The Future Of Virtual Reality | Dr Sarah Jones | Modern Wisdom Podcast 110

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) I am joined…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) I am joined by Dr. Sarah Jones, and before the podcast we've been nerding out on all of the different gadgets and stuff that we've got floating around our house, so that is going to be the continuation of today's episode. Sarah, welcome to the show.

   2. SJDr Sarah Jones0:19

      Thank you very much for having me.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:21

      It's a pleasure to have you on. You have the world's first PhD in immersive storytelling.

   4. SJDr Sarah Jones0:29

      Correct.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:30

      What's that? What, what-

   6. SJDr Sarah Jones0:32

      (laughs) Uh, uh-

   7. CWChris Williamson0:32

      ... what does that mean?

   8. SJDr Sarah Jones0:33

      ... I'm, I'm sure I won't be the, the, the... I won't be the only one for very long. I'm sure there'll be lots more coming up right behind me, um, with regard to immersive storytelling, and I usually say it's immersive story living, um, as a way to kind of define it a little bit more. But basically, what I do is grab any tech that I can and break it to find a new way of having a story. Um, so story living is all around that kind of immersive experience, um, where it's completely rooted in the experience, in the experiential, so therefore you can't really have a told story. It's not really a directed narrative, um, so you gotta break it apart, and then you live it in whatever way you want, therefore it's story living. Um, so yeah, I, I did my PhD, I got my PhD in story living, um, the first one, um, but yeah, it's pretty good.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:37

      That's fun. So, what are some of the examples of, of the, the kind of technologies that you work with?

   10. SJDr Sarah Jones1:43

       Um, I've always experimented with, with whatever I can get my hands on, really. So my background was in television journalism, so I was a reporter for, like, 10 years, um, traveled all the way around the world telling stories, and I always wanted to just get closer to those stories. Um, I wanted to find a way of really taking the audience and putting them in the heart of it. So I was right at the start of the mobile phone movement, um, of mobile phone filmmaking, um, and shooting and editing everything on your phones, um, and I found that that could get you closer, um, but it still wasn't close enough 'cause whenever you're watching anything, there's this barrier, and that barrier's the screen, and it's always in the way. Um, and then when I did my first kind of VR experience, I was like, "Ha ha, this is it. Now I can take you, the audience, and I can plonk you in the center of the story, and you're there, and you experience it then yourself." Um, so from all kinds of things, from normal film to, um, AR to VR to 360 film, which is obviously the easiest way to experiment, um, but at the moment, I'm, I'm really fascinated with holograms and what you can do with those. Um, and I haven't made anything decent.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:01

       (laughs)

   12. SJDr Sarah Jones3:02

       Um, but I will. Um, so we... it's just a case of experimenting and breaking and trying to find how these technologies suit different mediums.

   13. CWChris Williamson3:12

       That's interesting. So, uh, is your... are you coming at this from a tech coding side, or are you coming at this from more of a grand perspective, what can it do, um, what's its sort of capabilities side?

   14. SJDr Sarah Jones3:27

       I think the latter-

   15. CWChris Williamson3:29

       Yeah.

   16. SJDr Sarah Jones3:29

       ... um, and certainly more of that kind of artistic side.

   17. CWChris Williamson3:33

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SJDr Sarah Jones3:35

       Um, I tried to learn how to code probably about five, six years ago. I thought, "Okay, I really need to do this. You know, clearly I'm missing that skill." So I started learning, and then I thought, "You know what? There's people that are brilliant at this. I don't need to kill myself trying to do it. I-"

   19. CWChris Williamson3:54

       Yeah.

   20. SJDr Sarah Jones3:54

       "... just need to find those people-"

   21. CWChris Williamson3:56

       Especially if it's not in your-

   22. SJDr Sarah Jones3:56

       "... and work with them."

   23. CWChris Williamson3:57

       ... s- s- especially if it's not in your wheelhouse. Like, there's-

   24. SJDr Sarah Jones3:59

       No.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:00

       ... s- s- some guys-

   26. SJDr Sarah Jones4:01

       E- e- exactly.

   27. CWChris Williamson4:01

       ... yeah, some guys who f- who eat that stuff for breakfast, but would find-

   28. SJDr Sarah Jones4:05

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:05

       ... would find the storytelling that you do, like, just crawling through glass, so you might as well.

   30. SJDr Sarah Jones4:11

       Absolutely.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      some of the videos I was watching looked lower quality.

   2. SJDr Sarah Jones15:03

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:03

      But apparently that was more to do with the, the way that it needs to communicate it to your eyes. Is that right?

   4. SJDr Sarah Jones15:08

      Yeah. It, it can be. So, um, different, um, headsets, and it'll all be whether you downloaded them or whether you're streaming them and however you're doing it. Um, I always, um, get questions around, you know, "I, I want to make something in 360." "I want a 360 camera." "Which one shall I buy?" Um, and there, there's one camera that I use all the time, um, as a basic entry level kind of prosumer camera. Um, which is the Insta360 ONE X. Um, Insta360 make a great range of cameras, um, really, really great company. Um, and theirs, it now says, the ONE X, is 5.7K. So you think, "Brilliant, this is really good. Like this is gonna be great in a headset."

   5. CWChris Williamson15:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SJDr Sarah Jones15:53

      But those 5.7K pixels are being, you know, if you're watching something flat, it's in front of you in that resolution. We now have to put all of those resolution, th- those pixels all the way around us. So it's the 360-degree image that's made up of all of those pixels.

   7. CWChris Williamson16:13

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SJDr Sarah Jones16:14

      So it's never gonna be as good as watching uh, a ultra HD television, flat, massive screen, all that kind of thing.

   9. CWChris Williamson16:22

      Yeah.

   10. SJDr Sarah Jones16:22

       It's just not. Um, but it is getting better. Um-

   11. CWChris Williamson16:27

       I was gonna say, where's the tech at now?

   12. SJDr Sarah Jones16:28

       I mean-

   13. CWChris Williamson16:28

       Where, what's it progressing to? 'Cause I think, I think the stats when I had a Go were that if you downloaded something, weren't streaming it, uh, had it on optimal resolution, all this sort of stuff, it could get to about 720p. Is that right?

   14. SJDr Sarah Jones16:42

       Um, no, I think you can go up to 1080 on, on, on the Quest. And it isn't bad.

   15. CWChris Williamson16:50

       Not bad.

   16. SJDr Sarah Jones16:50

       Like it's, it's good.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:52

       We just got so spoiled with 4K and Samsung-

   18. SJDr Sarah Jones16:55

       I know.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:56

       ... Super AMOLED, Super Dark Sharp Display.

   20. SJDr Sarah Jones16:58

       A- absolutely.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:59

       And all that stuff.

   22. SJDr Sarah Jones16:59

       Yeah. I mean, I would say that after, after a couple of minutes in it, you get used to it.

   23. CWChris Williamson17:06

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SJDr Sarah Jones17:07

       Your eyes adjust to it. Um, and then it all becomes normal. Um, so I, I lived in VR for 48 hours a couple of years ago.

   25. CWChris Williamson17:16

       No way. (laughs)

   26. SJDr Sarah Jones17:16

       Um, one, one of those, you know, crazy things you decide on a day out you're gonna do.

   27. CWChris Williamson17:22

       How would you go to the bathrooms?

   28. SJDr Sarah Jones17:24

       Um, I had a five-minute comfort break every hour.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:26

       Okay, cool.

   30. SJDr Sarah Jones17:28

       Yeah.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yeah. …

   1. SJDr Sarah Jones30:00

      Yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:00

      ... down just trying to start up on charge. That was weird.

   3. SJDr Sarah Jones30:02

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:03

      Um-

   5. SJDr Sarah Jones30:03

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson30:03

      ... again, I s- I saw the note anyway, so, um.

   7. SJDr Sarah Jones30:06

      (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson30:06

      But, uh, um, yeah, and looking at these file sizes, we need better storage, we need to be able to make sure that that's-

   9. SJDr Sarah Jones30:14

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson30:14

       ... that, that, that's able to happen and, and stuff like that. So yeah, it's weird how all of these, you were talking earlier on about how everyone needs to play a role.

   11. SJDr Sarah Jones30:22

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson30:22

       Uh, and that's-

   13. SJDr Sarah Jones30:23

       And, uh, I mean now with like 5G and all that kind of stuff, that's gonna make things really, like that will help, that, that will make things better. Um, and it is getting easier. Um, I mean, I, I remember when, uh-... when I first started filming things, um, having to try and stitch it all together manually. So, so I would film on rig- Oh, sorry, I've just dropped you there.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:47

       Yeah.

   15. SJDr Sarah Jones30:47

       Um, I, I'd film on, um, rigs of loads of GoPros, and then I would have to put it through, um, software to stitch each of those images together to create one spherical image.

   16. CWChris Williamson31:00

       Oh, my God.

   17. SJDr Sarah Jones31:02

       Um, and now, it's mostly done the- there's lots of programs you can put things through, and it does it all for you. Um, I still try and manually stitch, 'cause it took me so long to learn how to do it flawlessly. Um, but the, the algorithms are great, you know? It just happens. Um, but those are those kinds of things that through a group working within this space, it's getting easier. Um, I did a, I worked with Google on, um, a couple of different experiences, and they gave me one of their, their Google, um, Odyssey cameras. This Jump, I was one of their Jump creators. And it was basically a 16 GoPro rig.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:44

       Okay.

   19. SJDr Sarah Jones31:44

       It was huge.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:45

       All right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   21. SJDr Sarah Jones31:45

       It was massive. Um, the, the power bank that it ran off was like this massive kind of-

   22. CWChris Williamson31:52

       You got this big backpack on, yeah.

   23. SJDr Sarah Jones31:54

       ... like huge thing. Um, yeah, well, it, it, you couldn't even carry it. I couldn't carry it. Um, you know, it was not mobile filmmaking whatsoever. Um, but, but it was great. Um, and with all of that, you, they, they developed a software that you just plugged it all in, and it went up to the cloud, and they stitched it and then they told you when it was ready. Um, the file sizes meant that it took bet- anywhere between five and seven days to stitch- (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson32:22

       Oh, my God.

   25. SJDr Sarah Jones32:22

       ... these cameras together.

   26. CWChris Williamson32:24

       Wow.

   27. SJDr Sarah Jones32:25

       And you're just like, "This is how big it was."

   28. CWChris Williamson32:27

       Yeah.

   29. SJDr Sarah Jones32:27

       I've had things like rendering for about 16 hours at a time.

   30. CWChris Williamson32:32

       Oh, my God, yeah.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      That's how highly we discriminate, uh-

   2. SJDr Sarah Jones45:03

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:03

      ... our- our sight over other of the senses.

   4. SJDr Sarah Jones45:05

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:06

      Um, and there was a... Someone will be able to tell me what this is. There was a YouTube video that I watched not long ago where it was trying to show people how, um, uncomfortable they felt when they realized they were, uh, under surveillance. And this person went in and sat down straight in front of a couple at a restaurant and just had the camera like that and just didn't say anything. And people started freaking out, started just-

   6. SJDr Sarah Jones45:34

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:34

      ... losing their shit. Or he'd sit down next to someone who was reading the paper at a park bench and just put the camera in their face. And-

   8. SJDr Sarah Jones45:40

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:41

      ... the- the difference is that it was a camera across the street, it's a camera in the corner of the shop, it's a camera whatever, whatever.

   10. SJDr Sarah Jones45:46

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:46

       Um, but there's something very, very invasive, there's s- uh, that's k- creepy and visceral and just weird-

   12. SJDr Sarah Jones45:55

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson45:55

       ... about knowing that someone's watching in a way that knowing that someone's listening isn't-

   14. SJDr Sarah Jones46:02

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson46:02

       ... and even in the way that knowing that someone's watching statically isn't as well-

   16. SJDr Sarah Jones46:06

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:06

       ... I think. Um, uh, uh, y- yeah, there's some big hurdles for that sort of technology to overcome yet.

   18. SJDr Sarah Jones46:12

       Yeah. Yeah, and I think, I mean, we- we give our- ourselves away so freely, um, online constantly, but there is still that, that we're just a little bit uneasy with. Um, and I think that goes back to that problem of, you know, accessibility with VR, that it still is too close, it's intrusive, it's on our head, and it's not comfortable.

   19. CWChris Williamson46:35

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SJDr Sarah Jones46:35

       So you have all of that kind of playing out constantly. Um, but yeah, I mean, I- I do think the- the lighter the technology gets, the easier it gets to use. Um, I used to have, like, a clip-on VR lens that would be clipped onto my phone so I could watch VR content, um, through, um, like a- a clip-on double lens (laughs) -

   21. CWChris Williamson46:59

       Okay.

   22. SJDr Sarah Jones46:59

       ... which was really weird.

   23. CWChris Williamson47:00

       So you're putting your eyes, putting your phone up to your face like that?

   24. SJDr Sarah Jones47:04

       Yeah, so- so you'd have your phone there and the- these lenses would adapt onto it to make it into a VR viewer.

   25. CWChris Williamson47:11

       Oh, okay.

   26. SJDr Sarah Jones47:11

       So I've got my little VR viewer wherever I am.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:14

       Got you.

   28. SJDr Sarah Jones47:14

       Um, and obviously, with, you know, cardboard headsets and all those kinds of things-

   29. CWChris Williamson47:19

       Cardboard

   30. NANarrator47:19

       (laughs) Yeah.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:03:52

   (laughs) …

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      years. And if I can get someone to create a real life version-

   2. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:04

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:04

      ... of that, my work life will-

   4. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:07

      You'd be so good.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:07

      ... be 10Xed in terms of its comfort. "Get out of my personal space."

   6. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:11

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:11

      "I need around about three feet in all directions please. Thank you."

   8. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:14

      Absolutely. Absolutely.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:16

      When you're moving through a club so easily ...

   10. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:16

       But I thought that was really interesting (laughs) .

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:18

       Yeah, it is. It is, but it again, it shows the fact that we have, uh, this sort of very visceral response to, to people and we can't, we can't distin- Because there's nothing to be afraid of, like it's just another chatroom. You don't know if-

   12. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:33

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:00:33

       ... my bits are close to your, like, uh, uh, bits in, uh, uh, the way that we're transferring information now. But i- because it's not represented visually in a way that our senses can tell-

   14. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:44

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:45

       ... we're not that bothered. So yeah, it's uh ...

   16. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:49

       Yeah. It comes down to that question of ...... how real is the virtual, really?

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SJDr Sarah Jones1:00:55

       And do we perceive it to be real or not? Um, and if what we're trying to get to is a place where we cannot decipher what's real and what's not, then that can be, you know, it can be just as bad. You know, for, for somebody to, you know, harass you, um, virtually, whether it's within a virtual reality environment or whether it's on a cyberbullying thing, it's still harassment.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:01:27

       Mm-hmm.

   20. SJDr Sarah Jones1:01:28

       Um, so it, it's quite difficult to, to kind of comprehend and it, it's difficult for people to accept that it's just as bad, but it is.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:01:39

       Well, anyone who knows about the, the rubber hand experiment-

   22. SJDr Sarah Jones1:01:42

       Yeah. Exactly.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

       ... know, know that you can literally trick your brain by using visual cues into-

   24. SJDr Sarah Jones1:01:48

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:01:48

       ... feeling something physically.

   26. SJDr Sarah Jones1:01:51

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:01:51

       And forget how it feels emotionally. Um, uh, yeah, uh, it really is a bit minefield, isn't it?

   28. SJDr Sarah Jones1:01:58

       Yeah. A little bit.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:01:59

       Mm-hmm. And we can still-

   30. SJDr Sarah Jones1:02:00

       You can always press your bubble. (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:03:49