The Good Ol’ Days Were Way Worse - Fin Taylor & Horatio Gould

Chris Williamson 0:00 You are historians now.

Fin Taylor 0:02 Yes, very much so.

Chris Williamson 0:02 Congratulations.

Horatio Gould 0:03 Big pivot.

Chris Williamson 0:04 Uh-huh. Yeah, hard pivot.

Horatio Gould 0:05 Yeah, yeah. Into academia.

Fin Taylor 0:06 I mean, this is what the manosphere's come to.

Horatio Gould 0:09 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 0:09 If you're speaking to historians, you'll, you'll get us on to talk. It doesn't matter, because we can-

Horatio Gould 0:13 Well, it's the lot-

Fin Taylor 0:13 We can say what we want-

Horatio Gould 0:14 It's the logical end point of-

Fin Taylor 0:14 ... and there'll be people who'll be like, "What? Really?"

Horatio Gould 0:16 ... podcasts that need academic guests.

Fin Taylor 0:18 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 0:18 Is they use all of them.

Chris Williamson 0:19 This is how low the barrel is that I'm scraping.

Horatio Gould 0:21 This is how your business model works. Is once you've had-

Fin Taylor 0:23 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 0:23 ... whatever, what's his name? Graham?

Fin Taylor 0:25 Graham Hancock. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 0:26 Because you've had him on four times.

Fin Taylor 0:27 Graham Hand Job. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 0:28 (laughs) You have to get, you have to get a new guy on.

Fin Taylor 0:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:29 The legitimacy has declined so much-

Horatio Gould 0:31 Who will deny even more genocide. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:31 ... that it's got to you guys. Yeah, I agree.

Fin Taylor 0:34 Yeah, it's not clicky enough.

Chris Williamson 0:35 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 0:35 Graham Hancock is just not, it's not-

Horatio Gould 0:37 Yeah, people are used to it. They need to get these guys on.

Fin Taylor 0:38 Yeah, exactly. (laughs) They need someone who's really pushing the boundaries. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:41 Have you been any more capable of predicting the future now with all of your illustrious studying of the past? Has it given you any insights about what's going on in the modern world?

Horatio Gould 0:49 It's made me calmer about it.

Fin Taylor 0:51 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 0:51 It's just always fucked.

Fin Taylor 0:52 That's true. That's a gen-

Horatio Gould 0:54 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 0:54 Uh, uh, history for me has always been quite, like, a soothing thing.

Horatio Gould 0:57 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 0:57 It's been a lot worse.

Chris Williamson 0:58 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 0:58 And it, it's gonna carry on being like this, and, uh-

Horatio Gould 1:01 It's like ASMR.

Fin Taylor 1:02 Because people keep saying, like, you know, "Back in the day." Back in... What do you mean back in the day?

Horatio Gould 1:05 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 1:06 It was awful. It was always awful for s-

Horatio Gould 1:08 It's been awful for s- This is, this is the best it's ever been.

Fin Taylor 1:09 The '90s were slightly better.

Horatio Gould 1:11 A bit... Yeah. There was four years.

Fin Taylor 1:12 It's b- Human's gone like this, it's gone like this-

Horatio Gould 1:14 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 1:14 ... and now it's like that.

Horatio Gould 1:15 No, I reckon it went like that, and then it was, like, in between Diana and 9/11, and then it's just been like that.

Fin Taylor 1:20 Yeah, exactly. It's been going down, but people is... It is still, like... Step back. It's, it's unreal. People-

Horatio Gould 1:26 Coffee, coffee's good.

Fin Taylor 1:27 I mean, we've got New Tonic now.

Horatio Gould 1:28 All that stuff. That stuff.

Chris Williamson 1:29 Agreed. Thank you f-

Fin Taylor 1:29 You've got... Look at... You don't have this in the Middle Ages. That is true.

Horatio Gould 1:32 People didn't even have that 10 years ago.

Fin Taylor 1:33 Ugh.

Chris Williamson 1:34 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 1:37 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 1:37 We're living in the New Tonic age.

Horatio Gould 1:39 This is, this is the New Tonic age.

Fin Taylor 1:40 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 1:40 De place this, de place this for anyone listening. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:43 Tha- that is, tha- that is true. That is very true indeed. No, it's a, an interesting one. I think the, the fact that both America and maybe the UK as well had such a little golden era, '80s, '90s-ish-

Fin Taylor 1:53 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:53 ... where everybody felt, like, living standards, s- stuff's getting better.

Fin Taylor 1:58 Mm.

Horatio Gould 1:58 End of history.

Fin Taylor 1:59 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:00 And, but just that you have this felt pullback from then until now.

Fin Taylor 2:04 Mm.

Chris Williamson 2:05 But you had probably steady incline... Careful doing that.

Fin Taylor 2:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 2:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:08 Uh, you had s-

Fin Taylor 2:09 You're into...

Horatio Gould 2:10 That's our... Yeah, we're on the wrong set for that. (laughs)

Fin Taylor 2:12 (laughs) You're on a safe space, brother.

Chris Williamson 2:12 Uh, uh, steady incline kind of up until then.

Fin Taylor 2:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:14 So when you compare, when you compare us between that, I think everyone looks at the golden era that parents had, and thinks, "Oh, well, wouldn't it have been lovely to have grown up in the '80s and the '90s?"

Fin Taylor 2:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 2:22 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 2:22 Yeah, and it gets... Before social media and stuff, and I guess there, there's just a little sweet spot. But I guess if you just do history a lot, you just look at it much broader. And so you just view it... You take a much bigger step back and it's just like, "Yeah." You know?

Horatio Gould 2:34 Yeah, I mean, we're p- p... Like, we're more likely to die naturally now-

Fin Taylor 2:37 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 2:37 ... than ever before.

Fin Taylor 2:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:38 What's, what do you mean?

Horatio Gould 2:39 Well, as in, like, not die... I mean, I mean, obviously there are people in your orbit who don't want to die. And that's the new th- 'cause that's the new frontier to-

Fin Taylor 2:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:46 That is true.

Horatio Gould 2:46 ... conquer.

Fin Taylor 2:47 People won't die. That's the-

Horatio Gould 2:48 People won't die.

Fin Taylor 2:48 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 2:49 Yeah. Good on them.

Chris Williamson 2:50 They refuse to.

Fin Taylor 2:50 They won't get off the fucking...

Horatio Gould 2:51 I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to it, frankly.

Fin Taylor 2:54 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 2:54 I would like to die at some point.

Fin Taylor 2:55 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 2:56 It's not before my time.

Chris Williamson 2:57 No.

Horatio Gould 2:57 But I do think there's a time to die.

Chris Williamson 2:58 Uh-huh.

Fin Taylor 2:58 Yeah. There's a time and a place-

Horatio Gould 2:59 A time and...

Fin Taylor 2:59 ... for di- (laughs)

Horatio Gould 3:00 There's a time and a place.

Chris Williamson 3:01 It's-

Horatio Gould 3:01 Um, but it's imp- but, uh, norm- the amount, the way you would die up until about 100 years ago was probably very bad compared to now.

Fin Taylor 3:09 We just did a Japan series, and they didn't stop-

Horatio Gould 3:11 Made the amount of suicides crazy.

Fin Taylor 3:12 They loved committing suicide. Seppuku.

Horatio Gould 3:14 Yeah. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 3:14 You'd do ritually... And it's p- because his life... Life's so rubbish, you just want to do something big and then kill yourself. It is, like, a brilliant life.

Horatio Gould 3:20 The best thing about your life would be the w- the committing of suicide.

Fin Taylor 3:23 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 3:23 Yeah. In, in 16th century Japan.

Fin Taylor 3:24 Um, yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:25 What caused them to do that? There had to be an incident that made-

Fin Taylor 3:29 'Cause they didn't have modern wisdom to listen to, to help with their mental health. I mean, that's-

Chris Williamson 3:32 That's true. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 3:33 There was a, there was a severe lack of mental health podcasts.

Chris Williamson 3:34 To get them up at 4:30 AM.

Fin Taylor 3:35 So-

Horatio Gould 3:36 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 3:36 So young, young Japanese men were committing seppuku en masse. They-

Horatio Gould 3:40 And it would be the slightest faux pas.

Fin Taylor 3:42 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 3:42 You'd fart at the dinner table.

Fin Taylor 3:44 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 3:44 "I can't live with this."

Chris Williamson 3:45 But was it, was it-

Fin Taylor 3:45 Guts everywhere.

Horatio Gould 3:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:46 Was it some kind of, like, weird honor culture?

Fin Taylor 3:48 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 3:48 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 3:49 Well, it's still like that. But yeah, they absolutely fucking loved it. 'Cause I thought, uh, it was just, like, a racist trope. But when we went and studied it for the lo- these episodes, you can't beli- Everyone ends with seppuku.

Horatio Gould 4:01 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 4:01 And if they don't, I'm immediately thinking, like, "Well, you're a bit... That's a bit dishonorable."

Horatio Gould 4:04 Yeah, their death is treated as suspicious if it's not suicide.

Fin Taylor 4:06 Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 4:07 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 4:08 It's... It, there's... And I... Yeah.

Horatio Gould 4:09 Suspicious circumstances.

Fin Taylor 4:10 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 4:10 He didn't seem to do it himself. Wasn't happy there.

Fin Taylor 4:12 Apparent date.

Chris Williamson 4:13 (laughs) What, um, what made Japan such an odd country? 'Cause even now, it's about as close to kind of an alien planet as you can get to, I suppose. With-

Fin Taylor 4:24 Well, it's an autistic culture, right? Culturally, on the autism spectrum.

Horatio Gould 4:28 It's up there with Scotland, yeah.

Fin Taylor 4:30 Scotland, yeah. Uh, Germany. That's an autistic culture. Uh, I think Japan, yeah-

Horatio Gould 4:35 It shu- it shut its doors for 300 years-

Fin Taylor 4:37 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 4:37 ... and had no internal wars, which is very rare in history.

Fin Taylor 4:39 It was playing World of Warcraft in the basement for 1,000 years.

Horatio Gould 4:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:42 And wh- what does that cause if you shut the doors for 300 years and don't have-

Fin Taylor 4:45 What it causes-

Chris Williamson 4:46 Ah!

Horatio Gould 4:46 There, you're gonna get to that.

Fin Taylor 4:47 It's like, um-

Horatio Gould 4:49 That's how you...

Fin Taylor 4:49 I don't know. It's like homeschooled kids.

Horatio Gould 4:51 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 4:52 "Oh, is this weird?"

Horatio Gould 4:53 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 4:53 "Oh, yeah, we shit with the door open." Right. No one's ever-

Horatio Gould 4:57 Yeah, 'cause there's no, there's no outside influence.

Fin Taylor 4:58 Oh.

Horatio Gould 4:58 Or it's very moderated. And then they... That's why they're so-

Fin Taylor 5:01 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 5:02 And they never, never went up... They were never colonized, but they always took stuff and made it Japanese.

Fin Taylor 5:05 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 5:06 Which is why, like, bot-

Fin Taylor 5:06 Oh, should we put a squid in? Fuck it. No. That's not-

Horatio Gould 5:08 Yeah. Well, that... Actually, we did find the first octopus porn was in, like, the-

Fin Taylor 5:11 1800s.

Horatio Gould 5:12 60s. (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:13 What?

Horatio Gould 5:13 It's like a wood-carved octopus porn.

Fin Taylor 5:14 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 5:15 Because they had obscenity laws about showing... So the, the blurring, blurred porn-

Fin Taylor 5:20 Okay.

Horatio Gould 5:20 ... that's been going on for a while. To get around obscenity laws but to still get their rocks off, they'd show, they'd carve... Someone would carve it. That's fucking hilarious.

Fin Taylor 5:27 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 5:27 That's their job. Carving-

Fin Taylor 5:28 Quite beautifully carved, actually.

Horatio Gould 5:29 ... beautiful drawing.

Fin Taylor 5:30 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 5:30 Octopus fucking a woman.

Fin Taylor 5:32 Octopussy.

Horatio Gould 5:33 Oh, in 18-whatever. 1840 or something.

Fin Taylor 5:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:35 Okay. Don't they have those handjob-on-TV things? I've seen that. Like-

Fin Taylor 5:41 What's this?

Chris Williamson 5:41 Th- so Japan, Japanese TV has these weird, like, I don't know, competitions where girls-

Fin Taylor 5:49 Handjob competitions?

Chris Williamson 5:50 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 5:50 Milking competitions.

Fin Taylor 5:51 On TV?

Horatio Gould 5:52 Maybe I've seen that.

Chris Williamson 5:53 Or maybe it's not... Well, it's certainly, like-

Fin Taylor 5:54 Maybe it's on PornHub. I don't know if that's...

Chris Williamson 5:56 Honestly, I'm not kidding.

Fin Taylor 5:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:57 I b- I feel like this has been broadcast-

Fin Taylor 5:59 Is that where they pick, pick the prime minister?

Chris Williamson 6:00 ... outside of X-rated-

Fin Taylor 6:02 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 6:02 Skechy's prime minister.

Chris Williamson 6:03 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 6:04 ... whoever comes last becomes-

Chris Williamson 6:05 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 6:05 ... prime minister, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:06 Yeah. Like the- the most, uh, diplomatic game of soggy biscuit ever.

Fin Taylor 6:09 (laughs) Yeah.

Horatio Gould 6:09 High stakes soggy biscuit.

Fin Taylor 6:10 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 6:10 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 6:11 Elite level.

Chris Williamson 6:12 Okay, so Japan closes its stores for a long time and becomes weird.

Fin Taylor 6:16 Mm.

Chris Williamson 6:16 That's basically how you make a culture odd?

Fin Taylor 6:18 Mm.

Horatio Gould 6:18 I wouldn't say it's odd, it's just unique, very unique culture, very distinct-

Fin Taylor 6:21 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 6:21 ... in a way that, uh, other cultures-

Fin Taylor 6:23 It's one of the least-

Horatio Gould 6:24 ... maybe emerge more.

Fin Taylor 6:25 Yeah, it's n- it's very, uh, selectively globalized, right?

Horatio Gould 6:28 Mm.

Fin Taylor 6:28 Most cul- uh, cultures don't get to choose how they get globalized, right?

Horatio Gould 6:32 Mm.

Fin Taylor 6:32 It's just this kind of permeable wall and it just blends all together. Japan is like, "We'll take that. We won't take that. We w-" So it's, like, very structured how their- their culture's developed.

Chris Williamson 6:42 Mm. Does that play ... does that seppuku, uh, heritage play into kamikaze stuff when it comes to-

Fin Taylor 6:49 Yeah, yeah.

Horatio Gould 6:49 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:49 Is that... That's just the technological advantage-

Fin Taylor 6:51 Who wants to kill themselves?

Horatio Gould 6:52 Me, please.

Fin Taylor 6:53 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 6:53 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 6:53 It's the easiest. It's the most-

Chris Williamson 6:55 My granddad did. His granddad did.

Fin Taylor 6:56 And everyone's, like, so jealous when it's like, he gets to fucking fly, die doing what he loves. Oh.

Horatio Gould 7:01 But there's a-

Chris Williamson 7:02 Taking meth and-

Horatio Gould 7:03 The whole, the whole, the whole thing about-

Fin Taylor 7:04 Oh, love it.

Horatio Gould 7:04 ... you know, their, their, their belief system, it's like Shinto and Confucianism and Buddhism-

Fin Taylor 7:08 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 7:08 ... it's like a whole mix of it where all of it is like ... it's so detached from the everyday. Life is so ... You're such an observer of your own life-

Fin Taylor 7:17 Mm.

Horatio Gould 7:17 ... that killing yourself for a greater cause-

Fin Taylor 7:20 Mm.

Horatio Gould 7:20 ... is, like, if to our heads, acceptable.

Fin Taylor 7:23 Mm.

Horatio Gould 7:23 Whereas with the West, we're like, the individual, the freedom, life, that's the most important thing.

Fin Taylor 7:28 Right.

Horatio Gould 7:28 But the Japanese it's honor-

Fin Taylor 7:30 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 7:30 ... and it's wearing no shoes in the house.

Fin Taylor 7:32 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 7:33 And your life is subservient to wearing, not wearing shoes in the house.

Fin Taylor 7:37 (laughs) They're not Chris Evans.

Chris Williamson 7:38 Chris Evans said that.

Horatio Gould 7:38 But that, that leads to what we would call the night-night bomb-

Fin Taylor 7:41 Mm.

Horatio Gould 7:41 ... which is the, the, "Night-night!"

Fin Taylor 7:43 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 7:43 The big bang. "Going to bed!"

Fin Taylor 7:44 Yeah, night-

Horatio Gould 7:45 So they weren't going to bed.

Fin Taylor 7:45 ... Nagasaki night.

Horatio Gould 7:46 Night (laughs) night-

Fin Taylor 7:47 Hirosh-

Horatio Gould 7:47 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 7:47 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 7:47 Hiroshima night. Night-night, it's Nagasaki.

Fin Taylor 7:51 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 7:51 That leads to a culture where you just will not surrender-

Fin Taylor 7:54 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 7:54 ... because you're l- you know, you're so, you're so Buddhist, you're so detached from your own life-

Fin Taylor 7:58 Mm.

Horatio Gould 7:58 ... you're so in the moment-

Fin Taylor 7:59 Mm.

Horatio Gould 7:59 ... you're so mental health perfect score-

Fin Taylor 8:01 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 8:01 ... that you are just ... will kill yourself because y- y- you're above it almost. You're above your own life.

Chris Williamson 8:05 That sounds like modern ... That sounds like modern Wizard of Ozness.

Fin Taylor 8:06 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 8:06 Well, I don't wanna, you know-

Fin Taylor 8:07 But you know about that Japanese soldier who was found on that island in 1974?

Horatio Gould 8:10 Still fighting the war.

Fin Taylor 8:10 Who's still, still fighting the war.

Horatio Gould 8:12 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 8:12 What, what's the story?

Horatio Gould 8:12 So in one of the islands in the Pacific, I think he got stranded during, uh, World War II and they found him in 1976, I think.

Fin Taylor 8:20 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 8:20 And he was like ... he still came out and he was still with a kni- "Ah!"

Fin Taylor 8:24 Yeah, still going.

Horatio Gould 8:24 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 8:24 He thought the war was going on. That's how fucking mental they are. But God love him.

Chris Williamson 8:29 God love him.

Fin Taylor 8:30 God love him.

Chris Williamson 8:30 What was the name of the-

Fin Taylor 8:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:32 ... uh, operation where America thought we're gonna have to do a land invasion if the atomic bombs don't work and they were getting ready and they had a million body bags, they were ready for the most-

Fin Taylor 8:41 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 8:41 Well, that's one of the reasons, one of ... In the deciding to use it, one of the ... I can't remember the name of the operation-

Fin Taylor 8:46 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 8:46 ... but they were basically ... And I don't know how you'd ever actually do this. They were tallying up the potential deaths from the night-night bomb and the potential deaths from a land invasion-

Fin Taylor 8:54 Of American souls.

Horatio Gould 8:55 ... of Ame- and they said, they said that actually it was ... Again, I think maybe just they just wanted to use one.

Fin Taylor 8:59 Yeah. I think so.

Horatio Gould 9:00 They just said they ... I think (laughs) they thought, "We've got this new thing."

Fin Taylor 9:02 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 9:02 We'll give you-

Fin Taylor 9:02 Cool toy. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 9:03 Yeah. It's good for Christmas. Looks fucking sick. Look at this. Anyway, they said-

Fin Taylor 9:06 And it's the ultimate dad toy, isn't it?

Horatio Gould 9:08 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 9:08 If you're president-

Horatio Gould 9:09 In the shed.

Fin Taylor 9:09 ... when you've got like a ... yeah, when you've looked online, you've wa- looked at all the reviews and you've got the, like, the right-

Horatio Gould 9:13 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 9:13 ... fucking hedge trimmer, you really wanna use that.

Horatio Gould 9:16 Anyway, they, they, they said in their calculations that less deaths would be used from the, the atomic bomb than a, a ground invasion.

Chris Williamson 9:22 Uh-huh.

Horatio Gould 9:22 So that's how they justifi-

Chris Williamson 9:22 Presumably, less American deaths.

Horatio Gould 9:24 Well, yeah, obviously.

Fin Taylor 9:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:26 But also I guess maybe less Japanese deaths because it's that slow encroachment that makes you think, "Well, we can push them back. We might be able to win," as opposed to, "Okay, that was a big mess and we didn't really seem to be able to do anything about it."

Fin Taylor 9:37 Mm. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 9:38 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 9:39 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 9:39 I mean, we're not historians.

Fin Taylor 9:40 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 9:40 That's the thing to say, so.

Fin Taylor 9:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:41 Hang on. So can you just ...

Chris Williamson 9:44 What, what level of credentials do you have?

Fin Taylor 9:47 I got none.

Chris Williamson 9:48 You got the-

Horatio Gould 9:48 I have a, I have a degree from Bristol-

Fin Taylor 9:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:50 ... in-

Horatio Gould 9:50 ... in history.

Fin Taylor 9:51 And if you ain't a comedian, you'd probably end up being a history teacher probably.

Horatio Gould 9:54 Yeah, I mean, e- everyone in my family is, uh, a teacher and a lot of them are-

Fin Taylor 9:59 H- mm.

Horatio Gould 9:59 ... his- history teachers.

Chris Williamson 10:00 Okay.

Horatio Gould 10:00 And my aunt ran the photography, uh, at the Imperial War Museum her whole career. So-

Fin Taylor 10:06 That's your poten- credentials.

Horatio Gould 10:06 ... there's a real his- there's a real ... And like, you know, the obsession with Nazis is ... But I'm, I'm realizing it's 'cause it comes from Christmas every year.

Fin Taylor 10:12 So your aunt takes-

Horatio Gould 10:13 Genuinely.

Fin Taylor 10:13 ... your aunt takes photos of guns, that's all your cred- credentials?

Horatio Gould 10:15 Yeah. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 10:16 Right. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 10:17 She collects photos of guns.

Chris Williamson 10:19 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 10:19 And she, um ... Yeah, but that's ... My whole family is, is history teachers actually-

Fin Taylor 10:22 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 10:22 ... thinking about it. And then you just, you just-

Fin Taylor 10:24 I just like it.

Horatio Gould 10:25 You're just autistic, I think.

Fin Taylor 10:25 Yeah. I also-

Chris Williamson 10:26 Spent too much time on ChatGBT.

Fin Taylor 10:28 So yeah, something, something like that.

Horatio Gould 10:29 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 10:29 So we don't have any credentials.

Chris Williamson 10:31 It seems-

Horatio Gould 10:31 But we are, we are comedians.

Fin Taylor 10:33 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 10:33 And it's a, it's a, it's a comedy podcast-

Fin Taylor 10:35 It's a, it's a bit-

Horatio Gould 10:35 ... before it's a history podcast.

Fin Taylor 10:36 I'm worried that we've been called on here as historians. It, it, it's a-

Chris Williamson 10:38 Not at all.

Fin Taylor 10:39 The, the West has fallen.

Horatio Gould 10:40 Well, but this is the-

Fin Taylor 10:41 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 10:41 ... the podcast is legitimizing.

Fin Taylor 10:43 Yeah, yeah. I don't, I don't-

Chris Williamson 10:44 As we said, this is how low the barrel is being scraped in any case.

Fin Taylor 10:46 Yeah. Also part of the, the bit as well is how much you get away with having a posh accent and suits.

Horatio Gould 10:52 Yes.

Fin Taylor 10:52 It's amazing. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:53 It carries you a long way.

Fin Taylor 10:54 We're just talking out of our fucking ass and people are like, "Oh, wow." We're not even, these guys know something.

Horatio Gould 10:58 We just keep saying, "I do learn things."

Fin Taylor 11:00 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 11:00 We read-

Fin Taylor 11:01 I really wanna hit America 'cause that, they, they can't ... They're so vulnerable to Brits in suits.

Horatio Gould 11:06 They are, yeah.

Fin Taylor 11:07 Like, they, they just think you're, you're-

Horatio Gould 11:08 If you put a suit on, it would be-

Fin Taylor 11:09 Yeah, it's over.

Horatio Gould 11:09 ... absolute murder over there.

Chris Williamson 11:10 Vector for weakness.

Fin Taylor 11:11 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 11:12 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 11:12 I mean, it's the, the amount of havoc you can run with a British accent in America. I mean, you're doing it right now, but-

Horatio Gould 11:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:18 It's true.

Fin Taylor 11:18 Uh, but it's crazy. I mean-

Chris Williamson 11:19 Add the, add the tweed suit in.

Horatio Gould 11:20 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 11:20 Russell Brand, Graham Hancock.

Horatio Gould 11:23 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 11:23 Uh, I saw Graham Hancock, uh, on-

Chris Williamson 11:25 James Corden.

Fin Taylor 11:26 James Corden, yeah.

Horatio Gould 11:27 Cr- I mean, it- it's mad, isn't it?

Fin Taylor 11:29 Jimmy Carr going on those podcasts. I mean, they can't believe it. He's a, he's a smart guy in a suit. It's like, they'll believe anything he says, even if it's absolute bollocks. I saw Graham Hancock on a, like one of those ... I think it was fucking ... Not Huberman. It was one of those podcasts, uh, saying that he believes every candidate for US presidency should have to have taken ayahuasca. Yeah, that's-

Chris Williamson 11:52 I did see that.

Fin Taylor 11:52 ... as a rule.

Horatio Gould 11:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:53 I did see that.

Fin Taylor 11:53 And it's ... And h- him saying it in a suit being British-

Horatio Gould 11:56 Mm.

Fin Taylor 11:57 ... is like, that is quite a good idea, you know?

Horatio Gould 11:59 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 11:59 It's a terrible idea.

Chris Williamson 12:00 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 12:01 You have to take psychedelic drugs to be the president. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 12:04 Yeah, 'cause that's, well, that's who you want in charge of the night-night bomb.

Fin Taylor 12:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 12:07 It's someone who's at any moment going to have a flashback.

Fin Taylor 12:09 Yeah. And Americans are like, "Maybe I'm wrong 'cause he's got ... He does have a posh accent, so he must be-"

Horatio Gould 12:12 Yeah, he's wearing a suit.

Fin Taylor 12:13 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 12:14 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 12:15 (laughs) So that's the dream. We really... I do wanna hit America. I would love to try and see how far we can push it.

Horatio Gould 12:21 Do a university tour?

Fin Taylor 12:22 Yeah, just like how far we could be intellectuals over there.

Horatio Gould 12:25 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 12:25 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:25 I think that you'd be very well respected, uh, and they would, they, you, you probably could actually reshape what Americans think about their own history. I'm sure you'd be able to psyops them into believing something else with-

Fin Taylor 12:35 Well, you're trying to recolonize the curriculum at the minute.

Horatio Gould 12:37 I am writing a book called, called that, yeah.

Fin Taylor 12:39 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:39 Recolonize the curriculum.

Fin Taylor 12:41 Yeah, he's, he's recolonizing it. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 12:44 Recolonizing it.

Chris Williamson 12:44 What does that... What does that mean?

Horatio Gould 12:45 I don't know. I'm not sure I'm allowed to talk about it yet.

Fin Taylor 12:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:47 Okay.

Horatio Gould 12:47 But, um, yeah, I am writing a, (laughs) a pseudo-historical book.

Chris Williamson 12:51 Okay. Okay.

Horatio Gould 12:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:52 Well, it seems like you've kind of specialized in obscure bits of history as well. There's like a 24-year period of, or 34-year period of postwar British prime ministers-

Fin Taylor 13:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:03 ... which I didn't even know was a period of history. And you did-

Horatio Gould 13:06 Well, it's Brit- British history after the war until Thatcher is that the political consensus is very, very, very funny.

Fin Taylor 13:13 Yes.

Horatio Gould 13:13 Like, the, the-

Chris Williamson 13:13 Why?

Fin Taylor 13:13 And also, if the podcast is defined by anything, it probably... That, that's the period.

Horatio Gould 13:18 70s. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 13:19 It's sort of... If the podcast aesthetic is anything, it's-

Chris Williamson 13:22 Right.

Fin Taylor 13:23 ... British people broke in the '70s nostalgizing the '50s or the war.

Horatio Gould 13:27 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 13:27 That's sort of the vibe that we're going for.

Chris Williamson 13:29 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 13:30 So, the po- us doing that massive series on postwar pres- prime ministers, (laughs) even though it did lose a lot of viewers, but yeah, people are like, "You're still going on?"

Horatio Gould 13:37 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 13:37 "This has been a month." (laughs)

Horatio Gould 13:38 And then also there are now people this week when we started talking about-

Fin Taylor 13:41 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 13:41 ... Japan going, "What do you mean you're not doing Thatcher?" (laughs)

Fin Taylor 13:43 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 13:44 We've, we've been here for 10 episodes and you're not doing the interesting-"

Fin Taylor 13:46 You did a whole episode on Douglas-Alec-Yew.

Horatio Gould 13:48 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 13:48 Alec Douglas-Yew.

Horatio Gould 13:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:49 Okay, so it was like watching, being forced to watch a really boring prequel in the hopes that you were about to get the main series.

Fin Taylor 13:54 Yeah. Yeah, and you just don't-

Chris Williamson 13:55 And now you've just-

Horatio Gould 13:55 You just don't give it to them.

Fin Taylor 13:56 But we di- we do a Test cricket approach though.

Horatio Gould 13:58 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 13:58 It's like we're doing every inch of the post... No matter how boring they are, we will cover them.

Chris Williamson 14:02 And you blue balls-

Fin Taylor 14:03 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 14:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:04 ... the-

Horatio Gould 14:04 Millions of people.

Fin Taylor 14:05 But the, the section we just, the 10-part series, that was more the Attlee consensus and how it broke, right?

Horatio Gould 14:09 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 14:09 So after the war, Attlee's postwar socialist consensus, building the NHS, welfare state, all of that sort of stuff. And basically how that slowly broke down-

Chris Williamson 14:20 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 14:20 ... to the point that mommy came in.

Horatio Gould 14:21 They needed t- they, they got so desperate that they elected a woman-

Fin Taylor 14:24 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 14:24 ... as prime minister to come in and clean up the mess.

Fin Taylor 14:26 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 14:26 That's the sort of, that was the reach of the story.

Fin Taylor 14:27 Postwar Britain, cuck dad, bitch mom.

Horatio Gould 14:30 And, and-

Fin Taylor 14:30 That's how, that defines this country basically.

Horatio Gould 14:32 Yeah, 'cause it's Attlee, At- Attlee and Thatcher is who we all, all are.

Fin Taylor 14:34 Who we all are, actually.

Horatio Gould 14:35 That's the world we're living in, really.

Fin Taylor 14:35 We're living in Thatcher's world, but there's still remnants of Attlee. What's defined this country is Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher, for sure.

Chris Williamson 14:41 I'd never heard that name before.

Fin Taylor 14:43 Clement Attlee?

Chris Williamson 14:43 No.

Fin Taylor 14:44 So he was the prime minister who was in the war cabinet for Labour with Churchill, served well in the war, um, and then afterwards, in kind of a shock, he was voted in over Churchill straight away. 'Cause even though Churchill was a war hero, everyone wanted a change, the country was on its knees-

Horatio Gould 15:00 But, but also-

Fin Taylor 15:01 ... they didn't trust Churchill to be-

Horatio Gould 15:02 ... this happened at-

Fin Taylor 15:02 ... peace prime minister.

Horatio Gould 15:03 ... Potsdam, at the postwar conference.

Fin Taylor 15:06 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 15:06 Churchill's there one day, goes home to the election results, and then Attlee comes to Potsdam with, uh, who is it, Truman or...

Fin Taylor 15:13 Yes, it'd be Truman.

Horatio Gould 15:14 Truman.

Fin Taylor 15:14 It'd be Truman and Stalin.

Horatio Gould 15:15 Yeah, and Eisenhower and all these people. And Attlee looks like a fucking competition winner. ƒ (soft music)

Fin Taylor 15:19 So Potsdam is the conference when they're divvying up-

Horatio Gould 15:21 They're carving up.

Fin Taylor 15:21 It's not Yalta- it's the one after Yalta where they're all divvying up, uh, ge-

Horatio Gould 15:25 Germany and-

Fin Taylor 15:25 Germany after the war.

Chris Williamson 15:27 Uh-huh.

Fin Taylor 15:27 And th- on the, on the plane, Attlee finds out he's prime minister and no one thought he was gonna win.

Horatio Gould 15:31 And he's there, you can see photos and he's like, "Fucking hell, Stalin-"

Fin Taylor 15:33 It's like, it's like-

Horatio Gould 15:34 "... what's he doing here?"

Fin Taylor 15:34 ... it's like Fugger fam with Stalin.

Horatio Gould 15:35 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 15:36 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 15:36 It's crazy.

Fin Taylor 15:37 Um-

Horatio Gould 15:37 But it, but it, when he comes to power-

Fin Taylor 15:39 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 15:39 ... in the space of about a year and a half-

Fin Taylor 15:41 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 15:41 ... he builds the entirety of the welfare state. And then from that moment onwards until Thatcher comes in, th- the state is just creaking because you start to live in a globalized economy.

Fin Taylor 15:52 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 15:52 The Middle East kicks off, turns our lights off. And so... But n- but everyone, everyone in politics has fought in the war. No one feels they can disrupt the consensus until-

Fin Taylor 16:04 A woman comes along.

Horatio Gould 16:04 ... Thatcher co- woman comes along-

Fin Taylor 16:05 Why can't they just-

Horatio Gould 16:06 ... slaps you on the face.

Fin Taylor 16:06 ... why can't they disrupt the s- consensus?

Horatio Gould 16:07 Because it's all, the, the money they're paying for the unions, and this is where the union power sp- gets too big in the '70s.

Fin Taylor 16:12 Mm-hmm. Also the Blitz spirit-

Horatio Gould 16:13 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 16:13 ... these guys all fought together, so there was just a much more communal, uh, attitude-

Horatio Gould 16:18 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 16:18 ... for rebuilding Britain.

Horatio Gould 16:19 As Thatcher releases this kind of free market and also this sort of psychological individualism-

Fin Taylor 16:23 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 16:24 ... where it's like all about making money suddenly-

Fin Taylor 16:26 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 16:26 ... not the individual. And it's not tied to con-

Chris Williamson 16:27 So is that... That, that's the, the tension, the conflict is this sort of very socialists-

Fin Taylor 16:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:33 ... beginning to a very sort of capitalist meri- meritocratic-

Horatio Gould 16:37 It snaps back, it snaps back hard in the '80s.

Fin Taylor 16:38 But, you know, we've still got the NHS, we've still got the welf- welfare state. There's still like Attlee's-

Chris Williamson 16:42 We didn't have the NHS before-

Fin Taylor 16:43 No, no, that was an Attlee invention.

Chris Williamson 16:45 Ah, well, no.

Fin Taylor 16:45 And also he was a, basically a one-term prime ministership. You know, he was only in for six years.

Chris Williamson 16:50 But did a lot.

Fin Taylor 16:51 But he did so much. In the first two years pretty much. Did so much that it's like the most productive, uh, prim- m- and revolutionary prime ministership.

Chris Williamson 16:59 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 17:00 In, uh, yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:00 But I do think it, it was only possible because of the complete blank slate-

Fin Taylor 17:04 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:05 ... at the end of World War II.

Fin Taylor 17:06 I mean, your view is that we didn't get bombed enough. Y- y- 'cause it was one or the other. We got bombed-

Horatio Gould 17:12 What do you mean?

Fin Taylor 17:12 ... annoying... 'Cause you're like-

Horatio Gould 17:13 No, if you look, if you look at Ger- Germany-

Fin Taylor 17:14 If like all of our rails were, were bombed-

Horatio Gould 17:16 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 17:16 ... then we could rebuild them.

Horatio Gould 17:17 Yes, exactly.

Fin Taylor 17:17 'Cause that's like they're, they're actually paying to do the, the breaking down.

Horatio Gould 17:21 Well, what, well, if you w- if you wanna get into it-

Fin Taylor 17:24 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:24 ... uh, Germany and Japan arguably win the peace-

Fin Taylor 17:27 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:27 ... because they were so devastated, defeated, and then they were basically funded by the Americans-

Fin Taylor 17:32 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:32 ... to rebuild. So they, they, their economy started growing very quickly after the war.

Fin Taylor 17:36 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:36 They had a massive '50s boom. Britain is bankrupt, uh, and yet not completely destroyed. And yet we spend all of the money-

Fin Taylor 17:44 And, 'cause we're pretending we're not bankrupt.

Horatio Gould 17:46 No, but also we spend-

Fin Taylor 17:47 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:47 ... all the money the Americans give us. The condition of them giving the money is that we have to have a nuclear bomb.

Fin Taylor 17:51 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:52 And so we start arming ourselves because we're in the Cold War era.

Fin Taylor 17:56 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 17:56 And so that's why we have no money from the off.

Fin Taylor 17:59 That's why so many houses from that period are so hideous.

Horatio Gould 18:02 They're still there.

Fin Taylor 18:02 And it's-

Horatio Gould 18:02 They built these temporary prefab houses, th- that were meant to be like-

Fin Taylor 18:05 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 18:05 ... last three years.

Fin Taylor 18:05 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 18:06 That's, that's Wel- Welsh housing stock still.

Fin Taylor 18:09 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 18:10 It's crazy.

Fin Taylor 18:11 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 18:11 Anyway, we, there's a whole-

Fin Taylor 18:12 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 18:12 There's a whole 10-hour symphony, uh,

Horatio Gould 18:15 of, of that.

Fin Taylor 18:15 Were there other, uh, any other-

Horatio Gould 18:17 Historical history.

Fin Taylor 18:17 ... unlikely heroes that you sort of fell in love with postwar?

Horatio Gould 18:20 How, I mean, Howard Wilson's second term.

Fin Taylor 18:22 Wilson's a beast.

Horatio Gould 18:23 The episode is called Stop Pegging Grandad.

Fin Taylor 18:25 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 18:25 That-He was being sexually dominated by his private secretary-

Chris Williamson 18:30 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 18:30 ... during-

Chris Williamson 18:30 Marcia.

Horatio Gould 18:30 ... Mar- Marcia Williams.

Chris Williamson 18:31 Actually, this isn't one of your euphemisms?

Horatio Gould 18:32 No, you can, you can f- look at The Rest Is History.

Chris Williamson 18:35 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 18:35 They talk about it, so it's real. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:37 Yeah. (laughs) Okay.

Horatio Gould 18:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:37 Hang on. So the litmus test for Finn versus history-

Horatio Gould 18:40 Yep.

Chris Williamson 18:41 ... is The Rest Is History?

Fin Taylor 18:42 I mean, I ran into Tom Holland at a historical exhibition. I said, "By the way, I'm about to start a podcast which is just me remembering your podcast."

Horatio Gould 18:49 Mm.

Fin Taylor 18:50 And, you know. So that's basically what-

Horatio Gould 18:52 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 18:52 ... the premise of this podcast is.

Horatio Gould 18:53 In many ways.

Fin Taylor 18:54 Is us trying to b- remember some of their episodes and getting it wrong.

Horatio Gould 18:57 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 18:57 That's sort of the shtick.

Horatio Gould 18:58 Yeah, it is.

Fin Taylor 18:58 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 18:59 But, but there's a brilliant... Probably my favorite is, um... 'Cause Sam Brooke is a very... That is one of his specialist topics-

Fin Taylor 19:05 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 19:05 ... is political history in the '70s.

Fin Taylor 19:07 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 19:08 There's an episode, there's a series on 1974, The Crisis Year-

Fin Taylor 19:11 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 19:11 ... that is fucking hilarious.

Fin Taylor 19:12 It's the best one, probably.

Horatio Gould 19:13 Uh, yeah. And that's where, that's where we, why we wanted to do this. 'Cause like Heath as well. Heath is such a funny prime minister.

Fin Taylor 19:19 Basically Marcia... He... Wilson, on his second term... His first term was pretty revolutionary. It was like g- like repealing gay rights. It was the '60s. It was basically-

Horatio Gould 19:27 Repealing gay rights?

Fin Taylor 19:28 Uh, introducing gay rights.

Horatio Gould 19:29 Right.

Fin Taylor 19:30 Yeah, sorry. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 19:30 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 19:31 Repealing gay rights was what's about to happen.

Horatio Gould 19:33 Yep.

Fin Taylor 19:33 Um, and by his second term he was completely exhausted. They're all exhausted, but-

Horatio Gould 19:39 He had early onset-

Fin Taylor 19:40 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 19:40 ... uh, Alzheimer's. Yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 19:41 And then his assistant... He had this sort of psychosexual thing. Wasn't his wife, it was his assistant, Marcia. For example, he was at... I think in Downing Street this happened-

Horatio Gould 19:51 Mm.

Fin Taylor 19:51 ... that Marcia said, "Come here, you little cunt," to the prime minister-

Horatio Gould 19:56 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 19:57 ... in front of all of his aides.

Horatio Gould 19:58 And-

Fin Taylor 19:58 And then he went.

Horatio Gould 19:59 Yeah, and he just went with her.

Fin Taylor 20:00 Yeah. So she was just like this... Uh, she, uh-

Horatio Gould 20:03 They'd slept-

Fin Taylor 20:03 When he won, when he won his record fourth election, uh, he w- uh, she told him the wrong address for, um, the celebration party, so there was no one there.

Horatio Gould 20:12 She canceled it.

Fin Taylor 20:13 Yeah. And she was just-

Chris Williamson 20:14 Because she just liked to dominate him mostly?

Fin Taylor 20:16 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 20:16 So they, they-

Chris Williamson 20:16 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 20:16 And she was there, and he ro- turned up, and then she started bollocking him.

Horatio Gould 20:19 They had an affair in the '50s, and she told his wife, she said, "I went to your... I went to bed with your husband six times in 1956, and it was less than satisfactory."

Fin Taylor 20:27 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 20:28 And, and... But she's his private secretary.

Fin Taylor 20:29 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 20:30 So through the whole of his political career, he has these two wives, and one of them is pegging him in Downing Street-

Fin Taylor 20:35 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 20:36 ... whilst the coun- the country's completely crumbling.

Fin Taylor 20:38 Yeah, yeah.

Horatio Gould 20:38 I mean.

Fin Taylor 20:39 Wilson's great. Ted Heath... 'Cause it flipped between Wilson and Heath-

Horatio Gould 20:42 Heath's the goat, in my book.

Fin Taylor 20:42 ... over the '70s. They, they-

Horatio Gould 20:44 The rudest man there's ever, has ever been Prime Minister.

Fin Taylor 20:45 Yeah. And he maybe is a pedophile, uh, but-

Horatio Gould 20:48 Who knows?

Fin Taylor 20:48 Who knows? You couldn't possibly know. But he absolutely hated women so much that they were invisible.

Horatio Gould 20:53 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 20:53 He transcended mi- misogyny.

Chris Williamson 20:54 So you had one person whose life was run by a woman that was pegging him, and another one who didn't see it at all.

Fin Taylor 20:58 And they would flip-

Horatio Gould 20:59 And then the gre- the great-

Fin Taylor 21:00 ... between Downing Street-

Horatio Gould 21:00 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 21:00 ... 'cause th- 'cause the country kept going into state of emergencies. There had to be so many elections. It was like Brexit, but it was worse than Brexit.

Horatio Gould 21:06 But the... But then the great irony is the man who, who literally didn't, didn't see women, he got so annoyed by them, then gets usurped by Thatcher.

Fin Taylor 21:12 And he hates Thatcher.

Chris Williamson 21:14 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 21:14 And he, and he, he hates Thatcher. And he goes into what's called the longest sulk in history-

Fin Taylor 21:18 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 21:18 ... where... He's still in the Commons.

Fin Taylor 21:20 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 21:20 I mean, he becomes the, um, uh, Father of the House.

Fin Taylor 21:22 Right.

Horatio Gould 21:22 He's, he's there till like the '90s or whatever-

Fin Taylor 21:24 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 21:24 ... when he dies. And it... Whenever Thatcher speaks, you can see him (laughs) turning his nose up.

Fin Taylor 21:28 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 21:29 Like that. Oh, love Heath.

Fin Taylor 21:30 Yeah. So Heath and Wilson-

Horatio Gould 21:32 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 21:32 ... are our two other favorites probably.

Horatio Gould 21:33 Yeah.

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Chris Williamson 22:30 This is so good. I didn't realize that there was so much bullshit going on that we needed to have these snap elections just back to back to back, like what the fuck?

Fin Taylor 22:39 Well, one thing that I found quite therapeutic, which I always find therapeutic about history is realizing how fucked things were-

Chris Williamson 22:44 Mm.

Fin Taylor 22:44 ... to put some perspective.

Chris Williamson 22:45 Mm.

Fin Taylor 22:45 'Cause certainly if you're on Twitter, it feels like everything's grinding to a halt, everything's awful.

Chris Williamson 22:50 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 22:50 But you just look 20 years, 30 years backwards and you're like, "It could be a lot worse." 1974, comparing it to British political history now, you remember it's a lot of the same things we're going through now, but worse.

Chris Williamson 23:03 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 23:03 Energy crisis, the economy.

Horatio Gould 23:05 Three-day week.

Fin Taylor 23:06 Yeah, all of that sort of stuff.

Chris Williamson 23:07 What's a three-day week?

Horatio Gould 23:08 They, they, uh, they didn't have the energy because the miners were demanding so much money and the, and the-

Chris Williamson 23:12 Mm.

Horatio Gould 23:13 ... um, prime minister was in a standoff with them. And then the OPEC crisis kicks off with the Middle East wars. So suddenly energy is insanely expensive and the miners realize that they actually... Well, th- they've got all the leverage to demand what they need, but the country can't afford to pay them what they want. So Ted Heath doesn't give them what they want. He says, um, "Everyone can only use electricity for three days a week." So he rations electricity. TV ends at 10:00 PM.

Fin Taylor 23:37 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 23:37 Um, that's when football starts getting played on Sundays because they can't afford to use floodlights.

Fin Taylor 23:42 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 23:43 So football, which was always on Saturdays.

Chris Williamson 23:43 Has to be in the daytime.

Horatio Gould 23:45 Yeah, has to be in the daytime, so-

Fin Taylor 23:46 I mean, it got so bleak, yeah.

Horatio Gould 23:47 And apparently that's when, um, uh, uh, kinky stuff starts.

Fin Taylor 23:51 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 23:51 'Cause one of the government advi- mand- advice was there's only... You can only work for three days. So to pass the time, why don't you experiment with your sex lives?

Fin Taylor 23:59 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 24:00 So butt stuff starts because the light's gone.

Fin Taylor 24:02 But you gotta do, you gotta pass the time somehow.

Horatio Gould 24:04 You can only do it with the lights off.

Fin Taylor 24:05 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 24:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:06 That pegging guy could have been perfectly timed, yeah.

Horatio Gould 24:07 That's probably when it started getting pegged.

Fin Taylor 24:09 Yeah, exactly.

Horatio Gould 24:09 So yeah. Three-day week.

Fin Taylor 24:10 Uh, but it got so bleak, Idi Amin, uh-

Horatio Gould 24:12 Oh, yes.

Fin Taylor 24:13 ... sa- was gonna, uh, send-

Chris Williamson 24:14 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 24:14 Was trying to send an airplane full of vegetables to feed s- the starving Brits. He said, "We, we're so heartbroken to see the way that, you know, our former colonial masters are suffering-"

Horatio Gould 24:24 Great bit.

Fin Taylor 24:24 ... "that all of the people... We've gathered round," and everyone's, like, done a whip-around to help Britain.

Chris Williamson 24:28 It's like reverse reparations.

Fin Taylor 24:29 And Britain obviously, look-

Horatio Gould 24:30 No, it's Comic Relief in reverse.

Fin Taylor 24:31 Yeah. It's so-

Horatio Gould 24:32 It's Idi Amin, Ugandan dictator, sending charitable donations to Britain.

Chris Williamson 24:36 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 24:37 It's exquisite. It's absolutely exquisite.

Fin Taylor 24:37 So when, uh... My p- The point is though, when people say this country's in the toilet-

Chris Williamson 24:41 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 24:41 There's a feeling that it's like we're- we're in terminal decline. It's like we ... it's been far worse.

Chris Williamson 24:45 Do you realize how much worse it's been? Yeah.

Fin Taylor 24:47 And within our parents' lifetime, and we've gotten out of it, so I do think it's good to have a bit of framing sometimes.

Chris Williamson 24:54 Speaking of the vegetables thing, I had, uh, John Lisle on. He wrote, uh, The Dirty Tricks Department, which was about the founding of the OSS.

Horatio Gould 25:01 Mind control. Yeah, we did a series on, um-

Fin Taylor 25:04 Oh, like-

Horatio Gould 25:04 CIA.

Fin Taylor 25:05 Oh, MKUltra and all this other stuff.

Horatio Gould 25:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:06 His, his second book was on M- MKUltra.

Horatio Gould 25:08 Right.

Chris Williamson 25:08 His first book was the founding of the OSS, Stanley Lovell.

Horatio Gould 25:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:12 Uh, William-

Fin Taylor 25:12 A fellow historian.

Chris Williamson 25:13 ... fucking-

Horatio Gould 25:13 Burroughs.

Chris Williamson 25:14 ... ba-ba-ba-ba. Anyway, um, there was a story that he looked at, 'cause he's in, uh, the archives in Texas and he's reading these original documents.

Fin Taylor 25:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:22 The, uh, vegetables thing reminded me of a story where a psychological assessment had been done of Hitler, and they'd found out that he had a very fragile hold on his masculinity.

Fin Taylor 25:31 Oh, yeah?

Chris Williamson 25:32 And, uh-

Horatio Gould 25:32 No. No, I won't-

Fin Taylor 25:32 No, no, go on.

Horatio Gould 25:33 I won't, I won't take it.

Fin Taylor 25:34 That was the most secure man I've ever seen.

Horatio Gould 25:35 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:36 Uh, so their, their, their attempt was they found the gardener who grew the vegetables that went to the, the... What was it? The Bird's Nest? What was the-

Horatio Gould 25:49 Eagle's Nest.

Fin Taylor 25:49 Eagle's Nest.

Chris Williamson 25:50 Um, the-

Horatio Gould 25:51 Berkshire, Berkshire's garden, yeah.

Fin Taylor 25:53 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 25:53 I know that one. No, yep, yep. Bang.

Fin Taylor 25:57 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 25:58 I didn't even finish, finish the question. Buzz.

Fin Taylor 26:02 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:02 Um, they f- (laughs) found the gardener who grew the vegetables that went to the Eagle's Nest.

Horatio Gould 26:06 Yep.

Chris Williamson 26:07 And, uh, they-

Horatio Gould 26:08 Hans, I believe he was called.

Fin Taylor 26:10 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 26:10 Hans. I don't know that one. I don't know that one.

Fin Taylor 26:12 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 26:12 But I met him once.

Fin Taylor 26:13 Hey-

Horatio Gould 26:14 Shook, shook his hand.

Fin Taylor 26:15 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:15 Tried to inject the vegetables that were going to the Eagle's Nest-

Horatio Gould 26:18 Poisonous, poisonous food.

Chris Williamson 26:19 ... with female sex hormones.

Horatio Gould 26:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:21 In an attempt to try and trans Hitler. They said his mustache would fall off.

Horatio Gould 26:24 Yeah, mustache would fall off.

Chris Williamson 26:24 He'd have a-

Horatio Gould 26:24 And his voice would go higher.

Chris Williamson 26:25 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 26:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know this, yeah.

Fin Taylor 26:26 True.

Chris Williamson 26:26 You do know your history. That's incredible.

Fin Taylor 26:28 Well, he knows an specific part of history-

Chris Williamson 26:30 What an obscure bit of history.

Fin Taylor 26:30 ... incredibly well.

Chris Williamson 26:32 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 26:32 Yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 26:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:32 What an obscure story to know. I thought I was gonna be able to teach you something new.

Horatio Gould 26:36 No, I knew that.

Fin Taylor 26:37 Don't try... You can't get anything by, about Hitler past Finn. Nothing goes past.

Horatio Gould 26:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:41 Okay, you're a world expert on Hitler.

Fin Taylor 26:43 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 26:43 Let's say that, yeah.

Fin Taylor 26:44 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 26:44 That's, that's what I'd like you to say.

Fin Taylor 26:46 World expert. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 26:48 Expert on Hitler.

Chris Williamson 26:48 Or Hitler's biggest fan, I think is a better word.

Fin Taylor 26:50 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 26:50 Biggest empath.

Fin Taylor 26:51 Cosplayer.

Horatio Gould 26:52 No, I'm, I'm an empa- I'm an empath.

Fin Taylor 26:53 Yeah, he's a selective empath.

Horatio Gould 26:54 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:55 Okay. (laughs)

Fin Taylor 26:55 He's only an empath for one man.

Horatio Gould 26:57 For one man.

Chris Williamson 26:57 Reverse empath.

Fin Taylor 26:58 He has no empathy for anyone else. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 27:00 No.

Chris Williamson 27:00 Uh, but yeah, that, um, that idea of injecting vegetables with-

Horatio Gould 27:04 Female, yeah, female hormones.

Chris Williamson 27:05 ... female sex hormones.

Fin Taylor 27:05 Well, I mean, trans Hitler, I mean, that opens up a world of possibilities.

Horatio Gould 27:08 Imagine. Imagine.

Fin Taylor 27:08 Powerful.

Horatio Gould 27:09 The things we never got to see.

Fin Taylor 27:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:12 Interesting for the worst crimes of the 20th century, uh, Hitler, Stalin-

Fin Taylor 27:17 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:18 ... Mao-

Fin Taylor 27:18 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:18 ... all terrible relationships to their fathers.

Horatio Gould 27:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 27:21 Imagine if they'd had modern wisdom back in the day.

Fin Taylor 27:23 But in that period, who had a good relationship with their father?

Horatio Gould 27:25 Yeah, modern ancient fucktards. That's us.

Fin Taylor 27:26 Like, I feel it was before, it was pre-good relationships with fathers, right?

Horatio Gould 27:30 This was handshakes, fathers were-

Fin Taylor 27:31 Yeah, I mean-

Horatio Gould 27:32 I mean, as a father myself, I do-

Chris Williamson 27:33 Like that.

Fin Taylor 27:33 I'd like to, I'd like to see who... Did Churchill have a good relationship with his father?

Chris Williamson 27:37 No.

Fin Taylor 27:37 No. So it's just like-

Chris Williamson 27:38 Horrendous. Fucking awful.

Horatio Gould 27:39 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 27:39 It's, I don't think you could say that was the cause of them, because it was like e- everyone-

Horatio Gould 27:42 I'd say, I'd say we're the first generation to, to, to be dads-

Fin Taylor 27:46 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 27:46 ... that are th- trying.

Fin Taylor 27:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:48 That are actually invested. That's a really good point.

Horatio Gould 27:49 Not invested in the-

Fin Taylor 27:49 'Cause if you look at them, you look at their life and you go, "It was clearly this." But then you look at anyone on their street.

Horatio Gould 27:54 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 27:54 You look at anyone in the village.

Horatio Gould 27:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:55 Why did, why did he not become Mao?

Fin Taylor 27:57 Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 27:57 Why did he not become Stalin?

Horatio Gould 27:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:59 Uh, Churchill, how do you think he would get on in the modern world of TikTok with day drinking-

Fin Taylor 28:06 He'd be a body positivity influencer.

Chris Williamson 28:08 ... and booming...

Horatio Gould 28:08 He, no, he's like that guy.

Fin Taylor 28:10 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 28:10 He's like, "Drinking today!" That guy.

Fin Taylor 28:12 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 28:12 The Welsh guy.

Chris Williamson 28:12 What's the-

Fin Taylor 28:13 What's his name? Oh, we've got to, we've got to shout, shout him out.

Horatio Gould 28:15 Sandro.

Fin Taylor 28:16 Sandro, he does the, uh, Pole-Matic Pub Podcast. You've gotta watch his... This is great for your listeners.

Horatio Gould 28:20 So he's, so, so he's like the opposite of you.

Fin Taylor 28:22 Okay.

Horatio Gould 28:22 In that your health, your health, you know, you're a bit biohacky, right?

Fin Taylor 28:25 Okay.

Chris Williamson 28:25 Yeah, yeah, biohack light.

Horatio Gould 28:27 Yeah, right. This guy is the op-... What's the opposite of a biohack?

Fin Taylor 28:30 I don't know. It's-

Horatio Gould 28:31 It's a biofuck.

Fin Taylor 28:31 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 28:32 This guy-

Fin Taylor 28:32 Biofuck it! (laughs)

Horatio Gould 28:33 This guy, uh, this guy-

Fin Taylor 28:34 What are you drinking today?

Horatio Gould 28:35 He's like, "Drinking today!" It's him-

Fin Taylor 28:36 And then he'll go on holiday to Magaluf with his friends.

Horatio Gould 28:38 Oh, my word. It's, it's insane.

Fin Taylor 28:39 And then he will proceed to sh- to video every drink he drinks, and it will be-

Horatio Gould 28:44 Like a mon- more highlight-

Fin Taylor 28:45 ... you know, 25 beers.

Horatio Gould 28:46 Highlights reel.

Fin Taylor 28:47 He'll go through the cocktail menu at, at his hotel, 14 cocktails.

Horatio Gould 28:50 Yeah. "Strawberry daiquiri, lovely."

Fin Taylor 28:52 Lovely.

Horatio Gould 28:53 "Hi, Stella. Lovely to see you."

Fin Taylor 28:54 So that would be...

Horatio Gould 28:55 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 28:55 If we can get any of that up, if you can do some research and put it up, please-

Chris Williamson 28:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah, we can cut, we can cut some of that in.

Fin Taylor 28:59 ... I'd love to shout, shout him out.

Horatio Gould 29:00 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 29:00 Uh, he doesn't have long left. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 29:02 Can't have long.

Fin Taylor 29:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:03 Is it a YouTube channel or Instagram or what?

Fin Taylor 29:05 It's on TikTok as well.

Horatio Gould 29:06 Oh, it's on... Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:07 Okay, brilliant.

Fin Taylor 29:08 Um-

Chris Williamson 29:09 Uh, but anyway, Churchill day drinking.

Fin Taylor 29:10 Churchill today.

Chris Williamson 29:10 Booming speeches. How do you reckon he'd get on, modern world? Can you get away with that? Well, I guess it's kind of like, um-

Fin Taylor 29:16 The culture's shifted, certainly.

Horatio Gould 29:17 But then we have, there has been a dearth of political charisma, and I think that's not politicians' fault. I think it's as, as trust has gone... Not trust.

Fin Taylor 29:27 As trust has gone.

Chris Williamson 29:27 You need trust.

Horatio Gould 29:27 Trust has gone, but-

Fin Taylor 29:29 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 29:29 There's trust.

Fin Taylor 29:31 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 29:31 Lovely, lovely this.

Fin Taylor 29:33 Charisma's gone 'cause trust is gone.

Horatio Gould 29:35 Charisma's gone. Charisma left when trust did. Yeah. No, um, we gotta stop electing people 'cause they're fit.

Fin Taylor 29:41 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 29:41 But the, uh, yeah, the charismatic politicians that they have, we haven't really... I guess, I guess Far- Farage is probably the last successful-

Chris Williamson 29:49 Mm.

Horatio Gould 29:49 ... sort of successful one.

Chris Williamson 29:49 Is that because to be statesmanlike is not to be sort of gregarious in that way?

Horatio Gould 29:54 Yeah, state- statesmanship is, is old-fashioned if we're living in the era of Trump and Farage and Vance and stuff. That feels more-

Fin Taylor 29:59 But is there a link between the success of the country and the success of the politicians? 'Cause if you look at the politicians during the Victorian age when Britain was the predominant power in the world, they, they did seem more charismatic, but just by the nature of what they were dealing with, right? Do you feel like-

Horatio Gould 30:15 They also didn't have to deal with the public in the way that, that they did.

Fin Taylor 30:17 Yeah, I guess so. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:19 I guess Trump is kind of like a sober Churchill, at least-

Fin Taylor 30:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:22 ... in that he's, like, very gregarious, the booming speeches, he just doesn't do the drinking bit.

Fin Taylor 30:26 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 30:27 And maybe it's just Churchill's accent and, and, like, dress sense that lends a sense of charm to the outrageousness of Trump.

Fin Taylor 30:34 Yeah. Was he outrageous? What, Churchill?

Horatio Gould 30:36 Well, by today's standards, I guess.

Fin Taylor 30:38 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 30:38 But then at the time, maybe he wasn't.

Fin Taylor 30:39 Yeah, e- what's more impressive, I think, is the...It is extraordinary, that level of- I don't know anyone who has that level of productivity, drinking that much.

Horatio Gould 30:48 Yeah, I just-

Fin Taylor 30:49 It's quite- I don't know how cultural that is. I think people drink less now, people are much more health-conscious now. But seeing as it was so normalized to drink and smoke that much.

Horatio Gould 30:59 The more inter- the more-

Fin Taylor 30:59 If I started drinking and smoking, I wouldn't get anything.

Horatio Gould 31:01 The more interesting question is, how would Brian Johnson get on in the war cabinet?

Fin Taylor 31:04 Yeah. Wow.

Horatio Gould 31:07 In the 40s.

Chris Williamson 31:07 That would be wonderful.

Fin Taylor 31:07 Because Churchill went, "Who the fuck's this nonce?"

Horatio Gould 31:09 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 31:09 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 31:09 "Have a beer would you, mate?"

Fin Taylor 31:10 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 31:11 You wouldn't live forever, it's the 40s.

Chris Williamson 31:13 Going to bed at 10:00 PM.

Horatio Gould 31:13 Yeah, come on. Fucking wake up.

Chris Williamson 31:15 He also did deal with depression his whole life though, right? Really aggressive depression.

Horatio Gould 31:19 Yeah, let's get serious. Let's get serious, Chris.

Chris Williamson 31:23 Churchill?

Horatio Gould 31:23 Churchill. Churchill's depressed.

Chris Williamson 31:25 I thought he was-

Horatio Gould 31:26 Was-

Chris Williamson 31:26 Was he not? Was he not... Did he not have the black dog thing that was following him around? Is that not his whole thing?

Horatio Gould 31:29 I mean, you look at what he was drinking-

Chris Williamson 31:30 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 31:31 ... of course he's fucking depressed.

Chris Williamson 31:31 Is it possible to be not depressed being that hungover all the time?

Fin Taylor 31:34 Yeah, I don't... 'Cause Churchill being depressed is... One, he wouldn't even know what depression is.

Horatio Gould 31:37 I don't think depression existed until like the '70s.

Fin Taylor 31:39 Yeah, he was just a British bloke which is like, sometimes he was in a gr- grump.

Horatio Gould 31:42 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 31:42 And he didn't know what that was.

Chris Williamson 31:43 Right, okay.

Fin Taylor 31:44 So I don't know.

Horatio Gould 31:45 You're drinking weird whiskey on the nightstand.

Fin Taylor 31:46 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 31:46 You're drinking whiskey when you wake up. Of course he's depressed.

Chris Williamson 31:48 He had a... He, he made... Is it Pol Roger the, the-

Horatio Gould 31:52 Champagne.

Chris Williamson 31:53 ... champagne. And he had a custom-sized bottle made because he said a half bottle was not sufficient and a full bottle was too much to have with lunch.

Fin Taylor 31:59 He was a schooner, sort of. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 32:00 Too much, yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:01 So he, he, he's sort of a th- a two-thirds... "What I drink in a day!"

Horatio Gould 32:05 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 32:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:05 That could have been it. (laughs) Yeah, I d- i- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:10 it's weird, like World War II stuff is kind of ASMR for white guys in their 30s.

Fin Taylor 32:16 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 32:16 Yes.

Chris Williamson 32:17 D- documentaries.

Fin Taylor 32:18 It comes through us all.

Horatio Gould 32:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:19 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 32:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:19 And, and that is... I imagine that there's just an infinite amount of stuff that you can keep going back over with regards to that.

Horatio Gould 32:25 Well, we're trying to stretch it out on our pod-

Fin Taylor 32:26 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 32:26 ... because it is, it is the... It's real just nitroglycerin-

Fin Taylor 32:29 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 32:29 ... for the listeners. They love it.

Fin Taylor 32:32 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 32:32 Um, 'cause it is, it's probably the most exciting thing that's, that's...

Fin Taylor 32:35 Well it's like, all of history, right, was leading to the night-night bomb.

Horatio Gould 32:39 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 32:39 And everything's been going out. It's like an hourglass, that's it.

Horatio Gould 32:41 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 32:41 It's like all... History is like a pyramid leading towards the big atomic explosion.

Chris Williamson 32:46 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 32:46 So that's like the... And then everything's been a fallout since then, right?

Chris Williamson 32:49 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 32:49 That's how... So I think World War II is just, if you like history, it's the, it's the big... It's the season finale, right?

Chris Williamson 32:54 It's the perfect amount of-

Fin Taylor 32:56 It's brilliant.

Chris Williamson 32:56 ... long enough ago that it's interesting to research, but close enough to us that there was sufficient information captured about it-

Horatio Gould 33:03 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 33:03 Yeah. Video and-

Chris Williamson 33:03 ... to be able to...

Fin Taylor 33:05 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 33:05 Yeah. But also the kind of, the, the Biblical nature of the light and dark, good and evil.

Fin Taylor 33:10 Yeah, the sides are more fun.

Horatio Gould 33:11 Th- that doesn't, th- that doesn't really happen under th- the fucking aesthetics and so much of culture, like Star Wars, uh, is, is built off that similar-

Fin Taylor 33:19 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 33:19 ... like-

Fin Taylor 33:19 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 33:19 ... evil, dark sides, with the great outfits.

Fin Taylor 33:23 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 33:23 They look great. And this kind of iconic baddie. And then the, the rebel... I know it's based on Vietnam, Star Wars, but you know, the, the, um, the rebels and stuff.

Fin Taylor 33:33 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 33:33 That, that, that, that do- that doesn't really happen in conflicts since, I guess we're afraid-

Chris Williamson 33:38 You're saying sartorially, World War II was the sort of pinnacle?

Horatio Gould 33:41 You have- you have to say that. You have to say that.

Fin Taylor 33:42 Well, also... And also when, when you're looking at Hitler in the '30s, people didn't have a Hitler to compare him to.

Horatio Gould 33:48 No.

Fin Taylor 33:48 So the idea of evil is-

Horatio Gould 33:50 Hitler.

Fin Taylor 33:50 ... it, it... Hitler invented that, really.

Horatio Gould 33:52 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 33:52 And also, it didn't really come in until the videos from the camps came out.

Horatio Gould 33:57 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 33:57 The kind of idea of this like, everyone comparing everything to Hitler, there being this idea of true evil.

Chris Williamson 34:03 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 34:03 And stuff like that. That just didn't really exist in the same way. Obviously, there was like religious things where it's like heretics and that sort.

Horatio Gould 34:10 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 34:11 But our modern sense of evil is all j- comes from Hitler.

Horatio Gould 34:13 And the, and the bad guy, you know, like James Bond. All the outfits.

Fin Taylor 34:17 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 34:17 That d- did it... Blofeld's a dictator.

Fin Taylor 34:19 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 34:19 Kind of cau- you know, like that whole... Culturally, we're so borne out of World War II.

Fin Taylor 34:24 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 34:24 Like action films.

Fin Taylor 34:25 But then have you seen-

Horatio Gould 34:26 And heroes.

Fin Taylor 34:26 I don't know what your, um, algorithm's like. The amount of pro-Hitler stuff is getting crazy.

Chris Williamson 34:31 Pro-Hitler stuff? I haven't seen-

Fin Taylor 34:32 Have y- you're not getting it.

Chris Williamson 34:33 I haven't seen, I haven't seen any of that.

Fin Taylor 34:34 What's on your algorithm, Chris?

Chris Williamson 34:36 Like just dog videos and... It's, it's very fluffy, mine.

Fin Taylor 34:40 Really?

Chris Williamson 34:40 I don't tend to get much of that. Like-

Horatio Gould 34:43 Boobs? Boobs?

Fin Taylor 34:44 Really?

Chris Williamson 34:44 Boobs? Uh, no, not really. Not really.

Fin Taylor 34:45 What is going on? I'm tits and Hitler, it's crazy. It's just-

Chris Williamson 34:47 Okay.

Fin Taylor 34:48 Mine's just... (laughs) The same as all of 'em.

Horatio Gould 34:49 Slaving Hitler is just it.

Fin Taylor 34:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:51 So what do you mean pro-Hitler?

Fin Taylor 34:52 Oh, it's crazy.

Horatio Gould 34:53 Amazin- uh-

Chris Williamson 34:53 There's like a whole community of stuff.

Horatio Gould 34:54 Also the Pakistani guy with the mustache.

Fin Taylor 34:56 Yeah, yeah.

Horatio Gould 34:56 He does pranks in a, in a... Oh, I love that guy. Shout out.

Chris Williamson 34:59 Okay.

Horatio Gould 34:59 I don't know what his name is.

Fin Taylor 35:00 Uh, the-

Horatio Gould 35:00 Hilarious.

Fin Taylor 35:00 It's like, what's shocking is like, uh, there's like... Hitler's speech has been translated into English. And it's not only like memes that are like, I guess kind of quite like nihilistic se- like being pro-Hitler 'cause it's edgy, whatever.

Chris Williamson 35:13 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 35:13 It's the comments. That there's a whole community-

Chris Williamson 35:15 So is it ironic or not?

Fin Taylor 35:16 No, it's br- it's br- broken past irony. It's genuinely pretty terrifying.

Chris Williamson 35:20 Okay.

Fin Taylor 35:20 So it'd be like, "We owe Germany an apology." (laughs) That would be a lot of the comments.

Chris Williamson 35:23 Is it- is it just antisemitism repackaged as pro-Hitlerism?

Fin Taylor 35:27 It's... I th- um ... I got a friend who sends me all of these 'cause we- we- it's just-

Chris Williamson 35:31 Well, that's where the algorithm is going.

Fin Taylor 35:32 Yeah, probably, yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:33 Have you considered it might just be him?

Fin Taylor 35:34 Uh, and on Twitter-

Horatio Gould 35:35 Sorry, and it's, it's not me, I should stress, it's not-

Chris Williamson 35:36 I have a friend who sat next to me in the room.

Horatio Gould 35:38 I'm not their friend. I'm not their friend.

Fin Taylor 35:39 Yeah, some, some... You've sent me some.

Horatio Gould 35:40 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 35:40 But on, on Twitter, now that Elon's taken the handbrake off-

Chris Williamson 35:44 Right.

Fin Taylor 35:44 ... it's just gone crazy, the Nazi stuff. Uh, I got sent, uh, like a three-hour documentary with like a, quite a proper voice-over, well-produced-

Horatio Gould 35:54 Oh, you were telling me about this, yeah.

Fin Taylor 35:54 Like it's like a pro-Hitler one. It opens with a misunderstood artist.

Chris Williamson 35:58 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 35:59 (laughs) A man who changed the world. So like, there is definitely... I think when you're told someone's evil and that's like the most defined, uh, kind of like truth.

Horatio Gould 36:10 Yes.

Fin Taylor 36:11 The idea that you've been lied to is thrilling for a lot of people.

Chris Williamson 36:14 Very seductive.

Fin Taylor 36:15 Very seductive, for sure. But it is, it is definitely crazy what's going online in the, in the Hitler space at the moment.

Horatio Gould 36:22 The Hitlersphere.

Fin Taylor 36:23 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 36:23 Are we in the Hitlersphere?

Fin Taylor 36:24 We're in the Hitlersphere.

Chris Williamson 36:24 You are in the-

Horatio Gould 36:25 We sure are, yeah. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 36:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:26 Orbiting the Hitlersphere.

Horatio Gould 36:27 We're the sun, I think.

Fin Taylor 36:28 Yeah.

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Fin Taylor 37:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:56 ... that.

Fin Taylor 37:57 There's, there's videos of, like, Hitler playing with his dog, trying to show his lighter side.

Horatio Gould 38:01 They are... I mean, they're great videos.

Fin Taylor 38:02 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 38:03 I really like them. Happy, there's h-

Fin Taylor 38:06 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 38:06 ... happy Hitler. You told me about the photo shoot he did, in the... Was it in the 20s?

Fin Taylor 38:10 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 38:10 There's a photo shoot. Or maybe it was the early 30s.

Fin Taylor 38:12 What, when he's trying to work out his act?

Horatio Gould 38:13 But it, but it... No, it is like a comedian

Guest (Fin Taylor or Horatio Gould) 38:15 How to do a photo shoot.

Chris Williamson 38:16 Does he do early bits? Is there any of his early material? The work i-

Fin Taylor 38:18 Well-

Chris Williamson 38:18 The work-in-progress shows of Hitler.

Fin Taylor 38:20 Sh- there's very rare, these very rare photos, basically, where Hitler's trying to work out his, like, um-

Horatio Gould 38:25 His, his image.

Fin Taylor 38:25 ... his shtick.

Horatio Gould 38:26 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 38:27 You know? 'Cause he... That, it doesn't just come-

Chris Williamson 38:28 When did he get the mustache?

Fin Taylor 38:28 ... straight out.

Chris Williamson 38:29 When does that... When does-

Fin Taylor 38:29 That's Chaplin. He's the biggest Chaplin fan in the world.

Chris Williamson 38:32 Right.

Fin Taylor 38:33 And, uh, it's hard to get at Hitler, but, uh, j- he got every Chaplin film sent to him, uh, and then in 1941, a great film, The Great Dictator, amazing Chaplin film, uh, which is a parody of Hitler during the war, made in the middle of World War II. He gets everything sent to him, and it... this got sent to him and it made fun of him, and he was heartbroken.

Horatio Gould 38:54 Devastated.

Fin Taylor 38:55 It was like, of anything-

Chris Williamson 38:55 Because of your hero, your biggest hero.

Fin Taylor 38:57 He's-

Chris Williamson 38:57 The guy who has fucking facial hair. To... Wouldn't it have been a, a real middle finger if he'd just shaved it off?

Horatio Gould 39:02 Chaplin?

Chris Williamson 39:03 No. If... Yeah. Oh, actually, that would've been-

Horatio Gould 39:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:05 ... even worse.

Fin Taylor 39:05 I mean, I feel like-

Horatio Gould 39:06 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 39:06 ... yeah, Hitler doing the middle finger, I feel he's done a lot worse. I don't think-

Horatio Gould 39:10 Which one? 'Cause, 'cause, 'cause-

Fin Taylor 39:10 I thought the Holocaust-

Horatio Gould 39:11 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 39:11 ... was the middle fi- (laughs)

Horatio Gould 39:11 Yeah. Yeah, 'cause for that, that's worse than that, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 39:13 Was that aimed at Chaplin, the Holocaust?

Fin Taylor 39:15 No, I guess not. I guess not.

Chris Williamson 39:17 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 39:17 Fuck you, Charlie.

Fin Taylor 39:19 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 39:19 Childish!

Fin Taylor 39:19 I'll teach you.

Horatio Gould 39:20 False!

Chris Williamson 39:20 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 39:21 Yeah. No. I don't think, I don't think we can say that hot take.

Chris Williamson 39:24 No.

Horatio Gould 39:24 Chaplin caused the Holocaust.

Chris Williamson 39:26 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 39:26 It's the thumbnail title of this.

Fin Taylor 39:28 It's what you want now.

Chris Williamson 39:29 Uh, yeah, that, that might work. Um...

Horatio Gould 39:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:32 Yeah, I don't know. The, the... trying to repurpose or trying to reinvent Hitler's position and what he stood for seems like-

Fin Taylor 39:40 Well, it's ver- it's fringe now, but h- all these things that I... were fringe five years ago is coming into the mainstream, so I wouldn't be surprised if-

Horatio Gould 39:46 Well, it's, it's more that niches are getting bigger, right?

Fin Taylor 39:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 39:48 It's that niches are big now.

Chris Williamson 39:49 Mm.

Horatio Gould 39:50 'Cause of the, 'cause of the fragmentation.

Chris Williamson 39:51 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 39:52 Um-

Chris Williamson 39:52 Because the echo chambers actually start to grow, 'cause they don't get-

Horatio Gould 39:55 Well, it's more, it's more that if, if the market, digitally, is everyone, then a niche of that market, a percentage-

Chris Williamson 39:59 Is still quite large.

Horatio Gould 40:00 ... is a massive amount of people.

Fin Taylor 40:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:02 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 40:02 You know?

Chris Williamson 40:02 It's enough to hold a community together.

Horatio Gould 40:03 Exactly. Totally.

Fin Taylor 40:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:05 Wow. Yeah, I, uh, I loved that John Lile book because all of the little obscure bits and pieces of stories that were in history. There was this thing I learned... You were talking about the Japanese before. At some point, the CIO, the OSS, tried to scare the Japanese by putting, uh, luminous paint. Foxes are an o- a bad omen in Japan, apparently.

Fin Taylor 40:28 Right.

Chris Williamson 40:28 So they tried to scare them with glow-in-the-dark, what they thought would be foxes, but they couldn't get enough foxes, so I think they used something... and not skunks. They used some other type of creature and then they put them in water and found that they washed up both dead and the wa- the stuff had been, uh, the-

Fin Taylor 40:45 Washed off.

Chris Williamson 40:46 ... luminous paint, yeah, it'd been washed off them.

Fin Taylor 40:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:48 So then they put a huge fox head out with a PA system and broadcast, like, sounds. It's crazy what they tried to do-

Fin Taylor 40:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:55 ... to... in a desperate attempt to just psyop. Like, the early versions of psyops-

Fin Taylor 41:00 Mm.

Chris Williamson 41:01 ... really, like, it was wet clay-

Fin Taylor 41:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:03 ... that people were playing with.

Fin Taylor 41:04 Well, the, the... It was like a trad- they'd tried everything and they were like, "We're gonna have to put a nuclear bomb on them, aren't we? We done the big screaming fox head."

Chris Williamson 41:11 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 41:11 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 41:11 "That didn't work."

Chris Williamson 41:12 Tried to trans Hitler.

Horatio Gould 41:13 Well, that... But that's like the... in the-

Fin Taylor 41:14 We tried everything.

Chris Williamson 41:15 It's-

Horatio Gould 41:15 In the Aztecs, do you remember? In the Aztec series when the-

Fin Taylor 41:18 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 41:18 ... they're (laughs) holding out against Cortes and conquistadors.

Fin Taylor 41:20 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 41:20 Their, their version of the nuclear bomb is a guy dressed as a man.

Fin Taylor 41:23 This is the last-

Horatio Gould 41:23 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 41:23 This is like the... but when the Aztecs-

Horatio Gould 41:25 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 41:25 ... were doing their, like, final stand against the-

Horatio Gould 41:27 The ultimate deterrent.

Fin Taylor 41:28 ... m- uh-

Horatio Gould 41:28 You don't want to press the button but you do, and it's a guy dressed as a massive owl.

Fin Taylor 41:32 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 41:32 Who comes out and goes, "Whoo!"

Fin Taylor 41:34 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 41:34 And they all just shoot him.

Fin Taylor 41:35 And they're like, "We don't wanna have to use this-"

Horatio Gould 41:37 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 41:37 "... but you've forced our hands."

Horatio Gould 41:39 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 41:40 And there's just someone going like-

Horatio Gould 41:41 And then the owl guy comes up, "Whoo!"

Fin Taylor 41:42 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 41:42 And the Spanish just kill him, and they're like-

Fin Taylor 41:44 Ah. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 41:44 ... "Okay, right, well..." It's the same, the equivalent of dropping the nuclear bomb but it bounces off-

Fin Taylor 41:49 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 41:49 ... into the sea, and it's like, "Oh, fuck."

Fin Taylor 41:52 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 41:52 "Did it work?"

Fin Taylor 41:52 Or the nuclear bomb, you drop out a plane a guy dressed as an owl.

Horatio Gould 41:54 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 41:55 Whoop, whoop. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 41:57 (laughs) You just drop on Hiroshima,

Horatio Gould 42:01 yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:01 I know nothing about the Aztecs. Like, what-

Fin Taylor 42:04 The one... The only thing I'll say about that is the misconception-

Horatio Gould 42:07 Five-part series in history.

Fin Taylor 42:07 ... is it... it should be viewed more as a civil war than, like, a colonizing thing.

Chris Williamson 42:11 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 42:11 'Cause it was like... There was... Everyone talks about it as like 600 conquistadors-

Horatio Gould 42:15 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:15 ... who took over all the Aztecs. It was actually two Aztecs that... who, the Mexica, was a rival clan with... who were fucking over loads of other-

Horatio Gould 42:22 Can you remember the name of the rival clan? I remember there were a lot of them.

Fin Taylor 42:24 Tlacht-

Horatio Gould 42:25 Tlach- Tlach- Tlachcarlans.

Fin Taylor 42:27 Tlachcarlans.

Horatio Gould 42:29 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:29 Tlachca- carlans.

Horatio Gould 42:29 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:29 Right?

Horatio Gould 42:29 Tlachcarlans.

Fin Taylor 42:30 And then they basically allied with the Spanish.... uh, to, uh, take over the Aztecs. So wha- what's missing is that it wasn't 600 conquistadors versus all the Aztecs. It was 600 conquistadors with thousands of other Chachalans.

Chris Williamson 42:46 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 42:47 Versus- Versus a guy in a massive owl suit.

Fin Taylor 42:49 I mean yeah, yeah, with an owl suit.

Horatio Gould 42:50 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:50 They had guns and-

Chris Williamson 42:52 One guy had an owl suit.

Horatio Gould 42:52 Yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:54 But-

Chris Williamson 42:54 Were the, were the Aztecs as brutal as-

Fin Taylor 42:57 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 42:57 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 42:58 Yeah. (laughs) To be fair, it was pretty nuts.

Horatio Gould 43:00 Similar to the kind of, you think, you know, the seppuku thing with Japan, that's a stereotype. Oh no, it's not. Similar to the, oh, well the, the human sacrifice. Oh, they fucking loved it.

Fin Taylor 43:07 What was the Festival of Blood thing? I was-

Chris Williamson 43:08 What was the ti- what was the timing of this? What, what-

Fin Taylor 43:10 This was, to be fair, 'cause you always, when you think of Aztecs-

Horatio Gould 43:12 Early 16th century.

Fin Taylor 43:12 ... it feels ancient.

Chris Williamson 43:13 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 43:13 It's-

Fin Taylor 43:14 It's medieval.

Chris Williamson 43:15 Right.

Horatio Gould 43:15 Well, it's a, it's a, it's a-

Fin Taylor 43:18 Their cultural-

Horatio Gould 43:19 It's a meeting, it's a meeting of worlds, the Aztecs.

Fin Taylor 43:20 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 43:20 And it, it's basically an Iron Age civilization-

Fin Taylor 43:22 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 43:22 ... with a kind of early modern European one. That's the-

Fin Taylor 43:24 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 43:25 So, they had ... Was it, is it 1516 they were, say, caught as, uh-

Fin Taylor 43:29 But they didn't have iron, they didn't have steel. They did sort of have wheels, but they didn't have wheels. They didn't have any wheels that they'd actually use.

Horatio Gould 43:35 They'd thought of a wheel, but they hadn't made a wheel.

Fin Taylor 43:36 They'd made a w- they'd l- that was wheels on kids' toys.

Horatio Gould 43:39 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 43:39 But they'd never thought to use that to carry stuff.

Chris Williamson 43:40 Proto-wheels. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 43:41 But they, it's funny 'cause they had the, they would chop people's heads off the top of these pyramids, and the human sacrifice, rip their heart out, chop their head off, and then the head would roll down the steps. And they didn't quite link that rolling with, with the wheel-

Fin Taylor 43:52 Yeah, it was interesting, like the physics was there.

Horatio Gould 43:54 But they did invent Slinkys.

Fin Taylor 43:56 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 43:56 No, that's, that's a joke.

Fin Taylor 43:57 Well it, im- yeah. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 43:57 That's not true. That's where our podcasts ...

Fin Taylor 44:00 Yeah, we can't give them the credit for inventing Slinkys. You gotta-

Horatio Gould 44:02 We don't know. We don't know who invented-

Fin Taylor 44:03 We have to just say. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 44:03 Do you know who invented the Slinky?

Fin Taylor 44:04 I don't know.

Horatio Gould 44:05 No. We can't know.

Fin Taylor 44:06 I imagine it was an American in the '70s-

Horatio Gould 44:07 We can't, we can't know.

Fin Taylor 44:08 ... is my feel, feeling.

Horatio Gould 44:09 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 44:09 Um, but the, what was the Festival of Blood? It was like the, the crazy one.

Horatio Gould 44:12 It was basically a bank holiday festival where they killed-

Fin Taylor 44:14 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 44:14 ... like 80,000 people.

Fin Taylor 44:15 So yeah, like day off work, day off school, uh-

Chris Williamson 44:17 But what, like criminals?

Fin Taylor 44:19 Uh, no, it'd be ri- it would be the Ch- Clacharlans, these guys.

Horatio Gould 44:22 Prisoners from the Clachar- So you, if you got, if you got captured-

Fin Taylor 44:24 They were not like killing you in battle. They're like capturing you-

Horatio Gould 44:27 They, they capture you-

Fin Taylor 44:27 ... and then chopping you up.

Horatio Gould 44:28 ... to then sacrifice you to their gods.

Chris Williamson 44:30 Okay.

Fin Taylor 44:30 'Cause also their form of battle was more like a Step Up dance battle.

Horatio Gould 44:34 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 44:34 Like it was a bit more ritualistic. So that's why the Spanish, when they're just like shooting them, it's like, "Oh, I thought it was just more like a-"

Horatio Gould 44:39 That's why the owl guy is the, the end thing.

Fin Taylor 44:42 Y- yeah.

Horatio Gould 44:43 'Cause it's a dance off, and you go, "Well, I can't compete."

Fin Taylor 44:43 I thought it was more like bod- body popping.

Horatio Gould 44:45 "I can't, I can't compete with a guy body popping just as an owl."

Fin Taylor 44:48 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 44:48 "This dance off is over."

Fin Taylor 44:48 There's one guy doing the worm.

Horatio Gould 44:50 Yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 44:51 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 44:51 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 44:52 Uh, but yeah, they, they had killed like 80,000 people at once. And there were like just the, the stench of blood was just extraordinary. There was, it ... Blood everywhere.

Horatio Gould 45:00 But they're also doing, they're doing it, they don't have steel. So that they're doing it with-

Fin Taylor 45:04 What, obsidian.

Horatio Gould 45:05 ... obsidian, glass-

Chris Williamson 45:06 What's that?

Horatio Gould 45:06 ... like shards.

Fin Taylor 45:06 It's like a rock-

Horatio Gould 45:07 Black glass.

Fin Taylor 45:08 ... that you, yeah, so-

Horatio Gould 45:08 Volcanic sort of-

Fin Taylor 45:09 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 45:09 ... rock, that you, sort of like glass, and it's very sharp.

Chris Williamson 45:11 Oh, and you chip-

Fin Taylor 45:12 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 45:13 Yeah, you shave it.

Fin Taylor 45:13 Like, sort of like f- a flint type thing, but-

Chris Williamson 45:15 But super sharp.

Fin Taylor 45:16 ... super sharp. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 45:17 They, so they're cutting into the breast bone, and pulling them out-

Chris Williamson 45:20 After the head?

Horatio Gould 45:21 No. I, I, so you see that, and then they-

Fin Taylor 45:23 Fucking owl!

Horatio Gould 45:24 And then they have a big ax, an obsidian ax, I think they put in as well.

Fin Taylor 45:26 Do you get, so if your heart gets taken out, do you get like a couple of free pumps?

Chris Williamson 45:30 Uh!

Fin Taylor 45:30 Where you get to see it for a second?

Horatio Gould 45:31 Well, no, I think the blood's still going round. Um, but it's like heads g- cut off, there's still a, there's still a bit of consciousness-

Fin Taylor 45:37 Well, wait, w-

Horatio Gould 45:37 ... for a few seconds, isn't there?

Fin Taylor 45:39 N-

Horatio Gould 45:40 Or is that chickens?

Fin Taylor 45:41 No, you can't ... If your head's cut-

Horatio Gould 45:42 No, you can. You, no-

Fin Taylor 45:43 No, no, no.

Horatio Gould 45:43 ... no, because then-

Fin Taylor 45:44 You're telling me, if you chop my head off, my, my POV, like I'll see the carpet as I'm falling towards it?

Horatio Gould 45:51 Yeah, 'cause it, 'cause there's a lag, right?

Fin Taylor 45:54 Wow.

Horatio Gould 45:54 Again, who knows?

Fin Taylor 45:55 Can you get one of your science guys on?

Horatio Gould 45:56 Do you have anyone good here?

Chris Williamson 45:57 Brian Johnson, Brian Johnson on there then.

Fin Taylor 45:58 Can we get, get your fucking head guys on this?

Chris Williamson 46:00 (laughs) Head guy.

Horatio Gould 46:01 No, the, the real test of the Brian Johnson is if he, someone cuts his head off, and he-

Chris Williamson 46:05 How long does he stay alive for?

Fin Taylor 46:06 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 46:06 How long does he stay alive?

Fin Taylor 46:06 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 46:06 'Cause if it's longer than if they cut my head off, then fair, fair play.

Fin Taylor 46:09 Yeah. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 46:09 Fair play.

Chris Williamson 46:10 (laughs) You getting-

Fin Taylor 46:11 Have you had Brian Johnson on this?

Chris Williamson 46:12 I have, yeah.

Horatio Gould 46:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:13 Yeah, it was once a while ago.

Fin Taylor 46:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:15 He's a sweetie. He's a really sweet guy. Really nice.

Fin Taylor 46:17 I tell you what, I, I di- I did, I was, I did say it'd be funny if he got hit by a bus, just 'cause like it, it comedically-

Horatio Gould 46:23 Na- narrative, comedically

Fin Taylor 46:23 Yeah, if he died at 62 'cause he got run over, it is funny. But, uh, it is nice to have someone nosing about in that sphere.

Horatio Gould 46:30 Someone's gotta be doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 46:30 Do you know, it's nice to have just a person doing it.

Horatio Gould 46:32 The way

Horatio Gould 46:33 to think-

Fin Taylor 46:33 'Cause people really don't like it.

Chris Williamson 46:34 The way to think about Brian Johnson is that he is like a scout in an army. And you don't want an army that's filled with scouts. And I also probably, myself, don't wanna be the guy that tries to climb up to the top of that mountain to see if there's something interesting-

Horatio Gould 46:45 Just your thought, yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:46 ... over the far side. And I'm like, but I'll happily have him go up and come back and tell us, "Let me tell you what I found up there," if he comes back.

Fin Taylor 46:52 He's nosy as hell.

Chris Williamson 46:53 But he did say-

Fin Taylor 46:54 He's digging around. It's like, you shouldn't be digging around in there, like, "What are you looking for?"

Chris Williamson 46:56 Yeah. He did, yeah, it's like trying to change the source code OS-

Fin Taylor 46:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:59 ... of your Windows computer.

Fin Taylor 47:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:00 Windows XP. You're like, mate, you're gonna break something in there. Uh, but he did, he did tweet not long ago, he said, "I guarantee I will die in the most hilarious and ironic way possible."

Fin Taylor 47:08 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:08 So-

Horatio Gould 47:09 Well, it's just cosmically-

Fin Taylor 47:10 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 47:10 ... you know. There's ju- it's, it would be too funny-

Chris Williamson 47:12 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 47:13 ... to just slip on a banana-

Fin Taylor 47:14 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 47:14 ... and hit your head. It's j- just funny.

Fin Taylor 47:15 'Cause the, the oldest person in the world right now is British, Ethel. Ethel Caserin?

Horatio Gould 47:18 Uh, and I think we are starting a cam- E- Ethel Caserin, we're starting a campaign.

Fin Taylor 47:22 So sh-

Horatio Gould 47:22 She has to overtake the record which is held by a Frenchwoman.

Fin Taylor 47:25 Yeah, yeah.

Horatio Gould 47:25 Uh, there's another campaign we're starting on our podcast-

Fin Taylor 47:27 I think she's been cooking the books though, the Frenchwoman.

Horatio Gould 47:29 Yeah. There's a campaign we're starting on our podcast to get Ethel Caserin past, what is it, 100-

Fin Taylor 47:31 So Ch- E- Ethel Caserin's I think on 113?

Horatio Gould 47:34 She's 127, I believe. No.

Fin Taylor 47:36 No, no.

Horatio Gould 47:37 Is that the oldest?

Fin Taylor 47:37 No, the, the, the, the French one is 119. That's the oldest.

Horatio Gould 47:41 Right.

Fin Taylor 47:41 So Ethel is 113.

Chris Williamson 47:42 Is the French one still alive?

Fin Taylor 47:43 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 47:44 No.

Fin Taylor 47:45 No, she died.

Chris Williamson 47:46 Right. So that-

Fin Taylor 47:47 So, so Ethel we, so-

Chris Williamson 47:47 ... that's the finish line?

Fin Taylor 47:48 No, so like we got, we gotta keep Ethel alive-

Chris Williamson 47:50 'Cause if they were both racing at the same time, that would be, 'cause you could just ...

Fin Taylor 47:54 What take, take out ...

Chris Williamson 47:55 The old one.

Fin Taylor 47:56 And it's an easy one. You can fucking-

Chris Williamson 47:57 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 47:58 ... one slap to the face-

Chris Williamson 47:58 Strong breeze.

Fin Taylor 47:59 ... and she's gone. Yeah. Um, no, no, so we, we, we, uh, a- any, if you see Ethel, like, uh, like marathon runners on the 20th mile, you know, cheering-

Horatio Gould 48:09 Go on, darling, you got this.

Fin Taylor 48:10 Bott- bottle of water. You got this, come on.

Horatio Gould 48:11 Gi- give her some fish and some companionship.

Fin Taylor 48:13 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 48:13 Fishing mates, isn't it?

Fin Taylor 48:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Horatio Gould 48:14 Give her some blue zones as well.

Fin Taylor 48:15 All the blue zones stuff. What is funny though is you got the Brian Johnson thing. It's gonna be interesting to see if he outlives-

Horatio Gould 48:20 Yeah, the blue zone. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 48:21 ... a, an olive oil farmer in Sardinia.

Horatio Gould 48:23 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 48:23 He'll be just some guy, you know?

Chris Williamson 48:25 Smoking.

Horatio Gould 48:26 Call-

Fin Taylor 48:26 Giovanni.

Horatio Gould 48:27 'Cause, because-

Fin Taylor 48:27 He's just like, this old Italian guy is gonna outlive-

Horatio Gould 48:30 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 48:30 ... Brian Johnson.

Horatio Gould 48:31 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 48:31 He's gonna, he's-

Horatio Gould 48:31 He's drink- he's drinking olive oil and just smoking, and having fish, and-

Fin Taylor 48:34 Eh?

Horatio Gould 48:34 He's got mates. Supposedly it's his mates, that's what everyone says.

Fin Taylor 48:36 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 48:37 You know what else I think is?

Chris Williamson 48:37 Fascinating, Bri- Brian's a good example of this. There's certain people who c- sort of capture a-... cultural niche because he- when you're thinking about longevity, biohacking, kind of the modern world of that, you think Bryan Johnson.

Fin Taylor 48:52 Empathy with Hitler, yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:53 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 48:54 You think Finn Taylor. (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:57 But the- it kind of speaks to the fact that there was some subculture beneath the surface that needed a figurehead, not- maybe too dissimilar to Hitler.

Fin Taylor 49:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:05 Um, and whenever that-

Fin Taylor 49:06 Where's the health Hitler?

Chris Williamson 49:07 Whenever that person sort of comes up, think- look, for better or worse, like a- a Tate or a Dan Bilzerian or something was- there was obviously some s- t- m- story going on, some subculture thing happening. And then there's this person that's the tip of the spear-

Fin Taylor 49:21 Right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:22 ... that is like the epitome of this. They're like the distillation of all of this stuff and I think Bryan Johnson's kind of the-

Fin Taylor 49:27 He's emblematic.

Chris Williamson 49:28 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fin Taylor 49:29 Bonnie Blue.

Chris Williamson 49:30 Bonnie- Bonnie Blue, yeah.

Fin Taylor 49:31 Emblematic.

Chris Williamson 49:31 The end result of sort of the modern sexual liberation stuff.

Fin Taylor 49:35 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 49:36 Yeah, but then I- I tried to watch a bit of the Andrew Tate, Bonnie Blue podcast for research because we had it on our other show.

Fin Taylor 49:43 Hmm.

Horatio Gould 49:43 And, uh, I just thought this is like a fucking GTA cut scene.

Chris Williamson 49:48 (laughs)

Fin Taylor 49:48 (laughs)

Horatio Gould 49:48 Like, neither of these people are real. Like, it's just not real and- and I don't know if it's people, their followers that are like, they- they're playing along with the not real of it and- or they're actually taking it real.

Fin Taylor 50:01 But because if you-

Horatio Gould 50:01 It's just- they're not- neither of them are real.

Chris Williamson 50:02 Do you know the idea of k-

Fin Taylor 50:03 Because if you've grown up online, the lines between irony and sincerity has just become completely blurred.

Horatio Gould 50:07 Yeah, it's all a mess, isn't it?

Fin Taylor 50:08 So it's sort of like-

Chris Williamson 50:08 But no one's, uh- very few people are earnest now-

Fin Taylor 50:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:11 ... on the internet, right? They're- their sincerity is basically like-

Fin Taylor 50:13 Yeah, it's gone.

Chris Williamson 50:14 ... non-existent. Um, do you know the idea of kayfabe? Do you know this from professional wrestling?

Horatio Gould 50:18 No.

Chris Williamson 50:19 Okay, so it's just basically the- the-

Horatio Gould 50:20 I have a- I have a mortgage, Chris, so any-

Fin Taylor 50:22 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 50:22 ... any professional wrestling stuff, I don't-

Chris Williamson 50:24 Yeah, that's true.

Horatio Gould 50:24 ... I will default if I engage with it.

Chris Williamson 50:26 Yeah. Um, basically the idea that sort of the hyper real, like the fake real, the sort of Trump- Trumpian like, uh, uh, meta story.

Fin Taylor 50:34 Mm-hmm.

Horatio Gould 50:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:35 People just sort of buy into that and they kind of don't care.

Horatio Gould 50:37 Hypernormalization, that Adam Curtis film.

Fin Taylor 50:39 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 50:39 You seen that?

Chris Williamson 50:40 No, what's that?

Horatio Gould 50:40 It's very good.

Fin Taylor 50:41 You- you'd like Adam- you'd like Adam Curtis.

Horatio Gould 50:42 You'd love Adam Curtis. I mean, I- you should have him on. He doesn't- he doesn't do that.

Chris Williamson 50:45 I- I- I don't think I'm super familiar with him.

Horatio Gould 50:47 He makes these- he makes these films-

Fin Taylor 50:48 These documentaries.

Horatio Gould 50:49 He's a documentary maker.

Fin Taylor 50:50 Where he says it-

Horatio Gould 50:50 And the fact is-

Fin Taylor 50:50 ... all got a little bit strange.

Horatio Gould 50:52 Yeah. So he makes these- he's this guy that's allowed-

Fin Taylor 50:55 British.

Horatio Gould 50:55 Yeah, British guy, he's allowed into the- the BBC archives and he just lives there like a hobbit for years-

Fin Taylor 50:59 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 50:59 ... going through all this archive footage.

Fin Taylor 51:00 Someone bring some food down to Adam Curtis actually.

Horatio Gould 51:02 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 51:02 We need to check on him.

Horatio Gould 51:03 Yeah.

Fin Taylor 51:03 'Cause he's been down there for about 15 years.

Horatio Gould 51:04 And he builds these incredible films, they're all on the iPlayer, and, uh, it's all used with documentary foot- stock footage and then he sort of voi- tells this story of- of-

Fin Taylor 51:15 "Thatcher thought she was unleashing Britain's potential. She was actually unleashing something much darker." (laughs)

Horatio Gould 51:19 Bonnie Blue, yeah. That would be it though and- and it's the-

Chris Williamson 51:22 So he's like the British Ken Burns in that way.

Horatio Gould 51:24 Sort of but-

Fin Taylor 51:24 Yeah, but it's much more like-

Horatio Gould 51:26 ... much more, he's kind of enchanting and-

Fin Taylor 51:27 ... avant garde and like the music's more hypnot- hypnotic. It's much more kind of like-

Horatio Gould 51:32 Esoteric.

Fin Taylor 51:32 ... in some ways emotional.

Chris Williamson 51:33 A little bit psychedelic in that way.

Fin Taylor 51:34 Yeah, definitely. I don't-

Horatio Gould 51:35 Because Ken Burns Vietnam is totemic and amazing. Ken Burns Civil War, I cannot, I can't do it, it's too-

Chris Williamson 51:40 I couldn't get through it either.

Horatio Gould 51:41 It's just the- the camera on the pi- paintings.

Fin Taylor 51:44 Yeah. Yeah.

Horatio Gould 51:44 Ah-blah-blah-blah-blah-blah. I can't do it, but, um, anyway that Vietnam thing-

Fin Taylor 51:47 And for- I think Americans love that shit, but I think they're not Americans.

Chris Williamson 51:49 I think that Vietnam series might be-

Fin Taylor 51:51 That's as good as it gets.

Horatio Gould 51:52 Yes.

Chris Williamson 51:52 I think that might be the best.

Horatio Gould 51:53 It's phenomenal.

Chris Williamson 51:55 And it goes on and on, and th- this one's an hour and a half, and this one's two hours, and this one's-

Fin Taylor 52:00 The key thing I've realized if you're a documentary maker like Adam Curtis and Ken Burn- Burns, you got to make the people who are watching it feel clever.

Horatio Gould 52:08 Mm-hmm.

Fin Taylor 52:08 And that's what Ken Burns and Adam Curtis do really well. I watch and I go like, "Well, I'm brilliant." Why? Why-

Horatio Gould 52:12 And then you ask- particularly with Adam Curtis because he- he will always tell a story about history and politics that you haven't thought of and I guess that opens the-

Fin Taylor 52:19 And you feel really smart and someone asks you about it and you're like, "I don't know."

Horatio Gould 52:22 It opens the door to like, "Here's what's really going- here's what's really going on."

Chris Williamson 52:26 Who knows?

Horatio Gould 52:26 There's a bit of that-

Fin Taylor 52:27 Right.

Horatio Gould 52:27 ... amongst his fan base definitely, but they are- they make you think about things in a way that no other documentary can do.

Fin Taylor 52:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:32 Um-

Fin Taylor 52:32 But it makes you feel like you've come up with it. (laughs)

Horatio Gould 52:34 It makes me feel like- it makes me feel like you've like drunk the world and you can see everything in your life and taste it.

Fin Taylor 52:38 And if anyone asks you what it's about, "Uh, fucking music playing in that room."

Horatio Gould 52:42 There was- there was a lake, there was a lake where they did a deal and then that's why Bin Laden exists.

Fin Taylor 52:45 Oh, fuck.

Horatio Gould 52:46 Bin Laden was born out of a lake.

Fin Taylor 52:47 I'm an idiot. I'm fit.

Horatio Gould 52:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:49 In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. If your sleep's not dialed, taking ages to nod off, you're waking up at random times and feeling groggy in the morning, Momentous' sleep packs, how did I miss both of those, are here to help. They're not your typical knock you out supplement overloaded with melatonin, just the most evidence-based ingredients at perfect doses to help you fall asleep more quickly, stay asleep throughout the night, and wake up feeling more rested and revitalized in the morning, which is why I take these things every single night and why I trust Momentous with my life, or at least with my sleep, because they make the highest quality supplements on the planet. What you read on the label is what's in the product and absolutely nothing else. And if you're still unsure, they've got a 30 day money back guarantee so you can buy it completely risk free, use it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. Plus, they ship internationally. Right now you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com/modernwisdom and MODERNWISDOM at checkout.

Chris Williamson 53:58 I still don't know why Vietnam started and I've watched that Ken Burns documentary three times.

Fin Taylor 54:00 Yeah, that's what I mean. You watch and you're like, "Well, I'm brilliant." (laughs)

Horatio Gould 54:04 Well, many ways to start, well, let's not get into it.

Fin Taylor 54:07 No, it's a-

Horatio Gould 54:07 We'll do Vietnam some point.

Fin Taylor 54:08 It's a quagmire.

Horatio Gould 54:08 Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 54:10 (laughs) Uh, but it was interesting as you were saying how no one-

Horatio Gould 54:12 It's the French fault.

Fin Taylor 54:13 It was the French's fault. Uh, it was interesting you were saying that earnestness has gone. You- I'd consider you quite an earnest person.

Chris Williamson 54:18 I think I am, yeah.

Fin Taylor 54:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:20 I have a problem with ironic speech, too much ironic speech.

Horatio Gould 54:23 Oh, we don't have that problem.

Fin Taylor 54:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:24 (laughs) I imagine. Well, comedians.

Horatio Gould 54:25 We have the opposite problem.

Fin Taylor 54:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:26 Yeah, to meet more honesty.

Fin Taylor 54:27 I've got ironic syndrome I think. I think it's a syndrome now.

Horatio Gould 54:29 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:29 But even that, I don't mind, like it's, uh, the internet show that you guys do, Thinnest of the Internet.

Fin Taylor 54:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:35 Like the whole thing is like meta and there's jokes on jokes and it's- but it's- it's-

Fin Taylor 54:38 But you're one of the best guests, if not the best guest-

Horatio Gould 54:41 Yeah. Yeah.

Fin Taylor 54:41 ... on the show by the way.

Chris Williamson 54:42 Why? You just-

Horatio Gould 54:43 Your reactions.

Fin Taylor 54:43 Yeah.

Horatio Gould 54:44 I think that people laugh-

Fin Taylor 54:45 You came into it with a-

Chris Williamson 54:46 People laughed at how I laughed.

Horatio Gould 54:48 It was a weird laugh.

54:49 Yeah. But I was trying to not interrupt too much 'cause you're still talking.

54:53 Yeah. Yeah, no, yeah.

54:54 And if I'm c-c-coring throughout the whole thing, I was like, "Okay, I'll try and be, like, gracious." I was trying to be, like, gracious about, like, not exploding all the time.

55:02 No, it's very, you've, you've cared a lot-

55:03 Like.

55:04 That's sweet.

55:05 ... us getting a good show.

55:06 Yeah.

55:06 And that really helped, I think.

55:07 Really helps.

55:08 So.

55:08 Yeah, it's kind of a cult-

55:08 And I think also this world's the funniest to write jokes about.

55:11 Yeah.

55:11 The kind of manners-

55:12 Really?

55:12 Oh, yeah. 'Cause every guest we have on Internet is to r- it's fundamentally actually is to open up a world of jokes.

55:18 Yeah.

55:18 Bonnie Blue.

55:19 Distill down what's going on here.

55:19 It's not about Bonnie Blue, it's about let's do things about OnlyFans.

55:23 OnlyFans.

55:23 And stuff like that.

55:24 Yeah. Yeah.

55:24 You know, we have chefs on.

55:25 Wine culture, or...

55:25 Yeah, wine culture. But this is what I've been interested in for so long, this whole world, and it just opens up anything motivational, anything kind of, the kind of-

55:35 Well, I think part of the reason it works so well is that, uh, you could laugh at it all, and I think that punctures the sincerity and the earnestness and the control that comes through in, like, clips of this and your other clips.

55:47 Mm-hmm.

55:47 A friend of mine actually was like, "Oh, yeah, I love that episode," because I'd ha- I'd got those guys' clips and I thought, "Oh, fuck off, who's that guy?"

55:52 Mm-hmm.

55:52 And then I saw the show and I was like, "Oh, fair play. He seems like a really nice bloke."

55:55 Doesn't take himself too seriously.

55:56 And that's where the show actually, Finn vs. The Internet, is best is when we had it with M Dot as well.

56:01 Some people were quite extra.

56:02 And people were like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense." It's like people, people think, they come to it-

56:04 Yeah.

56:04 ... thinking, "Oh, good, they're gonna tear this guy. I hate this guy."

56:07 Mm-hmm.

56:07 And then they see how they're laughing along and they're aware of the absurdity of what they do.

56:12 Oh, so you can humanize anybody.

56:14 Well, that's basically it, yeah.

56:14 Maybe. It's dangerous.

56:16 And I think what's tough about Bonnie was that, like, I knew, I knew we weren't gonna get the same kind of reactions from her that we got from-

56:23 No.

56:23 ... you or M Dot, but I also thought if there's even a chance she submits to the silliness-

56:29 Mm-hmm.

56:29 ... and even just engages with the fact that, like, all morals aside, the absurdity of what she's done, it is absurd. The numbers are hilarious. If she even submits to, like, laugh along with that, it would be amazing.

56:42 Yeah.

56:42 And obviously it will get views because she's, uh, she's very current.

56:45 Mm-hmm.

56:45 Um, but I just thought, "Oh, there's a chance we'd get her to kind of laugh at it." And I don't think she could because I think she's such a, she has these-

56:53 She's done so many-

56:54 ... s- sticks.

56:54 ... of these interviews, she's got, like, a shtick.

56:55 She has these schticks and she puts up a guard and she's, and she's well out to-

56:57 She does get...

56:57 Yeah.

56:58 That's her protection mechanism.

56:59 Yeah.

56:59 She's got stock phrases.

57:00 Yeah.

57:00 I mean, she's got a soundboard of things she says.

57:02 Yeah, yeah. "If you, if you were Bonnie Blue, you'd-"

57:03 "I'm not traumatized, I'm a feminist, I'm the real suffragette." (choking sound) That's her soundboard.

57:07 Yeah.

57:08 That she's flashing all the time. Um, but, but yeah, so i- i- it's always a, it's so, so funny for a show that is so, like, it's expensive to make, it's so stressful to make. Mm-hmm.

57:19 We write it for weeks before we film it.

57:21 Yeah. People think it's like a podcast but it's we write phrases.

57:23 And we have these two, two-hour window with a guest, we gotta get everything we think is funny about that guest.

57:26 It is, uh, it is a real... I, I felt the pressure.

57:29 Yeah, it's a high-

57:30 Me, and I, there was no pressure on me.

57:31 Yeah. It's a high-stakes thing.

57:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

57:33 And it all ultimately, if it's a good episode or not, rests on whether the guest is, like, up for it or not.

57:38 Is in a good mood. 'Cause if we've worked ages on a joke, like, there'll be the four of us, Paddy, Young, Vittorio, and us two, we'll, we'll... If we really care about a joke, you're, you're in the room, and sometimes the guest can trample it, doesn't get the right reaction, and it's just, the timing-

57:52 You tried to get, you tried to get me to say the word men.

57:55 Oh, fuck, yeah.

57:56 Yeah.

57:56 The barbershop quartet. Yeah.

57:57 That wasn't me trying to be awkward.

57:58 No.

57:58 I was just trying to-

57:59 No, you, you were probably just really confused. Yeah.

58:01 Yeah, I was like, because you were waiting to-

58:03 We had to get the joke out.

58:03 ... begin this thing.

58:04 Yeah.

58:04 And I didn't say the word men, and I was like, "Well, it's g- you know, guys." You know, it's like young dudes. And you were like...

58:12 What? It's the opposite of a woman. (laughs)

58:14 (laughs) Yeah. But it is that, it's like this, it's such a stupid show in so many ways. Well, obviously it's a stupid show, but to make it, it's so stupid.

58:22 Mm-hmm.

58:22 Because it, you know, and it's par- not that I'd ever do it on TV, 'cause I don't think it would work.

58:27 Mm-hmm.

58:27 But part of the reason that it wouldn't work on TV is that, um, it's just too high-stakes.

58:32 Yeah.

58:32 Like, if you're up-

58:33 And too high-risk. Then it's gonna-

58:34 Too high-risk. And not, not just-

58:36 It's too, too much of a noble medium compared to-

58:38 Well, it's not just that the guest might walk out, it's that really you have to get everything in one take.

58:43 Mm.

58:43 Sort of.

58:43 Have you had anyone walk out? Yeah, they did.

58:45 M Dot, M Dot tried to, and then there were so many cameras in the way that he couldn't get out. (laughs)

58:49 (laughs)

58:49 But then I also think he was sort of playing along.

58:50 Yeah, yeah. He, he was good.

58:51 And he knew.

58:51 He seemed like a really good sport.

58:53 Yeah, he's great.

58:54 He's great.

58:54 I love, I love him. I mean...

58:56 I, I, to, I tell you what, he charmed us.

58:58 Yeah, he did.

58:58 He really charmed us.

58:58 Yeah. Did you do, 'cause we were messaging about this, did you go and do some in America?

59:03 No, we, so we- we've just come back after-

59:06 I would love to... I think you could get Brian John- I think we could easily get Brian Johnson in there.

59:08 Oh, Finn as well, I think, F- the, F- Finn's character is built for Americans. I think Americans take themselves more seriously.

59:13 Yeah.

59:14 And I just think, like-

59:15 There's so many people that are right.

59:16 I think the clash will be much, much-

59:17 Do you know Aubrey Marcus?

59:18 No.

59:19 Owner of On Nit, he founded On Nit with, uh, Joe Rogan.

59:21 Right.

59:22 Recently revealed that he's, um, in a, like a polyamorous marriage where he's having kids with both-

59:30 Christ.

59:31 ... partners kind of at the same time.

59:32 Oof.

59:33 There's, there's something there for sure.

59:35 Mm-hmm.

59:35 There's just-

59:36 Just a standard Mormon rite.

59:37 ... replete two family WhatsApp threads. But I think it's all part of-

59:40 Or one.

59:41 Yeah, I think it's all part of one that's just-

59:42 (laughs)

59:42 Can't be. Can't be.

59:44 Two women in it.

59:44 Surely there'd be-

59:44 Family unit! Wife, one.

59:45 It'd be a group with diff- it'd be a group with different announcements.

59:48 Different threads. Like, the Slack channel would have a couple of different-

59:50 Yeah.

59:50 ... yeah, different versions in, in the organization.

59:52 Exactly. Christ.

59:52 But anyway, the earnestness thing.

59:53 Yeah, sorry.

59:53 It's a really cool... No, it's a really, really good point. Um, do I have a problem with... I like ironic speech when it knows what it's doing. One of the problems with it only ever being irony is that you don't ever actually get to come into contact with reality or what someone thinks-

1:00:09 Mm-hmm.

1:00:09 ... or what they feel about a thing, and that's kind of fine, uh, when there's a bit of self-awareness. But it feels like a lot of the stuff on the internet, if you look at most Twitter disputes for, uh, X disputes, whatever, it's someone going, like, "I know you are, but what am I?" It's this very standoffish, it's very insincere, it's very sort of cutting and sardonic, and at- at some point-

1:00:30 But I, I, sorry to interrupt, I think the problem is that, with that, is that you separate. Or I certainly do. I mean, it's easier if