Modern WisdomThe Case Against Condoms & Fake Friendship - Rick Glassman (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,020 words- 0:00 – 11:01
Knowing Where to Set Boundaries
- CWChris Williamson
I'm cosplaying as you.
- RGRick Glassman
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
What do we think? How do you, how do you rank my look?
- RGRick Glassman
I would wear it.
- CWChris Williamson
Nailed it.
- RGRick Glassman
And I was flattered, 'cause we don't really know each other, but you said, like, "Are you gonna wear a nice jumper?" And I'm like, "That's kind of my thing."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, of course it is. You seem like a very cozy guy.
- RGRick Glassman
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
If I could describe you in a single word, based on five minutes of interaction-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... and watching some stuff on the internet, it would be cozy.
- RGRick Glassman
I like to wear things that I could sleep in, but I also know that sometimes if you show up someplace wearing something that-- sometimes you wear something someplace, and people feel offended based on what you're wearing. And it's like, I, okay. Um, so let me just find some really cool clothes that I could trick you into thinking is, "Oh, look it, I could wear this to the big dance"-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
" -but also I could go home and sleep in it."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. No, I, I optimize for comfort as well. Mine leans a little bit to sportswear-y, which there's not really much that you can do to kind of elevate sport. If you're going out for a dinner or whatever, and you're in a, like, a Lululemon fucking T-shirt or something, y- you're a little bit, you're struggling.
- RGRick Glassman
When you wear sports clothes, you're not wearing something to elevate the clothes. You're wearing clothes to elevate the body-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
-and you have a body for it. I've been saying it for weeks. But you have a body-
- CWChris Williamson
Trust me
- RGRick Glassman
... that shows the veins.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh.
- RGRick Glassman
So.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, this, I could get away with this. I feel like, uh, it's like a cup of cocoa, like both hands.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Holding it with both hands. It's very important.
- RGRick Glassman
Another way I think of that is, like, if this were a rom-com in the early 2000s, and you would be a beautiful woman, and you would, you would be wearing that, but you would be... It would be like this. Yeah, and I would think you were ugly as shit until you took your glasses off.
- CWChris Williamson
And I'd have my, I'd have my glasses down here.
- RGRick Glassman
Oh, you're ugly!
- CWChris Williamson
My hair's up in a bun, and I'd like, pull them like this and go-
- RGRick Glassman
Oh-ho-ho, yeah, then you get a, can I say boner?
- 11:01 – 20:30
Should We Ask More Questions?
- RGRick Glassman
game.
- CWChris Williamson
I like the, uh, assessment of sort of why are we doing this thing?
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And what is the reason that this particular interaction's go: "How are you feeling right now?" Like, that's a fucking wonderful question. Like, how are you feeling?
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah. You know-
- CWChris Williamson
Not, how are you doing? Like, how are you feeling?
- RGRick Glassman
Um, I, I would like to, uh, take that and raise you-
- CWChris Williamson
[chuckles]
- RGRick Glassman
... a telling somebody how you're feeling. "Hey, I'm, I'm, I'm comfortable. It's just a little cold. Could we-- How are you?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
Like, I think also... 'Cause I ask people, I ask people-- I mean, I feel this way with dates. I talked about this in my act now, so I don't wanna, like, do too much about it. But, like, for the longest time, I wouldn't-- I have so many fears of going in for a first kiss, and they're not even that they're not gonna ki- wanna kiss me back or that they won't kiss me. My big fear is, what if I go in to kiss somebody, and they kiss me back because it's easier?
- CWChris Williamson
Pity.
- RGRick Glassman
E- not even pity, just not wanting to be un- I mean, maybe, but, like, n- I, I think more realistically, it's 'cause I guess maybe I don't see myself as somebody who people pity, but, like, "Uh, it was easier just to, mm, go like this."... like, just I'll kiss him. It's not that big of a deal.
- CWChris Williamson
But what is the motivation that you fear? What would be the ultimate- what's at the core of that?
- RGRick Glassman
It's the, it's the same thing of people when people say, "Ah, how you doing?" "Good, thanks. How are you?"
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RGRick Glassman
Are, are you interested, and are you good? It's fine. It's just a, it's just a call and response.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a procedural kiss.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah, it's like, "Oh, you know, we went on a couple of dates. I'll, you know, what-" It, it's easier to kiss somebody and then just say, "Have a good night," for some people, than it is to be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, I don't want to-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RGRick Glassman
... set a boundary, say how I feel."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
I take things at-- I used to take things at face value until I realized that I, I can't, and now I don't know when I can, so I'm just skeptical all the time. And like, so the only way I feel that I get enough information is to ask so many questions. Um, uh, "When we kissed, it wasn't a long kiss. Um, I kinda wanted to kiss you more, but I don't know if you wanted to make out. I'm not asking you to make out with me right now. But, like, if later on, if we're kissing a little , then do you find, like, is it okay if we make out?" You know, and some people might be like: "What the fuck are you saying to me?" You know, and some people were raised by The Simpsons.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. [laughing]
- RGRick Glassman
And when you are able to ask a lot of questions, and that they like that-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RGRick Glassman
... then they ask questions. Oh, my thank you for... I was dating a girl who-- I hate spoilers. I hate spoil- if I know I'm gonna see something, I don't even want to see the trailer. And sometimes people give spoilers, and they don't realize what they're spoiling. "I'm not, I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying at the end, I was a little confused." Well, now I know, you know, the dreidel doesn't stop spinning. Like, what- don't tell me anything. So we're watching a show that she had already seen the first couple episodes, and she says something that I don't think she realizes. Now I know something. This is what I do, okay? I know he's a bad guy now. I- the stakes weren't that high, but I'm still like, you know, if you're watching a sporting event, "Fuck!" You know, something happens, you get upset. Like: "Are you okay?" "No, it's fine. I just... They missed the big bucket," or whatever the hell. I reacted quite passionately. She-
- CWChris Williamson
How many dates in was this?
- RGRick Glassman
I mean, we've been dating for over a year.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, okay.
- 20:30 – 32:50
The Beauty of Being Honest About Who You Are
- CWChris Williamson
That's a very quick, uh, alchemization of that lesson. Uh, I've learned that people don't necessarily see me or the world the way that I see them-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... or the world. And again, you can try to change yourself in one way. Like, I'll make sure that everybody else is okay before I continue to do this thing, or you can do the other one, which is I'm just going to become comfortable with being corrected by people and try and sort of proactively seek as much correction as-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... possible by instigating it and also by picking friends who don't even need me to instigate it. They're like, "Hey, Rick, shut the fuck up, dude. Like, dude, let's just chill out," or-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... "It's whatever, but it's whatever." They, they're your, um, guidance system.
- RGRick Glassman
They're also... It's those-- It's not just me picking them; it's the people that are okay with me, so they're also picking me, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Because anybody that wasn't okay with that wouldn't be able to-
- RGRick Glassman
I'm too much for them or not enough for whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
It wouldn't last long.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah. I found that, that valuing the information of, "You're being too loud," or this or whatever, as information, not as, as, as criticism, really is a great cheat to kind of like surpass the ego of like, if someone says I'm being too loud, I don't think, "Oh, I must be too loud. I'm a loud person." No, I'm not! You know, and then it's like you're debating yourself, but when somebody says you're being loud, what they're saying is for, for their ears, this is an uncomfortable volume. I can't dispute that. That has nothing to do with me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
The only thing that has to do with me is what I choose to do with that information. I very, very much seek that, um, not just the information, but to surround myself with people who are generous enough to offer it. The-- I think a simple analogy, I've said this on my podcast before, but is like, when somebody says you have a booger in your nose, you're like, "Oh, I want to be around this person."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
I might not be happy that there's been a booger in my nose-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RGRick Glassman
... but I'll be happier than looking at it later and seeing that it's been there the whole time, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
No, I like-
- RGRick Glassman
Um
- CWChris Williamson
... this, this question of, um, self-deception. Are we aware of why we do the things that we do? And then we want to understand somebody else because maybe we want to connect with them, or we want to be better person ourselves. It's like, "You broke up with me. Can you tell me why? Before you leave, on your way, b- when, before you get the black bag, can you tell me why you broke up with me? Like, what was the-
- RGRick Glassman
I would prefer if you let me know why before you decided to break up with me.
- CWChris Williamson
That would be preferable, but, you know, we've-- this is, that's not the scene. The scene is that they've got the black bags out.
- RGRick Glassman
I'm just arguing that this person probably won't be able to tell me why.
- CWChris Williamson
Because they, uh, they-
- RGRick Glassman
They would've-- I would've known by now.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm, maybe, but perhaps they had, uh, they didn't feel like they had the permission to do it. Perhaps they were scared. It was a them thing, not a you thing. How about that?
- RGRick Glassman
Okay, deal. [chuckles] Question for you: I've got a little out of... I, like, I, I, I wasn't present with you for, like, uh, uh, thirty seconds. I heard you, but, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- RGRick Glassman
... when I moved like this, I was aware. Are we able to-- How's our focus? Are we-- Is this annoying if I'm doing here and here?
- 32:50 – 44:40
The Tension Between Self-Love and Growth
- CWChris Williamson
Um, yeah, you've got this great line, uh, "The self-love movement is beautiful and necessary, but not at the expense of growth." And I think that, that, um-
- RGRick Glassman
There's a research guy over here.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, look, I t- uh, wee-
- RGRick Glassman
It's a new clip. It was on a clip. It wasn't a deep dive.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's interesting that in my world, where I come from, the insecure overachiever, hustle grindset kind of background-
- RGRick Glassman
Insecure overachiever, does that mean you're overachieving because you're insecure of where you're at?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
Well, congrats.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can build-
- RGRick Glassman
Now we're now recording at Disneyland.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, you can build, you can build big shit as somebody that just desperately wants to be liked by people. Um, but that, that side of the balance board requires more of the self-love stuff. It's like, hey, dude, fucking y- let me give you this idea. It's called productivity, uh, productivity debt. So every morning you wake up believing that you're already overdrawn with your day's production, and only if you absolutely flawlessly nail your entire day's work-
- RGRick Glassman
What is overdrawn? Like you have too much to do?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, that there is some sort of cosmic karmic debt that you need to repay in terms of output productively, and only if you do lots and lots of work that day-
- RGRick Glassman
I see
- CWChris Williamson
... will you claw yourself back up to, at best, zero.
- RGRick Glassman
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Not one or ten or a hundred, but you start at minus some number, and whatever that number is, is the exact number of as much work as you can do today flawlessly. And if you take too much time off, you realize, "I finished the day on minus two-"
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... like or minus five or minus ten or whatever. Um, that's kind of the side of the world, I think, that drawn to some of the stuff that, uh, I have talked about in the past, although that's morphing somewhat and has morphed over maybe the last sort of two years. Uh, but we spent a lot of time talking about life hacks and, and, and self-improvement and training and so on and so forth, and that's great, and I loved it, right? Personal growth's been fucking wonderful for me. Um, but you can sort of go too far on that. You know those, um, balance board things? It's like a skateboard deck, and there's sort of a cylinder below it, and you can imagine that you're standing on it, and you're always sort of doing this.
- RGRick Glassman
A teeter-totter?
- CWChris Williamson
Is that what that's called?
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, teeter-totter. Thank you.
- RGRick Glassman
Skate... That's, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
British.
- RGRick Glassman
That's what you're talking about, right? You're sitting on, and then you... Like, if we were on one right now, I would go like this.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, no, no, no, no, that would be a seesaw. So imagine a skateboard deck, and imagine just a, a, like a-
- RGRick Glassman
What's the difference between a teeter-totter and a seesaw?
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's the same thing. It's just the British version.
- RGRick Glassman
No, it's a joke.
- 44:40 – 53:55
Why People Pleasers Are Only Pleasing Themselves
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You do know that you're kind of the inversion of most people's self-work, right? That you having to learn not to say what the thing is. It's like, well, to be honest, like I sort of woke up with a sty in my eye, and I've got this conversation to do later on today-
- RGRick Glassman
What's the opposite with that, that you're saying?
- CWChris Williamson
Good, thanks. How are you? Right, you, it's-- from what you're saying to me, it sounds like your set point is: I don't do small talk. I, struggling intensely with small talk and the social mores and the typical dance that most people do in the elevator or with the dog is one that I am having to consciously teach myself to do-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... to understand that these are the mannerisms of just, like, normal human shallow communication.
- RGRick Glassman
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Most people have to do the opposite.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
They have to de-train that stuff.
- RGRick Glassman
Well, a kid does that. That's, uh, it's like, um, it's like a child.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
Like a child, you say, "Please." You know, you have to condition-
- CWChris Williamson
No!
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah. Well, then we're not gonna, you know, we're not gonna go to the strip club or whatever. You know, like, you have to teach kids to do stuff, and there's pros and cons to that. A lot of people say, "I love kids because they'll just tell, tell you the truth." Um, I don't believe that telling the truth is an excuse to be unkind. Uh, there's definitely tact to that, but, like, not telling the truth because you're afraid of how somebody might receive you, I think is a very selfish act. I think that when people say things like... Well, you know, some people will diagnose themselves as a people pleaser, and they've allowed themselves to believe because of the term, that what they're doing is pleasing the other person. But what I think that they're doing is, that's what you do.
- CWChris Williamson
No, no, no, the-- I was, what you're going to say is they're pleasing themselves.
- RGRick Glassman
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Protecting themselves.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah, I, I want to make sure that, that this person doesn't see me in a bad way, as opposed to allowing them to see me as I, as I am.
- CWChris Williamson
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- RGRick Glassman
It's making sure that they're okay with you.
- CWChris Williamson
To make sure that they're okay, so that you can be okay.
- RGRick Glassman
And, and I think a great, uh, a great test of that would be, "Hey, I don't want to tell him that he has a booger in his nose. That's not my job. Maybe the person who does his, his makeup will." And when the makeup person tells you, I'm not thinking like: "Oh, no, I'm sorry." I'm thinking: "I'm glad they said it."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
So it's not the information that you're receiving that's gonna not please you. It's, I'm the one who's delivering it, and again, there's tact to this. Sometimes I don't owe everybody my truth. I don't need to tell you everything. I have found through originally a lack of awareness and then through making jokes, that, oh, there are ways of maybe delivering things to where it's more palatable. I don't know how you're going to receive this information. I don't want to make my choice based on how you're going to receive it. I want to make my choice based on, do I think this is valuable information for this person? And the only guiding star I have for that is, would I want to know that?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
If I would want to know that, but there it goes again, where I also want to, "Hey, I want to leave my hat here," or I, like, I want to set boundaries.
- CWChris Williamson
Also, you're not representative of everybody else. Would you want to know that? Yes, but if you are as non-fungible as it might seem-... you're, you can't use your theory-
- RGRick Glassman
That's really
- CWChris Williamson
-of mind to be, "Well, I would want it, therefore, they..." And it's like, yeah, but you're not them, and they're not you.
- RGRick Glassman
I, I think at a certain point with us being imperfect humans, there are just ways of calibrating yourself to, like, you could only police so many things.
- 53:55 – 1:06:06
Is Farting Actually Funny?
- CWChris Williamson
upset?" Two, two interesting ideas on that. Um, the same friend whose mum, uh, s- stops fight- fights in the middle of the street.
- RGRick Glassman
Who makes a whatever flan.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, makes an acceptable flan. Uh, he asked me at his 30th birthday last year, he said, um, "Who's your best friend in the world?" I was like, "Bit of a weird question after age, like, 12."
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and he said, "Okay, let me reframe it for you. Who can you sit with in silence without the need to fill it, and who can you speak to with the least amount of filter?" I was like, "Ooh-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... that's cool." Like, both ends of communication, both silence and talking, which of those feel, uh, the most unencumbered, like, the most frictionless? Just sit in fucking silence next to each other on a train, not even reading or using our phones or whatever, and not feel the need to-
- RGRick Glassman
That's the, that's, that's a direct analogy to the not having sex with somebody until you feel safe enough to be able to tell them, "I have performance anxiety." You know what I mean? That's a, that's a more insecure example of it. But yeah, it's- what you're saying is, who's your best friend is a hard thing to answer, but who do you feel safest with isn't. And-
- CWChris Williamson
Right
- RGRick Glassman
... that's, I mean, I know I've said this as jokes, but that's really, and I don't mean this directly literally, but like people who grew up watching The Simpsons-... it's not just watching The Simpsons-
- CWChris Williamson
One long ad read for the-
- RGRick Glassman
But really, really, I, I, I, really there's two things, there's two, like, tests. You don't need to pass either of them, but it's valuable information. And it's not just people that watch The Simpsons, it's people that chose to.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RGRick Glassman
They like this type of humor. People that think farting is funny, and people who watch The Simpsons, I think are genuinely nice, innocent people.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RGRick Glassman
Um, when people don't think farting is funny, there may be is some trauma. I know that there, there are-
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing]
- RGRick Glassman
I have, I have some, some female friends that have, uh, uh, issues with the way that their mom receives them, and they better- they need to be beautiful-
- CWChris Williamson
Crimson Propper
- RGRick Glassman
... they need to be, they need to be a certain thing that the mother believes is what makes a woman. Bummer, pun not intended.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing]
- RGRick Glassman
However, when you think it's just gross or whatever, and yeah, of course, it's gross. I'm not saying, "Do you think farting is something that you want me to be doing on your face all the time?" I'm asking you if you think it's funny, and if you don't think it's funny, I know that we're not compatible. I know it. I know it.
- CWChris Williamson
You're saying that the tip of the spear of your-
- RGRick Glassman
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... social Venn diagram crossing over is Simpsons and funny farting?
- RGRick Glassman
You know what? To be a little bit more fair, you don't have to think farting is funny. I want... I've never, I've never been in a-- and this wasn't a conscious choice, I've never been in a relationship with somebody who didn't laugh at farts. I don't think that's a coincidence. But it's not that you don't think farting is funny, as much as if you think farting is gross. Like, if we're sitting around, and I have to go to the bathroom to fart, I'll get 40,000 steps a day. You know, what do you want me-
- CWChris Williamson
You a big farter?
- RGRick Glassman
Who isn't?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I, I, uh, I guess it depends what your baseline for big farting is.
- RGRick Glassman
Exactly, and whatever your baseline is, come on over. Just change your clothes and sit on a blanket.
- 1:06:06 – 1:15:21
Are You Brave Enough to Admit What You Want?
- CWChris Williamson
it's fine. Um, I want to tell you a story about Jon Bellion. Do you know who that is?
- RGRick Glassman
The name sounds familiar, but no.
- CWChris Williamson
Musician, recording artist, producer behind Justin Bieber and Rihanna, like Ed Sheeran, gazillion plays, like billions and billions and billions of plays. I had him on the show in New York. He told me this story about his son. It made me think when you were talking, like, this is why kids are great because kids don't have the filter.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And I think, uh, some of the things that I'm, like, hearing and feeling from our conversation today is, uh, is this, uh, balance between, um, growth and self-acceptance, between being true to yourself and, uh, helping somebody... Like, being kind, like, being nice to somebody, which doesn't always mean necessarily telling them what they want to hear. Kids kind of sit interestingly, like, skewed off to one side, where they do very much tell the truth but can also, like-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... and the innocence allows them to get away with more, which is interesting, 'cause I wonder whether if we mo- all of us spoke more like kids, we would be able to get away with more.
- RGRick Glassman
I think there's something about tr- it's, it's a projection of the innocence and the intention. I've- I have misophonia, and when people are chewing, it, it sounds.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RGRick Glassman
Sounds, it drives me fucking nuts.
- CWChris Williamson
The sound of eating.
- RGRick Glassman
W- when a dog is doing it, for some reason, not only am I okay with it, I love it, and I, I don't know-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, don't you, you like them licking butt holes as well?
- RGRick Glassman
Uh, he was licking his penis in The Sound of It. That was a Christian Bale episode, I-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RGRick Glassman
Did you see?
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RGRick Glassman
He was licking his penis, and there was something about that sound where it's just so cute to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
... when a human licks his penis, I just, you know, why am I watching this?
- CWChris Williamson
Why, why is Marilyn Manson in my bedroom?
- RGRick Glassman
Isn't that funny? I've talked about that recently, too, that fake rumor that everyone thought he took out a rib-
- CWChris Williamson
Rib
- RGRick Glassman
... so he could blow himself.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I haven't thought-
- RGRick Glassman
Everybody around the fucking world knew that!
- CWChris Williamson
I haven't thought about that for a decade. I'm so glad that we're on this, we're tapped into the astral realm this second.
- RGRick Glassman
And that was pre-COVID.
- CWChris Williamson
[chuckles] That was pre-COVID. Yeah, imagine how much fun you would have had. A quick aside, you've probably heard about PFAS, the forever chemicals that are in your non-stick pans and food packaging and drinking water, and probably your testicles. Studies say they might be linked to hormone disruption, infertility, and even cancer. In fact, ninety-seven percent of Americans have detectable levels of PFAS in their blood right now, and probably their testicles. Good news, Function just introduced PFAS testing as an add-on for members on top of the over a hundred biomarkers that they already track twice a year: hormones, heart levels, nutrient levels. They now look at the microplastics in your testicles. It's a way to go even deeper into your health, giving you the option to see if these forever chemicals are quietly accumulating at harmful levels in your testicles. Normally, getting this level of insight would cost thousands of dollars with private clinics. With Function, it's just four hundred and ninety-nine bucks a year, and everything is reviewed by a physician with clear, actionable steps to improve your health. Right now, you can get another hundred bucks off, bring it down to three hundred and ninety-nine dollars. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save a hundred dollars by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom to save your testicles. Um, so John does this show. He does two stadium shows in Long Island. Uh, he doesn't tour for five or six years, comes back, writes this album, and, uh, has dedicated his life to his family now, whilst also still doing the producer thing, but he's not been front-facing. And people come over to his house so that he has his l- limited time away from his family and his kids, whilst also, like, living his dream and doing his thing as possible. So he's curated his life around his family and decides to do two stadium shows. I think it's on back-to-back nights. He only rehearses for three days-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm
- 1:15:21 – 1:25:50
The Right Way to Approach Someone New
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, yeah, I think it, there is a, there is definitely an asymmetry. It's interesting that, um, like-
- RGRick Glassman
So I didn't wanna a- approach Huberman like a woman.
- CWChris Williamson
Under... Well, that one might have worked.
- RGRick Glassman
I've been a fan of his, uh, uh, I, I don't wanna call it a fan. I've been... I mean, yes, but I've been listening before he- not even listening, like, reading his stuff. My, my ex, who, who lives in London, I spent a lot of time in London, love being in London, uh, she turned me on to Huberman, I think, in 2019. And there's, like, so many things that are now just like... I, I just used to go out in the sunlight in the mornings. Like, I know that's, like, a big trope at this point, but, like, 'cause of that, there were so many things, um, uh, uh, learning about histamines and, uh, uh, and nightshades, and there were so many thing... And I'm just like, this is a guy that has now gotten really successful for, for having a, a- an audience appreciate his, his knowledge. So I'm like: I really like this guy. You know what I'm saying? So it's like seeing a, a girl that you really like, where it's like, I don't wanna just... I don't know. I, I feel like it's not appropriate here. I'm not saying I'm right.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, there's a nice amount, there's a nice amount of reverence there. You're like: "Oh, I'm gonna treat this one properly." I mean, you know this, a- and for the girls out there, uh, I would wager fewer relationships start if you have sex on the first date than if you have sex on the fourth date or the 10th date or something like that.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That, um, giving it up too quickly and sort of being too fast too soon, uh, is indicative of how much you care about the relationship overall.
- RGRick Glassman
Do you think that's a direct, like, that's a literal, uh, statistic?
- CWChris Williamson
I would be-
- RGRick Glassman
'Cause I agree, but sometimes no- like-
- CWChris Williamson
I, I just get the sense that there's a few dynamics at play here. Uh, first one, we tend-
- RGRick Glassman
Biological
- CWChris Williamson
... we tend to value things that are difficult to get-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... more. Uh, secondly, the time from meeting to getting physically intimate with somebody is usually, if you wait longer, what it suggests is that is not all that you're here for.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, just those two. We don't even need to go deeper than that. Like, that's enough to carry this dynamic through, I think, to... It would-
- RGRick Glassman
I
- CWChris Williamson
... probably appear in data.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah. The, my last three relationships were, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Poked them on the first date?
- RGRick Glassman
No, uh, w- well, yeah, but there's, there is, um, uh, there's more information, which is we... It was long distance, and we were FaceTiming for months.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RGRick Glassman
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, yeah
- RGRick Glassman
... so the first time we smelt each other and actually were in the same room-
- CWChris Williamson
But you've spoken for 50 hours at this point, however.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah. And I've learned that I like, like, I, even if it's lo- like we're in town, I'm not scared to go on a date. But let's say you and I don't know if we'd want to podcast with each other. We could find out by doing a podcast, or we could FaceTime for a little bit and see if, like, we're, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
We vibe
- RGRick Glassman
... if you think farting is funny-
- 1:25:50 – 1:29:20
The Power of Reverse Charisma
- RGRick Glassman
to me?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, here's one way to do it. In fact, let me give you this little essay, which is pretty cool. So, ah, Jenny Jerome, who was-
- RGRick Glassman
Mr. and Mrs. Jerome's kid.
- CWChris Williamson
Winston Churchill's mother. Ah, she once dined with both Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli and his rival, William Gladstone, on consecutive nights. When asked about her impressions of the two men, she said, "When I left the dining room after sitting next to Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England. But when I sat next to Disraeli, I left feeling like I was the cleverest woman."
- RGRick Glassman
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Some people are interesting, some people make people feel interesting.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the difference between being interesting and interested, and this idea I came up with of reverse charisma. Like, most people think that they want their stories to be energizing, their aura to be electric or whatever, but what you actually want, and what I find myself being around more than even that, someone who comes in and is, "Ha!" Like fucking jazz hands-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... is, "Wow! Like, I really feel fucking seen here." And maybe this is part of the connection, maybe it's the frequency thing that you're talking about, but if somebody-
- RGRick Glassman
Why do you see, see- feel seen when somebody comes in doing jazz hands?
- CWChris Williamson
No, no, no, no, I don't... My point is, somebody that comes-
- RGRick Glassman
You prefer.
- CWChris Williamson
No. Somebody that comes in and has this very electric aura, uh, it maybe is, as you said, ah, less boring, out there-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... lots of stories, all the rest of it, like whirlwind of social-
- RGRick Glassman
Doesn't leave you feeling seen.
- CWChris Williamson
But that's fine, and I like being around those people, but that, the skill set to be able to be that sort of a person, to have that kind of charisma, for want of a better word, I think is, ah, typically quite high. And maybe that was what, ah, triggered the person who left that comment, saying, "Well, some people are just boring." Maybe they thought that they are that kind of person.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm a little bit lower energy. I'm a little bit more thoughtful. I'm a bit more shy. I'm a bit more whatever.
- RGRick Glassman
Thoughtful isn't boring.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, but if you don't say much, right? Let's say you just don't get the words out that quickly, or you don't think that quickly when it comes to, like, telling whatever. Um, if somebody feels that, if somebody feels like they might be boring-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... and they're worried that they are, I mean, one thing is to go and have some life experiences and become a little bit more confident with your communication, all the rest of it, and that's great, and you should do that too. But a much quicker route to making people feel comfortable around you and to connecting with people, is to just get really good at asking questions, and that, the bar for that, I think, is significantly lower. So if you ask the question, like, "How did that make you feel?"
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Or why, or what did you mean by that?" Like, as somebody is telling a story, if they're even, like, remotely compelled by what they're talking about, that is them away for ages. Now, you, as the question asker, now have to deal with whether or not that person's interesting to you. And again, this is the compatibility. But if you're someone who thinks like, "Ah, fuck," like, "I wish I was more, like, socially competent," or, "I wish that people... I seem to like people, but I struggle to contribute to the conversation in a way, and I'm worried that I don't have much to talk about."
- RGRick Glassman
That right there, that awareness of what they maybe think is a shortcoming, is your, is your superpower. So if somebody doesn't know what to say, so they just don't say anything, maybe that is boring. And I use boring as a blanketed statement. I know it's blanket, but, but if you're, "Hey, guys, I'm, uh, you're all so charismatic, and I feel like I have no idea what to say," I am so invested now. I'm int- like, "What do you mean? I didn't even realize this. What are you feeling?" "I don't know. You guys are doing jokes, and I feel like I'm not saying anything." "Oh, fuck! Should we all be quiet?" You know, like-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- RGRick Glassman
... "Should we put on our sunglasses? We could find a game
- 1:29:20 – 1:35:01
Breaking Through the Confines of the Game
- RGRick Glassman
together."
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting that you've got-- So what you keep doing, the, the strategy that you keep going for, is calling out the game. So have you ever read, um, Escaping Flatland? It's a book from, like, 1850 or so. It sounds niche as fuck, but you, you might have heard of it.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah, the, the, the book from 1850?
- CWChris Williamson
It, but it's, it's super famous. It's, it's a, um, a book about a two-dimensional world.
- RGRick Glassman
Man, you know so many things.
- CWChris Williamson
I-
- RGRick Glassman
I guess it's your job now.
- CWChris Williamson
I've just spoken to thousands of people-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and I'm at the end of a thousand-person human centipede.
- RGRick Glassman
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
So, like, what I've got left is nutritionally very non-dense, but there was lots of it. [chuckles] Um-
- RGRick Glassman
Great. Great analogy.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so-
- RGRick Glassman
It's actually my shirt.
- CWChris Williamson
[laughing]
- RGRick Glassman
Sorry, I messed up the momentum. Go on.
- CWChris Williamson
The end, uh, this book is about a two-dimensional world, Flatland, uh, and a three-dimensional sphere comes down to Flatland.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And this sphere is a circle, and the circle is able to make itself grow and shrink inside of Flatland, and the citizens are amazed. What they don't understand is that this sphere is moving itself through a dimension that they can't see.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah. It's not getting bigger or smaller, it's just getting closer and further away.
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly, exactly. What you're doing, at least what it sounds like to me, your preference in terms of conversation style is, or what you would like to see more from some people, and your advice is, again, like we said, with the game of tennis, is to almost say, "Well, why are we using the racket? Why can't we use our feet?"
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Or does the net need to be there at all? Or can we leave the stadium? Like, or can we hit the... Why don't we hit the ball straight up as opposed to across the net to each other?" You're moving on a dimension that is not within the confines of the game. I think w- what I'm comparing with myself is, I tend to try and, um, achieve the same thing that you do, but within the confines of the game. I think I have less bravery socially for calling out that sort of stuff-
- RGRick Glassman
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... than you do. So what I would do, and this is from a decade and a half of running nightclubs, standing in the front door of nightclubs, like, there is a particular sort of game that needs to be done. You need to do it really, really, really quick. So I need to keep it within this, but like, ah, this person's, like, too drunk, so I need to come up with a way to play the game, but also get them to realize they're not fucking coming in.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Or to, uh, get them downstairs before the door staff see, so that we can get their five pounds off them, even though they are too drunk to come in, or whatever it is that we're doing, right? As a part of that, what I like and what I find fun as a game is to see whether or not I can get the movement of the conversation for the shy person to feel more included, or for the, uh, extroverted person to shut the fuck up, or for the funny person to be more funny or whatever.... within the rules of the game. And I think that that's the challenge, maybe because of a, a insufficient social bravery to break the rule of the game and go and become the sphere sort of growing and, and shrinking, or just, I don't know, preference or whatever. But I, I'm thinking like, "Huh, how much do I do what Rick's saying he does here? How much do I, like, punk the game or call out the game? Like, how much do I say what's going on versus try and get the outcome that he's trying to get, but within the confines of the game?" And I think typically I do, I do the latter.
- RGRick Glassman
I wanna talk about this for, for a while.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- 1:35:01 – 1:39:01
The Fastest Ways to Look Uncool
- CWChris Williamson
Can we discuss a list of things I have that is some of the most difficult to do whilst looking dignified?
- RGRick Glassman
Yes, and after that, I want one of us to remember to go back to talk about the game thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Game thing. Um, picking up a moving ping pong ball.
- RGRick Glassman
You know what?
- CWChris Williamson
Very difficult to do with dignity. Like, if I throw a ping pong ball over there, and I'm like: "Rick, would you grab that for me, please?" And you're like, "Eh,"-
- RGRick Glassman
Oh
- CWChris Williamson
... you stumble after it.
- RGRick Glassman
You're not an athlete.
- CWChris Williamson
Starting a stopped bicycle.
- RGRick Glassman
I get it.
- CWChris Williamson
Turning around, ever.
- RGRick Glassman
Eating, uh, a little bag of cereal with your hands.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, yes. Uh, trying to consume soup that's too hot.
- RGRick Glassman
On the opposite end, um, eating from an ice cream cone that's melting.
- CWChris Williamson
And you gotta move real quick and get around the sides. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're like Bonnie Blue. Um... [chuckles]
- RGRick Glassman
You're out.
- CWChris Williamson
Working how... Working out how to sleep inside of a blanket in a room that is, uh, too hot while you're too cold, or while it, that is too cold while you're too hot. You're like: "Okay, do I go arms under and just poke my head out like a little mummy, or do I take my arms out and then pull it back down?"
- RGRick Glassman
Huh, that's making me think of being in a bedroom, uh, making love to somebody and then going into the bathroom while they're still in bed if you have a small ass.
- CWChris Williamson
If you have a small ass?
- RGRick Glassman
Yes, I have a small ass. So whenever I walk to a bathroom, I either have to moonwalk back, so they see my big, rock-hard cock-
- CWChris Williamson
Okay
- RGRick Glassman
... or I have to say, "I have a little ass. Don't look at me!"
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it still hard?
- RGRick Glassman
Well, it was hard, but still, it's, it's, it's I guess it's not hard.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
Which is also, by the way, I used to be very embarra-- of course, it's embarrassing to be seen naked. I mean, it's a vulnerable thing, but if I'm gonna be intimate with somebody, and they see me soft, that's fine. It's gonna happen. Uh, you, I... If a woman ever sees my penis soft before hard, I am humiliated.
- CWChris Williamson
It's okay to have gone from, like, grower to shower, but not from, like, the soft to hard. It's like, okay, if, as long as you've seen the Statue of Liberty as it's meant to be-
- RGRick Glassman
It's almost as if, it's almost as if I think that she thinks when she sees my penis soft, she thinks, "Is that his penis when it's hard?"
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RGRick Glassman
Okay, so, so-
- 1:39:01 – 1:49:01
Why We Don’t Want to Acknowledge the Rules of the Conversation
- RGRick Glassman
The idea of, uh... And if you have any, call them out.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RGRick Glassman
But the idea of, of, of the rules to the game, uh, and setting up, setting them up, I think that that is, that is literally getting on the same page with somebody.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RGRick Glassman
So we could get on the same page by just kind of maneuvering and seeing if we could figure it out. But w- w- what's the... In the pro- list of pros and cons, what's the con of you saying, "Wait, hold on a second, I'm confused with this," or, "Hold on a second, it seems like you and I are on the same page"? We have to-- You have to serve it to the opposite end of the court. Like, what, what's, what's the con for not wanting to do that?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. The con for not wanting to... Well, I'd-- The con for doing it is easier to make the case of, um, just that you have to-
- RGRick Glassman
That's what I meant. That's what I meant, yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... break the flow of the conversation in order to be able to talk about the conversation. And typically, for some people, that feels a little bit uncomfortable.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Which you must see-
- RGRick Glassman
So you're cannibalizing the momentum.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, of course. We're back and forth, and we're back and forth, and we're doing the thing, and it's like: Hey, no, stop. And I think my point around where are the rules of the-
- RGRick Glassman
Right
- CWChris Williamson
... conversation sport written and the fact that they aren't, I think what I'm-- The reason that I feel more comfortable, and I feel like most people would feel more comfortable talking about the rules of pickleball than they would the rules of the conversation, in whatever form you think that that exists-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... is legitimacy. Because someone somewhere knows there's a fucking ancient scroll that's got the pickleball rules written on it. Uh-
- RGRick Glassman
Well, there's an ancient scroll that says you're supposed to say, "Good thanks, how are you?"
- CWChris Williamson
But is there? No, I don't think there is, not in the same way, because it's unconstrained. Uh, here's another one. Let me give you this one, which I love as an e-
- RGRick Glassman
Okay
- CWChris Williamson
... as an, as an example. Your capacity at pickleball is not judged as being close to your sense of self.
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm not saying... And for a professional pickleball player or somebody who is a, a insecure overachiever, maybe you do feel like your performance in pickleball at the local pickleball league determines your self-worth. But most people would say, if you made some error in the game of pickleball by stepping into the kitchen, that doesn't mean that you are bad or that you are lesser.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah, and I think what a bummer that if you make an error and you say... Oh, he was an Indian guy, by the way, and you're like: "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have said that." "Oh, that you're a bad pickleball player."
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RGRick Glassman
Like-
- CWChris Williamson
He's a great pickleball player.
- RGRick Glassman
No, no.
- CWChris Williamson
He's number two in the world.
- RGRick Glassman
No, I'm s- I'm, I'm, I'm being s- sincere. I'm saying that, like, if you do something bad in pickleball, it's not gonna affect your self-worth-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- 1:49:01 – 2:03:02
How Rick Deals With Flakiness
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
No, I, so I, I, to kind of bring it into land or to put a bow on the, the, the conversation thing, um, mm, the reason that I liked the inverse charisma idea-
- RGRick Glassman
Which is getting people to believe that they're interesting
- CWChris Williamson
... Yeah, by being good at asking questions-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... is that, um, assuming that s- probably some significant cohort of people that that is pretty useful to are maybe a bit shy or a little bit more introverted or not super confident. I think that you can go from, uh, shy and introverted, to being good at asking questions, to maybe being interesting at telling stories. I think that the black belt level of this is doing what you're doing and saying, "Why don't we call out the game itself?" I think the amount of bravery that's needed, typically, in a social situation, to be like, "I'm feeling a bit bored at the moment. Anybody else feeling a bit bored? Why can't we- we- why don't we talk about something else?" or whatever, especially one-on-one with somebody-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, that requires a leapfrog of-... uh, bravery that I think most people would struggle to get to.
- RGRick Glassman
You're doing reverse charisma right now.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- RGRick Glassman
By telling me what I'm doing is black belt.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah.
- RGRick Glassman
You're making me feel like I'm good at something.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh-huh.
- RGRick Glassman
However, I think what other people do is the harder thing. I'm not doing the hard thing because why not? I think not acknowledging the thing is where I'm uncomfortable, and if I wanted-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RGRick Glassman
... to challenge myself, and I have done this. Uh, I have a story. Maybe I'll even tell you about this if there's time and you're interested, but this just happened, and I had to call a friend that was like a sponsor for... I was going on a date with this girl, and she kept pushing the time back, which- and I-
- CWChris Williamson
The same day?
- RGRick Glassman
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Tell the story.
- RGRick Glassman
Uh, okay. Um, so there's this c- woman that, um, we've never met, but we follow- we followed each other on social media for years. Um, uh, at any given time, if we're both single, there's maybe some mild flirtation, and then there's not. So, like, we don't know anything other than our projections of what they post, right? I go, uh, to a city, I'm being vague on purpose. Um, I go to a city, and she... I'm doing shows there, and she wants to come to the show. Now, um, I'm only doing two shows, and some cities' tickets sell well, some not so much. These were sold out, and I happened to have, uh, saved a guest list of tickets, and I have two tickets saved for her, and I don't know what show she wants to go to, so I save two for both. Friends wanted to come, p- people that sell... Whatever, i- it's not that big of a deal. Like, I, I, I could give these tickets away. If I don't, I don't. Whatever. Um, so she was coming to the first show, but I still saved the second show because who knows what happens? Um, the day before the first show, uh, she didn't tell me. I checked in saying, "Hey, um, do you, uh, you know, here's the place if you, if you're coming," blah, blah, blah. "I'm so sorry, I have to... I'm out of town. I'm working," ah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, "but, um, uh, I wanna come to the other show." And then the day before that show, she messaged me and goes, "Hey, is it possible I get two tickets, so I could bring a friend?" I said, "I already have two tickets for you." My friend who comes with me, who's, who, who opens the show, he has some friends in town. He asks if they could have, uh... Is there any way we could get tickets? I don't- I only have these two tickets, and I'm, I'm giving them to somebody else. Not that big of a deal, but whatever. I got a text after the show that 15 minutes after I went on, "Hey, sorry, I can't make it." It happens. It does. It would've been nice if you told me before the show. I could have given these tickets away. It's just... It's not necessarily a red flag, but it is something that I, I was disappointed, and it happens. "I really wanna see you, though, um," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So we plan this day. I'm doing these things this day. I'm free at this time. I tell her that. She tells me where she lives, blah, blah, blah. My assumption, and I'm aware it was my assumption, my assumption was I said, "I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm done at this time. I'm free at 5:" that since she didn't say, "I can't do 5," we were gonna meet at 5. Um, when I finished my thing at 4 something, I messaged to, like, make some plans. She goes, "Hey, I'm da, da, da, da, da, da, da. I'm gonna take a shower. Let's meet at 7:30. Let's meet at 7." So in my head, I'm like, yeah, I made the assumption 5, great. There's shows in town that I could do. A friend invited me to dinner that I can't go to, because I'm, I'm going on this date with this girl. Um, 7:04 comes, because, oh, uh, she said she was gonna pick a place because I didn't know. I, I said, "I, I understand it's, it's very masculine for a person to pick a place. I found these things. If you like them, let's do them. If not, I would love a little bit of help here. Where should we go?" Uh, 7:04, and I'm saying it's 7:04 because in my head, I'm like, I'm waiting for her to message me, but I also don't wanna gamify this. I'm, i- I didn't get the information. She's not a great texter, at least not yet. Um, I don't- at 7:04, we're, "Hey, where... You know, did you figure out a place yet?" At 7:30, she said, "I'm so sorry, I'm running a little bit behind. Can we make it 8:30?" I'm now thinking to myself, f- I... We said 5:00 to 7:00 to 8:30, but we have to take the 5:00 off the table. That was my assumption. But why don't we split the difference, the tickets that I couldn't give away? It's just, I'm like, "What are we doing here?" So I'm already now feeling, once we move it to 8:30, I'm feeling like my ego doesn't even wanna meet this person anymore. Um, it is what it is. At, at 8:30, um, at 8:30, not before 8:30, at 8:30, she said, "Hey, I'm sorry I'm running late. C- uh, can we... Uh, I wanna make it 9:00. If you don't wanna meet... Now, if it's too late, I understand, but I still really wanna meet you."
- CWChris Williamson
You don't want to meet.
- RGRick Glassman
It wasn't that. I, I could look it up. It was basically what I received it was her feeling bad that she pushed it back, um, while also not, not conceding that she didn't make this a priority. Not this being me, this being her commitments. Um, "And if it's too late, I understand," giving me an out, but letting me know, "I still really wanna see you." I'm now like, I, I could have gone to dinner. I mean, if we made it at 9:30, I could have, you know? Um, and I wrote... I'm now thinking like, "Okay, if she comes, comes..." And, and by the way, the plan where we were gonna meet was now, um, she said, "I, I'll come..." She was gonna come to my hotel. This... Literally, it's an awesome hotel with a fun lounge downstairs. There's no, in my mind, assumption or, or th- there's nothing hookup about this. It's just, she's now gonna come to me for convenience, I guess. And I'm thinking to myself, uh, "There's no way I'm gonna be able to say nice to meet you and not call out the game."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
"This is fucking na-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
Da, da, da, da, and she... The, the tickets and the this.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
So I, I wrote a letter, a, a letter, I mean a text, but a letter. Um, I actually kinda wanna read it, and maybe this is embarrassing. I didn't send it.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, great.
- 2:03:02 – 2:13:26
The Ecstasy of Being Included
- CWChris Williamson
It's a little bit like, uh, being a porn star and getting to have sex. Like, they, I mean, they might want to do this, but they wouldn't be doing this if we weren't at work. Like, they're doing it because all of the cameras are here.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So but I get the simulacrum of like, we're friends for like 90 minutes or two hours, we're friends, and-
- RGRick Glassman
And I get to fi- I get to ask you questions that I've wanted to ask you.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
And I feel like-
- CWChris Williamson
And you have to answer them, kind of.
- RGRick Glassman
I- y- y- you g- yeah, I mean, or otherwise, like, you know, I'll ask you different.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
But yeah, there is this feeling like I, I, I both love who I am and feel like, "Why wouldn't you wanna be friends with me?" I also have this thing, like I told you, I didn't really have friends as a kid, and I didn't even recognize it. I didn't feel unincluded, but I was, and I didn't... Meaning, I didn't recognize what being included means until I started playing basketball. And like, these people are forced to be my friends, but they also, we have the same goals.
- CWChris Williamson
Porn star, podcast guest-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... basketball team.
- RGRick Glassman
So that still exists for me. It still exists for me where, like, I, I've become friends-- Do you know who Lisa Gilroy is?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- RGRick Glassman
I think she's one of the funniest people in the world. She's been on my podcast a bunch now. She's an improviser and an actress, and she's unbelievably funny. She comes over, and when she comes over, I, and I've said this to her, I, like, it feels like I'm so glad we're friends. Like, you wanna be friends with me, right? The way we play with each other.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
There's this feeling of like when people wanna be friends with me, and I know it, where it's not like, "Oh, finally, somebody likes me." It's not... It's, it doesn't, uh, remove a negative that exists. It's just this thing of like, fucking I have, like, it's cr- having friends is crazy! Having friends is... Like, you wanna play, and being around a person that you're physically attracted to is another thing. It's like, this is fucking aw- I love fucking looking at you. It feels so good to look- you wanna kiss me? You wanna kiss me. It's just, I'm not like, "Why would you wanna kiss me?" But I am so glad that you w- you wanna... Like, d- d- uh, when I was in s- school, when friends would go, sometimes friends would go over to other friends, and everyone knows that because they had a pa- a, a, a, a, a note that the s- that the moms, both moms or parents send, or guardians, and the school agrees to that, "You're going on their bus." So like, when th- so, like, you know this kid's going on this kid's bus, so you know after school they're gonna go and be friends with each other. And I was always like, "Fucking that's crazy. All day you know he's coming on your bus." I still have that feeling, and it, it isn't exclusive to attractive people, but it is ex- it does feel it's all very high school-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- RGRick Glassman
... like, the, the, the varsity team or the pretty people-
- CWChris Williamson
Status games
- RGRick Glassman
... or the funny people.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool people, rich people, interesting people.
- RGRick Glassman
Oh, interesting. I never thought about rich people, but I can see how that's a thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I g- a- anybody that has anything that other people want.
- RGRick Glassman
That's, that's the value thing. If somebody can make me laugh-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- RGRick Glassman
... or like, if you're a awesome basketball player.
- CWChris Williamson
But the, that's the, uh, how would you say? Like, more shallow, transactional-
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah
- 2:13:26 – 2:25:00
How to Engineer a Top Podcast
- CWChris Williamson
Rick, let's bring it home. Bro, I, I've, uh, I've really been looking forward to meeting you. Uh, I've been- I actually had a question for you, uh, which was w- why... Well, I guess you explained it earlier on, that you feel you learn something, and sometimes it's interesting, even if it's not quite in your wheelhouse. Uh, but I was surprised that you were a, uh-
- RGRick Glassman
[chuckles]
- CWChris Williamson
... fan of the show. I didn't think that it was slap bang in the, the middle of the, the bullseye of what you would be into. Uh, but then actually, I, I mean, I, I've had a lot of conversations with people that on the surface I think would have been like, "Oh, well, obviously, these, like, the- these two people make sense."
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And today's been, like, so much fucking fun.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I found it very, very cozy, actually, to be honest, and like very intimate.
- RGRick Glassman
Sweaters.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
- RGRick Glassman
Um, I don't know you asked me, but I have an answer-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- RGRick Glassman
... for, um, watching your stuff. One-... um, as a, and I don't mean this term derogatory, but as a performer, like you are a performer. I'm not saying you're- it's disingenuous, but I mean, like, as somebody who is in front of cameras, literally looking straight to the camera and saying stuff, you're aware of you're doing this with a purpose for people to consume it, right? Um, there are some performers that I feel like I believe you, and some I don't. And not believing somebody isn't a bad thing. Like, I know Robert Downey Jr. isn't Iron Man, but I could still buy into it. You know what I mean? Like, that's a-- he's doing a certain type of performance. So on one thing, I believe you. I believe that you want to be saying what you're saying, and also by design of what your show is, it seems like you're, like, you're documenting your growth, whether it's literally how many subscribers you have or how many people shit before it got into your mouth. You are just like, you're learning, and that's, like, part of the context of this. So I just connect with that because it's like, maybe you have something that will benefit me, you know, like, like the perspective of inclusion, which maybe somebody has said to me before, and it just didn't clock at the right time. Um, and then you have guests on that, um, that are like... that have points of view. So, like, the combination of a point of view that I might share and might not share, opposite somebody who I believe that since I'm not in the room to call somebody out or to ask a curiosity, I believe that the person who's there is gonna do it the best that person can. And, um, I just think it's an attractive show. It is, and I mean, it's liter- visually, it is too, but, like, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's stuff that helps that doesn't feel like I'm watching a self-help. Not that there's anything wrong with watching self-help, but it's just people talking about, "You know what I've noticed?" And like, you did notice it. [chuckles] You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RGRick Glassman
Like, "Oh, here's something you actually noticed."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RGRick Glassman
Let me listen. I think you have a great show, dude.
- CWChris Williamson
Thank you.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's really kind. I really fucking love yours as well. I think that the, uh, way that it makes me feel, most importantly, it's not what I take away, it's like the way that it makes me feel, and like, I don't know why this is the word of the day is cozy. Maybe it is like jumper vibes.
- RGRick Glassman
Nice.
- CWChris Williamson
And the, the, the, the, um, bio, the little, little description-
- RGRick Glassman
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... that you've got of it, and the-
- RGRick Glassman
I actually remember that. I wrote that, like, when I first started the podcast.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I, uh, I- I think I'm a boy or I'm a silly boy or something-
- RGRick Glassman
[chuckles] Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... like that in that. And, um, yeah, the, the little illustration that comes across, like, he's a little cute. He's, like, po- poking out behind the side.
- RGRick Glassman
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, to me, it's like, oh, fuck! Like, it feels like I can just, uh... It's like Sunday afternoon shit for me, and that's, like, very, very nice.
- RGRick Glassman
I, I, I, by design, uh, having a studio would benefit for a lot of different logistical reasons, but by design, I want to do it in my living room. I also-- when people come over and they want to have their publicists, like, people who I w- don't know who I am, and I would love to have them on, I say no, and, uh, y- nobody else can be in the room. And it's just you're in my living room, and I want to feel like you're in my living room. And I do think there's a coziness to it that maybe that's a coincidence that you said it, maybe not, but that is, like, a tone of this show where maybe I'll be funny, maybe I won't. But as long as we could both be comfortable and, like, show up as we are now-
Episode duration: 2:28:10
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