The App That's Reprogramming Your Mind - Zack Telander

1. 0:00 – 1:22

   Intro

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      "There's a substantial body of research showing a strong association between smartphone addiction, shrinkage of the brain's gray matter, and 'digital dementia,' an umbrella term for the onset of anxiety and depression and the deterioration of memory, attention span, self-esteem, and impulse control. Crucially, the last of those increases the addiction." It's using, weaponizing, commercializing, and leveraging pleasure to sedate people into the outcomes that it wants. I have a bone to pick with you before we get into today's episode.

   2. ZTZack Telander0:31

      Okay.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:31

      What's this, for the people that are just, uh, listening?

   4. ZTZack Telander0:35

      Zevia. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson0:37

      What's, what, how would you describe this? This would be a can of, of Zevia, wouldn't it?

   6. ZTZack Telander0:41

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:42

      You know what I'm going to say to you, don't you?

   8. ZTZack Telander0:44

      I've been drinking those since you've been gone.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:46

      (laughs)

   10. ZTZack Telander0:47

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson0:47

       For the people that don't know, we live in separate houses on the same plot of land, and I erroneously gave you the access code to my back door. You-

   12. ZTZack Telander0:56

       No, in all fairness-

   13. CWChris Williamson0:56

       While I've been away-

   14. ZTZack Telander0:57

       ... you didn't give it to me. Our landlord gave it to us-

   15. CWChris Williamson0:59

       Right, okay.

   16. ZTZack Telander1:00

       ... Christopher.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00

       You've been going into my house, my fridge-

   18. ZTZack Telander1:04

       (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson1:05

       ... and you left me one Zevia.

   20. ZTZack Telander1:09

       Yeah, yeah, you know, at least I left you one. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson1:12

       (laughs) You're a mother- Ah, okay, anyway, uh, getting on. TikTok,

2. 1:22 – 20:46

   TikTok Is Destroying the West

   1. CWChris Williamson1:22

      one of my very good friends, Gwinda, that's been on the show three or four times, wrote a phenomenal article about TikTok, and I wanna go through it today with you. So, "In a survey asking American and Chinese children what job they most wanted, the top answer among Chinese kids was 'astronaut,' and the top answer among American children was 'influencer.' Since 1970, the Western average IQ has been steadily falling, at least in part due to ease of access to entertainment. So even if you're able to use your brain, the goals that you work toward are more pointless." You're a TikTok user, right?

   2. ZTZack Telander1:57

      Yep. Y- yeah, like, uh, it's, uh, the, the article's amazing, and everyone should, should definitely give it a read. Um, but I think one of the, like, there's, there's different sections to this, uh, and I think the top line actually, if I'd, if I'm not mistaken, the most downloaded, the most successful app in history, and the reason it's most successful app in history is because of a multitude of different factors, but a lot of it is like this, um, work to reward ratio, and it's very slanted towards the reward.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:33

      That's correct.

   4. ZTZack Telander2:33

      The least amount of work you can do, the most dialed in algorithm to feed you as quickly as possible, and, um, that is something that I didn't even know was happening to me when I downloaded TikTok, uh, but I remember one night I stayed up until like 5:30 in the morning, and I was probably on it from 2:00, no, I was probably on it from like midnight to 5:30. And it felt like I didn't even do anything. That was like... And, and then I realized like, "Wait a minute, you can't go to sleep at 5:30 in the morning and be a regular human being." Um, that's strictly because of TikTok, and so then I was able to mitigate that.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:09

      Yeah. So-

   6. ZTZack Telander3:10

      For sure.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:11

      ... uh, this article from Gwinda, I'm gonna go through a little bit of it now for the people that haven't read it, uh, this will give you a nice overview. So previously, you would have gone to war with your enemies by using weapons of pain, right? You would have sieged them inside of their castle, you would have cut off the food supplies, you would have tortured people, you would have killed them with axes. But this is the first pleasure weapon of mass destruction rather than a pain weapon of mass destruction. It's using, weaponizing, commercializing, and leveraging pleasure to sedate people into the outcomes that it wants. The reason that TikTok is able to learn your preferences so fast is because the shortness of the videos allows it to iterate much more quickly. It's also supposedly using the front-facing camera-

   8. ZTZack Telander3:55

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:55

      ... to detect facial expressions. Do you see that little bit?

   10. ZTZack Telander3:58

       Yeah, that was, okay, so that one was the one that really freaked me out. But I, there's a part of TikTok that, like there are these viral trends that happen where people scan their face on it, and then it like shows like an animal that they look like or the AI generation of what it is. I'm like, you realize we're just scanning our faces like to a, a perfect degree and then publishing it out on the internet and like the AI can just continually use that. I mean, e- everyone's face is pretty much dialed in now.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:27

       Wasn't there that, uh, there was that app Age Yourself, Agefey or something-

   12. ZTZack Telander4:31

       Yes.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:31

       ... do you remember, when everyone made themselves look older that was maybe-

   14. ZTZack Telander4:34

       Yep.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:34

       ... three or four years ago?

   16. ZTZack Telander4:34

       And then somebody said, "Hey, don't do this because they're creating a database with your facial features." Yeah, TikTok is doing that every single day.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:41

       So you can actually go onto TikTok's website and in the developer tools on the backend, which is linked in Gwinda's article, it shows the different categories that it's, it, this is already built in. This is already-

   18. ZTZack Telander4:51

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:51

       ... available for developers on TikTok. It's out there on, it's like tiktok.com/features/ some other bullshit. Um, okay, so TikTok is able to learn preferences quickly 'cause of how short the videos are.

   20. ZTZack Telander5:04

       Right.

   21. CWChris Williamson5:04

       That's really interesting, right? Because, you know, you can iterate so fast through these different preferences. Uh, acts that this has included from being on TikTok, none of which I knew about, include licking toilets, snorting suntan lotion, eating chicken cooked in NyQuil, and stealing cars. One challenge known as Devious Licks encourages kids to vandalize property. I think that was actually toilets. Uh, while the blackout challenge in which kids-

   22. ZTZack Telander5:31

       No, Devious Licks, Devious Lick, like doing a lick is like doing like a, a vandalism thing.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:37

       Oh, okay, okay.

   24. ZTZack Telander5:37

       So it wasn't the toilet thing. That's a total, that's a separate lick, Chris-

   25. CWChris Williamson5:40

       No, but-

   26. ZTZack Telander5:41

       Okay?

   27. CWChris Williamson5:42

       No, the-

   28. ZTZack Telander5:43

       Licking... (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson5:43

       No, no, no, no, no. Licking toilets, yes, but the Devious Licks was done on toilets as well. The vandalism-

   30. ZTZack Telander5:49

       Oh, right, they would like explode toilets and stuff.
3. 20:46 – 24:58

   Grammarly Has Turned Woke

   1. CWChris Williamson20:46

      come up against, Grammarly, Grammarly getting themselves into trouble in one of our group chats.

   2. ZTZack Telander20:52

      Yep.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:52

      And this is the first time that I've ever heard about this. And then Michaela Peterson slipstreamed me and tweeted about it yesterday, so I'm gonna do a video about it instead.

   4. ZTZack Telander20:59

      (laughs) I love that.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:00

      I can't believe it. So, one of our friends who uses Grammarly to help him with the writing that he does for emails, it looks like it's maybe a Gmail screenshot that he sent here, which Dean will put up on the screen, and it says, uh, "Hi guys. Hope you're doing well. I've attached our new onboarding," blah, blah, blah. And Grammarly highlights stuff kind of the way that you would do in Google 1... Yeah, Google Docs. Everything would be red. This is purple. And it considers, uh, it gives you suggestions. Underneath guys, "Consider using more inclusive language. Alternatives are everyone, all, team and folks." And the tip is, "Some readers may find the term guys non-inclusive. If your intended meaning applies to all people, a gender-neutral term may be more effective." So, I did a little bit of research, right? Did a little bit of research and I decided that I was going to have a read of, uh, to do some more digging and see if Grammarly's ever been pulled up before. It actually has. This guy, David Mokotoff, wrote an article on Medium, uh, How Grammarly Checking Software Has Become Infected With Woke Lingo. Uh, "A funny thing happened while I was working on a story for Medium. I always use Grammarly, a grammar checking software. The algorithm didn't like the word indignant. Grammarly told me that the phrase impoverished was a better choice. I ignored the suggestion. In another story, I was again prompted to not use a word. The word was manpower. Suggestion was workforce or human resources or staffing. Some readers may find manpower dated or non-inclusive in this context. To avoid distraction, comp- consider replacing it with a more neutral term." And then he tried manhole, which was suggested to be changed to maintenance hole or utility hole.

   6. ZTZack Telander22:45

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson22:45

      "Some readers may find manhole dated or non-inclusive in this context-"

   8. ZTZack Telander22:49

      No, dude.

   9. CWChris Williamson22:49

      "... to avoid distraction." Um, he also tried manatee, but, uh, Grammarly seemed to be okay with manatee. Manhole, manpower, not okay. Manatee-

   10. ZTZack Telander23:00

       (laughs) Goddamn it.

   11. CWChris Williamson23:02

       ... was okay. Um, but here's an interesting thing, right? So, we're just talking about TikTok there, and we're now talking... So, what TikTok is doing is nudging our preferences in quite a-

   12. ZTZack Telander23:11

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:12

       ... sort of subtle way, although it's incredibly powerful in a subtle way. Uh, and then you have, I think Grammarly is probably an American-owned company that is trying to really reprogram people's preferences. And language is the way that we experience the world. Um, is it that big of a deal?

   14. ZTZack Telander23:28

       So, so-

   15. CWChris Williamson23:29

       I mean-

   16. ZTZack Telander23:30

       A few things. There's a gay bar in Chicago called, uh, The Manhole. So that (laughs) could be conflicting.

   17. CWChris Williamson23:36

       (laughs)

   18. ZTZack Telander23:37

       Um, I think also people from the Midwest would be screwed because that's all we say is guys. "Hey, guys, what do you do? What are you guys doing?" But down in the South-

   19. CWChris Williamson23:46

       Y'all.

   20. ZTZack Telander23:46

       ... you say, "Hey, y'all." You know, so-

   21. CWChris Williamson23:48

       That's... Isn't that funny that, uh, people that are kind of more progressive are having to repurpose hick language in a desperate attempt-

   22. ZTZack Telander23:55

       It's true.

   23. CWChris Williamson23:55

       ... to be gender-neutral?

   24. ZTZack Telander23:57

       Hey. Yeah, don't, don't call the South racist, man, or, or non-inclusive. They've got a very inclusive, you know, uh, all-inclusive term in y'all. That, that's a great argument right there. (laughs) All right, so, uh, really quickly, Grammarly, just for like, because I, I'd never heard of it until this group chat, uses AI, kind of like ja- ChatGPT, to, uh, just correct grammar and like maybe optimize sentence structure. Does it automate an entire thing? Like can you just write copy with it? No, you can't?

   25. CWChris Williamson24:28

       No. No.

   26. ZTZack Telander24:29

       Okay. So it's not like ChatGPT in that way. It's just, "Hey, don't-"

   27. CWChris Williamson24:32

       Which we're about to get onto in a second.

   28. ZTZack Telander24:34

       "Don't use cisgender, uh..."... terms (laughs) that are, uh, considered non-inclusive.

   29. CWChris Williamson24:39

       Non-gender neutral, yeah.

   30. ZTZack Telander24:40

       Yeah. Like manhole or manatee.
4. 24:58 – 34:18

   The Political Bias of AI Chat

   1. CWChris Williamson24:58

      issue with Grammarly." Uh, I wanted to look into ChatGPT about whether or not that has a particular bias, and there's been some really good research done on this. One of the issues that we're gonna come up against is that ChatGPT and other language models will be used by more and more people as a replacement for things like Google or Bing. You're going to go to ChatGPT to give you a solution as opposed to put a search term into Google to provide you with a list of potential solutions on pages.

   2. ZTZack Telander25:28

      Oh, whoa. Whoa, dude. Okay.

   3. CWChris Williamson25:32

      So-

   4. ZTZack Telander25:32

      Go on.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:32

      ... what you can imagine is if ChatGPT has a particular kind of bias in any direction at all, that's really going to have a profound impact on the way that people live their lives, given that they're going to it not only as their search engine, but as the solution provider. So, "If anything is going to replace the current Google search engine s- uh, s- uh, search engine stack, future iterations of language models such as ChatGPT, uh, for which people are going to be interacting with on a daily basis for decision-making tasks," said researcher David Rosado, he is a, uh, very good guy for this stuff, "Language models that claim political neutrality and accuracy like ChatGPT does, while displaying political biases, should be causes of large concern." So, he put it through a number of political orientation tests that you can do, uh, political compass, tons, and tons, and tons of them, it's all listed on an article. So he has done this December 6th, December 24th, and then he did one just this week as well. According to Rosado, ChatGPT's political bias were preliminary and based on, uh, limited data. "The results are now more robust," he said, "and can say with greater certainty that ChatGPT indeed exhibits a preference for left-leaning answers to preferences with political connotations." Politically in the compass test, blah, blah, blah, it had come out against the death penalty and free market, but in favor of abortions, more taxes on the rich government subsidies, welfare benefits, and for those who refuse to work, also pro-immigration among other things. Now, the problem that you have is... or some other thing that I've seen, uh, one of my friends asked it to give a justification for authoritarianism, and it said, "Uh, as a ChatGPT thing, I cannot give points like this." It's like if you asked it how to make a Molotov cocktail-

   6. ZTZack Telander27:16

      Oh, okay.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:16

      ... it would avoid to do this stuff. However, if you ask it to give you a justification for communism, it'll happily do it.

   8. ZTZack Telander27:24

      Wow. So w- why, why do you think this is happening? Do you think it's, you know, um, restrictions that have been put forth by the engineers, the developers, or is it that these things are inherently the smartest thing because the computation is done by AI? (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson27:42

      So the, the reason that it's put forward by this Rosado guy is that what ChatGPT is, is a language learning model, and it has been trained largely on language that was written by people who have this part- particular political bias leaning-

   10. ZTZack Telander27:56

       Okay.

   11. CWChris Williamson27:56

       ... because for them that would be what is s- socially acceptable. Now that being said, this guy has done a number of different studies and over time it's swung from left to right. It's changed. So December 6th, it was very left-leaning. December 24th, it appeared like it had flattened back out, and then most recently it's really gone quite far out to the left again. Now, this s- this should be a concern. No matter what your political leaning is-

   12. ZTZack Telander28:19

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson28:19

       ... it should be a concern that potentially the new biggest search function in the world is unable to be objective.

   14. ZTZack Telander28:31

       But don't we always say that, uh, you know, political ideology in general in America swings back and forth, right? Depending on, you know, w- uh, usually it's the quad, it's usually the four-year term of presidency and, um, Congress and, and the Senate. Uh, wouldn't you say that the AI is just playing catch up and swinging with?

   15. CWChris Williamson28:52

       Uh, so I don't think that a program which is supposed to supply answers should be swaying at all. If I ask it to give me a definition of the word woman, that shouldn't be mediated by what the political viewpoint, court de jure at the time is.

   16. ZTZack Telander29:09

       But if it's generated, if it's generated by language across the internet at large-

   17. CWChris Williamson29:15

       It is.

   18. ZTZack Telander29:15

       ... that's what's gonna happen.

   19. CWChris Williamson29:16

       It, it is, but it's able to take up, you know, the entirety of time. It shouldn't be swaying backward and forwards that much, especially when it comes to-

   20. ZTZack Telander29:22

       The entirety of time o- of the internet, though, right? Like, I mean, maybe some hist- uh, I don't know. Yeah. You, you... I'm just playing devil's advocate here, you know, uh, because it's, it is very interesting.

   21. CWChris Williamson29:34

       Well, the other problem that you have is they say that there is no political bias. AI systems pro- they claim to be providing neutral and factual information, and yet display clear pol- political bias. That's the concern that this guy has.

   22. ZTZack Telander29:48

       Yeah. You know, this is kind of a aside, but I, I remember being little and hearing about AI for the first time and what it would be able to do. I, I was much younger and I was talking with my father, and I had this kind of like existential crisis. It was like, you know, we, we, we talk about automation of jobs, jobs that we might be losing, and using, uh, ChatGPT for copyright is like very common now. And that's within like the last month. Maybe 'cause copywriting is something where it's like, "Ugh, I just finished this product and I don't really wanna work on copy, but copy is so important. You know, I need to hire a copywriter, but now I can just plug it into ChatGPT," right? Like, it's incredibly beneficial. But like if we refine that down, it's like, well, could I just make an AI a lawyer for me?... like, an AI could just take the input from what's happening in the courtroom and tell, say exactly what should, should happen. Right? It would take every law textbook that's ever existed, every case that's ever existed, and do that. And I remember thinking about this when I was little, not with ChatGPT in mind, and just being like, "What is the point of anything?" And then, like, you know, walking off and, like, playing baseball with my friends later. But, like, having that, that thing happen to me, and, and it's weird, um, I, I don't know how much that has to do with, you know, the political leaning of it, but i- it is kind of freaky, man. It really, really is.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:13

       Well, there's some law bots that are being used to replace a lot of the kind of middle in, uh, fiduciary and also litigation stuff that was previously done by humans. It's-

   24. ZTZack Telander31:25

       Yeah, what's the front end, uh, job that, like, processes a lot of case work, uh, in a law office? What's that job call-

   25. CWChris Williamson31:32

       Whatever that is.

   26. ZTZack Telander31:33

       Yeah. Absolutely could be done by, by ChatGPT. May-

   27. CWChris Williamson31:36

       I think, I think a big chunk of it is already being done by specially trained-

   28. ZTZack Telander31:39

       Oh, God.

   29. CWChris Williamson31:39

       ... law AIs. But, dude, I mean, between the, the Grammarly thing and the, the ChatGPT sort of leaning, is it a massive deal that it's popping up and saying, "Hey, guys..." Some readers may find the term guys non-inclusive. Is it an absolutely huge deal? Probably not. I think the concern that people have is, what does this happen, w- what, what happens if we start to nudge these preferences a little bit more?

   30. ZTZack Telander32:03

       Yeah.
5. 34:18 – 40:41

   Google & Meta’s Adult Daycare Ends

   1. CWChris Williamson34:18

      trend of a day in the life of a Google or Meta employee backfires as they lay off 13,000 unproductive staff. So, a Google worker who famously documented her day in the life, uh, of working at Google has now had to do another vlog, "A day in (laughs) the, in my life getting laid off," in a viral TikTok. Uh, so a Google employee who racked up thousands of views with videos showing off the perks of the tech giant's swanky offices has tearfully documented being caught up in a mass layoff. Nicole Tsai, whose role at Google was partner services program manager, according to her LinkedIn profile, had been vlogging about my day, a day in my life at the company, enjoying free candy, games, catered lunches, and coconut waters, Harry Potter themed meeting rooms and massage chairs. "I'm heading over to this butterfly themed meeting room to take my next meeting, and then I'm going to head over to the confetti room to take my next meeting. It's so sparkly and beautiful in here," she said in one TikTok video earlier this month. "Next, I'm going to go upstairs and grab some lunch. There are also pizza and a variety of different vegetables and meat. The food is always really good." And of course, you can see every, uh, uh, everything you see in the office is free. Uh, unfortunately, on Friday, Google's parent company, Alphabet, announced it would slash nearly 12,000 jobs worldwide in the latest of a series of mass layoffs across the industry. Uh, they found out through email and she does this vlog talking about it. And, uh, i- in a video which has been viewed nearly three million times, Ms. Tsai documented a day (laughs) in my life getting laid off at Google.

   2. ZTZack Telander35:48

      H- so, um, I'm curious if this is a result of automation. Because if anywhere I think w- would require, you know, less workers as technology, uh, improves, it would be somewhere like Google. Was it... Do you think it was pr- it had to have been because of, like, a lot of these jobs could be automated.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:07

      I'm sure that there'll be a lot of people that know exactly what's going on. I think it's most likely due to recession, very, very bad year for the stock market, and declining productivity. Elon came into Twitter and laid off-

   4. ZTZack Telander36:22

      Yep.

   5. CWChris Williamson36:22

      ... an absolute metric ton of people because as far as he can see-

   6. ZTZack Telander36:26

      It just seems like-

   7. CWChris Williamson36:27

      ... they weren't doing anything. Um-

   8. ZTZack Telander36:29

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson36:29

      And the... I'm gonna try and give this girl her due as best I can. If you were going to vlog a day in your life, and you've seen these videos, they've got, they went viral on, about Twitter. This particular one that she did was pretty egregious. You know, she goes in and j- just doesn't seem to do anything. But she will say, "Now I'm gonna take my next meeting, and now I'm gonna go to this room, and now I'm going to work," or whatever it might be. But she doesn't show the work. Like-... by design. We can't... It, it's going to be-

   10. ZTZack Telander36:56

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:57

       ... much less interesting for her to talk about whatever spreadsheet she's working on-

   12. ZTZack Telander37:00

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson37:01

       ... than it is for her to say, "And then I got this lunch, and then I got this coconut water, and then I went to the gym, and then I had a massage chair." Like, those are the bits that are interesting. So there is a little bit of selection bias going on here. But it seems to me that these tech companies have got tons and tons and tons of bloat. They've gotten rid of that given the fact that the stock market is squeezing them and profits are going to be down. So they've just had to do mass layoffs. Now 12,000-

   14. ZTZack Telander37:24

       Yes.

   15. CWChris Williamson37:24

       ... people is so many people.

   16. ZTZack Telander37:27

       So if you remember when these tech companies started blowing up, they became the subversive bus- successful business. "We're not going to have, um, a massive floor of cubicles lined up. We're going to have an open air thing." You... "We don't..." You know, "We, we need creative thinkers." I think, like, Google had, like, a group of people that they called, like, the dreamers or something and they... It was this really cool kind of, like, futuristic ideal, um, that became kind of cringey at a point, and I think we're catching the tail end of that. I think, honest to God, we... they're like, "Oh wait, let's just, uh, you know, batten down the hatches here and, like, become an actual business, cut, you know, trim the fat." It sucks. It definitely sucks, um, that, you know, the, the millennials, maybe even later the Gen Z generation, is dealing with these layoffs, whoever's there. And, and it could be older people or whatever. But I just remember this... There were a ton of movies, like, even when I think about, like, the Elizabeth Holmes documentary at Theranos, a lot of what they talked about were these tech companies just, like, just being very showy in their physical space.

   17. CWChris Williamson38:35

       Mm.

   18. ZTZack Telander38:36

       And that was with the, the amount of employees that they had, these massive campuses with butterfly rooms and candy rooms and, "We're different," and, and things like that, um, when now they just... They just need to be a business, you know? And I think that that's ultimately, like... I think Elon, and again I don't want to, like, take a particular side in this, but I'm pretty sure Elon never ran Tesla like that. And, uh, so then when he went to Twitter and he kind of saw that same view of li- (laughs) of this, like, play land for work, he was like, "All right, let's just stop doing this and let's dial it in a little bit."

   19. CWChris Williamson39:15

       Yes. Well, I think one of the reasons that you can afford to have so much bloat is that the margins that these companies have-

   20. ZTZack Telander39:22

       Yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson39:22

       ... are insane. The reason that you can have this massive campus and everyone gets free lunch and there's a massage chair is because these companies make tons and tons of money hand over fist, because their costs... The, the cost of putting something on the internet, apart from the manpower made to create it and the server space to host it, is essentially zero. And it's scalable un- it's unlimitedly scalable.

   22. ZTZack Telander39:44

       It's, it's the explosion and then the catch-up, right? And we are at the catch-up now.

   23. CWChris Williamson39:49

       Yes.

   24. ZTZack Telander39:50

       Like, um, if the explosion was like, "Oh my God, we got so much money, we'll just do whatever, it doesn't matter," everything is caught up now. There might be saturation in the market, there might be competitors that are coming to take you down. The stock market could suck, uh, and then you're like, "Okay, now everything's caught up, like, let's figure this out again." Uh, it was a fun time, but it was, it was interesting, you know?

   25. CWChris Williamson40:10

       Well, I mean, isn't... Game over now.

   26. ZTZack Telander40:12

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson40:12

       Isn't it Austin that's got... Didn't Facebook try and start, build a new business here, build a new building here, and they've just bailed out partway through? I just don't think that they're going to use it. Or is it Google maybe?

   28. ZTZack Telander40:23

       Um, I, I'm not sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson40:25

       There was someone... There's definitely-

   30. ZTZack Telander40:25

       I'm not sure that they built, like, a big campus. Um, I know there's a big Apple here, a lot of big tech companies, but I didn't know if there was a big, like, plan for some, like, massive amount of acreage for a big Meta campus coming here.
6. 40:41 – 46:21

   Calling a Man Bald is Sexual Harassment in the UK

   1. CWChris Williamson40:41

      very important. Calling a man bald counts as sexual harassment, UK judge rules.

   2. ZTZack Telander40:46

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson40:46

      A UK employment tribunal argued that the use of the word bald as an insult related to a protected characteristic of sex. Calling a man bald can now be classed as sexual harassment, a UK employment tribunal judge has ruled. This is CNBC. Three members of the tribunal who decided on the ruling and alluded to their own experience of hair loss said that baldness was more prevalent in men than women, therefore they argued that the use of the word bald is an insult related to a protected characteristic of sex. The tribunal compared calling a man bald to commenting on the size of a woman's breasts based on a 1995 case. What do you think? Is, is calling a man bald the same-

   4. ZTZack Telander41:24

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson41:24

      ... as saying you're a small titty bitch? (laughs) You a small titty bitch. (laughs) But it's not, it's just you're bald.

   6. ZTZack Telander41:34

      What if they have big titties then? Is that the sa-... Yeah, so small titty or big-

   7. CWChris Williamson41:39

      You're-

   8. ZTZack Telander41:39

      Claiming, talking about another woman's breasts is the same as ta- talking about a man's baldness.

   9. CWChris Williamson41:44

      What if I say that you've got a beautiful head of hair, you've got a big head of hair, that's a lot of hair you've got there?

   10. ZTZack Telander41:48

       Yeah. Uh, wow. Um-

   11. CWChris Williamson41:50

       Stop sexualizing me.

   12. ZTZack Telander41:52

       Look, if, if we were to consider this versus the Grammarly thing, I wonder which one's more ridiculous.

   13. CWChris Williamson41:57

       (laughs) This is pretty-

   14. ZTZack Telander41:59

       Um-

   15. CWChris Williamson41:59

       This is pretty ridiculous.

   16. ZTZack Telander42:01

       This is an... Yeah, this is pretty, pretty insane.

   17. CWChris Williamson42:03

       The story, the story is really good. The ruling-

   18. ZTZack Telander42:05

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson42:05

       ... published Wednesday was made on a case where the insult was alleged to have been used against Tony Finn while he worked as an electrician for the British Bung Manufacturing Company. Finn had worked at the company, who manufactures wooden cask closures for the brewing industry in Yorkshire in the northeast of England, for nearly 24 years. He was fired last year, and the circumstances around his d- dismissal were also part of the case. Finn claimed that he was called a bald (censored) and was also threatened by his shift supervisor-

   20. ZTZack Telander42:32

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson42:33

       ... Jamie King, in a dispute in July 2019. The tribunal determined that using this insult was a violation against the claimant's dignity, it created an intimidating-

   22. ZTZack Telander42:42

       I mean-

   23. CWChris Williamson42:42

       ... environment, it was done for that purpose, and it related to the claimant's sex. So, ladies and gentlemen, do not call a man bald or you will get in serious trouble.

   24. ZTZack Telander42:52

       (laughs) I mean, the, the... (laughs) I didn't know that's why he filed it. I mean, the... That's just... Like, you're making fun of someone on the job. That's harassment.... right? Uh, I don't think saying the word bald as a description should be then, uh, you know, more specifically, like, tuned into, "Oh, this is sexual (laughs) harassment." Like, the bald part. Saying someone's a bald (censored) , like, that's just making fun of someone, right? Like, that's harassment, of course, on the job, um... (laughs) I didn't know that's what the story was.

   25. CWChris Williamson43:28

       That's what, that's, that's what they said. But the problem, the problem is that if you want to do protected sex characteristics, you're going to open up these kinds of conversations, right? Because on average, women don't go bald that much, so it means that men will take their baldness as a protective characteristic. It's the same reason why, actually-

   26. ZTZack Telander43:47

       Oh, so now we're factoring averages and generalizations. Hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson43:51

       I think so. I don't know-

   28. ZTZack Telander43:52

       But I don't think we... I don't think people wanna do that that often, do they?

   29. CWChris Williamson43:56

       I saw a really interesting post on Instagram yesterday about the fact that calling someone, uh, an incel or a virgin or a cuck online is significantly more accepted than slut-shaming. If you were to call a girl on social media a slut or a whore, that would go down very badly. But if you were to accuse a guy of being a virgin, that would just be seen as a, a quippy insult. So, there are asymmetries in what is typically used and what's typically accepted, I think.

   30. ZTZack Telander44:27

       Mm-hmm.
7. 46:21 – 51:36

   Floyd Mayweather’s Return to the Ring

   1. CWChris Williamson46:21

      see that Floyd Mayweather is stepping back into the ring?

   2. ZTZack Telander46:24

      I mean, wh... I, I didn't see that, but it's like... It's kinda weird, that guy. His, uh... It's, it's the old, uh, "Well, if I can make a bunch of money off of this, like, am I really gonna retire?"

   3. CWChris Williamson46:36

      Yes.

   4. ZTZack Telander46:37

      Just not... Hi- his thing is not getting hit. It's-

   5. CWChris Williamson46:40

      Yes. So, this is from, uh-

   6. ZTZack Telander46:41

      ... and then getting a big payday.

   7. CWChris Williamson46:43

      ... mmafighting.com, "Floyd Mayweather books next exhibition bout against ex-Bellator fighter, reality TV star, Aaron Chalmers." So, I used to party with Aaron Chalmers in Newcastle back in the day. Aaron Chalmers became famous for being on Geordie Shore, which is the-

   8. ZTZack Telander46:57

      Oh, so he's a Geordie. Yeah, okay. I figured.

   9. CWChris Williamson46:58

      ... British, British equivalent of Jersey Shore, and he then pivoted from reality TV to MMA. He had a two and two professional record, and then he retired two years ago. So, a non-boxer. I, I think he maybe did do one, one boxing fight perhaps, but anyway, he, uh, he is not exactly an elite opponent. Hasn't been in the ring for two years. Uh, "On Monday, Mayweather announced that he'll be facing ex-Bellator fighter and reality TV star, Aaron Chalmers, on February 25th." So, that's only one month's time.

   10. ZTZack Telander47:33

       What ouches does, does it say?

   11. CWChris Williamson47:36

       Uh, I don't think so. These, um, whatever they're called, exhibition fights, really seem to ju- be kind of fast and loose with all of this.

   12. ZTZack Telander47:48

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson47:48

       "Since retiring with a furfect- perfect 15-0 record, his final win coming over the two-division UFC champion, Conor McGregor, Mayweather has stayed busy with a long string of exhibition bouts." Remember, he only fought Deji, what? Four months ago? Three months ago? "He's faced mixed martial artists, social influencers, and overmatched boxers while continuing to pad his fortune with what is likely a hefty payday every time he competes. He initially announced a fight against ONE Championship Muay Thai fighter, Liam Harrison," who is coached by a friend of mine. "However, that matchup fell apart as quickly as it came together because Harrison's under contract. Chalmers stepped in, a man who hasn't been in the ring, uh, for two years, and is a reality TV star, uh..." And the only thing that I can think is that Mayweather absolutely desperately needs the money.

   14. ZTZack Telander48:32

       Yeah, which is really strange, right? 'Cause I... I remember some article saying he was one of the richest athletes on the planet at some point.

   15. CWChris Williamson48:39

       Best paid.

   16. ZTZack Telander48:41

       Best paid? Okay, so not best managed.

   17. CWChris Williamson48:44

       Well, not-

   18. ZTZack Telander48:45

       Not best money managed.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:46

       Correct, not least expending.

   20. ZTZack Telander48:48

       Yeah. Wow. Okay, uh, first off, who's watching that fight? Like, are we gonna be like, "Oh, man, the, the Floyd Mayweather/Geordie Shore guy (laughs) and fight is, is gonna be on"? (laughs) You know what I mean? Like... (laughs) Like, "Well, we gotta head out to, we gotta go to the, a bar on 6th. We gotta go to," (laughs) he gotta go to 6th Street-

   21. CWChris Williamson49:12

       I can't wait to see Geordie Shore versus Floyd Mayweather. Well, here's another question. Like, why wouldn't it be ... Why not fight Jake Paul? Why not fight KSI? Those would both be ... You fought KSI's worse boxing younger brother.

   22. ZTZack Telander49:26

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson49:26

       And you've fought Logan Paul, that is the brother of-

   24. ZTZack Telander49:32

       Here's a better question: why not just manage your money better?

   25. CWChris Williamson49:35

       Why not stop spending it all? Yeah.

   26. ZTZack Telander49:37

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson49:37

       Have you seen, let's see if his Instagram is still the same. Because it used to be the case, back in the day, that Floyd Mayweather's Instagram was basically endless adverts for a strip club.

   28. ZTZack Telander49:49

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson49:50

       Is it still that? Valuable people don't pay for thing ... Uh, maybe it's not. Maybe it's not quite as bad. Uh, no, it doesn't look as, quite as degenerate as it used to. But do you remember what it, do you remember the ones I mean? It was just-

   30. ZTZack Telander50:05

       Right, but that's his business.
8. 51:36 – 1:00:16

   Dick Durbin’s New Supplement Law

   1. CWChris Williamson51:36

   2. ZTZack Telander51:37

      Oh, I don't know enough about it. We can't ... I, I, I don't know enough.

   3. CWChris Williamson51:41

      Okay.

   4. ZTZack Telander51:41

      Um, but it, it's-

   5. CWChris Williamson51:41

      Well, I p- I took a couple of notes down for people that are interested. So, Senator Richard Durbin is trying to pass a bill-

   6. ZTZack Telander51:47

      We call, we go by, we call him Dick Durbin, 'cause this is, uh-

   7. CWChris Williamson51:50

      Dick Durbin?

   8. ZTZack Telander51:50

      Yeah, Dick Durbin. This is an, the Illinois senator, bro. This is, you know.

   9. CWChris Williamson51:53

      How, how famous is this senator-

   10. ZTZack Telander51:55

       Some of the most co-

   11. CWChris Williamson51:56

       ... that he's got a ... he's got an existing nickname?

   12. ZTZack Telander52:00

       So, the, no, like, uh, Richard is, that's the nickname for Richard, is Dick.

   13. CWChris Williamson52:05

       Yeah, but like-

   14. ZTZack Telander52:06

       Yeah. Oh, well that's, he-

   15. CWChris Williamson52:07

       But you mean we call him Dick Durbin?

   16. ZTZack Telander52:08

       Yeah, 'cause in, when he ran, I mean, it's much ... Like, "Vote for Dick Durbin." You know?

   17. CWChris Williamson52:12

       Oh, okay.

   18. ZTZack Telander52:12

       It's pretty, Dick Durbin, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson52:14

       I'd just vote for Dick.

   20. ZTZack Telander52:15

       But anyways, I'll just say that Illinois and Chicago, some of the most corrupt politicians and politics to have ever existed in America, so ...

   21. CWChris Williamson52:22

       Mm.

   22. ZTZack Telander52:22

       We stand by that. Yeah, very proud of it.

   23. CWChris Williamson52:24

       Yeah, so he's trying to pass this bill, which is Bill S4090. It would add a regulation which wouldn't allow any supplement to be sold without meeting expensive regulation criteria.

   24. ZTZack Telander52:34

       Yes. Mm-hmm. Um, and the question from the video that I had sent you was, um, what does he have to gain from this bill?

   25. CWChris Williamson52:42

       Is he invested in some pharmaceutical companies?

   26. ZTZack Telander52:44

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson52:45

       Can you explain, for the people that don't understand, can you explain what the process is for getting a supplement out into the world at the moment?

   28. ZTZack Telander52:50

       As, as far as I'm concerned, there really is not much that needs to be done, like almost at all. I, I'm pretty sure, um ... I don't know if you have to register with the FDA even. Um, and, because there is an FDA bylaw. I remember looking into this at some point, um, where, like, they don't have the right to, uh, like basically audit your product and make sure that you're selling whatever you're selling. So, yeah, this law seems pretty, pretty good.

   29. CWChris Williamson53:21

       It's, well, that's the thing. I mean, I understand-

   30. ZTZack Telander53:23

       Seems, it seems pretty good, but I'll say this. Who stands to win? And it's, that's why I, I dislike it. I would s- I would, leaning towards let's not do this. Um, we talked extensively about how TikTok is m- making children's brains into gray matter, okay? That's much more scary than some bodybuilder selling some, you know, sketchy, uh, (laughs) supplement products to a, a small amount of people. When, you know, I, I, I personally don't like seeing pharmaceutical, pharmaceutical companies and big companies winning, especially when a small business can do it the right way. We know people who own small supplement business, and they take a lot of pride in the product that they make. They would not be able to sell these products. They would not be able to have a business if this thing went through, and that's what I'm concerned with. So, I'm leaning towards saying fuck Dick Durbin, uh, on this one.
9. 1:00:16 – 1:10:48

   Should You Approach Women in the Gym?

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:16

      girl.

   2. ZTZack Telander1:00:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

      That gym, that Jessica gym girl-

   4. ZTZack Telander1:00:19

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:19

      ... lady who, who did the TikTok thing obviously recounted a, a horrific experience that she went through in the gym, uh, as she did hip thrusts and a guy glanced her way three or four times during a three-minute-long set. She got quite upset about it, and now she's had to release a TwitLonger talking about how TikTok creator has issued an, uh, effusive... What the? What's effusive?

   6. ZTZack Telander1:00:43

      Ooh.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:43

      Effusive. Expressing-

   8. ZTZack Telander1:00:44

      New word alert.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:45

      ... feelings of gratitude, pleasure or approval in an unrestrained or heartfelt manner. I don't think that that was the tone of her public apology. Um-

   10. ZTZack Telander1:00:52

       Yeah, I don't think she said that word.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

       No.

   12. ZTZack Telander1:00:54

       It would be very impressive.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:55

       Jessica Fernandez was hit with a torrent of abuse over a video she posted last week in which she fumed that a fellow weightlifter was staring at her like a piece of meat. And she did say that. She also said, "This is why I don't want to have children. This is why we need to... Uh, like I should go over and pull his pee pee off." Uh, men are... It was just every different-... headline, like quotey headline that you would get in a TikTok video was put into one. Um, we also watched, from an unnamed gym in Austin, Texas, a video that started off with a guy pretending like he was going to teach you how to approach girls in the gym. And it's a dude with his top off and he's in good condition, and he says, "I'm going to teach you how to approach girls in the gym." And then it pans to a group of six or seven girls next to him, and they just say, "Don't," and flick their hair and walk away. And I'm thinking-

   14. ZTZack Telander1:01:51

       Total girlboss moment.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

       Serious girlboss moment. I don't know about you, but if I'm into the gym and I'm single and I'm trying to find a girl that I like, dating in the gym is a really, really... or finding partners in the gym is a really good place to start. You know that you've got tons in common. You know that you are probably going to have a fitness journey that you could go on together. It, it seems to me that reducing the likelihood that men, not only outside of the gym because it'll cross over, but in the gym, will approach a girl that they like, who both may be single... And maybe the girl was looking at him and thinking, "Wow," like, "He's quite nice." Are there situations during which girls feel uncomfortable in the gym? Yes. Does this Jessica doing her hip thrusts at-

   16. ZTZack Telander1:02:38

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:02:39

       ... 60 pounds class as one of those? No, she doesn't. And-

   18. ZTZack Telander1:02:43

       Yeah. So I have the, the post right here. "This guy kept making me feel extremely comfortable- uncomfortable at my gym. This is why I'll end up crying on stream, because I feel so grossed out at times with the amount of sexualization I experienced. Hopefully this spreads awareness for girls who experience this type of treatment at the gym." And then on the next slide, so this is by a meme account called The Gains, um, did great research on this. (laughs) Um, but in the next slide, it's the, it shows her, um, uh, her page. She's a content creator and, oh, there's a Linktree. And in that Linktree, there is an OnlyFans. So look, I don't wanna say, I don't wanna say this, um, because that would be way too far of a leap, that if you are on... if you have an OnlyFans, you deserve to get sexualized everywhere. But it's, it, it does seem a little bit odd that you're complaining about the sexualization of yourself when that's exactly what you're commodifying, right? Um, and, and, uh, the, the actual video herself, the guy was just like, he would like look over. That was it. It was like literally-

   19. CWChris Williamson1:03:51

       For half a second.

   20. ZTZack Telander1:03:52

       ... for half a second.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:03:52

       He went over-

   22. ZTZack Telander1:03:52

       For half a second.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:03:53

       ... and I think he asked, he asked if he could help her to put the weights on. But I mean, this is, this particular story has been-

   24. ZTZack Telander1:03:58

       Besi- yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:03:58

       ... heavily, heavily, heavily done to death, but quite well. And I think that situations like this are important to remind people about boundaries, and, you know, her groveling apology that she's come out and spoken about how she didn't realize that this is damaging, and she reflected after the thousands of comments that she received, et cetera, et cetera. I think that very few people would look at that video and say the guy did anything wrong. Almost everybody would look at it and say the girl was out of order. And the response is important because it teaches both guys and girls what is appropriate behavior.

   26. ZTZack Telander1:04:36

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:04:36

       If we want guys to walk around the gym being... I've thought this before, especially some of the gyms that we've trained at in Austin, there's, there's girls everywhere, right? And I'm like, "I can't... There's nowhere really for me to look, apart from looking at you, that doesn't have a girl within my field of view."

   28. ZTZack Telander1:04:52

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:04:52

       So you can imagine if you're a young, impressionable guy, that you could actually get yourself into the stage where the toxic male gaze is something you're so terrified of, that you, you actually become super self-conscious, maybe you're really unhappy with... You, you feel like you, you've inherited some flaw, some sort of gender, sex-based flaw that you can't get rid of. You're this unsalvageable, insufficient, awful human. That's not very good. And then also, for girls in the gym, this reminds... Because girls will, uh, that all of our preferences get influenced by the people that are around us, if other girls start to see that... Let's say that the response to that video was, "Yeah, fuck that guy. That's completely out of order. That guy totally shouldn't be doing that," that will begin to set the new boundary for what girls deem, in the gym, to be acceptable and unacceptable behavior. And if you make acceptable behavior massively unacceptable, that basically conditions girls to feel much more vulnerable all the time. They're going to become more upset at things that maybe aren't worth them becoming upset at. This is how concept creep happens, right? If everything is racist, then nothing is racist.

   30. ZTZack Telander1:06:04

       Right. Yes.
10. 1:10:48 – 1:13:35

    What’s Next for Zack?

    1. ZTZack Telander1:10:48

       just some new, uh, style of content that I've been doing with our friend, our mutual friend, Dylan. Um, it's kind of w- what we've decided to do was... Sometimes just lifting content online, and most of the time lifting content online can get kind of boring. Um, other times podcasting content online can get kind of boring. So, what we've done is kind of mis- mixed the two. If you're ever bored with the way that the conversation is going, just hold out and you can watch us do some snatching and cleaner jerking and, like, fun, uh, you know, weightlifting style movements and, and things like that. Um, and if you get bored of that, we might be talking about valuable things, like, it doesn't matter. Um, you were even on the episode today and, and I'm, I'm really excited about the potential for that. These shorter clips that we've been posting on Instagram have been doing really well and I'm hoping that it can kind of draw people to the longer style. People have been asking for it.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:11:40

       Mm-hmm.

    3. ZTZack Telander1:11:40

       They're like, "We would love to see a podcast like this. This is a great idea." Um-

    4. CWChris Williamson1:11:44

       You did Matt Fraser as well. There's a Matt Fraser episode-

    5. ZTZack Telander1:11:46

       Yeah. Yeah, so-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:11:47

       ... people can go and check out.

    7. ZTZack Telander1:11:48

       That was... Honest to God, that episode was, like, why I started a podcast. I felt that, uh, when I met Matt Fraser, him and I were like kindred spirits. We both, uh, went to University of Vermont at the same time. We both think the same way around training and we both started in weightlifting. Um, but then after that conversation, I felt this emotional connection to the guy that I didn't think I would, I would have had before. And I, like, a- upon reflecting, I'm like, "Damn, this is really what podcasting is all about." Like, don't you feel the same way? Like, sometimes you, you get done with an episode and you're like, "Man, that was a good episode, really great." But other times you get done with someone and you're like, "Holy fuck, I just made like a f- a bond." You know? And, uh, I'm so blessed to be able to share that experience now. It was something that I was nervous. You and I had talked a lot about, "Should I do a podcast? Should I not?" And I did it and, um, I'm loving it. And, you know, something with this training style of podcast where we're lifting, I wanna bring people on.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:12:49

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ZTZack Telander1:12:49

       Like, I wanna bring people that, you know, go to the gym casually and, and lift with them and, like, shoot the shit. I think it could be a really great idea. So, that's really all I have going on. Um, anyone who wants to check me out, go to Zach Telander, Z-A-C-H T-E-L-A-N-D-E-R, on, uh, YouTube and you can also check me out on Instagram, uh, coach_zt. And then if you want to start training, you can go to my Patreon, patreon.com/zachtelander. That's it.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:13:13

        Dude, I appreciate you. Thank you.

    11. ZTZack Telander1:13:15

        Thank you.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:13:16

        What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:13:35