The Hidden Psychology Of Highly Sensitive People - Dr Sasha Hamdani

1. 0:00 – 2:55

   Inside the Mind of an Emotionally Sensitive Person

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Hello, friends. I'm bringing a brand-new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's stories, psychology, audience Q&As, and whatever happens when thousands of over thinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last tour completely sold out, so make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already sold out. Loads of venues are limited. Tickets are very limited, so get yours now. Chriswilliamson.live. Why did you get interested in researching emotionally sensitive people?

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani0:30

      'Cause I am an emotionally sensitive person. [laughs] And I think also just from my body of work, seeing patients, you just start to see patterns of people becoming more or falling into the pattern of being emotionally sensitive.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:47

      And what does that look like? What's the experience of life like for someone who's an emotionally sensitive person?

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani0:52

      You know, I think it's different for each person, but I think one of the bigger overarching things is that these are the people who feel things quickly, deeply, and for a long time.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:03

      Okay. What would be the sort of way that they spend their days? Like, th- they're going about their day, what would be some of the habits, some of the mental, uh, experiences that they go through?

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:13

      Yeah. So I think a lot of times people with emotional sensitivity, because they're taking in so much emotional data, they are overanalyzing every interaction and reading it for, "Am I doing something weird? Is this other person doing something weird? Are you mad at me?" They're just interpreting and reevaluating every single interaction, which takes up a lot of brain power throughout the day.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:37

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:38

      The other thing that they do is you see a tremendous amount of time spent where you're already predicting that that could be an issue. So they are changing their behavior. They're masking behavior. They're overcompensating for certain things. So there's, there's work that's being done within interactions on a day-to-day basis, and there's stuff that they're also anticipating these possible interactions.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:59

      Oh, that's interesting. So even silence and in preparation, people are interpreting that with a particular lens as well.

   10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani2:07

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:09

       All right. That's interesting. What about criticism? What's the relationship like with criticism?

   12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani2:13

       I don't think anybody in the universe likes criticism. But I think when you look at rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is the neurological phenomenon we're talking about, it is this robust emotional, sometimes physical response to rejection or criticism. So it's not just like, "Ugh, okay, that happened and that really hurt my feelings and that sucks." It's, "I feel like the air has been pushed out of my lungs. I don't know if I can recover from this." And it becomes this thing that instead of being like, "Okay, well, I'm s- chewing on this and it's annoying," it becomes this thing that consumes them and can, i- be as significant as to look like a major depressive episode.

2. 2:55 – 5:40

   Is Rejection at the Heart of Emotional Sensitivity?

   1. CWChris Williamson2:55

      Hmm. It feels like a fear of disappointing other people is kind of quite central to this.

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani3:01

      Yeah, it can be.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:02

      Right. Why?

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani3:03

      I think it, it stems from this fear of rejection or criticism. So if you're gonna disappoint someone, you, you don't want that o- the other person to be upset with you. You don't want them to reject you. You don't want them to think badly of you. You don't want them to criticize you. And so you're dealing with this very complicated phenomenon that's coming at you, all of these emotions happening at once, and you're trying to process them in real time.

   5. CWChris Williamson3:27

      Is rejection sensitive dysphoria the same thing as being a highly sensitive person? Is there something like sufficient, necessary but not sufficient in here?

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani3:35

      [laughs] Well, okay, so here's my deal. So highly sensitive person, I mean, I think that was a, it's not a clinical term, but that, that came about, um, years and years ago. Uh, um, and it's talking about highly sensitive to everything. So not just emotions, but sounds, lights, everything you're sensitive to.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:54

      Okay.

   8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani3:56

      When I talk about rejection sensitive dysphoria, I'm putting that on a spectrum of emotional sensitivity. So in terms of there are some people that, you know, emotions and emotional data doesn't impact them that tremendously on a day-to-day basis, and they kind of roll along their day and, and maybe it could be a little bit off median, where they're like, "Hmm, you probably could [laughs] go for it being a little bit more emotional." Um, there's people who, you know, this, it, they have healthy ups and downs, and then there are other people who emotional data can just sink them-

   9. CWChris Williamson4:29

      Hmm

   10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani4:29

       ... with things which might be completely out of proportion to what the stimulus is happening.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:34

       Right. Okay. So when you've got highly sensitive people, they might be highly sensitive to emotions, but also light, sound, uh, busyness, chaos, et cetera.

   12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani4:45

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:45

       RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria-

   14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani4:48

       Yes

   15. CWChris Williamson4:48

       ... is specifically an emotional, uh, angle that we're looking at here. Why the word rejection sensitive? Why not emotionally sensitive dysphoria?

   16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani4:57

       That's a good question. I think, uh, you know, this, this term was coined by, uh, Dr. William Dodson, who was brilliant and brought this up. And I think when he was looking at that kind of longitudinal data with patients, a lot of them were responding to that rejection and that criticism that would trigger this kind of profound emotional response.

   17. CWChris Williamson5:17

       Hmm.

   18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani5:18

       Um, so I think those are two really big cases that it could happen. But, uh, you know, I, I think we need to start expanding and talking about emotional sensitivity just in general.

   19. CWChris Williamson5:30

       Hmm.

   20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani5:30

       Because then you can start talking about emotional dysregulation, and that really, I think, becomes one of the things that we have been missing talking about with ADHD and anxiety and things like that for years

3. 5:40 – 7:07

   Why Social Rejection Hurts So Much

   1. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani5:40

      and years and years.

   2. CWChris Williamson5:41

      Okay. Why does social rejection hurt so much?

   3. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani5:44

      Hmm. How much time do you have? [laughs] It's one of those things that, you know, it, you look at, um... There are many different reasons that this is so painful. Neurobiologically, there is inherently a dopamine imbalance. So what's happening is that your brain already is You know, struggling to emotionally regulate. So something happens and instead of being like, "Okay, we can work with this," it's just that you're shot down and you're right now... Then you get suspended in this low mood, highly anxious mood where you're spinning and chewing on this for hours and hours. Another reason this happens is that people who are highly emotionally sensitive, a lot of times there are two areas of the brain that are really impacted by this. The first one is the amygdala, which is your threat receptor. So that, in this, in these cases, is very highly attuned to picking up emotional data. So your brain is picking up this seemingly negative data, and then the frontal lobe, which is in charge of judgment and processing and decision-making, which should be able to be like, "This isn't that big of a deal," that isn't as active. So now you have this highly active threat receptor and this poorly responsive frontal lobe, and you're just, you're, that emotional train is running away.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:06

      Right. So,

4. 7:07 – 13:46

   What Actually Causes Emotional Sensitivity?

   1. CWChris Williamson7:08

      okay, explain to me the underlying neuroscience of why emotional sensitivity exists. Like, what is happening inside of the brain of somebody that is an emotionally sensitive person?

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani7:20

      So I think it depends on a lot of things. The f- first one is what I talked about, like that highly responsive amygdala and that poorly responsive frontal lobe. You have a, you know, you feel things before you actually think about them logically.

   3. CWChris Williamson7:33

      Mm. Mm-hmm.

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani7:34

      The second thing is dopamine dysregulation. Dopamine is that thing that helps you... It, it's very multifaceted. It helps with many different things, but when you feel things, you're less able to regulate because of that.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:48

      What's happening with the dopamine? Are these people with high dopamine baseline, with low dopamine baseline, with low catecholamine clearance? Like, what's going on?

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani7:54

      So I want to say low-

   7. CWChris Williamson7:57

      Right

   8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani7:57

      ... but it's not, it's not as simple as that. It's that there's not enough dopamine at the right place at the right time. So it's dysregulated.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:03

      And what would that do if they had that dopamine? It would help them to be able to weather the ups and downs?

   10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:08

       Regulate better.

   11. CWChris Williamson8:09

       Right. Okay. So you know the COMT-

   12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:11

       Mm-hmm

   13. CWChris Williamson8:12

       ... variant? Okay. So I'm COMT double A, right?

   14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:14

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson8:14

       So I've got two copies of it.

   16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:15

       Okay.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:15

       Um, and a bunch of others like that come along, pol- polymorphisms that come along with that similarly. That means that for me, if stuff's chaotic, it's really hard for me to focus.

   18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:24

       Yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:24

       But if things are a little bit more predictable and less ambiguous, it's hard to get me to stop.

   20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:29

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson8:29

       So for me, environment design's really important.

   22. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:32

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson8:32

       Um, but it also means I had this really great interaction with ChatGPT where I sent my genetic data to it and had a conversation with it, and I said, "Hey, imagine you know nothing about me. Tell me what sort of a person you think I would be just based on my genetic data."

   24. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:46

       Okay.

   25. CWChris Williamson8:46

       And it came back with all of these really interesting insights, and one of the things that it said was, "You would make a great detective and a, a horrible SWAT operator."

   26. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani8:55

       [laughs] Okay.

   27. CWChris Williamson8:55

       That someone who is in a relatively controlled environment focused on one quite complex task-

   28. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani9:02

       Mm-hmm

   29. CWChris Williamson9:02

       ... great. Someone who's got these big peaks and troughs of intensity and then has to come back down and then has to do it again-

   30. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani9:08

       Focus
5. 13:46 – 16:54

   Do Some People Feel Emotions More Intensely?

   1. CWChris Williamson13:46

      What about the limbic system?

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani13:48

      Yeah. Limbic system. So limbic system is important because that's really talking about, like, that emotional circuitry in general. And so when you are dealing with big emotional data that may or may not be justified, right? It, it may, might just be that you perceive to this rejection or criticism or emotional data coming in. Your limbic system just goes wild. Areas are lighting up. You're communicating as if, like, this big emotional response is happening, and you're trying to navigate that in real time.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:18

      Hmm. Is it right to say that some people feel emotions more than others?

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani14:22

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson14:22

      Is that a fair assessment?

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani14:24

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:24

      Okay, what do we mean when we say that?

   8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani14:26

      Well, I mean, if you think about, like, emotions in general, like when you're talking about feeling emotions, you're talking about perceiving them. That's the first step that happens. You're talking about then e- experiencing them in the moment, and then you're talking about how long you spend on that emotion afterwards, right?

   9. CWChris Williamson14:41

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani14:42

       So there are people that, you know, you can walk into a room and you already know something weird is happening. [laughs] You can feel, like, an emotional... And I t- I give the example of, like, someone walking into a room with, like, a complicated social interactions all over the place, and they can just... You know, they say to me, like, "Something feels off."

   11. CWChris Williamson15:02

       Yeah.

   12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:02

       Or, "There's, there's something in the air." They say something like that, and they're referring to, like, picking up... So because what they're doing is they're scanning the room. Not only are they listening to words that are coming out at them during immediate conversation, but they're looking at body position. They're looking at tone. They're looking at volume of voice.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:20

       Hmm.

   14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:20

       They're picking up all these different cues, amalgamating them, and, and sometimes for the negative.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:27

       Yeah. So the, it's interesting, the sort of noticing intensity and duration-

   16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:32

       Yeah

   17. CWChris Williamson15:32

       ... right? Of what we're talking about when it comes to emotional intensity.

   18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:36

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:36

       First off, you have to realize they're happening. Then it has to be how big does the feeling feel inside of you.

   20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:40

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson15:41

       That is, how many different cascades occur-

   22. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:43

       Okay [laughs]

   23. CWChris Williamson15:43

       ... inside of your brain and body to make you feel it, and then how long is the fall off after that happens?

   24. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:48

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson15:48

       Um, what's interesting, I suppose certain people walk into a room, they're hypervigilant, they're paying attention. They realize that, oh, this person's turned away a little bit, or they're blinking a bit more. I, or they don't even know what's happening, but there is just a sense-

   26. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani15:59

       Feeling it

   27. CWChris Williamson16:00

       ... that person doesn't feel too good. I suppose a lot of the time, kind of like a smoke detector principle, those people are going to perceive problems where there are none.

   28. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani16:08

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson16:09

       And that's when it becomes very maladaptive.

   30. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani16:11

       Mm-hmm.
6. 16:54 – 20:10

   How Hormones Shape Emotional Sensitivity

   1. CWChris Williamson16:54

      what... When you're thinking about, like, RSD, what other traits does it tend to be bundled in with?

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani17:03

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson17:03

      Are there other things that come, tend to come along for the ride?

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani17:07

      So with... Actually, I'm gonna go back, 'cause we forgot a huge thing that, uh, that happens in the brain as well, and that's hormones.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:15

      Okay.

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani17:15

      And we can talk about that later if you want to.

   7. CWChris Williamson17:18

      Tell me about hormones now.

   8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani17:19

      [laughs] Okay. So I, I wanted to talk about hormones because I think when you look at the brain in general, uh, I mean, there is not much else you can look at that would be equivalent to, like, this huge, it, it, that has the capacity to kind of change your entire system just globally from top to bottom. And, uh, hormones are something so interesting to look at, especially for females, because, like, for women, y- you're changing every month. You're changing when you're pregnant. You're changing when you're perimenopausal. You're changing when you have a kid. It's ju- like, you can have eight different versions of yourself. And, and with men, I mean, you deal with the hormonal stuff with like, as their testosterone drops or, and other things that are happening in real time. So hormones directly impact, like for example, with estrogen. Um, as your estrogen drops, your dopamine drops as well. And so then you're less able to regulate your emotions and things like that, and that's a huge, huge thing to bring up. It's an important factor in emotional sensitivity and rejection sensitivity. Because if for two weeks out of the month your d- estrogen level is intrinsically lower-

   9. CWChris Williamson18:25

      Hmm

   10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani18:25

       ... your dopamine level is lower and it's harder for you to regulate, it, uh, you're going to be more rejection sensitive, emotionally sensitive during those times.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:34

       Hmm. What- ... relationship does testosterone have to emotional sensitivity?

   12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani18:40

       Yeah, so testosterone is actually, it, it can be protective in that front, um, to a degree. It, it helps you feel alert and awake and might help you emotionally regulate and balance a little bit better. The problem is, is that sometimes as that testosterone drops, uh, as happens, you know, uh, 50s, 60s with males, sometimes you can ... Because of that drop in testosterone, you can feel this huge rise in emotional sensitivity, and a lot of men aren't equipped to deal with that.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:11

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7. 20:10 – 21:24

   Why Have Humans Evolved to Be So Sensitive?

   1. CWChris Williamson20:10

      Going back to why social rejection hurts so much.

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani20:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:14

      Right? From an adaptive standpoint, presumably I'm being kicked out of the tribe. There's only 30 people in my pod out of 150 Dunbar tribe that I'm a part of. If I'm on my own, I'm dead.

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani20:26

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson20:27

      Why would evolution create a brain that can be so devastated by criticism?

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani20:31

      [laughs] I don't know. I think ... So here's the deal. I don't think ... Like, if you were to ask me, w- it would ... Like, you, m- me, myself, I know that I'm emotionally sensitive. I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah, it's really difficult at times to be highly emotionally sensitive, but I think it makes me a better person. I think it makes me a better physician. I think it makes me a better parent. I think it makes me a better partner. I think being able to be highly attuned to emotional data and incoming information can be e- i- it could be one of the greatest signs of emotional intelligence you have. So I think that that's ... I, I wouldn't trade that emotional sensitivity. So yeah, I mean, uh, did evolution make a brain that can be [laughs] devastated by rejection? I mean, yes, but there's also some positives that

8. 21:24 – 31:59

   Are Men Just as Emotionally Sensitive?

   1. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani21:24

      come with that.

   2. CWChris Williamson21:24

      Okay. You talked about hormones then.

   3. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani21:26

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson21:27

      Does RSD look different in men?

   5. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani21:30

      Um, you want a weird answer for that?

   6. CWChris Williamson21:33

      Sure.

   7. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani21:34

      Okay. [laughs] I ... This is my soapbox for this. I think that looking at just, you know, uh, being a psychiatrist and seeing mental health just in general and seeing the progression of mental health, especially as we've talked about it a little bit more, you start to notice patterns. And as you look at male mental health, I think that we have done a huge disservice to men in terms of we don't educate men and help cultivate with men a lot of information about emotional sensitivity. And as a result, for a lot of men, they know how to target a couple emotions, and one of them being anger.

   8. CWChris Williamson22:13

      Yep.

   9. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani22:13

      So I think for a lot of men, you see men that have ... You know, they've been told, you know, "Just man up. This is not that big of a deal. Don't cry about it. Don't..." Like, y- y- they have been forced to suppress emotions, but the only socially acceptable emotion they're allowed to express is anger. I would say that some of that is probably misdirected or confusing signals of maybe emotional sensitivity.

   10. CWChris Williamson22:35

       Hmm. What happens when emotionally sensitive boys are told to man up?

   11. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani22:40

       I mean, that. You get really angry dudes. A- and I mean, it, it's just such a ... Like, I think as a parent who, um, has a son, um, it's weird because y- and maybe it's, this is, like, the mom son thing [laughs] that I'm so protective over him. Um, but you know, you see in other settings, and you s- you start to really zoom in and you look at how other people are, are, uh, bringing up their, their six-year-olds, their six-year-old boys. And even from a young age in the kindergarten class, you know, the way that the girls are treated in the class versus the boys are treated in the class, and not by the teacher, by, like, the parents. You look at it in birthday parties. You know, a, a girl will fall down, they're scooped up, they're, they're coddled. They're told, you know, everything's okay. A boy will fall down and it's like, "Oh, that's not that big of a deal."

   12. CWChris Williamson23:30

       Yeah.

   13. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani23:30

       You know, "Let's, let's move on from this." And it, it's, it just, it doesn't seem like ... Like, it's, like, from genesis. There's not, like, a huge spot where they can start to explore and really navigate emotional sensitivity well.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:45

       Yeah. I think emotionally sensitive women seem to have a bit more latitude and forgiveness to explore that kind of sensitivity than men do, especially as they get into adulthood. Like, I, uh, you know, I think you're right that it's weird. Anger is such an antisocial emotion.

   15. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:03

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson24:03

       Right? It's dangerous. It can be destructive. It's often not wanted by the people that are experiencing it, and they don't want the impact of it to happen.

   17. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:09

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson24:10

       But anger's, for many men, more socially acceptable than sadness.

   19. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:15

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson24:16

       And when you think about how antisocial anger is as an emotion, it really goes to show sort of how unaccepted sadness can be.

   21. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:23

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson24:23

       But yeah, you know, we talk a lot online about the importance of getting men to open up. I had a conversation, uh, two conversations this week talking about male suicide.

   23. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:32

       Mm.

   24. CWChris Williamson24:32

       And in both of them, there is this, "I just wish that this guy had reached out. I wish that he'd talked." But in Over 90% of cases where a man takes his own life in the UK, he's already gone to some form of mental health counseling.

   25. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:45

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson24:46

       So it's not just the talking about it thing, it's actually allowing, like giving room for men to be able to feel their feelings.

   27. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani24:53

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson24:53

       And I think that, to be honest, like a lot of the blame, a, a, lot of the work, not blame, a lot of the work here can be laid at other men's feet because everyone says they want their friend to open up, "If you're having a bad time that I really need you to, to talk to me," and this is al- easy to say after the fact, especially if something really dangerous or, or devastating's happened. But how many guys are supportive of another man on the internet that's opening up about how much he's struggling? Like, not, not to the Overton, emotional Overton window of acceptability, which is, you know, "Things are hard, but I'm getting back in the gym and I'm gonna put some muscle on," or whatever.

   29. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani25:29

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson25:30

       Like really broken down-
9. 31:59 – 35:49

   The Hidden Strengths of Emotional Sensitivity

   1. CWChris Williamson31:59

      for this. That's a question. What are the strengths of highly sensitive people? What are the strengths of people with rejection sensitive dysphoria?

   2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani32:05

      Yeah. I think being able-- A- again, I think that there is a direct pipeline between being highly emotionally sensitive and being highly emotionally intelligent, and I think that's just how you deal with that sensitivity. And so some of the strengths that can come with that emotional sensitivity are, number one, you have a deep, deep, deep understanding of other people's emotional insides. And I think that's part of, you know, what led me into psychiatry in the first place. That's part of why I've continued to enjoy it as much as I have because I think that you can intimately understand when people are talking about their experience or, like, you can even understand... You know, sometimes I'll have a patient come into my office and you start asking them questions and, you know, their answer is like, "I don't know." Like, "Okay, so c- can you tell me anything in the past two months that has really made you upset?" "I don't know." Like, and so then it, it's for a lot of people, that's like a stone wall. You don't really know where to go from there. But for some people who are highly emotionally sensitive, you're picking up like, okay, I'm picking up from, like, previous body cues that they were giving me when they were talking about their family-

   3. CWChris Williamson33:15

      Mm-hmm

   4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani33:15

      ... or when they were a- answering in certain ways. You're just like, "Okay, well, there's some tension there." And so you start asking about other questions. So you're picking up stuff that you might not even have clocked as it was happening at the time, but you've amalgamated and you know exactly what direction to go. I think that's an incredibly, um, wonderful thing to have. Um, and I think that, yeah, that outside of just psychiatry, I think that does make you a good friend. It makes you a good partner. It makes you a good parent. I think it's so helpful with parenting.

   5. CWChris Williamson33:45

      Mm.

   6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani33:46

      Um, so I think, I think it's just that huge scope of understanding that emotional condition.

   7. CWChris Williamson33:52

      Does emotional sensitivity have an impact on people's self-esteem?

   8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani33:58

      Um, yes. [laughs] But sometimes it can be negative. You know, if, if you're highly emotionally sensitive, I think, and you're used to reading e- emotional data negatively, sometimes that can start to impact your self-esteem and you're, you're walking into a room and, you know, self-worth and self-confidence are different. But you walk into a room and you start to feel like, "Okay, maybe I'm not wanted here," and things like that. And, and you're reading emotional information and, and possibly attaching a narrative on there that doesn't actually exist.

   9. CWChris Williamson34:29

      Hmm.

   10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani34:29

       That can impact your self-esteem for sure. Um, but there are other times, like for example, in the work that I do as a psychiatrist, because of that emotional sensitivity, I'm celebrated for that. And I think it's a really unique field to be in as an emotionally sensitive person-

   11. CWChris Williamson34:44

       Hmm

   12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani34:44

       ... because that's one of the areas where I get the most validation, 'cause people feel like they have been understood for the first time.

   13. CWChris Williamson34:51

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10. 35:49 – 38:21

    Do Sensitive People Need More Validation?

    1. CWChris Williamson35:49

       at checkout. What's the difference between confidence and self-esteem?

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani35:53

       I think self-esteem is like inherent. Inherent in, like that's, that's you. Confidence is more, I think, what you're capable of and what you're, you know, your, like your confidence in your skills and what you can do in that moment.

    3. CWChris Williamson36:09

       Mm.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani36:10

       So confidence, I think, fluctuates, and self-esteem is just self-worth is your base.

    5. CWChris Williamson36:15

       Okay. Does that mean that people with RSD are more likely to need constant reassurance?

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani36:20

       Yes.

    7. CWChris Williamson36:21

       Right.

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani36:21

       [laughs] Yes, it is. 'Cause I think what, what's happening is that they're getting this negative input or potentially it's not actually negative. It could be neutral.

    9. CWChris Williamson36:30

       They're reading neutral input as negative.

    10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani36:32

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson36:32

        Or positive input as negative.

    12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani36:34

        Yes.

    13. CWChris Williamson36:34

        Yep.

    14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani36:34

        That's happened too. Uh, but you're reading it as negative, and so there are times where you get so stuck in these amygdala loops of fear and your, your stress hormones are like just cascading through your body that you're just like, "I just need someone else to tell me that I'm not, like, that this isn't actually the case." And so it's a f- it's a form of reality testing.

    15. CWChris Williamson36:57

        Hmm. Do you think that you can build self-esteem without external validation?

    16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani37:01

        Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Um, I think with, you know... I, I guess success is kind of external validation. But [laughs] but d- doing... I think there is stuff that you can work on your self-esteem. One of the biggest things to help with self-esteem, I think, is understanding your own brain. 'Cause I think if you have this... I- if you are able to destigmatize for yourself, like, this isn't a personal failing, this is just truly neurobiologically how my brain is working, I think that can bolster your self-esteem pretty tremendously.

    17. CWChris Williamson37:38

        Hmm. Does this mean that compliments are hard for these people to believe? If somebody pays you a compliment, is it quite likely that it's going to be brushed off by someone with RSD?

    18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani37:47

        Sometimes. Sometimes. I think it depends on, on how they're receiving it in the moment. Like, and what the, what the relationship is with the person. Like for example, if it's a relationship where, you know, a, a sibling that's always kind of been a straight broker and they get a compliment, you know, you might not feel like, I don't trust that compliment, that's weird. If it might be they're already self-conscious about something and they don't know the other person well and they give them a compliment, maybe that hits their ear weird because they're already kind of self-conscious about it. It really depends on where they are in that moment.

    19. CWChris Williamson38:20

        Okay.

    20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani38:20

        But it's

11. 38:21 – 43:43

    How Rejection Dysphoria Affects Relationships

    1. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani38:21

       possible.

    2. CWChris Williamson38:21

       How does emotional sensitivity show up in relationships?

    3. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani38:25

       Um, [laughs] it-

    4. CWChris Williamson38:29

       You sound exasperated by that question.

    5. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani38:30

       I know, 'cause it's such a broad question. Um, I think emotional sensitivity plays a role in every relationship. Like, whether you're highly emotionally sensitive or not, I think relationships are just kind of this minefield for emotions anyway. Because e- for, in a very real way, you're putting yourself in a spot of vulnerability. You are, you know, I mean theoretically in vulnerability, where you're exposing parts of yourself to another person and you're having to navigate those waters and see... You know, you're really, like, putting it out there, and if the person likes you or doesn't like you, you're, you're putting yourself out there to possibly receive rejection, possibly receive criticism.

    6. CWChris Williamson39:10

       Hmm.

    7. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani39:10

       So I think that for a highly emotionally sensitive person can get really tricky.

    8. CWChris Williamson39:15

       Hmm.

    9. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani39:16

       Um, and people... I know a lot of people that are highly emotionally sensitive who have rejection sensitive dysphoria who don't want to date anymore. They're like, "This is too hard. I can't do that because as soon as there is a delay in texting, I've convinced myself that this person isn't, isn't interested, and I've redownloaded an app."

    10. CWChris Williamson39:36

        Why does waiting for a text feel so unbearable?

    11. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani39:39

        I think it's just that, that lack of that immediate answer and that knowledge, it... your brain just fills in a narrative in that empty space. And so like for example, if they were interested, they would respond to me right away. If they... Like, I've even had people who have thought, and I've thought this in the past, if I'm sitting on someone who hasn't texted back, my brain will go to, "Well, they're with somebody else. Like, they're, they're not thinking about me. They're with somebody else." And like by the time they respond, like they got off of their shift, I have already [laughs] moved on. Like, I'm angry with them. And then, you know, it takes a while for me to recalibrate and figure out. But that, sometimes that's where my brain has gone.

    12. CWChris Williamson40:23

        Right. So does this mean that anxious people sometimes will sabotage relationships-

    13. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani40:28

        Yes

    14. CWChris Williamson40:29

        ... before they've even had the chance to be rejected?

    15. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani40:31

        Yes.

    16. CWChris Williamson40:32

        How does that show up?

    17. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani40:33

        I mean, that was my pattern in all of my 20s. [laughs] Like as soon as-

    18. CWChris Williamson40:36

        What would you do?

    19. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani40:36

        Be, uh, like as soon as people got close enough and I was worried that I was, you know, like we're getting a little bit too close and now I have to show you actual parts of myself or, or I'm, I'm afraid that if you know certain parts of myself or you know that I'm really, really emotionally sensitive and I overthink absolutely everything that you say, you're gonna leave, so I'm just gonna end it.

    20. CWChris Williamson41:02

        Hmm.

    21. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani41:03

        So I've never been broken up with [laughs] 'cause-

    22. CWChris Williamson41:07

        Ever?

    23. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani41:07

        Ever. [laughs]

    24. CWChris Williamson41:08

        Wow.

    25. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani41:08

        'Cause I would just like-

    26. CWChris Williamson41:10

        You can't fire me, I quit.

    27. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani41:11

        Yeah, I quit. I'm out of here. So I would just leave before... And, and it was literally no fault of their own.

    28. CWChris Williamson41:20

        Right, so-

    29. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani41:20

        They would not be the cause of this

    30. CWChris Williamson41:22

        ... big fear of abandonment?
12. 43:43 – 49:40

    Why the Right Environment Changes Everything

    1. CWChris Williamson43:43

       Right? I think this is the, this is the thing, again, if we were to take you at one end of the spectrum and Dana White at the other, um, physiologically also two very different humans.

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani43:51

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson43:52

       Um, what has happened there, which is I guess pretty great, like Dana White would probably make a fucking horrendous psychiatrist. And I don't c- I don't think that you would be fantastic as the CEO of the UFC, a fighting sport.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani44:02

       You don't know. [laughs]

    5. CWChris Williamson44:03

       Yeah. Well, maybe. You might be true. Uh, but there are dispositions and there are situations that you put yourself into.

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani44:11

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson44:11

       If you were in a relationship with somebody who was go, go, go, doesn't really think about emotions that much, isn't able to sit with you in the muck, isn't able to hold space that much, that would be a bad type of partnership.

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani44:21

       Yes.

    9. CWChris Williamson44:22

       Right now, I'm sure you could make it work. Maybe you could even have a flourishing relationship. But it would be done by, like, gritting your teeth and gripping the bar incredibly aggressively.

    10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani44:29

        Yes.

    11. CWChris Williamson44:29

        The same thing for Dana White. If Dana White was in a relationship or i- in a business where he constantly had to sort of be very fluffy and very soft and sort of, uh, uh, patient, sensitive, more demure, you know, moving at a, a more, uh, delicate pace, I don't... He might be able to make it work. I'm sure that he, he is a flexible, competent human. But if he does that, he's gonna be, like, not fully utilizing this part of his capacity in the same way as the world loses a great psychiatrist if you become the CEO of the UFC.

    12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani44:59

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson45:00

        So this... And this to me is, like compatibility, the more that I think about it and the older that I get, compatibility is kind of everything in life. Okay, I have this type of a disposition. I can work on it, and I can try and smooth out some of the edges that do feel a little bit close to pathological or are just a bit maladaptive, right?

    14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani45:18

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson45:18

        It's, it's firing in the wrong, at the wrong times, and I want it to be a little bit more this and a bit less that.

    16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani45:22

        Okay.

    17. CWChris Williamson45:23

        But largely, you have a set and a suite of strengths that come along with this particular disposition that you have, and you can put yourself in a situation where those aren't things that you need to curtail, they're things that you can use as a platform and a springboard.

    18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani45:36

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson45:37

        Uh, I pay a lot of attention to stuff, right? I pay a lot of attention, specifically words. Words was, like, my first love as a kid. I read a lot as a kid. And now it means that when I build brands, like I, I built this thing, I built this podcast-

    20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani45:49

        Yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson45:49

        ... word, wordplay and coming up with cool copy and spending obsessive amounts of time. The, for the first run that we ever did, you'll see that there's three icons on the back of this can.

    22. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani45:59

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson45:59

        One of the icons was half a point off, offset on the back, and this had gone through... Like, we'd sold millions of cans and no one had noticed, and one day I picked a can up and I was like, "Guys, there's something wrong with the back of the can."

    24. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani46:11

        [laughs]

    25. CWChris Williamson46:11

        And the only reason that that was able to be seen was because of that level of attention to detail. Now, is that going to be the difference between this being a billion dollar brand and not? Probably not. However, that same trait-

    26. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani46:23

        Oh. Delicious.

    27. CWChris Williamson46:24

        Wonderful. That's the-

    28. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani46:25

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson46:25

        That, that's the... From a board-certified psychiatrist nonetheless. Um-

    30. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani46:31

        Yeah
13. 49:40 – 53:00

    Why Uncertainty Feels Unbearable

    1. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani49:40

       Yeah.

    2. CWChris Williamson49:40

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just on the relationship thing, uh, texting, waiting for texts, why is uncertainty so much harder to deal with than bad news?

    3. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani49:52

       Oh, 'cause it's not ... I think, I think it's, it's the, the fact that it's not definite. Hard news, bad news is difficult, but I think at some point you're like, "Okay, that's really bad, but here are the steps I need to do to make it better, and, like, uh, now I can ma- kind of make a game plan." The uncertainty, I will tell you, 10 times out of 10 I will convince myself that a way worse outcome-

    4. CWChris Williamson50:19

       Yeah

    5. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani50:19

       ... is happening in real time. And so I've already convinced myself that the worst possible outcome is happening, rather than if I actually get, you know, the, the knowledge that something bad is happening, I'm like, "Okay, that's not as bad as what I [laughs] thought it would be."

    6. CWChris Williamson50:33

       I suppose as well you can create situations in imagination that, like, defy the laws of physics, like your dead great-grandmother can come back from the grave to laugh at you about the thing. It's like that, that can't even happen, but that's how much our brains abhor having uncertainty, that they would rather fantasize a nightmare than deal with ambiguity.

    7. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani50:53

       I, I know that I, I for one have, have come up with situations where, like, then I'm ... Later I'm telling ... Like, m- my mom has taken the brunt of this, where I'm telling her all of this stuff, and she's like, "What?"

    8. CWChris Williamson51:05

       That's deranged.

    9. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:06

       "W- w- what is this?"

    10. CWChris Williamson51:07

        Yeah.

    11. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:07

        "How did that come in your brain?"

    12. CWChris Williamson51:08

        Okay, so this must be the same thing, the same dynamic of why ghosting is so damaging-

    13. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:16

        Yeah

    14. CWChris Williamson51:16

        ... because there's no closure.

    15. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:18

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson51:18

        Right.

    17. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:19

        Yeah. There's no closure. And I think also, like, this is ... Ghosting is just awful. People shouldn't do that. Just, just so you know. [laughs]

    18. CWChris Williamson51:30

        Yeah.

    19. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:30

        Like, it's just an awful way to communicate. Um, I think this is one of those things where as an emotionally sensitive person, you d- you ... Ghosting is not just like, okay, this is the dissolution of the relationship. Your brain automatically goes into there's something about me that forced this person away. And, and so that uncertainty starts-

    20. CWChris Williamson51:52

        It's not that I'm an asshole, it's I'm insufficient.

    21. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani51:54

        Yes. So it, it gets turned on you, and which I think is such ... It's so cruel to do to somebody else.

    22. CWChris Williamson52:01

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14. 53:00 – 54:04

    Are Emotionally Avoidant Men Secretly Sensitive?

    1. CWChris Williamson53:00

       I'm wondering, to sort of take it back to the how RSD and emotional sensitivity shows up in men, I wonder whether emotionally avoidant men are sometimes just emotionally sensitive men in disguise that don't have enough courage.

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani53:14

       Yeah. Oh, yeah. B- a lot of times, yes. I think emotionally avoidant men, um, s- you know, you ... Again, going back to this thing of, like, men really don't have a lot of space to explore how to be emotionally sensitive, um, because, you know, just from a young age they're told that they can't be. And so they learn how to suppress it and to change it. And so when they're put into situations where they may have to be emotionally sensitive or they may have to, you know, engage in a way that they could get hurt or they could get rejected or something else could trigger sadness or an emotional response, they're just like, "Nope, I'm out. I'm just gonna pull myself away from this." I mean, I've told you about ... I mean, I've been avoidant in the past because

15. 54:04 – 57:35

    When Should You Work on Emotional Fragility?

    1. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:04

       of that.

    2. CWChris Williamson54:05

       How do you draw the line between emotional sensitivity and emotional fragility? Because what we're talking about here is, hey, you have this superpower. There's gonna be some challenges that come along with it. But wherever you are on the spectrum from, from D- Dana White to yourself, the-

    3. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:20

       I love that we're the extremes. [laughs]

    4. CWChris Williamson54:21

       I think you are. I really think you are. I think you're kind of technically different species. Um-

    5. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:26

       [laughs]

    6. CWChris Williamson54:27

       W- I'm interested in when saying this is actually something that you need to man up about.

    7. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:35

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson54:35

       This is something that you need to get over. This is something that you need to grit your teeth and work through. As opposed to you just don't fully understand how emotionally fluid and sensitive I am. Like, I feel things deeply, you know? Because everybody likes the idea of being validated.

    9. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:48

       Sure.

    10. CWChris Williamson54:48

        But validation done to the extreme results in-

    11. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:52

        Is counterproductive

    12. CWChris Williamson54:52

        ... no accountability.

    13. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani54:53

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson54:53

        Right? There's no point ... If, if every emotion that you feel and every response that you have is valid, then you go, "Okay, in that case, I don't have to work on anything."

    15. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani55:02

        No.

    16. CWChris Williamson55:02

        "I can just be as big of an asshole or-"

    17. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani55:04

        Or a monster

    18. CWChris Williamson55:05

        ... "a pussy as I want."

    19. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani55:06

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson55:06

        And never actually ... As opposed to, okay, there are, there are some limits that I need to push myself up against. So I think a lot of people will be feeling this as they're listening. It's like, right, okay, like these people, this is interesting. Like, uh, my sister or my girlfriend is like, she cries at things that I wouldn't usually, and sometimes it takes a while for her to come back down after she's had an emotional event, and so on and so forth. Like- How does somebody know when it's emotional fragility that should be worked on? When should they push and when should they pivot?

    21. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani55:33

        I don't think it's for another person to make that decision.

    22. CWChris Williamson55:35

        Mm-hmm.

    23. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani55:36

        I think it's for the person experiencing that moment. 'Cause like for me, I think this is what that past three years of research has gotten me to. 'Cause it, I, for years, I'm like, "Am I too fragile? Am I too weak? What is wrong?" Like, "What is this?" And I think it... W- we've just, emotionally sensitive people in general have been kind of put, uh, not put, but existing in an extremely difficult... Like right now, the world is a hard place to be a human in. This is just a weird time to live in.

    24. CWChris Williamson56:08

        If you want to feel feelings, it is. If you don't want to feel feelings, it's actually quite a fun place to be in-

    25. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani56:13

        Yes. [laughs]

    26. CWChris Williamson56:13

        ... I think. You know? There's like so much, there's, there's so much novelty, and there's lots of things that you can do, and you can have an infinite number of like, uh, the velocity of different stimulus that you can enjoy. That's great. But if you actually want to feel feelings, it's kind of horrendous.

    27. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani56:27

        Yeah. [laughs] Okay. Well, I'm on the horrendous end. Like I, I think, I think existing in the world right now can sometimes be very difficult. Um, but I think that for an emotionally sensitive person, we've also never been given tools. Like there's, they, we have been told, "You're too sensitive. You're too fragile. You're too weak, and you need to kind of strengthen yourself."

    28. CWChris Williamson56:51

        Mm-hmm.

    29. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani56:52

        But no one's told you how to do that, and really what it boils down to is, is looking at that, like there's that step of us receiving that emotional data, and then how do we catch it kind of in that moment so that we can, you know, impact either we're not gonna change the processing, 'cause we're still gonna read it, but can we impact the intensity? Can we impact the duration? Can we get past this and make it a usable moment? And there's skills and tools that come with it, and that's what three years of like pulling from every area of psychology and psychiatry to give tools that w- would work in the moment and over time, that's what led to this book, because I don't think people have that. I never got

16. 57:35 – 1:02:34

    The Most Powerful Tools for Emotional Regulation

    1. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani57:35

       that.

    2. CWChris Williamson57:35

       What are the most-

    3. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani57:36

       You teach it in school

    4. CWChris Williamson57:36

       ... powerful emotional regulation tools?

    5. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani57:40

       Okay. So I, I came up with the Calm Your Mind toolkit, which is 12 of them. Um, and, and I will, I will tell you that all of them are, are things that you've probably heard before. You, you've heard challenge negative thoughts. You've heard move your body. You've heard delay your reaction. You've heard stuff like that. But I think for an emotionally sensitive person or someone who's going through big emotions in real time, things can get so overwhelming in that moment that it, it's like when I have that, like get absolutely flooded emotionally, nothing is happening [laughs] up here. Like I can't think or process or like utilize what tool am I supposed to use.

    6. CWChris Williamson58:20

       Yep.

    7. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani58:20

       So this was so helpful for me to actually go through, and in a place where I was regulated, I could be like, "Okay, this is the tool I wanna use," and then actually break down the steps, knowing from an emotionally sensitive brain this is when I'm gonna feel blank. Now if I have this book [laughs] that can tell me like step by step what I'm supposed to do, 'cause that's what I wish I had. I just, I just want like a gu- I wanted a guide, 'cause I think it would've made med school easier. It would've made dating easier. It would've made, you know, the early years of my marriage easier. It would've made parenting easier. I think the, it's just there... Did that answer your question?

    8. CWChris Williamson58:57

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani58:57

       Okay. [laughs]

    10. CWChris Williamson58:57

        Well, I guess pick the top three tools to calm your mind-

    11. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani59:02

        Okay

    12. CWChris Williamson59:02

        ... and how do people do them correctly?

    13. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani59:03

        Yeah, that was the question. Okay. Um, I think one of my favorite ones is just utilizing movement, 'cause I think that there is a tremendous am- and I'm not saying like you have to be in like some heavy duty like weightlifting kind of thing, and you have to do a certain amount of cardio or something. I'm saying that when you are incredibly emotionally overloaded, there's a tremendous amount of value in like physical movement, and one, to like pattern disruption, so you're actually moving. Two, you're getting oxygenated glucose to your brain and hopefully shunting it to that frontal lobe so you can get resources there, so you can think and process and override that amygdala in real time.

    14. CWChris Williamson59:42

        What does that look like? Someone's going through a event where they're emotionally activated. Do they start doing push-ups?

    15. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani59:48

        [laughs] You... I mean, whatever floats your boat, man. But I, I would say like during dur- I, the last time I utilized it in real time was in a meeting, and I was talking, it, during the meeting, I was talking about leaving the practice I'd been at for nine years and starting my own practice. And so I'm like, there were, all of my partners were around me. I felt like I was sh- like I was overcome with guilt and fear about starting something new, and it was just, it was a very big moment for me. And I recognized like, "Okay, this is what I need to do." And even within that, I just from under, like I started like just, uh, tensing my calves and-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:00:29

        Mm-hmm

    17. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:00:29

        ... like moving my legs and d- and just like f- and I think when you look at like ADHD in general, 'cause, you know, a- almost 100% of people with ADHD have some, some form of RSD or s- you know, they're, uh, they're fall on that spectrum. You look at fidgeting and things like that a- as a form of like emotional regulation and self-stimulation and things like that. You're trying to actually surge some of that dopamine, norepinephrine kind of data.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:00:57

        Hmm. Okay, movement.

    19. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:00:59

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:00:59

        What next?

    21. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:01:00

        Okay. Um, you're asking me my favorites, so I'm thinking about the ones I've most recently used. One of them I really like, and it's delay your reaction. 'Cause my initial impulse, the minute I get pressed up against the wall or like if I have like this like big emotional stuff that I don't know how to deal with, is I, I respond with urgency. So all of the time, if something is happening, like if there is a delay in a text message I will be that person who texts [laughs] four times, "Where are you? What's happening?" And this is just, like, a reminder, like if I delay my response-

    22. CWChris Williamson1:01:37

        Mm

    23. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:01:38

        ... I'm allowing that amygdala to stop spinning as much, and I allow that frontal lobe to come on. And then the narrative I'm telling myself is going to be significantly less negative, and usually by that time, that person has responded.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:01:51

        Does that not also create more time and uncertainty, though?

    25. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:01:55

        Here's the deal. I think that if you are-- If you understand that, that it's a very purposeful and mindful thing that you're doing. If you, if you know that that's what you're doing for your brain. You're not, you're not just, like, stepping away and, like, you're like, "Okay. Well, maybe they'll respond in that time." I'm stepping away because I know that I need to give my brain, um, time to just, like, stop overheating. Like, I want my amygdala to stop spinning out of control. I want my frontal lobe to come online. I want to give it enough time to do that because I know that I will think better. I think that gives me... I know that I'm using a tool. I'm not just sitting there.

17. 1:02:34 – 1:04:41

    What It’s Really Like Being a Sensitive Parent

    1. CWChris Williamson1:02:34

       How has it been being a mum with this? Because when I think about even the well-balanced parents, there is anxiety. Where's my kid? They're late back from soccer practice. I don't know when they're gonna come through the door. Who, who are you going out with this evening? I have to assume that the disposition that you're going into parenting with can be great because you're gonna be attuned to your child's needs, but can also be highly chaotic-

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:03:00

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson1:03:00

       ... because you're gonna feel worried.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:03:03

       Yeah. I, I think-- I mean, it's chaotic, but I think all parenting is kind of chaotic, to be honest with you. I think it's just, it's a, it's, it's a wild ride. But I think that I'm very lucky because my husband is very measured and calm and patient. And so I think he is, like, such a good emotional barometer for all of us. And I think that in that context where I feel so much safety and so much, you know, uh, uh... We're all given kind of free reign to explore our feelings and to navigate through life. I think being emotionally sensitive as a parent has been really helpful for me, and it's really helped me kind of understand... 'Cause kids, uh, like, can be very annoying 'cause [laughs] that's just part of being a kid.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:03:52

       Well, reliably, they grow up to be annoying adults as well.

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:03:55

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:55

       Yeah.

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:03:55

       They can be annoying, uh, totally. But as kids, their stuff, like, even just, like, noise and, and just, like, stuff that they do and ha- You know, they're not little adults. They're kids. Their frontal lobes aren't developed. They don't know any better. But you're, you're so tired and fatigued from this nonstop, like, marathon of parenting that sometimes it's, it's hard to remember that. I think being emotionally sensitive, you look at your kid having a big emotional moment and you're like, "I know what this feels like, and I know what, what can help you come out of it. And it's not gonna be, like, snapping or yelling or, like, trying to pull you out of that moment by force. It's, it's giving you that safety and that, and that freedom to explore and figure out the solution for yourself and pull yourself out of it."

18. 1:04:41 – 1:07:23

    The Vulnerability Behind Mindfulness

    1. CWChris Williamson1:04:41

       Exercise, delay your response. What's your third favorite?

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:04:45

       My third favorite, um... I think you'll like this. It's mindfulness.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:54

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:04:54

       I think being-- It's, like, really, uh, uh, really drilling down on the mindfulness. And for me, I think what is really important about this is not... For, uh, I always thought that mindfulness is, like, factory reset. Like, you gotta be thinking about nothing. Like, if you're doing meditation or something like that, nothing is going on in your brain. And I think the difference for me is giving myself the space to non-judgmentally just observe what's happening in my brain and, like, just observe what is going on. And there, you know, there, th-there was a study that came out of Yale that was looking at this mindfulness and, like, the power of, like, just observation instead of, like, judgmentally rushing to solve that feeling. Just looking at the feeling, it reduces activation in the brain.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:05:39

       Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, that was something that I learned on that, that meditation retreat. It's an interesting style of meditation, Jhana, which is the one that I was doing. So with mindfulness, it's a bit more brute forcey, which is I think why it's become more popular. You have a thought, you notice the thought is there, and then you sort of release it away. You almost-- It, it's not quite a pushing. It's more a opening of the hand. But with the school that I was doing, you, you actually welcome that in. So you pull the thought towards yourself. So you see the part of you that goes, um, you start thinking about work, and then you judge yourself at being distracted for thinking about work. And then you notice both of those thoughts and you go, "Wow, there's that bit of me that thinks about work. Like, I'm really glad that I care that much about my pursuits. Like, why don't you come, like-

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:06:25

       Mm-hmm

    7. CWChris Williamson1:06:25

       ... show some gratitude to that." And then, "Wow, there's that bit of me that's judging me for not being good at this thing. He just wants to work so hard. Like, he really wants to do this thing right, and he's here to protect me."

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:06:36

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:06:36

       "And, like, you can come here as well."

    10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:06:37

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:06:38

        And as you continue to do that, it's a very different... It was a very different experience, especially doing it. Like, I've done, I don't know, 2,000, 2,500 sessions of Vipassana across my life and then-

    12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:06:47

        Yeah

    13. CWChris Williamson1:06:47

        ... got thrust into this new school. I guess it must be similar to learning to kickbox your entire life and then going and doing Brazilian jujitsu. And you go, "Well, I'm still fighting somebody-

    14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:06:56

        Mm

    15. CWChris Williamson1:06:56

        ... but the way that I'm doing it, the domain is completely different." And, um, yeah, one of the things that was kind of interesting, at least with the, the mindfulness part there, was it's, it's very much about emotional conductivity.

    16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:07:08

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:07:08

        It's about, "Okay, how can I see what I'm feeling completely non-judgmentally?" And I think that it's the same thing that you're getting at. With one of them, you're letting it go, and with the other one, you're bringing it in.

    18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:07:17

        Sure.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:07:18

        But for both of them, there is a lack of judgment, right?

    20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:07:20

        Yes.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:07:20

        And I think that that shame spiral that we were talking about is...

19. 1:07:23 – 1:09:51

    Is Social Media Harming Sensitive Teenagers?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:07:23

       You talked about kids there. What do you think TikTok is doing, and social media? What do you think social media is doing to emotionally sensitive teenagers?

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:07:34

       Oh. Well, okay, so here's the deal. I think, I think social media is just a weird place in general [laughs] and that, that's coming from someone who is on social media. Um, I myself find my- th- I get triggered by social media all the time. I'm constantly comparing myself to others. I feel like my, a lot of my day-to-day, um, relationship with self-worth for a long time was driven by numbers. Like, how many likes did I get on a post? How much engagement am I getting? Like, how... Like, what's happening on that? That's what was driving, like, am I good at what I'm doing?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:13

       Mm.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:08:13

       Like, is it... I was getting that external validation. I, I am, th- I'm a, a physician who's gone to med school and who's studied the brain, like, and that's still happening to me. So for s- kids whose, their frontal lobe isn't fully developed, I think they probably are at higher risk. And so I think that it's just a difficult... I don't think s- I don't think completely, like, shielding them from social media and, and from that entire world, just, like, uh, you can't really... Like, the train is moving. You can't, you can't completely shelter your kids from absolutely everything. You have to teach them how to navigate these constantly evolving waters.

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20. 1:09:51 – 1:13:24

    Are We Born Sensitive?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:09:51

       Can the way that you're raised in early childhood enhance your sensitivity?

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:09:56

       Yes.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:09:56

       I don't know whether you've done much work into nature versus nurture for this.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:09:59

       I think there is a huge part that's genetic. There is a huge part that also if you grow up in, like, this incredibly chaotic and tumultuous home, you are already hypervigilant. You're searching for cues. You, you can be more emotionally sensitive because of that as well.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:17

       Mm-hmm.

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:10:18

       So there are lots of things.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:10:18

       And then if those two things get combined.

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:10:20

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:10:21

       Right. Okay. How early does rejection sensitivity emerge?

    10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:10:25

        You... I mean, you could see it in two-year-olds. You could see it in three-year-olds.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:28

        Right. Are there some parenting behaviors you think that accidentally create emotional sensitivity or maybe even fragility?

    12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:10:38

        I don't, I don't... I think that there's some things that a lot of parents are doing in hopes that they are getting a more resilient child, like teaching them, "You don't need to cry about this."

    13. CWChris Williamson1:10:53

        Mm.

    14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:10:53

        "You need to move on. You need to... You know, this isn't a big deal." Where, uh, and the way that I kind of have thought about those kind of... Because, like, even raising my own kids, I, like, I think about that all the time. I'm like, that isn't that big of a deal. Like, my kid had a tantrum the other day that I wouldn't [laughs] give him the heel of, like, the loaf of bread, and I was like, "That's objectively the worst part. Like, you don't want that. I don't want to give it to you." And, like, it was, like, a huge thing, but then I was like, this kid [laughs] has not dealt with he- like, disappointment yet. The... It just, it... From what I'm understanding, this is probably one of the worst things that has happened to him to date. Like, he hasn't had-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:11:34

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

    16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:11:34

        ... a very hard life. So, like, I need to teach him how to navigate disappointment instead of being like, "This isn't a big deal." It probably is kind of a big deal to him.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:11:40

        Yeah.

    18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:11:41

        He really wants that heel of bread.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:11:42

        Mm-hmm.

    20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:11:42

        And so it's, you know, and I don't really have a good reason not to give him it. But, like, I, we just, we had to navigate through that moment and, like, with big tantrums, you, you deal with that, but I think it's easy in that moment to be like, "This is a dumb problem. Move on." [laughs]

    21. CWChris Williamson1:11:59

        I think the heel of bread is actually a really lovely meme for everything.

    22. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:12:02

        [laughs]

    23. CWChris Williamson1:12:02

        Which is working out the difference between validating feelings and encouraging victimhood.

    24. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:12:06

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:12:06

        And this is in adulthood as well. You know, there can be a situation that you're in where what you're after is a heel of bread. And-

    26. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:12:13

        [laughs]

    27. CWChris Williamson1:12:13

        ... everybody around you and you yourself, the better version of you, has every right to go, "No, dude-"

    28. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:12:19

        It's huge

    29. CWChris Williamson1:12:19

        ... "you don't want that. Like, you're being silly. You're being ridiculous."

    30. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:12:22

        Yeah.
21. 1:13:24 – 1:22:56

    How Rejection Dysphoria Affects Your Career

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:25

       How does RSD show up in work and achievement? Because I have to assume that these are the overachievers, the perfectionists.

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:13:34

       Sometimes. So- but, but sometimes it actually ki- before you can g- even get to that spot where you're kind of overcompensating, you're not even putting yourself out there. So I have patients who have been, you know, I, I couldn't even... Like, I got spooked in the job interview, and I, like walked out. I couldn't do it. Like, I-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:52

       Mm-hmm

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:13:52

       ... I didn't feel like they liked me. Say you get past that spot and z- you're in the work environment. Y- sometimes you are so, and you see this a lot with high achieving people and especially high achieving women, j- I think societally there's just like this pressure on women to do everything, [laughs] to do it all and to just like not complain. So if another thing comes along, they're right, "Yes, I can do it. Yes, I can take that on. Yes, I can do all this stuff."

    5. CWChris Williamson1:14:19

       Mm.

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:14:19

       And so w- you just... What happens is that you start to override the signs of burnout, and you just keep adding more and more and more onto your plate because you don't wanna look like you're less than your peers. You don't wanna look... You don't want people to be like, "Ah, she was able to do that last week. Why can't she do that this week?" You don't wanna look incapable, and so you just keep adding more until you kinda reach that tipping point where you can't.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:43

       Yeah. I think it's, uh... I, I found this essay, uh, The Ambitious Mother Paradox: Good Mother or Wasted Potential? It's really great. It's a-

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:14:53

       Mm

    9. CWChris Williamson1:14:53

       ... quite a long read, but there's a, a, a really interesting line here that says, "The implicit logic of protecting your right to work in the workforce was clear. You can't argue for equal access and then immediately ask for accommodation that implies you are different," that women have just been brought into the workplace. This is not something they want to be taken away from them. This is something that they're worried might be taken away from them.

    10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:15:14

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:15:14

        And yet there are certain elements of many people's, but often many women's psychologies that can make the workplace feel like kind of a spiky and unforgiving and a bit sterile and cold place to be.

    12. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:15:29

        Mm.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:15:30

        Like, hey, your emotional sensitivity in this like capitalist, meritocratic, very fast-paced environment, I... There's not a massive amount of room for that.

    14. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:15:39

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:15:39

        And yet you also know as somebody who's just gotten into this high-powered career that you fought for this, and everybody else, all of the other women that have just fought for this, have just got here, and you're like, "Well, I... Like, I really want to be here, and I don't want it to be taken away from me, b- but now I feel bad about asking for accommodation that implies that I'm different," which is, I feel this thing, and the guys around me don't seem to be feeling it in quite the same way, or maybe they're just able to suppress it more effectively than I am. Uh, I just thought it was such a... I, I'd never really heard of anybody highlight the fact that there is a, there's a tension, like a bridge doing this in an earthquake that's moving in difficult directions that creates a sort of a pull on the system, especially for women in the workplace, especially for highly sensitive women in the workplace. I feel like I need to show up as the men that I think are the ones that are running the company, but I want to be one of the women that's maybe running the company. But I'm like denying part of the nurturing, empathetic people skills that I've got that are my competitive advantage. So I need to perform in this way, and I don't want to be seen as less than.

    16. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:16:42

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:16:42

        And I also want to protect it for everybody else, but I also don't want to deny myself, and I might need to ask for a bit of support, but I'm worried if I ask for s- support, that's accommodation for this brand new world that I just... Like, it's hard. I-

    18. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:16:52

        It's-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:16:52

        Reading that essay, this big massive essay by Taylor, I was like, that's a lot. That's a lot to navigate.

    20. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:16:59

        It's a lot. And then just like from a logistical perspective, there's also that, you know, child-rearing falls in that. So all of a sudden you're at the peak of your career, you have a kid, you have to step away from that and then reintegrate, and then all of a sudden you'll find that, you know... And, you know, it's probably because you did h- step away. It, now, you know, you're... I- it's almost as if everything you work towards kind of gets pulled away from you and your, your... Everyone assumes that all of your priorities are completely different and, and there's opportunities that are kept out of your reach. It's like it's a whole... It can be very difficult to maneuver just from a logistical perspective as women are the ones bearing the children.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:17:42

        I had a great conversation about dad brain, but also mum brain came up too.

    22. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:17:47

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:17:47

        And the fact that if you have a kid, as a mother, 2.5% gray matter loss-ish, like that really does not... Basically anything that requires executive function that is not your child gets pruned a little bit.

    24. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:18:02

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:18:02

        And that means, yeah, you're, if you were the EA to some high-powered CEO and you were basically running his entire life, or you're the chief of staff, right, and you before were just this absolute military killer, you could go, you knew exactly what was going on at all times, and now it feels like there's fluff in your brain. You go, "Huh." I, I... Again, this is another situation where I think compatibility... And one thing that would be cool, I know that other peop- this isn't my idea, but suggesting that mothers look at, um, transitioning careers to things that utilize this new skill set, not to see it as a weakness, right? Not to go, "I want to be the person that I was when I was 25," and I had literally a different brain and different priorities and a different stage of life-

    26. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:18:46

        Mm-hmm

    27. CWChris Williamson1:18:46

        ... as opposed to going, "Huh, I've just unlocked this entire new world. Maybe becoming a therapist will be like a really incredible opportunity for me to focus this brand new level of empathy." That would be, that'd be great.

    28. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:19:00

        Flip side.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:19:00

        Yes?

    30. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:19:01

        [laughs] Flip side is have those environments accommodate those changes, understand that those, those changes are happening to women and that, you know, priorities shift, and instead of putting them in the same roles, pivot their roles so they can utilize some of those skills that they have.
22. 1:22:56 – 1:23:35

    The Most Important Lesson for Sensitive People

    1. CWChris Williamson1:22:56

       If there's someone that feels like they're in the world and it's too spiky for their emotions, what would you want them to take away? What would you want to tell them?

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:23:06

       They just don't have the tools yet. [laughs] Just, like, it, it, the... Life is hard. This world is hard, and I think being emotionally sensitive, it, for so many of us is a beautiful thing, is a beautiful thing. It's just, it's sometimes really difficult to keep your head above water when emotions are big.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:23:26

       Hmm.

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:23:26

       And so having those tools and being able to grab hold of them and use them in appropriate times is life-changing.

23. 1:23:35 – 1:24:10

    Where to Find Dr Hamdani

    1. CWChris Williamson1:23:35

       Dr Sasha Hamdani, ladies and gentlemen. You're great. I appreciate you going into the murky depths of people with way too many emotions.

    2. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:23:42

       Yeah. [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson1:23:42

       Where should people go to check out everything you've got going on?

    4. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:23:45

       So I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, I'm on YouTube, and it's The Psych Dr MD.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:23:50

       And the new book.

    6. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:23:51

       And the new book, Too Sensitive, which is out, um, August 25th.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:23:56

       Heck yeah. Appreciate you. All right.

    8. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:23:58

       Yay.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:23:58

       Goodbye, my beauties. Yes.

    10. SHDr. Sasha Hamdani1:24:00

        Yay, we did it! [outro music]

    11. CWChris Williamson1:24:02

        Congratulations. You made it to the end of a podcast episode without dying. Now here's another one. Go on, watch it.

Episode duration: 1:24:11