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The Case For Eating Better Meat - Diana Rodgers | Modern Wisdom Podcast 244

Diana Rodgers is a dietitian, author and a film producer. The case for veganism is often made, today we get to hear the other side of the argument. Expect to learn whether vegans or meat eaters live longer, the environmental, nutritional and ethical reasoning behind Diana's justification for eating meat, if you truly can get all your nutrients from plants and supplements, who meat has become a scapegoat for and much more... Sponsor: Get 20% discount & free shipping on your Lawnmower 3.0 at https://www.manscaped.com/ (use code MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Check out Sacred Cow - https://www.sacredcow.info/ Follow Diana on Twitter - https://twitter.com/SustainableDish Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #meat #vegan #carnivore - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Diana RodgersguestChris Williamsonhost
Nov 12, 202052mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:30

    Meat, ethics, and why nutrition/environment/social justice can’t be separated

    1. DR

      People are very confused. They're very confused about our health, very concerned about our planet. Everyone's looking for that one magic goji berry that they can take so that they can avoid actually doing the hard work of eating well every single day and sleeping well every single night. They don't wanna work out, they just wanna eat a goji berry and be done with it. And so, it's much easier to pin all of our uncomfortable feelings on an object than it is to actually deal with the actual problems. (wind blows)

    2. CW

      Diana, welcome to the show.

    3. DR

      Hi. Nice to have, uh, nice, nice to have me. Nice to be here. Thank you so much, Chris.

    4. CW

      It is nice to have you.

    5. DR

      (laughs)

    6. CW

      Um, your work is at the intersection of nutrition, environmental sustainability, animal welfare, and social justice. That is, that's just, all of those are minefields, and everyone's emotionally charged. Like, that's an incredibly harsh war zone to exist in.

    7. DR

      Mm-hmm. That's right. (laughs)

    8. CW

      (laughs) That's the- the look- the look- the look of a P- PTSD, battle-scarred, uh, soldier there.

    9. DR

      (laughs) Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, a lot of people will say, uh, you know, "Eating meat is wrong. Killing animals is wrong," right? But you can't have an ethical discussion until you understand the nutritional benefits that animal products have to humans, especially people that don't have the privilege to be pushing that away, which gets into social justice. We can't be telling the entire world that everyone needs to, uh, be vegetarian when there are so many people that are nutrient deficient and malnourished. Um, and then when we, you know, look at the environmental consequences of a food system without animal inputs, that looks a whole lot like chemical agriculture, which is a huge problem, right? And so, when we, when we look at, you know, chemical agriculture, plant-based-only foods, those two things are the recipe for fake meat, uh, you know, absolute destruction, um, of our soil health, ecosystem health, and human health. So, uh, I try to tackle all of those things because they're all so intricately twined, and so I want people to understand all of those things before we have a discussion about whether or not it's okay for an animal to die for us to live.

    10. CW

      There's s- some entry prices that you need to pay before we can get to just the ethical question-

    11. DR

      Mm-hmm.

  2. 2:30 – 3:40

    What a “real food” registered dietitian means (and why ultra-processed foods are the real enemy)

    1. CW

      ... because it's layered within other, uh, other topics. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What does a, a, a real food licensed registered dietician nutritionist mean? What- what's that?

    2. DR

      It's my own, um, uh, term, but basically, most dieticians are, um, giving out information that they've learned in school where, you know, everything in moderation is okay. Let's not eliminate any foods from the plate. It's all about just portions, and, um, and if you wanna go vegetarian or vegan, then, you know, that's totally okay. But then when we start to talk about eliminating processed foods, "Oh, no. We can't do that." So, um, you know, so something like a Whole30, paleo, keto type diet is absolute blasphemy, right? But then vegan or vegetarian are- are totally okay. Um, and so I call myself a real food dietician because I focus on real foods, and work largely with people to fix their gut health and their metabolic health, their weight by getting rid of ultra-processed foods.

  3. 3:40 – 5:54

    ‘Sacred Cow’ book + film: the central claims and why nutrition science is often misread

    1. CW

      Got you. You've got a new film which will be out almost exactly 22nd of November, uh, which is probably not far off when this is gonna go live. So, can you give us- give us an overview of it?

    2. DR

      Yeah. So, I have a book and film. Uh, the book came out in the summer, um, of this past year, Sacred Cow, and the film, uh, took just a little bit, uh, more time to edit. I wanted them to line up perfectly, but it just wasn't gonna happen that way. Um, (clears throat) so the film, I actually did some filming in the UK. I went to n- the Lake District and filmed with James Rebanks, who is sort of a celebrity shepherd there. And, uh, and he has a new book out actually as well. Um, so we went there. We went to a lot of other farms and other food producers, nutrition experts, and really put together, uh, as detailed as we could, um, in one hour and 20 minutes. Um, so the book goes, obviously, much more into detail, but we're just trying to explain why meat is actually not the main cause of diabetes, obesity, and heart disease, why nutrition studies are completely based on observational research and not, um... They can't prove cause. So, all those studies talking about, uh, meat causing health problems are really based on just, "Look. Oh, look. This population ate meat and this one didn't. Oh, it must have been the meat," when there's just so many other confounding factors involved there. So, humans have been eating meat for three and a half million years, and, uh, it's much more likely, as Zoe Harcombe says in our book, that modern foods are responsible for modern illnesses. Um, we also talk about the environmental case for raising, uh, animals in a way that more closely mirrors nature, and, uh, we dive in and out of the ethics argument throughout the film. So, where the book is very, um, scientific and linear, and just tackles one argument at the time, um, that would make a- probably a very boring film. And so, uh, so I worked with some really smart writers and editors that were able to take all of the footage that I shot and, um, t- turn that into a really awesome film.

  4. 5:54 – 8:11

    Do vegetarians live longer? Controlling for lifestyle variables and nutrient deficiency concerns

    1. CW

      That's awesome. I- I always think this whenever anyone talks about the correlation and causation of stuff they do in their life, like m- m- my mum.... even today, said something about this new magnesium supplement that I've been taking. She says, "So- so how is it affecting your sleep?" I'm like, "I don't know." Like I- it- it needs to have such an unbelievable impact itself for me to be able to work it out in amongst the chaos of everything else that's going on. And as you hit upon there, like someone that does or doesn't eat meat is probably going to correlate with them doing or not doing a whole bunch of other stuff. All that it is-

    2. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... is essentially a selection variable. And that selection variable will probably be correlated with other selection variables. They're more likely to cycle to work, they're more likely to be left-handed and- and single and vote Democrat and do a blah- You know what I mean? Like it's a whole host-

    4. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... of other things.

    6. DR

      Right, so when they've done studies adjusting for those things, they found absolutely no benefit at all in, um, eliminating meat from the diet. So- and what we do know is that people who don't eat meat, especially vegans, um, uh, much higher rates of nutrient deficiencies or insufficiencies, and, um, that can express itself in mental health as well as in physical health.

    7. CW

      What was the particular studies that brought that to light? The one that's obviously been controlled for multivariate analysis?

    8. DR

      So, mm-hmm. There was one that, uh, looked at people who only shopped at health food stores. So then you've got the people who are more likely- You know, they- they tend to have a similar lifestyle, right? They're more likely to cycle to work or-

    9. CW

      Do CrossFit.

    10. DR

      ... do yoga.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. DR

      Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, they're less likely to be heavy smokers and drinkers, things like that. Um, so of the population that shopped at health food stores, there was absolutely no difference in longevity between meat eaters and, uh, vegetarians. And then there was a very large study out of Australia, so it was about almost 70,000 people, and it took- um, it- it- it looked at all of the- the meat versus no meat and adjusted for all of the lifestyle variables that they could, and again, found no benefit at all.

    13. CW

      Wow, so meat eaters and vegans live the same amount of time?

    14. DR

      Well, vegetarians.

    15. CW

      But-

  5. 8:11 – 9:42

    Nutrients you can’t reliably get from plants: vitamin A conversion and bioavailability

    1. DR

      Vegans, we don't have a lot of data on long-lived vegans because most of them give it up within three months. Um, s- and there's never been a vegan population. Um, we've never seen the consequences of vegan babies being born to vegan mothers and then trying to reproduce themselves. Um, but we do know that there are nutrients in animal source foods that you can't get from plants, that, um, supplementing isn't always, um, adequate. Um, there's a lot of reasons why people wouldn't do well without animal source food. So for example, um, vitamin A is a good example of this. So, uh, the- the form of vitamin A that's in plant source foods is beta carotene, and when we eat something like a sweet potato or a carrot that has beta carotene, that's the orange color, our bodies need to convert that into retinol. So that's the active form of vitamin A. And about half of all humans can't do that effectively. So they-

    2. CW

      Half of- 50% of the people listening to this can't digest carrots properly?

    3. DR

      Can't- Well, they can digest carrots, but they can't necessarily g- convert all the beta carotene into vitamin A, and so could end up with a vitamin A deficiency, which, um, is not so great for your skin and your eyes. Um, those little bumps that some people have on the back of their arms is usually vitamin A deficiency. Great source of vitamin A is liver or any, uh, animal source fat usually has a lot of vitamin A.

    4. CW

      Wow. That's so interesting.

    5. DR

      Mm-hmm.

  6. 9:42 – 15:13

    Meat as cultural scapegoat: denial of death, purity hierarchies, and vegan propaganda dynamics

    1. CW

      You say that meat has become a scapegoat. What's that mean?

    2. DR

      So, um, people are very confused. They're very confused about our health, uh, very concerned about our- our planet, um, everyone's looking for that one magic goji berry that they can take so that they can avoid actually doing the hard work of eating well every single day and sleeping well every single night, right? They don't wanna work out, they just wanna eat a goji berry and be done with it, right? And so, um, it's much easier to pin all of our uncomfortable feelings on an object than it is to actually deal with the actual problems. Um, so, uh, a scapegoat is literally something that w- would be the sacrificial animal where people would put their sins on it and- and sacrifice it, right? And so, um, meat has- that was gonna be the title for the film and the book, was- was Scapegoat. And that's because, uh, you know, cow farts are ruining the environment, when that's absolutely ridiculous. It's, uh, fossil fuels, it's consumerism, it's- it's all the junk that we keep on buying, all that kinda stuff. Um, you know, the- the- the problem for our nutrition and- and, you know, growing rates of obesity is not meat eating, when, you know, you can get 30 grams of protein from 200 calories worth of steak, which has, you know, B12, which has all the essential am- amino acids. Uh, it's the- it's the most beautiful package of concentrated nutrition for humans, uh, and the most bioavailable, easily digested food we have, um, and yet it's become- You know, meat- meat represents so many things to humans. It's power and masculinity and death. It's bloody, it's strong. Um, so especially young women are easy prey for these vegan propaganda documentaries because, um, they're much more likely to feel extra uncomfortable with all of those messages. Um, so a lot of people, I'm sure you've met people, that won't eat anything on a bone, right? They don't wanna rem- They don't even wanna know, or maybe you haven't.

    3. CW

      No, they wanna detach themselves-

    4. DR

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... away from-

    6. DR

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... the- the fact that it was-

    8. DR

      So

    9. NA

      Like a-

    10. CW

      ... an animal.

    11. DR

      Right. So like boneless, skinless chicken breast, okay, because it's sort of like tofu and you don't have to like think about it having been an animal, and maybe even the idea of chickens isn't as close to a dog where a cow would be closer to a dog, which is our friend not an animal, or a child, you know, so, um, so cattle... You're cracking up. (laughs)

    12. CW

      Yeah. (laughs) It's funny.

    13. DR

      I'm not meaning to...

    14. CW

      It's funny. It's funny.

    15. DR

      Uh, anyway, so, um, so it just seems that on the totem pole of ethicalness of, of meat, of food consumption, cows are at the bottom, right? They're the absolute worst thing.

    16. CW

      Is cow, is cow the... Is cow like the rich white man of the f- the food group world?

    17. DR

      Probably, yeah. And then you, you know, then it's like chicken and fish, you know, pescetarians, or like, I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish, and so you're like slightly more pure, right? And then, you know, vegetarian would be just eggs and dairy, but then vegan, but then above that there's raw vegan and fruitarian, right, things that only fall, so you wouldn't eat anything that might have been harvested and harming things, you would only eat things that have fallen already.

    18. CW

      Okay. So that's a, that's a diet...

    19. DR

      Um, and then...

    20. CW

      That's a diet that's based on purely on gravity, the gravity diet.

    21. DR

      Well then there's gravitarian.

    22. CW

      Gravitarian.

    23. DR

      Right? Which would be, uh, if you're ultra-pure then you only need air, right? So all of this is, is absolutely ridiculous, right?

    24. CW

      Yes. Yes, it is.

    25. DR

      But even the idea that eating meat is bad when humans are biologically omnivores, when meat has been something that has been... That's why we have such large brains right now, it's because of animal source foods. And so to be so, um, disconnected from the fact that humans are animals and that there is a biologically appropriate food for us, um, and that we are, um, intertwined within a food web instead of on top of it and controlling it and dominating it is, um, is really at the heart of what I talk about, it's our, um, our denial of death. I mean, we even see it in the, in the fitness world, right, like longevity, everyone wants longevity. Um, y- you know, it, it's not even quality of life, it's just how can I live the longest, you know, how can I cheat death. Um, you know, most Americans don't have a will, we don't wanna think about death, we, we don't see it on a regular basis, and we don't accept that it's part of the cycle of life, it's not just the endpoint of everything. So I kind of get through all of that stuff in the book, more so than in the film, but in the film we talk about it too.

    26. CW

      Do you know who Sheldon Solomon is?

    27. DR

      Mm-mm.

    28. CW

      Okay. So he's an expert in Ernest Becker's Denial of Death, he was on the show, uh, a couple of weeks ago and he's-

    29. DR

      Oh, I have that book. I have... It's on my Food Politics book, uh, bookcase you were talking about earlier.

    30. CW

      Bookcase, which I didn't realize was even a topic. Yeah, um, Denial of Death-

  7. 15:13 – 21:26

    Methane and climate: biogenic vs fossil carbon and what livestock contributes

    1. CW

      What is the contribution of livestock to, uh, greenhouse gases and greenhouse gas effect, please?

    2. DR

      Okay. So there's, there's a couple different ways you have to understand it, so this is a little bit longer than, um, than you might-

    3. CW

      An answer.

    4. DR

      Yeah, right.

    5. CW

      Yeah.

    6. DR

      It... No big deal is, is the fast answer. Um, so two things. One is methane through biogenic sources needs to be viewed completely differently than from fossil fuel extraction. So, um, I have an animation in the film and an infographic about this on my Instagram feed, um, and available on my website, but basically we show the molecules being breathed out by a cow, so it's not cow farts actually, it's, um, belching from cows that's the methane.

    7. CW

      So it's cow burps that cause methane?

    8. DR

      It's cow burps. Well, that cause... The- It's the bacteria in their stomachs that's causing, um, the methane, right? So they're breaking down, um, very fibrous materials in an anaerobic way which produces methane, okay? So m- almost all of the food that those cows would eat if they weren't eating it would just sit in a pile and emit greenhouse gases if we didn't turn it into protein, right? So we just have to sort of talk about that. The grass is still gonna be there. Um, so when the cow breathes out methane it goes up into the atmosphere, it lasts for about 10 years and then it gets broken down into H2O which is water which becomes part of the water cycle which is rain, and then CO2 which is taken up by the plants again and, uh, they breathe, they respire oxygen which is what we breathe in, and then the carbon goes down into the ground, it, uh, feeds the microbes underground, the carbon becomes the grass, that's what it is, the cow eats the carbon, um, and it goes back into their digestive cycle, some of that carbon turns into meat that we eat, some of it turns into poop that, uh, fertilizes the ground again. So it's all these molecules are working in... If you could just picture the swirl of bubbles, that's, that's what a biogenic cycle is, okay? And there aren't really more cattle than there were wild ruminants before we sort of took over and got rid of it. So we don't have more belching animals, um, than we did when we had like the bison, uh, in, in the, you know, 1500s before we went and killed them all, right? Um, so when we talk about fossil fuels, that is a one-way street. So we're extracting ancient, ancient carbon and methane that's been locked in the Earth's core for millions of years and we're pumping it straight up into the atmosphere, so it's not really circulating in the same way that the methane from a cow is being, uh, burped out.... so does that make sense? So it's like-

    9. CW

      Yeah, it does. Surely the- the methane-

    10. DR

      ... like a one- oh, go ahead.

    11. CW

      The methane from both will break down at the same rate though, right? 10- 10 years or so.

    12. DR

      Yeah, yeah. It's not, it's different. It's not that it's gonna be treated differently, but because there's no balance to the fossil fuel equation, it just gets used and- and blown into the atmosphere. It's extra carbon, right? So if you picture like, if you were to picture one of those little, um, ecosphere glass things, you know, what I'm talking about? What are they called?

    13. CW

      Uh, bios- biosphere, is it?

    14. DR

      Ecosphere. Biosphere, right. It would be like the fossil fuels were pumping in extra gases into that, right? Because they're being extracted not from the biogenic natural cycles that are already happening in there. It's from like way locked away carbon that, you know, is outside of that biosphere that then we're gonna be pumping in and it's too much.

    15. CW

      I'm blown away.

    16. DR

      Does that make sense?

    17. CW

      The- the main breathtaking takeaway from today is that it comes from cow burps, not cow farts, like that-

    18. DR

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      ... that's just totally taken- and there's something about that as well. Like, even just in that little example, I think it shows that there's something less icky or something more icky about it being a fart that goes into the air and slightly less icky about it being a burp. I don't- I don't know where I feel about that. So you- you said-

    20. DR

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      ... about the-

    22. DR

      But there's, and then there's a little more to the story too. So I can-

    23. CW

      Tell us.

    24. DR

      Let me, uh, so, um, just as far as the emissions go, like worldwide, when the, when we're talking about numbers and you're hearing that, you know, livestock are worse than the entire transportation sector because that's like a common thing that people say, that is actually completely not true either. So globally, cattle, uh, livestock in general contribute about 5% of all, um, greenhouse gases. But again, it's part of a cycle. Um, transportation, energy production, all of that is the lion's share of, uh, greenhouse gas emissions. And when you were, if you were to look at global warming trends, uh, and CO₂ concentrations rising, it is lockstep with the industrial revolution and the transportation industry taking off. So, um, it- it, you know, we don't... Cattle are not the cause in any way of- of, uh, all the problems we have in the environment. Now, um, there are different ways to raise them. Concentrated manure is a problem, um, feedlots can be not great places for cattle to be, although the- they don't spend their entire lives on feedlots. They're only there for the last few months of their lives. Uh, so all cattle for beef start on grass. Um, guess what? The UK is really good at producing grass. Um, and I, you know, I've- I've been there. I- it's, um, especially when you go north, you don't have a whole lot of vegetable production happening, right? Like, there's just... You have to import most of the vegetables that- that are coming there, especially in the winter. And, um, but the great thing is grazing animals thrive in, you know, lush green pastures, which, um, you know, is the ideal place for, uh, you know, them to be and not cropping.

  8. 21:26 – 24:07

    Who benefits from vilifying meat? Fossil fuels, ultra-processed food, and fake-meat economics

    1. CW

      Got you. So we've talked about meat being a scapegoat. Who is it that wins when meat gets vilified?

    2. DR

      So, the fossil fuel industry loves that all of the attention is on cow farts and not on gasoline and- and fossil fuels and s- and, uh, and all of that, right? So they love this. Um, also the ultra-processed food industry loves it because it gives them a pass. So instead of potato chips and, um, you know, junk food being the problem, it's just meat, right? So- so if you could just eat something that's meat-free, then you're fine, right? It's just sort of like in the '80s and '90s when it was fat-free, it was fine, when we know that that was completely ridiculous. Um, and so, you know, the- the biggest winners though are the Beyond Meat, Impossible Foods and all the money that's going right now into, um, the production of lab-grown meats. So, uh, there's big money, there's, you know, lots of stocks, lots of hopes placed on these alternatives. Um, and I looked up the price of Beyond Meat, and one of those burger patties is actually twice as expensive as organic grass-fed beef here in the US. Um, but it's being pushed as something that's, you know, cleaner nutritionally, better for the environment, and oh, no animals died. Um, but what we point out in the film, in the book is that there is no food system where no animals die. That's impossible because even in the production of your pea proteins or your soy or your wheat, tons of animals have to die in order for that to be grown. So if you then can understand that no animals die, uh, I mean, that there is no animal, that there is no deathless system, uh, sorry, that was a hard one to get out, then- then the only solution is to make sure that the death that happened for your food was done well, right? Um, and so one large ruminant, like a cow can provide 500 pounds of meat. When, if you were to equate a mammal to a mammal, so if a mouse's life, if a death to a mouse is as traumatic as a death to a cow, you know, if those two things are equal, then clearly the solution, if you're trying to live a diet of least harm, would be to eat a cow because so many rodents are killed in the production of grains and, um, and other, you know, plant-based proteins.

  9. 24:07 – 27:45

    Processed foods vs meat debate—and why kids are a special case for animal foods

    1. CW

      Yeah. I wa- I wanna loop back to the philosophical discussion, the ethical side of this in a little bit. I have a- a good friend, Alex O'Connor, who is a- a big vegan philosopher coming out of Oxford. And I literally was speaking to him earlier on today. So I, I have a couple of things that he mentioned to me. But you've highlighted something that's quite interesting there, which is, um, the...... polarity that most people would expect when they hear, "This is a book about meat," is this is a book about not veganism. And it seems to me th- that you're primarily opposed to processed foods rather than people who eat whole foods that are slightly different. Is that right? And i- is the meat-eater versus plant-eater debate making us take our eye off the ball?

    2. DR

      Yeah, so I- I mean, it's, it's, we're arguing about the wrong thing. Um, it's not meat versus no meat, and, um, I'm all for people to have their own choice when it comes to what they feed themselves. Um, as a mother and dietician, I do have a problem with people not, uh, allowing children to eat meat because that can cause some serious problems, and we've seen in the literature-

    3. CW

      What, like-

    4. DR

      ... of babies dying from, uh, being on a vegan diet. So-

    5. CW

      What are the-

    6. DR

      ... um-

    7. CW

      ... What are the deficiencies you get as a, an infant from no meat?

    8. DR

      Primarily B12, which is required for ... I mean, uh, a B12 deficiency can cause permanent brain damage.

    9. CW

      And you can't just supplement that out?

    10. DR

      Not necessarily. So there have been cases of vegan, exclusively breastfed babies to vegan mothers who were taking B12 and the baby died.

    11. CW

      From some downstream-

    12. DR

      B12 deficiency.

    13. CW

      ... effect of B- B12 deficiency? That is-

    14. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      ... terrifying.

    16. DR

      Yeah, um, and another nutrient that is, uh ... So B12 and iron are two of the most common nutrient deficiencies worldwide. It's really hard to get the iron you need from spinach or from plant-based sources. Um, i- b- uh, iron deficiency causes, um, also, uh ... Well, it causes stunting because you need iron to grow, but it can also cause, um, delayed, um, you know, learning problems. And there's only been one clinical control trial, uh, a randomized control trial, looking at children and meat versus less meat or no meat in their diets, and the group that got the meat supplement excelled physically, behaviorally, and, um, physically. So we know that pulling meat away from kids is not gonna do them as good as actually giving them, uh, a little bit more meat. And so, um, you know, that needs to be considered when we're having these policies like meat-free Mondays, uh, in schools, because they're based on nu- no science at all. It's just, you know, "It feels like the right thing to do. We should just make our, make those kids not eat meat."

    17. CW

      It really is difficult to bifurcate the emotional component to a lot of this discussion. And I think, you know, if, if there was a, a s- subtitle to 2020, it's that, like, yeah, I know there might be some facts, or, m- I don't know the facts, but this feels right.

    18. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      Um-

    20. DR

      Definitely.

    21. CW

      S- so yeah-

    22. DR

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... the, the world of fast, easy news and a tweet which can be untrue but reach a million people, I think, sadly, probably doesn't necessarily help this situation. I mean, there wouldn't be or there shouldn't be anyone that wouldn't get behind Processed Foods Free Monday. Like, Processed Foods Free Monday would be, like, that's probably not a bad idea.

    24. DR

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      But meat, meat-

    26. DR

      Or Whole Foods Wednesday. I guess that doesn't work-

    27. CW

      Whole Foods Wednesday.

    28. DR

      ... as well. (laughs)

  10. 27:45 – 32:42

    Protein needs are underestimated: RDAs, satiety, and why people aren’t ‘eating too much meat’

    1. CW

      Hey, I don't mind. I'm all right with Whole Foods Wednesday. One, one of the things that I s- have seen promulgated a lot online is we're already eating too much meat. Isn't that the case?

    2. DR

      No.

    3. CW

      Oh.

    4. DR

      It is not the case at all. So, um, most people aren't getting ... You know, the, the RDA for protein is way too low, um, and I go through that in detail in the book. So, it's recommended daily allowance here in the US. I don't know, um, what you call it in the UK.

    5. CW

      Same thing.

    6. DR

      Um, RDA. Um, so what is it over there? Is it 0.8 grams per kilogram? Do you know?

    7. CW

      Uh, e- I don't know. I think it's 10% maybe, 10 or 15% perhaps.

    8. DR

      O- of total diet, uh, total calories?

    9. CW

      I think so, yeah.

    10. DR

      Which is way too low too. So we have two, um, measurements here. We have pounds per ... uh, grams per kilogram of body weight, but of course, in the US, nobody knows what a gram is or what a kilogram is, right?

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. DR

      So they do the math for you and they base it on an ideal body weight for women of 125, uh, pounds, which is w- way less than what I weigh and just way too low, and for men, 154 pounds.

    13. CW

      Wow, yeah. I would be seriously-

    14. DR

      That's-

    15. CW

      ... un- malnourished if I was eating what a 154-pound man eats.

    16. DR

      Right, and, and the RDA is the minimum, not the optimal amount-

    17. CW

      So it's a minimum-

    18. DR

      ... for a lot of people that don't know.

    19. CW

      ... for the, for the lightweight.

    20. DR

      For the skinny people (laughs) that don't do anything, you know?

    21. CW

      America's a big, America's a big country as well. You got some-

    22. DR

      Right.

    23. CW

      ... some-

    24. DR

      So the average American woman is 166 pounds. The average American man is 195 pounds. So when you then go, "Okay, 0.8 grams per kilogram times ..." Uh, you know, what do we need when we look at a 166-pound woman, it's twice the RDA. Uh-huh. Um, and then when you look at anyone who's in a growth stage, uh, so ba- babies, um, children, adolescents, pregnant women, lactating women, or anyone over 40, when we start to lose muscle mass, they need twice as much protein. So really, people are eating way under the protein. Almost all age groups are getting less than even the RDA of protein right now. Um, and so my recommendation is to at least start at 1.6 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight, which is almost nobody walks into my nutrition practice even eating the RDA of protein, you know, and then wondering why they're so hungry all the time and tired and why they can't lose weight. And the magical thing about upping someone's protein, especially from animal sources, is they lose weight, they have more energy, they're full all day long. Protein is the most satiating macronutrient. Um, and here in America, we're only eating about two ounces of beef per person per day. So that's not like-... these, you know, massive tomahawk steaks every single night. But, but that's what the perception is, uh, we're clearly eating too much meat. And again, that's based on an environmental, "I feel like we're eating too much meat." And what that really means is, "I don't like what feedlots look like. It's gross. I think we should stop them and, you know, do something different." That's, that's what is actually, like if you could do, like a thought bubble over someone's head, that's what they're thinking. Um, we're eating way more chicken than we ever have before, and chicken is less nutrient-dense than beef. And we're also eating twice as much processed foods as we did in the 1970s. And so, we've seen our obesity and, uh, diabetes rates soar because of this. We're eating less meat than ever, uh, th- than 1970. Um, and again and again, when I increase someone's meat intake and I tell them, like, "Okay. Why don't you..." I'll take a 160-pound woman that wants to lose weight and I'll say, "Okay. How about you try eating 130 grams of protein a day?" They can't even do it. They, they're so full and they think it's so wrong, you know? But that's, that's what works. That's, that's my, like magical ticket now. Nobody has to come see me as a dietician, because that's like pretty much what I charge people to do. Guess what? You need more protein. (laughs)

    25. CW

      Eat more protein and so do you, and so do you. Right, everybody come in here-

    26. DR

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      ... we're gonna have a mega church sermon. Everybody here needs some more protein. Yeah, um, I mean, anyone who's ever tried to hit two grams per kilo of body weight, who is-

    28. DR

      Oh my God.

    29. CW

      ... like un- untrained or unused to it, um-

    30. DR

      Yeah.

  11. 32:42 – 35:56

    Practical strategies to eat more protein: rethinking breakfast and ‘meal one’

    1. CW

      Yeah, it would be insane, and, uh, therefore, we heavily rely on supplements. So what is, or what are some of your best pieces of advice for someone who needs to get more protein in? You've just identified there-

    2. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... that you say, "160-pound woman, 130 grams of protein. I can't get it in." What are, (laughs) what are some of the ways that... (laughs)

    4. DR

      (laughs) Stop laughing.

    5. CW

      No. No, you laughed at, "I can't get it in" first, and now, and then I saw you laughing and now I'm laughing. (sighs)

    6. DR

      Okay. I'm changing (bleep) breakfast.

    7. CW

      How can we, how can people eat...

    8. DR

      Breakfast. Breakfast is the number one way to get. So if we can get at least just 30 grams of p- of animal sourced food, animal sourced protein in at breakfast, that really sets the metabolism and sets your, um, appetite for the whole rest of the day. So, um, and surprisingly eggs are so low in protein. Everyone's like, "Well, I hate eggs." And I'm like, "Well, who said you have to eat eggs for breakfast?"

    9. CW

      Eggs, breakfast.

    10. DR

      But they think that that's the rule, right? That's, that's, that's, the egg and cereal industry telling us that breakfast cereals and eggs are what you eat for breakfast. So this morning for breakfast I had some meatballs, I think, and then for lunch I just had like a big piece of, um, of fish, uh, with some vegetables on the side. So I'm not telling people not to eat vegetables. I'm just saying if you, if weight is an issue for you, or if you don't wanna gain weight, which most of us don't, um, or if you wanna put on some muscle, or if you wanna have more energy, then consider increasing your protein and it's a lot easier. Usually people are not eating enough protein in the morning, um, with breakfast. So it's easier to think of, you know, maybe eating like six ounces of, um, steak or pork or chicken or something, or fish with lunch or dinner, but for some reason with breakfast people are thinking, "Oh, just want a little piece of toast," and you know, no. You need, you know, that's the worst thing.

    11. CW

      Other than, other than meatballs, what ev- what else can we do on a morning? 'Cause I, I, you know-

    12. DR

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      ... the, it's, I'm, I'm a fan of meatballs but I can't see me having it every morning for breakfast.

    14. DR

      Yeah. Sausages, um, leftover steak from the night before. Um, I'll make eggs but I'll put a ton of ham in them, um, a little bit of cheddar cheese. That's a good source of protein too. Um, I'll, I eat fish a lot, um, and, or some people like, um, you know, just sliced turkey with, you know, like in a lettuce wrap for breakfast with a little bit of pesto or something. There's, there's so many ways to get it in. I mean, it's just real- really meal one, not breakfast.

    15. CW

      Okay.

    16. DR

      So if you think meal one, meal two, meal three, um, it doesn't have to be, you know, eggs and bacon or, as, as your only like meat-based breakfast option.

    17. CW

      Yeah. That fits for me as well. I tend to go fasted until around about midday, just I don't like training on a full stomach and I tend to train in the morning.

    18. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      So for me, I, I'll then like kind of condense that afternoon down. So that very much is kind of like, like early lunch, late lunch, nearly dinner, early dinner, dinner, bed. Like so-

    20. DR

      (laughs)

  12. 35:56 – 39:25

    Meat and health fears: cancer risk framing, cholesterol retrenchment, and media distortion

    1. CW

      ... the, the, uh, it is meal one, two, three, four. Um, what about meat and cancer? Doesn't increating, in- increasing our meat consumption increase our risk of cancer?

    2. DR

      Not with fresh red meat. They did find a little bit of an increase with bacon. Um, but your average chance of getting colon cancer with, um, in the general public is 5% out of like people, right? If you were to eat five slices of bacon every single day for the entire rest of your life, your chance goes from 5% to 6%. Okay? But the media reports that as a 20% increase. "Oh my gosh." But, uh, it was actually 18% increase. But the, but that's still not even twice, that's not even 50% the risk. That's, it's, it's statistically meaningless, um, to go from 5% to 6%. There are so many other great ways to avoid getting cancer, like don't smoke.... exercise, uh, eat a, a, a mostly unprocessed food diet in general, um, you know, th- anyway, so in the context of a good diet and a good lifestyle, I see no reason why people should be avoiding processed meats, um, either.

    3. CW

      What about cholesterol? I, uh, cholesterol's bad and meats are bad and I don't even know what mine is, but I don't want cholesterol, so-

    4. DR

      Right.

    5. CW

      ... what do I do?

    6. DR

      Um, I go into it I- in depth in the book and it's interesting because, um, you know, a lot of the hysteria has just been debunked so many times about cholesterol, it's actually taken off the nutrients of concern of the US dietary guidelines now.

    7. CW

      Wow.

    8. DR

      Um, but quietly. Uh, so that didn't make too many headlines.

    9. CW

      Slow retraction, yeah.

    10. DR

      Sl- yeah. Um, so, you know, we're less afraid of fat these days. So butter is now, you know, kind of making a little bit of a comeback. Actually, butter sales during COVID were through the roof, better than ever before. I think it's 'cause a lot of people were home baking too, so that's not necessarily, um, you know, always a good thing, but meat is worse than butter could, right? Because it's, it's not only gonna kill you, but it's also bad for the environment and it's bad to kill an animal, right? So the anti-meat thing is way worse than the anti-fat thing, um, because we didn't have, you know, anti-butter people marching around and, you know, (laughs) going after butcher stores and destroying property and, um, issuing death threats to people that promoted butter, right? But that's what's happening, uh, with the meat movement right now, is the anti-meat folks, and we touch on that in the film. We show a story about a butcher shop that was being harassed, um, and actually has to have a sign permanently in their window now about, um, how, you know, there is no such thing as an ethical slaughter. Um, animals have died for your food, you know, stuff like that. Um, it's, it's absolutely crazy and, um, you know, unfortunately these fringe groups tend to attract people who already are, um, maybe not totally thinking logically, but then when you get a B12 deficiency on top of that from being vegan, then you get some really radical behavior. Um, and so-

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. DR

      ... you know, it's, it's, it's been really interesting for me to see how this all gets expressed.

  13. 39:25 – 44:25

    Ethical philosophy pushback: valuing lives, ecosystem health, and drawing lines in ‘least harm’

    1. CW

      Yeah. It, it's fascinating for me as well. I mentioned earlier on my friend, Alex, um, who is one of the best thought-through vegans, eh, the, the, the single best thought-through vegan that I've ever met. So he hasn't gone from an emotive perspective, he goes from a philosophical perspective in that he thinks minimizing suffering is something that we should all do, um, and if I was to dig into, if I was to steel man his argument versus the mouse argument that you meant, made earlier on, I think that he wouldn't equate the suffering of a, a mouse to the suffering of a cow. Now again, volume of how many earthworms and everything else is dug up versus killing a cow, all that sort of stuff, A- Alex needs to be here to kind of defend himself. My point is that he-

    2. DR

      I, yeah.

    3. CW

      ... he stood out to me, uh, because of how robust and well-grounded his understanding was. He spent hundreds of hours debating people in the Oxford University halls and pubs around there, um, to ensure that his stance was robust enough for him to make the lifestyle change. He didn't want to go vegan, but he felt compelled to because of something philosophically. Now-

    4. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... that was surprising to me because that appears to be a rarity, and if everybody was coming up to me and saying, "Hey man, like, here is my incredibly well-read, very well-grounded, calmly, beautifully articulated reason for why I think that veganism is the lifestyle for me," I'm like, "Yeah, I can have a conversation with him." I enjoy having a conversation with him.

    6. DR

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      Having pig's blood thrown on me because I own a Canada goose doesn't feel quite the same, and that's got nothing to do with diet.

    8. DR

      Yeah. Yeah. There's definitely ways to intelligently engage people. You know, your friend should probably read this book written by Andrew Smith out of Drexel University, um, it's called A Critique of the Moral Defense of Vegetarianism. So he is a philosophy professor, PhD, he was an ethical vegan, and he started writing a paper on why he was vegan and it turned into a book where he talked himself out of it.

    9. CW

      (laughs)

    10. DR

      I did a podcast with him a while ago, maybe three years ago, so his name's Andrew Smith.

    11. CW

      Cool.

    12. DR

      Um, I did interview him for the film and his interview didn't make it in only because we had some other stronger stories, um, that the editors felt were better, but I do, um, when we do the global release of the film, um, people are gonna have an opportunity to purchase the extended interviews-

    13. CW

      DVD extras and stuff.

    14. DR

      ... and his is one of it.

    15. CW

      Yeah. That's cool.

    16. DR

      Yeah. So my pushback to that argument would be who are you to say that just because an animal is larger, its life is worth more? Like, what is the criteria of life being worth more or less than something else? Would a zebra be worth more, or would a giraffe be worth more because it's physically larger? Does, would that mean that, you know, you are more important than me because I'm smaller? You know, like where does, where does that, where do we go with that? Or you know, a 300-year-old maple tree that is the habitat for hundreds, um, of little critters and insects and, you know, providing food for, for, and shelter, it, because that's a plant, would the death of that tree be less important than the death of a field mouse?... right? Um, so, uh, where do we draw the line between, like, the difference between ecosystem function and health and individual lives, and how do you equate... you know, what- why is... why on earth would a mouse be less important than a, you know... or a colony of bees? They're really intelligent, right? But, you know, so is spraying insecticides okay, you know? And if it isn't okay, then how are we gonna produce food without insecticides? Oh, we need animals. But then how are we gonna... I feel like I'm on The Princess Bride. How are we gonna, how are we gonna, you know, use animal inputs to grow kale if no animals can die? What if an animal dies? Do we put it in the compost or do we just, like, leave it in the woods? It's gonna compost in the woods too. Should we just... you know, like, how, what... where do things end and other things begin? And the reality is we're all just molecules being recycled into other molecules, right? Like, that's, that's all we are, um, which gets some of the very religious people very frustrated with me. But that is the truth. And, and so, you know, we have to just be looking at, you know, how do we increase the biodiversity? How do we increase the quality of life?

  14. 44:25 – 48:17

    Carnivore diet as a clinical tool, binge eating during COVID, and why processed foods hijack appetite

    1. CW

      What's your opinion on the carnivore diet?

    2. DR

      I think it can be a great tool for someone who has really messed up guts, um, and has tried a lot of other things and it hasn't worked. Um, maybe people with extreme autoimmune issues, things like that. Although I think, um, as a lifestyle, like just for someone who wants to try it out because it's cool or, you know, just as a weight loss thing, I think people should be eating as many foods that don't give them as pro- problems as possible and the mo- try to get the most nutrient density we can through food. And, um, so as a clinician, I've used it with patients, um, with amazing success. With, um, binge eaters sometimes, just restricting it all the way down to just meat so they have no other decision is really actually quite helpful. Amazingly. Um, uh, and I've seen so many more binge eaters during COVID than I've ever seen before. Um, so why use-

    3. CW

      Do you think that's just people comforting themselves with food?

    4. DR

      Yeah, I mean, binge eating tends to be something that comes out of, uh, people feeling that they don't have control. And I think it's really hard to feel like you have control over anything during this time.

    5. CW

      During a pandemic, yeah.

    6. DR

      Yeah. So, uh, and then also, I mean, just... if you have an emotional, um, issue with food, a distorted relationship with food, having 24/7 access to your refrigerator is not a good thing, right?

    7. CW

      I saw this-

    8. DR

      Humans-

    9. CW

      I s- I saw this meme at the beginning of the summer that said, uh, and it was a, a note posted inside of the fridge, and it said, "You're not hungry, you're just fucking bored."

    10. DR

      Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I actually had a... I saw another cartoon saying that, um, the fridge was sentient-

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. DR

      ... because it's calling your name, you know. Um, so no other animal has to go around saying, "Oh, I've had enough. I can't possibly eat. I better stop eating all those coconuts." You know? Like, all animals are wired to seek out food, um, as diverse as possible. Um, so that's called optimum foraging strategies. An awesome paper written about that. Um, so humans are wired to, you know, eat some of these berries, but then you kinda get a little, like, full on those. But then there's always room for those berries, right? Because those ones are... uh, they have different nutrients in them. Um, but... so when we're confronted with all these nutrient-poor processed foods that stimulate us to overeat, we have no off switch for them. It's very easy to see why people are overweight. Um, and it's really not their fault. It's, it's we've engineered ourselves into a really disturbing relationship with food.

    13. CW

      The arms race is incredibly unfair. I learned the word aurification at the beginning of this year, which I think is the design of the texture of foods.

    14. DR

      Mm.

    15. CW

      And one of the examples, or a couple of the examples that were given, is that, um, ancestrally, it would be very rare for us to come across a food which had multiple textures in it.

    16. DR

      Mm.

    17. CW

      Like, you get a bunch of berries, they're kind of slimy. You get some kale, it's also kind of slimy. You get some meat, it's kind of like a little bit more tough and chewy. And you get something that's been out in the sun and it's dry and crispy or whatever. Um, but if you look at most foods that are really weaponized for overeating, like fries or Oreos, there is a contrast to the texture, crispy on the outside and fluffy and light on the inside.

    18. DR

      Mm.

    19. CW

      And that helps to bypass, obviously, a- another one of them is the balance between carbohydrates and fat-

    20. DR

      And fat. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    21. CW

      ... that tends to be in there as well, which is why cheesecake is such a bastard.

    22. DR

      Oh, it's my favorite. Yeah.

    23. CW

      Because you've got this... you've got the buttery biscuit base, and then you've got the cream on top, and then you've got the, the tanginess, the sweetness of the jam, so you can... sugar and fat and then a little bit more carbs at the bottom. Like-

    24. DR

      Yeah.

  15. 48:17 – 52:25

    How to buy ‘better meat’: nutrition vs production, red meat priorities, and supporting local farmers

    1. CW

      ... it's hard, it's hard to say no. Um, so we've, that's the stuff we shouldn't be eating. What are the rules that I can follow so that I make sure that I get good meat? I go to the supermarket tomorrow or I go shopping online tomorrow. What do I do?

    2. DR

      Um, you know, I... i- if... there's two things. You know, one is for health, right? So there's not a massive difference, uh, in nutritional quality between a totally grass-fed steak and a steak that was finished on a feed lot. Um, and so even if you don't have a lot of money, your, your best money is spent on the more red meats than chicken or pork, um, just because nutritionally it's just a powerhouse, right? Uh, organ meats are gonna be a really good choice for you. Um, when we're... you know, local fish. Um, I love fish. I actually prefer the taste of fish to, to meat. Um, it's all just animal flesh though. I don't know why we like say-

    3. CW

      E-

    4. DR

      ... like meat, fish, you know?

    5. CW

      Every- everyone I... You're from Boston, right? Or you're in Boston?

    6. DR

      Uh, yeah. Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      Yeah. Um-... everyone I know from Boston absolutely adores seafood and-

    8. DR

      Oh. (laughs)

    9. CW

      ... fish. Everyone. I went out, I went out there and I got taken for a roll, some sort of roll with lobster.

    10. DR

      Lobs roll.

    11. CW

      Yeah, with lobster, like, shredded in it.

    12. DR

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      And covered in butter.

    14. DR

      Yeah. (laughs)

    15. CW

      (groans)

    16. DR

      You've never heard of a lobster roll? (laughs)

    17. CW

      No. I'm British. What do you think we have over here?

    18. DR

      I know. (laughs)

    19. CW

      Fish and chip, battered fish, chips, and weak tea. That's what we've got over here.

    20. DR

      (laughs) Uh, yeah, lobster roll is pretty... Well, I didn't actually grow up here, um, but, but yeah, I love the, I love fish and, and when someone comes, you have to take them out for a lobster roll. That's-

    21. CW

      That's what happened to me.

    22. DR

      ... what you do, or clam chowder. Yeah.

    23. CW

      That's precisely what happened to me.

    24. DR

      Uh-huh. Um, so, uh, so I highly recommend that, um, folks just try to get food as close to the source as possible. If you have the opportunity to go find a farmer, to buy your meat directly from them, um, and that's not, not always an option. I know in Iceland they couldn't do that because of government regulations. Like, they had to sell it. They, it had, like, all had to... The government set the price for lamb, um.

    25. CW

      Oh, wow.

    26. DR

      So, uh, anyway, I just, um, you know, as much as you can support local farmers, you know, buy, you know, British beef, British lamb, not the imported stuff, um, because that's what's keeping the British landscapes beautiful is the farming culture there. And, um, I saw a big divide between, like, city and farming, um, you know, urban and rural when I was there. We have that here too in America, and it's really unfortunate. Um, so, uh, you know, supporting the people that are in your own region that are producing, working hard to produce food and also keeping things beautiful is, um, and healthy is, is the best.

    27. CW

      I get it. Diana, thank you. Where can people go? Do they wanna watch the film? They wanna buy the book?

    28. DR

      Oh, right.

    29. CW

      Where do they go?

    30. DR

      Yeah, so sacredcow.info, they can sign up. We're doing the free global preview of the film November 22nd through 30th. Um, it's gonna be only that week, and then it's gonna go away. It's going into distribution. It'll be available on mainstream platforms starting in January in n- in North America. I don't know when it's coming to the UK, so this is your chance. So, it's November, um, 22nd to the 30th. Uh, the book is available wherever books are sold. Um, I have info on, on the website, and then folks can follow me on Instagram at Sustainable Dish.

Episode duration: 52:25

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