Sobriety 101 - Why Sobriety? | Modern Wisdom Podcast 123

1. 0:00 – 1:19

   Party culture’s false status signals: bottles, badges of honor, and hangovers

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      If you can only bear to be around your friends when you're drunk, like, you definitely need better friends. Full stop. "Oh, mate, can't wait to shut down Newcastle tonight." Horn emoji, horn emoji, aubergine emoji.

   2. JOJonny0:14

      It's such a (censored) thing, you know, when people get, like, a table and a bottle. And the first time that that becomes, like, something you can afford to do-

   3. CWChris Williamson0:20

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JOJonny0:20

      ... and you feel like such a big deal, and then you, like, the next morning you're like, "Oh, for (censored) "

   5. CWChris Williamson0:25

      "Why did I do that for?" I've been to Ibiza 12 times, and all that you're doing when you go away and you get that blind drunk is choosing what destination and visuals you want to deal with a hangover in.

   6. JOJonny0:35

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:35

      Have you ever had a hangover?

   8. YUYusef0:37

      Once. I think the first time I tried alcohol must have been a bit before that, which was a pint of gin.

   9. JOJonny0:43

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson0:43

       (laughs)

   11. YUYusef0:43

       So I just said...

   12. CWChris Williamson0:46

       Extreme events on nights out are seen as badges of honor. There's no other experience in which two s- university students would ring each other and say, "Hey man, how was your night last night?" And the other one goes, "Mate, it's amazing. John broke his leg." Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. I'm joined by the mustachioed man himself, Yusuf, and Johnny from propanefitness.com.

   13. JOJonny1:10

       Johnny from yusuf.com.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:11

       Johnny from yusuf.com. How are you? You good?

   15. YUYusef1:15

       Very good.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:16

       Thank you. Thank you for joining.

   17. JOJonny1:17

       Great.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:18

       Lovely.

   19. JOJonny1:18

       Yeah.

2. 1:19 – 2:54

   Why talk about sobriety? Personal context and the “hot potato” topic

   1. CWChris Williamson1:19

      Uh, we've circled around this topic for ages. We're talking about why sobriety today. All of us, either by religious doctrine or lifestyle choice, have gone sober (laughs) for extended periods. Uh, and even the man behind the camera, Video Guy Dean-

   2. JOJonny1:36

      Can you feel the hot potato? It's, it's, it's boiling.

   3. YUYusef1:38

      It's going into, it's in the pot.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:39

      It's coming out.

   5. YUYusef1:39

      I'm ready for it. I'm ready for it.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:40

      Um, yeah, the man behind the camera, Video Guy Dean, is one week away from a year sober, which is a fucking feet and a half. Mm-hmm.

   7. YUYusef1:50

      Feet and a half.

   8. JOJonny1:50

      Almost two feet.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:51

      Two feet? Yeah, well-

   10. JOJonny1:52

       Two and a quarter.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:52

       ... it's foot and a half, isn't it? Rounded up to two feet. So yeah, why s-

   12. JOJonny1:57

       (inhales deeply) Johnny.

   13. YUYusef1:59

       (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson1:59

       (laughs) Why sobriety is an interesting question, I guess. People who maybe haven't heard us talk about this topic before might not know what, like, w- why we even consider it something to think about. Um, like, I don't see a problem with my drinking. Everyone drinks, I've always drank. It's part of society. Um, but some of the people will know I've done episodes with Ed Latimore, I've done two with Don McGregor, uh, both of whom are massive sobriety advocates. Uh, Michael Cazayoux, who's, it was, like, addicted to fucking heroin at the age of 14 and stuff like that. He's big into it. Um, but yeah, I just wanted to ... A lot of people, it's the most, um, replied-to content that I put out online about resetting people's drinking habits. And I thought just having a discussion about it would be-

   15. JOJonny2:44

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:45

       ... pretty valuable.

   17. JOJonny2:46

       So what made you decide, what, what made you pick sobriety as something to do?

3. 2:54 – 4:26

   Chris’s decision to go sober: the time-and-life ‘accountant’ audit

   1. CWChris Williamson2:54

      Uh, so three years ago, now just approaching three years ago, and I needed, I just wanted to do more stuff. I was kind of in a bit of a rut with where I was at. Um, I was about to start doing CrossFit. That was one lifestyle change that I made. I was just like, "Like, I'm just fucking sick. Like, I'm not doing..." Uh, I thought life would be different than this somehow, and I need more time. I think I did this, like, analogy where I'd sit down with an accountant at the end of my year and look at how much time I had. It could have been you.

   2. JOJonny3:27

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:28

      Or Chris, it was probably Johnny.

   4. JOJonny3:29

      I think Chris it was, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:30

      Do not ring me. And, um, I looked at my, the amount of available time that I have across a whole year.

   6. JOJonny3:35

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:36

      And if my accountant was looking at it, he'd say, "Hang on a second. What's ... Like, every Saturday you lose a whole day. Then every Sunday you lose half a day. And then every Monday you lose a quarter of your day in terms of productivity units, whatever you want to call it."

   8. JOJonny3:48

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:48

      "Plus you're spending all this money. Plus you, it's, it's killing you. Like, it's making you live short. It's not going to make you live any longer." I was, just thought, "Hang on, if I stop drinking, I'll have more time to spend on anything which isn't drinking."

   10. JOJonny4:03

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:04

       Um, another big part of it was I get, I get increasingly bad hangovers as I get older, which I think everybody does. Um, another part of it was that it's expensive. I didn't feel like I had anything left to learn ...

   12. JOJonny4:18

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:18

       ... from alcohol. Like, it, it is a drug which takes you to the exact same place every single time.

   14. JOJonny4:25

       Every single time. Yeah.

4. 4:26 – 7:21

   Vegas and the repetition trap: learning and unlearning the same lesson daily

   1. CWChris Williamson4:26

      Um, and that's, like, one of the maddest memories that I've got, um, is going away to Vegas. Both times I've been away to Vegas for four days, the same four days, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, fly back on Thursday. And both times I've learned and unlearned the same lesson every 24 hours at around about 3:00 PM.

   2. JOJonny4:46

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson4:47

      Arrive, think I'm invincible, start drinking, continue to think I'm invincible. Wake up, realize I'm not, hate myself. Think, "Fuck, shouldn't have done that." Gets to 3:00 PM, forget how I felt on the morning, remember how I felt on the night, get back on it.

   4. JOJonny5:01

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson5:01

      And the mad thing is, 'cause when you get, like, super, super blackout drunk, um, it takes you to a place that's so overwhelming to all of your senses that you literally could have been in, like, the pub down the road.

   6. JOJonny5:13

      Anywhere, yeah. I do feel that there's a, there is some kind of, like, moral obligation to do that though when you go to Vegas at least once.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:21

      Oh, I think so.

   8. JOJonny5:21

      Like, I think if, if you go to Vegas and you just have a quiet time-

   9. YUYusef5:25

      It's part of the entry requirement, isn't it?

   10. JOJonny5:26

       Yeah. You've, like, you've, you've done it incorrectly.

   11. CWChris Williamson5:29

       Yeah.

   12. JOJonny5:29

       You've not had the-

   13. CWChris Williamson5:30

       To, to enter Vegas-

   14. JOJonny5:31

       ... to pay the price of admission.

   15. CWChris Williamson5:32

       Yeah.

   16. JOJonny5:32

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:32

       To get the stamp in your, in your passport.

   18. JOJonny5:34

       You have to have had that, like-

   19. CWChris Williamson5:36

       Experience.

   20. JOJonny5:36

       ... "What time is it?" "Not really sure."

   21. CWChris Williamson5:38

       "Let's drink."

   22. JOJonny5:39

       Mm-hmm. I nearly ate a bowl of-

   23. CWChris Williamson5:42

       Nuts.

   24. JOJonny5:42

       ... nut calamari at 3:00 in the morning in-

   25. CWChris Williamson5:45

       Oh.

   26. YUYusef5:45

       Oh.

   27. JOJonny5:46

       ... in a casino in Vegas.

   28. YUYusef5:47

       Is that even a thing, nut calamari?

   29. JOJonny5:49

       So I ordered calamari and a pizza, 3:00 AM, pissed (imitates vomiting) , and I said to the waiter just as he was leaving, "By the way, I've got a nut allergy." And he went, "My god." (laughs) I'm like, (exhales) . He's like, "Sir, we cook everything in peanut oil."

   30. YUYusef6:01

       I love when, when you-
5. 7:21 – 14:03

   Jonny’s drinking history: from student binges to ‘table and bottle’ adulthood

   1. JOJonny7:21

      So I, I think my drinking definitely used to be, uh, quite a big deal. Like I used to drink a lot. So-

   2. CWChris Williamson7:29

      What's a lot?

   3. JOJonny7:30

      Well, I mean, so at uni heavily, three times a week, four times a week, um, like obviously freshers' week. I think the most I did (laughs) , there's a story I can't say for various reasons, but there's a, there's a thing I did where I, I, uh, drank every night for 14 nights in a row and every night I began with a bottle of, um, white Grenache, Gallo Family white Grenache wine.

   4. YUYusef7:54

      What's that? Oh.

   5. JOJonny7:55

      So it's rosé wine from like the co-op. It ... To be honest, awful. But at the time you just become so acclimatized.

   6. CWChris Williamson8:02

      (laughs)

   7. JOJonny8:02

      And I remember drinking the entire bottle while playing Call of Duty before going on this night out. And every time being, getting slightly better at Call of Duty as the nights went on thinking, "This is having less and less of an effect."

   8. CWChris Williamson8:12

      (laughs) Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. JOJonny8:13

      While the-

   10. YUYusef8:13

       You felt like you were getting less drunk-

   11. JOJonny8:15

       From the same bottle, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson8:17

       Yeah.

   13. YUYusef8:17

       Every day, wow.

   14. CWChris Williamson8:17

       Yeah.

   15. YUYusef8:17

       Okay, progressive overload.

   16. JOJonny8:18

       In, uh, in the same period of time, I, first time hit, I hit a 140 bench.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:22

       Mm-hmm, that's a secret?

   18. JOJonny8:23

       It was one of the most proud periods of my life. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson8:24

       That's the secret? (laughs)

   20. JOJonny8:26

       But yeah, so used to be like that. Um-

   21. CWChris Williamson8:28

       So very representative drinking then and then what did you move into when you were at work then?

   22. JOJonny8:31

       So it started, um, in like accountancy training and it got quite bad again, so it tapered off 'cause like, you know, you think like, "Pffft, shit, I've got to actually get a degree here otherwise this has been a major waste of time and money."

   23. YUYusef8:44

       (laughs)

   24. JOJonny8:44

       So like got a degree, started a job and then it's like freshers again and suddenly everyone wants to go out again. And it wasn't that bad 'cause obviously you've got to go to work but it probably got more intense, so that's when Vegas happened twice. Um-

   25. CWChris Williamson8:55

       Mm-hmm. You've got more money now to spend on drinking, right?

   26. JOJonny8:58

       Yeah. Yeah, suddenly you're like, "Oh okay, like I can, I can now go."

   27. CWChris Williamson9:00

       The previous material limitations of your alcoholism have been cancelled.

   28. JOJonny9:04

       Exactly, yeah (laughs) . I can now drink but in other parts of the world.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:06

       Yeah (laughs) .

   30. YUYusef9:06

       (laughs)
6. 14:03 – 18:20

   Three months sober: the hidden cost of ‘just a few beers’

   1. JOJonny14:03

      ... legit, yeah, like really drunk. It was brilliant. But, um, so I, I was having like probably a couple of beers the odd night out here and there, but not as, not as serious. But the thing that I found, giving it up for three months, the biggest change was you realize just how many like little things you go to where the default would be three beers, four beers, and then you add that up and you're like, "Shit, over like three weeks I've had, you know-"

   2. CWChris Williamson14:29

      Twenty beers.

   3. JOJonny14:29

      ... however many calories from alcohol or, you know, that you wake up the next day, you're a bit fuzzy or there's the odd time where you wake up and you think, "I probably shouldn't drive." And I, and you just think, like, wh- wh- I haven't really, I couldn't quantify the gain. 'Cause in a way, like if you go to Vegas and you get blind pissed, at least you've got all those stories.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:48

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JOJonny14:48

      But if you just have a few beers and then have like a few conversations where the other person's had four beers as well, and it would have been exactly the same conversation if you'd both been sober. You know, all, all I've had is downside here.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:00

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JOJonny15:00

      I've had cost, calories, lost time, lost like mental clarity-

   8. CWChris Williamson15:04

      Bored conversation.

   9. JOJonny15:06

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:06

       Yeah.

   11. JOJonny15:06

       And I suppose it makes it, like it takes the edge off a little bit, doesn't it? Which is why people do it.

   12. CWChris Williamson15:10

       Yeah.

   13. JOJonny15:10

       If you think, like, why do people drink? They get something out of it at the time.

   14. CWChris Williamson15:14

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JOJonny15:14

       And we live in a society where people make very short-term decisions and ignore the long-term costs.

   16. CWChris Williamson15:18

       (laughs) .

   17. JOJonny15:19

       So that, that's why it's a problem.

   18. CWChris Williamson15:20

       It is. It's a, the, the reason that people choose to drink is for a whole host of reasons, but one of, one of the main ones is that their, um, the gains are immediate and the costs are in the future.

   19. JOJonny15:32

       They're tomorrow, aren't they?

   20. CWChris Williamson15:33

       Yeah.

   21. JOJonny15:33

       Tomorrow's problems.

   22. CWChris Williamson15:34

       It's like, future Youssef will deal with this hangover.

   23. JOJonny15:36

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson15:36

       Have you ever had a hangover?

   25. YUYusef15:38

       Once.

   26. JOJonny15:39

       (laughs)

   27. YUYusef15:39

       Yeah. So...

   28. CWChris Williamson15:43

       Is that when you drank an entire bottle of spirit?

   29. YUYusef15:45

       The, the, surprisingly not. It was, so I've, there's a lot of backstory to this.

   30. CWChris Williamson15:48

       Don't tell me it was after I made you drink that rum.
7. 18:20 – 21:28

   Yusef’s outsider perspective: late first drink, ‘pint of gin,’ and disliking party culture

   1. CWChris Williamson18:20

      Yeah, and then you were someone who was sober for ... So, I mean, what did you think of party culture when you were at uni and stuff?

   2. YUYusef18:26

      I just couldn't be arsed with it. I found it so exhausting. Like, I would always be the boring old man at, like, 1:00 AM and I'd be like, "Right, guys." They'd be like, "Yes." (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson18:34

      (laughs)

   4. YUYusef18:34

      "Come and dance with us." And I'd be like, "No."

   5. JOJonny18:38

      (laughs)

   6. YUYusef18:38

      I'm like, "I'm so tired." And, like, I, I, I'll tell the poo type, poo types story as well.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:44

      (laughs)

   8. YUYusef18:44

      But, um-

   9. JOJonny18:45

      (laughs) Oh, God.

   10. YUYusef18:45

       ... but the, but the, the gin was just like, in my mind, alcohol was something that it was ... it's a drug, like there are many spectrum of other drugs possible.

   11. JOJonny18:54

       (laughs)

   12. YUYusef18:54

       And so I just thought, like, "Okay, how would I try a drug?"

   13. JOJonny18:58

       (laughs) IVing it.

   14. YUYusef18:59

       I would take, I would take a therapeutic dose of it-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:02

       (laughs)

   16. YUYusef19:02

       ... um, in, in a, in a bolus and then wait for the result and see what happens. And I was like-

   17. JOJonny19:07

       (laughs)

   18. YUYusef19:08

       And I, and I would, I would administer it in the most efficient manner that I could. So it was like, "Well, I can't go IV."

   19. JOJonny19:14

       (laughs)

   20. YUYusef19:15

       "So I'll have to just ... I'll, I'll find ... What's, what's a concentrated drink that's quite, like, botanical and nice? Gin."

   21. CWChris Williamson19:20

       Botanical. (laughs)

   22. YUYusef19:23

       Gin. Yeah. Gin will be nice. So I had, had, um, had ... It was like-

   23. JOJonny19:26

       Ugh.

   24. YUYusef19:26

       ... something value. Like it was a cheap, cheap gin.

   25. JOJonny19:28

       Oh, value gins.

   26. CWChris Williamson19:29

       Cheap gins.

   27. JOJonny19:29

       Come on, man.

   28. CWChris Williamson19:30

       Brutal.

   29. JOJonny19:31

       God.

   30. YUYusef19:31

       So I had that and then, like, just didn't have anything else the rest of the night. And it's, I suppose, similar to, like, you know, you were saying, like, you have, you have, like, a few beers. You're like, "Oh, that was a bit rubbish," and there's a lot of calories and fluid. (Harry Potter theme tune plays) Um, is that the Harry Potter theme tune?
8. 21:28 – 28:05

   Confidence, connection, and sedation: what alcohol ‘claims’ to provide

   1. CWChris Williamson21:28

      But to really ... Like the philosophical side of it's not one that I'd really thought of, but you, you're really correct with that, the fact that (clears throat) people say, "I use alcohol because it helps to make me more confident on a night out."

   2. JOJonny21:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson21:40

      "Okay, so you're not confident on a night out." "No, I, I am." "Right, okay, what happens if I remove the alcohol 'cause the alcohol's not a part of you?" It's like me saying I can run 100 meters in one second if I'm in a car.

   4. YUYusef21:49

      (laughs) But Johnny's car can go 100 miles an hour.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:53

      100 miles an hour. Yeah.

   6. JOJonny21:53

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson21:53

      No, I know the words to Candle in the Wind.

   8. YUYusef21:55

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson21:55

      Um, yeah, like, that's one of the reasons that people say that they drink. They say, um, "It makes me more personable and it makes me have more of a laugh around my friends."

   10. JOJonny22:04

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson22:04

       And you're like, "Right, okay, so your friends' not funny if you don't have a drink."

   12. YUYusef22:07

       (sniffs) Mm.

   13. CWChris Williamson22:07

       Um, yeah, maybe. So you're like, "Right, okay, so why are you going out?" "Well, I'm going out because my friends want me to go out, but I have to drink because otherwise I'd be bored." "Okay, so you're taking this substance to sedate yourself from the fact that you can't bear to be around people you're choosing to be around without sedating yourself to be around them."

   14. JOJonny22:27

       Yeah.

   15. YUYusef22:27

       It's depressing when you put it like that. It's like-

   16. CWChris Williamson22:30

       An interesting experiment.

   17. YUYusef22:31

       ... it's just I hate my life, isn't it? (laughs)

   18. JOJonny22:32

       Well, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson22:34

       Oh.

   20. JOJonny22:34

       I think, like, for some people that is the case. But the ... So when I, when I ... Some of the things I tried when I was at uni, when I was really heavily into like, you know, calories that ... You know, alcohol calories are metabolized differently to carbs, and I need to time it. So I tried to consume alcohol in a way that would, you know, according to the science that I understood at the time not store any of it as, as body fat, which was some really extreme shit. Um-

   21. CWChris Williamson22:59

       What like?

   22. JOJonny23:00

       Well, just Menno Hensel and front loading all of it, so I did-

   23. YUYusef23:03

       And no fat during the day.

   24. JOJonny23:05

       Yeah.

   25. YUYusef23:05

       Like-

   26. JOJonny23:05

       So only protein, only protein throughout the day and then I basically did Centurion with shots of vodka until I reached the point where I was like, "I'm drunk enough now." Then I left the house and drank only water and got back and still had a hangover, so it was like fucking pointless.

   27. YUYusef23:21

       (laughs)

   28. JOJonny23:21

       Um, but during that time I tried going out sober to see what it would be like. And if you just reframe it as like everyone is expecting me to be drunk if I just do what I want.

   29. (laughs)

   30. If I'm just like ... You see Mark on the Peep Show, Rainbow Rythms, very good. Does that.
9. 28:05 – 32:33

   Alcohol as a poorly designed drug: dose size, side effects, and cultural normalization

   1. CWChris Williamson28:05

      Yeah. It's, it's interesting, like if you were to design a drug, this is like a, a Hamilton Morris thing that he talks about with alcohol, uh, Hamilton Morris, Hamilton's Pharmacopoeia, big psychonaut, loads of like psychedelic research.

   2. JOJonny28:17

      Big Pharma, the man behind Big Pharma-

   3. CWChris Williamson28:17

      But he's not, he's the opposite.

   4. YUYusef28:19

      Oh, right.

   5. CWChris Williamson28:19

      He's the man behind big drugs.

   6. YUYusef28:21

      Anti Big Pharma.

   7. CWChris Williamson28:21

      Anti big drugs.

   8. YUYusef28:22

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson28:22

      Um, and he talked about like, if you were going to design a drug, it would not be alcohol, for, um, the ... what was the, what's that thing, dose? The-

   10. JOJonny28:34

       Therapeutic.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:34

       ... therapeutic dose amount is fucking huge.

   12. JOJonny28:37

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson28:38

       Um, the effects of it, it's like, what do you want? Do you want, um, memory loss and lowered inhibitions-

   14. YUYusef28:45

       Uh.

   15. CWChris Williamson28:45

       ... a little bit of aggressiveness, and some kind of, like, enhanced sadness, and kind of, uh-

   16. YUYusef28:50

       Plus lower sex drive, um, massive, like, anxiety rebound after effect, worse sleep, worse, like, liver function. All, all these things that are just like ...

   17. CWChris Williamson29:00

       How about, how about having your willpower the next day completely through the floor?

   18. JOJonny29:03

       And jury.

   19. CWChris Williamson29:03

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. JOJonny29:04

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson29:05

       So I, it's just like, if you were to design a drug, alcohol would be-

   22. JOJonny29:08

       It's interesting.

   23. CWChris Williamson29:08

       ... a shit one. And I think what's interesting for you is, Yusuf, is that because you weren't indoctrinated into this little fucking cabal of alcoholism when you were 18 and you go to uni and you're like, "Oh my God, I've got a flat and halls of residence, and I can drink," you view it as you view every other drug. It's like, "Okay, should I try, should I try nicotine?" Like, I wondered, like have you ever put a nicotine patch on? I bet you have.

   24. YUYusef29:33

       Not, not a patch, but I'm very keen to, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson29:35

       You, just because-

   26. YUYusef29:36

       I've, I've tried like, like, um, what's it called?

   27. CWChris Williamson29:40

       Snus.

   28. YUYusef29:40

       Yeah, snus, snorting it, whatever, just like try-

   29. CWChris Williamson29:44

       I wonder what happens. What's a therapeutic dose? I will choose da, da, da, da, da, da.

   30. YUYusef29:47

       Very much out of curiosity, yeah.
10. 32:33 – 39:22

    The 30-year-old reckoning: compounding habits and ‘two steps forward, two back’

    1. CWChris Williamson32:33

       Mm-hmm. So obviously, I mean, the, the elephant in this room-

    2. JOJonny32:35

       Uh-huh.

    3. CWChris Williamson32:35

       ... is that I make my money from drunk people, and I've done a mil- I've had a million people-

    4. JOJonny32:39

       (clears throat)

    5. CWChris Williamson32:39

       ... a million customers go into my events-

    6. JOJonny32:41

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson32:41

       ... and all of them, uh, I would guess 95% of them, more, were drinking. Um, but again, I don't have a problem with drinking. I don't think that that's a bad thing. My problem is when you do that back and forth for like 30 years-

    8. JOJonny32:56

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson32:56

       ... 20 years, even 10 years. Like throughout your 20s, if all that you do is live for the weekend and be a weekend warrior, you hit 30 and you're like, "Mate, what the fuck? You, you've taken two steps forward and two steps back every week." Your weight loss goals aren't going anywhere. Why do you think that is? You've never developed any good habits. Your sleep's still fucked. Your mood's still fucked. All of the skills that you should have that you can then double down on for the rest of your life, like confidence or the ability to, to like approach anxiety, the ability to approach someone of either the same sex or a different sex, um, your ability to deal with, um, anxious situations or uncertain situations, like all of that. Plus, let's talk about cost on time, cost on money, cost on calories, the hangover the next day, all the mistakes that you... that's not even to talk about social cost.

    10. JOJonny33:38

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson33:38

        How many times d- do you cheat on your girlfriend or get in a fight or fucking lose your keys or annoy someone or lose a friend or fucking whatever?

    12. JOJonny33:45

        So the thing you said about like you hit 30 and you're like, "Oh God, I've kind of pissed away quite a lot of money-"

    13. CWChris Williamson33:50

        Literally.

    14. JOJonny33:50

        "... time, age," et cetera. Yeah, like-

    15. CWChris Williamson33:53

        Yeah, a lot of time pissing.

    16. JOJonny33:54

        Yeah. (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson33:54

        And then a-

    18. JOJonny33:54

        Wow.

    19. CWChris Williamson33:55

        ... out again. Yeah.

    20. JOJonny33:55

        And, um, there's something you mentioned before we started recording is like we're, we're 30 now, like thereabouts, and I think this is the age where you see people that you used to go to school with and you haven't seen them in maybe 10 years, and for some of them you're like, "Oh yeah, looking good," and some of them you're like, "Oh," like-

    21. CWChris Williamson34:14

        Tough day for around the last decade, mate.

    22. JOJonny34:15

        Yeah. Yeah, like, "What's happened to you?" And I think that's because like at 16 years old you can do... like, well, at four years old, like all four-year-olds are the same, like they can do whatever they want and they're fine.

    23. CWChris Williamson34:24

        You just made of flubber, aren't you?

    24. JOJonny34:25

        Rubber and- Just made of rubber and magic. (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson34:27

        Rubber and magic.

    26. JOJonny34:27

        You throw them off a wall.

    27. CWChris Williamson34:27

        Yeah, you just bounce back. Yeah.

    28. JOJonny34:28

        16, still the same thing, like you can, you can be, uh, like a chain smoker, drink loads, like terrible lifestyle-

    29. CWChris Williamson34:34

        Very resilient.

    30. JOJonny34:35

        You can do that then wake up the next day and do heavy deadlifts. Yeah, literally.
11. 39:22 – 42:34

    Sobriety stigma and social pressure: why people ‘lawyer up’ excuses

    1. CWChris Williamson39:22

       Like even if you're 30, like and then I guess maybe as y- as you move a little bit further on, but it seems to me to be s- the, the few people that do, and this is an Ed Latimore-ism, right? The a- alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it, people assume you have a problem.

    2. JOJonny39:36

       It's a problem, yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson39:37

       And that's why so many people, I think, have a, this aversion to going sober. Sobriety's seen as something that's only done when someone has an issue with alcohol.

    4. JOJonny39:46

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson39:46

       It can't be a lifestyle choice.

    6. YUYusef39:48

       Let's talk about that, like the, the, the s- the backlash that you get when you don't drink. Like, do you get social backlash? Do you get people like assuming you have a problem or trying to get you to drink, trying to like get you to join in and...

    7. CWChris Williamson39:59

       They did when I started.

    8. YUYusef40:00

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson40:01

       They did when I started, but I'm like fairly sort of well-stanced now as the sobriety guy or the guy, the guy that does periods of sobriety. This-

    10. YUYusef40:09

        People give up trying to like

    11. CWChris Williamson40:10

        But not even that. It's like I think a lot of people are very timid about, let's say that they've got something on the next morning. You, you go into it like people have to go into it fucking caveats and litigation about why they're not drinking.

    12. JOJonny40:23

        Uh, yeah. Uh.

    13. CWChris Williamson40:24

        "Oh, mate, well, I've got, uh, I've got doctor's appointment at 10:00 in the morning."

    14. JOJonny40:28

        (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson40:28

        Like or maybe that's not even the truth, but they have to do it because, "Oh, I've, I've brought the car."

    16. JOJonny40:32

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson40:33

        Like, or, um, some, I know some people who take their car keys out with them without the car.

    18. YUYusef40:37

        Really?

    19. CWChris Williamson40:38

        So they can be like, "Oh, I've got the car, man. Like I don't need to, I can't drink." And it's like that's how-

    20. YUYusef40:43

        It's the equivalent of, "I've got a boyfriend."

    21. CWChris Williamson40:45

        Exactly.

    22. YUYusef40:45

        When, when you haven't got a boyfriend. (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson40:47

        Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. It is.

    24. JOJonny40:49

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson40:49

        But it's, it's, it neutralizes that conversation quickly because people are like, "Oh, I'm prepared to push you if I think it's your will, but there's certain things I'm not prepared to push you on." But people are prepared to push you if they think it's your will. I'd like, why?

    26. YUYusef41:01

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson41:01

        And I, again, I get it. We are all here, the, fucking hell, this podcast went up, (clears throat) this breaks down the podcasting schedule again.

    28. YUYusef41:10

        (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson41:10

        Today's episode went up with Paul Bloom and he does this (clears throat) video guy, Dean, picked out the best experiment in there. I wonder if you know about this. Psychology experiment, they put people in a room and they get all of them to toss a coin. By law of averages, about f- half of them go over there, half of them go over there. Tails group, heads group, and they go over to the tails group and they're like, "What, what do you think of yourselves then?" Like, "Well, we're so..." Looks like we're a bit smarter, doesn't it? They go, "What do you think about the heads group?" Like, "Ah, like you've got a b- bunch of dicks over there. They're just a load of schmoes."

    30. YUYusef41:38

        Mm-hmm.
12. 42:34 – 52:50

    Friendships under sobriety: who supports you vs who needs you to self-destruct

    1. YUYusef42:34

       And it's like, hang on a second. If you're fucking annihilating yourself and taking two steps back this weekend, if you were that good of a friend, you'd support me in my cause for sobriety. So that was like one of the main questions or one of the main issues people have when they go sober is how do I do this when all of my friends around me drink? And it's like, well...

    2. CWChris Williamson42:54

       It'll identify exactly who the friends are that are in your life that are good for you.

    3. JOJonny42:58

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson42:59

       Because the ones who are like, "Fucking hell man, are you trying that?" Like, if you explain your reasons, "Really? You're gonna ... fucking hell, well, like, fair play man." As opposed to, "What, like, what you're not coming out ... You think you're better than us? Like, what, you're not coming out?" And it's like, it manifests in-

    5. JOJonny43:13

       Not if that's not in your best interests at heart then, mate.

    6. CWChris Williamson43:14

       They don't care. They only want you there if you're destroying yourself with them.

    7. JOJonny43:17

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson43:17

       And if you can only bear to be around your friends when you're drunk, like, you definitely need better friends, full stop.

    9. JOJonny43:24

       I think it comes from ... so, uh, th- I have, I have some friends who sometimes don't drink, and they are boring as sin when they do that. Like, not, not just because they're sober, but I think it's because they're in this mindset of like, "I'm not really fully participating here." They leave early, they're not ... they're a bit, you know, th- reserved.

    10. CWChris Williamson43:45

        Yep.

    11. JOJonny43:46

        Youssef's a good example. Like, he's there, and he'll be there till it finishes, whatever the thing finishes.

    12. CWChris Williamson43:51

        Yeah.

    13. JOJonny43:52

        He's not drinking, and you can't ... you don't even notice.

    14. CWChris Williamson43:54

        (laughs)

    15. JOJonny43:54

        In fact, he's probably more, like, uninhibited, inhi- inhibited, yeah. (laughs)

    16. CWChris Williamson43:58

        Uninhibited.

    17. JOJonny43:59

        Uh, inhibited than other people who are drinking.

    18. CWChris Williamson44:01

        But that's a ... a lot of that is to do with the fact that Youssef never had to rely-

    19. JOJonny44:05

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson44:06

        ... on alcohol to be that crux to make them sociable, 'cause you've-

    21. JOJonny44:09

        But ... so-

    22. CWChris Williamson44:09

        ... you've developed that particular pathway to be like, "Oh, I can be here, and I can not drink, but I can also be a part of this group."

    23. JOJonny44:16

        But I've been on nights out with you when you're not drinking. Ben's another good example. Like, they're just there, they're not drunk, but they're still being ... still having a good time. They're still engaging in it. And I think where this ... for me, anyway, where I'll have a resistance to it is if some people say, "I'm bringing the car," just, like, you feel like saying, "Look, just don't, just don't come," because you don't, you don't really want to be there.

    24. CWChris Williamson44:37

        Yeah.

    25. JOJonny44:38

        You're just kinda doing half so that no one gives you shit. But I think it's ... for some people, it feels like there's a, there's a shift in the way that they act when it's like, "Right, I'm not bringing the car," or, "I'm not driving."

    26. CWChris Williamson44:49

        Hmm, fucking hell, let's get on it boys.

    27. JOJonny44:51

        But, like, there's no reason why you can't just be like that. It's like the thing I was saying with the nightclub, like, once you realize that it's all an illusion anyway, and that you can just be how you want-

    28. CWChris Williamson45:00

        Yeah.

    29. JOJonny45:00

        ... and if people judge you, then ... like, they're gonna judge you either way, so just have a good time.

    30. CWChris Williamson45:04

        Yeah.
13. 52:50 – 57:20

    Dry January pitfalls and the ‘countdown’ mindset: renounce, then rebound

    1. JOJonny52:50

       I think the ... There's, there's definitely ... 'Cause I ... It's al- , uh, something that I know that we all do is, like, there's something you do, there's a behavior. It's like, "Right, I'm gonna try and not do that."

    2. CWChris Williamson53:00

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JOJonny53:01

       Like, "I love doing that."

    4. CWChris Williamson53:01

       Caffeine. Sleeping in a bed. Masturbation. Uh-

    5. JOJonny53:05

       Phone use is the latest one.

    6. CWChris Williamson53:06

       Phone use.

    7. JOJonny53:07

       Social, social media and all that. That's my latest. Like-

    8. CWChris Williamson53:10

       Yeah.

    9. JOJonny53:10

       ... still don't feel like I'm-

    10. CWChris Williamson53:11

        Sleeping late. Sleeping in.

    11. YUYusef53:13

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JOJonny53:13

        All sorts of stuff.

    13. CWChris Williamson53:14

        Yeah.

    14. JOJonny53:14

        Eating.

    15. CWChris Williamson53:15

        Yeah.

    16. JOJonny53:15

        Not eating for three days.

    17. CWChris Williamson53:16

        So, that ... Yeah, go on.

    18. JOJonny53:17

        Um, well, just how ... I, I think people do Dry January, and you'll s- you'll see it happen as January rolls around. Like, people's social media fills up with, like, "Can't wait for ..." You know, people put those countdown timers on their Instagram story.

    19. CWChris Williamson53:32

        Until when they get to have a drink again.

    20. JOJonny53:33

        And then they go back at it, just as in, in a, just as an intense fashion. And, like, realistically, all you've done, you know-

    21. YUYusef53:40

        This is renouncing something and then bringing it back harder into your life again.

    22. JOJonny53:44

        Yeah. And you, well, you've done it. You've maybe given internally a month of, of rest to those systems.

    23. CWChris Williamson53:49

        (laughs)

    24. JOJonny53:50

        But, like, what effect ... Especially if you go harder when you go back.

    25. CWChris Williamson53:53

        Oh, yeah. The first, the first couple-

    26. JOJonny53:54

        It's-

    27. CWChris Williamson53:54

        ... of weekends, where you compensate.

    28. YUYusef53:56

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson53:56

        It's like the person-

    30. JOJonny53:56

        Overcompensate.
14. 57:20 – 59:28

    Diminishing returns and real harm: ‘each drink makes the next harder to refuse’

    1. YUYusef57:20

       But everyone... So there's two, there's two like little clichés that I've come up with since thinking about this.

    2. JOJonny57:25

       (laughs)

    3. YUYusef57:25

       One of them is that, um, every drink you have makes not having a subsequent drink more difficult.

    4. JOJonny57:30

       Yeah.

    5. YUYusef57:31

       Everyone's been out and one wine turns into a couple of beers, turns into a bottle of vodka-

    6. JOJonny57:36

       Yeah.

    7. YUYusef57:36

       ... turns into a kebab at 3:00 in the morning.

    8. JOJonny57:37

       Mm-hmm.

    9. YUYusef57:38

       Everyone's let it get awa-... Like there's even that super fucking meme about, "I just popped out, and now I've ended up at out."

    10. JOJonny57:44

        (laughs)

    11. YUYusef57:45

        Do you know what I mean? There's that.

    12. JOJonny57:46

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. YUYusef57:46

        And then the other thing that I realized, I've, I keep meaning to make a graph about this, but, um, alcohol gives you diminishing margins of return in terms of pleasure, but gives you, uh, exponential increase in terms of suffering. So, ten beers doesn't double your enjoyment from five beers, but it more than doubles your suffering the next day.

    14. JOJonny58:05

        Mm-hmm.

    15. YUYusef58:05

        It starts to become really quite serious actually. I, any, anyone who's had like... So I think pro- if we're talking pints, over seven, I think you're into some real- Shit. ... quite serious territory there. Like that's a lot of volume. I need to... So there's a, there's a glass ceiling that I bounce off unless I get spirits out.

    16. JOJonny58:23

        Yeah.

    17. YUYusef58:24

        Like there's only... 'cause you're just limited gastrointestinally.

    18. JOJonny58:28

        Yeah.

    19. YUYusef58:28

        Like your s-

    20. JOJonny58:28

        There's a mechanical-

    21. YUYusef58:29

        Yeah.

    22. JOJonny58:30

        ... in, uh, error, isn't there?

    23. YUYusef58:30

        Yeah. Uh, I can just fit so much in and I'm sick of... It's like s-... I can make myself full enough to want to throw up if I'm allowed to have dessert, but I couldn't do it with just saving the stuff.

    24. JOJonny58:41

        (laughs)

    25. YUYusef58:41

        So I know this is like the extreme case, but imagine like this is a spectrum, that you get some, you get patients in hospital that their entire calorie intake, 3,200 calories a day, which I worked out, I think it was like, is the amount of spirit that they're drinking, and it's just that every day, so they'll just have- Spirit? ... just have vodka, 3,000 calories of vodka a day.

    26. JOJonny59:00

        No protein?

    27. YUYusef59:01

        No, no protein.

    28. JOJonny59:02

        Why, why not?

    29. YUYusef59:02

        Are they quite lean?

    30. JOJonny59:03

        Do you know? No. That's-
15. 59:28 – 1:05:43

    Off-topic detour: tasers, Tough Mudder electricity, and extreme-pain anecdotes

    1. JOJonny59:28

       Is that like the, um, what's like... Is it Narcan for getting people out of, uh, opioid-

    2. YUYusef59:35

       Oh, I see.

    3. JOJonny59:36

       ... uh, opiates, uh, ODs?

    4. YUYusef59:37

       Oh.

    5. JOJonny59:37

       That's Narcan that they use, and it's a nasal spray that just binds to the receptors but it binds, it binds harder than the drugs do.

    6. YUYusef59:44

       But that's the, like when you give that, you have to like run out the room because they'll get up and punch you.

    7. JOJonny59:49

       Really?

    8. YUYusef59:49

       They get really angry.

    9. JOJonny59:50

       Why?

    10. YUYusef59:50

        Taking the heroin away. Yeah.

    11. JOJonny59:52

        Oh, yeah. Because-

    12. YUYusef59:52

        Oh, really? Is that why? As in like if, yeah, if you-

    13. JOJonny59:55

        You've just wasted that.

    14. YUYusef59:55

        If you give the... Yeah, 'cause it just cu- it just stops the high. And they're have- they're having a great time but they're obviously in respiratory depression and you like...

    15. JOJonny1:00:01

        They can't breathe obviously.

    16. YUYusef1:00:02

        (laughs) And you give them the, um, the naloxone.

    17. JOJonny1:00:04

        You're like, "Fuck's sake, man."

    18. YUYusef1:00:05

        And they're going to go, "No, fu-..." So like you usually have to like either like tie them to the bed or something, or have a deputy-

    19. JOJonny1:00:10

        Taser, taser.

    20. YUYusef1:00:10

        ... policeman to a taser, taser.

    21. JOJonny1:00:11

        (laughs)

    22. YUYusef1:00:12

        And you like, you inject something in your body-

    23. JOJonny1:00:13

        I love how they say taser twice. I don't know why.

    24. YUYusef1:00:16

        (laughs)

    25. JOJonny1:00:16

        It just completely... Like if you have to shout taser and then you're gonna get tasered, the second taser at that point is just... (taser stuns)

    26. YUYusef1:00:24

        Well, you know it's, you know it's coming then.

    27. JOJonny1:00:26

        (laughs)

    28. YUYusef1:00:26

        Do you know what I mean? Taser, taser.

    29. JOJonny1:00:27

        'Cause it's twice.

    30. YUYusef1:00:27

        Yeah.
16. 1:05:43 – 1:06:22

    Wrap-up: resources and invitation to try sobriety intentionally

    1. CWChris Williamson1:05:43

       Uh, anyway, there's so much more that we've got to talk about for sobriety.

    2. JOJonny1:05:48

       (sniffs)

    3. CWChris Williamson1:05:48

       And we've gone off, off-topic as always. Um, but if anyone wants to find out a little bit more, if you head to sixmonthssober.com/podcast, uh, you can find out a little bit of info. Or just give me a DM if you have any in- questions or thoughts about what we've talked about, @chriswellx on all social media. Just give me a DM. I'm happy to give you a little bit of advice about how I think you could go dry for January, or if you're watching this in 2022 in the middle of June or something, just drop me a message and we'll see where we go from there. (instrumental music plays) Thanks very much, guys.

Episode duration: 1:06:33