Modern WisdomThe Case For Eating Better Meat - Diana Rodgers | Modern Wisdom Podcast 244
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
90 min read · 18,236 words- 0:00 – 15:00
People are very confused.…
- DRDiana Rodgers
People are very confused. They're very confused about our health, very concerned about our planet. Everyone's looking for that one magic goji berry that they can take so that they can avoid actually doing the hard work of eating well every single day and sleeping well every single night. They don't wanna work out, they just wanna eat a goji berry and be done with it. And so, it's much easier to pin all of our uncomfortable feelings on an object than it is to actually deal with the actual problems. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
Diana, welcome to the show.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Hi. Nice to have, uh, nice, nice to have me. Nice to be here. Thank you so much, Chris.
- CWChris Williamson
It is nice to have you.
- DRDiana Rodgers
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, your work is at the intersection of nutrition, environmental sustainability, animal welfare, and social justice. That is, that's just, all of those are minefields, and everyone's emotionally charged. Like, that's an incredibly harsh war zone to exist in.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm. That's right. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) That's the- the look- the look- the look of a P- PTSD, battle-scarred, uh, soldier there.
- DRDiana Rodgers
(laughs) Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of people will say, uh, you know, "Eating meat is wrong. Killing animals is wrong," right? But you can't have an ethical discussion until you understand the nutritional benefits that animal products have to humans, especially people that don't have the privilege to be pushing that away, which gets into social justice. We can't be telling the entire world that everyone needs to, uh, be vegetarian when there are so many people that are nutrient deficient and malnourished. Um, and then when we, you know, look at the environmental consequences of a food system without animal inputs, that looks a whole lot like chemical agriculture, which is a huge problem, right? And so, when we, when we look at, you know, chemical agriculture, plant-based-only foods, those two things are the recipe for fake meat, uh, you know, absolute destruction, um, of our soil health, ecosystem health, and human health. So, uh, I try to tackle all of those things because they're all so intricately twined, and so I want people to understand all of those things before we have a discussion about whether or not it's okay for an animal to die for us to live.
- CWChris Williamson
There's s- some entry prices that you need to pay before we can get to just the ethical question-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... because it's layered within other, uh, other topics. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What does a, a, a real food licensed registered dietician nutritionist mean? What- what's that?
- DRDiana Rodgers
It's my own, um, uh, term, but basically, most dieticians are, um, giving out information that they've learned in school where, you know, everything in moderation is okay. Let's not eliminate any foods from the plate. It's all about just portions, and, um, and if you wanna go vegetarian or vegan, then, you know, that's totally okay. But then when we start to talk about eliminating processed foods, "Oh, no. We can't do that." So, um, you know, so something like a Whole30, paleo, keto type diet is absolute blasphemy, right? But then vegan or vegetarian are- are totally okay. Um, and so I call myself a real food dietician because I focus on real foods, and work largely with people to fix their gut health and their metabolic health, their weight by getting rid of ultra-processed foods.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you. You've got a new film which will be out almost exactly 22nd of November, uh, which is probably not far off when this is gonna go live. So, can you give us- give us an overview of it?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah. So, I have a book and film. Uh, the book came out in the summer, um, of this past year, Sacred Cow, and the film, uh, took just a little bit, uh, more time to edit. I wanted them to line up perfectly, but it just wasn't gonna happen that way. Um, (clears throat) so the film, I actually did some filming in the UK. I went to n- the Lake District and filmed with James Rebanks, who is sort of a celebrity shepherd there. And, uh, and he has a new book out actually as well. Um, so we went there. We went to a lot of other farms and other food producers, nutrition experts, and really put together, uh, as detailed as we could, um, in one hour and 20 minutes. Um, so the book goes, obviously, much more into detail, but we're just trying to explain why meat is actually not the main cause of diabetes, obesity, and heart disease, why nutrition studies are completely based on observational research and not, um... They can't prove cause. So, all those studies talking about, uh, meat causing health problems are really based on just, "Look. Oh, look. This population ate meat and this one didn't. Oh, it must have been the meat," when there's just so many other confounding factors involved there. So, humans have been eating meat for three and a half million years, and, uh, it's much more likely, as Zoe Harcombe says in our book, that modern foods are responsible for modern illnesses. Um, we also talk about the environmental case for raising, uh, animals in a way that more closely mirrors nature, and, uh, we dive in and out of the ethics argument throughout the film. So, where the book is very, um, scientific and linear, and just tackles one argument at the time, um, that would make a- probably a very boring film. And so, uh, so I worked with some really smart writers and editors that were able to take all of the footage that I shot and, um, t- turn that into a really awesome film.
- CWChris Williamson
That's awesome. I- I always think this whenever anyone talks about the correlation and causation of stuff they do in their life, like m- m- my mum.... even today, said something about this new magnesium supplement that I've been taking. She says, "So- so how is it affecting your sleep?" I'm like, "I don't know." Like I- it- it needs to have such an unbelievable impact itself for me to be able to work it out in amongst the chaos of everything else that's going on. And as you hit upon there, like someone that does or doesn't eat meat is probably going to correlate with them doing or not doing a whole bunch of other stuff. All that it is-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is essentially a selection variable. And that selection variable will probably be correlated with other selection variables. They're more likely to cycle to work, they're more likely to be left-handed and- and single and vote Democrat and do a blah- You know what I mean? Like it's a whole host-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of other things.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Right, so when they've done studies adjusting for those things, they found absolutely no benefit at all in, um, eliminating meat from the diet. So- and what we do know is that people who don't eat meat, especially vegans, um, uh, much higher rates of nutrient deficiencies or insufficiencies, and, um, that can express itself in mental health as well as in physical health.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the particular studies that brought that to light? The one that's obviously been controlled for multivariate analysis?
- DRDiana Rodgers
So, mm-hmm. There was one that, uh, looked at people who only shopped at health food stores. So then you've got the people who are more likely- You know, they- they tend to have a similar lifestyle, right? They're more likely to cycle to work or-
- CWChris Williamson
Do CrossFit.
- DRDiana Rodgers
... do yoga.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, they're less likely to be heavy smokers and drinkers, things like that. Um, so of the population that shopped at health food stores, there was absolutely no difference in longevity between meat eaters and, uh, vegetarians. And then there was a very large study out of Australia, so it was about almost 70,000 people, and it took- um, it- it- it looked at all of the- the meat versus no meat and adjusted for all of the lifestyle variables that they could, and again, found no benefit at all.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow, so meat eaters and vegans live the same amount of time?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Well, vegetarians.
- CWChris Williamson
But-
- 15:00 – 30:00
Mm-hmm. …
- CWChris Williamson
a- an easy one as you go to bed. Um, I know that you have done your research especially for the book and also subsequently for the film, I wanna close one of the doors to hell that we've left ajar there about the methane argument.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What is the contribution of livestock to, uh, greenhouse gases and greenhouse gas effect, please?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Okay. So there's, there's a couple different ways you have to understand it, so this is a little bit longer than, um, than you might-
- CWChris Williamson
An answer.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah, right.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- DRDiana Rodgers
It... No big deal is, is the fast answer. Um, so two things. One is methane through biogenic sources needs to be viewed completely differently than from fossil fuel extraction. So, um, I have an animation in the film and an infographic about this on my Instagram feed, um, and available on my website, but basically we show the molecules being breathed out by a cow, so it's not cow farts actually, it's, um, belching from cows that's the methane.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's cow burps that cause methane?
- DRDiana Rodgers
It's cow burps. Well, that cause... The- It's the bacteria in their stomachs that's causing, um, the methane, right? So they're breaking down, um, very fibrous materials in an anaerobic way which produces methane, okay? So m- almost all of the food that those cows would eat if they weren't eating it would just sit in a pile and emit greenhouse gases if we didn't turn it into protein, right? So we just have to sort of talk about that. The grass is still gonna be there. Um, so when the cow breathes out methane it goes up into the atmosphere, it lasts for about 10 years and then it gets broken down into H2O which is water which becomes part of the water cycle which is rain, and then CO2 which is taken up by the plants again and, uh, they breathe, they respire oxygen which is what we breathe in, and then the carbon goes down into the ground, it, uh, feeds the microbes underground, the carbon becomes the grass, that's what it is, the cow eats the carbon, um, and it goes back into their digestive cycle, some of that carbon turns into meat that we eat, some of it turns into poop that, uh, fertilizes the ground again. So it's all these molecules are working in... If you could just picture the swirl of bubbles, that's, that's what a biogenic cycle is, okay? And there aren't really more cattle than there were wild ruminants before we sort of took over and got rid of it. So we don't have more belching animals, um, than we did when we had like the bison, uh, in, in the, you know, 1500s before we went and killed them all, right? Um, so when we talk about fossil fuels, that is a one-way street. So we're extracting ancient, ancient carbon and methane that's been locked in the Earth's core for millions of years and we're pumping it straight up into the atmosphere, so it's not really circulating in the same way that the methane from a cow is being, uh, burped out.... so does that make sense? So it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it does. Surely the- the methane-
- DRDiana Rodgers
... like a one- oh, go ahead.
- CWChris Williamson
The methane from both will break down at the same rate though, right? 10- 10 years or so.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah, yeah. It's not, it's different. It's not that it's gonna be treated differently, but because there's no balance to the fossil fuel equation, it just gets used and- and blown into the atmosphere. It's extra carbon, right? So if you picture like, if you were to picture one of those little, um, ecosphere glass things, you know, what I'm talking about? What are they called?
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, bios- biosphere, is it?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Ecosphere. Biosphere, right. It would be like the fossil fuels were pumping in extra gases into that, right? Because they're being extracted not from the biogenic natural cycles that are already happening in there. It's from like way locked away carbon that, you know, is outside of that biosphere that then we're gonna be pumping in and it's too much.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm blown away.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Does that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
The- the main breathtaking takeaway from today is that it comes from cow burps, not cow farts, like that-
- DRDiana Rodgers
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that's just totally taken- and there's something about that as well. Like, even just in that little example, I think it shows that there's something less icky or something more icky about it being a fart that goes into the air and slightly less icky about it being a burp. I don't- I don't know where I feel about that. So you- you said-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... about the-
- DRDiana Rodgers
But there's, and then there's a little more to the story too. So I can-
- CWChris Williamson
Tell us.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Let me, uh, so, um, just as far as the emissions go, like worldwide, when the, when we're talking about numbers and you're hearing that, you know, livestock are worse than the entire transportation sector because that's like a common thing that people say, that is actually completely not true either. So globally, cattle, uh, livestock in general contribute about 5% of all, um, greenhouse gases. But again, it's part of a cycle. Um, transportation, energy production, all of that is the lion's share of, uh, greenhouse gas emissions. And when you were, if you were to look at global warming trends, uh, and CO₂ concentrations rising, it is lockstep with the industrial revolution and the transportation industry taking off. So, um, it- it, you know, we don't... Cattle are not the cause in any way of- of, uh, all the problems we have in the environment. Now, um, there are different ways to raise them. Concentrated manure is a problem, um, feedlots can be not great places for cattle to be, although the- they don't spend their entire lives on feedlots. They're only there for the last few months of their lives. Uh, so all cattle for beef start on grass. Um, guess what? The UK is really good at producing grass. Um, and I, you know, I've- I've been there. I- it's, um, especially when you go north, you don't have a whole lot of vegetable production happening, right? Like, there's just... You have to import most of the vegetables that- that are coming there, especially in the winter. And, um, but the great thing is grazing animals thrive in, you know, lush green pastures, which, um, you know, is the ideal place for, uh, you know, them to be and not cropping.
- CWChris Williamson
Got you. So we've talked about meat being a scapegoat. Who is it that wins when meat gets vilified?
- DRDiana Rodgers
So, the fossil fuel industry loves that all of the attention is on cow farts and not on gasoline and- and fossil fuels and s- and, uh, and all of that, right? So they love this. Um, also the ultra-processed food industry loves it because it gives them a pass. So instead of potato chips and, um, you know, junk food being the problem, it's just meat, right? So- so if you could just eat something that's meat-free, then you're fine, right? It's just sort of like in the '80s and '90s when it was fat-free, it was fine, when we know that that was completely ridiculous. Um, and so, you know, the- the biggest winners though are the Beyond Meat, Impossible Foods and all the money that's going right now into, um, the production of lab-grown meats. So, uh, there's big money, there's, you know, lots of stocks, lots of hopes placed on these alternatives. Um, and I looked up the price of Beyond Meat, and one of those burger patties is actually twice as expensive as organic grass-fed beef here in the US. Um, but it's being pushed as something that's, you know, cleaner nutritionally, better for the environment, and oh, no animals died. Um, but what we point out in the film, in the book is that there is no food system where no animals die. That's impossible because even in the production of your pea proteins or your soy or your wheat, tons of animals have to die in order for that to be grown. So if you then can understand that no animals die, uh, I mean, that there is no animal, that there is no deathless system, uh, sorry, that was a hard one to get out, then- then the only solution is to make sure that the death that happened for your food was done well, right? Um, and so one large ruminant, like a cow can provide 500 pounds of meat. When, if you were to equate a mammal to a mammal, so if a mouse's life, if a death to a mouse is as traumatic as a death to a cow, you know, if those two things are equal, then clearly the solution, if you're trying to live a diet of least harm, would be to eat a cow because so many rodents are killed in the production of grains and, um, and other, you know, plant-based proteins.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I wa- I wanna loop back to the philosophical discussion, the ethical side of this in a little bit. I have a- a good friend, Alex O'Connor, who is a- a big vegan philosopher coming out of Oxford. And I literally was speaking to him earlier on today. So I, I have a couple of things that he mentioned to me. But you've highlighted something that's quite interesting there, which is, um, the...... polarity that most people would expect when they hear, "This is a book about meat," is this is a book about not veganism. And it seems to me th- that you're primarily opposed to processed foods rather than people who eat whole foods that are slightly different. Is that right? And i- is the meat-eater versus plant-eater debate making us take our eye off the ball?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah, so I- I mean, it's, it's, we're arguing about the wrong thing. Um, it's not meat versus no meat, and, um, I'm all for people to have their own choice when it comes to what they feed themselves. Um, as a mother and dietician, I do have a problem with people not, uh, allowing children to eat meat because that can cause some serious problems, and we've seen in the literature-
- 30:00 – 45:00
Eat more protein and…
- DRDiana Rodgers
all age groups are getting less than even the RDA of protein right now. Um, and so my recommendation is to at least start at 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is almost nobody walks into my nutrition practice even eating the RDA of protein, you know, and then wondering why they're so hungry all the time and tired and why they can't lose weight. And the magical thing about upping someone's protein, especially from animal sources, is they lose weight, they have more energy, they're full all day long. Protein is the most satiating macronutrient. Um, and here in America, we're only eating about two ounces of beef per person per day. So that's not like-... these, you know, massive tomahawk steaks every single night. But, but that's what the perception is, uh, we're clearly eating too much meat. And again, that's based on an environmental, "I feel like we're eating too much meat." And what that really means is, "I don't like what feedlots look like. It's gross. I think we should stop them and, you know, do something different." That's, that's what is actually, like if you could do, like a thought bubble over someone's head, that's what they're thinking. Um, we're eating way more chicken than we ever have before, and chicken is less nutrient-dense than beef. And we're also eating twice as much processed foods as we did in the 1970s. And so, we've seen our obesity and, uh, diabetes rates soar because of this. We're eating less meat than ever, uh, th- than 1970. Um, and again and again, when I increase someone's meat intake and I tell them, like, "Okay. Why don't you..." I'll take a 160-pound woman that wants to lose weight and I'll say, "Okay. How about you try eating 130 grams of protein a day?" They can't even do it. They, they're so full and they think it's so wrong, you know? But that's, that's what works. That's, that's my, like magical ticket now. Nobody has to come see me as a dietician, because that's like pretty much what I charge people to do. Guess what? You need more protein. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Eat more protein and so do you, and so do you. Right, everybody come in here-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... we're gonna have a mega church sermon. Everybody here needs some more protein. Yeah, um, I mean, anyone who's ever tried to hit two grams per kilo of body weight, who is-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Oh my God.
- CWChris Williamson
... like un- untrained or unused to it, um-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's, it's challenging. Like no one, nobody accidentally eats two grams per kilo of body weight of protein. You c- you would have to be just an, uh, unbelievable, like ridiculous portion control person.
- DRDiana Rodgers
You can't.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it would be insane, and, uh, therefore, we heavily rely on supplements. So what is, or what are some of your best pieces of advice for someone who needs to get more protein in? You've just identified there-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you say, "160-pound woman, 130 grams of protein. I can't get it in." What are, (laughs) what are some of the ways that... (laughs)
- DRDiana Rodgers
(laughs) Stop laughing.
- CWChris Williamson
No. No, you laughed at, "I can't get it in" first, and now, and then I saw you laughing and now I'm laughing. (sighs)
- DRDiana Rodgers
Okay. I'm changing (bleep) breakfast.
- CWChris Williamson
How can we, how can people eat...
- DRDiana Rodgers
Breakfast. Breakfast is the number one way to get. So if we can get at least just 30 grams of p- of animal sourced food, animal sourced protein in at breakfast, that really sets the metabolism and sets your, um, appetite for the whole rest of the day. So, um, and surprisingly eggs are so low in protein. Everyone's like, "Well, I hate eggs." And I'm like, "Well, who said you have to eat eggs for breakfast?"
- CWChris Williamson
Eggs, breakfast.
- DRDiana Rodgers
But they think that that's the rule, right? That's, that's, that's, the egg and cereal industry telling us that breakfast cereals and eggs are what you eat for breakfast. So this morning for breakfast I had some meatballs, I think, and then for lunch I just had like a big piece of, um, of fish, uh, with some vegetables on the side. So I'm not telling people not to eat vegetables. I'm just saying if you, if weight is an issue for you, or if you don't wanna gain weight, which most of us don't, um, or if you wanna put on some muscle, or if you wanna have more energy, then consider increasing your protein and it's a lot easier. Usually people are not eating enough protein in the morning, um, with breakfast. So it's easier to think of, you know, maybe eating like six ounces of, um, steak or pork or chicken or something, or fish with lunch or dinner, but for some reason with breakfast people are thinking, "Oh, just want a little piece of toast," and you know, no. You need, you know, that's the worst thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Other than, other than meatballs, what ev- what else can we do on a morning? 'Cause I, I, you know-
- DRDiana Rodgers
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the, it's, I'm, I'm a fan of meatballs but I can't see me having it every morning for breakfast.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah. Sausages, um, leftover steak from the night before. Um, I'll make eggs but I'll put a ton of ham in them, um, a little bit of cheddar cheese. That's a good source of protein too. Um, I'll, I eat fish a lot, um, and, or some people like, um, you know, just sliced turkey with, you know, like in a lettuce wrap for breakfast with a little bit of pesto or something. There's, there's so many ways to get it in. I mean, it's just real- really meal one, not breakfast.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- DRDiana Rodgers
So if you think meal one, meal two, meal three, um, it doesn't have to be, you know, eggs and bacon or, as, as your only like meat-based breakfast option.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. That fits for me as well. I tend to go fasted until around about midday, just I don't like training on a full stomach and I tend to train in the morning.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So for me, I, I'll then like kind of condense that afternoon down. So that very much is kind of like, like early lunch, late lunch, nearly dinner, early dinner, dinner, bed. Like so-
- DRDiana Rodgers
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... the, the, uh, it is meal one, two, three, four. Um, what about meat and cancer? Doesn't increating, in- increasing our meat consumption increase our risk of cancer?
- 45:00 – 52:25
Do you think that's…
- DRDiana Rodgers
And, um, so as a clinician, I've used it with patients, um, with amazing success. With, um, binge eaters sometimes, just restricting it all the way down to just meat so they have no other decision is really actually quite helpful. Amazingly. Um, uh, and I've seen so many more binge eaters during COVID than I've ever seen before. Um, so why use-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that's just people comforting themselves with food?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah, I mean, binge eating tends to be something that comes out of, uh, people feeling that they don't have control. And I think it's really hard to feel like you have control over anything during this time.
- CWChris Williamson
During a pandemic, yeah.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah. So, uh, and then also, I mean, just... if you have an emotional, um, issue with food, a distorted relationship with food, having 24/7 access to your refrigerator is not a good thing, right?
- CWChris Williamson
I saw this-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Humans-
- CWChris Williamson
I s- I saw this meme at the beginning of the summer that said, uh, and it was a, a note posted inside of the fridge, and it said, "You're not hungry, you're just fucking bored."
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually had a... I saw another cartoon saying that, um, the fridge was sentient-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- DRDiana Rodgers
... because it's calling your name, you know. Um, so no other animal has to go around saying, "Oh, I've had enough. I can't possibly eat. I better stop eating all those coconuts." You know? Like, all animals are wired to seek out food, um, as diverse as possible. Um, so that's called optimum foraging strategies. An awesome paper written about that. Um, so humans are wired to, you know, eat some of these berries, but then you kinda get a little, like, full on those. But then there's always room for those berries, right? Because those ones are... uh, they have different nutrients in them. Um, but... so when we're confronted with all these nutrient-poor processed foods that stimulate us to overeat, we have no off switch for them. It's very easy to see why people are overweight. Um, and it's really not their fault. It's, it's we've engineered ourselves into a really disturbing relationship with food.
- CWChris Williamson
The arms race is incredibly unfair. I learned the word aurification at the beginning of this year, which I think is the design of the texture of foods.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And one of the examples, or a couple of the examples that were given, is that, um, ancestrally, it would be very rare for us to come across a food which had multiple textures in it.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you get a bunch of berries, they're kind of slimy. You get some kale, it's also kind of slimy. You get some meat, it's kind of like a little bit more tough and chewy. And you get something that's been out in the sun and it's dry and crispy or whatever. Um, but if you look at most foods that are really weaponized for overeating, like fries or Oreos, there is a contrast to the texture, crispy on the outside and fluffy and light on the inside.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that helps to bypass, obviously, a- another one of them is the balance between carbohydrates and fat-
- DRDiana Rodgers
And fat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that tends to be in there as well, which is why cheesecake is such a bastard.
- DRDiana Rodgers
Oh, it's my favorite. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Because you've got this... you've got the buttery biscuit base, and then you've got the cream on top, and then you've got the, the tanginess, the sweetness of the jam, so you can... sugar and fat and then a little bit more carbs at the bottom. Like-
- DRDiana Rodgers
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... it's hard, it's hard to say no. Um, so we've, that's the stuff we shouldn't be eating. What are the rules that I can follow so that I make sure that I get good meat? I go to the supermarket tomorrow or I go shopping online tomorrow. What do I do?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Um, you know, I... i- if... there's two things. You know, one is for health, right? So there's not a massive difference, uh, in nutritional quality between a totally grass-fed steak and a steak that was finished on a feed lot. Um, and so even if you don't have a lot of money, your, your best money is spent on the more red meats than chicken or pork, um, just because nutritionally it's just a powerhouse, right? Uh, organ meats are gonna be a really good choice for you. Um, when we're... you know, local fish. Um, I love fish. I actually prefer the taste of fish to, to meat. Um, it's all just animal flesh though. I don't know why we like say-
- CWChris Williamson
E-
- DRDiana Rodgers
... like meat, fish, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Every- everyone I... You're from Boston, right? Or you're in Boston?
- DRDiana Rodgers
Uh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Um-... everyone I know from Boston absolutely adores seafood and-
Episode duration: 52:25
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