Modern WisdomThe Story Behind Binaural Beats - Cory Allen | Modern Wisdom Podcast 254
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 28,140 words- 0:00 – 0:29
Why binaural beats avoid rhythm (teaser concept)
- CACory Allen
So, in binaural beats, there's not rhythmic elements commonly because of that. We want the listener to lose track of time, as it were, to further sink into the actual effect of the thing. So, musically, there's generally just kind of textural things. Some people use nature sounds and stuff. Uh, it, it is interesting how the musical quality works as a sort of obfuscation of the technical element in some ways, so you sort of aren't really focused on that as much. You're listening to the top layer and the bottom layer is doing all the dirty work. (laughs)
- 0:29 – 3:13
Rehab, resilience, and finding unexpected fortitude
- CWChris Williamson
(instrumental music plays) Corey bloody Allen in the building. How are you, friend?
- CACory Allen
(laughs) I'm good, man. How's your Achilles?
- CWChris Williamson
It's slowly-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... reattaching my leg to my foot, which is-
- CACory Allen
Nice.
- CWChris Williamson
... what I wanted. I've been walking around for quite a while in flip-flops in Dubai, w- to which my physiotherapist said, "Cut them up and throw them in the bin immediately." Um-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... but yeah, I'm back. I'm back in the UK, uh, little bit of a tan, and ready to get back on the rehab.
- CACory Allen
That sounds like a coming-of-age novel, Flip-Flops in Dubai. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, it is. I found myself, and it was a proper pair of shoes.
- CACory Allen
(laughs) Nice, man. Well, I'm glad it's healing. I'd just remembered that as, as we started here.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it was a serious, uh, a serious setback. But honestly, man, the ... I found a level of fortitude that kinda came out of me that I didn't even know existed. It was so bizarre. I thought ... I don't know. I thought I knew ... It was like opening a door inside of a house I'd lived in my entire life that-
- CACory Allen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... to a room that I didn't know existed, and, um, very much kind of found a level of resilience that was almost like ... It wa- it was almost endogenous. It almost surfaced when it was needed, um, in a way that kinda makes me question about just how cerebral and just how much I know about myself, um, which is-
- CACory Allen
Yeah. So what were you fighting against?
- CWChris Williamson
It was more the, I presumed when I would reach a setback like that, some serious trauma, that ... I, I've gone through periods of depression and, and sadness and stuff like that before, and I just thought, "Oh, man. My constitution is not going to do well with this kind of a setback." Despite all of the stoicism and fantastic guests I've spoken to on this show and all the rest of it, I just presumed that I would ... I, I didn't think I would have had the sort of makeup that would deal with it fantastically well.
- CACory Allen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And honestly, like, a lot, a lot of it was hard work, and I can be proud of the development in myself that I've done to get myself to that point, but there was something else as well. There was another few gears inside of me that I didn't know I was going to find, and, um ... Yeah. I, I, I didn't have the world-ending inertia that I perhaps feared was going to occur, and very quickly was able to focus on doing what I could do. Um, and y- you hear this all the time, right? You hear about people who go through tragedies and who end up using that as the springboard for something even greater.
- CACory Allen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and I ... It's kinda just, it's a bit like a fable, that, isn't it? You just think, "Ah, well, yeah, that's good for them."
- 3:13 – 4:23
The ‘hero narrative’ trap and turning everything into content
- CACory Allen
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and it's also kind of good and bad, 'cause it, like, that's one of the things that is sort of a problem in, in culture right now, is the i- inability for people to accept themselves just as people. Like, everything has to be this extraordinary, you know, hero's tale, and no one's allowed to just, like, be a person. So, so, like, it makes people feel like if you're injured and you have this Achilles, uh, you know, time that you need to spend kind of just low-key relaxing, there's this weird feel because of sort of internet culture in some way that it's like, "Well, if you aren't using that as a springboard to change your life, then you're a loser," you know? (laughs) And it's like, no, it's also okay just to sit and do nothing and just be a person and be all right for a minute, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. That's a function of seeing the highlight reel of everybody else, right? That almost-
- CACory Allen
Totally, totally.
- CWChris Williamson
... almost any, uh, incident is also a potential for content. (laughs)
- CACory Allen
(laughs) Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So it's like unless you're taking a selfie whilst the operation's going on and recording a podcast-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and then, oh, it's gotta be in the newsletter, um-
- CACory Allen
(clears throat)
- CWChris Williamson
... and every- everyone just feels like a budget Gary V. So, yeah, I-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- 4:23 – 5:20
Setting the agenda: a full breakdown of binaural beats
- CWChris Williamson
... I, I get that very, very much. So today, I wanted to talk about ... We, we've already had you on the show. You were episode like 12, and this is gonna be 200 and 50-something, so everyone that wants to find out about your approaches for meditation, go back and listen to that. It was a fantastic episode. But today, your other, I guess, internet commodity that you-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... that you, uh, travel in, that you, you end up shipping is binaural beats. And it's something that myself and some of the other guys I regularly have on the show, we have played around with, we use. I know Johnny's a huge fan of Brain.fm. He also uses some of your tracks as well to work to and to sleep to and for meditation. But I've never really heard anyone give a breakdown of what binaural beats are, why they exist, what their effects are, how they're made, all that stuff, so I wanted to, I wanted to get yourself in to, uh, kind of break down the fourth wall a little bit about it. So, where do we begin?
- 5:20 – 12:30
Definitions and the physics of ‘beating’ in sound
- CACory Allen
Man, absolutely. Yeah, well, thanks for having me on, and, um, I'm happy to dive into it with you. Um, well, I think that beginning with just kinda defining some terms is useful because, like meditation, dealing with anything that's sort of, uh, effervescent or, you know, it's like, it's not a physical thing, so it's, it's ki- you know, conceptual, like audio is, is a bit harder to grasp for some people. So, just sort of introducing what the, the binaural beats are. So-First off, binaural means basically, you know, stereo. So, uh, monaural is, like, o- one single sound source, so if you think in your headphones, your, or whatever, you've got a left and a right headphone, that's, uh, you know, left and right. So it's two, bi, B-I, uh, and then aural, you know? So it's, it's two sound, you know? And a monaural would be a single mono signal, which is like an old record player or something that has, like, the horn, (laughs) the gramophone player, where it's the horn coming out. That's mono, that's one, (laughs) you know? But also a- all, like, voice recordings are mono, you know? Um, and for a bit of useless more detail, uh, I will say that, uh, m- in most mono s- sounds that you hear, you know, are then, they're split to, to stereo. So it's the same thing coming through both speakers, but it's just, uh, you know, it's still, uh, mono. Anyway, so then the beats, uh, part of binaural beats, so binaural is, you know, two, uh, audio signals, and beats is beating. So in music, uh, there's a, a phenomenon called beating, and that is whenever you have two audio frequencies, which of course, all sound and music are all audio frequencies, whenever you have two audio frequencies that are close together, uh, they vibrate, because sound moves in waves. So if you think about all sound as like, uh, it's physical, you know, so it's, it's moving through air. So it's literally like, uh, you just think of a, a wave going up and down and up and down, and it's literally just moving through air in a physical way. It's breaking through the air as it goes. And, um, the speed of that vibration of the wave, so, uh, you know, something very, uh, a deep sound like bass from, you know, like, uh, your Slammin' House track that we mentioned earlier, um, but more particularly, the bass line that, the deep, you know, bass line you would hear that's kind of hovering in the room during, you know, amongst the kick drum, that is a really, really, uh, slow-moving waves, wave. And that's why whenever you're standing next to a subwoofer, you feel air coming through. It's 'cause there's, like, so much force and it's so slow that it's literally like, as the wave goes up and down, it's like that negative space is actually pushing, like, physically pushing air through your actual- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Shit, is that, that's why it happens.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I never realized that. You can feel that whenever you put your hand in front of a, a little subwoofer you've got next to your TV, right? And-
- CACory Allen
Yeah, totally. Totally.
- CWChris Williamson
... it just does the little sort of pff, those puffs-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... coming out.
- CACory Allen
Yeah. So it's literally like the sound wave is, like, pushing, it's, you know, moving s- the air out like that. Um, so then if you, uh, as you start to move upwards in frequencies, so this bass tone, let's move up to think of, like, something like a high hat or, uh, even, you know, even higher. That's gonna be, uh, really fast. So it's gonna, the sound wave is gonna be moving really, really fast, uh, and it's gonna look like kind of almost, uh, you know, crinkled or something like that 'cause it's moving so fast. And that's the high frequency, right? So, uh, that's like, or even the highest note on a piano or something is, is super fast. So if you really think about it, um, like, spinning something up, whatever it is, doesn't have to be sound or music or anything, if you've, if, if you have, uh, you know, something, you spin it up, it gets faster, the pitch kind of naturally rises, you know, on anything like that. The, it's just the same property, the physical property, that's happening in music and sound. So, um, in, on, back to the piano, you think about the piano, uh, so this beating thing. The notes on, like, a piano, for example, or a guitar, are all very close to each other. Like, the frequencies, the vibrations, they're very close. Uh, a- and so if you play, like, a white and a black key on a piano that are right next to each other, you think about that, you hear that sort of wobbling, that, like, bah-wah-wah-wah, that's the beating. Because their frequencies are, are tuned individually, you know, one key is tuned to that note, this key is tuned to, to this other note, but they're very close together because on a piano, of course, you start from the lowest note to the highest note, goes left to right. And they just kind of with each key, they're icro- incrementally tuned a little, you know, a few, uh, you know, hertz higher and higher and higher, and so you've got this nice, uh, system that you can play on that sounds good. Um, but if you play two notes that are right next to each other that are, you know, minor and, and major, then you're gonna hear that beating, 'cause they're, they're, they're so close to each other that they're actually, those sound waves are kind of interfering with each other. So if you think about that up and down wave thing happening, well, now you've got two notes, so you put two of those right next to each other, and they're fighting for space in air. So you think about that subwoofer pushing the air out, so since all notes are moving through air, you've got these two notes that are kind of fighting for space. They're cycling at a similar fre- uh, speed and frequency, and so they're colliding. And so as they're colliding, that's what creates that, that wobbling sound. So when, uh, again, on the piano, you get two notes, black and white key right next to each other, you hear that wobble, that's literally the two frequencies fighting for space, and that's what creates the, the beating. 'Cause they're fighting in physical space, you know, for, for room. (laughs) And so that's what creates that sound. That's called the beating. So binaural beats is two, you know, basically, o- one headphone in one ear, one in the other, and then beating is the idea of two frequencies, uh, creating that wobbling sound by being very close to, to each other and kind of fighting against each other. So that's just to define terms for binaural beats, the, of just the actual terms. Now, the actual functional process of the tracks themselves, um, this is, uh, a bit more detailed, but I'll try and make it as succinct as possible.So in all- th- the overall intended effect is to be able to listen to these tracks and change the way that you're feeling, change the way that you're thinking and the way that your mind is operating. So you can, with intentionality of which track that you use, kind of coerce your brain into a different zone. So that would be either something relaxation, you know, uh, creativity, extreme heightened perception and focus, uh, sleep, meditation, uh, just general kind of alertness, but still feeling calm. These kind of different states that we go in throughout the day. You know, whenever you sleep, you're obviously,
- 12:30 – 19:06
Brainwaves 101 and the entrainment theory (delta→gamma)
- CACory Allen
uh, very relaxed. (laughs) And whenever you're in the peak point of your day, in the afternoon, you're drinking coffee, you've just worked out, that's when your brain is firing. You're not in the flow state per se, but you're like in the alpha-beta range where you're, you're really keyed up, um, in the ne- you know, uh, at a high performance level. Flow state is, like, the, the highest level of the brain. So throughout the day, we move through all of these different brainwave states, and those are, really quickly, uh, delta, theta, alpha, beta, and gamma. So that's from lowest to highest. Um, now, uh, w- what's interesting is that then these... (laughs) Okay, so in our brains, the way that thoughts and these brainwave states, uh, are defined is basically our brain is a collection of neurons. (laughs) It's a bunch of, uh... An- and you can please stop me at any time if this is, if I'm getting too far into a wormhole there.
- CWChris Williamson
No, please keep going. This is what we wanna know.
- CACory Allen
Okay. Okay, okay. I'm, I'm trying to cut it down as much as possible. So, um-
- CWChris Williamson
In fact, you're just trying to explain the single most complex object in the entire universe to us-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... and how it relates with sounds that go into our ears.
- CACory Allen
Well, one of my favorite things about the brain is it spends its entire existence trying to make itself realize things, which is just really bizarre. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
Um, so anyway, uh, you know, so we, it, our brain is a collection of neurons, and by, you know, our brain operates on electricity. And so the way we have thoughts or the whole subsystems and different n- areas of the brain work at all is that those neurons, they fire e- an electrical signal from one neuron to the next neuron up- upon a little road called a synapsis. And that's basically the synapsises connect our neurons together throughout the brain. And there's, like, a, you know, a billion-ish or whatever, or two billion, a trillion, wh- who knows? They're always raising that number of how many neurons are in the brain. And so whenever we think, there's a series of neurons fire electrical signals through our synapsises to these other neurons and so on and so on in different areas of the brain, kind of, uh, they fire to each other, and it creates this interesting little dance. And those, the, the, the speed and frequencies of those electrical signals moving throughout the brain and the neurons firing are called brainwaves. So that's where we get the term brainwaves. This is literally, like, the same, just as you think of audio waves, it's like these rolling waves of electricity firing through the brain, and those are the brainwaves. So that's the dama- uh, uh, delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma. Those are the brainwaves.
- CWChris Williamson
So is it, would you be able to say that the brainwaves are like, uh, an aggregate of the individual firings moving in a particular pattern that commonly goes together?
- CACory Allen
Yes, exactly, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, we got it. Right.
- CACory Allen
Uh, it's... Right, right, exactly. (laughs) So, um, so the idea with, um, with binaural beats is to be able to try and affect what brainwave state that you're in on demand, and so the concept behind the actual audio tracks is to put one tone, one of those, those tones in one ear at a particular frequency. So in the left headphone, you're gonna have one particular frequency. Then in the right headphone, you're going to have another particular frequency, just a tone that's going. Now, the difference in hertz between those two tones is going to be the same difference of, of hertz that your, th- that the, um, the speed of a particular brainwave state operates at. So, okay, so like, uh, a, for example, for a theta state, whenever the electricity, you know, the neurons are firing, it's moving through the brain, that's generally happening at the speed of four to eight hertz, somewhere in there-ish. Uh, and so whenever we get more excited, we get more, uh, the brain can, gets more amped up, we're processing faster, then that speeds up to, you know, eh- eight to 13 hertz or something like that. And it kinda continues to increase in these, these bands that they've labeled, uh, you know, these different things. So let's just make it really simple. So we think of theta, and let's call it four hertz, right? So our, we're, we're very relaxed. We're almo- this is almost like a meditative type of state that we're in with theta. We're super calm, uh, just kind of, uh, consciousness is very placid and open and everything. And so our brainwaves are firing signals slowly and calmly, and think of four hertz, so it's just this very slow kind of (imitates binaural beats) That's the, the audio waves, the subwoofer in the brain moving up and down. So what we'd want to do to, to replicate that with a binaural beat is to put one frequency in the left ear, let's call it 100 hertz. So that's, that's a tone. That's the, kind of like the crispest part of a kick drum, just for any audio engineers out there, kind of 100 hertz. Um, then in the other ear, the other headphone, we're gonna put 104 hertz.So just making it plain and using the metric system, (laughs) well, with 100 and then 104. So by putting 100 hertz in one ear, 104 hertz in the other ear, you think about what those two tones are doing whenever you listen to them together, right? They're creating the difference, that four hertz, because they're so close, they create that beating or that wobbling type of sound, right? And so in that creating of the four-hertz vibration, uh, the idea behind binaural beats is that then the brain, as it hears each of those tones in each ear, is trying to kind of mathematically make up the difference between those two frequencies as it's hearing those individual audio, uh, s- tones. And in that, it entrains... That's why they call binaural beats br- you know, brainwave-entraining music, is 'cause it's then, the theory is then it entrains the brain into that theta state. So the brainwaves start sort of replicating and sinking into the groove of the frequency that you're hearing. And then ideally, your, your consciousness is then shifted into that particular brainwave state. And so-
- 19:06 – 21:23
Listening example: ‘Opening Eye’ (theta) and why music is layered in
- CWChris Williamson
Can we hear, can we hear something that is that particular theta, that, that-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... bottom-end one?
- CACory Allen
Yeah. We'll dra- Let's, let's play this, uh, this track called, uh, Opening Eye. That's the track that's theta, and we'll just play 30 seconds of that or something now. (gentle music) Okay, and we're back. And, I mean, I feel relaxed. I don't know. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
Um, yeah. So if you, you can hear in that track, you know, and there's, there's other things going on. So we, we can hear the vibrating tones. But of course, um, in these tracks, of cour-... You know, you, whenever you, you find these, you'll see that they're also accompanied by other, like, musical elements to make them musical, to make them, uh, not just this technical sort of thing that's happening. And depending on the artist, you can really create a lot of emphasis. So sort of just the, the beating tones are sort of the bare minimum to get the function going. Also, as a side note, just to further illuminate the conceptual nature of this, uh, uh, isochronic, or, or... like, it's a term for monophonic beating as well. So something that, uh, their particular objects have the propensity to beat on their own, even though they're just w- a single object because of their physical character.
- CWChris Williamson
What, like-
- CACory Allen
So a, a gong. So that's exactly where I'm going. So you think about whenever we're in a Buddhist temple, there's a giant gong there, and before they sit down to meditate, they hit that sucker and it goes (imitates gong) . Well, think about that sound. It's going bow, wow, wow, wow, wow. It's the same thing. It's the exact same thing. So that's the beating, right? Um, so, uh, you can take just that, that raw functional nature of it, and then based upon the, uh, you know, whatever the artist's, uh,
- 21:23 – 26:44
Composing for timelessness: ambient structure, slow fades, and ‘musical sleight of hand’
- CACory Allen
talent or, or purpose is, you can then really scale that up to make it much more nuanced and succinct and impactful. And so you'll add... And, and of course, priority one is listenability. So you have two tones. You can add some... People usually put kind of textural ambient sounds on top of them to kind of give it a further, uh, relaxing sound. And also in ambient music, one of the points there is that you don't want rhythmic moments plotted in time per se, because you want it to be kind of off the grid. You don't want n- the listener to be... Even if we're not doing it consciously, we subconsciously, when we listen to any music, pay attention to the rhythmic nature of things. And if we hear, you know, one rhythmic sound, if we hear a kick drum and then a snare, we're gonna expect to hear on the same beat, you know, uh, in the same rhythm, another kick or snare and so on and so on. We expect that. Like, imagine if you had your favorite hip-hop track on and every, like, seventh kick drum was missing. You'd probably pull a hamstring or something listening to that. 'Cause you-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Maybe that's how I did my Achilles.
- CACory Allen
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Maybe I was listening to something that was five to the floor or something.
- CACory Allen
(laughs) Yeah. Because you l- you're expecting this thing and it doesn't happen, and you're like, "Uh-oh." You know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CACory Allen
So we have this, uh, you know, this... And even in, you know, cinematic music, there's, you know, uh, very slow-paced rhythms. We still expect this resolution to happen musically. So anyway, so in binaural beats, there's, there's not, uh, rhythmic elements commonly because of that. We want the listener to, uh, kind of lose track of time as it were to further sink into the actual effect of the thing. So musically, there's generally just kind of textural things. Some people use nature sounds and stuff. I, I, I use those sometimes. Um, but I, I also tend to use... On some of the tracks I use my own, uh, just kind of some, uh, vocal drones, but also a lot of other kind of electronic sounds and various things. Uh, and, and just to go a little bit into my tracks and, and, uh, if you'd like, I mean, I'm just kind of talking endlessly here, but please tell me any, at any point if there's any, any direction I'm gonna go, but-
- CWChris Williamson
No. No. The only thing I was thinking before was that I imagine you could create a binaural beat without any of the extra elements to it, and it might perhaps have the desired effect, but be so unengaging that your thoughts might sort of drift off elsewhere without the...
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
In Opening Eye, you've kind of got these cymbals and this sort of stuff in the higher registers as well that keep it more interesting, I guess.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah. And, and also just listening to the tones, yeah, it would make someone feel like they're in, like, Space Odyssey 2001, you know, floating ... (laughs) Uh, it's just ... It would be very abstract, and, and, uh, harder for people to relax into it because they're focusing on just this vibrating sound, you know. Uh, it, it is interesting how the musical quality works as a sort of obfuscation of the technical element in some ways, so you sort of ... You know, aren't really focused on that as much. You're listening to the top layer and the bottom layer is doing all the dirty work, (laughs) you know.
- CWChris Williamson
That's funny. You've Trojan, Trojan Horsed a really mindful-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... music set in with something-
- CACory Allen
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
... that sounds nice on top.
- CACory Allen
Yeah. That's right, that's right. Um, and so in, in my tracks, you know, I, I've spent 20 years, you know, as an audio producer and my whole life, you know, also in that same time being a, you know, a student of meditation and philosophy and studying consciousness. Just all the, uh, neurosciences, cognitive sciences. You know, neuroscience, consciousness, psychology, philosophy of mind, and et cetera, et cetera, and music at the same time. And those things are all ... Have always kind of woven into each other. They've been binaural beating my whole life, (laughs) those two things. Um, and, uh, so I ... You know, in my music, it, it's always ... The intentions have always been, uh, something that fascinates me a lot is, uh, listener expectation, the, the different things you can do musically, you know, harmonically with notes, the arrival, the attention and relief and expectation that people hear, and kind of the, the emotions and feelings that arise, uh, through listening to different, you know, orchestrated melodies and, and sounds. Also-
- CWChris Williamson
(clears throat)
- CACory Allen
... the way that you can make sounds arrive and depart, uh, in very ... I call it kind of musical sleight of hand, where it's like I, uh, have sounds that take, you know ... In, in my binaural beats, which are 30 minutes to an hour to two hours long, you know, some sounds will fade in for 10 minutes. It takes that long for it to go (laughs) from silence to its peak volume. And at the same time, other sounds are fading out for 10 minutes, and so they're kind of cross-fading and there's a lot of that happening all at once. And so before you even realize there's a change, you're already somewhere else. And then before you realize where you are, there's yet another change, and it's a real, um, sneaky and particular way to keep people, um, from really paying attention to time, you know. And, and when you're timeless, where are you? You're in the present, right? And so by doing that, it's a way to kind of musically guide people to the present moment.
- CWChris Williamson
There's an awful-
- CACory Allen
So it's ... I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
... lot going on, man.
- 26:44 – 32:10
Origins: esoteric meditation ideas, frequency curiosity, and early experiments
- CACory Allen
Yeah. There's a whole lot. Yeah, and I could, you know, of course, nerd out on, on, on it, uh, very deeply. But, uh, also I got really interested in binaural beats whenever ... Like, in the, like, early 2000s, because I was (clears throat) alwa- I've always been poking at my brain to see what happens. I'm just kinda u- using myself as a lab rat, you know, for all sorts of different chemicals (laughs) and experiments and whatever. Um, but I ... Really, what got me interested in 'em was reading some rather esoteric, uh, writings on, you know, Buddhism and kind of fringe, uh, tech- meditation techniques and stuff way back in the r- early 2000s-ish, and, uh, maybe even right before that. Uh, but I remember ... So one of the things I was reading was that these ... Some monks would sleep on the right side of ... On their right side if they wanted to have, like, a creative day the next day, and sleep on their left side if they wanted to have a more sort of systematic day. So the idea was that blood would saturate the right hemisphere of the brain, (laughs) or left hemisphere, and so on. And I don't know how much, you know, efficacy is in that, (laughs) that bit of thing, but I'm sure the ... Psychosomatically, that you're sort of ... It's, uh, a nice placebo effect. Um, but I was reading things like that and I was trying that, and that was interesting. And then I was also ... I've always been fascinated with what particular frequencies, uh, what they can do to the body. So the human body, that is. And so, you know, if you play certain tones ... Like, first off, if anyone doesn't think that tones can affect the body, let me remind you that there are, uh, weaponized audio devices that the military and, and, like, kind of the militarized police use. They're basically (laughs) these giant ... Well, not giant. Not so- ... Not giant. They sort of look like, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CACory Allen
What is that? A dish, like the ... A satellite dish. And, uh, they play a really high-pitched audio frequency that you can't even hear 'cause it's ab- like, above the range of human hearing, which is, like, around 20,000 hertz, and it's ... So it's above that, but it's super loud and above that, and it literally makes you pass out, or ... And it ... Or it can cause extreme discomfort, headaches, disorientation.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- CACory Allen
Because ... Yeah, yeah. You can basically, like, fry someone's nervous system with super high frequencies. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Shit.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, this we-
- CWChris Williamson
Are those legal? Are they Geneva Conventioned-
- CACory Allen
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
... out, or-
- CACory Allen
Yeah, they, they (laughs) ... They aren't in America anyway, (laughs) but, you know. (laughs) It's just kind of Wild West, so who knows?
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's crazy. That's like the, uh, South Park episode where they try and find the brown note.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, exactly. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
Exactly. That would be so much more funny if they used that, if they could do that instead of the, the-
- CWChris Williamson
Just make people poop their pants instead of-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... passing out.
- CACory Allen
Yeah. Totally. I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
Jesus.
- CACory Allen
... 'cause then at least it's hilarious. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
There's dogs in a nearby town when they're playing that thing going absolutely crazy-
- CACory Allen
That's- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... having a party.
- CACory Allen
Man, you know it. Yeah, or wanting to, you know, crawl out of their, their fur.So, um, yeah. So, you know, these, these sounds, you know, sounds, uh, really j- not only because they're just the physical nature of them, um, but also just the way that our, that our body holds resonance as well. So, you know, you, we like a kick drum. Uh, uh, a bass line makes it, like Daft Punk makes anybody want to kind of move a little bit because of the bass is like literally, (sniffs) you know, it's, it's hitting your, uh... There's a lot of research that shows that, like, the bass frequencies and the rhythm of, like, dance tracks, the reason why those rhythms and those tem- those BPMs, those like beats per minute make you want to dance, one of them is because they're like higher than the rate of resting heart rate. So if it's a little bit higher than your heart rate, it makes you want to kind of match that tempo.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CACory Allen
You know, if you listen to something relaxing, you listen to some samba or something like that, it's like 60 beat- beats per minute, it's, you know, whatever, super relaxed. And you're like, "Ah."
- CWChris Williamson
Can you explain why Cardi B's WAP is done at 70 beats per minute then? (laughs)
- 32:10 – 35:50
‘Luminosity’ and ‘Music for Deep Work’: ethical framing and sliding people down gently
- CACory Allen
Yeah, sure. So this one, uh, let's go with, uh, w- this is kinda my personal favorite, uh, is one called Luminosity.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- CACory Allen
And this track is, uh, I had so many people over the years, um, we're kind of going out of order here in, in, just in the biography and the kind of the reason, uh, all these exist. But over the years, I had a lot of people hit me up asking me to make tracks for like psychedelic journeys or for, you know, like extended meditation retreats or something like that, basically how to get into that deep, deep part of the mind and really have some, some scaffolding and guidance there. And so, uh, for just rather sort of, uh, I would call them ethical reasons, I, I didn't call them like music for psychedelics or mu- whatever.
- CWChris Williamson
A trip
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah, because one, I, I think it's a little corny, and also I'd never, you know, just kind of philosophically, I never want to be instructing people to do things or anything at all, much less, you know, uh, trying to, you know, influencing people. So people do what you want, you know? But, uh, anyway, so it's called Music for Deep Work is the collection. And, you know, and also it doesn't, uh, it, you know, I think w- we can do deep work in a lot of ways, you know, with or without chemicals, and it's important to highlight that as well. (music) So, uh, this is one of those tracks and it's Luminosity. Okay. So, um, yeah, you can hear, that track has more pronounced kind of musical qualities to it that are still sparse and stretched out. Um, but it, it is going in that, uh, that theta range, you know, to keep, to get in that deep kind of, uh, creativity, very, very calm, relaxed, uh, type of zone. And I'd... Some of the tracks, this one, uh, being one of those, I get a little tricky with them because I will take it from, uh, one brainwave state and slide down slowly over the course of the track sometimes, because people are already kind of keyed up as humans anyway. They're already kind of dialed up to... and like tense and weird and fidgety and just stressed and, you know, we all are over- overly stimulated and oversaturated. So kind of starting someone in place and then slowly have them sort of like sinking down into the sand, like as it goes on. Um, which I don't know if I've ever mentioned that publicly that I do that sometimes before.
- CWChris Williamson
Cheeky, cheeky, cheeky
- CACory Allen
Um, yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... tori. But it's kind of like frog in boiling water type...
- CACory Allen
Yes. Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
... argument, right?
- CACory Allen
Except for it's a hot tub, not a boiling pot. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Hot h- hot tub to cool, cool bath. Yeah, exactly.
- CACory Allen
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so anyway, so sounds affect the body. And I've bec- b- been really fascinated with that, you know, over my life. And there's a lot of research out there, some weirdo fringe, you know, stuff, some actually academic.... over what particular tones can affect the body in, in what ways. And there's like ... I mean, I have a huge archive of research o- from over, as I said earlier, you know, the time that I was in, uh, in my early 20s, er, late teens, early 20s, I got
- 35:50 – 46:51
Making the product: Aubrey’s catalyst, listener feedback, and tuning to Cory’s own mind
- CACory Allen
interested in this in the 2000, around the year 2000. And I just started, like, researching and reading and collecting these different things, and I would, I would make these audio tracks with different frequenzi- frequencies to kind of see how they made me and other people feel, and it just kind of ... My interest in that, you know, evolved from there. And so th- I did make some binaural beat tracks back then, uh, and then I guess probably five or six years ago, what was funny is that, uh, my friend Aubrey hit me up and was like, "Hey, I've been ... I wanna try binaural beats. You know, I've heard that they're really awesome. Um, but do you think ... Like, have you ever made any?" And I was like, "Yeah, you know, like, I don't know, 15 years ago." And, uh, he's like, "W- would you be down to make some?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure, sure." So I, I made some, and I was just, like, just making them to make them, and then I let him listen to them, and he was just like, "Dude, what the fuck is this? This is crazy." (laughs) You know, he's just ... Like, this is like a (laughs) blo- Like, what's happening here? And so i- in the course of me making them, uh, you know, the, the last, you know, the 15 years of compositional experience and music production experience all culminated in meditation, you know, just familiarity with consciousness, and, uh, that ultimately also the awareness of the texture of my own mind in any given moment. You know, I, I think becoming acutely aware of that became very valuable in making these tracks, and it's why they have kind of the, or one of the reasons why they have kind of the magical quality that they do, uh, is because through, you know, 20 years of meditation, I've gotten to where I'm very aware of, like, how my consciousness is shifting in the moment, where it's at. Like, m- as I said, you know, the texture of mind. And I also am aware of when that's being changed and influenced, and so in cre- in the creation of the tracks, I put a lot of detail, a lot of interesting little, you know, uh, tricky things in there, like I, I mentioned to you. And I'm kind of tuning them, all musically, you know, rhythmically, the actual frequencies themselves, until I feel that flow state shift in my own consciousness, and it's not even necessarily like a ... It's not like a mixing issue or a, you know, a spatial issue or a, a, particularly a harmonic issue. It's more of just listening and, and getting, like, the kind of the palette set, and then adding and, and moving everything until ... In whatever way necessary until I feel that shift within myself. You know, and if I feel that flow kind of o- like hyperpresence portal open and dilate, I'm like, "I, I got it. There, there it is." And so that's sort of why all of these tracks have that quality to them, is 'cause I'm literally, like, tuning them to my own mind until I feel them, like, um, turn the key, you know? And when they turn the key, I'm like, "There it is." Now it's just a matter of finishing it off.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it a different way to create a two-hour-long binaural beat track that you're aiming to resonate with your mind in a particular way? Like, if you were sat in a mixing studio, I imagine you must need to get yourself in quite different places if you're mastering down a hip hop track or something.
- CACory Allen
(laughs) No, I mean, what's funny about that is that over s- I don't know. I've, I've gotten to where, over the years, I'm very ... I'm kind of like a surgeon with music. I, I go- It's not that I'm not clinical. It's not that I'm clinical about it in the sense that I don't have any feeling or care, but I'm very removed from, like, being influenced by whatever I'm listening to generally. Uh, I try and ... Uh, it's, it's because I sort of, like, want to remain objective in the process, and not get, like, swept up in ... I- it's strange. Like, it's one of the confusing things about, like, Buddhism as well, is they'll talk about, uh, cultivating a dispassion for e- for everything (laughs) , you know, even for pleasure. And people are like, "Why would I want to not want to feel pleasure, you know? It doesn't make any sense." But so kind of articulating that further, it's like, it's like, oh, well, you want to, you can enjoy the pleasure, but you don't want to, to crave and desire and to want the pleasure, or else it has control over you, and it becomes a, a point of suffering, because whenever that thing fleets, as th- all things do, then you have a void and you seek, you know, this pleasure again. You have the passion for the pleasure. You go look for it, and you begin to suffer, and then that kind of daisy chains on with all of the elements of suffering. So by cultivating a spacious dispassion for, for pleasure, then when a pleasure comes, you can deeply enjoy it and receive it, but still not be, you know, addicted and have the craving that creates the suffering. That's kind of how I look at music production (laughs) , is like, I have (laughs) I have kind of a, I have a dispassion for it in the sense that I hear, I, I'm here, I receive it when it's happening. I do instinctively and intellectually what I know needs to happen to it, uh, but don't get caught up in, in all of the human stuff with it.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm absolutely adamant that Cardi B felt the same way when she was recording-
- CACory Allen
Definitely. Definitely.
- CWChris Williamson
... the lyrics to WAP. And Megan Thee Stallion, she was v- very, very famous for her principle of non-attachment.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, she's ... Well, that track had quite an effect on you.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
Uh, she ... And-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I'm just-
- CACory Allen
Yeah, I know. It's-
- CWChris Williamson
I'm absolutely blown away by it, man. I find it ... I find that track particularly, and then the, um, associated social media furor that came out after it, to just be fascinating, uh, and that's a, a whole nother discussion that I think we could get into. But, um-
- CACory Allen
It's a great track, and Megan Thee Stallion is amazing. Like, her, her new album is, if you, if what ... I don't know if you've heard her, her album that came out last Friday, but yeah, I, I would recommend that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, so next. What have we got next? Let's play another song. We've got, uh, we played the Luminosity and Opening Eye. What else have we got?
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah. So I'll, I'll, we'll go into a, yet, uh, another direction. Uh, I'll just wrap up that, what I was talking about-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CACory Allen
... uh, uh, real quickly. And that is, you know, so I gave these tracks to Aubrey and he listened to them and was like, "Man, this is amazing." And so as we kind of talked about them a little bit further, we were like, you know, he's like, "Maybe, uh, maybe we should, like, offer these to people. We could sell them, put them on" his website. This is before I even had, like, the store on my website. He's like, "We could put them on w- my website and see, see who digs them." And so I did a, you know, we did some podcasts. We talked about them, and they just, like, the response was just crazy. It was like n- ... I never would have anticipated the amount of feedback and, like, response and, and stuff that listeners had to, to the binaural beats. And it started where I just, I think it's kind of since then, I've never not got a message, uh, you know, a day without someone saying, "D- dude, I l- these are ... I listen to these every day. Thank you." (laughs) You know?
- CWChris Williamson
What's the most common-
- CACory Allen
And-
- CWChris Williamson
... usage that you've found people use them for?
- CACory Allen
I think two things, either meditation or for focus. So, uh, and we'll get to the focus thing right after this. Um, and so, yeah, man, uh, it was really fascinating. I ended up licensing those to Onnit, you know, and so that was, that was cool. Like, they became a, you know, a nice, uh, kind of fixture within the, the Onnit, you know, world and expanded out from there. And then, then I just kind of continued in my own way to, like, you know, "Okay, well, I made those. Let m- let me continue on to the different, you know, um, intentional purposes of each one that people are hitting me up and asking for." And also, uh, I'm constantly ... My curiosity and d- didn't drive to kind of, uh, uh, I don't know, I guess improve upon a craft and like hone in something just as, as natural. And so I'm always like, "Well, let's see if I can ... How powerful and potent can I make these? Let's keep-"
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I mean, I, I, I still-
- CACory Allen
... tr-
- CWChris Williamson
... say that the Release into Now meditation series that you did, which will be linked in the show notes below-
- CACory Allen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... is still my favorite guided meditation. For anyone who wants to take it to the next level, it's p- ... I- i- in my opinion, it's a, it's a big ask for a beginner, um, because the sessions are like half an hour. But if you've-
- CACory Allen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... spent a little bit of time and you've built up a, a, a base level of a habit, like that thing just super ... over the space of six weeks just totally supercharges you. There's not a single person that I've said, "You need to go and get this to kind of level up your meditation game" and they haven't come back and gone like, "What the fuck was that?" Um-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 46:51 – 51:21
Flow-state engineering: gamma range, ‘Gamma Flow,’ and long-duration listening
- CWChris Williamson
He's an interesting dude. So one of the things I've noticed is that the two ... the area, the two areas that you mentioned were deep focus and, uh, meditation. So quite-
- CACory Allen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... mindful, quite open, quite present. But you mentioned that we've got these higher-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... higher ranges as well that we go into in terms of frequencies. Is that something that you just don't think people really need or that ... is it something that you actively tend to avoid in terms of creating binaural beats?
- CACory Allen
No, no, it's, um, i- it's an important one, and it's one of the most popular. So that's what, uh, it's a good primer to move into the next thing. Um, and so a lot of ... I, I guess a lot of the work I do generally through the meditation course or my podcast or, you know, uh, the music, a lot of it is about trying to get people to calm down. (laughs) You know what I mean? Calm down, relax, be present and sort of wake up to their own awareness. Uh, that's what a lot of my stuff does.So, um, also, the other- the counterpoint to that, the balance to that is the extreme focus, the f- flow state, the gamma state. So the gamma state is the highest state. You know, it's- it is, you know, heightened perception, flow kind of existence, mind. And so, uh, yes, that is a very- a lot faster of a vibration. That's generally what, you know, 40 to 60 hertz. Some people clock it at about 100. Um, but I think that 40 to- 40-ish to 60-ish is right, just in the way that I've felt whenever ex- I've experimented with them. So on the first set of binaural beats I made, which I mentioned to you that I- I shared with Aubrey, there was a track on there called Gamma Flow. And that was like basically, you know, it's pretty self-explanatory (laughs) . But, uh, it was meant to be like the, you know, kind of- that was a- a collection, you know, so that you get all sorts of different tracks in that- that collection, and that was the Flow State track. And that one, I think, has been one of the most popular of all of all time, uh, because it's really apparently has had a- a profound effect on listeners helping to get into their- their concentration state and their flow state. And the amount of people that have emailed me over the years have said, "Hey, I wrote my entire book to this. I wrote my-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Shit.
- CACory Allen
"... PhD." Yeah. Like, "I listen to this on repeat." So people have sent me like screenshots of their- their Apple, like n- you know, on iTunes, like the amount played, like the play count. They're like, "Here's Gamma Flow played, you know, 230 times." I'm like, "230 times? That track's half an hour long." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
You know? And they're like, "Yeah, I listened to it for a year on repeat while I was finishing my PhD thesis or whatever."
- CWChris Williamson
Shit.
- CACory Allen
And it's just like endless, endless. Yeah. And so, uh, that track people have really, really liked for flow state. And, um, yeah, so there's that one, and then after that, because people ha- you know, dug that so much, I ended up making the second volume of binaural beats I released with Aubrey, uh, are all flow state tracks. So it's four different flow state tracks. Um, so we can play some of Gamma Flow right now.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- CACory Allen
(ambient music plays) All right. So, um, so that's that one. Yeah, and that- it's pretty, uh, minimal and- and spacious, but you can, uh, you know, probably feel that flow happening. And, you know, these are, of course, you know, 30-second-ish samples that we're playing here. And the reason the tracks are so long is that, you know, in general, in play length from 30 minutes to two hours, is because the idea is, you know, the- f- kind of longer you listen to it, the longer your brain, you know, has the longer time, has to kind of sink into it, get into the zone. I think that generally they say it's about, you know, at least kind of two to four, five minutes to really enter the- open the door, you know, and then from there, it's another kind of five minutes to get further into... Sort of like meditation, you know, further into it, and then so on and so on. And once you kinda hit the- the 10 to 20 minute mark, you're- you're really sailing. Um-
- 51:21 – 57:30
Sound rabbit hole: stereo time-confusion, recording environments, and room resonance
- CWChris Williamson
What's the, um... It's like a whooshing sort of air, wind sound in that-
- CACory Allen
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... Gamma- Gamma Flow track. What's that thing?
- CACory Allen
Yeah. Oh, that's, uh, that's kind of, um, that's meant as a, uh, the stereo effect to really confuse time (laughs) . So, and it actually is the f- recording of s- of air that I took. It's like the coast recording of the, like, waves in Santa Barbara.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, how do you record air?
- CACory Allen
(laughs) Yeah. Very sneakily. Very, very quiet room, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You gotta creep up on it, right? Because it's- it's vigilant.
- CACory Allen
Yeah (laughs) , real, real quiet, quiet room in a powerful microphone (laughs) . No, um, you ever, speaking of that, as a side note, you ever heard of an anechoic chamber before?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, but-
- CACory Allen
It's-
- CWChris Williamson
... I can't remember what it is.
- CACory Allen
It's like a sound- soundless ro- room. So there's basically- it's designed inside to where n- there's no reflections. So basically, whenever we hear sound, we're generally hearing the reflections of sound, not the actual sound itself. So if you're in a room and you talk, you're not really hearing your voice. You're hearing your voice bounce off the wall behind you and off the ceiling and off the floor and so forth. Uh, but in one of the- that's why music studios have sound absorption and, you know, panels, because he wants to break those reflections and those resonances so that they- the microphone can actually record the source instead of the- the sound of the room. Also, interestingly enough, since we're in a- a sound wormhole, every space has its own frequency. So the, uh, the square footage of a room and the materials that the room is made out of, like the- the area of the room, it itself has a tone. So (laughs) if you're- when you're talking in your room, the- the width and length and height of the room itself, and as I said, the- the material of the walls, so h- how the reflections are coming, actually have its own tone. So if you- you speak in one room, it's gonna- there's a different kind of passenger in there with you v- and that's why auditoriums and music halls are very precisely, you know, designed so that they don't have that, or they- mainly they have an amplifying effect, but no real resonant effect. Um...
- CWChris Williamson
I remember once in one of the nightclubs that we were working out of, it had a huge back wall. So you can imagine, so it's got this high, high ceiling, and then halfway down the room, this high ceiling chops down into a low ceiling that continues to go. And the speakers at the front were throwing toward the back, and upon refurb, the guys, the builders had taken down this huge frame. It was like an image-... sort of poster, kind of like a poster, like a thick poster at the back on this main back wall. And they'd taken those down, and the guys s- soundchecked and threw the speakers back on in this new configuration. And it sounded so quiet. Like they were-
- CACory Allen
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... blasting these speakers to Hell, and it sounded super, super quiet. And what we realized was that that back wall, the painting poster thing, had actually been a bunch of conical, uh, sound absorbers. And what you were-
- CACory Allen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... getting was the sound being thrown from the front, hitting itself on the way back from the wall and getting-
- CACory Allen
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
... almost completely zeroed out, which was-
- CACory Allen
Nice.
- CWChris Williamson
... insane. You could turn it up super, super loud, and it would just sound like nothing because the sound hit the back wall, hit itself, and then just killed it.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, that's like a L, like a low frequency oscillator, like an LFO. You, you'll see that in, on synthesizers or in, or even like a wah pedal, like, uh, for guitar, like Jimi Hendrix, you know? That's then like an LFO. So it's like creating a subsonic sound that actually... So subsonic sounds are frequencies that are below e- even, like, you know, human hearing, like, way below. Hence the term subsonic. And they're so deep and, you know, the wave is so big that it pushes every, like, sounds out of the air. And so with a wah pedal, that's why it sounds wah-wah whenever you move the pedal, is 'cause it's literally creating, like, a break, you know, in the actual sound. Or even, like, a tremolo effect when you hear something going, like, du- like, statically, da-da-na-na-na-na-na. That's because it's just, like, literally there's a, a subsonic frequency pushing out all of the audio there in a rhythmic way that's, like, just blasting it out so it cancels it out. And so- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
There's a, a club in Glasgow called the Sub Club, and that has a subsonic dance floor. So it's got subsonic-
- CACory Allen
Whoa.
- CWChris Williamson
... speakers built into the actual dance floor itself. So when you have bass tones that come through that, you feel it through your feet.
- CACory Allen
Nice. That's awesome.
- CWChris Williamson
It's very cool.
- CACory Allen
That's like elf- that would drive elephants mad.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
You know, they (laughs) elephants, they can send... I read something (laughs) sometime is that they can, like, hear each other from miles away, because, you know, bass travels, obviously. And they can send, like, sounds that are so deep that the bass will just travel, like, a mile or something. And of course, they got big ass ears. And so that (laughs) ... I just think it's so interesting for an animal. It's, of course, their size and, like, their resonance. There's just go- they're a big old, that's a big double base right there. But, like, just an, an animal being able to send that deep of a bass sound (laughs) is such a peculiar... It's like, what if you could emit a sub-woofer sound from your body, you know? (laughs)
- 57:30 – 1:07:32
Sleep tracks (delta), wearables, and the ‘data vs distraction’ debate
- CACory Allen
one for sleep. So that's another thing that people hit me up so much about. And, uh, I got so many messages of people saying like, "Hey, you know, I've been, been working..." Like, uh, this is pre, uh, lockdown times, but people were saying like, "I've been working 10 hours a day and going to, you know, like, university at nighttime, and I have two kids, and I'm, like, on the verge of just a mental breakdown. And, like, I'm so fried and freaked out by the end of the day, I can't sleep. And the only thing I've been able to sleep is someone hooked me up with one of your tracks, and this has been helping me, like, deescalate and get to sleep at night. So just thank you." Whatever. I have gotten that message, you know, like, 100 times. And it made me realize, like, okay, people need something for sleep. And then, you know, of course, as tends to happen in this weird world, as I started thinking about that, of course I started having people message me requesting, like, "Hey, you ever thought about making tracks for sleep?" (laughs) I'm like, "Yeah, okay. That's clear. What is next?" Um, and so I made, yeah, I made the, the next, the tracks for sleep. Uh, and these are really deep. These are delta tracks. So these are, you know, to guide the, the mind literally to, like, dreamless sleep. Uh, uh, complete, like, lack, lack of body awareness type of zone. And obviously people aren't gonna be sleeping with headphones in most times, um, but I made the tracks, like, two hours long. So the idea is that you can... You get in bed, you know, and then you l- start listening to one of these, maybe you're reading or something like that. And then in that hour that you're kind of, like, chilling out before you actually try and sleep, you're already listening to that, getting into the zone. And then, you know, once you, you turn the, the lights off and probably take the headphones off, then you're gonna be, like, right there. So it can help you. It's kind of like a sleep primer is how I envisioned it, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Pre-workout. (laughs)
- CACory Allen
(laughs) But yeah. But there's a lot of, uh... It's interesting. Th- There are actually a lot of people out there that do use. Like, there's headbands with, like, h- uh, ear, earbuds built in.
- CWChris Williamson
So Muse, the guys who do that portable E-K, EEG, EKG, the brain sensing headband for meditation-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I just got popped by one of their ads, uh, the other day, and they've created something that must track your brain waves or your, your brain states while you sleep.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, that's their n- I, I, I talked... I know Ariel Garten, the founder of Muse, and she was telling me a while back, like last year, that was their next product, so...... it's cool that it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- CACory Allen
... it's out. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's come- it's come to market, man. I've seen it. But, uh, yeah-
- CACory Allen
Nice.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're totally right. The, the world for, for this stuff, um, there's State app, which is by Brian Mackenzie, which is a breath- breath work, um, application. And then there's SilentMode, which is a face mask with in-built headphones and, uh, accompanying music to do breath work to. And then-
- CACory Allen
Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
... there's wearables like Muse that were originally for seated meditation with audio feedback, and now are going into brain tracking whilst you're asleep. And, like, the wearables market is just, like, it's going-
- CACory Allen
Out of control, man.
- CWChris Williamson
... in all directions at once.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah. It's funny as I actually don't like any of that stuff. People, they send them to me, but I'm just sort of just like, "Uh, I don't, I don't need another, like, band to strap on." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I keep a... Don't use the word strap-on. A, uh, a keeper.
- CACory Allen
(laughs) Yeah, I don't need another strap-on to strap on. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CACory Allen
I got so many.
- CWChris Williamson
I have three already. Um, yeah, I, being honest, man, I've, I've struggled with, with pretty much everything that I've tried. I keep my Whoop strap-on as an activity tracker, um, but, uh, we were talking about this while I was away, it really doesn't feel like anyone's kind of captured the wearables market in the same way. If you think about the kind of leap that Apple had with the iPhone and just how much of a chasm there was between that device and everything else that's bef- before it-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and I don't think we've had that yet with wearables. You've got the Apple Watch, but a perfect example of this, Rory Sutherland, uh, Modern Wisdom, regular Modern Wisdom guest, he suggested that he thinks if Steve Jobs was still around, the Apple Watch wouldn't be made. He thinks it's too complex, too unintuitive, too highly priced-
- CACory Allen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and too user inefficient. Um, and I'd never heard it before, but I actually thought, "Yeah, do you know what it is? I, I buy everything from Apple." Like, they bring something out, I upgrade my laptop, I upgrade my phone-
- CACory Allen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... fairly regularly. But I've never had any desire to buy an Apple Watch, and I think he might be right with that. And I... The, the idea of wearables is right, but I think the execution, thus far, pretty much industry wide, is just a bit lacking.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, I agree. I'm not, I'm not a fan. Re- and yeah, I mean, I have an Apple Watch, uh, but I, uh, I'm not like, uh, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Begrudging it.
- 1:07:32 – 1:11:58
Evidence and clinical interest: anxiety studies, fMRI testing, and controls
- CACory Allen
Okay, and then coming out of that one, I think just, you know, with, uh, a few minutes remaining, touching quickly on some of the research around this stuff is important because, you know, some people are willing to just try a, a binaural beat or something and see if it works for them, and they're, "Okay, cool. I, I like this, and it makes me feel a certain way." Some people, uh, are a bit resistant to do it because they're like, "Okay, this, this is-" you know, a little skepticism which I think is healthy. Um, ultimately I, at the end of the day I say, with anything like that, you know, just give it a shot, and if it, if it works for you then cool, if not then, uh, then that's cool too. Uh, but there, there is a lot of, uh, research and increasingly so in, uh, th- over the last few years even. They, they've become very popular and, uh, for treating anxiety, uh, and different traumas and kind of going through traumas and things like that, but really for treating anxiety and trying to get people out of their, uh, even in a clinical state of, uh, of dealing with anxiety. So, one case in particular that I enjoyed, I was actually a part of, was a, a research, uh, team in Australia at one of the universities, two actually. There were two, uh, which unfortunately now I, uh, can't recall which one it was 'cause it's been a year or two since I worked with them, but, um, one, one of the major ones. (laughs) And so they had a, a neuroscientist there that, uh, was basically playing my tracks, and I created some actually, like, test tracks so they could use, um, kind of a control, uh, study s- thing going on. So some of them-
- CWChris Williamson
So did you make a binaural beat that wasn't a binaural beat?
- CACory Allen
Yes, yes. (laughs) So I made one with just the musical elements, and then one with the musical elements and the tones, so they had like a controlled track going on. So they would put people in there, mainly people that were, you know, struggling from psychological issues, you know, or anxieties or whatever it might be, put them in the fMRI scanner which is just kind of a, a brainwave, uh, reading machine, we'll call it that, and they would then monitor kind of how their mind was reacting and how their heart rate was reacting to it. And they showed, you know, very clear success, uh, through that brain imaging that the track with the tones was affecting, you know, the brain in the way it was supposed to in the sense of creating relaxation, slowing down the brainwave padding, patternings in the firing of neurons. Um, so it's very, very fascinating. I, I think that they're, a lot of them in the academic sense have been used for, or have been getting a lot more traction for use in, uh, in therapy sessions and stuff like that, and just general overall kind of wellness for people who are suffering psychologically and just kind of getting that recovery in.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the, I guess, the acute state change. Um, have we had a look, have you had any research to do with the trait change other than people sending you-
- CACory Allen
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... their heart rates-
- CACory Allen
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... steadily decreasing-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... over a six-month period?
- CACory Allen
Yeah. There have, there have been several studies of, you know, uh, selections of people who have kind of been interviewed an- and taken readings and, and different data points and so forth on their r- kind of resting levels of stress and, and, uh, anxiety and whatever, and, and then kind of used the tracks over the course of time and then gone back and gone in for, you know, more testing and monitoring and so forth and shown i- improvements and a reduction. They're all, they're all based on anxiety. I think that's where you can get the funding for studies like that, uh, improvements on the reductions of, of their anxiety and kind of their resting heart rates and things like that. So yeah, it's, it's all, it's all interesting. Yeah, and I, and I like reading about those things now and, now and again. But, uh, I think for me, for stuff like that, uh, I'm mainly just kind of like, you know, you could go read a bunch of reports. It's ki- I don't know, I kind of feel like there are supplements too where it's like, you can read all about them or you could just take one and see how you feel. (laughs) You know?
- CWChris Williamson
See if it works, yeah. And that again, if you could bottle the placebo effect, you'd have the most powerful effect in all of pharmacology, right?
- CACory Allen
Oh, yeah.
- 1:11:58 – 1:15:29
How to use binaural beats: headphones, situations, and the future in therapy
- CWChris Williamson
So the, the point is whatever works for you works for you, and the mode by that happening kind of-... is a little bit irrelevant. So, if someone's thinking, "That sounds good, Cory, you've sold me on binaural beats, mate," what is your suggested dosing? Is it more effective with speakers, if they've got good quality speakers, or with headphones, and how often and et cetera?
- CACory Allen
Yeah, definitely with headphones. Uh, the how often you can listen to them, that's up to you, you know, uh, how often you want to try and induce the effect. Uh, I, I listen to them during meditation. A lot of them are made for meditation, you know? Uh, and, uh, it's very viable and given that they're 30 minutes long, it's like you don't have to worry about a timer or anything. You just turn it on, and you know when the track's done, you're done. Um, and also, if you're ... I think another valuable time is that, uh, you know, I've had a lot of people reach out to me and say that whenever they're feeling kind of like in a crisis mode of just like really overwhelmed, really stressed with work or, or a relationship or whatever, and they're in that kind of like panicky, like, "Ah," that, that state, to drop one on, to remember to use them then and drop one on and just kind of lay down and, and take a little 10-minute chill, you know, very useful in times like that as well. Um, also apparently, uh, if you're writing a book or working on your PhD, then the, the Smashes it. ... game plan is very valuable but, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I was listening to-
- CACory Allen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Adam Gazzaley, who's a neuroscientist, on, um, the Sam Harris's podcast the other day, and he has got stage three. He's going into stage three FDA approval for brain training games that are made to force single focus, um, specifically to be used to combat ADD-
- CACory Allen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... but these games would actually require a prescription for you to get them.
- CACory Allen
Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
Which I thought, uh, I don't understand. Like it's just a game, but as with many things, something that can cause a positive change can also cause adverse reactions if not used properly or supervised or blah, blah, blah. But I wonder if down the line we'll see prescriptions written or perhaps at least doctors recommending binaural beats as part of a, a recovery protocol for someone who's post-surgery or PTSD or anxiety, depression, any number of psychological issues.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, a lot of therapists recommend them already for, just for people that are kind of dealing with just mental health challenges, you know, depression, anxiety, as you said, you know, PTSD, things like that. Um, yeah, they're just sort of, they're like, "Hey, take ... Listen to one of these and call me in the morning," you know? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I love it, man. I absolutely love it. Look, Cory, it's been awesome to have you on two and a half years, dude, and it was very well worth the wait.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, it's crazy how time flies when you're in the present.
- CWChris Williamson
Absolutely. Uh, people who want to check out your stuff, where should they go?
- CACory Allen
Uh, cory-alan.com. That's just C-O-R-Y-sh Allen.com. It's all there. The binaural beats, they're released into now course, my podcast, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
Astral Hustle-
- CACory Allen
Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
... go and check it out.
- CACory Allen
Yep, yep, it's all there.
- CWChris Williamson
Peace. Dude, thank you so much for today.
- CACory Allen
Yeah, thank you, man. Really appreciate you checking me out. (instrumental music)
Episode duration: 1:15:29
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode FBr6_fygGrc
