The Contrepreneur Formula Exposed: Behind The Scenes | Mike Winnet

1. 0:00 – 2:31

   “Get-rich-quick ad clicker”: Mike’s YouTube experiment and why nothing has worked

   1. MWMike Winnet0:00

      I am Mike Winnat and I am a get-rich-quick ad clicker. All those things that you see in your news feed on Facebook or Instagram, I think they are amazing. I'd love to be a millionaire in six months so I believe them all, I click them all, I invest all my own money into it. Here's everywhere I've put my money, this what happens over the next year, this is what was promised, and these are the results. And that's all I do, I put that content onto YouTube.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:22

      What's the success ratio been like?

   3. MWMike Winnet0:23

      Uh, none of them have worked so far.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:25

      (laughs)

   5. MWMike Winnet0:25

      Which is weird because the only people that seem to get success from it are the people that are selling you their course to do it, which is... I mean, maybe I'm just unlucky.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:33

      (laughs)

   7. MWMike Winnet0:33

      I try my best to make them work. (laughs) They just don't so far, but I still carry on winning hope. I will be a millionaire this time next year from all of these different schemes.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:45

      I am joined by Russell Brunson's best friend and the undirected king of LinkedIn, Mike Winnat. Mike, welcome to the show.

   9. MWMike Winnet0:54

      Cheers for having me on. Thank you.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:56

       It's a pleasure to have you here. Massive fan of your YouTube channel and the work that you've been doing recently. Um, a lot to talk about today, I think. A lot of the listeners will be very familiar with internet marketing and, um, get-rich-quick schemes and they'll be targeted by the ads probably on this video on YouTube. They will almost definitely be targeted by those ads. So, uh, yeah, we got a lot to delve into today. So for the listeners that don't know who you are, would you be able to explain what you've been doing on YouTube over the- the last few months?

   11. MWMike Winnet1:27

       Yes. So I am Mike Winnat and I am a get-rich-quick ad clicker. So all those things that you see in your news feed on Facebook or Instagram, I think they are amazing. I'd love to be a millionaire in six months from dropshipping or through flipping products on eBay and affiliate marketing. So I believe them all, I click them all, I invest all my own money into it, and I report my results as they are compared to what the claims made by the gurus is. And that's all I do, I put that content onto YouTube and you can see for free whether they work or they don't. That's it.

   12. CWChris Williamson2:04

       What's the suc- what's the success ratio been like?

   13. MWMike Winnet2:06

       Uh, none of them have worked so far.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:08

       (laughs)

   15. MWMike Winnet2:08

       Not one. Which is weird because-

   16. CWChris Williamson2:10

       (laughs)

   17. MWMike Winnet2:11

       ... the only people that seem to get success from it are the people that are selling you their course to do it, which is... I mean, maybe I'm just unlucky. But I can t- I promise you, I've tried my best.

   18. CWChris Williamson2:20

       (laughs)

   19. MWMike Winnet2:22

       I've tried my best to make them work. They just don't so far. But I still carry on winning hope. I will be a millionaire this time next year from all of these different schemes.

2. 2:31 – 4:23

   Why these schemes sell: “anyone can do it,” passive income, and effort-free promises

   1. CWChris Williamson2:31

      I think one of the... Y- y- you hit straight on one of the points there, which is that unless you have the money to be able to spend on these particular courses-

   2. MWMike Winnet2:41

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:41

      ... there's no, there's no way of foolproofing them.

   4. MWMike Winnet2:44

      No. No, no, that's- that's true. That's true. Uh, yes, so there is- there is no way t- to foolproof them. I don't... I think the- the problem with them is how they're marketed to people as if anyone can do this, it's easy, and it's passive income and you can make this money from two hours a week, three hours a week. It's like targeting people that don't want to put the effort in, in many, in many ways. But also, of course, they're going to make it sound easy and anyone can do it with no startup cost because if they said, "Actually, it's 100 hours a week and you need money to start," then they wouldn't sell as many of these courses. So that's true.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:18

      Yeah. It's- it's so interesting. I think that proliferation of these sorts of schemes and- and adverts and, I mean, anyone who's scrolling down Facebook, the number of times that I've heard the sentence on YouTube, "I can't believe that people are still working in this old way."

   6. MWMike Winnet3:38

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:38

      But like, an Australian guy, then an American guy, then a- a- a guy from down south, then a whatever guy. And it's like, "What the fuck is going on?"

   8. MWMike Winnet3:46

      Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like stupidly, um, I have worked really hard to earn money and when I had my own business, I used to do six days a week, 16-hour days and I didn't get paid what they're getting from just doing two hours in their mom's spare bedroom, you know, per week. I wasn't getting those returns. Um, and then luckily, I was lucky enough to grow a business and sell a business and then create enough money to afford me to do this sort of two-year little experiment, which I regret sometimes.

   9. CWChris Williamson4:14

      (laughs)

   10. MWMike Winnet4:17

       So I have my ups and downs with this, like a love-hate, um, kind of project, to be honest.

3. 4:23 – 9:29

   Going viral brings fans and haters: internet comments, anonymity, and engagement asymmetry

   1. CWChris Williamson4:23

      Yeah. Well, I mean, you've- you've recently sort of seen a massive influx in terms of exposure and plays though, right? Like, the last couple of weeks have been insane.

   2. MWMike Winnet4:31

      Yeah, yeah. I was on 5,000 subscribers two weeks ago and now it's on 17,000, so last two weeks it's-

   3. CWChris Williamson4:36

      Dream.

   4. MWMike Winnet4:36

      ... you know, tripled. Yeah, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson4:38

      Absolute dream.

   6. MWMike Winnet4:38

      Well, say the dream, but you'll- you'll know this more than me 'cause I've never had Instagram before, I've never been on Facebook before, and I'd obviously started YouTube in January. What I find is, the more people that start subscribing, you get two sets of people. You get, like, fans that love what you're doing, but then also people that hate what you're doing, but they still subscribe to tell you they hate what you're doing. So it's crazy. I- I've worked it out now. It's roughly 1,000 views equals one thumbs down. That's my sort of rate- rate at the moment.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:09

      Yeah. I think that's about right.

   8. MWMike Winnet5:10

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson5:10

      It's i- it's interesting as well when you talk about, um, the little asymmetries in your exposure, and you'll notice this with your better-performing videos, and some o- of the listeners may know this as well. If you've ever posted a piece of content which has absolutely banged, like gone- gone much bigger, like 2X to 10X more than your usual piece, it kind of opens that sphere of awareness outside of the usual people that are just a part-

   10. MWMike Winnet5:37

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson5:37

       ... of your, like, crew and they know what you're about and they're always going to give you a bit of support. And then what you actually see is, like, this little... You just get to look through the peephole and you see the real internet.

   12. MWMike Winnet5:47

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson5:47

       And you're like, "Oh, that's the fucking... That's the no man's land out there. That's the- where the savages live."

   14. MWMike Winnet5:54

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I've- I've had that with the Contrepreneur Formula video. That's the one that went... So my video's done about 20,000 views. That was almost at 200,000 views before it got pulled, and we'll talk about that later. But that did 200,000 views, but what that brought was...... hundreds and hundreds of comments, like, calling me out. I mean, some people even noted I had a bum chin in the comments.

   15. CWChris Williamson6:16

       (laughs)

   16. MWMike Winnet6:16

       I'd never noticed that before I had a YouTube video.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:18

       (laughs)

   18. MWMike Winnet6:20

       But yeah, it's just like-

   19. CWChris Williamson6:20

       They're very observant. The people of the internet-

   20. MWMike Winnet6:22

       I know.

   21. CWChris Williamson6:22

       ... are crazy observant, man.

   22. MWMike Winnet6:24

       I know. It was news to me. But, um, it just makes me think sometimes. It's like, uh, some of the comments on there, for example, are, "This is a channel for losers." But then he's made that comment on every single video and you almost want to say, "So what are you still doing here then?"

   23. CWChris Williamson6:36

       Yeah. Why have you got so much time on your hand?

   24. MWMike Winnet6:38

       Exactly.

   25. CWChris Williamson6:38

       If I'm the loser, how come you've got so much time on your hands?

   26. MWMike Winnet6:41

       I know, I know. It's, it's funny though ...

   27. CWChris Williamson6:43

       Yeah.

   28. MWMike Winnet6:43

       ... but that's the biggest thing. So like, "You're, you're unsuccessful, that's the only reason it doesn't work. You're a loser. You'll never quit the nine-to-five grind." And all these things, ill-informed comments really. But I suppose that's how people get on in life.

   29. CWChris Williamson6:56

       Yeah.

   30. MWMike Winnet6:56

       I don't know. It's just the internet, isn't it?
4. 9:29 – 13:58

   Before YouTube: building Learning Heroes and engineering a multi-million exit

   1. CWChris Williamson9:29

      Uh, before we, before we get into the, the thick of it, uh, ladies and gentlemen, if you are listening right now, head to wherever you are and give us five stars or give us a thumbs up. Let us know that you're listening and fight back against the arseholes of the internet. Thank you very much. Um, so the first thing that I wanted to know, Mike, was actually the ... to roll back a little bit and work out what you did before this, 'cause in one of your videos-

   2. MWMike Winnet9:49

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:49

      ... you mentioned you had a company and then you managed to get an exit. Um, you, I think you fondly refer to it as being kicked out of your own company (laughs) with a, with a pay-

   4. MWMike Winnet9:57

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:57

      ... with a paycheck. Could you give us a-

   6. MWMike Winnet9:59

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson9:59

      ... a brief bit of history with that?

   8. MWMike Winnet10:01

      Yeah. So I had a company that I set up with three of my friends. It was called Learning Heroes and it was, um, we would make blended learning resources, so e-learning, uh, content, animated explainer videos, um, on loads of stuff like cybersecurity, data protection, leadership, team working, working at heights. Just normal, boring work stuff, but made in a style that was, uh, more in keeping with how we'd learn at home. So it was short, animated explainer rather than click next death by PowerPoint. So it was basically interesting e-learning if there is such a thing. There isn't really, if I'm honest.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:38

      (laughs)

   10. MWMike Winnet10:38

       We sold that to corporates and then corporates could use that in that company to help them train their staff. So we made content for trainers to use to do, um, employee training basically. And it was always a three-year plan. So we thought make the business, grow the business, look to partner certain companies that might want to buy us out, look to target some companies that do similar things to what we do and they might want to buy us out to protect their, uh, client base, create competitive tension, sell to one of them, then walk away with our money. And it was a three-year, three-year, 10 million pound plan. And we did it almost. We didn't quite get the 10 million. We got $11 million, but it was eight million in cash two and a half years later.

   11. CWChris Williamson11:23

       That sounds like-

   12. MWMike Winnet11:24

       That was it.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:24

       That sounds like an incredibly well laid out and well executed plan. Had you had success in business like this before?

   14. MWMike Winnet11:30

       No, I had worked in two startups before. So I had seen startups from almost day one through to maybe two, three, four years down the line. And, um, I was a trainer, a, a sales trainer for a company that sold franchises. So every week, when a new franchisee come on, I would help them set their business up. So it was like I was kind of helping startup businesses week after week and I'd stay with them for a fir- for a couple of weeks. So I was doing it for a salary for other people for ages, in a completely different sector, by the way. And I just thought, "What am I doing building someone else's business when I, I've got all the knowledge? I can see what's worked for them. I can see what they could do better and try and apply it to, um, a sector that I thought we could grow a business in." And e-learning was the easiest sector in my mind at the time.

   15. CWChris Williamson12:17

       ... well, I-

   16. MWMike Winnet12:18

       I have no background in-

   17. CWChris Williamson12:19

       (laughs)

   18. MWMike Winnet12:19

       ... no background in that sector.

   19. CWChris Williamson12:21

       What an unbelievable, uh, identification of a, a niche to capitalize on.

   20. MWMike Winnet12:26

       Well, sure it was. Uh, this will sound like a crazy story. So, I just walked out of a job at the time. I had a baby on the way and I wanted good money and, um, I had a bit of a disagreement with the boss and he said, "My problem is I want everything to run perfectly." He said, "If you had your own business, it'd be very small and very well run, but it wouldn't make much money." So I handed him my notice right there. It was like 10:00 in the morning, come home. And then, ef- he said... he basically put me on gardening leave, so I had six weeks to come up with an idea. And then I looked at what jobs were available basically, and every job description was saying stuff like, "You must be able to work in a team. You must be able to manage your time properly." And I thought, "You don't have a GCSE in time management. What courses are available?" Looked online, saw the courses, and it was like, a four-hour course on time management and it was like, click next. And I thought, "Well, if I want to find anything out at home, I'll go on YouTube and watch a five-minute video." And that's where the idea came from. Why don't we learn at work how we learn at home? And then, um, I had, uh, friends that had a training business and they had s- they did a lot of face-to-face training and between ourselves, we come up with the idea. And that was it.

   21. CWChris Williamson13:34

       It's great. It's honestly, the fact that... (inhales sharply) I, I suppose this is kind of oddly romantic given the, uh, path that you've gone down at the moment, the fact that it was, uh, such a transactional, uh, relationship between you and your business, which ended up being, like, the one that banged. It was just, find a niche-

   22. MWMike Winnet13:55

       Yeah. First time-

   23. CWChris Williamson13:55

       ... identify a niche, crack on.

5. 13:58 – 17:04

   Mike’s “checklist” for a winning business: genuine USP, market conditions, and Netflix-style pricing

   1. MWMike Winnet13:58

      I don't wanna sound like a, like a bit of a weirdo, but I've got a kind of checklist that I think a business would work in this sector. So, if the sector has these certain criteria, I think then I can apply this checklist to that sector. This will blow... if anyone that's watching this... this will blow some people's minds 'cause if you read the YouTube comments, um, I've, I've, I've... I'm a failure in business. I'm just a, a- an internet troll. But yeah, so... but my legit business, I've got like, a checklist that I follow. There has to be certain market conditions. You have to be able to offer a, a genuine alternative. That was one of the biggest things in e-learning, um, if you want me to talk specifically about e-learning. But everybody... here's a great example. Recruitment agencies. There's hundreds of them, and most recruitment companies s- are started up by someone that used to work for a recruitment company, right? "We're different," but the only difference is they charge 1% less or their fees are slightly smaller. They haven't got a genuine USP.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:50

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MWMike Winnet14:50

      But they all like to say they're different. What we did with e-learning was we looked at it and everybody charged per course, per head, long contracts, it was long drawn out content and we just thought, "Why don't we do the complete opposite? So we'll just... it's pay a monthly subscription and then you can get access to all of our content." Similar to Netflix. Similar to Netflix, we'll give you new content every week, so when a new course comes out, you don't have to pay us any more money, you can have it for free. And we said, "If you don't like what we do, we don't wanna keep someone unhappy, just leave. Like, we're not arsed. Just, just leave. We're not trying to get the most money out of you. We want you to be a fan, an advocate." And we did that and we absolutely just tore... like-

   4. CWChris Williamson15:31

      (laughs)

   5. MWMike Winnet15:31

      ... hammered the industry. We d- we were taking people's-

   6. CWChris Williamson15:33

      (laughs)

   7. MWMike Winnet15:33

      ... f- left, right and center. And people said, "You must have your pricing wrong because it's so much cheaper than everyone else's." And we said, "No. They've all done it wrong. This is how it should be done."

   8. CWChris Williamson15:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. MWMike Winnet15:44

      And it was one of the companies that told us in the first few months that, you know, we, we wouldn't be around if we carried on like that, that ended up showing the most interest to buy us out.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:52

       Amazing.

   11. MWMike Winnet15:53

       So-

   12. CWChris Williamson15:54

       Amazing. (laughs)

   13. MWMike Winnet15:54

       But yeah, it was, it was. It's quite an interesting story in many ways. But, don't wanna sound weird, but we knew it was gonna work. We knew it was gonna happen, so we sort of planned for that exit in the first couple of weeks. It was like, "This is the day we are gonna sell and this is how much we want." So every decision we made on that way was backwards planned from that point.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:15

       Unbelievable. That's so good, man.

   15. MWMike Winnet16:17

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson16:17

       That's great. It's, it's really nice to hear, especially given that you've worked through the industry and a lot of people that are listening, right? This kind of ties into, I suppose, why people are tempted to do these online courses from the contrapreneurs-

   17. MWMike Winnet16:31

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:31

       ... the, the, the online marketers, because they want that. They want to be able to know that, "In three years time I've got an exit that's worth nearly 10 mil." Like that's, you know, that's, that's the goal, the fucking golden dream that everybody wants. But yeah, the whole point of what you've come across there is that you s- you had some existing experience which at least allowed you to frame the particular situation appropriately, and then moving forward, you came up with a unique product and then just single, single mind aimed towards the goal that you knew that you wanted. The whole-

   19. MWMike Winnet17:03

       Yeah.

6. 17:04 – 21:15

   Turning customers into competitors: defining ‘contrapreneurs’ and the shovel-selling business model

   1. CWChris Williamson17:04

      ... the whole point of that is the fact that you had a unique offering. Like, without the unique offering, everything else would have just fallen apart. But the first thing that strikes me about these online marketing courses is that if everyone is learning the same thing as you, your offering cannot be unique, by definition.

   2. MWMike Winnet17:20

      Yeah. I, I say it so many times. Logic would state, you are turning your customers into competitors, and it's the shittest business model ever. That's, that's why it doesn't work. It's like, "Oh, I'm gonna teach you..." So if I had a property seminar when I did property training in Warrington and I'm showing... I'm talking to 1000 people and I'm a property investor and I make most of my money in property in Warrington and I can tell you how to find below market value deals, why would I teach a room full of 1000 people how to do the thing that I earn my money from? I want as m- few of you to know how I make my money-

   3. CWChris Williamson17:53

      (laughs)

   4. MWMike Winnet17:53

      ... so I can carry on making my money. Unless, whisper it, I'm not making that much money from actually property investing, I'm making money from teaching people how to invest in property, which is something I think that a lot of these people do.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:06

      Mm.

   6. MWMike Winnet18:07

      It's... and... Yeah, go on.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:09

      So, let's get into it. How would you define a contrapreneur?

   8. MWMike Winnet18:15

      So really, I think a c- a contrapreneur is someone that...... sells shovels to a gold rush. So they're telling everybody there's a gold rush on, this is how you can become rich and wealthy, yet they don't make money from the actual thing that they're telling you're- you to do. They are selling you theory on how to do it. But there's no evidence to suggest that they've made that money doing that very thing. And that's what it is and it targets as many people as possible to sound as easy as possible. And then once they've got you in their sort of sales funnel, they will upsell you, "Well, do you know what? The reason why it's not worked at this stage, six months down the line, is because actually if you just pay me another three grand for my once-a-month mentoring, I'll give you an extra bit of the secret sauce." And then, "Ah, the reason why it's not worked now, well, the reason why it's not worked is because it doesn't work." But they'll still tempt you, "Well, there's actually a higher level to get to and then you'll know the real secrets and the real secrets." So it's just basically getting you into the net, following you through, and taking as much money from you as possible. That's it basically. And you can... It's, they follow pretty much the same script. It doesn't matter what the passive income thing is that they're selling, the language is the same, the formula and the process that they use to get you in the net, even through to the same backstories. I hear the same backstory at different events now, 'cause I go to all these events. And, um, so that's what they do. They basically sell shovels to wantrepreneurs and people desperate to leave their a- their, their rat race basically.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:41

      Yeah.

   10. MWMike Winnet19:41

       But wantrepreneurs.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:42

       Wantrepreneurs. Nice. I like that as well.

   12. MWMike Winnet19:45

       Yeah, so they're entrepreneurs and they basically sell the dream to wantrepreneurs and sometimes it's vulnerable people, desperate people. But I'll say this and be clear, I don't think that all training's bad. I don't think that all training's a con. I don't think that any, every single person that ends their price in a seven, which is something that a lot of them do, is a con. 'Cause if you read their YouTube comments, some people take what you say literally, like, "Oh, well, he's got a price that's a seven. So you're saying he's a scam." Like, no, if you get value from that and you have achieved that thing from that person, he isn't a wantrepreneur to you. He might be to the 99% of other people that failed on his course. Do you see what I mean?

   13. CWChris Williamson20:23

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. MWMike Winnet20:24

       But, but everyone wants blood, don't they? Everyone wants you to basically spell it out to them so you can say, "Right, this person's a wantrepreneur, this person's a wantrepreneur." I don't know every single one of them, but people want me to. My DMs now is, "What about this guy? Is he a wantrepreneur?" It's like I've never heard of the guy.

   15. CWChris Williamson20:36

       I haven't a fucking clue. Yeah. You're not, you're not the glossary, you're not Wikipedia for wantrepreneurs on the internet.

   16. MWMike Winnet20:41

       Huh. You'd think I was though.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:42

       Yeah.

   18. MWMike Winnet20:43

       It, it... From my DMs, it's crazy.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:45

       Well, I think the, the reason for that is that so few other people are doing this. Everyone else is drinking the Kool-Aid. Like, the, the only people that you see that are touting these sort of online get rich quick scheme courses are their ambassadors or the, or the, the showcase, uh, clientele that they've got. Um, and f- the fact that you are the only person that I've ever seen, really, that's not like just s- some disgruntled sounding, like, old, uh, like, w- wife from

7. 21:15 – 26:21

   How the project really started: after the exit, bad financial advice, and £500k of ‘tests’

   1. CWChris Williamson21:15

      God knows where, the back end of Nebraska or something like that, who's written a bad review on Trustpilot. And yeah, I don't, I don't know, I don't understand the process. Um, so you went, you went and did a lot of these courses, right? Do you know how many you've done?

   2. MWMike Winnet21:27

      Yeah. Uh, well, I've been to 12 actual events, like face-to-face, well, here's my, uh, ClickFunnels event, here's my, um, affiliate marketing event, here's my dropshipping event, here's my branding event. But how it actually started, I didn't set out to do this. So when I sold the business and I got given, um, a lump sum of money, I, I, I mean, I don't know your background, but we're working class kids. We're not taught how to handle money. We're not taught how to, um, handle that amount of money. That's how come, you know, when people win the lottery and they blow to 6 million, 7 million rounds, like, "Oh, that would never happen to me." That is a lot easier than you think because you do not know what to do, you don't understand. People think if you have a million pounds, put it in the bank, live off the interest. You can't do that. Your interest is probably 0.9%, inflation's 3%. You actually lose money putting a million pounds in the bank. But people don't understand this concept. And that's not their fault, that's 'cause working class people aren't taught this stuff because we're supposed to be good workers. And so I was given this money, I thought I was doing the right thing and going to find financial experts and independent financial advisors to tell me what to do with my money because I thought, "I've hit the jackpot here. I can either have the best two years of my life and then get back and have a job. Or be boring and make sure that for the next 40 years I get paid a steady income from this money." And it'll only be, say, 20, 30, 40 grand a year. I say only, that's a lot of money, but it's not I'm-a-billionaire money, it's, it just pays your bills or, you know, it's... So that was the plan. Every single person, I saw 15 different financial advisors and they told me to invest in all sorts of stuff. And my question was always the same, "Don't tell me what returns I will get. If you believe in the asset you're trying to get me to invest in so much, how much of your own money have you got in this?" So if you're telling me to invest in the Cayman Islands because I can make 300%, logic would state every single penny you get paid, you'd put in the Cayman Islands because then you'd make thr- 300% back on it. Not one person, not one person would either show me how much they'd invested in their own asset or how much they were really getting, which then made me think, "Do they make more money from telling other people to invest in this, you know, amazing, uh, um, investment opportunity? Or do they actually really believe what they're selling?" And then I just thought, "Do you know what? I'm gonna look at some more left field investments like crypto mining and some of the..." You know, property, we all know you can make money from property long term, 10 years, 15 years, and stocks and shares over time you can see that. But the ones that made, made sort of like raised my eyebrows or the interesting ones were the, anything that was flashy. Anything that had a 23-year-old lad sat in a Lambo on Instagram -

   3. CWChris Williamson24:07

      (laughs)

   4. MWMike Winnet24:07

      ... and thought, "You know what? I'll just put a little pot of money into these things." Almost like a, a gamble. You know, "I'll put five grand into that, 10 grand into that." And that's what I've done. But to the tune of nearly 500,000.

   5. CWChris Williamson24:20

      Is that your total cost so far?

   6. MWMike Winnet24:23

      Totally. And this is why, when people say you want this to fail, you couldn't be further from the truth. You couldn't be further from the truth. So we've got, um, properties we've bought in the UK just to test the returns that were promised by some of the people that have been on the courses. Uh, property in Spain. We've got crypto mining rigs, so we've got like a crypto farm running to test those results. We've invested in cryptocurrency as an asset rather than mining it. We've got, uh, we've just, just bought an affiliate marketing site. I did the video last week. So we've put 10,000 into an affiliate marketing site. We've got stocks and shares. I've put 250,000 into stocks and shares. And it's just gonna be here's everywhere I've put my money. This is what happens over the next year. This is what was promised and these are the results. And then I would almost give them a result. Would I invest with this again knowing what I know now, yes or no? And we're gonna make this amount of money. I'm gonna make a million pounds. No, you're more likely to make 10,000 pounds. Don't quit your job if you wanna do this. And that's all it is really. But I don't want anything to fail. I'm not deliberately trying to sabotage anything.

   7. CWChris Williamson25:31

      You need a, you, you gotta have a very particular mindset if you want something to fail to the tune of half a million quid.

   8. MWMike Winnet25:38

      Yeah. Uh, you're the first person I've told that bit to. Most people don't think, um, I think they just think that I'm going there and deliberately, you know, trying to just, just show up the people that are on stage. But I'm not there naming individuals. It's more like an observation of the actual asset or the passive income stream rather than, "This guy, he's a con artist because..." You know, I'm giving them all the benefit of the doubt. I think they really are just trying to give back to, uh, to other people and help them become millionaires. It's not, they're not doing it to line their own pockets. I think they really are giving back and they're genuine people.

   9. CWChris Williamson26:10

      Yeah. So one of the things that I thought, and we'll get onto the Contrapreneur in a second, because really now that it's been taken down, the only way that we can talk about it at the moment is by us discussing it. The only way that people actually know-

   10. MWMike Winnet26:21

       Yeah.

8. 26:21 – 29:56

   Why Mike avoids naming names: tactics over individuals, legal risk, and the Gary V meeting

   1. CWChris Williamson26:21

      ... what the fuck's going (laughs) on is by this weird retrospective, like, nostalgia that we're gonna have to go through. Um, but one, one of the things that I thought to be, uh, really interesting was the fact that you, uh, and your team elected not to name names.

   2. MWMike Winnet26:34

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:35

      And I think, uh, there's a point where you go and s- you manage to wangle a meeting with Gary V. in New York.

   4. MWMike Winnet26:41

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson26:41

      And you go see him and you sit down and you're on camera in that famous office he's got, which just looks like chaos. And, um, he, he, he's pushing you to say, like, who are the people?

   6. MWMike Winnet26:52

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:52

      And then rather than, like, and that's Gary, it's Gary fucking Vaynerchuk. Like, uh, the listeners will know I've got mixed feelings about Gary. But, like, what you think about him aside, that is the opportunity. If you were ever gonna do it and not be called out by the people on the internet, it's like, "Look, Gary V. wanted me to fucking tell him." But what you elected to do was cut the recording. So you cut the recording-

   8. MWMike Winnet27:13

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson27:13

      ... and told Gary, and then you cut back in. So what I really liked about that was the fact that it, it shows that this isn't, uh, a head hunt, or at least primarily this isn't a head hunt from you guys. This is you with genuine, uh, sort of inquisitiveness and a little bit of skepticism, just trying to find out what the fuck's going on, trying to cut through some of the bullshit.

   10. MWMike Winnet27:37

       Yeah. Like, that's it. Like, I don't want this to be, and I'm not saying, I, I, we'll just say it's John Smith. I don't want this to be an expose of John Smith, because in my mind, what happens is this. There are 99 other people that are using exactly the same tactics as John Smith. But if then you, he's, he's the Contrapreneur guy, it doesn't solve the problem, 'cause everyone thinks, "Oh, I've not been scammed by that guy." If I just make people aware of the tactics used in the industry, if they get that feeling, "Ah, this sounds a lot like that Contrapreneur formula," they will then start to question whoever's trying to sell, sell to them in that way. In my mind, I think that actually helps more people than just saying, "Oh, this is..." I don't know, I just pick random gurus, like the Tony Robbins show, or this is the, whatever, the Gary Vaynerchuk, whoever it is, the Mike Winnitt. You know, Mike Winnitt's the Contrapreneur, whoever it is. I just think it, that was better. But also, I don't wanna get sued. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson28:34

       (laughs)

   12. MWMike Winnet28:34

       I don't want, I don't wanna get sued. And, and what I've noticed is there's a lot of people that have got a lot of powerful friends, and these people make a lot of money for a lot of the social media platforms, as obviously I'm finding out now. Um, there's only gonna be at this stage one winner in that let's expose them now. Um, but I tell you what, Gary actually told me that I do need to name someone. He thinks that I should name someone, and if I want to take it to Netflix, it needs to be name someone. But I think that's based on the name I told him off camera. Do you see? I, I, I'll tell you a funny thing about Gary V.

   13. CWChris Williamson29:06

       Do you think, has Gary, has Gary got a, uh, an agenda there?

   14. MWMike Winnet29:10

       I mean, only he can answer that, honestly. I mean, I can speculate. I would suggest that when I told him the name of the person, and he was pretty much bouncing off the wall saying, "Yes, that's the guy."

   15. CWChris Williamson29:22

       (laughs)

   16. MWMike Winnet29:23

       You know, that would suggest that he also thinks the same about that person. But, you know, he's been on the same card as, uh, as that person. He spoke at the same events. Granted, they weren't on stage together, but they've been at the same events. So it's, he doesn't mind getting paid to be there while that person's there. So, uh, you can ... And this is me being balanced and, uh, neutral on it.

   17. CWChris Williamson29:47

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MWMike Winnet29:47

       I've got very similar feelings, I think, to Gary V. as you have. But then at the same time, if you're putting out content every day, you're gonna say a lot of things that contradict each other and stuff like that, so ...

9. 29:56 – 33:57

   Gary V and hustle culture: sleep deprivation, idol worship, and ‘can I have a hug?’

   1. CWChris Williamson29:56

      Mm-hmm. Yeah, he's a unique guy, Gary. So my, my only, like, so my major gripe, I'm gonna go off on a Gary tangent for like one minute. My major gripe-

   2. MWMike Winnet30:03

      Oh, great. I get loads of stuff about Gary, by the way. People now think that I'm like-

   3. CWChris Williamson30:06

      Best buds with him.

   4. MWMike Winnet30:07

      Yeah. Yeah. Like, I've met the guy once.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:09

      (laughs)

   6. MWMike Winnet30:10

      And he said he was gonna introduce us to Netflix. He's still not managed to do that yet. So, like, I'm, I'm not a Gary V. fan.

   7. CWChris Williamson30:18

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MWMike Winnet30:18

      I'm not a Gary V. hater. Gary V. is just a guy that runs a business and could potentially help me out or not. That's it, as far as I'm concerned.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:23

      Well, fuck me. Like, Gary, Gary's contacts are unbelievable. So I'm good friends with the guys from Social Chain, which isn't far from you in Manchester.

   10. MWMike Winnet30:29

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:29

       Big social media agency. Good, good friends with Dom, who's the COO and-... a bunch of the guys that were there from the start. And I, I discussed this with, about, about Gary there. And my, my only, my major concern about Gary is that he doesn't sleep enough.

   12. MWMike Winnet30:42

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:42

       That's my major concern. I'm just thinking, there's a couple of immutable truths in life, right? And, like, not sleeping equals earlier death and Alzheimer's.

   14. MWMike Winnet30:53

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson30:53

       Like, that's, that is a fact. Same as dropping a ball from a height. Like, it is, it's coming for you, Gary, 'cause there's some toxins in your brain that really, really need to fuck off. And all your myelins-

   16. MWMike Winnet31:03

       It's dan-... It's dangerous, isn't it? This whole work, you know, till your eyes bleed, that mentality, it's dangerous. I get you have to work hard, but you can't sustain that for 23 hours a day for three years, five years, 10 years, because all you're doing is it's got, it's a reaction or a consequence of that is you're shortening your life by 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. So yeah, some of the advice he gives, I think, is, is bullshit. But then, but you all know this from the internet, I think on the internet people think if you like someone, you have to agree with everything they say. They say one thing you disagree with, it's like, "I hate that person now. I don't like that person now." So I don't agree with loads of things my friends say. You don't fall out with them or whatever. It's like they say some things, it's true. They say something that's bullshit. You just... But with the internet, it's crazy, isn't it? It's like people are like, "I love Gary. Everything he says is gospel." Well, don't say, don't think that. It's stupid if you think that, do you know what I mean? And I think sometimes people take everything he says as, as gospel and, like, you've got to do that. You don't. I think a lot of the stuff he says is bullshit if I'm honest.

   17. CWChris Williamson32:02

       Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're totally right. The, uh, overworking thing, I, I've done it, and you may have done it as well in the past, like, in your 20s, Jordan Peterson, again, to, to sing his praises, he says that everybody in their 20s who's an entrepreneur, it would be a good idea for them to work out just how much they can work. So it's like in your 20s, you don't have sufficient responsibilities that are going to hold you back from working to your maximum capacity. And he actually suggests that for short periods, see if you can do 14-hour days six days a week and see what happens. And I-

   18. MWMike Winnet32:30

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson32:30

       I, I didn't do it by design, but I, I've, I've done that more by neuroticism, I think but, um, and fear. But, um, yeah, (laughs) I've, I've done that and I've played around with that. And then he's saying, "Well, okay, now see what happens if you only work two days a week." And I've also tried doing that. Um, the two days a week for me personally was a lot worse 'cause of the cabin fever than the 14 hours. But I think you're right. Gary, you have put the words hustle and grind on the bottom of Perroquet Swiss.

   20. MWMike Winnet32:57

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson32:57

       Like as soon as you've, as soon as you've done that, you, uh, you're kind of, you're kind of out of the chill, out of, from work conversation. Like, that's you over there with your hustle and grind shoes on.

   22. MWMike Winnet33:07

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson33:07

       Uh... (laughs)

   24. MWMike Winnet33:08

       Yeah, at that, uh, at, at that event wh- that we went to, I went to a Success Resour- Sources event and Gary was there. And, um, just seeing people with his trainers on and that-

   25. CWChris Williamson33:17

       (laughs)

   26. MWMike Winnet33:17

       ... and, like, seeing p- pro- peop- like grown men queuing 'cause you p- you paid... If you wanted, like, a, a diamond ticket so you could sit two rows closer than the people that paid 10 times less, sat behind you-

   27. CWChris Williamson33:28

       (laughs)

   28. MWMike Winnet33:28

       ... and you got to ask Gary a question. Grown men in their K-Swiss Hustle and Dirt clouds and whatever it is, Heaven and Hell shoes, whatever bullshit it was, uh, they were wearing. Um, one question you can ask Gary V., this is the guy that you, you know, you worship, you idolize. Just, "Can I have a hug?" Grown men saying, "Can I have a hug?" And I was just like, "What's this world come to?" Like, you could ask them anything about business. You could ask him... But that's what it came down to. I thought, "It's just a weird kind of world we live in."

   29. CWChris Williamson33:55

       What a bizarre situation. So-

   30. MWMike Winnet33:57

       Yeah. (laughs)

10. 33:57 – 39:09

    The Contrapreneur Formula: the repeatable live-event script Mike and Ian reverse-engineered

    1. CWChris Williamson33:57

       ... getting back to the Contrapreneur, can you take us through the Contrapreneur Formula, please?

    2. MWMike Winnet34:04

       Yeah. So the Contrapreneur Formula was after going to numerous events and live events like say the 10X, the Success Resources and property shows and any- any of these, like, type of events that you see all the time advertised, what I started to notice, almost verbatim, was the same script used by every single speaker. It turns out, by the way, I can't remember the guy's name now, there's a, a trainer that trains these people on, you know, that script, which I may or may not be signed up to go to, but-

    3. CWChris Williamson34:35

       (laughs) Yes.

    4. MWMike Winnet34:37

       But... So, uh, to the point where, so, uh, Ian is my business partner. He was also in the old business as well.

    5. CWChris Williamson34:44

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MWMike Winnet34:44

       Uh, he's like a, um... We're slowly getting him in shot a few times. He just like, he's like a poster.

    7. CWChris Williamson34:48

       Is he the bigger dude?

    8. MWMike Winnet34:50

       Uh, don't tell... Don't say that. He's been, uh... (laughs) Yeah, yeah, he is. We look very similar, I think.

    9. CWChris Williamson34:54

       Yeah, you do.

    10. MWMike Winnet34:55

        Yeah, yeah. Um, he watches as well. Uh, yeah, so-

    11. CWChris Williamson35:00

        Sorry, sorry, Ian. You look, you look great, man.

    12. MWMike Winnet35:02

        He is... There you go. Yeah, so, um, yeah, so, to the point where me and Ian could almost look at each other and say the next bit they'll talk about a bullshit backstory and say, "Ah, here's the time where they, they were the one that, you know, went out on a limb and they got this amazing opportunity." Three, two, one, "Hey, and then my daughter twisted her ankle, and then the coach came over and it was like, uh, well, a player twisted their ankle and the coach came and said, 'Has anybody brought the boots?' Yes, my daughter was there, good to go, and she got in the game.'" And, and literally I could, I can word for word say exactly what they say. And we're like, "This is absolute bullshit." So we just thought, "Why don't we write these scripts from these shows and actually test what these people say?" So when they were saying stuff like, "This is a once in a lifetime opportunity, I'm never gonna offer this price again," we thought, "That's really interesting." We'll just go to your next show that you're doing in two weeks time at a different place and we'll just check, fact check everything that you say. And we found out that they were lying 'cause it was exactly the same pitch, it was exactly the same price. And the show that they said they weren't gonna do ever again, they were doing in three weeks time at a different venue, to the point where we started seeing the same plants in the crowd at different events. So they are paid for professional customers that get dead excited, rush up first, because some of them were working on reception, signing us in, register- uh, uh, registration at some events, but then they were in the crowd running onto stage, "Let me sign up now." So we just started to notice, like, a lot of strange things happening and we just thought, "This is quite funny. Why don't we turn this into a program or an episode on, and put it on YouTube?" And we called it The Contrapreneur Formula Exposed. And, um, that's what we did. So we explained about...... the use of a ... So bullshit backstory, there's always a warmup act. They get you to commit. So they get you to commit ... Uh, all these events start off with, they make you lift- raise your hands. And it's, uh, very much like hypnosis. So it'll be, so, "Who here wants more money?" Everybody's hand goes up. "Who here would like more time?" Everyone's hand up. "Who here thinks they deserve more?" Everybody's hand goes up. If someone didn't put their hand up, they would be singled out and, uh, it was like a, a shaming practice. So they would say, "Oh, you sir, mister, I've got, I've got enough money. You don't need enough money." And then from that point on, he would always ... But it was, it's part of the show. It's part of the whole, "Oh, shit. If I don't put my hand up, I'm gonna be shamed." No one likes to be shamed in front of a, a big crowd. So there was shaming. Then there was the bullshit, bullshit backstory of, "I was sat just where you were two years ago. I was working 60-hour weeks for a boss that doesn't appreciate me and I had mortgage payments and ... You know, you can think about this for a year and you're still gonna be in the same position, but you need to take this opportunity now, grasp it." It's all, um, is it, uh, Cialdini? Cialdini? You know, The Influence? It, it, it follows that process.

    13. CWChris Williamson37:45

        Yeah. Robert, Robert Cialdini, yeah, yeah.

    14. MWMike Winnet37:47

        Yeah. So it follows that process. And then, um, "Well, I took the opportunity and, you know, what, what will you lose if you don't do this?" And then it would be the amazing opportunity presents itself. "I took the first step, you can take the first step today." And then it comes down to, um, testimonials. "So here are people that were just like you from last year on the other stage," which turns out, now obviously I've been to a lot of these events, some of these are professional testimonials. They go to all these events and read out the same script. So I've seen the same two or three people at different events saying, "Yes, I signed up to this course." So it's cool.

    15. CWChris Williamson38:23

        Different people? Different, different events for different speakers?

    16. MWMike Winnet38:26

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson38:27

        Wow. Wow, okay. So there's, there's even, like, these mini, (laughs) mini industries for people facilitating these people?

    18. MWMike Winnet38:35

        Yeah, yeah, of course. Yes ...

    19. CWChris Williamson38:36

        (laughs) Oh, God.

    20. MWMike Winnet38:38

        But I'm not ... I've not gone, "Let's go and expose this." I've just been going there to say, "Let's go and find some stuff to invest in. Wow, that's the same girl that was in Birmingham three weeks ago that ran on stage. What is she doing running on stage at this event?"

    21. CWChris Williamson38:54

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MWMike Winnet38:55

        "Oh, shit, that's the same person that rushed to the back of the room to sign up for the course at that event. Oh, hang about, why's she signing us in today when she was the testimonial three weeks ago?"

    23. CWChris Williamson39:04

        Mm-hmm.

    24. MWMike Winnet39:05

        "This seems a bit weird." And it's almost, almost ... It was amusing to us.

    25. CWChris Williamson39:09

        Yeah.

11. 39:09 – 47:43

    Fake proof and engineered urgency: plants, recycled testimonials, inflated value, and fake scarcity

    1. MWMike Winnet39:09

       It was just funny to us. Like, wow, this is so ... It's so bullshit, it's unreal. Um, so that was all, that's what it was. And then it'd be, um, scarcity. So, "Oh, by the way, you know ..." Oh, no. Um, increase the value. "So normally my product's 30,000 pounds. Or sorry, 29,997," 'cause it's always a weird price. Um, "But today, because you guys have took the first step, you know, I'm gonna sell this price for 397 pound." It's like, you're not gonna give someone like 98% off.

    2. CWChris Williamson39:38

       (laughs)

    3. MWMike Winnet39:38

       If it was really worth the 50 grand, you wouldn't be selling it for 99% off, would you? It's like, it's never been that price, just ... So it's the same inflated value. And then often it was ... So then everyone's get excited and then the first three or four people get up to, you know, sign up and ... By the way, we've only got 10 of these left today. They say there's 10 left, so it's fake scarcity. I've got no problem with these tactics when they're real. Real testimonials are cool.

    4. CWChris Williamson40:03

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MWMike Winnet40:04

       Uh, you know, "I'm a genuine advocate of that product. It's helped me."

    6. CWChris Williamson40:07

       (clears throat)

    7. MWMike Winnet40:08

       Um, "That product was really 30,000 pounds and it's a genuine discount. You can get it for 15,000 pound." All them things are cool and they are real sales tactics that work. It's the intent of the person using them and whether it's fake or authentic. That's what I've got a problem with. You know, if you're a good person trying to give someone a good product that's valuable and will help them achieve their goals, these tactics are perfectly fine, in my opini- my view. But fake testimonials, fake scarcity, people pretending to be customers in the audience rushing to the back of the room, that's not cool, in my mind. So yeah, they'd rush to the back of the room, they'd say there was only 10 of these products left. They'd still take money from 70 people with no due diligence. It wasn't like, "Well, can you afford to do this?" Um, "Are you in a position to pay this 2,000 pound now?" People are paying on credit cards. I've seen young lads signing up to property courses age 16, 17. They can't get a mortgage at that age, so why are you allowing them to sign up to your property course? Now, I get that some people watching will say, "Well, it's their own fault for signing up." Uh, yes, I get that. But a 16, 17-year-old lad in that scenario, that's not world-wise and has just been sold the dream that he can be financially free and not have to work again and ... They even say stuff ... Sorry to have gone off, off on a tangent. They even say stuff like, um, "Your friends and family won't understand this. If you talk to them, they'll tell you that it's not worth doing it." It's almost like isolating you from sort of logical ... They're losers. They've never achieved it. They bought the pill that you go ... Y- you know, they've swallowed the bullshit that you go to college and you're working nine to five and it's 40 hours a week and you struggle all your life to pay off your mortgage. It's very clever what they do. Anyway, so then they, they sell you the, well the fake scarcity, they sign you up and then before you know it you're in the sales funnel and then they're offering you upsell, upsell, upsell at every single stage to the point where they offer you the chance to come and talk at their event at a testimonial as part of their premium package. And I know people that are on stage in Florida talking at an event to convince other people that their business has been transformed since they've signed up. But I know these people, I know their business 'cause they are friends of mine, and they're not making any more money now than they were six months ago when they signed up to this course. They've just spent an awful lot of money to have a few pictures with celebrities, hang around with these business mentors, and now convince other people that these scams work. Does that make sense?

    8. CWChris Williamson42:31

       It's incredibly predatory. That's the first thing that comes to mind. Especially when you're talking about young people, vulnerable people. Like, obviously if you were in a stable, happy life with a job that you loved...You wouldn't be, like, going to see Robert fucking Kiyosaki at The Sage in Gateshead or something like that. You wouldn't be doing that. So first off, they're already, uh, selecting for the people who want this to be the answer to their problems, which in, suggests that those people have problems. Uh, then they're using tactics which are, are purposefully manipulative.

    9. MWMike Winnet43:06

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson43:06

        Neurolinguistic programming, the stuff from Ro- Bob Cialdini, uh, I've had, uh, Rory Sutherland on who's a friend of Bob's, and he was talking about how powerful that stuff is. I've also had Robert Greene, the guy that wrote, uh, uh, 48 Laws of Power and Mastery and Laws of Human Nature and stuff like that. I don't know whether you know this, but the reason that Robert Greene, uh, made, uh, 48 Laws of Power the way that he did, he says that it is, um, a cookbook with ingredients but not a recipe.

    11. MWMike Winnet43:36

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson43:36

        And the reason that he did that was so that bad actors couldn't use the tools-

    13. MWMike Winnet43:42

        Oh, yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson43:42

        ... in a manipulative fashion. And the fact that fucking Robert Greene, five times over New York Times bestselling author, is having to, like, nerf his own products to stop bad actors like these ones-

    15. MWMike Winnet43:56

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson43:56

        ... getting ahold of his tactics and using them to then manipulate people. And then on top of that, to, like, finish off, the whole... I mean, I'm a club promoter, right? That's my business. I run nightclubs. I have done for 13 years. And we use some scarcity, we'll hold the queue 20% longer than we need to. We'll slow the entry-

    17. MWMike Winnet44:14

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson44:14

        ... 'cause if you're walking past a club that's got a big old queue outside, you're like, "Oh, fucking hell." There we go, a bit of social equity, a little bit of, you know, uh, uh, uh, associated, uh, high esteem if you're going to that venue. But there's a big difference between slowing a queue down by, like, 20% and paying people to sprint to the back of a venue to spend five grand on a thing when you're surrounded by vulnerable people who've just been told, "Buy now. If you buy now, then you can buy now, and you need to buy now." Like, if you keep on repeating-

    19. MWMike Winnet44:42

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson44:43

        ... these things and using these tactics, it's incredibly manipulative. And obviously, the worst thing is it's fucking effective.

    21. MWMike Winnet44:48

        Yeah. Uh, I've got the, the, the one on the buy now thing. So, um, the script that we recorded, we were at a, a branded event. So it was an event where a guy said, uh, "Boost your business." It was a crazy claim. He could change any business from his, um, business plan he was going to give you for 3-9-7, uh, three h- 397 pound, which is usually, uh, $5,000 but, uh, 5,000 pounds, 397. It was basically-

    22. CWChris Williamson45:11

        Yeah.

    23. MWMike Winnet45:11

        ... a, a GCSE business, bus- like plan. You c- you can download it online. It's bullshit. Anyway, he would turn your business into a 10 million pound business in eight months, which is a mad claim when you don't know the sector of the people that are in your audience or what they're like as individuals. But people swallowed it. 70 people got up and signed up. Um, now, in the close of his pitch, he said, "Buy now," 23 times in the three minutes leading up to the price reveal. Um, and it was ridiculous. It was like, "Buy now. You realize you can't miss an opportunity like this. Um, if you follow this step by step, um, buy now." It was like, everything was like, it was like, "Buy, buy, buy, buy," to the point where w- like we're laughing. We find it funny. Interestingly as well, in the crowd, when some people... It's like hypnosis and they kind of weed out the people it won't work on. So they get rid of people that are negative from the crowd. They get told not to come back or they get, th- they get moved constantly. There's people in the audience being moved and it's really-

    24. CWChris Williamson46:10

        Did anyone just refuse? Because especially being British and being as disagreeable as I am, if someone came over and I was sat down in a seat and they said, "You didn't put your hand up when you said, 'Do you want more money or more time?' " or something like that, like I'd, I, I wouldn't move. But were, are people-

    25. MWMike Winnet46:25

        Yeah, I-

    26. CWChris Williamson46:25

        ... just so into it that they're already getting shifted around or...

    27. MWMike Winnet46:29

        Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's strange. It's like, have you ever watched, um... This will sound weird. Now, I used to live in Ibiza for... A long time ago, I used to live in Ibiza and there used to be a team of pickpockets that worked on the street below the apartments I used to live at. And I used to watch them every night. And I used to... To the point where I c- I could see the signals that like one would flash his lighter, then the, the, the crowd would start moving. It was all basically Yeah. And the s- the s- the street would stand still until someone came either drunk or intoxicated. The sign would be given to let people know whether it was, it was under the influence of drugs or drink. And then literally, a ball would roll out into the, into the street. A woman would walk past, bump him, and I'd see, I'd see people get pick-pocketed over and over again. The scenes in these rooms are very similar to that. It's like people move at exactly the same times when I've seen the same show at different events. People, it, it, it's so... It sounds like I'm crazy explaining it, but when you've seen that many people at these events and you've seen so many of these events, you'll realize the whole psychology of the event and everything is set up for you to, um, spend your money basically. And anybody that doesn't sch- look like they are going to do that, they get rid of them. So-

12. 47:43 – 51:12

    The high-pressure environment: decision fatigue, tripwires, upsells, and who survives the break

    1. CWChris Williamson47:43

       The main thing that I, I'm struck by there, apart from the fact it's manipulative and, and, and is taking advantage of vulnerable people, is how fucking sophisticated it is.

    2. MWMike Winnet47:51

       Yeah, it was big business though, isn't it? So say these events, um, I don't know, say it's a Success Resources event, however much that person on stage sells, they have to pay 50% to Success Resources. That's how it works.

    3. CWChris Williamson48:05

       Mm-hmm.

    4. MWMike Winnet48:05

       So it's big business, so that's why they want to fill the rooms. That's why they get people to move forward so it looks busier. That's why everybody in that room wants you to spend money. So no one's there trying to help you. If it's not right for you, they're not going to say, "Do you know what?" And I think that's why people leave of their own accord because they realize it's bullshit, but everybody else around them is like wooping, st- stood up. I remember speaking to one woman there. She didn't have a business and she went and spent 2,000 pound... Well, it was 1,997, 1,997 on a course to brand her business. And I actually said to her, "What, what are you doing?"And she went, "Oh, no. I couldn't ... This is it, this is what I needed to put." You've not got a business or service or product that you sell, so what are they going to brand? "Oh, it doesn't matter. They'll help me come up with an idea for a business." And I just think there's people like that that ... She was paying on a credit card. She's not got a business. She's not got a service. Why are they taking the 2,000 pound off her to help her brand her business that doesn't even exist yet? It's-

    5. CWChris Williamson49:05

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MWMike Winnet49:06

       It- it kind of blew my mind really. But yeah, a lot of people get up and leave. Um, they don't let you eat or drink in there, um, because then you get, uh, it's called dec- decision fatigue.

    7. CWChris Williamson49:16

       Yep.

    8. MWMike Winnet49:16

       So th- they make you- they make you stay for like four or five hours before you get your first break. But then after that break, the numbers have dwindled massively because most people realize this is a pitch-fest, I'm not coming back. So anybody that returns after that break, they're more likely to buy.

    9. CWChris Williamson49:29

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MWMike Winnet49:29

        And now, it ... They're higher product. So what happens is, is a ... I call it a tripwire. It's a lower value product to start with. Who takes the bait, right? If 70 people have signed up now, we could probably sell them the five rounds, um, product in the afternoon. And then the following day it could be, "Well, now we'll get the mentoring." But the following day some people think, "Shit, I spent five grand there. I'll regret it." And they've got, you know, buyer's remorse. So the next day the numbers are a lot less but ... The numbers are a lot less but they are the most qualified people and they have bought into your bullshit the most. And they're buying 20, 30 grand mentorships (...)

    11. CWChris Williamson50:00

        They're the warmest leads that you're ever gonna have in your life, hey?

    12. MWMike Winnet50:03

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah, of course. And don't get me wrong. If this product really did work, I'd be all for it. I would be saying, you know, but look at the stats. The stats show that maybe 1% of these people ... What, 1% of people are successful through these courses. But it's weird, the only people I've met that are successful through these are actually part of the organization or selling you that product. So I've not met someone that's made a million dollars through the 10X course, let's just say, through Grant Cardone's university or Cardone Capital. I'm just ... It's a- it's a random example, by the way. I'm not saying it's him.

    13. CWChris Williamson50:37

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MWMike Winnet50:37

        It's just a random example. Yet, I can show you 10, 15, 20, 10X affiliate resellers that will be telling me that Grant Cardone has changed their life and they are millionaires.

    15. CWChris Williamson50:48

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MWMike Winnet50:49

        You're selling his product. You've not made your money through the thing that he says that we are going to make our money from. You are making it, your money through selling the thing that he says we are going to make our money from. And that ... I'm yet to meet anyone 100% unbiased and independent that's gone, "Actually, yeah, no, I've- I invested in Cardone Capital, I'm a millionaire now." Not one person. I mean, if you are out there, get in touch.

13. 51:12 – 58:19

    The video gets pulled: Russell Brunson/ClickFunnels copyright strike and the Streisand effect

    1. CWChris Williamson51:12

       Yep. Link is in the show notes below, come and email us. So moving on. Uh, this really cool, very interesting documentary blows up on YouTube. I enjoyed it, thankfully, um, and then what happened?

    2. MWMike Winnet51:25

       Uh, so, uh, oh, I only found out on Saturday. So Saturday, uh, Ian sent me a message saying there's been a copyright strike or there's a strike against our channel. And Russell Brunson from ClickFunnels, who provides the software that many of these entrepreneurs use to, obviously if you click on their advert and sell you their content, uh, put a copyright claim in. And the video has now disappeared, and it has been pulled so we are putting a counterclaim. All because we used a one-second clip of the back of Russell Brunson coming out at the 10X conference, and that's what he said was, uh, copyright infringement. We don't think it'll stand but it's not-

    3. CWChris Williamson52:05

       What was the sc- what's the specific scene? Sorry.

    4. MWMike Winnet52:08

       So at the beginning, there's a sort of, um, an intro to it. It was just showing like different events where people are dead excited, people rushing to the back of the room, people putting their hands up. So it was all like clips taken from all these different types-

    5. CWChris Williamson52:19

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MWMike Winnet52:19

       ... of events that we'd been going to.

    7. CWChris Williamson52:20

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MWMike Winnet52:21

       And then there's a- the back of Russell Brunson walking onto stage and then puts his arms out in front of the crowds. You know, it's like a proper moment, like, here I am. Uh, yes, so it was a one-second clip of him there and he's put in a copyright claim to get the video removed. (...)

    9. CWChris Williamson52:35

       Russell Brunson's put a copyright claim in against the back of his own head?

    10. MWMike Winnet52:39

        Yeah, yeah. Uh, to be honest, you wouldn't have been able to tell it was Russell Brunson. But now you can because he's put a copyright claim in, so-

    11. CWChris Williamson52:46

        Russell Brunson knows the back of his own head very well.

    12. MWMike Winnet52:49

        Yeah, yeah. Maybe he has mirrors in his house.

    13. CWChris Williamson52:52

        (laughs)

    14. MWMike Winnet52:52

        Two mirrors. I don't know. You know. Or spends a lot of time at the hairdresser's.

    15. CWChris Williamson52:57

        Perhaps.

    16. MWMike Winnet52:57

        But now all he's going to make me do is I will cut that image from the re-upload and I will name him, saying, "Insert back of Russell Brunson's head here."

    17. CWChris Williamson53:10

        (laughs)

    18. MWMike Winnet53:11

        Where that, where that clip would have been. And then put the video out again. So it's not copyright infringement now. And now you will be the only person named in that video.

    19. CWChris Williamson53:20

        Oh, Russ-

    20. MWMike Winnet53:21

        Because no one else was named. No one was named in that video before, it didn't point anything at any one in- person in particular. So for you to actually make it about you (...)

    21. CWChris Williamson53:30

        You've poked your head above the parapet, Russell, and now-

    22. MWMike Winnet53:32

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson53:33

        ... ClickFunnels is, uh, is in the crosshairs.

    24. MWMike Winnet53:36

        But what's funny now, uh, so there's been videos made about it being pulled, which I didn't know. There's a guy called Meet Kevin, I don't know if you know him, on YouTube, he's got like, um, about 150,000 subscribers. And he did a big video about it. And he did a big video about ClickFunnels and him being friends with Grant Cardone and saying that it's a bad look, like, "Why have you even..." Basically he said, "I've only got 17,000 subscribers. Not many people have seen this video." But now because you've pulled it down and it's all over the internet saying, "Video no longer available," but it actually says who's made the copyright claim.

    25. CWChris Williamson54:06

        Yes.

    26. MWMike Winnet54:06

        So now it ... I- I- I mean, I don't know how this works. I don't know anything about YouTube really. But so now, in- in a lot of people's minds, The Entrepreneur Formula is about Russell Brunson. But weirdly, he was named in the comments so many times saying, "Oh, this is like the book that Russell Brunson's got on telling you how to sell to people."

    27. CWChris Williamson54:25

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MWMike Winnet54:25

        So maybe he's, he's thought, "Do you know what? This is basically the contents of my book that I sell." And it's given-

    29. CWChris Williamson54:31

        Might just be giving my book away for free.

    30. MWMike Winnet54:32

        ... Probably.
14. 58:19 – 1:03:57

    Unwanted ‘watchdog’ status: DMs, demands for justice, and backlash from both sides

    1. MWMike Winnet58:19

       Um... That kind of stuff. Yeah, so a bit interesting really. But, but it's the first time... To be honest, the YouTube thing has been affecting me a little bit in a weird way. It's cool that a lot of people are watching it, but now I'm get, I'm getting hundreds of emails, and I'm getting hundreds of messages. And I didn't want... I, I don't want to sound like I'm not grateful, but I didn't want this. I didn't want to be the Ann Widdecombe or the watchdog of online entrepreneurs. That was never my intention. So as much as it's nice that people tell me who I should be investigating, why I should be investigating them, telling me all about how they've been scammed, I've not got the time to take individual people's cases and say, "Right, I'm going to try and get you back your six grand that you spent with this contrapreneur," or... But I think people think I can or that's what I want to do. It... Does that make sense? It sounds like I'm being ungrateful No, no, no.

    2. CWChris Williamson59:10

       Yeah.

    3. MWMike Winnet59:10

       I totally understand. It's like people are seeing you as like Dog the Bounty Hunter, like Mike, Mike the Contrapreneur Hunter. Yeah, or like Citizens Advice Bureau and stuff like that. And that's, that's becoming quite difficult to manage. It's almost like... Because weirdly as well, someone will ask or say something complimentary about watching it or someone that I should investigate. And if I don't respond within 20 minutes, then all of a sudden it's like giving me loads of abuse. And it's like, come on now.

    4. CWChris Williamson59:38

       Well, it's obvious that people's emotions-

    5. MWMike Winnet59:39

       So, I mean, (overlapping dialogue)

    6. CWChris Williamson59:40

       ... pe- people's emotions are quite heated here, aren't they? Because potentially, if they have had their fingers burned, they're then looking for you as this potential savior. And then when you don't appear to be that savior, they're then, uh, redirecting that, th- those feelings that they've got towards whoever it might be, contrapreneur X, and they're redirecting them towards you.

    7. MWMike Winnet1:00:03

       Yeah, it's mad. Uh, here's one. So I had a, an interview with someone that a lot of people said was a contrapreneur. Now, I have never been to this guy's live events or live shows. So I interviewed him and let him talk, let him talk, let him talk. Now, my own gut feeling was he's not being truthful with just his body language, the way he wouldn't answer questions, the way... Politician-type answers. He wouldn't answer a direct question with a direct answer. So that would suggest he was... Anyway, in the comments, people were saying, "You should have brought this up about him. You should have brought this up. This happens at his event." It probably does, but I have not seen those things happen. And you're talking about things that have happened to you personally that I don't know. Do you see what I mean?

    8. CWChris Williamson1:00:46

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MWMike Winnet1:00:46

       Oh, you should have... If I pushed this guy too hard in the first two minutes of an interview, called him out, "You're a liar, you do this, you do that," he'd have got up and walked out. There wouldn't have been any video for you to watch on YouTube.... it would have been him sat down with me saying, "Oh, this is the guy here. I think you're a contrapreneur. I've tricked you. You've come down here. I'm going to call you out as a contrapreneur. You do lie to people, you do rip people off." He gets up and walks out. Two-minute YouTube video, everyone's going to go, "Oh, he didn't answer a single question." So it's like... It's weird, isn't it? So I'm kind of getting shit from the people that support what we're doing and then the people that don't like what we're doing as well.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:01:18

        Mm. Yeah. On bo- on both sides.

    11. MWMike Winnet1:01:21

        Yeah. It's, it's a mad... It's a... I know... When really, I'm not trying to expose people. I am letting you see how successful or unsuccessful my personal investments are in these different passive income streams. Not, "Tai Lopez is an idiot. I'm going to fly to his house and punch him in the face," which is what some people want me to do.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:01:41

        Yeah.

    13. MWMike Winnet1:01:41

        No, I'll sign up to Tai Lopez's course. I will do his affiliate marketing course. Tai Lopez says, "I make a million pounds a year." I make 500 pounds a year. I will say Tai Lopez's course is bullshit. That's it. I'm not going to get Tai Lopez in a headlock and, you know, hope-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:01:57

        Well, you are, you are from Warrington, mate, so he might be quite hard.

    15. MWMike Winnet1:02:00

        I don't care. No, I don't know. (laughs) well, I'm at the posh end of Warrington now, so...

    16. CWChris Williamson1:02:05

        Oh, okay. Oh, you've moved, you've moved up in the world now.

    17. MWMike Winnet1:02:08

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:02:08

        You'd have to, you'd have to fence him or something like that, wouldn't you? You'd have to offer him out in a duel.

    19. MWMike Winnet1:02:12

        Ian's from the, uh, top part of Warrington.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:02:14

        Send Ian in.

    21. MWMike Winnet1:02:15

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:02:15

        Send Ian in here-

    23. MWMike Winnet1:02:15

        I know, yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:02:16

        ... he'll do Tai Lopez over. But yeah, I think, you know, to the people that are listening, and I'm going to guess, considering this is probably one of the first times I've seen you on another podcast or fe- featuring on something else.

    25. MWMike Winnet1:02:25

        First time in a long time, yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

        Wow. So, you know, there will be a lot of people listening who have seen you through that video. And I think it's really cool that you've, you've had the opportunity to kind of s- speak with this, um, big bird's eye perspective over exactly what it is that's happening, right?

    27. MWMike Winnet1:02:40

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson1:02:40

        Exactly what's, what's been going on and what you're trying to achieve with this stuff. And yeah, I, I wonder, I wonder how much of the heightened emotions are due to the fact that people want to believe... So some people want to believe in what they're being told by these contrapreneurs, and you being someone that calls it out as untrue is potentially killing the dream. So that's something that they're unhappy about.

    29. MWMike Winnet1:03:02

        Yeah, yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:03:02

        Then there's the other people on the other side of it who believe you so much or believe in the bull... That there... it is bullshit so much that they see you as, like, this harbinger of truth that's going to fly in and, like, pull out a AK-47 and just start, like, sniping people. There's those people as well.
15. 1:03:57 – 1:14:40

    “You’re the same as them”: monetization accusations, Mike’s real intent, and the role of luck

    1. MWMike Winnet1:03:57

       Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's, it's so mad. And then some people are like, "You're just the same as them." That, that's one of the, the biggest, um, accusations I get all the time. "You're e- you're doing the same... You're a contrapreneur. You're doing the same scam as them." And I ask the same question every time, "What am I selling you?" "Well, you've got adverts on your YouTube channel." How much are you paying to watch my content? The only adverts I get on my content are the adverts by contrapreneurs because they use the same tags I tag my stuff with. Now, I am building a crowd of people that don't like that shit. You know you get paid on people clicking the ads and buying the products. I have literally got the worst type of ads on my channel.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:04:37

       (laughs)

    3. MWMike Winnet1:04:38

       "Hi, do you want to buy my affiliate marketing course?" Skip ad. Affiliate marketing course is a bullshit.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:04:43

       (laughs)

    5. MWMike Winnet1:04:43

       So of course I'm not going to... You know? He isn't going to buy that affiliate marketing course and people can't get... "Yeah, you must be making loads of money on YouTube." No. Do you know what? And, uh... So quarter of a million, like, sort of 200,000 views on that, um, Contrapreneur Formula video. I think it was about... It was on something like $600, you know, in terms of ad revenue.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:05:03

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MWMike Winnet1:05:04

       And they're not going to pay me now because it's been pulled. So $600. But that video to make, we'd been to four different events. We stayed in hotels. We bought diamond tickets to sit at the front. It probably cost us £6,000, £7,000 to make that video-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:05:19

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MWMike Winnet1:05:19

       ... out of my own money. Uh, I'm not making money from this. What I make my money from is my investments, whether they make money, that's it.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:05:28

        Mm.

    11. MWMike Winnet1:05:28

        But some people seem to be, "Oh yeah, you are going to make money from this all." What course am I going to release? How to spot a contrapreneur course and I'll sell it for 397?

    12. CWChris Williamson1:05:36

        (laughs)

    13. MWMike Winnet1:05:37

        It makes no sense. It makes no sense.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:05:38

        That would be hilarious if you did, if this was a real long game for Mike Winnatt to release, uh, how to spot a contrapreneur course.

    15. MWMike Winnet1:05:45

        Someone said, "Oh yeah," and finally, it was all to get an Amazon bestseller. I said, "I sold 49 cop- uh, 49 copies of a 99p book." Bearing in mind you pay 70% royalty to Amazon. I made 30p a book. 30p a book on 49 books. Like, I've not wasted two years and £500,000 (laughs) to, to make...

    16. CWChris Williamson1:06:05

        (laughs)

    17. MWMike Winnet1:06:06

        But people just don't... I don't know. I think they want there to be some sort of big reveal to be like, "Ah, I told you so. This was the big thing." But it literally isn't. All I'm doing is doing what I wish was available two years ago. I wish there was a channel I could go to when I had some money to invest that would give me 100% unbiased advice or results of these different investment options. That's it. I'm just making the thing that I wish was there. Like when I did the e-learning business, I made e-learning I wish was available to me when I was doing e-learning. That's it. There's no hidden agenda. No big reveal. No, "Aha, I've just built a huge crowd and now you can come to see me talk for 5,000." None of it. It's... In a way, in a weird way, no, I wish there was because I could make a lot of money being stood on stage telling people how to make money from making online courses-

    18. CWChris Williamson1:06:54

        Mm-hmm.

    19. MWMike Winnet1:06:55

        ... because I became a... because I became a millionaire from doing that. I've probably got more right to be on stage telling you how to become a millionaire from online courses because I've genuinely done that thing.... but I don't think it's right because the reality is you could come to my office, Chris, and I could tell you exactly what I did day by day for two years and you could do exactly what I did. But the, the market is different now. The conditions are different now. There's so many variables that stopped that big million pound exit, five million pound exit, ten million pound exit that you can't dress it up in a course and tell people if they follow that step-by-step plan, they will get those results. That's the truth. But that's why I'm not on stage telling people how to become a millionaire through online courses. Because we were... We worked hard, we did all the right things, but ultimately it comes down to a huge element of luck. If somebody else values your business on that set day that you want to sell for what you want, and that can't be replicated through any course that you do or any mentorship. That's the truth. And sure, people don't like me saying that 99% of you won't, won't achieve that thing that we achieved. That's not me being a dick. And yes, you can say, "Well, you did it, so I can do it." Yes, that's true, but I didn't do it by going to an online course or signing up to a, a guru or doing a mentorship. I did it from working really, really hard. Didn't... Not paying myself for a few years. Um, employing people, paying staff before I paid myself, sacrificing holidays, doing all this stuff. Picking an industry where there wasn't the competition, not picking something that everyone seems to be doing, everyone seems to be getting rich. It's like finding a niche, marketing it, having a genuine USP, working really, really hard, taking massive risk, and being lucky enough to find someone that at that time was acquiring businesses in that sector so they could then sell their business a year later, 'cause the, the company that bought my business sold the business 12 months later from us.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:08:47

        What did... Do you know what they got?

    21. MWMike Winnet1:08:50

        Uh, this will be a sickener. So they bought us and they bought 13 other businesses.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:08:55

        Similar-

    23. MWMike Winnet1:08:55

        Um-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:08:55

        Similar sort of...

    25. MWMike Winnet1:08:56

        Yeah, it was all like, uh, online training, online learning. They've become, like one of the world's biggest learning platforms. They sold for $2.8 billion. So if you work out what our business made up of that, it probably would have been around about 20, 20... Between 20 and 22 million. But they did that nine months after they bought us. So in some regards, cool four lads from Warrington managed to make eight million quid and we walked away with two million quid each. The flip side is, we were the dickheads that left that much money on the table (laughs) and if we just worked hard for another 10 months, we could have made double, triple that money.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:09:33

        Whoa.

    27. MWMike Winnet1:09:35

        It's mad, innit? So, but, uh, sometimes, I try not to think about that too much. But, um, in one regards people say, "Oh, wow, it's amazing what you did." But, you know, another way, we might not have sold. There's different ways to look at it. Another way, we might not have sold, so we would never have known it would have been worth that much. But someone could see more value in it than what we put on the business. That's ultimately what you're looking for.

Episode duration: 1:20:44