Skip to content
Modern WisdomModern Wisdom

The Brutal Truth About Female Attraction - Macken Murphy

Macken Murphy is an evolutionary biologist at the University of Melbourne, a writer and a podcaster. Modern dating is in the middle of a cultural reset. Attraction science is evolving, men and women are changing how they show up, and everyone is trying to build healthier relationships. What does the data actually say, and is a more balanced way of dating within reach? Expect to learn what the science says about if size actually matters, if tall men cheat more, what the impact of body count on long term relationship success is, the big problem with having “ideal” mate preferences, why men are becoming more concerned with attractiveness and beautification, the benefits women gain or lose when they’re non-monogamous, what the “Rich Gay Uncle” hypothesis for homosexuality is and much more - 0:00 Does Size Really Matter? 14:37 Shocking Celebrity Body Transformations 29:05 Why the ‘Dad Bod’ Debate Goes Deeper Than We Think 37:34 What Music Can Teach Us About Intrasexual Competition 45:43 Do Men Care More About Looks Than Body Count? 01:05:56 How a High Body Count Can Affect Your Relationship 01:18:59 The Tension Between Ambition and Attraction 01:34:55 The Danger of Turning a Passion into a Career 01:46:16 How Evolving Preferences Shape Healthier Connections 02:01:46 Do Unattractive People Have Less Successful Relationships? 02:17:20 The Emotional Reality of Non-Monogamy 02:30:58 Exploring the Rich Gay Uncle Hypothesis 02:39:57 Where to Find Macken - Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostMacken Murphyguest
Dec 11, 20252h 41mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 14:37

    Does Size Really Matter?

    1. CW

      Your area of expertise, penis size preferences.

    2. MM

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      What's happening?

    4. MM

      Uh, uh, are we talking about women's penis size preferences?

    5. CW

      Uh, yeah, sure.

    6. MM

      Okay.

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. MM

      So slightly, uh, sl- slightly far afield of my, of m- of my expertise. No.

    9. CW

      Yeah, yeah.

    10. MM

      Um, okay, so women's penis size preferences are a bit of an emotional rollercoaster, I think, um, for the men listening, because when I have the ex- uh, the e- experience of presenting on this topic, uh, what I see is kind of a crescendo of, "Oh, that sounds really good," to realizing it, it's not as good as it sounds. Um, so the best study on the subject comes from Prowse and colleagues, and what they looked at was, um... What they looked at was women interacting with real 3D models of various, um, you know, penis-shaped objects, um, uh, cylinders essentially, and had them pick and choose which one they actually favored. And the reason that this study design is more powerful than just asking women, you know, "What size do you prefer?" Um, the reason that this is powerful is because it gets around issues of misreporting due to not knowing how big or small a given size is.

    11. CW

      How many times has someone said, "I think that's about, that's about six inches-

    12. MM

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      ... from the left, isn't it?" You know, when you're trying to put-

    14. MM

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... a picture up or something.

    16. MM

      Exactly.

    17. CW

      You have no idea how big-

    18. MM

      Exactly.

    19. CW

      ... six inches is.

    20. MM

      And w- and when we're dealing with things that, you know, are, are all things considered on the scale of, like, couches and cars and things relatively small-

    21. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    22. MM

      ... you know, an inch off, that's 20 to, uh, uh, 15% off, right?

    23. CW

      Also, they're not judging the penis preference based on how big it is to look at, which is what you would be doing-

    24. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    25. CW

      ... or i- in terms of memory. You would be doing it based on feel.

    26. MM

      Right. Exactly. So, eh, that's, that's a really good point. So, in terms of you can ask women on a pen and paper survey, you know, like, "What size do you prefer?" Um, but even if you get, like, a really consistent answer of, like, seven inches, you still don't know that they know what seven inches actually is, right? And there's actually good reason to suspect, uh, because men, you know, over-report their own penis size and tha- that likely causes some kind of mass confusion as to what size is what-

    27. CW

      Oh, you think we've got penis inflation effect.

    28. MM

      Yeah, exactly, where it's like men are saying that they're a certain size, and so women are maybe learning about sizes through that, causing th-

    29. CW

      Oh, he was seven inches.

    30. MM

      Yeah, exactly, and then that's coded. Um, so unlabeled 3D models, I would say that's the gold standard if you actually want to learn, um, what size is preferred. And the size that w-

  2. 14:37 – 29:05

    Shocking Celebrity Body Transformations

    1. MM

      Exactly.

    2. CW

      Yeah. Can we recap the fallout from the Olly Murs transformation?

    3. MM

      (laughs)

    4. CW

      Uh, it's a little old now, but I, I never talked about it at the time.

    5. MM

      Yeah.

    6. CW

      So, William Costello puts this Twitter poll out that for some reason goes absolutely fucking ballistic, goes completely interstellar-

    7. MM

      Hm.

    8. CW

      ... and there's basically thousands of women s- kind of saying, if you read the study, that they didn't like leanness and muscularity. This guy did a big transformation and went from kind of standard dude physique with a tiny little bit of definition to probably around 10% body fat with a, a, a okay amount of muscularity. Uh, and women were asked do they prefer the dad bod version or the lean and ripped version, and tons of them steaming in and saying, "No, I prefer that." So, give me a postmortem on Olly Murs's body transformation.

    9. MM

      I remember, I remember as soon as William posted it, I thought, "Oh, that's a really good one." Uh, I think I replied at the time, and he, uh... like, when it was, like, really early days, and he was like, "I can spot a sex difference from-"

    10. CW

      (laughs)

    11. MM

      "... miles away." He's like, "I can, I can manufacture one of these easily."

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. MM

      'Cause he obviously is very interested in sex differences or, or studies them, uh, as part of, you know, the Bus Lab and whatnot. And so he's gonna have really good intuitions for, like, how to pick good examples that will draw them out.

    14. CW

      Something that women will... Uh, women and men will basically agree about.

    15. MM

      That men will be... Yes. Exactly, exactly. Tha- tha- tha- that's what I should've said. Yeah. So, to clarify with sex difference, he asked men, "Do you think he looks better before or after?"

    16. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    17. MM

      Meaning after this incredible physical transformation where he's lost copious amounts of body fat-

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MM

      ... and goes from essentially, yeah, as you say, like, muscular guy at the pub, but not much more than that, to, you know, like, stage ready, basically. Except, you know, not, not... he's not roided up or anything-

    20. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MM

      ... but, you know, he's... he looks incredibly lean. Um, and so William posts this and says, you know, "Men versus women. You know, what, what do you guys think?" And as you say, yeah, the women strongly preferred the before and the men strongly preferred the after. And there was an insinuation by men, uh, a widespread insinuation, that women were, um, basically being coy about their actual preference or lying about their preference, and that this is kind of like, "Oh, it's known that women lie about these things." I'm in- I'm gonna... Um, the reason that I don't think that is because when you ask women about their height preferences, they're very open about saying it's tall in surveys. Right? So I, I, I look at this, th- this sort of study and this sort of data, these sort of data all the time. Women are very open about preferring taller men. Uh, they're also very open about preferring more muscular men. Right? So, women say they prefer taller men, and then you look at height and mating success, and generally, taller men are more popular on the dating market. So, that seems true and stated, true and revealed.

    22. CW

      Yup.

    23. MM

      Muscularity, same deal. Y- you ask women, "Do you like muscles?" Right? They say, "Yes, we like muscles." And then you survey muscular men, and it turns out they also have more positive romantic experiences. So, stated versus revealed, it's, it's all on track. With leanness, it's a little more complicated. Um, it does seem that women don't prefer too lean. And when you look at the Olly Murs transformation, I would say that the main difference before and after, if we were to look at it... Like, he does look more muscular in the after, but I would say that very likely, he just lost fat. Right? Like, I've, I've seen those sorts of transformations before. Usually, it's just fat loss rather than any actual muscle gain. And so I think that what happened here is partially that men looked at the photos and said, "Wow, that guy got jacked," and then women said, "Oh, you know, I don't really like that." And they're like, "Oh, what? So you don't like jacked guys?" Right? But women were seeing that and saying, "Oh, this guy just, like, lost a lot of body fat, and I don't like men who are too lean."Uh, so women's, uh, body fat percentaget- preferences from the research we have, um, are a little heavier than what-

    24. CW

      The gym bros think.

    25. MM

      Well, it's heavier than 10%. Right?

    26. CW

      It's like 15, right?

    27. MM

      Yeah, it's closer to that. So in the most recent study from Zia and colleagues, uh, they used DXA images. Now, DXA ima- images is actually ... There's a, there's a big pro and a big con. The bi- the big pro is that we know the body fat of the men. We know the body fat percentage, right? We actually ... It, it's not a guesstimate. The con is that, like, a DXA image doesn't look like a real man, so I think that's a real limitation of the study. Um, but in that study, it was between 13 and 14.1% body fat.

    28. CW

      Yep.

    29. MM

      So that's still pretty lean, by the way.

    30. CW

      Mm-hmm.

  3. 29:05 – 37:34

    Why the ‘Dad Bod’ Debate Goes Deeper Than We Think

    1. MM

      yeah, yeah.

    2. CW

      Um, I remember a friend of mine's a- a fitness athlete throughout pretty much every different discipline. He was a powerlifter, he was a weightlifter, he did bodybuilding, he did, uh, everything. Has been with the same girlfriend throughout all of these.

    3. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    4. CW

      And she said, uh, "I felt the most comfortable with you when you were powerlifting."

    5. MM

      Oh, that goes well with my formidability anecdote. That's-

    6. CW

      Now, if you were to pick the fattest of the strength sports-

    7. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CW

      ... after strongman, it would be powerlifting.

    9. MM

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      It wouldn't be weightlifting. There's a bit more athlet- athleticism required there. It wouldn't be high rocks or CrossFit or bodybuilding like in this spectrum-

    11. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      ... of leanness. And, um, I had this insight that basically if you see ... As a woman, if you see a guy that is very lean, very ... Uh, even very muscular, even very beautified, even very preened in a way that's evidently trying to attract the opposite sex as opposed to, like, some weird-

    13. MM

      Interesting.

    14. CW

      Yeah, exactly. Um, what that suggests is for every calorie that you have to spend in the world, quite a bit portion of that is going to go to trying to attract the opposite sex through this sort of beautification thing, even if you're getting it wrong.

    15. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      Even if you don't know what the other sex likes. And actually, if you don't know what the other sex likes, you fucked it even harder 'cause that suggests that you don't understand us-

    17. MM

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      ... and you're trying to do it.

    19. MM

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      So this idea of ... It- it really made me rethink dad bods. Like, what- what is a dad bod? Is a dad bod the body of somebody who is a father-... or is it the body of somebody who would make a good father?

    21. MM

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      Is that... Do you understand the distinction here?

    23. MM

      I do, and what's funny, uh, what, what you're getting at is actually the result of a... You're, you're anticipating the result of a study that's already been done on dad bods, where they essentially... This was back when the term dad bod, which, which isn't as hot as it once was. I mean, that term was, like, very viral in, uh, I believe it was 2020. And, uh, what the researchers did when this term was peaking was they investigated personality perceptions-

    24. CW

      Mm.

    25. MM

      ... as a result of body type, and what they found was what, what, what you're describing, uh, which is that they were ascribing more positive fatherly qualities to men who were less lean.

    26. CW

      There you go.

    27. MM

      And I think that there is a tension among animals in general that pair bond and expect paternal investment that... Look, you can engage in paternal investment, or you can engage in mating effort, right? And you can't do both-

    28. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MM

      ... those things at the exact same time. I mean, maybe to an extent, paternal investment can be mating effort in some cases-

    30. CW

      Mm-hmm.

  4. 37:34 – 45:43

    What Music Can Teach Us About Intrasexual Competition

    1. CW

      It feels like this is related to what you learned about formidable from the female rapper Glorilla.

    2. MM

      (laughs) Yeah, well, I, I mean, I, I, uh, I do a lot of these on TikTok. It's a very TikTok-y thing to do. Uh, they do tend to go viral. Where I'll just play, generally a woman's rap song, and just listen to it and react, you know, from, from an evopsych perspective. And it's a really useful teaching tool, frankly. Uh, it's a very useful teaching tool from my area of specific interest and expertise. It, it, it's really good for mate preferences.

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MM

      Um, because you see that in a lot of types of music, people are very coy about their mate preferences, right? Like, they don't necessarily state them, and if they do state them, they don't state them accurately.

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MM

      But then you re- you listen to rap music, and you just get very accurate stated preferences, where it's like, yeah, I know the study. Like, I'm, I'm listening to it. I'm hyped. I'm like, "I know the studies. I know that that's accurate."

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      "Like, that's true." Like, um, so you'll hear, you know... And you also see more blatant intrasexual competition, where it's not-

    9. CW

      Su-

    10. MM

      Where it's not beating... Yeah, it's not beating around the bush. It's saying, like, straight up, "I actually have..." Like, like, uh, I was listening to, um, the rapper Latto. And she was, um, she was bragging about the fact that, you know, sh- her body count is so low that she might say that she's a virgin, right? She's mocking her rivals for, like, giving it up too easily, quote unquote. Um, she's flexing the fact that she has tons of resources, um, that her boyfriends don't mind if she cheats essentially, right? Um, so she's paradoxically signal- she's signaling some things that are conflicting there.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MM

      But she's basically saying like, "I'm the ultimate, like, female-"

    13. CW

      I'm the fucking omega female here.

    14. MM

      Yeah, I'm, I'm the highest... Yeah, exactly. "I have the highest mate value on all these r- variables. Um, I have the highest reproductive value, value on all these variables. Um, and I'm also, I've also got more resources for my future offspring than you could ever dream of, and I'm acquiring more from males constantly, um, who don't care if I'm going out and, and getting, you know-"

    15. CW

      I can't lose.

    16. MM

      "... mo- yeah, more genetic heterogeneity from multiple mates," right? Like, so it's, uh, so it's, it's in- it's incredible to listen to, um, just the blatant, um, discussing of it. And I, you know, I have a great appreciation for it, and it's been, it's been good for, it's been good as a teaching tool. I feel like I've been able to teach a lot of people who would never take an evpsych class-

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MM

      ... about mate preference.

    19. CW

      Well, it's just as well that you're using rap music. 'Cause if you were using metal, like if you're listening to a Bad Omens song-

    20. MM

      (laughs)

    21. CW

      ... uh, to try and work out what Noah Sebastian thinks-

    22. MM

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... about, like, his mate preferences-

    24. MM

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      ... it's all couched in fluffy fucking language. You know, it's-

    26. MM

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... it's too whimsical. "Oh-

    28. MM

      Well, with metal-

    29. CW

      No, Noah, tell me, tell me about hitting it from the back. That's what I need."

    30. MM

      There is a study on, uh, metal guitarists where they were like, "Is this, um, intrasexual competition, or is this intersexual attra-..." 'Cause it's pretty clear with other forms of guitar playing that the guy who gets the guitar out to play Wonder Wall, right-

  5. 45:43 – 1:05:56

    Do Men Care More About Looks Than Body Count?

    1. CW

      all checked. So, okay, I remember reading forever ago, and I've not been able to find it again and I'm gutted, a study that was looking at, um... Maybe it was had this happened or maybe it was women being asked to envision it happening, uh, an altercation occurring where their male partner was unable to protect them.

    2. MM

      Mm.

    3. CW

      And that the question was, "How much does your attraction drop pre- and post- this interaction, or pre- and post-infidelity?" And that the pre- and post- he couldn't protect me was greater-

    4. MM

      Mm.

    5. CW

      ... than infidelity.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      And I haven't been able to find it again.

    8. MM

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      Is there... Have you come across this? You're like m- the fucking ChatGPT of-

    10. MM

      I haven't come ac-

    11. CW

      ... AP studies.

    12. MM

      Well, uh, I, I hallucinate quite a bit less, I would hope, but, uh, I think that I actually did see this, and I think that it was actually an online poll rather than... So that's probably why you weren't able to find it. I think I, I'll take the results kind of face valid, that... I mean, attraction is a funny word, right? 'Cause it's like I wouldn't be surprised if you even found that a breakup was more likely to be precipitated... I- infidelity has a very high breakup consequence rate. Um, it's, it's one of, if not the most common causes of divorce, um, and it, it's a very common cause of relationship dissolution. You don't really hear about, you know, men losing fights and it leading to breakups as often. Although, you know, maybe it's just such a low frequency event that it doesn't have the same influence on human relationships. But I think it could even be the case, what I'm getting at, is that the attraction component is taking a bigger hit, but the actual relationship stability, um, may- maybe it goes the other way. I'm not sure.

    13. CW

      Mm.

    14. MM

      It doesn't surprise me though. I mean, it's, um... It, it's a, it's a huge negative signal-

    15. CW

      Mm.

    16. MM

      ... in my mind, yeah.

    17. CW

      Beauty matters way more than chastity, and it's not even close.

    18. MM

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      Explain that to me.

    20. MM

      Well, you see these studies on the importance of... So we have these cross-cultural studies going back to the, uh, going back to 1989, uh, w- with David Buss, where you look at, you know, men's stated preference for, um, chastity versus good looks, um, and you also look at these more recent kind of individual level studies that are a little more modern and, and take different methods. And I would say, yes, that men, on average, care more about looks than a woman being chaste or pure. Uh, for example, there was one study where men perceived one group of woman as more, uh, physically attractive and likely more promiscuous. Th- that was their inference, which is commonly the case with, um, attractiveness, where when people perceive attractiveness, they tend to also perceive promiscuity. And they still chose, uh, they still chose that group. I mean, there's this, um... I think it's actually, I think it's actually apocryphal. I think it's... I, I hate to ruin this, but it, I- I do think it's a, I do think it's a fake advertisement. But I think that the advertisement... And look, it's a, it's a, it's a rather objectifying ad. I don't, I don't think it's the way we'd speak on Modern Wisdom, let's say.

    21. CW

      Mm.

    22. MM

      But the fact that this advertisement is so viral shows that it's tapping into something...... that is appreciated, um, to some degree or, or reflects something true-ish, where it's, uh, it was a used Porsche dealership ad, where it was, "You know you're not the first, but do you really care?" Right? And it's a beautiful woman-

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    24. MM

      ... right, is the idea.

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. MM

      And I think that tha- the fact that that's something that's very clickable, very viral, um, shows that it, it is something that a lot of men find intuitive, but it's also something we see in these studies that does, you know, signals to low sociosexuality. Are those attractive? Of course. Right? But is it a high priority? Uh, not really. No. Men, men put looks over, um, chastity-

    27. CW

      Why?

    28. MM

      ... in most cases. Well, eh, that's interesting. I think, um, I think that's a question that I'll have to think about and circle back to you 'cause it's a really good one. But the first thing that's coming to mind is that especially in a modern environmental context, where we have contraception and where a lack of sexual history might signal some kind of religious commitments-

    29. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MM

      ... or strange, or, uh, uh-

  6. 1:05:56 – 1:18:59

    How a High Body Count Can Affect Your Relationship

    1. CW

      What is the impact of body count on long-term relationship success?

    2. MM

      Um, I mean, it's very intuitive. I'm always surprised by how controversial this is, 'cause I say it quite a bit, and I say it n- not even kind of bracing for impact, if that makes sense. I'm like, this will... This seems intuitive, right? But people who love to have casual sex and sleep with lots of people and hop from relationship to relationship, and as a result of all those behaviors, end up with a higher number for their age than you would otherwise expect. Those people are less likely to succeed in long-term monogamous pair bonds than people who do not like doing that and do not have that sort of track record. And that... And when I say succeed, I mean in terms of every outcome measure. I mean, uh, l- l- you know, more likely to get divorced, less likely to be satisfied in their relationships. Uh, more likely to cheat. Uh, there, there was one analysis, I believe it was by the IFS, where if an individual... And this is from... This is all true for men and women, by the way. They're... I know that on the internet, uh, there's a huge focus on women, but th- all these effects, there's no sex difference, and sometimes the effect is even larger in men than women.So that aside, right, we're, we're, we're talking about everybody here. Uh, if you subdivided the data neatly and said, "People with a body count below five, people with a body count above five, what's their infidelity rate?" The infidelity rate of the above five group- group was double that of the below five group.

    3. CW

      No way.

    4. MM

      Yeah. So this is not... This is not a nothing burger, right? This, th- this is a thing. Uh, and the reason it's a thing is very intuitive, right? It's like, what is an affair, for example? Like, an affair is a form of casual sex. And so if someone has had lots of casual sex, they're telling you, to some extent, "Oh, I'm more likely than someone who has not done this... I, I probably enjoy this," right, "'cause I keep doing it over and over." I mean, I'm sure there are some cases where that's not true and, and people change obviously, but it's a huge... You know, past behavior is a predictor of fut- future behavior. So you're basically saying, "Oh, I've got..." Like, when people are surprised by this, I'm surprised because it's like you've got two groups of people, let's say, people who have slept with lots of people and people who haven't, and you're trying to predict who's gonna sleep with more people in the future going forward.

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MM

      (laughs) Like, why, why would you, why would you predict anything other than the-

    7. CW

      The only, the only explanation that I could come up with is that somebody has closed the loops.

    8. MM

      Oh, they've gotten it out of their system. Yeah, the classic, uh... Imagine if I said that with alcohol, right? "I'm gonna get it out of my system." (laughs) "I'm gonna... So I can drink less in the future, I'm going to drink more during my underground." Right?

    9. CW

      (laughs)

    10. MM

      Imagine if I said this with drug use.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. MM

      Imagine if I said it with positive things. Imagine if I said, "I'm gonna get the gym out of my system."

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. MM

      Right? That, there, that, that doesn't happen, that it's like, "Oh, I'm gonna go to the gym every day. I'm gonna work on my muscles. And then in the future, I am not going to want to do it as much 'cause I used to do it." Like, you build healthy habits, you build unhealthy habits. And so, yeah.

    15. CW

      Do you think, do you think that there's ever the potential for somebody to stray because they had unfulfilled variation early on in their sexual, uh, career?

    16. MM

      That's a... I mean, it's a really good point, and I think that what we're talking about here is average population level trends, which is the sort of thing this data is good for. I think that there probably is some causal relationship, but the data don't speak to that yet, and you actually can't ethically design the sort of experiment that would tell us.

    17. CW

      Fucking ethics boards, dude.

    18. MM

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      They suck so hard. Um, so I'd love-

    20. MM

      So many interesting questions that we could answer.

    21. CW

      I think, I think it's an interesting one around, um, how people interpret sociosexuality. Buss had, in The Evolution of Desire... I swear, one of the lines that's still in my ReadWise is, "The single biggest predictor of extramarital sex is premarital sex."

    22. MM

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      Is that true?

    24. MM

      Well, it's sex predicting sex, right? Again-

    25. CW

      But is that true? Is the single biggest predictor of extramarital sex premarital sex?

    26. MM

      Single biggest predictor? Uh, well, it's David Buss saying it, so I'm very tempted to just-

    27. CW

      Slightly older book though, right? Like, has... Evolution of Desire is what? How old now?

    28. MM

      Yeah, that's true. It's, it's nine- it's like 1999, I believe. So I've... I mean, in my data and looking at other people's data, I would say relationship dissatisfaction.

    29. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MM

      But that is-

  7. 1:18:59 – 1:34:55

    The Tension Between Ambition and Attraction

    1. CW

      so great. Okay, 7.1 million views quote-tweeting, "Men do not care about your career, ladies. I'm sorry, they just don't. They will date a waitress at Applebee's over a corporate executive if they treat them right and make their lives easier."

    2. MM

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      What does the science say about this?

    4. MM

      Uh, well, the men don't care about your career, it kinda depends on what men you're talking about. If you're talking about successful men, they clearly do. I mean, there's no... Like, this whole meme-... of successful men will date a, a, a, what did it say, a waitress?

    5. CW

      Applebee's.

    6. MM

      A Apple Bee's waitress. Okay. Um, so, the successful men will date an Apple Bee's waitress, doesn't line up with the data that richer men tend to select richer women, more educated men tend to select more educated women. Um, richer women appear basically immune to the decline in marriage that has transpired, um, since the 1970s. So, i- i- it, when you look at this data holistically, i- i- it doesn't seem to be the case that there is a effect of men selecting downward for youth and beauty and, uh, and whatnot-

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      ... at the expense-

    9. CW

      Trading wealth for looks.

    10. MM

      Yeah, at the expense of career and education. When you look at the most successful men, they tend to pair up with the most successful women. Uh, this whole, like, men will date a Denny's waitress kind of fantasy-

    11. CW

      Be careful with what you say about Denny's. I'm a huge Denny's fan.

    12. MM

      I d- no, nothing, well, there's nothing wrong with being a Denny's waitress, but I'm just saying that that be-

    13. CW

      No, no, no, no, I don't care about the waitresses. I care about the restaurant.

    14. MM

      (laughs) Okay.

    15. CW

      Okay?

    16. MM

      So Applebee's then.

    17. CW

      Uh, yeah, Applebee's you can talk shit on as much as you want.

    18. MM

      Okay. I'm not talking shit. I'm not talking shit. I'm just saying that this-

    19. CW

      Yeah, but if, well, just be careful with Denny's, dude.

    20. MM

      I will.

    21. CW

      I'm a proud-

    22. MM

      Tip toeing around it.

    23. CW

      I'm a proud fucking Denny's attendee. Um, one point that I do wanna bring up-

    24. MM

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      ... a friend of mine has, uh, an Applebee's theory of attractiveness. Um, which is, if you see some chick that's super famous, like, um, a Sydney Sweeney, for instance. So he uses this example of, uh, Jennifer Aniston, uh, versus Megan Fox. Jennifer Aniston you could see working at Applebee's. Like, you just saw her, you'd be like, "Fuck, that's a hot Applebee's waitress." But you could see her working at Applebee's. There's no way Megan Fox work in a- works in Applebee's. We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, if you have been feeling a bit sluggish, your testosterone levels might be the problem. They play a huge role in your energy, your focus and your performance. But most people have no idea where theirs are or what to do if something's off. Which is why I partnered with Function, because I wanted a smarter and more comprehensive way to actually understand what's happening inside of my body. Twice a year, they run lab tests that monitor over 100 biomarkers. They've got a team of expert physicians that analyze the data and give you actionable advice to improve your health and lifespan. And seeing your testosterone levels and tons of other biomarkers charted over the course of a year with actionable insights to actually improve them, gives you a clear path to making your life better. Getting your blood work drawn and analyzed like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function it's just $499. And right now you can get $100 off, bringing it down to 399 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save that $100 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom.

    26. MM

      And what does this test meant to deduce? Where are we-

    27. CW

      Whether or not you can, whether or not you're actually able to sleep with super famous celeb women.

    28. MM

      Oh, okay.

    29. CW

      It's total f- uh, pulled out of his ass bro signs. But he basically says, like, "If you can imagine her working at Applebee's, you've probably got a shot." Like, it's, it's-

    30. MM

      Yeah, you've got a shot.

  8. 1:34:55 – 1:46:16

    The Danger of Turning a Passion into a Career

    1. CW

      the same niche.

    2. MM

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      One other interesting, uh, fucking appendage to add onto the work that I do, uh, unfortunately, there is basically no moat around podcasting, because everybody has conversations, and what you're basically doing is chatting shit for a living.

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      And the issue of that is that everybody partakes in what you do in one form or another, and what I do and the particular skill set that I have built up, like, permeates the rest of my life in a way that if I was a surgeon or a UFC fighter it wouldn't. Unless you're a very bad fighter-

    6. MM

      (laughs)

    7. CW

      ... you're not randomly getting into punch-ups on the street or over dinner or with your partner.

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      And you presumably, you're not just, like, spontaneously doing improv surgery when you're out at a bar.

    10. MM

      Right.

    11. CW

      Um, but everybody partakes in what I do, which means that, at least in my experience, um, it's been sometimes a little bit of a challenge to make girls feel comfortable not being, not having a self-assessment of they're boring.

    12. MM

      Oh, yes. I completely understand where you're going, is that you're like a professional conversationalist whose job is to talk to the most interesting people-

    13. CW

      Who, what the fuck have I got to talk to them about?

    14. MM

      Yeah, exactly.

    15. CW

      What have I got to tal-... You just spent the afternoon with Jordan Peterson on Mack and Murphy talking about... God. Like, you know, it would be, it would be like being a professional porn star and going home to your amateur-

    16. MM

      (laughs)

    17. CW

      ... amateur sex. But a-

    18. MM

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      ... apart from the fact that you have sex everywhere, you have it over dinner, you have it as the kids are at the table, you have it, you know, as you're doing the dishes, um, it would be like that. And this is what I mean, it permeates everything. So it's an interesting cha- so I, what, what I'm saying is that-

    20. MM

      Incredibly unique ..........................

    21. CW

      ... podcasters need more sympathy-

    22. MM

      Yeah. (laughs)

    23. CW

      ... is what I'm saying. Jesus fucking Christ.

    24. MM

      Well, it's, uh, yeah. I mean, that i- that is, that is absolutely fascinating. I, I, I'm glad I double-clicked there, because I, I was expecting just the kind of mechanics of the work being hard to understand, but the porn star analogy really drove it home for me. Uh, you know?

    25. CW

      Well, I know the language.

    26. MM

      Do you feel, do you feel... Yeah. Do you feel when you get home, so to say-

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MM

      ... that there is a... So I was speaking to a guy who's a professional guitarist in his early 20s, and he said it ruined guitar for him.

    29. CW

      Metal?

    30. MM

      No, not metal.

  9. 1:46:16 – 2:01:46

    How Evolving Preferences Shape Healthier Connections

    1. MM

      yeah.

    2. CW

      Uh, yeah, okay.

    3. MM

      Interesting.

    4. CW

      The bottom 40% of men and top 20% of women are now hyperandrous. What's that mean?

    5. MM

      Well, I'm glad that you, uh, struggled with the pronunciation there 'cause it actually highlights a- just how interesting this change is, that hyper- hypergamy, hyper- hypergyny, uh, have been these pre- prevailing norms, uh, hypergamy just meaning, you know, marrying up essentially. And the default when you say that term has been, "Oh, that's- that's women marrying up," right? That's- that's almost always what it's- what it's meant to refer to. Uh, and over the last half century or so, uh, women's economic and social gains have been tremendous, such that men and women are rather equal in terms of their economic an- e- economic productivity and social status. And this has occasioned a rebalancing of the mating market such that if any significant number of people pair up, there is going to be a number of people who are pairing up in the reverse of the normal, hyperandry, right? The- wh- where the male is mating up. That's a term that I actually believe was- was coined by, um, by one of my supervisors, Rob Brooks, who- who you-

    6. CW

      Yeah, I love Rob.

    7. MM

      Yeah. So, it's interesting. Um, what do you wanna discuss related to this, uh, like-

    8. CW

      W- well first off, explain- explain what the bottom 40% of men and top 20% of women are now dating more socioeconomically successful women to less socioeconomically successful men.

    9. MM

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand what you're-

    10. CW

      Why is that? Why bottom and top? What ... Explain that to me.

    11. MM

      If you were... Oh, so, I understand. So the one real risk of confusion here potentially would be that thinking that they're pairing up with each other. So, what seems ... What- what that data reflects, this is from the IFS analysis, is that, and I believe it was 1.4 million was the sample size, so it's- so it's- it's a- it's a lot of people.

    12. CW

      Pretty representative.

    13. MM

      Yeah, yeah, it's a lot of people. Um, is that the bottom two quintiles of men on average, right? If you were to take ... If you were to separate ... And it's just a way of- it's just a way of looking at the data. I- it's nothing more than that. If you were to separate people into quintiles and say, "Okay, what are the bottom two quintiles of men doing, like, on average?" And on average, those men are marrying up. So if you were to take one of them at random and say, "Do you earn more or does your partner earn more?"

    14. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MM

      On average they would say, "My partner earns more."

    16. CW

      And that's the 0th percentile to 40th percentile of income?

    17. MM

      Yeah. And if you look at 80th percentile to 100th (laughs) percentile of income in women, um, the top quintile-

    18. CW

      They're marrying down.

    19. MM

      They're ... And you were to just randomly say, you know, "Are- are- d- do you make more or does your husband make more?" On average they would say, "My- my ... Well, I- I make more." Um, and that's- that's a real change. I think it's pretty interesting. And it's hard to know how much this reflects a re- This is a recalibration of behavior to th- the new landscape.

    20. CW

      Ecology.

    21. MM

      Yeah, the new ecology. Uh, it remains to be seen how much it's a recalibration of, uh, of preferences. Uh, I know that-

    22. CW

      Well that's what-

    23. MM

      I know that this is something that's very interesting to you, um, but as humans, I think what-

    24. CW

      Well, as a woman in the top 20% income bracket-

    25. MM

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      ... it's unbelievably interesting to me.

    27. MM

      Yeah, it is interesting, right? I think it's interesting, too. It- it's what I've, uh, it's what I've been studying for the last year. It's a problem that I've been thinking about. Uh, we've got some new research under peer review right now on this exact subject.

    28. CW

      Can you say much about that or is it too early to blow your load on it? (laughs)

    29. MM

      It's ... (laughs) I wouldn't use that phrase, but-

    30. CW

      Premature publication?

  10. 2:01:46 – 2:17:20

    Do Unattractive People Have Less Successful Relationships?

    1. CW

      Uh, I voice noted you a while ago basically saying, could birth rate and coupling rates be going down because everyone is just fatter now?

    2. MM

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      Uh, basically my argument (laughs) and this is a reductive way to put it.

    4. MM

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      Basically I said, can a civilization make itself too unattractive?

    6. MM

      I think, I think I nixed this idea in the, in the, in the...

    7. CW

      You don't wanna talk about it?

    8. MM

      I'm, no, I'm, I'm, I'm abs- no, I'm, I, I suggested it as something we could talk about.

    9. CW

      Oh, okay. Okay.

    10. MM

      I think that in our initial interaction I said, "Ah, I'm not, I'm not sure."

    11. CW

      Okay.

    12. MM

      But I'm happy to talk about it more.

    13. CW

      Okay. So here's, here's my, here's my perspective. I wondered whether or not...... humans can eat themselves out of being attractive sexual objects. Like, obviously, with increasing weight, there's changes in vasculature, libido, uh, like-

    14. MM

      Facial features.

    15. CW

      ... fucking issues, like et cetera, et cetera. But even though people typically mate with people of a similar level of attractiveness, presumably there is kind of a flaw-

    16. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      ... below which people are just less attractive, no matter how unattractive you are. And especially if it's becoming unattractive due to gaining a lot of weight. Like, if you're morbidly obese, what you know inside is maybe a you that wasn't, and maybe your sense of your own mate value, you kind of have, like, a alpha widow distortion of yourself. You have, like, mirror widow distortion-

    18. MM

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      ... of yourself, where you think, "Well, look, I know that I might be a bit fucking fat right now, and then maybe that's made me go from a five to a four to a three," or whatever it might have been. Uh, "But I know, like, deep down, I know that I'm not, and I sh- really shouldn't be dating this sort of a p-" And people's... I wonder if our own sense of our own mate value physically is able to be sufficiently malleable to wax and wane with the sizes of weight gain that we've seen. And I'm wondering whether the lack of coupling up and the increase in birth rates could just be due to the fact that everybody finds each other a bit less attractive because the number one source of malnutrition globally is obesity, not starvation.

    20. MM

      (laughs) I think, uh-

    21. CW

      Not saying all the starving people are having sex either. (laughs)

    22. MM

      (laughs) I think, uh, I think the, the, uh, there's a few interesting threads that you've pulled out there. One is that there is the, you know, very broad correlation in the sense that over the same time period that we've seen singleness and sexlessness rise, there's been, uh, there's been obviously increasing obesity over that time, same time period. And then, also, um, we're gonna get to run the experiment here. Uh, with these GLP-1 agonists, uh, there's already been a massive reduction, and there's, that, that reduction's going to, going to continue. I think that we're going to see obesity essentially disappear from America in our lifetime, and that's, uh, that's, that's an incredible... From a health perspective, from a human flourishing perspective, that's an incredibly positive thing. Uh, as far as the causes of sexlessness and singleness, I actually think, this is something that I was speaking to Andrew Marr about rather recently, is that I think that the coincident timing with, in the case of singleness, declining marriage, et cetera, I think it do- I think it is downstream of what we were discussing earlier more than anything. Um-

    23. CW

      Old girl problem?

    24. MM

      Well, it's a complex, it's a complex issue, right? But because here's the thing, is that people hear, people hear reducing marriage, and they think... Sorry to interrupt you.

    25. CW

      No, no.

    26. MM

      It's a, it's a habit of mine. It's terrible.

    27. CW

      No.

    28. MM

      People hear reducing marriage rates, and they think reducing marriage rate's bad. But a lot of the people who aren't getting married-

    29. CW

      Shouldn't have gotten married.

    30. MM

      ... are people who shouldn't have gotten married, right? Like-

  11. 2:17:20 – 2:30:58

    The Emotional Reality of Non-Monogamy

    1. CW

      I sent you a car voice note a few moments ago talking about the asymmetry of costs and benefits of men and women for non-monogamy.

    2. MM

      Mm.

    3. CW

      And I've never heard anybody else talk about this, although I'm sure I'm not the first to talk about it, so I'm gonna try and remind you of what it was that I said. So basically, uh, I was thinking about the prospect of a man and a woman entering non-monogamy and what the benefits are and what the costs are. So the unique thing that I haven't heard anyone talk about before is that there are greater benefits for men because on average, men have more variety in their sexual fantasies, across any single sexual fantasy if you ask a man how many partners he wants to try out in his life, et cetera, et cetera, it tends to be higher. Men, do men have higher sociosexuality? Is that a way that you would be able to say it?

    4. MM

      Oh, yeah.

    5. CW

      Right, okay. But that, that would be-

    6. MM

      It's one, it's one of the most replicable findings in all of psychology.

    7. CW

      Okay, so men are more sociosexual than women. They want more, more, uh, sexual partners and they're more, uh, open to casual sex too, which is typically what non-monogamy has, at least in part. But they're also more subject to dissatisfaction at the thought that their partner is getting physically intimate with another person-

    8. MM

      Mm.

    9. CW

      ... specifically another man.

    10. MM

      Mm.

    11. CW

      Uh, so there are greater benefits, but there are greater costs, and both are paid by the man. If there was such a thing as emotional non-monogamy, not sexual non-monogamy, emotional non-monogamy, so for the guys that are listening, imagine the relationship that you're in, potentially, uh, you get to sleep around, but you have to deal with your missus sleeping around. How much hey do you get from getting to spread about a bit versus how much ugh do you have by the thought that she's being spread at a bit? Now, the inverse would be, uh, and it's, it's typically different ways that you can set up non-monogamy, but a lot of them are physically you can be intimate, emotionally we are monogamous. Like that's one relatively common setup. Imagine the inverse. Imagine physically we can be monogamous, but emotionally we are allowed to spread about. Now, I would suggest that in those situations, women would feel very uncomfortable with it. That's not for me to say that women don't already feel very uncomfortable with the non-monogamy thing, but I think that's because they don't derive the same benefits that men do, not because they pay higher costs.

    12. MM

      Mm.

    13. CW

      Uh, as in, they're not gonna find it quite as painful. They're still gonna find it very painful, especially if you're not agreeing to this, if you're being fucking conned, coerced, persuaded into doing this thing, um, but the pretty re- replicable study of as a man, imagine your woman sleeping with another man, but not being emotionally intimate or being emotionally intimate with another man and not sleeping with him, and for the woman, imagine the same. And men typically say, "Well, I'd rather that she said she loved him, but didn't fuck him." And for women, they said, "Well, I'd rather that he fucked her, but didn't say that he loved her."

    14. MM

      Mm.

    15. CW

      At least that's one of the... And when you combine these two worlds together, I thought, "Huh, there seems to be something interesting there." So what do you reckon?

    16. MM

      Well, I think, I think there definitely is something interesting. And I think what's interesting, I- I- I'm going to agree with everything you've said-... and just add the ultimate lens. So this is, this is all quite proximate. It's about the feelings. But the asymmetry in feelings is also reflecting an asymmetry in costs and benefits at the evolutionary level. So while a man can have multiple women who are pregnant by him at one time, a woman can only be pregnant by one man at a time. And so there's a much more powerful evolutionary benefit to sexual variety, as I, as you're well aware of.

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MM

      Um, but then there's also a greater risk of cuckoldry, right? There's, there's no chance of a woman accidentally raising a child that is not hers, right?

    19. CW

      Mm.

    20. MM

      That's just not the sort of (overlapping dialogue)

    21. CW

      No woman has ever given birth to a child that wasn't hers.

    22. MM

      Yeah, (laughs) exactly. And that's not something that's occasioned by ... Well, I, I mean, I guess technically with, with modern technology, but it's not something that's occasioned by infidelity.

    23. CW

      Oh, yeah. That's true. You ... Yeah, yeah.

    24. MM

      The, the, the, the surrogate, the surrogate scenario. But that's, but it's, it's neither here nor there for the, for the purposes of our, our discussion. So there's an asymmetry at the evolutionary level that buttresses this asymmetry at the proximate level, and it's interesting. I mean, what I've been trying to get my head around since that voice note, that I'd actually like to hear your opinion on, is given both the proximate and the ultimate levels, what sort of man would we expect to benefit most from true non-monogamy, and what sort of women would we be- would expect to benefit most? Um, my am I intuition on the women's side would be, you know, highly committed partner who doesn't have the conventional cues to physical attractiveness that can get passed on.

    25. CW

      Mm.

    26. MM

      Um, but, uh, but I, I wanted to-

    27. CW

      Hang on. So explain that for me. You think that the woman would be in a relationship with a guy that is non-typical in terms of attractiveness?

    28. MM

      I would say that which women would benefit most from non-monogamy-

    29. CW

      Uh-huh.

    30. MM

      ... and which men would benefit most from non-monogamy.

Episode duration: 2:41:35

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode oOIEIEXH_f4

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome