for being me. But yeah, so like, you don't... I, there's a, there was a, a palpable shift for me from like, "I'm here. I'm resenting it. I want to go home. I want to be let out of this."

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. YF

      To like, "Actually, I don't mind," like if I'm work- watching, something like Love Island's on in the background, I'm like, you know-

    7. CW

      Yeah.

    8. YF

      ... quick bit of work, quick email.

    9. JF

      (laughs)

    10. YF

      (laughs)

    11. CW

      So, so okay, so someone, someone might be unhappy in their job. Um, what are some of the real key triggers that you think people need to be looking out for? Because unfortunately, this is one area of business/careers which I'm wholly unqualified to talk about because I've never, except for a summer at the AA...

    12. JF

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      ... had a job. (laughs)

    14. JF

      (laughs) Summer at the AA.

    15. CW

      I was, like, on the call, uh, on the phones.

    16. JF

      You weren't, like, driving the truck to your... No.

    17. YF

      No, no, no.

    18. CW

      I would've been-

    19. JF

      Did not know about this.

    20. CW

      I, it was, you d- you didn't know me at the time, but I just did, I did calling during my placement, yeah.

    21. JF

      Right.

    22. CW

      I was like, "Oh, I need some extra cash." So I went and did that for four months.

    23. JF

      Didn't like it, I'm guessing. You're not going to go, "Oh, loved it." (laughs)

    24. YF

      Are you fucking with me?

    25. JF

      "Was class."

    26. CW

      Uh, no.

    27. JF

      Okay, interesting. So number one behavior, pacifying behavior, so self-medication.

    28. YF

      Yeah.

    29. JF

      When the, the, the existential pain starts to bear so much on your shoulders that you're like, "I'm gonna just blast myself on Friday to Sunday, get absolutely-"

    30. YF

      With all sorts.

  14. 19:10 – 23:36

    Living for the weekend

    1. JF

      that, yeah, yeah. It's like ingest things. So, like, looking for inane types of media to consume, putting calorie... very calorie-dense things in your mouth. Um-

    2. CW

      Cream.

    3. JF

      Cre- putting cream in your mouth.

    4. YF

      Just one form of medication after another.

    5. CW

      Putting... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    6. JF

      Like, lots of-

    7. YF

      I d- I joke about the cream, but people do, like, overconsume alcohol, like, get a takeaway on a Friday night because it's Friday.

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. YF

      Like, you know, "Oh, well, I'll have a special breakfast on Saturday 'cause it's Saturday." And, like, they're creating this, like, perfect world over a weekend.

    10. JF

      Of, like, of, of bingeing behavior.

    11. YF

      Because the week is so unpleasant.

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. JF

      And it's, uh, this is different to work hard, play hard. I don't think it's the same. I think, um, work hard, play hard is, like, have defined time boxes for when you do productive, deep work, and have times where you're relaxing fully.

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JF

      That's not the same as spending Friday to Sunday semi-conscious and then rolling into Monday being like-

    16. CW

      Work hard, drink hard.

    17. JF

      ... "Oh, here we go again."

    18. YF

      It's, I suppose it's like the living, the living for the weekend thing, isn't it? Like, if you really, like, you know when people, like, post everything on Instagram being like, "Oh, hump day," and all the shit about like, "Oh, it's Wednesday," or, "Halfway through the shit."

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. YF

      "Closer to 1:00, you know, closer to Friday when I can go out, and get drunk, and forget about Monday to Friday."

    21. JF

      I don't mean to judge people that do this, by the way. Like, this is definitely an experience that we've, we've been through ourselves and done this, and I just think, really, it's a red flag.

    22. YF

      It's just a warning sign, isn't it? Yeah.

    23. JF

      It's, yeah. And if you're doing it-

    24. YF

      It's like, "My knee hurts." Be like, "Oh, right."

    25. JF

      "Okay, so there's something wrong with it."

    26. CW

      "What, what have you been doing with your knee? Yeah."

    27. YF

      Yeah. (laughs)

    28. JF

      (laughs)

    29. CW

      There's no- yeah. You to- you are, you are totally right, like, people should be allowed to enjoy themselves on a weekend. But if that enjoyment is medication, or if that enjoyment on a weekend is done to, um-

    30. JF

      Excess.

  15. 23:36 – 25:02

    Bed in the morning

    1. CW

    2. YF

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      Um, one thing that I can think, again, another warning flag potentially for someone who's thinking about their career is how hard is it to get yourself out of bed in the morning when you've got work?

    4. YF

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      Like, if you really, really have to fucking force yourself out of bed and you're two coffees deep by the time that you get into the office, and you're ju- it just doesn't light a fire.

    6. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      Uh, we did an episode, um, for what the name of this podcast was before it was called Modern Wisdom that has never been aired, um, on purpose and meaning. It took two hours. But one thing that came out of that, that I don't forget is the best synopsis of what is purpose in life is a reason to get out of bed in the morning.... it's like the-

    8. JF

      It's a good metric.

    9. CW

      ... the coolest way, just the roughest hewn way to work out what purpose is. "Oh, I'm getting out of bed in the morning for something."

    10. YF

      I remember Becka saying, um, after I'd quit and was doing this, she... Like, I was just whistling one morning. Like, I was, like, drinking my coffee, like, getting ready, putting my own clothes on, um, whistling.

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. YF

      And she was like, she, like, stopped and loo- and looked at me, and like, "Are you being... Like, are you taking the piss?"

    13. CW

      (laughs)

    14. YF

      And I'm going, "What do you mean?" 'Cause, like, probably building up to that, like, every morning was like... In fact, I think I even used to sing-

    15. JF

      That's really nice.

    16. YF

      ... a song which was, "I don't want to go to work. I don't want to go to work." (laughs)

    17. CW

      (laughs) Oh, God. If you are singing a song which is called-

    18. YF

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      ... "I Don't Want to Go To Work," I think that that's a good indication.

  16. 25:02 – 25:51

    Taking the piss

    1. CW

    2. YF

      But I... Yeah. So-

    3. JF

      That's so lovely. Becau- 'cause it, the, the fact that the question was even like, "Are you taking the piss?" means-

    4. YF

      It was so unusual.

    5. CW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    6. JF

      ... that you were, like, so-

    7. CW

      Yeah. So it stops-

    8. JF

      ... sarcastic about your life (laughs) .

    9. YF

      It stops becoming work. But... Oh, I'm s- I'm moving on too quickly.

    10. CW

      Do you not think that-

    11. YF

      But-

    12. CW

      Do you not think the reason that you got asked about that is that whistling is so-

    13. YF

      Not unique.

    14. CW

      ... caricaturistically hi-ho? Hi-ho, it's off to work we go.

    15. YF

      (laughs)

    16. CW

      Like, it's just... It's (laughs) almost as if you're like, "Oh, what? What, are you going to have to go and work for your boss?"

    17. YF

      (laughs)

    18. CW

      "Put your suit on, peasant. I'm just gonna lie here with my cock out."

    19. YF

      (laughs)

    20. CW

      Hi-ho, hi-ho, hi-ho.

    21. YF

      (laughs)

    22. CW

      (laughs)

    23. JF

      I pay £200 a month to have the... (laughs)

    24. YF

      (laughs)

    25. JF

      To have the privilege.

    26. YF

      Yeah, you've got no idea how much it costs me to get to this position-

    27. JF

      (laughs) To have an arse.

    28. YF

      ... to be able to whistle in the morning.

    29. JF

      (laughs)

    30. YF

      Um,

  17. 25:51 – 29:24

    You dont feel excited

    1. YF

      but yeah, so escapist behavior, um, not wanting to get out of bed in the morning. That's-

    2. JF

      A sense of mojo lost, vicarious enjoyment of putting your meaning into something.

    3. YF

      And the stuff I said before as well, like, you, you just don't like it. Like, you don't feel excited. You don't feel... Um, 'cause there, there will be people who work (laughs) a 9:00 to 5:00 job, I assume, who love it, who feel like they're valued, who feel like they add a lot, who feel like they're really good at it-

    4. CW

      So this is my next-

    5. YF

      ... and have a lot of independence.

    6. CW

      This is my next question, which is you can be unhappy in your job, and many people are. I think it... The statistic is that, uh, 85% of people in the US are either...

    7. JF

      Neutral or-

    8. CW

      ... neutral or actively, uh, dissatisfied.

    9. YF

      Mm.

    10. CW

      Um, uh, is actively unengaged as opposed to, uh, actively engaged. 15% of people in the US, that's it. So, the only-

    11. YF

      (laughs)

    12. CW

      ... uh, the, the option for you is not only to go work for yourself though.

    13. YF

      Absolutely, yeah.

    14. CW

      You can move to another, mm, bureaucratic organization. You can move to a startup. You can move to other things. So, the next question is, okay, we've worked out that someone... If you're not unhappy in your job, then, like, fantastic. Listen and enjoy the remainder of these episodes. Use them to supplement your understanding of the business world, but you don't need to think about how they're going to apply to what you're doing.

    15. YF

      Mm.

    16. CW

      Stick at what you do, and become better and move up within that organization. Whereas, next little root down the thought tree is, "I'm unhappy. Should I work for myself, or should I move to another company and work for someone else?" How do we-

    17. JF

      So-

    18. CW

      ... how do we work that out?

    19. JF

      On that note, there's a very... So, you... This, this thought experiment you did where you take away certain-

    20. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. JF

      ... things. You know Juju Mufu?

    22. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JF

      The, the guy, the, like, now very famous and, and rich acro- uh, acrobat. He initially set out... Set up his life in the way that you described to start with, which was that he had a job that was like 10:00 till 4:00, and he was, and he was like bookkeeping or, like, admin stuff that was quite cognitively easy. It allowed him a two-hour lunch break, flexible time, and he set it up so that he was able to do as much, like, dancing around in the grass as possible, and training, and just enjoying his life, and didn't care about, like, um, up... What was it called? Upward-

    24. CW

      Mobility.

    25. JF

      ... upward mobility or anything like that. He was just, like, happy to just turn up, do the job, and, and set up his life so that his job was low stress and low cognitive load. Incidentally, he ended up (laughs) becoming very-

    26. YF

      Doing really well.

    27. JF

      Yeah, um-

    28. YF

      So if that... Uh, the people that I come into contact with who love their job usually aren't doing it because of the salary. And I think a lot of the people that I've spoken to were like, people who are, like, in one of our programs who are leaving their job. It's they, they started it because of, like, the gross annual salary. So I think certainly the world I was in, like, there's a lot of talk about, you know, people are leaving their accountancy firm to go into industry, and all people talk about is the annual gross number.

    29. JF

      Because at the end of the day, it's just

    30. CW

      But you're not taking home because it's getting chipped into, like, a motherfucker.

  18. 29:24 – 30:39

    You dont like your job

    1. CW

      job that allowed him-

    2. YF

      Oh yeah. So like d... So you're in this position. You don't like your job. What do you do? I would say, "Do you have anything in your job now that you are much better than your peers at?" So I think a lot of people have, like, a skill that they might be, like, outstanding at, for example, that's a specific skill. And you think, "Well, could I go and just do that somewhere else?" For example. It may be not chase the number, but instead just chase the interest.

    3. CW

      Mm.

    4. YF

      And this is... I mentioned this in the last podcast about what Alan Watts speaks about of, like, if you are genuinely really good at something, firstly, you'll enjoy doing it because you'll feel competent.

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. YF

      You'll feel like you're adding value. And if you're very good at it, chances are you'll be able to command a good salary or a good fee, whatever. So that may then manifest in a business, or you may need... That skill may be required in another business. So like people who are, like, interested in photography, for example, who might be exceptionally good at that, might go and do that for another business or go do it for themselves or, or whatever.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. YF

      But I think the decision to, like, set up your own business has to, has to be a desire to want to do that. I think that ha- if that, if there's not a natural, like, "I really want to do that," then I think it's probably a bad idea.

    9. CW

      Is it not probably,

  19. 30:39 – 31:12

    You cant be facilitated

    1. CW

      as well, if your particular passion or whatever it is that you have this pull towards doing for a profession-

    2. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... can't be facilitated by somebody else?

    4. YF

      Yeah. Yeah.

    5. CW

      So, with me, I couldn't go work for a- I couldn't go work for-

    6. YF

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... another promo company running these events in these clubs because they didn't exist.

    8. YF

      Yeah. And we were the same.

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. YF

      Yeah. So, like, I think that probably comes from pursuing an interest rather than a-

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. YF

      ... salary. Um, and if it turns out financially successful, that's kind of a side benefit.

  20. 31:12 – 33:09

    Salary

    1. YF

    2. CW

      Yeah. On a, a point about the salary thing, my flatmate at university went out of uni and went straight into... So he did it, this was 13 years ago, or 12 years ago, so it would have been before placement years were quite as ubiquitous as they are now. That pretty much everyone that I know either does a gap year where they'll go traveling, or does a placement year in industry or whatever it might be.

    3. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      Especially in business-related degrees.

    5. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CW

      Um, he, 21 years old, out of university, wet behind the ears, had lived at boarding school throughout all of, like, 13 to 18 as well, so had just been completely insulated for all this time. Well-rounded guy. Went straight out of university straight into the Audi graduate scheme.

    7. YF

      Oh, yeah.

    8. CW

      Which is 60 grand a year with a free Audi.

    9. YF

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      Um, but no one told him 70 hours a week and he'd be traveling all over the Northeast.

    11. YF

      Yeah. I remember, I, I knew a few people who, it wa- it wasn't Audi, I think it was maybe Tesco did a similar one, but the Audi was the one that everyone spoke about as being like-

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. JF

      'Cause the salary was good.

    14. CW

      The mental salary with the car-

    15. JF

      Yeah. See, I, I remember that as well, like-

    16. CW

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      ... thinking like, "Ooh, Audi's-"

    18. YF

      But people got sent to, like, Bradford for six months with no warning.

    19. JF

      (laughs)

    20. YF

      And you're like, "All right, you just meet me there."

    21. CW

      You know what the, you know what the, like, um, on-ramping process was for that? You had to spend the first two days as a checkout assistant.

    22. YF

      You have to work your way up from the bottom, don't you? It's a smart idea.

    23. CW

      Yeah. But you just do it at, like, an unbelievably accelerated rate.

    24. YF

      Yeah. (laughs)

    25. CW

      Um, it's like, it's like you move through someone's career of just 15 years-

    26. YF

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... in the space of, like, two months.

    28. YF

      Yeah.

    29. JF

      That's quite clever, actually, isn't it?

    30. YF

      It is. It's cool, yeah.

  21. 33:09 – 35:59

    Is there a job for everyone

    1. JF

    2. CW

      So, when you, when that sort of thing isn't right for you, it's interesting. One question that comes to mind at the moment, do you think that there is a job out there for everybody to l- like, a job that someone loves out there for everybody?

    3. YF

      Probably not.

    4. CW

      I'd agree.

    5. YF

      Yeah.

    6. CW

      I think that there's this, like, you know, you can-

    7. JF

      (coughs)

    8. CW

      ... you can get paid for your passion and everybody can, can just monetize what they love, man.

    9. YF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CW

      And it's like, I still fucking need my street cleaned. I still fucking need this.

    11. NA

      (coughs)

    12. JF

      That's a different question.

    13. CW

      Okay.

    14. JF

      That's, is there a person for every job versus is there a job for every person? And I think the, the problem is that everyone wants to be-

    15. NA

      (laughs)

    16. JF

      ... an Instagram influencer Juice Plus coach.

    17. CW

      (laughs)

    18. JF

      (laughs) But, th- maybe not, but th- th- there's v- vast-

    19. NA

      (laughs)

    20. JF

      ... demand for certain jobs and there's very little... So, like, we know someone who very cleverly... Um, so he's a smart guy, had an option to go into investment banking or corporate jobs and instead said, "I'm going to go into construction because I have this level of interest and drive in something that I know that if I were to apply it to investment banking, I would be in a, in a sea of extreme competition and not get anywhere."

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JF

      "Whereas if I enter more of a blue ocean and really pound it in the construction management sector, then-"

    23. CW

      Oh, so he saw a weak, weak competition professionally-

    24. JF

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      ... in a particular sector. That's clever.

    26. JF

      So it's really then, like, if you're willing to do a job that is kind of boring or un-sexy. Like, so I know someone else who runs a portaloo business and he's doing really well.

    27. CW

      Hmm.

    28. JF

      Because, like, it's not as sexy, you know, but he doesn't care. Like-

    29. YF

      That's still kinda hunting for the, for the paycheck though, isn't it? Like, that... I suppose it is all just about... So it's kind of the, it's the Mark Manson subtle art of not giving a fuck. It's like, it's what you're willing to tolerate. So, you know, there's a p- part in that book where he talks about, like, the, the person who loves the nine-to-five job is the person who is all right with the shit things about the nine-to-five job. The person who's good as an entrepreneur is the person who's all right with the fact that, like, next month he might-

    30. CW

      He might make no money.

  22. 35:59 – 38:59

    Arab business principles

    1. CW

    2. JF

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      Because Yusuf is mine and Johnny's window into the Arab world. And I just wondered if you have any family members or any, uh, uh, any friends that are Arab-

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... who-

    6. YF

      Sell batteries?

    7. CW

      ... have a particular approach to business, and if you had anything-

    8. JF

      I, I mean-

    9. CW

      ... signature to do with their style?

    10. JF

      To do with Arab business sty- I mean, my, my Arab family still believe that homosexuality is a-... is a, is a (taps table) disease that is spread through advertising on the internet.

    11. YF

      (laughs) Oh my God.

    12. JF

      And so, so like-

    13. CW

      Is this the 1660s? (laughs)

    14. JF

      But, um, Arab ... So you're going to have to elucidate on Arab business principles.

    15. CW

      Arab approaches to business.

    16. JF

      Arab approaches to b- (laughs)

    17. YF

      I'm sure there was a module at uni where you could study, like ... Because haven't they got different-

    18. JF

      Oh, do, do you mean like-

    19. YF

      ... banking rules and stuff?

    20. JF

      Yeah. J- So do you mean like the-

    21. CW

      No, no. I don't mean ... I mean, I mean-

    22. YF

      Oh, all right.

    23. CW

      ... cultural-

    24. YF

      Then that's interesting.

    25. CW

      ... cultural approaches to-

    26. JF

      Not, not Islamic finance principles, 'cause that, that is, that is a very ... that's a thing in itself. I w-

    27. YF

      Oh, right. I see.

    28. JF

      I, I wrote a dissertation on that.

    29. YF

      Oh, right. That's what it was.

    30. JF

      Yeah.

  23. 38:59 – 42:04

    Trading in shame

    1. CW

      to get my own paper towel. I want to put the soap on my own hands. Like, I don't want to feel guilty every time that I go to the bathroom when I work in clubs, like ...

    2. YF

      If I were doing what they do, I would invest, like, the first week's wages or how- however long it takes, and I would buy an iZettle contactless point-of-pend.

    3. JF

      Ah.

    4. YF

      Because, like-

    5. JF

      And they say, "How much do you want it?" So-

    6. CW

      I'm not sure that all of these guys are running-

    7. JF

      Legit.

    8. CW

      ... their cash (laughs)

    9. YF

      It doesn't, it doesn't matter about that. I know what you're saying, but, like, how many people have a couple of quid? How many people have a contactless card, or an, or an iPhone, or-

    10. JF

      So this is a controversial-

    11. YF

      I just think they'd get more, even if it, even if it's now taxed.

    12. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    13. YF

      God forbid.

    14. CW

      No, I, look-

    15. JF

      (laughs)

    16. CW

      I, I'm, I'm not ... Mm. Okay.

    17. JF

      Th- th- this is a controversial point though. Like, I've heard-

    18. YF

      Oh, I see what you mean.

    19. JF

      I've heard someone describing-

    20. YF

      (laughs)

    21. JF

      ... um, homeless people as trading in guilt, or trading in-

    22. YF

      That was in a blog post the other day.

    23. JF

      Uh, trading in shame. It was a, it was an old coach that I had that said that, and I was like ... It took me a while to kind of get around what he was saying, but I suppo- ... Like, home, homeless people, I don't think they are trading in shame. I think they, they have no choice. But the people in the, um, the tickets-

    24. CW

      Toilet attendants, yeah.

    25. JF

      Yeah. That ... You're right, the social cost of leaving is like, "Well, he did get the paper towel for me, even though I didn't want him to."

    26. CW

      Mm.

    27. JF

      It's, it's imposing a service on you. Or like, in America, have you been to New York-

    28. CW

      Yeah.

    29. JF

      ... where you hear people going, "Yo, you like rap music? You can buy my CD." And you're like, "No, no, I don't ..."

    30. CW

      Mm-hmm.

  24. 42:04 – 44:51

    Why do companies fudge

    1. CW

      made about the fact that if you give money to people in small amounts, they will buy immediately gratifying things, because in small increments money can only give you small amounts of happiness. And conversely, people think don't give, um, uh, people from low incomes, like, all of their year's allowance of di- like, um, payments in one go, because they're just gonna spunk it all and do whatever. But the-... converse has actually shown to be true.

    2. JF

      Ah, okay.

    3. CW

      That if you give someone £100 every week-

    4. JF

      The, the-

    5. CW

      ... that they'll just keep on buying fags. But if you give someone £5200, they'll actually think, "Oh my God, I've got £5200. Look at all of the things I can do with this £5200."

    6. JF

      That's so interesting.

    7. NA

      I should save some. I should-

    8. CW

      Yeah.

    9. NA

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      "I can invest some, I can buy... Oh, I should buy a bike and then I can get to work and then I can have-"

    11. JF

      Don't want to spend it all on fags.

    12. NA

      Yes.

    13. CW

      Yeah. As opposed to-

    14. JF

      (laughs)

    15. CW

      ... what can you do with a hundred quid a week? Like, get yourself pissed and have a, have a tab.

    16. NA

      Loads of wine gums. So-

    17. JF

      Wine gums. (laughs)

    18. CW

      Is that what you do?

    19. NA

      And fudge. (laughs)

    20. CW

      Um, so, uh, Arabic approaches to business. We've got the fact that they're a bit like forthcoming and everyone kind of, uh, plays the big man. Anything else? Any other sort of signature?

    21. JF

      Playing the big man, overpromising, underdelivering.

    22. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JF

      Um, it's very macho, kind of not wanting to lose face and being very com- like, a quite chest beaty, um-

    24. CW

      Does everyone, does everyone wear shirts that are open down to the sternum?

    25. JF

      I mean, I'm, I'm massively generalizing, but like (people laughing)

    26. CW

      That's the point. That's what we're trying to do here.

    27. JF

      Yeah, yeah, um-

    28. NA

      I imagine very hard negotiations, shouting.

    29. JF

      Uh, very passionate. But, but then again, like-

    30. CW

      Dax wax and grill cream.

  25. 44:51 – 46:32

    Trade for income

    1. CW

    2. NA

      Yeah. Um-

    3. CW

      That's why I could never be a trader. Can't be a trader.

    4. JF

      Yeah. Oh-

    5. CW

      Every time I try and trade-

    6. NA

      Live by the numbers.

    7. CW

      Every time that I try and trade, can't do it.

    8. JF

      So, so this is a, like, yeah, a case of, what's your threshold? Because trade, even full-time traders say, "Don't trade for income. Trade for wealth creation, wealth, like, growth of capital, but have a separate income." 'Cause if you're reliant on your monthly paycheck, it's dependent on your profits from trading day-to-day, and you're watching that, that horribly stressful-

    9. NA

      The red, the red candlestick.

    10. JF

      Ugh.

    11. NA

      It's the same reason why-

    12. JF

      Disgusting.

    13. NA

      ... surgeons aren't allowed to operate on family members. Is that ri- is that true?

    14. JF

      I, I imagine so, yeah. Like-

    15. NA

      'Cause you just can't see the, you can't see the wood for the trees, can you?

    16. JF

      (sighs)

    17. NA

      You're just panicking. So, like-

    18. JF

      Yeah.

    19. NA

      ... you buy or sell or do something stupid.

    20. CW

      If I was a full-time trader, my anus-

    21. NA

      Long Nike, Adidas.

    22. CW

      My anus would be-

    23. JF

      (laughs) Bitcoin.

    24. CW

      ... constantly-

    25. NA

      BlackBerry.

    26. CW

      ... pulsating.

    27. JF

      Ubisoft.

    28. NA

      (laughs)

    29. JF

      (laughs)

    30. CW

      The boys, the boys are laughing.

  26. 46:32 – 50:47

    Work for yourself

    1. CW

      which you hate into potentially another job, or then perhaps working for yourself.

    2. JF

      So-

    3. CW

      'Cause even, sorry to interject. Even if you have a passion that you like and you can monetize and do all the rest of it-

    4. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... if psychologically your profile doesn't allow you to not, uh, to have self-directed work and not have a boss who's laying out your structure for you-

    6. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      ... it's gonna be difficult. Maybe you could get a PA who could s- try and structure your week perhaps, or something like that.

    8. JF

      Or like that, that guy who paid a PA, paid someone to slap him every time he went off task. Have you heard about this?

    9. NA

      (laughs)

    10. CW

      No. Is that not the ultimate Pomodoro discipliner?

    11. JF

      Yeah. I, I, I thought-

    12. CW

      No? No?

    13. JF

      ... I thought one of you sent this article to me. It was a guy paid someone to just sit in a cafe and watch him work and slap him whenever he, like, changed tab or changed app or anything. And he said he didn't get slapped once.

    14. NA

      I bet that's worth every penny.

    15. JF

      Yeah, he, he... That's what he said.

    16. CW

      Yeah.

    17. JF

      He was like, "The most productive." (laughs)

    18. NA

      So he only paid, he paid per slap or did he pay per hour?

    19. JF

      Per hour.

    20. NA

      That's like playing for clicks or impressions, isn't it?

    21. JF

      Yes. (laughs)

    22. NA

      (laughs)

    23. JF

      However, I think-

    24. CW

      Bastard.

    25. NA

      (laughs)

    26. JF

      ... that's, what you said there about the sideways move is really interest- a really interesting point because the first decision is, should I work for myself or should I not? Can I tolerate the uncertainty of income? And then secondly, like, there is probably a lot of benefit or a lot of advantage to working for like a small startup of like five people or 10 people.

    27. CW

      George is doing that.

    28. JF

      Yeah. So, G- George is doing that. You're exposing yourself to a huge potential upside-

    29. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    30. JF

      ... um, with like maybe even a... if you can get like a share in the company or whatever.

  27. 50:47 – 53:48

    Being the boss

    1. CW

      Yeah. Uh, what was yours, Yusuf?

    2. JF

      Very, very similar. Um, it was, like, send the, send the boss a note. So, it was throughout the year having to keep it completely under wraps that I'm applying to med school because, um, it would obviously it would be the end of the job, 'cause you're on like a training program where they're investing a lot in you. Um, even flatmates didn't know. Family didn't really know. I think Johnny knew towards the end.

    3. CW

      Fuck me. So you'd gone like full-

    4. YF

      Yeah.

    5. JF

      So it was like-

    6. CW

      ... Egyptian Secret Service.

    7. YF

      Black Ops, yeah. Black Ops bodybuilding project.

    8. CW

      Oh, stealth mode.

    9. YF

      (laughs)

    10. JF

      And, like, preparing for this entrance exam which was, like, every day after work, four hours, weekends just all, all waking time just pounding it through the whole, whole time. Um, and then when I passed it, I was like, "Right, I've got, like, three weeks to, to give in my notice and then to get set up." So, I sent the boss an email as soon as I got the result. "Can I have a chat with you on Monday?" Met up on Monday, we sat down in the little room and she was like, (tongue clicks) "So you're quitting, ja?" Like, joking. And I was like, "Yeah."

    11. YF

      (laughs)

    12. CW

      (laughs)

    13. JF

      And she was like, (imitates foreign accent) "Oh, you're, you're not, not kidding. Okay. Uh, what are you, what are you going to do?" I was like, "Um, I'm gonna go study medicine." And she was like, "Oh, thank God. I thought you were going to say you were going to work for Goldman. Okay."

    14. YF

      (laughs)

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. JF

      "Well, I can't compete with this, so, uh, I, good luck. But you must specialize."

    17. YF

      (laughs)

    18. JF

      "Okay? Don't be GP." And I was like-

    19. CW

      You're a GP.

    20. JF

      Yeah. (laughs) Hello, I'm a GP.

    21. CW

      Was there a moment when you knew that you wanted to not do BlackRock and to go and do, uh-

    22. JF

      Quite early on in BlackRock.

    23. CW

      Okay.

    24. JF

      Because s- probably some of the-

    25. CW

      I'm just trying to find that-

    26. JF

      ... the moment of return.

    27. CW

      ... identifier. Yeah.

    28. JF

      Yeah. So, first of all it's like they, you go to New York. You see the intense passion that everyone has for the job. Like, they send you for a month in New York and you have to do, like, a bunch of, um, induction stuff. And you see people there who are just all, like, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, super, like, masters in various financial sciences and really just so passionate about this stuff.

    29. CW

      Just fucking love it.

    30. JF

      They, they absolutely get such a stiffy over it. And, like, people, like, they'll have high, high-powered execs from different, uh, parts of the company coming in and they're, they're like bursting for these questions. "Oh, what do you think about, like, um, potassium exports in Kazakhstan?" You know? (laughs)

  28. 53:48 – 55:52

    Best case scenario

    1. CW

      then?

    2. JF

      Yeah. So-

    3. CW

      So, 10 years of that person?

    4. JF

      As if it gets better, but it doesn't. Yeah.

    5. YF

      'Cause I, I think, like, uh, I, I, I remember thinking, like, "What is the best case scenario? If I stay here and everything goes perfectly-

    6. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    7. YF

      ... what will be happening?" And, like, I'll be round that corner.

    8. JF

      (laughs)

    9. YF

      Much older than I am now, having been here for ages. I'll still be looking at a very similar laptop, but just looking at slightly different spreadsheets and have a lot more-

    10. JF

      You've only got one screen as well. I've got-

    11. YF

      I've got one screen, yeah. Or they have... Sometimes they give them a, a, like, VGA to VGA.

    12. JF

      Oh, cool.

    13. YF

      Or it'll be HDMI now.

    14. JF

      (sighs)

    15. YF

      Um, but, like, a lot more responsibility. Mo- a lot more money, but, like, same building, longer hours, more... Like, your life's exactly the same.

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. YF

      Just when, in the time that you have when you get home before you go to bed, like, if you want, you can buy, like, really posh things online.

    18. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    19. YF

      And then at the weekend-

    20. CW

      Like seltzer water.

    21. YF

      Like seltzer, like loads of it. And then, like, you can go on nice holidays. So, in the, in, like, the 25 days a week that they give you.

    22. JF

      A year?

    23. YF

      Sorry, yeah. (laughs)

    24. JF

      (laughs) I wish.

    25. YF

      That would be mint. 25 days a year that you can spend ou- out of the work. You can go somewhere that costs you more money. Live in a bigger house or something.

    26. JF

      So I spent all of my, like, holiday time, like, standing in surgery, like shadowing surgery-

    27. YF

      Oh, God.

    28. JF

      ...it was like a pre, pre-application thing. They're, "Oh, did you have a nice holiday?" You're like, "Yeah, watched loads of, um, appendectomies and kid-"

    29. YF

      Kidneys, yeah, and kidneys.

    30. JF

      Yeah. (laughs)

  29. 55:52 – 1:08:22

    Career progression

    1. CW

      your progression, because there's so many people creaming off the top-

    2. YF

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      ... and because progression is based in a lot of bureaucratic organizations based on seniority, not on capability.

    4. YF

      It's based on time served a lot of the time. 'Cause otherwise, like, you would employ grads, and then the smartest grad you would just take him up here and give him the big, like, if he's legitimately smarter than all the management, then, like, why would you not promote him? But he's gotta have the time-

    5. CW

      What, experience?

    6. YF

      Well, well, yeah, but there's, there are points at which, like, e- even, e- experience is outpaced by intelligence.

    7. CW

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    8. YF

      But the, this idea that, like, you can't really accelerate that, so you're gonna be in there for that amount of time anyway.

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. YF

      If you don't really like that, then...

    11. CW

      I don't know. I think it's a lot to do with the way that people are wired and-

    12. YF

      Yeah, definitely.

    13. CW

      I hope that people aren't getting, like, triggered by... Well, like, you can be, but...

    14. JF

      This is just our experience though. It's hard to tell.

    15. CW

      It's the way that, um, it's the way that, and it's the fact that all three of us are wired the same way, but I think-

    16. YF

      Mm-hmm

    17. CW

      ... a lot more people are than, than think, uh, that they are.

    18. YF

      I certainly, like a lot of my friends working in accountancy jobs and, you know, seem to, at least they don't say to me-

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. YF

      ... like, "I hate it but I'm, I'm suppressing my feelings." Like, they seem to like it.

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. YF

      And I, we disagree on it. But you know, that's a preference.

    23. CW

      That's a preference, yeah.

    24. YF

      Like-

    25. CW

      I think-

    26. YF

      It's interesting that I feel like I get a lot of judgment about what I'm doing. I judge them, I suppose. But like, as long as they enjoy it-

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. YF

      ... I think it's great.

    29. CW

      So I think maybe going back to the Daniel Sloss jigsaw analogy, like different people value different things, right?

    30. YF

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:13:17

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