Modern WisdomThe Biggest Myths About Fat Loss - The Fitness Chef | Modern Wisdom Podcast 309
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 28,204 words- 0:00 – 4:19
Calories and the real drivers of fat loss: deficit + sustainability
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
They tested a low carb group and a low fat group. They equated calories and protein in each group, so they're eating the same amount of calories, same amount of protein, and then they just wanted to see which group resulted in more fat loss, and they couldn't find any difference.
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Graham Tomlinson, welcome to the show.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Thanks for having me. How are you doing?
- CWChris Williamson
I'm well, man. I went to Leeds and back today, and this is how downregulated the stimulus of my life has become. I've spent so much time in the same four walls that a journey to Leeds and back actually felt like an adventure. I spent three and a half hours in the car and, and literally felt like I'd gone on holiday.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Well, talking of holidays, it doesn't look like that's going to happen anytime, anytime soon. Um, yeah, it's been a funny, funny year, hasn't it, with lockdown? And to be honest, I don't know about you, but it hasn't actually affected me that much because, like yourself, I'm kind of working from home anyway. And the only thing that's changed for me is not being able to go abroad or get on a plane to go to London or something like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
And obviously, obviously, not seeing family and friends is, um, not great. But yeah, in terms of work, everyday life, it's, it's not that much different.
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
And at the start, it was actually quite nice. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Dude-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
But it's a bit much now.
- CWChris Williamson
... I said, I said that every introvert, it's now their dream. You know, you don't have to go and do all of the social events that you never enjoyed, but I, I'm, u- perfectly fine working on my own, doing my solitary stuff, but after 12 months of being in exactly the same location, even I... Like, and if I'm starting to push it, then for the people that are listening who are really social and, and used to going out and spending tons of time with their friends and... It, it really is challenging. So yeah, man, I'm looking forward... Even if we can't go abroad, I'm just looking forward to, to Leeds, West Yorkshire, not somehow feeling like I should be grateful for it. I shouldn't be grateful for the fucking A1.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know what I mean? Like this isn't, this isn't-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... me taking a, taking a trip to somewhere exotic. But anyway, anyway, we-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... are going to talk about fat loss today. You are The Fitness Chef on Instagram. You are red pilling people on how to really understand calories from foods, what they think is happening, what's actually happening, and the truth behind weight loss. What are the most common errors that you see people making when they're trying to lose weight?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Um, I think one of them is, is not understanding what you, you were just saying there. Understanding that, A, you need a, a calorie deficit, so consume less calories than you use each day, um, to lose fat. That is the principle. That is not a method. That is literally the only physiological way you can lose fat. So unfortunately, unfortunately, it's not sexy enough to be marketed, so it kind of misses a lot of people. So a lot of people start trying to lose fat without even understanding that basic element that's required. Um, and so once you start from there and you start going on an, uh, an extreme intervention like low carb or keto or whatever it is, and you don't understand about calorie balance, you're almost setting yourself up for failure. Um, another one would be, even if you do understand that you need the calorie deficit, is making it unsustainable. In other words, having it ultra restrictive and aggressive. So for myself, I know my maintenance calories would be around about 2,200, 2,400, um, for my activity level. And, you know, for the average female, it could be, I don't know, 1,700 to 1,900. But when they go on these calorie counting apps like MyFitnessPal, it asks them, "How much weight do you want to lose?" Gives them an option and it'll be like, "One pound a week, two pounds, three pounds." Of course you're going to select the biggest amount of weight loss. Why wouldn't you? I would do that. Um, but unfortunately, what that does is, is that formulates a calorie target of something like 1,000 to 1,200 calories, which yes, it's a calorie deficit, but it's quite extreme and unsustainable. Um, you'll be very hungry and it'll be difficult to adhere to it. And the most important thing about fat loss isn't the calorie deficit, it's actually adhering to the calorie deficit over a period of time. So those are probably the two main things, um, that I would say that are very basic for people to understand.
- 4:19 – 6:49
How fast should you lose weight? Expectations vs scale noise
- CWChris Williamson
What's the maximum weight loss per week that you think people should comfortably aim for?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
To be honest-
- CWChris Williamson
They're not, they're not a pro bodybuilder. They haven't got some MMA fight coming up.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, that's a, a very interesting question because you could easily a- answer that and say it doesn't matter because it's just a number on the scale. Now, people do like to measure their weight loss progress by weighing themselves every week. And over a period of weeks and months, if you lose body weight, you will definitely be losing body fat, right? But if I was to weigh myself today and then next Tuesday, I could have lost weight, but it might not be body fat. I could have gained weight. It might not be body fat. Um, so from that perspective, I would just say if you do want to measure a number, I would say one pound a week, the minimum. You know, the minimum, and that's the most achievable thing that you can do. If you do that every week for a year, that's a lot of weight. (laughs) But unfortunately, people don't tend to think with that mindset. They're thinking, "Holiday in two weeks, have to lose it all by then," or, "Getting married in two months. I've n- I've done nothing about it, and now I'm gonna, you know, do a juice cleanse or something like that." So something crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
Even one pound a week is 3,500 cals, right? Which is a 500 calorie per day deficit, which is still quite a significant deficit to be in.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs) It's massive.
- CWChris Williamson
If you think that for a girl on an absolute top end, they would maybe get 2,000 calories, that's a quarter. You're talking about a quarter every single day, not including a refeed, not including a cheat day. And that's just to break one pound, half a kilo a week.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. And even if you had weeks where you didn't lose fat, you know, it, it can happen. Things come up, you know? Well, in a few months time, a few nights out, hopefully. Um, and so even if it was half a pound a week, that's still a lot of weight over a period of time.... and-- but we just don't think like that when we're starting out, a lot of people. Because the solutions that are in front of us are shiny and promise the outcome, you know, "You will look like this in a month or two weeks," that's what people are focusing on, um, unfortunately. And that's why they're kind of diving into these ultra-restrictive calorie deficits, um, which, to be honest, are fantastic for boxers (laughs) , um, you know, if they want to cut weight dramatically, um, but not for the average person who, you know ... and hopefully enjoys things like bread and donuts and lasagna, you know, things like that.
- 6:49 – 9:05
No ‘good’ vs ‘bad’ foods: energy vs nutrition and guilt-free flexibility
- CWChris Williamson
To the uninitiated that are listening, how is it that you can still get to eat bread and sugary foods and lasagna and still lose weight? Is there such a thing as a good food or a bad food?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
So, there can't be such a thing as a good food or a bad food. Food is simply different, um, again, that could just be my opinion. But objectively looking at, say, a chocolate bar or an avocado, if the quantities of both were 200 calories, we can see that the avocado has micronutrients, a little bit of fiber in there, beneficial fats, but still 200 calories. That's the energy value, and that's the thing that's related to the body fat, at the end of the day. The chocolate bar will have 200 calories and probably minimal nutrients. Um, certainly no fiber. So yeah, I mean, y- you can, you can weigh it up. And I think ... I always try and get people to understand the two different facets, so energy, the calories in food, and also the n- nutritional value and the fiber value, things that are going to benefit your overall health and influence your, your next decision. You know, if something satiates you and fills you up, it's more likely that you're ... or sorry, less likely that you're going to eat, uh, more calories than you should. So, I think, you know, this good and bad thing, I think it's a little bit pedantic of me to say, "Nothing can ever be good or bad." I think it's more a case of, there can be a, a good or a bad overall diet, AKA one that supports you or doesn't support you. But as an individual choice, like one meal out of a week is one meal out of 21 meals. You know, if that was something that was double the calories than you normally have, it's not going to make much difference, as long as all the other meals are kind of still supporting you. So yeah, I ... it's one of my kind of pet hates is when I say people saying, "I've been good," or, "I've been bad." Because what it does is, when, when people eat something like a pizza or a chocolate bar, they feel guilty. Um, of course, if they were doing that every day, potentially, it's not very ... it's not gonna be optimal for them. But if they're doing it in moderation and they understand more about the food they're eating, it's a lot easier for them to make informed decisions about what they're eating.
- 9:05 – 13:08
Why fad diets keep winning: marketing, repackaging, and insulin misconceptions
- CWChris Williamson
So, getting on to some of the biggest myths of fat loss, there's been ... If, if this is the case, 'cause I remember when If It Fit Your Macros came out, -ish, came out, came out publicly, um-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
The launch of If It Fits Your Macros (laughs) ?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, and that was what, maybe like 2011, 2012-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I'd say? Kind of the back end of the Zyzz era, that sort of timing. If It Fit Your Macros came out, everyone had been into carb backloading for a long time, then Carbonite came out, and then it was just, "It's any calories, bro." So, if it's been-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... "It's any calories, bro," for the best part of a decade now, nearly, nearly ten years of the If It Fits Your Macros world, why have we seen stuff like keto and intermittent fasting and slimming clubs and all this sort of stuff? Before we get into trashing them, which is going to be great, why ... h- how have they come up? Is it just repackaging things in a sexier way that's easier to market?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, I mean, I think the, the keto diet came around initially to treat epileptic kids, you know, nothing to do with body composition. Um, and low-carb diets could be seen to be advantageous for treating people with type 2 diabetes. But these things always tend to morph into fat loss, because everybody wants to lose fat, because we're a, a nation and, to be honest, the whole planet is quite obese now. Um, it's naturally going to move into that, because that's what people are seeking, I guess. You know, that's my kind of ... that's how I kind of think it's, it's happening. Um, yeah, I think like the, "It's all calories, bro," is, is an interesting one, because obviously, you've got the three different macronutrients. You've got the protein, which is, is just great for any fitness goal that you have. It's going to help you build muscle. It's, it's probably going to help you lose fat as well, because you burn more calories when you digest that compared to carbs and fats. So, over time, that's actually going to help you lose weight, because your energy expenditure is higher. Um, but I guess, like the local carb, for me, it probably st- kicked off when ... Well, in my opinion, everything started when I started going on social media. But it c- it could have been before that in blogs. But yeah, you have low-carb and keto zealots that use the, the kind of insulin hypothesis to get past their argument or to support their argument instead of-
- CWChris Williamson
What is that? What's the, what's the insulin hypothesis?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Well, it's the idea that hor- that hormones will dictate fat loss instead of energy balance. Um, so the more the insulin rises, the more fat, because it's the fat loss storage hormone. Sorry, the fat storage h- hormone, um, it's basically going to result in more fat loss. And they just ignore the fact that, despite the fact that that's true, insulin is there, it does occur, it's definitely a massive part of the process, th- the, the end result is defined by total energy in versus total energy out. That's what dictates it. Um, so yeah, it's kind of like cherry-picking a segment of the process between-... somebody eating calories, and it being metabolized and turned into fat tissue. They're check- they're, they're checking that one part of the pro- process and just using that. Um, and that's where you get the low carb thing from, that's where you get anti-sugar from. You know, the sugar one's a little bit more vicious-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... in the sense that people claim that it is, you know, poisonous or turn straight to fat. All these kind of ludicrous claims that are just not supported anywhere in evidence. Um, and then you get the other side of it, whereby if somebody enjoys low carb diets, they can do without things like pasta, bread, um, you know, any type of high sugar food, and it helps them achieve their goals, fantastic. But the problem comes when people are trying to lose weight and they enjoy those foods and they feel they have to cut them out, and it's just unnecessary. There's-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 13:08 – 15:46
Carbs vs fat loss: what research actually shows (and why zealots reject it)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... there's no kind of evidence there. In fact, all the evidence goes against what some of these hypotheses are saying. You can look at things like the rice reduction diet experiment where participants ate 95% of their calorie intake from rice, fruit, and fruit juice.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Pretty much all carbohydrates, um, in there, and they were in a, an aggressive calorie deficit. You know, you certainly wouldn't, uh, administer the calorie deficit that they were on, but guess what? They lost an average of, like, 63.9 kilos across participants-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... because they were in a calorie deficit. Um, and that was just eating purely carbs. And then we have another meta-analysis from two or three years ago where they tested two different groups, a low carb group and a low fat group. Um, they equated calories and protein in each group, so they're eating the same amount of calories, same amount of protein, and then they just wanted to see which group resulted in more fat loss, and they couldn't find any difference. In fact, I think they found an, an insignificant difference between low fat resulting in more fat loss than the low carb diet group, and that was a meta-analysis of lots of different studies out there. So there's, there's two examples of quite reliable research to just... I mean, if you say that to somebody who is, like, an anti-carb zealot, they, they can't say anything to that. It's like, "Well, how can you argu- how did that happen then, if what you're arguing is true?" Um, so yeah. (laughs) And then you've got-
- CWChris Williamson
But what do they say to that? What's the answer to that?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Uh, well, to be honest, the conversations (laughs) that I have with low carb zealots are normally in my Instagram comment section. And they will come out with all these claims, and I will probably come back with, "Well, can you cite some evidence?" And they'll probably come back with some sort of study that's been done, because people talk about showing evidence, but actually, there's a lot of bad evidence out there (laughs) as well. Like, anybody could do a study and publish it. That's why you kind of want to look for systematic reviews or reviews or e- meta-analysis, because it's like all the studies done on any given question, such as do carbs make you fat. You're, you're more likely to get a more reliable answer if you look at that kind of data, as opposed to just one individual study that was done in 1993 which supports your bias. And there you go, that supports it. But I'm saying, "Well, hang on, yeah, but what about, what about this? You know, I, I see what you're saying there with that evidence, but can you not appreciate what I'm showing here?" "Nope." (laughs) Um, and then-
- 15:46 – 20:56
Diet tribalism and identity: why nutrition debates get so personal
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think it is, why do you think it is that people are so patriotic about the dietary team that they're on?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
It's crazy. It's definitely getting worse, I think, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that right? 'Cause I, I don't-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... I think-
- CWChris Williamson
... I, I only see these discussions when I observe you or James Smith or Dhiren or any other of the vanguard of, like-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... British argumentative blokes on the internet-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... killing, killing the dreams of some marketer out there. Um-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I, I only ever observe it happen, right? So I only get to see a tiny little sliver. But you reckon it's getting worse?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. I, I just think people's ability to even debate ... You know, I'd quite happily ... if somebody wrote a comment saying, "Yeah, but I don't agree with that, respectfully, because look at this and this and this," I would be more than happy to admit that I was wrong if I had kind of jumped the gun on something or not appreciated the other side of someone's argument. Um, in fact, I've maybe done that in the past. Um, but it just, um, it's more the argumentative kind of nature of people's comments. It's more like they're just angry and they want to project that instead of them actually wanting a discussion that's going to help either one of us. Um, so yeah, it's very difficult to communicate with people like that. But it is tribal. I think it possibly started with, with veganism, you know, because y- my sister's a vegan and, you know, she's nice person. (laughs) But you, (laughs) but you will get people out there who are just wanting to project, almost i- an authoritarian manner, how everybody should be doing things, and they just can't take it when someone else wants to do something different, because they're entitled to. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that not the same way as it is with everything at the moment though? So think about-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. It's-
- CWChris Williamson
... the patriotism that you see between people's political parties at the moment or towards a social cause or towards a particular type of injustice or whatever it is. I think, uh, this is a rabbit hole we don't need to go down, but the collapse of grand narratives, the lack of a religion to hang on to, the fact that you don't have any greater sense of purpose, it's a meritocracy, you are your job, you are your possessions, you are your follower count. People are looking for their new gods, and they appear to be finding them inside of a diet book at the moment.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Or a social media account or a plethora of s- a small kind of niche of social media accounts. That's a great point. You know, as, um, you know, our kind of age group, I certainly...... a lot of my mates aren't religious, and probably my parents aren't religious either. So it probably stretches to people who are kind of in their 50s or 60s as well. So yeah, it's, it could be that as human beings, we're always craving something to follow, something to believe in. That's why, like, I support Liverpool at football, stupidly sometimes. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Um, (laughs) this season anyway. It's like, why did I pick them and why do I get so worked up when I watch them on TV? It's, you know, looking at it objectively, it's just a football match, you know. If they win or lose, it has no impact on my life at all. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And yet it does, emotionally, massively.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Oh yeah, it does, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
We're all guilty of it.
- CWChris Williamson
I had, um, I had a sociologist on the show a couple of months ago, a guy called Rob Henderson, who's a good buddy, and he told me that up until 2012, supporters of the Democratic Party in America loved their party more than they disliked the other one. And that was the same for Republicans as well. But after 2012, people that voted Democrat, voted Democrat because they hated the other party more than they liked their own. We're literally ... the, the compulsion that we have now is an in-group, out-group relationship, where all that we're bothered about is not being the out group, as opposed to actually being the in-group. And I think what you see here is we just want to feel like we're a part of a team, a part of a crowd. Like if you're some 39-year-old triathlete, club level triathlete, who is adamant that low carb is the way to go, and all of your waking hours are spent researching the different type of bike clip mechanism that you're going to use, and the new type of shoes, and you're waiting for race weekend to come around, that's your world. And if you are just as patriotic about that, it feels when someone says, "Yeah, b- mate, but it's only calories, bro. Like, low, low carb is for people with epilepsy and type two diabetes. It doesn't matter." That doesn't just feel like a critique of the food that you're putting in your mouth. It feels like an existential threat against your ego. Feels like someone's trying to destroy your identity.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
It's an attack, isn't it? And before actually sitting back and thinking a- about, you know, assessing what information that they're seeing, it's an immediate impulse reaction, isn't it, to go and comment and say, "You're wrong." You know, and it's, um ... I think we all do it but s- to some degree, but I certainly notice it, uh, on social media with when it comes to nutrition. I've, I've had posts, you know, things like avocado toast versus Nutella toast, just displaying the simple facts. There you go. You do what you like.
- 20:56 – 22:32
Artificial sweeteners and ‘poison’ claims: what the evidence suggests
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Um, you can have either. You know, displaying the facts about diet s- um, soft drinks, you know, that they don't cause cancer despite all these conspiracies, and they don't make you fat 'cause they've got zero calories. They don't raise insulin 'cause they've got zero calories. But people are just like, "Yeah, but it's poison, bro." (laughs) And it's just like, well, what can you say to that? Y- you know, if it was poison, people would be dying. Poison's in a dose.
- CWChris Williamson
Has there been ... Have there been any studies that have shown links with artificial sweeteners?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
In, in rats, um, a- a- a while ago, but in human beings, there's, there's none. I mean, that's to my knowledge. Uh, you know, I think the most recent meta-analysis was done in 2015, um, and it had over half a million participants there, and it showed no carcinogenic properties within diet soft drinks. Specifically, it was aspartame. So there are other sweeteners, but aspartame is the one that gets labeled as ...
- CWChris Williamson
One of the most researched-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... food supplements in the world, right?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
I- it is, and it's, it's one of those things that people will say, "I can't believe you're promoting this." I'm like, "I'm not." Uh, it's like, "I can't believe you're saying it's healthy." I'm not. There's nothing o- optimal about aspartame. But what I'm saying is, the research shows it's actually not harmful if consumed in this dose. If you consumed 100 cans a day, that's a different story. (laughs) Um, but if you're doing that, there's problems there that you probably need to get help with.
- CWChris Williamson
There are other, there are other issues-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... bigger than the aspartame, yes. Right.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
I would imagine you would have other issues overriding the problem with aspartame if you're doing that per day, um, just h- having all that bloating, for example. (laughs)
- 22:32 – 27:08
Intermittent fasting: meal-skipping as a tool (not a metabolic hack)
- CWChris Williamson
Purely, purely the recycling issue I think would be, would be a big one. Okay, so that's, that's low carb. What about intermittent fasting?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. So intermittent fasting can be a short one. It's, it's, uh, it's one that's gained momentum probably in the last sort of five or six years, and, um, basically all it is, is skipping a meal. Unless you are crazy and want to start doing your intermittent fasting at a different time, most people would start eating at 12 o'clock and then finish eating at 8:00 PM or something like that, so that they can combine sleep with, with some of the fasting period. But I mean, we're all intermittent fasting as long as we sleep. You know, if we're not eating when we're sleeping, we're all doing it anyway. So what's going on is they are skipping probably four hours, AKA breakfast, and putting off until lunchtime. Um, there is no, again, no research benefits that that is better for fat loss than just having a calorie deficit. And regardless of doing intermittent fasting or not, you must be in a calorie deficit to lose fat. So you can have a situation where someone skips breakfast, doesn't track the calories or isn't aware of it, and consumes in a surplus from 12 o'clock to 8 o'clock. But they're still doing intermittent fasting, they think it's gonna result in fat loss. No, you still need a calorie deficit. So if you like doing that, um, I definitely recommend it. If you're somebody who doesn't like breakfast or never eats breakfast, it could be a really useful way to reduce calorie intake. But if you're someone who likes breakfast, then it's, it's unnecessary. You know, some people might feel dizzy by 10 o'clock if they haven't eaten. It just depends. So yeah, that's it. Um, there's also other purported health benefits like autophagy, so like cleaning out of organs, basically, thi- this kind of stuff.And again, is there going to be that much more of that going on? So that's something that occurs when you don't eat for a while.
- CWChris Williamson
How long is the while?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Is it going to be ... Uh, well, it will hap- I dunno, a few hours.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Um, I haven't actually looked in detail at the research, but if there was four, three or four hours that you extended that by, is that going to make that much of a difference to your overall health? If there was that benefit, because you're going to be fasting between say, I dunno, 10:00 PM, 11:00 PM and 7:00 AM when you're sleeping. Um, is there going to be that much more of a benefit, if there are benefits in the first place that get purported by delaying that by three hours or four hours? I'm not sure. I guess there needs to be more research into that, but a lot of people claim that as one of the benefits of it.
- CWChris Williamson
I would say from my experience with intermittent fasting, that a restricted time eating window is a good rough tool to assist with generally not eating as much food. Now if you do-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you do a 18:6 fast, which is a little bit more uncomfortable, maybe eating between 2:00 PM and 8:00 PM, it's pretty hard actually to overeat in a six-hour window. You need to be able to put away-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... especially if you're still eating relatively whole foods that aren't hyper calorie dense. To fit, what, like two to three big meals in within the space of six hours is a fairly difficult task. So s- so long as you-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
I always find that tough.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, as long as you can get through that period. Um, another thing as well to kind of fly the flag for intermittent fasting, I have found sometimes when I've done intermittent fasting that my energy levels are more stable throughout the morning. That a lot of the time my morning meal can cause me to feel a bit of a slump, uh, sort of mid-morning to afternoon. And then without that, without that spike in insulin and glucose, I don't have that sort of, oh my god, I need a coffee to stay awake sensation.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, if, if that works for you, carry on doing it. And you made a great point about inadvertently, if you have to cram in three meals to six or seven hours, there's a good chance that you will probably select foods that are going to fill you up because you know that afterwards you are not going to eat for a while. Um, you know, and you could be then inadvertently focusing on or becoming educated on knowing, okay, let's have a high protein diet then because that fills you up. Let's make sure that I'm focusing on whole foods, which has always got to be the basis for any kind of optimal diet. Let's increase fiber intake so that I'm kind of satiated and I'm not, you know, having midnight snacks, which, uh, I've been doing during lockdown, to be honest. (laughs)
- 27:08 – 28:25
Meal timing myths: late-night carbs, meal frequency, and binge risk
- CWChris Williamson
Is there any evidence about timing of food intake? If I eat at, carbs at 10:00 PM at night, am I going to be more likely to store them as fat because I'm being sedentary while it's in my stomach?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
No, um, there, there's no evidence out there that suggests that the, the time that you eat makes any difference to the amount of fat that you're going to store. So I think it's just over a 24-hour period, the total calories in versus the energy expenditure. Um, so yes, you, you, you know, in that basic term, that is it. But obviously other things are going to influence that. So if you starve yourself for seven, eight hours, there's a good chance that you could overeat or binge. You know, I've done it before, gone on Deliveroo when I'm absolutely starving and ordered like two mains, a, a starter, a dessert (laughs) , and before you know it's like 5,000 calories. Um, so yeah, there could be behavioral aspects that you could look at there, but in terms of just looking at the energy in versus energy out, doesn't matter.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Do what you like. And it's the same with the amount of meals. A lot of people were saying six small meals is better for your metabolism than, you know, two massive meals of the same calorie value. Again, it doesn't matter. Just do what suits you. Um, if you're somebody who likes-
- 28:25 – 35:57
Protein fundamentals: targets, satiety, and the ‘30g absorption’ debate
- CWChris Williamson
What about protein intake?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. Pro- protein intake, um, I'd always recommend at least one gram per kilo of body weight. Um, and I guess if you are training quite a lot, we could, you could go up to two and beyond. Um, I think that's something that a lot of people miss and a lot of people... Because it's so, because you require for muscle building and for fat loss, it's going to be beneficial because it's got a higher thermic effect and because behaviorally it's going to help fill you up. And people often miss that out and maybe just concentrate on the calories and maybe aren't aware of, of the amount of protein that they are eating and it's actually quite low. And over time it could possibly contribute to them overeating more calories because they're not feeling full, for example. So yeah. Um, there's also some other crazy myths that, you know, we've seen that prot- people were kind of saying proteins is bad for you as smoking and it wrecks your kidneys. It's just, again, it's just complete nonsense and something that The Daily Mail would just, uh, reel out every now and again. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
The internet, the internet attracts some interesting people.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What about the fact that I think I've seen you, I've definitely seen James post this, and you may have done as well, that during one sitting there's an upper bound ceiling on how much protein your body can absorb.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, it's, there's some, there's various research out there, but 30 grams seems to be the optimal kind of dose, um, for, for most people. And I guess the average person or the average male should be consuming, I don't know, 1000, 2,500, maybe 3000 calories a day, and female from like 1700 to 2200. So it's going to be roughly ballpark for most people. Um, yeah, I, to be honest, it's something that's still being researched quite a lot, but from the evidence that I've seen, it's definitely a better idea to-... aim for kind of 20 to, to 40 gram servings of protein rather than, for example, at the end of the day, realizing that you haven't eaten much protein and you try and whack in, like, 100 grams or something-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... um, in one meal.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what I'm thinking about the, related to-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... having an intermittent fasting window. That inevitably if you've got an upper bound of about 30 grams that you can absorb optimally within one sitting, how long is the reset window between that? Do you know?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Uh, no. I think it would be... No, that's something I'd probably have to have a look at actually. Um, whether it's relevant for somebody who's trying to lose weight, I'm not sure. But for somebody who's trying to build muscle, that's definitely something that they should kind of think about. Um, but I guess some of the research that I've seen, I don't know if you've seen some of Alan Aragon's stuff, he's sort of talking about every possibly three to four hours having more protein. Um, I think that's certainly in research showing to be be- beneficial for muscle gain. For fat loss, I'm not sure that it really matters-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. That's interesting.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... um, how regularly you have it. Um, just because for muscle gain, you are... I mean, intermittent fasting for muscle gain might not be the best idea because you are depleting yourself for a long period of time. And of course, yes, you can be losing fat during that time for, for as energy, but also muscle. You know, muscle's probably the first thing that's going to be burned before fat there. Um, so yeah. That's, it's interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it is. I was definitely thinking that. I remember seeing Dan Bilzerian talk about his approach to diet, and his approach to diet is to just have 25 grams of protein every two hours that he's awake. That's, that's all that he does. So he'll have a protein bar, then he'll have a shake, then he'll have a little food. I mean, w- when you're constantly surrounded-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... by w- when you live in the Maldives or wherever it is, he can just get tapas presumably on, like he just clicks-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... he clicks his fingers and some-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
On tap, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... some, some handsome Spanish waiter comes over with, with a pinion and, like, delivers him some, some nice sort of seafood paella or something like that. But yeah, and that, that really stuck with me because it made think, okay, if there's an upper bound on how much protein you can absorb, if we're focusing on muscle gain, upper bound on how much protein that you can absorb within a particular window, let's say that it's a couple of hours, and you need to be hitting maybe 160 to 180 to maybe even 200 grams of protein per day if you're a all right size guy who's been training for a little while with a bit of mass on and you're going for that two to sort of two and a half grams per kilo of body weight, you're, e- you have to eat more-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
You have to, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... consistently or else you're getting to the point where, right, here's 300 grams of chicken breasts that I'm just gonna have in one meal. And that's going to be, what, 75 grams-ish of protein, between 60 and 75 grams of protein you're gonna get out of 300 grams of chicken breast? But based-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Maybe more. Yeah, maybe more.
- CWChris Williamson
... based on what we just said there-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Maybe more. And, and-
- CWChris Williamson
... that's not even gonna be absorbed.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, it does need to be little and often for those people perhaps.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Absolutely. And also, you, I guess for somebody who's training quite regularly, maybe training twice a day, h- having the fuel to fuel that workout makes sense. You can have protein before that in a balanced meal s- you know, within an hour to two hours afterwards to start recovery, and then later in the day maybe having an evening meal. So, that's things that are kind of r- meals that are required for the training to optimize the training anyway. So, I guess i- for a lot of people, it would already be in place. Um, but certainly for muscle gain, it's something that people probably... Yeah, it can probably get a bit much. It's like, "Oh my god, another meal." You know? (laughs) You, you, you know, you're probably full and it's eight o'clock at night, and you know, you're trying to, you're trying to get that surplus up there, you're trying to get the protein up there and you realize that you still have another 30 grams of protein to hit. You know, I guess you could have something like a protein shake. But yeah, it's, it's tough. It's a lot more intricate gaining muscle than it is losing fat.
- 35:57 – 41:31
Slimming clubs (WeightWatchers/Slimming World): points, ‘free foods,’ and incentives
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, what about slimming clubs?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. So, they've been around for a long time. Um, certainly, you know, am I allowed to say them on here? It's fine. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah, fire away, man. Fire away.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I've got a lawyer now. I've got a lawyer, everybody, so-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... if this happens, it's James Smith's lawyer. I've got r- I've got referred to James Smith's lawyer. So-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. He had a, he had a legal a case a while ago. I don't know what it was-
- CWChris Williamson
If she can handle, if, if-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... but that's ... obviously got him out of it.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, if this lady can handle the shit that James Smith throws at her-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs) Good point.
- CWChris Williamson
... she can deal with you naming-... whoever it is.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. So, so WeightWatchers and Slimming World are the big two. Um, probably, you know, I think they're quite big in America as well, but obviously huge here in the UK. They've been going for a while. When I was doing one-to-one personal training, a lot of the clients that I was getting were kind of ex-Slimming World people who had kind of had enough of, of just turning up and getting weighed every week and going home and trying to eat syns and free foods and all this stuff, turning up the week after, finding out that they've lost weight, don't know why, the next week, gained weight. And it's all based on that. So it's like, it's like a win or lose arena. And every time they were kind of turning up, you know, there were stories of, of people, you know, not eating all day because they wanted to lose weight or, you know, turning up in swimwear so that the weight of the clothes weren't gonna show on the scales, all this kind of crap. (laughs) Um, and I think, yeah, the, the main problem is just that a lot of people will say this in the industry, they are just withholding the principle from their con- from, from their members. So that is the calorie deficit. Nowhere on their websites, or to my knowledge at their meetings or weigh-ins do they communicate this. It's all about telling people to eat a certain amount of syns, or you can eat unlimited salmon, pasta, eggs, which are fairly calorie dense foods-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... but you can eat unlimited quantities of them. And the argument that I always get from Slimming World zealots on my posts is, "Yeah, but nobody does that." I'm like, "I'm sure, I'm sure nobody does that. However, this is what they're saying on their website. You can eat unlimited quantities of this stuff, which can easily result in you being in a calorie surplus and probably gain too."
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, if you gave me unlimited access to pasta, I could, I could put myself in a calorie surplus easily.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Me too. I mean, I am very much the mind- I- I'm very much half a pasta packet per meal, which is probably like 150 grams uncooked, maybe more. (laughs) Um, so yeah, you can imagine someone who's, who's calorie deficit target may be something like 2,000 calories. All of a sudden, one meal, they're having 950 calories or something without knowing it. But it's fine 'cause it's free. It's just this kind of thing, there's just lack of information there. Um, and it's kind of the same with WeightWatchers. They use the point system. It's maybe slightly more aligned to calories. I think the points are added up depending on the calories in food, but it's like, why not just tell people-
- CWChris Williamson
Do the fucking calories?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. I mean, th-
- CWChris Williamson
This is a mad thing. Like, I don't know why they have to take what is an already very well established existing system of measuring and then repurpose it...
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... into a thing that isn't.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
It's, it's because, you know, their marketing team must be fantastic, you know. People, people there who are saying, "Right, we know that it's a calorie deficit, but we can call it something else because we know that people think, god, counting calories, how tedious and boring," which probably is, you know. "But let's dress it up as this and call this a syn and a speed food and a free food." All of a sudden, it sounds more sexy. Um, and all of a sudden, the measurement mechanism is just so basic people can understand that they turn up, if they've lost weight, success, if they've gained weight, no, you're failing. But as we know, you know, your body weight is not, uh, not reflective of your body fat, you know. You, you could turn up one week and have eaten loads of salty foods the night before to retain more water, and that's the extra weight. You might have actually lost body fat but gained weight from one week to the other. So that's why the scales over those short periods of times aren't overly useful. Um, and that's w- yeah, that's basically it. I think it's just, yeah, it's, it's, it's taking people further away from the very basic principle that they need to know, um, for no reason other than profits, you know. And I guess, yeah, we're all businesses, we want to make money at the end of the day, but I can't help but feeling that both of those organizations, their success as a business depends on their members' failure because that means that they're gonna keep coming back. Um, other th-
- CWChris Williamson
It's a physio that never wants his athletes to get well.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. We, we see that with chiropractors a lot. And, and to be honest, there's probably some great chiropractors (laughs) and, but it's like, "Yeah, come here every two, three weeks." It's like, "Well, hang on a minute. It's not actually the, the bones that are the problem here, it's the muscles that keep pulling the bones out of place. So as soon as I leave here, I'm gonna be out of joint, out of joint again in like, I don't know, a day? So it's probably that that I need to kind of take care of, flexibility. A little bit of strength training here or there is gonna solve my problems long term rather than paying 80 quid every three weeks coming for you to do the same thing." Um, that's not to say it's not necessary. It absolutely is (laughs) in, in a lot of cases. Um, but that's the kind of, yeah, similar to Slimming World in that regard.
- 41:31 – 44:01
What actually helps in a deficit: protein, fiber, and the thermic effect
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a way that I can prioritize fat loss through foods when in a calorie deficit?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, there is. So there's no particular foods that will help fat loss, and there's no particular foods that will make you gain weight more than others. It's all about the overall energy in and out. However, that said, we touched upon it before, pro- um, foods high in protein. So because protein has a higher thermic effect, you're talking about every time you have protein, about 30% of those calories that derive from protein from that food are burned during digestion. So that's an increase in your energy expenditure, but the net calories is, yeah, 30% less than the total calories that you're actually consuming. For carbs, it's around about 10%, and for fat, it's 0 to 3% is what the data says, which is all the more interesting that keto zealots tell you to eat loads of fat, um, when what they're basically saying is, what they think...... is happening is the more fat that you eat, the more fat you'll burn. So they're making that seem more body fat you'll burn, but it's actually just the dietary fat that you're consuming in wheelbarrows (laughs) that you're burning because you've got zero carbs in your system, the carbs are being used as fuel. It's so annoying because people believe that stuff. Um, anyway, off topic. Um, other foods, like we were saying there, whole foods, you know, foods high in fiber, again, is going to help, uh, make you feel full, just like protein. And the more that you're, you feel full, the more, or the less likely you are to, to overeat. Um, so from that point of view, you, you want to look at it from the overall diet still. Um, and if you know that, for example, you're eating three meals, each of them have 30 to 40 grams of protein, then you can look at it, and if you know you're eating a bunch of micronutrients makes, you know, it's going to improve your overall health, bunch of fiber, it's gonna, you know, improve your digestion, you're taking care of the, the overall picture. You know that one donut which is 200 calories, as long as it fits your overall calorie target over a week, you know, you can be flexible, that's going to do nothing bad for your goal or your overall health. Um, so yeah, the two things to focus on would be protein and fiber, sort of upping them just so that you feel fuller.
- 44:01 – 47:52
Crash dieting, weekly calorie budgets, and why detox/juicing is mostly marketing
- CWChris Williamson
Awesome. What about low calorie diets?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. Uh, it depends how low. So I guess to lose fat, you always need to be lower calories than you're currently consuming, unless you're, you know, exponentially increasing your energy expenditure to create a deficit. Um, I don't know how low you mean. Do you mean, like, 400 calories a day? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's, we see these, right?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
We see these diets on the internet of girls who are prepping for bodybuilding shows-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and have been told by their coach to drive themselves into the ground, 900 calories or 1000 calories, they're doing morning cardio, they're doing afternoon weights.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
So yeah, I mean, for, for that level of competition, you know, I personally would never want to be involved in that. Um, but perhaps it's required. But for the average person, that is going to be so miserable. Um, and you know, what happens when you're miserable? You don't want to keep doing whatever it is you're doing, um, and the chances are your behaviors will go back to what you were doing before that was creating the problem. So what I always say to people is instead of having a calorie target per day, have it per week. So say it was 2000 calories, over seven days that would be 14,000. And that allows someone the flexibility to know that they can go out and go over by 700 calories and the next day it's fine. You know, just reduce the next few days by a hundred calories each or something like that, um, just to be more flexible. But yeah, in terms of low calorie diets, if somebody really enjoys eating 500 calories a day and they do that for a significant period of time, they will lose a lot of body fat and it will be quicker than if they just had a gradual, say, 20%, 15% calorie deficit, which is going to be slower, but in the long run, more likely to be successful. So there's two options there.
- CWChris Williamson
What does the evidence say about juicing and detox?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Well, to be honest, there's none. So it, well, there's not much out there. So the claim is that if you go on a juice cleanse or a detox, you are presumably detoxing your organs. I mean, a lot of the, the businesses that promote these things don't actually know what they're, what they're saying. It's just like a bunch of words saying, "You're gonna cleanse your organs, lose weight," just all the buzzwords really. But logic would tell you that unless you don't have organs like kidneys and lungs and liver and skin, unless you don't have those, y- you know, you will be detoxing naturally anyway. That's what they do. So there's no need, you cannot detox. And then things like, uh, we've seen crazy things like coffee enemas. Um, well, I haven't seen them, thank God, but I've heard of them. (laughs) Um, Jesus. Yeah, that would be... Uh, I'd just quit. I'd just move to a remote island, just spend the rest of my days looking at the, the waves, I think if I saw that. But yeah, you got all, all kind of these things, um, some of them promoted by medical practitioners as well, which is hard because they're supposed to be trustworthy sources of information and advice. Um, yeah, and you're saying there, like a juice diet, some people do that for fat loss because it's ultra-low calorie. Um, so if they did it, I mean, what's the most popular one? Lose seven pounds in seven days. So a lot of people do it for seven days, lose the weight, and then just go back to their old habits. So in a couple weeks' time, they're back to square one, you know, completely pointless. They've just shelled out 300 quid for a juicer, 200 quid on ingredients, felt like crap, shitting themselves (laughs) at work, you know, all this kind of stuff's just completely ridiculous. Um, yeah, but that's kind of where we are.
- CWChris Williamson
And then-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
That's, that's the p- the power of marketing
- 47:52 – 52:18
Influencer products (Boombod) and integrity: how call-outs changed fitness marketing
- CWChris Williamson
Boom Bod is the desiccated power- powder version of a juice cleanse, right?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. The... So the, the Boom Bod bases its claim on glucomannan, however you pronounce that word, um, which is basically something that suppresses appetite, and there is some evidence to support that. But is that something that we really want to be promoting to essentially young women, maybe teenage, uh, women? Um, because a lot of the influencers that were... I mean, it's not happening so much now because fortunately so many of us have called it out. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, that was like...
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You remember, you know the final scene-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
A couple years ago.
- CWChris Williamson
You know the final scene in Avengers where the-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the entire... You got the Wakanda people, you got those big slugs floating through the air, Spider-Man's back, like Thor's just come, Iron Man's leading the way. Like that was what it was like. It was all hands on deck. The-... Lord of the- Lord of the Rings, that, the Battle of the Two Towers. It was precisely-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, epic. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... precisely, it was. Um, but God, what a s-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
But you know what? I- I think-
- CWChris Williamson
... what a sight to behold.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... I think it was because the marketers are obviously just thinking about who's the target market, who's gonna fall for this.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
And it, it'd be impressionable young people, you know. Remember when you were a teenager? I'm the same. I would've done anything. Um, and unfortunately, they're, they were targeting, you know, these kind of reality TV celebrities, you know, really strong followings, really popular, and there we go. Um, and that's what was happening. But I don't think they appreciated the evidence-based community within the industry and how it was just gonna immediately go for that. And not just evidence, just-
- CWChris Williamson
Eviscerate them.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, just peop- you know, people who just know when something's wrong-
- CWChris Williamson
Playing common fucking sense.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... regardless.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and to be honest, the influencers who were promoting it, part of me feels sorry for them because they probably just didn't appreciate that either, probably not educated in basic nutrition. And they're just seeing it as-
- CWChris Williamson
They were caught in the crossfire.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... a means to get money. Yeah. So I kind of do sympathize with them a little bit, but at the same time, you need to kind of research what you're promoting at the same time, you know? There's not really m- many excuses.
- CWChris Williamson
I've said it on the show, man. We, we have a lot of sponsors on here, and I don't promote anything if I haven't used it. Athletic Greens reached out to me. I used the product for all of 2021 up until March before I agreed to do anything with them, 'cause I was like, "I wanna see what this product's like." It's not enough that Tim Ferriss thinks it's good. I wanna actually see if I rate it. And this is the one part that I, I think is one of the best externalities of there being almost like a call-out culture for bullshit now with regards to fitness-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and diet on Instagram, is that the amount of reputational damage that you can have, that you can give to someone who continually compromises on truth to get an influencer check, if there is that person... So, a good example of the reversal of this is someone like, uh, Holly Hagan, um-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yes, yeah. I've seen her.
- CWChris Williamson
So, she appears to have almost been a convert now, and she's part of the evidenced-based community-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Mm-hmm.
- 52:18 – 1:04:30
Practical tools: smarter recipes, worthwhile supplements, and dieting ‘hacks’
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, and, and the thing about it is, most of the time, that's all people need. It's, it just doesn't sound... You can't, like, it's hard to do some sort of, like, digital ads with that, or, like, a billboard. It's just, like, common sense or these, these kind of things. People just kind of, the way things are now with advertising, you know, things have to be extreme to get noticed. The thing with, with my second, the, the second book, Still Tasty, is all I did was think, "Well, what am I going to do for another book?" And it was lockdown. And my followers, what I did was put a poll saying, "What's your favorite recipes?" You know, and a lot of people came back with burgers, pizzas, and toasties, and cheesecakes, where I'm like, "Well, to be honest, there's easy ways that I can make these lower in calories." And it's the same volume of food, but it's the same tastes as well, so it's like, but possibly 200, 300 calories less. And it's like, well, that's a intervention someone could easily make to lose fat, you know, still eating all their favorite stuff. They're not, you know, buying this superfood cookbook where they have to eat edamame beans wrapped in avocado and cress or something every morning (laughs) at 6:00 AM.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
But you know what it's like? I was looking at all the cookbooks, and it's just like all these cookbooks, even the ones that are, like, just meal prep, are all using the "lose weight." It's just like, get health- healthy recipes, lose weight. So, they're just using all of the buzzwords. I'm like, "Hang on a minute. You're not giving any advice for someone to lose weight there. You're just giving a bunch of recipes that are nutritious, so that's inadvertently good for someone. But if they want to lose weight, you need to actually tell them how and give them some sort of, like, information about it." So in, in each recipe, I'm saying, "This is how you save these calories. What I did was change 10 mil of olive oil to 10 sprays of olive oil spray, or, you know, changed full-fat cheese..." Full-fat cheese? It sounds like it's not, it's not... Cheese isn't Coca-Cola.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Cheese to low-fat cheese. You know, just things like this.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
They taste the same, but you're eating the same volume. So yeah, anyway. Good plug there for the book. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, happily, man. Link, linked in show notes below.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What about, what about supplements? Obviously, we've talked about some of the ones that aren't worth their salt. What supplements are worth it, in your opinion?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Uh, yeah. It depends what you mean by supplement. So if whey protein was a supplement, which-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... I would say it probably is, despite the fact it's derived from eggs. You know, it's like, it... Yeah. It's a supplement, let's just call it. I would definitely say whey protein, for the things we've discussed earlier...... it can be difficult to hit that protein target each day. And whey protein provides a really convenient, and, you know, there's lots of flavors, tasty solution for that. You can do that within 30 seconds, mix up a protein shake or add it to yogurt, add it to porridge, pancakes, whatever. It's just really convenient. You don't need it. You know, you can get your protein from chicken, eggs, fish, you know, whatever. Um, but it's just really convenient. So that would be the number one. Um, you know, for supplements, I guess it depends on someone's situation. If somebody was perfectly healthy and consuming an abundant variety of different foods and whole foods, you'd probably say there isn't any need. Um, but what I would say is in the UK, we are probably, a lot of us are deficient in vitamin D just because of the climate. So that is certainly one during win- winter months that I take up here in Aberdeen. I mean, Jesus Christ, January when we were in lockdown here, I don't think I saw sunlight for about five days at one point. Uh, so it was just like, yeah, let's take two vitamin Ds every day. Thanks. Um, there's one. And things like multivitamins, again, are potentially just going to boost, you know, boost that functional health aspect. But you don't actually know what the benefits are. You can't see them. You know, it's like if somebody keeps getting colds, um, or viruses all the time, vitamin C is, is known to kind of counteract that. So they go on high doses of vitamin C and they don't get colds anymore. They will never know whether it was their overall lifestyle improvement of sleep, of diet, whatever, or that supplement as well. So it, you'll never kind of know. Um, those would kind of be the ones that I would recommend. Um, if you're at an elite level sort of training, um, you know, power lifting and things like that, and obviously elite level sports, that's kind of out of my level of expertise. So, um, I would, yeah, recommend consulting a, a sports nutritionist for that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
But there definitely will, will be supplements that will, will definitely give someone that extra 1%. Legal supplements, that is. (laughs) Give you something that's over 1%.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm sure. I mean, there's some illegal ones that will give you far more than 1%.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
(laughs) Some illegal ones, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I would throw into the mix there, I'd say creatine for anybody that's going to the gym-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. Sorry.
- CWChris Williamson
... whether you're a guy or a girl, um, five grams per day. You don't need to phase it, you don't need to cycle it on and off. I think I'm right.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
That is a mis- Yeah, there's misconceptions about cycling on and off, um, with creatine, but I think most of the research now suggests that that's something you don't need to do. It can just be something that you take continuously.
- CWChris Williamson
One scoop.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
And as you say, there's a l- yeah, there's a lot of evidence out there just to, to show the benefits of taking creatine. Absolutely. Um, particularly if you're looking to build muscle, you know? Absolutely. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So creatine. I would also personally, for me, I add in a greens drink. So I find, I mentioned it earlier on, Athletic Greens is just awesome.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It just means no one's eating enough vegetables. Like not even the vegans are eating enough vegeta-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Not even me. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
No, no one, not even the Fitness Chef himself is eating enough vegetables.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So yeah, man, like that, that, but that would be my, whatever it is, like a six-car garage. And you can add in funky stuff. There's some good fat burners out there. Green tea tablets I've used for years. Omega-3, 6s in stuff are good. But I wonder sometimes-
- 1:04:30 – 1:13:16
NEAT and daily movement: steps, walking habits, and mental health benefits
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the ways that people can improve their energy expenditure if they're sedentary for most of the day? A lot of us are still working from home. Perhaps we don't even have a commute to work. Maybe we've still got limited access to a gym. What are some of the easy ways that people can improve their, their NEAT?
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yes, the NEAT. So that accounts for around about 15% of your total daily energy expenditure for most people. So it's g- something we don't even think about. Like what we're doing here, fidgeting, using our hands, moving our lips, that's classed as NEAT. Um, so yeah, I mean, walking technically isn't NEAT, but it kind of is. You know, it's not planned exercise. Well, okay, it is planned exercise, but let's not get pedantic. Let's include walking in NEAT. So things like impr- you know, increasing the number of steps each day. You know, if you're able to walk, that is easy. That's an easy thing. It doesn't require you to do burpees, doesn't require you to, to lift weights if you're not comfortable doing that. Um, and even like tasks like gardening and doing laundry, all these kind of things. And a lot of people obviously have been more sedentary over lockdown because they've been working from home or on furlough. But at work, depending on your occupation, if you are a nurse, I mean, being in hospitals, the amount of walking you have to do, because they're large buildings between area to area is massive. And before you know it, they could be doing like 15,000, 20,000 steps on a shift. Um, you just don't know. And, but another person, their mate could be kind of on the same calorie spectrum for maintenance they think, but they're actually sitting around all day. So their mate who's, who's a nurse walking around, or whoever it is who's just generally more active in their occupation-
- CWChris Williamson
The guy that, the guy that works reception versus the girl that's got to go and do the thing, they've been on the same shift-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for the same amount of time, but one's moved 15,000 steps-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and the other's moved 3,000.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah. And it all adds up. It seems so insignificant because the effort to walk at a slow pace or move or, you know, get up off the couch is a lot lower than doing a burpee, for example. But over time, yeah, it will just pick it up. So th- your BMR is around 70% of your daily energy expenditure for most people, which is just by breathing. And a lot of people don't realize that. A lot of people with these apps that are around now are kind of l- it's measuring the calories burned, which is always going to be inaccurate.... and they're kind of asking, "Do I need to deduct that from my calorie target?" It's like, no, you just need to get a calorie calculator that asks you about your activity level and it will tell you your calorie target based on your activity. So, you just have to focus on that one number. You don't need to do any calculations after that. Um, yeah, and w- we discussed the thermic effect, which is about 10% of your daily intake just from food. It'd be higher if you consume more protein or lower if you consume virtually no protein. And then that leaves 5% for planned exercise. Unless you're doing intense exercise for like four hours a day, like triathlons or if you're like Ross Edgley swimming the North Sea or something, (laughs) then that's going to be, um, a lot higher and I think someone like him would need like 10,000 calories or something a day just to maintain that. Um, so yeah, increasing NEAT, going on walks with mates, um, taking up hobbies, walking dogs, all these kind of things all add up because we're, we're too sedentary really, um, as, you know... You got Netflix, you got TV with thousands of channels, you've got everything there, you've got social media, all of which requires you to be still when you're kind of looking at it. Um, so it's kind of getting out of that a little bit and just moving a little bit more-
- CWChris Williamson
My-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... um, so to speak.
- CWChris Williamson
My spine coach, uh, Dr. Stu McGill, he gives all of his patients... This is a spinal, uh, input because locomotion lubricates the spine in a way which actually reduces back pain as long as you're swinging your arms. Um, so you need that contra-movement so that you're doing this, your hips are going one way, your shoulders are going another. But he prescribes after every meal do a 15-minute walk. And when you actually put that together, if you're moving at an all right pace, that's your 10,000 steps and a bit. That's-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... more than 10,000 steps within 45 minutes if you're moving at an all right pace.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Uh, I mean, yeah, absolutely. And there's things you can do. It's not just like, you know, if you live in an area which is boring scenery, it's just you have to walk. You can listen to podcasts-
- CWChris Williamson
This one.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
... listen to music.
- CWChris Williamson
This one.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah, this one obviously.
- CWChris Williamson
Right here. Yes, thank you.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
And, and then, you know, you can even, you know, if you're someone who talks to your mates on the phone, I don't think I've ever talked to a mate on the phone since like 2008 for the most antisocial person. It's just like, "Text me or go away." (laughs) But yeah, if you're, if you're chatting away for an hour about something, walk around when you're doing it. Like, I think I have like a nervous thing when I'm speaking to someone on the phone and when I'm indoors I just walk around.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude-
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
And walk around what I'm doing.
- CWChris Williamson
So let me tell you, let me tell you about that.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, I got this insight from... Who wrote Becoming a Supple Leopard? He's been on this podcast.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Oh, god. Yes, I have, I have seen that video.
- CWChris Williamson
He's got a girl's name.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
I can't remember it.
- CWChris Williamson
People scream it. Kelly Starrett. Thank God for that.
- GTGraeme Tomlinson
Yes. That's it.
Episode duration: 1:13:17
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Transcript of episode 1hseeE7QICU
