The #1 Mistake That Makes You Sound Insecure - Matt Abrahams

1. 0:00 – 4:36

   Why Do People Have Speaking Anxiety?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      How do you describe what you do?

   2. MAMatt Abrahams0:02

      I'm somebody who helps people (sighs) develop and hone their communication skills. Communication is critical for our success in business and in life, and that's what I help people do through my teaching, my podcasting, my writing.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:15

      Is that a problem people are having more of in the modern world?

   4. MAMatt Abrahams0:19

      I think that's true. I think that's true. Uh, as we become bombarded with more information, the ability to communicate clearly is critical for us to succeed. So yes, it, there's just a lot more information. It's important to be clear and concise and to really understand what's relevant for those you speak to.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:36

      What are the biggest problems that the people that you work with come to you complaining about?

   6. MAMatt Abrahams0:41

      Well, fir- first and foremost, people are really anxious, especially in high-stakes speaking situations. So anxiety and learning to feel more confident is number one. And then number two, people... The big mistake people make is they just don't focus their messages, focus on their audience, make it concise, make it clear, interesting, and engaging. So when I work with people in the classes I teach at Stanford or in the coaching I do, it's really around those elements.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:05

      Okay, so speaking anxiety, I, I keep hearing data or studies around it's the scariest thing that anybody e- ever has to do. If this was you in a tribal time, you would have been put on the spot, and you had to defend yourself, and maybe you'd have lost status or whatever, whatever. Uh, w- why is it that people feel that way in your understanding of the literature? Uh, what's going on inside of the mouth and the brain and the, and the tongue? Uh...

   8. MAMatt Abrahams1:33

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:33

      Gi- gi- give me a breakdown.

   10. MAMatt Abrahams1:35

       Yeah, so you, you hit it on the head. Uh, it's part of being human to be concerned about being up in front of other people. We see it in every culture that's been studied. It tends to start around the same time, right as kids are entering their early teens is where we really see spikes in anxiety, and this spans culture. It has to do with status and not the status of who drives the fanciest car, who has the most likes on social media. It's all about your relative status in a group. And as we were evolving, we would hang out in groups of around 150 people, and your status in that group mattered a lot. It meant you got access to resources, reproduction, food, shelter. And if your status was low, you didn't have any of that. It was literally a matter of life and death. So it was critical to not do anything that jeopardized your status, like making a mistake or a fool of yourself in front of others, and we carry that with us. Now, even though it's part of who we are, we can go about doing things to manage that anxiety so we can be successful.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:34

       Okay, why do you think it is that, uh, good ability to public speak would be an adaptive skill when someone's put on the spot tribally?

   12. MAMatt Abrahams2:50

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:50

       You know, it doesn't really relate to your, uh, capacity to bring down a deer or to gather berries. I... doesn't necessarily really even relate that much to being pro-social in terms of what you can contribute. It kind of appears pro-social in that most people who are good at talking to people develop the ability of being good at talking to people so they're around people a lot, and presumably, the people that are around people a lot aren't arseholes-

   14. MAMatt Abrahams3:17

       (laughs) .

   15. CWChris Williamson3:18

       ... but I'm just trying to work out, you know, is it-

   16. MAMatt Abrahams3:21

       Yeah, sure, so-

   17. CWChris Williamson3:21

       ... is it, is it simply that language is a, a crucial sort of, uh, vector that humans use to communicate? Is it, is it as simple as that?

   18. MAMatt Abrahams3:27

       Well, I'd ask you to take a step back and, and say, what, what purpose does communication serve? And when you think about that, communication is operationalized empathy, and empathy is critical to our species' survival. One of the things that differentiates us is the ability to collaborate and connect with other people. And anything that helps us to do that gives us an evolutionary advantage. So collaboration, connection are important. Empathy drives that. And there are people who study what I study who would argue that our ability to communicate verbally and non-verbally is the result of that drive towards empathy. So it's solving a problem. So I, I, I actually believe that communication is critical for survival.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:10

       Operationalized empathy?

   20. MAMatt Abrahams4:12

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:13

       Interesting. Okay, so we are, uh, ancestrally justified in our fears around communication. (laughs)

   22. MAMatt Abrahams4:22

       I, I don't know if I'd use the word justified, but certainly it's ingrained.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:26

       Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, well-established. It's, uh-

   24. MAMatt Abrahams4:28

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:29

       ... uh, uh, an illustrious history of we, we are the, the sons and daughters of nervous public speakers, um-

   26. MAMatt Abrahams4:35

       Fair.

2. 4:36 – 7:44

   Advice for Managing Anxiety

   1. MAMatt Abrahams4:36

   2. CWChris Williamson4:37

      How do you advise somebody who's got their presentation to give, who's on a first date or a second date or, uh, best man speech or whatever the terrifying opportunity to make words come out of your face of choice, what do you suggest that people do to gain control of their system and to operate more effectively?

   3. MAMatt Abrahams4:58

      Well, when it comes to managing anxiety, you have to take a two-pronged approach. You have to manage both symptoms and sources. So let me ask you, when you get nervous speaking in front of others, what happens to you symptomatically? For me, I blush and I sweat. That's the, the big sign for me. What happens for you?

   4. CWChris Williamson5:13

      (sighs) I, before I go out on stage, I tend to be very quiet and closed off.

   5. MAMatt Abrahams5:18

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:19

      Uh, so I sort of, like my body language isn't all that great sometimes-

   7. MAMatt Abrahams5:23

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson5:23

      ... especially if I'm not feeling sort of super, super in the zone. Um, and, uh, heart rate seems to be high, a lot of rumination in the mind, a lot of sort of self-referential thinking.

   9. MAMatt Abrahams5:36

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson5:37

       Um, and I found that, at least in, in, in my best estimation, most of that can go away if I just have tons of people backstage that I can talk to about interesting conversations.

   11. MAMatt Abrahams5:48

       Yes.

   12. CWChris Williamson5:48

       And if I play a couple of my favorite songs and sing to them out loud-

   13. MAMatt Abrahams5:51

       Perfect.

   14. CWChris Williamson5:51

       ... before I walk out on stage. Those, that's my two-pronged approach.

   15. MAMatt Abrahams5:54

       Perfect. So you, you are, you, you are already jumping ahead to, to some of the remedies for this. So it's very normal and natural.... To go inward, both mentally, start ruminating, and sometimes we'll say pretty mean things to ourselves, like, "I should've prepared more. I don't deserve to be here," et cetera, but also physically closing down. And you have identified some ways to help, so let me give some real quick ways of managing s- uh, sources, symptoms, and then we can talk about sources. So taking deep belly breaths, and what's most important is the exhale, not the inhale. So if you've ever done yoga, tai chi, meditation, qigong, those deep belly breaths, and you want your exhale to be twice as long as your inhale. And if you do two or three of those, you slow down your autonomic nervous system. That rapid heart rate you talked about, that will slow down. If you do what you're doing, which is getting present-oriented. When you're in the moment, you are, by definition, not worried about the future. One of the sources of anxiety is our worry about not being successful, and we can short-circuit that by being present. So talking to other people, engaging in meaningful conversation helps you be present-oriented. Listening to a song or a playlist helps you be present-oriented. In my case, when I blush and I sweat, that's the core body temperature going up. Your heart's beating faster. Your body's tensing up. You're pushing more blood through tighter tubes. So just like when you exercise, you turn red and you sweat, so we have to cool ourselves down. And the way you cool yourself down is holding something cold in the palms of your hand. The palms of your hand are thermoregulators for your body. So if you cool yourself down, you'll blush and sweat less. If you take deep breaths, your, your heart rate will slow down. If you get present-oriented, it'll also bring you into a place where you can do it more confidently. So several techniques there. You're already employing many that work for lots of people.

   16. CWChris Williamson7:41

       Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh,

3. 7:44 – 10:17

   Why People Choke on the Spot

   1. CWChris Williamson7:44

      is this the same reason that people choke when they're put on the spot, or is there-

   2. MAMatt Abrahams7:47

      Uh-

   3. CWChris Williamson7:47

      ... a slightly different mechanism, dynamic going on?

   4. MAMatt Abrahams7:51

      Slightly different mechanism, slightly different source. Many of us, when we communicate, because we're nervous about it and want to show ourselves as best we can, we over-rehearse. We over-practice, and your brain is like a computer, not... It's not a perfect analogy, but you only have so much limited cognitive bandwidth. You know on your laptop or your phone when you have lots of windows and apps open? Each one of those is behaving a little more slowly because the others are open. The same with your brain. If I am judging and evaluating what I'm saying while I'm saying it to a s- a high degree, I have less cognitive resource to actually do what I'm doing. That's why memorizing is so bad. When you memorize, you've created the perfect way to say it, and you're constantly comparing what you're saying to what you memorized, reducing the bandwidth you have. So it's not about saying it right. There is no right. There's only better or worse. So I like to tell my students, I like to tell everybody, "It's about connection, not perfection." Just connect, get the idea across rather than trying to say it exactly the right way. The desire to say it right leads to choking-

   5. CWChris Williamson8:55

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MAMatt Abrahams8:55

      ... because you've exhausted your cognitive bandwidth.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:57

      Okay. How do you overcome that perfectionism trap?

   8. MAMatt Abrahams9:01

      Several ways. One, remind yourself the goal of communication is to connect, to get the point across. It's not about you, it's about your audience, so we have to think about what's relevant for them. When we remind ourselves that we're in service of our audience, we have value to bring, it takes that spotlight off of us and shines it on our audience, so that reduces the pressure-

   9. CWChris Williamson9:20

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MAMatt Abrahams9:20

       ... frees up more cognitive bandwidth. When it comes to memorizing in particular, I am a huge fan of structure. Structure is a logical connection of ideas. It's a roadmap. One of the very common structures, many of your listeners and I'm sure you're familiar with, is problem, solution, benefit. I tell you about a problem, I tell you how I solve it, and I tell you how you benefit. That structure provides a roadmap for me, so I don't have to memorize every word in what I'm saying. I just remind myself that I explain the problem. Once I explain the problem, I explain how I expect to solve it, and then the benefit you have. So I take the pressure off of having to say it word for word the right way-

   11. CWChris Williamson9:57

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MAMatt Abrahams9:57

       ... and just have a general map to get me through it.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:00

       Mm-hmm. Okay, so structure can liberate people to be more spontaneous in that way-

   14. MAMatt Abrahams10:07

       Absolutely.

   15. CWChris Williamson10:08

       ... in your opinion.

   16. MAMatt Abrahams10:08

       Uh, 100%, not just in my opinion. In the research and in what I've seen happen for, for many, many people.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:14

       Okay. Is there a time where

4. 10:17 – 14:43

   Can You Over-Prepare?

   1. CWChris Williamson10:17

      less preparation could actually make you better in some cases? Is there such a thing as, as over-preparation?

   2. MAMatt Abrahams10:24

      Sure. S- Uh, just like in a sport, yeah, where you can over-prepare, over-preparation gets you in the wrong headspace as well. Finding that sweet pu- sweet spot is important, but the most important thing is the type of preparation. So if I'm just practicing the same thing over and over again so I'm memorizing, we've already talked about how that's not helpful, but if I'm thinking about ways, uh, different ways of saying it, practicing different ways of saying it, I'm actually building and preparing well. Think of an athlete who does a whole bunch of drills. The drill every time is not always the same, but it's in the same circumstance or dealing with the same situation. So when that situation presents itself, they are well-prepared to deal with it. So it's how you prepare that's the biggest barrier to success. Preparation-

   3. CWChris Williamson11:12

      Give-

   4. MAMatt Abrahams11:12

      ... is critical.

   5. CWChris Williamson11:13

      Yeah. Give me a better way to prepare, because people will say, "This is the gold standard for my-

   6. MAMatt Abrahams11:19

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson11:19

      ... for my best man's speech. Uh, th- this script, word for word, this is how I'm going to say it." Uh, that's, that's not good, but-

   8. MAMatt Abrahams11:26

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson11:26

      ... nope, no preparation, and just Harry Mack freestyle rapping it, also probably-

   10. MAMatt Abrahams11:31

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson11:31

       ... high-risk, high-risk strategy.

   12. MAMatt Abrahams11:32

       I would love to see you rap a best man speech. So I'd love to see that. So-

   13. CWChris Williamson11:36

       I did one... I did one a couple of we- I did my first one a, a couple of months ago. No rapping involved, but it did go well, so.

   14. MAMatt Abrahams11:42

       W- Uh, so let me give you, let me give you two way, two, two different situations.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:46

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MAMatt Abrahams11:46

       In the situation of a, of a, of, uh, tribute, like you were giving, a best man's toast as an example of a tribute, having a structure is key. You want to make sure there's a logical ord- ordering. You want to make sure the content is relevant, not hidden information and too much detail. You don't want it to be a roast. You want it to truly be a toast. And when you practice,... go through it a couple of times, and then break it down into piece parts. So if it's a two, three-minute thing, break it down by minute, and practice each section separately, not together. And when you do that, you give the attention that's warranted for preparation, but you don't get locked into that particular order. So let's say in your best man's toast that you gave, there was one anecdote you told or maybe two anecdotes. Practice those separately occasionally, and then put it all together once or twice. And that get- lets you kick the tires on all the parts and give the attention needed without following in- falling into that pattern where you can become over-rehearsed. I'll give you another example. I'm often asked by people, "How do I handle challenging questions?" Maybe it's a job interview, high-stakes communication, Q&A afterwards, you can practice using generative AI. Go to it, say, "You're this audience," whatever it is, "Ask me three questions on these topics." It'll spit out some questions and you practice answering. So it's different questions, but you're going through the motions of answering. Just like a basketball player practices shots from different places, but they're always shooting, you can do the same thing. So those are two different examples of how you can practice and prepare in a way that sets you up for success, rather than over-preparing which can set you up for failure.

   17. CWChris Williamson13:23

       Right, okay. Uh, (laughs) are polished speakers less trusted in that way?

   18. MAMatt Abrahams13:29

       Mm. So trust is tricky, right? It's, uh... When it comes to polish, you want to be fluent and you want to be connected and engaging, but not over-rehearsed. In the academic world, we call this immediacy. In the common vernacular, it's charisma, connection. It's about being present and feeling like the person is there and really connecting with you, not just going through the words that they're saying. And that connection comes from your, as the communicator, your mindset. It's about me connecting to you. But it's also me observing what's going on and adjusting and adapting as needed. So if you look perplexed or you look engaged, I adjust and adapt my communication. So what we're having in that moment is immediate, and that's-

   19. CWChris Williamson14:18

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MAMatt Abrahams14:18

       ... what gives that feeling that leads to trust and connection. So y- you need to be prepared in practice so you can actually be present. If you're in your head trying to figure out, "What the heck I'm going to say next," that pulls you away. But if you're too over-rehearsed, then that also gets in the way. So, so it's tricky, but it, it, it, you can be over-practiced and over-polished for sure.

   21. CWChris Williamson14:39

       Yeah, delicate balance.

   22. MAMatt Abrahams14:41

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson14:41

       How do people avoid

5. 14:43 – 19:25

   How to Avoid Rambling

   1. CWChris Williamson14:43

      rambling, get to the point faster?

   2. MAMatt Abrahams14:45

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:45

      You mentioned-

   4. MAMatt Abrahams14:46

      Yep.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:47

      ... uh, my favorite word when it comes to communication is precision. Sort of-

   6. MAMatt Abrahams14:50

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:50

      ... not using more, not using less, not being excessively verbose, not being too complex, not being too simple. It's precise. It's that, it's this, you said what you meant to say.

   8. MAMatt Abrahams14:59

      Yeah, you say precise, I say concise. In many ways, I think they're synonymous. I talk a lot about concision, just in the way you're talking about precision. So a couple suggestions. One, my mother has this great advice, and all of us, I think, should live by this advice. Tell the time, don't build the clock. Many of us, when we communicate, we take our audiences on the journey of our discovery of what we're thinking about and want to say as we're saying it. We say too much. So how do you focus? Couple things. One, you think about what's most relevant to your audience. If you focus on the relevance, that'll help you focus your message. Second, I believe all high-stakes communication, I don't care if it's one-on-one, big presentation, written, spoken, does not matter, must be goal-driven. A goal has three parts: information, emotion, and action. So I think to myself, "What do I want them to know? How do I want them to feel? And what do I want them to do?" Know, feel, do. And that, again, helps me focus. So if I take the time to think about what's relevant to the audience, have a clear goal, and then leverage a structure, all of those help me be more concise, precise, and accessible. And those are three key ingredients to being good at communicating.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:06

      Can you give me-

   10. MAMatt Abrahams16:08

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson16:08

       ... an example of someone building the clock versus telling the time with that three-step process? So a, a bad example and a good example.

   12. MAMatt Abrahams16:17

       Well, I ask anybody to think about a recent meeting that they've been in where somebody waxed poetic about the deep history of something before they talked about what it was that they actually need people to do or what they're currently building. That's a great example. Many people in technology, many faculty members, (laughs) many of my peers, not to throw them under the bus, we, we say more than we need to because we are trying to build our credibility, demonstrate we know our stuff inside and out.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:44

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MAMatt Abrahams16:44

       But what's important for the audience is just the bottom line, telling the time. So in the military, they have this notion of BLUF, bottom line up front. Tell us what's important, and if people want to learn more or know more, they're going to ask questions. You're in service of your audience. The goal is not to demonstrate how much you know, it's to give them what they need. So examples are rampant all over the place.

   15. CWChris Williamson17:05

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's interesting.

   16. MAMatt Abrahams17:06

       Hopefully, I'm b- I, hopefully I'm being a good example (laughs) of being focused, concise, and precise, but you can tell me.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:11

       You certainly are. This is like speedrunning a conversation masterclass. One of the temptations that, uh, I s- certainly had on the show, uh, for a good while, if I'm speaking, I, I, I've made a career out of being the most stupid person in the room, across-

   18. MAMatt Abrahams17:26

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson17:26

       ... you know, every, every time that we talk. And that is fine. I bring someone on who spent their entire life dedicated to a topic, and I've read the book, so I'm always going to be holding onto their coattails. And I think one of the ways that you can try and compensate for that is by using sort of overly complex language.

   20. MAMatt Abrahams17:46

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson17:46

       "You know, let, let me, let me signal to you just how..." Yeah, "L- let me, let me bring up the reticular activating system as it pertains to..." Anytime that you, hey dude, let me tell you, anytime that you drop the word "pertains," you've gone too far.

   22. MAMatt Abrahams17:58

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson17:58

       Let me tell you, you've gone too far, right? That's the-

   24. MAMatt Abrahams18:00

       Right.

   25. CWChris Williamson18:01

       ... canary in the coal mine. Um, but-

   26. MAMatt Abrahams18:04

       Yes.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:04

       ... I, uh...... increasingly over time, I'm now trying to get my language back to that level of precision, as-

   28. MAMatt Abrahams18:11

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson18:11

       ... as, as simple as possible, but no simpler than that. And, um, that's a, uh, a nice way, I think, to, to think about it. But the temptation's there. My point is the temptation is there-

   30. MAMatt Abrahams18:20

       Right.
6. 19:25 – 23:40

   Thinking Fast on Your Feet

   1. CWChris Williamson19:25

      can people be faster on their feet and more spontaneous? Unfortunately, not all of the conversations, in fact, very few of the, the times that we do speak are prepared. Most of it is us free- freestyle rapping without the wrapping. Um, so, yeah.

   2. MAMatt Abrahams19:37

      (laughs) . Yeah, spontaneous speaking, you're right, if you think about it, it's giving feedback, answering questions, fixing your mistakes, making small talk. So part of it is preparing to be spontaneous, so you have to do your reps. Just like an athlete, just like a musician, you have to practice and you have to think about what's going on. So it's not just about practicing, you have to reflect. So you have to have some tools in the toolkit. One, you have to be able to very quickly connect with the people that you're talking to, so you have to understand what's important to them, what's relevant for them. And once you do that, that helps you hone. And as you engage in that communication, you might adjust your hypothesis. I, I might have gone in thinking, "Hey, this is what's really important to them." As I hear them respond to me, "Oh, all of a sudden this." So we have to have that flexibility, but we start from somewhere. You have to be able to leverage structure, because in a structure, it helps me respond to you. You know, I, I'm a lousy cook, but I made a better cook by following a recipe, so having a structure helps you. And there are lots of structures. My favorite in the whole world is three simple questions: What? So what? Now what? So if you ask me a question, I can answer the question by saying, "What? That's my answer." "So what? Here's why it's important to you." And, "Now what? Here's what you can do with it." In fact, many of my answers to your questions so far have done exactly that. I've gone, used what, so what, now what. If you ask me for feedback, you say, "Hey, Matt, how'd that meeting go?" I can say, "I thought that meeting went really well, except when you talked about the implementation plan." That's the what. "When you talked about the implementation plan, you talked quickly and didn't give as much detail, and when you do that, people think you're nervous or not prepared." That's the so what. "Next time, slow down and add these two di- bits of information." That's the now what. So by having a structure, and by really figuring out what's important in this moment, I have the ability to adjust and adapt.

   3. CWChris Williamson21:20

      Okay. The thing that happened that was salient, the implication of that thing happening-

   4. MAMatt Abrahams21:26

      Yep.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:26

      ... and a, and a solution in future to try and avoid the thing from happening. Or, I guess, the reverse of that, a great thing that happened, uh, the implication of this great thing happening, and please do it again more in future, I thought that that was totally awesome.

   6. MAMatt Abrahams21:40

      That's a great way to give feedback, absolutely. What, so what, now what. If you think about it that way... And this, this structure can be used. I call it the Swiss Army knife of structures 'cause you can use it in so many ways. Many of the things I've explained when I've explained a principle to you, I said what the principle is, why it's important, and how it plays out. It's just a useful place to start from. Not everything you say has to be in that structure, but knowing you can default to that frees up your resources to really connect and engage.

   7. CWChris Williamson22:10

      What about people that feel like the words sort of get stuck in their brain or their, their throat or their tongue-

   8. MAMatt Abrahams22:17

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson22:18

      ... and (stutters) I want to be nimble with the way that I'm back and forth, but-

   10. MAMatt Abrahams22:23

       Correct.

   11. CWChris Williamson22:23

       ... for some reason, it just, it doesn't seem to come out the way I want.

   12. MAMatt Abrahams22:26

       Uh, so I have a couple thoughts here. One, with enough time, people often can fix that problem. There, there is a built-in desire in spontaneous communication to respond immediately. It's okay to take a beat. Somebody asks you a question, you can say, "Let me think about that for a second." There's nothing wrong with that. That's not our first instinct, though. Or I can ask a question, a follow-up question, a clarifying question. That gives me time. I can paraphrase what you said, again building in time. And the ability, using questions and paraphrasing are also other tools you can use not just to buy time, but if I'm in an interaction where I'm feeling a little tongue-tied and not sure what to say, I can contribute a question or just paraphrase what's been going on in the interaction. That's a very, either of those are meaningful contributions that don't require the same level of risk and deep thinking that actually speaking in the moment does. So if you're part of a meeting and you feel like, "I want to contribute, but I just don't know what to say," just ask a question or just paraphrase. So what we've really been talking about for the last few minutes is this. That's an incredibly helpful step in communication, and it gives you time and builds courage to actually say more meaningful things.

7. 23:40 – 28:21

   No Such Thing as a Stupid Question

   1. MAMatt Abrahams23:40

   2. CWChris Williamson23:40

      I've found... I mean, you'll be episode 940 or something on the show in the last, in the last seven years. So I've spent a lot of time, again, being the most stupid person in the room and, and having to ask questions. And, uh, certainly for me, one of the most effective mindsets to be in is that there is no such thing as a stupid question.

   3. MAMatt Abrahams24:00

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson24:00

      And it does sound kind of trite, but, uh, if you're not sure, it's not your job to be sure.But you- you- this person that's trying to explain this thing to you, it is their job to convince, explain, e- e- elaborate to the point where you feel, "Huh, I get it now."

   5. MAMatt Abrahams24:19

      That's right.

   6. CWChris Williamson24:19

      It's not your, it's not your job to arrive at their conclusion. That's their job-

   7. MAMatt Abrahams24:24

      That's right.

   8. CWChris Williamson24:24

      ...to get you to arrive at the conclusion. So yeah-

   9. MAMatt Abrahams24:26

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson24:26

       ...when I'm in a conversation, I'm like, "I don't understand that. Hey, what? Sorry, I'm going to have to interrupt because I don't understand the word that you just meant."

   11. MAMatt Abrahams24:32

       That's right.

   12. CWChris Williamson24:33

       Uh, uh, and the more confident you are in asking what may on the surface seem like stupid questions, it's also, I think, very endearing, because it allows the person opposite to go, "Yeah, okay, don't worry. I- I- I got you. I got..." Everyone wants to look after someone. What are you doing by asking them a simple question? You're kind of pedestalizing them in a little bit of a way, which makes them feel good. "Allow me, allow me to explain what the word verbose means to you. Allow me to, you know, descend-"

   13. MAMatt Abrahams25:01

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:01

       "...to the depths of, of a mere muggle like yourself." So yeah, I think, uh, I think that's a cool way to do it.

   15. MAMatt Abrahams25:07

       And- and you are masterful at it. I mean, I've watched your show, and you- you do a really good job of asking-

   16. CWChris Williamson25:11

       Thank you.

   17. MAMatt Abrahams25:12

       ...important questions. Now, I didn't just say you're stupid, because I don't think your questions are stupid questions. What I think they are is they are questions that you have, but they also represent questions that most people have. And a good communicator will appreciate that not only because you're doing your end of the interaction, you're- you're showing your interest, but you're actually, if- if somebody really takes a moment to reflect, you're helping me as the communicator get better. You're actually giving me input and insight that will make me better, because the next time I introduce this concept, I'm going to define the word verbose before I use it.

   18. CWChris Williamson25:45

       Exactly, yeah. There's, uh, some unsubstantiated claims, some gap in the narrative. Well-

   19. MAMatt Abrahams25:50

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson25:51

       ...why is that there? Well, it's because you thought that you'd explained it, but person that's a good avatar for everyone else you're ever going to speak to for the rest of your life comes in waving a flag of, with a question mark on it, and you go, "Ah, actually..." And yeah, look, you know, um, there may be some fledgling podcasters or YouTubers or whatever, uh, listening. The best... Again, another framework that I think about a lot when it comes to the show, is if you have a question about a thing, some non-zero minority, or maybe even significant majority of people are also thinking that same thing. Like you're not... You're lovely and you are a precious snowflake who deserves all the fruits that the world can offer you, but you're not that unique, right? Your, your inquiries, your curiosity, your questions are probably going to be pretty close to the bullseye of what everybody else is thinking, especially if you are the sort of person who is like your audience. And most people are like their audience, whether that's-

   21. MAMatt Abrahams26:52

       That's correct.

   22. CWChris Williamson26:53

       ...uh, the- the, uh, community that you work in, you're presenting at a conference somewhere, whether that's doing things on social media, like people resonate with people like them. So if you think a thing, they are probably, "Huh, I was wondering that question too about the future of climate change," or whatever it might be.

   23. MAMatt Abrahams27:09

       Right. I- I think the two most valuable skills of- of any conversationalist, but especially people who do what you do and what I do on my podcast, is the ability to ask questions and being willing to ask questions that are pretty rudimentary, and the ability to paraphrase, to demonstrate, "I heard you, and here's what I took away from you." And I think if you can do those two things, you are a good conversationalist, you set up the other person to be successful, and if you do what you and I do in terms of podcasting, et cetera, you help others learn as well. So those are two critical skills. I- I totally agree with you.

   24. CWChris Williamson27:42

       I've heard it be described as being an essentializer. So-

   25. MAMatt Abrahams27:45

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson27:45

       ...somebody goes-

   27. MAMatt Abrahams27:47

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson27:47

       ...you know, I speak to, uh-

   29. MAMatt Abrahams27:49

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson27:49

       ...real smart people sometimes as well as, uh, like some-
8. 28:21 – 35:40

   Questions to Build Connection

   1. CWChris Williamson28:21

      isn't a podcaster.

   2. MAMatt Abrahams28:22

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson28:22

      Uh, what are some of your favorite conversational questions or frameworks for questions to build connection between someone and somebody else?

   4. MAMatt Abrahams28:32

      Absolutely. I wanna, I wanna start... I'll answer that question by starting with the approach I think we need to take. And I learned this from a guest on my podcast, Think Fast Talk Smart, her name's Rachel Greenwald. Fascinating person. She's an academic and a matchmaker. Really interesting person. And what she said, when you're having conversation, it's about being interested, not being interesting. Many of us put a lot of pressure on ourselves to say something really interesting, insightful, and that- that can make it very challenging and make it very self-focused, and communication should be other focused. So rather than think about what's the right thing to say to unlock this conversation, just be interested in what's happening around you or something you know about the person. I like to give this example. I was at a conference, we went and heard all these people speak, and then it was time for dinner, and there was a, you know, a cocktail party afterwards or whatever. And I'm waiting in line, lots of people in line. There's this guy standing next to me, have no idea who he is, and I look around the room and everybody's dressed in blue. It's not uniforms, it's just coincidental. I turned to the guy and said, "I missed the memo on blue." And he looks around and said the same thing. That was all it took. We had a very engaging conversation. We left the color blue almost instantly, found lots of things in common-

   5. CWChris Williamson29:42

      Oh.

   6. MAMatt Abrahams29:42

      ...and we've now become close friends. When I travel to his part of the world, I visit him, he visits me. All you have to do is be interested and observe. It's about being outside yourself, not inside yourself. And if you do that, it changes the dynamic. Uh, the analogy I like to use is it's not like tennis or volleyball where you're trying to spike or ace the ball over the net. It's like that game of hacky sack where you've got that beanbag, and the whole idea is to serve it to the other person so they can serve it back to you. And if you do that, your conversation will be better. So we- we ratchet down the pressure and we make it easier to be interested.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:14

      Can I read you a short essay that I wrote about this a couple of months ago?

   8. MAMatt Abrahams30:17

      I would love to hear it, yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:19

      Okay, uh, Jennie Jerome, Winston Churchill's mother, once dined with both Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and his rival, William Gladstone, on consecutive nights. When asked about her impressions of the two men, she said, "When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England. But when I was sat next to Disraeli, I left feeling like I was the cleverest woman." Most people think that they want to be charismatic, they want their energy to be compelling and their stories to be electric, to walk into a room and everyone be impressed. But when I think about the friends I love and want to spend the most time with, they don't have charisma, they have reverse charisma. Why do certain people make us feel boring but others do not? Why do we feel full of stories and inspiration around some, but around others, we have nothing to say? We tend to assess people based on how interesting they are, but thereby miss a much more important issue, how interesting they make us feel. How engaged is this person? How much of us can they tolerate? How much of our reality can they handle without us editing ourselves? How encouraging and reassuring are they? How much do they make us want to dig deeper and talk more? How comfortably can we sit in silence without needing to fill it? Basically, how much of us do they get? And if it's not a lot, then we will inevitably be cautious. A person feels interesting precisely to the extent that they have become familiar and at ease with the things that are extreme, sad, dark, agonizing, and shameful. And if they're at home with their own strangeness, then they can make us feel at home with ours. Where they have gone, we can follow. What they have felt safe exploring in themselves, we will be able to safely unpack around them. Architecting a charisma is a nebulous, scrappy task that pickup artists gave themselves existential crises by failing at achieving. Building a reverse charisma is something that anyone can do by becoming curious, patient, and engaging. Some people feel interesting. Some people make us feel interesting. There's a place for both, but on average, our favorite people are the latter, not the former.

   10. MAMatt Abrahams32:10

       Not only is that incredibly well-written, thank you for sharing that-

   11. CWChris Williamson32:14

       Thank you.

   12. MAMatt Abrahams32:14

       ... but it highlights exactly what we were talking about. And what you're really identifying there is this notion of immediacy, and in some cases, people would call it intimacy. It's not the romantic, sexual kind of intimacy, but there's a, a genuine desire to connect, and that's a lot of what i- intimacy and immediacy are about. There's an invitation that's made that's beyond me. It's inviting you to be your best self, and I really like how you captured that. Thank you for sharing that.

   13. CWChris Williamson32:42

       My pleasure. Um, Will Storr, do you know him? He wrote The Science of Storytelling, The Status Game.

   14. MAMatt Abrahams32:48

       Yes.

   15. CWChris Williamson32:48

       So, uh, he was on the show yesterday. His new book, A S- A Story Is a Deal, and he was talking about characters and heroes.

   16. MAMatt Abrahams32:56

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson32:56

       And I said, "Okay, so how do you write a character or a hero that is popular that, that, you know, goes down well?" And he said, "Well, people think that they need a character to be likable. They don't. People resonate with characters they identify with-"

   18. MAMatt Abrahams33:13

       Correct.

   19. CWChris Williamson33:13

       "... not with people that they like." And I thought that was such a lovely distinction, and, you know, it's not too dissimilar to the reverse charisma idea, right?

   20. MAMatt Abrahams33:21

       Yes, yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson33:21

       Don't come in and be impressive.

   22. MAMatt Abrahams33:23

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson33:23

       Come in and connect with me.

   24. MAMatt Abrahams33:24

       Right, but underlying what you said, underlying what he said, is this notion of you have to know and understand who you're speaking to, because you can't connect or relate to them or put a character forward that might connect and relate to them without understanding who they are. We, uh, we walk around so internally focused that we, we are missing an opportunity to connect with others and to really think about what's important and what's needed for them in the moment. And it takes a little bit of reconnaissance, reflection, and research to think about who you're speaking to, writing for, et cetera, but when you do it, you can unlock that reverse charisma. You can help people identify.

   25. CWChris Williamson34:02

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MAMatt Abrahams34:02

       You can connect better.

   27. CWChris Williamson34:04

       Yeah, I imagine even, uh, a lot of what we've talked about today is intention, right?

   28. MAMatt Abrahams34:09

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson34:10

       In-tention, not intention. That, uh, too much... Uh, God, (laughs) the, what was the book that advised, uh, people to use the first name of the person they're speaking to? Was it How To Win Friends and Influence People? That it seems-

   30. MAMatt Abrahams34:23

       Yeah. Dale Carnegie definitely talked about that, yes.
9. 35:40 – 40:05

   Surprising Stats About Communication

   1. CWChris Williamson35:40

      uh, sort of stats, data, studies that you've come across with regards to sort of this area of communication? I imagine e- e- everybody is so in, i- inside of the woodland that they can't see any of the trees with regards to this, but I imagine there must be some wild stats from conversation analysis and, and, and stuff like that that really sort of brings home the things that you've been saying so far.

   2. MAMatt Abrahams36:03

      Well, let me tell you two things that come to mind. So academics have identified this, this, um, theory they call the spotlight effect. So we all walk around carrying this spotlight that we see si- shining on us-... and we think everybody else is following that light, so they're all looking at us in the spotlight. But the reality is, we're all walking around with our own spotlights. There's a New Yorker cartoon where you literally s- like, you know in hospitals where people carry around those IV bags when they walk around? Uh, it, it's a cartoon that shows people walking around with their own spotlights. And the point is this, uh, and the research bears this out, we are so self-focused and worried about how others see us that we're not spending enough of our attention pa- and to others. So the fear is unfounded. The spotlight effect is saying our concern about others' perceptions of us is unfounded. The other piece that I think is interesting based on what we've said, people who study conversations look at turn-taking, and there're really two types of turns, 'cause if you think about it, a conversation is I speak, you speak, et cetera. We're turn-taking. There are two types of turns. There are supporting turns, and then there are turns that shift, shifting turns. So a supporting turn might be that you tell me you just came back from Hawaii, you took a vacation to Hawaii, and I, a supporting turn would say, "Oh, what island did you visit?" Or I could use a shifting turn where I say, "Oh, I just got back from Costa Rica." Do you see how that shifts the topic? What the research s- shows is that many of us use more shifting turns than supportive turns, but the research also shows when you use more supporting turns, you actually endear, connect, and get deeper with the person. So the advice that many of us who study this suggest is you'd like at least two-thirds to three-quarters of your conversational turns to be supporting-

   3. CWChris Williamson37:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MAMatt Abrahams37:44

      ... and then the rest to be shifting. If you do all shifting, then you look distancing, and like you don't care, and you're a narcissist.

   5. CWChris Williamson37:51

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MAMatt Abrahams37:51

      And if all you do is supportive turns, it looks like you don't want to talk about yourself at all and you're hiding something.

   7. CWChris Williamson37:56

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MAMatt Abrahams37:56

      So you want this nice blend. So between the spotlight effect and the shifting and, and supporting turn-taking, I think those are some topics that people might not think about and might, might be counterintuitive.

   9. CWChris Williamson38:08

      Yeah. It, it definitely feels more like a dance than a battle when you're talking about supportive turn-

   10. MAMatt Abrahams38:13

       Ah, yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson38:13

       ... as opposed to shifting turns.

   12. MAMatt Abrahams38:15

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson38:16

       Uh, the, I mean, you'll know this from doing your show, but you, I don't use notes to-

   14. MAMatt Abrahams38:21

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson38:21

       ... to keep track of what's being said. Um, and if you've got a particularly meandering guest-

   16. MAMatt Abrahams38:27

       Yes. (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson38:28

       ... and, uh, you know, the, they can talk. You, you've got, you know, f- t- ten different branches open. I, I don't like open loops. I'm like the p- I'm like patient zero for the zeigarnik effect. So I'll, all I want, all I want to do is, I've got, you know, this r- my RAM, my mental RAM is slowly being consumed by, "Well, I must remember to speak to him about his mother, and what was that thing about pasta?"

   18. MAMatt Abrahams38:47

       Yeah, yeah, exactly.

   19. CWChris Williamson38:48

       "There was a story about France in the 1800s." I'm like, okay-

   20. MAMatt Abrahams38:51

       Right. Too much, too much.

   21. CWChris Williamson38:51

       ... l- hold on to all of these things. Yeah, exactly.

   22. MAMatt Abrahams38:53

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson38:53

       And then I'm like, okay, so we're just going to go back to this thing, and then can we just go back to that thing? And can we just go back to this thing? Correct.

   24. MAMatt Abrahams38:57

       But that's, I suppose, aggressive shifting turns even within someone's own story. "Oh, I, I must tell you about this." I, ugh, dude-

   25. CWChris Williamson39:04

       Yeah.

   26. MAMatt Abrahams39:04

       ... like, you've, you've managed to, you haven't stopped and you've gone in three different directions.

   27. CWChris Williamson39:08

       Right.

   28. MAMatt Abrahams39:08

       I don't know whether you know who Rory Sutherland is. He's the vice chairman of Ogilvy.

   29. CWChris Williamson39:12

       Yes.

   30. MAMatt Abrahams39:12

       Trying to have a conversation with Rory is like a unstoppable force meeting an immovable object or something. I'm like, but he's both of them. I'm like, okay, you're just having a war against yourself, and, um ... But his stories are delightful, s-
10. 40:05 – 48:25

    Getting Rid of Filler Words

    1. CWChris Williamson40:05

       What's your advice for people who feel like they overuse filler words?

    2. MAMatt Abrahams40:10

       Ah. So couple things here. This comes up often. Filler words, ums, uhs, likes, I means, these are a normal and natural part of speech. In fact, there's some good research that says when kids are younger, parents will often insert a filler word, not strategically, it's just habitual, before they say something that's important or new to the kid. So we have actually learned as young children that when you hear s- a filler word, something important is following it. And the problem is, if what the important thing following it is another um or uh, then we become very distracted. So the goal is not eliminating these. However, we want to make sure that they, we don't have so many that they are interruptive, that they, they distract. So this, the, it's hard to do, but the single best way to get rid of the filler words that are most annoying, and those are the ones that come between thoughts, so when I'm done speaking, um, and then I start speaking again, that one sits out there and is very distractive. You can reduce these or eliminate them by controlling your breath. Try this for me. Do this activity for me if you're willing to play along. I'd like you to say the word um while exhaling. So we'll do it together. On the count of three, let's both say um while pushing air out. Ready? One, two, three. Um.

    3. CWChris Williamson41:23

       Um.

    4. MAMatt Abrahams41:23

       Now I want you to do the same thing while inhaling. Ready? One, two, three.

    5. CWChris Williamson41:27

       (inhales) Can't do it.

    6. MAMatt Abrahams41:28

       You can't do it. You can't speak while inhaling. It's, speaking is an exit-only event. So here's the magic trick. If at the end of my sentences and phrases I train myself to be completely out of breath, I must inhale before I can say something else. And you d-

    7. CWChris Williamson41:44

       You've got no fuel for the um.

    8. MAMatt Abrahams41:46

       That's exactly right. And you build in a pause while you're taking the breath, and pauses are good. So this is not easy. The way you practice this is reciting lists of things. So I, I instruct my students, the people I coach, look at your diary or calendar, whatever you call it. Most of us refer to it multiple times a day. One of those times a day you look at it, simply speak out loud what's on your schedule. And at the end of each item that you speak, land the phrase. Be out of breath. So I might say, "Doing lunch with Chris."... recording a podcast with whoever, and at the end, I'm completely out of breath. And I begin to train myself to land my phrases. Think of a gymnast who sticks their landing.

    9. CWChris Williamson42:27

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MAMatt Abrahams42:27

        And when you do that, you take, you literally take the oxygen out of the ability to say filler words. It takes a little bit of practice, but if you do it, you will reduce them and you will reduce the distractions that too many ums and uhs cause.

    11. CWChris Williamson42:39

        What is the evidence around, uh, rated likability, authenticity, expertise, prestige, status of people who use ums, uhs, likes versus pauses, length of pauses, that sort of stuff? I know that there's a, a big body of literature around this. I just don't know the literature.

    12. MAMatt Abrahams43:00

        Yeah. So there is a threshold for most people where a certain number of ums and uhs is acceptable, and then you cross over it. If you look ... So, a- and I can't remember the exact number of how many most of us have, but in a given two-minute, five-minute interaction, there are m- multiple that we typically do in conversation, and that does not impact our liking, our status, our perceptions that others have. But when you, when you 2X that, multiply that twice over, then it becomes very distracting. And interestingly, it's where they come as well. So if I start with um, versus in the midst of speaking, um, and I keep speaking, or at the end, it has different perceptions. So it's not just the number, it's where they're happening.

    13. CWChris Williamson43:47

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MAMatt Abrahams43:47

        The ones in the midst of communication are the least bothersome. The ones at the end of communication before the next part starts are the most bothersome. So if you're going to work on these, it's not about eliminating period, but it's not about managing all of them. Focus on the ones that come at the end of your sentences. Those are the most bothersome to people.

    15. CWChris Williamson44:06

        What about like? Like seems to be peppered more, m- more akin to a shotgun than a, a, a, a pause, a breath, a-

    16. MAMatt Abrahams44:16

        Yes.

    17. CWChris Williamson44:17

        ... a pending loading screen.

    18. MAMatt Abrahams44:18

        So neurolinguists, uh, geek out on the word like, and like is used for so many purposes, and the younger you are, the more (laughs) conversant you are in using like, uh, and like can signal I like something. Like can say, I have something to say. Like ca- it replaces the word says or said, uh, and, and it serves a lot of purposes depending on the wha- the research I am aware of, based on your age, it differentially bothers you. So people who are of my vintage-

    19. CWChris Williamson44:50

        (laughs)

    20. MAMatt Abrahams44:50

        ... tend to be bothered more by the word like than somebody perhaps of your vintage or even younger, right? So it's what you grow up being accustomed to. And again, language evolves, and it's evolving that like is becoming much more acceptable and people are using it more. Um, for me personally, it is annoying, and I have two kids that are of the generation where it's not, and we spend a lot of time like talking about like. (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson45:20

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MAMatt Abrahams45:20

        And so, so it, it's, it's a tricky thing. We're in the midst of an evolution on that term, and those old fuddy duddies like myself are, are gonna be on the losing end of it.

    23. CWChris Williamson45:30

        Interesting. I've, I get the sense that it, it is here to stay.

    24. MAMatt Abrahams45:37

        Yes.

    25. CWChris Williamson45:37

        I think it's definitely serving a purpose in that regard.

    26. MAMatt Abrahams45:40

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson45:40

        Um, helping people to approximate their conclusions or their proclamations about things. Uh, uh, it, it's close to this. It's similar to this. It is a thing that's, that's appropriating this. Uh, that ... I, I wonder where that comes from that I, I suppose it's not imprecision, but it's a, it's giving you a little bit more room with vagueness in-

    28. MAMatt Abrahams46:09

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson46:09

        ... in that kind of way. And I wonder whether there's a concern about being fully seen there.

    30. MAMatt Abrahams46:14

        Mm.
11. 48:25 – 52:13

    Importance of Confidence in Communication

    1. CWChris Williamson48:25

       overrated when it comes to speaking, do you think?

    2. MAMatt Abrahams48:28

       I think confidence is essential. Uh, it's hard-wired in us to pay attention to, to those that are confident and those that aren't. Now, when we talk about confidence, I'm not talking about over-indexing and being arrogant or super over-confident. Uh, you know, I teach at one of the world's best business schools. We spend a lot of time talking about arrogance. It's not about that. But it is about having confidence, not only in yourself, but in the messages that you communicate, and finding that nice balance of managing the anxiety, the passion that you have. That really makes a difference. Those are �� ingredient, ingredients that go into charisma. We, we really don't know what charisma is, but having confidence in yourself and in your content is a, an important part of that.

    3. CWChris Williamson49:11

       How much of it is feeling confident and how much of it is saying the things that portray confidence?

    4. MAMatt Abrahams49:17

       That's a great question, and it's one that I don't think we have a good answer to. Uh, you know, confident people act confidently. If you act confidently, you can actually become confident. So it's, it's a mix. Certainly we are good at detecting people who are putting on airs, so it has to be authentic and it has to be ... come from a place of, of, you know, knowing who you are.

    5. CWChris Williamson49:38

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MAMatt Abrahams49:39

       G- we are very good at detecting people who are, are putting on those airs. But it's, it's ... I ... it's hard to dis- disentangle those two. They're, they're ... What you do and how you do it are, are mixed very closely.

    7. CWChris Williamson49:50

       Yeah, why you're motivated to do it, how, how authentic is this.

    8. MAMatt Abrahams49:54

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson49:54

       You know, it's the, the classic charlatan traveling salesperson, you know, the slick-

    10. MAMatt Abrahams49:59

        Right. Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson49:59

        ... guy at your front door. Um, certainly in my experience you can sort of fake it until you make it and then make it until you believe it, uh-

    12. MAMatt Abrahams50:11

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson50:12

        ... as, as this process as it goes round. But I wonder, I wonder how much ... Really trying to reinforce identification is more important than likeability, and connection is more important than charisma.

    14. MAMatt Abrahams50:31

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson50:31

        That we ... If someone walks out on stage and they're a little ... You know, they call that the elephant in the room. Like, "Dude-"

    16. MAMatt Abrahams50:37

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson50:37

        "... it is, it is so hot in here I'm just gonna sweat through my shirt through the entirety of this thing."

    18. MAMatt Abrahams50:42

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson50:43

        You ... The, the sweat now is no longer a big deal. You know, everyone's laughing about it. "Anyone else in here hot? Yeah, I'm dying too." Um, and-

    20. MAMatt Abrahams50:49

        Right.

    21. CWChris Williamson50:49

        ... away you go. I think the other side of this, we were talking about some of those tensions that exist.

    22. MAMatt Abrahams50:55

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson50:56

        Uh, another tension here is the sort of, not performative fool but the performative nervousness. You know, the over-eagging of, of this, uh, sympathy vote, the kind of myth of martyrdom type thing.

    24. MAMatt Abrahams51:11

        Right.

    25. CWChris Williamson51:11

        "Oh, it's been a long day preparing for this, guys. You know it's gonna be a little bit of a tough one to ..." Blah, blah, blah.

    26. MAMatt Abrahams51:16

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson51:16

        You ... And after a while you think, "Okay, you've drained my sympathy tank and you're now getting into my manipulation radar."

    28. MAMatt Abrahams51:23

        Yeah. I, I 100% agree with that. Uh, what we know from research is that somebody who comes out and says, "Oh, I'm so nervous. Uh, please forgive me," what, what we're hoping for is that people will give you a little bit of a pass, lower their bar. But in fact all you do is over-sensitize them to pay attention to anything you do that confirms that you're nervous.

    29. CWChris Williamson51:44

        Oh, no.

    30. MAMatt Abrahams51:44

        So, so you're actually working against yourself. So I, I often advise people to connect with your audience, but don't pre-apologize. My wife, long time ago, disabused me of the ability to pre-apologize. So, you know, don't do it. Just come out and, and start the talk. Now, if there is something in the room, in the space, I do agree if it's super hot in there, acknowledge it. Don't try to, to, to pretend. But don't pre-apologize for being nervous. That just gets ... sets you up for failure.
12. 52:13 – 54:01

    Warming Up Your Voice

    1. CWChris Williamson52:13

       thing we maybe haven't gone through, the, the biomechanics of the mouth and tongue.

    2. MAMatt Abrahams52:19

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson52:19

       Getting that actually going.

    4. MAMatt Abrahams52:21

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson52:21

       What are your favorite methods ... Someone's got five minutes before they need to go out on stage. They haven't done my favorite hack, which is to just have a ton of friends backstage and-

    6. MAMatt Abrahams52:31

       Yes.

    7. CWChris Williamson52:31

       ... uh, warm up by doing. Uh, what is a, an effective way that somebody can solo their way to a, a mobile mouth and tongue?

    8. MAMatt Abrahams52:42

       (laughs) I l- ... I, I, I agree with you. That's, uh ... The best way for, for me is to talk to other people. What I do when I don't have that opportunity, I say tongue-twisters. I, I say the same tongue-twister three times out loud. It warms up my voice and it also helps me get present-oriented. Remember, being present-oriented allows you to connect, gets you out of your head. So I will say, in fact I said before you and I connected today, I said my, my favorite one, "I slit a sheet, a sheet I slit, and on that slitted sheet I sit." And I say it three times fast.

    9. CWChris Williamson53:12

       (laughs)

    10. MAMatt Abrahams53:13

        And, and it ... And the challenge in saying that one is, if you say it wrong you say a naughty word. And so I, I, I ... It forces me to focus. Warming up is important. Anybody who does a sport, anybody who exercises, you know that warming up is important. You need to warm up your voice. Y- Th- We have this, this idea that we can go from silence to brilliance easily, and that's not the case.

    11. CWChris Williamson53:35

        Yeah. It's ... The more that ... I, I, I've worked with a speech coach, Miles, for a long time now, and he's obsessed with the articulation of the mouth and the way that the tongue-

    12. MAMatt Abrahams53:45

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson53:45

        ... and, and, and the mouth works.

    14. MAMatt Abrahams53:46

        Yeah. Yep.

    15. CWChris Williamson53:47

        And the level of, uh, how would you say, oral gymnastics that he's got me to jump through in an attempt to try (laughs) and get me ready for TED Talks and live shows and-

    16. MAMatt Abrahams53:56

        Yeah, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson53:56

        ... all sorts of things, I, I really love that. I guess w- ... The ...

13. 54:01 – 55:59

    How to Make Meaningful Small Talk

    1. CWChris Williamson54:01

       We've gone from important presentation, uh, meaningful connection, and then the dreaded lowest end of the funnel, the, the, the front door small talk.

    2. MAMatt Abrahams54:14

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:14

       What can people do to make small talk feel a bit more meaningful and less painful, stuff like that?

    4. MAMatt Abrahams54:21

       Yeah. So, uh, again, I think it starts with being interested, not interesting. I think we should ...... give ourselves a goal for small talk. Am I here just to pass the time? Am I here to learn something new? Am I here to make some connections in the short term or the long term? So making small talk purposeful is a way to make it more enjoyable and to help you focus your way through it. Now, I'm not saying that, that small talk becomes strategic communication, and we're, we're trying to manipulate people towards our point of view. But many of us don't like it because of its ambiguity, and you can give it some purpose and some meaning. And one of the, two of the big things that cause people concern is how do I start it and how do I end it? We talked about ways to start through observation, through questions. Uh, a w- a great way to end, again, coming from this Rachel Greenwald woman, was this notion, she calls it waving the r- the white flag. Not for surrender, but at the end of an auto race, they'll w- wave the white flag to signal the last lap. So when I want to get out of a small talk situation, rather than rely on biology, which is what most of us do, "Oh, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty, I have to go to the bathroom," instead, you say something like, "I've really enjoyed this conversation. In a few minutes, I'm going to go talk to folks over there. But before I leave," and then you ask one more question or dive into one more topic. So you're signaling the conversation is coming to an end, so everybody knows it, and then you have a little bit more of engagement, and then you separate. So everybody's prepared, nobody's surprised, everybody can figure out what they're going to do next. So if you know how to get into it, if you have a purpose for doing it, and you know how to get out of it, all of a sudden small talk becomes a place where big things can happen, and it can help us to feel good about it and enjoy it.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:58

       I

14. 55:59 – 57:36

    The Keys to a Strong Apology

    1. CWChris Williamson55:59

       spoke to, uh, Will yesterday about his favorite and worst apologies of all time, and he actually used the CEO of Domino's.

    2. MAMatt Abrahams56:08

       Oh.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:08

       Apparently, there was this thing, it happened sort of 20- 2007, and these couple of workers had put a video of them picking their nose and putting it on Domino's pizza, and it was-

    4. MAMatt Abrahams56:20

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson56:20

       ... a catastrophe and all this other stuff happened.

    6. MAMatt Abrahams56:22

       Yeah, yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson56:22

       And he explained that. What, in your experience, uh, are the key ingredients of a meaningful apology?

    8. MAMatt Abrahams56:30

       First is acknowledgement. You have to acknowledge what was done. You have to demonstrate, "I get it. I overspoke when you were speaking," or, "I inserted myself too quickly into the conversation." So acknowledge it. Then express that you have an appreciation for the feeling that the other person might have said. So we don't apologize for how we made someone feel. We apologize for what we did. And then you have to make amends. You have to say, "What I'll do..." So I might say, "I'm very sorry that I interrupted you in that meeting. I can imagine that felt, uh, dis- diminishing and put you in a bad light. I am going to not only wait 'til you're done communicating in future meetings, but I'm going to paraphrase what you said before I contribute my part." That's a complete apology. Now, somebody might not be happy with it. They might not like the action that you've set, set forth in your amends piece, but that to me is a complete apology.

    9. CWChris Williamson57:25

       Yeah. I have definitely managed to get it wrong a number of times in both ways.

    10. MAMatt Abrahams57:30

        Me too. (laughs) We're human. Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:32

        Yeah. There's a, there's a defensiveness that comes through with that. Matt, let's bring this

15. 57:36 – 58:27

    Where to Find Matt

    1. CWChris Williamson57:36

       one home. Dude, I think this kind of conversational analysis and advice is super practical, and you're awesome. And it, that was a, uh, tour de force through all of the big questions everyone's got. So where should people go if they want to keep up to date with all the things that you've got going on?

    2. MAMatt Abrahams57:50

       Well, first and foremost, thank you. I really enjoyed the conversation, and your ability to dive deep and then bring it up to the high level is, is masterful. Um, I'd love for people to listen to Think Fast, Talk Smart. It's all about communication, 20-minute episodes. You can find them anywhere, including YouTube. Uh, fastersmarter.io, place to go, uh, to find me. And if you're on LinkedIn, I do a lot of work on LinkedIn and the other socials too. Thank you for the, for this opportunity.

    3. CWChris Williamson58:14

       Heck yeah. Matt, I appreciate you. Thank you.

    4. MAMatt Abrahams58:16

       Thank you.

    5. CWChris Williamson58:17

       Congratulations, you made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? (instrumental music) Come on.

Episode duration: 58:27