The Harsh Reality Of Modern Dating | Kezia Noble | Modern Wisdom Podcast 206

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   There's three main sticking…

   1. KNKezia Noble0:00

      There's three main sticking points that guys come to us with, and the first is approach anxiety, that feeling of being not good enough, going in with that negative mindset. "She's gonna say no," "She's busy," "I'm not gonna be her type." You know, a million excuses. So they're starting off already on the wrong foot and that affects their energy, their vibe, their body language, everything. The second one is, uh, conversation skills, just being able to express themself with confidence and authentically. The third one is getting stuck in the comfort zone, we call it, which is just not escalating in any way at all, not showing his intent, not flirting. The most common one out of those three, and where it all kind of lies, is that conversation skills. Essentially, that transition from opening line to getting her full attention, emotionally and mentally. I mean, that's, that transition, it's very, very difficult to achieve.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:53

      I'm joined by Kezia Noble. Kezia, welcome to the show.

   3. KNKezia Noble0:56

      Hello.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:57

      Hello. How are you?

   5. KNKezia Noble0:59

      I'm fine, thank you. How are you?

   6. CWChris Williamson1:00

      Very good, thank you. What do you do for a job? Describe your job for me.

   7. KNKezia Noble1:04

      I'm a dating and attraction expert for men.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:08

      Dating and attraction expert for men. So not for women?

   9. KNKezia Noble1:12

      No.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:13

       Why-

   11. KNKezia Noble1:14

       That would, that would be the blind leading the blind.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:16

       Oh, right. Okay. Okay. I get, I, I get that. I've, I've noticed this online upon doing a little bit of research for this, it appears there's a lot of women teaching men to date. Why is that the case? Why is it that women are teaching men to date and not men teaching men to date?

   13. KNKezia Noble1:32

       Um, okay. So my research says the complete opposite, is that there's more men teaching guys, uh, to, to attract and date. Um, I do think that there are some women who are now, you know, doing their thing. I think that's quite recent. Um, but I actually know a lot more guys that do this than women. Um, I think maybe, um, I think the guys get a li- a lot of, um, bad press unfortunately. Uh, the media seems to want to crucify pick-up artists, pick-up... anything related to pick-up. And if you're a woman, you, you, um, they're more, how I'm gonna put, sympathetic, um, to you teaching this, which is, which is totally unfair. I mean, it's good for me, but, you know-

   14. CWChris Williamson2:19

       (laughs)

   15. KNKezia Noble2:20

       But I'll say it is unfair because a lot of these guys, I think, um, are providing a service.

   16. CWChris Williamson2:26

       Isn't it interesting that the end result is the same thing? The end result is getting men to be better daters, more effective at being attractive, but because a girl's delivering it, it's somehow less seedy, less what?

   17. KNKezia Noble2:42

       Yeah. Less seedy. Um, it's like an easy target, isn't it? It's like, okay, if a guy's teaching another guy, you... The, you know, the media, the general public believe, you know, "Oh, he's untrustworthy." That word, like, seduction. It sounds very, um, very contrived. Um, he must be using tricks and, um, he must be, um, lying to her on some level. Whereas if a woman is, is teaching it and she's not actually going out and applying and demonstrating it, that's okay because it's in the abstract almost. Um, it's, it's more kind of like, well, it's theory rather than she's going out and doing it. Um-

   18. CWChris Williamson3:24

       It's interesting that. I, I, I find it fascinating that there's a branding problem for men teaching men to pick up women. And you've managed to get this competitive advantage, so fair play to you. Fair play to you. Well done for being born that gender and-

   19. KNKezia Noble3:38

       Yeah, it's great, huh?

   20. CWChris Williamson3:39

       (laughs) Yeah, for sure. So first things first, where do you see men going wrong the most when dating and trying to attract women?

   21. KNKezia Noble3:48

       Um, well, let's, let's look at the most common, um, sticking points that guys come to us with and what I see in general when, when guys are approaching me or my friends. Um, the, there's three main sticking points that guys come to us with, and the first is approach anxiety, um, that feeling of being not good enough, um, going in with that negative mindset. "She's gonna say no," "She's busy," "I'm not gonna be her type." "She probably likes Black guys," "She probably likes white guys." You know, a million excuses. So they're starting off already on the wrong foot and that affects their energy, their vibe, their body language, everything. That's the first one. The second one is conversation skills, just being able to express themself with confidence and authentically. Um, guys will often talk to a woman with a nice guy filter on, I call it. It's, it's a filter. Um, so they, they're sort of playing not to lose rather than playing to win. They, um, will just go in there and be very safe. The conversation will be very safe. They'll say the same kind of generic stuff that everyone else says. Um, and then at the end of it, they kind of feel like, "Well, that wasn't me. It was, that was a poor representation of who I am. In fact, that wasn't me at all. That was a very watered down version of me." And that's, and like if we put a filter on anything, it gives a kind of nice effect, but it's not impactful. And, um, as I said, it's, it's, it's inauthentic. So I think a, a massive part of it is just guys running out of things to say, not saying anything impactful, not making a connection, and the girl loses interest very, very quickly. She makes her decision. It's kind of like when he does actually say something quite interesting, mentally she's already sort of checked out, and it's very difficult to, um, you know, make impact later on. Um, the third one is getting stuck in the comfort zone, we call it, which is just not escalating in any way at all, not showing his intent, not flirting. This kind of comes to the, the, the second point, which is the nice guy filter, which waters down your character, your boldness, your charm. Just waters everything down. And it goes back to the, the idea of playing not to lose. You know, not taking any risk at all.... um, and then having a very platonic conversation with the girl. So the girl's kind of thinking, "Well, you know, does he like me? Does he not? And if he does like me, he's not showing much intent. Um, so I don't really know where this is going." So I, I'd say that most of the sticking points that we have will fall under one of those three categories. But, uh, the most common one out of those three, and where it all kind of lies, is that conversation skills, that, essentially that transition from opening line to getting her full attention, emotionally and mentally. I mean, that's, that transition, it's very, very difficult to, to achieve.

   22. CWChris Williamson6:38

       That's so interesting. I can see both in my own experiences and in the ones of my friends. You might not know, I'm a nightclub promoter, so I've watched about a million drunk people go in and out of venues. Obviously, one of the main reasons that people go out is that they're perhaps single, perhaps looking for a partner, just, you know, whether that be serious or casual. Um, and look, to the girls that are listening, right, you might be thinking, "Oh, what am I gonna listen to all the dating tips for guys for?" But I wanna hear throughout this conversation, as Kezia's bringing up these sorts of things, I wanna hear if you've noticed this. So just leave it in the comments below or give me a DM, um, about whether or not you're noticing this, whether or not you have these guys that come up to you and just have this real vanilla personality. Like, whether or not you think that all guys, or the vast majority of guys, have nothing to say, whereas it might actually just be the case that they are selecting for a particular type of guy who is nervous around you, because you're a pretty girl and you've got pretty friends with you and you're dolled up and you've got your hair done. And, uh, blokes, really, we, we go out as a group, but, like, you don't... Before we were going out, we probably had our jeans on backwards, you know, we probably didn't really think too much about what we were gonna wear. And then you're there, you know, fully done up. So, yeah, I'd love to hear what girls' experiences of being on the receiving end of the sorts of things that we're going to go through today are like. Um, so first things first, how do guys get over approach anxiety? If you don't go and speak to the girl, you don't even get the opportunity to say something that's totally shit to her.

   23. KNKezia Noble8:04

       Mm-hmm. So it's a two-pronged assault that we use, um, on this approach anxiety. Uh, the first is actually getting numb to the sensation of fear. I'm a big believer in numbing out rejection. Uh, overcoming it, I think, overcoming a fear of rejection is a difficult one. I did a video about this, in fact, and I waffled on in it so much because it's very, very complex, how to really overcome rejection. I don't believe that you truly can overcome not so much the fear, but, um, uh... I, I don't wanna waffle on here, so I'm gonna, I'm just reining in a little bit. Um, it's becoming numb to that feeling of fear. So the more you do something, you get rejected a few times, hurts, and then basically you numb to it, you become desensitized to it. And that's when I say the kind of fog lifts a little bit, and you start taking better risks, and you start becoming, um, a, a lot more - how can I put it? - um, level-headed about the whole approach. So if you are going into an interaction and you're like, um, you know, "Fuck it, I'm just gonna do it. I'm not gonna think about it," and then she rejects you, that can still hurt you. But after a while, it numbs and you have clarity. That's the word I'm looking for. You have, like, clarity. "Okay, so I don't feel the pain anymore. What do I need to do next?" You start asking the right questions. If you're coming from a place of, like, anger, like, "Oh, fuck her. She..."

   24. CWChris Williamson9:39

       (laughs)

   25. KNKezia Noble9:39

       You know... Am I allowed to swear on your show?

   26. CWChris Williamson9:41

       Swear away. Fire away as much as you want. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. KNKezia Noble9:44

       Okay. I should have asked that before. Apologies.

   28. CWChris Williamson9:44

       Totally fine.

   29. KNKezia Noble9:46

       So, um, if you're going in with that attitude, which is, "Oh, I hope she likes me. I don't wanna be hurt," okay, that's a fog in your head. If you're going in with a kind of like, "Fuck you, I don't care if you like me or not," you're going in with anger. That's a fog. You can't get clarity. You can't work out what to do next. When you are numb to something, you start asking the right questions. "Okay, what do I need to do to improve? What... Maybe it's that. Maybe I need to adjust this slightly." Can't do that when you're, you're caught up in that fog of anxiety and, you know, fear and hate and, um, um, feeling inadequate. That just... It's fog. So we, we do that, get them to go up, talk to girls, actually get over the physical, um, reaction of the anxiety. But then we go sort of backwards. So a big fear that guys have when I speak to them is not even the rejection, it's, it's actually the fear of running out of something to say, that awkward moment. They're sort of not even at that point of thinking about rejection right now. They're sometimes thinking, "But I've got nothing to say to her. Uh, but what if she says this and I don't know how to respond?" If you know... If you become a master conversationalist and you know, "Look, it doesn't matter what she throws at me. Doesn't matter what. She can tell me to fuck off and I'll make it work. She can tell me that she's from a country I've never heard of and I will, I will, um, say something that will absolutely, you know, capture her imagination, and it will want- make her want to invest in me. I can trigger her curiosity with e- whatever she gives me." If you have that kind of level of skill, the approach anxiety decreases, because you're, you already know, "Look, no matter what, I'm gonna have an interesting conversation with this person." So what, that's what we do. Like, this is in my seven-day mastery program, we used to just kind of start off with helping them overcome approach anxiety. As I said, just going out there, getting numb to it. And then I realized, no, we should be doing conversation skills simultaneously, because they're gonna get to this point where they overcome the approach anxiety, they're gonna talk to a woman, and then they're gonna be like, "Oh shit, I've got nothing to say."

   30. CWChris Williamson11:54

       (laughs)
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   So I have these…

   1. KNKezia Noble15:00

      they've got a lot going for them, but they're just not engaging when it comes to conversation. They don't know how. They just hung around the same people all the time. They haven't developed those skills, okay? Um, it's like a beautiful woman. Most beautiful women that I personally know don't have much banter because they've had to rely on their beauty. So, you know, that, that's all they've had to do. Uh, th- th- th- the girls that are not so attractive have had to rely on their sex appeal, their, their wit, their banter, which is why, by the way, when you go to a strip club, the girl that is cleaning up the most is the least attractive one. She's using her head. She's using her banter and wit. Um, that's a fact. Every single strip club you go to, you will see that the least attractive, or, like, one of the, the less attractive, physically attractive women are doing much better than the really stunning girl who's just relying purely on her looks. I digress. Um, (laughs) uh, back to the point, uh, that I was saying. Okay, so if you're a, a witty person, then it's fine, but most people are not. They're not used to, um, you know, being in those situations where they have, like, literally three or four minutes to really make impact, um, and market their attributes, keep her interested, connect with her, all this stuff that they're trying to remember.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:11

      So I have these kind of things like conversational clickbait, things like that, little things I throw in there. I never tell them to lie, by the way. I never ever tell them to lie. Um, and so I give them conversational clickbait and I said, "Look, if you use this, it will be a great way for you to express your, um, attributes, your, your selling points, essentially, um, but it will also really, um, spark her curiosity and interest and, and get her to invest in you." I'm a good conversationalist, but I still rely on go-to lines sometimes. If I think, look, I need to, you know, I need to seriously make a bit of impact with this person, I will have my go-to lines, even now. So I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I've only seen it help. That's all I've seen. It's helped people. And then when you get really good and you become confident, because it's like a positive feedback loop. You start getting better responses. You start going, "Oh, okay, I don't need that anymore. I can use my own thing." Good, good. Use your own thing. Please, get rid of my stuff as soon as possible and use your own stuff. That's what I want you to do. But it's those early stages. It's a bit like, uh, well, kids, they have those bicycles with the stabilizers behind and eventually you get rid of them, but they do need those stabilizers to build up the confidence to get on a bike first, right? Yes. I wonder how many of the girls are having a visceral reaction, uh, that makes them feel uncomfortable at the potential for the opening line that a guy gives them to be something which wasn't actually designed for them because-

   3. KNKezia Noble17:38

      Oh, I don't give opening lines, sorry. Um, let me very, very... Let me just make that, uh, really, really clear. What I'm talking about here is the transition from opening lines. So some guys go to you, "What should I say?" I say, "Well, say anything to her." You know, ask her what time it is or tell her where she got her tan from. I don't know, tell her she looks good. But what you do with the data that she gives you, that is what I care about.

   4. CWChris Williamson18:00

      Ah, okay. So the magic is in scaling that from it just being, "Hi, I'm here. Look at me. I'm a person," to this is now a conversation and a dialogue between the two of you.

   5. KNKezia Noble18:09

      Yes, that, that's the really important part. A lot of guys come to me and go, "I just need that magic opening line." I'm like, I- I've got great opening lines. Don't get me wrong. It's gonna...... it's gonna make her go, "Ooh, that's interesting," and you're gonna gain her attention. But what do you do with the data that she exchanges? Because, you know, conversation is an exchange of data. And a lot of guys forget that. They just start going into interrogation mode. And the reason is because-

   6. CWChris Williamson18:31

      (laughs)

   7. KNKezia Noble18:31

      ... they're trying, it's because they're trying to find the answer that they want. That ain't gonna happen. She's not into the same stuff as you, commonalities.

   8. CWChris Williamson18:40

      What football team do you support?

   9. KNKezia Noble18:42

      And even so, let's say you support-

   10. CWChris Williamson18:43

       How much can you bench?

   11. KNKezia Noble18:44

       ... Arsenal and she supports Arsenal.

   12. CWChris Williamson18:46

       Yeah.

   13. KNKezia Noble18:47

       So you're gonna, there's gonna be attraction? No. I've never heard of a girl saying, "I slept with him because he supports the football team that my dad supports."

   14. CWChris Williamson18:55

       (laughs) Yeah, you never know. You never know though.

   15. KNKezia Noble18:57

       I love, listen, I'll tell you something now, I love dogs. I love dogs. I'm a, you know, dog person. I don't like cats, I like dogs. And I'm telling you now, not a single guy, uh, has, who's said, "I love dogs too," I've slept with him based on that. It's never happened. (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson19:14

       (laughs)

   17. KNKezia Noble19:14

       But a lot of guys think, "Oh, as long as I find that one thing..."

   18. CWChris Williamson19:18

       Hmm. I wonder-

   19. KNKezia Noble19:19

       ... that's it.

   20. CWChris Williamson19:19

       ... and just all of these are just open loops, Kezia, so all that we're doing is opening loops. And I want to know from the thousands of people that are listening, have you ever slept with someone because you both like the same animal? 'Cause someone will have done. Someone will be, "Oh my God, you're a parakeet person. I'm a parakeet person too." And then that's it, that's the beginning of a flourishing maybe there's a-

   21. KNKezia Noble19:38

       Oh, at the beginning. No, no, no, it can be the beginning. Like, "Okay, that's something we have in common, then what do we do with it next?"

   22. CWChris Williamson19:44

       Yeah.

   23. KNKezia Noble19:44

       And it goes on and it starts going to different conversations and, and it becomes very sort of multi-dimensional kind of interaction, very dynamic interaction, yes, but I don't think anyone's going to say, "Well, because, you know, we both like the same s- you know, fillings in our sandwich."

   24. CWChris Williamson20:03

       (laughs)

   25. KNKezia Noble20:04

       That, we use the same washing detergent, that's it.

   26. CWChris Williamson20:08

       That's, that could be the basis for a great-

   27. KNKezia Noble20:09

       Take me to bed. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson20:10

       It could be, yeah, exactly. Whisk me away, where's the Uber? Um, okay, so that's how someone can get over approach anxiety. And I guess it's interesting that that leads into both the second and third aspects, right? The run out of something to say, and then the, what did you call it, like up-upscaling or the advancing the conversation to like show that-

   29. KNKezia Noble20:29

       Uh, escalating.

   30. CWChris Williamson20:29

       Escalating, that's it, yes. U-upscaling, fucking hell. Marketing, too much marketing, um-
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

      I think that it's challenging to hold in reality at the same time that the Me Too movement has been born out of a very toxic system that was obviously happening, happening in Hollywood and women who quite rightly need to be heard. And at the same time that typical masculine traits and the fact that men are the protagonists in the dating market for a reason because that is every man, every male species on the planet bar like a penguin and a, a, a fucking parakeet or something-... men are the protagonists sexually. That is what happens. Men go up to women and as girls and the Me Too movement perhaps sometimes push that domain of what is fair, um, ou- outside of, you know, someone tries to open the door for somebody and f- whatever it is now, seventh wave feminism, whatever we're up to, um, perhaps pushes, pushes this rhetoric a little bit too hard. Men quite rightly only have one response, which is to go, "Right, well fuck it. Like if that's the way that you want to be, I'm just gonna leave, leave it." I had Douglas Murray on the show, and he was talking about a friend's-

   2. KNKezia Noble31:09

      Brilliant, absolutely brilliant.

   3. CWChris Williamson31:09

      Phenomenal guy. You'd love the episode. Had him on the show and he was talking about his friend's son, and his friend's son is like 18 or something, 17, 18, so he'd be thinking like just about to hit the straps with women, like really, really, like hitting the ground running. And he asked his friend and he said, uh, "So is he ... Is your son dating?" And he was like, "Oh no, he wants nothing to do with women." And he's like ... 'Cause Dou- uh, Douglas is gay, so he can say this.

   4. KNKezia Noble31:32

      Yep.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:32

      And he's like, "Oh my God, he's, he's not fucking gay, is he? He's not gay."

   6. KNKezia Noble31:36

      (laughs) .

   7. CWChris Williamson31:36

      "He's not got that, he's not got that as his future, has he?" And, um, he was like, "No, no, no. He just thinks that they're far more trouble than they're worth. Doesn't want anything to do with them, just thinks that they're far more trouble than they're worth and leaves them be." And like that is, for everyone, for both sides of the aisle, that's a terrible situation for us to be in.

   8. KNKezia Noble31:53

      It is. It's shit. It's really, really shit. Um, for me, what really did it was that Gillette advert. I mean, that was atrocious, that Gillette advert. You remember the one?

   9. CWChris Williamson32:03

      I had Sargon Of Akkad on here talking precisely about that, yeah.

   10. KNKezia Noble32:06

       Ah well, I won't, I won't be an echo, but it was just the, the one scene that got me, let- all, the whole experience got me, and I'm a ... I, I have a son, so, um, I'm telling you now boys like to fight. It's not society, boys choose to fight. Okay? Even if you have the most peace-loving hippie family, boys fight. Okay? That's it. That's what they're like. Wrong or right, I don't know, but it's natural instinct in boys. Girls don't do it so much. Anyway, it was the bit when a woman was walking by and the man went up to approach her, and the other guy stood in front of him like, "No, don't approach her." But you don't know what that guy is gonna say. He could've, they could've got married as a result. Who is that man to come along and say, "No, you can't approach her"? I bet you that man, and I know, I know it's, it's just an advert and I'm looking into this, but I bet you if that was in real life, that man's married, he's got his life sorted out. The other guy's single, tough shit. Tough shit. Um, and that really got me really, really angry. I felt like we're almost living in a Wahabbist kind of society. It's like men and women can't talk to each other. Get the fuck out of here and go to Saudi Arabia. Really, go live there where women are on one side of the, you know, of a wall and the men are on the other, and go, you know, you do you. Okay? But-

   11. CWChris Williamson33:20

       It's a very narrow, it's a very narrow world view that believes that the, the, the most important situations that we have going on in gender inequality right now are occurring in the UK and in the USA. Like you just need to look to the Middle East and, and countries which have a lot of work to do to realize that that's not the case. And I appreciate that the world, the sphere that everybody lives in is relative not absolute, right? Like it's just your problem compared with the people in your immediate vicinity. So quite rightly-

   12. KNKezia Noble33:50

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson33:50

       ... so like everything is done in relative terms. But yeah, I, I, I agree. I think that there's a lot of challenges at the moment just in the dating market generally. And I want to get onto actually what girls can do to kind of help men in a second, but just finishing off those last two stages of what we were talking about. So men have overcome approach anxiety. What can they do moving on to make sure that they have good conversation, any stuff for body language and eye contact, and then how can they escalate? Not upscale. How can they escalate?

   14. KNKezia Noble34:23

       Okay, so it's called sexual escalation. Um, and this is ... Lot of guys what they think is they go right in to approach the girl, build up comfort, rapport, get her interested, and then I need to sexually escalate. Yes, but you should be sexual escalating from the very beginning. Now that doesn't mean trying to physically turn her on at the very beginning. That's where men and women are, are quite different. Men are, it's much more physical. So I can be talking to a guy and it's quite platonic, and not every guy, I'm not saying that, but you know, if it, you know, just like a kind of average guy, if I suddenly say, "Oh yeah, let's go back to my house." And everything's very platonic. All I can do, like switch down the light, put on a bit of music, give him a massage, and I can turn him on. Okay? The, the average guy, because it's a physical thing. It's like, "Oh, okay, I'm stimulated." Now women are not like that. Women don't say, "Turn the light down, change the mood, give her, give her a massage, and she's gonna get horny." No. It's much more psychological. So I say to men, look, you can't just suddenly go, "Right, now I'm gonna flip a switch. I'm gonna start the, I'm gonna escalate now and just get her, you know, aroused." Women can do that to men much more easily than men can do that to women. What the man has to be doing when I say escalating is he has to be, um, sort of lacing the whole interaction with little attraction triggers. Okay? It's a more slow process. So he's gotta, for instance, demonstrate high value. Okay? Is this a man who has high value? Is this a man, um, who has other options? Is this a man who's needy? Is this a man that can get women if he wants? She's trying to assess all these things on some level, whereas a man isn't with a woman. He's not. He's thinking, "Oh yeah, is she up for it?" You know? (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson36:14

       (laughs)

   16. KNKezia Noble36:14

       He's talking the whole time going, "Is she up for it? Is she up for it?" Um, (laughs) "Has she got a boyfriend?" It's, it's much more sort of black and white. But with a girl, she's trying to ascertain a lot of things. "Is he a weirdo? Do other women find him attractive? Um, is he confident in bed? Is he ... " You know, it's all these things, and you've got to sort of drip feed ...... sort of clues to this throughout, and then you'll find that the transition to actually escalating and, and getting her aroused is a lot easier. Does that make sense, what I said?

   17. CWChris Williamson36:45

       What are some of the... Absolutely, yeah. What are some of the ways that you can drip feed that? Is it touching her on the knee when you say something? Is it-

   18. KNKezia Noble36:53

       No, that's the physical. That's the physicals. I'm talking about what to say to her kind of thing.

   19. CWChris Williamson36:58

       Mm-hmm.

   20. KNKezia Noble36:58

       So, maybe if you, okay, so physically, it would be to stop, you know, halfway and then sort of take a look at her and then say something like, you know, "Now I know why I'm attracted to you. Now I know what it is." But anyway, you could, you could do something like that. So it's, it's kind of very playful in those early stages. Playful, flirty. "Is he really flirting with me? I'm not sure." Creates a bit of a chase, you know, a bit of intrigue. Um, giving her a compliment and then backing off like nothing's happened, that's push-pull. You can do things like that. But it, what I'm trying to say here, there's lots of different things you can do. Yes, the touching thing as you, as you mentioned, but, uh, I personally am someone that doesn't really like to be touched that much. I'm just not a warm person, but a guy can really arouse me with his words, okay, and his attitude. Um, so it, it does depend on the woman slightly, okay? Um, but yes, flirting, um, compliments, the way that you compliment. Um, you know, just show her that you have other options. Women really need to know that. Women don't want to be with a guy or sleep with a guy that kind of no other girl maybe wants or that maybe... The other thing is if the guy is showing too much desperation or neediness, this is the other thing that can get in the way when it comes to sexual escalation. Um, placing too much value, giving her way too much value. Saying something like, "I bet you get this all the time." You know, something like that is just, that's a kill. You know, that-

   21. CWChris Williamson38:23

       Demonstrating low value.

   22. KNKezia Noble38:25

       Yeah, yeah. Whereas, if a woman does it with a man, a man can always overlook it. I've noticed that. Women can get away with so much more because the man is kind of like, as you say, he's more programmed, like, "Oh, yeah. She up for it." (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson38:35

       He's also, he's also not playing that status value game, right? He's not playing the game that like, if you're attracted to a girl, it doesn't really matter if there's other guys that are also attracted to her 100%.

   24. KNKezia Noble38:47

       Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, he just wants to get his leg over, I know. (laughs) Very crude to say that.

   25. CWChris Williamson38:54

       Hey, we can be as crass as you want on this program.

   26. KNKezia Noble38:56

       No, but he just wants to like, you know, he wants to, um, he wants to fuck her. And it's like, "Oh, are other guys interested in her? Who gives a shit. I wanna fuck her." Um, you know, "Does she have status? I don't care, I wanna fuck her," you know. Where, 'cause she's, she's nice-looking, she's quite hot, and she's got a nice little personality on her. Um, it's, it's not the, um, you know, what they're expecting. And, and I don't mean, this doesn't, I'm not trying to belittle men or anything, but I, I think most guys, if people are gonna be honest, they will agree, yes, that is the case. Um, whereas women, it's much more they need a s- they need proof and validation that, or certainty that the guy's like this, that he's like that, and then they're trying to ascertain a lot more. That's what I'm trying to say, women. I know that's with me. I can meet a good-looking guy, and if he's, if he's just good-looking, I won't just sleep with a guy 'cause he's good-looking. I won't. Whereas a man will, a lot of men, not all, fine, but a lot of men will just sleep with a woman because she's hot. Only thing that they're interested in.

   27. CWChris Williamson39:57

       I think that's, I think that's true.

   28. KNKezia Noble39:58

       But even that, she's available sometimes. Come on, you know?

   29. CWChris Williamson40:00

       That's a, that's a true, a truth that everybody's forgotten, and it's an asymmetry in the way that we work as well. And again, this highlights, I think, as we move towards a world where some people are trying to make it much more egalitarian, like almost completely homogeneous between the genders, you're going to end up with challenges. Because as you've identified there, like, what a man looks for in attraction with a woman is not the same as what a woman looks for in a man. And what you identified that I thought was really interesting was that you have men, um, speaking to a woman in the way that they might find attractive as a man. So they're almost dating other men. They're like putting their own dating brain inside of the girl and saying, "Right, like, I'm gonna attack me. I'm gonna proposition me as her." It's like, "No, mate. Like, you're playing chess. She's playing fucking someone else."

   30. KNKezia Noble40:56

       Exactly. And I've learnt that with, like, how I seduce men. When I was young, I didn't have a clue what men want, you know, or anything. But now I know that, uh, men like to chase. I know they like to chase, and they, I, I think most men don't wanna be seduced. So what I do with guys is I will just, I'll, I'll, I'll say something that will get in their head. And it will be, it will just be something, an image that will stay in their head, and then I pull back, and then that's how I do it, because I know that they are operating on a different wave to women. Um, back to a point, you said that a lot of people are trying to, you know, um, say men and women are the same. Let me give you an example. All my male friends, okay, who I love dearly, I have seen them at the end of a nightclub. These are good friends of mine, and it's at the end, the end of the club, and there's a right scrubber. I'm like, "Come on. Really?" And they're like, (sighs) "I just need to fuck for the sake of it." I'm like, "Really? She looks like Winnie the Pooh. Come on." And they're just like, "She's up for it." And these are good-looking guys. These are, these are guys that, you know, they, they, they fuck beautiful women, stunners, but they will fuck a Winnie the Pooh because it's there. A woman, you will never see her at the, at the end of the nightclub going, "I'll just take anything. Him, him over there. That drunk guy, he'll do. You know, if he can get it up, I'm good." Women don't think that. They know how to play God.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Toy boys. …

   1. KNKezia Noble45:00

      They, they get a massive kick out of it. And all-

   2. CWChris Williamson45:02

      Toy boys.

   3. KNKezia Noble45:03

      And I like younger men, so it's good.

   4. CWChris Williamson45:04

      Are you dating toy boys, Kezia? Come on.

   5. KNKezia Noble45:06

      Oh, barely legal.

   6. CWChris Williamson45:08

      (laughs)

   7. KNKezia Noble45:10

      Love it. I don't give a shit anymore. I used to apologize, get... I, my friends used to take the piss out of me. It's like, I was like, "I don't care anymore. I don't care." I do younger men. That's it.

   8. CWChris Williamson45:21

      Fair play.

   9. KNKezia Noble45:21

      And they love it. They love it.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:23

       Fair play.

   11. KNKezia Noble45:23

       You know, they love the, they love the car, being picked up in the car, and, and, um, you know, the, the, the, this, you know, being (overlapping)

   12. CWChris Williamson45:32

       From college.

   13. KNKezia Noble45:34

       Huh?

   14. CWChris Williamson45:35

       From college. (laughs)

   15. KNKezia Noble45:35

       Oh. (laughs) I know.

   16. CWChris Williamson45:35

       Please, come on. Let's be-

   17. KNKezia Noble45:36

       You okay?

   18. CWChris Williamson45:37

       Let's be careful here. Let's be careful here, shall we?

   19. KNKezia Noble45:39

       I'm joking. I'm joking.

   20. CWChris Williamson45:40

       Let's talk about-

   21. KNKezia Noble45:41

       18 and over.

   22. CWChris Williamson45:42

       18 and over's fine. Um, let's talk about the, uh, those artifacts, that pick-up artistry artifacts that, uh, we sp- spoke about earlier on. Anyone who hasn't read Neil Strauss's The Game, or kind of the, um, I guess the period from, what, about 2000 to 2010, where kind of pick-up artistry, or maybe a little bit later, maybe like '03 to kind of '13-

   23. KNKezia Noble46:06

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson46:06

       ... where pick-up artistry and, um-

   25. KNKezia Noble46:08

       Golden age.

   26. CWChris Williamson46:09

       ... real Social Dynamics, RSD Max, and all of these sorts of guys, like were smashing YouTube and putting these sorts of comments up. If you don't know who I'm talking about, just like go, go back in time by a decade and, and you'll, you'll see exactly what I mean. But being frank, like even I as a 21-year-old, 22-year-old hot-blooded male looked at that stuff and I felt icky. Like watching YouTube compilations of guys going up and practicing day game, which is just going up and like kissing girls in a fucking park somewhere, whilst some other guy YouTube like videos it, I'm like, uh, this, there's something kind of weird going on here. And with that having happened, and perhaps set the foundation for what is now your industry, I can see why there is work to be done in the teaching men to become attractive and to date well game, to perhaps undo some of the kind of unsavory stuff that happened a while ago. What's your thoughts there?

   27. KNKezia Noble47:09

       Um, I agree you shouldn't ever film someone without their permission. I've never done that. I've had, um, some of my trainers, they said, "Look, you know, can I put something on your YouTube channel of me approaching women?" I said, "Absolutely not. You do you, you do what you have to do, but, you know, that's not going up on my channel," 'cause I would hate for something like that to happen to me. Uh, but I do kind of get why they did it, because people wanna see evidence. 'Cause these guys, you know, they came out of nowhere. People are like, "Well, could you actually do it?" And if you just say, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can," people are just gonna be like, "Well, anyone can say that. I need to see some evidence." So I can see it from a marketing point of view why they, they want to do it. Um, you know, that... Oh God, it's so funny. I have watched it really, really change, uh, the pick-up industry, and it has gone much more into self-help. But essentially, you're still teaching guys how to attract women. You're just, you know, using different terminology now. Um, people that would-

   28. CWChris Williamson48:02

       Absolutely.

   29. KNKezia Noble48:03

       ... the people that were teaching it then, they were people who almost were self-taught and had gone from literally zero to doing okay. Um, but it's changed now. Uh, most of the guys that come, you know, walk through our door are guys that are okay with women. There are some that have no- not a clue, quite a lot. But there's a lot who are just like, they're doing okay, but they just wanna do better. And I actually asked them, "Have you read The Game?" They never heard of it. So we're getting this new generation coming through, people that just want to get better at stuff. And I think we're living now in a culture where people believe in self-improvement. They're much more open and honest about it.So I think that's how it's, it's changed a lot.

   30. CWChris Williamson48:47

       There's no problem in the press with someone saying, "I read James Clear's Atomic Habits," though. But there is a problem with someone saying, "I take dating advice," or "I, I'm, I'm o- taking a course to help to pick up women." I still think there's a fair bit of stigma attached to that.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:13:27

   Yep. …

   1. KNKezia Noble1:00:00

      it, okay? The good guy shows elements of the bad guy. The bad guy shows elements of the good guy, and those are the men who are successful, okay? And then you've got the people who are too good and they end up nice category, and then you've got the, uh, the bad guys who are too bad, and they become one-dimensional.

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

      Yep.

   3. KNKezia Noble1:00:17

      So it's doing a bit of both. So if you say, "Look, I'm one of those people, I like to treat women well, I like to hold open the door, get the bill for them. I like that. I respect women, that's who I am." Good. Let's work with that, okay? But make sure that you're not so good that you're not sexually escalating, that you're being really safe with what you're saying, you're not voicing your opinions. Um, little tip for the guys who are really like, "I really respect women," is to sh- you know, to counterbalance that with being a bit of a bad boy in bed. This is very interesting. It's that, it's that contrast that's very attractive.So, I went on a date, and I'm gonna be quite personal here. Uh, I had a boyfriend and he was, you know, the good guy. Very polite, everything. And it was getting a bit kind of like, "Mm, I need a bit of spice here." And he leant o- he leant over during our dinner, and I was kind of like in that mode of saying, "You know what? This is not really working out." And he said, "I can't wait to fuck you later really hard." And I was like, "Oh, right. Okay. That's what I was looking for. Okay." But if he'd been a bad guy, like a kind of, you know, bit of a b- bad guy feel, which I date also, I can do both, and he started saying that to me, I'd be like, "Oh, please." It's like overkill.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:01:28

      It's more of the same?

   5. KNKezia Noble1:01:30

      It's overkill. So, with the bad guy, what is interesting is women will go for that, the bad guy because he'll show the- that sensitive side in bed or the vulnerable side, and it's that contrast. So, flipping it around, um, when I speak to men, a lot of guys say to me, "I like the alpha dominant woman." I said, "Yes, but I bet you like her to be quite submissive in bed, and you like her to be, like, quite vulnerable when no one's looking." And they're like, "Yes," because it's the contrast. If they're gonna go for a very dominant, alpha woman and she's dominant and alpha in bed, there's no other side and it becomes boring. I had to learn to do that 'cause I'm quite, like, tough and direct, and I noticed that the guys that really like me are the guys who've seen my vulnerable side. But when I hide that vulnerable side from, from guys, they're like, "You know what?"

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:18

      It's just too one-dimensional.

   7. KNKezia Noble1:02:19

      "Let's call it a day, love." You know? (laughs) That's my tip for guys out there. You wanna be the good guy? Go for it. That's your thing and I encourage that. I don't try and change people like that. But my God, you need to show a different element to keep her on her toes.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:33

      I love that. So, finishing up, what dating and attraction advice do you have for women? We've given a lot for men this evening. What other, what other things that women can do to either help men be better daters or to be better daters themselves?

   9. KNKezia Noble1:02:46

      To help men become better daters, um-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:49

       Well, obviously as we've said this evening, like, there's a g- g- you know, a high level thing that I've noticed is if a guy comes over, if you're single and a guy comes over and you're with your group of girlfriends, don't keep your back turned to him when someone comes up, because it's the same girls that I know, 'cause I've seen, I've had 2,000-

   11. KNKezia Noble1:03:07

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:07

       ... 3,000 people work for me over the last 10 years, and they've all been between the ages of 18 and 21. And during that time, you have more relationships than you do lectures. And the girls that complain about being single, about not being able to find a good guy are the ones who, when they're on a night out with their girlfriends and a guy comes up and tries to talk to them, will give him this sort of weird sneering, like, kind of that, that-

   13. KNKezia Noble1:03:30

       Oh, this- oh, you mean like this?

   14. CWChris Williamson1:03:33

       It's that... Yeah. That over the sho-

   15. KNKezia Noble1:03:34

       Yeah, I know that face.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:03:35

       That over the shoulder thing. And it's like, well, fucking hell, darling. Like, do you want, do you want to have... (laughs) Like, do you wanna give a guy a chance or do you wanna look cool in front of your fucking mates?

   17. KNKezia Noble1:03:46

       That's it. Give him a chance. This is my advice for ladies out there. Throw him a really interesting question. "Oh, great" question. Something really good that gives him that open goal, that opportunity, and if he fucks up, he fucks up, it's his loss.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:03:59

       What like?

   19. KNKezia Noble1:04:00

       Um, I'd say something like, um... Oh, God. What do I... I'm generally very nice to guys I speak to. I mean, I'm really quite a nice person. Um-

   20. CWChris Williamson1:04:09

       I guess as a dating, as a dating coach, you're-

   21. KNKezia Noble1:04:11

       I've seen the other side.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:04:11

       ... you're never gonna be a, a prick to guys that are trying to do the thing that you teach people to do.

   23. KNKezia Noble1:04:16

       I, I've never been a prick to guys, but even when I was younger, I would never... I don't know, I was one of those people that just... You know, I could be ruthless. When the time was up, I'd be like, "Okay, done." But I was never like if someone came up to me, I never went like that. I never, I just see it as a horrible thing to do to another human being. It's vile when people do that. Horrible. Why do that? Um, w- I would ask something like, um, I'd actually say, "Listen, what's your favorite film?" I really would. I would just say very corny and fucking dorky like that, because (laughs) if they're gonna fucking say to me, "Shawshank Redemption" (laughs) or that other bloody film that men love, uh, what's it called? The one with Leonardo DiCaprio and it's just a terrible film that every man loves. Uh, what's that? Inception or something.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:05:00

       Inception. Yeah.

   25. KNKezia Noble1:05:02

       Oh, ￡￠￡. I'm done. I'll just say, "Look, I'm sorry, I'm done."

   26. CWChris Williamson1:05:04

       (laughs) That was your chance.

   27. KNKezia Noble1:05:05

       "I gave you a chance."

   28. CWChris Williamson1:05:05

       I gave you, I gave you a chance.

   29. KNKezia Noble1:05:06

       I gave you the chance.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:05:07

       Okay.

Episode duration: 1:17:02