Modern WisdomThe Brutal Side of Making It In Show Business - Zach Braff
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 15,945 words- 0:00 – 2:08
What Makes Theatre So Special?
- CWChris Williamson
As somebody that's basically a philistine and has seen maybe two or three theater shows in his entire life-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... of a career of being a spectator, and obviously a person who kind of understands the art form as well, what are the ones that stand out to you as, oh, this is... That was really, really special?
- ZBZach Braff
Well, I'll tell you, Les Misérables, which is, which, which, which is a probably a very common answer for people. I was, like, 13 years old, and I had never really been moved to tears by art before. I had never seen something as, as a young person so beautiful in my life. I was so moved by the music. I was so moved by the, the stagecraft. I was-- The story was thrilling. So that was a really seminal moment in my young life. You know, my dad had been bringing me to see all the play- Yeah, I lived in North Jersey, so my dad would bring me in, you know, it took forty-five minutes, and we... He loved theater. He, he got me into it. So he would bring me to see all these plays. A lot of them were sillies, a lot would go over my head, um, but I loved it. And then Les Misérables was the first one where I was at the right age to, to feel emotion, to have tears streaming down my face. And that's when I was like: "What is this? [chuckles] This art form is, is something that is so powerful." And so then I went on to see, like, so many productions that both, both musicals and dramas and comedies, where there was just so much joy for me in seeing it happen live and having it be different every single time.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And the shared experience with people around you who are also swiping a tear or laughing, uh, that, that's just something's really magical. When it's great. When it's great, it's just so fun.
- CWChris Williamson
What about when it's bad?
- ZBZach Braff
When it's bad, it's really bad, and, uh, it... You know, I never leave at intermission just because I've, I've... I'm an actor myself, and I feel too bad to do that. Um, uh, yeah, it can be, it can be, it, it can be horrible.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
But, um, I try, you know, I do, I do, I do filter what I... I'm not, I'm not going to see things totally blind.
- CWChris Williamson
You're not going in blind.
- ZBZach Braff
I don't go in totally blind. No, that would be, that would be, that would-- I'd be lying if I said I was just going to any random show. I, I definitely go to what I've heard my friends-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- ZBZach Braff
... uh, say, "You gotta check this out."
- 2:08 – 6:45
The Doctor Career Zach Never Had
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. I've heard that you wanted to be a doctor at one point.
- ZBZach Braff
When I was in high school, there was a program in my high school with the... The town had a volunteer rescue squad. Um, I guess, uh, that, that's just the way it works in some towns, um, in New Jersey, at least. I can only speak to that. Is that the town has a volunteer rescue squad of people who are EMTs who, who donate their time, and there's an ambulance service. On serious calls, the paramedics come in a separate ambulance from the hospital. Um, and they had a program for kids that were seventeen and up to volunteer and get trained and go on calls, and I went on many calls, um, with the ambulance service. And, you know, you're m- mostly doing the grunt work. You're, you're carrying gear, you're moving the stretchers, uh, you're, you're taking blood pressures, but it was thrilling. And, uh, I think there was a moment there where I thought, "Wow, what a, what an exciting career path-"
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- ZBZach Braff
... to be. N-not, not that I could necessarily, uh, stand the education to become a real doctor, um, ironically, but, um, but maybe a paramedic or maybe, um, something in the, something in the field.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And, um, and then I just never really, uh, excelled at the classes that, you know, biology and chemistry and, and all the things that you need to be really great at. I, I just didn't have the interest or the skill.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. The fun bits were fun, but the technical-
- ZBZach Braff
The adrenaline-
- CWChris Williamson
... bits got in the way
- ZBZach Braff
... adrenaline was fun, and coming to the rescue was fun, and, um, uh, I loved all that. I loved, I loved coming to the rescue. I loved, um, the adrenaline of it, um, and, and feeling like you helped people. And, and you felt really good. Also, there was a volunteer aspect of it that I'm, uh, that I'm sort of... That, that was an important part of it, too. I was-- I felt great that I was doing all of this and volunteering.
- CWChris Williamson
In service.
- ZBZach Braff
In service, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't it interesting? You get the three emergency services, right? You've got ambulance, fire, police. There's an issue going on, the ambulance turns up. Everybody's grateful. There's an issue going on, the fire service turns up. Everybody's grateful and turned on. The police turn up, people get a little bit suspicious. Unless you're the very person that needs it, everyone immediately gets on watch. And I always think, I always feel bad for police officers. They're doing a thing. They're still doing a service, and in many ways, they're in the line of fire. They're d-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... dealing with much more kinetic situations, I guess fi- firefighters too, and also I'm sure ambulance. But you think, fuck, like, police officers are really... You know, they're being shouted at, and there's all of this potential stuff, and they're looking over their shoulders and... I don't know. That, that must be hard. It must be hard to be a, a police officer when you look at your fellow, you know, of the three branches that you could have gone down in emergency services, like, people sort of clap and applaud, and there's a lot more heroism-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... around that. And the public-
- ZBZach Braff
There-
- CWChris Williamson
... perception, I think, of police officers has had a rough run-
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely
- CWChris Williamson
... over the last decade or so.
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely, and there's a lot more nuance to that profession than fire and, and ambulance.
- CWChris Williamson
Stop fire, get cat out of tree, or keep person alive, as opposed to do one of, like, fifty thousand million things here.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, but there was a burglary, a home r- invasion on my street, uh, this week, and, uh, it's scary. I was certainly happy that they were, they were there.
- CWChris Williamson
Home invasion, like a robbery while people are in the-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah, they broke in the house and, and, uh, held this woman and, and, and, and stole her jewelry and were in no rush to get out of there. It was scary.
- 6:45 – 11:18
The Unsung Heroes of Movie Sets
- CWChris Williamson
Who's someone on a film set or on a, on a production that makes a massive difference that most people from outside of the industry don't even consider?
- ZBZach Braff
The cinematographer, I mean, I think is the b- is the number one, uh, collaborative person the director has. That is his, his or her right-hand person. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
What's their role for people that don't understand?
- ZBZach Braff
For people that don't know, um, the way that this, everything is photographed, the, the, the, the lens choice, the way just for example, th- this interview is being lit, was lit by a talented cinematographer who chose where to put these three lights and, and how to... how, what lenses he was gonna put on the cameras and how in post-production it was gonna be colored. So much of that makes a difference. I would imagine a lot of laymen, uh, think that that's all the director.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- ZBZach Braff
The director is sort of the conductor of the orchestra. If the crew is the orchestra, the director's the conductor of the orchestra, and if the first violinist is, let's say, the most important person, uh, in the orchestra-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- ZBZach Braff
... uh, I, I would say that's the cinematographer. And the director is there going, "I can't play the violin like that. I can't play the bassoon like that. You guys are the best at what you do. My job is to go a little more of this, a little mor- little less of that." And, um... And yeah, the other position that I'm sure most people not in the business, uh, I'm sure most people in the business don't know anything about is the first AD, who is the first assistant director who's running the whole set. Um, in theater parlance, that's kind of like the stage manager. But, you know, the director is in charge of overseeing the creative aspects of, of what we're making, but someone is marshaling this oftentimes enormous crew and all the background and all the actors all around, and the, and the head of that department is the first assistant director, and that's a very stressful job. They, um, they stereotypically die young because it's so stressful.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They're trading their lifespan for good productions-
- ZBZach Braff
They are
- CWChris Williamson
... and not going into OT.
- ZBZach Braff
They always, they, they always laugh about it. They're always like, "You know me."
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
They, they always, they always have a... They always laugh and go, "You know we stereotypically die young." Um, but it's a very stressful job. It's hard to, it's hard to do.
- CWChris Williamson
They're the people that make sure it doesn't go into overtime.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah, they're managing how much time you have. So when you make a schedule for... We shoot Scrubs, for example, in, in five days, and so they're j-
- CWChris Williamson
Hang on. How many episodes in five days?
- ZBZach Braff
We shoot one episode in five days.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- ZBZach Braff
And so they-
- CWChris Williamson
Always?
- ZBZach Braff
Always, even back in the day, yeah, five days.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow, okay.
- ZBZach Braff
It's, um, it's kinda crazy. Um, the new streaming comedies have s- the, the ones that I direct have, um, have sort of moved to six and a half days, which is a lot, which you'd think only is a day and a half more, but it's a huge difference in terms of executing it in a s- in a relatively sane way. We're talking about a half hour of television. Uh, s- doing it in five days is, especially a show like Scrubs that has these, uh, surreal set pieces and, uh, you know, the fantasies and-
- CWChris Williamson
Lots of moving parts
- ZBZach Braff
... lots of moving parts, like camera being a character, and also not to mention that, you know, 60 to 100 background, uh, every day.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm, mm.
- ZBZach Braff
So it is, it's more, it's a lot to, um, to... It's a big cruise ship to, to, to, to move around.
- 11:18 – 15:30
Returning to Scrubs
- CWChris Williamson
How did it feel to be back in an old production?
- ZBZach Braff
I love it. It's a, it's a, a whole new responsibility for me because I u- I s- I did this show as a, as a young man. I was very green. Um, I learned so much doing it, and now I'm back in a leadership executive producer role being the boss, and the guy who taught me everything I know is, is not really there, and he, um, he's there to advise me on the phone and he's there to get involved when there's a fire that needs putting out. But I'm back now in a, in a, in a capacity as, as the leader and, uh, and it's a whole lot more stressful than just showing up and being funny. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Is that... Talk to me about the, the challenge of going from I just need to show up and do my lines to I need to show up and do everything and do my lines.
- ZBZach Braff
It's extraordinarily stressful. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Did you want that? Did you not just wanna go back and have fun?
- ZBZach Braff
That wasn't gonna work. Um, so Bill Lawrence created the show, and Bill, it's, it was his sort of one-person vision. You know, it was a very specific vision. The reason it worked so much, it was, it was so unique. It was comedy, it was drama, it had surreal fantasies. Uh, it had the, the, the setting of a hospital which has infinite possibilities for, for comedy and drama. These seven main characters that audiences really fell in love with and, and followed them for, for eight and a half years. Um, but Bill has many shows happening right now, so as much as everyone wanted Scrubs to come back, including Bill, he couldn't... He certainly couldn't be writing it and micromanaging it. So who would do that? Um, there's someone who runs the writers' room and is the head writer. Uh, sh- her name is Aseem Batra. She was a writer on the original Scrubs. Um, but the writers' room is here in LA. We shoot the show in Vancouver. So who is going to be overseeing Scrubs up there, the, the production of it all? Um, I had, I had partners, um, uh, s- several producing partners who helped me, but I, I know the show better than anybody. The truth, the truth, I know the show better than anyone. I direct the show, um, and I... And, and my mentor was the guy. I mean, I'm, I'm the one... The funny thing is, I keep saying this [chuckles] , is that the pilot of this new Scrubs is about JD coming back because Dr. Cox says, "You should come back. Um, we should get the band back together. You should come back and make a difference." And, and, and, and, uh, and JD acquiesces and says, "Yes, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm here. Uh, I can't wait to work with you." And then his mentor goes, "Oh, you misunderstood. I'm not gonna be here. You're in charge." That's the pilot of the reboot, the revival.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And we were up there shooting, and it's literally what happened. I had had this impression even though Bill had said, like, "Hey, I'm, I'm running, like, three other shows. I can't..." And I also... There's also just some s- s- stuff with, you know, it's a, it's a Disney property. He has a Warner Brothers deal. He can't be there.
- CWChris Williamson
Complexity.
- ZBZach Braff
So but I didn't really... I truly didn't have the epiphany until we were shooting when I went, "This is literally the show we're making." He's the one who called me and said, "Let's get everyone back together. This'll be so fun."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And now we're literally shooting the pilot, and it's so intense and so hard, and, and we're really trying to nail this for the fans. And he's like, "Oh, and by the way, I think you may have misunderstood. Like, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be there."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
"This is you. You got this."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And, uh, so I d- I did have to step up in a way that I hadn't foreseen. Um, and it was very stressful. But when the pilot was cut, it was... It changed everything. Everyone was like, "Oh, this could be really good." The studio, the, the network, Bill himself, everyone kind of changed-
- CWChris Williamson
Did it feel like a passing of the torch when you got the, the pat on the shoulder from dad finally after all of these years?
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
"You did good, son."
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely. 'Cause he's not huge with the compliments.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
He wrote me a Christmas card this year that was basically, like, the nicest thing he's ever said to me, and then it ended with, "I hope this will last for at least a year." [laughs]
- 15:30 – 18:25
Why Reboots Shouldn’t Rely on Nostalgia
- CWChris Williamson
Nostalgia's a pretty powerful force.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you make sure it's, um, serving the show instead of just trapping it?
- ZBZach Braff
I think we were very aware of what are all the pitfalls of these revivals, w- or reboots and revivals. W- we're-
- CWChris Williamson
Malcolm in the Middle's come back, too.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah, I didn't ever watch that show, but it's had, I, I, as I, as I understand it, been very well received for people that, that, that show was, uh, important to.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, for our purposes, I was very... I, I, I, I sort of did research on what are the common pitfalls of this? And one of them is just trying to milk nostalgia because you're never gonna build a new audience by going, "Remember this? Remember that? Oh, wasn't it funny?" Just doing callback jokes.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
That gets exhausting, and also it doesn't interest a new, uh, base of the audience. You're just having people that, um, were diehard fans of the original show, which isn't enough to really sustain an audience for a modern-day show that's in ABC primetime and streaming on Hulu the next day.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
You have to find, you have to find a way to build the audience. Uh, and also Scrubs was very big around the world, so there's a lot of people that are gonna, that'd be interested, but they're not, not gonna hold their interest, um, with just nostalgia bait.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
So the challenge is how do you thread that needle of, um, finding the tone again and but also bringing in new characters and new scenarios and new people? We're 50 years old now. We were, we were the kids. The show wa- I just kind of [chuckles] ... You're gonna think this is funny. I had this epiphany just recently, but we were talking about ideas for season 2. The show was about three interns. That's what the old show was about. Now the show is about three attendings, three senior doctors. The, uh, it's a teaching hospital, so it's always gonna be about have interns in it and about, and about teaching and mentorship and friendship.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
But, um, the show, the focus of the show isn't interns any- anymore. The focus of the show is the teachers.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 18:25 – 21:04
What Scrubs Means to Zach Today
- CWChris Williamson
Did it make you see your experience from the past in a different way? Kind of fascinated at the opportunity to go back. Uh, anything that's been formative for anybody, any experience. Somebody goes to, to university and, uh, they have a time there, and they look back after a decade and they wish they'd done things differently, or they see things that passed them by or that they didn't pay attention to or they paid too much attention to. And a lot of the time, "Oh, you know, if only..." It's the if only like coach had put me in, I would've won the high school game and then my NFL contract-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... rah, rah, rah.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Varying degrees of different things. I, um, I wonder if after a long time, nine years of shooting it originally-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... to then a break to then I'm back again now different role, if it makes you see that experience previously in a different light or if it allowed you to, uh, close some loops and, uh, like-
- ZBZach Braff
It made me grateful for s- how much I learned. I mean, I was-- I wanted to make movies, I wanted to make TV, I wanted to be a director. I went to film school. I got out of film school, I was working as a production assistant and, and waiting tables and auditioning or doing all the things I could to have as many, you know, um, irons in the fire as possible. And then I got Scrubs, and I was so excited because every def- every week there's a different director, and to me it was like grad school. I got to watch all of these great comedy directors do their thing, and they all had different styles, you know. They have to work within the, within the lexicon of the show, but they all had different techniques and styles and ways of doing things. And i- initially, I was just so excited to absorb, um, their, their, their wisdom and-
- CWChris Williamson
You were speed running production film school basically.
- ZBZach Braff
Exactly. At, at a, at a pro level being the star of the show-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- ZBZach Braff
... and everyone else going to their dressing rooms, me hanging out on set being like, "Oh, what, what are you doing? That's so cool." And them going, "Oh, the reason I'm doing this is 'cause of this" and so that was amazing. I think after a while, if when I look back I go I, I, I, I started taking it for granted. I, I see some of my... I-- You know, Donald Faison, my co-star, we did a rewatch podcast of the show. That was one of the-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- ZBZach Braff
... ultimately, I think it was one of the catalysts for this revival, and we were very c- candid. We, we, we watched it and, and, and didn't hold back when we thought we sucked or an episode sucked or our-- we were overacting and-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And so I think when, when I, when I looked back at it, I thought, "Wow, I, at a certain point, I don't think I was as good and, and I think I was overacting, and I think..." I, I see where the wheels kind of fell off the bus.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And so now I'm very aware of now that I'm in charge, keeping everyone, uh, uh, at a certain quality, especially
- 21:04 – 29:00
Can One Great Role Become a Trap?
- ZBZach Braff
myself.
- CWChris Williamson
Did you ever feel constrained by being so well known for one role? Obviously, there's a-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... a, a curse of success in, in some degrees. People get typecast. But-
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... what was some of the things that were enabled and some of the things that were limited by doing that? It's what everybody wants. I wanna be really well known, have a wonderful-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... big production, and then at the same time there's a, there's some side dishes that come along with that.
- ZBZach Braff
That happens to almost everyone that's lucky enough, lucky enough, blessed enough to, to have a breakout hit. Um, and it's very-- If you look at the cases in history, it's, it's rare that those people get a whole new array of, of opportunities.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, Bryan Cranston is an, a perfect example of someone who did. Did Malcolm in the Middle and was, was that guy.
- CWChris Williamson
Until he was the next guy.
- ZBZach Braff
Until he-- Un- until Breaking Bad that was passed on by, as I understand the lore, was passed on by like every network and, and, uh, until I think AMC, uh, made it, and Bryan Cranston was reborn. But they, um... That happens of course, because people fall in love with, with this beloved character, and they don't see you as, as another thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
You can't hardly complain because you were one of the extraordinarily lucky people who got a, a, an opportunity like, like that. But you do-- I'm sure every... But you can't help but bemoan like, "Oh, I wish I could, I wish I could be taken seriously as something else." I, I was lucky that I had my directing career that I really wanted to pursue, so my own movies and make my own stuff. Um, but in the last couple years, um, I've been finally getting a couple of parts that are outside the box of, of JD. Something actually through Bill again, who's been my, my biggest champion. He gave me a small part on, uh, Bad Monkey, his show with Vince Vaughn, and I was only in a couple episodes, but the part was so different and I got so much positive feedback for it, and it, it, it, it, it really gave me a newfound, um, confidence in my own ability that I had sort of gone like, "Maybe I am just, you know, a comic. Maybe I am just a sort of JD kind of guy." I mean, I knew I had more-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- ZBZach Braff
... colors in me, but, uh, the response to that little arc on Bad Monkey gave me confidence and in a, in a way, and then I went and did this ind- independent movie that just got into Tribeca where I'm 180 degrees from anything I've ever done playing the, the, this narcotics cop, um, who lost his daughter. It's a true story. And, um, so that movie's called Clean Hands, and it's gonna be at Tribeca, uh, the Tribeca Film Festival this, this summer. But so yeah, I would love to do more and more of that. Um, but I can't complain. I've had the-- I've, I've been so lucky.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. It's interesting. I, I wonder how many people get what you had, which is a kind of almost like a kind of Stockholm syndrome for your own success. So sometimes people get successful for doing a thing. Other people don't want to have to update their worldview about that person, so they don't like it when they deviate. I think we see this in our personal lives. Somebody is the party guy or the party girl-And then say I'm focusing on my health, and it's like, uh, this is... Uh, I d- I have to change who I think you are, used to be. And, like, it can sometimes cause a little bit of... Obviously people that are in your life that are wanting the best for you are very happy that you're making this positive lifestyle change, but maybe people who don't want to make that change too, their, their behavior gets thrown into harsh contrast.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But the pressure from the outside, what's interesting about what you said, was that you started to see yourself potentially in that, uh, through the looking glass thing. Like, well, maybe I am, maybe I am just that. Like, maybe that is... Like, you know, lots of other people seem to like me in that, and fuck, am I ever gonna have a better hit than that thing before? And I wonder whether it's the same thing with people who just want to change their lives. Somebody wants to go from being that thing. It's like, well-
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely
- CWChris Williamson
... everyone else is telling me that, oh, yeah, I'm so... Like, I was the fun, like, party girl or whatever, and now I'm like, I'm just a mom, and, and I'm... That's not as exciting or whatever. Maybe people don't... Maybe I'm not made for this. As opposed to, no, the... It's their, it's their problem. It's that person's issue to try and update their view of you-
- ZBZach Braff
Of course
- CWChris Williamson
... an evolving and changing person.
- ZBZach Braff
By the way, that is true in both acting and in life, that if you change who you're being, the people around you c- have to change who they're being. If I'm in a scene with you and I'm all of a sudden decide to do a take where I'm fucking screaming at you and yelling in your face. If you're even a halfway decent actor, you're gonna react differently in the scene. In life, if I totally change my life, and I'm not drinking anymore, and I'm not going out late, and I'm, um, going to the gym, and, and you as my friend are going to shift your way of being around me because you have no choice. Uh, w- we can, we can both in acting and in life shift, uh, uh, choose to shift who we're, we're being.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- ZBZach Braff
And then people can't help but react differently to us.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Yeah. Uh, Joe Hudson, personal growth wizard, talks about how if you show up in a different way, the other person's patterns can only usually exist, in his estimation, for about five to seven interactions.
- ZBZach Braff
Oh, wow.
- CWChris Williamson
So there is a, a typical way that you and your partner fight, right? They get to play the victim, and you get to play the bully. They get to play the bully, and you get to play the savior. Uh, w- whatever the accepted trade is-
- 29:00 – 35:39
Turning Your Biggest Weaknesses into Strengths
- CWChris Williamson
yes. What have been the patterns that have been the... I'm pretty fascinated by things that are double-edged swords. Uh, m- most times, uh, someone's greatest strengths are the light side of something that's kinda dark. That, um... I had Ryan Garcia, WBC welterweight champion, and he's obsessive, v- incredibly obsessive, and that's caused him at some points in his career to drink a lot and party an awful lot and to struggle to get away from it. Uh, it's also caused him to be an absolutely, like, microscopically focused athlete-
- ZBZach Braff
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... who would spend... Told me this story about how when he was a kid, he had a fight in the ring with some guy, and this guy kept on catching him with a particular shot, and Ryan went home, and he just spent two hours in his bedroom thinking about, "Why, why was he... What, what was he doing? Why was he catching me with that shot? What was he doing? What was he doing? What was he doing?" And then he went downstairs and told his dad. He's like, "Tell the kid come back tomorrow." He's like, "You, you sure? You just got beat up pretty bad. Like, that, that didn't look like a good experience." And he's like, "Bring him back tomorrow." And what he'd realized was that there was... The guy was stepping and then jabbing, and that offbeat was throwing Ryan off. And he was like, "Okay, so when he does this thing, I'm gonna step, and then I'm gonna hit him with the right." And sure enough, the, the whole game was over because he'd spent two hours replaying this fight in his head 'cause he couldn't not do it.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But that same skill of the obsession, of the attention to detail, of the hypervigilance-Also gave him the challenges of overbearing problems with his relationships, problems with his kids, problems with substances, like very, very out there, anxious sort of-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... like on edge thing. I'm interested in-
- ZBZach Braff
Mine's similar without the beating the shit out of anybody.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah. [laughs]
- ZBZach Braff
No, I, I, I have OCD, and I, I, I had it bad as a kid. I was, uh, I was one of those kids who had obsessive tapping, and you do this math in your head as a child where-- or I should say I did, where I... Y- you know, it could be a doorknob or it could be this water bottle, and you say, "Oh, I have to, I have to touch this a certain amount of times or, uh, something bad could happen to my family."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And then even as a young person, I said, "That's crazy, of course, but just to be safe." It's kinda like a superstition. Adults can relate to this.
- CWChris Williamson
Pascal's wager, the obsessive's wager.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah. Is that what it's called?
- CWChris Williamson
You know what Pascal's wager is?
- ZBZach Braff
No, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Basically that, um, I don't know whether God is real or not, but the cost of not believing in God is hell, and the potential benefit of believing in God is heaven.
- ZBZach Braff
Okay, now imagine that in an eight, uh, eight-year-old's mind going, "I'm wagering I don't want my family to be harmed."
- CWChris Williamson
Not sure if it's gonna do anything, but I might as well.
- ZBZach Braff
My brain is telling me that something bad could happen to my family if I don't hit this six times correctly. I know that's crazy, but for safety, for everybody's safety- [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah
- ZBZach Braff
... I should do it.
- CWChris Williamson
We'll do it again for safety. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
And that becomes cr- you know, I, I, I had it pretty... I had it bad, but, you know, lots of, uh, adults and children have it, uh, way worse. But I got s- I, I, I was diagnosed with, with that, and it made me an anxious-- I was anxious. Um, my father had a real, uh, uh, a temper, uh, and, um, and that was scary, and I think I was, um... He was also, he also had a lovely side and introduced me to the arts and, um, and, uh, and, and could be-- and was hilarious. He introduced me to humor. But he did have quite a temper that, uh, I think put m- me for the rest of my life on, on edge of when something bad was gonna happen, when he would randomly explode.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And, uh, that certainly affected my whole childhood and, and, and I, I, I still feel it as an adult, uh, just a sort of resting anxious state.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- ZBZach Braff
Now, that has been great for, for, uh, for me in terms of writing and, and comedy. It's-- But it's amazing that I, I, I-- Sometimes I, I find it crazy that I can operate at this, in, in these very anxious leadership positions [laughs] where so much is on the line and, and there's always a problem, and there's al- uh, uh, um... I, I, I am so grateful that I've figured out how to, um, just still step into the ring and, and, and, and, and do the really hard things like-
- CWChris Williamson
Despite not feeling like it.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah, despite like, gosh, I-- this is gonna be hard, and I'm gonna experience panic and discomfort and anxiety and adrenaline surges that aren't necessarily normal for, for the level of the problem.
- 35:39 – 42:33
The Hidden Costs of Success
- CWChris Williamson
I think ultimately what, what I was thinking about was what is the outcome that that achieves, right? Because we, we're talking about process. It's a degree of, uh, detail focus, orientation, uh, hypervigilance, um, uh, bias toward seeing problems, uh-
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... potentially before they've even-
- ZBZach Braff
Worry.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
Worry.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. We, uh, uh, playing... You know, anxiety is all about uncertainty.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm uncertain about how the future might unfold. So if I can think about all of the different ways that it might unfold, I will know all of the different potential catastrophes.
- ZBZach Braff
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So you're not, you're not usually anxious about all of the ways it might go right. Anxious about all of the ways that it might go wrong.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And if I can-
- ZBZach Braff
But as a filmmaker who can't fall asleep at night staring at the ceiling, obsessing about the big scene you have tomorrow, it's not healthy, but it-- for, for mind and body, but it is helpful in that I've probably foreseen everything that could possibly go wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yep. So you're prepared.
- ZBZach Braff
And I've got texts going out at 2:00 in the morning being like, "Did you guys da, da, da, da, dee, da, da, da, da?" And, and, you know, everyone's asleep, but I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- ZBZach Braff
... sort of going likeYou did order the blah, blah, blah, right? You know, like [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the s- dude, it's the same for me. It's the same for me with this show. Um, that, uh, noticing Dr. Jordan B. Peterson should have a full stop after the B, and, uh, you know, just wanna make sure that it's okay. And did we check that we... Have we got the release form that's signed for the thing that's gonna get the thing? Da, da, da, da, da. So what I'm thinking is lots of people who have that malady strength-
- ZBZach Braff
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, end up in situations where they, they can be very successful. So my favorite example of this is, to a degree, uh, Eddie Hall. So he's World's Strongest Man 2017, 2018. British dude, six foot three. By the time that he won, he's on the winner's podium, and he puts this trophy in the air, and he says, "Nana, this one's for you." His grandma died recently, and he sort of won this title, and he retires there. His first title and he retires, although he's worked his life to get there. He says, "If I hadn't retired at that point, I would be dead, divorced, with no relationship to my kids." He was 400 pounds at six foot three on so many PEDs that his blood pressure was, uh, so far off the charts that w- forget hypertension. This was like galactic tension. And he was working so hard with his training that him and his wife, the relationship was just completely shot.
- ZBZach Braff
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and his kid didn't see him. So e- everything was falling apart. And I think about that and I go, well, the level of obsession and attention to detail that led him to be the best in the world-
- ZBZach Braff
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... also had these side effects that came along with it. Physiological ones that were second-order side effects, but the first-order side effects of just not paying that much attention to my wife, not paying that much attention to my child, not nurturing my relationships, not thinking about the peace inside of my own brain. And as far as I can see, the people that are really successful at lots of things, not everything, but at lots of things, are paying an unreasonable level of attention to detail.
- ZBZach Braff
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
That is where the com- I'm trying to net down what is the, what's the, like, corn that's being grown out of this thing for you across your career. And it's like an unreasonable level of attention to detail.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Sounds like that in my own performance, in what's going to go on, in what might happen tomorrow, and what did happen today, and the lesson I need to learn, and why is that hap- why are you... Why have we decided, because I don't understand why you brought that fill light in. Oh, it's for the bounce off the wall.
- ZBZach Braff
Right. That's me.
- 42:33 – 51:57
Why Going All In Changes Everything
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I think about, um, people talk about developing a good work ethic, but very rarely do people talk about developing a good rest ethic.
- ZBZach Braff
I would like that. If you got that book, I'll read it.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm afraid not.
- ZBZach Braff
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I mean, look, dude, this is-
- ZBZach Braff
I, I get... I'm, this is part of my neuroses, but I go, I actually get anxious when I know I'm gonna have a long time off
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZBZach Braff
Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Does work feel like safety to you?
- ZBZach Braff
I just feel like I'm most myself, I'm most in my element when I'm collaborating and creating.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
And, uh, and when I'm not, I, um, I don't feel fully fulfilled. Um, even when I'm writing my own stuff, which is spending a lot of time alone with a computer, I'm not ha- I don't enjoy it. I'm-
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause you want the collaboration?
- ZBZach Braff
There's no collaboration. It's lonesome. It's depressing 'cause some days you're just... I'm sure you write, you know some days you're just like, "I suck."
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck. Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
"I suck."
- CWChris Williamson
I had a-
- ZBZach Braff
And then the next day you read it and you're like, "Actually, that's not bad." [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. I woke up out of bed a night's sleep. I, um, I remember this, this comment when I first started doing live stuff. So I just finished this live tour around Australia and, and New Zealand and Bali, and it was so, so sick. And, um, uh, when I first started doing live three years ago, uh, someone commented with a piece of advice, and they said, "When I'm on stage, I always have two voices that are equally loud in my head. One makes me Apollo and the other makes me Sisyphus. One says, 'You're amazing and you can keep going,' and the other says, 'You suck. You should quit immediately.'" And I just think it's so funny that when you have different elements of the same performance, right? Uh, in, in or- in order to say a thing, you need to write the thing first, unless you're gonna ad-lib it. And, and that means that some days you sit down to write and you're like, "I fucking blow as a writer." And other days you sit down to write and you're like, "I'm great as a writer." But at each different juncture, someone that tends to be a little bit more self-critical, someone that's got this predisposition toward hypervigilance can be like, "That could be better. It could always be better."
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And that tends itself toward a kind of ingratitude, like micro in-ungratefulness each different time. Because you can always see... I mean, I love that shot of the phone. It was great, but oh, if we just had another half hour, if we'd, we'd been able to get that next 120D in and we'd just been able to, you know, adapt it a little bit more. And, um, but this is what pushes somebody to be unreasonably detail-oriented and to get to a level of quality that is so beyond. And the market and status and, and, and money and acclaim, by design, there can only be one winner at an awards ceremony. There can only be one best anything, right, at a time. The market rewards someone that is going to continue to push and push and push.
- ZBZach Braff
I don't know how people enter this business without having the mentality that they're gonna go all in at it. Because what I tell young people who I see starting out is like, "Okay, but make sure you're, you're gonna go 100% of what you have," because every... In this town, every single person around you, not every single person, there's hundreds of thousands of people here that are, that are gonna work really, really, really hard.
- CWChris Williamson
They're not gonna have your lunch if you don't.
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely. If you're going to audition and you don't have it memorized and you didn't work on it as hard as you possibly could and work with your friends or work with a coach or, or in this case, there's so much self-taping, uh, get a good lighting setup and a good camera and, and a nice backdrop and, and you're just phoning it in. Do you know how many fucking people are going all out for that same part?
- CWChris Williamson
It's basically pointless.
- ZBZach Braff
You are wasting everyone's time, especially yours.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, it's crazy, uh, when you come across people that are, that are trying... I mean, I, I only know this profession, but it's crazy when you come across people that are doing it half-assed. It's like, "What are you..." There's just... You, you, you're gonna get blown out of the water.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's very much a winner takes all thing where the, only one person can play the role.
- ZBZach Braff
Right.
- 51:57 – 56:54
The Surprising Appeal of Being an Influencer
- CWChris Williamson
This is interesting. I think the number one desired job of young kids is YouTuber, and number two is influencer.
- ZBZach Braff
Oh, God. Is that true?
- CWChris Williamson
Horrendous, yeah. Um, y- kids, if you're out there, you, you don't want this smoke. [chuckles] I'm telling you, the sheer amount of screen time alone will kill you. Um, but I, I, I wonder whether one of the reasons that people like that, I mean, well, kids don't necessarily know what they're getting themselves in for. One of the reasons that maybe older people might like the idea of it is that there's kind of no rejection in the world of... You can become not popular, but no one's telling you that you don't get to do the thing.
- ZBZach Braff
You mean as a YouTuber influencer?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, if you're creating, you're just a solopreneur or a small unit and you're the guy that's in front of the camera or whatever. Like, it's your thing. You can do it as much as you want. You can send an unlimited number of two-page monologues and put them on the internet.
- ZBZach Braff
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And you are the star, even if that wouldn't have been picked up by somebody else, and no one-
- ZBZach Braff
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... it's a permissionless world.
- ZBZach Braff
That's interesting. There's clearly, um, uh, people weighing in on whether it works or not by how many views it's getting after-
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- ZBZach Braff
... a certain amount of time.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
But that's not real. That's a sort of a soft rejection.
- CWChris Williamson
Correct. Yes, exactly. That's exactly what I'm thinking.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah. It's so interesting 'cause we didn't have that growing up as a thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- ZBZach Braff
It wasn't a position. [chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
Well, think about, uh, some people on YouTube now are even doing sketch shows, equivalents of sk- of, you know, v- full productions like-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, Shane Gillis, Gillian Keeds.
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
His thing before, he's now doing tires. Uh, that's, that was him just fucking about.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you don't need, there's no, there's a much smaller, tighter thing.
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
Absolutely. And, uh, I think there's a lot of people making a great living being whatever their niche YouTube thing is. I go down the rabbit hole on these people, and I, I, I, I've got some people that I just love to watch, and I'm not even, like, I've been going down the rabbit hole on, like, these RV, uh, RVs or, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Like van life people?
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- 56:54 – 1:01:35
What Are Detectives Like Behind Closed Doors?
- ZBZach Braff
so interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I would be very interested. I can't think... I was trying to think in my mind of a TV show where the detective's personal cost of hypervigilance has been played out recently, and I can't quite think of one. And the reason that comes to mind, I, I had a conversation with a guy called Amir Levine, and he wrote the book Attached, uh, kind of broke attachment theory into the world. I think it's the best-selling attachment book. And he's just recent-written a new one called Secure, which is a, a, an, a revisitation and evolution on the previous one. One of the studies that he taught me about was they bring, uh, people into a lab who have had their attachment styles assessed in advance, and there's some anxious people in the room, there's some avoidant people in the room, then some secure people in the room. And partway through the conversation, might be one of those ones where they don't know whether it's started or not yet. They m-might be in the waiting room or whatever. And a computer that's in this office or whatever that they're sat in, computer over the far side, just gently starts wafting smoke out of it as if it's, there's some sort of computer fire that's about to occur. And he said that the anxious people are the first ones to notice, but the avoidant people are the first ones out the door.
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And what he was thinking about, because he spent all of this time talking about, well, this is what it's like to be an avoidant or a dismissive avoidant or a, a, a anxious person or a secure person. And much of what you're talking about, unless you're talking about secure attachment, is here are the problems. Here are the challenges that you need to face. Here is how to overcome them. And he's like, "Well, what about the advantages?" Because the, they-- There have to be advantages because this has been selected for, right? Evolutionarily, this has been selected for. So you have a degree of hypervigilance-
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... in the anxious people that's allowed them to pay attention to something that everybody else might not have noticed. The avoidant people are much quicker to make a decision. You know, the anxious, "Oh, should we leave?"
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Is it gonna upset someone? I'm not too..." The avoidant person's like just Wile E. Coyote-ed out the door.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, what that led him to explain to me was if you were someone that's a, an EMT, uh, or if you were a, uh, a SWAT guy, um, people who are avoidantly attached are able to partition off part of their brain. Like, "I don't need those emotions right now. I don't need you rumination. I don't need you worry. I don't need you whatever. I got a job to do or I just don't want to engage." And the ability to "I just don't want to engage" also means that there's a f- person bleeding on the side of the street, and I just need to do my job.
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I need to be a professional here.
- ZBZach Braff
That's the avoidant person?
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- ZBZach Braff
Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, their ability to partition off little bits, uh, but they wouldn't pay the same level of attention. So if you were to cast, let's say, a, a, a cop show in this manner, you would expect most of the guys that are the kinetic door kickers to be avoidantly attached, and you would expect most of the detectives that are paying an awful lot of attention to be anxiously attached.
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because they're gonna be, "Interesting. I noticed that the killer's shoe was untied on one side. I wonder what the... That's how he chok- that's how he choked him."
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Whatever the fuck. Like that... And what would be fascinating to me would be, uh, looking at somebody from the role of a detective who has this unbelievable-- I mean, you've seen this with Sherlock Holmes to a degree. Benedict Cumberbatch's replaying of that kind of, he is this unreasonably attention to detail guy-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... in his professional life that can't switch it off in his private life.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But I think seeing what you are praised for in public, you pay for in private.
- ZBZach Braff
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How could that show up inside of a, a crime, uh, detective thing-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... I think would be really cool. If you've got something that's so pro-social and lauded bringing baddies to, to heel and, um, and, you know, catching the, catching the crims.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But then also you've got what's the, what's the same talent causing on the other side-
- 1:01:35 – 1:05:09
The Most Effective Detective Strategies
- ZBZach Braff
it's interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
What are the-- What are some of the coolest strategies that come to mind? 'Cause I, I remember seeing these-
- ZBZach Braff
Well, one thing I just re- watched recently where this guy wasn't even speaking, and he was just, just silent. And, um, they-- these two guys were being aggressive, and they were like, "We know, we, we got-- We know, we know what you did. We got..." And they did have a lot of evidence that it was him. They just needed him to say it. And, um, they, uh, they, they said, "Let's give, um, the female detective a ch- a, a try." And she came in, and she went 180 degrees different. She was like, "Are you cold, sweetheart? Let me get you a, let me get you a, uh, a blanket." She got him a blanket. She says, "You hungry?" And he kinda nodded, and she got him food, and she kinda just sat next to him, and, and little by little, he started opening up to her. And it was, you know, that's a, that's a subtle thing. But-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- ZBZach Braff
... uh, you know, there-- And then af- and then he eventually, um, confessed, and, uh, it was all of, all of them strategizing for how to get him to... I don't know. I just think that, that, the, all the stuff those guys are, guys and gals are taught is, is, and then employed is really interesting to me.
- CWChris Williamson
That would be fascinating.
- ZBZach Braff
One thing that they all do [chuckles] without fail is move closer and closer and closer as the person is getting, uh, closer to confessing. They, they, they, they move their physical position.
- CWChris Williamson
Do they say why?
- ZBZach Braff
Um, I, I think it's just like m- m, uh, im-intimacy and-
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- ZBZach Braff
... and, and, um, closeness and, um, I don't know. That's, that's what's been studied to work on people.
- CWChris Williamson
Maybe create a sense of, uh, inescapableness too, that as this person is opening up a bit more, they're s- they're backed into a corner, they're backed into a corner.
- ZBZach Braff
I'm sure. I don't really know, fully know the psychology of it. I just know-
- CWChris Williamson
But you would have a three consultant criminology people on.
- ZBZach Braff
Oh, I, I would fully research it. I, I, I-
- CWChris Williamson
But it would be fucking sick.
- ZBZach Braff
It would.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, 'cause now you'd know all of this stuff, which would just be fun to know.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah. Well, you could employ it in your real life.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah. I mean-
- ZBZach Braff
Where were you last night? [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Negot- negotiate a cheaper espresso over the, the counter because you got in close and tried to touch someone on the arm twice. Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
The Ad- You saw Adolescence, right?
- CWChris Williamson
I did.
- ZBZach Braff
So that third episode with the, with the psycholog-
- CWChris Williamson
The lady circling in the-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
I mean, that was just-- That's an example where it was done just brilliantly, uh, of her being... She's, she's not a detective. She's a, a, a psychologist-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- 1:05:09 – 1:10:41
Has Television Lost Its Edge?
- CWChris Williamson
I'm interested in what you think about you-- the network TV is supposed to be dead thing.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Scrubs revival pulls in like 11 million-
- ZBZach Braff
It did really well
- CWChris Williamson
... people within the first five days.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah, they were wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think that says about where audiences really are?
- ZBZach Braff
I do think they, um, are still, you know, there's, there's a lot of metrics now for, for, um, for television, both broadcast and streaming. The first is the live viewing. That means you watched it when it was live.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- ZBZach Braff
Then they're very interested in what the live viewing plus three days, uh, was, how many people, uh, DVR'd it, either DVR'd it and watched it within three days, or a stream, uh, it was on a streaming platform they watched for three days. And then the next metric they're most interested in is plus seven days. How many people streamed it or watched the DVR they did of it, uh, within seven days. So all of those numbers are very important, uh, to the modern day streamers and networks. Um, the numbers of people watching broadcast are completely a tiny fraction of what they were back when Scrubs was on television and, you know, the shows like Friends were getting numbers like you can't believe. Um, um, I mean, I, I, I, I don't have the stats in front of me, but like the MASH finale, uh, [chuckles] was like the, uh, you know, a, a large percentage of Earth was watching it, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, that's just gone in terms of a live thing other than the Super Bowl, you know, and I'm sure certain soccer, uh, games.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, it's just not a thing anymore.
- CWChris Williamson
Olympics opening ceremony.
- ZBZach Braff
Whatever they are. We all know what they are. They're, they're usually sports. Um, um, the final thing. Um, but the, the numbers still are there on broadcast TV for, uh, for, for certain shows. People do wanna not-
- CWChris Williamson
Like Survivor?
- ZBZach Braff
Survivor's huge. Um, you know, there are comedies, uh, you know, uh, uh, like Scrubs and Abbott and, uh, and for example, that, uh-Are, are doing really meaningful numbers because people do still watch broadcast. There are plenty of people that, that, uh, they te- they, they skew older.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- ZBZach Braff
Um, obviously a younger demographic's gonna stream. It's just they don't know, they don't know broadcast. They didn't grow up with it.
- CWChris Williamson
I wouldn't be able to watch it. I don't think I have a device in my house-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah, there's a lot of-
- CWChris Williamson
... that would be able to access live TV.
- ZBZach Braff
Well, you could really put rabbit ears on your TV.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs] Go old school.
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah. You can... The, but the crazy thing about broadcast is it's in the air. It's, it's free. It's-
- CWChris Williamson
It's not yet. Yeah, yeah, yeah
- ZBZach Braff
... Yeah, here's the cold open.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- ZBZach Braff
No, uh, it- it's, uh, it's being broadcast to antennas that you could just put an antenna to your TV.
- 1:10:41 – 1:18:28
Why Game of Thrones Became a Phenomenon
- CWChris Williamson
You know what I watched? I watched, um, a d- a fucking, a Night of, a, a Night of the Kingdoms, the novella about Duncan and Egg, which is the new Game of Thrones thing.
- ZBZach Braff
Oh, I didn't watch it. Was it good?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- ZBZach Braff
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Such a shame. I'm such a massive Game of Thrones fan. Uh-
- ZBZach Braff
I really liked House of Dragon.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I thought that was fucking wonderful.
- ZBZach Braff
But nothing can beat that first se- season of Game of Thrones. That was just like, "Oh."
- CWChris Williamson
It was, it was massive.
- ZBZach Braff
I'm not into that genre at all.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
At all.
- CWChris Williamson
You don't need to be.
- ZBZach Braff
And they got me.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude.
- ZBZach Braff
They got everybody.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, I was at uni... No, I wasn't. I wasn't at uni, but I was still in Newcastle when it was happening, and, um, the volume of extras that they needed with British accents in and around Ireland, or able to access Ireland, um, was so fucking high that basically anyone I knew with a beard was being tapped up.
- ZBZach Braff
Were you, were you a-
- CWChris Williamson
I wasn't a bearded man at the time, unfortunately. Um, but we had a, we had a friend who had kind of long hair, looked sort of warlocky, and, uh, and he went and d- was he the, an extra in one of the scenes for the thing. It's just like, "Yeah, we just need people that are in the fucking British Isles to come and, and do this thing."
- ZBZach Braff
And also it's just cool because, like, they don't make TV on that scale that much-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- ZBZach Braff
... um, these days, and it... as someone who loves production and loves, uh, filmmaking, s- the seeing... I mean, it would be, it became so fun to watch the behind-the-scenes after the show.
- CWChris Williamson
One of the best parts.
- ZBZach Braff
Because it was like, "Wow, how did you do that?" And I loved that aspect of it too, just to watch, you know, big, big productions and-
- CWChris Williamson
Um, a movie being done once a week, a movie being released once a week-
- ZBZach Braff
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... movie quality stuff.
- ZBZach Braff
And they were... And they... Remember the, what's the one where the, the, the big battle, uh, where he's, where Kit Harington's surrounded? We're t- really talking about a lot of Kit Harington today.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- ZBZach Braff
But where he's surrounded, the Battle of the Bastards, I think it was called-
Episode duration: 1:18:29
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