The Art of Unstoppable Self-Belief - Joe Santagato

1. 0:00 – 4:32

   How Joe Sold Out Madison Square Garden

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Joe Santagato, welcome to the show.

   2. JSJoe Santagato0:01

      Wow, that was intense. Such a-- You said my name, like, so British. I love it.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      Like-

   4. JSJoe Santagato0:05

      Uh, thank you for having me, is what I meant

   5. CWChris Williamson0:06

      ... I have to pronounce it correctly, okay?

   6. JSJoe Santagato0:08

      Yeah. It's a tough one. People just read and they say Santiago, and I'm like, "All right." Anybody comes up to me and they're like, "Are you Joe Santiago?" I'm like, "Yeah." [chuckles]

   7. CWChris Williamson0:15

      [chuckles] Sure.

   8. JSJoe Santagato0:15

      I'm like, "Whatever."

   9. CWChris Williamson0:16

      Imagine if there's a really famous Joe Santiago somewhere that's like, "This guy keeps on taking all of my cred."

   10. JSJoe Santagato0:22

       I assume that that has to be the case, but it's just me, plain old white.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:26

       That's true.

   12. JSJoe Santagato0:27

       Italian Irish. [chuckles] That's true.

   13. CWChris Williamson0:28

       [laughs] Plain, plain and white as you can get.

   14. JSJoe Santagato0:31

       That's it.

   15. CWChris Williamson0:31

       Actually, plainer and whiter is British, but-

   16. JSJoe Santagato0:33

       That is fair.

   17. CWChris Williamson0:34

       Yeah. You have one of the biggest podcasts in the world, and you recently sold out Madison Square Garden.

   18. JSJoe Santagato0:40

       Yeah. [chuckles]

   19. CWChris Williamson0:42

       If you were to draw a Venn diagram of your audience-

   20. JSJoe Santagato0:46

       Yeah

   21. CWChris Williamson0:46

       ... and my audience-

   22. JSJoe Santagato0:48

       Right

   23. CWChris Williamson0:49

       ... how mu- how much, uh, how much crossover do we think there is?

   24. JSJoe Santagato0:54

       [sighs] I think it would look like the front of a Jeep, dude. Just like-

   25. CWChris Williamson0:59

       [laughs]

   26. JSJoe Santagato1:00

       [laughs] Just, just kind of like-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:02

       Two separate circles

   28. JSJoe Santagato1:03

       ... you know what I mean? I think so. I mean, I think that people are, are... [laughs] You like that one. Got him with the Jeep. Uh, yeah, I don't, I don't know that there's that much crossover. I don't know, but I'm sure that-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:14

       You mean, that's a big place.

   30. JSJoe Santagato1:15

       [chuckles] Yeah. May- I-- you know what I think? I, I don't really feel like I actually do have one of the big po- biggest podcasts in the world. I think that I have a face that, because I've been on the internet for so long, that people are like, "I've fucking, I've seen this guy before."
2. 4:32 – 6:12

   The Cult Following of The Basement Yard

   1. JSJoe Santagato4:32

      yeah, I don't even know what the fuck I was saying, to be honest. What were we talking about?

   2. CWChris Williamson4:34

      Rabid fans.

   3. JSJoe Santagato4:35

      The rabid fans, yeah. So one thing that I usually, like, kinda point to when it comes to that conversation is we have, like, a top five Patreon in the world, and they-

   4. CWChris Williamson4:45

      Mm.

   5. JSJoe Santagato4:45

      They-- And our viewership doesn't really match that metric.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:51

      Mm.

   7. JSJoe Santagato4:51

      So should we be top five? Not should, but, like, the fact that we have a top five just goes to show that-

   8. CWChris Williamson4:56

      Based on the numbers

   9. JSJoe Santagato4:57

      ... we were able to convert that many people into paying, uh, whatever it is every single month to get an extra episode of this podcast, which is, like, outrageous, and we get so much support from people in that way. And then all of, I think every single show that we've done, outside of, like, a casino show he- here and there, have all sold out. And we also do really well on merch when we, when we go to shows, and it, it's just because there's a rabid support of people. And one thing that is very interesting that I did not expect whatsoever is people in moments that are big for us, obviously, like when we did Radio City and when we did, uh, MSG, the comments that they leave don't really feel like fanatic. It feels like a friend or someone that knows you, and they're like, "I just wanna let you know, like, I'm just so proud of you."

   10. CWChris Williamson5:47

       Mm.

   11. JSJoe Santagato5:47

       And, like, that just, like, hits so different. It's like, man, what the... I didn't expect that, you know? Like, it, it, it really feels like there is a, you know, sort of a relationship there, like this parasocial thing, but that, it truly, like, feels that way when it comes to that.

   12. CWChris Williamson6:04

       Yeah.

   13. JSJoe Santagato6:04

       When other people are like, "I know your uncle's name," I'm like, "All right." [laughs] "Chill out."

   14. CWChris Williamson6:08

       Sure.

   15. JSJoe Santagato6:08

       Yeah, like, don't know that, but-

   16. CWChris Williamson6:09

       Okay, fucking PI.

   17. JSJoe Santagato6:10

       Yeah. [chuckles]

3. 6:12 – 8:20

   Who’s Having the Best Sex in the US?

   1. CWChris Williamson6:12

      Uh, Wyoming women are having the best sex in America.The women of the Cowboy State are riding more than just horses. Wyoming women are the most satisfied with their sex lives according to a newly published report from Babeland, a sex toy boutique with locations in New York City and Seattle. Babeland determined which state's women were the most sexually satisfied through an, examining a host of different factors, including how often women have sex each week, how they rate their sexual experiences, as well as the number of sex shops per state, and the reviews for those adult boutiques. Wyoming women were at the top of the stateside pleasure heap, followed by New Hampshire, Maine, Oregon, and Texas. What do you think about that?

   2. JSJoe Santagato6:50

      One more time with the, with the states.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:52

      Uh, so Wyoming-

   4. JSJoe Santagato6:53

      Yeah

   5. CWChris Williamson6:53

      ... top, New Hampshire-

   6. JSJoe Santagato6:55

      Yep

   7. CWChris Williamson6:55

      ... Maine-

   8. JSJoe Santagato6:56

      Yeah

   9. CWChris Williamson6:56

      ... Oregon, [chuckles] and Texas.

   10. JSJoe Santagato6:58

       Not much to do. Uh, in the rur- in the areas, like in the areas like out in the woods or whatever, it's like you're probably bored looking at each other. Like, how often... Like, they're probably so desensitized by the mountains and the trees that they're like, "I don't know, should we just fuck each other then?" I don't know.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:11

       [laughs]

   12. JSJoe Santagato7:11

       Like, what else are you gonna do? Like, I go out there and I enjoy nature, and I'm like, "Oh my God, a deer."

   13. CWChris Williamson7:16

       Yeah.

   14. JSJoe Santagato7:16

       'Cause I live in New York, and we see pigeons and run over rats, and that's pretty much it.

   15. CWChris Williamson7:20

       Hmm.

   16. JSJoe Santagato7:20

       But if I, but if I lived out there, then it'd be like, "I guess we'll just keep fucking each other then."

   17. CWChris Williamson7:25

       You think, you think that their, their high-quality sex is due to boredom?

   18. JSJoe Santagato7:29

       Is that crazy?

   19. CWChris Williamson7:31

       I, actually probably no.

   20. JSJoe Santagato7:33

       It makes sense. I mean, if the states were very different, right? Like the-

   21. CWChris Williamson7:39

       Texas?

   22. JSJoe Santagato7:39

       Texas is a big state.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:41

       It's true, but there's a lot of people in Houston and Dallas.

   24. JSJoe Santagato7:44

       That is true.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:46

       I don't-

   26. JSJoe Santagato7:46

       But there's, but there's a lot of-

   27. CWChris Williamson7:47

       What's in... I have no idea where New Hampshire even is. What is that?

   28. JSJoe Santagato7:51

       What is New Hampshire?

   29. CWChris Williamson7:52

       Yes.

   30. JSJoe Santagato7:52

       It is a state.
4. 8:20 – 14:00

   Does Bear Spray Actually Work?

   1. JSJoe Santagato8:20

      to Vermont is my point.

   2. CWChris Williamson8:20

      I've been to Portland, Maine, and-

   3. JSJoe Santagato8:22

      I've been to Portland too

   4. CWChris Williamson8:23

      ... there was... It was very nice, but there wasn't a lot going on.

   5. JSJoe Santagato8:26

      No, it's just, you know, lobsters and weed.

   6. CWChris Williamson8:28

      They had a stuffed moose at the arrivals in the airport, like a hu- a life-sized moose.

   7. JSJoe Santagato8:34

      I'm into that. I like stuffed animals, but only if they're, like, to size.

   8. CWChris Williamson8:39

      You want a taxidermy thing, but you don't want it to be shrunk down?

   9. JSJoe Santagato8:41

      Ye- no, yeah, I think that's, that's cowardly.

   10. CWChris Williamson8:44

       Okay, so you don't want a replica moose?

   11. JSJoe Santagato8:46

       No, I would like a full moose-

   12. CWChris Williamson8:48

       Okay

   13. JSJoe Santagato8:48

       ... to be, like, on display because you always, like, hear about moose, but, like, have you seen one in, in, like, person? I've seen videos.

   14. CWChris Williamson8:57

       I've only seen videos.

   15. JSJoe Santagato8:58

       I've only seen videos. Actually, I did see one, but it was, like, in the trees, and I'm like, I didn't get a good look at it. I can't even remember it right now.

   16. CWChris Williamson9:03

       We went to Bozeman, Montana, and did this, the longest fucking hike ever, and as we came back down, we were gonna camp that night. I... The last time I camped, I must have been 16 or something. So I'm like, "I'm excited. Like, this is cool. I'm going camping." And, uh, there's warnings everywhere for bears.

   17. JSJoe Santagato9:20

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson9:20

       So you're really precautioned about the bears, and one of the guys is, "I've got this bear spray, but it sort of doesn't work." I'm like, "Don't say that."

   19. JSJoe Santagato9:28

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson9:28

       "Don't tell me that the..." So anyway, he's like, "Well, you, you don't really need to worry about the adult bears. What you need to worry about is the mums."

   21. JSJoe Santagato9:37

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson9:37

       Like, the adult males aren't the ones that are dangerous. It's the mums.

   23. JSJoe Santagato9:40

       Hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson9:40

       And as we're pulling in in the tru- my friend that I was with was very nervy about the bears, but the guy's like, "Look, the likelihood of us seeing a bear is really low. The likelihood of it being in between you and whatever is super low. We're all gonna be around a fire in any case, the tents, and all the rest of the stuff." As we're pulling in, look over the far side, and there is a bear that's about this big, like baby bear.

   25. JSJoe Santagato10:01

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson10:02

       And we're like-

   27. JSJoe Santagato10:03

       That's bad

   28. CWChris Williamson10:03

       ... "You're not far from your mum."

   29. JSJoe Santagato10:04

       Yeah, no.

   30. CWChris Williamson10:05

       Immediately he was like, "I'm out. I'm not going."
5. 14:00 – 20:23

   Why Self-Belief Changes Everything

   1. CWChris Williamson14:00

      York. You've got this line, "Be realistic about where you stand, but not where you can go."

   2. JSJoe Santagato14:04

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:05

      What's that mean?

   4. JSJoe Santagato14:06

      I think that that is the thing that, like, helps me the most. Like, I really feel like my... If you could pick a superpower that you have, like something that, you know, is the reason for the way you are-

   5. CWChris Williamson14:20

      British accent

   6. JSJoe Santagato14:20

      ... right. Well, yeah, honestly. Honestly, yes. Um, and you're in good shape. Those two things, I would chalk everything up to that.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:27

      It will carry you very far.

   8. JSJoe Santagato14:28

      Yeah, yeah. Oh my God. That's why I'm... I mean, I went for a run this morning. That's why. Um, [laughs] but I think that being realistic with yourself, especially, like, where you stand at the moment, is very important because a lot of people do this thing where they conflate manifesting and, I don't know, this, like, positive affirmation thing for, like, just tell yourself that you're better than you are. Which I, I think that has a place in certain areas, but I do think it's important to realize where you are because it helps you to, it humbles you, and you say, "This is where I am right now, and this is what I'm capable of." And if you know yourself, then no one can really say anything to you. You can't be hurt by a comment or, or anything like that. You are on a mission. I know who I am. And then the, the un- or what, I don't even know the fuck the rest of it was, but it's like, like not being realistic about where you can go. I'm extremely unrealistic about that part. So that part, I, I really f- believe that I can accomplish anything. I don't think it's easy, but, like, I'll give you an example that's, like, insane and some people are gonna be like, "Fuck this kid." But I saw a video of Ben Affleck and Matt Damon winning the, uh, Academy Award for Best Screenplay, and I, I watched it back, like, 20 times. Not kidding. I'm also like that. I'll watch it, like, crazy if I'm, like, feeling something from it. But I'm watching that, and a part of me is going, like, "I can do that." And I, I don't, like, in a sane mind, I don't... It, it's obviously that's crazy to say, but I, I do believe that. Like, I believe that I can't do it right now. I don't think I'm capable or, like, my first shot at it I can do it, but I feel like I can. Like, I, if I wanted to and really apply myself, I can do that. Obviously, that counts for nothing. You have to put in all that work. But I think the fact, I think letting yourself know that it is possible and you are capable of actually achieving that goes a long way.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:26

      Mm.

   10. JSJoe Santagato16:27

       You know? Like, having certain people, uh, that blow up as a musical artist that came from, like, a small town or whatever, like, that is very inspiring to those people that live in a small town or anyone that lives in a small town. Like, that's a relatable thing. It's like, well, usually only people from LA are movie stars, but you came from this small town, so I live in a small town over here, so that lets me know that, like, oh, it is possible to make it in some sort of way. Um, and that's just an example of that, where if you allow yourself to be like, "I can do that," like if I wanted to, and I am... I become, like, obsessed with things, like very passionate about things, to the point, like I'm nuts, dude. Like, I'm fucking crazy. Like, I, when I really, like when I was thinking about, uh, MSG and, and Radio City, those were two really big moments in my life. And for Radio City, I, I knew what song I, I wanted to, like I wanted us to come out to, like a year before it even happened. Before it actually was booked, I, like, knew what song I wanted it to be, and I wanted to know, like, I knew we, how we were gonna promote it and all these other things because I, like, hear a song and then it kinda motivates me a little bit and I have to listen to it a bunch of times, to the point where, like, now I'm visualizing this thing. Like, I'm doing the manifesting. And I, I literally was listen- 'cause the song is Bob O'Reilly. Teenage Wasteland. Fire. So I, I, I had that song in mind for this, and then I would, like, if I went for a run and I put it on, like sometimes I would just cry 'cause I just, like, want it so bad.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:05

       Yeah.

   12. JSJoe Santagato18:05

       But I don't know. Sometimes I, I want that and I don't even know what I want. Like, I'm just very intense about... This is gonna sound, I mean, I don't know. We got this, so, like. But, like, energy is so, like, real to me, and if I can hear a song or I see a video or I see, um, someone talking about something and it, and it resonates with me even a little bit, I have to watch it, uh, religiously, and I just, I just want to understand so muchOf like why I feel that way, and it, it inspires me. And I really think that, like, not... It goes beyond people saying like, "Anything is possible," which is true, but that's like very general. Like, I feel very capable. Like, I actually feel capable, um, to, to do things. And just because I think it, obviously that means nothing. Um, but I, I do, I ha- there, there's like a feeling in me. Like truly, like it's like in my body that I really feel like if I go after some sort of project, I w- I will get it done in some way. Or I'll fail at it, which is totally fine because it's not, that doesn't stop me. Like, obviously you're gonna fail. Failed many times, many times. But it doesn't stop me from wanting to get to that position. I will always go. I never get discouraged.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:27

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6. 20:23 – 25:49

   The Secret to Building Confidence

   1. CWChris Williamson20:23

      Have you always felt like that, or have you trained yourself into feeling like this? 'Cause it sounds like you've got a lot of self-belief, at least for the future.

   2. JSJoe Santagato20:28

      Yeah, I do. Um, I... Yes, I would say that I always kind of felt that way. Partially, uh, in certain ways where how I grew up, um, I always felt like I'll be fine even if I wasn't going to be. I was perfectly okay with not really being fine, like financially, like not being fine. And I literally just wanted to do this sort of thing. That's all I wanted to do, was to have this job and entertain people. It wasn't about how much money. It was literally like, I wanna do it and I kind of wanna do it on my own terms. And I want to stand out and I want to be as au- authentic as possible, so that's kind of what my goal was. Like, that's what drives me, is to... I, I don't want to veer too far off from the person I was when I first started doing all this.

   3. CWChris Williamson21:19

      Mm.

   4. JSJoe Santagato21:19

      If that makes sense.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:19

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JSJoe Santagato21:20

      Because, uh, the, the, the mindset that like I was just talking about, like that hasn't changed at all, the way that I sort of view it. Like, I, I think I can do it, so I have to do it my way sort of thing. And, and part of that is I'm v- because I'm very realistic with myself, I am... I love criticism. Like, that resonates especially. Like, if people are just like hating and it doesn't really hit you at all, that, whatever, it doesn't matter. But when someone criticizes you or they have advice for you and they say something and you're like, "Ooh," like I love that. I love those moments. Part of the reason why me and Greg work together is because [chuckles] years ago I like wrote a script and I was like showing like my friends and family and shit. They're like, "Oh my God, this is so funny." Sent it to him. He sent me back like eight pages on why it sucks. Like, like so many things like why it sucks, and I was reading all of them and I'm like, "Oh my God, these make so much sense." And like that's exciting for me because it's like, now I'm making some sort of progress. Like, there's no way I'm getting this right on the first try. Like, I am super down to be wrong because I'm not, I'm not trying to be right about I can do something. Like, I'm trying to do something extraordinary, which is going to require some sort of collaboration, especially at this point, especially if you want to do something really extraordinary and like win some sort of award or whatever. Like, I, my approach would be to something like that, um, the Academy Award is what I'm talking about, which is not actually like a goal. I don't want people to feel like this is what I'm doing over here. But, uh, it's, it's more of like, I, if I get the opportunity, I'm putting everything into this thing and I will dot every I and cross every T. And I am not trying to get it greenlit. Like, I'm trying to get it to be the greatest show anyone's ever seen for its category.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:08

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JSJoe Santagato23:09

      [chuckles] You know? Like, that is kind of my approach to those things, and I feel very capable, especially with like the, the people that I have around me. Like, I get a lot of help and I believe in them tremendously, and I think that we're super lean, but I just feel very capable in that way. We didn't really expand the team like crazy any, for any of these big moments. I kept it like the people... We were all doing it for the first time and we were figuring it out and, you know, after, after realizing that, I'm referring to touring now, but, uh, it was just six of us, and really like four of us are kind of like, uh, making decisions and dealing with the companies and whatever. But we wanted to do it ourselves. A company had offered help to, you know, help with the tour, but we wanted to do it. We thought, we felt that we were capable. We also wanted to see how involved it was, and if we were just gonna give money away to somebody or if we could handle it ourselves. And we did the sh- the show for two years, had a very good, like, success with it, and now we know what's involved. But that was always going to be the approach 'cause it's like, we can do it. Like, let's just do it ourselves. And a lot of people, we heard from a lot of venues that a lot of people show up with like a big team and they have, you know, this and that. Granted, we don't really have like a super involved show, to be fair. Um, but they were, people were always kind of like, "Oh, it's just you guys?" And we're like, "Yeah."

   9. CWChris Williamson24:34

      You, you turned up at MSG with five people.

   10. JSJoe Santagato24:36

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:37

       And they were like

   12. JSJoe Santagato24:39

       There was a stage manager that, um, like they have people there, like they, but like usually, I mean, MSG is a different thing. They hire like some guy who's like done it and he's like for real. Um, but in other places it's just someone who works at the theater and, and sometimes you get to a theater that's like super old and, uh, you know, like in, in Tampa, I don't even remember the name of the venue, but we went there and the computer that they tried to upload our, like show to basically, 'cause we have some assets on the screen and whatnot, and some other components. Uh, um, the computer was like from fucking 1857, and the guy's like, "Hold on, I got a MacBook." He brings out something from 1995. I'm like, "We're getting warmer, but this won't turn on." And we had to get our photographer to go back to the hotel room, get his laptop, set up the entire show, and then we basically ran the entire thing. So sometimes you run into that [laughs] if you don't have an entire team like that, that shows up and like plugs in and does the whole thing. Um, but we like to keep it super lean. I, I enjoy that and I enjoy saying that all this stuff that you see and everything that we've kind of accomplished have come from these people.

7. 25:49 – 26:52

   Why Do Women Love The Basement Yard?

   1. JSJoe Santagato25:49

      So-

   2. CWChris Williamson25:49

      What's the, uh, what's the gender split of your show, of your audience?

   3. JSJoe Santagato25:53

      Uh, I believe it's around 70/30 female, so it skews female. Uh, it may be like a little lower than that, but-

   4. CWChris Williamson26:00

      And then at the live shows?

   5. JSJoe Santagato26:02

      The live shows it's overwhelmingly, overwhelmingly female. Yeah. There's-

   6. CWChris Williamson26:06

      90%, 95%?

   7. JSJoe Santagato26:07

      I mean, I don't know about 95, but we're getting there. Like it's, I think it's probably like lit- realistically like 85%. Like it's a lot.

   8. CWChris Williamson26:14

      To the point where people's Apple Watches go off.

   9. JSJoe Santagato26:17

      Yes. Told you about that. But it, it was, it's very loud. Um, my first show ever I was like super nervous and I didn't really know what to expect. I didn't know if we were gonna do a good, good job, and I walked out on stage and the, the only thing I could think about was how loud it was. I was like, "Oh my God. Like I've never heard something like this before." I've never, I've never like been on a stage in front of that many people. Our first show I think was 1,700 people in New Jersey, and I was like, "Holy shit."

   10. CWChris Williamson26:45

       New Jersey women will make a lot of noise as well.

   11. JSJoe Santagato26:47

       Yeah, they do make a lot of noise. Yeah. Oh my God. A lot of that. Yeah.

8. 26:52 – 31:33

   Does Imposter Syndrome Slow Joe Down?

   1. CWChris Williamson26:52

      So one of the most common areas, I think it's the most commonly cited psychological area for growth that women want to work on, and certainly at my shows 'cause I do a lot of Q&A-

   2. JSJoe Santagato27:03

      Mm-hmm

   3. CWChris Williamson27:03

      ... uh, it's the most common thing that women talk about to me as well, is imposter syndrome.

   4. JSJoe Santagato27:08

      Mm.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:08

      And what you have is kind of like reverse imposter syndrome.

   6. JSJoe Santagato27:13

      I also have imposter syndrome though.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:15

      But you have it at a level where, why is everybody here for me?

   8. JSJoe Santagato27:19

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson27:19

      But at no point does it put a ceiling on where you think that you can go. So I think for a lot of people, their, um, sense of self now is, "I shouldn't be here."

   10. JSJoe Santagato27:31

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson27:32

       And that bleeds over into, "And therefore I definitely can't go that much further."

   12. JSJoe Santagato27:38

       Mm.

   13. CWChris Williamson27:39

       Does that make sense?

   14. JSJoe Santagato27:39

       Sure.

   15. CWChris Williamson27:40

       And I think that at least by the sounds of things, you sometimes get surprised with like, what the fuck? It's like MSG and Radio City and all of these people and like apparently it's 130 decibels.

   16. JSJoe Santagato27:50

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson27:51

       And, uh, but that doesn't slow you down going forward.

   18. JSJoe Santagato27:56

       No, because one, now I also feel like an enormous responsibility because for a long time it was just me who was making all the decisions and I was, I didn't have any employees, so I didn't have anyone, or I did have an employee, but we were younger, so there wasn't a lot of stakes. But now I have employees that have children, that have mortgages, that have, you know, things to pay for and like there's a little bit more of a pressure from that. But I, I also, in those moments I have imposter syndrome where I kind of feel like this is obviously very ridiculous that this many people are here and I don't, I don't, I don't really know how it happened this, 'cause it feels very quick. Like it just kind of flies by and then you're, you're there, I'm standing on stage at MSG in front of a sold-out crowd and you're kind of like, "What the hell did I do to get here? I don't even remember."

   19. CWChris Williamson28:46

       Mm.

   20. JSJoe Santagato28:46

       And that's like, that's a, that's a, you know, a weird experience but... I don't even know where I was going with that to be honest. But I, it, it's, I, I do have imposter syndrome, but in those moments a part of me is also like, "I can't get scared. Like I can't stop this because too many people are-"

   21. CWChris Williamson29:07

       Mm.

   22. JSJoe Santagato29:07

       "... kind of counting on it." And I, and I think that I, I sort of owe it to myself in a way that I should keep pushing and seeing what I'm capable of. Because really the only thing that I think holds a lot of people back is this fear of things like that, where you're like, "Well this is..." Either that's not for me completely or this is good enough or... You know, this is good enough is actually not what I wanna say because I think that everything that I've been doing is like good enough, but I, I just wanna know that like, I, I wanna know what my full potential is. Like I wanna know what I'm capable of. There's still fear that lives in me that feels like you turn down certain opportunities or you don't do certain things because of fear.

   23. CWChris Williamson29:48

       Mm.

   24. JSJoe Santagato29:49

       And you, you especially-

   25. CWChris Williamson29:51

       How much do you feel that? How much do you feel fear?

   26. JSJoe Santagato29:54

       All the time. I think all the time. I mean, there's certain parts of it that, there's certain parts of it that I'm afraid of, and it gets easier when you kind of do stuff. I was afraid to do live shows. I was, I was like nervous about doing it because you're so comfortable like just on the internet and it's like you c- y- you can edit it. It's, there's no like really high stakes, but can you perform for two hours in front of people? Like that's a very big jump and a, and a different thing. Especially when you're doing a podcast show that people have no expectations coming into the show like, "What the fuck is it gonna be?" Like, are you gonna get on there and sit on stage and talk to your boy and that's gonna be the whole show?

   27. CWChris Williamson30:37

       Mm.

   28. JSJoe Santagato30:37

       Like it can't be that.Um, I, it can be. Some people do it, but I, I was not interested in that whatsoever.

   29. CWChris Williamson30:42

       Lazy people do it.

   30. JSJoe Santagato30:43

       [laughs] Yeah. I was not interested in that whatsoever. I held off until we had a good idea, and also at a point where we felt like we are hitting a stride and the show has, like, grown to the point, and this feels like, okay, this is a logical next step, but we're gonna make it worth it for people because I... Going back to what I was saying before, none of this is for the money. I really just am not motivated by money at all. Um, so I would feel horrible if I went out there and, and didn't try, and if they loved it, it would make it worse, 'cause then it would feel like, oh, I manipulated them and give, into giving my money, and they're happy. Why are they happy?
9. 31:33 – 36:50

   Why Obsession Is a Superpower

   1. JSJoe Santagato31:33

      that to their audience.

   2. CWChris Williamson31:33

      There's a, a line, the guy who you didn't know, Alex, the-

   3. JSJoe Santagato31:37

      No, I know Alex.

   4. CWChris Williamson31:37

      Oh, you know Alex. Okay.

   5. JSJoe Santagato31:38

      I just, I just was shocked by the fact [laughs] that you guys were up there.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:40

      Uh, yeah, it's very regal. Uh-

   7. JSJoe Santagato31:42

      Wow. [laughs]

   8. CWChris Williamson31:43

      Um, he's, he's got, he's got a line where he says, um, "Control freak is a word that people with low standards use to describe people with high standards."

   9. JSJoe Santagato31:52

      Control freak-

   10. CWChris Williamson31:54

       Is a term that people with low standards use to describe people with high standards.

   11. JSJoe Santagato31:58

       Gotcha.

   12. CWChris Williamson31:58

       And what you've said is dotting every I, crossing every T, spending a lot of time obsessing over... It sounds like you're quite obsessive-

   13. JSJoe Santagato32:05

       Yeah

   14. CWChris Williamson32:05

       ... to me. Like, uh, I mean, you are by definition. I watch a video, and there's a section of a video that I can't stop thinking about because it makes, gives me goosebumps or it makes me cry.

   15. JSJoe Santagato32:14

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson32:15

       That you're obsessing over this emotion, this energy. You're obsessing over this vibe. You're obsessing over this song for your s- show that hasn't even yet been booked.

   17. JSJoe Santagato32:23

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson32:24

       And I've got this idea that I think obsession's really misunderstood by people, that we're all obsessed with discipline and motivation, and motivation's cool 'cause it's kind of like relatively free discipline. Like, it makes you want to do the thing, and discipline is you making yourself do the thing.

   19. JSJoe Santagato32:40

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson32:40

       Right? Like, that's Goggins and Jocko and getting up at 4:30 AM, and like spit and sawdust and willpower and stuff like that.

   21. JSJoe Santagato32:47

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson32:47

       But then there is this next level, which is obsession, and obsession is I can't not do the thing.

   23. JSJoe Santagato32:54

       Yes.

   24. CWChris Williamson32:54

       Like, I'm unable to stop myself from doing it.

   25. JSJoe Santagato32:57

       That has been something that is very present in my life for the longest time. I dropped out of college because of that feeling, and I, when I was... I, I went to a... I don't even know why I did this, but I was in high school. Uh, I went to a Catholic high school. I was a good student, you know, like, near 90s, you know, something like that, whatever letter that is. But, uh, when it came time to apply for colleges, I just never did it. Like, you're supposed to do that in, like, November or something, and I just never did it because... And I don't, I couldn't even tell you why. I don't even know what my rationale was at the time. But then I, well, I lied to my parents and I said, "Yeah, I applied here and there, and I'm, I'm just waiting," and like, just to put off hearing about it. Um, and then I eventually just went to... I told my parents I didn't get into any schools, and then I went, which is, like, insane if that actually happened, which, whatever. But I went to a community college. I went to a school called Queensborough Community College, and I did a semester there, and it was very hard for me because I, I just felt so strongly that it wasn't for me, and it bothered me that that's, like, a thing that a lot of people say. And I'm like, "Am I just one of those people that's like, 'Oh, you know, school's just not for me'" and it's kind of like-

   26. CWChris Williamson34:08

       Mm.

   27. JSJoe Santagato34:08

       Um, 'cause I didn't think I was better than it. Like, I st- I still don't think that, and I think that it has its place, for sure. Um, but there was something in me. There was, like, a feeling of like, "I can't go back." Like, I can't. Like, I, and I don't have a plan. At that time, I was making some YouTube videos, but they were amounting to nothing really. I enjoyed doing it, but it, it wasn't like I thought, "This is what I'm gonna do." This was also in 2011 when there wasn't influencers. There wasn't even Instagram. There was, there was nothing, so the, the idea that you could make a career off of this, like, didn't really exist. So there wasn't, like, this guiding light of like, "I'm gonna do this." I was doing YouTube videos, and I wasn't getting paid any money to do them, but I did feel like maybe if I grew this to a certain point, I could leverage the audience into, like, an audition for something. I don't know. Like, I wasn't really thinking, but I didn't necessarily want to be an actor. I just liked doing that at the time. But something was pushing me away, and I, I literally would drive to the school and sit in the car. Very dramatic. And I would just stare at the school, and I'm like, "I can't... I literally just can't m- get myself to go." And going back to why I'm an insane person, there was one time where I literally had, like, a notebook, and I r- just wrote out, like, a [laughs] an interview that, like, Barbara Walters was doing with me where she was, like, walking me around. She's like, "So this is your college." Like, and I was, like, thinking like that, like, I just want something so bad. I know I, I can't get it in there.

   28. CWChris Williamson35:39

       And you didn't even know what it was.

   29. JSJoe Santagato35:40

       No, which is stupid.

   30. CWChris Williamson35:42

       That's very... No, that's really interesting, right? Because you've got-- You had ambition without direction.
10. 36:50 – 44:04

    Does Lack of Direction Kill Ambition?

    1. CWChris Williamson36:50

       So that's, that's really, really interesting because I think a lot of the time people assume that in order to move you need to have a plan, you need to know where you're going. And that's kind of classic. My background on the podcast for the first couple of years was kind of productivity bro. It was deep work and, and focus timers and learning how to organize your desk and using notes apps and stuff.

    2. JSJoe Santagato37:12

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson37:12

       Almost everything didn't work except for just building up the muscle of trying to not get distracted and probably not using your phone as much as-

    4. JSJoe Santagato37:20

       Right. Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson37:20

       ... you want to. Right? Like, that's kind of it. Anyway, a lot of the standard advice is set your 25-year goal and then break it down into five-year periods, and then you do it in-

    6. JSJoe Santagato37:32

       Mm

    7. CWChris Williamson37:32

       ... 18-month blocks, and it's 90-day sprints and every day, da, da, da, da, da, build this all together.

    8. JSJoe Santagato37:38

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson37:39

       But it kind of bypasses the fact that if you're somebody that's got a passion, that's got passion, all you need to do is find something to plug that into.

    10. JSJoe Santagato37:49

        Right.

    11. CWChris Williamson37:50

        And I wonder how many people, because they have a fear of not knowing what it is that they want to do, they back themselves into something that feels safe because they're scared of having this drive but not having the direction, like ambition without direction.

    12. JSJoe Santagato38:09

        Mm.

    13. CWChris Williamson38:09

        Which fucking f- like, that's a lovely little framing. Um, they don't know where to put it, so they're like, "Well, I'll, I'll do this. I'll go to the college. I'll get the jo-" And then before they know it, they've kind of tumbled backward. They've s- there's an idea called sliding versus deciding. They've slid into a set of train tracks that they're now on where they're not able to use their passion. They're not that passionate about it, but it feels really safe.

    14. JSJoe Santagato38:32

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson38:32

        I'm super, super safe in this situation. But all of that passion is kind of still burning, doesn't really have anywhere to go, and after a while I get the sense that if you don't keep giving it at least the fuel of the potential for dream, that it sort of burns out.

    16. JSJoe Santagato38:49

        I think that there are people that probably have more passion than others because I do think there are people that are perfectly content with, uh, you know, going to college, getting a job, and, like, that's their life, and I think that's amazing. Like, I think that as long as you feel fulfilled, like, you should do that.

    17. CWChris Williamson39:03

        They are very lucky.

    18. JSJoe Santagato39:05

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson39:05

        They're very lucky-

    20. JSJoe Santagato39:06

        Yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson39:06

        ... because the alternative is that you need to contort yourself into this weird fucking shape.

    22. JSJoe Santagato39:11

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson39:11

        Run all over the planet trying to work out who you are.

    24. JSJoe Santagato39:14

        A part of me was afraid because I did hav- have all that passion, and I didn't know where to put it. Um, I think that, I think that if you're lucky enough to find something that really lights a fire in you, like something that you actually enjoy, like this is the thing-

    25. CWChris Williamson39:31

        Mm

    26. JSJoe Santagato39:32

        ... like you, it don't... For me, it's like you need to do it. Like I, I need to do that.

    27. CWChris Williamson39:37

        You can't not do it.

    28. JSJoe Santagato39:38

        I can't. Like, I can't. I have to. And that's why, like, dropping out of college felt like that. Like, I was... That was the first time that I felt something, like, it was almo- it had a physical reaction to me where it was like, "Dude, don't do that." And I, there was no fucking plan. And mind you, I was always like a good student growing up, and I played sports and stuff, and I felt like there was a lot of, uh, there was high expectations for me, and then I was not fulfilling that at all. And then I'm gonna go, "Well, I'm also dropping out of college," you know? And that was-

    29. CWChris Williamson40:07

        That's a lot of Ls in a short space of time.

    30. JSJoe Santagato40:09

        Oh my God, dude. It is a lot of Ls. And there was only one time where I was like, "Man, I'm fucking this up bad. Like, maybe I'm just like full of shit." Like you think, do you have... Just because I have all this passion-
11. 44:04 – 50:09

    When Did Trying Hard Become Lame?

    1. CWChris Williamson44:04

       What do you think about the sort of current trend of people trying to be nonchalant?

    2. JSJoe Santagato44:09

       That was such a British pronunciation. Nonchalant. I like that better, to be honest. Um-

    3. CWChris Williamson44:15

       Nonchalant.

    4. JSJoe Santagato44:16

       Nonchalant. Uh, in what way do you mean?

    5. CWChris Williamson44:20

       Well, you're talking about, "I want people to see me trying really hard."

    6. JSJoe Santagato44:23

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson44:23

       Trying hard, trying hard's kind of lame to-

    8. JSJoe Santagato44:26

       Yes

    9. CWChris Williamson44:26

       ... a certain category of people, especially people on the internet, which is why you exist.

    10. JSJoe Santagato44:30

        Everybody, like, thinks it's lame, yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson44:32

        So there's, there's a world at the moment that only ever talks in irony. Like, they only ever make ironic sentences-

    12. JSJoe Santagato44:41

        Mm-hmm

    13. CWChris Williamson44:41

        ... and ironic statements. Nobody stands for something legitimately. They only ever stand against things or kind of mock stuff or suggest... It's kind of like the passive-aggressive pushing of your own things. "Well, you know, like, this thing's, like, all right, I guess."

    14. JSJoe Santagato44:54

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson44:54

        As opposed to, "I am giving this my absolute fucking everything." In the UK, for instance, we have tall poppy syndrome, people that try really hard are called keenos, too keen. You're too keen for this thing.

    16. JSJoe Santagato45:06

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson45:06

        You're too excitable. You'd get called fucking very American if you that, dude. Like, that-

    18. JSJoe Santagato45:11

        [laughs] Damn

    19. CWChris Williamson45:11

        ... uh, really. Like, it's enthus- enthusiasm's looked down on to a degree, especially if you come from a working class background-

    20. JSJoe Santagato45:17

        Mm-hmm

    21. CWChris Williamson45:17

        ... which is, um, as scum class as I can be. Like, you are kind of encouraged to not get too big for your boots. I must have heard that thousands of times. "Don't get too big for your boots."

    22. JSJoe Santagato45:33

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson45:34

        "Don't have dreams that are too big."

    24. JSJoe Santagato45:35

        The thing with me is, like, I, I, I realize that, but if you're... People who are acting nonchalant about, especially about things that they are actually passionate about, it's just insecurity, like manifesting in that way, where it's like, "I need to appear like I'm not really trying, but I am trying," or whatever. Like, I, I'm not insecure about those things, so I'm like, "Don't worry, I got them." [laughs] But I'm not insecure about those things, so I'm willing to try really hard at them and fail and fall on my face or whatever, and it kind of excites me, too, that there's a lot of people that aren't willing to do that, 'cause it's like it... then it feels like I have a leg up on them because I'm, I'm willing to hit the ground super hard. Because when I hit the ground, like, then I know, like, that pa-

    25. CWChris Williamson46:17

        You're giving me the role

    26. JSJoe Santagato46:18

        ... you slammed a door in my face, 'cause so I know, like, okay, I got these to choose from now. Like, at least I have a decision. Like, you made a, a final decision. Like, it, that failed.

    27. CWChris Williamson46:25

        Hmm.

    28. JSJoe Santagato46:26

        Then I can move on. I'm not nonchalant about it because I'm not even doing it for the perception. I'm doing it for me. And when I say that I wanna earn it, it's not necessarily for outside validation. Like, I want to know when I go to sleep at night, like, you worked hard and you got that thing.

    29. CWChris Williamson46:41

        Mm-hmm.

    30. JSJoe Santagato46:41

        That feels really good. Like, that's an amazing feeling to know that I put my all into this thing. It started as an idea, I said it out loud, I worked hard to do it, and then it happened. That's an amazing feeling.
12. 50:09 – 55:07

    Is Authenticity Your Biggest Advantage?

    1. CWChris Williamson50:09

       I had the idea that if I could be authentic enough, it would work out.

    2. JSJoe Santagato50:15

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson50:15

       Like, what's that mean? If I could be authentic enough, you're... Most people would say, "If I could come up with a novel enough idea, if I could be creative enough, if I could work hard enough, if I could, uh, um, uh, find the right niche."

    4. JSJoe Santagato50:28

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson50:29

       You're saying the key competitive advantage, the key sort of fuel that you were optimizing for was authenticity.

    6. JSJoe Santagato50:38

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson50:38

       Why?

    8. JSJoe Santagato50:40

       For, well, for me at the time, like, it was, I was making YouTube videos, and a lot of people were kind of doing the same thing, so that felt like the only way that I can stand out is if I do things sort of my way, and I put my, like, kind of flair on it or whatever. I didn't wanna... And the things that other people were doing felt lazy to me. So I was like, "I'm not gonna do that. I'll do some other stuff. I'll, you know, I'll experimental." I mean, by the way, whatever I tried to do sucked. Besides the point. But I, my thought was, like, if I can stay authentic to my voice, then I'll stand out because there's only one of me, and there's only one of you, and I think that's true for anybody. Like, that ultimately is the goal. There, when you see something new, it's exciting. You know? Like, when a new thing drops, people want it. It's a brand-new thing. We haven't seen it before.

    9. CWChris Williamson51:29

       Mm-hmm.

    10. JSJoe Santagato51:29

        So if you are authentic and you sort of are placed on a platform or in a, you know, a, a medium like this or something and, and you're as authentic as you can be, you're going to stand out because guess what? There's a lot of other people that are just trying to be like the other ones who are already successful.

    11. CWChris Williamson51:45

        That is so fucking good. That's really, really good. You've... No one, no one can beat you at being you.

    12. JSJoe Santagato51:52

        No.

    13. CWChris Williamson51:52

        Right? Uh, but the problem is-

    14. JSJoe Santagato51:54

        It's the easiest job

    15. CWChris Williamson51:55

        ... to just be you.

    16. JSJoe Santagato51:55

        That's it.

    17. CWChris Williamson51:56

        No one can beat you at being you, but a lot of people are trying to be someone else.

    18. JSJoe Santagato52:01

        Yes. And, and maybe that is because of some sort of insecurity, and there's other stuff to unpack there, but, like, if you can get to a place where you're okay with yourself and you know yourself and you can apply that into... I mean, for me, I'm specifically talking about, like, content creation and-

    19. CWChris Williamson52:16

        Mm

    20. JSJoe Santagato52:16

        ... you know, that sort of thing. But if you can do that, uh, I think that that pays dividends in, in, in my field, like what I do. Like, I think that makes you stand apart from everyone else because if you are trying to dress and sound and make videos that look ex- Like, if you're trying to make the same videos as MrBeast, like what do you, what do you think, that you're just gonna be MrBeast?

    21. CWChris Williamson52:39

        Mm.

    22. JSJoe Santagato52:39

        Like, it already exists, and he's the guy.

    23. CWChris Williamson52:41

        Mm.

    24. JSJoe Santagato52:41

        And he has a specific formula. I think he also says a lot of, like, smart things about, like, how to create viral moments, and he actually gives really good advice in those ways. But thinking that you're going to make it because you're just going to copy him, I think is, it, it will hurt you ultimately.

    25. CWChris Williamson52:57

        You know what the interesting thing with that is? I, I've met Jimmy once for two minutes, so I don't really know him. Um, let's say that MrBeast isn't being MrBeast.

    26. JSJoe Santagato53:05

        Mm-hmm.

    27. CWChris Williamson53:05

        Let's say that he's performing in some way, his in- insecurity is driving him. Let's just say that that's the case. Regardless of whether he's being authentic or not, you trying to be him still won't work.

    28. JSJoe Santagato53:17

        Right. [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson53:18

        Which is the interesting thing, right? Even if you try to model someone who's being authentic, which not many people are by definition-

    30. JSJoe Santagato53:25

        Right
13. 55:07 – 1:02:13

    Turning Mistakes Into Momentum

    1. JSJoe Santagato55:07

       n- I think it's a, a mistake toOnly look at people that are like your heroes as like the people you need to follow. There's a lot of people around you that you can get things from that are going to help you. People who will have no-- don't know anything about your job-

    2. CWChris Williamson55:22

       Hmm

    3. JSJoe Santagato55:23

       ... or anything. Like my mom will say something that I'm like, "Huh, okay." And it doesn't, it's not always applied to the job, but it's also like my life, my actual personality, and the way that I approach life. The only way to grow is to completely, uh, is to constantly admit when you're wrong.

    4. CWChris Williamson55:40

       Hmm.

    5. JSJoe Santagato55:40

       In my opinion, that feels like I try to take responsibility for everything that goes wrong in my life. I truly try to do that because that's what I can control. I can't really control how other people are going to react or what's going to happen or whatever, but how... When something bad happens to you, to me, I think that there's an opportunity there when something bad happens to you where I can learn from this or I can take something from it, or I could just put up a wall and be like, "Wow, that person's fucked up." But like what is your involvement in that?

    6. CWChris Williamson56:12

       Hmm.

    7. JSJoe Santagato56:12

       You know, like something a, a, an easy example is if you're in a relationship and you get cheated on, it's like, "Well, what the fuck? Like sh- she's a whore. She's the whatever." But like what is your involvement actually? And I'm not saying that let's, let's absolve her, you know? Shouldn't have fucked Steve for sure. But like what could you get from that situation? C- Are you capable of getting to the point of like, even though that I was the safest option and I was taking care of her and I was nice to her, I never cheated on her, I never scream at her, I clean the house and I do whatever. Maybe you're boring though, and, and that's fine if you-

    8. CWChris Williamson56:45

       Or maybe you picked wrong.

    9. JSJoe Santagato56:46

       Or that too.

    10. CWChris Williamson56:47

        Maybe, maybe you weren't discerning in who you chose.

    11. JSJoe Santagato56:49

        Sure. But like it's on you in some capacity, 'cause even if you are, let's say like a boring guy or it's like super vanilla and you... They're just, it feels like every day is predictable and whatever, and she got bored. It's okay to admit that like, "Okay, that's something that happened to me." It doesn't mean that you have to change, 'cause if you don't want to, you don't have to.

    12. CWChris Williamson57:08

        Hmm.

    13. JSJoe Santagato57:09

        But at least know w- your involvement while still, you can still go like, "Fuck you."

    14. CWChris Williamson57:15

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JSJoe Santagato57:15

        But then you have to move on with your life.

    16. CWChris Williamson57:17

        And you're gonna learn from it as well.

    17. JSJoe Santagato57:18

        It already happened. Like there's no reason to not think about it and get something from it.

    18. CWChris Williamson57:22

        I've learned from over 1,000 podcast episodes that the easier you make your health routine, the more consistent you'll be. It's like golf, right? You want to keep it simple and not mix a bunch of pills. You want the eye of the tiger, not the DUI of the tiger. That's why I'm such a huge fan of AG1. One scoop contains 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food source ingredients in a single daily drink, and now they've taken it a step further with AG1 Next Gen, backed by four clinical trials, and in those trials, it was shown to fill common nutrient gaps, improve key nutrient levels in just three months, and increase healthy gut bacteria by 10 times, even in people who already eat well. Gone are the days of needing to buy a load of pills in the gym parking lot from some juice bro in a Cybertruck. But if you're unsure about it, AG1's got a 90-day money back guarantee, so you can try it every single day for three months, and if you do not like it, they will give you your money back. Right now, you can get a free AG1 welcome kit that includes a bottle of D3K2, an AG1 flavor sampler, and that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. You know, one of the reasons I think that people get angry and defensive in situations like that, it's not just that they've been wronged or this situation was hard and there's all of these emotions going around as well. It's that they know if they did a little bit of self or a lot of self-reflection, they made a mistake too, and just blaming the other person and doing the fuck you thing-

    19. JSJoe Santagato58:50

        Yeah

    20. CWChris Williamson58:50

        ... allows you to hide.

    21. JSJoe Santagato58:52

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson58:52

        It gives you distance from where you could have been responsible.

    23. JSJoe Santagato58:56

        Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson58:56

        And I think that's the reason people would rather get angry at someone else than get angry at themselves.

    25. JSJoe Santagato59:02

        100%.

    26. CWChris Williamson59:02

        And a lot of the time we have betrayed ourselves in situations. You have. It's like, you know, I, I, maybe I should have fucking paid a little bit more attention. Maybe I should have seen the red flags earlier. Maybe I should have heeded the advice from my business partner with that deal, or whatever it might be. That doesn't mean that you're a bad person. Not at all. It doesn't mean that you're less than or irredeemable or that things are broken, but it does mean that you've got something to learn, and kind of like if you're robbing yourself of the opportunity to learn that thing, it's already shit. You might as well try-

    27. JSJoe Santagato59:37

        Exactly

    28. CWChris Williamson59:37

        ... and get something good out of it.

    29. JSJoe Santagato59:38

        That's why like everyone looks back at them like... Well, I don't know about everyone. I don't know how you did in school, but like a lot of people [chuckles] that I know have like looked back, uh, in like high school or whatever and be like, "Bro, I wish I like tried harder 'cause then I could be, you know, blah, blah, blah."

    30. CWChris Williamson59:50

        Hmm.
14. 1:02:13 – 1:12:24

    How Family Shapes Who You Become

    1. JSJoe Santagato1:02:13

       Dude

    2. CWChris Williamson1:02:13

       ... you mentioned your mum a bunch.

    3. JSJoe Santagato1:02:15

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:02:15

       You're still super close with your mum, right?

    5. JSJoe Santagato1:02:17

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:02:18

       Millennials and Gen Z are basically cutting off their boomer parents at record rates and calling it healing, you know?

    7. JSJoe Santagato1:02:27

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:02:28

       What do you think about that? Like, families never felt more optional, and I think that's-

    9. JSJoe Santagato1:02:32

       Oof

    10. CWChris Williamson1:02:33

        ... worth interrogating.

    11. JSJoe Santagato1:02:34

        That's crazy. Um, you know, I, I don't know if I have a unique or niche-

    12. CWChris Williamson1:02:45

        Abnormally good relationship?

    13. JSJoe Santagato1:02:47

        Yeah. So, like, I, I think I'm probably in the minority, but my-- I'm very close with my family. And, you know, like, there, there's just, like, conversations. Like, I... My, my financial advisor has, like, said stuff, like, sometimes being like, "Yo, just, you know, a lot of people, like, y- you gotta-- when you're doing the will or you're doing whatever, like, you should be careful because a lot of people, like, whatever." My family has never asked me for anything. They're only supportive people. Especially my mother has never asked me for anything. No one has ever asked me for anything. Like, even my friends, like, they're just supportive. And they're not supportive in the way that they're gonna show up with their face painted and shit, but they'll, they'll be supportive. Uh, you know, I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing that would call for that anyway, to be fair. But that would be nice for them to show up while I'm recording a podcast and just stand in the corner. But, uh, yeah, m- my, my, my family, I'm very close to them. I can't imagine that. When I see things, like, online or you see it, like, in a movie sometimes or you kinda hear it that, like, someone has a brother that they don't talk to-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:03:48

        Yeah

    15. JSJoe Santagato1:03:48

        ... I'm like, "That's outrageous." Like, I would never let that fly. Like, I would fly across the world and kick my sister's door in and be like, "You're gonna fucking sit here and talk to me, and we're gonna figure this thing out." You know? Like, that's, that's how we deal with issues. Like, there's issues-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:04:06

        Home invasion.

    17. JSJoe Santagato1:04:06

        Home invasion, yeah. Kidnapping. Whatever I have to do, really. I can do anything. I kidnap.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:04:11

        Yeah.

    19. JSJoe Santagato1:04:11

        Um, but I, I, uh... Yeah, like, that's how we kinda deal with problems. When there's something going on or whatever, like, no one talks shit behind people's backs in my family. It's like, "You're gonna hear it 'cause it's gonna come out right now." And then it usually just results in, like, a very easy thing that you can kind of get over.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:04:27

        Mm.

    21. JSJoe Santagato1:04:27

        There's, there's rarely a long-lasting, under-the-table grudge or anything like that.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:04:35

        Mm.

    23. JSJoe Santagato1:04:35

        'Cause someone will just call it out. It's like, "What, are you fucking still mad?" Like, it'll just, you know? Like, it's just kinda like that. We're all just, like, very close growing up.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:04:42

        That is the most Queens approach to something.

    25. JSJoe Santagato1:04:44

        Yeah. "What, are you fucking still mad?"

    26. CWChris Williamson1:04:46

        [laughs]

    27. JSJoe Santagato1:04:47

        "The fuck?" But m- my mom, like, my mom is great. Uh, both my parents are great. My, my father lives in North Carolina now, and my mom, uh, is cl- is in New York. So there, there was an age where I think, you know... Uh, and I don't wanna speak for parents 'cause I don't have children, but I think that there's probably... In my life, it was important that my mom is my mom. She's always my mom, and we can't be friends. But we, but there was a shift in she s- she st- she stopped trying to be, like, this mother that's gonna make decisions for me.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:05:28

        Mm.

    29. JSJoe Santagato1:05:28

        You know? Like, I-

    30. CWChris Williamson1:05:28

        What age did that happen?
15. 1:12:24 – 1:23:16

    What Do Single Guys Do After 7pm?

    1. JSJoe Santagato1:12:24

       drive and go there.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:12:24

       We gotta, we gotta talk about that insight that we came up with last night, that if you're a guy who doesn't have a girlfriend in the house after 7:00 PM, you kind of go a bit insane.

    3. JSJoe Santagato1:12:36

       Dude.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:12:36

       What do you do?

    5. JSJoe Santagato1:12:38

       I, I could tell you, I have a friend who is single and lives on his own now, and I just get, like, random headstand pictures. I'm like, "Are you doing headstands? Like, what are you doing? You're stretching? Like, it's 8:30. What are you stretching for? You're getting... Like, how hard do you go to bed? Like, it's time for sleep soon. Like, what are you doing?" Like, it's, like, random things like that. I think I asked him recently, I was like, "Uh, what do you do all day?" He's a very busy guy. I don't wanna take away [laughs] but, like, during those hours it's like, how do you entertain yourself? 'Cause at this point, I don't know how to do that when, like, my fiancée leaves, I'm kind of likeWhat the hell do I do now? Like, there's no one here. Like, I just kinda like walk around, I like clean shit, and then I just like... There's not much to do. Like, I'm like, "Oh, this is kinda boring. Am I gonna go for a walk?" [laughs] I don't know.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:13:35

       You find yourself building weird hobbies. So-

    7. JSJoe Santagato1:13:37

       Yeah

    8. CWChris Williamson1:13:38

       ... I was leaving the house last night to go out to dinner with you because you're an insane person and decided to have dinner at 7:30 PM, which for me is like, is that not fucking late?

    9. JSJoe Santagato1:13:46

       What are you talking about?

    10. CWChris Williamson1:13:47

        Is that late? That's pretty fucking late. That's pretty fucking late.

    11. JSJoe Santagato1:13:49

        Is this an Austin thing?

    12. CWChris Williamson1:13:50

        That's not late. That's fucking-

    13. JSJoe Santagato1:13:52

        7:30 is late?

    14. CWChris Williamson1:13:53

        Okay, we're split 50/50 in the room. 7:30, yeah. Well, you was on fucking Eastern Time ago.

    15. JSJoe Santagato1:13:59

        That's 8:30.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:13:59

        Uh, so I'm leaving the house, and his girlfriend's in Costa Rica. And [laughs] he looks at me, and he looked really sad, and he's like, came up and he whispered, and he's like, "I don't know what to do."

    17. JSJoe Santagato1:14:10

        [laughs] I said, "Where are you going?"

    18. CWChris Williamson1:14:12

        "I don't know what to do." Like puppy dog eyes. It's like, "I don't know what to do." I'm like, "George, it's fine. You'll do-- I don't know what, you'll, you read stuff or whatever." And I got back, and he'd written all of this stuff, and he had Post-it notes everywhere. So he'd done, he was doing headstands.

    19. JSJoe Santagato1:14:25

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:14:25

        He'd done his equivalent of doing headstands.

    21. JSJoe Santagato1:14:28

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:14:28

        And then at 10:30 PM, just 11 o'clock after I got back from dinner, I must have heard him sneeze 15 times in a row.

    23. JSJoe Santagato1:14:39

        What the hell was he doing?

    24. CWChris Williamson1:14:40

        Fucking 15 times in a row.

    25. JSJoe Santagato1:14:42

        That's-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:14:43

        This is agitating to me.

    27. JSJoe Santagato1:14:45

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:14:46

        How annoying must that be if you're the sort of per- What's the most number of times that you've ever sneezed in a row?

    29. JSJoe Santagato1:14:50

        I've never gotten close to 15. I think you'd die-

    30. CWChris Williamson1:14:54

        Three
16. 1:23:16 – 1:28:08

    How to Protect Your Creativity

    1. CWChris Williamson1:23:16

       All right, so you said, um, you've got these sort of two sides of your brain that are working, and you've got the business side and then you've got the creativity side.

    2. JSJoe Santagato1:23:25

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:23:26

       How do you protect the creative side of your brain when the business side never stops demanding attention?

    4. JSJoe Santagato1:23:34

       Fortunately for me, I don't really need to do that. The, the, the separate-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:23:37

       You did for a long time.

    6. JSJoe Santagato1:23:38

       What?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:23:38

       You did have to do both of those things.

    8. JSJoe Santagato1:23:40

       No, no, I'm saying I, I, I don't have to separate them.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:23:42

       Okay.

    10. JSJoe Santagato1:23:43

        Like, I can be creative and that helps my business. Um, I'm not good at multitasking, so, like, if I-- Like, if I'm te- as much as I [laughs] will be like, "I'm listening," when I'm texting someone and someone's talking to me, I can't, I can't even hear anything.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:23:58

        I'm not listening.

    12. JSJoe Santagato1:23:58

        And I have this thing too with, like, noise, like, I think it's called misophonia, but it's like, if there's, like, a couple of sounds going on, I just can't.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:24:07

        That-

    14. JSJoe Santagato1:24:07

        I'm so distracted

    15. CWChris Williamson1:24:07

        ... that's me too.

    16. JSJoe Santagato1:24:08

        I can't read unless it's like-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:24:10

        That's got a name?

    18. JSJoe Santagato1:24:10

        Huh?

    19. CWChris Williamson1:24:10

        I just thought-

    20. JSJoe Santagato1:24:11

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:24:11

        I thought that was being an only, being an autistic only child again.

    22. JSJoe Santagato1:24:14

        It could be. I don't know. But, I mean, someone getting-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:24:16

        So when there's noises going on, you're super easily distracted and you can't focus?

    24. JSJoe Santagato1:24:20

        I-- It would really bother-- Like, certain noises, like, really bother me. Not, not certain specific noises, but when they're like... If the TV is on and someone's phone is playing, like, a video really loud, like, I am, I can't even focus. Or if I'm watching a movie and the AC is on even, I like, I gotta shut it off. Like, I can't.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:24:37

        Mm.

    26. JSJoe Santagato1:24:38

        Like, it, it, I just can't, like, focus. The reason why I say that is because if I had to separate those two things, I don't really think I could. I have worked normal jobs before, obviously, and once the... Like, the, the creative thing is so intense with me that there are times where I had an idea one time for an app. I don't even know what's going on. I don't know why. Well, I, I didn't actually wanna do it, but sometimes when I, a, a, an idea will pop into my head and I, and I have to flush it out right now. And, and I sent it to Greg, and he was like, "This is the dumbest thing I've ever seen." And I was like, "Yeah, I just needed to get it off." But I, I was driving to the gym and I had this idea and I was like, "Ooh, that sounds like a good idea." Like, I'm gonna start whatever. And I was, like, in my car doing it, and then I got so distracted of like, I have to go home so that I could finish this. So I left and I went home, and I didn't even get into the gym. I just turned my car around and went home.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:25:29

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JSJoe Santagato1:25:29

        And I typed this whole thing out and I was like, "Yo," and I sent it to Greg, and I was like, "What do you think about this?" He's like, "So stupid." And I'm like, "Cool, I'm going to the gym." [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson1:25:36

        Go back to the gym.

    30. JSJoe Santagato1:25:37

        But that's how intense it is for me. Like, I can't multitask and feel like... Like, once I'm creatively inspired by something, like, it has to happen now. Like, there are so many times where I don't know how this happens, but I'll wake up first thing and write, like, a joke or something. I wrote most of my set for-MSG that I did at MSG at that time. Like waking up and being like, "Oh, I don't even know what that's about."
17. 1:28:08 – 1:33:30

    Why You Shouldn’t Force Creativity

    1. JSJoe Santagato1:28:08

       [laughs]

    2. CWChris Williamson1:28:09

       Uh, there's a, a, a line that I fucking love, which is you can't white-knuckle creativity.

    3. JSJoe Santagato1:28:14

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:28:15

       That I think when you try and force it-

    5. JSJoe Santagato1:28:17

       Yeah

    6. CWChris Williamson1:28:17

       ... it almost never comes out. Like, your best ideas, your best jokes. Have you ever, can you ever remember a time when you've tried to really force a piece of creativity and it's come through? 'Cause for me, it, it never happens.

    7. JSJoe Santagato1:28:29

       No, I mean-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:28:29

       It's like an erection. The harder you try for it, the more it runs away.

    9. JSJoe Santagato1:28:32

       [laughs] Runs away.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:28:35

        It does run away from you.

    11. JSJoe Santagato1:28:36

        It's a good metaphor.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:28:37

        Yeah.

    13. JSJoe Santagato1:28:37

        Um, yeah, I, I am horrible at that. Especially, like, it's like, okay, I'm gonna set aside time and I'm gonna do this thing.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:28:45

        Be creative.

    15. JSJoe Santagato1:28:45

        I can't do it. Without someone's help. I think that Greg's probably better at that, 'cause we work, like, creatively on a lot of things, but he's, he's also very good at, like, prompting me. Like, if I can get a prompt or I can get, like, a, an, a something, like a seed of an idea, then I'm, I'm in, and I can, we can start doing this right now. Um, but for me to go from zero to a creative thought, like, that's always been very difficult for me. I guess-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:29:11

        Riffing is, riffing is significantly easier.

    17. JSJoe Santagato1:29:14

        Insanely.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:29:15

        Yeah.

    19. JSJoe Santagato1:29:15

        Insanely. Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:29:16

        Well, I-

    21. JSJoe Santagato1:29:16

        That is better

    22. CWChris Williamson1:29:17

        ... I have never been in a writer's room really for much, but for Neutonic, we do, uh, skits and sketches and stuff for the different ads and new flavor releases and things like that, and then we've done some for my tour announcements, and I didn't realize that what we were doing was sitting in a writer's room, right? I'm aware that this has been done for, like, fucking 100 years. And people realize that if you come in with an idea and you have a bunch of people who are all working on the same thing at the same time, you go, "Why don't we, uh... No, no. Well, what if we..." And you bounce that around. But it doesn't just need to be constrained to people that are making movies.

    23. JSJoe Santagato1:29:55

        Right.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:29:55

        It can be anybody in a team. You know, okay, let's just come in with some ideas and talk about what the fuck's going on. And if you've got one person that's at least a bit diligent, the person who's got a shit ton of creativity kind of gets jumping off points. Because I don't know about you, but I get really excitable and enthusiastic when stuff like that. I'm like, "Ooh, ooh, yeah, yeah, and..." And then, but it does need that, and it's like rolling a boulder down a hill, just needs that push at the start.

    25. JSJoe Santagato1:30:22

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:30:22

        But I'm really bad at pushing it. I'm really fucking good at rolling down a hill.

    27. JSJoe Santagato1:30:26

        Yeah. And sometimes all it takes is a question or, like, even the worst idea I've ever heard to be like, "No, this." Like, it's like I just can't go from zero to 100. Like-

    28. CWChris Williamson1:30:38

        No, it's zero to one.

    29. JSJoe Santagato1:30:39

        Zero to one. Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:30:39

        Yeah.
18. 1:33:30 – 1:42:13

    The Importance of Keeping Work and Play Separate

    1. JSJoe Santagato1:33:30

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:33:30

       Uh, don't take yourself too seriously, but do take the work seriously.

    3. JSJoe Santagato1:33:35

       Absolutely. I mean, that's, it's, it's similar to what I was saying before where you have to be humble. Like, don't take yourselves too seriously. I mean, especially me at the end of the day, like what the fuck am I doing? I'm like, you know, I'm not changing lives here. Like I'm trying to be funny, trying to be entertaining. I'm doing a podcast with my friend that I've known the longest, and I have like a very, uh, you know, it's, it's demanding, but like it's, it's a fun job ultimately. And like my job is to have fun. And I do take it very seriously, especially at this point, because I think that a lot of people from what I've seen, like our fans, they get a lot of, a lot from it. It helps them escape things.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:34:14

       Yeah.

    5. JSJoe Santagato1:34:15

       Um, I don't necessarily feel that part because that's hard to imagine that I could be that for someone, even though I can very much imagine other people being that for me. Um, I can't imagine that. Uh, so I, I take it very seriously because I, I want to earn it. I want to be good at something. I want other people in the space to respect the things that I've done and the approach and those sort of things. But at the same time, I'm not over here like, "Yo, I'm changing the world," or I'm doing whatever. And I don't, I don't know that I'll ever have that, to be honest with you. I mean, I, I just don't... I don't think that helps anybody to take yourself super seriously and act like, you know, just arrogant about their decisions. Like even when you get the thing that you've been working for for so long, like now's not the time to be like, "I fucking told you." 'Cause that also feels like, did you do that in spite of someone? Like, I'm not doing anything in spite of somebody or because I'm insecure and I need to appear a certain way to other people. Like this is for me. I want to do it.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:35:20

       Hmm.

    7. JSJoe Santagato1:35:20

       And I, and I enjoy doing it. So that's my motivation. Like I'm trying to just enjoy my life and I'm trying to help as many people as I can, truly. Like that's truly what I'm trying to do. That's it. And it's very simple and I'm completely content in that, and I'll try to find new ways to do that. I believe that I can find new ways to do that, and that's it. And it's very, also very important for me to make sure that everyone is happy while we're doing it because our job is to have fun and to, uh, entertain other people. But in order to do that, you need to be happy, right? I can't have you be disgruntled. I can't have you feel like... And also, m- like my company, the things that, the, the way that I run things, like you're not gonna miss a birthday or you're not gonna miss... Your, your, your marriage isn't gonna go by the wayside because of me. Like I'm, that's not gonna happen. Like we're, we're very flexible at what time... No one's late to shit that I have to do. Like you can't be late to things. I mean, I was late today, but that was like a, [chuckles] that was a, that was a time zone thing. That wasn't like a respect thing.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:36:29

       My eyes just kept getting wider and wider as you were talking. [laughs]

    9. JSJoe Santagato1:36:32

       You were late, dude. But like I, I, like no one can be like late for stuff. Like we'll, we'll get it done, whatever. But you know, there's, there's people who have children and it's like you're, you're there for the morning, you're there for, you know, the evening, and we have a very loose like, uh, a work schedule and I want that. I want there to be this balance. I do see my job as an extension of me, but it's a completely different part of my life. My personal life is very important to me and I, and I truly like live a, a great life. I have a, a, like a, a great social life and friends and I like to go out and stuff like that, and I do enjoy my job as well, but it feels like two separate worlds in a way. Uh, it's rare-

    10. CWChris Williamson1:37:10

        Yeah, mine, mine does too.

    11. JSJoe Santagato1:37:10

        It's rare that I would get around people... Like I really wouldn't enjoy, I don't think, h- hanging out with people and the on- and when I hang out with them, we're always talking about podcasting or, you know, uh, just something that I'm doing at work 'cause I'd be like, "Bro, I just like..." I'm just not interested in it that much, to be honest with you. Like I, I, I'm interested in it when I'm doing it. I can't do it when I'm kind of like... We can acknowledge that I have a job that does that or whatever, but like I'm just not interested in it that much. I don't really watch a lot of podcasts. I don't watch any real YouTubers like, or, or anything like that. It's just not what I'm into. Like I, I, I, I just have like a normal life and I do this thing on the side. That's kind of like what it feels like.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:37:58

        I always think about MMA fighters. I'm kind of friends with a couple, but no one super, super high level. But if you were friends with fucking Sean Strickland or whatever andActually, Sean's a bad, bad example 'cause he's an insane-

    13. JSJoe Santagato1:38:12

        [laughs]

    14. CWChris Williamson1:38:13

        Who's a, who's a really normal person that happens to be a super high level... Dustin Poirier. Yeah, perfect example. Or like Michael Chandler, someone like that, like just normal dudes that happen-- like if they didn't wear things that showed off the fact that they're fucking animals. And then you're like, you're such a normal guy except for this bit of your life.

    15. JSJoe Santagato1:38:33

        Right.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:38:33

        And then in this one area, if I put you in a very specific situation, you're the most abnormal person on the planet.

    17. JSJoe Santagato1:38:39

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:38:40

        And I guess it's kind of a l- or like a fucking porn star or something. You're like, "Hey,"

    19. JSJoe Santagato1:38:44

        [laughs]

    20. CWChris Williamson1:38:44

        "In this one scenario-

    21. JSJoe Santagato1:38:45

        Yeah

    22. CWChris Williamson1:38:46

        ... things are kind of extreme." And outside of that-

    23. JSJoe Santagato1:38:49

        Yeah

    24. CWChris Williamson1:38:49

        ... you're probably just a normal fucking dude.

    25. JSJoe Santagato1:38:51

        Yeah. And it's like that much is obvious that like I'm not over here like, "I'm just a normal guy. Like fr- my life is not fucking outrageous or anything." But I, I, I... There is a definite feel of like these things are separate, and it's important for me to have that and to make sure that everyone is, has a flexible schedule. I think that's the ultimate dream, right? You wanna be able to, at least for me and the people that I've hired and keep around me, is like we wanna be creative. We want to be able to see our families and have freedom to do certain things. And I also encourage anybody that, that works for me or does whatever to like... If you have your own creative thing that you want to do, I'm in full support of that.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:39:33

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JSJoe Santagato1:39:33

        Like, and if we can help in some sort of way, we will. And I, I just... My job is a lot easier if everyone's happy.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:39:42

        Mm-hmm.

    29. JSJoe Santagato1:39:42

        So I try to keep people as happy as possible. Like of course there's times we have to like sort of reel that in a little bit, but for the most part it's like this needs to be a good experience. When we go on tour, like we're not staying in like just this, like the cheapest hotel. W- I'm trying to like book a really cool Airbnb or something that has like a pool and a cool view or whatever, 'cause I want people to feel like we're, we're all gonna look back on this thing in our life. This is not a normal thing. Like no one gets to do this. This is very abnormal, and I want people to look back on it and feel like, "That was such a great time in my life." Like I know that I will look back on some of those pictures, and now we have all these memories attached to them, not just the fact that like, "Oh my God, that was so cool that we were able to do that when we were younger," but also like, "Oh, do you remember when we went and did this thing too and when we were blah, blah, blah?" Like we tried to go to all these cities and do something fun and tr- try to get it on camera or like there's photos and things like that. Like I, I want it to, to be something that you can look back on like super fondly.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:40:46

        Mm.
19. 1:42:13 – 1:52:21

    The Biggest Opportunities Joe Has Turned Down

    1. CWChris Williamson1:42:13

       What's the biggest opportunity that you've ever turned down?

    2. JSJoe Santagato1:42:17

       I mean, I turned down doing the tour for a number of years because at that point a lot of people were like, "You could just go on stage and talk to each other, and then you could make a bunch of money doing that." And I'm like, "That's just not... No, that's not cool. Like I'm not doing that, and I don't care. Like I don't c- uh, care." At a... There was a time, I remember specifically when I was doing YouTube, um, there was a, a brand deal that came in for $75,000, and what they wanted was t- for me to, and this was kind of abnormal at the time, to promote a phone game that was like something with zombies.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:42:52

       Mm-hmm.

    4. JSJoe Santagato1:42:53

       I was like, "What?" But they wanted... Which I was okay with doing, but I always did, uh, advertisements at the very end of my video. Um, and that's the way I did things because I was like, the product needs to be there. I mean, people are gonna shut it off, but like whatever, I'm gonna stay true to that 'cause I'm building something here. But they wanted me to put it in the first like 30 seconds or a minute, and that's why they were paying $75,000. And I was like, "I'm not doing that. Like I'm not doing that." And there's, there's been other deals. I mean, it, it happens a lot. There's, there's been six-figure deal- deals that I'm like, "No, I'm not doing that 'cause I don't wanna do that."

    5. CWChris Williamson1:43:29

       Because the brand wasn't aligned?

    6. JSJoe Santagato1:43:31

       Or it's like they just want me to do something that I'm not comfortable doing, that I'm just like, "No." Like I, I won't. Why would I do that? Espe- I'm als- I'm almost offended that... And it used to be worse. My agent one time, [laughs] I was, I was, uh, I did this thing, um, with The Rock, right? So they... This is a good example actually with this. I got hit up through my email from The Rock's team, and he was starting his YouTube channel at the time. This was a while ago. And they were gonna do this, uh-This series called Rock the Promo where they would have wrestlers kind of like as a guest host, and then they would have like, you know, just people who wanted to be whatever, they would like cut promos. They would like have a character-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:44:14

       That's a good idea.

    8. JSJoe Santagato1:44:14

       Yeah, so that's, that was on the YouTube channel. They asked me to host it, to be the guy that hosts and then does like color, color commentary, and I was like, "Oh my God, that's awesome." They're like, "Yeah, it's The Rock, and like the finale, you'll, you'll be with him and you guys will do it together." And I was like, "This is awesome." And they're like, "Yeah, it's filming in LA, and we'll need you there for like two weeks or whatever." And I was like, "Oh, forget it. No. Like, I'm not doing that."

    9. CWChris Williamson1:44:37

       Why?

    10. JSJoe Santagato1:44:37

        'Cause I didn't wanna go to LA. I, I, I, I was making YouTube videos and I was doing my podcast at the time, which wasn't like super successful or anything, but I like had a schedule and I liked that and I like my life. You're asking me to go there for two weeks. It also at the time didn't pay a lot, but that didn't really matter 'cause it could have been whatever. I mean, unless it was like life-changing, then I would've been like, "All right, fuck all this. I'm going." Um, 'cause I, I didn't have a lot of money at that time, but I was like, "No, I can't. Like, I'm not doing that." Apparently, he really wanted me to do it, so they moved the recording to New York and we recorded it in New York, and then the part that's funny is like, this is why I'm saying like it used to be worse, 'cause when someone tries to incentivize me with money, that bothers me like crazy. If they... Like, you think that you could have bought me with that. It's like, "All right, I want you to do this." And I'm like, "I don't wanna do that." It's like, "All right, what if we give you this money?" It's like, what do you think of me that you can buy me into... Like, I just said I don't wanna do it, you know what I mean? Like, it won't be about the money. So in this situation, it was funny. The thing that I hated also back then was like you would go into a meeting and people start name-dropping, like, "Yeah, we've worked with this and this and this," and I'm like, "I don't care. Why do I care?" Like, let's talk about the thing that we're doing. Is, is it gonna be good? Can you be helpful or, or can I be helpful even? And on the set of, uh... By the way, amazing thing with The Rock's team, and I eventually met him and oh, that's a cool story that I should tell you. But on set, the, uh, the PA there was like saying something, and then she's like, "Oh, yeah, uh..." She like mentioned someone's name, and then she was like, "Oh," and I was like, "Well," I was like, "What was that?" She's like, "Oh, your agent was like, 'Try not to name-drop ''cause that bothers you.'" And I was like, "Oh, God. What have I done?" [laughs] I was like, I was like, "Who, what is this monster that I've created?"

    11. CWChris Williamson1:46:26

        Your rep- your reputation precedes you.

    12. JSJoe Santagato1:46:27

        Yeah, I was like, "Oh, my God." I'm like, it's not that bad. I'm like, not, definitely not in this sort of situation because, you know, I was just happy to be there. Um, but The Rock dude was the nicest guy in my experience. Like, I hadn't had any back and forth with him at all-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:46:45

        Hmm

    14. JSJoe Santagato1:46:46

        ... during this, this thing, and then the finale of this thing was filming in Vegas and he was gonna be there. He was flying from Hawaii filming one of the Jumanjis I guess, and coming back, doing this thing, then going to host the Mr. Olympia whatever the fuck, and then going back to Hawaii in one day. Psychotic. But on the way over to Vegas, I'm like on the plane and I'm by myself, so I'm like, "I'm just gonna kill some time. I'm gonna write a sketch, and then I'm gonna send it to his producer," 'cause I had his email. And I'm like, "Oh, if The Rock wants to be on my YouTube channel, like here's," you know, whatever. So I wrote this thing out and I sent it to, uh, his producer. Never heard anything. But get to set and he shows up eventually, and everyone's like crowding him, you know, whatever, and I'm kinda like n- now I'm like nervous 'cause I'm like, "Okay, I can't fuck this up." Like, I had some lines that I had to whatever, and I was like hosting this thing. He comes up to me, the nicest guy in the world. Like, like we're boys. Like the guy... By the end of the shoot, like we were joking around in between takes. The director's like, "All right, fucking stop." Like, they... He was... It was kind of like that. Like, "Come on, we gotta fucking, we got time," or whatever. Like, we were just joking around. The guy who was doing the lighting on the set was like, "How long have you guys known each other?" I'm like, "I just fucking met that guy." He's like, "What? I would've thought you guys were friends for years."

    15. CWChris Williamson1:48:13

        Hmm.

    16. JSJoe Santagato1:48:13

        Like, he was super nice to me. At the end of the shoot, he comes up to me and he goes, "Uh, I know you sent that script, but, uh, you know..." And I was like, "What the fuck is he talking about?" I had forgotten. I was already like, "This is an amazing experience." So I was like, "Who the fuck is he talking about some script?" And he's like, "I can't do the script, but what do you say we just like improv like a scene?" A- and he's... And I was like, "Okay." And he's like, "What do you want the scene to be?" I was like, "Okay, why don't we just have like an argument that, you know, I wasn't your like first or second choice to be host, and I'll just get offended by that, and at the end you'll just give me a Rock Bottom." And he was like, "All right, cool." So then they turn the cameras on and we just improvved a scene, one take, and we, and I put it out, and like there's a video on my YouTube channel where it's that.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:48:55

        Can we watch that? Can you get that up? I wanna see you getting Rock Bottomed.

    18. JSJoe Santagato1:48:58

        If we can find it. I... It cuts in the middle. I didn't like hit the deck. I would've liked to. I did get a diamond cutter though one time from-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:49:06

        What's that?

    20. JSJoe Santagato1:49:06

        ... from DDP. [laughs] Diamond Dallas Page. He's like a wrestler, and the job that me and Greg like used to... We met at, we used to work for this company Elite Daily. He came in to shoot like a video, and we all were just like, "Yo, can you give us a diamond cutter?" 'Cause there was like a pad that we had, so he's just diamond cutting everyone in the office. [laughs] There he is. It was a different time. Don't judge the, the tightness of my pants.

    21. SPSpeaker1:49:30

        Hey, listen, man, I just wanna thank you-

    22. JSJoe Santagato1:49:32

        No

    23. SPSpeaker1:49:32

        ... for doing such a great job on-

    24. JSJoe Santagato1:49:33

        Thank you

    25. SPSpeaker1:49:34

        ... Rock the Promo.

    26. JSJoe Santagato1:49:34

        Look, I really appreciate being like your first-round draft pick for this. It really, that means a lot to me. Thank you.

    27. SPSpeaker1:49:38

        Oh, hey, no problem. I don't know if first round... What is first round? You mean like my first choice?

    28. JSJoe Santagato1:49:42

        Yeah, man, yeah.

    29. SPSpeaker1:49:42

        Uh, well, you weren't quite my first choice, but, hey, you were-

    30. JSJoe Santagato1:49:45

        Wait, hold on
20. 1:52:21 – 2:02:02

    How to Be Authentic Without Being Impulsive

    1. JSJoe Santagato1:52:21

       for that time.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:52:22

       How do you know the difference between being authentic and impulsive?

    3. JSJoe Santagato1:52:26

       I don't think that I did. I don't think I did. I mean, I, I like to think that I'm not a-

    4. CWChris Williamson1:52:33

       You know what I mean?

    5. JSJoe Santagato1:52:33

       I, I don't think I-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:52:33

       You can make a rash decision like that and go, "Well, that felt authentic," or, "That feels authentic to me," but it's actually maybe a decision that you haven't been sufficiently considerate around.

    7. JSJoe Santagato1:52:43

       Sure. I, I think that I make an effort to not make emotional decisions. So if I'm very angry and I would like to say no, I'm like, "I gotta walk away from this so that I can, can, can make a decision not based on that." So I think that's a, that's a helpful thing, um, like through therapy, is, like, emotional decision-making, I think... I mean, it can be good and bad. It can work out, but also you can live to regret that because you're like, "Oh, I made that when I was not in the, the clearest head space," or, "I did that in spite of something." Like, that's also a, a, a thing that I desperately try not to do. Like, I don't wanna do anything in spite of something. Like, I, I wanna do something-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:53:21

       To try and prove someone else or something else.

    9. JSJoe Santagato1:53:23

       Yeah, like, that would, that would just be, like, a, a- an insecurity thing. Like, I'm, I'm trying to be a secure person, which I consider myself, like, a secure person, especially when it comes to, like, creative stuff like that. Like, of course, I have moments of insecurity. But when it comes to decision-making, I need to be in a, in a point and, and, like, give myself some credit for, like, you've, you've made it this far following your gut and your intuition.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:53:48

        Mm.

    11. JSJoe Santagato1:53:48

        So just make a call. And if you're wrong, which I've been wrong many times, it's my fault, fine. But I... What I can't live with is someone being... Like, a, like, a, an agent or something being like, "This is the thing for you. This is what you have to do," and then I end up doing that, and I don't like it, and it doesn't work out. 'Cause a lot of stuff now doesn't work out for people, like, creatively. Like, shit doesn't work all the time. Like, that's part of the job kind of. But, like, if, if it was on them, I'd be furious ''cause then it-

    12. CWChris Williamson1:54:22

        Yeah

    13. JSJoe Santagato1:54:22

        ... it would feel like, oh my God, I, like, I let it go for a second. I let go of the reins, and I let someone dictate, you know? And, and I knew-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:54:31

        I can't even own my failure.

    15. JSJoe Santagato1:54:32

        Yeah, like, I can't even... Like, my failure is that I let you [laughs] make the decision almost, you know? Like-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:54:39

        Yeah. There's a... The word that's coming to mind is conviction.

    17. JSJoe Santagato1:54:43

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:54:43

        Doing something with conviction.

    19. JSJoe Santagato1:54:45

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:54:45

        And, uh, both me and George, Big Nose Sneezes Alot, our co-theme for 2026 is high conviction. We both wanna be more high conviction with things. So that's when I have a sense that this is the right thing, commit to that thing.

    21. JSJoe Santagato1:55:03

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:55:04

        And it is way better to be high conviction and fail than low conviction and fail.

    23. JSJoe Santagato1:55:14

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:55:14

        Way better.

    25. JSJoe Santagato1:55:15

        Yeah. Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:55:15

        Because at least when you're high conviction and fail, you get to learn, you get to update, you get to, "Oh, I'm... Fuck, okay. Like, I, I, I went for that. Next time, when I go for it again, I'll do it slightly differently-

    27. JSJoe Santagato1:55:28

        Yeah

    28. CWChris Williamson1:55:28

        ... or I'll go for something else." But the low conviction failure thing, you're not even moving. Like-

    29. JSJoe Santagato1:55:33

        Yeah

    30. CWChris Williamson1:55:33

        ... you're just being sort of swept along. You're not learning decision-making, and that's... it's, again, it's that sliding versus deciding thing.
21. 2:02:02 – 2:15:46

    What Matters Most in Life?

    1. JSJoe Santagato2:02:02

       do it now.

    2. CWChris Williamson2:02:02

       Have you ever heard the parable of the Mexican fisherman? Have you heard this?

    3. JSJoe Santagato2:02:07

       He's Mexican in this one? I thought he was from a different country, honestly.

    4. CWChris Williamson2:02:11

       Which fisherman is this?

    5. JSJoe Santagato2:02:12

       I'm, I'm-- I don't know. It could've been, I don't, I don't know.

    6. CWChris Williamson2:02:13

       Okay. An American investment banker was at a small pier on a small coastal town village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat was several large l- yellowfin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took him to catch them. The Mexican replied, "Only a little while." The American then asked, "Why didn't you stay out longer and catch more fish?" The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's immediate needs. The American then asked, "But what do you do with the rest of your time?" The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, Maria, and stroll into the village every evening where I sip wine and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life." The American scoffed. "I have an MBA from Harvard and can help you," he said. "You should spend more time fishing. With the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, and eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman, you could sell directly to the processor and eventually open up your own cannery. You could control the product, processing, and distribution," he said. "Of course, you would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City and then Los Angeles and eventually to New York City where you will run your expanding enterprise." The Mexican fisherman asked, "But how long will all this take?" To which the American replied, "Oh, 15 to 20 years or so." "But what then?" asked the Mexican. The American laughed and said, "That's the best part. When the time was right, you would announce an IPO. You could sell your company's stock to the public and become very rich. You would make millions." "Millions? Then what?" The American said, "Then you could retire, move to a small coastal fishing village where you could sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, and stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play guitar with your amigos." Life is often simpler than we make it.

    7. JSJoe Santagato2:03:52

       [laughs] Yeah, dude. I mean, that's great. That's, that's exactly what I'm saying. Like, that's, that's so true. Like, I, I think that it's tough. Like, a lot of people sometimes they, their identity becomes their job. I'm very, uh, self-aware about that, that I don't want that. Um, especially I think that would make me unlikable if my job and, uh, some sort of like the, the followers and doing live shows and... A- already sometimes people are probably like, "Oh, that person probably sucks." Like they think they're the man or whatever. Like I, I separate these things 'cause they're, they're completely different. I, I just want to enjoy my life. Like I'm, I'm already-- It's already good enough. That doesn't slow me down because I have passions and things that I want to accomplish, but I will never sacrifice the things that actually matter in my life. Like I'm not gonna miss a birthday.

    8. CWChris Williamson2:04:41

       I was gonna say, what matters?

    9. JSJoe Santagato2:04:45

       What matters is... What matters is, is making sure that I'm being a good person, dude. Like honestly, like, uh, I just want people when I pass away to be like, "That was a good dude." And like that's pretty much the extent of it. Like I just want that. And I, and I... Ideally that would come from, you know, the, like everybody. I, I, I want to be as helpful as I can. I do wanna make an impact in some sort of way, but I, I really just, like I just wanna be a good dude. And I, and I just want to earn things 'cause I think that makes me feel good to, to know that I'm putting work in and, and trying to earn something and I'm getting things back from it. That's a, that feels like a really cool exchange. But I, I really just wanna be a good dude. And, and I think there's also this, uh, this notion online where it's like if you're, if you're 20 years old and you're not fucking drop shipping and you're not fucking like into crypto and fucking wearing blue-tinted glasses that like you're a fucking loser. Like I don't think it's... Y- your life isn't the Lambo, dude. This isn't the end-all be-all. It's like the Lambo, like that everyone's like, "I'm gonna get some money, then I'll buy a Lambo." It's like you don't need to do that. Like I do th- like I don't wanna say that like, you know, some people who are very successful will just be like, "Oh, well money isn't, will, won't make you happy." I think that's insane to say that. Like of course it will make you happy. It t- having financial security is a massive weight off your shoulders, so that already is like, that trumps everything. That like the argument of like it won't make you happy. I get what people are saying when they say that. It's not like you could buy your way to happiness. It's like, "Well, I bought a plane, I got cars," and whatever. It's like, yeah, but you're still fucked up emotionally 'cause you haven't really spent time doing that and you haven't really seen your family and, you know, you worked all this, you worked this long for what? For things? For like, you know, a, a, the number in your bank account to be higher? You're like missing the point in my opinion. Like me, I, I-- like I said, I'm a very social dude. I like making new friends. I like learning new things. I like traveling and getting out in the world and putting myself in uncomfortable situations. That's the only way that I feel like I am growing, and I'm obsessed with that. I'm obsessed with growth and just learning about what, what the world has to offer. Like e- and everyone has something to offer. You know? Like I, I, and I w- I wish I could know it all. I wish I could to, to, to meet everybody and have a conversation with them and... You know, I'm the type of person that randomly, like I'll be in a deep conversation with just like a fucking stranger. Like 'cause I, I enjoy that. I like hearing... I always tell, I always tell Greg like one of my dream jobs is to be a bartender in like a slow pub. You know? So I could just like, you can get to know your regulars and like that just seems like a very like nice thing to, to... A- and, and not aesthetically. Like I really think that it's a nice thing to be able to sit down and talk to someone and it like feel that sense of community. Like that's the best, dude. Like that's the best. I saw a video recently on TikTok where this guy was like interviewing people and he found this old woman and she was talking about pubsAnd how they're like the greatest thing in the world. And she's like, "You just go to your local pub," and she's like, "I feel like people don't do this anymore." Like you go to your local pub and, you know, you talk to the people in there about like your problems and at your job or your relationship, and you talk to the bartender and they-- sometimes they give advice and it's bad advice or good advice, but that sense of community, it's like a place you can go. Like I'm obsessed with stuff like that.

    10. CWChris Williamson2:08:32

        Yeah.

    11. JSJoe Santagato2:08:32

        Like I love that. And I also love how there's different versions of that. You can never know everything. Everything changes, everyone's different, and everyone's right, I believe. Like everyone's right. If they believe they're right, then they are. Like I think that I'm right for me, but not for you, [chuckles] if that makes sense. And I think that's sort of fascinating to me. So I, I wanna get out there and I want to experience all that, and I wanna feel uncomfortable because that-- a-again, that, it, it j- I get so much from that. It feels very rewarding. And I did make the mistake when-- 'Cause I wasn't always like that. I, I grew up in a neighborhood, uh, Astoria, Queens, where if y- everything that you want is there, basically, at least it was for me. And I had a lot of friends in the neighborhood and, you know, whatever, and I would barely even go into Manhattan to like hang out or go to a bar. Like it's just like I'm just gonna stay here, whatever. But something in me shifted and I was like, "I wanna see more things." And once that started happening and I started traveling, I was like, like the first time that I, I took a flight from Paris to Mykonos and I was just looking out the window and it was like, "Oh my God." Like the world is like massive. As stupid as this sounds. By the way, this was like seven years ago. Um, but I was like, the world is massive and there's so much out there that like you can see pictures of, but it's like the pictures aren't gonna do it justice, dude. Like get out there and see it. Like the world is so cool and there's so many cool people. Like the idea, like a fantasy of just going to some random small town in Ireland and walking into a pub and making a friend is like the greatest thing in the world to me. And like just-- And like now you're so lucky because you live in a time where like you could keep in touch with that guy if you wanted to. You know what I mean? Like that's such a cool thing to me. It's like now you got a friend in fucking Ireland across the water. Like it's like, I don't know, things like that are fascinating. I actually think that is the point. Like that's the point. And the job is just so I can be able to do that. And I'm fortunate enough that right now I could do stuff like that, so I'm good. I just have to fulfill my personal like need to want to create and also make an impact. Like I, if I am given the privilege of being more successful than I am right now, I will give back more. Like that is something that I want to do and something that's always been in me of like giving back to people, making donations to charities and things like that. Like I wanna feel like I'm doing the right thing 'cause I don't need all of it. I don't need all the money and I don't need that sort of thing. Like I get a lot of joy out of helping people, and I get a lot of joy out of just like of other people being happy. I love that. Like I, I love being in a group of people and everyone's just super happy. But I did make the mistake at a time where I thought that everyone should want the things that I want, which is wrong. Not everyone needs to be like entrepreneurial and like chasing something and like follow your passion and do whatever. Like find a thing. Like your job isn't your passion, find something else and whatever. Not everyone is, is wired that way, which is the beauty of it too. That, that was like then you become this person who's like, "I, I wanna save everyone and I wanna..." And, and that's wrong, I think. And I've gotten to a point now where you, you know, like we were saying earlier, there are some people that are content, the fisherman, right? I've, I was the fucking dude at Harvard. Harvard was never in the cards for a guy like me, but I was that guy where I was like, "Here's what we could do," you know, whatever. And they're just like, "Bro, I don't wanna do that. You wanna do that." And it's like, "Oh, yeah." You know? Like you can't force that on people either. So to make it easier, a very simplified version is like make yourself happy. Don't do it in spite of anything, and you don't need everyone to do the thing that you're doing. Run your game. That's it. Run your race. And everyone else is running their race. But make sure that everyone around you is happy 'cause it, uh, like that's the, the really the only thing. Dude, if you're content with one fish a day, what the fuck am I gonna say? If I'm not content with one fish a day, that sucks for me. I gotta go out and fish more. But you're cool, bro, I'm kinda jealous of you then. You know? Like and just 'cause I have more money, it doesn't mean anything. At a certain point, if what I want out of life is to truly just, you know, be able to travel and, uh, see people and learn things and, and talk to people and have these types of conversations, and I'm doing it. I got on a plane to get here to have this conversation with you. I'm doing it. What am I gonna be upset about? This is the thing that I wanted for so long, and I'm doing it now. So like I'm playing with house money. So just realizing that also and not just getting on the hamster wheel for the sake of getting on it. It's like nothing's ever good enough or whatever. Dude, it's not-- Like free yourself up. If you're a looser, I think that things, it's easier to kinda get your job done also. If you're like real strict, like I gotta whatever, we were talking about before. It's like I need to be creative right now 'cause I need to make more money, and then I can do this, and then ex- then I'll be ha- It's like, bro, just, just, just find what you're doing and just like try to, you know... Whatever, I'm fucking talking in circles now. This fucking Neutonic is killing me.

    12. CWChris Williamson2:14:02

        [laughs]

    13. SPSpeaker2:14:03

        [laughs]

    14. CWChris Williamson2:14:03

        No, man, you're, uh, you're infectious. You're really infectious. I'm, I'm, I'm being serious. I'm being serious. I can see why you're successful. I can see why people follow you. I can see why however many tens of thousands of people sold out Madison Square Garden to come and see you as well. You know? Uh-That level of self-belief that doesn't feel tyrannical, doesn't feel like it's, uh, overbearing or domineering or, or selfish. Like, I have a good idea of what I like, and I like what I like, and I want to try and create a life that helps me to enjoy as much of that as possible is about as infectious of a philosophy as you can get. And I can totally see why you've been successful.

    15. JSJoe Santagato2:14:47

        Thank you, dude. And I, and I, I appreciate you saying that because sometimes-- and I realize the way that I'm talking about it now, it almost sounds like, like I'm a freight train, and it's like I have this thing in my head, and I have to do it my way, and everyone get out of my way. It's not like that. Like, I'm much softer than that. Like, that goes on in here.

    16. CWChris Williamson2:15:04

        Mm.

    17. JSJoe Santagato2:15:05

        And-- But mostly I'm scared. Like, mostly I'm, I'm scared and I'm, like, second-guessing myself, but I, like, am putting one foot in front of the other because I feel like I have to, because there's a voice in my head that... I mean, obviously I've, I've, I'm, like, anxious about things, and I'm, and I'm scared of certain things or whatever, but there's a voice in my head that's so intense and it's so loud that like, "Yo, fucking do it." Like, "Don't be a coward. Like, do it." And, like, it's so loud that I can't sort of ignore it. But that only exists in here. I'm not like a freight train. Like, I'm not like a, this, like, when we're on set or something, or when we're just talking about ideas, like, "No, no, no, we're gonna do it this..." Like, it's not like that. It's, it's more of like an internal-

    18. CWChris Williamson2:15:44

        Mm-hmm

    19. JSJoe Santagato2:15:45

        ... belief thing.

22. 2:15:46 – 2:30:03

    You Need to Just Do It

    1. CWChris Williamson2:15:46

       I had a conversation with a guy called David Deida. He wrote this super famous book in the '90s called "The Way of the Superior Man," and he's a coach, uh, philosopher, spiritual guide for men and, and guys especially that have lost their purpose a little bit and don't really know where they're going in life. And w- I did the first interview that he's done in a decade a couple of weeks ago, and when I was doing the research to look at him, I went back to the start of his career, and this guy has had the most fucking eclectic career that you have ever heard of. He did th- th- uh, g- quantum mechanics, then he did pure mathematics, then he worked on AI in the '80s, then he ran a yoga ashram retreat for forever, then he did this coaching thing, then he did a family thing, then he became an author, then he went back and did more AI stuff, and he founded compa- He just bounced all over the place. And I asked him while we were talking, "Dude, I, I can't really-

    2. JSJoe Santagato2:16:48

       What are you? [chuckles]

    3. CWChris Williamson2:16:49

       ... thread. I can't, I can't piece together, I can't weave the path of your life-

    4. JSJoe Santagato2:16:54

       Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson2:16:54

       ... in a, a straight line." And he said, "When I don't want to do something or when I'm called to change what I'm doing, being out of alignment with that voice is so painful to me, physically painful to me. It feels like someone's wrenching my insides. I don't have any choice." So what from the outside looks like self-belief and bravery and single-mindedness, from the inside is actually fear of pain.

    6. JSJoe Santagato2:17:26

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson2:17:27

       And the pain is me being out of alignment. And you sound like him.

    8. JSJoe Santagato2:17:32

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson2:17:32

       You sound like that guy. The, the voice in my head is so loud that I c- I can't not do it. I can't not do the thing because they're saying, "Don't be a coward. Go and do it. Go and chase your dreams."

    10. JSJoe Santagato2:17:43

        Yeah, and it's like, yo, if I, if I feel like I have... Like, one part of me feels like I have the potential, and I think that a lot of people see potential in themselves for certain things, like, yo, I could do that or I can do this or whatever, but they get discouraged along the way. I, I never get discouraged because I have that where it's like, "Just keep going." Like, "We-- Are you gonna stop?" Like, "You can't stop." You believe it.

    11. CWChris Williamson2:18:04

        Mm.

    12. JSJoe Santagato2:18:05

        Like, if you believe it, then it's like it's, uh, those things, like, meet and it's like, but you believe it. Like, if I believe it, I have to keep going then because I believe it. I can't-- Like, I have to be, I have to see it through, you know? Like, it's really tough for me to like... There are some things, because there was a point in my life where I was very experimental too. Like, I'll, I'll try a bunch of different things and, and just, just to sort of see. Like, creatively, I think that is helpful. Like, I, I, I don't really see a lot of merit in picking something and it's like, "Well, I have to do that now." Like, that's the thing that I... Like, I think there is merit in realizing a- along that journey where your strengths are, and it's okay to pivot. It's okay to pivot and, and do, you know, things that now make more sense that are resonating even harder, 'cause there's no way you have it figured out on day one. Like, no matter what, you could plan all you want and you can do whatever, but it's never gonna go the way that you think. So, I mean, that was, that's another thing too that, you know, me and Greg have had multiple discussions about where creatively people can get into a, a creative rut where they feel like, "I have to keep planning to perfect this." And I, and I don't think that's helpful, like, for anything. Like, I think that you can only learn by doing. Like, trial by fire. Like, just put yourself out there. Like, you can plan a little bit.

    13. CWChris Williamson2:19:38

        Give me an example.

    14. JSJoe Santagato2:19:42

        Uh, starting a podcast even. If you're starting a podcast and you're like, "I wanna start a podcast," you have a loose idea. You have something that you wanna do, cool, whatever. Like, dude, start. But you're gonna spend three months being like, "So here's the strategy," or, "I'm gonna have conversations with all these people and I'm really gonna dial it in," or whatever. You think you're not gonna pivot? You think you got it right right now? You haven't even started. Like, you don't have it right. You need to start now though because you're only gonna learn those things.

Episode duration: 2:43:37