Modern WisdomThe Psychology Of Human Motivation - Ayelet Fishbach
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 22,513 words- 0:00 – 0:27
Intro
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Saying that I don't have enough willpower, well, uh, you know, no one has enough willpower. The problem with self-control is that first, we need to identify that there is a problem. (laughs) Okay? We need to identify a conflict. And the second challenge is doing something about it once you realize that this is a behavior, uh, that you want to change. (wind blows)
- CWChris Williamson
Ayelet Fishback, welcome to the show.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, thanks for having me. Excited to be here today.
- 0:27 – 4:29
New Year’s Resolutions
- AFAyelet Fishbach
- CWChris Williamson
Given the fact that we are midway through March now, how many people do you think have failed at their New Year's resolutions by this point?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Uh, well, uh, we have the data from last year. Um, I would say, uh, uh, about a, a quarter, uh, maybe a little bit more. So it's not true that everybody ditched their resolutions. Uh, that's just not the case. But, uh, uh, many did, and by November, we expect most people to drop their resolutions. So by then, we expect only like 25% to still do it till the end of the year.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm, I'm surprised that 75% of people are still holding on in March. I would have thought there would have been more of a drop-off by then.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Well, I, I don't, I don't know about this year. I know what, uh, like the previous d- data that we looked at. Uh, uh, and let's say they didn't lose hope, okay? They are still doing it, okay? They are still, uh, uh, trying. They're probably not doing as much as they planned, but who doesn't?
- CWChris Williamson
What determines whether someone sticks to a resolution or not?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, intrinsic motivation. Uh, that is, uh, uh, how much it feels good at the moment. It feels right, okay? They enjoy doing it, they're excited doing it. And, uh, and it's a bit surprising because the reason we set a resolution is not, uh, uh, because we enjoy doing it, okay? Like, we, we set a resolution not because it's fun to do. We don't set to eat more ice cream and watch more TV in 2022. Uh, we set a resolution that is something that's important for us. And, uh, for most people in America, that would be health-related goals, so that's about 60% of their resolutions. Um, then the second one is anything related to finance, like getting a job, sticking to my job, saving more money, and, uh, th- then we have a few, uh, others. These are not necessarily the things that people are excited to do because it's fun. And nevertheless, what predicts is how much it feels good at the moment that you pursue that resolution.
- CWChris Williamson
Wouldn't that mean that it's basically impossible to complete a resolution which wasn't fun in the moment?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, yes, that is, uh, unfortunately the, the case. Now, it's, uh, you know, some, some people set really short-term goals. Okay? Like, I, uh, you know, I need to, uh, uh, uh, do some medical checkup. And yeah, you can do that even if it's not fun, okay? You just, uh, go there and you do it and it's over. Uh, but this is not the typical resolution. The typical resolution is to eat, eat healthier food or to exercise more. And, uh, if it's not fun, that's not going to work.
- CWChris Williamson
What have you looked at between, uh, a focus on process versus a focus on outcomes or goals? Because when James Clear brought Atomic Habits out, whatever, three years ago or four years ago, I think everybody thought, "Right, this is it. I'm just gonna focus on the process. I can have growth without goals." You know, you do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems. How true has that been borne out in the psychological literature?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) S- you need a goal, okay? If you, uh, don't have a goal, then you don't set a resolution in the first place. If you don't know that you want to eat healthier food, okay, or exercise more, uh, then you'll never get there. And by the way, we recently found that the extent to which people are extrinsically motivated, the extent to which they are, th- they are motivated by the, uh, the goal and by setting a goal that is more long term, uh, that also predicts whether they will set another goal next year, okay? So these are the people that are goal-driven, that have these long-term destinations. Uh, and it, it's important to have. I would not drop that. It's just that it's not enough, and often the process matters more than we think. But definitely start with a goal.
- 4:29 – 10:12
Intrinsic & Extrinsic Motivation
- AFAyelet Fishbach
- CWChris Williamson
How do you define the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic motivation?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, good question. Uh, intrinsic motivation is doing something as its own end, okay? That it feels right at the moment. The purpose is not necessarily to reach the destination, but to enjoy what I'm doing, uh, right, uh, uh, now. Uh, extrinsic motivation is the prize by the end, okay? Is what I get from completing the goal, from being done with, uh, uh, something. Now, the truth is that for the goals that we care about, they are never 100% intrinsically motivating, right? Uh, the, you know, uh, what, like, w- a walk in the park on a nice day is only intrinsically, uh, uh, motivating, okay? Like, a dinner with a loved one is only intrinsically motivating. But no one sets these goals, okay? We, we would do this even if we didn't plan. Uh, what, uh, uh, people set to do, which is a career or, uh, you know, uh, um, hobbies that require work, okay, like exercising, uh, uh, saving money, uh, and so on, these are goals that are somewhat intrinsically, uh, motivating. And the little that they are, uh, really, uh, matters a lot. Uh, so, you know, to, to give you an example, uh, we found that, uh, when we make doing math for kids more intrinsically motivating, that is they were doing math while they were listening to music and we bought them...... pencils with all kind of colors, it was kind of fun to do. Uh, this is research with Kaitlin Woolley at Cornell, by the way. Uh, what we found is that they were sticking with this longer. Now, did we make math class intrinsically motivating for many kids? Not really. Only slightly more intrinsically motivating that it would have been otherwise.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you only just need a little edge then, a lot of the time?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah. Yeah. A- And you need to update that, right? So we know that people stick to their, uh, workout, uh, uh, if they find something that they like. But what I liked yesterday might be boring today, okay? Or maybe the weather has changed, and what was fun to do outside yesterday is not fun to do today. And so, like, we constantly need to adjust with a focus on, how do I pursue my long-term goals such that they are right for me, that they feel good at, uh, the moment?
- CWChris Williamson
It seems to me that there's a- a tension or a, uh, trade-off, at least a little bit, between somebody in a planning mode, where they're looking at, "What do I want to do longer term? What's the direction that I want to go in?" Perhaps even, "What are the steps that I would need to go through to get there?" And then an executing mode, where you're just kind of following the plan and- and working for the boss that was you a couple of days ago or a couple of weeks ago. Is that- is that something that you've noticed as well?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Uh, yes. And it's interesting, there is a- a lot of work in, uh, psychology on- on these two, uh, phases, okay? Uh, uh, some of the work, uh, uh, this is by Peter Gollwitzer at, uh, NYU, uh, talks about being in a deliberative mindset, where you deliberate your options, where you're kind of objective, you see what's possible for you, versus the implemental mindset. And the implemental mindset is like n- now you are the contractor that you hired to do the work that, uh, uh, the- the deliberator, uh, decided to do. And- and now you are much more, like, focused on doing the thing, uh, you are not really evaluating the alternatives very carefully. Uh, there is work on assessors versus locomotors. Some people are just more assessors in- in their personality, and this is something that Arie Koblanski, uh, at University of Maryland studied. Uh, they like to assess, they like to consider, should they do this, should they do that? Like, what are the pros? What are the cons? They're giving you, like, these complicated tables. Uh, they don't necessarily make a decision. They think about it. And then other people are locomotors, okay? They just move ahead, and, uh, to the extent that they are extreme on locomotion, then often they don't assess enough, okay? They just go through the motion without really thinking, "Is this the best, uh, thing for me?" And so you kind of need the right balance between assessing and moving and locomoting.
- CWChris Williamson
Have you got any idea about the optimal, uh, phase length for going from, uh, assessing to locomoting? Or from, uh, planning to executing? Three months, six months, one week?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) It really depends on the goal, right? Uh (laughs) . Uh, if it's, uh, uh, your, uh, morning exercise, then probably five minutes is plenty of time to decide what you are going to do. And- and it really doesn't matter, just, like, do something, okay? Uh, if it's your, uh, career choice and you're going to make this decision in five minutes, uh, I- I would say, uh, don't, okay? And- and sleep on it, and be, uh, a bit open to, uh, not having closure or not having a decision until you've really thought through, uh, your options. And so, you know, s- sometimes we encourage people to think more before they do. Uh, sometimes we just say, you know, "Do it." Okay? Uh, it doesn't really matter how, just do it.
- 10:12 – 14:33
What We Get Wrong About Motivation
- CWChris Williamson
Overall, you've done a lot of work to do with motivation, both psychologically and then in, uh, experiments, plus all of the other work that you've been looking at. What have you found that people get most wrong when they're thinking about motivation?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Oh. People get a few things wrong. Uh, um, uh, uh, let me mention a couple. Okay? Uh, one is that, uh, uh, people think that they should change, uh, themselves, but it's actually better to change the situation. Okay? It's actually harder to change who we are and change our personalities compared with changing the, uh, the environment in which we operate. Okay? And it is really easy to eat healthier food when there is only healthy food around you, and it's really hard to do it otherwise. It's really easy to work when you're surrounded with colleagues that are, uh, supportive and- and willing to help. And it's almost impossible when you are i- in the wrong place with the wrong people that are not, uh, uh, helping you. And- and so people often have the naive perception that, "If I just want something strongly enough, then it will happen," and then they encourage themselves to just, like, you know, do what you need to do, and- and, like, uh, really try harder. And- and often it's about removing the barriers, designing the environment that works best for your goals. Uh, the second mistake that I will mention is that people believe that their future self is going to be, uh, a much better person than their present self in a way (laughs) . Uh, their future self is going to wake up early in the morning and do everything that they should during the day. And, uh, their future self is not going to be tempted by...... you know, the social media or certain foods and so on. And that, and not showing that empathy to your future self is, is a mistake. It's like planning to drive many hours when you get up in the morning and you're fully awake, and not having sufficient empathy to the person that you are going to be after three hours of driving. We just can't do that anymore. (sighs)
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, um, there's a term in Japanese called "revenge bedtime procrastination." Have you come across this?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
I, I am curious. Tell me.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so it's, it's a word similar to, like, schadenfreude or whatever the, in German, that's just something that we don't have a concept for in English. Uh, and it's called "revenge bedtime procrastination," which is kind of the reverse of not having enough empathy for your future self. It's having too much disdain for the person that you were earlier in the day. So you haven't achieved what you meant to earlier in the day, so you punish yourself by staying up at night in an attempt to try and, like, get stuff done. But then all that you end up doing is making tomorrow morning hell for yourself, and then you kind of continue this cycle. I've certainly noticed with myself as well that you do have this sort of superhuman prediction about the person that you're going to be in future, especially when you're setting goals. You just have this presumption that all of the inefficiencies that you have in your system are going to be pushed out of the way by the sheer volume of goals that you create, where if I make enough crushing goals, then I'm gonna have to squeeze all of the inefficiencies in my 20 minutes on YouTube here and my extra-long walk over there, and I'll make sure that I get to work on time and stuff. And it's just not the way that it works. I have a friend, Chris Sparks, who's a productivity expert, and he has a term where he says, "In order to pick something up, you have to put something down." What he means by that is that it's safer to presume that your current level of output is the level of output that you're going to be at when you try and achieve this goal as well, as opposed to presuming that you're going to be this superhuman, incredibly resilient, much more effective version of you. That might happen, but probably not.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) I, I, I love that. The worst advice that I think I ever got was that if you have a lot to do, just wake up one hour early. Okay? And it's the worst advice because, as you know, if you wake up one hour early, you also go to sleep one hour early. You really don't make more time in the day by doing that. You're just more tired.
- 14:33 – 23:29
Setting the Right Goals
- AFAyelet Fishbach
So it-
- CWChris Williamson
Why is it so hard to choose a goal? Like, when people actually have to try and come up with something that's good, why is it so difficult for them to do that?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
I, I don't know that it's hard. It's, it's hard to set goals right, and to set the, uh, the right goal for you. It needs to be a, a goal, not a chore. Okay? It needs to be something that, uh, you like to do, okay, that you enjoy thinking about the destination and not necessarily that, uh, uh, you know, you think about all the, the hard work that is involved. And, uh, uh, to give you an example, uh, do, or approach, goals work better than do not goals, because do not goals feel like a chore. Okay? And it's really hard to, to do this thing that I set up, uh, uh, not to do. I mean, not to do the thing that I set up not to do.
- CWChris Williamson
What's an example of that?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, uh, so that, uh, you know, uh, not, uh, uh, to, uh, smoke, uh, not to, uh, uh, contact my ex, uh, uh, not to have certain thoughts. Like, the classic study by Dan Wagner was to ask, ask people not to think about white bears. And guess what? Once you ask people not to think about white bears, there is nothing more that they want to do than thinking about white bears. Okay? Uh, it's, it's really like not thinking about your ex or trying to push a tune out of your, your head. It's like the more you try to do it, the more this thing comes back to your mind, uh, because how do you know that you are successful? You check yourself. You check yourself by bringing it back. So all, all these feel like a chore. There is also reactants, okay, when I tell myself that I should not eat something, I really want to eat that just because it's now being identified as the thing that I should not be eating. So, uh, these goals tend to be like chores. You know, e- even, like, concrete goals, like you need to be sufficiently abstract to, to motivate yourself. If you think about your goal is, uh, is saving for a house, this is less motivating than buying a house, or, you know, applying for a job is less motivating than getting a job. Uh, and so people often set their goals such that it's not that motivating. Adding targets is helpful, and often people have very vague goals. So, you know, if I tell myself that I want to exercise three times this week, or I want to finish a certain project by the end of the month, this is better than I want to be successful at work, or I want to work out, uh, more. And people don't always get this. Incentives can, uh, be wrong for your goal, okay? Setting a goal that doesn't fit with your incentives, that, uh, uh, doesn't work very well. And then intrinsic motivation, we, we actually started there, setting a goal that is important but horrible to pursue. Uh, that, uh, is not going to work.
- CWChris Williamson
The difference between, uh, approach and avoidance goals, I want to do something and I shouldn't do something, there are things that we don't want to do anymore, and we do want to make a goal out of not doing them anymore. So what's a better way to reframe? Let's say that somebody wants to stop smoking or spend less time on their phone, how should they frame the goal of spending less time on their phone or of stopping smoking?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, ideally, in, in terms of what you want to do instead, okay? And for the phone, that is actually easier than, uh, uh, for, uh, quitting smoking. Uh, for the phone is like, you know, when, when do you use your phone too much? Okay? Uh, for many people that would be, uh, before bed, uh, or, uh, when I wake up. What can you do instead?Okay? So have your goal to read a book before you fall asleep and not, uh, and not look at my phone before I, uh, fall asleep. Uh, that is much more likely to, uh, uh, to happen. Uh, for, uh, quitting smoking, this is harder for people because it's really hard to find, like, what, what is the thing that, that is the opposite of not smoking? Like, what else can I put in my mouth? Okay, like people often, you know, when they try to stop drinking soda, they replace it with water, okay? They just put something else in front of them so they can consume that thing instead. Uh, and, and then one thing that people can do is, uh, uh, think about the situations in which they, they smoke, and, like, what can you do instead in that situation that is fun, that is, uh, rewarding, that's going to, uh, make it, uh, a pleasant time without, uh, uh, smoking?
- CWChris Williamson
It seems to me that boredom must play a, a little bit of an important role when it comes to what we're talking about here, because if you need to replace doing something you don't want to do with another thing that you do want to do, the fix is always doing something. It's never that you're allowing yourself to have space within the day. I suppose that you could say, "I'm gonna sit on the couch and not look at my phone," but there's going to be a fair bit of friction and temptation in doing that. So yeah, it, it feels like very much a- an active process of trying to do a thing instead of doing the thing you don't wanna do anymore.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, yes. And, uh, uh, and, uh, I like this example. Like, imagine, like, sitting in front of your phone, trying not to use it. Like, ah. That, that doesn't work for anybody, right? Uh, so, uh, either you put something else in your hand that you do want to do or you, you know, you go outside, okay? You, you do something else. You just don't sit there on the sofa so you, you don't have this opportunity to, uh, want to spend too much time on, on your phone. Uh, or, uh, your phone is not there, okay? (laughs) Uh, and, and then again, you know, you, you change the situation, okay? If you want, uh, your child, uh, not to be on the computer, you take away the computer. Or if you want yourself not to be on, on your phone, you take away the phone.
- CWChris Williamson
Are there, um, biological predispositions toward differing levels of motivation?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Probably so. Uh, but it's unclear that, uh, uh, that they are that important. And I say probably so because we see that some people, uh, just have more grit, okay? They're just more motivated, they're just more able to, uh, pull through. Uh, but we also see that, uh, often there is a lot of variability between domains. So you, you might be, uh, an, an amazing, uh, uh, at work, okay? But, uh, and not so good when it gets to, uh, uh, controlling your consumption of junk food, okay? And my, I might be a very health conscious, uh, uh, but, uh, uh, terrible at saving. And so, like we see, like, these differences which suggest to us that to the extent that there is, like, this general factor of, like, more motivated person, it doesn't explain everything. Um, it is, uh, the case that the, the... Self-control, for example, is getting better with age, okay? Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, is that right? You get more self-control as you grow up?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, yeah, until the- until later, okay? Until it goes down again. (laughs) Um, when, uh, when you get better or when, uh, uh, you, you-
- CWChris Williamson
Both.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
... the, um... So beyond, like it- into your 20s, you're still getting better. So like teens, uh, and, and, uh, like people in the 20s are still, uh, uh, improving. And part of it is just, uh, uh, controlling, uh, uh, impulse, um, and, you know, uh, older people are just generally less, uh, uh, tempted. They have better control. And, and then I can't quite r- I can't remember the age for the, the older, uh, people's, uh, uh, studies. But the- if I remember correctly, it was something around 70. But I mean, I, I say this and I- you, you hear my voice goes down because I'm not... I, I... Like if someone says, "No, like, you got the age wrong." I say, "Well, I guess so." Uh, (laughs) I would say that it's also unclear when self-control goes down whether people are less able to inhibit or they just don't care.
- CWChris Williamson
I- that was what I was thinking.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That older, older people just don't give a shit anymore. That might be, that might be it.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Y- yes. I, I, you know, I, I tend to agree. I think that that's a large part of it. They're just like, "Whatever, you know? I, I can say whatever I want. I spent enough years here," so.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah.
- 23:29 – 33:50
Maintaining Determination
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so that's acute motivation and setting goals and stuff. How can people ensure that their drive doesn't slow down after this first honeymoon period?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Um, yeah, so, uh, it depends on the, on the goal again. Uh, for some goals actually, there is an increase, okay? In particular when you think about a all or nothing goal. The more you do, the more motivated you are. So if they take four year college, about half of the people that start college will drop out, and they usually drop out in the first or the second year. So like you- it's harder at the beginning. And, and it makes sense. Like your last year in college is getting you a college degree, your first year is only getting you the- a quarter of a college degree. And so you, you see that people work harder, uh, or stick to their goal more toward the end. Same for also loyalty programs, by the way. Consumers drop them at the beginning. When they're just one purchase away from the reward, they are not going to drop the program.Uh, so for some goals, you see that there is an increase in, uh, motivation, uh, even, you know, a-animals, uh, run faster a-as they get closer to the rewards, whether it's food or, you know, for, for your dog seeing you, they will run faster as they get closer to you. Uh, for, uh, other goals, you see that there was a lot of enthusiasm at the beginning, and then it, uh, it slows down. And if there is end, you'll see again an increase in, in motivation, uh, but you'll, you'll have the middle problem, and the, um, and, uh, this is when, uh, you are no longer excited by the beginning, you're no longer excited by the end. It's just a long stretch of the middle. Uh, we looked at it in one study, this is with Rima Turtillary, uh, in Israel where people were lighting the candles on the menorah and, like, they had to do it over the holiday of Hanukkah for eight consecutive nights. Many people were lighting the menorah on the first night. Eight days later, eight nights later, many people were lighting the menorah again. On the last night, in the middle, ugh, not, uh, uh, so much, yeah. Uh, so people, uh, cut corners in the middle, uh, people do less of, uh, uh, good work. (sighs) What to do? Keep middles short. Okay? A weekly exercise goal is better than a monthly exercise goal. Okay? A monthly saving goals is better than an annual saving, uh, goals. Uh, short goals have short middles.
- CWChris Williamson
So you're looking at, um, creating progress markers along the way that allow you to hit those bit by bit by bit, even if you're then going to repeat it again for the following week or month or whatever.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Exactly. And you nicely identified that when I say like a short goal, well, you know, it's not... If you have a weekly exercise goal, it's not, it's not-
- CWChris Williamson
You don't just do it for one week.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah. (laughs) You want to exercise again next week, but that's another goal. That's the goal that I, I'll have next week.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So you wouldn't say, uh, "I want to exercise 150 times this year." You would say, "I want to exercise three times every week."
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yes. 'Cause if you think about the number of times that you need to exercise this year, huh. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Well, there's, um... I've seen studies around the finishing times for people in marathons-
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and how they all bunch together around these totally ar- essentially totally arbitrary numbers, right? You, like, have loads of people that finish between 3 hours 58 and 4 hours 02, but no one finishes, uh, very few f- people finish at like 4 hours 10 or something. They'll, they'll push for the next particular milestone.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yes. Uh, I, I love this study. This is a study that shows how effective targets are. Uh, once you, uh, uh, you know, you look at the distribution of marathon times, you see that there are so many that are doing it in under four hours compared to just about four hours. And, and you wonder, like, is it easier to run a marathon in 3 hours and 59 minutes than 4 hours and 1 minute? No. Right? It, it's really like the, that the idea that if I can get it under my, like, set goal, which for many marathon runners it's four hours or three and a half hours or four and a half hours, uh, then, uh, uh, I achieved my goal. Okay? In, in a way, anything that is below that, like, specific time is, is a, a, a win. And if I have like one minute after four hours, uh, that is seen as a loss, and we don't like, uh, losses. Uh, but I would say that there is a problem with that, that if we are too, uh, attached to these numbers that we put to motivate ourselves, we, we might end up cutting corners. Okay? We might end up, uh, um, maybe pursuing the goal not in the right way. And let me give you a couple of examples. First is I, I caught my son, who's 10-year-old, waving his hand in the evening, trying to get his FitBit to get to the number of steps that he was hoping to have, and I bet he's not the only person who does that. Right? So you're, you want to meet a goal, but not really in the right way. And the other example comes from, uh, Wells Fargo, who a few years ago had what they called the GR8 initiative, and that was a program designed to sell every customer eight financial products. So the great was GR8. Um, as you can imagine or as you might remember from seeing it on the media, uh, that, uh, did not, uh, go well. Uh, uh, the only way to get customers to have eight financial incentive is by selling them, uh, sorry, eight financial tools, is selling them tools that they didn't need, uh, or, uh, often were even unaware of. Okay? So as, as, as a customer, you, you were just paying for financial tools that you didn't know you, you owned.
- CWChris Williamson
Goodhart's law in that way is so vicious, and I see it in myself as well, right? That you, you posit yourself, uh, a, an outcome that then becomes a measure, and then all that you start trying to do is hacking the version of the measure that you wanted to do. Like, purposefully not drinking much water the night before your weekly check-in on the scales because you know that that's going to me- And you're like, "Well, no, no, my... I know that I said I wanted to lose weight every week, but I didn't mean I just wanted to have less water in my body. What I actually meant was that I wanted to lose body weight as opposed to just-"
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
"... fluids." So yeah, you, uh, we're, we're so sneaky and tricky in that way. And another thing is that...... when we have dashboards and analytics, which are increasingly being given to us, right, in the modern world, you can very quickly create an outcome that becomes a measure. And you can start to optimize for the thing that you think is what you actually want. The example I always use is with mailing lists. So somebody could say, um, "I'm giving $100 to everybody that signs up for my mailing list," and they get a million people sign up for the mailing list, but then they don't give away the million dollars. So, they may have achieved their goal of getting a million people onto their mailing list, but that wasn't actually the goal. The goal was, I want a million people to want to sign up to my mailing list, who feel like they're connected to me, who genuinely want to receive my messages with goodwill, and don't hate me, and aren't sending me loads and loads of complaints. Like, that's the actual outcome that they wanted, but because we synthesize things down and we're able to look at dashboards, we see things in a lower resolution way, uh, and that causes us to try and shortcut our own rules.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, absolutely, okay? And these are all the ways in which our ad targets can backfire, can lead us to pursue the, the wrong goal. If there was a shortcut, we should suspect that we are going to take the shortcut, okay? So instead of eating less food, uh, you might drink less water (laughs) to, uh, to get to the, uh, desired, uh, weight on, on the scale. Uh, a- and, and so we really need to be, uh, thoughtful in setting these targets, and realize that the only purpose to set it in the first place is to get people, or ourselves, to, to pursue the, uh, the goal. A- another problem that you didn't mention with targets is that we, we tend to feel so bad when we miss out, okay? And so if you ... Now, many people have calorie targets, uh, uh, and if they just miss it by a little bit, then you have the what the hell effect, which is like, well, today is ruined, okay? Or the week is ruined. Now, this is completely, like, in your mind, okay? That you, you really, like, the, the food that you are going to eat now has the same impact on you than, you know, the food that you ate before you, you missed your target, uh, but y- you kind of gave up on yourself because you, you didn't quite meet your very optimistic, uh, target.
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a way that people can reframe that catastrophic mindset?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(sighs) Uh, there should never be a what the hell effect, (laughs) okay? Uh, it is never a reason to, uh, to lose it just because you lost it by a little bit, okay? It's, there should never be a, a reason to, uh, just, you know, yell at your, your friend or partner, uh, because you were already yelling, okay? Or, (laughs) you know, uh, give up on yourself in, in any other way. And, uh, in, in my research, I, uh, talk about, uh, what your actions signal to yourself. Is it signal about your commitment or a signal about your progress, okay? And in, in this, like, what the hell situation, uh, people take their, their failure in, in this case, the fact that they couldn't do something as a signal that they, that they aren't committed, that they are just, they, they can't do it, okay? It's like, whatever, okay? I, I'm just, like, uh, not doing it. Uh, if instead you take it as a signal of low progress or lack of progress, uh, then what you need to do is just try harder and, and make more progress.
- 33:50 – 40:59
Dealing with Feedback
- AFAyelet Fishbach
- CWChris Williamson
What role does feedback have in this?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(sighs) Feedback is, uh, is critical for pursuing our goals, okay? Like, w- we need to know where we stand, okay? We, we need to, uh, be able to look with ourselves or measure it somehow, or have our friends and mentors and bosses and colleagues, uh, tell us how we are doing. Uh, so feedback is critical. The thing is that it is much easier to learn from positive feedback than from negative feedback. And, uh, uh, we miss out on a lot of great information that is often in, uh, negative, uh, feedback.
- CWChris Williamson
How can we become better at taking negative feedback then?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, we need to realize why it's hard. (laughs) Okay? It, it's hard emotionally. That's actually pretty intuitive. It's also hard cognitively, okay? It is easy to ignore negative feedback because often what negative feedback tells us is what not to do, and now we need to do the mental switch into, okay-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, it creates an avoidance goal for us, which we then need to flip into an approach goal.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Exactly. Right? Like, that-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. So instead of you saying, um, one of your bosses comes up to you about a meeting that you've been in and says, "When you get nervous in a meeting, you look down at your hands, and it doesn't look very good to the group of people that you're trying to present to," you then need to do the work of, "When I get nervous, I need to look up at the board or I need to fix my eyes onto somebody," as opposed to just taking it in that this is the thing that I do, and then obsessing over the fact that you look down at your hands when you get nervous.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) I, I love this example. (laughs) I, I'll tell you why, because I, I got the feedback before that, uh, uh, I don't look into the camera in, uh, uh, you know, Zoom or, or Skype, uh, uh, calls. And the first thing when you hear this feedback is like, uh, "Wh- why, why do you say that? Do you know how hard it is to look at the camera? I look at the person, the person is below the camera." And, and, and really what you need to do is, like, the mental switch where, you know, instead of looking at the person, look at the camera, okay? (laughs) Uh, a- and so instead of looking at your hands, uh, uh, you know, think about what you need to do, look at some- something else. And this is not easy for, for people. By the way, animals cannot do this at all, okay? When you, uh, uh, yell at your dog, the dog has no idea what is the correct behavior, just that what they did was not something that you appreciated. Uh, so (laughs) people are a little bit better.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah, that's in- that's interesting. So the dogs don't really have very good inference. They, they can do...... avoidant, or they can do approach, but they probably can't turn an avoidant into an approach.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Exactly. Exactly. When you yell at your dog that they should not do whatever they did on your carpet, they don't realize that the correct behavior is to go outside and do it on the grass. Okay. The, uh, you will have to give positive reinforcement for that behavior, because the, the punishment didn't do anything. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That's really interesting. So is there a, is there a case to be made around, um, parents raising children or, or also training animals, that you need to see, if you want to try and have motivation to do things that you want them to do, you need to almost look at, uh, your feedback in two different pathways: one focusing on approach and one focusing on avoidant?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yes, and it is, uh, much easier to learn from positive feedback. Now this is not to say that we cannot or should not learn from negative feedback. We should, 'cause they, they, it, it happens. Okay? They, we take the, the wrong way, and we can infer the right way by the fact that we took the wrong way. Uh, and, and so, not learning from that would be absolutely a mistake. You know, even more than that, sometimes, there are many right ways and only one wrong way. Okay? Like, m- maybe all the dishes in this restaurant are amazing, except for one that is bad. And so, really, like, uh, knowing that this is bad is much more useful than knowing that everything else is, is good. Uh, and, and so you, y- you need to be able to learn from negative feedback. But I agree with what you said, and I, now I write about it, that they, if you are trying to teach someone, that using positive feedback, so much easier for them to learn.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the study that you did with the improv class?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Oh, thank you. Uh, so, you know, I, uh, said before, going back to the beginning of our conversation, uh, that we are going to stick to goals that feel good. Okay? That if you feel good when you're doing it, you feel right, and you're going to, to, to stick with it. Uh, but often, what is going to feel good doesn't feel good when you just started. Okay? And, uh, improvisation is one of those things. When you just start improv, you are mainly going to feel embarrassed. And, uh, uh, when we, we partner here with the Second City, uh, Improvisation Club, uh, in Chicago, uh, we studied just regular people, okay, not professionals, that are, uh, going to, uh, uh, take an improv class, and we approach them in the very, like, first few, uh, uh, classes, so they, they are just, uh, uh, beginners. Uh, and at this point, we tell them, "You know, your goal for this exercise is to, uh, feel bad." Okay? "Is to feel uncomfortable," we framed it. (laughs) Uh, and when people had the goal to feel uncomfortable, they were more motivated. They wanted to come back. They actually spent more time on the exercise. They were taking more risk, so the exercise required them to, you know, move in an interesting way, and they were more willing to, like, move their body, and like, make all kind of voices and, and so on, uh, because they were more comfortable to feel uncomfortable. That was their, their goal. Uh, and so embracing the discomfort is often a way to initiate some habit.
- CWChris Williamson
So-
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Later on it will be easier. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that's like preparing yourself for kind of realistically what's going to happen. Um, difficult medical procedure, an examination that you know that's going to be hard or whatever, I guess w- kind of warning yourself about that in advance helps you to be prepared.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
It's, it's, you know, it's warning and I think warning helps with self-control. It's even more than, uh, warning here, because if your goal was to feel uncomfortable, now that you feel comfortable, you know that this is working. Okay? It's, it's like having your goal to sweat while you exercise. Like, you, most people don't like to sweat. Okay? I don't like to sweat. But, you know, i- it's a sign that this is working, okay, that I'm doing it right. Okay? That, and so you don't want a pain-free exercise. Uh, and so, you know, it's more than, uh, uh, like the preparation. It's, uh, uh, the signal in feeling uncomfortable changes.
- CWChris Williamson
That's really good. I really like that. So talk to me about,
- 40:59 – 46:18
Balancing Multiple Goals
- CWChris Williamson
y- people don't just have one goal, right? Might be easier if life was just a singular track, and all that we were focused on was eating the right food or starting the business or a good relationship or whatever. How do people juggle multiple goals?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Yeah, right? It would be really nice to, uh, want, uh, uh, one thing, but, uh, unfortunately, unfortunately, we need to pick our battles, and (laughs) uh, uh, and decide between several goals. And, uh, the, the first thing is to decide whether you are prioritizing or, uh, uh, seeking some compromise or, or balance. If you are prioritizing, then you want to put one goal above others. Okay? Maybe you want to put your, your health goal above, uh, uh, eating whatever you want whenever you want to. Um, often self-control kicks in. Okay? And, and we can talk about that. Uh, when you balance or when you seek a compromise, now you, you think about, let's say, like, work and, and family. How do I fit them, uh, together? Uh, how do I find activities that pursues several goals simultaneously? We call this, in psychology, multifinal means. Okay? They are like, uh, uh, they're, they're feeding, uh, two birds with one scone. Um, maybe I can, uh, bike to work so that I get my commute and exercise at the same time. Okay? Maybe, uh, uh, I can, uh, find, uh, uh, the food that, uh, is, is tasty, that's the most important goal for people when it gets to, to eating, uh, but is also healthy and not too expensive and, uh, it doesn't take too much time, and, and so on. And organizing...... your life, such that you identify these activities that help you achieve multiple goals, uh, is, is often, uh, critical. Uh, then the, I can talk about self-control and, like, prioritizing.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, willpower and self-control, I think, is what a lot of people blame downfalls in motivation on. I certainly know that I do, right, that it's especially, I guess, with avoidance rather than approach goals. But with that, too. "I, I didn't go to the gym today. It must be because I don't have enough willpower." Or, "I ate the food that I said I wasn't going to eat. It's because I don't have enough self-control."
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, yeah, and, and this is, uh, uh, not a great attribution to have, okay, uh, saying that y- that "I don't have enough willpower." Well, uh, uh, you know, no one has enough willpower, okay? Like, so, so let's just not count on, uh, uh, willpower. Uh, the, uh, the problem with self-control is, at first, we need to identify that there is a problem, okay? We need to identify a conflict. We need to identify that this, uh, one morning in which I, uh, don't exercise matters, okay? Or, you know, one donut matters, or the one time I yell at my partner matters. Uh, and then the second challenge is doing something about it once you realize that this is a behavior that you, uh, you want to change. Uh, for the identification part, it helps to use what we call a wide decision frame, that is thinking about several decisions together. Okay? Uh, what, uh, uh, should I do, uh, if I consider losing my partner? Uh, losing... (laughs) Not losing my partner, God forbid. Losing my temper every time I yell at my partner. Uh, and, uh, and, no, uh, uh, what comes to my mind here is actually a, a study about, uh, financial decision-making, uh, with Abby Sussman, my colleague here at, uh, at Un- University of Chicago. And, uh, she asked people how much money they are willing to spend on, on kind of exceptional expenses, like going to a hotel room or buying champagne, like, uh, uh, or buying a gift to a friend. And she either asked them about one time or all the times that they will want to do it this year. And as you can imagine, when people think about all the times that they would like to buy a gift to someone this year, then they, they are more financially responsible, or, you know, all the time that I will stay in a hotel room this year, maybe I should not spend so much money than if I think about it just, uh, once. Um, you know, going back to, uh, my temper, eh, eh, example, all the times that I'm going to be tired and, uh, and, and be tempted to just, uh, lose it. Uh, when it gets to resisting the temptation that has been identified, what we find is that it helps to think about it in advance, to anticipate it, and you get this mental preparation. It's like, um, you know, I use the metaphor of preparing to lift a, a heavy box. If you know that it's going to be heavy, you mentally and physically, even, like, with your body, you approach it with more force. If you know that this is going to be a tense situation at work, or that you're going to, uh, be tempted to stay in bed in the morning and not work out. If, if you anticipate this in advance, we find that you're better able to do something about it, uh, when, when the time comes.
- CWChris Williamson
What's
- 46:18 – 58:12
Motivational YouTube Videos
- CWChris Williamson
happening when you watch a motivational YouTube video on the internet? You know, you watch some compilation of some guys lifting heavy weights, or being really healthy, or living some cool life, or it's Tony Robbins shouting at you through the screen. What, what's going on with regards to motivation there?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Uh, so these are two different examples. Uh, when you watch, uh, athletes, I don't think that anything is happening. (laughs) You, you're just impressed by them. Uh, you don't want to, uh, exercise by yourself. Okay? When you watch, uh, uh, really successful people doing the thing that they do really well, uh, this, uh, is, uh, not doing much. Uh, when you watch someone who wants you to be successful, uh, that's different. Okay? That is a, a role model, and that can be, uh, motivating. Now, you, you need to perceive that person as wanting you to be successful, and if it's a friend or family member, someone that actually knows you and, and really wants you to be successful, that's easy. If it's a person, uh, on YouTube, then you, you know, you need to make some inferences, you know, that this person actually cares about you. Uh, and, uh, uh, you, you need to notice, uh, what this person values. So it's not usually so much about their actions as much as the, the values that these actions, uh, convey, if, if you will.
- CWChris Williamson
So what's-
- AFAyelet Fishbach
So to give you... Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Go ahead.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
To give you an example, like, you know, the, like, the products that we buy online, or let, let's say with YouTube, the, the videos that we watch on YouTube are videos that, uh, uh, other people liked, not necessarily that other people watched. We are much more attentive to the number of likes than the number of people, the, the number of times that the video has been viewed.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, yeah. Uh, right? So we, we follow what other people value more than what other people do. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That is very interesting. Are there any other examples of how that shows out?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, shopping, we, uh, uh, we look at, uh, number of stars and not, uh, bestseller. It's often not even easy to find information on, uh, um, how often people buy this product. We, we really care to see how much the people that bothered rating this product liked it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's what other people liked, not what other people do.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah. Yeah, and with products, I think that is often a mistake. There is often more information in what people do than, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, yeah, because a lot, especially with products, less so with entertainment, but with products, people can buy things for a utilitarian purpose. They don't necessarily, like I don't love my dishwashing brush, right? But I bought it and I would happily buy another one, but I'm probably not gonna be bothered to go and give it five stars on something. So you have a little bit of a selection effect here for what are the products that people are emotionally invested in.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Exactly, right? And so you must find that there are amazing reviews for this very special product. It's not really like meeting what you needed to do.
- CWChris Williamson
What, so you've mentioned there that motivational videos, you kind of need to infer that the person that you're hearing from has some sort of connection with you or is speaking to you in some way. That suggests that there is a big social element to how people can use motivation. What's the social support structure pathway that helps us to be motivated?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
So we are social animals. We do things with other people and in the presence of other peoples. For, you know, some goals, and I would argue our important goals, we do them with others. Okay? We have projects at work with others. We do things with our neighbors, okay? We start a family with someone or some people, okay, that help us. Uh, and so we really want to see that we have the right company, that we can do it together, that we know how to divide the work such that we don't have a huge problem of social loafing. Other goals we do in the presence of others, and so we care for what is in fashion and what other people say is worthy, what is appropriate. We just pay attention to others. And then on top of like, like these two ways in which we walk with others, we also form relationships based on our goals. (laughs) We are attracted to people that help us facilitate our goals, and people are attracted to us because they see us as supportive of their goals. And so our goals, our motivations very much are the basis of our relationships.
- CWChris Williamson
What about actual relationships between people? I had a guy called Adam Lane-Smith on the show a few months ago, and he was saying vasopressin bonding between men and women is problem-solving. So he talked about how women heavily bond through oxytocin, but men bond quite heavily through vasopressin. So you have a problem, the man wants to feel useful. "Honey, can you help me open this jar of beans?" Or whatever, and the guy comes over and he does a thing. And that's bonding because on average, men like to be involved in things and women like to be involved in people. So that kind of made a little bit of sense to me, but presumably goals and admiring your partner's ability to pursue and chase down their goals, both individually and as a pair, that must contribute to a successful relationship.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah, so successful relationship require that you need each other, okay? That you are instrumental for each other's goals, and relationships do not survive when you are no longer instrumental for each other, you are no longer facilitating each other's goals. And, you know, sometimes people are aware of it and they do take joint projects for the sake of being instrumental for each other. Other times, people tend to be more aware of how much my partner needs to support my goals than how much I need to support their goals. We actually, we recently collected data from people asking how much you know your partner and how much your partner knows you. And like in general, this is already documented phenomenon. People feel that they know everybody more than everybody knows them, okay? So there is that symmetry where I feel that I know the people around me, I am more of a mystery to them. But what we recently found is that what predicts relationship satisfaction is how much you feel that you are known, you feel that the other person in your life knows and can support your goals. So the little that you give them credit that they actually know matters a ton.
- CWChris Williamson
Why do you think that is?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Because this is what makes them useful for your motivation, what makes them instrumental for your goals. And this is really the basis of the social bond that we will work together, that we will do something together. And, you know, there is a way to say that sounds a bit selfish, like we're just looking to use other people. And I don't want it to sound like that. We bond to either over looking for help with our goals and willing to offer help with their goals. We work on stuff together, and if we realize that, we can be just more thoughtful in how we make sure that we invest in our relationship, that we have good relationships.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think if someone had a problem with the idea of being helped or using their partner to assist them with their goals, that is under the presumption that the goal of a life is to live the most comfortable, least encumbered sort of existence that you can, which isn't the case, right? You know, you look back on over the last year.... look back on the things that really, really mattered to you. The things that probably mattered weren't super easy. It wasn't that day when you woke up and everything was fine and there was no challenges and you didn't overcome anything. No. Like, you- you- you take value from the times when there is difficulty, that is hard, and you lean into it even harder, and you come out the other side and things go well. So, uh, what... The thing that was in my head there as you're talking about couples and projects is, how many of my friends have decided to renovate their house with their missus, and...
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I hesitate. I'm not sure how good that's been for some of their relationships, because based on, like, the feedback that I've got from them, some of those projects have nearly destroyed the relationship. But I understand that if you were able to manage the project a little bit better, it might work.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Uh, y- yeah. Well, renovations don't have great, uh, uh, reputation, uh, but, uh, um, but you know, it's- it's something that we do as a- as- as a couple. And, uh, and- and- and no, I l- love this example. I would just ask any, uh, couple, uh, what, uh, what do you need to do together, okay? Why- why do you need each other, okay? What's, uh, what's your next goal? And- and maybe you are, uh, saving for your vacation, maybe you're planning your vacation, maybe you're doing house renovation, maybe you are, uh, adopting a pet. Uh, but if there is... Uh, if- if you don't, no longer need that person in- in your life, uh, it is, uh, very, uh, hard to maintain the relationship. And so, uh, th- this is when we- we bring goals to support the relationship other than bring people to support our goals. And both directions work.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's a nice way to frame it. I'm also going to guess that, I mean, having a child, you know, giving birth to a baby, is the ultimate project, you know? And it's one that only you and your partner are usually involved in, it's 24 hours a day, there's a whole bunch of genetic components and motivations that are going on as well. So I imagine that, uh, aside from the fact that you love your child and all the rest of it, having a child is a useful project to work together with your partner on.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, yes, although, uh, uh, having a child, at least for the, you know, the- the first period in the child's life is also an exhausting project. (laughs) And- and- and that can strain the relationship, so we definitely see that, uh, you know, when- when two people that, uh, already were struggling are now trying to maintain a relationship when they are both very, very tired, or at least one of them is very, very tired, uh, that- that's a problem, okay? There is a depletion of, uh, uh, motivation. And so, uh, you know, it's- it's one of those in- instances of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And, uh, a child to the relationship definitely makes the relationship stronger, but first, as long as the- the- the experience doesn't kill the relationship.
- CWChris Williamson
Unless it breaks it first, yeah, precisely.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Precisely.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah. Uh, yeah. So, you know, if the only purpose of the- the new goal is to get the relation- relationship to be stronger, well, you know, adopt a cat then.
- 58:12 – 1:04:08
The ‘Signed Book in a Tote Bag’ Study
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, what was the study that you looked at to do with... Was it a signed book inside of a tote bag that talked about sort of degrees of freedom-
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... away from something?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(laughs) Thank- thanks for mentioning that. Uh, this is a study that, uh, uh, was designed to test how much people are averse to invest in means. Like we want to work toward goals. We want to, uh, work towards something that is- that is important, that is useful. We don't like to invest in means, so we don't like to pay for parking or shipping or gift wrapping. We don't like to study for prerequisite classes. What Franklin Shetty and I, uh, did, uh, was inviting our MBA students to submit bids on, uh, a colleague's, uh, book. And in one condition, that is one group of people, they were submitting their bids, uh, on the book, okay? They saw the book and they were telling us how much they are willing to pay. And another group of MBA students were bidding on a tote bag that contained that same exact book. And- and they knew that, okay? Like they saw that the tote bag and- and the book, and we told them that they are submitting bids on the tote bag, but whoever gets the- the bag is also getting the- the book. So the first group has, uh, an inferior deal, okay? They're just getting the book. The second, they get a book and a bag. Uh, but the- the first group was, on average, willing to pay $11 more than the second book, (laughs) than the second group. Uh, basically, the first group was paying $23 on average for the book, and the, uh, the second, uh, uh, group was willing to pay $12 for a- a tote bag that, uh, contained, uh, the book. Uh, in economic terms, that means that the value of the tote bag was negative, okay? It was, uh, negative $11. (laughs) Uh, that makes no sense. Uh, what's going on here, uh, makes psychological sense. People don't want to pay for a means, they don't want to pay for a bag, but they are willing to pay for- for the book. Uh, and this is a nice illustration of, uh, how- how in life we're often willing to invest so much more if it's the thing itself than if it's a way to- to get there.
- CWChris Williamson
What's a more direct example about how this would be applied to our motivation?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Um, so, you know, I talked before about, uh, uh, setting your goal as, uh, uh, as having a job, not as applying for a job, uh, as- as getting the thing that you want, and not as, uh, uh, as the way to, uh, to get there. Uh, setting your goal in- as a destination is, uh, is something that is exciting and something that you- you want to, uh, achieve and not anything that is on the way there. And, uh, uh, you know, some examples s- that we specifically studied were, uh, you know, studying for something that is really a means-... to something else. People were not interested in the materials very much, uh, (inhales sharply) uh, people, uh, didn't want to buy products that, uh, uh, they will use in order to, uh, get another, uh, product. So, uh, just define your goal in terms of the- the thing itself, not the- the way there.
- CWChris Williamson
That runs counter a little bit, I think, to some of the ways that people have framed process goals over the last couple of years. Again, like the- whatever the aftershock of Atomic Habits has-
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... got a lot of people very focused on the process as opposed to the outcome, um, and yeah, we are fighting against this- this means versus actual goals thing. I wonder how many of the goals I set this year are poorly framed in that way. Well, I know for a fact that I've done avoidance goals instead of approach goals, and, you know, replacing that with, "I want to use my phone less," versus, "I will read for 45 minutes on an evening time." Like, that's- it- it achieves the same outcome, but it's framed in a much more active and proactive way, and also, it makes you forget about the phone.
- AFAyelet Fishbach
(inhales sharply) Yeah, and I- I- I agree. It's- it's a nuanced point here when I... So- so let me try to see if I can explain it in- in a clear way. Like, we- we definitely want to set a goal that is exciting to do, okay, that is not just exciting to achieve, that is exciting to do. And so, uh, if I'm excited about, uh, um, you know, aerobic exercise, uh, and, uh, and not so excited about running, then setting my exercise goal in terms of, uh, do more aerobic and, uh- uh- and- and not more, uh, running, uh, that's- uh, uh, that's the way to go. Uh, but if I set my goal too concretely, okay, too much on- on the level of the, uh- uh, the means, uh, then I- it- I don't have the vision, okay? I don't have the aspiration. I don't know why, uh, I'm doing it. So, you know, if I- if I tell my son, uh, "Your- your goal is to take- do your homework," this is not motivating as, uh, uh, "Your- your goal is to- to learn math," okay? "Your- your goal is to, uh- uh, like, read books and- and understand them, and- and the way we are going to do this is, like, through this, like, homework, uh, assignment." But ultimately, like, if- if your goal in life is to do your homework, that's just not inspiring. That's just not... And I don't think... This is like paying for a tote bag. It's not- it's not the thing, okay? It's just the way there.
- CWChris Williamson
Ayelet Fishback, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to keep up to date with the stuff that
- 1:04:08 – 1:04:46
Where to Find Ayelet
- CWChris Williamson
you do, where should they go?
- AFAyelet Fishbach
Uh, they should, uh, get my book, Get It Done, and they should check my website, ayeletfishback.com, and, uh, they will see all the ways in which they can, uh- uh, connect with me, and I would be excited to connect with them. So, you know, thank you so much for making the introduction.
- CWChris Williamson
My pleasure. What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 1:04:46
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