The Science Of Personality Change - Christian Jarrett

1. 0:00 – 3:26

   Intro

   1. CJChristian Jarrett0:00

      They calculated, like, in terms of happiness, if you can help people achieve a fairly modest reduction in their trait neuroticism, then in terms of happiness, it's equivalent of an increase in your income to over $300,000 a year. If you can achieve these real, genuine shifts in some of your trait scores, it's gonna make a difference to your life.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:19

      (wind blows) The topic that I know you came to talk about is post-ejaculatory adaptations to self-semen displacement, a study that I recently read. And I've found (laughs) in this, "Contrary to the prevailing view, male sexual jealousy accounts for more cases of family violence, e.g. spouse and child abuse, than social class, poverty, alcohol, or drug addiction combined." This was shared by Rob Henderson the other day. High level-

   3. CJChristian Jarrett0:48

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson0:48

      ... what are your, what are your thoughts on post-ejaculatory adaptations to self-semen displacement?

   5. CJChristian Jarrett0:53

      Wowsers. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:58

      (laughs)

   7. CJChristian Jarrett1:00

      (laughs) That's, yeah, that, that's the most, uh, left field question I've had, uh, I would say. Um, oh, yeah, well, you know what men are like. Yeah, jealousy probably accounts for a lot of, um, bad personality change, I would say.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:16

      Absolutely.

   9. CJChristian Jarrett1:16

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:16

       Well, I think as well, like, one of the things that men are pretty hard-wired to avoid is being cooked, right, you know, to raise somebody else's child.

   11. CJChristian Jarrett1:25

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:25

       So I guess that the jealousy must be tuned up a little bit more in that regard for men.

   13. CJChristian Jarrett1:32

       Yeah, I mean, more seriously, I guess there is an e- an evolutionary thread that runs through, you know, a lot of the personality research. And, um, these kind of, you know, you get There are sex, important sex differences in personality and that kind of thing, you know, to do with the average gender differences in some of the traits, and yeah, the kind of thing you're talking about, you know, aggressiveness and competitiveness and, and so on. So it does tie in, uh, loosely i- in some ways.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:01

       We've looped it back around. All right, so what do you mean when you talk about personality?

   15. CJChristian Jarrett2:08

       Well, uh, the way I, uh, approach it is the, the way it, it is covered in personality, uh, in, in psychological science by personality researchers. So that, like the formal a- approach, which is, so personality is our, it's a combination of our habits of thought, uh, feeling, the way we relate to other people. And you can measure these, these tendencies with the big five model of personality. So that, that's kind of, basically, that's what I mean by it in, in this book that I wrote. Um, I took the scientific route. You know, there are other models like the Myers-Briggs, that kind of thing. There are some of these, uh, and even more wa- you know, wackier ones than that, that are less scientific. Uh, but what I mean by it is those ingrained behavioral tendencies. And, um, like a, a favorite way that personality researchers have of describing it is that, uh, you can tell what's your personality 'cause it's how you behave without putting any effort into it. You know, so if, if an extrovert, a strong extrovert walks into a room, uh, they don't think to themselves, "Right, I better make an effort to start chatting to the people in the room," that kind of thing. It's, it's, it's just how they act 'cause it's how, it's how they are.

2. 3:26 – 7:46

   The Problem with Personality Quizzes

   1. CJChristian Jarrett3:26

   2. CWChris Williamson3:26

      How woo or unscientific are most of the other personality measures and other elements? If big five is what personality is, then what's attachment theory or what's Myers-Briggs, or that red, blue, green thing?

   3. CJChristian Jarrett3:47

      (laughs) Uh, yeah, they're, they're pretty woo, because, I mean, um, they don't have that, uh, scientific robustness. So the, the problem with them is, I mean, on the plus side, a lot of them are very popular, engaging, they're fun. So you're getting people thinking about personality, they're thinking about their behavior and how they relate to other people, that kind of thing. So that's on the plus side. The problem with a lot of these other approaches is, uh, you do the test one day and do it again the next day and you get a different score. That, you know, that kind of thing. You know, so they just don't hold up to much scrutiny. That's, that's part of the problem.

   4. CWChris Williamson4:20

      What's the difference between personality and mood then?

   5. CJChristian Jarrett4:24

      So mood is, it's over the short term. So your, you know, mood state is a, is a state, so it's a transient, uh, condition. Personality very much, that's probably something I should have said in the definition, is, is something that very much plays out over the long term. So we all have our moments where we're lazy. No matter how kind of conscientious we are, you know, we all have lazy moments. No matter how, uh, highly we score in agreeableness, you know, we're all gonna have, we're all gonna have our grumpy days and not be short tempered. So everyone, everyone has these little fluctuations. But the key thing with personality is if you, if you keep doing the measures over the long term, you see these tendencies and they're meaningful tendencies, you know. As we really know, you know, intuitively, we know that, we know that our, you know, we've got some friends who are chattier than others, or we've got some friends who are, uh, you know, um, more idle or whatever it might be. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson5:21

      So, uh, personality is like mood smeared across time then?

   7. CJChristian Jarrett5:26

      Exactly. And it, I mean, I do think there, this is something I explore in the book, is these, uh, sort of short term influences interact with our personality. So that, there is this kind of malleability to personality. And of course the little, these little influences day by day can accrue, they can accumulate. And I do think they're important, you know, it's worth paying attention to them, uh, because obviously, as the case I make, is that personality isn't set in stone. So, um, it can slowly shift, you know, like an, like an oil tanker. It can be gradually shifted. But, uh, yeah, these, the momentary changes are-... yeah, things like moods or, or emotional state, that kind of thing.

   8. CWChris Williamson6:11

      How much does personality matter for the outcomes that we get in life?

   9. CJChristian Jarrett6:17

      I would say absolutely hugely. Um, I mean, it, personality traits, these big five traits correlate with all sorts of important outcomes, you know, whether it's longevity, career success, uh, relationship success or, versus difficulties, uh, um, your health, uh, so many different, your physical and mental health. It... And they often, many studies will show that the, that the big five trait scores are as influential as or even more influential than other things that people might think of, such as family background, economic background, uh, amount of education, uh, that, that kind of thing. So they're, they are... it's hugely important. There, there was one study, one of my favorites, that was focused on trait neuroticism, and it, that they, um, they calculated, like, in terms of happiness, if you can help people achieve, um, a fairly, uh, modest, uh, reduction in their trait neuroticism, then in terms of happiness it's equivalent of a, of an increase in your income to over $300,000 a year. So just to get some kind of handle on, if you can achieve these real genuine shifts in some of your trait scores, uh, it's gonna make a difference to your life.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:38

       And probably a little bit easier than trying to earn an extra $300,000 a year.

   11. CJChristian Jarrett7:43

       (laughs) Absolutely, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson7:45

       Okay. So

3. 7:46 – 16:10

   Physiology of Personality

   1. CWChris Williamson7:46

      getting down to a, a biological or a neuroscientific level, what's, what's personality there? Is, is it just, like, myelin sheaths running through the brain? What's going on?

   2. CJChristian Jarrett7:58

      (laughs) Yeah, 'cause it, it can see, seem sometimes a little bit, I suppose, woolly and subjective, you know. But, um, again, these, these big five traits, they correlate with some, uh, significantly with some very meaningful, uh, physiological parameters, suggesting that, um, personality, the one way of putting it is that it gets under the skin. So for example, people higher in neuroticism, which basically means you're, uh, less emotionally stable and less emotionally resilient, uh, they have less folding in their brain, um, less surface area in parts of the brain that are involved in emotion regulation, for example. You find that people who score higher in conscientiousness, you know, how self-disciplined they are, orderly, ambitious, that kind of thing, they have, um... I mean, one study looked at levels of cortisol in the hair, like, 'cause it, you can measure cortisol in the hair. People high, who score higher on a personality test in conscientiousness, they have lower cortisol in their hair. And cortisol is a hormone related to stress and inflammation and that kind of thing. So these kind of more objective measures. Um, the, the gut microbiome is another one that correlates with, um, some of these big five traits, you know, whether you have kind of, uh, healthy, more healthy gut bacteria or less healthy. Blood pressure, heart rate, you know, quite a lot of these things, they correlate with these big five traits, suggesting, you know, there is, like, this objective component to it.

   3. CWChris Williamson9:35

      Mm. So it's not just, uh, learned behaviors. It's not just habits and routines. People have predispositions, um, physiologically, that are gearing them toward being a particular style. But I imagine that there must be multiple different ways to achieve certain personality types. So somebody could be, uh, high neuroticism because of that folding, uh, element, or maybe they have, uh, more cortisol receptors perhaps. Uh, maybe that, that... Like, there's a ton of different ways that could be contributed to that biologically. Then it could be learned behavior. Maybe it was past trauma, maybe it's to do with attachment, maybe it's to do with upbringing, maybe it's to do with whatever. So it's kind of the same way as, uh, I had Robert Plomin on the show and he was talking about the, uh, heritability of weight. And he was saying that he naturally gets quite fat, but mentioned that there's lots of different ways to be fat. You could be fat because your ghrelin response is downregulated, so you don't actually know when you're full and satiated that well. Maybe you have an aversion to exercise. Maybe you require more sleep than most people, so you're more sedentary. Maybe... da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like, the point being that you can reach the same state, uh, in terms of presentation as other people whilst coming to it from a very different place. Is that right to say or wrong?

   4. CJChristian Jarrett10:56

      Yeah, absolutely. So there is a, there's a strong genetic component to our personality traits, you know, which tapping into some of those biological processes, you know, that you, you were mentioning. Uh, but it's about 50, it accounts for about 50% of the vari- variation that you see in personality between people. So you've got... that leaves obviously a large chunk shaping us for, uh, sort of by our experiences, our, our relationships, the environment that we're raised in, and, and all these things, and continues. They, these factors continue to play a role through life. And those phy- you know, sort of physiological parameters that I mentioned that are connected to the traits, I think you have a p- you know, you've got, you've got a two-way feedback loop. So if you're in poor health or if, if you don't pa- if you don't pay attention to, you know, your fit, physical fitness and so on, there are studies sh- suggesting that is gonna have a harmful influence on your personality traits.

   5. CWChris Williamson11:54

      How so?

   6. CJChristian Jarrett11:56

      Things like lack of sleep, um, smoking, these kind of things are correlated with, uh, you know, longitudinal studies show further down the line you see these kind of harmful effects on the trait, o- o- on, on personality traits. Because-

   7. CWChris Williamson12:11

      What, which traits in particular? Neuroticism?

   8. CJChristian Jarrett12:15

      ... uh, neuroticism, uh, particularly, um, conscientiousness, open-mindedness. You know, uh, they will suffer, um, extroversion as well, with, with, uh, smoking. Extroversion will tend to go down because it affects, uh, habits like smoking, uh, affect our ability to en- enjoy reward, you know, other, other forms of reward. So you... These, um, behaviors or, you know, things like our di- our diet, our sleep habits, our fitness, uh, routine, you know, habits, lifestyle, like, I guess you might say, they, uh, affect some of the, you know, our underlying physiology that is relevant to personality traits.

   9. CWChris Williamson12:57

      Yes. And it's this-

   10. CJChristian Jarrett12:59

       The-

   11. CWChris Williamson12:59

       ... constant feedback.

   12. CJChristian Jarrett13:01

       Yeah, e-

   13. CWChris Williamson13:01

       Yeah.

   14. CJChristian Jarrett13:01

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, that's part of what I, you know, the message I try and convey in the book, is I'm sort of trying to hack some of these feedback loops, um, that exist in our, between personality and biologic- biological, uh, processes and, and the kind of lives we lead, you know, kinda trying to hack into the, the, the, these dynamics, these circles.

   15. CWChris Williamson13:25

       There's a, uh, guy from Stanford, Andrew Huberman, uh, I had him on the show a couple of months ago, and he was talking about how he prefers to try and change the mind with the body rather than with the mind. And I think that that kind of gets to this, um, physiological interdependence between the way that you feel, the things that you think, the habits you have, the routines that you follow-

   16. CJChristian Jarrett13:45

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson13:45

       ... the way that you show up, what you do with your body-

   18. CJChristian Jarrett13:48

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson13:48

       ... and all of these things are, are loops. And this is as well, Peterson was on the show at the start of this year, and he was talking about, um, uh, how people accuse Pareto principle distributions of, of, um, wellbeing or wealth or whatever. Uh, they sort of point the finger at capitalism and say, "Look at these evil capitalists doing this." And he says, "Well, almost all of the rivers have almost all of the water. Almost all of the stars have almost all of the mass." Like, th- these kind of Matthew principles just play out. Like, this is just the way that it happens. And you can see it happening here as well. If somebody starts smoking, that means that it's gonna be more difficult for them to do this and that and the other. And it just helps to continue to push them down. And the-

   20. CJChristian Jarrett14:30

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson14:30

       ... reverse is true as well. And you see these trajectories of people just start to split apart, because the person-

   22. CJChristian Jarrett14:36

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson14:36

       ... that has good habits engenders more good habits, which gives them better results, which reinforces the good habits and da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

   24. CJChristian Jarrett14:42

       (laughs) Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson14:42

       All the way up.

   26. CJChristian Jarrett14:43

       Yeah, exactly. It's, it's, a lot of, I think, exploiting the research into personality change is recognizing that setting things in motion in the right direction and stopping them spiraling downwards. Um, yeah, you, you, you might be aware of, you know, these kind of studies. They came out of, um, Dunedin in New Zealand, these very long-term studies where they, they actually looked at kids', uh, temperament, you know, from a very young age. And yeah, chil- children, you know, with lower self-control, which is related to, when we're adults, it's r- related to trait conscientiousness. You know, the kids with lower self-control, they are far more likely to grow up to be the adults, who are gonna, you know, gonna be unemployed, gonna have poor health, and so on and so forth. So that... Uh, I know the, you know, one criticism is that that is pinning the blame on the individual rather than, um, acknowledging circumstances, but it is also empowering because these things aren't set in stone. So if, you know, it, it opens the door to an early intervention, and it opens the door to us taking control of some of these, uh, factors ourselves by ch- deliberately changing ourselves, thinking more consciously and deliberately about, you know, what we do with our lives and where we put oursel- the situations we put ourselves in as well.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:06

       Didn't you look at another study, like the longest

4. 16:10 – 23:59

   Can Personalities Truly Change?

   1. CWChris Williamson16:10

      longitudinal personality study ever done, where people were rated by teachers in school and then were tested again at 70? And that showed that there was a lot of change between the personalities. So what does it mean to talk about personality at all? Like, like doesn't that kind of undo what we just said about the fact that people that don't have so much self-control later in life? Like, if the, if the personality isn't consistent throughout life, then why would anything in early life be predictive of stuff later in life?

   2. CJChristian Jarrett16:40

      Yeah, one, one thing to say about that study, that was a Scottish study, and I think it was the longest ever, was it, it was focused on one sort of tiny part of personality, w- well, it was related to conscientiousness, but it, I mean, it had a number of, um, flaws, that study. So I, I did highlight it because of the dramatic finding that there wasn't a correlation between the, the scores in childhood and the scores in, like you say, they were about 70 something. Um, but I mean, there were a few flaws, though. The, the, the childhood ratings were done by teachers, I think, and, uh, whereas when they were in their 70s, they, like, rated themselves and, and stuff, but... Um, I mean, what, what the experts usually say is the, like, the rank order, uh, so like, y- you know, if you were towards the quieter end in your class, in your group when you're at school, you'll probably... Although you will, will all, um, shift through life, 'cause there are these kind of maturity effects through life, um, you'll probably still be, you know, towards the lower end. Uh, e- even if your whole class has shifted on, like, extroversion.

   3. CWChris Williamson17:50

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CJChristian Jarrett17:50

      You'll probably still be in sort of the same, rough- roughly the same rank. Um, there, there was another recent study, I think it looked over 50 years, um, comparing personality, uh, scores with the same group of people, you know, with a, with a 50-year gap. And, uh, they looked at 10 different traits, you know, rather than just the, sort of the one. And I think they...They found 98% of the, uh, participants showed meaningful change on at least one of the, the 10 traits. Um, so there were ob- so that obviously does, there, there, there were s- other traits, you know, that shows some stability. It's this mixture of, um... and I, I tried to deal with this in the book, like, trying to get, you know, get across- it's not, it's not set in stone, but it's, uh, it's relatively stable, um, but there is some change as well. So it is meaningful. Personality is meaningful while not being totally fixed.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:50

      Yeah, so the best analogy... and there's lots of similarities, I think, between personality and what I learned about behavioral genetics.

   6. CJChristian Jarrett18:56

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:57

      Just because there's that kind of set point, uh, and a-

   8. CJChristian Jarrett19:00

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:00

      ... an amount of, um, existing, uh, direction, and then also the stuff in the change that you can make with regards to environment or personal choice. And, uh, Plomin says, um, "Genetics do not predetermine, but they do predispose."

   10. CJChristian Jarrett19:13

       Yeah. Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:14

       And I feel like that highlights the personality thing. All right, so is it right to say that who we are is our personalities? And if that's the case, what does it mean to change the personality? Does that mean that we're, like, not accepting ourselves?

   12. CJChristian Jarrett19:30

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:30

       Does that mean that we're changing who we are? The, the, the existential gap between, uh, Chris's personality and Chris himself?

   14. CJChristian Jarrett19:39

       Mm. Yeah, so it, it start- it can start to get quite philosophical c- concept, yeah, about, like, w- what makes us, us. And, um, I wanted to... yeah, I mean, I, I delved into this stuff 'cause I wanted to know how much we can really change for the better. You know, I've been covering psychology and neuroscience for so many years, writing about cool new studies and so on, and I... this was something I kind of kept coming back to, like, "Does any of this stuff really work long term?" And I suppose that's personality provided- I thought provided an excellent frame for that 'cause it's kind of getting down, you know, really deep down. It's not just changing habits, it's not just changing your routines, it's really... these are your, as we were just discussing, you know, relatively long lasting, uh, stable traits. Can we change those? Um, so it is, it's a very important part of who we are, it's one way of capturing what makes us, us. I wouldn't say it is everything. Um, uh, other things, you know, that are important part of who we are are things like our, our morals, uh, our values, you know. Um, in some ways I would say our relationship, you know, the, the, the relationships that we hold dear, that, that are meaningful to us, that is a key part of who we are. So we can change our personality, but still love and care about the same people. You know, we can change our personality but still have the same core values, still believe in the same priorities and principles in life. Um, other aspects of ourself, you know, that I, I encountered, you know, uh, researching this stuff was, you know, like, s- all the, the stories, the story we tell about our lives, in, in a way is a part of who we are. And of course it can be told different. Y- you can tell your own story in different ways. And that is that... y- you've probably heard there's a form of therapy, like narrative therapy, and a lot of that is about helping people tell their story differently and the- and thereby actually cha- in a way change themselves or how they f- what they feel like, you know, to themselves. Um, so yeah, I, I... it isn't every- these personality traits aren't everything. They're very, very important part of who we are, but they're not the... not everything.

   15. CWChris Williamson21:49

       I suppose the interesting thing about personality is it's so inex- inextricable from the way that we present for pretty much everything else. So our relationships and the story that we tell ourselves-

   16. CJChristian Jarrett22:00

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson22:01

       ... and the values and virtues and integrity that we hold are all influencing and being influenced by the natural set point that we have, like our predisposition.

   18. CJChristian Jarrett22:11

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson22:11

       What is it that we are tending toward? So I guess it seem- it seems to me the way that I'm kind of framing it is, it's like the foundation or the source code or the, the set point, the beginning that everything is coming off of is our personality.

   20. CJChristian Jarrett22:24

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson22:24

       And then what you want to try and do is be swimming downstream. You want to try and get yourself to a stage where your personality makes having the kind of life that you want to have more easy, as opposed to you being some incredibly unconscientious person that has dreams and goals and aspirations to go and make something better of yourself. And you go, "Well, hang on a second, I have this desire and yet something in me isn't allowing me to manifest that desire." Like that, that sucks. So sh- it's got to be a case that it is again, like this completely interdependent, um, link between the two.

   22. CJChristian Jarrett23:00

       It, it definitely is because, you know, if... you know, like, if any of your listeners, for example, are, you know, frustrated in their careers or something like that, you know, they're finding it really hard to get motivated, obviously one thing they can do is start to try and, uh, enhance their trait conscientiousness. There are various ways of doing that. That's something they can do, that, you know, they can work on themselves from the inside out, try and change that key personality trait. But it's very important to recognize that actually when people find themselves in a job or, uh, find a passion that really, um, uh, y- you know, sets them on fire, really, you know, uh, satisfies them, um, h- it feeds back and increases trait conscientiousness. You know, it's much easier to be conscientious if you're in a job that you enjoy and that you care about (laughs) .

   23. CWChris Williamson23:54

       Yeah.

   24. CJChristian Jarrett23:55

       So you're absolutely right. It's this interdependence again. Yeah.

5. 23:59 – 33:21

   Developing Different Admirable Traits

   1. CJChristian Jarrett23:59

   2. CWChris Williamson23:59

      I was a club promoter for most of my 20s and was pretty obsessed with work and, and trying to gain success and also just grow the business 'cause it was something that I felt like I had a lot of, um...... personal investment in. Like, I, I, m- My sense of self-worth and the self, the, the success of the business were kind of, uh, pretty closely linked. And I remember thinking, I got toward the end of my 20s and I started learning about leverage, which is this concept whereby you can use capital, labor, code, or media in order to magnify your effects out into the world. And I wasn't doing that. I was running club nights, right? There was no leverage there really. It's like, look, if one person that came in, one person came in. It wasn't that I ran the club night once and then could run it like, uh, command C, command V and then it would just run for the rest of time. We always had to be there blah, blah, blah. So it was low levels of leverage. And I was learning about leverage at a time when my, uh, motivation was waning a little bit within the business. And I remember thinking, "Oh, fuck." Like, "I've, I've spent the fuel that I had of that kind of obsessive passion, that super conscientious grind and drive, and I've spent it on something which I really, really value and I love what I achieved with the business, but there wasn't a massive amount of leverage there. So maybe I've missed out on the opportunity to maximize this particular part of, of the drive that was in me." And then, whatever, four or five years hence now, doing the show, and because I get such positive feedback and the dopamine from the show is just insane, I've now rediscovered that same degree of drive and conscientiousness and obsession that has been fed back to me by another new project, but this time it's with leverage. And it's, it w- I, I remember thinking, it was just an interesting insight that I've not spoken about before, that I thought I'd, not wasted, 'cause I didn't waste it all and I adored the work that I did and it was very successful and fulfilled me, but I, I was concerned that I'd kind of spent all of the, the fuel tank that was there. Mm-hmm.

   3. CJChristian Jarrett25:53

      And I saw in front of my own eyes what happens when the environment re-enables and, like, re-kickstarts that capacity for super, super, super high conscientiousness. Yeah, so I think i- in an alternative reality, version of reality, if you hadn't made that big career change, I think what the research would predict is, um, there is a risk you're c- y- like you say, you, you had a lot of motivation, you were very organized and driven, but obviously something was, uh, the reward was diminishing maybe or, or, or whatever as you were describing. If you hadn't made that, I guess, ambitious shift, there is a risk you could have, you might have seen, uh, your conscientiousness, your per- it might have started to adversely affect your personality basically (laughs) .

   4. CWChris Williamson26:45

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CJChristian Jarrett26:45

      Basically is what I'm saying. Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson26:47

      Yeah.

   7. CJChristian Jarrett26:47

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson26:47

      I mean, wha- what does it mean to say adversely affect our personality? Is that, uh, uh, are there preferable personality states that people should want to be in?

   9. CJChristian Jarrett26:57

      Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit, uh, tactless to use that k- (laughs) kinda l- language. But, um, it's hard to dispute some of these links between something like conscient- because higher conscientiousness is associated with so many preferable outcomes in life. So it's a little bit, whilst not wanting to be judgmental of people who are low in the trait, you know, it's, it's h- it would be hard to advocate for lower conscientiousness.

   10. CWChris Williamson27:23

       Lower conscientiousness. (laughs)

   11. CJChristian Jarrett27:23

       Because, um, you know, you're likely to have p- worse health, worse career prospects. There i- you can go too far with conscientiousness and, you know, it can potentially slip into sort of obsessive, unhealthy, perfectionist tendencies. But, um, exactly what you're describing is these, you know, these roads that we travel down, all these situations we find ourselves in, in life, they are all the time, you know, kind of feeding back and shaping us, and yet being aware of these influences. And, um, I think one of the techniques I describe in the book is, it's from, um, the personality psychologist Brian Little, and he ha- he calls it, um, personal project analysis. I think that's what he calls it. And it's all about actually taking the time to sit down, reflect on all the, you know, the various personal projects you have, from the really big ones like running a, you know, a, a, a nightclub, um, to more trivial things like maybe being on a diet or whatever it might be, like going through them all, checking out, you know, like, "Am I making progress on this particular personal project? Is it making me feel happy? What kind of effect is it h- having on me?" Uh, and being a little bit brutal and looking through and seeing, "Should I drop some of these personal projects (laughs) 'cause they're, they're, th- th- they're not making my life any better? So I should drop them, pivot, try something else." And, um, sounds like that's what you did. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson28:49

       Have you, have you considered why having different personality types amongst humans would be adaptive on a tribal, ancestral, civilizational level?

   13. CJChristian Jarrett29:02

       Oh, yeah. There's, there's, there's quite a lot of, you know, research on that kind of thing, uh, because there is, you know, animals have personalities as well, so there's a lot of, um, there's actually quite a lot of personality research with animals. And you can see basically, you know, like we w- we were saying about the set point that we kind of, uh, it's via our genetic inheritance and so on that we begin with our, our personality disposition, if you like, that we start out with, is a little bit like our own niche or our own kind of strategy. So while, um, there are a lot of adv- advantages, for example, to being more extroverted, y- extroverts tend to be bolder, uh, you know, they're more likely to get the, uh, o- on the hunt, you know? They're more likely (laughs) to get the lion's share of, of the hunt, the kill. Um, they're more likely to, uh, you know, find a mate, uh, to reproduce with, that kind of thing. There's, there's also a niche, an adaptive advan- ad- advantage niche for the person who is a little bit, uh, more cautious, who hangs back, who looks out for danger, uh...So, eh, it, for a lot of these things, there's, there's usually, um... You can see some pros and cons depending on where you kind of... where you sit on the continuum with some of these traits. And e- even if for the majority of people it's better to be one way, you can sometimes see, oh well, there's, um, you know, there, there's an advantage over here for a minority of people who might be, uh, y- different, you know, whether, whether it's being a little bit more wary or, or whatever it might be. Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:39

       Especially across, uh, an entire group size of a tribe or something, I'm gonna guess, as well. You know, if you've got... I, I learned this about, uh, psychopaths. I asked about how s- how psychopathy, uh, sticks about. I was like, look, "If you've got a Dunbar number of 100 or 150 or something, why are they not all just killed?" Like, I... And if there's a, a strong genetic component to this, why are they not all just killed? And the guy that I was speaking to said, "Well, kind of, but also if you're a Viking tribe and you want to send a raiding party across to Lindisfarne for the, them to go and fuck up some Geordies in whatever, uh, uh, 10:00 BC or 10- 10:00 AD-"

   15. CJChristian Jarrett31:16

       (laughs) Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson31:16

       "... it makes sense to have some psychopaths. So it's actually adaptive."

   17. CJChristian Jarrett31:18

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:18

       And I guess it's kind of the same here, that if everybody was super conscientious and super extroverted and super whatever, whatever-

   19. CJChristian Jarrett31:24

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:24

       ... what we would consider to be more preferable states, no one's actually going to be saying, "Hang on, do we actually think that this is a good idea? Maybe we should sit back. Maybe we should consider this, that, and the other." Uh, and yet across an entire population, it does make sense. And then also, our desires around other people. You know, I, I, I am more attracted to friends that are a little bit more, um, introverted than a super extrovert. Like if... I, I find it exhausting to be around people that are incredibly extroverted all of the time. I'm much more comfortable around people that are a little bit calmer, a little bit more peaceful. So th- there you go. There immediately-

   21. CJChristian Jarrett32:03

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson32:03

       ... uh, if I'm the demand and they're the supply, like there is a demand-supply problem for me to find someone that's a little bit less extroverted.

   23. CJChristian Jarrett32:11

       Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And y- you could even take a trait like, maybe that isn't, you know, so obvious 'cause it's not so much to do with like fighting and aggression and boldness and... Uh, something like, um, openness to experience that, which is one of the big five. So people who are, are, you know, more open to experience, they are, um, you know, they don't like sticking to convention and rules. They like doing things different, ex- you know, being more, um, yeah, uh-

   24. CWChris Williamson32:38

       Aggressive.

   25. CJChristian Jarrett32:39

       Y- yeah (laughs) yeah, exactly. So yeah. So, uh, yeah, on a political front, you know, uh, conservatives tend to score lower in openness to experience. But as you were saying, like on a kinda tribal level, it's good to have a mixture, 'cause if everybody scored highly in openness to experience, which comes with many advantages, openness to experience, you know, it's related to creativity among other things. Uh, but if everybody was high in openness to experience, you would ha- you know, you wouldn't, you wouldn't have anyone following the rules.

   26. CWChris Williamson33:06

       Yeah, there'd be no order.

   27. CJChristian Jarrett33:08

       You wouldn't have anyone pa- Yeah, there'd be no order. You wouldn't have anyone passing down the tribal conventions and the hier- respecting the hierarchy and that kind of thing. So as, as you say, there's balance on a group level, it ma- makes sense,

6. 33:21 – 39:07

   Extraversion v Introversion

   1. CJChristian Jarrett33:21

      yeah.

   2. CWChris Williamson33:21

      We've used the word extroversion a bunch of times because that's one of the elements within the big five, but that's not the same as being extroverted or introverted. Uh, can we just unpack that and how introversion and extroversion kind of, uh, manifest within personality? 'Cause I think for a lot of people when we talk about personality, one of the things that they might be interested in is how do I become, uh, l- less anxious or more outgoing or more socially confident, stuff like that, especially in 2022.

   3. CJChristian Jarrett33:51

      (laughs) Yeah. Um, so, uh, in, in the big five trait theory, eh, it's, it's extr- it's trait extraversion basically and it's a continuum. So we're all on it somewhere. We all score somewhere on extraversion. The... Talking about introverts and extroverts is kind of not so scientific in a way. It's, uh... 'Cause you know, where, where is the cutoff point? It's a short, it's a shorthand for, uh, in personality science, a kind of shorthand for someone who scores highly on extraversion and an introvert is someone, you know, who scores toward, toward the lower.

   4. CWChris Williamson34:24

      I'm, uh, sorry. I thought... I... Is extraversion not to do with, uh, like, valence to positive experience or something like that?

   5. CJChristian Jarrett34:32

      Y- That's right. Uh, that, that's an e- uh, that's an important difference from how we use the term in kind of colloquially, um, because yeah, colloquially, we tend to think it's just about being chatty and, and that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, importantly in, in scientific terms, ek- extroverts, one key thing about extroverts is that they're very much driven to achieve reward, that they, they're very much drawn to reward. They... And positive emotion. So they seek out, um, positive emotion. It's probably one of the reasons why they are more socially active, 'cause they're looking for that, uh, the reward of that social kick, you know. And, um, they're, they tend to be more optimistic, extroverts. So i- uh, you know, if you're, if you're a high scorer, scorer on extraversion, um, tend to be more optimistic, more active. Extroverts are actually more active. They're more like, um, exploratory in a way, seeking out reward, looking for that reward. Introverts are less responsive to positive rewards. They're less seeking stimulation. It's like their baseline levels of arousal, uh, they're happy with... Uh, they're chill seekers, you know, rather than thrill seekers.

   6. CWChris Williamson35:41

      Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. CJChristian Jarrett35:42

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson35:42

      That's interesting. I like that distinction. Um, what about... What... So we've spoken about the fact that we can change personality. What are the stickiest bits of personality? What are the things that are the most difficult to change?

   9. CJChristian Jarrett35:59

      Well, um, I would say it's a- it's all quite differe- I wouldn't... I don't, I don't think any personality change is really easy because as I was saying earlier, it's, it's more than just...... tweaking, you know, quitting some bad habits and forming some new ones. For, to achieve lasting personality change, I mean, personality is sticky, so you, you've, um, you've really gotta go, you know, a- a- invest for the long haul. You, you've gotta do thing, you've gotta make changes and start behaving differently, and there are various ways to, you know, to, to, to do that, that, uh, I, I, we, we might wanna cover. Um, you gotta, you gotta, uh, practice these techniques and strategies and make these changes in your life at a pretty rigorous and radical level really. Um, in terms of, like, what's, I mean, pro- I'm, I'm guessing, I don't actually know if some traits are harder than others, but I'm gue- I'm guessing neuroticism as in, uh, yeah, like, as I was saying, that emotional instability is probably the one people struggle with the most. And I only say that because when people are asked what part of their personality they would most like to change, that is the most popular change that comes up in surveys. People wish they were not so emotionally unstable. They, they crave, uh, emotional stability and, uh, contentment, I guess. (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson37:29

       Yeah. Well, I mean, uh, it makes sense that in a self-report, the things that people struggle to change the most would be the things that would come up first.

   11. CJChristian Jarrett37:37

       Yeah, yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson37:38

       And I also guess that there's maybe a kind of, like, a self-defeating element to neuroticism, the fact that having a high susceptibility to negative emotion-

   13. CJChristian Jarrett37:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson37:50

       ... would make downstream from that a lot of the changes that you're trying to enact more difficult.

   15. CJChristian Jarrett37:55

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson37:56

       So it's kind of one, one of the, uh, Matthew Principle problems that we mentioned earlier on.

   17. CJChristian Jarrett38:01

       (laughs) Yeah, I mean, speaking from experience, I would say yeah. I, I, person- personally, I would say I find dealing with changing neuroticism the hardest. And something for people to be mindful of if they kind of embark on trying to change some of their traits is watching out for interactions, because I think I, I think I f- I, I found it, like... W- you know, when I was writing the book, I, uh, you, as you can imagine, I tried to live out some of the (laughs) advice, or as you should do, I guess. You know, practice as you preach. And I think things like, uh, conscientiousness, there are so many prac- you know, sort of practical steps you can take, things you can do. Um, extraversion as well. Uh, but I, I actually f- I think you can get some interactions if you're not careful, 'cause if you start getting... If you've got some neurotic tendencies, uh, you know, um, you can start to get stressed out about, you know, some of your things you're trying to work on in other aspects of your personality. So it's b- it's, uh, worth sort of watching out for all the, the, the d- the dynamics between the different aspects of yourself and the different traits.

   18. CWChris Williamson39:06

       Very interesting.

7. 39:07 – 48:17

   How Life Events Impact our Personality

   1. CWChris Williamson39:07

      What about, uh, the roles that we play in life and how they interact with our personality? Like, if, uh, we get a, a new job or we join the army or we become a parent or something like that. You see people, they talk about, "I'm such a different person since X, Y, and Z. I got married. I had a kid. I started this new job."

   2. CJChristian Jarrett39:25

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson39:25

      What, what's going on there?

   4. CJChristian Jarrett39:27

      Yeah. Well, exactly. It's one of the, you know, these big life changes have a hu- yeah, huge influence on personality. So, um, one of the most, I think, robust theories is, uh, social investment theory. This is this idea, you know, that when we take on roles that, uh, are meaningful to us, that we find rewarding, and they're very clearly signposted to us what is required of us, that's a very important part of it, you know, where it's ver- made very clear to you, "This is what is required of you." And you get a feedback loop 'cause you get rewarded when you, uh, fulfill those requirements. Um, then you, you see people increase in trait conscientiousness, and that's called social investment, uh, theory. And, uh, yeah, some of the other things you mentioned, um, yeah, becoming a parent. Some of the findings here are kind of a little bit confusing, 'cause you might think of all the roles in the world, becoming a parent might increase people's conscientiousness, but they, the s- studies I found did not, uh, that that wasn't the result they got. And, uh, the researchers speculated that that is because, you know what I was saying about it b- it being necessary that it's very clear what is required of you, uh, the researchers in this case speculated that becoming a parent isn't linked with becoming more conscientious, partly 'cause it's just such a maelstrom (laughs) of chaos when you become a parent, is that it's actually not that clear what's required of you. It can be pretty overwhelming. So actually, you tend to see, uh, at least in the very short term, you know, you will tend to see increases in, uh, neuroticism, self-esteem might go down surprisingly, and this is short term, and, um, uh, extraversion can go down as well. Again, not that surprising 'cause you, you know, you, it's, it's much harder to socialize and get out and about and that kind of thing. Um, but yeah, no, relationships is an- another one, you know, getting married, y- you tend to see s- you know, people's, again, extraversion goes down, uh, uh, after getting married, um, that kind of thing. And just friendships and, uh, and so on can influence us because, um, I think what, you, you know, just now you were describing about the kind of people you like hanging out with 'cause of how they make you feel, there's this really cool concept which is pretty new, there isn't a lot of research on it, uh, called affective presence. And it, it's this idea that it's almost like another trait to be liked that we... So we each have a certain affective presence, which is how we tend to make other people feel. Um, so if you, yeah, if you spend your time, let's say you got a new job and your colleague who you work with every day is particularly grouchy, bad tempered, and, and boring or whatever it might be, that is, uh, so they got very negative affective presence and it brings that... You know, you imagine you're in that job for months or maybe years-... every day, you're exposed to that influence. It's worth being mindful of these things and how they actua- yeah. It's gonna shape your personality.

   5. CWChris Williamson42:25

      I can see how this would be adaptive again as well, if you get into a relationship or if you have a kid. Being higher in neuroticism, being more attuned to negative emotions makes sense because that'll probably tune you into the negative emotions perhaps of the newborn child or your partner that you just went into a relationship with. Reducing extroversion, uh, is going to mean that you're less outgoing. You're less sort of seeking-

   6. CJChristian Jarrett42:48

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson42:48

      ... uh, which is also going to be protective of you and the family. Uh, I'm gonna guess maybe getting into a relationship might reduce openness to experience a little bit as well. Although conversely, maybe you could say, "Well, now I have somebody comfortable that can back me up which means I can afford to be more open." I don't know. My point being that like I can see an adaptive explanation for a bunch of these different things. Um, you talk about a, a challenge mindset and a threat mindset as well.

   8. CJChristian Jarrett43:11

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson43:12

      What's that and how does that play a role here?

   10. CJChristian Jarrett43:15

       Oh, yeah. Well, I, I think I brought that up in the book in relation to... 'Cause I have this chapter on the dark triad. You know, you... I know you mentioned psychopaths earlier and yeah, I have this-

   11. CWChris Williamson43:24

       Let's get into it, man. I wanna talk about-

   12. CJChristian Jarrett43:25

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson43:25

       You, you want people to, to channel their inner dark triad-

   14. CJChristian Jarrett43:29

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:29

       ... and utilize it. Talk, talk to me about that and then-

   16. CJChristian Jarrett43:32

       Yeah, without-

   17. CWChris Williamson43:32

       ... how does that relate to the challenge mindset?

   18. CJChristian Jarrett43:34

       (laughs) Yeah, without fully going over to the dark side, yeah. S- but still the advantages without, yeah, the negatives, that's what I was trying to, uh, find ways to do that and yet, um... So something that psychopaths, uh, have... Have you had Kevin Dutton on your show?

   19. CWChris Williamson43:51

       I have not. I had... Oh, his name's gonna escape me. Not Keith Campbell. Keith Campbell was the guy that did narcissism.

   20. CJChristian Jarrett43:58

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson43:59

       Uh, Matt Williams, Michael Williams, someone like that. So he... I haven't had Kevin Dutton on. Do you think I should bring him on? Is he cool?

   22. CJChristian Jarrett44:07

       He's very cool, yeah. Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson44:09

       I'll get, I'll get an intro to you, uh, to him-

   24. CJChristian Jarrett44:11

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson44:11

       ... off you once we're finished.

   26. CJChristian Jarrett44:12

       Yeah, he, he wrote The Wisdom of Psychopaths and, uh, yeah, so one of the sub-traits, so there are these kind of three sub-traits in psychopathy and one of them is s- what they call fearless dominance. So you, you don't want the other two, um, the impulsivity and the emotional coldness. You don't want those two. (laughs) But the fearless dominance can be very a- advantageous and it could explain why some people who score highly in psychopathy, uh, find themselves in successful careers like becoming CEOs, surgeons, special forces, that kind of thing, 'cause they, they got the fearless dominance which is in, in a way is like very extreme extroversion, like off the scale extroversion and off the s- off the scale low neuroticism. You know, they don't feel f- uh, I, I think Kevin Dutton says it's like they got ice running through their veins kind of, uh, situation. So yeah, I'm thinking it would be pretty cool to have, um, more fearless dominance. I'd like some of that and, uh, yeah, one suggestion I had in the book is looking into this, um, line of research which I think kinda comes from sports psychology which is the, yeah, as you said, the kind of threat mindset, challenge mindset. So try to get out of the threat mindset when you're faced with a daunting challenge to be more like a psychopath, uh, successful psychopath. Try to get out of the threat mindset 'cause a threat mindset is about fear of failure. It's thinking you don't have the skills to deal with this challenge, um, that kind of thing. It's seeing it, you know, it's, yeah, as I say it's, it's worrying about the failure and the embarrassment that will come, uh, and, and, and, uh, loss of reputation and that kind of thing. Challenge mindset, instead of seeing it as a threat see it as a challenge, see it as something you can learn from. Remind yourself of, uh, the skills that you have that are relevant, the eff- you know, the work you've put in in the past that shows you can do this kind of thing. Focus on what you can control 'cause the, with the, with the threat mindset you're worried about, you know, what if this goes wrong? What if that goes wrong and I can't control this? With the challenge mindset you, you, you focus, you deliberately focus on those things that you can control. Um, and, and see it as a learning process as well. See it as a learning. Don't see it as a, like a, some kind of litmus test. Am I worthy or am I, you know, a successful person or am I not? Don't see it like that. See it as a learning experience. What can I take from this? If it goes badly, well, the t- I will learn from that and it, it won't go so badly next time.

   27. CWChris Williamson46:51

       Dude, I love it. I absolutely love that. That's something that I've relied on an awful lot over the last, um, two years or so as, like, the show's grown pretty quickly and I've had to get myself continuously into rooms with people where I go, "I, there is no reason that I should be here." And just, yeah, trying to reframe things as, you know, it's either, you either win or learn, uh, look at all of the relevant experience that I've got. This is an opportunity. This is not something that I should be concerned about. I can control the controllables. I can't control the uncontrollables so I'll let those go. You know-

   28. CJChristian Jarrett47:20

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson47:20

       ... all of that piled together. So it's nice to see that my bro science solution to not-

   30. CJChristian Jarrett47:24

       (laughs)
8. 48:17 – 1:02:02

   Making a Personality Change

   1. CWChris Williamson48:17

      Um, getting into some of the advice that you've got, obviously we've spoken about personality, we've explained the fact that it is something which is a predisposition that doesn't necessarily predetermine...What, what's the fundamental understanding that people need to have when it comes to actually changing their personality? What are the, the most important principles that people need to keep in mind? "Uh, here is a thing. I heard that Christian guy. He said that I could make some changes to my personality." Wh- what are the principles that people need to keep in mind whilst going through this journey?

   2. CJChristian Jarrett48:48

      I would, I'd probably say the most important thing, and I, I, I guess I've hinted at this already, is, um, if you really genuinely wanna change, uh, you gotta be willing to shake things up. Um, if you, if you carry on doing everything the s- (laughs) the same, if you stay in the same relationship, you stay in the same job, live on the same street, hang out with the same buddies, if you don't make any, uh, if you don't shake things up at all, it's very, very unlikely you're gonna change very much because we are sensitive to these external forces. So I think you gotta ask yourself how far are you willing to go. So if you're not willing to go very far, you need to be realistic about the amount of change you're gonna be able to achieve. So being realistic is a, is another important thing. If you are, if you really, really wanna, you know, change yourself, take your life in a new direction, be radical about what you're willing, uh, the steps you're willing to go to. Um, some other things to bear in mind are you nee- you're gonna need help from other people probably. It's gonna be very h- I would think it's probably gonna be very hard to do as a t- entirely solo project. It's gonna help if the people close to you are on board, uh, uh, uh, as well, um, partly because of these, uh, you know, social dynamics that we were talking about. If your closest partner, let's say, also aspires to similar, uh, personality traits and aspirations as you, um, that's gonna help a lot. No- 'cause they, they will role model some of the, the change you're trying to achieve. They will positively reinforce when you make the changes in the direction that you care about. Uh, so that, that's, that's another very important, uh, factor. I would say it's an ongoing project. It's not something that's done one, you know, a job done one day. And I, I'm, I'm really conscious of that myself. I think, you know, it just, we never know what life's gonna throw a- at us next, do we? So, um, it's a constant unfolding pro- I, I, I think the way I put it in the book is it's like a philosophy to live by, recognizing that we're a kind of work in progress. So don't just think, you know, you're gonna do a few little psychological tricks and, uh, make a few steps and it's all gonna be job done. It's, it's more about recognizing the malleability of your underlying traits, recognizing that they're always prone to change, and you gotta keep working at it. You know, you gotta, to be the, kind of best version of yourself, you gotta keep working at it. Um, maybe just a final thing is, uh, a- a- again, I think it goes back to something we mentioned earlier, is, um, although it, it's, there's a good case for working on some of your, of your personality traits to help you achieve what you want in life, I think the research on balance says it, more often, personality change happens the other way around. It's more often that we're shaped by our, our goals and values in life. So think hard about, you know, who do you wanna be? What kinda person do you wanna be? What do you wanna do with your life? Because once you set on the, you know, uh, that particular course, that's gonna shape you a lot. So it's worth, it really is worth reflecting on that, you know, and, and, and the path you wanna take. And, um, 'cause that is gonna feedback and actually influence your personality and the kinda person you are.

   3. CWChris Williamson52:16

      That's interesting. So think about the sort of person that you want to be over the long term, design a life that would engender that type of person to come out of you.

   4. CJChristian Jarrett52:27

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson52:28

      Be around people that would encourage that person, have pursuits that would encourage that person, have a job, live in a place, be with a partner, so on and so forth. I think, um, (clears throat) one of the things to pick out there that's really important is the long-term perspective. So I'm 34, right? And I still believe that the thing I'm doing now or the habit that I'm working on now or whatever, is just, it's gonna be that for the rest of time. My, my ability (laughs) to do, like my hyperbolic discounting is just completely fucked, right?

   6. CJChristian Jarrett52:56

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson52:57

      I can just say. It's just, I have none of it. And (clears throat) my ability to be able to look at stuff over a long term really, really, really sucks. But the difference, uh, uh, the advantage of doing that is that when you have setbacks, 'cause setbacks are going to come with whatever, whether it be personality change or just starting a gym routine or whatever change it is that you're trying to do in life. There's going to be a period where you reset back to where you are now, and it's going to make you feel like you're back at step zero, but you haven't accounted for all of the good work you've done up until that point. And it is very much a case of like trading a stock, right? It goes up. Like yes, sometimes there's pullbacks, but what is the trend over a long term? And this is something only really probably within the last year that I've been able to look at correctly myself and go, the number of blips for, uh, low mood, for not hitting discipline, for not doing the things that I know make my life good have become increasingly infrequent, and the consistency of me doing the other things. But it felt like I was on this same path for four or five years before I got to the stage where I could actually reflect and see genuine, tangible, consistent change. And I think, well, no surprise, I was feeling demotivated four years ago because I was doing the thing, I wanted the thing, and this is the expectation that you were talking about before. It's like, okay, what is it that you want to get out of life? What are you prepared to sacrifice? If there is too much of a delta between those two things, you're permanently going to feel dissatisfied because you're always going to want 10 and be prepared to sacrifice enough to get four.... and the six is always going to hurt. And on top of that as well, I think to add in, think about the fact that 10 is going to take a lot longer to get to than six or four are going to get to. So okay, maybe you are here, maybe that means there's going to be more blips, there's going to be more resets. And over time, the goal is to be at 10 in 10 years, not to expect that you're going to be at 10 within six months.

   8. CJChristian Jarrett54:57

      Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Be- there are no quick fixes. (laughs) So, um, meaningful change is gonna take a lot of effort. Um, it's also w- the sort of thing you're talking about, I think, is another one of the- the principles I- I- I finish up with in the final chapter, which is about making sure you kind of, um, monitor your progress. Don't just assume the things that you're doing are working and it's all gonna be hunky-dory. Uh, so what you're, those periods of reflection that you've had and the kind of looking back over that longer time span I think is very important 'cause, just because something sounds like it ought to be working, it sounds like a positive step, it might not be. Um, and another thing is that it might work for a while and then stop working, you know. Uh, so what, you know, very important, I think, psychological attribute is, um, psychological flexibility. You know, it- it's being, uh, being adaptive, changing, using different strategies, mental strategies and cognitive strategies and emotional strategies according to the circumstances and acc- according to how you change, you know, as you get older and your circumstances change. Um, it- it's- it's a trait that psychologists are particularly, you know, it's not one of the big five, this psychological flexibility, but it's a very popular area of research. And actually, a very, very recent study, um, you know, was looking at people- people's ability to reach their goals. And it, what one of the, you know, they would, they would, this study was trying to look at, like, which strategies are the most effective, you know. It was like, is there, is there one that's better than others? That kind of thing. They didn't find that one s- strategy, like, kind of willpower strategy was better than another for achieving goals. What they found was most important was having lots of different strategies. (laughs) That was the thing. So you can switch things up, find what works, you know, depending on, uh, the context, uh, and- and so on.

   9. CWChris Williamson56:50

      Talk to me then... Let's get specific. Uh, one of the things that most people are gonna probably want is to be less idle and be more ambitious, basically increase trait conscientiousness. What's a way that someone could do that?

   10. CJChristian Jarrett57:04

       Um, one of my favorite, uh, kind of findings here is that it's not so much about having, uh, iron willpower, you know. When w- when researchers compare people who have high trait conscientiousness with those with low, um, they've kind of done these studies, you know, where they ping them on their smartphones to- to find out what they're doing at different times of day. Uh, were they exerting willpower? Were they resisting temptation? What were they doing? You know, what's the difference between these people who have this amazing conscientiousness and these other people who are less self-disciplined? And the thing is with the people who, um, have high conscientiousness is they- they seem to avoid temptation in the first place. It's not that they're, it's not that they have ironclad willpower. They seem to be quite strategic in the way they live their lives so they don't expose themselves to the temptation-

   11. CWChris Williamson57:55

       Like environment design and the people that you're around and stuff like that?

   12. CJChristian Jarrett57:59

       Yeah, I mean, they don't necessarily do it consciously. Someone who is high in conscientiousness, they don't necessarily, it's not 'cause they've, yeah, like, read a magazine article on how to, uh, yeah, like, design their kitchen to put the cookies at- up the top or something. But- but maybe we, if it doesn't come naturally to us, maybe we can, uh-

   13. CWChris Williamson58:17

       Reverse engineer that.

   14. CJChristian Jarrett58:19

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's- that's one thing. Um, there are others. I don't know how many. (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson58:25

       Keep going. Keep going, man. People wanna-

   16. CJChristian Jarrett58:27

       Yeah, um-

   17. CWChris Williamson58:27

       People wanna be more ambitious.

   18. CJChristian Jarrett58:29

       Yeah. Um, I think there's another interesting line of research, again, to do with willpower, and which I, I mean, willpower I think is very relevant to conscientiousness 'cause conscientiousness is, you know, is about being more orderly and self-disciplined. Um, so there's a, there are these findings to do with willpower that actually people who see willpower as, um, kind of re- uh, like, the more that you expend it, it's kind of, uh, self-perpetuating, like a dynamo on a bike kind of, uh, scenario. Like the- the more hard work you do, the more energized you become. People who see, think about willpower and think about effort in th- those kind of terms, uh, they seem to have more wil- they- (laughs) they have more willpower. They get less drained by, uh, exerting self-control. People who think of willpower as, you know, you've got a little bit in your, in your tank, and, you know, I've been working hard today, uh, at, um-

   19. CWChris Williamson59:27

       Ego depletion is setting in.

   20. CJChristian Jarrett59:29

       Yeah, exactly. I've been on the spreadsheets all day, so I'm, oh, I'm- I'm not gonna have any re- self-control left, so I better go down the pub and, um, it's almo- it's self-perpetuating. So it's worth thinking about your mi- you know, mindsets, I- I suppose. Um-

   21. CWChris Williamson59:45

       Dude, have you considered... I- it's I- I learned about that maybe, mm, three years ago, something like that, that basically your view on willpower determines your experience of willpower, that-

   22. CJChristian Jarrett59:56

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson59:56

       ... willpower depletion and the Roy Baumeister marshmallowy stuff, uh-

   24. CJChristian Jarrett1:00:01

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:00:01

       ... is- is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy. What do you believe about willpower, it ends up enacting that. Um, I learned about that a while ago. And I- I wonder how many people in the world or how many man-hours or productivity or happiness has been gotten rid of-

   26. CJChristian Jarrett1:00:17

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

       ... because of that self-fulfilling prophecy. You know what I mean?

   28. CJChristian Jarrett1:00:20

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's a da- definitely a danger of that. One- one of the studies that's come out recently that challenged that, I don't know if you came across this one, where they- they tried to find ev- evidence of ego depletion cross-culturally, and it didn't, they came out with no results in India.... and then they're trying to, they tried to find out, "Well, why, why can't we get the ego to

   29. CWChris Williamson1:00:38

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CJChristian Jarrett1:00:39

       ... depletion in, in India?" And then they reflected on the fact that in their cul- in Indian culture, from a very young age, uh, children are taught about how energizing it is to be, to do self-disciplined activities. And they're encouraged, you know, much more than in the West, uh, you know, to do sort of concentration-based activities like reading and, and things like this. I think they, they even have this kind of... I can't remember what it's called, but this kind of meditative-type exercise they do, to do a staring at a candle or something from a young age. So there are these various kind of, uh, cultural-
9. 1:02:02 – 1:06:10

   Becoming Emotionally Stable

   1. CWChris Williamson1:02:02

      um, (clicks tongue) emotional stability, then? What about if someone wants to become more emotionally stable, like everyone?

   2. CJChristian Jarrett1:02:10

      (laughs) Yeah. Um, oh, there are so many different... T- so it, it, when it comes to this one, we can borrow from techniques that are used in psychotherapy. Um, that's one thing we can do. So, you know, CBT, uh, that kind of thing. So you can, you can use cognitive reappraisal. So, um, I suppose this overlaps a little bit with something we mentioned earlier, but you know, when you're f- when you're feeling your heart racing before a scary, uh, activity, before a date or something, and you, you know, you're sweating and your heart's racing, uh, inter- learn to interpret it as, uh, excitement rather than fear, for example. That's just one. I mean, there, there's something called affective labeling, which is when we're feeling these negative emotions like anger, jealousy, most of us are not naturally inclined to be very good at, at identifying these emotions, like putting a lab- specifying it. So take a moment, pause. When you're feeling these negative emotions, pause, think to yourself, actually say it out loud, "Well, what is it? What is that emotion that I'm feeling?" It's called, this is called affective labeling. And researchers have found that this, uh, dampens down the negative emotions. And they, they think it's because by taking that moment to pause and identify it and think ab- think about the, you know, at a granular level, "What is the emotion I'm feeling?" It, it draws our attention to the precursor, you know, "What led me to feel this way?" We're more likely to act upon it in a constructive way. Um-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:03:41

      It creates distance as well, right? You know, you're distancing yourself. It-

   4. CJChristian Jarrett1:03:44

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:03:44

      My friend Cory Allen, meditation teacher, calls it the mindfulness gap. Isn't it fascinating that, um, CBT has come up with, uh, what was, what was that one? Something labeling?

   6. CJChristian Jarrett1:03:54

      Affective labeling.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:03:55

      Affective labeling.

   8. CJChristian Jarrett1:03:56

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:03:56

      But if you, if you were doing vipassana meditation, it would be noting, right?

   10. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:00

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:04:01

       You know, and it's different perspectives-

   12. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:03

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:04:04

       ... on different sort of terminology, but on the same sort of element.

   14. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:07

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:04:08

       Okay. So we have the ability for people to, um, reframe s- stuff as-

   16. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:13

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:13

       ... "I'm not nervous, I'm excited."

   18. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:15

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:15

       My friend Bridget says that before she goes on stage. She's a comedian who started late-

   20. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:18

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:18

       ... and she has-

   22. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:19

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:04:19

       ... a little mantra, "I'm not nervous, I'm excited. I'm not nervous, I'm excited."

   24. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:22

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:04:22

       Uh, the, um, labeling.

   26. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:25

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson1:04:25

       Uh, what else? Give us a, a final one when it comes to, uh-

   28. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:29

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:04:29

       ... psychological stability, mood and stuff.

   30. CJChristian Jarrett1:04:31

       Okay. Well, a final one and a little bit different, and maybe, maybe slightly less obvious is, um... And I don't know if you... You know these kind of c- uh, brain training, like, tasks. So there's one, there's one called the n-back task. So if any of you listeners google "n-back task," there are loads of, uh-
10. 1:06:10 – 1:12:47

    Improving Confidence

    1. CJChristian Jarrett1:06:10

    2. CWChris Williamson1:06:10

       Um, I think that becoming more confident and more extroverted is probably something else that a big chunk of people would like. Have you got any advice or any techniques that you like (clears throat) to improve that?

    3. CJChristian Jarrett1:06:20

       (clears throat) Um, yeah, there's what... So extroverts tend to be more, um, optimistic. You know, when they, th-

    4. CWChris Williamson1:06:29

       Live longer as well, right?

    5. CJChristian Jarrett1:06:31

       ... want, uh, they have better health. I think there's some confusing research around...Yeah. Yeah, generally I think they have better health so they tend to live longer for that reason, but they are also more prone to kind of, um, (laughs) -

    6. CWChris Williamson1:06:41

       Risk-taking behavior like jumping off a building or something.

    7. CJChristian Jarrett1:06:44

       Yeah, exactly. So the-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:06:45

       Ah.

    9. CJChristian Jarrett1:06:45

       Yeah, you get that. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson1:06:46

        Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    11. CJChristian Jarrett1:06:49

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um, anyway, they tend to be more optimistic, so the, uh, y- that's one reason they're more willing to throw themselves into these, uh, challenging social situations and other things. There's a, there's a whole, there, there's a range of interventions for increasing optimism and one of them is called the best self, uh, best self-exercise or something like that. Um, it, it, it, all it really involves is spending some time sitting down, and, and you can repeat this, you know, each day, uh, to get into the habit of it, and imagine, picturing yourself kind of five years or so hence. Everything's gone, uh, as you hoped. All your (laughs) , all your dreams have come true. Uh, this kind of thing. And it's, so it's, it's spending some, I suppose, you know, you can see it as like a little meditation exercise, spending some time imagining... Oh, best possible self. That's what it's called, best possible self. Again, you, if you Google it, I think it comes up. Um, so yeah, pre- studies have shown that regularly practicing this little exercise helps increase, um, optimism and that's gonna feed into your extroversion. I mean, I would say with trait extroversion, more than any of the other of the big five traits, it's, uh, it's, it's kind of, um, it's the fake it to make it is actually, uh, spot on there really. I think the more you, um, put yourself out there, you know, join a, it's, it sounds kind of common sense in a way. You know, go to some exercise classes or whatever floats your boat. You know, join a debating soci- (laughs) debating club. Whatever it might be, something that's gonna involve interacting with other people. Practice, recalibrate, 'cause if you're, if you're a strong introvert, you know, you're very kind of sensitive to the stimulation, actually put yourself out there and make these behavioral changes in your life if you wanna be more extroverted, and you will recalibrate and you'll learn the skill, you know, the skills of small talk, that kind of thing. You know, be a little bit, uh, strategic about it at first. You know, uh, get up to speed on the latest sports results so you can have a chat about them. Whatever it takes. It's gonna feel forced at the beginning for sure, of course it is, but practice does make perfect and you'll re- you'll recalibrate. There's, there's a brilliant book, um, by Jessica Pan. Something like... Uh, I can't remember the title of it, but she spent a year living... She's a s- self-described strong introvert. She challenged herself to, to, to, um, spend a year living as an out-and-out extrovert. She joined an improvisation club, she did standup comedy. She did a, like, ton of stuff. And that's, you know, if you're a s- if someone, if any of your listeners are serious about really wanting to come out of their shell, I think the more they're willing to take some of those steps, it's gonna feel uncomfortable at first, no question, but the more you do it, the easier it gets.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:09:49

        Max Dickens was on the show recently talking about male mental health and, and friendships, but he rec- before that, he wrote a book about how improv basically changed his life.

    13. CJChristian Jarrett1:09:59

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:09:59

        And he founded a company called Hoopla, which is one of the UK's biggest improv companies. And, um, (clears throat) he was talking about how important it is for people... You go into improv and he basically said it's like a trial by fire of all of the things-

    15. CJChristian Jarrett1:10:12

        (laughs)

    16. CWChris Williamson1:10:12

        ... that you don't want to do. But the point is that failing in an improv class is applauded, so you get positive reinforcement when you mess up, which makes the price of messing up significantly less. And you're also watching everybody else mess up and it's kind of like... And I think that there definitely is, uh, I, I know in my more introverted, uh, times, you create quite a high, um... There's a very high sense of pressure and a felt sense that things matter and if I say something and it doesn't land then it's a big deal. Like, if you say something and it doesn't land, it's really easy to go like, "Well, that was a shit joke, wasn't it?" And like, that's funny. That bit's actually genuinely funny. The fact that your joke-

    17. CJChristian Jarrett1:10:54

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:10:54

        ... was shit is, is actually interesting.

    19. CJChristian Jarrett1:10:56

        (laughs)

    20. CWChris Williamson1:10:56

        And so I think trying to, you know, realize that the stakes are nowhere near as high as you think they are, especially socially... Like, I can't remember whose friend it was, someone's grandmother said something like, um, "We'd care far less about what other people thought of us if we realized how rarely they do."

    21. CJChristian Jarrett1:11:13

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:11:14

        And the fact is that most people are living inside of their own heads. Like, h- when was the last time that you can remember somebody tripping over in the street or dropping a glass in a restaurant or whatever? You can probably not remember it.

    23. CJChristian Jarrett1:11:25

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson1:11:25

        And the reason for that is that, uh, uh, the fact that that exists should give you unbelievable confidence that you can mess up on an almost daily basis and basically no one's gonna remember it.

    25. CJChristian Jarrett1:11:36

        Yeah, I think that's very nice advice, a nice way of putting it. I don't know, there's this funny study, I think it was from the '70s, I don't know if you've come across it. It w- I think they called it the spotlight effect or something, where they, they had a student, var- different students take turns to, in a, go into a group, you know, like a tutorial situation, and then they, they got them to wear an embarrassing T-shirt. Um, I can't remember-

    26. CWChris Williamson1:11:59

        What's an embarrassing T-shirt consist of?

    27. CJChristian Jarrett1:12:00

        I can't remember what it... It might have been Barry Manilow or something like that. I can't remember (laughs) .

    28. CWChris Williamson1:12:04

        Like, like an uncool T-shirt. Right, okay.

    29. CJChristian Jarrett1:12:06

        Very un-... For the time it was a very, it was apparently an uncool T-shirt. I can't remember for sure who, uh, who, who, who it was. And before the person put it on, you know, and went into the tutorial, obviously they asked them, "What do you think? Do you think... How many people, people do you think are gonna notice the T-shirt?" And of course people would say, "Well, I think everyone's gonna notice. It's gonna be excruciating," and so on. And then they, you can imagine, you know, you can guess, the researchers then actually surveyed the other people in the tutorial group, "Did you notice so-and-so wearing that embarrassing T-shirt?" And few of them did. So there's this mismatch between, yeah, we think the spotlight is on us, as you obviously, you know, like you're saying, but it isn't as much as we think it is.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:12:45

        Christian Jarrett, ladies and gentlemen.

11. 1:12:47 – 1:13:46

    Where to Find Christian

    1. CWChris Williamson1:12:47

       If people want to keep up to date with the stuff that you do, the articles that you write, all the rest of it, where should they go?

    2. CJChristian Jarrett1:12:53

       Oh, well, I have my own website, christianjarrett.com. I, the main kind of social thing, media thing I use is Twitter. Um, I'm @psychewriter_ with an underscore between the psych and the writer. Um, my day job is I'm deputy editor of Psyche Magazine, a digital, uh, online global magazine where we have loads of brilliant, cool psychology, and we have, we publish a new guide every week w- written by experts on basically how to live better and that kind of thing, so.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:23

       Unreal. Christian, I appreciate you. Thanks, man.

    4. CJChristian Jarrett1:13:26

       Cheers. Thanks, Chris.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:27

       What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace. (instrumental music)

Episode duration: 1:13:46