The Truth About Women & Relationships - Neil Strauss, World's #1 Pickup Artist

1. 0:00 – 3:25

   Neil’s Perspective on Relationships

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Talk to me about your trajectory of perspective on relationships over the last few years. What's the- what's the story arc that you've gone through there?

   2. NSNeil Strauss0:10

      Yeah. I mean, there's ... I have, like, my private story arc and a public story arc, and they're kind of the same. And so I'll just tell the arc, uh, the best I can, which is basically (laughs) ... Basically what I do is I just try to... I'm do- I do the same thing you do, I just try to figure out things in life. And when I get stuck, I just do all the research and talk to all the people, as well as have all the experience that I need to to learn. And so the first place I got stuck in my life was just dating. And as a guy who was writing for The New York Times and Rolling Stone about music and around on tour with rock bands, around all kinds of wild decadence, I felt like I was a guy on the outside watching everyone else have all the fun. So the first book, obviously... Not the first book, I think it's my, was my third or fourth, but The Game was probably the most infamous one, which is me trying to figure out dating (laughs) and being in this world of, uh, uh... and, and being fascinated by this world of these pickup artists and the- all the social implications of it at that, at that time. Uh, and so that was me trying to solve the problem, let's say, of courtship in my life. And then great, dating was a lot easier to solve than the next problem, which is relationships, right? People complain about their dating issues. When it comes to relationships, they don't just complain, they really, uh, struggle, grieve, go into- into, uh, locked boxes of stress and trauma and confusion that almost no one else can enter 'cause... It's fun to hear people talk about their bad dates, but talking about a rat- bad relationship, most friends after one or two or three years when someone experience the same problem actually get tired and this person's stuck in the situation. I mean, it's- it's- it's tough. It's easy to stop dating s- someone you're... You have a bad date, you have a b- date with someone who's horrible, you just, uh, send them a polite text or I guess ghost them, right? (laughs) People do that. But if you have a bad relationship, how do you get out of that? And, uh, and does the other person accept your boundary that you want to leave? Usually they don't. Usually as soon as they feel abandonment, they start chasing you and not letting you leave, even if- even if they don't want to be in the relationship, that rejection is so much to them. So- so The Game was the easy book. (laughs) And then f- figuring out the relationship part, and especially looking at my own issues in relationships and my own patterns and taking a tough look at myself with relationships and not even what drew me to the game and those pickup artists, that was like the next step. So that was the next step of the journey and that's the next book. And maybe the third book is- is, uh... So ended up through everything I learned, having a awesome marriage, have a father of a eight-year-old, a nine-year-old now, and it's like the best, and I'm also have like an amazing divorce (laughs) . So meaning that I'm like best friends with my son's mom, I feel like we really are like ama- I love co-parenting, uh, and- and looking at the other side of- of, uh, how do you... And I guess it's such an amazing divorce that we're actually having another child together with my son's mom.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:24

      I-

2. 3:25 – 11:23

   Co-Parents But Not Partners

   1. CWChris Williamson3:25

      Your ex-wife and you are no longer together in the traditional sense, but are having another child because of how well you get on as parents?

   2. NSNeil Strauss3:38

      I think, like, we're great co-parents, and I think we get along wonderfully and, uh, and- and ready to sort of take that journey together in a new way.

   3. CWChris Williamson3:49

      Wow.

   4. NSNeil Strauss3:50

      Interesting, right?

   5. CWChris Williamson3:51

      That is... Th- I've never heard of that.

   6. NSNeil Strauss3:55

      No, I know. It's funny, I saw your face when I said that. And, uh-

   7. CWChris Williamson3:58

      I've spent a lot of time researching mating behavior, and that's the first time... I mean, what a- what an irrational way to look at something as... So is- i- is your perspective around your previous marriage, "We work as co-parents, but not necessarily as partners"?

   8. NSNeil Strauss4:15

      Ex- exactly. The romantic and sexual energy may not be there, but- but we're really-

   9. CWChris Williamson4:20

      How are you going to make the baby?

   10. NSNeil Strauss4:21

       The baby's already made. (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson4:23

       Okay. How did you make the baby?

   12. NSNeil Strauss4:25

       So- so- so it's about four months. Um, (laughs) I'll t- I'll tell you-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:28

       The old school way?

   14. NSNeil Strauss4:29

       Yeah. (laughs) I'll tell you about that. I'll tell you about... Let me- let me- let me backtrack for one second, and then I'll tell you- I'll tell you how we got there. It's- it- it's- it's... Uh, people are gonna have s- people may have s- it'll be interesting. I'll tell you, though. I'm- I'm happy to share. Um, but let- let me s- let me talk about the divorce for one second, because like I'm... Again, I'm always fascinated by what is happening in my life now versus what already happened. And I thought about this a lot, and I haven't heard people talk about this, but learning everything I did about trauma, uh, divorce, I mean, I think it can be... It's tough if you're a child of a divorce where the parents are fighting with each other, but it's also tough if you're a child of parents who aren't divorced and fighting with each other. You just don't want parents fighting with each other, in front of you at least. Um, so when we got divorced, I thought, "Well, how do I make this a positive experience in that person's life?" Meaning our child's life. And I thought, "He needs a couple things." One is- one is that it has to be a value add to his life, not something being taken away. So what does that mean? So for him, he had a friend who recently moved to a new house and he thought that house was cool, so I said, "How would you like two houses?" Instead of just one house, you're gonna get two houses now. And I remember we dropped him off, me and his mom brought him together to the new house, uh, and I remember he got out of the car and he was so excited. He was just like so happy, I'm like, "Shit, we're doing this right." Like, I think the mistake... And again, there's nothing wrong with it, people do what they- the best they can, is when you sit the child down, you prepare them for bad news. It doesn't have to be bad news. It's great news if it's- if you're both happy, uh, which isn't always the case. Then now the second thing I think you need besides a value add is no interruption of service.... and the service being the love of- of both parents. And so, that has to continue or get bigger, and this can be a positive experience in a child's life. So, so (laughs) given that we, uh, feel like we have a great child and- and raised it well, um, I guess you want me to talk about th- this part? (laughs) So, so, uh, so, um, I'm cool, I'm cool with what... (laughs) I haven't- I haven't talked about it, but, uh, so-

   15. CWChris Williamson6:38

       (coughs)

   16. NSNeil Strauss6:38

       ... so we thought, y- yeah, let's have a child the regular way, but literally, m- maybe the divorce was maybe five, six, five years ago. We actually celebrate our de-anniversary. Like-

   17. CWChris Williamson6:48

       (laughs)

   18. NSNeil Strauss6:50

       ... this is all gonna be about divorce. (laughs) You're like, "You're gonna talk about relationships and dating," and now we're just talking about divorce for the whole time.

   19. CWChris Williamson6:54

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. NSNeil Strauss6:55

       But, uh, yeah, we celebrated our de-anniversary, meaning that I think getting out of a relationship is harder than getting into one.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:02

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NSNeil Strauss7:02

       Right? And so we should celebrate the fact that we're able to, like, compassionately get out of it, so last- last night was our de-anniversary, so we celebrated together with- with- with- with our son. (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson7:14

       Wow. Okay.

   24. NSNeil Strauss7:15

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson7:16

       Talk to me about how you made the baby.

   26. NSNeil Strauss7:17

       Okay, got it. I know. Uh, I've been crossing-

   27. CWChris Williamson7:19

       I'm gonna k- I'm gonna keep pushing you.

   28. NSNeil Strauss7:20

       Yes. (laughs) So yeah, so- so, um, this is the craziest thing, uh, (laughs) I feel like I'm gonna get some shit over this but I'm- I'm fine with it. It is- it is what it is. Or maybe I won't, I don't know. But I feel like there's people out there with a certain narrative.

   29. CWChris Williamson7:32

       Mm-hmm.

   30. NSNeil Strauss7:33

       And nothing I do will fit anyone's narrative. (laughs) That's kind of the pattern of my life. But, uh, so we thought, well, we'll just have the baby the old-fashioned way, and then it just kind of felt weird. Like, literally, she's like my sister. We're literally, like, best friends and that... And so it just felt, it just felt weird doing that with your best friend or your sister. Sometimes that energy is just not there. And so, uh, so- so syringe in the bathroom (laughs) -
3. 11:23 – 18:38

   Letting Go of the Pickup Artist Identity

   1. NSNeil Strauss11:23

   2. CWChris Williamson11:23

      Hmm. Was it difficult or has it been difficult for you to let go of the past versions of you, those previous identities? You know, The Game was such a sort of cultural moment that you're now the pick up guy, even though you were kind of a, like, um, you were doing anthropological observation basically of this world, stepping in, observing what was happening, coming back and telling everyone. How difficult is it to let go of the previous versions of you, especially when the public has an expectation?

   3. NSNeil Strauss11:55

      I mean, super easy for me, hard for other people.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:59

      Why?

   5. NSNeil Strauss12:00

      Because, like, it's done. Like, like literally, if I- if I have an experience and then I write a book about it, that's my best- that's my best telling and my best version of that experience, and then I move on to the rest of it and move on with the rest of my life. I think it's funny that it's surprising.... at all. Because how it would be a tragedy to get stuck in a version of who I was and what I thought was right 20 years ago, or whatever it is-

   6. CWChris Williamson12:25

      Hm.

   7. NSNeil Strauss12:25

      ... and then keep marketing that. I really feel that people try to brand themselves, (laughs) right? They're the, they're the... I- I was even looking at one of your podcasts, there was, like, someone who was the, the- they were always the something-something, right? (laughs) The- the- the, uh, the Hormone Wizard or the-

   8. CWChris Williamson12:44

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. NSNeil Strauss12:45

      ... Decorating Guru or- or the-

   10. CWChris Williamson12:47

       The Fat Loss Magician.

   11. NSNeil Strauss12:48

       Exactly. Exactly. And then, like, but, uh, there's a great saying from Leonard Cohen, the- the songwriter, and he was speaking at, uh, at a music festival and the music festival was, like, just- it was going off the rail. It was just- the- the- this- k- kids were going off the rails and- and, uh, and- and very similar, our culture always goes through these moments. There's, you know, right now where- where- where, uh, we're- we have the- there's always these amazing moments and he goes... He said this great quote, he said, "Those who are married to the spirit of their generation are doomed to become widows in the next."

   12. CWChris Williamson13:22

       What does that mean to you?

   13. NSNeil Strauss13:23

       What that mean- what that means is if you- you just plant your flag and you say, "This is it," guess what? You keep evolving. The world keeps evolving.

   14. CWChris Williamson13:31

       Hm.

   15. NSNeil Strauss13:31

       Life keeps evolving, and you're stuck in the past. And I've certainly sat there with people who had a big health message that they were really tied to, who no longer believed it, who no longer ate that way, but because they have a certain following that expects that, they keep doing that. What happens is you get a split in yourself.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:48

       Mm-hmm.

   17. NSNeil Strauss13:49

       Right? And you're saying one thing (laughs) while doing another, and that- and I think ultimately the goal at the end of the day is to just like yourself, (laughs) right? And you- you're not gonna like yourself deep down if you're a hypocrite.

   18. CWChris Williamson14:03

       Yeah.

   19. NSNeil Strauss14:03

       Or- or if you're still saying something you no longer believe or have moved on from 'cause you're... Like, so much of what you talk about, so much of what your guests talk about is just having freedom of choice, and if you're- if you do one thing that's successful and then your audience expects that and then you start catering to them, like, you're- you're not free. It's a horrible way to live.

   20. CWChris Williamson14:21

       Yeah. And you will begin to resent the people around you as well, or the audience that you have.

   21. NSNeil Strauss14:25

       And it doesn't work. And it doesn't work.

   22. CWChris Williamson14:27

       And people can see through it.

   23. NSNeil Strauss14:28

       I always say, like, your audience only expects what you've done before 'cause they don't know what you're gonna do next. So they just- they don't know that, and so surprise them and give it to them. And I- like, I think I try to never be afraid to move in whatever direction I feel called to, uh, and trust that if I just care about it and I do my best that it's gonna find its right audience, whether it's my audience or another audience. I don't think that way.

   24. CWChris Williamson14:55

       Is there something that you rely on to continually prioritize that sort of authenticity and that, uh, linear, uh, path from spirit to- to sort of world? 'Cause people do get captured, you know?

   25. NSNeil Strauss15:07

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson15:07

       And it's- it's not like they're all doing it because I've- I've found that talking about keto means that I can make some money and therefore I'm gonna be the keto guy. There's just a fear of becoming someone new. Is there something that you rely on to help you stay authentic when you're looking at moving onto the next phase of life?

   27. NSNeil Strauss15:23

       I- I would say it's more not s- it's more not something I rely on or something I do. I think it's a- it's a culmination of all the things I don't do, (laughs) right? So- so- and what I d- and- and I- and so I think there's nothing you have to do but it's just- it's letting go of attachment to stories, the story of who you think you are, the story of who other people think you are, the story of what supposedly works. 'Cause the fact is, none of those stories even work, you know (laughs) what I mean? Like, like eventually you're saying the same message and people get bored of it and sort of move on. Uh, it becomes predictable or you just seem like you're in the past or behind the times or something, so I don't even think those strategies really work for people. And by the way, side note, there are some kinds of people who really have one message and that's their message they wanna share and that fulfills them. I've certainly met people, and I'm sure you have on this podcast, who really have one message to say and that's really authentic to them and they don't have this curiosity that you and I have and so many of your guests have. Uh, and that's true to them, but- and- and that's cool, right? (laughs) But I think it's just about being true to yourself and, like, honoring that above all.

   28. CWChris Williamson16:26

       Yeah, I mean, even thinking about the transition from The Game to The Truth, like, ex-player chooses monogamy is a very convenient cultural narrative. It makes a- makes for a great headline.

   29. NSNeil Strauss16:39

       Which- which is- which- and- which- e- 'cause they're- they're games we play, right? So that isn't what the book about- is about. So you're talking about The Truth and the- and for sure the narrative was pickup artist chooses monogamy, but the book had nothing to do with being a pickup artist and the end result wasn't about monogamy. It was about, it was about really choosing the... And the message of the book is, if you're unhealthy, any relationship style you choose is gonna be unhealthy, whether it's monogamy or-

   30. CWChris Williamson17:04

       Mm-hmm.
4. 18:38 – 23:10

   Our Current Mating Culture

   1. CWChris Williamson18:38

      Do you think our current mating culture is at odds with our evolved psychology?

   2. NSNeil Strauss18:43

      ... um, elaborate on that question a little bit.

   3. CWChris Williamson18:46

      We have what seems to be, ancestrally, a monogamish or serially monogamal- uh, mo- monogamous, um, approach to- to- to mating, that som- somewhere between four and seven years, that's kind of the cycle, it's enough to get a child to be, uh, energy independent, they can go off and look after themselves, and then you and your partner are going to go separate ways. Yet we live in a culture that, uh, even though casual sex is allowed, and even though casual sex is often promoted, I think when children come into the picture, it's like, "You're supposed to be together for life, there's something sacred about this union." Uh, we have confluent- the confluent era of romance, you know, it's not because your next door neighbor has cows and you have goats and then if your son marries their daughter then, you know, you can combine your lands together or something like that.

   4. NSNeil Strauss19:30

      Is that- is that- is the word for that confluent?

   5. CWChris Williamson19:32

      So the most recent-

   6. NSNeil Strauss19:33

      What's confluent?

   7. CWChris Williamson19:33

      The most recent-

   8. NSNeil Strauss19:34

      I haven't heard that one.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:34

      ... era is the confluent era. So-

   10. NSNeil Strauss19:35

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:35

       ... um, this phenomenal researcher that I had on the show who has done a- a cultural assessment of romantic traditions o- throughout the ages, uh, and the confluent era is what he says we're in now, which is, uh, m- we can be in a relationship for as long as you benefit me and I benefit you, and if either of us stop benefiting each other, then we go our separate ways.

   12. NSNeil Strauss19:55

       That- that's the era we're in?

   13. CWChris Williamson19:56

       That's the era that he's defined it as.

   14. NSNeil Strauss19:57

       Here's another theory on that that I heard, and I think that's interesting. I don't know about th- I don't ... I'll just- I'm thinking on that.

   15. CWChris Williamson20:03

       Mm-hmm.

   16. NSNeil Strauss20:03

       So I interviewed Stephanie Coontz who wrote a book, A History of Marriage, and her take on it is, you know, we kind of went from, you know, what you were saying, that it was this, uh, th- you know, extra workers and inheritance rights and things like that to this idea of love, to now she sees as a pick and choose thing. And I'm an ex- I guess I'm an example of that (laughs) , which is like, okay, do I want kids or not want kids? Do I want monogamy or do I want not want monogamy? Do I want- do I want kids without marriage or kids with marriage? Do I want- we sort of have this checklist and we can kind of design the thing that we want. In my case, like, okay, I'm having a child but without the marriage, and, you know, and I think so she sees it as this sort of pick and choose era.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:43

       Hmm.

   18. NSNeil Strauss20:43

       Um, and, uh, I don't know if there's a name for it or word for it, but I- that feels more right to me than the confluent thing, is like, "I'm with you as long as you serve me and I serve you, and then-"

   19. CWChris Williamson20:54

       Hmm.

   20. NSNeil Strauss20:54

       "... we move on." That almost sounds like what it was before (laughs) , when it was like, "Well, it serves me to have, uh, more- more workers and a division of- of labor."

   21. CWChris Williamson21:02

       Well, you also know that more choices don't necessarily make us happier.

   22. NSNeil Strauss21:07

       No.

   23. CWChris Williamson21:07

       Like, the paradox of choice is a big deal.

   24. NSNeil Strauss21:09

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:09

       If it's like, okay, here is the one relationship style that people go for, this is the direction that it's in, you have a village of this many people, constraints on choice actually enable satisfaction in many ways.

   26. NSNeil Strauss21:22

       Oh, totally. I mean, to think if we were- if there were arranged marriages, we're like ... and- and again, assuming there's no emotional or physical abuse, like, we'd be like, "Let's find a way to make this work." You and I with our- our minds, and I keep saying you and I 'cause I think we think similarly in terms of, like, having this learning growth mindset, be like, "Okay, I'm gonna make it work. I'm gonna adjust myself. I'm gonna see how we can work it out." So-

   27. CWChris Williamson21:41

       Hmm.

   28. NSNeil Strauss21:41

       So for sure, I think, uh, I- I agree with you on the- on the paradox of choice, uh, and, um, and that's certainly a challenge we're having now with like (laughs) , with like the cour- in the courtship world, as far as there's just so many apps, and these apps are like (laughs) throwing so many people at you that people are like (laughs) , you know, uh, pricing themself out of the game in the sense that, uh, I mean, there're just serial daters who go on dates literally all the time, and that's just what they do because they like that quick validation. Um, and then the thing you're dealing- the interesting thing we're dealing with on the apps as far as this goes, and I realize we're jumping all over the courtship/relationship/divorce, we're doing it all backwards, but, uh, but the interesting thing about apps I find so fascinating, I met one of the- this wi- I met one of the co-founders at Tinder, reached out to me, and he says, "You know, uh, part of the reason we started this app was 'cause I read The Game, and I thought, 'Oh, that's so much work.' Wouldn't it be nicer if you just alwa- or already knew when someone was attracted to you and can take it from there?"

   29. CWChris Williamson22:38

       Hmm.

   30. NSNeil Strauss22:39

       So it's- it's interesting, but I think it's- like you said, I think it- it is (laughs) a lot of admin, but the other thing is if you're hiring for a job, uh, it's tough, but if you- if you put a- a- an ad out, because the same unemployable people keep circling the job pool, right?
5. 23:10 – 31:32

   Priorities of the Black Pill Community

   1. CWChris Williamson23:10

      LMS? Do you know what that is?

   2. NSNeil Strauss23:11

      No.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:11

      Lux money status?

   4. NSNeil Strauss23:13

      Oh wait, it makes sense, okay.

   5. CWChris Williamson23:14

      So it's the, uh, triage priority list that a lot of guys in the black pill movement, uh, rely on and say is most important. Lux is most important, then money, then status.

   6. NSNeil Strauss23:25

      For men?

   7. CWChris Williamson23:26

      Yes, for men. What's your thoughts?

   8. NSNeil Strauss23:30

      Uh, my thoughts is it's like- it's a sad way to think (laughs) . It's a sad- it's a sad way to think. Um, and, uh, I- I guess, like, I'm just- I'm just kinda thinking out loud, I got a bunch of thoughts on the- the stuff you're saying. Um, but to speak back to your- to speak back to your- what- what you were saying about what it's like to be someone, I think, like, I think mostly we're all living our own stories of what it's like, and I think, like, if you choose to see the best in people, you can notice the best behavior. If you choose to see the worst in people, you're gonna notice the worst, worst behavior. And I think you're- it starts with the eyes you're seeing the world through, uh, and so down to looks, money, status (laughs) , I think that ... I mean, I think sta- I would probably ... I think they got it wrong. I- I think that- I think that there- there's, um, that ... and how would they define status, I guess I'll ask you?

   9. CWChris Williamson24:28

      I wouldn't be too sure. I would guess something like popularity.

   10. NSNeil Strauss24:32

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:32

       Um ...

   12. NSNeil Strauss24:33

       So I would- I would say it's high status behaviors. And I mean, I know this because I went and hacked it in the game, right? As a guy who is not that good-looking, um, as a guy, like, who ...... least at that time, didn't- didn't have any like, you know, wasn't someone recognized, didn't have a lot, didn't have status, didn't have money, didn't have looks, didn't have fame. We realize... And I also was a guy who, once I wrote the game, I had the people with the most looks, the most money, the most status calling me, like this fucking 5'6", big nose (laughs) , you know, dude who keeps saying "you know" and can't even articulate a really clean sentence, calling me for advice. The same shit I would... thought I was deal- alone dealing with, they were dealing with the same thing. And I think it really goes down to, like, how y- how you- you're- the story you tell yourself, more than money, looks, and status, and then how you reflect that story.

   13. CWChris Williamson25:24

       Hmm.

   14. NSNeil Strauss25:24

       As a simple example, I've seen a lot of people with money, looks, and status engage in low-status behaviors, meaning being insecure, being doubtful, not carrying themselves well, not speaking, uh, just always being worried about what others are thinking about them. And whatever they ha- whatever- whatever those gained for them, they lost it. There's a line, it was like a troubadour poem that, like, that's something about the... when they were first sort of talking about making romance and art, uh, in that era, that's like, "The eyes- the eyes go forth to seek an image which they can then recommend to the heart." And so I think the money, looks, and status, like, might get your foot in the door. But after that, it's who you are that enables you to stay in that door, unless you're dealing with someone who has similarly low self-esteem (laughs) , right? And is just out there looking for a target who has those things-

   15. CWChris Williamson26:16

       Hmm.

   16. NSNeil Strauss26:16

       ... because they've got their own wounds and they feel like that gives them safety. So let's go-

   17. CWChris Williamson26:20

       I think-

   18. NSNeil Strauss26:20

       Sorry, go ahead.

   19. CWChris Williamson26:21

       No, just w- one of the interesting reflections that a lot of friends who may be in the early 2010s were trying to do game and pick up and day game and e- stuff like that, what they realized was, they became quite disenchanted, I think, with the world of dating because they saw what they needed to do in order to be attractive to women and then realized the distance that that was from who they really were, or what they thought they needed to do in order to be attractive to women, and realized that, "I can get what I want, but what I want doesn't actually see me." And that distance between the two of, "I'm having to tell them about the midget fight outside and do my Kino escalation and ignore the p- and do all the rest of the stuff," that, I think, caused a lot of them to, uh, become very disenfranchised and disenchanted with the world of dating.

   20. NSNeil Strauss27:13

       Yeah, I think... I mean, a couple- a couple thoughts. And- and to go back, so again, these are like the stories we- we tell ourselves. Like, I think that there's a learning process and maybe you learn... I- if I look back at the game, you know, there's so many different issues around it, negative and positive and everything else, um, but I see it as a lot of sort of neurodivergent people trying to learn how to socially interact, including myself, right? (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson27:37

       Yeah.

   22. NSNeil Strauss27:37

       And so- so for me, I needed those little... I didn't know, "Just tell me what to say (laughs) ," like, how to angle my body. I was so- I was so uncomfortable around people. And then once I learned it, then I could let it go the same way, uh, you learn anything, which is sort of learning the rules and then throwing them- throwing them out.

   23. CWChris Williamson27:54

       Yeah.

   24. NSNeil Strauss27:54

       Um, so second... I got three points to make, but you're s- a- again, these topics are so interesting, right? (laughs) Uh, second thought is that... another perspective on the- on the LMS thing you said (laughs) , uh, which- which, uh, uh... The second perspective is, people don't know what they want, so they might... What they want are the things behind that. So a way to think about, uh... For example, it used to really hurt my self-esteem when I'd read personal ads and everyone wanted a guy who was six feet or, and o- and taller. How- how- how tall are you?

   25. CWChris Williamson28:30

       5'10".

   26. NSNeil Strauss28:30

       Okay, that's great, right? I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm fi- I'm 5'6", you know (laughs) ? Maybe 5'6" and a half at a stretch, right (laughs) ? And it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't height that they were looking for. What they were looking for was safety. I want to feel... When they're- when it's- when- maybe the- the... What is... let's just say, "What does money represent?" Money represents that some- some degree of, you know, security.

   27. CWChris Williamson28:51

       Competence.

   28. NSNeil Strauss28:52

       Uh, and competence. That was the word I was looking for. Exactly, competence. So- so if you look at the reasons underneath these and you embody the reasons under- underneath these, which anybody can do, the other stuff doesn't matter.

   29. CWChris Williamson29:03

       Yeah, I think that's where the sort of disenchantment came from, which was not feeling like you had the actual foundation, realizing that you could create the glitzy sort of mystique, like, "You do not need to see how much money I have. You do not need to see how much money I have." And then going, "Oh, I can get what I want by pretending to play this game, and deep down, I still don't feel like I'm worthy of it. I don't think that they see-"

   30. NSNeil Strauss29:28

       Right.
6. 31:32 – 42:36

   The Current State of Men’s Mental Health

   1. CWChris Williamson31:32

      So you, do you still run a men's group?

   2. NSNeil Strauss31:35

      Uh, I'd- I did for a while, and now I just sort of do, not really.

   3. CWChris Williamson31:39

      Okay.

   4. NSNeil Strauss31:39

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson31:39

      But you've been tangential to men's worky things?

   6. NSNeil Strauss31:42

      Yeah, I'm in a, I'm in a men's, I'm in a men's group as a, as a, uh-

   7. CWChris Williamson31:45

      Participant?

   8. NSNeil Strauss31:46

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson31:47

      Yeah. Okay. So given the fact that for the best part of 20 years now you've been, in one form or another, observing men's development, emotionally, relationally, spiritually, psychologically, therapeutically, uh, what do you make of the current state of men's friendships, mental health, masculinity, role models? It's a very common talking point. What- what's your perspective on where men are at at the moment?

   10. NSNeil Strauss32:14

       Yeah, I've he- I've heard you talk about it a bit on the podcast, but f- what's your kind of take now in a nutshell, out of curiosity?

   11. CWChris Williamson32:20

       I think that men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy that they no longer feel like they're a part of at the moment. They're being told how privileged they are and how fortunate they are to have all of these different advantages. And quite rightly, there are outliers at the top, the Elon Musks, the Bezoses of the world, the NBA players, the NFL players. Um, but I don't think that that fully captures the male experience, and I think that a lot of men don't feel like they're, they feel like their worries are being dismissed out of hand by a whining class, this sort of chattering class. Meanwhile, suicide, depression, friendlessness, loneliness, sexlessness, y- uh, uh, health, all of the problems that we know that men have, uh, and I think that it's making them feel quite embittered toward the world, because what they're saying is, "I'm suffering and you don't care, so fuck you, I'm not gonna play your game."

   12. NSNeil Strauss33:14

       Right, and now who in this story is you?

   13. CWChris Williamson33:17

       Who in that story is me?

   14. NSNeil Strauss33:18

       No, you, you don't care, when they, when you're saying you, who is the you? 'Cause this might get to the point I was go- thinking of.

   15. CWChris Williamson33:23

       The world.

   16. NSNeil Strauss33:24

       Yes, okay. So I think we have this split that we think the world is the stuff we receive, (laughs) you know, from our devices and from our computers, (clears throat) and- and that's a game we don't wanna play. So there's an unhealthy game of thinking that the voices that are loud online and the, you know, the TikToks that get fed into our feed and the sp- tweets we see are somehow the belief of the culture. And (laughs) , and, uh, and it can really mess us up. And, and I've see- I've s- I've seen you had on the podcast, uh, when we did that wonderful JK Rowling podcast, (clears throat) and there- there's somebody who like literally just, sh- she just got sucked into this, sucked into this hole and she's now living her life out of her trauma that was, a- again, I'm just really smart thinking about that- that, um, sh- you can get, you can get taken off course by just listening to these voices and thinking that the culture thinks it or people think it. It's just one- one of many stories out there but... And- and I think it can get confusing if you have less of a, of a grounded sense of self, or if it plays into your personal trauma.

   17. CWChris Williamson34:34

       Well, I think, I think the problem that a lot of people, especially young people at the moment, are facing, is that their experience is the internet, their world is the internet. You know, if you're spending between six and eight hours a day on screens online, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, uh, video games, that is more real than the real world. What do you mean the fucking real world?

   18. NSNeil Strauss34:56

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson34:56

       Like, this is my real world.

   20. NSNeil Strauss34:57

       Right.

   21. CWChris Williamson34:58

       You know, I- I'm- I'm observing it. Like, what are the, where are the countervailing narratives that push back against the fact that maybe people do care about the fact that men are suffering? Maybe people do care about the fact that, "I'm really struggling to get a job or a girlfriend," or, "I feel, I'm neurodivergent and I don't understand what to do. I- I can't hold down a- a- a- a relationship," or, "I don't have enough friends," or whatever it is. Like, if you're not going out there into the real world to see the alternate storylines-

   22. NSNeil Strauss35:23

       Yeah. A- and that, and I think that's, I think that's exactly the point, that it is very real for people. And when it becomes that real, it actually does become dangerous. And, (clears throat) and I would say that, I would say it's happening to everybody. You know what I mean? (laughs) Like, it doesn't matter what, uh, what your identity is or how you identify yourself, there's some vector of attack that is really making you feel like you're doing it wrong, you're not enough, if you step out of line you'll get slapped really, really hard. And (laughs) , uh, and- and- and really that's why it's important, going back to what you said, for me to be in a men's group or for me to be in a world, in a, in a community of a small amount of people who really, really care, who support you in the best way you can, where you can really get that feedback and you can say, "You know what? I've s- seen this stuff online and it's stressing me out in this way." So I think the point being, I mean, the, all these... There is a real problem in terms of these are not contributing to anyone's mental health. Um, and- and I think a few things are important (laughs) . I mean, one is to really try to stay out of a victim story to start, 'cause once you get into... There's that saying, and I think it's the most true thing ever, that all perpetrators perpetrate from the victim position. I mean, look at every war going on, and the main thing is, is there's a victim. I'm not saying that whatever's right or wrong, but all sides are the victim (laughs) , right?

   23. CWChris Williamson36:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. NSNeil Strauss36:58

       You know?

   25. CWChris Williamson36:58

       That's an interesting point.

   26. NSNeil Strauss36:59

       Like, whether it's with H- Hitler was a- encirclement, Putin was encirclements, right? We're surrounded by enemies, we're the vic- like, so we perpetrate from the victim position. So like-

   27. CWChris Williamson37:07

       Mm-hmm.

   28. NSNeil Strauss37:07

       ... the first step is-If you really want to get any, any, uh, reality on it to stop and, and get out of the victim story, 'cause this is when people start. That's where that leads to the hater, that makes it okay to sort of perpetrate.

   29. CWChris Williamson37:17

       Mm-hmm.

   30. NSNeil Strauss37:18

       Uh, but we can say there are all these variables around us, and how can we curate these variables so they help us? And I do think th- (laughs) these, it's insane, it's wild to me that all these companies that pretend to care about people don't have the algorithms working to actually help people versus market to them. Like, I would love something, and, and it's to the way the system works and capitalism works, but what if the algorithm was not, like, "What can we sell you?" Or, "What can we market to you?" But, like, "How can we improve your mental health?"
7. 42:36 – 50:17

   Can You ‘Game’ Love?

   1. CWChris Williamson42:36

      you think that it's possible to game love or connection in a relationship in the same way as you were able to do it with courtship?

   2. NSNeil Strauss42:44

      Um, I mean, I think, I think my short an- the short version of the answer is, any... And by the way, what are your thoughts on that, by the way? 'Cause I know we have a different thought, 'cause I noticed you switched the topic, which is fine, we can go to that. What are your thoughts on the idea that... And I can give you some... I think if s- someone reads Albert Camus's Create Dangerously, for example-

   3. CWChris Williamson42:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. NSNeil Strauss43:00

      ... he literally complains about some of the things people are... He's like, about some of the things that people feel like they're uniquely complaining about now. Like, some of the lines could com- could, could, could apply to today or, uh... I just think there's probably a set of-... a- e- everything I read, everything I read, and I can send you some of these excerpts. Like, I'll mark things that literally sound like it's people talking about-

   5. CWChris Williamson43:21

      Perennial problems.

   6. NSNeil Strauss43:22

      ... perennial problems. But what do, what are your thoughts? 'Cause I think you're, you see it in a very, we're in a unique cultural crisis of masculinity and mental health.

   7. CWChris Williamson43:30

      Well, I think fr- from the gaming level, long-term connection thing, it seems to me that more people are beginning to wake up to the fact that they probably don't want to sleep around indefinitely, and kind of be in this weird Tinder admin, like, liminal purgatory for the rest of time. That probably doesn't sound like fun. Uh, but no one really talks about love and relationships. You know, even a lot of the evolutionary psychology stuff that I've dug into, and I know that you've looked at as well, it speaks in a very sort of sterile, transactional way, its mate value and its offering for status and protection and resources over fecundity and age and fertility and blah, blah, blah. Uh, and no one ever talks about the actual felt experience of being in love, or-

   8. NSNeil Strauss44:15

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson44:15

      ... or, or what it's like to be attached to somebody else and be dependent on them and, and, and be in union with them and, and, and do things that make each other feel good and, and stuff like that. It's always, it's always a very dispassionate look at how, what, what's the ledger? What's the balance sheet of this? Uh, and at least as far as I can see, I think that you can quite easily game attraction, but it is much more difficult to game connection.

   10. NSNeil Strauss44:41

       And when you say no one talks about love, you mean like ... What do you mean by that?

   11. CWChris Williamson44:45

       Well, look at the dating advice-

   12. NSNeil Strauss44:46

       I mean, listen to-

   13. CWChris Williamson44:46

       ... that you see that's online.

   14. NSNeil Strauss44:47

       Right.

   15. CWChris Williamson44:48

       Like, how much of the dating advice talks about, "This is what it feels like when you're head over heels besotted with a guy or girl partner, and this is how you can handle the emotions that come up, of jealousy and uncertainty and anxiety and fear of being left," and all of these things. Uh, no one ever wants to talk about that because it seems in a modern world where we, you know, we can predict the weather and we can send rockets into space and we've conquered bacteria and we've got a theory of disease and we've got AI, love kind of almost feels like God. It's sort of this very unsophisticated, wishy-washy, uh-

   16. NSNeil Strauss45:25

       Are you talking about kind of love or relationships, just in your case? You're talking about-

   17. CWChris Williamson45:30

       Both. Both-

   18. NSNeil Strauss45:30

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson45:30

       ... I think. I, I just don't think that there's a massive amount of discussion about love or relationships, um, uh, uh, and how to build them together in any, i- in a phenomenologically, uh, consistent way.

   20. NSNeil Strauss45:44

       Yeah. I g- I guess, in my ... By the way, in my, in my mind, I actually think there's more out there on relationships than courtship. And I guess it maybe just depends on what silo-

   21. CWChris Williamson45:53

       Mm-hmm.

   22. NSNeil Strauss45:53

       ... you're in and what, what you're being fed.

   23. CWChris Williamson45:55

       Where's your echo chamber? Where's mine?

   24. NSNeil Strauss45:55

       You know? Yeah. What, what's your, what's your echo chamber? Because, uh, because, like, a l- a lot of people out there are hurting over relationships. They're hurting over a past relationship they were in, where they're just traumatized from the experience, and, uh, they're hurting over one they're in and they just can't get out of. They're hurting one that, over one that's over, should be over, but this person is still in the court system fighting them for their child. They're hurting because they dated a narcissist or, you know, a sociopath, or someone with borderline who put them through a living hell and gaslit them and drove them. So there's so much ... There's more pain out there from people trying to figure out the relationship stuff, and consequently, I think more, uh, people looking for, to books and podcasts and experts, and healing around that, at least in, in my silo. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson46:50

       Mm. Where does the healing-

   26. NSNeil Strauss46:53

       But then the other side of what you're talking about is, uh, then there's a flip side of it, which is there's a part of, there's a love being marketed to us through movies and pop songs that is also not realistic to what our expectations of it, you know, should be. That, um ... (clears throat) So maybe I can think of your question another way, which is we're, we're seeing the horror stories and we're seeing the fantasies. You're smiling 'cause I'm agreeing, because we're agreeing, right? (laughs) But, but, but where, where are we seeing, like, what's, what really should be a healthy expectation of what a relationship is like? Right? Which i- which means that, you know, a relationship with zero conflict is a warning sign. It's not a great relationship, right? (laughs) That means someone is ... That's usually what, what they call a parallel relationship, two people living separate lives under one roof. It's okay to have, you know, again, as long as there's no emotional or physical abuse. It's, uh, h- conflict is good. To me, a healthy relationship is how quickly you recover from a conflict and truly get back to where you were before it. That's a healthy relationship.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:57

       I've heard you say you shouldn't be using signs to decide what to do with your heart.

   28. NSNeil Strauss48:02

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson48:02

       And I do think a lot about how much people are trying to rationally logic themselves into a effective, satisfying relationship.

   30. NSNeil Strauss48:13

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah. (laughs) I think it's true, and I, I think, like, it's, it's fascinating too. The other side of it is people who really have a long list of what they want, and then (laughs) they just go for the same broken shit every time, (laughs) and the list goes away, and ... Or, or, or they think, they think they've found that thing they want that meets their list, but that was the mask and they end up in the same horror story they were before.
8. 50:17 – 58:45

   Advice to People Failing to Connect

   1. NSNeil Strauss50:17

   2. CWChris Williamson50:17

      Not at all. I-

   3. NSNeil Strauss50:18

      Does that make sense?

   4. CWChris Williamson50:18

      What would you say to the people who do continue to find themselves repeating the same patterns, whether it's their perspective of the world, their s- perspective of relationships, the kinds of people that they are attracted to or attract? What are the first places that those people should look?

   5. NSNeil Strauss50:35

      Yeah, I think there's, I think there's two sides of it, right? There, or maybe there's three sides of it, right? In a relationship, there's three entities. There's you, there's the other person, and then there's the relationship itself as a third entity. Right? So I think we can look at, I think we can kind of look at all three of those. So one side is understand, again, like attachment theory is so trendy right now that, that I don't even need to talk about it 'cause everyone knows it, but when I first talked about it, (laughs) like it was really new stuff. But understanding that we're wired a certain way because we love what's familiar. That's the easiest way to think about stuff. We love what's familiar, so consequently, um, if you had a narcissistic parent, you'll, you'll, you'll probably gonna try to meet some form of narcissist and then try to get seen by them, and it'll lead you to immense frustration. Or you had an abandoning parent, you're gonna choose somebody who is, uh, not emotionally there or not physically there or replicating that for you in some way, and you're gonna try to ch- heal your childhood through trying to get them to be there, to be seen through all these things. And I think, like, so step one is heal yourself instead of trying to expect someone else to heal you. So that goes against, what was that word you said about the relationships where we use each other?

   6. CWChris Williamson51:49

      Confluent.

   7. NSNeil Strauss51:49

      Confluent (laughs) relationships. Um, so, so step one is, like, um, what's that classic book on self-esteem that Ayn Rand, like, uh, Nathaniel Brandon? Uh, he really said about we attract people who are at our level of self-esteem. So whenever someone's ... By the way, I hope I'm not throwing too many ideas-

   8. CWChris Williamson52:08

      No, no.

   9. NSNeil Strauss52:08

      ... all over the place at once, so. So whenever someone ... (laughs) I just love these subjects, they're so fun to talk about. Uh, so whenever somebody is saying, complaining about their partner, in my brain I'm always thinking, "You're dating them or you're married to them." (laughs) Like, what way and which way are you an equal that's not that your partner's ... you're so emotionally mature and your partner's so emotionally immature? You're dating each other. You're attracting your own level of that. Maybe you're the flip side of the same coin. But it's the same coin. So the first thing is raising your own level of, like, emotional health, uh, healing those childhood pant- pat- patterns and wounds, uh, working on the, uh, um, self-esteem piece. Like you wanna attract better people, just, like, literally become a better person, (laughs) right? All those li- that list you have of everything that you need in a relationship, go look at yourself with that list, and you embody those and you'll find that person. You know, I love Byron Katie's four questions, and the best part about them is by- Byron Katie has those four questions where you can challenge your beliefs. But then the fifth thing is the turnaround, and that's changed my life. And here's, like, a shortcut for using it. If I ever tell myself a story, "That person's annoying," the turnaround is, and I can list the reasons why they're annoying, I say, "I'm annoying," then I can think of all the reasons I'm (laughs) annoying, right? I can think that, "My partner's never there for me." What are the ways in which I'm not there for the partner? So if I turn things around, my accusations of other people to myself, I can usually see, we can all see usually, but I can usually see I'm not, I'm just as imperfect. So first step is with yourself. But the challenge in that is, (laughs) is, um, uh, the best way to learn about how to, uh, about a, how to have a healthy relationship is to be in one, so there's tools and skills you can have in a relationship that you can work on it. So if you're in a relationship that again, where you're not dating someone who is really toxic or toxic for you, uh, is to, like, work on your own reactions. Like literally, relationship is a system, right? And so if you change the piece of the system you can control, yourself, the whole system changes. And I can't tell you how many times, (clears throat) in my experience and in other people's experience, that if I change how I react to things and just respond instead of reacting, if I change some part of myself, the whole relationship changes. And all that, all that energy ... Sorry, man, I've got so much to say on this one.

   10. CWChris Williamson54:23

       No, no, no, I'm enjoying it. Honestly.

   11. NSNeil Strauss54:26

       Okay. (laughs) Okay. All that energy people put into changing their partner never works. It never works. It just creates resentment, and you're reenacting a parental figure they had when they were younger that criticized them, right? They signed up for that. And so if you just take that energy out, you work on yourself, you change, your partner will automatically change. Like, they'll just change 'cause the system changes. They'll say, "Oh, what are you doing? You seem happier. What's, what's going on for you? I ... Y- y- you're in that men, in that men's group. Maybe I should be in this women's group," or, "You're doing therapy? Who? Maybe I should get therapy too." Like, fuck, man. (laughs) Just, like, it's all goes back to, like ... Yeah, it all goes back to, like, the better you make yourself, the better relationships you'll be in and the better the world around you will start to look.

   12. CWChris Williamson55:11

       What are the modalities that you've found best for unpicking these patterns?

   13. NSNeil Strauss55:16

       Yeah. I think there's a, there's a, (clears throat) formula that I think of. Your eyebrow's raised, I love you. This is like podcast college. "Wait, there's a formula?" Okay, so, (laughs) so it's the, it's these three things, and I think these work together. Um, (clears throat) ...So people always talk about therapy doesn't work, but I think they're talking about talk therapy. And I agree that talk therapy is not great for a change, because your problems were developed before you had, um, the intellectual capacity. They, the wounds happened emotionally. And so I think we need to heal them. It's best to heal them emotionally. So I think the formula is, is these three things. So one is deep, intensive, uh, deep, intensive experiences that are whether they're workshops or things where you're really, really unpacking your wounds, and you're just a puddle of tears on the ground. So, so some container where you can block off the outside world and all that social media you're talking about (laughs) and really break, rip off the Band-Aid and, and just be, uh-

   14. CWChris Williamson56:15

       What are some examples of that?

   15. NSNeil Strauss56:16

       Sure. My favorite that, I'll say my favorite, the one that worked for me... And by the way, people's thing they say the best is usually the first thing they did that really worked. So, so my bias and the first thing that really worked for me was the, at the Meadows, which is, uh, a treatment center in Arizona. They have a program called the Survivors Program, and it's like an exorcism of your childhood wounds. Like, you sit there in a chair like this, and I literally felt like an exorcism. Um, and I remember leaving the therapy, and for the first time, I'm like, "Fuck, this is who I am without all that shit, without all that baggage I was carrying from Mom and Dad and all my upbringing." Like, "Fuck, this is who I really I am." And then, of course, you go back to your regular environment and the same shit happenings, and you start having the same response, but now, like, you have a target to get back to. People love the Hoffman Process. I think the Hoffman Process is, is very, is amazing as well. Um, the difference is, it's, it's, this, Meadows is a, you know, a s- psychiatric facility, and you're getting one-on-one work. Uh, the Hoffman Process is group work, but it's also amazing. Um, but, uh, but here's the, here's the thing. I think anything you do where the person and yourself both have the intention of really getting better, and it's not a cult, (laughs) um, is gonna work for you.

   16. CWChris Williamson57:35

       Must ensure it is not a cult.

   17. NSNeil Strauss57:37

       Here's how you know it's a cult. It's a cult if part of the treatment involves you signing up other people for the work. Simple rule of thumb. I've been, I've... 'Cause I do so much self-improvement stuff, I went to these ones that were culty.

   18. CWChris Williamson57:49

       Mm-hmm.

   19. NSNeil Strauss57:50

       It was amazing to see how the brainwashing worked and how effective it was.

   20. CWChris Williamson57:52

       Mm-hmm.

   21. NSNeil Strauss57:53

       They, like, create these loops within the self-improvement teachings that they then pull the strings on months or years later that get you to follow it like a robot. It's unbelievable.

   22. CWChris Williamson58:02

       How interesting. Um-

   23. NSNeil Strauss58:03

       But here, well, let me add one more thought. Sorry, man. (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson58:05

       No, no, no, keep going. We've got two more stages to get through.

   25. NSNeil Strauss58:07

       Okay, (laughs) so, so this therapy at the Meadows is called post-induction therapy, speaking of cults. And the idea is that your childhood is like a hypnotic induction. Your childhood is a, is a cult. A nice, uh... Is that your... I gotta show your drink, by the way.

   26. CWChris Williamson58:20

       Get it, get it in there.

   27. NSNeil Strauss58:21

       Yes, okay. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson58:21

       You need a little bit more energy.

   29. NSNeil Strauss58:22

       Um, this is, this is how you get these three-hour podcasts.

   30. CWChris Williamson58:25

       That's correct.
9. 58:45 – 1:08:00

   Three Steps to Resolve Your Past

   1. CWChris Williamson58:45

      of... Was it, like, acquisition and pruning that happens in the brain? I've heard you-

   2. NSNeil Strauss58:49

      Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson58:49

      ... you talk about that before.

   4. NSNeil Strauss58:51

      Yeah, so I'll tell you what. I'll hit the two other things-

   5. CWChris Williamson58:53

      Yep.

   6. NSNeil Strauss58:53

      ... and then we'll talk about-

   7. CWChris Williamson58:53

      Come back, come back to that.

   8. NSNeil Strauss58:54

      ... 0000000000000.

   9. CWChris Williamson58:54

      Okay, so first one, it... Just to round out that first stage of your three-step process to becoming the ultimate human-

   10. NSNeil Strauss59:00

       First stage, 3 stages. Okay, deep intensive workshop. Like, you know, just one or two a year where you're just emotionally kind of... Where, where you're going through some sort of emotionally purging experience.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:08

       And what, what are the principles of that modality? That it's something which is emotionally intensive?

   12. NSNeil Strauss59:14

       Yeah, and multiple days.

   13. CWChris Williamson59:16

       Yep.

   14. NSNeil Strauss59:17

       And, um, in just a sort of safe container.

   15. CWChris Williamson59:20

       Understood. Okay, there's one.

   16. NSNeil Strauss59:21

       Um, meaning that simply you're just trying to let, let... And, and then as everyone who's ever been to an amazing seminar or workshop knows, you, you get that high, post-seminar high, (laughs) and then you go back and do the same old shit, right? So step two is maintenance, meaning we get this change, and we get... Our brain gets set right. And we go back to our world, and the same stuff's just happening. The brain starts to go askew again. So I want to talk about the men-... So, uh, some sort of weekly accountability so you can just, uh, keep being reminded of what direction your, your, your, your boat should be pointed in. Here's an awesome thing about these men's groups, and, like, I really, um... And I'm not saying, "Go on..." I'm actually not saying, "Go on Instagram and find somebody who's starting a men's group," (clears throat) "you know, and join that." What I'm actually saying, when I, when I say, "Men's group," I s-... What I did was I took five or six people about at my level of, uh, of work, some people you know, um, and, uh, and we're at the same place. Maybe we're have, have kids or marriage, divorce, whatever it is. And then we all chipped in for one therapist. So this is really affordable. It's cheaper than individual therapy. And group therapy has been, like, studied to be more effective, but what's amazing about group therapy is I can sit... Say you're the therapist, and you have a point of view. I can just say, "Well, you know, he's wrong. He doesn't know me." Like, "That's just his opinion and how he was lear-... How he was taught." But if it's you and four other peers who I recommend and they're all saying I'm wrong, like, "I don't think you guys are right, but you're all saying it, so there must be something there for me to explore."

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:58

       Nowhere to hide.

   18. NSNeil Strauss1:00:58

       Yeah, nowhere to hide, and with a, with a group, between your weekly sessions with a therapist, you can stay in touch with the group.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:01:05

       Mm-hmm.

   20. NSNeil Strauss1:01:06

       So I strongly recommend it. It's, it's, it's, uh... And you need the therapist there just for the accountability so you don't go off on some...

   21. CWChris Williamson1:01:12

       Just becomes a bro evening.

   22. NSNeil Strauss1:01:14

       Yeah, becomes a bro evening, or you just stay-

   23. CWChris Williamson1:01:15

       Oh!

   24. NSNeil Strauss1:01:15

       ... reinforcing some unhealthy behavior.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

       In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. You might have heard me say that I took my testosterone from 495 to 1,006 last year. Two of the supplements I used throughout that were for Sadoja Agrestis...... and tongkat ali. Hey. I first heard Dr. Andrew Huberman talk about the really impressive effects, which sound great until you realize that most supplements don't actually contain what they're advertising. Momentous make the only NSF certified Fadogia agrestis and tongkat ali on the planet. That means that they are tested so rigorously that even Olympic athletes can use them, and that is why I partnered with them. So, if you are not performing in the gym or the bedroom, or you just want to improve your testosterone naturally, Fadogia agrestis and tongkat ali are two great places to start. Best of all, there is a 30-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it completely risk free, use it, and if you do not like it for any reason, they will give you your money back. You can get up to a 32% discount on everything sitewide with the code MODERNWISDOM by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernwisdom. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com/modernwisdom, and MODERNWISDOM at checkout.

   26. NSNeil Strauss1:02:25

       Big change workshops.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

       Yep.

   28. NSNeil Strauss1:02:27

       Th-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:02:27

       Around about one to two a year?

   30. NSNeil Strauss1:02:29

       Uh, yeah. You know, or for whatever, 1 or 2 a year.
10. 1:08:00 – 1:19:05

    Asking Why Emotions Arise

    1. CWChris Williamson1:08:00

       that that arises and step in. This is something I've been thinking about more. I'm doing my first sort of big pass through therapy, um, and I'd done a lot of time doing mindfulness.

    2. NSNeil Strauss1:08:08

       Right.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:08:09

       But (clears throat) I actually found that a strong mindfulness practice caused me to let go of emotions before I actually looked at where they came from.

    4. NSNeil Strauss1:08:20

       Right.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:20

       That ability to sort of notice something arises and go, "Okay, just release and allow," that's fine. And I was very, very practiced with that. It feels, to me it feels like windscreen wipers. So my practice, uh, from Shinzen Young is, uh, see, hear, feel. So I would swipe left to do see, I would swipe right to do hear, and I would swipe down to do feel.

    6. NSNeil Strauss1:08:37

       Ooh.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:08:37

       And that's the way it would feel in my mind. It's like nothing's happening, right? It's just the way that I'd come to kind of-

    8. NSNeil Strauss1:08:43

       I love that.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:08:43

       ... feel it.

    10. NSNeil Strauss1:08:44

        I love that. That's really good.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:08:45

        Uh-

    12. NSNeil Strauss1:08:45

        That's really good.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:08:46

        And, um, what I noticed and what I've noticed since, since spending a bit more time trying to integrate emotions and thinking about where patterns come from and, and stuff like that, is that the mindfulness practice was fantastic at making me more effective. But because it allowed me... The, the emotions sort of flowed through me like a, a filter or something like that. It, there was, uh, less resistance that just came out, came up and went out. I never asked the question, "Why does this emotion continue to come up?"

    14. NSNeil Strauss1:09:12

        That's it, that's it. And I, I love what you said (clears throat) and this speaks to like it doesn't actually matter what you do. So whether you're doing reparenting or you're doing see, hear, feel. Is that right?

    15. CWChris Williamson1:09:21

        Mm-hmm. Yep.

    16. NSNeil Strauss1:09:21

        See, hear, feel?

    17. CWChris Williamson1:09:21

        Yeah.

    18. NSNeil Strauss1:09:22

        Um, what you're doing is you're widening the space between the stimulus and your response.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:09:26

        Correct. Mindfulness gap.

    20. NSNeil Strauss1:09:27

        Right, right.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:09:28

        Yes.

    22. NSNeil Strauss1:09:29

        So, so whatever version of that you do or whatever, that's why like people argue over what method's better. (laughs) Like, literally any method that works is good enough, right? For you. If it's working, just keep doing it.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:09:38

        Mm-hmm.

    24. NSNeil Strauss1:09:39

        So what you're saying is a great example of the tools. So the three steps then are the deep intensive experiences.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:09:44

        Mm-hmm.

    26. NSNeil Strauss1:09:45

        Uh, the, um, weekly or regular accountability, and the tools in the moment.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:09:51

        W- give me one more tool that you've found that's been high value for you.

    28. NSNeil Strauss1:09:56

        Couple other tools I love. One is, is, uh, the first tool, uh, one is another version of, of widen the space between stimulus and response, is like if, if I can recognize... So I feel like any time I get, any time something goes wrong is like an opportunity to learn about yourself. So I can recognize that if I'm starting to get, uh, anxious about something or upset about something, (clears throat) especially if I'm in a conversation or dialogue with someone I feel may be misunderstood, right? Often maybe I'll feel, might feel misunderstood. And then I'll tr- I'll keep m- trying to drive the point into them to make sure they get it. (laughs) And all it does is irritate them and then I feel more misunderstood, and then I get more like, you know, (laughs) abrasive with trying to make this point and it's just a horrible sequence. So I can see, oh, I'm feeling this sort of, uh, like tightness in my heart and this, um, and sort of this electricity to my wrist, and that's my sign, before my mind even knows it, that I'm starting to get anxious about feeling misunderstood. So then what I'll do is I'll just, whatever I'm at, I'll just pause and I'll take a break for one second. Say I'm on the phone, I'll say, "Hold on one second, I'll be right back." I'll walk away. I'll, I say correct the lie, I'll correct the lie with the truth, "Hey, like you're not being misunderstood. They probably understand you and it's, it's all good. (laughs) Just like, maybe understand them." Cool. Then I pick up the phone, "Sorry about that, so what were you saying?" Or if I'm in a conver- say I'm in the conversation here, I'm like a, I step away to go to the restroom.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:11:20

        Mm-hmm.

    30. NSNeil Strauss1:11:20

        Let's say I'm in a conversation I can't leave, like we're here in this podcast, right? Um, I think to my head, I'll just switch my position and I'll think, "New moment" and over here, I'm just, there's a new moment over here-

Episode duration: 1:48:48