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Testosterone, Bodybuilding & Confidence - More Plates More Dates

Derek is a YouTuber, founder of Gorilla Mind and a fitness expert. The Liver King has seen one of the fastest rises to internet fame ever. Documenting his ancestral lifestyle generated millions of followers and hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for his businesses, but it turns out that the physique he displayed in his content was built on massive amounts of performance enhancing drugs, despite him denying it on many occasions. Expect to learn what Derek thinks of the Liver King's apology video, just how extreme the number of drugs he was talking were, whether there is more information still to come out, the risks for anyone of taking TRT, Derek's thoughts on NoFap, how to develop confidence when approaching someone you like and much more... Sponsors: Get 10% discount on all Gymshark’s products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code: MW10) Get $100 off plus an extra 15% discount on Qualia Mind at https://neurohacker.com/modernwisdom (use code MW15) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and Free Shipping from Athletic Greens at https://athleticgreens.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Extra Stuff: Subscribe to Derek's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@MorePlatesMoreDates Follow Derek on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/moreplatesmoredates/ Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #liverking #derek #moreplatesmoredates - 00:00 Intro 01:11 How the Public Reacted to the Documentary 10:47 What Information did Derek Hold Back? 15:42 Thoughts on the Apology Video 19:55 What Drugs was Liver King on? 30:32 The Future for Liver King 39:31 Health Risks of Taking TRT 48:45 Should We Be Worried About Men’s Testosterone Levels? 1:02:46 Derek’s Opinion of Andrew Huberman 1:13:15 What Chris Learned from an E-Sports Coach 1:17:28 Health Impacts of Modern Bodybuilding 1:24:45 Derek’s Opinion on NoFap 1:29:26 Risks of Going Too Long without Ejaculating 1:34:34 How To Gain Confidence Around Girls 1:42:55 Where to Find Derek - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Derek (More Plates More Dates)guestChris Williamsonhost
Dec 5, 20221h 43mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:11

    Intro

    1. DD

      There will be a subset of people who very much feel that it was a necessary evil potentially to get the message out. Sometimes when I think about the whole picture, it's just mind-blowing that this is even a thing. It seems like a, like a movie almost. It's just absurd. (wind blows)

    2. CW

      Derek, welcome to the show.

    3. DD

      Thanks for having me, dude.

    4. CW

      You broke the internet this week, man.

    5. DD

      (laughs)

    6. CW

      What the fuck?

    7. DD

      No, wild. Yeah, absolutely wild.

    8. CW

      Has there ever been this much attention on you, do you think?

    9. DD

      Um, I don't know, to be honest. Um, I, I feel like the thing is so much bigger than me at this point that I don't even know if it's necessarily attention on me or just the situation at large, but-

    10. CW

      That's a really, really good point.

    11. DD

      Yeah. So it's ha- it's tough to say, but probably not. Maybe when I went on Rogan last year, I think it got a decent amount of attention, but I don't know.

    12. CW

      How long have you been working on this?

    13. DD

      (clears throat) Um, as far as, like, the actual editing and putting together, you know, the script and whatnot, um, I think in totality, it was, like, a month probably. Yeah.

    14. CW

      That's a big project.

    15. DD

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      Fuck.

    17. DD

      Especially for a guy who usually just films off the cuff and just talks, you know, whatever comes to mind kind of thing.

    18. CW

      Yes. So-

    19. DD

      Typically.

  2. 1:11 – 10:47

    How the Public Reacted to the Documentary

    1. DD

    2. CW

      ... you've put this hour-long documentary out that is talking about emails that you've received explaining what the Liver King was taking in terms of his steroid cycle, in terms of some bits of blood work and health markers and all the rest of it that you've done from that. Obviously, you've been with this content for a long time.

    3. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      And then you release it into the world. You know how you reacted to it, and then you're gonna make predictions about how the public's going to react. What are your thoughts on the reaction to this information so far?

    5. DD

      Um, I think it has been (sighs) pretty... it went more viral than I was expecting, but the overall response I feel was pretty aligned with what I was expecting in terms of there was gonna be a subset of people who, no matter what happens, they were still, you know, hardcore supporters of the guy regardless, and certain individuals who kind of knew what was gonna happen at some point anyways and had a feeling that this kind of an information was gonna come out, and, like, very much me as well. Like, even before this stuff came to light, I was like, "Somebody fucking has this, for sure." Like, he's definitely put this out there in s- in some context to somebody, and, like, as he gets... I don't know... gains more notoriety, like, somebody's going to feel, I don't know, obliged to put out the truth, I would imagine. So, I don't know, it just felt like a matter of time. And I think the, the general response was fairly expected, just far more viral than I ever anticipated.

    6. CW

      Well, that's riding off the back of his virality.

    7. DD

      Yeah.

    8. CW

      Right? You know, he's been one of the biggest guests on pretty much every big podcast over the last year or so, the Logan Pauls, the H3H3s, et cetera.

    9. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    10. CW

      He's been everywhere. Uh, and on that vehemently denied, like, absolutely denied. What is it that he says PEDs are? Prioritize, execute-

    11. DD

      (laughs)

    12. CW

      ... and determinism or something?

    13. DD

      Uh, dominate maybe?

    14. CW

      Dom- some-

    15. DD

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      Anyway. Uh, just outright stonewall. "I haven't taken..." "I don't need these."

    17. DD

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      "You can achieve this body if you follow these nine ancestral tenants." And I think that there's some sense of, like, um, vindication-

    19. DD

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      ... that people have when, uh, hypocrisy gets called out like that, and I think that's one of the big reasons. You've got all of this... all of these waves of exposure, and then bink, there's undeniable proof.

    21. DD

      Yeah, it's, uh... Hopefully, it doesn't lead to a skewing. Like, the thing I worry about is there are individuals who are genetic anomalies who do work their asses off and are actually natural, and typically, when something like this... Like, it's not like this is an everyday thing, but when something like this happens, it very much frames the... I would imagine the layman perspective to assume that any good physique might then equate to hormone use and then, oh, I s- you know... The, the limitations on what they think is possible, the bar drops a little bit.

    22. CW

      Mm.

    23. DD

      Which I'm sure that is partially what fueled his, like, mentality to justify this whole thing, is he would... Like, obviously, he has his own, you know, monetary incentive and upside on that and whatnot, but also from... One of the points he would always make is, um, self-limiting beliefs and, you know, you're putting yourself in a box and this and that. Like, there are individuals who could otherwise do great things without having to take drugs. It's not something that you need to do to have a great physique that's, um, you know, going to be seen as a, I don't know, top-tier representation of health and fitness. So, hopefully, that message doesn't get lost in this whole debacle.

    24. CW

      Oh, that everybody assumes the only way that you could get into-

    25. DD

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      ... being in remotely good shape would be to take PEDs-

    27. DD

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      ... because this guy did.

    29. DD

      Yeah. 'Cause I think that's, like, one of the downsides of the natty or not discussion can kind of skew into that. Like, obviously, having realistic expectations is great, but at the same time, you don't want to put yourself in a, I don't know, like, in a box where you think that every single good physique out there or anything that is representative of elite, I don't know, the physical representation of, you know, elite tier body composition is, "Oh, definitely drugs, I might as well not even try."

    30. CW

      There's two things going on with natty or nots, I think. On one side, it is, um, trying not to dissuade people who think the only way I can achieve a good physique is to use PEDs.

  3. 10:47 – 15:42

    What Information did Derek Hold Back?

    1. CW

      is there any more information that you didn't include in the video? Was there anything that you felt was too much to hold back?

    2. DD

      Uh, blood work, I felt like it was a very long and elaborate dissection, and I felt like it kinda just was a little bit... It wasn't, like, redundant 'cause it had, I guess, new information, but it was more for the nerds and the guys who were highly interested in that stuff, and, um, it just didn't feel like it added more after the first video to put it out when I feel like the communicated message was already sufficient to kind of achieve the, I don't know, kind of show exactly what had happened from inception to now. I don't necessarily think that going down the complete scientific dismantlement of, like, a blood test panel was going to be something that added more to the conversation other than being, I don't know, highly confusing or otherwise maybe even boring or, I don't know. Like, it just didn't seem like it was going to add more to... that was, uh, worthwhile to pile on at that point.

    3. CW

      I wonder whether there's more, uh, secrets about his past, his business practices, drug use.

    4. DD

      There's zero chance that there's not more stuff out there with... Like, there's no way he... I was the only person he tried to reach out to or this other coach. There's definitely more out there for sure.

    5. CW

      That's the concern, right? That it's the same reason why, um, telling rumors about somebody to another third-party friend-

    6. DD

      Mm.

    7. CW

      ... is always dangerous, because it's not just about the fact that you're telling the rumors, but it's the interpretation of the third-party friend about you being the sort of person that tells rumors.

    8. DD

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      Right? This is the concern that, that no one ever really thinks about when they start gossiping. It's like, you get known as a gossip-In the same way now, Liver King has been the most brazen, confident, full-fledged liar-

    10. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      ... on the biggest platforms in the world. What else does that suggest that he can do?

    12. DD

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      Like, the ambient anxiety that he must have-

    14. DD

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... of just whatever it is, all of the business practices are under scrutiny now. Everyone's got eyes on him. Um, yeah, I- it wouldn't surprise me if there's more to come.

    16. DD

      Yeah. Yeah, I- th- that's why I was kind of surprised his apology wasn't just a concise and full-fledged admittance of what happened and just, that's it. It had, like, hedges in it and kinda had side tangents that might've been interpreted as kinda like cop-outs, a little bit.

    17. CW

      What did you think about the apology video?

    18. DD

      Um, I thought it was very well crafted, and I think the- his supporters very much appreciated it, and a lot of them were like, "We don't care. Fuck it. It doesn't matter." But I do think that some of the stuff in there that was mentioned was a little bit of a- a little bit of a hedge to justify. Like, "Oh, yeah, people are- have m- mental health issues and are killing themselves, so I took PEDs. Like, you know, to build this more viral brand, to then get my o- message out to the masses further, to help the people who are suicidal, but ... And because I also have mental issues," like, he mentions his insecurity and whatnot. But it's like, is you building this character that is unachievable naturally, helping body image issues for men-

    19. CW

      100%.

    20. DD

      ... or something

    21. NA

      (laughs) Yeah.

    22. CW

      100 fucking percent.

    23. DD

      ... inf- infinitely worse, potentially. (laughs)

    24. CW

      Dude, like, he's causing the low self-esteem that he claims he's here to support.

    25. DD

      Yeah, and then it's also- it would be one thing if there was no monetary upside to it, but for him to continue to hammer the, "My businesses grow 50% year over year without my- without my push," it's like, "Fuck off."

    26. CW

      (laughs)

    27. DD

      Like, there's no chance.

    28. CW

      His physique was created to sell supplements.

    29. DD

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      Right? That's why it was there. It was premeditated. Now, his self-esteem may play into this.

  4. 15:42 – 19:55

    Thoughts on the Apology Video

    1. CW

      Well-

    2. DD

      What do you think about the apology?

    3. CW

      Oh, dude. That man is like a WWE star-

    4. DD

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... to me. I- th- the cadence of the speech, it was obviously heavily prepared and maybe even entirely scripted.

    6. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      I think there's one error throughout the whole thing. Um, the whole, like, fucking movements and the pointing to the sky and these sort of, um, pre-prepared little routines of words, to me-

    8. DD

      Mm.

    9. CW

      ... are not what an apology video is supposed to be about. He doesn't seem sorry. He doesn't seem sad. There is no part of vulnerability in that. It seems unbelievably performative to me. And you could say, um, that is part of his personality. Maybe that's just the cadence and, like, the way that he speaks and stuff. I- I'm prepared to accept that, but I didn't feel sympathy for him.

    10. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      And I feel sympathy, um ... Other YouTubers do apologies and I'm like, "Yeah. Fair enough." Uh, all of the caveats when it came to, um, this is to do with self-esteem, the immediate misdirection toward 4,000 men a day kill themselves and eight- 80,000 men a day try- try to take their own lives, and stuff like that, it's like, bro, no one- no one criticized you about that.

    12. DD

      No.

    13. CW

      No one even brought that up.

    14. DD

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      Um, he also said, "It's complicated." Do you think it's complicated?

    16. DD

      No. Not really.

    17. CW

      You took drugs. Like, you were called out for taking drugs and lying about it.

    18. DD

      Yeah. I would-

    19. CW

      Where's the complication?

    20. DD

      I would understand the complication if he was on therapeutic replacement and that was it from day one, and he didn't want people to think that his therapeutic replacement was something that everyone needed if they were following a good lifestyle, diet, et cetera, and there wasn't monetary upside to what he was doing, and there wasn't this, like, lying to their faces and all this stuff-

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. DD

      ... but it was just ... (sighs) Yeah, it was, uh, I don't know. B- like, the apology was not ... Some of the stuff he said was good. He said, "I fucked up," very clearly.

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    24. DD

      And acknowledged what he did. Um, you know, some of it was great, for sure.

    25. CW

      But you got- you got maybe 30 seconds of that-

    26. DD

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... before twice being told how rich he was, and then again misdirection into the number of people that are try ... It's like, dude, it's on your shoulders.

    28. DD

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      This wasn't in service of anything that was outside of your control. Like, you're the person that chooses how- what happens with your business. You're the person that chooses what happens with your self-esteem. You're the person that's controlling the inputs and outputs that you have within your own life. You're not even restricted monetarily or in terms of resources. You can't even say, you know, "I needed the money." It's like you said in second 25 of the video, that you were rich before you even started doing this.

    30. DD

      Yeah.

  5. 19:55 – 30:32

    What Drugs was Liver King on?

    1. DD

      of the day.

    2. CW

      Just how many drugs was he on? Like, what are the sort of dosages for those of us that aren't, uh, a part of the...

    3. DD

      Off the top of my head, there was IGF-1, CJC, Ipamorelin, uh, MK-677, GH, Winstrol, Deca, Test, so eight. And that's, you know, just going into the, you know, the- the questionnaire of trying to just say, "This is what I'm doing right now, but I want- I need next level and I need to, you know, figure this stuff out now." He was trying to figure out how, why all of the GH-related stuff he was using was not working because he does, I believe, have a unique genetic predisposition that makes it harder to produce IGF-1, or it was some of the other drugs he was using that were kind of inhibiting it, but...

    4. CW

      What gives you that sense?

    5. DD

      Well, 'cause his IGF was less than 100, which is reflective of somebody who is, like, chronically malnourishing themselves potentially, um, in like a, I don't know, chronically keto dieting potentially, fasting way too much. Like, he's not representative of somebody who's in a, like a growth state necessarily.

    6. CW

      What makes you think that that is something which is, uh, inherent to him and not a byproduct of the lifestyle that he's leading?

    7. DD

      Uh, because when you're using that much shit, it's really hard to imagine that you wouldn't manually be putting your IGF-1 way higher. Like there's, like he's a smart fucking guy even though he dumbs himself down on podcasts to come across as more relatable and make it more understanding for, um, the people he's trying to inspire or whatever, because some of the stuff he would talk about otherwise is complicated, especially when it comes to, you know, the, like, I don't know, biomarkers and endocrine hormones and what kind of impact certain foods have. Like, he very much (sighs) dials it down to be as palatable and comproha- and, uh, I don't know, like palatable for the average person, um, but I don't know, like just the- the low value was something that he couldn't even wrap his head around, like that's one of the motivations that he was seeking, uh, guidance on essentially.

    8. CW

      Mm.

    9. DD

      Like, "Why am I on all this shit and it's not working?"

    10. CW

      Well, I suppose that's one of the framings where you could have gone, "Look, uh, I- I think that there's something physiologically going on here. I've kind of got myself into this strange feedback cycle of taking more drugs to fix a problem which potentially means that it shuts down production more..."

    11. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      "... which makes more drug, da-da-da-da-da-da."

    13. DD

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      That wasn't really the nature of the emails.

    15. DD

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      That was a part of the emails, but the majority of the emails was...

    17. DD

      Yeah, it was driving the brand and-

    18. CW

      Yes.

    19. DD

      ... getting virality.

    20. CW

      Yeah.

    21. DD

      Yeah. Yeah, I just, uh, yeah, it would have been more ethical of him to disclose what he was gonna do with it and then give the opportunity for whoever he is trying to contact for guidance to decide from there, "I'm okay with that in the way you're gonna do it versus not."

    22. CW

      Do I want to be the rocket fuel for the ship that's going to be-

    23. DD

      Yeah.

    24. CW

      ... stratospheric in the next 12 months.

    25. DD

      Yeah, and it's like obviously you're not the one on camera doing it, but like you're very much providing guidance and endorsing the process that he's doing.

    26. CW

      That's the first time that I've heard that take and I think it's a really interesting one. Like that-

    27. DD

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      ... that's a really interesting ethical dilemma for somebody to be in. Like if you want to, uh, synthesize the smallpox virus so that someone can study it in a lab or synthesize the smallpox virus so someone can weaponize it-

    29. DD

      Hmm.

    30. CW

      ... and send it out into the world.

  6. 30:32 – 39:31

    The Future for Liver King

    1. DD

      on that.

    2. CW

      What do you think the future's got in store for him?

    3. DD

      Um, I think as long as he remains fully transparent, but I don't know, like again, I don't think he is fully transparent even after the apology. But still, I think that overarchingly there will be a subsect of people who rea-... very much feel that it was a, you know, a necessary evil potentially to get the message out more, or people just don't care because they find him highly entertaining, or, um, I do think that he continues to grow on social media and, uh, make wild ancestrally consistent videos and shit. I don't, I don't think it changes (laughs) that much. Like, I think he definitely is going to carry this with him and people generally at least know the truth behind the inception of the brand now and what the plan was from day one, et cetera. But, um, I very much think it continues a little bit on the same track, all but with more transparency to some extent.

    4. CW

      There's been something weird that's happened over the last few days since the video that you released went out, and it is, um, a lot of Instagram stories from him tagging you-

    5. DD

      Oh, yeah.

    6. CW

      ... in this sort of appreciative, uh, almost collaborative or attempting, I think, to position himself as collaborative with you, uh, to not position himself in any way as an adversary of yours.

    7. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      Like, that's the number one thing. There was a video of him that you must have seen, sat around the table with his kids at dinner.

    9. DD

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      Saying, uh, "I want," you know, "Before we eat, like, I want to say thank you to Derek for doing the whatever." He said, um, "You're the catalyst to help bring him to his knees and rise to new heights that he's eternally grateful for."

    11. DD

      Hm.

    12. CW

      What do you, what do you ... Do you feel, uh, are you feeling the gratitude?

    13. DD

      (laughs) It's ... Dude, I don't know what he says is part of the character or not at this point, so it's like I don't necessarily think it comes from, like, a totally honest place necessarily, as you would expect. But, um, I understand why he would be doing it to, you know, if he's, if he aligns with the video and makes it seem like he's gr- has gratitude for it coming out and it helps him, you know, be a more transparent and better man in the future, then like what el- ... I don't know what else he could position it as, or just not talk about it at all. I don't know, what do you think? I don't, I don't even know what to think about it, dude. Like, wrapping my head around the whole situation is-

    14. CW

      It's very strange. It's very strange. I think, um, it makes sense to use it as a, a defensive strategy.

    15. DD

      Mm.

    16. CW

      Um, for all the, on the outside, he looks relatively unflappable. The apology video, to me, held very little vulnerability or sadness in it. It didn't seem authentic. It didn't make me feel, uh, like any sympathy for him.

    17. DD

      Mm.

    18. CW

      Um, there still must be a lot of frenetic, "We need to fix this. We need to come up with a solution towards it to stop this." Not even just ... I- ... There is a person in there, right? There is a human in there for whom this is going to be a difficult time. Like, and I do want to, you know, recognize the fact that this will fucking suck personally for him.

    19. DD

      Mm.

    20. CW

      Um, so it's not like every single thing is a contrived business activity and he's literally like the mouthpiece puppet of a business that he also happens to run.

    21. DD

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      But I think the reason that he would do it, that he is trying to align himself so closely with you, with the Instagram stories, with the gratitude, with the ra- rise to new greater heights and all of that stuff, is in an attempt to, um, down regulate the in-group out-group dynamic-

    23. DD

      Yeah.

    24. CW

      ... that weaponizes people on the internet. Like, that is what causes people to really fucking dig their heels into something. So, if he was to say, "Derek's a fucking piece of shit," um, "He shouldn't have released those emails. I think that it's unethical," uh, stonewalled or lied or said like, "I'm going to..." whatever, whatever, whatever. Like, if he'd done any of that, the entire internet would have got behind you.

    25. DD

      Mm.

    26. CW

      And they would have said, "You've just been rumbled and y- y- we're going to take you down for it." The only way that you can deal with this is to be the very gracious, very humble, very accepted, and to not position yourself as someone that is on the other side of this discussion to the person who has, uh, massive amounts of respect, a huge, massive loyal fan base, and is generating like two million plays a day on their YouTube channel from one video. Like, you can't do that. And I think that, uh, that closeness and affinity is a, a protective mechanism. I'm not saying that that is exclusively contrived either. Like, I genuinely think that he just, like ... I don't know whether you ever did this in school. Did you ever get, um, you would accidentally like play too hard and hit someone and they would start crying, and then you'd go, "Aah," and you'd start crying as if you'd been hit as well. Like, I see this happening with kid, little kids all the time, that they just, they, they want to try and find affinity with the person that is maybe a little bit of an adversary-

    27. DD

      Right.

    28. CW

      ... and that, that tries to calm down the, the energy a bit.

    29. DD

      Yeah. Uh, yeah, it's hard to say, man. Like, wrapping my head around the situation is like ... I, I don't really know what to make of it. Sometimes when I think about the whole picture, it's just mind-blowing that this is even a thing. It seems like a, like a movie almost. It's just, it's just absurd. (laughs)

    30. CW

      I've seen, uh, an, a couple of interesting takes coming out of the ancestral/paleo/carnivore community, uh, saying people already think that we're like weird enough-

  7. 39:31 – 48:45

    Health Risks of Taking TRT

    1. DD

    2. CW

      When we're talking about testosterone generally, uh, I'm hearing a lot more about guys going on TRT. Uh, in America, it, it seems to be significantly bigger than it is in the UK, which is where I'm from originally. What are the health risks that guys should consider if they're thinking about going on TRT? If someone comes to you and says, "Hey man, I'm," whatever, "at an age where I feel like this is something that I want to do. Uh, what should I be concerned about?" What would you tell them?

    3. DD

      (Sighs) Well, it depends the context in which they enter into that. Because again, if you don't actually need it and you get on it, you could be making yourself less healthy if you're already perfectly functioning, top tier, and you're just doing it because, I don't know, you wanted to look like Liver King or some shit, like I don't know. But if you don't, if you do need it and you're clinically deficient, you are, and again, not a med- not medical advice, but in general, you are going to be more prone to things like cardiovascular disease, neuro-degeneration, et cetera. So it's kind of like, if you actually clinically need something, to then say, "What is the downside to TRT?" It's like, "What is the downside of not being on TRT at that point," potentially. That's wh- kind of how I would frame it for the actual clinical utility of it in a real deficient setting. It's kind of like, "What could you be staving off by using it in a responsible way?" It's kind of...

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. DD

      And again, I think this is where like Brian could come in and be educating and actually say, "This is..." You know? Like he knows why stuff is actually useful and healthy or has actual utility in a clinical setting, but he very much, you know, foregoes that because it just doesn't, uh, fit the... Well, up to now, it hadn't fit the narrative essentially.

    6. CW

      Would you be surprised if the volume of drugs that it's likely that he's taken wouldn't have taken a little bit of, uh, time off his health span?

    7. DD

      Oh, for sure. Yeah, it's definitely not conducive to longevity. The bigger you are, the more muscle you have... Okay, this is too vague of a statement 'cause I was about to say if you have too much muscle, you're just gonna die quicker. But in general, humans who are bigger and have more demands from their organs to support their infrastructure are going to live a shorter amount of time in general. Like t- like a small, tiny Asian woman is probably gonna outlive the jacked brontosaurus human that's on a bodybuilding stage every single time.

    8. CW

      Why?

    9. DD

      Because of the stress and taxation it takes to support the demands of that tissue. So... And also, it d- it depends how regulating you are of things like blood pressure. Are you letting it get out of whack? Do you have a resting heart rate of like... Is... Are you like borderline tachycardia all the time with 100 resting heart rate and you're never getting to sleep because you're so jacked up on androgens or like whatever? Like there are so many things that play into it and it's multifactorial for sure, but in general if you are just a... And again, this isn't to say... 'Cause there is definitely a push in the longevity community to be protein deficient and be as small as possible and be frail and just live a terrible life, but live to 100 plus. Like there needs to be a happy medium, in my opinion, for a high quality of life that's also trying to live as long as possible with that high quality, 'cause you're gonna die eventually and do you want those years to be, you know, frail, like barely fucking functional in a chair? Probably not. So there's definitely a happy medium, but in general, the uh, the more you go super physiologic, the less healthy it is in all areas.... is kinda the best way to put it.

    10. CW

      That's a really good take and, uh, uh, totally know what you mean with regards to the balance between longevity, uh, amount of years and quality of those.

    11. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      Um, do you want to feel good, perform well, be able to do a variety of tasks and be able to live life to its fullest, or do you want to permanently be in this ambient anxiety about whether or not your oxalate level has gone through the roof because you didn't eat the right type of spinach this morning?

    13. DD

      Mm.

    14. CW

      Like, that is, I think, one of the concerns. I, I, I dug into the longevity community for a long time, and, uh, Dr. David Sinclair's been on twice and went to go meet him in Harvard and it was just after he'd been on Rogan, and then I went to go and see him in Boston the week after that.

    15. DD

      He's getting a lot of heat recently.

    16. CW

      I've heard.

    17. DD

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      Oh, fuck.

    19. DD

      People think he's coordinating with the FDA to get NMN banned-

    20. CW

      Officers-

    21. DD

      ... in the supplement industry.

    22. CW

      ... do you think that's true? I haven't looked into this at all.

    23. DD

      (laughs) I haven't looked into it enough, but there is pretty damning suggestive things that don't look too favorable.

    24. CW

      And are people, um, like, attached to their access to NMN?

    25. DD

      Yeah, it's like I don't even know if it has that much utility at the end of the day, but it's just the fact that he's trying to restrict people so then he can benefit from it.

    26. CW

      Interesting.

    27. DD

      Potentially, again.

    28. CW

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    29. DD

      Yeah.

    30. CW

      Allegedly. I, I haven't, I saw one headline about this and didn't, I haven't read it yet.

  8. 48:45 – 1:02:46

    Should We Be Worried About Men’s Testosterone Levels?

    1. CW

      Um, going back to the testosterone conversation, men's testosterone dropping 1% per year since the 1980s and they're at all-time record lows and stuff like that.

    2. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      Is this something that we should be worried about, do you think?

    4. DD

      Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

    5. CW

      Why is it happening-

    6. DD

      Um, I think-

    7. CW

      ... in your, in your opinion?

    8. DD

      I think it's multifactorial, and it is a combination of-... lifestyle, environmental exposure, um, diet choices, lack of exercise, poor lifestyle habits, sedentary jobs now, no exposure to sunlight, being indoors all the time, more people are depressed from social media too. Like, there are just so many things that are conducive to being a sedentary, lazy, apathetic piece of shit, basically, and these are not conducive to masculinity or to (laughs) making testosterone obviously. Right? Do you agree?

    9. CW

      I- I do. I- I don't know the way that our testosterone production can be influenced by environmental factors.

    10. DD

      Oh, if you see a- like a- a hot chick, you- all the T goes up.

    11. CW

      Uh, I found out that it goes up if you're around weapons as well.

    12. DD

      There you go. Yeah.

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. DD

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      If you're near a gun.

    16. DD

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      So, that's a- an advice for keeping lots of weapons, I suppose, in your house and touching them regularly.

    18. DD

      (laughs) Yeah.

    19. CW

      Just stroking.

    20. DD

      Just wake up and just fucking...

    21. CW

      Stroking guns in the morning.

    22. DD

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      But, um, I- I- I don't know how big the impact can be, right, on, um, human physiology simply from what you're talking about. It's-

    24. DD

      Lack of sleep in itself can just fucking destroy you.

    25. CW

      (laughs)

    26. DD

      And a lot of people are perpetually five to six hours with poor quality sleep.

    27. CW

      Have we got data that peoples' sleep has, uh, decreased? Uh, their quality of sleep and the length of sleep has decreased over time?

    28. DD

      You'd have to defer to Matthew Walker on that for like an exact statistic, but I'm fairly certain that you could confidently say, in general, sleep quality and duration has deteriorated in recent years-

    29. CW

      Mm.

    30. DD

      ... quite significantly.

  9. 1:02:46 – 1:13:15

    Derek’s Opinion of Andrew Huberman

    1. DD

      I appreciate it.

    2. CW

      Um, we spoke about Andrew Huberman today.

    3. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      What's your thoughts on him and his contributions?

    5. DD

      Um, overarchingly is one of the best educational resources, I would say, that is, um, also one of the only individuals that I believe to be very, very, uh, I don't know, like dedicated to putting out the best information even at the detriment of potential views. Like he will not just host people who will get high views. He will host people that he feels are, have high level contribution to the community at large and are educational and could otherwise inform him of things he doesn't even know. And he's very open to criticism, even from YouTubers who aren't medically qualified, like myself. Like he did not get upset or annoyed when I first, uh, reacted to one of his, uh, Joe Rogan episodes and I talked about, um, some of the stuff he said about, uh, some of the bodybuilding drugs he had mentioned, some of the interactions with endocrine hormones. I kind of did one of my classic reaction videos and gave kind of my insight on what I felt to be correct, and he was very, very polite in, like a lot of people could take that the wrong way and be like, "I'm a fucking like world, uh, top tier neuroscientist, and you piece of shit YouTuber, you don't know anything. Who are you to talk about this?" And he was not like that at all. He had, you know, we've become decent friends, I would say, since then, and he's, uh, um, always open to learning, even if it's from people who aren't like medically credentialed, which is awesome because there are a lot of people out there who are... Some of the people I learned the most from aren't MDs or guys who are otherwise seen as, you know, the forefront, on paper, qualified person. There are people who are just entrenched in learning more and are otherwise very much doing the same thing he does too, where they'll just host people and learn or dig into literature themselves, stay up to date on most of the, on the most cutting edge developments in endocrinology, pharmacology, whatever it is. And he's, uh, yeah, he's great.

    6. CW

      It seems like a rarity to have someone that has got the, uh, scientific rigor and the preparedness to go through what I imagine aren't exactly entertaining papers.

    7. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      Not exactly like a r- a riveting read.

    9. DD

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      Um, to then take all of that out, look at what does this mean for the everyday person-

    11. DD

      Mm.

    12. CW

      ... and then turn it into something that's an applied solution.

    13. DD

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      Like, that's an awful lot of work. And, you know, the podcast is unbelievably successful and he has this fantastic, uh, platform now and, uh, his live shows are going well and all the rest of it, but like, let's be fair. He works, as p- as podcasters go, that man works incredibly hard for what he gets out.

    15. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      It's not like he's publishing an episode every single day.

    17. DD

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      He's not live streaming all the time. He's taking weeks, months sometimes to do research for a single episode. This one's going to be about grief. This one's going to be about, uh, mating psychology. This one's going to be about exercise science or whatever.

    19. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    20. CW

      And you're like, this guy's gone as deep as is possible on pretty much anything and everything that's available to do it. The interesting thing, a massive fan of Andrew, become really like tight with him since he came on the show and I find him like a really giving, like kind person.

    21. DD

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      Which again, for that industry, you'd think like super autisty, uh, just head in the books without any compassion or whatever, and not the case either. The biggest difference or the interesting thing that I realized, I think, since Huberman's been on the scene, the biohacking community overall has begun to look more and more silly to me personally.

    23. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    24. CW

      Um, I don't know whether that's the case for everybody else, but the very sort of experimental, forward thinking, like super out there stuff that was being done kind of seems a- a bit silly and under-evidenced.

    25. DD

      Give me an example.

    26. CW

      Uh, s- s- red light sunning on your balls and like-

    27. DD

      Ah.

    28. CW

      ... claiming that that's like the biggest thing, the most important thing that you need to do. Um, PCP injections into like whatev- whatever fucking part of your body in order to be able to facilitate the blah, blah, blah.

    29. DD

      Mm.

    30. CW

      Like the, um, different types of lights that people would get either on glasses or around their neck to, uh, activate certain glands or whatever that I saw. That was like a thing for a big while, these sort of, um, necklaces almost that had lights built into them that people would use. Like all manner of wild shit that was happening, uh, using, uh, like brain train EMF machines in order to be able to optimize your meditation practice and stuff like that.... in comparison with someone like Huberman, who just comes out and goes, "This is what the science says. This is what we know, like, hard and fast. This is something that has evidence that backs it up. This is a tool that we can fairly derive from those conclusions."

  10. 1:13:15 – 1:17:28

    What Chris Learned from an E-Sports Coach

    1. CW

      so many ... I was at a Thanksgiving dinner with a, uh, mental performance coach for a professional esports team.

    2. DD

      Wow.

    3. CW

      And I was like, "Oh, we're- we're fucking talking."

    4. DD

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      Like, me and you, me and you, like-

    6. DD

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... "Everybody else get out of the way, I've got a conversation with this man." And we had, like, an hour and a bit conversation, and there was loads of stuff that it brought back up to do with Michael Gervais, this guy that was, uh, Felix Baumgartner, you know the dude that jumped from space?

    8. DD

      Mm.

    9. CW

      He had a problem with his, um, uh, he had claustrophobia when he was getting inside of the suit, and they needed to get this Michael guy in to come and, like, like, fucking pull the ripcord, like, "We need to fix this guy or else w- we're not gonna be able to go ahead with the mission."

    10. DD

      Mm-hmm.

    11. CW

      Like, thinking about concepts that I've learned from him or Steve Magness, this w- guy that wrote another book or, like, stories that I've heard about Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whatever, and I'm like, "This isn't... This is just me repurposing some shit that somebody else said to me." But this one guy, in like what feels like an unbelievably niche, uh, industry-

    12. DD

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... you get to have this amazing conversation, and, you know, that's what the attraction is to shows that I think are diverse, is everybody is such a inherently idiosyncratic, varied individual. I don't know many people that are, "What do you like?" "I like Ultimate Frisbee and that's it."

    14. DD

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      And it's like, "No, I like, like, 20 things," right? "I like, like, sci-fi from the '80s and I'm a fan of, like, modern art and classical music and blah, blah, blah." And because of that, you want to try and reflect that in your content consumption because it feeds all of those different things, and then obviously as a creator if you get to be the person that's like, "Who are you gonna speak to this week?" And you go, "Dunno, whoever I'm interested in," like, no barriers.

    16. DD

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      That's- that's what's cool, and then downstream from that people get to learn it as well.

    18. DD

      Did you get any good tips for gaming?

    19. CW

      So, I asked him-

    20. DD

      Do you game?

    21. CW

      Uh, I don't, not anymore. I used to, but nowhere near as, like, like... I was terrible even when I was trying.

    22. DD

      Okay.

    23. CW

      Um, but the biggest things that he told me were exactly the same things that you've just brought up to do with testosterone. I asked him what the biggest problems that his professional esports athletes face are. For them, sleep and caffeine were-

    24. DD

      Right.

    25. CW

      He was like, "If I could fix those two things," which are obviously both interlinked as well, he said that would probably be 50% of his job.

    26. DD

      Define fix for caffeine.

    27. CW

      (laughs)

    28. DD

      Like what does that involve?

    29. CW

      These kids who have only managed to get themselves onto a professional esports team by grinding, th- all they do is grind, right?

    30. DD

      Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:43:55

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