The Health Crisis Of Office Jobs - Bob King

1. 0:00 – 0:39

   Bad Posture: Discipline or Design Problem?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Most people think that back pain and low energy and bad posture are discipline problems. You think that they're design problems. Why is that?

   2. BKBob King0:10

      Yeah, very interesting. If-- Well, if you look at, you look at the data on the population of people around the world, certainly people in the United States, a significant percent of adults in, in America, for example, have chronic or on-- or rep- repeated, uh, back pain. It's a, a huge problem, and as you get older, it gets worse and worse. I think, um, I think it's, it's clear if you look at what people do day to day, you can see quite clearly that there's, there's a cause and effect there.

2. 0:39 – 7:41

   What’s Really Causing Your Back Pain?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:39

      What's the evidence around sitting and back pain?

   2. BKBob King0:43

      There-- You can look at, you can look at sitting postures. The most interesting thing about that is you look at postures when people sit. I, I study people sitting. I think it's quite interesting. Uh, there's data on this too, but if you were to look anywhere in, in buildings here in Austin or, or buildings in Tokyo or, or Singapore, anywhere, you would see people sitting at their desk, hunched over their desk, their back probably not even touching the back of their chair, keying on their computer for hours and hours on end. That's how people sit. I even at one point, I needed a, a slide for my deck, so-- of someone, you know, sitting in that posture. So I Googled "photo of person working on computer," something like that, and I got hundreds of pictures. They were all essentially identical. People hunched over their desks.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:30

      The old C-spine.

   4. BKBob King1:32

      Your, your, your spine is now curved forward, um, which is incredibly, incredibly unhealthy. And what, what, what happens when you're, you, you, you lean forward like that is you put more stress on your spine. But interestingly also, your vertebrae is cur- is curved forward, so each vertebrae comes together on one side-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:51

      Mm-hmm

   6. BKBob King1:51

      ... and opens up on the other. So on one side it's putting pressure on your disc, on the other side it's opening up, opening up the disc.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:57

      Yep.

   8. BKBob King1:58

      There, there's probab- I can't imagine, and in fact, I, I'm pretty sure there's, there's-- aside from lifting very heavy weights, there's probably nothing worse for your back than doing, than doing that, and that's how everybody's, everyone sits.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:07

      Do you know Dr. Stu McGill? Do you know who he is?

   10. BKBob King2:10

       No. No.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:10

       Back mechanic. So he is the world's number one lower back pain doctor, and I had a ton of back pain in twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen. So twenty nineteen, after I brought him on the podcast, I flew to Gravenhurst, which is two hours north of Toronto. So I landed in Toronto on my own, rented a car from Toronto Airport, drove two hours north to Gravenhurst to see this guy.

   12. BKBob King2:32

       And your back was killing you by the time you were driving for two hours.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:33

       The guy-- It was-- It wasn't assisted at all. And I get there, and it's this sort of crazy wizard of the lower back that I went to go and see with a huge mustache. Looks like, uh, like Santa Claus on his off day. And he said, uh, "I don't take private clients. I'm sort of full with all of this stuff. But if you come out with me and we go fishing, and if you catch a fish, then I'll do your en- entire consult." He's k- quite playful like that. He's the best. He's the absolute best, and I love that guy. But I remember I was sat with him morning after we'd been together, and we were becoming really good friends. He gets a phone call, and it was a woman. I don't know how she'd got his number. Maybe somebody had passed her on. And this woman said, "I'm in so much chronic pain from my lower back that I wanna take my own life," or, "I want to find a way to end my life, and I'm thinking about doing it tomorrow." And I watched this guy who I'd just met and was dealing with me, a young dude that had done too much CrossFit, and listened to him sort of talk this person back off the ledge of, "There are a ton of different interventions. Do not get surgery. You don't need to do this. You don't need to do that." But this person was-- Oh, that was it. Sorry. No. They were-- They'd wanted to do that, and the only solution they could think of was surgery. But the outcomes for lower back surgery are usually worse. People go to a lower baseline afterwards because the complications, the potential complications. This is what happened with Ronnie Coleman, if you know him, Mr. Olympia, big huge-

   14. BKBob King4:04

       Oh, yeah. Yeah

   15. CWChris Williamson4:04

       ... eight-time Mr. Olympia guy, and now he walks with crutches. I think he said his pain day to day is regularly a nine out of ten, and he's on the maximum legal dose for Percocet or some sort of other opioid. So yeah, sometimes the, uh, medicine is worse than the disease when it comes to that.

   16. BKBob King4:21

       It's a very-- it's a really tough, uh, surgery. Long, long recovery periods. And oft- as you say, you know, often the results aren't so great. Um, the, the key to this whole thing is, is really prevention rather than intervention. If you have, if you have really ba- bad back, you have to intervene and, and, and deal with it. But ideally, you, you don't wanna-- you wanna protect your back.

   17. CWChris Williamson4:43

       I found some stats around office workers. Around eighty percent of office workers sit between four and nine hours daily. Desk job syndrome now includes back pain, headaches, numbness, and eye strain. Musculoskeletal disorders account for one third of all workplace injuries in the US, costing employers an estimated fifty billion dollars annually in compensation and lost productivity. People who predominantly sit at work have a sixteen percent higher risk of all-cause mortality and a thirty-four percent higher risk of dying from cardiovascular disease. And office workers can spend over ten hours sitting each day. Some estimates put a typical office worker's total sedated time up to fifteen hours a day when you include commuting and leisure. And then sleep on top of that. Like, you're, you're basically going from static to static with brief interludes of movement.

   18. BKBob King5:34

       And sleeping is, sleeping's good. And by the way, laying down in a bed is a, is a very healthy thing to do. And by the way, the interesting thing when you're sleeping is you move. You're, you're not perfectly still by any means. Ev- we all move. We use our large muscles in moving. But, but-

   19. CWChris Williamson5:51

       Isn't that hilarious that people might move more when they're asleep than when they're at work?

   20. BKBob King5:55

       Oh, much more.

   21. CWChris Williamson5:56

       [laughing]

   22. BKBob King5:56

       No, much, much more. Without a doubt. Without a doubt they move more. Because once you're in a chair and you're, you're hunched over-On your computer, people don't move. And, and you've seen these... You, you, well, you obviously have seen the same stats I have. People, people don't move, and the, the data is clear, and there, there's all these, these articles that, that say that sitting is, is as bad for you as smoking. It's one of the worst things you can do. It's not actually sitting that's, that's problematic. It's sitting still.

   23. CWChris Williamson6:29

       Mm.

   24. BKBob King6:29

       When you sit perfectly still, it's the only time in your life pretty much when you're not using your large muscles at all. And, and that's what's causing a lot of these pro- that's what's causing the vast majority of these health problems, aside from the musculoskeletal issues.

   25. CWChris Williamson6:43

       Are humans just not meant to sit at desks, then?

   26. BKBob King6:46

       You could certainly say that. Uh, yes, uh, it- sitting is not the greatest thing in the world. It, it's... Yeah, I think that's true. However, there are healthier ways to approach sitting, and we, we need to sit. And by the way, if we're standing all day, had a s- we had a sit-stand desk and we stood all day, that, the data on that is clear, too. That's not healthy. Your, your, your, your, your blood and your fluids pool in your, in your lower legs.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:11

       Varicose veins.

   28. BKBob King7:12

       There's, there... Yeah, there's problems with your... With your veins. Your veins have to return blood to your heart. Um, that's done with movement, by the way. There's no... The, the pumping is not really effective anymore. You move, and that's what moves the, the blood back to your heart, and when you're standing up, it has to go up, fight gravity. So standing isn't the answer either. I don't think sitting's gonna go away, but I think it's really important that we sit in a healthy, in a healthy way. And that's what, what us, what we at, uh, Humanscale are obsessed with, of course.

3. 7:41 – 9:48

   Is Sitting the New Smoking?

   1. CWChris Williamson7:41

      If sitting is the new smoking, why has no one's behavior changed?

   2. BKBob King7:49

      For one thing, people didn't... I don't think there's a lot of data behind sitting is the new smoking. The data shows that the problem isn't really sitting. The problem is really sitting perfectly still-

   3. CWChris Williamson8:00

      Mm-hmm

   4. BKBob King8:00

      ... and not moving.

   5. CWChris Williamson8:01

      Okay.

   6. BKBob King8:02

      That's-

   7. CWChris Williamson8:02

      Do you think most people who sit, sit still?

   8. BKBob King8:05

      The vast majority of people sit still.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:07

      Yeah.

   10. BKBob King8:07

       And they sit still for a number of reasons. But the main reason they sit still, in fact, this, this goes back when, when before we made chairs, um, I never understood why everybody was hunched over their desk. I'd see people wherever I was in the world. Everyone's the same. They're all typing, leaning forward on their desk, hunched over their desk. As I said earlier, their back not even touching the back of the chair.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:31

       Mm.

   12. BKBob King8:32

       And I... That's not comfortable. I mean, if you were sitting at home watching a, watching a video podcast, you wouldn't be on your couch like this, right? You'd, you, you would, you would lean back. You'd relax. And so I... We knew it's, we know it's incredibly unhealthy from a musculoskeletal point of view. We know it's incredibly unhealthy from, just from a longevity point of view.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:51

       Mm.

   14. BKBob King8:51

       So I asked... I used to ask people, I asked my friends who work that way, I asked strangers in offices why they work that way. And no one knew. Everyone said it was comfortable or something like that. So it's interesting. Y- your question is d- don't they know? And, and the answer is no, they, they, they don't, they don't know it's, that it's unhealthy. And, um, they don't know that it's not good to sit that way, and they don't even know why they're sitting that way.

   15. CWChris Williamson9:13

       Hmm. What's the problem with the static sitting? Why is that particularly bad for us?

   16. BKBob King9:18

       Well, I think that's what it comes down to. That, that's the on- As I said earlier, that's the only time in your life, aside from maybe a special situation [laughs] where maybe you're in a cast or something, where you're not using your large muscles. The rest of your day, you're using your large muscles. Um, when you're sleeping, you're using your large muscles. Uh, when you're sitting in your office working on a computer, you're hunched over your desk, and your large muscles, your, your quads and, and so on are, are not engaged for extended periods of time.

   17. CWChris Williamson9:47

       Hmm.

4. 9:48 – 16:28

   The Secret to Designing a Healthier Workspace

   1. CWChris Williamson9:48

      Okay. What is a better way to think about designing a healthy work environment that you're going to be at, whether you're one person in your spare bedroom, or you're part of a, a, an office and you get some say in how your, your office is designed?

   2. BKBob King10:01

      Well, certainly having a sit-stand desk helps because then it's, it's, it's appropriate and healthy once an hour to stand for a bit. Whatever's comfortable for you. Half an hour, 10 minutes would be, w- is very, is a very healthy thing, getting movement. I was just standing over, however... I was standing over the other day a large financial trading floor at, uh, in London. It was a huge floor, 1,200 seats, and it was all open. And I was standing with the head of workplace design, and we were looking at this, at this, uh, space. And there are 1,200 people there. They... And I said, "Oh, so these all have height adjustable desking, right?" And, "Yes." He was quite proud of that. I said, "You know what would be fun? Let's count how many people are standing."

   3. CWChris Williamson10:43

      [laughs]

   4. BKBob King10:45

      Uh, and, and she said, "Sure." And so we counted.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:47

      Yeah.

   6. BKBob King10:48

      We counted five people, Chris.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:50

      Out of...

   8. BKBob King10:51

      1,200.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:53

      Yeah.

   10. BKBob King10:53

       So it was very interesting. So she s- she assured me that more people sit, stand in the morning. So I was like, "Okay, fine. Yeah, I'm sure."

   11. CWChris Williamson11:01

       Okay. Well, at least-

   12. BKBob King11:02

       But, so I think a sit-stand desk is very, is a good thing to have, uh, if you, if you use it. Uh, the data tells us that unfortunately, most people don't use it. So that's, that's, I think that's important. The, the second, the second thing is, and this gives you a little idea of what my journey was, I couldn't understand why people were hunched over their desks like that.

   13. CWChris Williamson11:24

       Mm.

   14. BKBob King11:24

       Everyone told me it was, it was comfortable, and it's not. And so because I'd ask, I'd ask a lot of people that question. Uh, and then an ergonomist, a friend of mine, I told him this story, and he said, "Bob, you're asking the wrong question." So I asked my friends, I, I asked strangers in offices. You know, if there's some, a stranger in an office who's hunched over their desk like that, which is pretty much everybody, I'd, I'd go over to them and I, and I'd say, "Oh, excuse me. That's a cool chair. What, what kind of chair is that?" And that was just to break the ice so I, I wouldn't look like an idiot asking the next question.

   15. CWChris Williamson11:57

       [laughs]

   16. BKBob King11:57

       And they'd invariably say, "Oh, I'm not sure." And I'd say, "Hey, I'm curious, how do you lean back in that chair?" 'Cause that's what he told me to ask. "How do you lean back in that chair?" What I found shocked the hell out of me. What I found was that literally no one-Maybe someone in facilities or a professional. But outside of that, no one knew how to lean back in their chair. Everybody said, "Oh, you know, it's one of these levers here. I, I, I have the instructions in the drawer," or something like that.

   17. CWChris Williamson12:26

       Hmm.

   18. BKBob King12:27

       And I thought, "Oh my God, this is crazy. That's why people are sitting this way. The chair's locked. Nobody knows how to operate the controls."

   19. CWChris Williamson12:34

       So it's user error.

   20. BKBob King12:35

       You can't... I would say design error.

   21. CWChris Williamson12:38

       Right. Right. Yeah.

   22. BKBob King12:39

       I'd say design error. No one knows how to. So what do you do? You can't sit bolt upright for very long. You, you, your muscles start getting tired really quickly, and you, you very quickly go into this posture.

   23. CWChris Williamson12:47

       Hmm.

   24. BKBob King12:48

       And it's perfectly natural. Or your chair's unlocked, it flops back, doesn't support you. You get in that posture s- even sooner. So I thought, "Wow, that's the problem." The complexity of chairs, I think, is a considerable contributor to the, to the issue of lack of movement. Because you can't move. Your, your chair's locked. You, you're locked as well.

   25. CWChris Williamson13:07

       Okay. So sit-stand desk, or have another environment that you can work. If you don't wanna get a sit-stand desk, presumably you could go from your seated desk to the kitchen counter-

   26. BKBob King13:18

       Right

   27. CWChris Williamson13:18

       ... or to... Like we've got in here, we've got this sort of high bench-

   28. BKBob King13:21

       Right

   29. CWChris Williamson13:21

       ... that allows people to go to if they don't wanna adjust their desk, or let's say that we didn't have them, even though that we do. Uh, second thing, get a chair which is sufficiently simple that you understand how to use it.

   30. BKBob King13:31

       Right.
5. 16:28 – 18:44

   Is the Freedom Chair Named After Obama?

   1. CWChris Williamson16:29

      You supplied Obama with his chair, right? That he used in office for a good while.

   2. BKBob King16:32

      He apparently bought a chair from us. I didn't know that until I saw a picture of him on TV one day-

   3. CWChris Williamson16:38

      Hmm

   4. BKBob King16:38

      ... when he was doing an ad, I think. Uh, and i- in his home office, he's, he sits in a Freedom headrest. Uh, so a huge number of world leaders, business leaders sit in Freedom headrests, and it's none of our doing. I wish I could say we were sharp e- f- smart enough to figure that out-

   5. CWChris Williamson16:55

      Hmm

   6. BKBob King16:55

      ... how we got them to get our chairs, but-

   7. CWChris Williamson16:57

      Hmm

   8. BKBob King16:57

      ... the people just, just figured it out by themselves, which is kinda cool, so.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:00

      You know, when I saw it, I understand Freedom, uh, you don't need to be overcomplicated in the chair, et cetera. I assumed, wrongly, when I first saw it, that you'd named the Freedom Chair after the fact that Obama used it.

   10. BKBob King17:12

       No, no, no, no.

   11. CWChris Williamson17:12

       You know, as in the Freedom Chair.

   12. BKBob King17:14

       Yeah. We came out... We, we launched the Freedom Chair in '99 when Bill Clinton was in the office.

   13. CWChris Williamson17:20

       Okay. Yeah, that would've maybe been called a different kinda chair if he'd have signed it.

   14. BKBob King17:23

       Yeah. [laughs]

   15. CWChris Williamson17:25

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6. 18:44 – 22:06

   Why Movement is a Non-Negotiable

   1. CWChris Williamson18:44

      at checkout. Um, Columbia University study that I came across found that people who took a f- slow five-minute walk every 30 minutes experienced an almost 60% reduction in blood sugar spikes after eating, and even just one minute of movement every 30 minutes lowered blood pressure. This is all just playing into your move-

   2. BKBob King19:03

      W- we've, we've always believed in movement, getting... allowing people to move. If you allow people to move, they move. It's natural for-- people don't like to sit perfectly still.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:12

      Mm.

   4. BKBob King19:12

      If you give them the freedom, if you will-

   5. CWChris Williamson19:14

      Mm-hmm

   6. BKBob King19:15

      ... to move, they, they'll, they'll move, and that's, that's what, that's what we do with chairs. Um, a- after, after many years, I, I wasn't able to find a designer who had any idea what I was talking about when I said, "We need a chair that's easy to use so people can move without thinking too hard about it."

   7. CWChris Williamson19:31

      Mm.

   8. BKBob King19:31

      And no one r- no, no one really had an idea about that.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:34

      What are the most common posture myths that you see?

   10. BKBob King19:38

       Well, the one, one myth is that, that there are postures, uh, that are good and you should stick with that. Um, it's not about posture, it's about movement.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:48

       Right.

   12. BKBob King19:49

       Um, you can, you can pick any posture you want. Well, that's, that's not really true. You, you wanna move from one posture to another. That's the most important thing you can do. Posture-wise, uh, leaning forward like this and bending your spine forward like that is n- one of the worst things you can do for, for musculoskeletal health, for your shoulders, your neck, your... obviously your spine. That's-- you don't wanna be in that posture. There's more stress on the spine if you do that than almost any other posture.

   13. CWChris Williamson20:19

       Mm.

   14. BKBob King20:20

       Um, sitting upright is much better, but not great. Because now all... I mean, you're perfectly upright, all of your weight, of course, goes right down your body and fully loads your spine, uh, right into your sitting bones. What I will say is watch what happens when you lean back. Now your weight is distributed to the backrest of the chair and not so much straight down your spine. So the more you lean back, the less stress you have on your spine.

   15. CWChris Williamson20:49

       Mm.

   16. BKBob King20:50

       Uh, if you lean back enough, you'll be laying on a bed and you have almost no stress on your spine.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:54

       No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   18. BKBob King20:55

       So there's a famous quote by Niels Diffrient, who designed our, our chairs, uh, that, um, I forget it exactly, but some... it, it, it came to the point where he said, "But the, the best chair is a bed," which is, which is ridiculous 'cause it's not a chair, it's a bed. But the more you re- but he was pointing out that the more you recline, the, the less stra- stress there is, uh, on your spine.

   19. CWChris Williamson21:17

       Hmm. Well, maybe that would... I don't know whether people have dev- developed bed desks, but I imagine that-

   20. BKBob King21:23

       Oh, they... don't worry, they have plenty of those. Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson21:25

       Okay. Yeah. Very good. Very good.

   22. BKBob King21:26

       I'm sure... I'm not sure those are, are, are so great for you either, I'm not sure.

   23. CWChris Williamson21:29

       They're not gonna take off. Um, so is most posture advice nonsense then if it's not talking about just keep moving?

   24. BKBob King21:38

       No, no. I mean, y- you... th- no, they're not, not just nonsense. I mean, hunching forward like this is, is something you should avoid.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:44

       Mm.

   26. BKBob King21:44

       Uh, for sure. Uh, there's a number of things that you should avoid. Leaning back is, is good. The, the more you lean back, the better. I would... I, I, I would say just be natural and, and I think it's very natural to lean back and, you know, do a Zoom call leaning back.

   27. CWChris Williamson22:02

       Mm.

   28. BKBob King22:03

       Rather than... you don't want to just... you typically wouldn't do a Zoom call leaning forward.

7. 22:06 – 30:11

   How Your Environment Controls Your Habits

   1. CWChris Williamson22:06

      How much of human behavior is dictated by the environment versus discipline? Uh, do, do you think that environments shape behavior more than willpower does?

   2. BKBob King22:15

      Well, everyone would have a different opinion on that, Chris, of course. I believe very strongly that environment drives behavior. Um, I, I don't think, I don't think many of us are, are truly disciplined day to day.

   3. CWChris Williamson22:28

      Hmm.

   4. BKBob King22:28

      Some people are, and it's good to be disciplined. I try to be disciplined. Sometimes I'm disciplined, sometimes I'm not. But, but if you have the right environment, that can drive the right behavior.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:40

      How so?

   6. BKBob King22:41

      Well, a chair. Uh, if you have a chair, a traditional chair, if you look at the internet and you see all these chairs for sale, they all have locks on them, so you can lock them in place. They all have knobs to adjust the recline tension on the backrest. They all have all these manual controls. If you are truly disciplined, you would... you could operate these controls. So to lean back in a traditional chair, the chairs you see on the internet for sale, if you wanted to lean back, say, say you got a phone call and you wanna chat with somebody, you'd first lean forward, get all your weight off the backrest, 'cause there's a safety lock on all chairs. There has to be, 'cause the tension might be set incorrectly. Then while you're leaning forward, you reach back and operate a control, a knob or a lever, [chuckles] and release it, and then you could lean back and then take your call or, or read a document. And then to sit up, you do the same thing in reverse. Weight forward, click the, uh, the control back where it started. You... If you were truly disciplined, you could do that regularly and get all the movement you need.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:41

      Mm.

   8. BKBob King23:42

      But the data, the da- data tells us, and just pure observation tells us, that no one does that. So discipline or no discipline, no one's doing it. But if you sit in a chair that, that, that allows you to move freely, it's, it's very common. We see, we see people lean back and chat.

   9. CWChris Williamson24:00

      Mm.

   10. BKBob King24:01

       Lean back and read a document, sit up and work on the computer, and, and move. Getting the obstacles of movement out of the way is the, is the key to the whole thing.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:08

       What does that do to productivity, efficiency, mood?

   12. BKBob King24:14

       Well, it's obviously... I, I haven't seen any hard data on, on that, because there's not a lot of chairs that do that. I mean, we pioneered that whole concept. We... I say we, with our designer, uh, Niels Diffrient, a brilliant designer, the last of the mid-century modernists. We were very blessed to, to work with him for 16 years, uh, uh, until he passed away. Um-It's, um, there's, there's no hard da- There is some data. We've, we've got... There's a couple of studies out there that have said that if you... The simpler a chair is to use, the, the fewer musculoskeletal, um, incidents you have. Um, I haven't seen anything on mood, but people are, are... say they're more comfortable, and there's, there's fewer musculoskeletal injuries.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:58

       Mm. Well, I have to assume physical discomfort degrades cognitive performance. If you were trying to work and I just kept nipping the back of your calf the entire time, I don't think I'd be able to get that much work done.

   14. BKBob King25:07

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson25:07

       And the small insults like that that happen all the time. I mean, I think about some of the places that I've worked back in the day. Like, the, some of the old chairs that we would have had in our office when I was running nightclubs, and we would get something off Facebook Marketplace or c- c- cafes that I've worked at. I mean, some European cafe with my laptop out on a wrought iron outdoor... You know, having a l- wonderful cappuccino or an espresso or something like that, and I'm sat on something that looks like it was made to be the front gate of a British, British house.

   16. BKBob King25:40

       Yeah. No, that's not... That's gonna be distracting. But also, if you're sitting in one posture, I think you don't... Your blood flow is less. Your, your... When you don't move, your, your, your, your blood flow slows down.

   17. CWChris Williamson25:50

       Thought, thought on that-

   18. BKBob King25:51

       Uh, so there's, there's all of those things

   19. CWChris Williamson25:53

       ... if you're in an uncomfortable seat, it might cause you to move more.

   20. BKBob King25:57

       There you go. [laughs]

   21. CWChris Williamson25:57

       So I wonder if some seats that are uncomfortable would increase your discomfort but also increase your movement.

   22. BKBob King26:04

       They might.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:04

       So maybe it would be better for you from a cardiovascular standpoint than it would be to be in a comfortable but locked chair.

   24. BKBob King26:12

       Well, true, except, except that it, it, it'll change... You, you might move less, but you might move... You might move more, but you might move more in a really awkward posture, like hunched forward-

   25. CWChris Williamson26:22

       Ah, right. Interesting

   26. BKBob King26:23

       ... uh, if you can't, if you can't lean back. I don't know. I haven't seen that one.

   27. CWChris Williamson26:26

       Yeah.

   28. BKBob King26:27

       But basically, you want to allow people to move. You want to get rid of those obstacles. Uh, and, and you want to encourage, encourage people to move, but again, by getting rid of these obstacles. In, in, in, in our chairs, you can just move from one position to another without thinking about it. If you have a height-adjustable desk, that takes discipline. You have to say, "All right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna stand up every once an hour for 10 minutes," and, and, uh, that's it.

   29. CWChris Williamson26:51

       You know what would be fun? Would be to make a sit-stand desk that you could put a timer on.

   30. BKBob King26:56

       Well, no, that's very interesting you say that.
8. 30:11 – 43:46

   Is Screen Time Ruining Your Health?

   1. CWChris Williamson30:11

      Talk to me about eye health because this is something, kind of a- an unseen challenge. I, I... Actually, Jerry, can you ask Chad what the, uh, rates of eye problems are, uh, over time? Like, are they getting worse due to screen use? Is there any data around that? That'd be great to find out. Thank you to our partner, ChatGPT.

   2. BKBob King30:33

      The interesting thing with what you said, though, is that, is that-The world is becoming more complex. We're dealing with the software on phones, software on computers.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:42

      Hmm.

   4. BKBob King30:43

      And yet we have now-- And we have chairs. Most companies when they, when they get chairs, and most individuals when they get chairs, they teach people how to use their chairs.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:53

      Hmm.

   6. BKBob King30:54

      How to operate these knobs and levers. I think that's totally wrong. I think it's super important that people... As the world becomes more complex, things become simpler, and, and chairs and things like that work for you automatically.

   7. CWChris Williamson31:08

      Look at that. So myopia rates have been increasing globally, especially in children and young adults. Some projections suggest forty to fifty percent of the world may be myopic by twenty fifty. Large meta-analysis of three hundred and thirty-five thousand people. Every hour a day of screen time increase is around a twenty-one percent higher odds of myopia, and risk rises sharply between one to four hours a day. Almost doubles by the time you get to four hours. This is one of the strongest overtime findings. As exposure to screens has increased, myopia prevalence has risen in parallel, especially in kids. Go down a bit more for me, Jared. Okay, dry eyes. I've seen that one before. Keep going. It's debated. Myopia. Screens themselves may not be the only cause. Reduced out-outdoor time, near work, anything up close, just not screen. Yeah, I suppose if you... Unless there's something special about screens, if you just spent a ton of time reading something at distance. Screens are particularly harmful because they replace outdoor exposure which protect eye development, and the overtime pattern. So yeah, massive increase in daily screen time, parallel rise in myopia in the two thousands to the twenty twenties and the smartphone. Less than an hour a day near baseline risk, one to three hours a day noticeable increase, and four plus hours a day sharply higher risk, especially for myopia. Yes, eye problems have increased. What do we do about this?

   8. BKBob King32:26

      Uh, that's my-- not my, not my area, Chris. [chuckles] Sorry.

   9. CWChris Williamson32:30

      Well, I've got... Okay.

   10. BKBob King32:30

       But, but I... It's a huge issue, but it's not something that we, that we've addressed.

   11. CWChris Williamson32:34

       Okay. Well, I've got the, the only thing that I know from this, which was episode twenty or something. You'll be episode one thousand one hundred and twenty. I'm really digging into the archives. So there's, uh, something called, interesting, called the twenty/twenty/twenty rule. So for twenty minutes, every twenty minutes, for twenty seconds, you look at something that is more than twenty feet away. And unfortunately, what I realized, 'cause I was doing the Pomodoro Technique at the same time, so that's twenty-five minutes on with a five-minute break, doing blocks of that, and then a bigger break, and then coming back. And then also I was thinking about needing to sit and stand at the same time. So I've got this endless fucking spirograph of intersecting timings that I need to do. I've got this, like, endless amount of different interval. Okay, well, it's twenty minutes I need to look at something, and in five minutes I'll take a break, and then I... da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like, it bec- it becomes a little bit difficult to try and do this. And it's what we said before, that humans maybe aren't meant to do this kind of work. And what ergonomics is trying to do is to create a good solution to an artificial problem. And, uh, yeah, that, that... At my most complex, at my sort of most sterile and ridiculous, um, the office that I was working in in Newcastle, we all had different bings and bongs and timers going off on our phones to remind us that we needed to stand up or go for a walk, or remind us that we needed to look at something that was more than twenty feet away. So I'm coming in, when I first start the podcast, I'm coming into this office filled with eighteen, nineteen, twenty-year-old kids. And I'm going, "I just learned about the David Allen getting things done. I, I, I've just done Tiago Forte's External Brain. I've got to show you this notion, this Evernote template. Let me show you how you can capture all of the thoughts that you have." And these kids are made of rubber and magic. They don't care.

   12. BKBob King34:18

       No.

   13. CWChris Williamson34:18

       They don't care what I've got to say.

   14. BKBob King34:19

       No, that's right.

   15. CWChris Williamson34:20

       They didn't care at all, dude.

   16. BKBob King34:21

       No, kids don't care. They, they, th-they're indestructible.

   17. CWChris Williamson34:24

       Correct.

   18. BKBob King34:24

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson34:24

       They're literally indestructible. So I'm like, "Okay, well, I am trying to do it." But after a while, they're like, "Well, the boss says that I'm-- he's doing it, so maybe it'll be good for me to do." And before I knew it, I was like, you... Oh, it was so over complex. But at the same time, if you don't do it, then yeah, you end up with this situation where you think... I mean, I was talking to a, I had a streamer sat here, Nick Nocturnal, great musician streamer. And he was saying to me that there was days that he would work on music, 'cause he w- he would write music live, and, uh, there would be days where he wouldn't see sun. He wouldn't see the sunlight. He wouldn't go outside-

   20. BKBob King34:59

       Yeah

   21. CWChris Williamson34:59

       ... at all during the day. And that's just, you know, k- on one hand, very disciplined, like really grinding. He's incredibly successful. He's done really great, and now he's got this house with his wife and everything's going wonderful. You think, look at the benefits that this world that you've constructed has afforded you. But then also all of the costs are hidden. You know, the costs of your eyes degrading over time, the cost of your cardiovascular degradation, et cetera, et cetera.

   22. BKBob King35:28

       Yeah, it's, uh, that's an interesting point. Most people work in-indoors all the time under artificial light. That's not much different than working in darkness. Artificial light generally is very far removed from, from real sunlight.

   23. CWChris Williamson35:43

       Hmm.

   24. BKBob King35:43

       So people work, work indoors, and it has huge health implications. Um, the, the main problem with it is sleep. If you're, if... There's clear data on this. If you work outdoors, you're, you're healthier, you live longer, primarily because you sleep better.

   25. CWChris Williamson36:03

       No way.

   26. BKBob King36:04

       Then-

   27. CWChris Williamson36:04

       That's what the link is? There's nothing special about the al fresco thing?

   28. BKBob King36:07

       There may be-

   29. CWChris Williamson36:07

       Or maybe there is a little bit

   30. BKBob King36:08

       ... there may be some other things too.
9. 43:46 – 45:10

   Sunlight vs Blue Light: What’s Worse?

   1. CWChris Williamson43:46

      Uh, have you looked at anything to do with, uh, like f.lux and apps like that that kill some of the blue light from screens?

   2. BKBob King43:54

      Yeah, those have been around for a, for a long time. Everybody has access to that.

   3. CWChris Williamson43:57

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BKBob King43:58

      And, and I, I don't know, I haven't seen any data on it, but probably, probably a good thing. I mean, blue light isn't great. But this, this is pointing out that blue light from your screen isn't that big a deal.

   5. CWChris Williamson44:07

      Not for the melatonin.

   6. BKBob King44:08

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson44:08

      I wonder whether there's something else that's going on, uh, the dryness in the eyes. But again, uh, maybe there's-- maybe academics since the beginning of time, you know, d- dusty librarians that have been looking at books up close, perhaps they have also been suffering with this thing, too. I don't know. Maybe there's something more active because you're still reading on a screen. I don't know. I can't look it up.

   8. BKBob King44:27

      I'm sure, I'm sure there's, there's, there's issues there. Um, I mean, one of the, the real big problems with your eyes, uh, if you were to develop like glaucoma or one of these things that can, can cause a long-term loss of vision, um, my-- I just know this because my optometrist keeps telling me about it, is exposure to sunlight without protection.

   9. CWChris Williamson44:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BKBob King44:48

       You know, when you're, when you're out during the day and the sun is very bright, it's very damaging to your eyes. Every-everyone I'm talking to says wear sunglasses.

   11. CWChris Williamson44:54

       Yep.

   12. BKBob King44:54

       So I'm very careful to wear sunglasses.

   13. CWChris Williamson44:56

       Hmm.

   14. BKBob King44:57

       In fact, you can... They, they can see the damage when they look at your eyes when you go for an eye exam and, and they'll say, "Oh, that's sun damage." So I think it's really important to wear sunglasses certainly outside. But again, that's not, that's not my area of expertise, but...

10. 45:10 – 51:45

    Do Men and Women Need Different Work Setups?

    1. CWChris Williamson45:10

       When you look at the work environments for men and women, are there any sex differences for what men need and what women need? Have you split this off by gender?

    2. BKBob King45:21

       Well, n-no. We look at... When it comes to gender, we look at, we look at size, uh, and we think it's really important. A lot of products are designed by men and es- essentially for men. Es- you know, it's, it's kind of weird, but you could look at a chair and say, "That's a very masculine chair." In fact, most chairs-

    3. CWChris Williamson45:43

       You mean by color? Uh-

    4. BKBob King45:45

       No, just the way it looks, the way it's designed.

    5. CWChris Williamson45:47

       Okay.

    6. BKBob King45:47

       It's designed in a, in a, in, in a, in a rough, um, kinda, kind of, um, heavy way.

    7. CWChris Williamson45:53

       Mm-hmm.

    8. BKBob King45:54

       Whereas other chairs you, you would say are more neutral. We, we are very careful to design everything we do in a neutral way.

    9. CWChris Williamson46:01

       Is that aesthetic or functionality?

    10. BKBob King46:04

        Um, it's both, of course. Aesthetic for sure, uh, and fu- but function as well. And-

    11. CWChris Williamson46:10

        Jared actually optimizes for a feminine chair, don't you?

    12. BKBob King46:13

        Yes.

    13. CWChris Williamson46:13

        At any point, there's-

    14. BKBob King46:14

        [laughs]

    15. CWChris Williamson46:14

        ... you've got to try and offset that mustache.

    16. BKBob King46:16

        It's, uh, it's, it's interesting. It-- When you think about it, how do we design things for humans? We take the average female, we take the average male, we average them together to get the average human, and we design for the average human. On the whole planet, there isn't a perfectly average human, so we're, we're designing for this mythical being. Um, that's problematic in itself because the further you happen to be from being perfectly average, the worse your experience is with that particular-

    17. CWChris Williamson46:42

        Hmm

    18. BKBob King46:42

        ... product. And that's, that's one of the things that we, we think a lot about. Niels, Niels Diffrient, who designed our chairs, who's quite brilliant, um, he, he designed the chairs so that basically the reason it doesn't have all the knobs and levers is simple. Every chair has a spring under it and a, a knob to control the f- force on the spring and a lock to lock it. He got rid of all that. He got rid of the spring, got rid of everything, and he just used the weight of whoever happens to sit on the chair as a counterbalance. The linkage just transfers a percentage of the weight to the backrest as a counterforce.

    19. CWChris Williamson47:15

        Hmm.

    20. BKBob King47:16

        So that means if a light woman, a 20 percentile female sits in it, in the chair, it uses her weight to create the recline force for her specifically.

    21. CWChris Williamson47:26

        Hmm.

    22. BKBob King47:27

        If a 90 percentile male sits in it, does the same for that person.

    23. CWChris Williamson47:30

        Jared.

    24. BKBob King47:30

        So that's what, that's what, uh, that, that's what I think is really important when it comes to, to gender. I mean, people are very... Men and women are very different. The average male and average female are very different-

    25. CWChris Williamson47:42

        Mm-hmm

    26. BKBob King47:42

        ... physiologically.

    27. CWChris Williamson47:43

        You, you know that study around the f- uh, fighter pilot seats, right? The wh- this sort of thing that you're referencing there, that if you try and design for the average, you design for nobody. So I think it was US government or the US military were trying to, uh, work out what proportions a particular fighter jet seat needed to be. And they put millions and millions of dollars into aggregating all of this stuff, and it turned out that zero fighter pilots could get into it. None.

    28. BKBob King48:09

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson48:09

        They'd designed for average, which meant they'd actually designed for nobody.

    30. BKBob King48:12

        Right. Which is, which is what... That's how everything is designed.
11. 51:45 – 52:50

    Can Saddle Stools Fix Your Posture?

    1. BKBob King51:45

       concept.

    2. CWChris Williamson51:45

       What about saddle stools? I've seen those around a lot. We have some in the office.

    3. BKBob King51:49

       We have-

    4. CWChris Williamson51:49

       People like those.

    5. BKBob King51:50

       They, they're... Yeah, a, a good saddle stool is great. Those... Niels developed a, a saddle stool. In fact, I think he might have been the first to do a saddle stool. Uh, and the saddle stool, um, it's shaped like a s- kind of like a saddle or also like a triangle. Ours was more like a triangle, but it, it, it means you, you basically have l- one leg over e- each side of a saddle type thing, and that encourages you to drop your thighs down f- um, in front of you. And drop, by dropping your thighs down, it puts your, your back in a healthy lordotic, I recall it's called-

    6. CWChris Williamson52:21

       It's really hard to sit on a saddle stool with a curved spine. You feel like you're-

    7. BKBob King52:26

       Yeah

    8. CWChris Williamson52:26

       ... you, you, it's like being a-

    9. BKBob King52:27

       That's right

    10. CWChris Williamson52:27

        ... a fucking question mark or something.

    11. BKBob King52:28

        Once your thighs drop down, it's really hard to hunch forward, and it's... it puts you in a really healthy posture. So those are, those are really... We're... A lot of labs are going... use those and that sort of thing. It's good for individual too, but I think it doesn't encourage you to move, though. I think, uh, long-term sitting, you wouldn't wanna be in a s- in a, in a stool. You'd wanna be in a chair.

    12. CWChris Williamson52:47

        You should see Jared. He's whizzing around the office on his stool all

12. 52:50 – 55:25

    What an Optimal Workday Actually Looks Like

    1. CWChris Williamson52:50

       the time.

    2. BKBob King52:50

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson52:50

       What, what do you think, um, a biologically aligned workday would look like?

    4. BKBob King52:56

       What do you mean by that, Chris?

    5. CWChris Williamson52:57

       Something that's going to maximize somebody's longevity. They, they've, they've, they've got a normal office job. They've got the, the stuff that they need to do, but from an ergonomics perspective, from a movement perspective, you know, here's your eight hours. This is what this would look like.

    6. BKBob King53:13

       Um, obviously moving. Um, I think if you have a sit-stand desk and you use it, that's gonna be... that's really healthy. It's good for your muscles. It's good, good for longevity. Uh, a chair that allows you to move from one position to another without thinking about it, so you're... while you're sitting, you're moving. You, you know, when you're standing, you're, you're moving. Um, and then encourage people... Again, this takes discipline and, and, and only a small number of people are disciplined. You're, you're obviously a very disciplined person, but most people aren't. Um, go for a walk. Go for a walk around the office and chat with people-

    7. CWChris Williamson53:47

       Hmm

    8. BKBob King53:47

       ... every couple hours. Hard to... Again, it takes a bit of discipline, but that's really important. Then the other thing a- about that too, though, is, you know, I always worried, we always worried about people sitting in a healthy way, allowing people to move, sit-stand desks, making sure your monitor is in the right position, 'cause if your monitor is on the front of your desk, you're not gonna lean back too much because you, you have to be a certain distance away from your monitor to read it. So we think it's really important to have the monitor on an arm. Most... Almost every large company has a, a monitor arm so you can move the monitor, just like, just like this microphone is on an arm. This arm is actually very similar to the arms we make for, for, uh, monitors. Um, so those things are really important, and we used to think and continue to think a lot about that. But then I started thinking about other things. I started thinking about all the other things that impact people's health in the office.And, and one, one really important thing is indoor air. Indoor air is incredibly unhealthy-

    9. CWChris Williamson54:50

       Hmm

    10. BKBob King54:50

        ... as you, as you probably know.

    11. CWChris Williamson54:51

        Mm-hmm.

    12. BKBob King54:52

        And the reason it's unhealthy is we have all this stuff in it, and all this stuff off-gases chemicals and carcinogens. And I, I, I had a bit of an epiphamy- epiphany, um, at one point when I started reading about that and reading about how all this stuff off-gases, and I thought, "That's, that's something that needs to be addressed." And, and we, we looked really hard at that, and that's... We lead our business, we l- lead the business of furni- office furniture and, and even home furniture in, in getting rid of the chemistry that, that

13. 55:25 – 1:05:53

    The Hidden Danger of Off-Gassing

    1. BKBob King55:25

       off-gases.

    2. CWChris Williamson55:26

       What's the biggest cause of it? C- I get the sense, great, that you're not off-gassing from being sat on a seat that's slowly leaking particulates into your brain. What about paint in buildings? What about the stuff that you guys don't maybe... Uh, uh, do you make carpets? Do you make... Uh, uh, where is most of this-

    3. BKBob King55:45

       Right

    4. CWChris Williamson55:45

       ... coming? What are the places that people should be looking at as the prime culprits for off-gassing in their house?

    5. BKBob King55:49

       I mean, carpeting, carpeting is, is certainly one. Um, uh, paint is another. And there's a big movement now... And by the way, desking is another.

    6. CWChris Williamson55:59

       Hmm.

    7. BKBob King56:00

       Pretty much every desk is made out of MDF, b- medium-density fiberboard. Just ground up sawdust and glued together. All of, all that stuff has formaldehyde in it, a lot of formaldehyde, and that formaldehyde off-gases. Uh, carpets have all kinds of VOCs and off-gas. Um, there's a big movement now to have ingredients labels on your, on your products. Uh, Declare and HPD are the two standard ingredients labels.

    8. CWChris Williamson56:31

       Hmm.

    9. BKBob King56:31

       Just like food, food labels. There was a big movement, well, it must've been 30 years ago, to have ingredients labels on food, so now every- anything you drink or eat has an ingredients label. Um, so you can make a decision about... a thoughtful decision about do you wanna buy that product and put it in your body?

    10. CWChris Williamson56:49

        Hmm.

    11. BKBob King56:51

        Historically, products that go into your home or office don't have ingredients labels. And, and, uh, there was an article about this, oh, a couple y- probably, like, 10 years ago, and they a- they brought this topic up to, uh, one of the largest furniture companies in the world. Uh, I won't mention who it is just to, to... not to embarrass them, but the, uh-

    12. CWChris Williamson57:11

        Do it. Throw them under the bus. They don't care. [laughs]

    13. BKBob King57:13

        [laughs] No, they'll get mad at me. But it's... It, it... Basically, it doesn't matter who it is. All the large furniture companies, uh, in the world essentially, um, have fought not to put ingredients labels on, on their products. So this, this executive said, and it's quoted in the magazine. He said, "It's ridiculous to put ingredients labels on, uh, on furniture, since last time I checked, we didn't eat the furniture." And I thought that was the, the, the, the most self-serving, uh, thing you could ever say.

    14. CWChris Williamson57:43

        Hmm. Hmm.

    15. BKBob King57:43

        We don't eat it, but we breathe it.

    16. CWChris Williamson57:45

        Yeah. Yeah.

    17. BKBob King57:46

        We breathe it, and that's, um, that's, that's an issue. So there's a huge movement. Google, for example. Google, Harvard University, a bunch of, a bunch of organizations now have said they won't consider a product for their, for their office or, or, or, or, or their dorm or anything unless it comes with an ingredients label, a Declare or HPD label-

    18. CWChris Williamson58:05

        Hmm

    19. BKBob King58:05

        ... which is a really important movement, and it's, it's happening more and more. Um, designers are saying they won't, they won't spec a product unless it has an ingredients label, and it's pushing folks to do the right thing.

    20. CWChris Williamson58:16

        I mean, there's enough issues. Since living in Austin, the, the, the... This country's great, but the building materials that you use are primitive. It's wood. It's timber.

    21. BKBob King58:27

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson58:27

        And it gets wet and hot and wet and hot and wet and hot, and then it gets wet and hot and insulated and contained inside of cavity walls, and it's just a breeding ground for mold, so-

    23. BKBob King58:39

        Mo- mold is, mold is a big problem, yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson58:41

        It's huge, and that's why we've got, we've got these JASPR air filter things. They're everywhere inside of this office because I lived in a house when I first moved out of an Airbnb that I was in. The first house I ever lived in properly in Austin infected me with toxic mold, and I'm still detoxing from that.

    25. BKBob King58:59

        No, mold, I've heard terrible stories about mold. Mold is, mold is very, is very dangerous.

    26. CWChris Williamson59:03

        It is no joke.

    27. BKBob King59:04

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson59:04

        And I... The, the stupid thing is I, I actually feel like it's karmic justice because Michaela Peterson, Jordan's daughter, she whined about mold all the time, and we'd be catching up or whatever, and she'd be talking about how we're going to this new house and it's mold and I've got headaches and I'm tired and whatever, and I was like, "Oh, God." It's like, uh, you- penicil- oh, you've got defeated by penicillin. Throw the bread out. Like, just making jo- And then sure enough, the universe decided to deliver to me the... this, like, nut kick from infinity, uh, just going like, "Oh, you thought that this was funny?" And then sure enough, I got popped with the same thing, and now I'm like, "Dude, mo- I gotta tell you about the mold. It's, it's so horrible. You need to get the filter." So yeah, it's, uh-

    29. BKBob King59:44

        Yeah, mold, mold is serious business. But by the way, other people have had similar, similar experiences with, with chemistry, um, that they breathe. PFAS.

    30. CWChris Williamson59:55

        Hmm.
14. 1:05:53 – 1:06:29

    Where to Find Bob

    1. CWChris Williamson1:05:53

       live longer as well. Bob, you're awesome. I love your stuff. Thank you for fueling the country with your, uh, your furniture. Where should people go to check out more of the things that you're doing?

    2. BKBob King1:06:02

       Um, you know, we don't do a lot of online sales. Um, but, but we, you can buy our chairs, uh, and our products online, so obviously humanscale.com. Uh, and, and we have offices. You can go there and see where the, our, our showrooms are.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:06:16

       Heck yeah.

    4. BKBob King1:06:17

       But thank you, Chris. It was really nice talking to you, so thanks for that.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:06:19

       Appreciate you, Bob. Bye, everyone. [outro music] Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, another one that I know you'll love is just here.

Episode duration: 1:06:31