The Internet is Clueless About Relationships - Dr Max Butterfield

1. 0:00 – 7:37

   Did This Declaration of Love Backfire?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Dr Max Butterfield, welcome to the show

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:02

      Chris, thank you for having me. Please call me Max

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      D- no, Dr Max Butterfield.

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:07

      [laughs]

   5. CWChris Williamson0:07

      You, rip.

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:08

      Oh.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:08

      I absolutely love your content.

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:10

      Thank you.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:10

      I think you're so fantastic.

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:11

       Oh, I, I really appreciate it. I, I am shocked every day when somebody tells me that because I'm nobody, you know? I just have been telling people who I am every day for the last year-

   11. CWChris Williamson0:21

       [laughs]

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:21

       ... and it kinda started to take hold, I guess

   13. CWChris Williamson0:24

       Mm. Yeah, man, there's very few people doing evidence-based relationship advice, uh, especially on, in short form on social media-

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:30

       Totally. Totally

   15. CWChris Williamson0:31

       ... so it, it, it, it doesn't surprise me that it's going well. PhD in experimental psychology, masters in clinical psych, masters in experimental psych, bachelors in psych, and some additional work in religion, law, and languages. Let's go back.

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:42

       Just a couple, couple things. I really, you know, in, in first grade I decided I liked school and I was never gonna leave, so still here 30 years later.

   17. CWChris Williamson0:49

       All right. I'm gonna get you to, I'm gonna get you to react to something straight off the bat. Norwegian biathlete Sturla Holm Laegreid. Have you seen this?

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:57

       Yep.

   19. CWChris Williamson0:57

       Okay. So it-

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield0:58

       He's good

   21. CWChris Williamson0:59

       ... this 28-year-old guy chose the Olympics as the place to shoot his shot with his ex after he won the bronze in the men's 20-kilometer biathlon. In a viral post a- a- after his win, in the interview-

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:12

       Yeah

   23. CWChris Williamson1:12

       ... this guy confessed to cheating on the love of his life, revealing that she dumped him after he came clean a week ago, and said he was committing social suicide in the hopes of winning her back. Seems like his plan backfired since his ex, who has remained anonymous, reportedly told Norwegian tabloid VG that it's hard to forgive even after a declaration of love in front of the whole world. So for the people that haven't seen it, Dean will cut it in now.

   24. SPSpeaker1:35

       Six months ago, I met the love of my life, the world's most beautiful, wonderful person in the world, and three months ago, I made the biggest mistake of my life and cheated on her.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:46

       As you can see, that guy used probably the crowning moment of his entire career, may- maybe his entire life, right?

   26. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:54

       Right. Right

   27. CWChris Williamson1:54

       You've went from a child to do this thing. Biathlon's the rifle shooting with the skiing thing, I think.

   28. MBDr. Max Butterfield2:00

       That's... I believe so, yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson2:01

       Right. Um, way more of an expert on relationships than on fucking biathlons.

   30. MBDr. Max Butterfield2:06

       [laughs] All right.
2. 7:37 – 14:03

   Why Grand Gestures are a Bad Idea

   1. CWChris Williamson7:37

      That's an interesting one. Talk to me about some of the ways that the romantic mind tells people to try and fix breakups that the, um, sort of status-driven, slightly more rational mind has got a bit of a, an aversion to.

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield7:52

      Yeah. You know, I, I think in many ways we have no idea what we're doing in human relation- nobody does, you know, in human relationships because we are animals, and we are very reactionary. And it-- but it doesn't feel like it because we have this higher order cognition that makes a lot of sense and it tries to convince us that, "No, I'm doing this for a very specific reason." And so as a result, people rationalize what they're doing at a level that is always gonna feel like it makes sense from the inside and from the outside.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:25

      [laughing]

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield8:26

      Very different. And so I-- let, let me give, let me give, let me give you an example. So p- there's this concept out there that nobody's talking about in terms of relationships, but learning theorists know it really well and it's called approach avoidance. And it's not the kind of avoidance that you would talk about when we're talking about relationships, like, "This person doesn't want a relationship with me, therefore they're avoidant." This is... All this is to say is that sometimes scary things are also desirable and sometimes desirable things are also scary. So in other words, I want to pursue this relationship, but I know I might get hurt, and what that causes me to do is take some steps forward and then take some steps backward. And same with a breakup. This bad thing has happened, and you might have to deal with some hard truths to get this person back or to fix what's going on in yourself to not be a cheater anymore or whatever, and that's hard and that's scary. And so you take a couple of steps forward and a couple of steps back.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:22

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield9:23

      And this also applies when we're trying to get somebody back. So suppose you, you broke up with somebody and y- you know, you'll do anything to get them back. That is a slow process, and people think that grand gestures are the way to go. They're not. Grand gestures, like suppose you had a scared cat under a car and, you know, it's been living in your neighborhood for a long time. It's getting hungry. It's not doing well, and you wanna coax it out from under the car, and you decide you're going to dive under the car and grab it by the tail and pull it out. You're never gonna see that cat again if you miss the tail, and that's often what we do with breakups. That's often what we do when we really like people is we dive under that car and we, we make this grand gesture, this big grab. But really what you need to do is very slowly approach that car. Maybe days, for days you do this and you, you know, offer that piece of food or you put out that water, you show that you are a safe person.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:18

      Mm.

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield10:19

      That's an investment and that takes a lot of time and it requires delayed gratification and we don't have a lot of ability for delayed gratification in adult society unfortunately.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:30

      We certainly don't if we are out of regulation and-

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield10:34

       Right

   11. CWChris Williamson10:34

       ... scared and anxious and we know-

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield10:37

       Right

   13. CWChris Williamson10:37

       ... that the attachment wound that we're currently trying to fix, the exact shape and size of it is the same shape and size that that person is there and if only I could get them and slot them in, all of my pain would stop and the quicker that I can do that-

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield10:53

       Right

   15. CWChris Williamson10:53

       ... the more quickly I'm gonna get back into regulation so therefore the grander the gesture they will see how important and impressive and how much I care about them. I just got the bronze medal in the biathlon and I'm gonna do it and a- and the, the, the sky's-

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield11:05

       Right

   17. CWChris Williamson11:06

       ... gonna part and then my dysregulation's gonna be fixed. She's going to see how grand of a gesture this is. It is, it... On his, to kind of defend a guy that's cheated as-

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield11:17

       Right

   19. CWChris Williamson11:17

       ... poorly as I can. Um, the sort of grand gesture thing first off does sound romantic and secondly I think it's, it's coming from a good place, at least the grand gesture thing not the fucking I'm a cheater thing. The grand gesture thing is coming from a good place which is I want to just try my best to show you how much I care and what is being missed is unfortunately a dynamic that exists in pretty much all humans especially humans that have just been slighted or someone that's not feeling particularly receptive to whatever it is that you're gonna try and do to them. They're a kind of a bit of a tough standup comedy audience that are sort of sitting back like, "Go on, make me laugh." And you-

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield12:01

       Right

   21. CWChris Williamson12:01

       ... you, the more cloying that you are the more pliable that you appear the more dysregulated you look. Like hey the situation we just went through was one that was highly unsafe for me.Right? You did a thing that made me unsafe. You broke up with me, or you cheated on me, or you did some- you, you, you mistreated me, or you did something, and now you're steaming in with what to you feels like a grand romantic gesture, but to me just feels like more dysregulation. It's just l- l- you're spewing your unsafety at me.

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield12:30

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson12:30

       So it's important for the person, the protagonist person that's trying to do the winning back, at least as far as I can see, to fucking pump the brakes. To be like, okay, a text that says, "I've been thinking a lot. I'd love, I'd love to speak if, if you have... I- if you'd care to."

   24. MBDr. Max Butterfield12:45

       Yeah. Oh, it... And it's so important to, to just be chill sometimes. And even if you're not feeling that way on the inside, to, to project that kind of confidence, but also-

   25. CWChris Williamson12:57

       Fake it until you regulate it.

   26. MBDr. Max Butterfield12:58

       Oh. Oh my gosh, yes.

   27. CWChris Williamson12:59

       Yes.

   28. MBDr. Max Butterfield13:00

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson13:00

       [laughs]

   30. MBDr. Max Butterfield13:01

       And, and it's like, "Hey, do you wanna grab coffee? Been thinking about you." So simple. You know, you give people that advice, and they're like, "I don't know why I didn't think about that." And that's because your mind is going so many different places. That is what dysregulation is. You're in this fight or flight mode. You're not... I mean, imagine if you just had to go to a comedy show and make people laugh, but you're being chased by a bear. Okay, like, best of luck to you. And that's how it feels when you're pursuing a romantic relationship and things aren't going well. You've got this fight or flight response, you're being chased by a bear, and then you're trying to chase somebody at the same time. You're gonna look like a maniac.
3. 14:03 – 18:58

   The Science of Bouncing Back After a Breakup

   1. CWChris Williamson14:03

      What would be your prescription to somebody who is going through emotionally turbulent relationship stuff, and they're thinking, "I really could do with regulating. This breakup is, is turning me inside out. I can't stop thinking about them," whatever, whatever.

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield14:20

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson14:20

      Uh, what does science say about how people should recover from a breakup?

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield14:26

      There's a couple of different approaches that people take, and for me, mine is distraction. I, I think distraction is very important. Healthy distraction. So don't distract yourself with alcohol, for example. Um, one drink, fine. You know, no, no big deal. But, um, healthy distraction is go to work. Pour yourself into it. Go to school. Pour yourself into it. Um, healthy distraction is hanging out with your friends. Join a new rec league. Play kickball. Whatever. I, you know, I don't care. But whatever you're interested in. If it's video games, that's fine. That is enough to kind of give you a chance to literally calm down, and y- you don't wanna get lost in those things, but just having a couple of good nights where you sleep is really important. And so if you can tire yourself out by lifting heavy, by running long, what- you know, whatever it is, playing soccer, and so you sleep as a result, your body's just gonna start taking care of itself in ways that it just was unable to before.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:22

      Yeah. Another interesting thing that I learned is people's sense of guilt is almost always directly correlated with the likelihood that they're going to be caught. So this is an evolutionary theory, and it makes complete sense that [clears throat] if somebody's ever done something, uh, they, uh, were driving down a road, and a wrapper came out of the car, and there was super strong wind, and it blew away. And you're like, "Ah, I'm never gonna find... No one's ever gonna know." There was... It was in the middle of the night. Uh, or you do it in the middle of a busy neighborhood, and tons of people can see, and they're like, "Did that wrapper just come out of that car? Is that Dr Max Butterfield from Instagram?" Like [clears throat] the, the likelihood-

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield16:06

      I hate that guy.

   7. CWChris Williamson16:06

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield16:07

      [laughs]

   9. CWChris Williamson16:07

      I broke up with my boyfriend because of him.

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield16:10

       [laughs]

   11. CWChris Williamson16:10

       Uh, the likelihood of you being caught is directly correlated with the amount of guilt that you feel. And I just... Every time that I see, uh, situations where someone is under pressure being, um... There's, there's all of these court cases going on at the moment about the Epstein files, right?

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield16:32

       Totally.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:32

       And people are being po- poked and prodded and, and cross-examined or whatever. And I'm looking... 'Cause this is big shit, right? This is really fucking-

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield16:40

       Oh, yeah

   15. CWChris Williamson16:40

       ... this is the biggest case-

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield16:41

       Yeah

   17. CWChris Williamson16:41

       ... in the world right now, and probably the biggest one that'll happen for quite a while, and he's the worst guy in history, and so on and so forth. And I'm looking at these people, and I'm watching them, and I'm thinking, "How's this motherfucker breathing so slowly?" And it's, to me, it's one, one of a few things. Either g- goat meditator breathwork practitioner, uh, with a fucking nervous system like a glass lake, [laughs] um-

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield17:01

       Yeah

   19. CWChris Williamson17:02

       ... didn't do it, and, and importantly didn't do it and doesn't think that he's going to be, uh, falsely accused-

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield17:09

       Sure

   21. CWChris Williamson17:10

       ... of having done it because didn't do it and still might do it, is all of the disadvantages of guilt without any of the benefits of actually having to get away with the fucking thing.

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield17:18

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson17:19

       Uh, or the third one, just straight up doesn't think that he's gonna be caught-

   24. MBDr. Max Butterfield17:22

       Yeah

   25. CWChris Williamson17:22

       ... regardless of whether he did it or not. So yeah, that, I just... It's interesting, especially watching somebody who did it, announced it themselves, or maybe he got caught, he doesn't really say, or he says that he told her. Um, this, like, retrospective guilt thing is real interesting to me because obviously all of the evidence is out there. He's already said it all.

   26. MBDr. Max Butterfield17:40

       Right. And you know, well, there's another possibility as well, and that's drugs. You know, the... [laughs] When you take beta blockers, for example, I don't know if you know about beta blockers, but basically it, it blocks the ability in your body to detect that you're feeling anxious, and they're meant for something else. But, you know, uh, you could take them if you have a... You're, you're gonna go into a, like a billiards tournament, and you don't want shaky hands, so you take beta blockers.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:06

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MBDr. Max Butterfield18:06

       Or you have a big presentation, and you... They're, they're prescription only, so you have to go to your physician to get themBut these beta blockers essentially lower your heart rate, lower your respiration rate, lower your, uh, your blood pressure, like all that stuff. But they also disconnect, so you don't feel that sensation of the beating heart. And so-

   29. CWChris Williamson18:24

       Hmm

   30. MBDr. Max Butterfield18:26

       ... you know, there, there could be any, any variety of-
4. 18:58 – 20:31

   Is a Breakup Really Like Losing Someone?

   1. CWChris Williamson18:58

      W- how similar is grieving a breakup to grieving a death? Like, neurologically, in terms of the way that it, it sort of impacts our attachment system.

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield19:07

      I think in many ways it's the same. Yeah, we're, we're very... We have very blunt instruments in terms of our regulatory systems, and it's like, like fight or flight, for example, the idea that we're being chased by a bear is gonna activate the same systems as getting in a fight with your mom, and maybe not to the same degree, but it's just one system, and it's either on or off. And in many ways, I think grief is the same. And so as a result, a- any kind of loss, whether you lose your dog or your grandma or your romantic partner, w- we just have these blunt instruments that are kind of on or off.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:47

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5. 20:31 – 31:01

   Why Do We Ruminate So Much?

   1. CWChris Williamson20:31

      Why do we ruminate so much? What's the role of rumination?

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield20:36

      There are a variety of theories about that. You know, you mentioned evolutionary theory before, and one idea is that rumination will prevent you from doing this in the future. So this is an applied mechanism that over time, people who tended to ruminate would make less mistakes actually over time. You know, just kind of one theory. And they'd be more likely to survive. So you accidentally cut off your finger with a rock back in the, back in the day, and, you know, you smash it or whatever. That's just kind of basic learning. Don't, don't do that again. And if you're constantly worrying, "Don't smash my finger. Don't smash my finger. Remember that time I smashed my finger-"

   3. CWChris Williamson21:13

      Mm-hmm

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield21:13

      ... you're a lot less likely to smash your finger, and it's the same with breakups or, or anything else. So that, that's one theory. Another is much more, uh, local, kind of present to your own life, and that is it serves a function for you in the moment, which is you ruminate and you get in some ways rewarded by that. It creates maybe stimulation in you, whether it's dopamine or anything else, and that rumination makes... It's rewarding, even though it's punishing at the same time. It's, again, this idea that sometimes punishing things can feel good, like that class clown in fifth grade that gets yelled at by the teacher but all the other students laugh. That punishment is actually reinforcing in, you know, in many ways. So that's, that's another theory is that rumination is this loop that we get stuck in that certainly it makes us feel bad, but also it can be self-continuing. And so different people have different, you know, different approaches to understanding it. For me, I... that's what I like to look at when I'm advising people is, "What function is this serving for you?" And most people say, "What are you talking about? That's not serving any function." And that's why it keeps happening is because we don't have that insight that it actually is doing something, and that's why we have to get to the bottom of it.

   5. CWChris Williamson22:32

      Rick Hanson has a podcast with his son, Forest, called Being Well, and, uh, they did a full episode on rumination, and that was one of the things that I found so fascinating. He ask- gets people to ask this question, um, "What are you getting out of your rumination? What are you getting out of your... What, what is it that-

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield22:48

      Right

   7. CWChris Williamson22:48

      ... it's doing for you?" And you're right. Y- when you first think about that question, you go, "What the fuck do you mean? If I could exorcize this out of me, if I could expunge it from myself, of course I would. I don't want to be thinking about this thing from the past-"

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield23:01

      Like, what are you talking about?

   9. CWChris Williamson23:01

      "... or this stupid-"

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield23:03

       Yeah

   11. CWChris Williamson23:03

       ... "sentence that I said at dinner last night," or, "How that person that I really like probably doesn't like me back and I'm worried that they don't," or whatever. "That, that my girlfriend's gonna find out that I cheated on her." Um, but it is. It is. And a couple of things, a couple of insights that, that I think at least hold a bit of water. One is that the human mind abhors uncertainty so much. Ambiguity and uncertainty are kind of one of the seats of, of, um, like the germinators of anxiety, and if you've got ambiguity and uncertainty, you would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with ambiguity.

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield23:41

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson23:41

       Because w- what happened, what is going to happen, what this means for the future, there is an open loop somewhere, and you're closing it. You're collapsing it down. But because we have a negativity bias, you're collapsing it down to perhaps a situation so bad that even the physics of the universe couldn't allow it to... You, you know, your fucking dead grandmother comes back and she sees that you cheated on your girlfriend, and then-

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield24:01

       Right

   15. CWChris Williamson24:01

       ... the entire univer- Well, I mean, this guy's managed to make the entire world see. Um, you are collapsing down the superposition of all of the uncertainty into something, and it just goes to show how much humans abhor-... uh, ambiguity and uncertainty that we would rather imagine a catastrophe than deal with not knowing.

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield24:20

       Right.

   17. CWChris Williamson24:21

       Uh, I think that's, that's kind of, that's, that's a pretty cool insight.

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield24:24

       Well, and another, another element of this is that our brains are also cognitive misers. They wanna take the path of least resistance. They wanna do the thing that's easiest. And so if you wear in a path, and this is, you know, very much kinda glossing over a lot of details, but if you wear in a path, that path is gonna get used again, and it's gonna get used again and again. And so if you ruminate once, you're a little more likely to ruminate again. And if you ruminate again, and you s- [chuckles] you see where this is going, this isn't good.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:54

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield24:54

       So if we have an evolved tendency to ruminate, and it can serve a function for us, and it's self-reinforcing just because of cognitive architecture, we're kinda doomed in a lot of ways once that rumination starts, unless there's intervention. And interventions, I mean, therapy can be helpful, but there are other interventions as well. Just, you know, breaking your routine, going somewhere else-

   21. CWChris Williamson25:18

       Mm-hmm

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield25:18

       ... doing something else.

   23. CWChris Williamson25:19

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MBDr. Max Butterfield25:19

       It doesn't always have to be therapy. Therapy's good for some people. Um, but for others, you can do this without, you know, this serious kinda costly intervention. It's like, do something else. Think about something else.

   25. CWChris Williamson25:33

       Yeah, it, it, it seems like you're suggesting that the content of your thoughts after a difficult period are, are pretty important, that if you want to get over whatever it is that's happening, giving yourself some fresh territory to inhabit. Ah, fuck, I, I really, really hate the way that if my partner's been on a night out, that I worry about them the next morning and whether I've got a text or that I, I, every morning I wake up and I think about that girl and hasn't, she hasn't texted me back or whatever. It's like, okay, well, maybe if you do something different because your thoughts are attached to the patterns that you've been behaving, the fact that you get up and look at your phone straight away, or the fact that you get up and go to that part of the house in order to get breakfast. Well, maybe if you got up and went straight to a coffee shop, that pattern's-

   26. MBDr. Max Butterfield26:16

       Right

   27. CWChris Williamson26:16

       ... already disrupted the way that you operate-

   28. MBDr. Max Butterfield26:19

       Exactly

   29. CWChris Williamson26:19

       ... and therefore it's gonna disrupt the way that you think.

   30. MBDr. Max Butterfield26:22

       Exactly. You know, if you wake up and you check your phone instantly, put your phone somewhere else. Put it in the garage, put it in the car before you go to bed. It, it's not... It doesn't have to be complicated. It just is switch things up a little bit. And I think people overcomplicate, especially people who tend to ruminate. They're like, "Well, there has to be a complicated solution."
6. 31:01 – 32:32

   How Rejection Shapes US

   1. CWChris Williamson31:01

      Very cool. Talk to me about high rejection sensitivity. I, I had an inclination about this, but I'd never heard it as a formal term before I started looking at-

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield31:10

      Yeah

   3. CWChris Williamson31:10

      ... your work.

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield31:11

      Yeah. So rejection sensitivity is basically do you like rejection or not, and most people don't, so it's normal not to like it. But how much does it affect you downstream? And some people, what happens is they are so sensitive to being rejected that they see signs of it even when they haven't been rejected at all. So you send me a text, and I don't respond instantly. If you were high in rejection sensitivity, it's, "Oh, he hates me, and probably he never wants to talk to me again. And you know what? I'm never gonna talk to him again. I'll show him." And so what that, what that does is it creates these turbulent social environments where you are now seeing... It's a lens that you see rejection everywhere, even when it's just ambiguous. Sometimes people don't text right back. And so rejection sensitivity has been associated with neurodivergence in some ways, so you, you will occasionally see it in people with autism or people with ADHD. Uh, you'll see it in people with personality disorders at a much higher rate. Be- And the reason why isn't necessarily because it's causing those disorders, but it's part of a constellation of behaviors and kind of just ways of living and lenses of viewing the world.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:31

      Yeah.

7. 32:32 – 37:52

   How Can We Better Signal Interest?

   1. CWChris Williamson32:33

      What about... What... Talk to me about some of the ways that you wish more men and women knew, um, how to signal interest, 'cause I think this is something, uh, I'm seeing more of online now. Maybe this is kind of the progeny of a post-Me Too world where men have been taught not only that no means no, but that anything short of a really, really obvious hell yeah is probably get the fuck away from me.

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield32:59

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson32:59

      And they don't want to make women feel uncomfortable, and they don't wanna blow through boundaries that aren't there, and they're scared of being a part of some Me Too, and they're just good people generally. Uh, so I'm seeing more... There was a video of a girl talking about how in New York people, wom-w- women are stealing finance bros' salads. There's-

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield33:19

      I've seen that.

   5. CWChris Williamson33:20

      [laughs]

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield33:21

      Yeah, absolutely.

   7. CWChris Williamson33:22

      There's a, a girl walking through Central Park with, like, pretty big boobs and no top on... Uh, no top on, no, uh, bra on, saying like, "No, my skin's glowing and no guy's gonna come up and talk to me."

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield33:31

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:31

      There's another one of a girl walking in a maxi dress, this party dress down the street, and the caption's something like, "Can't wait to go out and have no guy come up to me at the bar." Um, what do you wish more men and women knew about how to signal interest?

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield33:44

       Yeah. It's much simpler than you would imagine. You don't need tricks. The easiest way to do it is say, "Hey, you're cute," or whatever. I don't know what people say. Uh, normal people, human beings. You know, but you can say whatever. You can say, "Hey, I like you," or, "Hey, that's, uh, killer boots." That is, that is a great phrase. Not super dangerous, you know? Th- that's the danger I think with, uh, with flirting and signaling interest is that you can go too far. You can absolutely go overboard.

   11. CWChris Williamson34:12

       Mm.

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield34:12

       And commenting on people's bodies, for example, don't, probably don't do that. Um, commenting on their clothes is body adjacent, and so that can be dangerous as well. Like-

   13. CWChris Williamson34:22

       Bo- [laughs] Body adjacent.

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield34:25

       [laughs] Yeah. It, it really is, you know? It's like, "Oh, that, that top is pretty tight, huh?" You know? Like-

   15. CWChris Williamson34:32

       [laughs]

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield34:33

       [laughs]

   17. CWChris Williamson34:34

       Yeah.

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield34:34

       Um, and so you do have to be careful. Flirting by its very nature is ambiguous. That's why it's good. People have lost the ability in many ways to flirt because... Not because of Me Too, but because I think people took flirting a little too far in the workplace, in schools, and as a result we had to teach them, "Okay, stop doing that. You know, stop commenting on people's bodies. That's not-"

   19. CWChris Williamson34:57

       Mm-hmm

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield34:58

       ... welcome in, in some, in some cases. But I think that's why being forthright is helpful, but it's hard because you have to put yourself out there, whereas with flirting it's like, "Oh, maybe I like you, maybe I don't, so you can't reject me-

   21. CWChris Williamson35:09

       Mm

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield35:09

       ... if I haven't actually signaled that I like you." But I feel like this has been going on a really long time. I had a moment when I was teaching a class probably eight years ago, and this was when apps were, you know, they were, I wouldn't say the dominant form of find- dating apps, of finding people, but they had become much more prevalent than they used to be. And there was this guy who I really liked in class, this student, and I'd had him for a couple courses, and he had gotten a text from a girl, and he didn't know how to respond. And there were in class probably 15 people giving him advice on what to text back-

   23. CWChris Williamson35:45

       [laughs]

   24. MBDr. Max Butterfield35:45

       ... at once. And my reaction was, in my head, was, "Oh, no. Like, this isn't... They're debating things that are so basic."

   25. CWChris Williamson35:56

       Mm.

   26. MBDr. Max Butterfield35:57

       "They're in their head so much they don't have a chance, these poor kids." And so I think we have to get back to the basics in many ways, and it's very difficult on social media. It's very difficult through text because you don't have that back and forth. If I tell you a joke in person, I tease you a little bit, that's much more obvious, but if I send a text, it's like, "Was he being sarcastic?"

   27. CWChris Williamson36:19

       Mm.

   28. MBDr. Max Butterfield36:19

       You know? "Was that... What did he mean by that?" And that, those were all the questions that they were debating back and forth.

   29. CWChris Williamson36:23

       Mm.

   30. MBDr. Max Butterfield36:24

       Like, how do I respond to that?So part of it is just the limitations in the way we communicate.
8. 37:52 – 44:30

   Why Women Signal Beauty Through Clothing

   1. CWChris Williamson37:52

      Uh, you mentioned, uh, people's outfits. What does science say about why women dress up?

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield37:58

      There's a, there's a lot of back and forth about that. And, you know, there's arguments from the evolutionary psych side, uh, cultural psych, um, maybe personality, you know, a variety of things. Y- uh, all that to say, I don't think science says anything. I think people have theories. I think there's evidence in one way or another. But in, in my opinion, the evidence that's most persuasive is that it depends, and depends on the context. So in many cases, women dress up to impress each other more so than to impress men. And that seems counterintuitive because, like, why, why would they do that? But there are a lot of reasons why you might wanna do that. Women have a social hierarchy in the same way that men do, and they don't want their mate to get poached. And so you have to show not just the man that you're an attractive person. You have to show other women, like, "Don't mess with me. You're wasting your time." So personally, I find that explanation and that evidence to be pretty persuasive, but not everyone does.

   3. CWChris Williamson38:58

      Mm. Yeah, it's an interesting one. I, I mean, I've seen so many different studies. There was a, a great one that I learned about from, uh, not Joyce Benenson or Candice Blake, uh, not Corey Clark. Someone else. One of the, one of the evolutionary psychology ladies taught me this great study where they had a protagonist, this, uh... What, what do they call the, the person that's the actor in a study? What's it called?

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield39:26

      Typically... I don't know, actually.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:29

      Com-

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield39:29

      I usually use target-

   7. CWChris Williamson39:30

      Not compa- not compatriots?

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield39:31

      I use target and actor personally.

   9. CWChris Williamson39:33

      Okay. Well, whoever that is. Uh, one version of the study, same, same woman twice. One version of the study, uh, she's wearing quite revealing clothing. Second version of the study, she's wearing pretty covered up clothing. And two people who think they're about to go into the study are waiting outside. The classic it's begun before you think it's begun thing.

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield39:49

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson39:49

       The protagonist goes up, asks them for directions, and then they did, uh, vocal analysis, sort of microexpression tracking, body language changes and stuff. And the same woman in m- much more conservative clothing that sort of quite kind and pass her on the way or, or just say whatever. I don't think they know where they need to, to send her in any case. And then in the other version of it, uh, there's sort of this, like, this sort of look up and down, and then, "Did you see what she was... " No, no, no, no, no, no. Um, so I don't think... I mean, guys might notice the fact that she was more revealing, but I don't think that it would be from the clothes.

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield40:23

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson40:23

       I don't think that they're paying as much attention. I think this is the thing that women don't understand about what guys notice about women.

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield40:30

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson40:31

       I mean, there was that great study y- you, you talked about. What was that study to do with the Armani suits?

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield40:36

       Yeah. It's a classic, classic study in, um, just this idea that there is competition, um, i- intrasexual competition, competition among women and be- between each other. And so the study shows that if you put guys in Armani suits versus Burger King attire, wear the uniform, whatever, and you ask women... Same guy. So, like, you have you wearing Burger King, and you have you wearing Armani suits. And you ask women which version of Chris... Now, and you wouldn't say it that way. It's like, "Do you think Chris is attractive?" And the Armani suit Chris, people are like, "Yeah." And in the Burger King uniform, people are like, women are like, "Um, no." Same guy, just different clothes. Are... You know, is he attractive? Is he powerful? Is he somebody you'd wanna date and mate with? Not really, no. But if you do that with women, the guys are like, "Yeah, she's hot." Doesn't matter what she's wearing, whether it's the powerful, you know, business attire, whether it's the Burger King uniform. And this study has been replicated many, many times. First, first kind of discussed in the '90s, and it has continued to, you know, be investigated in many, many different ways. And, and so I look at that and I talk about that and I say, "Yeah, so women are pigs just like men." You know? I mean, it's very-

   17. CWChris Williamson41:59

       [laughs]

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield41:59

       Like, we, we have our own domains-

   19. CWChris Williamson42:01

       Correct

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield42:01

       ... of being a pig, so.

   21. CWChris Williamson42:03

       Yeah. They're slightly, they're slightly different, and they're pointed in different directions. Yeah. Uh, I think it's, it's kind of tragic in some ways that, uh, the amount of effort that women go through thinking that there is some sort of male judge or tyrant that's ki- this panopticon fucking godlike figure looking over them to judge their beauty standards when the call is very much coming from inside of the house. And if, if all womendidn't like the beauty standards that were being enforced, I feel like if they were somehow able to do, uh, god's-eye coordination and all say, "Okay, well, why don't we all try and have less long hair, and less long nails, and less high heels, and less t- tan, and all the rest of the stuff? We can kind of bring the market down together, and guys are probably not gonna fucking notice." And, and-

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield42:55

       No, when's the last time you heard a guy say, "Did you see her nails?"

   23. CWChris Williamson42:58

       Dude, it's, it is-

   24. MBDr. Max Butterfield42:59

       [laughs]

   25. CWChris Williamson42:59

       ... it is wild. I mean, that's the other thing, that jewelry is a, a, a sort of area of attire that, uh, most guys I don't think really pay any attention to. The difference between a $50 bag and a $10,000 Birkin or a Louis Vuitton bag or something, the difference between this brand of shoes from the high street and this brand of shoes that's, you know, $1,000, we have no idea. Like, who do you-

   26. MBDr. Max Butterfield43:24

       No

   27. CWChris Williamson43:24

       ... who do you think that this is for? But the same thing, the same exact fucking dynamic is true. Guys, how much do you think that woman knows about the specific sporting cup edition Recaro seats that you've got inside of your BMW M3?

   28. MBDr. Max Butterfield43:42

       Right.

   29. CWChris Williamson43:42

       Like, do, do... Oh, oh, but this is a limited edition because it's got the, the twin tip exhausts at the back, and they're the black. The, and then there's the Alcantara seat in the middle.

   30. MBDr. Max Butterfield43:50

       Right.
9. 44:30 – 47:02

   Is She Actually Out of His League?

   1. CWChris Williamson44:30

      Uh, is, is a man saying, uh, "You're too good for me," or, "You're out of my league," is that a red flag? I saw someone saying that that's a red flag.

   2. MBDr. Max Butterfield44:38

      I don't think so. I mean, it... Well, let me re... Let me back that up. Can it be? Yes, but not out of context. You have to consider why is he saying that? So if you give that as blanket advice, no, that, that is not a red flag. It could be, it could be a green flag. You know, it could indicate humility. But the reality there is we don't have more information about why did that guy say it. And so this is about investment rather than, you know, creating these rules. People want it fast. They wanna be like, "Okay, this guy said this thing, therefore he's a good guy." Yeah, that's, that's like a magic spell, and that is not how relationships are built. They're, you know, they're built over time. They're built by getting to know people. And there, there's just no way of... I mean, there are a few things people could say that would be a red flag. Like, "Hey, I'm gonna murder you."

   3. CWChris Williamson45:30

      [laughs] Mm-hmm.

   4. MBDr. Max Butterfield45:30

      But even then, I just said it, and that's not... But out, you know, out of context, maybe. Now, you know, you clip this and, and it's like, oh, he's... Dr Max Butterfield is after, he's after Chris.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:41

      Yep. Yep.

   6. MBDr. Max Butterfield45:41

      This is, this is big trouble here.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:42

      Yep.

   8. MBDr. Max Butterfield45:43

      But, uh, you know, that's why context is so important. There's no shortcuts.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:48

      I think this is sort of much of the meta theme of what you're doing with your content, which is to say if we take very short, uh, out of context pieces of relationship situation and then apply a universal rule from that, we end up getting in all sorts of trouble. Uh, it's so super fucking squirrely because, yeah, I mean, "You're too good for me" is, if said by a guy who's quite high status and self-assured, actually quite a nice compliment, and it can be done in such a cute, flirty way.

   10. MBDr. Max Butterfield46:29

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson46:29

       Like, "You're just too good for me. Like, how, how have I ended up with a girl like you?" You know, that's-

   12. MBDr. Max Butterfield46:35

       Right

   13. CWChris Williamson46:35

       ... that's a nice thing to hear. I... Especially if it's done from a place of, uh, not sort of pliable simping.

   14. MBDr. Max Butterfield46:42

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson46:42

       But it's, it's, it's genuinely done out, out of a... Look, and w- we both know that we're good for each other, but-

   16. MBDr. Max Butterfield46:47

       Right

   17. CWChris Williamson46:47

       ... uh, that's cool. And to, to look at your date as she walks through, even on the third date, and he goes, "Dude, you are so out of my league. Holy shit," like, that's f- that's cool.

   18. MBDr. Max Butterfield46:57

       Beautiful.

   19. CWChris Williamson46:58

       I, I think that's good.

   20. MBDr. Max Butterfield46:59

       Right, right.

   21. CWChris Williamson46:59

       But-

   22. MBDr. Max Butterfield47:00

       That's the rom-com writing right there.

10. 47:02 – 50:32

    The Red Flags You Shouldn’t Ignore

    1. CWChris Williamson47:02

       Exactly. So w- okay. W- Are there things, such things as real red flags? And so beyond the obvious shit of like, "I'm gonna eat you and, and bury your bones in the yard," what about red flags that people should pay attention to?

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield47:17

       I think there are certainly some, you know, and big ones are m- maybe not what's being said. Uh, they could be what's being done. You know, behavior matters a lot more than what people say because people... Let me back it up and say there's a behavior intention gap. And so I might want to do a lot of really nice things for someone, but if I never do that, okay, that's a red flag. And that's a pattern over time is do I follow through or not? And okay, that, that's important. An, uh, an inability to regulate emotions. You know, we talked about this already. That's a major red flag. If you see these outbursts of anger, even if it's just minor ones leaking out.

    3. CWChris Williamson48:00

       Hmm.

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield48:01

       You know, something goes wrong, you punch a wall.

    5. CWChris Williamson48:04

       [laughs]

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield48:04

       Yeah, that's, that's worth looking at. And, and it's not... I have punched a wall when I was 13, you know? And so, like, was that a red flag back then? Yeah, I wasn't fully emotionally developed.

    7. CWChris Williamson48:16

       People shouldn't have dated you when you were 13.

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield48:18

       Right, and they didn't, let me tell you. So [laughs]

    9. CWChris Williamson48:21

       Tell Epstein.

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield48:22

        Right. Yeah. Uh, you know, and that's a red flag. Like, what are people doing under the cover of secrecy, you know? I- if, what are they doing... And, and if you find out that-The, again, they're... What they say they're doing is different from what they're actually doing. That, that's worth looking at. So ultimately for me, I guess the, the short answer to your question is it's about consistency and it's about regulation. So do actions match up with intentions? And are they a calm person? And do they be- can they, do they have the, the ability to become calm when they get dysregulated? 'Cause we all get dysregulated at times.

    11. CWChris Williamson49:02

        Exactly. That, I was gonna... That's exactly what I was gonna say, that not everybody is calm. And so you don't want-

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield49:07

        No

    13. CWChris Williamson49:07

        ... necessarily want somebody who is always calm.

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield49:09

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson49:09

        It's actually kinda cool to be someone who's excitable and, and, and-

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield49:12

        Oh, totally

    17. CWChris Williamson49:13

        ... maybe actually there's a useful time for them to get angry, especially if it's on your behalf. But it's, if, yeah, if you're late for the flight and you just make it, does that ruin the entire holiday?

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield49:25

        Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson49:26

        Or by the time that the flight's landed, has everybody been able to sort of burble their emotions back down?

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield49:31

        Right. Exactly.

    21. CWChris Williamson49:33

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11. 50:32 – 56:36

    Why the Evolutionary Approach to Relationships is So Fascinating

    1. CWChris Williamson50:32

       Yeah, the, um... I mean, that's from David Buss. It's the number one trait that he says to look for in a partner, which is, uh, emotional stability. How long after some sort of emotional perturbment that takes you away from baseline does it take your partner to get back to baseline? And the shorter that that window is, the better. And what that-

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield50:50

       Yeah. And to, and to, to give credit where credit is due, I probably got that from David. David is like my research grandpa. So he had a student, Sarah Hill, who was my PhD advisor.

    3. CWChris Williamson50:58

       King. Absolute king.

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield50:58

       And, uh-

    5. CWChris Williamson50:58

       No way! You studied under Sarah?

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:00

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson51:01

       Holy shit.

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:02

       Yeah. So, you know, so it's that-

    9. CWChris Williamson51:04

       I spoke at-

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:04

        ... it's that classic lineage

    11. CWChris Williamson51:05

        ... I, I, I spoke at her HBESS symposium two years ago.

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:09

        Did you?

    13. CWChris Williamson51:09

        Yep. Yep.

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:10

        Oh, that's awesome.

    15. CWChris Williamson51:11

        I was by far the least credentialed person in the room, or the only person in the room with a master's level education, surrounded by PhD, double PhD, post-doc doctorate. Fucking Don Touhey was there. This was before, uh, John Touhey passed away.

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:23

        Yeah. Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson51:23

        So fucking John Touhey sat in the front row as I'm speaking my 15-minute, uh-

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:28

        That, that's when you need the beta blockers, you know?

    19. CWChris Williamson51:30

        I-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:30

        That's, that's-

    21. CWChris Williamson51:30

        Bro, I, I wanted to feel all of that. That was... It was fantastic.

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:33

        Yeah. Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson51:33

        It was in Palm Springs. It was at this great place. So, um, but yeah, Sarah's wonderful. She taught me about another one, uh, this great study that was done. It was... You'll probably be familiar with it, to do with ovulatory shift hypotheses. Or, or maybe it was Cristina Durante. It's one of the two.

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield51:48

        Yeah. Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson51:48

        And, um, they had the same guy dressed in leather jacket, smoking, super cool with his hair done, or another version where he was much more nerdy and he was wearing a sort of sweater vest type thing, almost like a Big Bang Theory caricature.

    26. MBDr. Max Butterfield52:04

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson52:05

        And in both iterations of the study, women went in. One... It's the same guy, right?

    28. MBDr. Max Butterfield52:11

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson52:11

        The absolute same guy. Women go in, uh, and see the first guy. Women go in and see the second guy. But they're told that they're twins, so they don't know that it's the same dude both times.

    30. MBDr. Max Butterfield52:21

        Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
12. 56:36 – 1:03:51

    The Green Flags to Look For in a Partner

    1. CWChris Williamson56:36

       so.

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield56:36

       Right.

    3. CWChris Williamson56:36

       Do, are you familiar with Tai Toshiro's work? Did you ever come across his stuff s-

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield56:40

       Some. Yeah, certainly some.

    5. CWChris Williamson56:40

       Yeah, so he has, he has these three traits. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on these. So he's got, um, conscientia... Uh, three, three green flags that, uh, most people should generally prioritize on finding in a partner.

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield56:51

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson56:51

       Conscientiousness. So I think he calls it thoughtfulness, but what he means is conscientiousness.

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield56:56

       Sure.

    9. CWChris Williamson56:57

       Um, do you pay attention? Are you sort of reliable? Can you get things done? Have you got agency? Do you, do you care about the partner, and, uh, have you got the ability to make that caring happen? Uh, second one is, uh, agreeable, so somebody who is "yes, and," not "no, but."

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:13

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson57:13

        Uh, typically doesn't make everything into a fight or a disagreement, tends to be supportive as opposed to sort of conflict. Uh, and then the third one is at most moderate openness. Um, he says you don't want too much openness because then you get into the realm of somebody who's got a wandering eye. They're kind of-

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:31

        Right

    13. CWChris Williamson57:31

        ... unpredictable. It's very hard to lock in a routine. You-

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:34

        Right

    15. CWChris Williamson57:34

        ... Are they gonna wanna go polyamorous in 15 years' time when the kids are t- a little bit older?

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:39

        Right.

    17. CWChris Williamson57:39

        Uh, when you definitely don't. Uh, but you also don't want no openness-

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:43

        Right

    19. CWChris Williamson57:43

        ... because then you've got no adventure in your life, and-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:46

        Right

    21. CWChris Williamson57:47

        ... d- d- nothing is ever gonna change. So what do you think of that? We've got conscientiousness, we got agreeableness, and we got sort of moderate openness as generally prioritized traits for people in, in relationships.

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield57:57

        Yeah. What immediately strikes me is that that sounds great for me in my life where I am right now. And I also know if you asked this question to my college students, my 20-year-olds, they might want much higher openness, and they might actually prefer less conscientiousness. 'Cause, like, I don't want this guy or this girl that's just focused on school. Like, I want somebody that wants to have fun. And so that's what I would add to this, is like it's great to have these rules, uh, guidelines, however, personality traits, especially the big five, tho- those, those three, um, they vary throughout the lifespan, and people are not aware of this, that personality changes actually. And that's why I have a beef... I'll tell you, I have a beef with personality in general-

    23. CWChris Williamson58:38

        Hmm

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield58:38

        ... because it's very situation specific. I, I always ask this in my class when I teach personality. I say, "How many people in here are liars?" And, like, one kid will raise his hand. Now, you know, it's always a little startling to get that, uh, you know, admission, but most people are like, "No, I'm not a liar." And then I say, "How many people lie?" Everybody-

    25. CWChris Williamson58:56

        Hmm

    26. MBDr. Max Butterfield58:56

        ... raises their hand. What is personality then? What, what is the point if it varies from situation to situation and it doesn't describe what people are actually doing? So all that to say, um, I think those traits are, are high, high-quality traits, but I also think they vary so much situationally that it's really hard to assess, and they vary over time so much that it might not be what you want tomorrow, and it might not be what you want in 30 years.

    27. CWChris Williamson59:23

        Hmm.

    28. MBDr. Max Butterfield59:24

        And so I wouldn't use it as a way to pick a partner, but I would use it as a, a lens. Are we compatible in this moment?

    29. CWChris Williamson59:32

        Hmm. Yeah, I suppose some sort of cognitive flexibility is probably pretty important as well. Like-

    30. MBDr. Max Butterfield59:37

        Yes
13. 1:03:51 – 1:11:18

    The Power of a Psychological Reset

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:51

       Is there anything by way of practice or prescription or mantra that has helped you in the times where the uncertainty really starts to sort of twist the wet rag inside of your stomach and make you feel uncomfortable?

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:04:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:05

       Where do you go to to, "Uncertainty is a part of life, and I need to be able to be comfortable with it"? What-

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:04:10

       Yeah. I have run probably 16,000 miles I think at last count in the last 10 years, and that helps. [laughs]

    5. CWChris Williamson1:04:19

       Fuck me. Yeah, man.

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:04:20

       [laughs]

    7. CWChris Williamson1:04:21

       Well, it's that thing about you can't run away from your problems-

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:04:23

       No

    9. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       ... but you might have to run away from your uncertainties.

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:04:23

        No, I'm... No, well, you can. You can. Yeah, you absolutely can. No, but that's the thing, you can. But what, for me, that is not a lesson everybody should take. You know, I really, I always, I enjoy working out. I enjoy being active. Um, but running in particular, I hated running growing up. That was a punishment in all the other sports that I played. But I found when I slowed down, I had this shoulder injury, and I had to stop playing basketball, and so I started running. And when I slowed down, what I realized is it gave me time to think, and I would have a thought that would bother me on this run, and it would bother me, and I would think about it, and I would think about it, and then I would see a bird, and that thought would go away. And if it was important, it would come back, and I would think about it again and again and again, and then I would have to get out of the way of a car, and it would go away. And eventually, that process of thinking and leaving it and thinking and leaving it, I, it really helped me just kinda deal with-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:05:18

        Mm

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:05:18

        ... everything that was going on. And it's not a cure-all for sure. But in many ways, that was a meditative pra- I hate meditation, but running is a meditative practice for me.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:05:28

        That's the same.

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:05:28

        And-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:05:29

        You know how many people... My, my housemate George is, every morning, the yard, pool outside, I come downstairs, and he's 45 minutes into a 60-minute meditation. 'Cause for him, he's just found the button that he can press.

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:05:44

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:05:45

        And for you, that would sound more like torture. Alex O'Connor, Douglas Murray, two British friends of mine, both of them, Sam Harris has tried to teach them live to meditate. You know, this guy teaches probably millions of people that have got his app.

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:05:56

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:05:57

        And they got a cust- a, a, in-person, live-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:06:00

        Yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson1:06:00

        ... meditation thing, and they would have rather stuck pins through their fingers-

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:06:04

        Oh, me too. Exactly the same

    23. CWChris Williamson1:06:06

        ... than, than done that. They would, they would have, they would have rather fought Sam Harris in Brazilian jujitsu than, than been tr- taught to try and fucking-

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:06:13

        Right

    25. CWChris Williamson1:06:13

        ... meditate by him. So yeah, again-

    26. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:06:15

        Right

    27. CWChris Williamson1:06:15

        ... this is... What I like is the... There are generally accepted principles that are probably better and worse for your life, but there are no universal rules that work for everybody.

    28. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:06:24

        Right. And so just getting that experience and learning what works for you is gonna require some trial and error. And the biggest thing, the biggest mistake I would say that people make is trying something, having it not work, and then not trying anything else or feeling like you can't try because you don't wanna quit. For me, that was... I've quit everything. I, you know, I... Like, y- you read the intro when I came in, and it's like, yeah, I, I did a master's degree in clinical psych. I, I did not like being a therapist, so I quit. I, I studied in seminary. I hated it, so I quit. I quit football in seventh grade, since I'm confessing everything.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:07:00

        [laughs]

    30. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:07:03

        Coach yelled at me one too many times.
14. 1:11:18 – 1:16:27

    Why We Need to Be Direct in Our Communication

    1. CWChris Williamson1:11:19

       Yeah, I, um, I, I... It's, it's so, it's so cool to think about how we can step into our own programming. It's one of my favorite things. Uh, speaking of programming, the way that people communicate on the internet, there was that Jonah Hill thing a couple of years ago where his texts got leaked, I think, by his ex-

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:11:36

       Yeah

    3. CWChris Williamson1:11:36

       ... and he was using all of his therapy language. Uh, I saw you react to a video. "If I tell you to leave me alone and you leave me alone-

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:11:42

       Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson1:11:42

       ... you're legit dead to me."

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:11:44

       [chuckles] Right.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:11:45

       What do you think of that?

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:11:46

       I-- [chuckles] In some ways, it, it depends. Uh, but in general, I don't think that's a very fun game. I don't... You know, I don't like playing that game where you have to guess at what people mean. It's like, "Don't talk to me," means talk to me. I don't know about you. I'm not good at decoding those kinds of signals personally. H-how, how are you supposed to know? So yeah, I, I think being straightforward weirdly has to be-- It's a skill that can be developed, and younger people are less likely to have that skill. I remember when I was younger, in college especially, I didn't know how to communicate how I was really feeling to people, and I also didn't know if it was safe to do that. And so you use this kind of, like, angle to get there, and they go, "How..." You, you know, "I'm, I'm looking sad today. You know, I wanna make sure-- I want somebody to notice that I'm looking sad today." And they go, "Oh, you look sad today. Are you sad?" And I go, "No. Why do you ask?"

    9. CWChris Williamson1:12:44

       [laughs]

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:12:45

        [chuckles] 'Cause I want them to ask more. I want them to dig deeper, you know? So I was so close but not quite there, and that is odd to me that we would need to teach people to be straightforward, and yet here we are.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:12:58

        Because there's more effort needed to obfuscate the thing that we actually want.

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:13:02

        Right.It's like, what are you doing? Why are you playing that game? And I think in many ways it's self-protective. It's kinda like flirting, but with your emotions. Like making them prove that they care about me enough to dig deeper, and yet I don't-- It doesn't require me to put myself out there. I don't have to... It is hard to say. Like, if I say to you, "Hey Chris, I'm feeling sad today. I don't know, like, this interview, I don't, I don't know how it's gonna go." Y- you-- Can you imagine if I had started that way? You'd been like, "Oh. Uh, okay." You know? And that's... So you have to pick your spots. But at the same time, if you are in fact feeling sad, which I'm not, by the way, but there, there... This is great. But there is a, uh, there's a way to reveal that that's more socially appropriate. And I think that's where the skill is really, um, learnable.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:13:47

        Why do women say things like, "Leave me alone," but actually mean the opposite?

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:13:56

        How should I know? No. Uh, I th- So I think it can be for a variety of reasons. We could look at it through a cultural lens, and I think culturally, women have been more penalized, uh, for sharing openly than men have h- historically. I think today, you know, it could go either way. Maybe men are even being penalized more. But I think that's one lens of explanation that people sometimes use, is that women have, have had to be very careful in how they communicate, and that has been transmitted across time to women today, even if it's not as true as it used to be. So okay, so that's, that's maybe one lens. Another is that truly, social media communication teaches them to do it. And so that is, it's like, "Hey ladies, this is what you have to do. Never tell a guy X, instead do ABC." And other times it can just be learning. You know, you learn over time, like when you're in fifth grade, that if you pretend to be sad around a boy, he'll pay extra attention to you.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:14:57

        Mm.

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:14:58

        And then you never learn a better skill. Well, you're still doing that when you're 30, and now people are dealing with it, you know, on, when you're trying to connect with them on Hinge or whatever.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:15:08

        Mm. Mm-hmm. I, uh, Joe Hudson, friend of mine, his daughter was seven years old, crying in the bathtub, and she'd been crying in there quite regularly over the last couple of weeks. And he went in, and the way that she was crying sounded kind of angry at the same time, and he said, "Hey, y- you know when you're crying, how, how often are you sad and how often are you pissed off?" She said, "Pissed off." He said, "Okay, well, why, how, why are you crying if you're, if you're angry?" She said, "Well, when I'm angry, everyone runs away. But when I cry, my sister comes and gives me a hug."

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:15:44

        Exactly.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:15:45

        So there is this-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:15:46

        Exactly

    21. CWChris Williamson1:15:46

        ... the re- It's not just the message, it's the way that that's received. And, uh, yeah, I th- I think it's a difficult one. Uh, putting us... Learning direct communication or not speaking in shadow sentences, right? Not, not-

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:16:01

        Right

    23. CWChris Williamson1:16:01

        ... pointing in the direction of the thing that you mean, but saying it in a way where you don't plant what you want so that it can't be denied, so that you can't ever be invalidated, but you also deny the person the opportunity of actually giving you what it is that you want. The, the, it's kind of the same as telling somebody to hit the bullseye on a dartboard, but they've gotta have their eyes closed.

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:16:22

        Right.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:16:23

        Uh, or you're moving it like this all the time. [laughs] Uh,

15. 1:16:27 – 1:21:36

    The Hidden Role of Indirect Aggression

    1. CWChris Williamson1:16:27

       yeah. W- okay. I guess passive aggression, uh, s- shadow sentencing stuff is similar-

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:16:31

       Yeah

    3. CWChris Williamson1:16:32

       ... to passive aggression. What's the role of passive aggression in relationships? Do you know why it comes about?

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:16:36

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:16:36

       What, what, what its role is?

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:16:38

       Yeah, absolutely. So there, uh, sometimes researchers will call it indirect aggression as well. Uh, you know, there's multiple names depending on which angle in the literature you, you're taking. And that too is one that has been debated and kind of misunderstood over time. It used to be thought that men were aggressive-aggressive, and then women were passive aggressive or indirectly aggressive. And what more rec- kind of recent research has shown is that men are just more aggressive across the board. [laughs] And-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:17:07

       Including indirectly?

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:17:08

       Yes. Yeah, yeah. So they have maybe equal levels of women, uh, with indirect, but then when you add, or maybe even a little less, but then when you add aggression-aggression, it's like, no, guys are in fact more aggressive. But women, I think, are more, uh, I wouldn't say it's rewarded. It's more socially appropriate for women to be indirectly aggressive, typically. And it's also less dangerous.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:17:32

       Mm.

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:17:33

        So think about it this way. If you say to a buddy, you know, you're fighting, and you take a swing at him, you're probably gonna hold your own at worst. You personally, I mean. You're a big guy, you know? You're g- you're gonna, you're gonna hold, hold your own at worst. If a woman takes a swing at her guy friend in anger, that's very dangerous. And so as a result, women tend to use passive aggression or indirect aggression a bit more simply because it's a, it's a safer outlet. And I think, I, you know, this is not my area of specialization, but I think there's some evidence that shows that when women are dealing with other women, they're a lot more likely to be aggressive-aggressive than to be, than if they were dealing with men.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:18:17

        Because the-

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:18:18

        It's-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:18:18

        ... potential physical repercussion coming back to them, given that they're more fragile and more valuable evolutionarily, they're less likely-

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:18:25

        Right

    15. CWChris Williamson1:18:25

        ... they're less likely to have lethal force be applied because the imbalance just isn't there.

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:18:30

        Correct. I'd have to go back and check on that one.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:18:31

        Makes total-

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:18:31

        I'm almost positive that right now

    19. CWChris Williamson1:18:32

        ... makes, uh, make, make-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:18:33

        Yeah

    21. CWChris Williamson1:18:33

        ... makes total sense. I mean, uh, female intrasexual competition is the [laughs] least popular on the internet, most fascin- It's the, it's got the biggest disparity between, um, how much you're allowed to talk about it or how little you're allowed to talk about it, and how fascinating it is to study.

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:18:50

        Right.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:18:51

        It is fucking endlessly interesting. You know, Joyce Bennisons, the Candice Blakes, the Corey Clarks, the, the fucking Christina Durantes, the Tracey Viancos with Mean Girl. Like, all of this stuff is so fucking sick. I remember Rob Henderson taught me this st- story. May- maybe it was Buss. Um, a-Woman had been kidnapped by an Amazonian tribe while she was on a tour, and she'd been taken into the, the, the local, uh, tribe after she'd been sort of taken from her, from her touring group. And when she was there, um, a little boy had come up and given her a, a little parcel. Given her a parcel that had some food in it, and, uh... No, sorry, one of the women had come up. Uh, yeah, one of the boys had come up, given her a parcel that had some food in it, and, uh, it was, "You, you can eat this." And she smelled it, and it, it sort of smelled bad, so she didn't want to. And then she went and sort of laid it down somewhere and didn't bother eating it. And then a little bit later in the day, one of the kids fell super ill.

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:19:53

        Mm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:19:54

        And when asked, "W- what's happened? Why are you ill?" She said, "Oh, that woman put this thing down near me, and I went over and ate it." And they chased her through the jungle. "You've just tried to poison one of these children." What it turned out had happened was that some of the other women had given the parcel to a child to give to her, knowing that she would either eat it and get sick or put it down, and then they could accuse her of p- And I'm like-

    26. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:20:22

        It's a trap

    27. CWChris Williamson1:20:22

        ... do you understand just how stupid the male equivalent of that would be? Like, if it was a guy that had come in and the guys didn't like him, they would've d- like, man take rock, man-

    28. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:20:36

        That's literally what I was gonna say

    29. CWChris Williamson1:20:37

        ... man throw rock at man.

    30. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:20:39

        Right.
16. 1:21:36 – 1:27:12

    Why is Intrasexual Competition Such a Controversial Topic?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:21:36

       I, there are third r- there are hidden third rails. I got, I got in trouble a little while ago for a conversation I had about birth rate decline. Talking about birth rate decline to me is so overdone.

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:21:48

       Mm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:21:48

       It's almost like a comedian doing a trans joke. It's hacky. So, you know, it's what I was interested in six years ago, and it's still a big-

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:21:54

       Right

    5. CWChris Williamson1:21:54

       ... problem now or whatever.

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:21:56

       Sure.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:21:56

       I'm like, it's, is this not just completely accepted to the point where talking about it is hacky, and it's ki- and I was-

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:22:03

       Right

    9. CWChris Williamson1:22:03

       ... I... This broke out into the real internet. It broke out of the sort of-

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:22:09

        Yeah

    11. CWChris Williamson1:22:09

        ... wisdom verse stuff that I typically do. And I was like, oh, wow. This is not only not hacky, this is unspeakably beyond the Overton window to a huge group of people who, uh, th- they don't have any context about where I'm coming from, about the fact that I do this unnecessarily arduous throat clearing land acknowledgement about, well, we must remember that we're not trying to get women out of the boardroom and back into the bedroom.

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:22:33

        Right.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:22:33

        We have to remember that we don't wanna roll back women's rights and birth control and da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And now that we've said that, allow me to talk about how the only data that we have from the WHO or from census is, is the total fertility f- per woman, that we don't have-

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:22:48

        Right

    15. CWChris Williamson1:22:48

        ... the data around men. So whenever we're talking about this, we're talking about women. I go on Tucker Carlson's podcast, and I was accused of being riddled with feminist lies and infected with blue pilled thinking, and then I went and had another conversation a month later and was accused of being a right-wing misogynist. I'm like, "Hey, guys, if I can say the same shit in two different places and be unspeakably on the wrong side in opposite directions-"

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:23:10

        On both. Right.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:23:10

        Yeah. And that's the intrasexual competition thing. But, uh-

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:23:13

        Right

    19. CWChris Williamson1:23:13

        ... the best argument, and this is another Rob Henderson one, when he talk... uh, when he sort of pushes back against people who say, uh, have skepticism around female intrasexual competition being as powerful as w- we say it is. The opposite of that is that women are non-agentic. Oh, so what you're saying is that women don't have the ability to coerce or cajole or manipulate their way through the world. So they're just sort of passive recipients of whatever other people, and if it's all women, that's men. Men just do stuff, and women are the recip- No, no. Okay, that doesn't seem like a particularly empowering perspective. And also, to any woman, that's obviously not how you go through the world or how you would want your daughters to go through the world. You would want them to be able to take control of their future, and if you deny the fact that they have control, that they can use intrasexual competition and mate guarding and status seeking and all of these things. If you deny that they can use that, what you're basically saying is that, that whichever direction the wind doth blow, they, there they will be blown. That, that, that-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:24:20

        Right

    21. CWChris Williamson1:24:20

        ... uh, it's very disempowering. And I think when you unveil, when you sort of pull the rug off a little bit, and you go, "The... I'm aware that there are lots of people on the internet that say fucking awful..." The, the, the, the couch-

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:24:32

        Totally

    23. CWChris Williamson1:24:32

        ... they couch-

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:24:33

        Right

    25. CWChris Williamson1:24:33

        ... misogyny in science in a desperate attempt to try and make women feel bad. I'm just saying you've pattern, you've pattern matched this one incorrectly. Uh, when you sort of reveal, you do see how there's subtle misogyny coming from the other side of the, like, your side of the fence here by saying women are passive victims or implicitly derogating motherhood. Because you say that it's something that some women aspire to do, and that taking that away from them might be a bad thing. So, okay, so you're saying that women are second cl- mothers are second class citizen? Well, no, obviously I'm not... It's okay. Well, a- again, hidden in some of the presuppositions... are kind of like thinly veiled misogynistic assumptions from your side.

    26. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:25:17

        Right.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:25:17

        No, it's not coming from here. So yeah, I, I, I feel you on the intrasexual competition thing.

    28. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:25:22

        Well, and that's what's been so interesting to me, 'cause I've only been on social media about a year. I, I did not wanna be here, to be honest with you. I love it now. I'm having such a good time. I love it.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:25:32

        Mm.

    30. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:25:32

        Did not wanna join this circus. That being said, uh, I've learned a bunch of things, and one thing that's been really interesting to me is how you could be vilified kind of on both sides, just like what you're saying, for the same thing.
17. 1:27:12 – 1:38:33

    Why Healthy Communication is So Important

    1. CWChris Williamson1:27:12

       Uh, so you, we, we said there about the sort of, um, difficulty, I suppose, in men and women's communication. What have you learned about, uh, healthy and unhealthy communication? How do you, how do you suggest that people go about doing that better within their relationships?

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:27:31

       There, there are absolutely things that you can do, skills that you can develop over time. Being open, being honest. N- knowing, though, how much is oversharing is an additional skill. You know, you don't have to say everything that pops into your head, and in fact, if you do, that probably is not gonna be viewed positively, you know? And so that just takes practice, and it takes feedback. And that, that's part of the trouble is people are very afraid, partly because of what can happen on social media. If I say the wrong thing, I'm canceled. And for, you know, you reach a certain point where that affects your career, but I think for everyday people who, you know, have stopped posting on Instagram or on Facebook or whatever, there's too much risk because what's the benefit?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:28:18

       Mm.

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:28:18

       If you post something and then you get ganged up on by literally three million people, f- for what? The, the opportunity to get 15 likes from the w- couple of friends that happen to see your post? So that trade-off, it, it, it's quite problematic. And so people are disconnected in real life, so they don't get a lot of opportunities for feedback. Is this oversharing? Is this a good idea to say this kind of thing?

    5. CWChris Williamson1:28:41

       Mm.

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:28:42

       And then they don't post online either. So it's like the opposite of an echo chamber, where you don't say anything, and so you don't have the opportunity to learn, was this good communication or not?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:28:54

       That's so good, and I guess you never get to learn whether your assumptions should be corrected because you don't have opinions out there.

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:29:02

       Right. And you just hear, because of your algorithm, that you curate yourself. You just hear the same old stuff. You get that. That's where the echo chamber comes in. And so you never said... You know, you don't go to class as a 16-year-old in high school and say, "You know, I think women are great." And you find out, like, women like to hear that. And so instead, you just have these thoughts that echo around in your head, but you, you curate a, a very peculiar algorithm that's very specific to you, and you hear these guys typically who are feeding you things. And I don't know, are those good or bad? It really depends on what you're liking, what you're commenting on, what you're watching longer. And I'm not anti-media at all, but it does create problems. There are certainly trade-offs, and one of them is that people don't interact as much and have an opportunity for learning and feedback.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:29:56

       That fear of, of speaking up, of if I say something, I say something wrong, I do think that that probably entrenches people's opinions more than if they were actually allowed to spew what is wrong. Because-

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:30:12

        Right

    11. CWChris Williamson1:30:13

        ... there was a, a great study that was done a while ago sort of comparing, um, erroneous beliefs that each side had about the other, left and right, and it was the percentage of right-wing people who think that left-wing people are trans, or the people-

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:30:27

        Right

    13. CWChris Williamson1:30:28

        ... the percentage of left-wing people who think that right-wing people don't want there to be any birth control. And-

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:30:34

        Right

    15. CWChris Williamson1:30:34

        ... there is just so much more. The Venn diagram is actually basically two circles with a couple of bits out on the wings.

    16. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:30:41

        Totally it is.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:30:41

        Most people agreed with most things. Most people, most people on the right wanted some safe gun control. Most people on the left wanted some strong military. And y- you end up with if the Venn diagrams never cross over because people stay in their echo chambers, or if people never speak up, they never get to engage in dialogue in a meaningful way with somebody else. And you're right, I, I... The, the pattern matching, like the speed of fucking pattern matching on the internet of you, who are these men to talk about women's issues?

    18. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:31:14

        Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:31:14

        Like, why-

    20. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:31:15

        How dare you?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:31:15

        ... like men need to, men need to stay in their place. Who are they to speak about women's issues? It's like, well-

    22. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:31:20

        Right

    23. CWChris Williamson1:31:20

        The issue that you have is not about men speaking about women's issues. The issue you have is that men are speaking about women's issues from the perspective that you don't agree with. Because if they were saying the thing that you agreed with, you would be completely happy, and there is a cohort of women out there who are happy that they're saying it because that's their opinion.

    24. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:31:39

        Right.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:31:39

        And also, if you were to say, "Who are these men to talk about women's issues?" But okay, so only if I'm from the group that I'm talking about am I allowed to speak on, on their issues. So that means that gay rights are fucked because I'm not gay, and I'm afraid that the soldiers on the front lines of the Ukraine war are, are not Ukrainian or Russian, so-

    26. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:32:00

        Right

    27. CWChris Williamson1:32:00

        ... th- I, I have nothing to contribute there. Palestine, that's also ruined. Uh, I'm not a dog, so the RSPCA is dr-

    28. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:32:09

        Right

    29. CWChris Williamson1:32:09

        ... I'm not a child, so the NSPCC, that's gone. Uh, I'm not a whale, so the Save the Whales project, that's also fucked. Like, you... There is y- it... Because people are so quick to find an enemy on the internet and say, "You are the guy that's doing this wrong, and I know your true intentions."

    30. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:32:27

        Right.
18. 1:38:33 – 1:39:47

    What’s Next For Ben

    1. CWChris Williamson1:38:33

       Dr Max Butterfield, ladies and gentlemen. Max, you fucking rule, dude.

    2. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:38:37

       Thank you.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:38:37

       I, I, I, uh, what can I do? What, you... Think, have a think. If there's anything that I can do, if there's any intros you need or signal boosts that you need, you've got me for, for, for whatever it is that you want, uh-

    4. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:38:50

       Oh, man

    5. CWChris Williamson1:38:50

       ... within reason.

    6. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:38:51

       I, I... Yeah, no, of course. I, I really appreciate it. I... Right now I'm trying to grow my email list, uh, drmaxbutterfield.com. S- put your email in there. And, uh, I'm... I've got big plans. Some I can't really talk about publicly yet. You kinda know how that goes. I've got some things in the works. So sign up for the email list and find out what the, what that secret is, but-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:39:13

       Heck yeah. Dude.

    8. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:39:14

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:39:14

       Uh, I wanna fly you out to Austin. As soon as I've got this new studio done, I need to get you in. We need to sit down and, and, and talk more. So-

    10. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:39:21

        I would love-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:39:21

        ... once that's ready, I'd love to bring you out. Everyone should follow you on Instagram as well. What's your IG?

    12. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:39:25

        Uh, drmaxbutterfield.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:39:27

        Dude, you're great. I'm looking forward to seeing what you make.

    14. MBDr. Max Butterfield1:39:30

        Awesome. Thank you so much. It was a, it was a blast. This was a great conversation.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:39:34

        Fuck yeah. Congratulations. You made it to the end of an episode. Your brain has not been completely destroyed by the internet just yet. Here's another one that you should watch. Come on. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:39:47