The Future Of Virtual Reality | Dr Sarah Jones | Modern Wisdom Podcast 110

Chris Williamson 0:00 (wind blowing) I am joined by Dr. Sarah Jones, and before the podcast we've been nerding out on all of the different gadgets and stuff that we've got floating around our house, so that is going to be the continuation of today's episode. Sarah, welcome to the show.

Dr Sarah Jones 0:19 Thank you very much for having me.

Chris Williamson 0:21 It's a pleasure to have you on. You have the world's first PhD in immersive storytelling.

Dr Sarah Jones 0:29 Correct.

Chris Williamson 0:30 What's that? What, what-

Dr Sarah Jones 0:32 (laughs) Uh, uh-

Chris Williamson 0:32 ... what does that mean?

Dr Sarah Jones 0:33 ... I'm, I'm sure I won't be the, the, the... I won't be the only one for very long. I'm sure there'll be lots more coming up right behind me, um, with regard to immersive storytelling, and I usually say it's immersive story living, um, as a way to kind of define it a little bit more. But basically, what I do is grab any tech that I can and break it to find a new way of having a story. Um, so story living is all around that kind of immersive experience, um, where it's completely rooted in the experience, in the experiential, so therefore you can't really have a told story. It's not really a directed narrative, um, so you gotta break it apart, and then you live it in whatever way you want, therefore it's story living. Um, so yeah, I, I did my PhD, I got my PhD in story living, um, the first one, um, but yeah, it's pretty good.

Chris Williamson 1:37 That's fun. So, what are some of the examples of, of the, the kind of technologies that you work with?

Dr Sarah Jones 1:43 Um, I've always experimented with, with whatever I can get my hands on, really. So my background was in television journalism, so I was a reporter for, like, 10 years, um, traveled all the way around the world telling stories, and I always wanted to just get closer to those stories. Um, I wanted to find a way of really taking the audience and putting them in the heart of it. So I was right at the start of the mobile phone movement, um, of mobile phone filmmaking, um, and shooting and editing everything on your phones, um, and I found that that could get you closer, um, but it still wasn't close enough 'cause whenever you're watching anything, there's this barrier, and that barrier's the screen, and it's always in the way. Um, and then when I did my first kind of VR experience, I was like, "Ha ha, this is it. Now I can take you, the audience, and I can plonk you in the center of the story, and you're there, and you experience it then yourself." Um, so from all kinds

Dr Sarah Jones 2:43 of things, from normal film to, um, AR to VR to 360 film, which is obviously the easiest way to experiment, um, but at the moment, I'm, I'm really fascinated with holograms and what you can do with those. Um, and I haven't made anything decent.

Chris Williamson 3:01 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 3:02 Um, but I will. Um, so we... it's just a case of experimenting and breaking and trying to find how these technologies suit different mediums.

Chris Williamson 3:12 That's interesting. So, uh, is your... are you coming at this from a tech coding side, or are you coming at this from more of a grand perspective, what can it do, um, what's its sort of capabilities side?

Dr Sarah Jones 3:27 I think the latter-

Chris Williamson 3:29 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 3:29 ... um, and certainly more of that kind of artistic side.

Chris Williamson 3:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 3:35 Um, I tried to learn how to code probably about five, six years ago. I thought, "Okay, I really need to do this. You know, clearly I'm missing that skill." So I started learning, and then I thought, "You know what? There's people that are brilliant at this. I don't need to kill myself trying to do it. I-"

Chris Williamson 3:54 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 3:54 "... just need to find those people-"

Chris Williamson 3:56 Especially if it's not in your-

Dr Sarah Jones 3:56 "... and work with them."

Chris Williamson 3:57 ... s- s- especially if it's not in your wheelhouse. Like, there's-

Dr Sarah Jones 3:59 No.

Chris Williamson 4:00 ... s- s- some guys-

Dr Sarah Jones 4:01 E- e- exactly.

Chris Williamson 4:01 ... yeah, some guys who f- who eat that stuff for breakfast, but would find-

Dr Sarah Jones 4:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:05 ... would find the storytelling that you do, like, just crawling through glass, so you might as well.

Dr Sarah Jones 4:11 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 4:11 Might as well, might as well double down.

Dr Sarah Jones 4:12 Yeah, I mean, I, I, I have a basic knowledge. I, I can understand it. I know what I need to do.

Chris Williamson 4:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 4:18 Um, but I, I think what's really interesting about working in kind of technology for the kind of artistic side, the narrative side, the experience side, um, is there has to be a collaboration, and that collaboration means you need that specific group of people to make magic, and not one of those people can do it by themselves. You need everybody there. Um, and that's what's really exciting, really, is I feed off everybody else's mind, you know? I need to be stimulated

Dr Sarah Jones 4:49 by all those minds to make something great, um, so it's quite, quite good in that respect. Um, but yeah, certainly that kind of artistic side, looking at what can we really do with it. Um, I think a lot of the problems, um, and I've been quite critical of some people for, for doing it, is that you get a new platform or new technology and you just apply old ways of thinking to it.

Chris Williamson 5:12 What like?

Dr Sarah Jones 5:12 And that's really... and I, I think, well, it... there, there was a prime example, um, and I always name and shame them as an example is Sky-

Chris Williamson 5:20 Fine. Throw it out there.

Dr Sarah Jones 5:21 Um, yeah, so, so Sky News, um, did their first VR experience, and it was the reporter on the, the migrant crisis doing a story on the beach, and they'd obviously filmed it for a live report first off, um, as a flat, s- flat version for, for traditional television. Um, and then they, um, filmed it with a 360 camera, so they filmed it for VR, you know, 360 capturing everything, you can look around, tilt, and rotate on your phone, whatever it might be, but they did exactly the same thing. They didn't think about, "What can we do differently because we have a spherical camera? How can we tell this story differently? What does it mean from the audience perspective of watching a story flat, having the narrative told to you, or actually being there on the beach?"... how does that change what you do? And I was really critical of them for doing that, and then the next day they announced that they had a new Sky, um, VR studio. Um, so my timing wasn't great-

Chris Williamson 6:23 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 6:23 ... um, but I- I- I hold true to- to that belief that it's just really lazy. And, you know, my background is in journalism, and it always reminds me of when online journalism started. And it was just simply, you know, you get your story and you copy and you paste and you put it online, and then you upload the video. And you don't think, it's a different audience, and they're consuming it in a different way, so they need it to be different. Um, so, so I think that's really where a lot of the mistakes are, so what I try and do is start from that blank canvas and think, "What can I do that I can only do because of this technology?" Um, so it's not really technology for technology's sake.

Chris Williamson 7:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 7:06 It's more thinking, we, we owe it to the tech to make it great and to break it and find new ways of using it. Um-

Chris Williamson 7:16 So, how would you, how would you characterize the difference between the use of something for traditional flat screens and that for VR?

Dr Sarah Jones 7:24 Um, I think normally-

Chris Williamson 7:26 If you were, if you were designing it, if you were the- the- the lady that was at Sky that day on that beach, what- what, how does it look different? What do you do?

Dr Sarah Jones 7:35 It, it's about the experience. So, when- whenever I'm planning a shoot on anything, um, it's- it's always the first port of call, whereas in flat you would kind of do a storyboard, you think of your start, your middle and your end. When you're doing something for VR, um, or 360, it's closing your eyes and thinking, "What is it, what's that experience that you're trying to get somebody to experience? What is it about being in that specific place that you need to capture, and then how can you capture it?" Um, so I did something a couple of years ago in Hong Kong, um, in Chungking Mansions, uh, which is this crazy, crazy, huge international kind of market scene. Um, it's the most insane place in the world. Um, totally chaotic. Um, 4,000 people staying there in all these really cheap hostels, like the cheapest place that you can stay. Um, and going in there, you know, it's dark, it's dingy, um, there's so many different smells and noises and everything is going on, going on. So for me, being in that environment, I was like, "I need to capture that." And capturing an experience and a feeling is really difficult to do. It's not like just telling the story, like, you know, "Oh, the smells are so intense and these people are doing this." You know, you can't do that. You've got to put someone in the heart of it. So, so to do that, I broke all of the kind of very early, um, introductory editing conventions in VR, um. I had a lot of moving shots, because I wanted e- people to feel disjointed, um, and uneasy. I had various kind of carrying shots so you were at different levels. I had lots of quick edits, um, to make people feel jarred, um, and that was how you could capture the experience. So it's all coming down to that, really. Instead of what is the story that I'm trying to tell, it's what is the experience that I'm trying to create? And that- it's a real shift in the mindset. It's really hard to try and think in that way. Um, it can be easier in some ways, but a lot harder in others.

Chris Williamson 9:46 I suppose, thinking about it, the, w- when you are trying to capture something for flat screen, your position in terms of camera is framing the scene as is best appropriate, whereas for VR, it's literally the point of view. It's what is the optimal point of view. Is that, is that the distinction between the two?

Dr Sarah Jones 10:07 Yeah, absolutely. And there is no frame. You know, the- the frame has gone.

Chris Williamson 10:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 10:12 Um, you- you always have, like, this- this frame in front of you on- on a flat screen, and then suddenly that's gone. Um, I can make something and have 10 different people watch it in 10 completely different ways, taking different narratives from it. Um, it doesn't always have to be that way, and a lot of people do try and direct the narrative and use cues, um, like lights and sounds and- and force the gaze to different places.

Chris Williamson 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 10:47 Um, but I tend to argue against that and think, "No, I want people to just experience it." And we all experience things in different ways, um, so let's forget about that and put the trust in the audience to just let them create their own experience.

Chris Williamson 11:00 Mm-hmm. It's not as if-

Dr Sarah Jones 11:02 Um, might be me being lazy, but it works.

Chris Williamson 11:04 Well, it's not as if, it's not as if you can't watch it again, as well. So I- I got a, I got an Oculus Rift actually off an ex-missus. I got an Oculus Rift, I've sold it now. Uh, but, uh-

Dr Sarah Jones 11:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:14 (laughs) I got, (laughs) I got an Oculus Rift off an- off an ex-missus and, um, one of the things that I found myself doing was watching the same sequence multiple times-

Dr Sarah Jones 11:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:25 ... because you can only see however much is in your field of vision, and you know, "Well, uh, actually, I'll go back and I'll have a look, I'll see what happens if I look that way for it."

Dr Sarah Jones 11:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:34 Whereas once you've watched it flat screen, that's it, right? There's no, there's no more-

Dr Sarah Jones 11:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:39 ... nuance really.

Dr Sarah Jones 11:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:40 There's a lot less nuance at least.

Dr Sarah Jones 11:42 Yeah. I mean, you can go back and I mean, I- I remember, um, watching Breaking Bad and then watching it so many times having read all the- the different color cues and all those kinds of things. Um, but that's very, very different. Um, certainly in VR, you- you can have different people watch it in totally different ways, um, and that's really exciting. It's really hard if you're trying to direct something and you want the control. So for control freaks, it's awful.

Chris Williamson 12:10 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 12:10 Um, but it is really interesting just letting go...... and thinking, yeah, people will experience it however they want, so let's let them. Um, so, so yeah. I mean, what's really interesting, you mentioned it, the Rift, the new Oculus Quest is a game changer.

Chris Williamson 12:32 Ooh, what's that one? What's that?

Dr Sarah Jones 12:34 So the Oculus Quest came out, oh, I think maybe about two months ago, um, which is one of the first real standalone VR headsets. You obviously have the Gear.

Chris Williamson 12:45 I had a Go. I had a Go. Sorry. I had an Oculus Go, but that was it.

Dr Sarah Jones 12:47 Yeah. Oh, okay. So the Quest is the next step up from the Go.

Chris Williamson 12:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 12:53 Um, so the Quest you've got two controllers. Um-

Chris Williamson 12:56 Okay.

Dr Sarah Jones 12:57 ... and you've got a, a, a space around you. You can play Beat Saber, which is one of the greatest games in VR ever.

Chris Williamson 13:04 What's that? (laughs) What's Beat Saber?

Dr Sarah Jones 13:05 Um, Beat, Beat Saber is like, um, remember the '90s or may- maybe the noughties, um, the dance challenge mats in arcades?

Chris Williamson 13:13 Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 13:13 Where you used to have to jump and, and, you know, your right foot and your left foot and dance around? Um, it's like that but in VR. But you're hitting these things. So, so to watch other people doing it, it's a little bit weird.

Chris Williamson 13:25 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 13:25 Um, but you watch them and you're just like banging to, to different music, those beats.

Chris Williamson 13:31 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 13:31 Um, and it's awesome. It's an incredible exercise. Um, but it's really, really cool. Um, so, so highly recommend anybody playing Beat Saber. Um, and that's probably one of the things that's driving sales of Oculus Quest 'cause everyone wants to play Beat Saber.

Chris Williamson 13:47 Really? Wow.

Dr Sarah Jones 13:48 And now you don't need a huge laptop, um, or PC to run it. It just runs. Um, so I think with that, um, and then VIVE have their own one coming out as well, where again, you don't need to be tethered to a machine. Um, that's all massive, you know. This is huge, really. It might actually allow the tech to be more accessible, um, which is good.

Chris Williamson 14:13 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 14:13 Like that has to be a good thing.

Chris Williamson 14:14 Yeah. I think one of the things that I noticed, um, 'cause I've seen floating around for a while, PlayStation VR, um, and when Oculus first came out where I think it was like you needed an Android phone or something to link it up to and other bits. And I was just thinking, it, it just feels quite clunky and it's not really that cool. And then even the Oculus Go, I mean, that's, I didn't pay for it, but even the Oculus Go that I had last year, um, I, I thought was, was cool and I enjoyed watching things. But what I was conscious of, and I, I did a little bit of reading. Um, can you explain to the listeners what happens to the resolution of, of video when you then start to wrap it, it into the, the headset? Because I instantly noticed some of the videos I was watching looked lower quality.

Dr Sarah Jones 15:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:03 But apparently that was more to do with the, the way that it needs to communicate it to your eyes. Is that right?

Dr Sarah Jones 15:08 Yeah. It, it can be. So, um, different, um, headsets, and it'll all be whether you downloaded them or whether you're streaming them and however you're doing it. Um, I always, um, get questions around, you know, "I, I want to make something in 360." "I want a 360 camera." "Which one shall I buy?" Um, and there, there's one camera that I use all the time, um, as a basic entry level kind of prosumer camera. Um, which is the Insta360 ONE X. Um, Insta360 make a great range of cameras, um, really, really great company. Um, and theirs, it now says, the ONE X, is 5.7K. So you think, "Brilliant, this is really good. Like this is gonna be great in a headset."

Chris Williamson 15:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 15:53 But those 5.7K pixels are being, you know, if you're watching something flat, it's in front of you in that resolution. We now have to put all of those resolution, th- those pixels all the way around us. So it's the 360-degree image that's made up of all of those pixels.

Chris Williamson 16:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 16:14 So it's never gonna be as good as watching uh, a ultra HD television, flat, massive screen, all that kind of thing.

Chris Williamson 16:22 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 16:22 It's just not. Um, but it is getting better. Um-

Chris Williamson 16:27 I was gonna say, where's the tech at now?

Dr Sarah Jones 16:28 I mean-

Chris Williamson 16:28 Where, what's it progressing to? 'Cause I think, I think the stats when I had a Go were that if you downloaded something, weren't streaming it, uh, had it on optimal resolution, all this sort of stuff, it could get to about 720p. Is that right?

Dr Sarah Jones 16:42 Um, no, I think you can go up to 1080 on, on, on the Quest. And it isn't bad.

Chris Williamson 16:50 Not bad.

Dr Sarah Jones 16:50 Like it's, it's good.

Chris Williamson 16:52 We just got so spoiled with 4K and Samsung-

Dr Sarah Jones 16:55 I know.

Chris Williamson 16:56 ... Super AMOLED, Super Dark Sharp Display.

Dr Sarah Jones 16:58 A- absolutely.

Chris Williamson 16:59 And all that stuff.

Dr Sarah Jones 16:59 Yeah. I mean, I would say that after, after a couple of minutes in it, you get used to it.

Chris Williamson 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 17:07 Your eyes adjust to it. Um, and then it all becomes normal. Um, so I, I lived in VR for 48 hours a couple of years ago.

Chris Williamson 17:16 No way. (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 17:16 Um, one, one of those, you know, crazy things you decide on a day out you're gonna do.

Chris Williamson 17:22 How would you go to the bathrooms?

Dr Sarah Jones 17:24 Um, I had a five-minute comfort break every hour.

Chris Williamson 17:26 Okay, cool.

Dr Sarah Jones 17:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:29 Right. What about like-

Dr Sarah Jones 17:30 One of those things.

Chris Williamson 17:31 ... eating with, with you drinking with it on?

Dr Sarah Jones 17:33 Yeah, eating in a headset, drinking in a headset.

Chris Williamson 17:35 Sleeping with it on?

Dr Sarah Jones 17:36 Sleeping in a headset, working in a headset. Um-

Chris Williamson 17:39 Oh my God.

Dr Sarah Jones 17:40 ... racing car driving in a headset in real life, but with like the look-through camera through, through the headset. Um, all those kinds of things. Um, I, I did it with a, a, a, a colleague, a VR colleague of mine, um, Dean Johnson. We, we did it together. Um, he got a tattoo, um, wearing a headset to monitor the difference in heart rate based on your, um, whether it could be a pain reducer.

Chris Williamson 18:09 Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 18:10 Um, wearing a headset, which it did. His heart rate went down dramatically when he was wearing the headset. Um, so all those kinds of things. Um, really, really interesting. Um, but when I was doing that, I, I generally don't like cartoony things in VR. I, I like photogrammetry. I like realism. I, I like to feel like it's real.

Chris Williamson 18:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 18:31 ... um, but we were doing a boxing thing with this real cartoonish dude. Um, he looked like one of the characters from The Incredibles, um, and I was like, "Oh," you know, "I, I don't believe it's real at all." Um, but after a couple of minutes boxing him, it really felt real. Um, and there was some things there around the haptics, like there was a, a vibration as you were punching him. Um, the screen would go black as if, like, when you got knocked, as if you were like, you know, a little bit starry-eyed and losing your vision slightly. Um, so there were loads of things like that, that really tricked your mind, um, and you kind of get used to it. So, yeah, the resolution's not all that great, but it's getting there.

Chris Williamson 19:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 19:16 It's getting better.

Chris Williamson 19:17 Yeah. I mean, it's-

Dr Sarah Jones 19:18 I have faith (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 19:18 It's a hell of a lot... Uh, uh, don't get me wrong. It's a hell of a lot more immersive than, than watching something on a TV that's at the end of your bed or-

Dr Sarah Jones 19:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:25 ... or in, or in the... mounted on the wall in the living room.

Dr Sarah Jones 19:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:28 It's definitely a very different sort of experience. So, what do you think at the moment, if you were to put your money where your mouth was, and someone... let's say someone has a, a, a VR headset at home and they want to see the, the coolest thing or the most impressive thing, or just your favorite thing right now, where would you direct them? What should they watch and what is it and why?

Dr Sarah Jones 19:52 Oh, this is really difficult because for the last couple of years I've been really bored (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 20:01 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 20:02 As a huge advocate for the technology, um, I have been really bored.

Chris Williamson 20:10 Why?

Dr Sarah Jones 20:11 Because I've felt... I've felt like there's, there's been a lot of pressure on people to make stuff, um, obviously for commercial reasons, and to find an audience, and to do all that kind of stuff, and it doesn't allow people the time to be creative and break things a little bit and understand the different things that you can do. Um, and you need that time. You know, it's a new tech... well, it's not a new technology. It's been around since the ni- 1965 was the first headset, so it's been around forever. Um, but you need time to really find the good stuff, um, and that's quite hard to find. So, I mean, there are great... like Beat Saber is a great game, uh, really, really good. Um, if you like to have social VR, you know, you can go into Netflix in a headset and watch something as if you're in the cinema.

Chris Williamson 21:14 Mm.

Dr Sarah Jones 21:14 And that might be to some people's tastes. Um, I don't understand it personally, 'cause I would just watch Netflix on my TV. Um, but, you know, it, it can happen. Um, so there's things like that. Um, I like VR less so for being at home, but in a social experience and an event. So I'm a big fan of that full kind of immersive experience. Um, there's something on in London at the moment, um, that's an immersive experience of War of the Worlds.

Chris Williamson 21:51 Oh, wow.

Dr Sarah Jones 21:51 Um, and it's a two, three-hour experience. Um, it's an event as if you're going to the theater. There are actors there that sweep you arou- along and take you into different places. Um, you go through one area and then suddenly people are throwing a, a rucksack on your back, a sub pack, um, strapping a headset to you-

Chris Williamson 22:12 Oh my God.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:12 ... and then you're off somewhere else. So within-

Chris Williamson 22:14 Are the tickets still available for this?

Dr Sarah Jones 22:16 Yeah. They've just released new dates and it's on until January.

Chris Williamson 22:19 Oh.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:19 So it's definitely worth checking out.

Chris Williamson 22:21 Right. That's... that is it.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:21 Um, yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:23 S- so I'm gonna put... I'm gonna put it in now.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:24 Cool.

Chris Williamson 22:24 I'm gonna put in War of the Worlds.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:26 It's, it's Dot to Dot, um, the, the creators, um, and it's a proper experience.

Chris Williamson 22:32 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 22:32 It, it's as if you're going to the theater.

Chris Williamson 22:34 Have they got anything to do with the Star Wars one that was on-

Dr Sarah Jones 22:37 No.

Chris Williamson 22:38 Do you remember that one?

Dr Sarah Jones 22:39 That, that was-

Chris Williamson 22:39 Was that similar?

Dr Sarah Jones 22:40 ... The VOID.

Chris Williamson 22:40 Yes.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:40 Yeah, that was The VOID. So, so The VOID did Ghostbusters as well. Um, The VOID are a huge company. They've been bought by Disney now. Um-

Chris Williamson 22:49 Of course they have.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:50 (laughs) Obviously.

Chris Williamson 22:51 Of course.

Dr Sarah Jones 22:52 Um, but they do those big, immersive experiences. And for me, that's where the technology really comes alive-

Chris Williamson 23:00 Mm.

Dr Sarah Jones 23:00 ... because you've got it as a group, um, but you can add so much to the experience by having it in a headset. So, you know, you, you jump into a, a frame of a boat in real life, but then you'd put on a headset, and then you would be in the boat.

Chris Williamson 23:16 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 23:16 So, so you've got all these different things going on and there's various light projections and, um, holograms and that kind of stuff as well. Um, and you have an interval when you're in this bar and all the tables changing color and lighting up and everything else. Um, and then you carry on with the experience. And that kind of thing is great-

Chris Williamson 23:35 Yeah. That's cool.

Dr Sarah Jones 23:35 ... because you are sharing it. Um, even me and as nerdy as I am-

Chris Williamson 23:40 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 23:40 ... I don't sit at home in the evening and go, "You know what? I'm gonna stick on my headset for a bit-"

Chris Williamson 23:45 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 23:45 "... and, you know, jump into another world."

Chris Williamson 23:46 Watch a bit of Loose Women from today or whatever it is. Yeah. It's-

Dr Sarah Jones 23:50 Yeah, exactly. It's like-

Chris Williamson 23:51 It does feel a bit lame, doesn't it?

Dr Sarah Jones 23:51 ... "I might just watch the TV."

Chris Williamson 23:53 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 23:53 Yeah. There, there's something that I, I don't... it's, it's a lot of effort.

Chris Williamson 24:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 24:01 Um, and also, if you think ab- (laughs) about how awful a lot of people are now, we watch TV at the same time as we might be working on our laptop in the evening, at the same time that we might be, um, Instagramming something else or checking someone else's social, and we're doing multiple things at the time, at one time.

Chris Williamson 24:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 24:20 In a headset, you can't do that. You're stuck (laughs) so you've got to be really in something-

Chris Williamson 24:27 You've gotta be watching something good.

Dr Sarah Jones 24:28 ... to give it all that attention. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:30 Yeah. You can't be watching something boring.

Dr Sarah Jones 24:31 Um, no. But, I mean, there are some... there's a great experience at, um, Versace and... see, all of these are experiences that you go to.

Chris Williamson 24:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 24:39 Um, Charlotte Micklebird did a, a great, um, Flight of the Future experience, where you're in this, um, this kind of, um, sphere kind of light up thing, um, and you were leaning against something and you had to flap your wings to become a bird and learn to, how to fly. So you started to fly, and then it took you on the whole journey of flights, so from the first flight, um, up into future flights. It was all sponsored by British Airways. Um, and that was really interesting again. So you had these different experiences. You added in different scents. You added in heat. There was wind. Um, so you had this full kind of i- um, immersion on lots of different levels. Um, and that was really cool. So there are really good things being done, but sitting at home saying, "Oh, I must watch this," or, "I must watch that-"

Chris Williamson 25:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 25:34 ... um, it's still quite limited-

Chris Williamson 25:37 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 25:38 ... I think.

Chris Williamson 25:39 I found s- I found, like, I think last year, I was watching sport li- on Facebook Live in a headset.

Dr Sarah Jones 25:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:46 And I, there was a part of me that thought, "There's novelty to this," but there was another part of me that was thinking, "I don't think this is that cool or fun, it's just a bit novel." Am I-

Dr Sarah Jones 25:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:57 ... should I, should I be thinking it's cooler 'cause everyone else thinks VR's like the future? And-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:02 ... you're right. It's repurposing existing content in an existing format and just-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:06 ... putting it in a worse resolution, but closer to your eyes.

Dr Sarah Jones 26:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:10 That's what, that's what that is. And then yeah, the-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:13 ... the, i- in the flip side of that, the Star Trek, uh, Star Wars Void thing that I desperately tried to get two of the co-hosts, Johnny and Yousef, to go to-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:21 ... but I'm gonna force them to go to this War of the Worlds thing so the listener-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:24 ... is, I'm gonna hold them accountable-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:25 ... and we'll talk about it on a future podcast. Um, that, you know, that sounds really, really cool. Um-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:30 ... we were at a freshers event, um, earlier on this week, and they had one of the stalls there, I don't even know, I don't think it would've been anything tremendously sophisticated, but this brand just had a VR headset.

Dr Sarah Jones 26:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:44 And they were like, "Come over and you can race a car or do whatever it is." So I think there's still so much novelty and so few people-

Dr Sarah Jones 26:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:51 ... have been exposed to the technology that you can just put a off-the-shelf probably, um, uh, headset, pop it on someone and be like, "Look, like this is, this is how crazy and quirky we are as a company."

Dr Sarah Jones 27:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:04 Um, so yeah, there, I guess there's a lot of low-hanging fruit for people-

Dr Sarah Jones 27:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:07 ... to do that. Um, one of the things that I noticed, again with the Oculus Go, uh, was the file size of these videos is insane, like for, for the, especially for the long ones. There's a Jurassic Park one, did you see that one?

Dr Sarah Jones 27:22 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:22 It was called Blue.

Dr Sarah Jones 27:24 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:24 Um, and that's, that was awesome. That was my favorite one. I thought that was really cool.

Dr Sarah Jones 27:27 (laughs) It's huge, isn't it? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:28 The file size is terrifying. It's only three, three or four minutes long, but this file size is insane. Um, and even with that, you can only move, you don't move, you are moved on a, on a track through this particular f- film.

Dr Sarah Jones 27:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:44 So you can imagine that you're walking through a jungle and stuff happens, and you can pan around with your headset, but you can't control the motion. If you were to start to create worlds that were rendered to that sort of resolution, plus were, um, being created as you go, I'm gonna guess that's, that's, uh, technology that's not quite ready yet. Is that right?

Dr Sarah Jones 28:09 Well, no, I mean, it is if you're tethered to a computer.

Chris Williamson 28:12 Okay.

Dr Sarah Jones 28:12 So if you've got, um, the, the Rift or the Vive, um, and certainly to, to some degree, you've got that on the Quest as well, which is really good. Um, so you are starting to open up those kind of multiple worlds. Um, not infinite, obviously, um, but different ways that you can move around and explore different areas. So that's really happening now.

Chris Williamson 28:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 28:35 Um, which is great, um, 'cause-

Chris Williamson 28:38 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 28:38 ... that's what's needed. Um, it's really difficult in, in things where if I work with film and I work with 360, then you can't really do it with that. It, it's not really there. Um, there's ways to add interactivity, but not freedom really o- of space. You need to be using kind of photogrammetry, um, where you're taking like millions and millions of images, um, of one thing and splicing it all together, um, squishing it all together, um, to, to create a, a, a digital, um, image. Um, so you can start doing that, um, but it is moving really quickly, obviously starting back in 1965, but it now it's moving really quickly. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 29:22 Um... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:23 It's picking up, picking up pace.

Dr Sarah Jones 29:24 Always.

Chris Williamson 29:25 But-

Dr Sarah Jones 29:25 It, it's picking up pace.

Chris Williamson 29:26 ... it's weird with this stuff though, right, because we're, we're seeing in front of our eyes how, um-

Dr Sarah Jones 29:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:31 ... multiple areas of technology need to be able to come together to enable something. So with this, let's say that, um, X number of years ago, we would've had the lens capability to have been able to show what was going on, but because of the em- the file sizes, you actually need the storage, and then potentially-

Dr Sarah Jones 29:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:46 ... if you want to have something which is standalone, you need a battery. The battery on the Oculus Go was terrible.

Dr Sarah Jones 29:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:51 Like there was periods where I couldn't get the Oculus Go to charge because it didn't have enough battery to start up and it would like-

Dr Sarah Jones 29:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:58 ... buzz its whole, uh, charge-

Dr Sarah Jones 30:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:00 ... down just trying to start up on charge. That was weird.

Dr Sarah Jones 30:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:03 Um-

Dr Sarah Jones 30:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:03 ... again, I s- I saw the note anyway, so, um.

Dr Sarah Jones 30:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:06 But, uh, um, yeah, and looking at these file sizes, we need better storage, we need to be able to make sure that that's-

Dr Sarah Jones 30:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:14 ... that, that, that's able to happen and, and stuff like that. So yeah, it's weird how all of these, you were talking earlier on about how everyone needs to play a role.

Dr Sarah Jones 30:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:22 Uh, and that's-

Dr Sarah Jones 30:23 And, uh, I mean now with like 5G and all that kind of stuff, that's gonna make things really, like that will help, that, that will make things better. Um, and it is getting easier. Um, I mean, I, I remember when, uh-... when I first started filming things, um, having to try and stitch it all together manually. So, so I would film on rig- Oh, sorry, I've just dropped you there.

Chris Williamson 30:47 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 30:47 Um, I, I'd film on, um, rigs of loads of GoPros, and then I would have to put it through, um, software to stitch each of those images together to create one spherical image.

Chris Williamson 31:00 Oh, my God.

Dr Sarah Jones 31:02 Um, and now, it's mostly done the- there's lots of programs you can put things through, and it does it all for you. Um, I still try and manually stitch, 'cause it took me so long to learn how to do it flawlessly. Um, but the, the algorithms are great, you know? It just happens. Um, but those are those kinds of things that through a group working within this space, it's getting easier. Um, I did a, I worked with Google on, um, a couple of different experiences, and they gave me one of their, their Google, um, Odyssey cameras. This Jump, I was one of their Jump creators. And it was basically a 16 GoPro rig.

Chris Williamson 31:44 Okay.

Dr Sarah Jones 31:44 It was huge.

Chris Williamson 31:45 All right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 31:45 It was massive. Um, the, the power bank that it ran off was like this massive kind of-

Chris Williamson 31:52 You got this big backpack on, yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 31:54 ... like huge thing. Um, yeah, well, it, it, you couldn't even carry it. I couldn't carry it. Um, you know, it was not mobile filmmaking whatsoever. Um, but, but it was great. Um, and with all of that, you, they, they developed a software that you just plugged it all in, and it went up to the cloud, and they stitched it and then they told you when it was ready. Um, the file sizes meant that it took bet- anywhere between five and seven days to stitch- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:22 Oh, my God.

Dr Sarah Jones 32:22 ... these cameras together.

Chris Williamson 32:24 Wow.

Dr Sarah Jones 32:25 And you're just like, "This is how big it was."

Chris Williamson 32:27 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 32:27 I've had things like rendering for about 16 hours at a time.

Chris Williamson 32:32 Oh, my God, yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 32:33 Um, but it is getting so much better (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 32:35 Mm-hmm, yeah-

Dr Sarah Jones 32:36 ... now.

Chris Williamson 32:36 I understand. I, we believe you, honestly, Dr., Dr. Jones-

Dr Sarah Jones 32:39 (laughs) I know. She goes, "It's getting better."

Chris Williamson 32:39 ... we believe you that it's getting better. I know it is.

Dr Sarah Jones 32:42 (laughs) Honestly, um, yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:43 Um, so is there ever, is there ever gonna be a time where we're going to see blockbuster films filmed f- in full VR, or do you think that the, uh, inherent difficulty in all of the d- the, um, added elements that you need to be able to control is just going to make that a no-no?

Dr Sarah Jones 33:02 No, I think they will. Um, I think there's one feature-length VR film that's come out, um, that one of the longest films kind of that I've seen that I think is a good length, um, was around 18 minutes. That was, um, a piece, um, called CTRL, C-T-R-L, um, which was one of the most powerful pieces that I've seen. Um, and it was a good few years ago. Um, and it was all, it was around the gaming community, um, esports, um, but there was lot, lots of darkness around. I don't wanna say too much in case anyone manages to see it-

Chris Williamson 33:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 33:40 ... um, 'cause it's really, really powerful. Um, so, so that's the kind of maximum length that you get for a lot of experiences, that kind of 18 minutes max, most around 8 to 10 for, for kind of a normal experience. Um, but, but I, I think there will, um, but it might not be film as we know it. So, it might not be sitting down and watching something for, you know, 120 minutes. Um, it might involve more movement or activity, um, so that's quite different then. Um, so yes, but not as we know it. Um, and I don't think we would go to the cinema and then on the seat in front of us, there would be a headset that we-

Chris Williamson 34:29 Pop a headset on.

Dr Sarah Jones 34:29 ... would then put on.

Chris Williamson 34:30 I understand.

Dr Sarah Jones 34:31 Um, but, but I could see that happening more in kind of theater companies, that there's part of, and, and I know a lot of theater companies have experimented with that, that there's part of a production that might be augmented or there might be a different layer of technology used. Um, and that's really exciting. For me, the biggest uses will be VR within those kinds of immersive experiences, theater, art galleries, shared experiences, um, and then more use will be with augmented reality, um, because it's easy. It's on our phones.

Chris Williamson 35:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 35:05 You know, we can engage with different things on our phones. Um, we will eventually have holograms in our eyes. We can project whatever-

Chris Williamson 35:15 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 35:15 ... we want on the wall. Um, we could be watching the same television, but watching two different programs just through whatever our, our lenses-

Chris Williamson 35:23 Oh. (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 35:23 ... what we're programmed to do. Um, but that's what I think will happen.

Chris Williamson 35:28 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 35:28 Like, I think that's where we will go, and that's much more likely to happen than people sticking headsets on-

Chris Williamson 35:36 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 35:36 ... because it's too intrusive.

Chris Williamson 35:37 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 35:38 Um, and they're still heavy and it ruins your hair and it leaves marks around your face and-

Chris Williamson 35:44 Does look like you've been punched, yeah. Looks like you've been punched a lot.

Dr Sarah Jones 35:46 Yeah. Imagine what we'd look, look like after 48 hours (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 35:48 Oh, my God, yeah. We, did you have to peel it off? You had to like, like (scraping sound) -

Dr Sarah Jones 35:52 (laughs) No, they would like freeze it.

Chris Williamson 35:53 ... pull it off?

Dr Sarah Jones 35:54 We, we were swapping with lots of different headsets. We were using the Gear VR headsets. This was in the day when Samsung was still great, um, in VR. Uh, we were using the Rift, we were using the Vive, we were using the PlayStation that had just come out, so, so yeah, we had lots of different headsets.

Chris Williamson 36:09 Marks, yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 36:09 Um, yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:10 So you mentioned, you mentioned-

Dr Sarah Jones 36:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:11 At the very start, you mentioned holograms. Like, I-

Dr Sarah Jones 36:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:14 For me, a hologram is the security seal on the back of my driving license, and that thing that brought Michael Jackson back to life that one time.

Dr Sarah Jones 36:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:24 And I think they brought, I think they brought Tupac back as well.

Dr Sarah Jones 36:27 (laughs) Yeah, he brought Tupac back.

Chris Williamson 36:27 What, what's a hologram in your world?

Dr Sarah Jones 36:29 Yeah. Uh, well, there's talk at the moment, there was meant to be an Amy Winehouse hologram tour. And, you, you know, the, the, the technology that's being used-... for holograms is really interesting, um, and a little creepy maybe. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:45 How does it work?

Dr Sarah Jones 36:46 Um, so, so it works, well, in- in a number of different ways. So they can, um, use old footage and they can also recreate, um, and get mannerisms right. Some use, um, like big green screens and motion capture. Um, others are using loads and loads of digital images, um, from past footage and putting them all together. Um, and then it's just projections. It- it's like a normal hologram that you would do with a, a CD case and projecting, um, lights in and, and creating things that you might, you might do if you're nerdy at home-

Chris Williamson 37:20 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 37:20 ... um, which I'm sure everybody does.

Chris Williamson 37:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 37:23 Um, (laughs) so, so, yeah, so, so that, that's, you know, I'd say it's really, really simple. It's obviously not.

Chris Williamson 37:30 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 37:30 It's hugely technical, um, and costs a fortune. Um, but I think with, um, with the technology from HoloLens and obviously Microsoft have been working on, you can really start to think how might you use holograms as a storytelling technique, um, interacting, um, in different ways. And, and there is a really interesting experience which I cannot remember the name of it. I can see the poster for it. It was at Sheffield Doc/Fest around two years ago. I will let you know 'cause it is really, really interesting, um, where it was, um, an immigration officer and you were, you had to decide whether to let people into the country or not based on their stories.

Chris Williamson 38:18 Oh, wow.

Dr Sarah Jones 38:18 So you were grilling them and it was all on the HoloLens, so more of an augmented reality. You can see through with the glasses and it's projecting in front of you, so it's not a VR headset.

Chris Williamson 38:29 Okay.

Dr Sarah Jones 38:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:30 So, so, so you're not-

Dr Sarah Jones 38:32 Um-

Chris Williamson 38:32 ... you're not watching something, you're seeing the real world, and then is it overlaying? What's the difference between that hologram-

Dr Sarah Jones 38:40 Yeah. It's, it's overlaying.

Chris Williamson 38:40 ... and AR then?

Dr Sarah Jones 38:41 Um, it's very, very similar technology, so, so yeah. The, the HoloLens... Well, the hologram is simply the, the way that it's projected, so-

Chris Williamson 38:49 Understood.

Dr Sarah Jones 38:50 ... the light beam's coming down on there and projecting on there.

Chris Williamson 38:53 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 38:53 Um, where with AR it's more of that digital representation. Um, but they, they were using, um, the HoloLens to, to have these characters who you had to interview to decide whether they would get into the country or not, and determine, and determined by your language that you were choosing to use and the decisions you made. The holograms would get more real, they'd, they'd get more vibrant, um, or they would be slowly withering away.

Chris Williamson 39:23 Oh, right.

Dr Sarah Jones 39:24 Um, and I thought that was a really interesting way. It was very early days. This is like two years ago at Sheffield, um, but it was a really interesting way of how you might use that technology, um, to interact with things. Um, so I do think with augmented reality and with holograms, you can start, start seeing things a little bit differently.

Chris Williamson 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 39:47 Um-

Chris Williamson 39:48 'Cause I'm watching, uh, uh-

Dr Sarah Jones 39:48 And that might be interesting.

Chris Williamson 39:50 The other day, I started watching the new Blade Runner which has just gone, gone up on Netflix, and in that-

Dr Sarah Jones 39:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:55 ... uh, Ryan Gosling. Ryan Gosling?

Dr Sarah Jones 39:58 Yeah. Is it-

Chris Williamson 39:59 Yeah, Ryan Gosling.

Dr Sarah Jones 39:59 He's one of the Ryans.

Chris Williamson 40:01 It's Ryan someone. Has got, um... It's not Ryan Reynolds. Sorry, it's Ryan Gosling.

Dr Sarah Jones 40:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:05 He's got a, a f- fake girlfriend that's supplied to him by this company-

Dr Sarah Jones 40:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:10 ... and she's walking through, and we've seen this in films million times, right? Like, is that, is that going to be possible to be able to have that, to be able to project something 3D into the air which is broadly opaque as well and is able to move through? Um, because obviously the hologram at the moment, I didn't quite know that it was still essentially just that CD case projector type thing.

Dr Sarah Jones 40:34 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:35 You can't have this big backdrop moving around or else it's gonna start clattering into your tables and chairs when it's supposed to be sitting down.

Dr Sarah Jones 40:42 Yeah, exactly but-

Chris Williamson 40:42 Is there anything on the, on the, the horizon that allows us to do anything like that?

Dr Sarah Jones 40:47 I'm sure there's lots of people working on that.

Chris Williamson 40:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 40:49 Um, and, and certainly when you're, you're looking at kind of lenses in your eyes and, you know, different glasses that you might be wearing, um, which is what HoloLens, Microsoft's HoloLens is, and Magic Leap and all of those. That's what they're working on, um, always hugely top secret. Um, but, you know, that, that kind of technology is allowing that. I mean, simply if you look at, you know, obviously in the real kind of crass basic version, when you've got Pokemon Go-

Chris Williamson 41:20 Yep.

Dr Sarah Jones 41:20 ... and you're playing with the little, little things around and they're in the house and they might be, might be in your room-

Chris Williamson 41:28 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 41:28 ... um, you, you've got them-

Chris Williamson 41:30 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 41:30 ... obviously through the lens of your phone. Um, but if that's being projected in different ways, um, you, you can see, you can see that, but then i- is it any different then to, you know, cyber relationships in the '80s or the '90s-

Chris Williamson 41:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 41:47 ... and-

Chris Williamson 41:47 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 41:47 ... you know?

Chris Williamson 41:47 It's just a case of, it's just a case of scaling that technology either up or down, however you want to look at it, so that you've got it-

Dr Sarah Jones 41:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:53 ... always on, potentially in your eyes, potentially always overlaid over the top of things. You are right, I guess-

Dr Sarah Jones 41:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:59 ... I guess the, what we're talking about with this hologram, the, the, um, Blade Runner hologram versus Pokemon Go is simply a case of convenience. Is it in your eyes? Is it always on? Do you actually-

Dr Sarah Jones 42:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:11 ... have this sense that you're doing something or is it just a part of your day-to-day life? What, um, um-

Dr Sarah Jones 42:16 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:16 Has Google Glass been discontinued?

Dr Sarah Jones 42:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:19 Did that get stopped?

Dr Sarah Jones 42:20 Yeah. Yeah, so-

Chris Williamson 42:21 What did they do with that? They just, they, they, they just fuck it?

Dr Sarah Jones 42:23 Yeah. I, I was a glasshole. I, I tried glass.

Chris Williamson 42:27 Oh, that's a great word.

Dr Sarah Jones 42:28 Um, yeah. I, I was one of those. I've got lots of photos of me, you know, with my glass on going, "Oh." Um-

Chris Williamson 42:35 Working out the weather.

Dr Sarah Jones 42:37 Yeah. And I kind of felt really sad for them, because I thought the ambition is there-

Chris Williamson 42:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 42:46 ... the technology isn't (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 42:47 Okay, so what- what were the stumbling blocks?

Dr Sarah Jones 42:49 And that- that's the problem. Um, first of all, you look like a Glass hole (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 42:56 Okay, yeah. Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 42:56 ... you know? It- it- it wasn't very comfortable. You- f- for me, I felt like, you know, it's quite narrow glass, and you had to look up constantly to see what was being projected.

Chris Williamson 43:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 43:08 So if you had, like, your normal glass, you were looking up here-

Chris Williamson 43:11 Yep.

Dr Sarah Jones 43:12 ... all the time. Um, and that's really quite uncomfortable (laughs) . It's a bit, "Uh, what am I doing? What am I doing?" I kind of look really gormless because I'm looking up all the time. Um, but the intention was there. Um, you know, what Snapchat have done with their Snapchat Glasses and filming from the Glasses all the time, um, and being able to, you know, broadcast whatever it is you're seeing at any time, that was quite similar to what Glass were doing. So if you went into- into Filming mode with Glass, it would be filming you cycling on your way to work, um, which is just what- what Snapchat's done with their lenses. Um, so there- there's quite a few people kind of experimenting with, you know, what is it like? But there is still that huge kind of privacy issue, that concern around, you know, what are you capturing all the time? Um, you know, that's really hard, and it's really hard to navigate that. And there- there aren't th- th- there aren't enough kind of laws or regulations in place to be able to govern all of that or answer any of those concerns, um, and that's a massive question. So-

Chris Williamson 44:22 Isn't it weird- isn't it weird that- that- that people would naturally have a- a inclination against that, but probably 50% of people got a smart speaker in their home now?

Dr Sarah Jones 44:32 Yeah, exactly. Well, that's the thing. Glass is what? 2012? So maybe it would be different. Uh, I'm not sure. Um-

Chris Williamson 44:43 I think it's something-

Dr Sarah Jones 44:44 But yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:45 Uh, it- it's interesting the fact that it's to do with the visual. So in James Clear's book-

Dr Sarah Jones 44:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:50 ... Atomic Habits, he gives this great fact that he says, "In the human body, there's about 14 million cells that are dedicated to sense, and 11 million of them are dedicated to sight." That's how highly we discriminate, uh-

Dr Sarah Jones 45:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:03 ... our- our sight over other of the senses.

Dr Sarah Jones 45:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:06 Um, and there was a... Someone will be able to tell me what this is. There was a YouTube video that I watched not long ago where it was trying to show people how, um, uncomfortable they felt when they realized they were, uh, under surveillance. And this person went in and sat down straight in front of a couple at a restaurant and just had the camera like that and just didn't say anything. And people started freaking out, started just-

Dr Sarah Jones 45:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:34 ... losing their shit. Or he'd sit down next to someone who was reading the paper at a park bench and just put the camera in their face. And-

Dr Sarah Jones 45:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:41 ... the- the difference is that it was a camera across the street, it's a camera in the corner of the shop, it's a camera whatever, whatever.

Dr Sarah Jones 45:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:46 Um, but there's something very, very invasive, there's s- uh, that's k- creepy and visceral and just weird-

Dr Sarah Jones 45:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:55 ... about knowing that someone's watching in a way that knowing that someone's listening isn't-

Dr Sarah Jones 46:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:02 ... and even in the way that knowing that someone's watching statically isn't as well-

Dr Sarah Jones 46:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:06 ... I think. Um, uh, uh, y- yeah, there's some big hurdles for that sort of technology to overcome yet.

Dr Sarah Jones 46:12 Yeah. Yeah, and I think, I mean, we- we give our- ourselves away so freely, um, online constantly, but there is still that, that we're just a little bit uneasy with. Um, and I think that goes back to that problem of, you know, accessibility with VR, that it still is too close, it's intrusive, it's on our head, and it's not comfortable.

Chris Williamson 46:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 46:35 So you have all of that kind of playing out constantly. Um, but yeah, I mean, I- I do think the- the lighter the technology gets, the easier it gets to use. Um, I used to have, like, a clip-on VR lens that would be clipped onto my phone so I could watch VR content, um, through, um, like a- a clip-on double lens (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 46:59 Okay.

Dr Sarah Jones 46:59 ... which was really weird.

Chris Williamson 47:00 So you're putting your eyes, putting your phone up to your face like that?

Dr Sarah Jones 47:04 Yeah, so- so you'd have your phone there and the- these lenses would adapt onto it to make it into a VR viewer.

Chris Williamson 47:11 Oh, okay.

Dr Sarah Jones 47:11 So I've got my little VR viewer wherever I am.

Chris Williamson 47:14 Got you.

Dr Sarah Jones 47:14 Um, and obviously, with, you know, cardboard headsets and all those kinds of things-

Chris Williamson 47:19 Cardboard

Narrator 47:19 (laughs) Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 47:20 ... it's, yeah, I've got a whole collection.

Chris Williamson 47:21 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 47:21 I've got a wh- whole collection of headsets through history (laughs) , um, but it's really fun. Um, but- but yeah, it's- it's quite interesting to see the- those changes and as it gets lighter and as they get more comfortable and easier. Um, but still I'm just not sure if lots of people are gonna stick on a headset. Uh-

Chris Williamson 47:41 Mm-hmm. Well, it's not as if iPhone was the first touchscreen phone. It's the first one-

Dr Sarah Jones 47:46 No.

Chris Williamson 47:46 ... it's the first one that was able to deliver the technology sufficiently seamlessly for people to adopt it.

Dr Sarah Jones 47:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:52 And it's the same with this. What's the company-

Dr Sarah Jones 47:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:54 ... what's the company that is going to get first mover advan ... And I- uh, Apple, again, perfect example. They didn't have a phone until they did that.

Dr Sarah Jones 48:01 No.

Chris Williamson 48:01 There've been loads of people who've been in the phone space-

Dr Sarah Jones 48:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:03 ... who had dabbled with touchscreen phone, then BlackBerry had had one that was like touch and keypad and blah, blah, blah, but, you know, so it might- it very well might be and it could be Apple. Apple could come out with something-

Dr Sarah Jones 48:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:15 ... VR and just totally storm the market. Which- which is-

Dr Sarah Jones 48:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:19 ... uh, it's funny and it's good, it's good that capitalism allows the best product to rise to the top, but always makes me feel sad-

Dr Sarah Jones 48:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:25 ... for like Goo- poor Google Glass, like 2012-

Dr Sarah Jones 48:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:28 ... slaving away desperately trying to make it work-

Dr Sarah Jones 48:31 Yeah (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 48:31 ... and then there's Apple 15 years later coming in with, like, Apple Eyes or whatever they call it and they- they'll nail it.

Dr Sarah Jones 48:37 (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I- I do feel sorry for Google Glass, and I love the fact that they tried really hard and it could have been great and the thought, the intention was completely right.... um, I don't think Apple are gonna do much with, with VR. I think that they are really buying into the AR market. And I think whatever they bring out, um, you know, you've got the ARKit on Apple. There's lots of great things, like Reality Composer, where you can... It's all open source. You can bring in kind of digital objects and, um, download their app to kind of project those objects in your environment. So, you know, there's, there are great examples that, that some teachers are using, um, getting kids engaged with stuff and looking at kind of road maps and, um, kind of the solar system and holding planets in your hand-

Chris Williamson 49:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 49:27 ... and, and looking around them. Um, and that kind of technology is brilliant. And that's all being done through AR, through ARKit, um, and things like Reality Composer, that kids are using on their iPads and really, really engaging with. Um, so I think that's where Apple will be.

Chris Williamson 49:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 49:46 Um, and whether they come out with glasses or whatever it might be, um, there's always lots of rumors and lots of leaks, but, you know, we will see.

Chris Williamson 49:57 If it was-

Dr Sarah Jones 49:58 Um...

Chris Williamson 49:58 ... if it was Apple, they'd be able to trademark the aye-aye. The aye-aye.

Dr Sarah Jones 50:04 (laughs) I know.

Chris Williamson 50:04 And I'm from Newcastle, so I'm allowed to say that. Uh, the Y-

Dr Sarah Jones 50:07 Yeah, I'm- I'm-

Chris Williamson 50:08 That would be the Y-aye, wouldn't it?

Dr Sarah Jones 50:08 ... I'm not sure I... Yeah, I'm, I'm not sure I could, like, aye-aye.

Chris Williamson 50:12 Aye-aye. The aye-aye.

Dr Sarah Jones 50:13 Um, that might be a bit wrong. (laughs) Aye-aye.

Chris Williamson 50:16 Aye-aye.

Dr Sarah Jones 50:16 Um, yeah. I mean, it's quite funny, though, when they came out with the watch, and it was very much it's not called the iWatch, it's the Watch. Um-

Chris Williamson 50:24 (laughs)

Dr Sarah Jones 50:24 ... and yeah, so maybe it will just be eye.

Chris Williamson 50:27 All right, Tim Cook-

Dr Sarah Jones 50:28 Um...

Chris Williamson 50:28 ... stop being really serious. Everything else was aye. Uh-

Dr Sarah Jones 50:30 Yeah, yeah, exactly (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 50:32 So, one of the things that I heard, um, Sam Harris talk about a while ago, and I'm gonna butcher it, but you'll be, you'll know what I'm talking about. Sam's concern was as technology allows us to become more immersive, there'd been some very, um, uh, there'd been some studies done which showed AR and VR's ability to change people's political views, their, uh, views towards I think climate change or tree-felling? There was something as well. Do you know what I'm talking about or am I just-

Dr Sarah Jones 51:05 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:05 ... am I blowing it all in your mind?

Dr Sarah Jones 51:06 No, no, no.

Chris Williamson 51:06 Okay. Can you, can you tell the listeners what, what I'm on about? 'Cause...

Dr Sarah Jones 51:10 Yeah. I mean, there, there've been loads a- of, of conversations and discussions and lots of things around this. So, we basically say that VR, as an immersive media, has the capacity, the potential, to change perceptions, to change understandings. Uh, and that's, that's why we like it. So, you know, if you want to experience, you get Clouds over Sidra, an incredible piece done by Chris Milk a few years ago. One of the big, kind of VR 360 kind of experiences, following the journey of a girl in a refugee camp in, um, Jordan. So, that's... was designed to drive empathy. It was meant to, um, invoke that sense of, um, "We need to take action." You know, it was designed to be shown to decision-makers at the UN to get them to understand more and change their minds and get them to do more. So, the technology is being used for all of that. It's been labeled as this empathy machine, uh, which I think is a load of nonsense. Um, but that's what it's been labeled as. Um, if you take that argument that it can change minds, you can put the technology in other people's hands and get them to change minds in different ways. If the technology has that power to change what you're thinking about something, where does it go with subliminal messaging? Where does it go with, um, arguing for something else? Um, there's been really, really interesting studies around gender-swapping in VR, getting people to experience different genders, um, and then seeing how that changes, um, attitudes and behavior in the workplace. You know, feel what it's like for a woman to be the only woman in a boardroom full of men. Those kinds of scenarios. Um, some of them are really powerful. S- some of them have been shown to have impact. Um, there was one around, um, at the Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab, where they did something around homelessness. And they had two groups, and one group just received information on flat screens and brochures and that kind of stuff, and the other one experienced it. The other group was experiencing homelessness in, um, immersive experiences and connecting with people. And then they repeated it, and then they, they looked at the data over who was, who was still more empathetic. Who, who was actually, who had changed their behavior? And all of the studies showed that it was the group that were exposed to it in an immersive way.

Chris Williamson 54:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 54:00 Because they had that close relationship. So, so yeah, you are looking at technology that can potentially change people's minds if that is for the wrong way. How is that monitored? How is that regulated? Um, we're talking pretty much in quite a unregulated industry.

Chris Williamson 54:24 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 54:25 Um, so yeah, I think that the concept of brain hacking, um, and changing the mind to think, changing the brain and the way that you're thinking, your beliefs and your motivations, is really interesting but a little bit freaky.

Chris Williamson 54:42 Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, the only thing that I... The analogy that I can kind of draw here is that...With social media, it's ... We had no idea that it was going to come. Social media was a change. The fact that you have a screen in your pocket which is able to layer all sorts of different mental models and cognitive biases on top of itself, like an echo chamber and confirmation bias and, you know, all- all the different things that you have when you follow people on Twitter and then the algorithm starts to redeliver you more content which, you know, either outrage or agreement in the two things, et cetera, et cetera. All that stuff, right? So you- you ... We- we didn't know what was gonna go on with that. That happened, and now I think everyone has realized how we probably fucked up a bit with social media. We've probably ungoverned, or there's not enough governance around, are these things a platform or a pipeline? Are they a publisher? Um, should we be monitoring the content? Should they be allowed to de-platform people if- if they're not breaking the law, all this sort of stuff. And I think a lot of, uh, the general public and sort of techy people are looking forward now with a little bit more mindfulness about what, what's going on.

Dr Sarah Jones 55:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:54 Are we, are we about to unleash the next thing? And then the analogy Sam Harris uses, it's really, really interesting, is he, he talks about, um, how he sees a ceiling. There's a ceiling on how much behavior change you can get from a, a two-dimensional phone that's in your hand.

Dr Sarah Jones 56:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:11 And that that ceiling gets raised, and we don't know by how much. How much does it get raised by AR, how much does it get raised by VR, how much does it get raised by, I guess, this always-on VR holographic sort of stuff-

Dr Sarah Jones 56:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:22 ... which is somewhere between AR, VR and- and-

Dr Sarah Jones 56:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:24 ... and something else. Um, yeah, I ... A- again, you know, before the Manhattan Project, like you didn't need to have any legislation for nuclear bombs 'cause there was no nuclear bombs.

Dr Sarah Jones 56:36 No.

Chris Williamson 56:37 And inevitably with technology, the legislation always lags behind the actual-

Dr Sarah Jones 56:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:43 ... technology coming out. You can't-

Dr Sarah Jones 56:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:45 And on top of that, once the genie's out the bottle, it's not going back in the cage.

Dr Sarah Jones 56:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:49 So ...

Dr Sarah Jones 56:49 Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I-

Chris Williamson 56:52 It's a space I'm glad I'm not having to legislate or, or govern in.

Dr Sarah Jones 56:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:55 It sounds like it, it would be a bit messy.

Dr Sarah Jones 56:57 Yeah, I mean, there- there was the, um, the government did a, uh, select committee looking at immersive technologies and addiction, um, which start in January, so I gave evidence to-

Chris Williamson 57:08 Right.

Dr Sarah Jones 57:08 ... it in January, which was all a little bit surreal. Um-

Chris Williamson 57:10 Was that the House of Commons?

Dr Sarah Jones 57:12 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:13 Wow, nice.

Dr Sarah Jones 57:13 It was the, um, DCMS. Um, and the report was published only a few weeks ago. Yes. O- September the 12th, I think. Um, so it's all online. And, and that's really interesting actually. There's really interesting findings in there. And it's gaming, and addiction, um, but also around immersive as well. And one thing that I spoke a lot about was, um, you know, the impact and everything that we've learned from cyberbullying and social networks that need to be stopped before it starts, and it's already starting, in VR social spaces. Um, and there was a really interesting study done last year, um, with loads of people that were using social VR spaces, and the amount of people, it was like 60% of people, um, felt that they'd been harassed in social spaces in VR. Um, particularly women, but quite a high number of men as well. Um, and I've always found social VR really creepy. Like-

Chris Williamson 58:11 Mm.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:11 ... I don't like it.

Chris Williamson 58:12 No.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:13 Um, it always reminds me of that kind of early internet chat room, where you just didn't-

Chris Williamson 58:19 MSN or ... Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:20 Yeah, you didn't quite know who was there and it was all a little bit weird. Um, and that's what it's like in social VR when these weird kind of body-less, um, or armless or legless kind of avatars come creeping up to you and be like-

Chris Williamson 58:35 On to-

Dr Sarah Jones 58:35 ... "Hey, Sarah, how are you?"

Chris Williamson 58:36 On top of that as well-

Dr Sarah Jones 58:38 And it's just weird.

Chris Williamson 58:38 ... like think about the people who have adopted that technology at this stage of its life.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:44 Like that is-

Dr Sarah Jones 58:44 Oy, 'cause I'm one of them (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:45 Yeah, I know, I know, I know (laughs) . It's true bollocks. Way to make your guest feel, feel nice and comfortable, Chris.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:52 Yeah, thanks for that.

Chris Williamson 58:52 Uh, yeah, I know.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:53 Yeah, I'm one of them (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 58:53 But you understand my point. You understand my point.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:55 Ab- absolutely.

Chris Williamson 58:56 It is selecting for something, and we don't know what it's selecting for.

Dr Sarah Jones 58:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:59 But it's definitely selecting for s- the first PhD in immersive storytelling. But we know there's only one of you-

Dr Sarah Jones 59:05 Absolutely (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 59:05 ... so what are the rest of them, right? Um, and you- you- you know, there's gonna be some people in there who are non-typical by virtue of the fact that there's not many of them.

Dr Sarah Jones 59:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:14 Um ...

Dr Sarah Jones 59:14 Yeah, absolutely. And there are some great things being done in social VR spaces, and there's quite a lot now with kind of women-only rooms. Um, but you can also, you know, go to campfires, you can going on like musical nights, you can do karaoke on a Friday night. It's very much the oasis, um (laughs) , in um, Ready Player One.

Chris Williamson 59:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 59:33 It's very much that kind of world.

Chris Williamson 59:35 Yeah.

Dr Sarah Jones 59:35 You've got lots of different places to explore. Um, but what the tech companies have done, which is really good, if you are in a social space and people are coming towards you and it's freaking you out, you can put a safety bubble around you so you, you create this kind of, "This is my personal space. You get out of my bubble," kind of restriction.

Chris Williamson 59:56 So I ... I run nightclubs. That's my job, I've run nightclubs for 13 years. And if I can get someone to create a real life version-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:04 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:04 ... of that, my work life will-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:07 You'd be so good.

Chris Williamson 1:00:07 ... be 10Xed in terms of its comfort. "Get out of my personal space."

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:11 "I need around about three feet in all directions please. Thank you."

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:14 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:00:16 When you're moving through a club so easily ...

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:16 But I thought that was really interesting (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 1:00:18 Yeah, it is. It is, but it again, it shows the fact that we have, uh, this sort of very visceral response to, to people and we can't, we can't distin- Because there's nothing to be afraid of, like it's just another chatroom. You don't know if-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:33 ... my bits are close to your, like, uh, uh, bits in, uh, uh, the way that we're transferring information now. But i- because it's not represented visually in a way that our senses can tell-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:45 ... we're not that bothered. So yeah, it's uh ...

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:49 Yeah. It comes down to that question of ...... how real is the virtual, really?

Chris Williamson 1:00:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 1:00:55 And do we perceive it to be real or not? Um, and if what we're trying to get to is a place where we cannot decipher what's real and what's not, then that can be, you know, it can be just as bad. You know, for, for somebody to, you know, harass you, um, virtually, whether it's within a virtual reality environment or whether it's on a cyberbullying thing, it's still harassment.

Chris Williamson 1:01:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr Sarah Jones 1:01:28 Um, so it, it's quite difficult to, to kind of comprehend and it, it's difficult for people to accept that it's just as bad, but it is.

Chris Williamson 1:01:39 Well, anyone who knows about the, the rubber hand experiment-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:01:42 Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:01:44 ... know, know that you can literally trick your brain by using visual cues into-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:01:48 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:01:48 ... feeling something physically.

Dr Sarah Jones 1:01:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:51 And forget how it feels emotionally. Um, uh, yeah, uh, it really is a bit minefield, isn't it?

Dr Sarah Jones 1:01:58 Yeah. A little bit.

Chris Williamson 1:01:59 Mm-hmm. And we can still-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:02:00 You can always press your bubble. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:02 Press your bubble, get my bubble out there.

Dr Sarah Jones 1:02:03 Give me space. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:04 Hon- honestly, I want, I want it for the real world. So, uh, Dr. Jones, today's been amazing. Thank you so much.

Dr Sarah Jones 1:02:09 Thank you very much for having me.

Chris Williamson 1:02:10 If the, uh, the listeners want to find out some more things, are there any cool blogs or websites or where would you direct them, and where can they, where can they find you as well?

Dr Sarah Jones 1:02:19 Yeah. So I- I'm on Twitter, um, live on Twitter, VirtualSarahJ, um, always online, um, or in a virtual world somewhere. Um, but there are loads of really like all of the tech platforms, UploadVR, um, all of those kinds of places are great for kind of immersive news. Um, and just try and check out... So I'd, I'd always say try and check out, we've just had Raindance the last weekend, um, which has been full of really interesting, um, VR experiences. Um, and if anyone is in Bristol, um, there's the first VR cinema based in Bristol run by Kathryn Allen, um, called Limine, Limini, (laughs) I can't say it. That word, find it, Bristol's VR cinema. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:03:08 Got you.

Dr Sarah Jones 1:03:08 Um, I'll send it to you. Um, which is, is great and they have loads of great experiences on, so it's a really easy way to get people in. Um, so really good stuff there too.

Chris Williamson 1:03:18 Awesome. Dr. Jones, thank you so much for your time. Uh-

Dr Sarah Jones 1:03:21 Thanks to you.

Chris Williamson 1:03:21 Links to everything we've spoken about will be in the show notes below. VirtualSarahJ on Twitter, uh, if you have any questions, feel free to go and, uh, drop her a message. For now, thank you very much.