The Dark Side of Fitness: “I Starved Myself Until I Fainted" - Will Tennyson (4K)

Chris Williamson 0:00 You became fat for a day. What was that like?

Will Tennyson 0:04 It was a lot more like... A trip to the past than I expected it to be, actually.

Chris Williamson 0:09 Because you were fat for more than a day as well-

Will Tennyson 0:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:11 ... previously.

Will Tennyson 0:12 I mean, I mean, obviously not to the extent that I was, but the biggest issue that I, I had growing up as a kid, and I kind of still deal with today, is just like people's perceptions of you, how you think other people see you, and feeling like you're always being watched with everything that you do. And I'm, I'm k- I've been getting better at that, you know, as, as time goes on. But when I was filming that video, I just... Even though I wasn't, that wasn't me, like, it, it scared me.

Chris Williamson 0:37 Could you explain what you did?

Will Tennyson 0:38 Yeah. So, I, I found this, um, company that, like, they make o- obese suits for these medical companies, for like nurses, doctors, to actually put them on and like to actually understand how to maneuver obese people, like on like a, on a bed, off a bed, you know, just to fully understand just like the transportation techniques. So I found that, and um, you know, I wanted to experience, you know, just what it was like, not even at the weight, because it wasn't an actual weighted thing, but just more like that circumference and just how hard it is to, you know, get into a car and, or just to do anything. And um, I don't know-

Chris Williamson 1:11 How, how heavy was the size that you were? Like, what would it be the equivalent of?

Will Tennyson 1:15 600 pounds. Yeah. So I've done a fat suit video before and it was just like the belly and I looked pregnant, but this was like I went full out, got my face done, and um, I couldn't even fit in my tr- my truck. Got an UberXL, like you walk into the gym, everyone's looking at you, either like laughing, smiling, or they just, they just don't even want to make eye contact with you. And then you just feel like you're this, this spectacle. No one, like no one's afraid to point at you, laugh, and it was very... like it, it... you, you can notice my, my emotions very much so just completely... like I, I start off joking, like I always do in my videos-

Chris Williamson 1:50 Yup, yup.

Will Tennyson 1:50 ... like make it lighthearted and... Lighthearted but with like n- not, nothing crazy. But then as the video goes, I start to actually like get affected by it. I didn't even notice it until I actually watched the footage back and I'm like... I really wanted to get it off. Like I felt like I was like... I wanted to like rip it off by the end 'cause it, it's very much so like... it took me back, which makes me emotional.

Chris Williamson 2:14 What does that make you thi- you know, the, the fitness industry has a lot of, uh, laying at the feet of people that are overweight, "Well, you know, eat less, move more. Come on, we've got the opportunity out there, just stay out of the middle of the supermarket," et cetera. Did it give you a different perspective, empathy for people that are that size?

Will Tennyson 2:33 M- definitely, because it's not as easy as just like, you know, pe- people say, "Put the fork down. Stop eating." There's a lot more shit that goes on with it. Like, one of the things that I talked about... there's a guy named Brentley who I interviewed in the video. He's 575. He was 575 pounds. He's lost 250 pounds. He's 26 years old. And he was like, "I can feel great about myself, but when I go out and see how other people look at me, that influences how I see myself."

Chris Williamson 3:02 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 3:03 "And then I stop going out and doing the things that I love 'cause I feel like people don't want me there." And it's really hard to kind of keep a positive mindset.

Chris Williamson 3:11 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 3:11 And he said, it was something like, it was like really sc- like, it, it was making me almost cry, but he... I said, "When did you notice, like you... when did you kind of realize that you wanted to lose weight?" He said, "I was in my grandma's basement, and then all of a sudden I just woke up from this fog, and then I went to the mirror and I looked at myself and I started to, to panic, and I, I l- and I wanted to start grabbing all the fat off my body 'cause I was so scared of how fat I was." So I think it's just... I wanted to show people it's much deeper than just like, "Oh, you're fat. Stop eating, go to the gym." There's a lot more that's involved in the situation. And uh, that's kind of why I think I was a lot bigger for a long time, you know? It's, it's, it's very hard to just make that jump to start completely changing your lifestyle 'cause we like comfort, you know? We like our usual routine. And then the second you kinda start something new, it's scary.

Chris Williamson 4:01 Yeah. What

Chris Williamson 4:02 was your previous relationship with food and weight?

Will Tennyson 4:05 Mine's very interesting because even though I gained a lot of weight, I wasn't necessarily eating badly. Like, I'd be like the first person that you probably ever hear of, like we're at dinner, like, like we're at the house... My mom makes healthy food, chicken, rice, salad, but she'd be like, "Will, you don't need more salad, man." Like, I'd, I'd just be overeating salad, like ev- like, it'd be like... it's just ridiculous. My appetite was crazy. Um, yeah, it was just like, it was so much food. I'd get home from school. I would have like dinner, like, like, uh, like whatever the leftovers were from la- like last night's dinner, I would have that, go downstairs, play video games, come back up, have another dinner, and then, you know, a couple hours go by, I'd have a snack. Like, it was just never really ending. But then the interesting thing was, I was actually like also quite active at the same time. I was playing hockey at a high level, too.

Chris Williamson 4:52 Like a good Canadian.

Will Tennyson 4:53 Yeah. Everyone was just like, "This guy is like big, but he's fast and he can hit." And um, you know, I... I was... So I was, like I was... I think I was much... I was very like capable at that weight. It was like, it was like weird. But I would always get those comments, especially being like in the locker room. I was always afraid to take my shirt off, you know? Um-

Chris Williamson 5:12 What... How heavy did you get?

Will Tennyson 5:14 So I was at the time, high school, 5'9". I was probably the heaviest, 275? 275.

Chris Williamson 5:22 Like, 17, 18 years old?

Will Tennyson 5:23 Not even. 15, 16. Wow, yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:26 Yeah, that's heavy.

Will Tennyson 5:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:26 You were a big boy.

Will Tennyson 5:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:29 But people look now, like you don't look like you struggle with weight or with maintaining lean muscle mass.

Will Tennyson 5:37 I struggle the most with my diet. My appetite, my appetite is just like super high that I always have to find ways to like cheat the system somehow.

Chris Williamson 5:45 What like?

Will Tennyson 5:46 Like, I'm just always like always looking for, you know, ways to up the volume on something. Like, if I can cut cabbage into this, this bowl to make it look bigger.

Chris Williamson 5:55 Right.

Will Tennyson 5:55 You know, if I can get like a... I bought a Ninja Creami recently because-

Chris Williamson 5:58 Yeah, that's-

Will Tennyson 5:58 ... you know, the h- the halo tops or those things just doesn't do it for me. It's not big enough, you know. I have to eat like a whole bucket of it. But I think that's just the mentality.And I-

Chris Williamson 6:06 Well, I'd- so, I had this, uh, really interesting conversation with Robert Plomin. So, he's one of the world's leading behavioral geneticists. So, behavioral genetics talks about how heritable traits get passed down through your genes. It's the, uh, nurture side... Uh, sorry, it's the nature side of nature/nurture. And, um, he was talking about weight, and that as people, uh... When you compare twin studies where they've been raised separately, you compare them back with their parents, and BMI is, like, 60% heritable, even when you take them outside-

Will Tennyson 6:40 Wow.

Chris Williamson 6:40 ... of the household. So, so much of it is driven by genetics, and people go, "Oh, genetics is bullshit," but what they think you mean when you say genetics is metabolism. Not talking about that. The way that people get fat is through so many different contributing factors. One of them is leptin/grehlin release. It sounds like your ghrelin is just, that's the, uh, hormone that makes people feel hungry, absolutely working overdrive. Other people have got, uh, mechanically bigger stomachs or stretchier stomachs that allow them to eat more. Other people get a great sense of pleasure from the stretched sensation of their stomach being full. Other people don't like exercising. Other people don't like, uh, waking up early. Some people are night owls, which means... You know, there's a million ways to get fat. And sometimes you have both big stomach and high ghrelin release, and I don't like, and that's where you get to, you know, the 500, 600, 700 pounds.

Will Tennyson 7:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:29 And this is, uh, you know, for the "Just work harder, nobody cares, bro," crowd, it's kind of a difficult circle to square, because most people are kind of empathetic and go, "I'm sure that if these people had the choice, they wouldn't be 600 pounds," but they are.

Will Tennyson 7:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:44 So, do I feel pity? Do I shame them? Do I encourage them? Do I feel sorry for them? Like, what, what is it that I do? And I guess, yeah, as a, uh, rehabilitated fat kid, uh, that must like a complex situation to manage still for you.

Will Tennyson 8:01 Yeah, I mean, I think I'm definitely lucky with what I do because it keeps me in line in a lot of ways. You know, like to, to do this, be on camera and like just make videos where you're tank top and stuff, like, it keeps me in check. And it, I can- it kinda makes me wonder, like, you know, if I wasn't-

Chris Williamson 8:13 What would you be like if you weren't-

Will Tennyson 8:14 ... what would I be like, yeah. And like, I've, I've, like, come up with, like, many different, you know, systems that work for me. Like, back when I first started YouTube, I was shredded, super shredded, and it was easily maintainable for me, but I did- I didn't eat till 5:00 PM at night. I would fast. I got so used to fasting-

Chris Williamson 8:31 Hmm.

Will Tennyson 8:31 ... and I would eat at 5:00. But then, as, like, content ramps up, the more I travel, you know, it- it just is not possible for me.

Chris Williamson 8:38 Yep.

Will Tennyson 8:38 'Cause now it's like, what's the next thing for me? And I'm kinda slowly figuring it out.

Chris Williamson 8:41 So,

Chris Williamson 8:42 talk to me. Let's say that there is somebody listening who thinks, "That's me. I should be a fat kid. I'm trying to fight it off. Uh, he's trying to get out of me or she's trying to get out of me, but I don't want to." What are your best strategies for simplifying fat loss, calorie restriction, increasing compliance, making it simpler and easy?

Will Tennyson 9:02 Yeah. For me, I think for a lot of people, the cravings come at nighttime.

Chris Williamson 9:06 Same.

Will Tennyson 9:06 Yeah. So, I've noticed, I- I've kind of coined this thing called macro fasting, where you don't necessarily have to, like, not eat at all, but fast the carbs and the fat for later into the day. So, a lot of times when I'm hungry, I'll just, I'll make egg whites or I'll have a protein shake, I'll have some Greek yogurt, and that keeps you full, not a lot of calories. So I kind of just cruise on that stuff throughout the day. And then once it hits nighttime, I'll go to watch some TV, it's like, "Holy shit, I got 250 carbs, I got like"-

Chris Williamson 9:32 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 9:32 ... "you know, 75 fat. I'm gonna have some, some fun food, but I'm gonna still have some, like, make some good choices too." And I've noticed that when I just go to bed and I can... Or like, I notice when I watch TV and I have a snack and I'm like, "I kinda want another one," and I can, it- it helps me mentally, and then, you know, I go to bed and I feel fine. And then the next day I wake up, I have my coffee, stay caffeinated.

Chris Williamson 9:50 Hmm.

Will Tennyson 9:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:52 So, that's not too dissimilar to carb backloading in a way.

Will Tennyson 9:54 Yeah, yeah. But macro fasting just sounds-

Chris Williamson 9:56 Yeah, no, I like it.

Will Tennyson 9:57 Yes.

Chris Williamson 9:57 That's- that's cool. Uh, what about from an exercise perspective? Uh, it seems like you've always been active.

Will Tennyson 10:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:04 But are there other thing... Do you need to keep yourself in check? Do you need to hit a 11,000 step count? Or is that not something that you're too fussed about?

Will Tennyson 10:11 I'm a step fanatic, man.

Chris Williamson 10:12 Really?

Will Tennyson 10:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:13 Wow.

Will Tennyson 10:14 I- I don't miss a day.

Chris Williamson 10:15 Okay, so what's your-

Will Tennyson 10:16 You gotta miss one day.

Chris Williamson 10:16 ... what's your average?

Will Tennyson 10:17 I usually average 12,500.

Chris Williamson 10:20 Wow.

Will Tennyson 10:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:20 That's a lot.

Will Tennyson 10:20 Minimum, minimum. But I-

Chris Williamson 10:21 That's so much.

Will Tennyson 10:22 Yeah. I love it though. I love walking.

Chris Williamson 10:24 Okay.

Will Tennyson 10:24 I- I very much so-

Chris Williamson 10:24 So, what are you doing when you're walking?

Will Tennyson 10:26 Um, now I have a puppy, so I walk the puppy.

Chris Williamson 10:28 Right.

Will Tennyson 10:28 Yeah, that's fine, but when I'm walking, I hate to admit it, but I'm thinking.

Chris Williamson 10:32 Right.

Will Tennyson 10:33 I'd rather just kind of be, you know, present, looking around.

Chris Williamson 10:34 So, you're not listening to stuff, you're not working-

Will Tennyson 10:36 No.

Chris Williamson 10:36 ... you're not on calls?

Will Tennyson 10:37 I'm- I'm just thinking. I'm like, "What's the next video? What's next month look like?" You know? Um, it's kinda therapeutic-

Chris Williamson 10:43 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 10:43 ... I guess, to- to- t- for me to go for a walk. Um, but yeah, it's something that it's always gonna be part of me. It's brought down from my mom. My mom's always been a step counter. And my mom's a fitness fanatic.

Chris Williamson 10:54 It's the behavioral genetics of step counting getting through that.

Will Tennyson 10:57 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:57 What do you

Chris Williamson 10:58 make of the modern world of male body image and such? You're obviously at the forefront of this-

Will Tennyson 11:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:06 ... at least from a YouTube perspective. There's 3 million young guys probably that follow you and-

Will Tennyson 11:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:11 ... a few chicks.

Will Tennyson 11:13 I think it's so sad. I think that, like... It's crazy, 'cause I think that a lot of guys do it for the attention of women, but you're not gonna get the attention... You just need the tension from where you're not g- what- what you're not going for, you know what I mean? Like, it's... I... To me, I think sexy is healthy, happy, you know, going out to eat when you wanna eat, and that's kind of what I preach on my channel. I feel like I actually don't really associate myself with the fitness industry. Everyone's like, "Oh, like, what- what do you think the state is of the fitness industry?" Well, I'm like, "I think the fitness industry is split." I think there's fitness entertainment, where there's me and a select few of people who go, like, "I'm gonna tackle this, like, trending topic with a fitness twist," but then there's, like, the fitness side where it's, like, heavy duty bodybuilding, steroids, which I don't necessarily agree with that. And I think this is, like, the side that all these kids are- are going to-

Chris Williamson 12:04 Hmm.

Will Tennyson 12:05 ... and-... I think that just comes with time. I think once you mature and you realize that the gym isn't everything... 'Cause I- when I was younger, when I was 21, I almost went on steroids. I bought it, I had it.

Chris Williamson 12:14 Hmm.

Will Tennyson 12:15 And I'm just so thankful I didn't, 'cause I don't think that people really sh- people don't show, like, the negatives to it. Like, I had a lot of friends in university that would just be like, "Dude, it's amazing. Like, I take, I take Anavar and, like, it's, uh, no side effects." And I'm like, "Oh shit, this is gonna be me too." And then you, like, realize after they have, like, they get some sort of, like, cancer or, like, tumor and you're like, "Oh f-" You know. So, I think you have to realize, like, you're not just making a decision for yourself right now, but it's also for your future self.

Chris Williamson 12:39 Hmm. Have you had friends that took stuff like Anavar early and had-

Will Tennyson 12:43 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:43 ... bad health outcomes?

Will Tennyson 12:45 Yes, yes. I have a lot of friends who went on it who were, were jacked and I would, like, admire them and now I see them and I'm like, "I don't even recognize you 'cause you're so skinny, 'cause you quit the gym because you're so depressed that you can't use it anymore."

Chris Williamson 12:57 Because the gains came so easily when they were enhanced-

Will Tennyson 13:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:01 ... that as soon as you try and do it not enhanced, it sucks and you don't, uh...

Will Tennyson 13:04 Yeah. Like, when I was, when I was 16, I'd go to the gym and there was another guy there, and I grew up with him and all of a sudden he blew up, looked great, he was obsessed with it. Then he just disappeared, and I, I didn't see him for, like, six years. Then I was at the gas station and I see this guy walk out and he's like, "Will." And I look at him. Didn't even re- I didn't even recognize him.

Chris Williamson 13:23 Oh.

Will Tennyson 13:23 Just, like, nothing. And he, he's just like, "I can't go back in the gym. I can't do it." He's like, 'cause you get addicted to that feeling of being on, and the second that gets taken away from you, it's not worth it anymore.

Chris Williamson 13:35 Yeah. I suppose the advantage of being natty for quite a while before you do that is that you develop a love for the gym-

Will Tennyson 13:43 Right.

Chris Williamson 13:43 ... with heavy gravity, and then you get to lighten the load a little bit.

Will Tennyson 13:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:48 Um, but yeah, I, I had a guy called Scott Griffithson, who is a male body dysmorphia researcher out of S- uh, Australia. He said that male body dysmorphia is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within the next two decades. So, the trajectory of that is increasing more quickly than women. Like, just think about how mental that is to think that women, whose primary source of value to the world is their beauty and their youth, um, that's going to be overtaken by guys. Uh, yeah, I, I, I'm also, uh, concerned.

Will Tennyson 14:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:25 It's not good. What would you say to...

Chris Williamson 14:30 I know young dudes who maybe like you were or whatever are dissatisfied with their body and, you know, follow the CBUMs or the Israels-

Will Tennyson 14:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:39 ... or the Tennysons or whatever. What are some of the insights that you wish that you'd known when you were a little bit younger about where sort of confidence and self-esteem comes from? Especially if you like the idea of being a, a muscular guy?

Will Tennyson 14:52 I think you just have to realize that you just, you have to do it for yourself. And that's just, that's such a thing that's, like, very difficult to understand. It's one of those things that you hear it and it sounds obvious, but it's, it's, it's really hard to put into practice. Um, I had an eating disorder when I was, when, um, when I got fat and then I lost, like, over 100 pounds.

Chris Williamson 15:13 How long?

Will Tennyson 15:13 Ve- very rapidly. Coupl- like, under a year. Yeah, it was, I was starving myself, like I was fainting and, and all that stuff. But the reason that it got so bad and it, like, escal- like, it got to the point that it was just, uh... Yeah, it got, um... Fuck, I don't talk about this much. Yeah, there, um... Sorry. Yeah, the, um, the reason that it got so bad was, um... I'd go to school and, uh, my friends would be like, "Yo, you look really good." Like, "I love what you're doing." Like, it's like, it's like it's a, it's great. Not like, "Dude," like, "are you okay?" And like... It was like, I was losing it so fast and I got addicted to, like, seeing that scale drop, and it started, it started, like... My weight loss journey, like, started healthy. My mom was, like, putting me through all, like, the right things, like, you know, like, watching what I was doing. And I was, like, really happy with what I was doing, and then I started trying to prove it to other people. I wasn't doing it for myself anymore, so I lost sight of my journey doing it, and I just wish I could kinda go back and be like, "Stay locked in. Remember why you're doing it. Don't think about, you know, what other people are saying because they don't really know what you're going through." And, um, that's a huge one that I would, um, recommend to people.

Chris Williamson 16:39 I'm sorry you went through that.

Will Tennyson 16:40 Thank you. Yeah. It's, it's hard to talk about. And it's, I feel like I've gotten over it, but it always brings emotion out of me.

Chris Williamson 16:51 Hmm.

Will Tennyson 16:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:53 Well, you know, if you're sad or sorry for that previous version of you that had to go through it, why wouldn't you be?

Will Tennyson 17:00 Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of the things I do now are, are for that version of myself. If someone says to me, like, "What is the reason you do what you do?" It's for kids like me. Where... 'Cause like, for me, like, my, like, escape was YouTube when I was younger. I didn't have a lot of friends, but s- but I, when I, when I came home I'd watch, like, the, you know, the Guzmans, like MaxToon-ing, those guys, and I would, I would kind of, like, be able to escape from, like, shit that was going on in my mind and just kind of, like, lock in for 18 minutes, smile, laugh. So, that's kind of, like, what my goal is with my channel, which is also why it's so lighthearted and like, so, like, you know, jokes. I want you to kinda learn, but I want you to laugh. And I think there's a lot of pressure that I put on myself starting all this being like, every video that I make has to have, you know, this huge impact on someone's life. But I feel like people put too much pressure on themselves for that, 'cause I think a laugh is a huge thing. If you can provide somebody with a laugh and you don't know what they're going through, that's a win for me.

Chris Williamson 17:59 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 17:59 And I get so many comments like that. And for me, that's my driving force right now.

Chris Williamson 18:04 That's cool.

Will Tennyson 18:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:05 I mean, you know, the best thing, I think-... that you can do is make content for the version of you that was 10 or 20 years ago.

Will Tennyson 18:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:11 You know, that's very much what I've done with this channel. It's the podcast that I wanted that didn't exist. Uh, answering questions that I still largely need answers to, but I definitely wanted answers to 15 years ago.

Will Tennyson 18:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:22 And, uh, that's a good point that, does everything need to have this peak, awe-inspiring, philosophical takeaway that, you know, pierces your reality and breaks open your fracturing understanding of the way that the wo-? No. Like, you can just have 18 minutes where you're not thinking about your boss that's a dick or the stress that you've got with your relationship or whatever. Um, you know, people talk about the bad sides of escapism on the internet, and certainly for a lot of people, that is a problem. If you're compulsively checking TikTok for eight hours a day, that's probably too much. But if you've kind of got a bit of a shitty life or you feel like nobody really understands you... So I have this idea you may have heard me talk about before called the lonely chapter?

Will Tennyson 19:01 No.

Chris Williamson 19:01 Okay, so I think this will resonate.

Chris Williamson 19:05 Um, the lonely chapter is a period in everybody's life where they start to do personal development or change or go to the gym, and they begin to become so different that they no longer resonate or can relate to their old set of friends, but they're not yet sufficiently developed or different that they've built their new set of friends, and they kind of get stuck in this middle section, this lonely chapter. And you're so different you can't resonate. You're not yet different that you've developed a new one, and it's like, you know, in the movies, the Rocky montage is 90 seconds, but in your life, it can be five years. And you have no guarantee of glory, you have no understanding of whether or not it's even going to work. You're doing this thing, watching these videos on the internet, going to the gym, trying to dial in your diet, try this prot-... Is it isolate or is it, is it concentrate or is it, is it pea protein or... Do I have the maltodextrin or am, do I have the dextrose and do I, am I supposed to do, like, push-pull legs or am I supposed to do German volume training? You're doing all of these things and you're meditating or you're journaling or you're, you're watching these podcasts and you have no idea if it's even going to fucking work. And it's, you know, from the outside, especially in retrospect, this is the thing that gets missed with most people's origin stories. That in retrospect, it sounds like a unwavering belief that you were always gonna make it. But at the time, what it feels like is just chronic uncertainty and this desperate desire to change, but you, you don't even have the glory of knowing that it's going to be v- you're going to be vi- victorious on the other side of it.

Will Tennyson 20:36 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:36 You end up in this bizarre... It's very mundane. It's very sort of self-deceptive, it's, like, narcissistic, but in a sad way. You know, you're always thinking about you and about whether or not it's going to work, and then you don't have the people, and all of your friends are going, "Well, this isn't going to work this time." Or maybe the s- the, the people that you're trying to be friends with don't even know who you are yet and you're in this place, you're in this town in fucking bum fuck nowhere. And yeah, that lonely chapter, I think, is for so many people, especially the sorts of people that watch your channel or listen to podcasts like this one, it's a refuge for people in their lonely chapter. It's, "Oh, someone else thinks like me."

Will Tennyson 21:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:17 And they don't think like me in the northwest of England or in the northern parts of fucking Canada or Alberta, wherever it is that they live, and they find somebody on the internet that makes them feel less alone, and they go, "Okay, this hopefully gives me proof." But that's the bit that gets missed. The bit that gets missed in most people's origin or come up stories or development stories or the hard pivot or whatever, is the amount of uncertainty that you're just wallow in. You're just, like, drowning in, in a lack of belief that this is even gonna work. And, uh, yeah, I think that lonely chapter is, like, an important concept that more people should know.

Will Tennyson 21:54 I can definitely resonate with that. I always tell people, like, I- I've said it many times on my channel, like, for those people, just because you're not happy with where you are doesn't mean that you can't change. 'Cause when I was going through that chapter, you know, you don't see it as a chapter and you just see, like, that is it.

Chris Williamson 22:10 Life.

Will Tennyson 22:10 You're like, "High school is where I'm peaking. High school is the most important thing in the world." And like, it can't get better than, like, it can't get better. But just you gotta let life go on, and as you get older, you get wiser. And I think for me, a lot of, a lot of the, um, improvements that I've made personally have been through YouTube, but just also just, like, growing up and just realizing, like, around you that nobody cares.

Chris Williamson 22:37 Mmm.

Will Tennyson 22:37 And that's, like, the biggest thing for me, that nobody really cares.

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Will Tennyson 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:49 What would you say to people who feel socially anxious or awkward or like they are being, uh, surveilled by everyone else?

Will Tennyson 24:00 You're not. Y- you're really not. Like, the amount of times that... It's- it's kind of like in the, in the- the obese video...... I was talking to another guy, and he was also fat, and he said the first time he went to the gym, he felt like everyone was looking at him. But that's just an internal thing that you think so that's, that's your own battle. But you just have to realize that like, you're just like everyone else. Like, like, back in school, I was the one kid who I would get a note for not doing presentations because I would not go up in front of the class. I was terrified, so I would always make videos, and that's how I fell in love with YouTube, 'cause all of my projects, I would make a video for it. But no one... Like, it, to me, like, it was almost the same thing, like just being on a video versus being in person, the more that I think about it, it's, it's just, it's still you. It's only you. Everyone's watching you. And when you look around the room, like when I'm watch, like when I think about it now, I, I look back a lot now, with like, you know, hindsight, you look around, no one's laughing.

Chris Williamson 24:55 How old are you now?

Will Tennyson 24:56 I'm 30, I just turned 30. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:58 Happy birthday.

Will Tennyson 24:58 Thank you, yeah. Which is a weird one.

Chris Williamson 25:01 It's my strategist over there, the one with the unnecessary pair of glasses on inside-

Will Tennyson 25:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:05 ... it's his 30th birthday today. Happy Birthday to you.

Will Tennyson 25:08 Yeah. I've actually had a hard

Will Tennyson 25:09 time with that one, to be honest.

Chris Williamson 25:10 Why?

Will Tennyson 25:12 Um, this might get kind of dark, but um, I've always been somebody, like especially in my 20s where your birthdays kind of just mesh together, and um, I've also never been one to think about death, ever. But as I turned 30, I started to think about it a lot, like I've also like obs- I've like been like obsessing with it. And um, not sure why. And um, I kind of see things completely differently now, like I think when in my 20s I kind of just saw like, I'm, this is my life and if I walk down the street and I see an 80-year-old, that's just someone in my life, and that's just who they are, they're just an object in my life and I'm never gonna be that. But the second I turned 30, I'm like, "Holy shit. I'm gonna be that one day." So like I, I'm kind of like finally, as weirdly as it sounds, like seeing the fact that I'm aging, and it's um, it's made me kind of like, you know, reflect a, a lot.

Chris Williamson 26:04 I've thought about that a lot recently. I've had this conversation a couple of times but... As a guy, basically until you're probably about, I think it was about 32, 33 for me, uh, you're just not aware of mortality. You're not aware that you're aging. And then, probably 34 was the first time I was like, "Oh, I've got like a couple of gray hairs on my beard. Oh." And workouts actually take a bit longer to recover from.

Will Tennyson 26:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:32 And if I have a late night, even if I'm not drinking, that kind of hits me the next day like a mild hangover. Like what? I used to be made of rubber and magic. What is this? This is weird. And it's a conversation that I'm really keen to have more about what it means to age gracefully as a man because everybody talks about it for women, and rightly so. Again, their primary source of value to the world in many ways is their beauty and their youth, uh, but I think we have quite a well-established conversation about that for women. But for guys, what does it mean to know that you're never going to be as lean as you were before or as muscular as you were before? And because dudes aren't supposed to take their sense of self-worth from the way that they look, what does it matter if you've got wrinkles, you know, that's a sign of being a man. Skin care is for pussies, like just fucking, you know, take the sun in the face with no UV protection. Uh, but especially given that young guys are having more body dysmorphia problems and that everybody is, whether it's, uh, Zoom face or just the ubiquity of social media or even just photos, the fact that everybody's taking more photos of themselves and what's going on, everyone is able to scrutinize their condition and their age much more. Um, so yeah, I think it's a weird... Did you have, 'cause I had this, shame around being bothered about the fact that you were noticing that you were getting older? Like you shouldn't, that this isn't a masculine, uh, embodiment in order for you to think about this?

Will Tennyson 28:03 No.

Chris Williamson 28:04 Right.

Will Tennyson 28:04 (clears throat) I'd say I'm quite-

Chris Williamson 28:05 Just me.

Will Tennyson 28:05 ... I'm an open book with my emotions. I would say like I'm... I think one of the main reasons why a lot of people enjoy watching my content is because I'm so okay with making a fool of myself, I'm so okay with not being the best, and I'm just a great person to just be like, "Okay, like I'm just gonna go and, and learn, and just like be a fly on the wall and just watch you do your thing." Like I was just shooting a video yesterday and we were doing this like mobility test and I know that I was probably the worst person that he's ever seen.

Chris Williamson 28:37 (laughs)

Will Tennyson 28:37 And me, and me, and me being in the fitness space, I'm, I'm like, I'm okay with it because it's just like, it's not that serious.

Chris Williamson 28:43 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 28:43 And I think just like men take themselves so seriously they're not allowed to feel, and I just, I just, I just don't understand. Like for me, I think like showing your emotion is sexy, you know?

Chris Williamson 28:54 Being playful is definitely a really good, uh, pressure release valve, I think. Uh, so Charlie Hooper, that does Charisma

Chris Williamson 29:04 on Command, teaches people how to be more confident, charismatic, especially in communication, uh, he taught me this thing, it's probably three years ago now, and he taught me about how people don't always want the right answer to a question that they ask you. So for instance, uh, somebody asks you, um, "What did you do for a living?" And you make up some really elaborate, uh, ruse, and you take them on this, "You know, I used to work as a vet but then I saved this one particular dog that I had to take back to Jamaica and I just decided I was gonna sell loosy cigarettes on the beach for... Actually no, that's a lie, like I work in finance." Um, I know that that's such a lame joke, but so few people are prepared to not answer a question trying to get it as right as possible. I think this is drilled into us partly from school, and then also from wanting to be seen as serious thinkers, as somebody who's sophisticated and has insight and you know, can be efficient and, uh, on the ball. Uh, but so many of my friends, that I love being around the most, give me the most wrong answers. So they regularly, regularly will make a joke about something and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, I... Fucking all right, but what really? Thank you about that." But their first go-to is not necessarily the right thing, and I think that kind of in YouTube the same thing, if somebody takes themselves too seriously or, even around work, like people know this. If there's an opportunity for you to lighten the load a little bit...I think it's good for everybody else and a service to them and a service to yourself-

Will Tennyson 30:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:29 ... to kind of just be a little bit lighter. So I have written, you know, this is a big thing I'm working on in the show at the moment, trying to add a little bit more sort of playfulness, which I think is, like, the best term-

Will Tennyson 30:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:37 ... like, being playful with it. Um, and I've got written on a Post-It note, just above where the camera sits, "Play." I've got that just to remind me, you know, you can make this conversation a, a serious academic topic or whatever. Try and find the element of play in it. Um, and we realize that play is something that you're supposed to do with sports or with pickleball or, you know, whate- whatever, dance or whatever it is that you're doing. We don't think about it in day-to-day communication so much.

Will Tennyson 31:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:03 So yeah, I think that injecting more play into serious or un-serious topics is a, a pretty good way to go about it.

Will Tennyson 31:12 I just think that when you get older, you feel like you can't. And I was just walking with my wife and, um, I saw this little kid and he was just running on the field screaming and I was just like, "Oh, I wish I could do that." And she's like, "Then why don't you?" And I'm kind of just like, "Oh yeah, why, why can't I?"

Chris Williamson 31:28 Absolutely called out by your wife there.

Will Tennyson 31:30 Yeah, yeah. Like, why, like, why not? And I feel like you get a certain age, and I think that's what's wrong with this world.

Chris Williamson 31:34 Did you then run toward the child screaming? 'Cause that's the sort of thing-

Will Tennyson 31:37 Unfortunately, no.

Chris Williamson 31:38 ... that'll get you-

Will Tennyson 31:38 Yeah, I know, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:39 ... arrested.

Will Tennyson 31:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:41 Have you seen Nikocado Avocado's recent re-transformation?

Will Tennyson 31:45 I have, I have.

Chris Williamson 31:45 Give me your thoughts on that.

Will Tennyson 31:47 That's insane. And it's, I- I'm just like, what, what was going on? Like, 'cause they said he posted a video seven months before that one. So how much was he shooting in advance? Like, what was like, like was he doing it the right way? Did he get liposuction? It looks like he has no loose skin.

Chris Williamson 32:05 At least around the face.

Will Tennyson 32:06 Yeah. I mean, even when you see him, like, kind of with the, the T-shirt on, the T-shirt's quite snug and it's like you don't see any, um, loose skin. So it's, it's pretty crazy. I'm almost, like, at a loss of words 'cause you don't really know. Like, I'd love to know, like, did he do it, did he work out? Like, it would be really cool.

Chris Williamson 32:22 For people that don't know what we're talking about, Nikocado Avocado was a mukbang eating video on YouTube influencer who got... How heavy do you think he got?

Will Tennyson 32:32 I think it was 411 pounds.

Chris Williamson 32:34 Right, okay.

Will Tennyson 32:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:35 Four- 400 pounds, uh, not that high, uh, uh, not that tall of a, uh, height. And, uh, then released a video the other day, the most Luke-I-am-your-father, (gasps) semi-sociopathic, like-

Will Tennyson 32:48 Semi, semi? So-

Chris Williamson 32:49 ... staring down, like, saying that it was, "You have all been part of the biggest social experiment in history." Th- the just so, I mean, like, one of the best YouTube videos I've seen in a long time.

Will Tennyson 33:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:02 Like, awesome, like, really, oh, this isn't MrBeast dropping a Lamborghini into a car crusher that's kind of unique or whatever. This is outright insane.

Will Tennyson 33:13 He has, like, 40 million views too.

Chris Williamson 33:14 Yeah. And, uh, no one knows really how it's happened. I mean, I-

Will Tennyson 33:20 I wish he would share that. I think that'd be super cool.

Chris Williamson 33:23 I think he m- he has to how. He can't just leave that loop open, surely.

Will Tennyson 33:27 I mean, based off what we saw, I think he might. He just seems like that type of guy who just likes the mystery of it all.

Chris Williamson 33:33 How hard would you have to work to get from 411 pounds down to 160-

Will Tennyson 33:40 60-

Chris Williamson 33:40 ... 170, something like that?

Will Tennyson 33:42 That would be life-consuming. Like, you'd have to change every aspect of your life. Like, it would be, like, 'cause I feel like 411 pounds, like, not many people can do that. 'Cause I can, like, I think for a lot of people, like, people don't really realize how hard it is to get that fat. Like, we get to, like, a lot of people get to 250 and you, you're, you're stuffing your face, but then you just, you can't possibly maintain the increase.

Chris Williamson 34:05 Mm, mm.

Will Tennyson 34:05 So I think to get to that level of, like, fat, like, like, you are doing some, like, serious shit, man. Like, it's like you're, you're like having IV of fricking, like, chee- like, cheese in your, like, while you sleep. Like, like so everything that he does has to, has to be completely changed. So I, I can't even imagine how hard that would be.

Chris Williamson 34:24 Yeah, you've lost a person. You've lost a person and a bit-

Will Tennyson 34:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:28 ... off you.

Will Tennyson 34:28 Yeah. Couple people, I would say.

Chris Williamson 34:31 Yeah, yeah.

Will Tennyson 34:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:32 Uh, yeah, I mean, it's very impressive, uh, and also kind of concerning that everybody was sort of drawn into this same thing. One of my favorite writers, Gwenda, wrote the definitive audience capture article about Nikocado.

Will Tennyson 34:52 Oh.

Chris Williamson 34:52 And he's a smart guy. Gwenda's a really, really smart guy. And I sent him the video and he said, "Oh, I saw the most recent mukbang you did." I was like, "No, no, no, no. Did you see the video he dropped yesterday?" And he went on and was like, "Oh my God. Like, this is the most wild, incredible twist to the story." I really don't know, man. I mean...

Will Tennyson 35:08 It's quite remarkable that if i- if this was all planned and he's like, "I'm gonna get to this and then I'm gonna go down," the guy has balls.

Chris Williamson 35:15 If he's got-

Will Tennyson 35:16 To be said.

Chris Williamson 35:16 ... uh, definitive proof, you know, holding the newspaper up-

Will Tennyson 35:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:19 ... so to speak, uh, that's wild.

Will Tennyson 35:22 Yeah, 'cause that's what I'm also thinking. I'm like, is this, is this, like, way in the past? Like, you know, I don't know.

Chris Williamson 35:27 Oh, that he could have released the video r- it could have been a video that was recorded. I mean, even that. So let- there's only two ways that this ha- has happened, right? Either he recorded that before he got fat and is now releasing it, but I think he's got different hair. Uh-

Will Tennyson 35:42 Okay.

Chris Williamson 35:42 ... so he recorded it before he got fat to then release it now he is secretly fat but hasn't told anybody. Or he actually did get fat and has now lost all of the weight and he's talking about that. I don't know which one's more incredible. I don't actually know which one's more shocking.

Will Tennyson 35:57 Yeah, they're both, they're both crazy.

Chris Williamson 35:59 Wild. Nikocado, if you wanna come and talk about it on the show, you know where I am. Um, they're just so, so fascinating. But yeah, to see a normal dude, relatively normal dude go through that. And going back to your

Chris Williamson 36:17 videos, what's the hardest challenge that you've done?

Will Tennyson 36:21 Oh, I did one recently. I went to Denver. I got ya-

Chris Williamson 36:24 Just going to Denver was hard? (laughs)

Will Tennyson 36:26 (laughs) Yeah, but, uh, man, um, I went to the, the, um, North America's highest gym.

Chris Williamson 36:32 Okay.

Will Tennyson 36:33 And, uh, it was in Alma, like, an hour and a half out of Colorado, and, um... Or Denver, I don't know. What's there? Yeah. But, um, I did this challenge where I would ha- I had 10 challenges and they get progressively harder, and then at the altitude. It was also my first video so I landed and we went, and, uh, I had to do like... I, like, maxed out on squats, then I maxed out on overhead press, maxed out on bench, did like, um, all this cardio and by the end, I was on this thing called the Jacob's Ladder-

Chris Williamson 37:04 Yep.

Will Tennyson 37:04 ... for like the, uh, for the 10th challenge, and I'm on it and this is the first time ever where I thought my body was like shutting... My body was shutting down on me and I couldn't control it. And I was like, I was going... And then I'm, I'm pretty sure, like a lot of it I kind of don't remember, to be honest, because I- I kinda, I blacked out. I- Like, I blacked out and I kinda came back up 'cause I wanted to finish it so bad.

Chris Williamson 37:26 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 37:26 And then once the, once that was done I- I- I almost couldn't walk and I just started profusely crying once the vi- once it was done and I couldn't control, like, my emotion. I just started crying. And the guy was like, "Holy... Like, are you okay?" And I'm like, "I don't know." Like I- I just, like I was, like, "I don't know if I'm okay." Like I just... It felt like such a traumatic experience for some reason and it took me, like, a long time, like, couple of weeks to actually feel okay again.

Chris Williamson 37:53 Wow.

Will Tennyson 37:53 And then a lot of the comments are like, "Dude," like, "that was fucking dangerous, dude." Like, like 'cause I- I got like my, um, bl- uh, blood oxygen-

Chris Williamson 38:00 Yep.

Will Tennyson 38:00 ... level test and it was, like, 80.

Chris Williamson 38:01 Not good.

Will Tennyson 38:02 Not good, yeah. I didn't really know at the time, so I was like, "Okay, whatever," like, "I'm making a video," like, "it's gonna be cool."

Chris Williamson 38:06 Yep.

Will Tennyson 38:06 The worse it is, the better, kind of, like that's my-

Chris Williamson 38:08 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 38:08 ... thing. And then everyone was like, "Dude," like, "that's really dumb. You could have had a heart attack."

Chris Williamson 38:12 How high is it, do you know?

Will Tennyson 38:13 Um, 10,361 feet.

Chris Williamson 38:16 That's really high.

Will Tennyson 38:17 Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I got home-

Chris Williamson 38:19 It's a gym on a mountain.

Will Tennyson 38:20 Yeah. Yeah. My, uh, my wife yelled at me. "What if we want to have kids and you go do these stupid videos and all that?"

Chris Williamson 38:26 (laughs)

Will Tennyson 38:26 "You won't be here." I'm like, "I'm not doing it again, don't worry." Yeah.

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Chris Williamson 39:34 like sort of stringing all of these challenges together? You're gaining 20 pounds in a week, waking up at 4:00 AM to do Mark Wahlberg's morning routine, just eating protein bars for a day. Is that not a high personal price to pay?

Will Tennyson 39:46 Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a blessing and a curse. I would say I think it's like a blessing like sometimes I... Al- almost every video or every video that I shoot, I always have a moment where I kinda stop and I'm like, "I'm doing this for a living right now." It's so, it's so fun and so cool. But then I'm a person who, I thrive on routine and schedule and, um, I take, I take my lifting quite seriously. So when I go away for traveling and I- I can't do it or, like, I'm doing someone else's routine, it- it- it throws me off. So it's- it's, uh, it's very difficult to, like, kinda stay on track with all that stuff. And again, it kind of like... Similar to me being fat, where would I be if I didn't do this?

Chris Williamson 40:25 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 40:25 I'm kinda like, "Where would I be physically, like in terms of the gym, if I wasn't doing this?" 'Cause I take it, I take this stuff pretty seriously in terms of, like, the lengths that I'm willing to go to make a video. Like travel, do a lot of stuff. I post very consistently, and, uh, I- I put, I very much put that first before myself, which is probably not the best thing to admit.

Chris Williamson 40:45 I don't know. I... You know, we did the same thing. There was a period just before COVID started and then straight in, I kind of had the inclination before COVID and then when COVID began. Uh, you know, I still remember the message. I- I should print it off and, uh, put it on a wall.

Will Tennyson 41:01 Precisely.

Chris Williamson 41:02 I sent this message to my editor, Dean, who was... It was only me and him for 500 episodes, and then it was me, him and a Mormon assistant for like 650 episodes, and then finally we actually got a team. Uh, but I remember I messaged him and I was like, "I wanna turn pro with the show. I wanna stop messing about. I wanna dedicate everything that I have to becoming as good as possible." This means learning YouTube, learning thumbnails, getting a speech coach, getting a comedy coach, getting an improv coach, working on my diction, working on my questioning, getting better guests, uh, getting better advertisers, working on all of the stuff. Everything. I want to dedicate everything I've got and then, you know, a pandemic shutting down the world isn't great for many things, but it's good to focus your attention and stop distractions. So I know what you mean that you put it ahead of other stuff and it might not be... I don't know. I think it's a good thing to admit in that you're dedicating yourself to a pursuit.

Will Tennyson 41:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:54 Um, and it's-

Will Tennyson 41:55 I think there's a fine line. Like for me, I had this r- I had this s- like I, when I s-

Chris Williamson 41:59 Dedicational compulsion.

Will Tennyson 42:01 Yeah. I mean, I- I started my channel with my dog, Ollie. Like he was like this little, little fellow and he was, like, very much so a character. All... I would do intros with him and stuff and, um, he's the o- he's like... I've only ever remembered life with him. He was 16, so he passed away or like... Yeah, he passed away but like w- I was at the house and my dad was like, "We have to put him down." Like 'cause it was just getting like so bad. I fainted. Like I, like I've never fainted. I'm not one who f- to faint. I fainted in the kitchen and I was like so devastated. The next day I shot a video. I just... I had to like... I swallowed it and I went and I shot because I was like, "I have this on my schedule and I'm gonna shoot a video." And I like, I put it down and then once that was done I just-... like, bursted out crying. But then the thing is, I just, I kept on putting it down, but then I never dealt with it. So like, I, I, then you deal with it, like, years later. So I dealt with it this year.

Chris Williamson 42:53 How was that when it finally came back around?

Will Tennyson 42:56 Horrible. Like, so like, and then it makes me kind of upset. I'm like, "Yo, like this is like, this, this animal that was like my..." Like I, my brother was such a huge part of my life and I just like didn't take a time to like, like appreciate that aspect of my life to go shoot a video that's just like for a week of my channel. You know, it's not like anything significant and I couldn't even do that. So it made, it really made me reflect and it's kind of given me a better relationship now with how I approach things.

Chris Williamson 43:29 How so?

Will Tennyson 43:30 I will never, you know, put YouTube be- in front of myself anymore, in terms of like how I feel mentally.

Chris Williamson 43:39 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 43:39 Or anything like that. Um, a huge part of that's because of my wife. Like, she's very much so like very, she's like a hippie. Spiritual, meditation. She's like, "Yo, just like chill."

Chris Williamson 43:50 She has like a good, uh, counter-balance for you.

Will Tennyson 43:52 Yeah, yeah. She's very not, like she's not really into like the social media stuff, so she very much like grounds me and she's like, "You're like, you have to like-"

Chris Williamson 43:58 Touch some fucking grass.

Will Tennyson 43:59 Yeah. Take care of yourself and, you know, when, if you do that, like if you pull back a bit, you're actually making progress. You're going, you're going forward. And like I never really saw it like that, because I think in social media specifically, we see like, you know, when you're not posting, you're failing. You know? And the more that you post, the more views that you get, you think everybody loves you. And then the second you kind of go away, it's like, you're like, you kind of get a bit-

Chris Williamson 44:24 It runs again.

Will Tennyson 44:24 You get a little bit worried.

Chris Williamson 44:25 Yep.

Will Tennyson 44:25 And then I kind of tried like going, like I used to do two videos a week and I was like, "Okay, I'm not gonna do this week, I'm just gonna do one video a week." So I, I used to post Thursday and Sunday. I stopped, I didn't post a video on Thursday and I just sat there and it hit 10:00 AM and I'm like, "Okay. It's, it's okay." You know, there was like, nothing happened. You know, so it's kind of just like, again, it's like learning. Like you're, you're just like, you're, you're maturing in this space.

Chris Williamson 44:47 Deconditioning

Narrator 44:48 itself.

Will Tennyson 44:48 You know? Yeah. So it's just like realizing that it's like, it's not the end of the world. Like, you have a life outside of this and, and just, you know, make it work around, around you.

Chris Williamson 44:58 Tim Ferriss talks about, uh, decentralizing your identity. So, uh, the worst times or some of the worst times of his life were when all of his sense of self-worth was taken from Tim Ferriss the podcaster, or Tim Ferriss the author, or Tim Ferriss the whatever. And now he wants to be Tim Ferriss the friend, and Tim Ferriss the Brazilian jujitsu practitioner, and Tim Ferriss the wood whittler or whatever it is that he's doing. And he's, yeah, talks about decentralizing your identity. I think that's really cool, that you don't put all of your sense of self-worth into this one thing. Because on one side, that's where obsession comes from, which gives you an awful lot of success. But on the other side, it makes you kind of fragile in a way. It would be like having your entire net worth just invested into one stock. And I'm not convinced that that... You're just gonna get ragged around by the market. "Oh, we're up 10% today. Oh my God, we're down 20% today."

Will Tennyson 45:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:49 Supposed to having a sort of ETF, an index fund, trading portfolio. I have multiple things.

Will Tennyson 45:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:54 I have multiple groups of people. One may be up and one may be down. The gym may be going great, but maybe business is a little bit back. My relationship might be fantastic, but maybe family life's a little bit off. Whatever it might be.

Will Tennyson 46:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:04 Um, I think that's a good way to think about it. But on the flip side, that's a luxury that I think you have and that I have it to some degree too, because we've reached some form of escape velocity to get out-

Will Tennyson 46:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:21 ... to the platform size and kind of the momentum that you need to. So this is the thing that, again, talking about The Lonely Chapter, and I really love discussions like this where we talk about the real sort of hidden pain or the, the unsexy nuance. The unsexy nuance of most advice is that what somebody who is big enough for you to care about their advice is giving you, is probably not the tactic that they did when they were at your level.

Will Tennyson 46:50 100%.

Chris Williamson 46:50 So for me and you to start talking about work/life balance, which by the way I don't have, but for you to start talking about work/life balance is all well and good, but you didn't get to three million subs by doing that.

Will Tennyson 47:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:01 You didn't... So what everybody needs to think about that's taking advice from the internet is not, what does this person say that they would do now? Because they are not you and this isn't... Don't look at what somebody says they would do now. Look at what they did when they were you in the past. You know what I mean?

Will Tennyson 47:20 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I, I, um, it's funny that you say that 'cause I w- I watch a lot of podcasts. And I was watching MrBeast's podcast and then they're asking him, "How would you start a YouTube channel?" To like people and he's just like, "I'd just focus on making the best video possible. And you know, just only put, put the best video possible." So like what he does now. But it's like, no. It's like, you gotta, like can you even speak in front of a camera? Like get, get the reps in. Uh, start uploading. Get comfortable in front of the camera. Like, you know, just, just like be kinder to yourself. Like, take things, like, slowly and then, you know, build up over time. So I d- I definitely feel like people take on the advice of the people who, you know, who've made it. And then-

Chris Williamson 48:00 They're talking to themselves now-

Will Tennyson 48:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:02 ... and not to themselves when they started.

Will Tennyson 48:03 Exactly, and-

Chris Williamson 48:04 Yeah. And that's, you know, the, I think the unsexy, but actually what should be quite inspiring nuance is that if you're sufficiently obsessive and if you just don't stop, you'll end up being successful. Right? That's it. Like, the main reason that people fail at things is that they just don't keep going. And the reason that I l- in some ways I've got this new perspective on the Jocko, Goggins, Hormozi sort of hard work, uh, is all that matters perspective of the world, the reason that I think that's really interesting is that if you were to ask somebody, "What is it that's your X factor that's caused you to be so successful?"... in whatever domain, and they were to say, "It's this, you know, muse. It's this talent. You know, I sort of just take inspiration from whatever," what that sounds like is something that's really easily accessible and not that hard, but what it actually is, is ineffable and fucking inaccessible to everyone.

Will Tennyson 49:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:02 If they say, "Oh, I'm not that smart or that, like, diligent or that talented, I just didn't stop," you go, "Well that, anyone can do that." Problem is, it's difficult.

Will Tennyson 49:12 Right.

Chris Williamson 49:13 So, in a weird way, someone who takes most of their success or derives most of their success from working really, really, really hard, yes, it's a very long journey, but the route is perfectly mapped out for you. As opposed to someone who's relied on talent or some kind of blessing, or, "I'm just naturally funny, or I just did a whatever,"-

Will Tennyson 49:33 Hm.

Chris Williamson 49:33 ... like, it's something that you can't replicate. You go, "Okay, so maybe the distance that you went is shorter, but I have no idea how you got there."

Will Tennyson 49:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:40 You know? Does that make sense?

Will Tennyson 49:41 Yeah. 100%, yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:44 So I think about how... Oh, it, the advice that I would give to sort of someone who's, "I'm prepared to do whatever it takes"-

Will Tennyson 49:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:54 ... "in order to reach escape velocity I have a lonely chapter" or whatever it is. Say, "All right. Obsess over it. Don't stop."

Will Tennyson 49:59 I think beyond obsess, there has to be a good reason as to why you wanna do it. Like, you look at a lot of, you ask a lot of kids in high school. It was, it was something crazy like 80% of them wanna do social media.

Chris Williamson 50:10 Kindergarten.

Will Tennyson 50:10 Y- k- yeah. But it's like if you ask almost 100% of them, I don't wanna speak for all of them, it's probably for the wrong reasons. They're probably just like, "Oh," like, "I wanna do YouTube fitness because all I do is work out neat." No, you don't. Like, come into this for, like, couple weeks, you probably are gonna quit because you don't really realize this is more than a full-time job. It's literally life-consuming. It's all you do. Planning videos, scripting videos-

Chris Williamson 50:33 But the fitness bit is the smallest part.

Will Tennyson 50:35 Exac- exactly. Like, no one understands, like, its actual production is actually a business. Like, people, people don't... It, what, what annoys me is that people don't see social media as an actual real job. And I'm like-

Chris Williamson 50:46 Certain types of social media are not a real job. There are certain types that aren't. Like-

Will Tennyson 50:51 Okay, what would that be?

Chris Williamson 50:52 Um, if you were doing... I've, I've seen a lot of vlogs where it's, "This is my hot girl walk afternoon in"-

Will Tennyson 50:59 Oh.

Chris Williamson 50:59 ... "New York City." And all that you do is get up, have a pumpkin spice latte. You're filming yourself. There's no editor. There's nothing that needs organizing. It's a day in the li- it's permanent day in the life vlogs over and over and over again, but there's no travel. The complexity of going to the highest gym in the world or putting on a fat suit that you've had to get from some medical website that's-

Will Tennyson 51:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:17 ... supposed to be for doctors, and then working out... Okay, so am I allowed to li- am I licensed to film here? You're going to Paris soon. You need to get visa to be able to go there. You need to check if you've got the rights to be able to film there. You need to be able to do DIT to manage the footage that comes out of there. You need to have everything backed up, blah, blah, blah. The, the increase in complexity. So, yeah, anybody that's thinking about doing YouTube as a career or any kind of social media, it's like, hey, guess what? The actual YouTube bit is the smallest part of that job.

Will Tennyson 51:44 Oh.

Chris Williamson 51:44 All of the other stuff, it, it's lots of flights, it's lots of packing and unpacking, it's lots of email-

Will Tennyson 51:50 Stress.

Chris Williamson 51:50 ... ton of email.

Will Tennyson 51:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:52 It's that.

Will Tennyson 51:52 Sure.

Chris Williamson 51:52 That's what the life is.

Will Tennyson 51:54 The amount of people, like my parents' friends, that they would call my parents up and be like, "Is Will ever gonna figure it out? Is he still doing YouTube?" They didn't, people just don't understand. They just go like, "Oh, he's just making, he's making cute videos." You know, that's ju- it's, it's just crazy. It blows my mind that people can't see there's a lot of effort that goes into running stuff like this.

Chris Williamson 52:14 But also on the, on the flip side, that's a kind of moat that you build around you. You know, it's the same as, um, some, uh, musician or artist or powerlifter that steps up to their stage of choice and everyone goes, "Oh my God, did you see how easily Jamal just lis- lifted 1,000 pounds," or whatever. And you go, "Ye- I mean, it looks easy, but there was a lot that went into that"-

Will Tennyson 52:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:34 ... "one five-second display of strength that you've just seen." Or some musician that goes and plays phenomenal song and you go, "Man, he's just got such a great voice." You go, "He's trained a great voice-"

Will Tennyson 52:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:44 ... which is different. Uh,

Chris Williamson 52:47 another video you did, you were one of the first people to break Bryan Johnson into the mainstream.

Will Tennyson 52:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:52 What do you make of that arc? Do you feel responsible for him being everywhere now?

Will Tennyson 52:58 Oh, man. I don't know about that 'cause I feel like he's just a very interesting guy in general. He has his, like, quirks that he's bound to be, he's bound to be out there. But that was such a cool experience. I don't know. Have you ever met him?

Chris Williamson 53:09 I have.

Will Tennyson 53:10 You have met him.

Chris Williamson 53:10 Yes.

Will Tennyson 53:11 Yeah. He, he was such a great guy. And I was kind of like... A lot of people, I, I just don't know what to expect when you go into situations like this. But he was just, he was equally, like, crazy, but just also, like, just normal. Like, you would just, like... A- like, when the camera's off, you just, you just, like, talk to him. He didn't... Like, I thought he was gonna be, like, some, like, "Could I even, like, communicate with you?"

Chris Williamson 53:32 Mad scientist.

Will Tennyson 53:33 Mad scientist, yeah. But just such a, a good dude. Seemed so happy. Like, the team that he was, he was with just seemed so great. But that day was just, like, insane.

Chris Williamson 53:41 What was it like?

Will Tennyson 53:42 It was just, like, it was crazy 'cause, like, it was so, like, we couldn't talk to him leading up to it. We had to talk to his assistant.

Chris Williamson 53:49 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 53:49 And, um, it was like, "Okay, you have to be here exactly at this time." Like, "We cannot be a second late 'cause he has to be gone at 11:00." It's like, we don't, you don't have much time. There's no reshoots. So, like, we gotta go and do this. This is all on live. So we, we barely cut it. And, uh, we go sh- we show up. We open the door, the video starts. And I'm like, "Oh, okay." So, like, I actually, in the video, I'm, like, quite... I'm, like, kind of, like, frazzled because I wasn't expecting it-

Chris Williamson 54:12 Hm.

Will Tennyson 54:12 ... 'cause usually we kind of talk a bit, but-

Chris Williamson 54:13 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 54:13 ... it was just like, "Let's go. Let's get into it." It was, like, nonstop. Genuinely went through his morning routine, and that took us a couple hours with not even a second of break. It was like, "We're gonna take these 60 pills. We're gonna put this on your head. We're gonna measure this. Oh, like, the, the sun UVs this, I can't go outside." Like, it's just crazy. I, I caught my water at noon. He stops drinking-

Chris Williamson 54:35 To, uh, enhance his sleep?

Will Tennyson 54:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:38 Wow.

Will Tennyson 54:38 And-

Chris Williamson 54:38 So he must consume an awful lot of water in the morning-

Will Tennyson 54:41 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:41 ... in order to be able to get sufficient water across the day.

Will Tennyson 54:43 Yeah, and it, it, that opened my eyes to, like, I began starting to take sleep way more seriously 'cause he said in the video, he's like, "Sleep is one thing in your life that should be non-negotiable."... and I never really kind of got it. And he's like, "You have to go to bed at the same time every night, wake up same time." For me, I'm religious, 10:00 PM bed, 8:00 AM wake up.

Chris Williamson 55:02 In other news, this episode is brought to you by Hillsdale College. In a world where truth and knowledge feel harder to find, Hillsdale College stands apart. They believe education should be about more than just a degree, it's about understanding what truly matters: liberty, character, and the pursuit of truth. Hillsdale offers over 40 free online courses to help you learn the timeless ideas that have shaped our world, so you can think critically and live freely. Whether you're diving into history, politics or philosophy, Hillsdale's courses are designed to give you the tools to think for yourself. If you need a place to start, you can check out their Introduction to Aristotle's Ethics. You'll learn Aristotle's teachings about human nature, the meaning of the good life, and the virtues necessary for happiness. If you want to learn more, head to the link in the description below or go to hillsdale.edu/modernwisdom to enroll. There is no cost, and it is easy to get started. That's hillsdale.edu/modernwisdom. It seems like sleep consistency is m- m- arguably maybe as important as sleep duration. It's getting, it's pretty close.

Will Tennyson 56:02 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 56:03 Y- duration and consistency would be-

Will Tennyson 56:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:04 ... what would be one and two. And, um, yeah. I, it's funny you say about the UV thing. I was in Roatan, uh, off the island of Honduras at the start of the year for this biohackers conference, and I knew Brian was gonna be there for a day and a half, and we'd been WhatsApping and I saw him walking back from maybe breakfast or a morning walk or whatever, he had an umbrella. And it must've been because the UV was-

Will Tennyson 56:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:29 I've always wondered, "Why the fuck did he have-"

Will Tennyson 56:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:31 "... that umbrella with him?" It must be because the UV was too high and he didn't want it to hit his skin.

Will Tennyson 56:35 Yeah. An- and when I was there in LA, that was during the time of the fires.

Chris Williamson 56:38 Right.

Will Tennyson 56:38 So, it was something to do with, like-

Chris Williamson 56:39 He didn't want to breathe the outdoor air?

Will Tennyson 56:41 The e- the, the quality of the air. So like, he's like, "I haven't been outside in five days." And I'm like, this is kind of, this is kind of crazy that... And it makes you kind of wonder, like, is it worth living your life like this-

Chris Williamson 56:50 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 56:50 ... to potentially, we don't even know, live?

Chris Williamson 56:53 So this is the thing, I've thought about that question a lot. The sacrifice that he makes in order to live longer, sacrifice of quality in order for quantity.

Will Tennyson 57:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:01 And I think the thing that people don't realize about Brian is that he, at least on the outside, I'll never know the inner workings of his mind, I think he takes so much pleasure from the process of doing this thing. It's the same as people that look at Hormozi and go, "Why would you work so much? That sounds like hell." Uh, you don't understand, what he does for play is his work. His work is his recreation activity.

Will Tennyson 57:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:25 So, it would be like me saying to you, "I can't believe that you play so many video games. You must get tired and want to do some work." And you go, "No."

Will Tennyson 57:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:31 So for him, that's the way it works, and the same for Brian. There is just this inherent, like, embodied enjoyment that he has. Um-

Will Tennyson 57:39 Oh, and you can see it, like, we were in the kitchen at the end and the, the, the nurse comes down, "Brian, we need your semen sample." And then he's just all, like, giddy and, like, happy, and he, like, looks at me, he's like-

Chris Williamson 57:47 Well, I mean, if you were to tell me you needed your seaman's-

Will Tennyson 57:47 ... "I'm trying to have a stronger erection than my 17-year-old son."

Chris Williamson 57:50 ... your seaman's sam- sample, you might also be giddy and happy, you never know.

Will Tennyson 57:53 True. That's true. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:54 Uh-

Will Tennyson 57:54 But he's going for a stronger erection than his 17-year-old son, and I'm like, "That's, that's great."

Chris Williamson 57:57 Have they measured them both?

Will Tennyson 58:00 I wouldn't be, I wouldn't be surprised.

Chris Williamson 58:00 Stronger erection than his 17-year-old son?

Will Tennyson 58:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:03 Right. Yeah. Well, he did transfuse, infuse blood, right? They swapped-

Will Tennyson 58:08 Yeah, they did.

Chris Williamson 58:08 Well, I don't think he gave his son blood, but his son gave him blood.

Will Tennyson 58:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:13 Yeah, man. I mean, look, it wouldn't do for everybody to be Brian, but I'm very glad that there's someone who's pushing the limits-

Will Tennyson 58:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:23 ... in that regard.

Will Tennyson 58:24 Because we- we're gonna be able to take a lot from that.

Chris Williamson 58:26 Coming back and telling us-

Will Tennyson 58:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:27 ... what he's learned. Yeah. It's very, it's very, very interesting. He also invited me for lunch. And he, in Roatan he invited me for lunch, uh, but I didn't realize that lunch was nutty pudding. And I was expecting a nice sandwich, you know, maybe some fries or something like that. And I, I turned up and I had nutty-

Will Tennyson 58:47 Nutty pudding.

Chris Williamson 58:47 ... nutty, nutty pudding for lunch.

Will Tennyson 58:48 Which is pretty good. I liked it.

Chris Williamson 58:49 It was okay.

Will Tennyson 58:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:50 The... It wasn't his, it was made by some chef.

Will Tennyson 58:52 Oh. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:52 So they'd repurposed it with local cacao and whatever the-

Will Tennyson 58:55 Okay.

Chris Williamson 58:55 ... fuck they'd done. Uh, one of the other recent pivots

Chris Williamson 59:00 that we've seen is this sort of ascendancy of hybrid training online, which as far as I can tell means lifting weights and running, I think?

Will Tennyson 59:08 Yep.

Chris Williamson 59:09 What do you make of this sort of new world of...

Will Tennyson 59:12 I was thinking about that a lot. I didn't really understand, like, there's so many people who I know that I'd be like, "Yo, there's no way I can see them running," and all of a sudden they're running. And, uh, I think it comes down to, like, a lot of us have, have been lifting for so long that to get progress is so hard to come by that we need another outlet to gain progress. And when you start running for the first time, like, your, your, your time's gonna start increasing, like, you're getting those new-

Chris Williamson 59:35 Because you sucked so bad at the beginning.

Will Tennyson 59:36 Yeah. So, like, you're getting those noob gains again. And I just think that people are falling in love with that process to see, like, the actual progression. And then people are actually liking running better than the gym because the gym is just so... Once you get to a certain point it's like you're scraping for a few pounds, versus weekly you're, you're beating your time by a minute.

Chris Williamson 59:52 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 59:52 So, I don't know e- I don't know if this is gonna be something that lasts very long or it's... I don't know, what do you think?

Chris Williamson 59:57 I wonder, I honestly wonder how much of it is downstream from Nick, there. I just-

Will Tennyson 1:00:00 It's real.

Chris Williamson 1:00:01 I, I, there is an entire generation of young guys on the internet who just see this jacked as fuck guy waking up before the sun rises, sprinting around a track, and goes, "Okay, I want to look like him, so I'll do what he does." Everybody wants to, everyone wants a bodybuilder physique. There's just a lot of questions about how you get it. But the difference is that Nick had that physique before he started running.

Will Tennyson 1:00:25 He was huge. He's actually, like, significantly downsized.

Chris Williamson 1:00:27 Has he really?

Will Tennyson 1:00:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:28 He still looks like a big boy to be going around a running track.

Will Tennyson 1:00:31 Oh, he's a big boy. I mean, like, he us- like, I... He used to be like 230, now he's like 195.

Chris Williamson 1:00:36 But he still peeled out of his-

Will Tennyson 1:00:37 Peeled, peeled, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:39 Uh, so yeah, I, I don't know, uh, you know, HYROX. I got in trouble for calling HYROX professional burpee broad jumps, uh, a couple of weeks ago. Have you done one of those?

Will Tennyson 1:00:48 No. I've heard a lot about it, though.

Chris Williamson 1:00:50 Yeah. I mean, it's, it seems to me that CrossFit really dropped the ball.And, you know, they had it. They had-

Will Tennyson 1:00:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 ... the methodology, they had the gyms, they had the brand, they had the dudes with their tops off and the chicks in booty shorts. They had, they had it. And then just the most spectacular public face-planting of a brand, culminating in somebody dying at the games, I'd... What a nail in the coffin-

Will Tennyson 1:01:12 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 ... of that.

Will Tennyson 1:01:13 That was terrible.

Chris Williamson 1:01:13 I think. Uh, literally. And, yeah, I, I think HYROX has filled in the hole that CrossFit was for a lot of us. So I got this idea of the menopause or the, the training menopause, which a lot of dudes go through.

Will Tennyson 1:01:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 They get to 28, 29, 30, they're tired going up a set of stairs, they can't touch their toes, their flexibility is not so good. They're like, "Ah, my elbow." You know, "I've been putting it off for five years, but any time I go ne- I look at the W-bar on an EZ-Curl machine and I think, 'Ew.'" Um, so they find a new training modality which is maybe a little bit more holistic, community-oriented. Uh, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Thai boxing, yoga, Muay Thai, uh, HYROX, running, run clubs, whatever. And, uh, that, I think, is pretty reliable. The only difference is that we had CrossFit for maybe 10 years ago. So, like, my... I'm 36. Like, my era was CrossFit when we got to that age, and now the ones that are coming up now, yours, is HYROX, run clubs. So-

Will Tennyson 1:02:18 I think it goes a lot to do with, like, the longevity kind of, like, trend now. People wanna be, like, not just a meathead. "I wanna be functional. I wanna be able to, like, again, go up, go up the stairs," like you were saying, "and be able to breathe." So I, I think it... I actually do think it's a, it's a, it's a change for the better.

Chris Williamson 1:02:34 Hmm.

Will Tennyson 1:02:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:02:35 What advice would you give to people who are overwhelmed by the sheer volume of fitness information that's available on the internet?

Will Tennyson 1:02:43 Choose one. Because it's like a lot of things. I mean, even for me, like, you would listen to what one person says, you like that person, but then you watch another video and that person's slightly different. And then you're like, "W- what the hell I'm gonna... What am I gonna do?" So I think just find a source that you believe that you trust and try it, and give it a couple weeks. And, like, don't, don't, like, deviate from that. I think it's, it's even hard now. Like, even if I see a video where it's like, "Oh," like, "you're an idiot if you don't do this chest exercise." And then I see it, and I'm like, "Should I swap out what I'm, what I'm doing right now?" But it's like, if what you're doing right now is working-

Chris Williamson 1:03:17 Mm.

Will Tennyson 1:03:17 ... stick with it, and then keep that, like, in your toolbox for a little later.

Chris Williamson 1:03:21 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 1:03:21 So it's kind of just find one person that you enjoy, try it out for a bit. If you don't like it, okay, well, you tried it, now you know. Find somebody else.

Chris Williamson 1:03:29 What are your, or who are your favorite sources of fitness information?

Will Tennyson 1:03:35 I got Mike Israetel. He, he very much so inspires a lot of how I train. You know, um, when I, when I got to work out with him, it was a cool experience 'cause you really... Like, you're, you're not just... You're, you're, you're like, you're mo- you're bodybuilding. You're not just moving the weight. Like, you're feeling every single second, and, like, you're making every rep last. Definitely, definitely him. Love the mile reps. I don't know if you do any of that with him. Yeah. Jeff Nippard, good friend of mine. Um, I like the science approach to fitness. I don't like any kind of guesswork. I'm not into, like, the bro style of training. I like when there's, uh, like, a scientific backing. It makes me feel like I can, like, rest at ease.

Chris Williamson 1:04:13 Reassured.

Will Tennyson 1:04:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:14 Well, I... Again, this is... Kids nowadays just simply don't know what it was like 15 years ago, trawling bodybuilding.com forums, and there's some guy that says that he grew his delts by doing this one particular exercise and taking blueberry extract in a Nalgene bottle with dextrose. And you go, "Yeah, yeah, that's what I need." But now you have the Menno Henselmans, the Layne Nortons, the Israetels, the Nippards. Like, you have people who peer-reviewed evidence-based-

Will Tennyson 1:04:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:46 ... diet and training. And you know that what they're saying is backed up with something beyond what the big guy in my gym once said-

Will Tennyson 1:04:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:54 ... dot, dot, dot. Uh, so yeah, there is this degree of reassurance. The, the flailing around. I don't know whether you ever felt this of, like, if your training had plateaued and you didn't know why, and you also didn't know what you were supposed to do to fix it. That kind of is largely gone now. You just know, okay, there's an answer out there.

Will Tennyson 1:05:11 Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:05:12 Very quickly Google, "What happens if my arm gains plateau?" Oh well, you're gonna do this, you're gonna deload, then we're gonna come back with whatever. I'm gonna use the-

Will Tennyson 1:05:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:19 ... RP Strength app or whatever. Uh, it's a really different world, which I think is good, really good.

Will Tennyson 1:05:24 But then at the same time, like, a lot of people who I... like, you know, who I hang out with sometimes, like film with, jacked, huge, in, like, in- incredible shape, 20 years old. I'm like, "Okay, so what are we doing today? I'm doing your workout. I'm gonna follow your program." They're like, "What do you wanna do? I don't know." Th- they don't-

Chris Williamson 1:05:41 No idea what they-

Will Tennyson 1:05:41 No idea what they're doing.

Chris Williamson 1:05:42 Totally fluked being massive.

Will Tennyson 1:05:43 Yeah. They're like, "How many reps?" "I don't count."

Chris Williamson 1:05:45 Fuck those guys.

Will Tennyson 1:05:46 Yeah. And I'm like, "Shit."

Chris Williamson 1:05:47 Yeah. In other news, this episode is brought to you by Gymshark. You probably need some new gym kit, and my favorite shorts in the world that I've ever tried on and all I will ever wear for the rest of my life are Gymshark's Studio Shorts. They're phenomenal. They're super lightweight, super stretchy, incredibly comfortable, the perfect length. I literally have them in every color, and it's all that I ever train in. Their Heritage five-inch shorts are the ultimate comfortable shorts to wear every single day. I live and breathe in them, and despite the fact I insist on only wearing them, they keep on not falling apart. Their Crest study is what I fly everywhere in. So if you've seen me in an airport, that's what I've got on. And their Geo Seamless T-shirt is what I train in every single day. Basically, they make the best fitting, best value, most easily accessible gym kit on the planet for men and women. They ship internationally. There's 30-day free returns. Right now, you can shop my best picks for men and some for women too by going to the link in the description below or heading to gym.sh/modernwisdom and using the code MW10 at checkout for 10% off everything sitewide. That's gym.sh/modernwisdom and MW10 at checkout. You

Chris Williamson 1:06:48 mentioned exercises earlier on and chest exercises. If you only had 10 exercises that you were going to choose for the rest of your life to build and maintain as much muscle as possible-What are you gonna pick?

Will Tennyson 1:07:01 Full body.

Chris Williamson 1:07:02 Everything. Physique is being held together by 10 exercises. What do you choose?

Will Tennyson 1:07:07 Hack- hack squat.

Chris Williamson 1:07:08 Okay. Why?

Will Tennyson 1:07:10 Quad, main- main quad builder.

Chris Williamson 1:07:12 Okay.

Will Tennyson 1:07:12 Glutes.

Chris Williamson 1:07:14 Hack squat's interesting. All right.

Will Tennyson 1:07:15 Yeah. I love hack squat.

Chris Williamson 1:07:16 Yep.

Will Tennyson 1:07:16 Romanian deadlift.

Chris Williamson 1:07:18 Okay. Barbell?

Will Tennyson 1:07:21 Yeah. Barbell Romanian deadlift.

Chris Williamson 1:07:22 All right.

Will Tennyson 1:07:22 Incline barbell bench.

Chris Williamson 1:07:24 Classic.

Will Tennyson 1:07:25 Yeah. Preacher curl?

Chris Williamson 1:07:29 Also, W-bar?

Will Tennyson 1:07:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:31 Yep.

Will Tennyson 1:07:34 Pull-up.

Chris Williamson 1:07:36 The squat of the upper body.

Will Tennyson 1:07:38 Yeah. I actually, I would argue overhead press, which I'm gonna say overhead press.

Chris Williamson 1:07:41 Mm-hmm. Also good.

Will Tennyson 1:07:42 Love that one.

Chris Williamson 1:07:42 A lot of axial loads so far.

Will Tennyson 1:07:44 I'm a huge compound guy.

Chris Williamson 1:07:45 Right.

Will Tennyson 1:07:46 Yeah. Overhead press, uh, lateral raise for sure.

Chris Williamson 1:07:50 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 1:07:52 An overhead tricep extension.

Chris Williamson 1:07:54 Mm-hmm.

Will Tennyson 1:07:55 Have I not hit everything?

Chris Williamson 1:07:56 Hamstrings.

Will Tennyson 1:07:57 Romanian deadlift.

Chris Williamson 1:07:58 Yeah, true.

Will Tennyson 1:08:00 I wanna say a calf raise to be politically correct, but I don't know if that's-

Chris Williamson 1:08:02 Well, you can- you can choose-

Will Tennyson 1:08:04 ... yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:04 ... to have little calves for the rest of your life if you want, but-

Will Tennyson 1:08:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:06 ... beware, you're locking-

Will Tennyson 1:08:07 I might just stick with the-

Chris Williamson 1:08:09 ... yourself in.

Will Tennyson 1:08:09 ... yeah. I'd probably do some sort of a, a chest supported row for the back.

Chris Williamson 1:08:13 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Will Tennyson 1:08:13 For-

Chris Williamson 1:08:14 Like a- a horizontal pull.

Will Tennyson 1:08:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:15 Okay, yep.

Will Tennyson 1:08:17 And maybe a weighted dip.

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 That's a, that's a fucking good selection.

Will Tennyson 1:08:22 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:23 That's nice.

Will Tennyson 1:08:24 It's old school.

Chris Williamson 1:08:26 Yeah. I very much like that. I think I've asked that question to maybe 10 people.

Will Tennyson 1:08:31 Do a lot of them overlap?

Chris Williamson 1:08:33 Yeah.

Will Tennyson 1:08:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:33 I think, uh, you're- maybe the first person that hasn't said, uh, incline dumbbell press, but I'm pretty sure everybody's put laterals in.

Will Tennyson 1:08:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:44 Uh, hanging leg raise is the most popular ab exercise, which is pretty interesting. Uh, and just e- even Isra Tell said the same thing. Ryan Terry, who's maybe got the best midsection in the history of-

Will Tennyson 1:08:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:56 ... physique, said the same thing, so I'm like, "I'll listen to you." Uh, the hack squat, I never even think... It's just a machine in the gym that I just ignore. Like, it just-

Will Tennyson 1:09:05 I think it- I think it's every gym bro's favorite leg exercise. I have to think. Like, I- I-

Chris Williamson 1:09:12 That's an- you might be right. Uh, I avoid axial loads 'cause I got a bad back. So I'll do walking lunges, reverse lunges, step-ups, leg press. I just refuse to bend-

Will Tennyson 1:09:24 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:09:25 ... at the waist. Uh, and if I keep a neutral spine, I can hammer my legs. But yeah, it, like single leg, uh, like, Romanian deadlift. I like that. I do like that. Uh, Isra Tell took me through a couple of workouts this week. Have you done his lying down, uh, like, f- front raise thing? So you lie on the floor, you put a cable machine on the very bottom setting-

Will Tennyson 1:09:51 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:09:52 ... and then you lie like this and go like that. Do you know what I mean?

Will Tennyson 1:09:57 I- I have-

Chris Williamson 1:09:57 Can you imagine what this is?

Will Tennyson 1:09:58 I can- I can imagine that, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:59 Yeah, so you're-

Will Tennyson 1:09:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:09:59 ... using the friction of the floor on your ass cheeks to stop you from sliding toward the machine. Um-

Will Tennyson 1:10:04 Holy shit.

Chris Williamson 1:10:04 But that was, that was a weird one. What else did we do that was a little bit strange?

Will Tennyson 1:10:08 See