Modern WisdomThe Harsh Reality Of Modern Dating | Kezia Noble | Modern Wisdom Podcast 206
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,351 words- 0:00 – 0:53
The three biggest issues men face: approach anxiety, conversation, and escalation
- KNKezia Noble
There's three main sticking points that guys come to us with, and the first is approach anxiety, that feeling of being not good enough, going in with that negative mindset. "She's gonna say no," "She's busy," "I'm not gonna be her type." You know, a million excuses. So they're starting off already on the wrong foot and that affects their energy, their vibe, their body language, everything. The second one is, uh, conversation skills, just being able to express themself with confidence and authentically. The third one is getting stuck in the comfort zone, we call it, which is just not escalating in any way at all, not showing his intent, not flirting. The most common one out of those three, and where it all kind of lies, is that conversation skills. Essentially, that transition from opening line to getting her full attention, emotionally and mentally. I mean, that's, that transition, it's very, very difficult to achieve.
- 0:53 – 8:04
Why a woman teaching men to date draws less stigma than men doing it
- CWChris Williamson
I'm joined by Kezia Noble. Kezia, welcome to the show.
- KNKezia Noble
Hello.
- CWChris Williamson
Hello. How are you?
- KNKezia Noble
I'm fine, thank you. How are you?
- CWChris Williamson
Very good, thank you. What do you do for a job? Describe your job for me.
- KNKezia Noble
I'm a dating and attraction expert for men.
- CWChris Williamson
Dating and attraction expert for men. So not for women?
- KNKezia Noble
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Why-
- KNKezia Noble
That would, that would be the blind leading the blind.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, right. Okay. Okay. I get, I, I get that. I've, I've noticed this online upon doing a little bit of research for this, it appears there's a lot of women teaching men to date. Why is that the case? Why is it that women are teaching men to date and not men teaching men to date?
- KNKezia Noble
Um, okay. So my research says the complete opposite, is that there's more men teaching guys, uh, to, to attract and date. Um, I do think that there are some women who are now, you know, doing their thing. I think that's quite recent. Um, but I actually know a lot more guys that do this than women. Um, I think maybe, um, I think the guys get a li- a lot of, um, bad press unfortunately. Uh, the media seems to want to crucify pick-up artists, pick-up... anything related to pick-up. And if you're a woman, you, you, um, they're more, how I'm gonna put, sympathetic, um, to you teaching this, which is, which is totally unfair. I mean, it's good for me, but, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
But I'll say it is unfair because a lot of these guys, I think, um, are providing a service.
- CWChris Williamson
Isn't it interesting that the end result is the same thing? The end result is getting men to be better daters, more effective at being attractive, but because a girl's delivering it, it's somehow less seedy, less what?
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah. Less seedy. Um, it's like an easy target, isn't it? It's like, okay, if a guy's teaching another guy, you... The, you know, the media, the general public believe, you know, "Oh, he's untrustworthy." That word, like, seduction. It sounds very, um, very contrived. Um, he must be using tricks and, um, he must be, um, lying to her on some level. Whereas if a woman is, is teaching it and she's not actually going out and applying and demonstrating it, that's okay because it's in the abstract almost. Um, it's, it's more kind of like, well, it's theory rather than she's going out and doing it. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
It's interesting that. I, I, I find it fascinating that there's a branding problem for men teaching men to pick up women. And you've managed to get this competitive advantage, so fair play to you. Fair play to you. Well done for being born that gender and-
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah, it's great, huh?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, for sure. So first things first, where do you see men going wrong the most when dating and trying to attract women?
- KNKezia Noble
Um, well, let's, let's look at the most common, um, sticking points that guys come to us with and what I see in general when, when guys are approaching me or my friends. Um, the, there's three main sticking points that guys come to us with, and the first is approach anxiety, um, that feeling of being not good enough, um, going in with that negative mindset. "She's gonna say no," "She's busy," "I'm not gonna be her type." "She probably likes Black guys," "She probably likes white guys." You know, a million excuses. So they're starting off already on the wrong foot and that affects their energy, their vibe, their body language, everything. That's the first one. The second one is conversation skills, just being able to express themself with confidence and authentically. Um, guys will often talk to a woman with a nice guy filter on, I call it. It's, it's a filter. Um, so they, they're sort of playing not to lose rather than playing to win. They, um, will just go in there and be very safe. The conversation will be very safe. They'll say the same kind of generic stuff that everyone else says. Um, and then at the end of it, they kind of feel like, "Well, that wasn't me. It was, that was a poor representation of who I am. In fact, that wasn't me at all. That was a very watered down version of me." And that's, and like if we put a filter on anything, it gives a kind of nice effect, but it's not impactful. And, um, as I said, it's, it's, it's inauthentic. So I think a, a massive part of it is just guys running out of things to say, not saying anything impactful, not making a connection, and the girl loses interest very, very quickly. She makes her decision. It's kind of like when he does actually say something quite interesting, mentally she's already sort of checked out, and it's very difficult to, um, you know, make impact later on. Um, the third one is getting stuck in the comfort zone, we call it, which is just not escalating in any way at all, not showing his intent, not flirting. This kind of comes to the, the, the second point, which is the nice guy filter, which waters down your character, your boldness, your charm. Just waters everything down. And it goes back to the, the idea of playing not to lose. You know, not taking any risk at all.... um, and then having a very platonic conversation with the girl. So the girl's kind of thinking, "Well, you know, does he like me? Does he not? And if he does like me, he's not showing much intent. Um, so I don't really know where this is going." So I, I'd say that most of the sticking points that we have will fall under one of those three categories. But, uh, the most common one out of those three, and where it all kind of lies, is that conversation skills, that, essentially that transition from opening line to getting her full attention, emotionally and mentally. I mean, that's, that transition, it's very, very difficult to, to achieve.
- CWChris Williamson
That's so interesting. I can see both in my own experiences and in the ones of my friends. You might not know, I'm a nightclub promoter, so I've watched about a million drunk people go in and out of venues. Obviously, one of the main reasons that people go out is that they're perhaps single, perhaps looking for a partner, just, you know, whether that be serious or casual. Um, and look, to the girls that are listening, right, you might be thinking, "Oh, what am I gonna listen to all the dating tips for guys for?" But I wanna hear throughout this conversation, as Kezia's bringing up these sorts of things, I wanna hear if you've noticed this. So just leave it in the comments below or give me a DM, um, about whether or not you're noticing this, whether or not you have these guys that come up to you and just have this real vanilla personality. Like, whether or not you think that all guys, or the vast majority of guys, have nothing to say, whereas it might actually just be the case that they are selecting for a particular type of guy who is nervous around you, because you're a pretty girl and you've got pretty friends with you and you're dolled up and you've got your hair done. And, uh, blokes, really, we, we go out as a group, but, like, you don't... Before we were going out, we probably had our jeans on backwards, you know, we probably didn't really think too much about what we were gonna wear. And then you're there, you know, fully done up. So, yeah, I'd love to hear what girls' experiences of being on the receiving end of the sorts of things that we're going to go through today are like. Um, so first things first, how do guys get over approach anxiety? If you don't go and speak to the girl, you don't even get the opportunity to say something that's totally shit to her.
- 8:04 – 12:37
A practical model for overcoming approach anxiety: desensitization + conversational competence
- KNKezia Noble
Mm-hmm. So it's a two-pronged assault that we use, um, on this approach anxiety. Uh, the first is actually getting numb to the sensation of fear. I'm a big believer in numbing out rejection. Uh, overcoming it, I think, overcoming a fear of rejection is a difficult one. I did a video about this, in fact, and I waffled on in it so much because it's very, very complex, how to really overcome rejection. I don't believe that you truly can overcome not so much the fear, but, um, uh... I, I don't wanna waffle on here, so I'm gonna, I'm just reining in a little bit. Um, it's becoming numb to that feeling of fear. So the more you do something, you get rejected a few times, hurts, and then basically you numb to it, you become desensitized to it. And that's when I say the kind of fog lifts a little bit, and you start taking better risks, and you start becoming, um, a, a lot more - how can I put it? - um, level-headed about the whole approach. So if you are going into an interaction and you're like, um, you know, "Fuck it, I'm just gonna do it. I'm not gonna think about it," and then she rejects you, that can still hurt you. But after a while, it numbs and you have clarity. That's the word I'm looking for. You have, like, clarity. "Okay, so I don't feel the pain anymore. What do I need to do next?" You start asking the right questions. If you're coming from a place of, like, anger, like, "Oh, fuck her. She..."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
You know... Am I allowed to swear on your show?
- CWChris Williamson
Swear away. Fire away as much as you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
Okay. I should have asked that before. Apologies.
- CWChris Williamson
Totally fine.
- KNKezia Noble
So, um, if you're going in with that attitude, which is, "Oh, I hope she likes me. I don't wanna be hurt," okay, that's a fog in your head. If you're going in with a kind of like, "Fuck you, I don't care if you like me or not," you're going in with anger. That's a fog. You can't get clarity. You can't work out what to do next. When you are numb to something, you start asking the right questions. "Okay, what do I need to do to improve? What... Maybe it's that. Maybe I need to adjust this slightly." Can't do that when you're, you're caught up in that fog of anxiety and, you know, fear and hate and, um, um, feeling inadequate. That just... It's fog. So we, we do that, get them to go up, talk to girls, actually get over the physical, um, reaction of the anxiety. But then we go sort of backwards. So a big fear that guys have when I speak to them is not even the rejection, it's, it's actually the fear of running out of something to say, that awkward moment. They're sort of not even at that point of thinking about rejection right now. They're sometimes thinking, "But I've got nothing to say to her. Uh, but what if she says this and I don't know how to respond?" If you know... If you become a master conversationalist and you know, "Look, it doesn't matter what she throws at me. Doesn't matter what. She can tell me to fuck off and I'll make it work. She can tell me that she's from a country I've never heard of and I will, I will, um, say something that will absolutely, you know, capture her imagination, and it will want- make her want to invest in me. I can trigger her curiosity with e- whatever she gives me." If you have that kind of level of skill, the approach anxiety decreases, because you're, you already know, "Look, no matter what, I'm gonna have an interesting conversation with this person." So what, that's what we do. Like, this is in my seven-day mastery program, we used to just kind of start off with helping them overcome approach anxiety. As I said, just going out there, getting numb to it. And then I realized, no, we should be doing conversation skills simultaneously, because they're gonna get to this point where they overcome the approach anxiety, they're gonna talk to a woman, and then they're gonna be like, "Oh shit, I've got nothing to say."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
And then guess what? Approach anxiety-
- CWChris Williamson
That feeds back into the approach anxiety.
- KNKezia Noble
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- KNKezia Noble
Absolutely. So honestly, the best thing that you can do is become a master conversationalist.... become brilliant to say whatever she throws at me, have it all, like, lined up. What, if she says this to me, she says that to me, I got it. I got this. I'm not... I'm gonna capitalize on whatever she says and I know how to do it. So a lot of students come to me and go, "I just want to freestyle and be all, you know, authentic." I'm like, "Good luck. Good luck with that." Um, sometimes you do need those kind of go-to lines and that go-to sequence almost at the early stages, just to get you through that horrible sort of transition point where everything's very awkward.
- 12:37 – 22:51
Safety nets, go-to lines, and the difference between openers and what comes after
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. So, canned openers are, uh, a, a big sort of artifact of the old pick-up artistry world, right? Like, that was one of the things, I think, to have, like, the first you've got to go in, then neg the beta, then do this, and it just harks massively back to, um, the m- magic days of, of-
- KNKezia Noble
History, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah. You know, like, it just, it harks back to that, and I think that's, again, like, as I'm hearing this kind of, whatever it is, third wave, uh, relationship dating advice for men now or whatever it is, as I'm hearing this come out, I'm starting to see the development of that, right? So it used to be having these canned openers and getting over approach anxiety, avoiding getting KB'd and knocked back and all this sort of stuff. Um, but you've identified here that in order to kind of get your foot in the door, you need to have something that assists you in overcoming that approach anxiety.
- KNKezia Noble
A safety net, I call it.
- CWChris Williamson
I love that. So, perfect example. This'll be episode 200 and something of this podcast, right? I've done 300, 400 hours of this podcast. I still get nervous before every single one, because I don't want to say a stupid thing at the very, very start. I'll speak to some professor from Princeton I'm never gonna speak to again, unless we become best friends, which happens a lot. But I'll speak to some guy, but I still don't wanna look like a, a fool to him, and inevitably the people that are listening, which could be the girl's friends that are sat around her. So the way that-
- KNKezia Noble
But I have got a tip for you. Oh, so you've got a tip yourself. Go on. I wanna hear this.
- CWChris Williamson
So I just... I prep the first question. The only question which is fully scripted on this show is the first question, because I just want to get... I'm like, right, okay, if I nail that first, very first question, ah, I'm over it. We're into the conversation and then it's just a game of spontaneity. What I find interesting is that you've said relying too much on spontaneous wit is actually potentially going to be a little bit of a downfall when you're dating.
- KNKezia Noble
Can I, can I just... Yes, you're right, but there's just one caveat to that. There are people who are naturally witty. They're fine, they're good to go. I'm talking about people who find conversation very awkward, and most people do. Most people just are, are not... They're interesting people, they've got character, they've got a lot going for them, but they're just not engaging when it comes to conversation. They don't know how. They just hung around the same people all the time. They haven't developed those skills, okay? Um, it's like a beautiful woman. Most beautiful women that I personally know don't have much banter because they've had to rely on their beauty. So, you know, that, that's all they've had to do. Uh, th- th- th- the girls that are not so attractive have had to rely on their sex appeal, their, their wit, their banter, which is why, by the way, when you go to a strip club, the girl that is cleaning up the most is the least attractive one. She's using her head. She's using her banter and wit. Um, that's a fact. Every single strip club you go to, you will see that the least attractive, or, like, one of the, the less attractive, physically attractive women are doing much better than the really stunning girl who's just relying purely on her looks. I digress. Um, (laughs) uh, back to the point, uh, that I was saying. Okay, so if you're a, a witty person, then it's fine, but most people are not. They're not used to, um, you know, being in those situations where they have, like, literally three or four minutes to really make impact, um, and market their attributes, keep her interested, connect with her, all this stuff that they're trying to remember.
- CWChris Williamson
So I have these kind of things like conversational clickbait, things like that, little things I throw in there. I never tell them to lie, by the way. I never ever tell them to lie. Um, and so I give them conversational clickbait and I said, "Look, if you use this, it will be a great way for you to express your, um, attributes, your, your selling points, essentially, um, but it will also really, um, spark her curiosity and interest and, and get her to invest in you." I'm a good conversationalist, but I still rely on go-to lines sometimes. If I think, look, I need to, you know, I need to seriously make a bit of impact with this person, I will have my go-to lines, even now. So I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I've only seen it help. That's all I've seen. It's helped people. And then when you get really good and you become confident, because it's like a positive feedback loop. You start getting better responses. You start going, "Oh, okay, I don't need that anymore. I can use my own thing." Good, good. Use your own thing. Please, get rid of my stuff as soon as possible and use your own stuff. That's what I want you to do. But it's those early stages. It's a bit like, uh, well, kids, they have those bicycles with the stabilizers behind and eventually you get rid of them, but they do need those stabilizers to build up the confidence to get on a bike first, right? Yes. I wonder how many of the girls are having a visceral reaction, uh, that makes them feel uncomfortable at the potential for the opening line that a guy gives them to be something which wasn't actually designed for them because-
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, I don't give opening lines, sorry. Um, let me very, very... Let me just make that, uh, really, really clear. What I'm talking about here is the transition from opening lines. So some guys go to you, "What should I say?" I say, "Well, say anything to her." You know, ask her what time it is or tell her where she got her tan from. I don't know, tell her she looks good. But what you do with the data that she gives you, that is what I care about.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah, okay. So the magic is in scaling that from it just being, "Hi, I'm here. Look at me. I'm a person," to this is now a conversation and a dialogue between the two of you.
- KNKezia Noble
Yes, that, that's the really important part. A lot of guys come to me and go, "I just need that magic opening line." I'm like, I- I've got great opening lines. Don't get me wrong. It's gonna...... it's gonna make her go, "Ooh, that's interesting," and you're gonna gain her attention. But what do you do with the data that she exchanges? Because, you know, conversation is an exchange of data. And a lot of guys forget that. They just start going into interrogation mode. And the reason is because-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
... they're trying, it's because they're trying to find the answer that they want. That ain't gonna happen. She's not into the same stuff as you, commonalities.
- CWChris Williamson
What football team do you support?
- KNKezia Noble
And even so, let's say you support-
- CWChris Williamson
How much can you bench?
- KNKezia Noble
... Arsenal and she supports Arsenal.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
So you're gonna, there's gonna be attraction? No. I've never heard of a girl saying, "I slept with him because he supports the football team that my dad supports."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, you never know. You never know though.
- KNKezia Noble
I love, listen, I'll tell you something now, I love dogs. I love dogs. I'm a, you know, dog person. I don't like cats, I like dogs. And I'm telling you now, not a single guy, uh, has, who's said, "I love dogs too," I've slept with him based on that. It's never happened. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
But a lot of guys think, "Oh, as long as I find that one thing..."
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. I wonder-
- KNKezia Noble
... that's it.
- CWChris Williamson
... and just all of these are just open loops, Kezia, so all that we're doing is opening loops. And I want to know from the thousands of people that are listening, have you ever slept with someone because you both like the same animal? 'Cause someone will have done. Someone will be, "Oh my God, you're a parakeet person. I'm a parakeet person too." And then that's it, that's the beginning of a flourishing maybe there's a-
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, at the beginning. No, no, no, it can be the beginning. Like, "Okay, that's something we have in common, then what do we do with it next?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
And it goes on and it starts going to different conversations and, and it becomes very sort of multi-dimensional kind of interaction, very dynamic interaction, yes, but I don't think anyone's going to say, "Well, because, you know, we both like the same s- you know, fillings in our sandwich."
- 22:51 – 29:44
Why men approach less now: apps, online socializing, and a culture of fear
- KNKezia Noble
I think it's gotten worse though. I think it's gotten worse.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- KNKezia Noble
Um, well, there's a few reasons. There's a few reasons. Men, and I remember, you know, I've been, I- I've been, I was going to night clubs at, you know, 13, 14, and, you know, I would, I was thought too I was a bit too young being in those night clubs. (laughs) But I would watch, I would watch, and I saw men approaching a lot. This is in the '90s, okay? And I would see men approaching women a lot. I would see women getting hit on all the time, in fact. And then, you know, as I got older, it started happening to me and my friends. Um, but the more I went to clubs, the more I found that, I don't want to say men are becoming pussies. That would be, that would be, um... No, I would n- I would never say that, but, uh... Hmm. It's to do with, a massive part of it is to do with apps. Bloody dating apps. I think that's a big problem with it, people are getting very used to using dating apps. I don't think men are pussies, but I think society has tried to pussify men, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I mean, a perfect example of this is the fact that it's challenging for a man to teach another man to date without it somehow being labeled as being seedy. Like there has to be-
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah, I mean, the media is totally, society, media, you know, there's a mad witch hunt going on. Been going on since even before MeToo, there's been a kind of...... thing, like, it's a strange thing. I think I, I personally, I don't wanna get too crazy with this tin, you know, tin hat foil, tinfoil hat, tin, tinfoil hat on you, but I think the media is made up, social media, a lot of these people in the tech, I think a lot of them are men who are no good with women. They're like uber geeks, uber, uber geeks we're talking about. Always been shit with women, don't want to see other guys doing well with women. I think there's a... Personally, I think there's, like, this big conspiracy theory which is trying to make men into kind of very, um, not effeminate, but, uh, like, pussify them.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- KNKezia Noble
"You're wrong for wanting women. You're wrong for objectifying women."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
Hello, I don't mind being objectified. I have no problem with it.
- CWChris Williamson
I think the dynamic between the sexes definitely appears to be very different, you know. As someone who's 32, so I've been able to see the clubbing from 2005 until 2020. So I got a pretty, pretty good sample to play on.
- KNKezia Noble
Okay. Yeah, you do, but I've got even more ahead of you. I mean, I started clubbing in the '90s-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
... and I'm telling you, it... Even to be honest, in 2005, men were approaching women still, but you see now they're looking at phones, they're looking at the apps. Um, it's, it's kind of like an easy way to meet women. Everyone says it's a shortcut. It's not actually a shortcut because I don't use dating apps. I'm single right now. I'm divorced and I'm a single mom, so I should be on those dating apps more than anyone. I refuse to go on those dating apps. You know why? Because I see all my friends going, "Oh, I've wasted so much time on these dating apps." I was like, "Hold on, this is meant to be a shortcut." They're like, "No, I go on date after date." I'm like, "Oh." I've never had that problem because every guy that I've gone on a date with I've already met because he, he came and approached me or however or introduced to me. So I, I met him already and I got a sense. And that's very important, the sense of who someone is. Is it fill? It's... The body language, is it a bit off? What's their eye contact like? What's their manner? You, you know you sense people. And then when you go on the date with them, it can be a letdown, of course. We've had... We've all had bad date experiences. But on the whole, it's... You, you, you don't... It's not such a big leap as meeting someone that you've only seen a photograph of. So actually, these people who are saying it's a shortcut, I'm hearing more and more that they're wasting time on dates and drinks and, or people that as soon as they meet them, they go, "This is not the person that was in that photograph." I don't mean physically. I'm not talking... Physically is another thing. No one looks like their photographs anymore, not me, not you, not anyone. We're all filtered and, and people just go, "Oh," like that when they see us. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
But, um, I'm talking about the sense of confidence, because people are very, very, you know, gung-ho, witty with those text messages, you know. They're very funny, very confident. And then you meet them and think, "Really? Is that the same person?" Because it's easy to write, easy to write something and re-edit and think about it and... And when you actually meet someone one-on-one for a date, completely different. I think that's a big part of it. I do think it's that's a big part. I think there's a media kind of, um... Is it... Not motive. What's the word? A media, um, something, some... Agenda, agenda, um, against men. Uh, women are also, I think, making it difficult for men.
- CWChris Williamson
How?
- KNKezia Noble
Um, well, I have a lot of students. And then this is more happening I've found in places like S- San Francisco where there's a big kind of woke movement going on, um, and a lot of sort of, um, feminists. And they're telling me, like... But this is what they're telling me, I mean, I'm just giving you secondhand information here, that, um, you know, they just open up a door for a woman and they're getting shouted at. Shouted at for opening a door for a woman. So I can do that myself. And I think, I think that's very toxic to do that, to have those kind of reactions to people who could just be being polite, not even interested in you. And I think that's kind of spreading a little bit. Most women are okay. Most women, if you go speak to them, they'll, they'll be fine, you know. But, um, there is something, I think, that's been, um, been, been, been turn- been changing for quite a while now.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder if it-
- KNKezia Noble
I mean, why do you, why do you think? I'm very curious to know. Why do you think men are approaching women less than in the 1970s or '80s?
- CWChris Williamson
I can't speak for, for that long ago, but I think apps and the, uh, proliferation of people spending time online, generally more of our social time is now spent-
- KNKezia Noble
That's a big one.
- CWChris Williamson
Is... Ju- just generally, you know. Like, uh, uh, people... Guys talking to guys, girls talking to girls, it happens less because more of our communication is done through our phones, which inevitably is going to skew people toward being better online and worse offline. So that's, that's part of it. Um-
- KNKezia Noble
That's the big one. I agree with... That's the big one.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Because it's just a skill at the end of the day. Having a conversation with someone is just a skill. But if you don't converse all that much, you know, you can have people who... I've gone weeks, I'm sure that, that you might have done as well if you've just been head down in the funnel hole or in your marketing hole doing your bits and pieces. If you're not careful, you can actually go long periods of days without saying a word to anyone except for like, "Thank you" to the checkout server at Asda around the corner. (laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah. You get rusty, don't you?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- 29:44 – 34:23
Navigating MeToo, masculinity, and the cost of discouraging initiation
- KNKezia Noble
You get socially very rusty. But what do you think about the whole, um, media movement? You know, that, that kind of making guys into the enemy, that whole Me Too thing. I don't wanna get too much into that, but I-
- CWChris Williamson
No, it's fine. It's, uh, I've thought a lot about this over the last year, the last couple of years. I think that it's challenging to hold in reality at the same time that the Me Too movement has been born out of a very toxic system that was obviously happening, happening in Hollywood and women who quite rightly need to be heard. And at the same time that typical masculine traits and the fact that men are the protagonists in the dating market for a reason because that is every man, every male species on the planet bar like a penguin and a, a, a fucking parakeet or something-... men are the protagonists sexually. That is what happens. Men go up to women and as girls and the Me Too movement perhaps sometimes push that domain of what is fair, um, ou- outside of, you know, someone tries to open the door for somebody and f- whatever it is now, seventh wave feminism, whatever we're up to, um, perhaps pushes, pushes this rhetoric a little bit too hard. Men quite rightly only have one response, which is to go, "Right, well fuck it. Like if that's the way that you want to be, I'm just gonna leave, leave it." I had Douglas Murray on the show, and he was talking about a friend's-
- KNKezia Noble
Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
- CWChris Williamson
Phenomenal guy. You'd love the episode. Had him on the show and he was talking about his friend's son, and his friend's son is like 18 or something, 17, 18, so he'd be thinking like just about to hit the straps with women, like really, really, like hitting the ground running. And he asked his friend and he said, uh, "So is he ... Is your son dating?" And he was like, "Oh no, he wants nothing to do with women." And he's like ... 'Cause Dou- uh, Douglas is gay, so he can say this.
- KNKezia Noble
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
And he's like, "Oh my God, he's, he's not fucking gay, is he? He's not gay."
- KNKezia Noble
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
"He's not got that, he's not got that as his future, has he?" And, um, he was like, "No, no, no. He just thinks that they're far more trouble than they're worth. Doesn't want anything to do with them, just thinks that they're far more trouble than they're worth and leaves them be." And like that is, for everyone, for both sides of the aisle, that's a terrible situation for us to be in.
- KNKezia Noble
It is. It's shit. It's really, really shit. Um, for me, what really did it was that Gillette advert. I mean, that was atrocious, that Gillette advert. You remember the one?
- CWChris Williamson
I had Sargon Of Akkad on here talking precisely about that, yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
Ah well, I won't, I won't be an echo, but it was just the, the one scene that got me, let- all, the whole experience got me, and I'm a ... I, I have a son, so, um, I'm telling you now boys like to fight. It's not society, boys choose to fight. Okay? Even if you have the most peace-loving hippie family, boys fight. Okay? That's it. That's what they're like. Wrong or right, I don't know, but it's natural instinct in boys. Girls don't do it so much. Anyway, it was the bit when a woman was walking by and the man went up to approach her, and the other guy stood in front of him like, "No, don't approach her." But you don't know what that guy is gonna say. He could've, they could've got married as a result. Who is that man to come along and say, "No, you can't approach her"? I bet you that man, and I know, I know it's, it's just an advert and I'm looking into this, but I bet you if that was in real life, that man's married, he's got his life sorted out. The other guy's single, tough shit. Tough shit. Um, and that really got me really, really angry. I felt like we're almost living in a Wahabbist kind of society. It's like men and women can't talk to each other. Get the fuck out of here and go to Saudi Arabia. Really, go live there where women are on one side of the, you know, of a wall and the men are on the other, and go, you know, you do you. Okay? But-
- CWChris Williamson
It's a very narrow, it's a very narrow world view that believes that the, the, the most important situations that we have going on in gender inequality right now are occurring in the UK and in the USA. Like you just need to look to the Middle East and, and countries which have a lot of work to do to realize that that's not the case. And I appreciate that the world, the sphere that everybody lives in is relative not absolute, right? Like it's just your problem compared with the people in your immediate vicinity. So quite rightly-
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... so like everything is done in relative terms. But yeah, I, I, I agree. I think that there's a lot of challenges at the moment just in the dating market generally. And I want to get onto actually what girls can do to kind of help men in a second, but just finishing off those last two stages of what we were talking about. So men have overcome approach anxiety. What can they do moving on to make sure that they have good conversation, any stuff for body language and eye contact, and then how can they escalate? Not upscale. How can they escalate?
- 34:23 – 42:28
Sexual escalation as a slow ‘laced’ process (and why women’s arousal is more psychological)
- KNKezia Noble
Okay, so it's called sexual escalation. Um, and this is ... Lot of guys what they think is they go right in to approach the girl, build up comfort, rapport, get her interested, and then I need to sexually escalate. Yes, but you should be sexual escalating from the very beginning. Now that doesn't mean trying to physically turn her on at the very beginning. That's where men and women are, are quite different. Men are, it's much more physical. So I can be talking to a guy and it's quite platonic, and not every guy, I'm not saying that, but you know, if it, you know, just like a kind of average guy, if I suddenly say, "Oh yeah, let's go back to my house." And everything's very platonic. All I can do, like switch down the light, put on a bit of music, give him a massage, and I can turn him on. Okay? The, the average guy, because it's a physical thing. It's like, "Oh, okay, I'm stimulated." Now women are not like that. Women don't say, "Turn the light down, change the mood, give her, give her a massage, and she's gonna get horny." No. It's much more psychological. So I say to men, look, you can't just suddenly go, "Right, now I'm gonna flip a switch. I'm gonna start the, I'm gonna escalate now and just get her, you know, aroused." Women can do that to men much more easily than men can do that to women. What the man has to be doing when I say escalating is he has to be, um, sort of lacing the whole interaction with little attraction triggers. Okay? It's a more slow process. So he's gotta, for instance, demonstrate high value. Okay? Is this a man who has high value? Is this a man, um, who has other options? Is this a man who's needy? Is this a man that can get women if he wants? She's trying to assess all these things on some level, whereas a man isn't with a woman. He's not. He's thinking, "Oh yeah, is she up for it?" You know? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
He's talking the whole time going, "Is she up for it? Is she up for it?" Um, (laughs) "Has she got a boyfriend?" It's, it's much more sort of black and white. But with a girl, she's trying to ascertain a lot of things. "Is he a weirdo? Do other women find him attractive? Um, is he confident in bed? Is he ... " You know, it's all these things, and you've got to sort of drip feed ...... sort of clues to this throughout, and then you'll find that the transition to actually escalating and, and getting her aroused is a lot easier. Does that make sense, what I said?
- CWChris Williamson
What are some of the... Absolutely, yeah. What are some of the ways that you can drip feed that? Is it touching her on the knee when you say something? Is it-
- KNKezia Noble
No, that's the physical. That's the physicals. I'm talking about what to say to her kind of thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- KNKezia Noble
So, maybe if you, okay, so physically, it would be to stop, you know, halfway and then sort of take a look at her and then say something like, you know, "Now I know why I'm attracted to you. Now I know what it is." But anyway, you could, you could do something like that. So it's, it's kind of very playful in those early stages. Playful, flirty. "Is he really flirting with me? I'm not sure." Creates a bit of a chase, you know, a bit of intrigue. Um, giving her a compliment and then backing off like nothing's happened, that's push-pull. You can do things like that. But it, what I'm trying to say here, there's lots of different things you can do. Yes, the touching thing as you, as you mentioned, but, uh, I personally am someone that doesn't really like to be touched that much. I'm just not a warm person, but a guy can really arouse me with his words, okay, and his attitude. Um, so it, it does depend on the woman slightly, okay? Um, but yes, flirting, um, compliments, the way that you compliment. Um, you know, just show her that you have other options. Women really need to know that. Women don't want to be with a guy or sleep with a guy that kind of no other girl maybe wants or that maybe... The other thing is if the guy is showing too much desperation or neediness, this is the other thing that can get in the way when it comes to sexual escalation. Um, placing too much value, giving her way too much value. Saying something like, "I bet you get this all the time." You know, something like that is just, that's a kill. You know, that-
- CWChris Williamson
Demonstrating low value.
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah, yeah. Whereas, if a woman does it with a man, a man can always overlook it. I've noticed that. Women can get away with so much more because the man is kind of like, as you say, he's more programmed, like, "Oh, yeah. She up for it." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He's also, he's also not playing that status value game, right? He's not playing the game that like, if you're attracted to a girl, it doesn't really matter if there's other guys that are also attracted to her 100%.
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, he just wants to get his leg over, I know. (laughs) Very crude to say that.
- CWChris Williamson
Hey, we can be as crass as you want on this program.
- KNKezia Noble
No, but he just wants to like, you know, he wants to, um, he wants to fuck her. And it's like, "Oh, are other guys interested in her? Who gives a shit. I wanna fuck her." Um, you know, "Does she have status? I don't care, I wanna fuck her," you know. Where, 'cause she's, she's nice-looking, she's quite hot, and she's got a nice little personality on her. Um, it's, it's not the, um, you know, what they're expecting. And, and I don't mean, this doesn't, I'm not trying to belittle men or anything, but I, I think most guys, if people are gonna be honest, they will agree, yes, that is the case. Um, whereas women, it's much more they need a s- they need proof and validation that, or certainty that the guy's like this, that he's like that, and then they're trying to ascertain a lot more. That's what I'm trying to say, women. I know that's with me. I can meet a good-looking guy, and if he's, if he's just good-looking, I won't just sleep with a guy 'cause he's good-looking. I won't. Whereas a man will, a lot of men, not all, fine, but a lot of men will just sleep with a woman because she's hot. Only thing that they're interested in.
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's, I think that's true.
- KNKezia Noble
But even that, she's available sometimes. Come on, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
That's a, that's a true, a truth that everybody's forgotten, and it's an asymmetry in the way that we work as well. And again, this highlights, I think, as we move towards a world where some people are trying to make it much more egalitarian, like almost completely homogeneous between the genders, you're going to end up with challenges. Because as you've identified there, like, what a man looks for in attraction with a woman is not the same as what a woman looks for in a man. And what you identified that I thought was really interesting was that you have men, um, speaking to a woman in the way that they might find attractive as a man. So they're almost dating other men. They're like putting their own dating brain inside of the girl and saying, "Right, like, I'm gonna attack me. I'm gonna proposition me as her." It's like, "No, mate. Like, you're playing chess. She's playing fucking someone else."
- KNKezia Noble
Exactly. And I've learnt that with, like, how I seduce men. When I was young, I didn't have a clue what men want, you know, or anything. But now I know that, uh, men like to chase. I know they like to chase, and they, I, I think most men don't wanna be seduced. So what I do with guys is I will just, I'll, I'll, I'll say something that will get in their head. And it will be, it will just be something, an image that will stay in their head, and then I pull back, and then that's how I do it, because I know that they are operating on a different wave to women. Um, back to a point, you said that a lot of people are trying to, you know, um, say men and women are the same. Let me give you an example. All my male friends, okay, who I love dearly, I have seen them at the end of a nightclub. These are good friends of mine, and it's at the end, the end of the club, and there's a right scrubber. I'm like, "Come on. Really?" And they're like, (sighs) "I just need to fuck for the sake of it." I'm like, "Really? She looks like Winnie the Pooh. Come on." And they're just like, "She's up for it." And these are good-looking guys. These are, these are guys that, you know, they, they, they fuck beautiful women, stunners, but they will fuck a Winnie the Pooh because it's there. A woman, you will never see her at the, at the end of the nightclub going, "I'll just take anything. Him, him over there. That drunk guy, he'll do. You know, if he can get it up, I'm good." Women don't think that. They know how to play God.
- CWChris Williamson
Women don't, women don't think like that. I hope, uh-
- KNKezia Noble
No, but the man's like, "There's a hole. There's a pulse."
- CWChris Williamson
There's a goal.
- KNKezia Noble
"If he's in that mood, I'm doing it."
- 42:28 – 45:42
Dating asymmetries: swiping stats, hypergamy, and shrinking pools for high-achieving women
- CWChris Williamson
I had Rob, Rob Henderson, evolutionary psychologist, on the, on the podcast talking about dating and evolution and how it all ties together, and he used this analogy, which I think is absolutely perfect. He said that-... men look for a reason why they wouldn't sleep with a woman. Women look for a reason why they would sleep with a man. And th- the stats, anyone that went back and listened to that episode, men swipe right eight out of 10 times and women swipe right two out of 10 times. That's the stats on Tinder. The top 80% of women are competing for the top 20% of men, and the bottom 80% of men are competing for the bottom 20% of women. This is stats from Tinder.
- KNKezia Noble
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Now, you can dislike this as much as you want as a guy or a girl, but facts don't care about your feelings. These are the stats out of the backend of Tinder. What does that tell us? It tells us that hypergamy, women dating up and across, is challenging for both women and for men.
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's more women competing for a smaller pool of men.
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
There's also this problem with women becoming increasingly educated, increasingly rich, because women often don't want to date a guy who is better educated and or richer than them. And if you increase the level at which women (laughs) are becoming educated... This isn't me saying like, "Ah, Chris-"
- KNKezia Noble
No, that's true.
- CWChris Williamson
"... you're telling them that they shouldn't be educated." No, bollocks, that's not what I'm saying.
- KNKezia Noble
Not what you're saying.
- CWChris Williamson
Obviously. What I'm saying is that because of the natural, um, the natural attraction dynamic where women tend to date up and across, they like higher social value, they like a man that can demonstrate that value, if you have tons and tons of value, it's like being the really tall girl. Like if you're six foot as a girl without heels, you're looking at pro basketball players and stuff. Like you don't want to be able to not wear heels at your wedding. You don't want to not h- to be dating a guy that's shorter than you. That just happens to be. And if you take that rule and apply it to earnings and education, it's kind of the same. The higher that you move up the hierarchy as a female, the smaller and smaller and smaller your dating pool gets. Whereas as a guy, a guy will have a much broader dating pool.
- KNKezia Noble
Okay. But there's one exception to the rule. And I am in a really, really good position here. So I, you know, I'm gonna say, yeah, I, I earn a lot of money and I'm successful and, you know, I've got the big car and everything, and I know it's, yeah, some guy... Uh, you're absolutely right, most guys want someone, a woman that's successful than them. I, I, I agree. But apart from younger men. They, they get a massive kick out of it. And all-
- CWChris Williamson
Toy boys.
- KNKezia Noble
And I like younger men, so it's good.
- CWChris Williamson
Are you dating toy boys, Kezia? Come on.
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, barely legal.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
Love it. I don't give a shit anymore. I used to apologize, get... I, my friends used to take the piss out of me. It's like, I was like, "I don't care anymore. I don't care." I do younger men. That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
Fair play.
- KNKezia Noble
And they love it. They love it.
- CWChris Williamson
Fair play.
- KNKezia Noble
You know, they love the, they love the car, being picked up in the car, and, and, um, you know, the, the, the, this, you know, being (overlapping)
- CWChris Williamson
From college.
- KNKezia Noble
Huh?
- CWChris Williamson
From college. (laughs)
- KNKezia Noble
Oh. (laughs) I know.
- CWChris Williamson
Please, come on. Let's be-
- KNKezia Noble
You okay?
- CWChris Williamson
Let's be careful here. Let's be careful here, shall we?
- KNKezia Noble
I'm joking. I'm joking.
- 45:42 – 59:31
Pickup’s ‘golden age’ to modern self-improvement: ethics, evidence, and stigma
- CWChris Williamson
18 and over's fine. Um, let's talk about the, uh, those artifacts, that pick-up artistry artifacts that, uh, we sp- spoke about earlier on. Anyone who hasn't read Neil Strauss's The Game, or kind of the, um, I guess the period from, what, about 2000 to 2010, where kind of pick-up artistry, or maybe a little bit later, maybe like '03 to kind of '13-
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... where pick-up artistry and, um-
- KNKezia Noble
Golden age.
- CWChris Williamson
... real Social Dynamics, RSD Max, and all of these sorts of guys, like were smashing YouTube and putting these sorts of comments up. If you don't know who I'm talking about, just like go, go back in time by a decade and, and you'll, you'll see exactly what I mean. But being frank, like even I as a 21-year-old, 22-year-old hot-blooded male looked at that stuff and I felt icky. Like watching YouTube compilations of guys going up and practicing day game, which is just going up and like kissing girls in a fucking park somewhere, whilst some other guy YouTube like videos it, I'm like, uh, this, there's something kind of weird going on here. And with that having happened, and perhaps set the foundation for what is now your industry, I can see why there is work to be done in the teaching men to become attractive and to date well game, to perhaps undo some of the kind of unsavory stuff that happened a while ago. What's your thoughts there?
- KNKezia Noble
Um, I agree you shouldn't ever film someone without their permission. I've never done that. I've had, um, some of my trainers, they said, "Look, you know, can I put something on your YouTube channel of me approaching women?" I said, "Absolutely not. You do you, you do what you have to do, but, you know, that's not going up on my channel," 'cause I would hate for something like that to happen to me. Uh, but I do kind of get why they did it, because people wanna see evidence. 'Cause these guys, you know, they came out of nowhere. People are like, "Well, could you actually do it?" And if you just say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can," people are just gonna be like, "Well, anyone can say that. I need to see some evidence." So I can see it from a marketing point of view why they, they want to do it. Um, you know, that... Oh God, it's so funny. I have watched it really, really change, uh, the pick-up industry, and it has gone much more into self-help. But essentially, you're still teaching guys how to attract women. You're just, you know, using different terminology now. Um, people that would-
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely.
- KNKezia Noble
... the people that were teaching it then, they were people who almost were self-taught and had gone from literally zero to doing okay. Um, but it's changed now. Uh, most of the guys that come, you know, walk through our door are guys that are okay with women. There are some that have no- not a clue, quite a lot. But there's a lot who are just like, they're doing okay, but they just wanna do better. And I actually asked them, "Have you read The Game?" They never heard of it. So we're getting this new generation coming through, people that just want to get better at stuff. And I think we're living now in a culture where people believe in self-improvement. They're much more open and honest about it.So I think that's how it's, it's changed a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
There's no problem in the press with someone saying, "I read James Clear's Atomic Habits," though. But there is a problem with someone saying, "I take dating advice," or "I, I'm, I'm o- taking a course to help to pick up women." I still think there's a fair bit of stigma attached to that.
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Why is, why-
- KNKezia Noble
It's, it's changing. It is changing a little bit. Um, but yeah, it, it, it's still there. But for women to learn how to date men is perfectly acceptable. Have you seen all these people popping up teaching women how to date men? And I'm like, "Well, why is that acceptable?" You know? Why is that acceptable when this isn't? I don't get it.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't... So I, I've thought about that question a lot. I don't really know. I think ... I, I wanna know. Like, do you-
- KNKezia Noble
Women are not trying to get into bed. Women are trying to do something much, much more, um, sophisticated, and that's trying to get a relationship. Well, I'm sorry, that's much more manipulative than getting someone into bed. Get someone to wanna be in a relationship with you by any means necessary, like, "I will do anything to get that man to put a wedding ring on my finger," I'd be like, "God, that's like some hardcore manipulation there that you have to do. You've got to be a completely different person." Getting someone into bed, I think it's, I don't know, I just don't think it's so manipulative personally.
- CWChris Williamson
So you're saying that the impact of a short-term interaction by a guy being more effective is less than the impact of a long-term interaction where a woman might, might take these tips and then use them to have a, a five-year marriage with someone?
- KNKezia Noble
How many times have I heard my male friends say, "As soon as I married her, she changed."? She lost, she put on weight. That's the number one thing. Got really fat. Found out she had a drinking problem. You know, I've heard it all. I, I think men are the same. You know, a lot of women marry men and go, "Something's changed," but I think with ... I've heard a lot of women have, um, completely changed. They, they've got it. You know, they have got, they've got the prize. The, the ultimate prize for women is that they've married. I've done the whole marriage thing and I don't wanna do it again, but most women, they, they've done ... You know, they get the marriage and they go, "I'm good now. I'm good. I've got someone to look after me, take care of me, have children, have a nice life. He'll love me no matter what. You won't divorce me now." And men really will do anything to avoid a divorce. I've got this whole theory, I don't know why men even marry anymore. I mean, that's crazy.
- CWChris Williamson
How much should men think about their physical appearance? So we've talked a lot-
- KNKezia Noble
Who?
- CWChris Williamson
Men. How much should men think about their physical appearance? Like-
- KNKezia Noble
Their own physical appearance. Right, sorry. Yeah. Um, it is important. Um, but you can't become obsessed with it. Okay? You've got to do the best you can with yourself. Um, you know, it's all about a good impression. It does make a difference. Okay? However, saying that, I have ... Um, I'm very, I'm a very looks-orientated person compared to the average woman. I'm, you know, I, I like an, uh ... You know, I like a handsome guy and I will forgive a lot, um, of, um ... I'll forgive a lot if he, if he has a nice face and a nice body. But even I will be like, "Okay, there's, there's a limit with that." It is-
- CWChris Williamson
There's only so boring that that face can allow you to be.
- KNKezia Noble
Mm-hmm. And it's, equally I've been with men who are really not attractive. Not young, not my type, physically really quite gross, and I've been attracted to them. So I always say to guys, look, game will, um ... Game, good game, um, is much better than being a type. Much better. It's much more powerful. Um, so yes, make the best of yourself, but remember, even if you make the best of yourself, you're not gonna be every girl's type. She's just gonna say, "Well, at least he's made an effort. He looks half decent," if you're not her type. Work on the game. It's much- The fact of ... Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's much more scalable, I suppose, as well. The fact that if you have ... if you're able to make people laugh, I mean, fucking hell. Like, if you're able to make people laugh, it's a superpower. It doesn't matter whether you're in a business meeting, whether you're on a night out, whether you're trying to date a girl, whether you're trying to deescalate a fight outside of a nightclub. Like, if you can make people laugh ... The perfect example of this, I was on Love Island, I was on the first season of Love Island, and-
- KNKezia Noble
Were you?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I was the first person through the door.
- KNKezia Noble
The first season? When was the first season of Love Island?
- CWChris Williamson
Five years ago.
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, it's been going on that long, has it? Shit.
- CWChris Williamson
It has indeed, yeah. Although, I guess we haven't had a season this year, so ... Yeah. Uh, but yeah. And Jon Clark, who's now on TOWIE, Jonathan Clark was on my season, and he's like, a big, bigger lad. Like, not huge, but like, a bigger f- And there was like, everyone on there was like, the classic sort of reality TV physique look.
- KNKezia Noble
I know.
- 59:31 – 1:02:33
‘Nice guy’ vs ‘good guy’: polarity, contrast, and keeping attraction alive
- KNKezia Noble
Yes, and I think people need to be honest. Um, when I talk to girls and, or girls ... Not ... When I talk one-on-one with girls, they're always like, "Yes, yes." Sometimes when it's on social media, they'll say, "Oh, no, no. I only want a nice guy," and so I'm like, "You know, look at the stats. You know, loads of nice guys running around." And what is a nice guy? What they're saying is they want a good guy, okay? That's not a nice guy. Having a good man in your life. I'm telling you, he's got an element to him that-
- CWChris Williamson
What's the difference between a good guy and a nice guy?
- KNKezia Noble
Okay. So, um, the good guy, I ... I'm gonna simplify it, okay? The good guy shows elements of the bad guy. The bad guy shows elements of the good guy, and those are the men who are successful, okay? And then you've got the people who are too good and they end up nice category, and then you've got the, uh, the bad guys who are too bad, and they become one-dimensional.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- KNKezia Noble
So it's doing a bit of both. So if you say, "Look, I'm one of those people, I like to treat women well, I like to hold open the door, get the bill for them. I like that. I respect women, that's who I am." Good. Let's work with that, okay? But make sure that you're not so good that you're not sexually escalating, that you're being really safe with what you're saying, you're not voicing your opinions. Um, little tip for the guys who are really like, "I really respect women," is to sh- you know, to counterbalance that with being a bit of a bad boy in bed. This is very interesting. It's that, it's that contrast that's very attractive.So, I went on a date, and I'm gonna be quite personal here. Uh, I had a boyfriend and he was, you know, the good guy. Very polite, everything. And it was getting a bit kind of like, "Mm, I need a bit of spice here." And he leant o- he leant over during our dinner, and I was kind of like in that mode of saying, "You know what? This is not really working out." And he said, "I can't wait to fuck you later really hard." And I was like, "Oh, right. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Okay." But if he'd been a bad guy, like a kind of, you know, bit of a b- bad guy feel, which I date also, I can do both, and he started saying that to me, I'd be like, "Oh, please." It's like overkill.
- CWChris Williamson
It's more of the same?
- KNKezia Noble
It's overkill. So, with the bad guy, what is interesting is women will go for that, the bad guy because he'll show the- that sensitive side in bed or the vulnerable side, and it's that contrast. So, flipping it around, um, when I speak to men, a lot of guys say to me, "I like the alpha dominant woman." I said, "Yes, but I bet you like her to be quite submissive in bed, and you like her to be, like, quite vulnerable when no one's looking." And they're like, "Yes," because it's the contrast. If they're gonna go for a very dominant, alpha woman and she's dominant and alpha in bed, there's no other side and it becomes boring. I had to learn to do that 'cause I'm quite, like, tough and direct, and I noticed that the guys that really like me are the guys who've seen my vulnerable side. But when I hide that vulnerable side from, from guys, they're like, "You know what?"
- CWChris Williamson
It's just too one-dimensional.
- KNKezia Noble
"Let's call it a day, love." You know? (laughs) That's my tip for guys out there. You wanna be the good guy? Go for it. That's your thing and I encourage that. I don't try and change people like that. But my God, you need to show a different element to keep her on her toes.
- 1:02:33 – 1:11:00
Advice for women: be receptive, help the interaction, and treat men’s vulnerability with grace
- CWChris Williamson
I love that. So, finishing up, what dating and attraction advice do you have for women? We've given a lot for men this evening. What other, what other things that women can do to either help men be better daters or to be better daters themselves?
- KNKezia Noble
To help men become better daters, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, obviously as we've said this evening, like, there's a g- g- you know, a high level thing that I've noticed is if a guy comes over, if you're single and a guy comes over and you're with your group of girlfriends, don't keep your back turned to him when someone comes up, because it's the same girls that I know, 'cause I've seen, I've had 2,000-
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... 3,000 people work for me over the last 10 years, and they've all been between the ages of 18 and 21. And during that time, you have more relationships than you do lectures. And the girls that complain about being single, about not being able to find a good guy are the ones who, when they're on a night out with their girlfriends and a guy comes up and tries to talk to them, will give him this sort of weird sneering, like, kind of that, that-
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, this- oh, you mean like this?
- CWChris Williamson
It's that... Yeah. That over the sho-
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah, I know that face.
- CWChris Williamson
That over the shoulder thing. And it's like, well, fucking hell, darling. Like, do you want, do you want to have... (laughs) Like, do you wanna give a guy a chance or do you wanna look cool in front of your fucking mates?
- KNKezia Noble
That's it. Give him a chance. This is my advice for ladies out there. Throw him a really interesting question. "Oh, great" question. Something really good that gives him that open goal, that opportunity, and if he fucks up, he fucks up, it's his loss.
- CWChris Williamson
What like?
- KNKezia Noble
Um, I'd say something like, um... Oh, God. What do I... I'm generally very nice to guys I speak to. I mean, I'm really quite a nice person. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
I guess as a dating, as a dating coach, you're-
- KNKezia Noble
I've seen the other side.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're never gonna be a, a prick to guys that are trying to do the thing that you teach people to do.
- KNKezia Noble
I, I've never been a prick to guys, but even when I was younger, I would never... I don't know, I was one of those people that just... You know, I could be ruthless. When the time was up, I'd be like, "Okay, done." But I was never like if someone came up to me, I never went like that. I never, I just see it as a horrible thing to do to another human being. It's vile when people do that. Horrible. Why do that? Um, w- I would ask something like, um, I'd actually say, "Listen, what's your favorite film?" I really would. I would just say very corny and fucking dorky like that, because (laughs) if they're gonna fucking say to me, "Shawshank Redemption" (laughs) or that other bloody film that men love, uh, what's it called? The one with Leonardo DiCaprio and it's just a terrible film that every man loves. Uh, what's that? Inception or something.
- CWChris Williamson
Inception. Yeah.
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, ￡￠￡. I'm done. I'll just say, "Look, I'm sorry, I'm done."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) That was your chance.
- KNKezia Noble
"I gave you a chance."
- CWChris Williamson
I gave you, I gave you a chance.
- KNKezia Noble
I gave you the chance.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- KNKezia Noble
You could've just said something different. Or even say something like, you know, "What, what'd you do and why d'you love it?" Give them the opportunity. See, you can really give them a chance, right? What are they gonna say? Are they gonna say something funny, witty, or are they just gonna go, "I'm gonna carry on playing it really nice and safe." And then you can think, okay, just I- I... You don't have to hold onto them and go, "That's nice of you, I have to go now," or something.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- KNKezia Noble
But at least, you know, the guy's, like, had that chance at least.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. That's cool. I, I think one thing that I hope girls take away from this, I know we've given a lot of advice. I promise you I'm trying to find a guy or a girl that can come on and can do the same thing for girls. I think there's an awful lot that both genders have to learn from hearing dating advice for the other side. I know that girls have just had to sit through an hour of like learning like, "Oh, this is how guys can pick up other girls." But (clears throat) there's a lot of insights that you can glean from that as well, right? To reflect on yourself, "Oh, maybe, maybe that's the way that I am. Maybe it's this." The main thing that I'd love girls to take away from this-
- KNKezia Noble
Well, I can tell you something.
- CWChris Williamson
Hit me.
- KNKezia Noble
For girls. Men are very vulnerable. Don't believe all that kind of... They come to me, they're very vulnerable and most of them really are looking for love. And that's not me being corny and trying to finish on a high note. Yeah, men wanna screw around, they wanna fuck, and they will fuck a scrubber, you know. N- n- no, no question. But deep down, they really are looking. They say to me, "I'm looking for a girlfriend. I'm looking for the one."
- 1:11:00 – 1:14:11
Wingman/wingwoman dynamics and how introductions can help—or kill—attraction
- CWChris Williamson
Maybe if there's, in a s- in a situation, how do you think ... What can guys do to help other guys date and what can girls do to help other girls date? Is there anything that you think that they can, they can do? Like how can you gas your friends up so that they go over and speak to someone? Because it's not often, like, have you ever, here's a good one for you, the number of girls that have come over to me and said, "Hey, uh, my friend over there thinks that you're really whatever," whatever this is. And it's like, all right, fucking hell. Like, that's, that, that is such a ... 'Cause what do you do? 'Cause the girl's still sat with all of her friends. Do you go over and just like appear within the group of friends that have all been talking about you?
- KNKezia Noble
I would just say, "Well, tell her to come over here." I would have just said that.
- CWChris Williamson
Great point.
- KNKezia Noble
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Showing value.
- KNKezia Noble
Just, just tell her to come over. Yeah, you've got to show value. If you go there, Neeta, you're going into the lion's den. It's on her turf. It's like, that's her, her territory. If she, you know, just say to her, "Yeah, she's, she's gorgeous." Give her that, that bit of encouragement. "Yeah, she's gorgeous, your friend. Tell her to come over." Just that. That's that, all I would say because you, you, if you just say, "Oh, tell her to come over," um, the girl might be a bit nervous also like, "Oh, well, what if, you know, what, what if he doesn't like me?" But if you've said, "Oh, she's gorgeous," okay, fine. She's going to have that confidence to come over to you.
- CWChris Williamson
That's what I would do.
- KNKezia Noble
'Cause w- women can be a bit nervous, too. Women are a bit all this also, trust me.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why you're a professional. What can guys do? Anything that guys can do to help their mates?
- KNKezia Noble
Oh, um, not really. It's, it's awful for a guy to come over and say, "My friend likes you." It's not even cute. It's okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. No, it's just not it, is it?
- KNKezia Noble
If he's young, again, if he's 18, it's fine. But, um, the best thing to do is, um ... Actually, one of the best things that we did, we did this experiment where we went out with one of our students and I put him with one of my wing guys and I said, "Just trust me in this." Um, I said, "Just trust me what I'm gonna tell him to say about you." So there were some girls at the table. When he went, he could feel that there was no interest being built wh- when h- when the student went. He's like, "I got this, don't worry." He said, "Listen, my f- my friend," he's like, "he's such a player. It's like, it's best that you're kind of avoiding him. He's just a total player."Um, so anyway, and then when he got back, the girl was really interested in him because she'd already heard this. And was like, he's like, "You said that." And he's like, "Yeah, it's working. Don't worry about it." But the other thing, guys, please, and to girls, if you have a male friend, please, please, if you have a male friend and you want to set him up with someone, never ever introduce him as "He's a really nice guy."
Episode duration: 1:17:02
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Transcript of episode 5kmXTre3kEg
