Stephen McGinty - The World's Deepest Submarine Rescue | Modern Wisdom Podcast 351

1. 0:00 – 0:23

   Intro

   1. SMStephen McGinty0:01

      Try and imagine that you're in a phone box next to the Empire State Building, and then the Atlantic Ocean sweeps in, then all the lights go out, then you start bleeding oxygen. Then you know that rescue is at least two days away. And what you've got to do is preserve your oxygen as long as you can. (wind blowing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      Steven McGinty, welcome to the show.

   3. SMStephen McGinty0:22

      Thanks for having me.

2. 0:23 – 5:05

   World’s Deepest Submarine Rescue

   1. SMStephen McGinty0:23

   2. CWChris Williamson0:23

      We are talking about the world's deepest submarine rescue today.

   3. SMStephen McGinty0:28

      Yes, indeed. Yes, indeed. It's the subject of my new book, The Dive: Which Is the- the Untold Story of the World's Deepest Submarine Rescue. And yeah, it's an- it's an incredible story from a kind of- from the analog age of 1973. Um, it's- yeah, the- I mean, the- the- the background to it, um, is effectively that, um, just to- to get people kind of, uh, in- in the mood, it's- it's really from the time when, uh, in 1973, when, um, new phone lines were laid down and there was what's known as the CanSat, um, cable was laid between Canada and the United Kingdom. And this was- this was high technology. You know, this was a cable that allowed 1,750 phone calls to be made from the entirety of America and Canada to the UK at any one time. So this was the days when it would be like three pounds 50 a minute to make a phone call transatlantic. Um, but this was the cable that- in fact, uh, this new cable was three times what previous cables had done. Um, and- and what- what was happening at the time was that the cable had been laid, um, but these miniature submarines, this Pisces III, um, was being sent down to do a- a simple but very important job, which was, um, to find the cable and to dig a little ditch so that the cable would then settle into the ditch and then be covered over by sand and silt. The idea being that while it was on the surface, I mean this was, um, 150 miles off the coast of Cork, so it was- it was in the- the Atlantic Ocean. Um, but it was still in an area where people were fishing and the- the fear was that, um, nets would be- would go down or- or trawlers and effectively the cable could be hauled back up. And as I said in the book, you know, Murphy's Law does apply, um, within 150 miles of Ireland and the fear was that they could- they obviously needed to- to tackle that. So- so on the day, back in August 1973, um, there was two men in this- this small Pisces III, uh, mini submersible. There was, um, Roger Chapman and there was Roger Mallinson. Uh, Roger Chapman was ex, uh, Royal Navy. He was an ex, uh, nuclear submariner, um, who had been- who'd effectively had to leave the services because his- his eyesight wasn't as good as it should have been, and he moved into the- into the private sector. And at the time, um, what was interesting about it was, it was the company that ran the submarines was- was Vickers Oceanics. Um, now Vickers, uh, is anyone from Barra or Furness or anyone who knows about the great kind of, um, nautical history of Britain will know, Vickers was the- the- the titan of s- ship builders and particularly, um, you know, military and sort of, um, naval ships, um, from the- the First World War, Second World War, and into the Cold War. Um, so what they did was that they were obviously making these massive ships but they decided that, um, it was 1973, there had been the boom in the North Sea oil industry, and they decided miniature submarines were going to be a- a- an effective gadget, effectively, that the industry would have been needed. Uh, and this little miniature submarine, um, had been invented by these- these incredible Canadians. Uh, there was a guy called Alf Trice, uh, and Alf Trice, back in the 19s- early 1960s was from Vancouver and he was one of the pioneers of- of, he was a great salvage diver. Those were the days where you wore hard hats, you went down with kind of heavy steel boots, and he pioneered some of the deepest dives. I mean, they were doing bounce dives in those days, so that basically meant that you would- you would go down as many- as- as- as deep as maybe 350 feet, but you could be down there for literally two or three minutes, and then you would take these long slow ascends to the surface to avoid the bends. Alf Trice said, "Look, this isn't... there has to be a practical device. There has to be... Let's- let's develop a submarine that- that's small, that's commercial." Um, the- the French had developed the bathyscaphe, which has gone down right down to the Canomero Trench effectively, um, but he wanted to- to develop a- a effectively a- a commercial submarine. And these guys who could go into the story later on, effectively what they did was they developed, they spent the money, they- they- they pioneered and created the Pisces, um, craft. And what was interesting about Pisces, um, miniature submarine was that they tested it in Vancouver on a day that the US Navy were testing anti-submarine missiles (laughs) . And what I find fascinating about Pisces- the Pisces craft was that- that, um, they managed- they managed on its test dive, it managed to evade a missile that- that had been sent out with- with its principal job was effectively to track down, um, submar- submarines. And there's something about it that- that says that this thing was- was- was maybe indestructible, but also lucky.

3. 5:05 – 13:13

   Why Did They Need Rescuing?

   1. SMStephen McGinty5:05

      Um...

   2. CWChris Williamson5:06

      So talk us through the craft. What's a Pisces III?

   3. SMStephen McGinty5:08

      Yeah. P- pisces.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:08

      How big is it inside? What does it have?

   5. SMStephen McGinty5:10

      Yeah, it's small. Well, the way I- the way I could've, um, when I told people about this- this- this- this book was- was effectively to try and imagine, um, that you are- you and your friend are in a large phone box. That's the way to think of it. Uh, and the way that I kind of sold it to people was, imagine that you're in a small- uh, you're in a- a phone box and the phone box is sitting slap bang next to the Empire State Building, and then you watch as the Atlantic Ocean rolls in to a height ten stories above the top of the- the- the Empire State Building. Um, so that's the kind of, uh, the- the- the- I mean, the size of it was- was pretty com- compact, so five or six feet in diameter. Um, but, you know, enough to move around in, but, you know, you got- you got- you got pretty close.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:54

      All right.

   7. SMStephen McGinty5:54

      Uh...

   8. CWChris Williamson5:54

      So s- set the scene. We're on the day of this occurring.

   9. SMStephen McGinty5:58

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson5:58

       What are- what's Roger and Roger doing and why-

   11. SMStephen McGinty6:00

       Well-

   12. CWChris Williamson6:00

       ... how do they get down there?

   13. SMStephen McGinty6:02

       ... well, what they, what they did is, so, um, on the surface was at the, the kind of the mothership, which is effectively a converted, a large converted trawler called, um, the Vicar Voyager. Um, so that was on the surface and that was, um, that was operating sort of 24 hours a day. The Pisces, um, submarine was on deck and they, round about sort of one, one o'clock in the morning, um, they climbed into the submarine. Um, it was winched over the edge. It was then dropped down into the water, then it was towed out to a certain point. And, and what was interesting at the time was that what they would do is they would attach, um, like a, like a, a buoy to, uh, th- the surface, and then they would attach a rope to the submarine, and then the submarine would, would descend, um, right down to the bottom, so 15, 16 hundred feet to the bottom. And then they would, on the surface they would follow this buoy, um, as it went along. So that was, if you think about Jaws, that's effectively what it was like when they, when they fired the, the, the barrels into the, into the great white. That's effectively what they were doing with the submarine. Um, so they go down to the bottom. They spend eight or nine hours on the, on the bottom, um, digging this little trench and watching the cable drop in. And they had a tape recorder down there and, um, Roger, when he was down there, Roger Mallinson, liked to listen to... Now this was 1973, so this was the year of, um, Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon. There was all sorts of great albums released in 1973. But Roger Mallinson liked to listen to, to, to Mozart and Bach s- um, um, organ music. He always insisted that the sound, it, th- this, because of the sphere, the sound inside the submarine was, was fantastic. And, uh, that's what he used to listen to. He was kind of an ex- he is an eccentric character, Roger, a g- a great man. Um, so the two of them are down there, and then after about eight or nine hours, they, they, um, rose to the surface. Um, and then what happened was a, a, a big fluke. They get to the surface, and then the, the team that came out on, on a kind of little c- um, craft, and they tow it, they begin to tow it back in. What happens is, a, a rope is, uh, that, that's used to tow them, it knots over the back of the, the submarine, um, and th- the rope knots round a bolt on the aft sphere, which is the, which is th- the back of the submarine. And unfortunately, that's not covered. And the bolt is tightened, and the pressure's inside the, the aft sphere, it basically flips open. So suddenly they're on the surface and th- the aft sphere, which is the back of the, the submarine, but which is not connected, although it's, although it's part of the submarine, there's no, um, th- there's, it, it's solid effectively between that and the actual compartment where the men are. But what happens is a ton of water suddenly floods into the back of the, the aft sphere so the submarine is incredibly over, overweighted and immediately begins to, to tip butt first and begins to sink down. Now the key point here is that before this happened, they'd disconnected the buoy, um, so the, th- the, the buoy that told them where the submarine was had been disconnected.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:11

       The position marker's no longer there.

   15. SMStephen McGinty9:13

       Exactly. Exactly. So the submarine falls, first, first of all, it drops to 160 feet, which is where the, the, the end of the tow rope is. So the tow rope catches it, but they know there's no way the tow rope can withstand the weight. So Roger and, um, Mallinson and Roger Chapman are, are, are desperately trying t- to, to drop, to, to drop a, a kind of heavy weight that's attached to the submarine to try and lighten the load to buy themselves a bit more time. There's talk of a, of, of a diver trying to get down to f- to, to attach a, a rope to it. But then what happens is just as they've managed to get this weight off, there's a massive crack and the, the weight drops but also the rope snaps. And suddenly they're plummeting, um, right down to the bottom. And Roger talked about how the, the, the water had been driving through the engines and it sounded like a Stuka dive bomber. So they're plummeting down, um, Roger, they're trying to sort of, um, get everything out the way 'cause they know they're gonna crash land on the bottom. Um, Roger tells them to start, Roger Mallinson remembers that it's, it's just in case they, they bite their tongue off with the impact, they stuff rags in their mouth, um, and then they finally hit the bottom, bang-

   16. CWChris Williamson10:22

       What sort of speeds are they going when they do this?

   17. SMStephen McGinty10:24

       Well, it's a bit (sighs) , I mean, that's a good question. It was, i- i- initially they thought it would be like sort of, you know, 20, 30 miles an hour, but I'm not sure if it was, it was as, it was as fast as that. But it was certainly enough that they were, they were fearful that it could, it could crack open. But what happens is they smash down onto the, onto the bottom, and suddenly they're in pitch darkness. Um, and th- initially they were waiting, thinking... So they knew they were on the bottom, um, they knew they were deeper than any other submarine that had been rescued. Um, and th- the first thing they were fearful of was A, was there cracks in the submarine. Um, so they check there's no cracks in the submarine. The next thing they're fearful of is that although they know they have, they have oxygen supply down there, the key problem in a submarine is effectively not the oxygen that you're breathing in, but the carbon dioxide that you're breathing out. So they know that they have a scrubber, which is effectively like a little electric motor which scrubs out the, the oxygen. It sucks the, the oxygen in, scrubs it, takes out the carbon dioxide, and then they bleed in oxygen back into the chamber so it maintains a, a safe atmosphere effectively. But they can only do that if the batteries are working. And also they're fearful that if there's a f- f- a problem with one of the fuses or with the cables in the battery that it could ignite, um, and obviously there had been the fire on board, um, one of the Apollo missions just a few years previous to that, but that's a major concern that they could trigger a fire inside-

   18. CWChris Williamson11:49

       That they could have, one of the wires could have been broken during the fall or something like that.

   19. SMStephen McGinty11:54

       Exactly. Exactly. And it could trigger a fire inside and then th- you know, they're, they're gone.

   20. CWChris Williamson11:59

       Weren't they only a, a small distance from some huge ledge?... in the sea floor that would-

   21. SMStephen McGinty12:05

       W-

   22. CWChris Williamson12:05

       ... have dropped them down to some insane depth?

   23. SMStephen McGinty12:08

       Well, that was the con- that was the concern. They were, they were, they thought they were maybe within a half a mile or a mile or, or that, but they didn't know how far they, they, they'd drifted because that was the key point, was that there was a kind of, the current was quite strong and they were drifting as they fell. So yeah, the concern was when they were falling, they were looking at the, the, the, the depth going up 100, 200, 300, 400, 500. And they didn't know that, they knew that they were, their deepest, they were at 1,700 feet when they were operating. And they thought, had they gone deeper than that, then they would have been in, I mean, I think it would be up to around about 3,000 feet. Um, but y- you know, one break, that didn't happen, but they are, when they, they realize what's happening, they're at, they're at s- you know, 1,650 feet. Um, and I mean, that, the, the way I'd, as I said, described it was try and imagine that you're in a, a phone box next to the Empire State Building, um, and then the Atlantic Ocean sweeps in, then all the lights go out, then you start bleeding oxygen. Then you know that rescue is at least two days away, um, and what you've got to do is preserve your oxygen

4. 13:13 – 17:18

   How Long Does a Rescue Take?

   1. SMStephen McGinty13:13

      as long as you can.

   2. CWChris Williamson13:14

      Why do they know that it's at least two days away?

   3. SMStephen McGinty13:17

      Because this is the problem, and this is what, what makes the, the rescue, um, such an incredible feat. Above them is Vickers Voyager, and the only way that they can be rescued is for... A diver can't get down to that depth. So the only way is for another submarine to get down to that depth and attach a rescue rope. Now the submarines that are capable of doing that is Pi- is Pisces II, which is in the North Sea, Pisces V, which is in, um, c- Canada, and also the CURV, which is run by the US Navy, which is a remote controlled, um, s- mini- miniature submarine, which had been used a number of years before, maybe four or five years before, to pick up an, an, an A-bomb, which had, which had, um, there had been a plane crash a- above Spain. One of these bombs had dropped in, off the Spanish coast, and it was CURV that had been sent down to finally find the submarine that, that ￡. Sorry, I mean, find the bomb and bring it to the surface. So as they're sitting there, they know that the only thing that can rescue them is a submarine which is either in the North Sea, Canada, or the United States, um, and that the submarine, sorry, the, the, the safety vessel above them, the Vickers Voyager, that has to leave them, go back to Cork, um, to pick up these teams. But effectively what happens is they're on the, they're on the sea bed and then a massive international rescue is put into, into operation. Um, Vickers, uh, Oceanic at the time was, one of the general managers there was, was Peter Meservey. He was ex-navy, and he himself had been stuck in a s- in the submarine, um, 600, or sorry, 600 feet down in Vancouver during a test, um, a few years before. So he knew exactly what they were going through. Um, and at the time, what they did was they put in a, a kind of a, a rescue operation, which was belt and braces and then belts again. So they got the submarines from the North Sea, they got that on a, on a, a, a, another vessel, and they started steaming back into port. They contacted the Canadians and said, "We're gonna have to, to get you guys over." And what was great was that Al Trice, who, who devised and invented, effectively, the Pisces, uh, submarine, he was, he was actually in, uh, in London at the time, um, so he was able to take part in the rescue as well. But he contacted the t- uh, the, the, the, uh, the Canadians were contacted, and they basically swung into action. They loaded everything up onto trucks and contacted the Canadian Air Force. And the Canadian Air Force said, "Look, don't worry about the f- paperwork. We've got a Hercules aircraft ready for you. Um, just whenever you can get to the, the, the airport, we'll have this Hercules ready."

   4. CWChris Williamson15:58

      Didn't the... What's... Isn't it a sub smash or something? Wasn't there like some-

   5. SMStephen McGinty16:01

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:02

      ... huge red button that somebody pressed that marshals the entire world's forces-

   7. SMStephen McGinty16:05

      It-

   8. CWChris Williamson16:05

      ... to try and help?

   9. SMStephen McGinty16:06

      Yeah, yeah. There was a, that was the- the Royal Navy, the sub smash, which is basically if there's a submarine in, in, in trouble and all help is available. But effectively what, what was interesting was it was the, it was the, um, Vickers, the Canadians, and the Americans. And the Americans were all based in San Diego, so they did the same thing. They rushed to, to the raid, loaded up, um, two, um, Hercules aircrafts, and within, it was probably, I think it was within 10, 12 hours, um, you've got these herc- these Hercules aircraft, one flying from San Diego, one flying from, um, Canada, and the other team arriving in from, into Cork. So then what you have is, uh, Vickers, the, the Venture, uh, on the, on the surface has to leave them. Um, another fishing vessel comes and stays on the point, because the point is they don't know, they, they, as I said in the book, they know roughly where they are, i.e. they know there's a haystack, they just don't know where the needle is. Um, so the, the, the vessel's head back to Cork-

   10. CWChris Williamson17:05

       Because they'd lost that buoy.

   11. SMStephen McGinty17:07

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson17:07

       They'd lost the locator buoy.

   13. SMStephen McGinty17:08

       Exactly.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:08

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   15. SMStephen McGinty17:09

       So they had to, to, um, head back to Cork, and, um, that's effectively where the, the, the Voyager was, was laden with the, with the two submarines.

5. 17:18 – 37:55

   Rescue Process for Pisces 3

   1. SMStephen McGinty17:18

   2. CWChris Williamson17:18

      So back down in the submarine, what do the Rogers do now? They've, they land there and then they decide to test the batteries and-

   3. SMStephen McGinty17:26

      They-

   4. CWChris Williamson17:26

      What are the resources they need to balance? What do they do now?

   5. SMStephen McGinty17:28

      Yeah. Yeah, well, effectively what they do is they, they know that, um, the, the scrubber's operating, so that they know they can take the carbon, um, sorry, the carbon dioxide out the, out the atmosphere and, um, replace it with kind of oxygen. So that's okay. Um, they've got to keep the batteries going. And they know that initially the, the way it was op- the way that they operated was the oxygen they had down there, if they were acting normally, chatting, moving about, that would probably last sort of 30, 35 hours. But the, the estimate was that if they just lay down, remained as silent as possible, remained as calm as possible, they could extend that till about 65, 70 hours, which was the kind of-... roughly when the operation to Hope- I mean, if they could get there, they figured they could get there within maybe 50 hours. So it was incredibly stressful, um, and incredibly tense. Um-

   6. CWChris Williamson18:19

      In a time when they need to specifically be as calm-

   7. SMStephen McGinty18:22

      Calm.

   8. CWChris Williamson18:22

      ... as possible, low heart rate-

   9. SMStephen McGinty18:24

      Absolutely.

   10. CWChris Williamson18:24

       ... low breathing rates.

   11. SMStephen McGinty18:25

       Absolutely. Uh, and, oh, Roger Mallinson always said that, that he, if he had to be stuck in a submarine with anyone, he was so glad it was Roger Chapman, because Roger Chapman was ex-Navy. And both of them were terrified, but both of them had that stiff British upper lip, which is, "I'm terrified, but I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine, and I'm gonna operate as if I'm fine." Um-

   12. CWChris Williamson18:46

       So they, they moved-

   13. SMStephen McGinty18:47

       ... where they were, they were internalizing it.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:48

       Yeah, yeah. They moved the entire sort of, they feng shued the whole internal compartment around so that they only needed to move a tiny amount to check on-

   15. SMStephen McGinty18:57

       Yeah. Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson18:58

       ... the, the few different bits and pieces.

   17. SMStephen McGinty18:59

       Yeah. They, they, they moved the... What they could effectively, because of the, the way they, the way the submarine had landed, which is kind of butt first into the sand, they had to move the kind of benches, um, a- around, and then they reconfigured it effectively so that they could fit... They, they moved the minimum amount as possible, um, so that it was just as, as easy as possible for them.

   18. CWChris Williamson19:19

       How are they communicating with the surface?

   19. SMStephen McGinty19:21

       Well, there's a, there's, there's an underwater telephone, um, which is effectively what they, what they used. And what was interesting about it was, I mean, it was very staticky, uh, and very kind of... You, you could hear, but what was fascinating was that there was a lot of porpoises and dolphins in the area. And the dolphins would, would, would, would squeak, and they would... As, as Roger Mallinson said, you would lose messages to the dolphins because, you know, they would be making this kind of noise. And he didn't mind it so much 'cause he loved the dolphins. Um, but they... That was another, another element of it. But they could, they could... Yeah, it was effectively like a, an underwater radio, um, that was, was operating.

   20. CWChris Williamson19:55

       So they had a timer thing, right? They were doing something every half an hour.

   21. SMStephen McGinty19:59

       Yeah, yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson19:59

       Tell us about that.

   23. SMStephen McGinty20:00

       Yeah, exact- Well, effectively, what they had, what they... The, the, the p- the best practice was effectively to operate the scrubber every 30 minutes, um, so that it would take out the kind of carbon dioxide from the, from the atmosphere. Um, but what they did was - and they had a timer to do that, so that they would either, if they fell a- asleep or they would always do it, the, the timer would go off - but effectively, what they did was they... In order to maintain the, the, the, the scrubber so that the chemicals that they could only replace a certain amount of time, um, in order to, to extend that, they started pushing it further and further. So what... I- in an ideal situation, they would do it every half an hour, but sometimes they would do it, they would go an hour, 90 minutes without doing it in order to kind of, uh, maintain the resources as long as possible.

   24. CWChris Williamson20:43

       What were the effects of being down there? 'Cause I imagine cold, condensation-

   25. SMStephen McGinty20:48

       Cold, condens- Well, the, the, the, the, the, the, the food supplies were very limited. They had, like, one sandwich. They had a tin of Corona lemonade. They had a flask, half a flask of c- of coffee. They had some ships biscuits. Um, and, and that was it.

   26. CWChris Williamson21:01

       What about water?

   27. SMStephen McGinty21:02

       They had no water.

   28. CWChris Williamson21:02

       No water?

   29. SMStephen McGinty21:03

       They had no water. Which, yeah, which is incredible. But yeah, so what they started doing was that the condensation that built up on the edge of the submarine, they would run their hands down that, and they would kind of dab their lips, um, that way. So it was, um, it, it was, it was a tough environment.

   30. CWChris Williamson21:18

       Half a canister of coffee. A... Was it, like, a cheese and plum sandwich or something?
6. 37:55 – 46:55

   Physiological State of the Divers

   1. SMStephen McGinty37:55

      And this is on Christmas day morning.

   2. CWChris Williamson37:55

      What are Roger and Roger like at this stage? At what sort of physiological, uh, state are they in?

   3. SMStephen McGinty38:01

      Well, they're exhausted. They're, they're stressed. They're imagining the worst. B- uh, Mallinson is a, is a, is a, well, both are, they're both amazing guys, but, you know, um, Mallinson really knows the submarine, and he's, he's constantly overthinking what they should be doing and trying to second-guess it. And Chapman's the one who's trying to sort of, um, you know, calm them down just saying, "Look," Chapman's actually says, "There's nothing we can do here but effectively try and be silent and breathe as little as possible." Whereas Mallinson is effectively trying to second-guess and make suggestions about what they can do and really try and work at it. So when it comes to, to, to time to lift the submarine, they are both internalizing it, but as, as they admitted afterwards, terrified because in their heads, they can't quite grasp what the toggle is. They think it's a hook. And they, they're constantly worried that, like a fish on a hook, the fish is gonna come off the, off the hook. And initially what happens is when they start to lift, it, the submarine's, it's being dragged along the surface, um, and it's only after a certain point that it starts to lift up. And-

   4. CWChris Williamson39:04

      It's until it gets to the plumb straight line-

   5. SMStephen McGinty39:06

      Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

   6. CWChris Williamson39:07

      ... right below where they were just. Yeah.

   7. SMStephen McGinty39:08

      It's, it's lift, it's lifted up. And the, as they said later on, the worst part of the entire experience was the lift, was those final two hours, because what happened was that it was being lifted from a different ship this time. It transferred over to a kind of larger vessel that was going to sort of w- with what was actually operating, where, where Curve, the Americans had been operating from. And what they did was they kind of moved over, um, to the, the, uh, the John Cabot. That was it. It was the Canadian Coast Guard. It was an icebreaker that they were moving off from, that they, what, that they, or decided to, to, to operate the lift from. And what happened was that because of the stormy weather, this icebreaker was constantly being forced up and down 20, 30 feet because of the waves. So if you imagine you're fishing and you've got a fish at the end of the hook, but that f- that fish is a submarine, it's constantly going up and down, and it's pivoting as it goes up. So it was like a kind of, a really violent rollercoaster for them. And they're terrified because every move, every motion of the submarine, they're smashing about inside, but they also think that the hooks are gonna come off and they're gonna plummet down to the bottom. Also, communication's breaking up. So at one point they're shouting for them to stop the lift. They can't get it to stop. The other guys think they want to continue. There's a lot of confusion. And then they stop at one point when the Curve, which is the kind of American system, that submarine has, has, has wrapped around at one point the Pisces so that they're lifting both at once. Um, it all gets very confusing and very kind of stressful. But at one point, um, they stop, and that's because they get to about 120 feet from the surface. And Messervy decides, "We've got to get another line on there. O- once it gets to the surface, it's, it's gonna get heavier." So there's a great si- si- situation where they send down the divers to try and attach another, another rope to it. And, uh, Bob, um ... Hang on. Who was it? Bob Hanley. Bob Hanley is sent down as a diver with one of his colleagues with a hook. And the idea is, as he described it, is trying to land on a bucking bronco. So the submarine itself is thrashing about, moving up and down, and he's got to time his dive so that he can land on it and, and effectively straddle it like you would a bucking bronco while it's, it's moving up and down with the waves at the top. And he's holding a, a, a, the rope with this kind of, um, hook that he's trying to sort of wage ... No. In fact, that's not it. What it is is it's a, it's a, a, a, a really thick rope attached to a U-curve with a bolt attached to it, and the bolt's attached to a string. And what he has to do is he has to get the, the U-bend of the, of the metal sort of stanchion effectively under, um, the top of the submarine. Then he has to screw in a bolt.

   8. CWChris Williamson42:03

      Like, like a carabiner-

   9. SMStephen McGinty42:04

      Exactly.

   10. CWChris Williamson42:04

       ... to sort of close off the opening. Yeah.

   11. SMStephen McGinty42:06

       Exactly. Exactly. Um, and all while underwater 120 feet on a submarine that's thrashing about. And it's an incredibly tense moment, but he manages to get it on, and, um, they effectively send down another rope. Um, and so we're in a position where there's all these three ropes pulling up, and finally, um, they make it to the surface with, uh, yeah, (laughs) a, a very tense moment.

   12. CWChris Williamson42:32

       Okay. So they get to the surface, and then there's still complications then, right? Like getting the, the hatch open and ...

   13. SMStephen McGinty42:38

       Yeah. Yeah. Mallinson always remembers it, that he just, they, they were, they, they bled in more oxygen. You know, to keep

   14. CWChris Williamson42:43

       Oh, didn't they ... When did they eat the sandwich?

   15. SMStephen McGinty42:46

       Well, a- a- good question. I think they ate it at some point, but they certainly, they celebrated with the... They cracked open the, the, the Corona lemonade as soon as they were found. That was their deal was that they wouldn't open the lemonade until they were found. So they cracked open the, the lemonade then and as, as Mallinson said, remember, because of everything that had been going on, it can taste like shit. You know, but your shit never tasted so, so sweet-

   16. CWChris Williamson43:08

       (laughs)

   17. SMStephen McGinty43:08

       ... um, given the, given the conditions they were in. Um, but when they got to the surface, they were, uh, uh... Mallinson remembers it very vividly. He, he just, he couldn't get the, the actual, um, hatch open, so he was kinda kicking it, um, and lying on the bottom and, and kicking the, the, the surface of the-

   18. CWChris Williamson43:25

       Well, even though-

   19. SMStephen McGinty43:26

       ... of the hatch.

   20. CWChris Williamson43:26

       ... even though they're at the surface, this doesn't give them any more oxygen or any more CO2 scrubbing, right? You could be sealed in on-

   21. SMStephen McGinty43:32

       Yeah. Exactly.

   22. CWChris Williamson43:33

       ... the top of Everest and it would be precisely the same as being at the bottom of the ocean.

   23. SMStephen McGinty43:36

       Exactly. Exact- exactly. Exactly. They've gotta get that hatch open to get fresh air in. Finally, bang, the kind of hatches, the hatches open, and as there's a lovely moment where, where effectively they said that they had the, the, the first argument of, of, of the whole time they were down there w- was then when the hatch was opened. Mallinson was the pilot and Mallinson's argument was that he should be the last person out because he's pilot, he's responsible for the craft. Chapman (laughs) is much wiser because they're in a storm, you know, the, the waves are thrashing about, and as Chapman, um, says to Mallin- uh, says to Roger, "Roger, you can't swim." So that was his argument that he... that, that, that, that, that, that Mallinson should be the first person out of the submarine on the grounds that if water floods in, at least Chapman, um, can swim because Mallinson's never, never learned to swim. (laughs) Um, so eventually they finally get, they get them out, um, and, you know, it's, yeah. They, they, they... And what, what's very touching is that I... when I was just reading the book to people and I was rising by the book, what... They'd been rescued by this idea of the brotherhood of the sea. All these other vessels had come to their aid. Men had come from Canada, from California, from the North Sea, from Ireland. Everyone had pulled together and for this, a three-day period, the kind of world was waiting, you know, with bated breath to find out could these men be, be, be, be rescued. It was akin to the situation a couple of years back with the, w- with the, the school party trapped in the cave, um, in, I think Thailand it was, um, where you're waiting to see could they, could they be rescued. And, and, and they were rescued. But for the men on board who toiled for so long on Vickers Voyager, they were on the, o- on the edge of the ship looking out, and when they saw the surf- the sub hit the surface and finally see these guys climb out, you know, there was... people just burst into tears. I mean, these were men who'd never... you know, as I've said, their eyes had been parched for decades, you know, they just didn't cry about anything. But it was just the overwhelming emotion of, of willing something to happen and for so many things to go wrong, um, they finally, they finally got them to the surface and it's... And that was part of the reason why I wanted to write the book was, was obviously there was the experience of the men on board, but it was also to, to capture all these characters who'd been... who had been dangerously lost to history. You know, like kind of Al Trice, like Ted Carter, Bob Hanley, all these people who... you know, guys who'd, who'd, um, who'd devised the, the, the toggles. Um, and, you know, when you speak to Ted Carter today, I mean, he's very blasé about it. He just said he helped, you know, but it's... you, you... they did, they did remarkable things. Uh, Larry Brady in, in, in, in California. So that was it. It was everyone had pulled together to, to pull off this incredible rescue. And when you consider everything that had gone wrong, even to the point where at one point they needed new rope and the, the, the Navy who were out there, um, ferried rope across, um, on a kind of wire basket effectively underneath a helicopter, but they misjudged the weight of the rope. So as soon as the helicopter took off and started flying toward, uh, Voyager, um, they could see the helicopter immediately start be- being dragged down to the, to, to the sea. So they suddenly... the, the helicopter pilot had to jettison the rope and, um, suddenly the rope's tumbling down and Al Trice is on the deck of Voyager with Peter Messereve looking out at the rope they're supposed to get, and suddenly the rope's just bobbing across the, the surface of the Atlantic. And Al Trice had a motto that he used to, used to say, and his attitude was, "Well, if it was easy, everyone would do it." And this was a

7. 46:55 – 49:38

   How Far Away From a Bad Ending?

   1. SMStephen McGinty46:55

      rescue that was far from easy.

   2. CWChris Williamson46:57

      How close to the wire was it with resources and oxygen and that stuff?

   3. SMStephen McGinty47:01

      Well, it, it's complicated because, because afterwards, if you... if you see the... there's little footage of them on YouTube talking about when they finally touched down on, on, um, on, on Cork, and they're very stiff upper lip British. "Everything's fine. Oh, we've plenty of resources. It was very comfortable at one point," they say, on this... on, on the bottom, uh, "It was very comfortable." Um, and the report was that they could have gone for a number of hours afterwards. However, the people I spoke to, um, who, who had firsthand experience of it, one of them said that it was his job to, to inspect the submarine when it was finally brought back to Cork, and he was on bo- on... he went into the submarine with the, the kind of US kind of, um, um, authority. His job is to monitor safety for submarines. And he said... he remembers two things very vividly. One was the stench of the place.

   4. CWChris Williamson47:48

      (laughs)

   5. SMStephen McGinty47:49

      Uh, the, the stench of the submarine. And the second thing was that when they turned on the oxygen, just nothing came out. His attitude was that they were just absolutely down to the wire.

   6. CWChris Williamson47:59

      Minutes.

   7. SMStephen McGinty48:00

      Yeah, yeah. You know, we'll, we'll never know exactly how much. It's, it's, it's too, too, too... it's too... it's far back to, to tell. But his attitude was that there was... there was nothing left.

   8. CWChris Williamson48:09

      Yeah. The video of the Rogers talking about it, wasn't... doesn't one of them say, "What was the worst part of it?" And he said, "Coming back up."

   9. SMStephen McGinty48:15

      Yes. Yeah. And I think that's... because a lot of what they say is very much, you know, that kind of stiff upper, upper British lip saying it's, it's fine and you have to kind of... knowing what... having put together the book, knowing what preceded it, we can now understand why that was, because it was... I mean, they're being rescued, but it took two hours to get them to the surface, and they were being smashed about for a good chunk of that. And when they weren't being smashed about, they were hanging like a, like a fish on a hook, unaware what was happening. And all the time, they know they're at the very limit of, of, of what oxygen is left. So it's that thing where when you look at all the components that had to be in place for them to be rescued-... the Curve being flown over from California, the Pisces flying over from Halifax, the team coming over from the North Sea. And when you look at all the things that went wrong, you, all you have to think about is another link in that chain being delayed or another problem or something that, you know, like, imagine it took, it was four hours to fix the Curve, um, electrics to get the sub down. Imagine it took four and a half or five. I mean, they were that close because it wasn't that case of it took a long time to get, for the rescue to begin and then the rescue went really smoothly. (laughs) Literally everything that could have gone wrong with the rescue did go wrong, but they still managed to get them up. And that was, it's that kind of, it's that great line from Winston Churchill, "Never, ever, ever give up." And I think that, this rescue's a

8. 49:38 – 51:02

   What Did the Team Do After?

   1. SMStephen McGinty49:38

      testament to that.

   2. CWChris Williamson49:39

      What did the guys do after this? Did they go back to the sea? Did any-

   3. SMStephen McGinty49:43

      Yeah, yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson49:43

      ... of them descend again?

   5. SMStephen McGinty49:44

      Yeah, both of them within, within a few weeks, they were, they were back in the submarine.

   6. CWChris Williamson49:48

      The lads.

   7. SMStephen McGinty49:49

      Um-

   8. CWChris Williamson49:49

      Such lads.

   9. SMStephen McGinty49:50

      Yeah, absolutely. Well, Mallinson's attitude was, you know, he, he, he, you know, there was, there was errors, but he, he wanted to, to, to get back on, into the submarine. And Chapman did it for a spell, but then Chapman used his experiences to set up a company that, that, that developed, um, rescue for submarines. So, so Chapman went on to, to, to take his experience and turn it into a very successful business, um, that was involved and that, that was called upon, but not used, tragically, for the Kursk disaster, but then was called upon to, to rescue another, um, Russian submarine, um, you know, in the, you know, I think it was 10, 12 years ago. So, um, yeah, he had an amazing experience from it. In fact, it-

   10. CWChris Williamson50:27

       Commercialize his-

   11. SMStephen McGinty50:28

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson50:29

       ... catastrophe.

   13. SMStephen McGinty50:29

       Yeah, absolutely. But what was, what was very s- very special about it was the, the, the bond between the two remained up until, I mean, um, Roger Chapman sadly died, um, a year ago in January, I think it was. Um, but up until that, up until the, the, the September before, on the day of the rescue, Mallinson would phone him at the same, at the, at the exact moment that they were rescued just after one o'clock on, on the anniversary. And then afterward, at a certain point, they would meet for lunch on that day, um, every year. So there, there was a kind of very close bond that existed as a consequence of, of the rescue and their experiences

9. 51:02 – 56:09

   Meeting the Team

   1. SMStephen McGinty51:02

      down there in the deep.

   2. CWChris Williamson51:03

      Did you get to speak to them?

   3. SMStephen McGinty51:05

      Um, I got to speak to Mallinson a lot, um, but sadly, Roger Chapman had, had died before I began researching the book. Um, but I spoke to his widow, June Chapman, who was very supportive, and his, and his two sons were very supportive. And, and I interviewed Mallinson a lot for the book, along with the, as many of the rescuers who, who were, who were still alive. So, it was a great pleasure to, to, to speak to them and to also to feel like, to try and effectively illuminate this story, which has been, been largely forgotten, but it is an incredible tale of, of, of heroism, and also that element of, of, of what you can do if, if a team pulls together.

   4. CWChris Williamson51:36

      There's something sort of specially nostalgic and kind of beautiful about it because, as you say, it was the analog age, probably just toward the end of it. But if, uh-

   5. SMStephen McGinty51:46

      Well-

   6. CWChris Williamson51:46

      Yeah, go ahead.

   7. SMStephen McGinty51:47

      No, it's, it's interesting you say that. When I was researching the book, I discovered that, um, this was '73 when the Cantat cable w- w- was laid, and as I said, 175 phone calls could be made at any point. But in that same year, the first mobile phone call was made, um, it was by, by one developer to another, to his competitor, effectively, to say that he was, they, they were ahead of the game. And, and, and it's one of these regrets, actually, I didn't use it as a footnote somewhere, because it was effective. I just liked the touch of that. So there was, it was, it was an analog age, but it was also the year that, that feature, I mean, the future's birthed every year, effectively. But there was that kind of nice touch. But yeah, I mean, it was, this was, this is men in boiler suits with T-squares, um, trying to fix things. So, y- I mean, even the device, the toggle, that, that rescued them, you know, that was designed on paper with, with T-squares and manufactured in a, in a few hours. In fact, and a ni- a nice touch that would appeal to Neil and comedy, when they went over to the fabrication unit, having designed this rescue toggle, they spoke to the foreman and said, "We've got to make this build." And he looked and said, "Yeah, look, we can start it next week." Um, (laughs) and he said, "No, no. W- we need to..." So he put them on to Leonard, uh, Redshaw, and Redshaw, in, in no uncertain terms, told them that it would be made today, in fact, this afternoon. And they said, "Well, why didn't you say?" So they, they made it in, in the space of a few hours.

   8. CWChris Williamson53:04

      Didn't the Queen contact the guys at one point?

   9. SMStephen McGinty53:07

      (sighs) Well, that was the great thing. They get a message, um, garbled down from the phone that, that Queen Elizabeth is, is, is thinking well of you. Now, and this was very moving to them because, um, Chapman had served in the Royal Navy. So you serve, you serve Her Majesty, effectively, and Mallinson was also deeply moved this idea that at, at this hour, their kind of, you know, darkest hour, the Queen, the Monarch, you know, Britannia, effectively, was thinking well of them, and it kept them going. But it was only until they got to the surface a couple of days later that what it was was it was the QE2 had been steaming past and had offered to assist, but that assistance wasn't required. They said, "Look, wish the men well." So, (laughs) so-

   10. CWChris Williamson53:47

       So it wasn't the Queen at all.

   11. SMStephen McGinty53:49

       No, it wasn't the Queen. It was the QE2. Um, but, but the, the, the message that they got and that helped sustain them was that it was the Queen herself that, that was, that was wishing them well. So it was best they didn't know.

   12. CWChris Williamson54:01

       I'm sure that she would have done as well. Yeah, the-

   13. SMStephen McGinty54:02

       I think so.

   14. CWChris Williamson54:03

       ... the, the video of the guys coming out and the interview with them afterward is peak hard British guy from sort of the mid-1900s. You know, it was, it was mostly fine down there. I, I, we could have survived for another, you know, another day or so.

   15. SMStephen McGinty54:19

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson54:19

       It was-

   17. SMStephen McGinty54:20

       Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's, it's, um, it's, I suppose that's what's fascinating about it is, that kind of age where, um, you, you mean okay, what was interesting about it is they both gave quite moving interviews, one to The Telegraph and one to The Mail about a week or so later, but it was that... It's not the days where, um, people, it's effectively kind of the cameras brought out, please emote and please emote copiously. Um, it wasn't like that at all. It was, it was how... It was that very British thing of, um, "I've gone through the greatest trauma of my life, but how do I minimize it?" Um, to-

   18. CWChris Williamson54:51

       'Twas but a scratch. Yeah, exactly.

   19. SMStephen McGinty54:53

       Yes, yes. Um, but that's the benefit of, of, of, of putting together a book like The Dive, whereby you can, you can lay out... It's only effectively when you, you lay it out chronologically in as much detail as I've been able to do, where you show-... or everything going wrong and, and then what's put in, in, in place to, to rectify that. And, and even remarkable people, like, as I say, kind of, um, Ted Carter. I spoke to him about it. So his- I mean, he was down in the submarine, everything had gone wrong. His, his colleagues' lives are effectively literally in his hands because he's the man who's, who's manipulating this toggle and he has to get it in. And I asked him about the pressure of that. And, and the book I refer to the fact that, I mean, there's, there's like 50 tons of pressure pr- bearing down on the submarine, but internally there should be the same amount bearing down on him. But, uh, he was very blase (laughs) about it. You know, he just said, "Nah, I'm not..." I- i- it's some people are just built that way, that they're very under, under... at times of great crisis they are, they can be very relaxed and very focused. And he was one of those kind of characters whereby he had a job to do, he managed to get it done.

   20. CWChris Williamson55:58

       Right man for the job.

   21. SMStephen McGinty55:59

       And helps... Yeah. And saved, and saved his colleague's life along with the, the rest of the team.

   22. CWChris Williamson56:03

       Amazing, man. That's such a fascinating story. I think you've done an awesome job with the book. That'll be linked, The Dive will be linked on

10. 56:09 – 57:19

    Where to Find Stephen

    1. CWChris Williamson56:09

       Amazon below. Any other bits if people want to learn more about this?

    2. SMStephen McGinty56:13

       Yeah. Well, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, just buy it. Bu- buy The Dive. Uh, that, that, that's the best way to do it. Um, but, I mean, it's a, it is a fascinating story. And, and also what I, I was glad because... and also in the book, I tell the story of... well, there's a, a section where I talk about the development of submarines. But also the, the laying of the cable back in the kind of 18- 1850s and '60s. Um, th- this great kind of nautical journey to try and l- connect the old world and the new is quite an, uh, an amazing story. And they were this little part of it further down the line. But it's, no, it's... I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm... I hope people will read it because it's, it is one of those situations whereby, um, it's just the ability of people not giving in and, uh, and a team of, of, a team of men, uh, rescuing their colleagues.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:55

       Beautiful story. Stephen McGinty, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks so much for your time.

    4. SMStephen McGinty56:59

       Nope. Thank you very much.

    5. CWChris Williamson57:01

       Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few months. And don't forget to subscribe. It makes me very happy indeed. Peace.

Episode duration: 57:20