Modern WisdomThe Dark Subcultures of Online Politics - Joshua Citarella
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 1:15
Joshua Citarella’s work: from gallery artist to online political trendcaster
Joshua explains how he describes his career today—artist, internet culture writer, and podcaster—and how his audience and output shifted from the art world to large-scale online media. He frames his core focus as “early detection” for political ideas and aesthetics emerging in youth subcultures.
- •From exhibiting art to writing and podcasting about internet culture
- •Launching Doomscroll and scaling from niche intellectual audiences to mass viewership
- •Why he studies online politics as a form of trend forecasting
- •How early meme ecosystems can foreshadow mainstream narratives
- 1:15 – 10:23
Politigram ethnography: how teen meme culture previewed today’s politics
Joshua recounts his 2018 project "Politigram and the Post Left," originally focused on eco-anarchy and anti-industrial teen politics on Instagram. He argues the ideas and even specific memes from that era have since migrated into much larger mainstream audiences.
- •What “post-left” meant in 2018 vs. what it signals now
- •Eco-anarchy/anarcho-primitivism as an early Gen Z political fascination
- •Primary-source research: tracking meme-makers and their narratives
- •How small online narratives scale into mass politics
- 10:23 – 16:05
Why young people radicalize faster: information access, post-2008 uncertainty, and shitposting incentives
Chris and Joshua explore why it’s novel that 12–15-year-olds are deeply political online. Joshua outlines three drivers: unprecedented access to information, the collapse of the ‘end of history’ consensus after 2008, and the competitive, morality-light environment of teen shitposting.
- •Access to the full archive of texts and ideologies online
- •Fukuyama’s ‘End of History’ and why Gen Z didn’t inherit that stability
- •Post-2008 splintering into Sanders/Trump-style alternatives
- •Teen culture as a generative engine for ideological mashups
- 16:05 – 18:41
The ideology ‘GAN’: brute-forcing weird political hybrids and the Pokémon-ification of beliefs
Joshua describes teenage meme politics as a generative adversarial network that spams combinations until something ‘works’ socially. They also critique how political engagement can become encyclopedic collecting—knowing labels without wisdom or applicability.
- •Memetic experimentation: ‘monarcho-syndicalism’ as a stress test
- •From understood wisdom to rote ideology collecting
- •How online taxonomy replaces grounded political practice
- •Early signals: how fringe rhetoric later becomes pundit mainstream
- 18:41 – 26:13
Radicalization pipelines—real pathways, but media misuses the metaphor
Chris presses on the ‘pipeline’ idea, and Joshua argues belief systems are always in motion, making pipelines both real and oversimplified. He criticizes mainstream media for using the concept opportunistically—smearing popular podcasts and lumping incompatible viewpoints together.
- •Belief systems and party coalitions evolve; nothing is ‘carved in stone’
- •Cognitive dissonance as the engine that forces belief resolution
- •Why ‘gateway podcast’ accusations are often status-defense by legacy media
- •The internet flipping the script: mainstream media chasing online narratives
- 26:13 – 28:46
When fringe becomes real: Discord mutual aid, Fuentes events, and Destiny’s canvassing machine
Joshua explains how online communities translate into real-world organization and political power. He gives examples ranging from mutual aid during COVID to right-wing conferences and streamer-led canvassing that rivaled formal party operations.
- •Online groups turning into pandemic mutual-aid networks
- •AFPC as ‘downloading life from the internet’ into real-world organization
- •Destiny mobilizing followers for Georgia runoff canvassing
- •Influence measurement: discourse, mimicry, and Overton Window shifts
- 28:46 – 37:31
Nick Fuentes and the far-right ‘optics debate’: from Charlottesville to algorithmic avatars
The discussion uses Fuentes as a case study in how internet-native politics finds a marketable figurehead. Joshua ties his rise to post-Charlottesville aesthetic strategy, platform dynamics, and major news events that amplify dissident commentators across the spectrum.
- •Fuentes’ disproportionate influence relative to small platform size
- •Charlottesville fallout and the far-right’s turn away from ‘campy’ aesthetics
- •Finding a new ‘avatar’ for a post-Gamergate politicized cohort
- •How attention and opportunities concentrate into one winner
- 37:31 – 49:05
Memes as ideology infrastructure: Dawkins, narratives, and ‘irony poisoning’
Joshua clarifies that ‘memes’ are not just images but transmissible narratives that help people assemble worldviews. They unpack the blurred line between joking and sincerity, including how repeated ironic transgression can eventually harden into authentic belief.
- •Dawkins’ meme vs. ‘square JPEG’ and why both matter
- •Narrative as compression: making complex reality digestible
- •Poe’s Law and the difficulty of detecting sincerity online
- •Irony poisoning: joking your way into real commitments
- 49:05 – 52:52
Ideas to watch: social democracy’s reboot vs. network-state/right ‘exit’ impulses
Joshua argues we’re entering a renegotiation era where old neoliberal consensus no longer holds. He highlights an emerging conflict between renewed social-democratic state-building and right-leaning ‘exit’/network-state tendencies shaped by global, border-crossing capital.
- •Rejection of militant activist rhetoric and a search for scalable left politics
- •Why 20th-century social democracy is harder in a digital/global economy
- •‘Network state’ and exitarian impulses on the right
- •The next major political cleavage as state-rebuild vs. exit strategies
- 52:52 – 57:59
How dark does the left go? Eco-extremism, anti-humanism, and neo-Malthusian politics
Asked about left-wing extremism, Joshua focuses on eco-extremist endpoints—political nihilism, anti-humanist ethics, and anti-natalist or neo-Malthusian logic. They also note environmentalism’s complicated crossover into right-wing nationalism through climate-refugee politics.
- •Eco-extremism as rejection of reform, revolution, and even organized society
- •Antinatalism and ‘Earth over humans’ moral hierarchy
- •Neo-Malthusian scarcity arguments leading to catastrophic conclusions
- •Environmentalism re-entering the right via immigration and border framing
- 57:59 – 1:09:08
Anti-establishment coalitions: the Trump–Mamdani overlap and why purity spirals lose elections
Joshua and Chris dissect surprising voter behavior—people open to counter-narratives on both left and right as long as they reject establishment consensus. They argue coalition-building requires persuasion (not shaming) and warn that purity spirals shrink movements until they self-destruct.
- •Cross-pressured voters: anti-establishment > left/right identity
- •The ‘Clinton consensus’ as a symbol of decades of downward mobility
- •Why coalition-building is essential for major reforms (e.g., single payer)
- •Purity spirals and the asymmetry of ‘why I left the left’ narratives
- 1:09:08 – 1:20:03
Performance activism and ‘talking louder’: why stunts backfire (and the parallel with men’s issues)
They discuss Greta Thunberg-style spectacle and Extinction Rebellion tactics, with Joshua criticizing destruction of public cultural goods and Chris explaining the escalation logic of not being heard. The conversation bridges to how similar dynamics play out in online discourse around men’s issues.
- •Why disruptive art/road stunts can repel rather than persuade
- •‘Don’t Look Up’ frame-breaking as a model for activist escalation
- •Belief change as incremental, not ‘0 to 10’ moral shocks
- •Shaming strategies work inside institutions, fail in the broader public
- 1:20:03 – 1:31:54
Does the left have space for men? Work, unions, and the “MANGOS” critique
Joshua argues the current ‘elite’ left (media/academics/NGOs) is structurally hostile to men’s concerns and, often, broad coalition-building. He suggests a scalable left would look more like shop-floor union power and material politics than academic moral hierarchy, but modern work patterns make organizing harder.
- •‘MANGOS’: media, academics, NGOs as a narrow power-holding bloc
- •Casual misandry and activist gatekeeping pushing young men away
- •Union density decline and why workplace power matters
- •Remote/knowledge work complicating traditional labor organizing
- 1:31:54 – 1:53:39
Chris’s health, empathy, and staying grounded amid uncertainty
Joshua asks how Chris’s Lyme/mold health struggles affected his worldview, leading to reflections on empathy, luck, and how health shapes perception. They close by discussing the craft of asking good questions, proof-of-work credibility, and navigating uncertainty without becoming dogmatic.
- •Chronic illness as a lens: gratitude, empathy, and reduced self-righteousness
- •Why nationalized healthcare feels morally obvious from a UK perspective
- •The role of ‘question-finders’ vs. ‘answer-providers’ in public discourse
- •Experience accumulation (‘proof of work’) as a source of confidence
