The Truth About Sports Recovery | Christie Aschwanden

1. 0:00 – 1:35

   Introduction

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hello, friends. I'm finally back in the UK, and you will be delighted to hear that that means a return to the twice-a-week podcast publishing schedule, so let's get into it. This week, I'm sitting down with Christy Aschwanden, who is the author of Good to Go: What the Athlete in All of Us Can Learn from the Strange Science of Recovery. Now, one of my favorite episodes so far was with Alex Hutchinson on the limits of human performance, as he explained what he discovered during research for his book Endure. And today, we're going to look at everything on the opposite end of that spectrum. So, from fancy foam rollers to cryogenic therapy, saunas, sleep optimization, uh, those compression pant things, those weird compression pant things, and every other form of recovery that you can think of and you've seen athletes (laughs) using on Instagram, we're gonna go through them today. Christy has done a fantastic analysis of all of the different ways that people are trying to recover, and assessed just what sort of impact they're having. So, if you are an athlete, or you know one who is looking to improve their recovery, then today is absolutely for you. Please welcome Christy Aschwanden. (instrumental music)

2. 1:35 – 2:30

   Christie Aschwanden

   1. CWChris Williamson1:36

      Christy Aschwanden, how are you today?

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden1:39

      I'm great. Thanks for having me.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:41

      Thank you for coming on. So, what are we going to learn about today?

   4. CAChristie Aschwanden1:45

      (laughs) Exercise recovery, all things that have to do with exercise recovery.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:50

      Okay. Recently, some of the guests will know there are a, a spot on the back of your book that Mr. Alex Hutchinson, the, uh, the man behind Endure is, uh, a, a big proponent, a big, big supporter of your book. And obviously, what he was talking about was a lot of the things to do within training, what's happening while you train, and, and the experiences that you go through during a session, and you're now talking about everything else, I guess.

   6. CAChristie Aschwanden2:16

      Yeah, that's right. And I think that the two really make nice companion books. Um, his, his book is all about training self, whereas mine is about the recovery process and, and all of these adaptations and things that happen in between workouts.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:28

      Fantastic. So, where does

3. 2:30 – 4:07

   Denver Sports Recovery

   1. CWChris Williamson2:30

      the book begin?

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden2:32

      Um, it actually begins at a place called Denver Sports Recovery, which is one of many, I like to think of them as recovery spas, that have popped up all around the US. I'm not sure actually, are, are these a thing in the UK as well?

   3. CWChris Williamson2:46

      I, I f- I'm gonna guess, is it one of those places where there's a cryo-chamber, and you can get an IV drip of s- of, uh, nutrients and stuff like that?

   4. CAChristie Aschwanden2:55

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:56

      Right.

   6. CAChristie Aschwanden2:56

      Exactly.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:56

      No.

   8. CAChristie Aschwanden2:57

      Exactly. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson2:57

      We are, unfortunately, in the, in the UK, that's, uh, that's reserved for kind of elite level athletes. It's not the sort of thing ... You can go to a spa and have a massage and, and go in a hot tub, but there's, uh, that's probably about the top end, I think, of, uh, of what you can get in the UK, unfortunately.

   10. CAChristie Aschwanden3:16

       Yeah, that's interesting. I know that there are a few in Australia as well. But it, it's definitely become a thing here in the US, uh, these places you can go in and for a fee, there are all sorts of things. So, it's not just, uh, massage and cryotherapy. Um, you mentioned IVs, which is another, another common thing, but there are also all kinds of foam rollers. There are, um, those ... I, I call them squeezy pants, but they're-

   11. CWChris Williamson3:39

       Mm-hmm. (laughs)

   12. CAChristie Aschwanden3:39

       ... they're pneumatic compression sleeves that you ... They're sort of like sleeping bags for your legs. You put them on and then they, they blow up with air and compress your muscles. And it, frankly, feels really nice. (laughs) That's another popular one. They'll have ice baths, saunas, uh, pretty much everything that you can purchase that would be used for recovery can be found at these places, at these recovery spas.

   13. CWChris Williamson4:02

       Wow. Okay. So, you're at this spa, and, and what's the, what's the story

4. 4:07 – 6:07

   Christies story

   1. CWChris Williamson4:07

      from there?

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden4:08

      Yeah. So that was kind of an introduction for me of, of looking at, okay, when I was a, a, an elite athlete, so I'll just step back for a second. Um, I used to be a runner, then I became a cross-country skier and cyclist. And, uh, when I was doing these, these things at sort of an elite level in the early 2000s and late '90s, um, recovery was really something that we weren't doing. It was something ... And what I mean by that is it was all these things that we weren't doing. You weren't standing up. You weren't staying out late at night. You weren't running around doing other stressful things. So, recovery was really about, you know, lying on the couch, maybe putting your nose in a book, but putting your feet up, and resting. Maybe you took a nap or something. But now, sort of in the interim, recovery has become its own thing, and almost an extension of training, where people are doing all of these things. They're putting on these squeezy pants. They're f- um, massaging all of their muscles with a foam roller. They're getting massage. And massage is something that is, that is very old and was done in, in my time as well. But it's become something where there's a sense that you need to do all these things, that it's not enough to just lie back and wait for recovery to happen, but you need to do things to facilitate it.

   3. CWChris Williamson5:23

      So, train hard, recover hard, right?

   4. CAChristie Aschwanden5:26

      Exactly. Exactly. If you're not recovering hard, then, you know, you're, you're not doing enough. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson5:31

      I totally get it. So, what ... Uh, during the course of writing this book, where was your mindset before you began? Because, you know, I, I, uh, for me personally, I do see a lot of, you know, foam rollers that vibrate, and, uh, and there's one-

   6. CAChristie Aschwanden5:48

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson5:48

      ... that's got a, you know, that, that this one'll have a Wi-Fi connection, and this one plays you Bluetooth music. And, you know, when you think like, okay, so, uh, uh, how far do I need to go with these marginal gains before it becomes, um, sweating the small stuff? So, where-

   8. CAChristie Aschwanden6:01

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson6:01

      ... where was your mind- where was your mindset before all of this? Were you skeptical of recovery, or ...

5. 6:07 – 7:58

   Christies mindset

   1. CAChristie Aschwanden6:07

      Yeah, that's a great question. So I really tried to go into it with an open mind. So I'm a science writer by training and by vocation, and I think it's really important, um, if you are having a scientific mindset, that means always being open to new evidence, to sort of keeping an open mind and, and making sure that you're truly looking at the evidence before you, um, without too much bias and all of that. So I went into it thinking, you know, "Wow, things have really changed since, since, you know, I was a serious athlete, and maybe this is something really important that I need to know about." Um, but I also had a level of skepticism because I thought, you know, this didn't always square with the things that I had experienced as an athlete and some of the things that I knew. So I guess I, I would say I went in with an open but skeptical mind.

   2. CWChris Williamson6:53

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CAChristie Aschwanden6:54

      So it was sort of like trust but verify, I think is a really good mantra, um, and an explanation of how, how I went into this. So I was definitely open to the idea that some of the stuff, this newfangled stuff, was really important, and in fact I did find things that, that were good and that, you know, there are some new things that I have adopted for myself after researching this book. But it also turned out that a lot of the things, you know, really weren't all that they were made out to be.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:19

      I think that's fairly inevitable, isn't it? That unfor-

   5. CAChristie Aschwanden7:22

      Right. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson7:23

      ... unfortunately, it's an area where, especially when we're talking about marginal gains here, it's so easy for a product to hide behind the fact that it doesn't work with a clever marketing campaign.

   7. CAChristie Aschwanden7:36

      Right. Right.

   8. CWChris Williamson7:36

      The, the, the direction of causality is, is super ... It's the in- Like, who knows, like, some days I wake up and I feel fantastic and I've only had six hours sleep. You know, like-

   9. CAChristie Aschwanden7:46

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson7:46

       ... was it, was it because of the very particular, uh, bath salts that I had the night before?

   11. CAChristie Aschwanden7:52

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson7:52

       Do you know, like, was it the incense that was burning in the corner, or, you know, is it just a quirk of the fact that you're a dynamic

6. 7:58 – 8:57

   Dynamic systems

   1. CWChris Williamson7:58

      system?

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden7:59

      Right, right, I think that's a good point. We are dynamic systems. Our bodies are very adaptable too, and that's the other thing. We've sort of been taught or sold maybe this idea that, you know, everything has to be optimal and that it's possible to optimize your body, and if you can just optimize, that there's this magical thing that will happen and that, you know, you may be performing well now but, but if you can get just all systems to this, you know, uh, mythical optimal state, that everything will be perfect. And it turns out that although it ... Look, I think that there is some truth to that. It's also true that our bodies are really, really good at adapting to different environmental conditions. I mean, we evolved to, you know, be able to handle heat and cold and all of these things that we might throw at it. And so, you know, we're pretty good at, at, at performing under different conditions, and so although there may be things that you can do that will help a little bit, um, I think that the expectations that we have here are oversized.

   3. CWChris Williamson8:54

      (laughs) Yeah, I get that. So

7. 8:57 – 10:08

   Marginal gains

   1. CWChris Williamson8:57

      did you-

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden8:57

      I mean, you, you ... Oh, so you talked about marginal gains, and I think that that's, uh, an interesting way of putting it, and this is sort of one idea that's out there that, like, well, you can do these things that on their own are really small but if you put them together then, you know. So if you have a bunch of things that only make a 1 or 2% difference, that may not seem like a lot, but if you do five or six of them, then all of a sudden, you know, you may be getting to 6 or 7 or 8% difference, and that's really huge. And, and again, in sport, even those small percent differences can be very meaningful. I mean, in a, a race, a 1% difference could be the difference between the winner and someone who's an also-ran. So, um, that's one idea that's really been put out there. Now, there's been (laughs) a lot of talk, um ... Sometimes, um, people who talk about marginal gains have been accused of, of, you know, using that as a way of explaining, uh, gains that might've been made by more illicit means-

   3. CWChris Williamson9:51

      (laughs)

   4. CAChristie Aschwanden9:51

      ... and that's a whole debate (laughs) that I don't wanna get into, but I assume that you're familiar with, uh, some of that conversation.

   5. CWChris Williamson9:58

      Yeah, I'm sure that everyone who's listening will be. So before we, before we get into the meat of the individual elements-

   6. CAChristie Aschwanden10:03

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:03

      ... did you come up with a, with a definition or did you find an appropriate definition for exercise

8. 10:08 – 11:06

   Definition of exercise recovery

   1. CWChris Williamson10:08

      recovery?

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden10:09

      Yeah, that's a great question, and that's kind of where I started, and I thought, "Okay, the first thing I need to do is define this," and it was like, "Oh, crap. Like, this is actually (laughs) a lot harder than I thought," and everyone I talked to would have a different definition. I mean, in terms of looking at it scientifically, like, what are the factors that will show that you're recovered and what do we really mean by this? And so, um, I guess I would just say that on its most basic level, I think recovery is really about a return to readiness. So you've done a hard bout of exercise, and recovery is basically ... that just means that your, your body is recuperated, it's rested, it's ready to go hard again. So whatever processes need to go on in between those bouts have happened, and it's, it's this return to readiness that really underlies it.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:55

      Across the entire system?

   4. CAChristie Aschwanden10:57

      Right, right.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:59

      Okay. So you've found your definition.

   6. CAChristie Aschwanden11:01

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson11:02

      Where did you, where did you move from there? What were the first things that you looked into?

9. 11:06 – 13:47

   What happens in the body when were recovering

   1. CWChris Williamson11:07

   2. CAChristie Aschwanden11:07

      So I started looking at, okay, what's really happening in the body when we're recovering, and you know, what I found ... And this, this had squared with sort of what I had learned back in college and also my experience as an athlete, is that basically, um, you know, adaptations that we make in response to exercise are things that happen not during the, the training itself but in the interim. So you don't get stronger, you know, while you're lifting the weights. You get stronger because your body, you know, responds to that weightlifting that you did and makes changes, and so you're creating, like, microscopic damage in the muscles and the, the muscle is rebuilding itself and sort of bolstering itself to become stronger for the next time. And so that's a, a really important sort of fundamental concept, is that recovery really is when these adaptations take place.

   3. CWChris Williamson11:55

      That's something that I've heard from, you know, even when you're a gym bro, when you're 18 years old and you start doing your first cur- (laughs)

   4. CAChristie Aschwanden12:02

      Right. (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson12:02

      ... first curls in the gym, you, you hear all about the, the fact that you don't grow in the gym, you grow when you sleep, and I, I think-

   6. CAChristie Aschwanden12:09

      Right.

   7. CWChris Williamson12:09

      ... even then I had a massive amount of skepticism. I'm like, "Oh yeah, whatever, mate." Like, you know-

   8. CAChristie Aschwanden12:13

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson12:13

      ... it's not, I just need to, I just need to lift more weight. But your s- suggestion is that that's, that's correct.

   10. CAChristie Aschwanden12:20

       It is. And I'll also just say, it's interesting that you bring up, you know, your younger self, because almost universally, as I was speaking to athletes about recovery, and particularly very accomplished and, and, um, athletes who had been in the game for a long time, they almost universally told me that, "Yeah, when I was younger, when I was first starting out, I really didn't give recovery the attention it deserved, and I thought it wasn't a big deal. And I, I never really focused on it or gave it much of a thought." And as athletes age, and as they get more experienced, they realize, "Oh, wow, this really is, you know, a lot of the magic here, and one of the things that I really need to pay attention to." And it's also true that as you get older, uh, your recovery needs increase. So, that's another reason that older athletes sort of have a better appreciation for recovery than younger ones.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:07

       Oh, I mean, when you're, when you're young, when you're a, a teenage athlete, you're just made of rubber and fairy dust, aren't you?

   12. CAChristie Aschwanden13:14

       Yeah. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson13:14

       And you're just ... You're capable, capable of bouncing back from anything, and injuries just, you grow a new arm, and you, you, you know-

   14. CAChristie Aschwanden13:22

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson13:22

       Like, you lose an eye, another one comes back. Like, it's, that it, it kinda does feel a bit like that. But yeah, as, as you mature through your athletic career, you become chronically aware of your own mortality, (laughs) I think. And-

   16. CAChristie Aschwanden13:33

       Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, to a fault, right? (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson13:36

       Yeah, totally. So, you've defined what exercise recovery is. Did you create, uh, any broad categories of, of, of what contributes to that?

10. 13:47 – 15:11

    Stress and recovery

    1. CWChris Williamson13:48

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden13:48

       Yeah. So, there are a couple of things. And I think, um, one really important concept that came to me, and I think is sort of unappreciated or under-appreciated by a lot of athletes, is that your body responds to stress the same whether it is physical stress or emotional stress. So, in other words, um, we often, when we're thinking about recovery, think of it in terms of, "Okay, I did a hard workout today," or, "I didn't," or, "Today was a rest day in terms of what my training was." Um, but at the same time, don't give attention to, "Okay, what kind of stress is going on in my life? What's happening in my personal life? Am I stressed at work?" Or if you're a, a student athlete, at school. And these other stresses can be just as, as, well, stressful to your body, um, as the physical stress. And so to really recover well, you need to address the other stresses, you know, the psychological and emotional stresses in your life. And this is something that pretty much every good coach that I talk to has also sort of learned and, and tells their athletes, that, you know, if on your rest day you're dealing with, uh, stress at work or difficulties at home, you're not really resting, and you need to find ways to address the stress in your life.

    3. CWChris Williamson15:00

       Did you manage to quantify the relative, uh, contribution to or, or degrading of, of recovery based on, um, those factors versus the more, I guess, the more physical ones?

11. 15:11 – 16:50

    I believe the magic metric

    1. CWChris Williamson15:12

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden15:12

       Yeah. I mean, that's a good question, but I don't think that it has a hard and fast answer. I mean, a lot of this stuff is just extremely hard to quantify. And, uh, I have a whole chapter in the book, uh, called, I believe, The Magic Metric, and that is all about sort of attempts to use data to quantify recovery and find ways to measure it, and it's really interesting. And I'll just ... This is kind of a spoiler, but there've been so many different studies and looking at so many different physiological factors, but it turns out that in the end, nothing really trumps just this, um, qualitative measure of, how are you feeling? And things like mood actually are a much better predictor of over-training than something like, you know, something you could measure in a blood test or on a heart rate monitor.

    3. CWChris Williamson15:56

       What's very interesting about that, and I'm sure that some of the listeners will be agreeing with me, is that in Endure by Alex Hutchinson, what he talks about is RPE-

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden16:07

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson16:08

       ... or as, as I've kind of re-adopted it, the, um, rate of perceived discomfort, the RPD, uh-

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden16:14

       Right. (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson16:14

       ... and, (laughs) uh, he uses that. And he says, "You know, you can look ... Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can look at the, the lactate threshold and the VO2 max, and you do blah, blah, blah. But the best determinant of someone's capacity to endure is how they feel under X degree of stress." And y- you're saying that this, I guess, what would we call it? Uh, rate of perceived recovery, the RPR perhaps? (laughs) Or the-

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden16:39

       Right. Right, yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson16:40

       ... um, you know, that would be, that would be the, the best overall aggregate global, um, figure that you could give

12. 16:50 – 19:35

    Rate of perceived recovery

    1. CWChris Williamson16:50

       yourself.

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden16:51

       Yeah, that's right. In the book, I talk about, um, some different attempts. So, there are some measures that are like, little tests or things that people can keep track of various factors. And again, it doesn't go down to one single thing. Um, but looking at things like mood or paying attention to just sort of patterns in your life, um, that people have been working on, and there are actually a couple of interesting, um, apps and sort of computer-based or diary-based things that people can use. There's a really good, one of the best measures and sort of trackers for looking at, at over-training and, and that athletes can use to prevent themselves from going over the edge, um, actually looks at mood states and sort of not just how you're feeling, like, are you feeling tired or not? But are you feeling moody? Are you feeling depressed? Do you feel like training? So, it was really interesting for me to learn that, like, I, I ha- I'm someone who during my athletic career, um, had some bouts of over-training, and basically when this happens, you just, you get in this hole and you can't get out of it. And no matter what you do, you're just tired. Your, your muscles are blown and you, you just can't, you know, it, it ... You're not coming back.

    3. CWChris Williamson17:57

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden17:58

       Um, and it turns out ... And, you know, when I was in periods of over-training, I almost always felt like I didn't feel like training, and I didn't wanna train, and I was in a bad mood. And what I learned while researching this book is that those feelings and those moods were not ... You know, at the time, I thought, "Wow, I'm really terrible here. What kind of athlete am I that I don't feel like training?"

    5. CWChris Williamson18:16

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden18:16

       But like, that's my body saying, "Take a rest."

    7. CWChris Williamson18:19

       (laughs)

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden18:19

       You know, "Lay off for a while." And, and I think that this is really common though. And in fact, I have some stories in my book about other athletes of all sorts of different, um, ability levels and sort of, um-... types of athletes who have gone through this, and it's almost universal. I think that if you are an athlete who's training hard, you're just really inherently driven, and so there's this idea that, you know, your body may be telling you, "I'm tired," and you think, "I just gotta push through this, and if I just go harder or do more, the rewards will be there." But it turns out that that's not how it works. (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson18:52

       (laughs) It's so difficult. It's a very nuanced, uh, appreciation to know, am I giving up because I am stopping myself before my, uh, uh, my work is done? Or am I giving up because I've pushed myself too hard? And this came up again with Alex, where I'm like-

    10. CAChristie Aschwanden19:07

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson19:07

        ... where do you draw the line between being a bit of a pussy (laughs) -

    12. CAChristie Aschwanden19:11

        Right.

    13. CWChris Williamson19:12

        ... both with your training and with your recovery, and how do you know that you're still pushing yourself hard enough? And I suppo- suppose the devil's in the details there. So, if you were to take the, the foundations that you've found in terms of the basics of good recovery...

    14. CAChristie Aschwanden19:27

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson19:27

        Would you be able to, would you be able to take us through, uh, those w- w- kind of what, what are the building blocks upon, upon which recovery should be started?

13. 19:35 – 20:59

    Building blocks for recovery

    1. CWChris Williamson19:35

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden19:36

       Yeah, so the most fundamental and important building block is sleep. I mean, it's really, like if, if you were to ask me, like, "Tell me the one thing that works," it's sleep. And, yeah, I would say that the top 10 or top 20 things that work for recovery are sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep.

    3. CWChris Williamson19:51

       (laughs)

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden19:51

       Like, it's really that important. Um, it's sort of like sleep is the cake and everything else is just icing. Um, it, it really, if you're not sleeping well and you're not getting enough sleep, you're just everything else doesn't matter. And so sleep is a really important thing. Um, and also just resting and in the sense of, um, re- relaxation, I guess, I would say. So that sort of... And by relaxation, I mean the sort of overall holistic thing where you're not just sitting still and not exercising, but, uh, you're also reducing the stress in your life, and you're feeling relaxed. Like that, that sort of rejuvenation and relaxation is really essential to sort of, um, letting your body do the work that it needs. You're giving it all those resources to make those repairs and, and to make those adaptations that you're looking for.

    5. CWChris Williamson20:42

       Was there a, um, a Goldilocks zone that you found for athletes who were training? Let's say that a, a typical athlete's training, you know, between an hour to two hours a day, five days a week. Was there a, a, a, a, an appropriate amount of sleep or is this very massively person to person?

14. 20:59 – 22:27

    Genetics and sleep

    1. CWChris Williamson20:59

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden21:00

       So, sleep is individual, but it, it doesn't... There's a lot of people that say, "Oh, I sleep six hours and I feel great." And it turns out... (laughs) So, there is a genetic condition that is extremely rare, though I will say, like, chances are if you think you're one of these people, you probably aren't. Um, there's a genetic condition though, where some people really truly only need something like four or five hours of sleep. But this is something that runs in families. It's, it's very distinct. It's not just like you think you feel okay if you get less sleep. It's something where people just fundamentally can't sleep longer. Um, but most people who say that they get by fine and feel great on say six hours of sleep are actually, um, fooling themselves. And what is true is that they are just extraordinarily well-adapted to sort of coping with the impairments that they have on that much sleep. So, they're actually fooling themselves. And there are some interesting studies, which I talk about in the book, where they look at people, you know, who are sleep, sleep impaired. And what happens is, the first night after you don't get enough sleep, you feel tired and you sort of know that you're impaired and you, you feel awful. But if this continues, what happens is you, you sort of stop noticing it, and that kind of, um, cognitive impairment and physical impairment just becomes the new normal to you.

    3. CWChris Williamson22:09

       (laughs)

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden22:10

       And so, while you think that you're coping well, you're not, and, you know, probably if you asked, you know, your, your coworkers or friends or whatever, they, they might be able to t- set you straight as well. (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson22:20

       Yeah. Okay. So, it's s- sleep is important. We've said that. Is there a-

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden22:24

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson22:24

       ... is there a minimum amount that you would recommend for most athletes?

15. 22:27 – 24:00

    How much sleep do you need

    1. CWChris Williamson22:27

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden22:27

       Um, I mean, I think seven is kind of the minimum. And again, this is something individual. The very best way to figure out how much you need is to have... And one night isn't enough. If you're, if you're chronically sleep deprived, it's gonna take you a while to kinda get caught up to where you're at some sort of baseline. But, you know, have a few nights where you are not setting an alarm, don't have any reason to get up, where you can just truly sleep as long as you, as you want to, and see how much, how much sleep your body wants. Um, but I would say, you know, less than seven, you're, you're really playing with fire. And a lot of athletes... And having talked to a lot of athletes while writing this book, it seems as though, um, many, many athletes prefer to get a minimum of eight.

    3. CWChris Williamson23:07

       Uh, yeah. I think... So f- for me, uh, the, the, uh, listeners to the show will know that we are massive Matthew Walker, uh, evangelists on the show. And we've... Uh, there was a, a podcast. If you haven't checked it out, it's, uh, in the 20s. I think maybe number 29, with Dr. Greg Potter from the University of Leeds, as we talk about the definitive guide to sleep. And in that, we can talk about sleep hygiene, and the room needs to be a little bit cooler and a hot shower before you go to bed.

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden23:30

       Right.

    5. CWChris Williamson23:30

       And, you know, the darkness and, uh, do it in line with the circadian rhythm. Sunlight exposure during the day and dark exposure at night, et cetera.

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden23:38

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson23:38

       It's all the sleep hygiene stuff. Um, and, you know, the, the specifics of it aside, I think the bottom line is kinda the same as time under tension, right? It's like you, you, you can try and fine-tune your environment as much as you want. But it's the equivalent of buying a really nice pair of running shoes and never going out for a run. You're like, look, like just, just go to sleep and get some sleep-

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden23:59

       Right. (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson23:59

       ... for a bit.

    10. CAChristie Aschwanden23:59

        Right.

16. 24:00 – 24:56

    Building good habits

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden24:00

    2. CWChris Williamson24:00

       Um...

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden24:00

       Absolutely. And so much of it, like you, like you say, is really about building good habits. It shouldn't be as much that you're trying to get more sleep before a competition or after a hard workout, but that it really becomes, like, the way that you live an important part of your life. And really, I think that it's important to note here that one of the ways that... What, or one of the things that needs to happen for this to... You know, for you to get good sleep is to prioritize it. You know, we're just in an era where we have things constantly at us and vying for our attention, and it's really easy to get caught up in screens and different things. And you just have to say, "Look, sleep is a priority for me, and it's something that I'm going to prioritize over..." You know, there may be other things that you have to give up or that you have to give lesser attention to in order to get that sleep. But until you prioritize it, it's just, it's not going to happen for you. (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson24:50

       Yeah. I get that. So, sleep is important.

    5. CAChristie Aschwanden24:53

       Yep.

    6. CWChris Williamson24:53

       How about recovering through our diet?

17. 24:56 – 27:26

    Food and recovery

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden24:56

       Yes, good question. So uh, food is really important for recovery. You're obviously, hard workout, you're burning through carbs, protein, um, all ki- all kinds of things. You're using energy that you need to replenish. Um, you need to... Our, our muscles, um, are fueled on glycogen. So there's glycogen stores, and so after particularly an endurance workout, um, these can be depleted, and so you want to replenish those stores. Um, but what I found out while researching the book was kind of interesting, and that is, um, yes, nutrition is absolutely important, of course it is, um, but we've kind of made it out to be something more precise than it is. So um, it's important to get carbs, it's important to get protein, and as you get older, protein becomes a little bit more important too. Um, this is a little bit preliminary, but it seems as though as you get older, uh, your body's ability to sort of take up protein, um, becomes a little bit impaired, and so you really need to be sure not to skimp on protein as, as you get older. Um, and obviously if you're doing strength training or things that are really taxing your muscles, where there's going to be a lot of repair going on in the- in the muscles, then- then protein is important. Um, but this idea that there's this magic window, recovery window under which you have to get these nutrients in to optimize your recovery, it turns out that that's- that's something that, um, is really overstated. Um, I had one researcher tell me, "You know, it's not a recovery window, it's more like a recovery barn door."

    2. CWChris Williamson26:24

       (laughs)

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden26:25

       But as long as you're not... So there is a circumstance under which it's really important to get these, you know, nutrients in right away, and that is if you are about to perform again. So if you are say, um, at a track meet where you're- you're having one bout of exercise and then you're gonna do another one soon. Now again, if- if you're doing something really short, you're probably not depleting a ton of energy, and so you don't- you don't (laughs) need to get calories and calories and calories. A small snack will do it. But unless you're gonna perform again, you know, within the next 10 or 12 hours, something like that, um, it's perfectly fine to just have your next meal, have a regular meal, eat what you would eat. Um, you're going to be okay. Um, yeah, again, it's important to replenish those carbs and the protein, but getting, you know, this really specific amount or getting it in a particular window just isn't nearly as important as you may have been told.

    4. CWChris Williamson27:16

       So the anabolic window as it's called, and the intra-

    5. CAChristie Aschwanden27:19

       Right.

    6. CWChris Williamson27:20

       ... all the intra-workout glucose drinks and stuff like that, wh- is, what's the efficacy

18. 27:26 – 28:35

    The anabolic window

    1. CWChris Williamson27:26

       of those?

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden27:27

       Yeah, so it turns out, you know, here the timing... It's not the timing that's magical, it's the nutrients themselves. So like there are some re- some studies looking at, um, timing of protein and it's like, it turned out that it didn't matter, you could eat the protein before the workout or during the workout or after and like the results were sort of the same. It- it wasn't, you know, that- that perfect timing that was making the difference, it was just that you were getting those nutrients to begin with. And so it looks as though protein spread out throughout the day is a really good approach, rather than trying to take it all in one bolus right after a workout. Like it's- it's fine. You want to have protein in your diet, um, you need to have carbs particularly if you are, um, doing endurance exercise. And I know, I'm very familiar, (laughs) I know that there's a- a debate going on about whether, uh, you know, this high fat, low carb diet is good- good for athletes, and some people are- are proposing that. Um, but I think, um, a lot of research is just showing that, you know, when you exercise hard, you do deplete carbohydrates, and that's what your body's fueling itself on during those- those bouts.

    3. CWChris Williamson28:31

       I was gonna say, what's your stance on people doing marathons on keto?

19. 28:35 – 30:57

    The science behind nutrition

    1. CWChris Williamson28:35

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden28:35

       Um, I actually think... I- I don't have like a really strong stance on this. So, uh, if you go and look, I actually wrote a story for FiveThirtyEight, um, where I'm the lead science writer, a few years ago. Uh, I believe the headline was something like, "You Can't Trust What You Read About Nutrition." Um, maybe you can put it in the show notes. Um, but basically looking at nutrition studies, and it turns out that nutrition's just a really difficult thing to study, and a lot of the things that we think that we know about nutrition are- are based on pretty shoddy methodology and studies that- that, um, aren't nearly as definitive as we've been led to believe. Um, I think that there are a lot of ideas out there about diets. Um, a lot of it is more sort of religion than (laughs) science-

    3. CWChris Williamson29:18

       (laughs)

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden29:18

       ... you know, people sort of take their stand. Um, and I think that it's totally legitimate for athletes to try different diets and, you know, if someone finds that a keto diet works for them, go for it. I don't see any reason to tell them they absolutely can't do that. Um, I'm not convinced that it's performance-enhancing. I mean, there was the, um... Louise Burke did a study of race walkers, elite race walkers, where she had them on this diet and it did not seem to improve performance. Um, but yeah, there are people that swear by it, and I do think that, you know, diet is something that's worth, um, playing around with on an individual level. But I think that we just don't have the evidence on a level of granularity that we want. We want to be able to say, "If you eat exactly this much of this nutrient or this food or this, that, or the other thing, we'll get this outcome." But those things that we're looking at are so complicated that it's really hard to attribute that to one food or to one component of food. And so what ends up happening is, um, yeah, you have what are probably small effects, um, getting drowned out in a lot of the noise with the complexity of- of these issues that you're looking at.

    5. CWChris Williamson30:24

       I get that. I get that completely. I think sweating the small stuff is... You know, athletes seem to be super concerned that their predigested vegan whey that's paleo and- and- and-

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden30:37

       Right. (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson30:38

       ... and ethically sourced from the mountains of Kenya has been taken in with the right blend of MCT oil-

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden30:44

       Right.

    9. CWChris Williamson30:44

       ... this, this... And you think, "Yeah, mate, you're- you're still in a calorie deficit and you're training four hours a day." Like you- you don't sweat the small stuff, focus on- focus on the big winners, which I'm gonna guess is making sure that you're eating enough and eating a varied diet.

20. 30:57 – 31:42

    Athletes eat different diets

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden30:57

       Exactly. Exactly. And I think the other thing to note here is that, you know, there are elite athletes in sports that eat very different diets, um, you know, and they're, they're performing well. So, you know, o- (laughs) one athlete, you know, if you're a Norwegian skier, you probably start the day with toast and that brown, um, sort of sweet cheese that they like to eat, you know? And that's not something that people generally eat in the US, but it works fine. And so, but to say that, you know, those Norwegian skiers-

    2. CWChris Williamson31:25

       (laughs)

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden31:25

       ... are so fast because of the, the, the brown cheese is just ridiculous.

    4. CWChris Williamson31:29

       Yes.

    5. CAChristie Aschwanden31:29

       Right? (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson31:29

       Brown ch- brown cheese is, like, the most Norwegian food.

    7. CAChristie Aschwanden31:32

       Right?

    8. CWChris Williamson31:33

       Toast, toast and brown cheese is exactly what I thought Norwegian people ate. Um-

    9. CAChristie Aschwanden31:37

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson31:37

        ... why... Okay, so why, why does Usain Bolt work well on chicken nuggets?

21. 31:42 – 33:34

    Usain Bolt ate chicken nuggets

    1. CWChris Williamson31:42

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden31:42

       Oh. (laughs) Well, I think it's an example of just showing that, here you've got this guy who's the be- world's best sprinter, right? And, like, so you can, you can decide that he needs to eat this, like, super specific, special diet. But what he decided when he was at the Olympic Village in Beijing and was worried about eating the local food because it was unfamiliar to him, was that he was gonna go for the thing that he knew he liked. He knew that, you know, he could digest it without problems. And so, you know, he ate a bunch of chicken nuggets at the Olympics-

    3. CWChris Williamson32:10

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden32:10

       ... and won a bunch of gold medals. And, you know, to suggest that, that the, the (laughs) chicken nuggets were the secret behind the gold medals is ridiculous, but I think you have to flip that around and also say that, you know, had he eaten something that we more traditionally thought was, you know, the performance-enhancing, you know, some of the things you were mentioning, you know, the, the vegan protein or the, you know, whatever it is, um, it would be just as ridiculous. And so, you know, what's important is that he got... He replenished the c- calories that he needed. He got protein, he got carbohydrates, he got, you know, the basic nutrients, and so he was fine. And I think that, um, one, one danger here is that if, if the things that you're doing for recovery, or if your nutritional needs... So you're an athlete, you're on the road competing, and if it becomes so important to you that you have this special, specific food that's hard to get, that just becomes a new source of stress, and it's, it's kind of the opposite of recovery, and you're not doing yourself any favors. And chances are, whatever benefit you're getting from that special food is being outweighed by the stress that you're experiencing by, you know, this need t- to procure it.

    5. CWChris Williamson33:16

       Yeah. I suppo- unless it's perhaps something that you know that you can always carry with you or whatever it might be-

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden33:21

       Right.

    7. CWChris Williamson33:21

       ... you, you are right. You're totally, totally correct there. So you touched earlier on upon massage, uh, soft tissue work, uh, foam rolling, and other techniques like that. Moving into that, what, what does the science say?

22. 33:34 – 39:27

    The science behind massage

    1. CWChris Williamson33:34

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden33:35

       Yeah. It's really interesting. Um, so I think massage is one of the most popular recovery modalities. I know I'm a huge fan. I love it. I think most athletes like it. And, you know, when you look at the science behind it, there are a lot of, of claims that are made. So for instance, that it's flushing your blood, that it's getting lactic, lactic acid out of the muscles and that that's important. And I'll just say that, um, whenever someone tells me that, that something works by flushing lactic acid, I'm sort of like, "Okay, that, that doesn't hold up." (laughs) Because, you know, we used to think that lactic acid was what made you sore after a hard workout, and we now know that that's not the case. And regardless, it turns out that your muscles are really good at clearing lactic acid on their own. So by the time you're using one of these things, the lactic acid has probably gone to begin with.

    3. CWChris Williamson34:20

       (laughs)

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden34:20

       (laughs) Um, but with massage, um, yeah, there are claims that are made about, about this, or, or, you know, hormones or flushing lactic acid, and those don't seem to stand up. But what massage really does, and almost universally does, is it makes people feel good. It makes someone lie down for an hour and relax, and, you know, they're not looking at their phone, they're not thinking about other things. Um, they're just sort of actively relaxing, and I think, you know, at its most basic level, that is recovery. You know, anything that makes you feel good, anything that, that allows you to take some time out of your day to really give your body a chance to rejuvenate and to relax, that's recovery, and, and that's working. Like, we could consider that working. (laughs)

    5. CWChris Williamson35:05

       Uh, yeah. Uh, so one of my first ever episodes was actually with Dr. Quinn Henoch, the doctor of physical therapy for Juggernaut Training Systems.

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden35:13

       Mm-hmm.

    7. CWChris Williamson35:13

       And in that podcast, he, uh, he said the sentence, "There is no scientific basis to say that massage, static stretching, or dynamic stretching does anything on the mechanism that people thinks it... think that it does work on." And he used an analogy... Have you heard about the, um, experiment that was done using metal tools to do soft tissue work on rats? Have you seen this?

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden35:38

       Uh, I think-

    9. CWChris Williamson35:38

       Oh, it was little, little mice.

    10. CAChristie Aschwanden35:38

        ... I think so.

    11. CWChris Williamson35:39

        Little mice ACLs. So they ruptured the mice's ACLs, and then they, they did some, uh, some work with steel tools. Um, um, one iteration of the study, they, uh, y- used it for soft, soft tissue work, and in another one, they didn't do anything. And they, they did find that in the s- iteration of the study where they used this tool, that the recovery was quicker.

    12. CAChristie Aschwanden36:00

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson36:00

        But what they didn't, uh, explain was that the size of the tool that they were using was a human-sized tool, and the amount of pressure that they were applying was human pressure to a mouse.

    14. CAChristie Aschwanden36:11

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson36:12

        And the, uh, (laughs) the study... He, he ran the, the, the figures forward and basically worked out that your flesh would literally shear apart or would rip apart-

    16. CAChristie Aschwanden36:23

        (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson36:23

        ... before you created a 1% shear in the muscle tissue.

    18. CAChristie Aschwanden36:27

        Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson36:27

        So, you know, I think y- y- you're right, and it, it's, it's interesting and also reassuring to hear-

    20. CAChristie Aschwanden36:33

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson36:33

        ... that there isn't, there isn't massive amounts of conflict between what, what you've discovered and what he says as well. But that I think people presume that the, the lying on a foam roller that vibrates, uh, because it's working out adhesions in the muscle, uh, it's, uh, helping with microscopic tears, and stuff like that, and yet what the main mechanism it's working on appears to be activating the parasympathetic nervous system and just getting people to calm down and, and, and be in a state which is conducive to recovery. Is that, i- is that fair to say? Is that remotely accurate?

    22. CAChristie Aschwanden37:06

        Oh, you-Yeah, you just explained it right there. I mean, it, it's just as you said, that it's, it's not ... So, one thing, this is sort of a recurring theme in my book, is that there are a lot of things that people said worked and claimed worked, and really, you know, were like, "You can take this," you know, "over my dead body." (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson37:22

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CAChristie Aschwanden37:22

        "Take this away from me over my dead body." But oftentimes, the explanations that were given didn't hold up. So, it wasn't that it's not working, but it may just not be via the mechanisms that they say, and you've just explained it quite well, um, about massage and particularly things that, that, um, seem to target fascia. And it's interesting because fascia is something that's, um, this is an area of a lot of research right now, and I think it's very early days, so there's a lot more we don't know than, that we do about f- fascia, and it may end up that, you know, there are s- things that we have not yet, you know, come to understand. So, um, you know, in terms of whether foam rolling is good or bad, um, I would say that right now, the science that we have suggests that, you know, a lot of the way that it's working is really, um, through, um, the nerve system. It's, it's not, uh, so much that it's some physical mechanism there. But we're still, you know, it's still early days with this, so I'd put-

    25. CWChris Williamson38:18

        There's lots, there's lots to be discovered, right?

    26. CAChristie Aschwanden38:20

        There's lots to be discovered, and so my, my advice here is just sort of like, if you're doing it and you feel like it makes you feel better and you feel like it's quote-unquote "working," then keep doing it. There's no, like there's nothing that I found that was like, "Oh my god. Foam rolling is terrible, stop doing it."

    27. CWChris Williamson38:34

        Mm-hmm.

    28. CAChristie Aschwanden38:34

        At the same time, I did not find any compelling reason why it should be done, so if you're someone, and I've had multiple people tell me, "Please tell me I can stop foam rolling."

    29. CWChris Williamson38:42

        (laughs)

    30. CAChristie Aschwanden38:42

        If you're one of those people, I give you, I hereby give you license to not do it because you know that-
23. 39:27 – 41:57

    Massage

    1. CWChris Williamson39:27

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden39:28

       Um, a little bit. So, there, there is some, there is some evidence potentially that, um, in that sort of scenario, that a little bit of massage can be helpful, um, that sometimes, uh, something cold might help. Um, but really, one thing that's really great is just really light, uh, exercise. I mean, when I was a high school runner, we used to call it a warm down or, or a warm up, right?

    3. CWChris Williamson39:51

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden39:51

       And so, um, but that easy activity. It could be, you know, in the Tour de France, oftentimes you'll see the guys spinning on their trainers, um, after a race, um, but where you're just sort of keeping the blood flow going so that, that, um, you know, the w- the muscles are warm, that, that, um, you're, you're still doing some motion without it being taxing, and so-

    5. CWChris Williamson40:14

       Wh- wha- why is that a good idea? 'Cause, you know, for me as a lame- lay person thinking about the body, I think, "Right, it's worked as hard as it can. Now it needs to not work as hard as it can." Whereas, this is more like a middle ground.

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden40:27

       Right, it's kind of a middle ground, and I'll just say that we don't have compelling evidence that this is like absolutely necessary. And, uh, you know, an interesting thing that I learned while working on this book is that so many of the things that we do in sport are based more on sort of like, "We've been doing this, it seems to work," and beliefs about like, "Well, this is how we did it before and we've had success," than on hard scientific evidence. And this isn't to say that like people aren't, don't care about evidence or they're trying to, um, push off things that don't work, but just that the stuff is really hard to measure sometimes and it's hard to study. And so if something's working, there's a lot of compelling, or even if it's perceived to be working, there's, you know, compelling reasons there-

    7. CWChris Williamson41:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden41:09

       ... in many cases to keep doing it. And so, um, you know, if we don't know for sure whether it's good, then a lot of people will say, "Well, I like it," so ... (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson41:18

       Yeah.

    10. CAChristie Aschwanden41:18

        Some cases that may be-

    11. CWChris Williamson41:19

        And that's good, that's good enough?

    12. CAChristie Aschwanden41:21

        That may be enough. Yeah, yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson41:22

        Okay. So, we, we talked about the, the cryo chamber stuff like this, these super cooled-

    14. CAChristie Aschwanden41:28

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson41:28

        ... t- kind of tanks that you step into, right, and it goes to some insanely low temperature?

    16. CAChristie Aschwanden41:34

        Yeah. Yeah, it, it's quite an adrenaline rush, I'll say. (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson41:39

        Just how cold does it fit? 'Cause I've n- I've never been in one and, uh, you know, I step outside my door sometimes in the middle of January in the North of England and I think could last for about five seconds, so ...

    18. CAChristie Aschwanden41:49

        It's about that cold. (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson41:51

        Okay, fa- fa- fair enough.

    20. CAChristie Aschwanden41:51

        That sounds like a good, a good proxy, yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson41:52

        So, I mean, does it, does it-

    22. CAChristie Aschwanden41:53

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson41:53

        ... work and is there any evidence to suggest it works and

24. 41:57 – 45:09

    The Placebo Effect

    1. CWChris Williamson41:57

       ...

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden41:58

       Um, I could not find any compelling evidence that, that these cryo tanks were performance-enhancing or recovery-enhancing. Um, that said, and some of the claims that are made about them are just ridiculous. I mean, I have a scene in the book where I'm sort of relaying some of the claims that have been made to me, um, by a, a purveyor of cryotherapy and the sports science expert that I'm talking about starts laughing because, I mean, they're, they're really that laughable.

    3. CWChris Williamson42:23

       What, what are the claims?

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden42:24

       (laughs) Um, things about, um, uh, super oxygenating the blood, which of course isn't a thing-

    5. CWChris Williamson42:31

       (laughs)

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden42:31

       ... and, um, you know, doing all these crazy hormone things. Um, but I think at the end of the day why people like this so much is, um, I also have a whole chapter in the book about placebos and the placebo effect. And I think it's worth reading because one of the things that I get into there, and it's probably beyond the scope of our discussion here, but is just how, um, some people and some coaches are using the placebo effect to good, for good. So, we kind of tend to think of the placebo effect as a sign that, well, it doesn't work, but it turns out that, you know, our bodies are really powerful and the expect- an expectation that we have can be, you know, in some cases, almost like a powerful drug. And so, I don't think that this is something we should dismiss and it is worth thinking about whether it's something to harness. And I think that, um, you know, my experience with the cryo chamber really had a strong, uh-... you know, seemed to be set up to have a, a strong placebo effect because, um, there's pretty good evidence that placebos that are unpleasant work better than things that are pleasant or that, y- don't have anything. So, like, taking a pill, placebo pill is less effective than having a placebo shot, for instance.

    7. CWChris Williamson43:40

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden43:41

       Um, but the other thing I could say, so it turns out that cryotherapy, the, the tanks are really popular among martial arts fighters, and I can totally understand this because you get in there and then you, you get out, and you just have this, like, feeling of being totally pumped and totally amped, and it's just this huge adrenaline rush.

    9. CWChris Williamson43:58

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CAChristie Aschwanden43:58

        And I can totally get why that would feel great before a match and just really get you ready. Um, but in terms of, like, is this going to make you recover better, there's just not good evidence for that.

    11. CWChris Williamson44:09

        So, the mechanism, again, what we're talking about here is that it's how it makes you feel and potentially that it's making you think about your recovery and spend some time on it. What, uh-

    12. CAChristie Aschwanden44:18

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson44:18

        ... one of the, the super cool things that, uh, uh, spoke to Dr. Gregg Potter from University of Leeds about... The sleep expert was, he said that the, the placebo effect is the most reliable effect in all, all of pharmacology, and if we were somehow able to bottle a placebo, we would have a panacea. And you're like-

    14. CAChristie Aschwanden44:35

        Oh, yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson44:36

        ... it's, it's so hilarious-

    16. CAChristie Aschwanden44:37

        (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson44:38

        ... that s- (laughs) that you've got this thing which kind of doesn't work, but the fact that it doesn't work is the reason it does work. And i- it's this-

    18. CAChristie Aschwanden44:44

        (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson44:44

        ... this, like, universal snake oil, but it's actually kinda got... It's, it's really, it's f- I find the concept, my increasingly deep understanding of what placebos can do, it, it's-

    20. CAChristie Aschwanden44:55

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson44:56

        ... uh, I really, really enjoy it. So, moving forward, what were some of the crazier approaches for recovery that you came across? O- obviously, crazier than super cooling your body to, like, minus 50 degrees.

    22. CAChristie Aschwanden45:08

        (laughs)

25. 45:09 – 46:05

    The IV Drip

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden45:09

       Right, right. Crazy is in the eye of the beholder, right?

    2. CWChris Williamson45:11

       Yeah.

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden45:11

       Um, I think when someone asked me the other day if there was anything that, like, I refuse to try, and one of them, um, there are places now that you can go to get IV injections of vitamins-

    4. CWChris Williamson45:21

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CAChristie Aschwanden45:22

       ... and things, and this is supposed to aid recovery. And I actually have a whole chapter in the book about, about supplements, nutritional supplements, inc- including vitamins. Um, and so I said, "Absolutely not." (laughs) "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna inject these things." I mean, my research showed that, that, uh, none of these things were likely to be helpful in the first place. And the idea of injecting them into my bloodstream just seemed like foolishness.

    6. CWChris Williamson45:45

       So, the IV drips. Uh, 'cause there's, in America-

    7. CAChristie Aschwanden45:48

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson45:48

       ... it's not the same in the UK at the moment, but-

    9. CAChristie Aschwanden45:50

       Uh-huh.

    10. CWChris Williamson45:50

        ... in America, espe- I know especially in, like, party towns like Vegas, you can go and get, like, a hangover drip, right? You, like, you wake up-

    11. CAChristie Aschwanden45:56

        Oh, yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson45:56

        ... one morning and you, you're suffering a little bit, and then you go in and they, they fill you up with this, with this drip, and you lie there for an hour, and then your hangover magically goes away.

26. 46:05 – 47:05

    The Hangover

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden46:05

       Oh, yeah. So the one that I was at, they actually had... I was watching, there was a couple there, um, dressed in, in... I'll just say, uh, clothes that made me think that, uh, these were high-end parties. They had just flown in that morning-

    2. CWChris Williamson46:18

       Oh, wow.

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden46:18

       ... from a party in Aspen, so this was in Denver. So, they had just flown in specifically to get this IV and, you know, it was clearly, uh, intended to undo whatever damage they may have done partying the night before.

    4. CWChris Williamson46:32

       (laughs) Uh, it's... I, I find the whole concept of, like, a medical procedure to undo a hangover... I mean, to be fair, I've had some hangovers where I've wished that a doctor would be able to come and fix it. So, maybe it's just a bit-

    5. CAChristie Aschwanden46:45

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson46:45

       ... maybe it's just an available

    7. CAChristie Aschwanden46:46

       ... we've all, we've all had at least one morning where we wished for such a thing, right?

    8. CWChris Williamson46:49

       I just want the fucking pill-

    9. CAChristie Aschwanden46:51

       (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson46:51

        ... or the IV drip-

    11. CAChristie Aschwanden46:52

        Right.

    12. CWChris Williamson46:52

        ... or whatever it is. Yeah. No, I, I, I totally get that. Um, so you, you mentioned that the, the IV drips were in there with the crazier stuff. Was there, was there anything else that you came across that you were surprised by or couldn't believe?

27. 47:05 – 47:56

    High Altitude

    1. CWChris Williamson47:05

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden47:05

       Yeah. And so, okay, so I live in Colorado. I'll just preface this by saying, and so we're at high altitude, and so, um, we get a lot of tourists, and so people worry about the altitudes and whatnot. But I was seeing in multiple places that I went these oxygen inhalers. So, the idea is you inhale this straight oxygen and that was going to make you feel better, which, um, you know, if you had a medical condition or were truly, you know, low in oxygen, uh, that could be helpful. I think anyone who's really an athlete and in decent shape is probably not in that category, and it's just not going to be helping you. I mean, even at higher altitude of the order that most places in Colorado are-

    3. CWChris Williamson47:41

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden47:41

       ... it's, that's not going to be the thing that's, that's, you know, the limiting factor in your recovery.

    5. CWChris Williamson47:46

       You, you've touched upon it there, altitude chambers, I'm gonna guess, are a, a commonly used tool, uh, for Tour de France athletes and endurance athletes, I suppose?

28. 47:56 – 48:57

    Training

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden47:56

       Yeah, they are. And th- these aren't used... I'll just say this, these aren't used so much for recovery as for training, so it's really about getting adaptations and whatnot. Um, but they do seem, um... You know, it's interesting, the literature shows that there may be responders and lesser responders to altitude, which is kind of interesting. Some people go to altitude or use an altitude chamber and really get more red blood cells and whatnot, and others don't. I think we're still trying to sort of figure out how that all, um, lays out. But these have been used for a long time and seem to be an effective training tool, particularly if you're going to be competing at altitude.

    2. CWChris Williamson48:31

       That is super interesting. I, it's, um... But I guess, again, as you said earlier on, horses for courses, right? That you need to kind of-

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden48:38

       Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson48:38

       ... learn, learn what works for you. So, one thing that I wanted to touch on before we finished up was, did you find, uh, any particular individuals who have a, an unnatural ability to recover or some people who have particularly poor abilities to recover? Is there a, a big swing with regards to that?

29. 48:57 – 50:07

    Camille Heron

    1. CWChris Williamson48:57

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden48:57

       Absolutely. And I think that this is... I mean, this is in a way similar. I think it's a, a different skill or a different talent, um, but just as some people respond really quickly or really well to training, there are some people that need more or less recovery. And I talk about one person in the book, her name is Camille Herron, she's an ultra marathoner, and she seems to have just a super natural ability to recover. It's quite remarkable. Um, she kind of got into the ultra endurance events after figuring out that she could do marathons in a row. And, you know, there are people that-... do many marathons, you know, seven marathons in seven days and things like that. But usually they're sort of in it to, to finish and, which is (laughs) a huge accomplishment. You know, she's someone who can actually perform at a, a high level doing that, and she is now doing ultra marathons. She currently holds the world record, um, for a 100 met- ... I'm sorry, a 100-mile run for any person of any gender, um, on a certified course. So she's, she's an amazing athlete and she seems to really back that-

    3. CWChris Williamson49:59

       So that, that record for 100, 100-mile run is currently held by a female?

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden50:03

       Mm-hmm. That's right.

    5. CWChris Williamson50:04

       That is crazy.

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden50:05

       Yes, it is.

    7. CWChris Williamson50:05

       Why do you think that is?

30. 50:07 – 51:39

    Is this the event

    1. CWChris Williamson50:07

    2. CAChristie Aschwanden50:07

       Um, I think it's because she's an extraordinary (laughs) athlete-

    3. CWChris Williamson50:11

       Okay.

    4. CAChristie Aschwanden50:11

       ... and, um, you know, if you're asking why, you know, is this the event? There's, uh, you know, this is a whole, uh, topic of conversation that's been ongoing for a long time, you know. Is there an event where women could outperform men? And there's a lot of thought that maybe, you know, if there was such a thing, an endurance event might be that because of differences in metabolism and things like that. So, that may be part of it. Um, I also think that this is an event, you know, that she is someone who is very elite and has probably ... you know, some of it is that these things are somewhat new. They're not entirely new.

    5. CWChris Williamson50:45

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    6. CAChristie Aschwanden50:45

       Um, but yeah, I think she's just an incredible athlete, and I don't think that her, her biggest accomplishments are yet behind her.

    7. CWChris Williamson50:53

       Wow. I mean, that's-

    8. CAChristie Aschwanden50:54

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson50:54

       To have e- to have a, a, an event like that, which is, uh, ultra, ultra running, where you wouldn't have considered a woman to be winning the 100 meters-

    10. CAChristie Aschwanden51:04

        Right.

    11. CWChris Williamson51:04

        ... and you roll that forward and you go, "Well, w- w- why is 100 miles any different?" As far as, you know, I, I didn't know that fact. And in my experience, the main endurance event that women had an advantage in, as far as I knew, was swimming, long distance swimming because of the particular makeup of their body and changes in buoyancy and their ability to move through the water and stuff like that. But to hear that the 100-mile, uh, race is wo- is currently held by a woman, that's, that's really cool.

    12. CAChristie Aschwanden51:30

        Yeah. Yeah, it really is. It really is.

    13. CWChris Williamson51:32

        It's awesome. So, Kristi, can you tell the listeners where they can find you online and where they can find your book?

31. 51:39 – 53:45

    Where to find Christie

    1. CAChristie Aschwanden51:39

       Yeah. So my book is www.goodtogobook.com, and you can find me on Twitter @cragcrest. Um, that's C-R-A-G-C-R-E-S-T, as in like crag, craggy, crest.

    2. CWChris Williamson51:55

       (laughs)

    3. CAChristie Aschwanden51:55

       It's, it's a place name. (laughs) It's, it's actually the name of my favorite trail run. Um, and then my website is my name, kristiashwanden.com.

    4. CWChris Williamson52:02

       Fantastic. I will make sure that the link to Good To Go and all of your socials, plus all of some good articles that we've spoken about, will be in the show notes below.

    5. CAChristie Aschwanden52:11

       Okay. I had one, one other little thing to plug and that is, um, next month, so in f- mid-February of 2019, I'm launching a new podcast. It's a little bit of a departure from what we've been talking about, but it's called Emerging Form, and it's a podcast about the creative process. Uh, my co-host is a poet, and we basically spend 30 minutes each episode talking about some creative conundrum, and then we bring on a guest to help us answer some questions. And I do think that there are a couple of episodes that would be interesting, though, to athletes as well. Um, one of the ones that I really like is about talent and whether it's necessary, and so we have a pretty good debate about that. And, uh, you can-

    6. CWChris Williamson52:49

       That sounds, that sounds fascinating.

    7. CAChristie Aschwanden52:51

       Yeah. You can find it. It hasn't launched yet, but it will soon, and it's at emergingform.com.

    8. CWChris Williamson52:57

       Amazing. Well, once that's up, make sure that you send it across and I will fire it out to the listeners. But in the meantime-

    9. CAChristie Aschwanden53:02

       Awesome.

    10. CWChris Williamson53:02

        ... uh, hopefully we will have helped some people understand their recovery. Uh, I genuinely think that if y- if everyone was to go back and listen to Alex Hutchinson's episode where he talks about endurance and then comes to this, hopefully we've got, you know, y- your training sorted and you know-

    11. CAChristie Aschwanden53:16

        Yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson53:16

        ... your RPE, and then you've got your recovery sorted and you've got your RPR, and now you just need to go and sleep and then lift some weights. (laughs)

    13. CAChristie Aschwanden53:24

        That's right. Absolutely. (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson53:26

        Thank you very much for your time. Thank you for coming on today.

    15. CAChristie Aschwanden53:29

        Oh, thank you for having me. It's been my pleasure. (lively music plays)

    16. CWChris Williamson53:33

        Bye-bye.

Episode duration: 53:45