The Truth About Women & Relationships - Neil Strauss, World's #1 Pickup Artist

Chris Williamson 0:00 Talk to me about your trajectory of perspective on relationships over the last few years. What's the- what's the story arc that you've gone through there?

Neil Strauss 0:10 Yeah. I mean, there's ... I have, like, my private story arc and a public story arc, and they're kind of the same. And so I'll just tell the arc, uh, the best I can, which is basically (laughs) ... Basically what I do is I just try to... I'm do- I do the same thing you do, I just try to figure out things in life. And when I get stuck, I just do all the research and talk to all the people, as well as have all the experience that I need to to learn. And so the first place I got stuck in my life was just dating. And as a guy who was writing for The New York Times and Rolling Stone about music and around on tour with rock bands, around all kinds of wild decadence, I felt like I was a guy on the outside watching everyone else have all the fun. So the first book, obviously... Not the first book, I think it's my, was my third or fourth, but The Game was probably the most infamous one, which is me trying to figure out dating (laughs) and being in this world of, uh, uh... and, and being fascinated by this world of these pickup artists and the- all the social implications of it at that, at that time. Uh, and so that was me trying to solve the problem, let's say, of courtship in my life. And then great, dating was a lot easier to solve than the next problem, which is relationships, right? People complain about their dating issues. When it comes to relationships, they don't just complain, they really, uh, struggle, grieve, go into- into, uh, locked boxes of stress and trauma and confusion that almost no one else can enter 'cause... It's fun to hear people talk about their bad dates, but talking about a rat- bad relationship, most friends after one or two or three years when someone experience the same problem actually get tired and this person's stuck in the situation. I mean, it's- it's- it's tough. It's easy to stop dating s- someone you're... You have a bad date, you have a b- date with someone who's horrible, you just, uh, send them a polite text or I guess ghost them, right? (laughs) People do that. But if you have a bad relationship, how do you get out of that? And, uh, and does the other person accept your boundary that you want to leave? Usually they don't. Usually as soon as they feel abandonment, they start chasing you and not letting you leave, even if- even if they don't want to be in the relationship, that rejection is so much to them. So- so The Game was the easy book. (laughs) And then f- figuring out the relationship part, and especially looking at my own issues in relationships and my own patterns and taking a tough look at myself with relationships and not even what drew me to the game and those pickup artists, that was like the next step. So that was the next step of the journey and that's the next book. And maybe the third book is- is, uh... So ended up through everything I learned, having a awesome marriage, have a father of a eight-year-old, a nine-year-old now, and it's like the best, and I'm also have like an amazing divorce (laughs) . So meaning that I'm like best friends with my son's mom, I feel like we really are like ama- I love co-parenting, uh, and- and looking at the other side of- of, uh, how do you... And I guess it's such an amazing divorce that we're actually having another child together with my son's mom.

Chris Williamson 3:24 I-

Chris Williamson 3:25 Your ex-wife and you are no longer together in the traditional sense, but are having another child because of how well you get on as parents?

Neil Strauss 3:38 I think, like, we're great co-parents, and I think we get along wonderfully and, uh, and- and ready to sort of take that journey together in a new way.

Chris Williamson 3:49 Wow.

Neil Strauss 3:50 Interesting, right?

Chris Williamson 3:51 That is... Th- I've never heard of that.

Neil Strauss 3:55 No, I know. It's funny, I saw your face when I said that. And, uh-

Chris Williamson 3:58 I've spent a lot of time researching mating behavior, and that's the first time... I mean, what a- what an irrational way to look at something as... So is- i- is your perspective around your previous marriage, "We work as co-parents, but not necessarily as partners"?

Neil Strauss 4:15 Ex- exactly. The romantic and sexual energy may not be there, but- but we're really-

Chris Williamson 4:20 How are you going to make the baby?

Neil Strauss 4:21 The baby's already made. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:23 Okay. How did you make the baby?

Neil Strauss 4:25 So- so- so it's about four months. Um, (laughs) I'll t- I'll tell you-

Chris Williamson 4:28 The old school way?

Neil Strauss 4:29 Yeah. (laughs) I'll tell you about that. I'll tell you about... Let me- let me- let me backtrack for one second, and then I'll tell you- I'll tell you how we got there. It's- it- it's- it's... Uh, people are gonna have s- people may have s- it'll be interesting. I'll tell you, though. I'm- I'm happy to share. Um, but let- let me s- let me talk about the divorce for one second, because like I'm... Again, I'm always fascinated by what is happening in my life now versus what already happened. And I thought about this a lot, and I haven't heard people talk about this, but learning everything I did about trauma, uh, divorce, I mean, I think it can be... It's tough if you're a child of a divorce where the parents are fighting with each other, but it's also tough if you're a child of parents who aren't divorced and fighting with each other. You just don't want parents fighting with each other, in front of you at least. Um, so when we got divorced, I thought, "Well, how do I make this a positive experience in that person's life?" Meaning our child's life. And I thought, "He needs a couple things." One is- one is that it has to be a value add to his life, not something being taken away. So what does that mean? So for him, he had a friend who recently moved to a new house and he thought that house was cool, so I said, "How would you like two houses?" Instead of just one house, you're gonna get two houses now. And I remember we dropped him off, me and his mom brought him together to the new house, uh, and I remember he got out of the car and he was so excited. He was just like so happy, I'm like, "Shit, we're doing this right." Like, I think the mistake... And again, there's nothing wrong with it, people do what they- the best they can, is when you sit the child down, you prepare them for bad news. It doesn't have to be bad news. It's great news if it's- if you're both happy, uh, which isn't always the case. Then now the second thing I think you need besides a value add is no interruption of service.... and the service being the love of- of both parents. And so, that has to continue or get bigger, and this can be a positive experience in a child's life. So, so (laughs) given that we, uh, feel like we have a great child and- and raised it well, um, I guess you want me to talk about th- this part? (laughs) So, so, uh, so, um, I'm cool, I'm cool with what... (laughs) I haven't- I haven't talked about it, but, uh, so-

Chris Williamson 6:38 (coughs)

Neil Strauss 6:38 ... so we thought, y- yeah, let's have a child the regular way, but literally, m- maybe the divorce was maybe five, six, five years ago. We actually celebrate our de-anniversary. Like-

Chris Williamson 6:48 (laughs)

Neil Strauss 6:50 ... this is all gonna be about divorce. (laughs) You're like, "You're gonna talk about relationships and dating," and now we're just talking about divorce for the whole time.

Chris Williamson 6:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Strauss 6:55 But, uh, yeah, we celebrated our de-anniversary, meaning that I think getting out of a relationship is harder than getting into one.

Chris Williamson 7:02 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 7:02 Right? And so we should celebrate the fact that we're able to, like, compassionately get out of it, so last- last night was our de-anniversary, so we celebrated together with- with- with- with our son. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:14 Wow. Okay.

Neil Strauss 7:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:16 Talk to me about how you made the baby.

Neil Strauss 7:17 Okay, got it. I know. Uh, I've been crossing-

Chris Williamson 7:19 I'm gonna k- I'm gonna keep pushing you.

Neil Strauss 7:20 Yes. (laughs) So yeah, so- so, um, this is the craziest thing, uh, (laughs) I feel like I'm gonna get some shit over this but I'm- I'm fine with it. It is- it is what it is. Or maybe I won't, I don't know. But I feel like there's people out there with a certain narrative.

Chris Williamson 7:32 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 7:33 And nothing I do will fit anyone's narrative. (laughs) That's kind of the pattern of my life. But, uh, so we thought, well, we'll just have the baby the old-fashioned way, and then it just kind of felt weird. Like, literally, she's like my sister. We're literally, like, best friends and that... And so it just felt, it just felt weird doing that with your best friend or your sister. Sometimes that energy is just not there. And so, uh, so- so syringe in the bathroom (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 8:01 Okay.

Neil Strauss 8:02 ... with a- with a-

Chris Williamson 8:03 Yep.

Neil Strauss 8:03 ... little cup.

Chris Williamson 8:04 Yep.

Neil Strauss 8:04 She- th- she went in the other room and then syringed it up.

Chris Williamson 8:07 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 8:09 One shot, and it took. (laughs) It was the craziest thing. It was like-

Chris Williamson 8:12 Wow, you went turkey baster.

Neil Strauss 8:14 We really went turkey baster in just one time. (laughs) Just once.

Chris Williamson 8:17 You're terrifyingly fertile. Stay away from me.

Neil Strauss 8:19 Yes.

Chris Williamson 8:20 I don't want to be pregnant.

Neil Strauss 8:21 Yeah. (laughs) No-

Chris Williamson 8:21 Don't make me. (laughs)

Neil Strauss 8:22 ... exactly, exactly. But- but it's cra- but it made me realize how easy it would be for somebody to just get themselves pregnant with your stuff.

Chris Williamson 8:38 Oh, yeah. I mean, do not disagree. I think, uh, there's even now a- a... there was a video going around on TikTok about how to sort of entrap a man, like, what you can do. And I always- I'm always so skeptical about stuff on TikTok 'cause I think, "Is this just a conspiracy of a conspiracy?" Like, is this someone trying to go viral by saying something that's absolutely insane?

Neil Strauss 8:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:58 Um, but yeah, that's definitely a risk. That is... I mean, you managed to do it with one- one cup and a turkey baster, so-

Neil Strauss 9:06 Yeah, so someone could easily...

Chris Williamson 9:07 Yep.

Neil Strauss 9:08 ... easily- easily... I j- I just didn't realize 'til that moment how-

Chris Williamson 9:12 Perilous.

Neil Strauss 9:13 How, uh, yeah. How, yeah, that we should take care with stuff.

Chris Williamson 9:18 So, talk to me about the common thread through all of those experiences, going from-

Neil Strauss 9:25 Thank you for changing the subject, by the way. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:26 Of course.

Neil Strauss 9:27 Yes. That's appre- we really- we-

Chris Williamson 9:28 No, no, no, no.

Neil Strauss 9:28 ... truly went out on a tangent.

Chris Williamson 9:29 Not at all. But you have- you have Inception, the game, Pick Up, it's sort of courtship and- and- and dating and validation and- and sort of casual stuff. Then you have The Truth, you have, um, integration, relationships, love, unpacking trauma, then a pivot out of that into sort of non-monogamy, then a pivot back into that, then the pivot into divorce. Like, is there a-

Neil Strauss 9:53 Yeah, I see s- so I see nothing as a pivot-

Chris Williamson 9:55 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 9:55 ... or as a brand.

Chris Williamson 9:56 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 9:57 And- and meaning, and by the way, in between those, I did a book which feels like tragically relevant now called Emergency, which is really about learning s- the other skill of survival. Like, when the sh- shit hits the fan, uh, there's even an acronym for it in that survivalist community, right? Uh, when the shit hits the fan, what do you do? How do you save yourself? How do you save your family? So the other piece probably between these things was realizing that, well, you- you want to be able to protect your family-

Chris Williamson 10:25 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 10:26 ... and you want to be able to be safe and you wanna be, uh, you don't want to be a victim of history. And history is happening right now.

Chris Williamson 10:33 Mm.

Neil Strauss 10:33 So it's really about how do you, uh, do your best to be self-sufficient and not let... not depend on the system?

Chris Williamson 10:40 We both know Tucker Max, who is ultimate doomer, prepper, optimism man-

Neil Strauss 10:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:46 ... only maybe 30 miles from here with a million rounds of ammunition. Um, th- y- yeah, what is the- what was the common-

Neil Strauss 10:52 So the thread-

Chris Williamson 10:53 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 10:53 ... the thread is y- the thread is literally just like, there are stages of life that we go through, and I'm just doing my best to figure 'em out when, like, the way I was raised or what I learned or what I know don't hold up for me. So if I get stuck, I make it a project, and if the project's successful, I make it a book.

Chris Williamson 11:11 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 11:12 And so there are some projects I started that either they weren't successful or I just lost interest and didn't take 'em all the way, or I didn't get a big- big epiphany at the end and then I didn't make that a book or it didn't feel like worth sharing.

Chris Williamson 11:23 Hmm. Was it difficult or has it been difficult for you to let go of the past versions of you, those previous identities? You know, The Game was such a sort of cultural moment that you're now the pick up guy, even though you were kind of a, like, um, you were doing anthropological observation basically of this world, stepping in, observing what was happening, coming back and telling everyone. How difficult is it to let go of the previous versions of you, especially when the public has an expectation?

Neil Strauss 11:55 I mean, super easy for me, hard for other people.

Chris Williamson 11:59 Why?

Neil Strauss 12:00 Because, like, it's done. Like, like literally, if I- if I have an experience and then I write a book about it, that's my best- that's my best telling and my best version of that experience, and then I move on to the rest of it and move on with the rest of my life. I think it's funny that it's surprising.... at all. Because how it would be a tragedy to get stuck in a version of who I was and what I thought was right 20 years ago, or whatever it is-

Chris Williamson 12:25 Hm.

Neil Strauss 12:25 ... and then keep marketing that. I really feel that people try to brand themselves, (laughs) right? They're the, they're the... I- I was even looking at one of your podcasts, there was, like, someone who was the, the- they were always the something-something, right? (laughs) The- the- the, uh, the Hormone Wizard or the-

Chris Williamson 12:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Strauss 12:45 ... Decorating Guru or- or the-

Chris Williamson 12:47 The Fat Loss Magician.

Neil Strauss 12:48 Exactly. Exactly. And then, like, but, uh, there's a great saying from Leonard Cohen, the- the songwriter, and he was speaking at, uh, at a music festival and the music festival was, like, just- it was going off the rail. It was just- the- the- this- k- kids were going off the rails and- and, uh, and- and very similar, our culture always goes through these moments. There's, you know, right now where- where- where, uh, we're- we have the- there's always these amazing moments and he goes... He said this great quote, he said, "Those who are married to the spirit of their generation are doomed to become widows in the next."

Chris Williamson 13:22 What does that mean to you?

Neil Strauss 13:23 What that mean- what that means is if you- you just plant your flag and you say, "This is it," guess what? You keep evolving. The world keeps evolving.

Chris Williamson 13:31 Hm.

Neil Strauss 13:31 Life keeps evolving, and you're stuck in the past. And I've certainly sat there with people who had a big health message that they were really tied to, who no longer believed it, who no longer ate that way, but because they have a certain following that expects that, they keep doing that. What happens is you get a split in yourself.

Chris Williamson 13:48 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 13:49 Right? And you're saying one thing (laughs) while doing another, and that- and I think ultimately the goal at the end of the day is to just like yourself, (laughs) right? And you- you're not gonna like yourself deep down if you're a hypocrite.

Chris Williamson 14:03 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 14:03 Or- or if you're still saying something you no longer believe or have moved on from 'cause you're... Like, so much of what you talk about, so much of what your guests talk about is just having freedom of choice, and if you're- if you do one thing that's successful and then your audience expects that and then you start catering to them, like, you're- you're not free. It's a horrible way to live.

Chris Williamson 14:21 Yeah. And you will begin to resent the people around you as well, or the audience that you have.

Neil Strauss 14:25 And it doesn't work. And it doesn't work.

Chris Williamson 14:27 And people can see through it.

Neil Strauss 14:28 I always say, like, your audience only expects what you've done before 'cause they don't know what you're gonna do next. So they just- they don't know that, and so surprise them and give it to them. And I- like, I think I try to never be afraid to move in whatever direction I feel called to, uh, and trust that if I just care about it and I do my best that it's gonna find its right audience, whether it's my audience or another audience. I don't think that way.

Chris Williamson 14:55 Is there something that you rely on to continually prioritize that sort of authenticity and that, uh, linear, uh, path from spirit to- to sort of world? 'Cause people do get captured, you know?

Neil Strauss 15:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:07 And it's- it's not like they're all doing it because I've- I've found that talking about keto means that I can make some money and therefore I'm gonna be the keto guy. There's just a fear of becoming someone new. Is there something that you rely on to help you stay authentic when you're looking at moving onto the next phase of life?

Neil Strauss 15:23 I- I would say it's more not s- it's more not something I rely on or something I do. I think it's a- it's a culmination of all the things I don't do, (laughs) right? So- so- and what I d- and- and I- and so I think there's nothing you have to do but it's just- it's letting go of attachment to stories, the story of who you think you are, the story of who other people think you are, the story of what supposedly works. 'Cause the fact is, none of those stories even work, you know (laughs) what I mean? Like, like eventually you're saying the same message and people get bored of it and sort of move on. Uh, it becomes predictable or you just seem like you're in the past or behind the times or something, so I don't even think those strategies really work for people. And by the way, side note, there are some kinds of people who really have one message and that's their message they wanna share and that fulfills them. I've certainly met people, and I'm sure you have on this podcast, who really have one message to say and that's really authentic to them and they don't have this curiosity that you and I have and so many of your guests have. Uh, and that's true to them, but- and- and that's cool, right? (laughs) But I think it's just about being true to yourself and, like, honoring that above all.

Chris Williamson 16:26 Yeah, I mean, even thinking about the transition from The Game to The Truth, like, ex-player chooses monogamy is a very convenient cultural narrative. It makes a- makes for a great headline.

Neil Strauss 16:39 Which- which is- which- and- which- e- 'cause they're- they're games we play, right? So that isn't what the book about- is about. So you're talking about The Truth and the- and for sure the narrative was pickup artist chooses monogamy, but the book had nothing to do with being a pickup artist and the end result wasn't about monogamy. It was about, it was about really choosing the... And the message of the book is, if you're unhealthy, any relationship style you choose is gonna be unhealthy, whether it's monogamy or-

Chris Williamson 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 17:04 ... polyamory or ethical non-monogamy or whate- whatever you, what- what have you. And if you're healthy, whatever you choose is gonna be healthy, (laughs) right? So it's really about- uh, and letting go of our attachments to, uh, this is right or that is right. In other words, you can get- be in a, uh, relationship and it can evolve and you might decide maybe it's time to- to evolve and open it up, and maybe it's time to shut it down and really be committed to each other. And I think a relationship is a negotiation and a discussion.

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Chris Williamson 18:38 Do you think our current mating culture is at odds with our evolved psychology?

Neil Strauss 18:43 ... um, elaborate on that question a little bit.

Chris Williamson 18:46 We have what seems to be, ancestrally, a monogamish or serially monogamal- uh, mo- monogamous, um, approach to- to- to mating, that som- somewhere between four and seven years, that's kind of the cycle, it's enough to get a child to be, uh, energy independent, they can go off and look after themselves, and then you and your partner are going to go separate ways. Yet we live in a culture that, uh, even though casual sex is allowed, and even though casual sex is often promoted, I think when children come into the picture, it's like, "You're supposed to be together for life, there's something sacred about this union." Uh, we have confluent- the confluent era of romance, you know, it's not because your next door neighbor has cows and you have goats and then if your son marries their daughter then, you know, you can combine your lands together or something like that.

Neil Strauss 19:30 Is that- is that- is the word for that confluent?

Chris Williamson 19:32 So the most recent-

Neil Strauss 19:33 What's confluent?

Chris Williamson 19:33 The most recent-

Neil Strauss 19:34 I haven't heard that one.

Chris Williamson 19:34 ... era is the confluent era. So-

Neil Strauss 19:35 Right.

Chris Williamson 19:35 ... um, this phenomenal researcher that I had on the show who has done a- a cultural assessment of romantic traditions o- throughout the ages, uh, and the confluent era is what he says we're in now, which is, uh, m- we can be in a relationship for as long as you benefit me and I benefit you, and if either of us stop benefiting each other, then we go our separate ways.

Neil Strauss 19:55 That- that's the era we're in?

Chris Williamson 19:56 That's the era that he's defined it as.

Neil Strauss 19:57 Here's another theory on that that I heard, and I think that's interesting. I don't know about th- I don't ... I'll just- I'm thinking on that.

Chris Williamson 20:03 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 20:03 So I interviewed Stephanie Coontz who wrote a book, A History of Marriage, and her take on it is, you know, we kind of went from, you know, what you were saying, that it was this, uh, th- you know, extra workers and inheritance rights and things like that to this idea of love, to now she sees as a pick and choose thing. And I'm an ex- I guess I'm an example of that (laughs) , which is like, okay, do I want kids or not want kids? Do I want monogamy or do I want not want monogamy? Do I want- do I want kids without marriage or kids with marriage? Do I want- we sort of have this checklist and we can kind of design the thing that we want. In my case, like, okay, I'm having a child but without the marriage, and, you know, and I think so she sees it as this sort of pick and choose era.

Chris Williamson 20:43 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 20:43 Um, and, uh, I don't know if there's a name for it or word for it, but I- that feels more right to me than the confluent thing, is like, "I'm with you as long as you serve me and I serve you, and then-"

Chris Williamson 20:54 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 20:54 "... we move on." That almost sounds like what it was before (laughs) , when it was like, "Well, it serves me to have, uh, more- more workers and a division of- of labor."

Chris Williamson 21:02 Well, you also know that more choices don't necessarily make us happier.

Neil Strauss 21:07 No.

Chris Williamson 21:07 Like, the paradox of choice is a big deal.

Neil Strauss 21:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:09 If it's like, okay, here is the one relationship style that people go for, this is the direction that it's in, you have a village of this many people, constraints on choice actually enable satisfaction in many ways.

Neil Strauss 21:22 Oh, totally. I mean, to think if we were- if there were arranged marriages, we're like ... and- and again, assuming there's no emotional or physical abuse, like, we'd be like, "Let's find a way to make this work." You and I with our- our minds, and I keep saying you and I 'cause I think we think similarly in terms of, like, having this learning growth mindset, be like, "Okay, I'm gonna make it work. I'm gonna adjust myself. I'm gonna see how we can work it out." So-

Chris Williamson 21:41 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 21:41 So for sure, I think, uh, I- I agree with you on the- on the paradox of choice, uh, and, um, and that's certainly a challenge we're having now with like (laughs) , with like the cour- in the courtship world, as far as there's just so many apps, and these apps are like (laughs) throwing so many people at you that people are like (laughs) , you know, uh, pricing themself out of the game in the sense that, uh, I mean, there're just serial daters who go on dates literally all the time, and that's just what they do because they like that quick validation. Um, and then the thing you're dealing- the interesting thing we're dealing with on the apps as far as this goes, and I realize we're jumping all over the courtship/relationship/divorce, we're doing it all backwards, but, uh, but the interesting thing about apps I find so fascinating, I met one of the- this wi- I met one of the co-founders at Tinder, reached out to me, and he says, "You know, uh, part of the reason we started this app was 'cause I read The Game, and I thought, 'Oh, that's so much work.' Wouldn't it be nicer if you just alwa- or already knew when someone was attracted to you and can take it from there?"

Chris Williamson 22:38 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 22:39 So it's- it's interesting, but I think it's- like you said, I think it- it is (laughs) a lot of admin, but the other thing is if you're hiring for a job, uh, it's tough, but if you- if you put a- a- an ad out, because the same unemployable people keep circling the job pool, right?

Chris Williamson 22:54 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 22:54 They get a job for a couple months and they get let go or they can't find a job. The same is true of the dating apps. A lot of the same undateable people keep circulating and circulating and circulating, so if you're on them regularly, it's easy to get cynical about your prospects.

Chris Williamson 23:09 Uh, are you familiar with

Chris Williamson 23:10 LMS? Do you know what that is?

Neil Strauss 23:11 No.

Chris Williamson 23:11 Lux money status?

Neil Strauss 23:13 Oh wait, it makes sense, okay.

Chris Williamson 23:14 So it's the, uh, triage priority list that a lot of guys in the black pill movement, uh, rely on and say is most important. Lux is most important, then money, then status.

Neil Strauss 23:25 For men?

Chris Williamson 23:26 Yes, for men. What's your thoughts?

Neil Strauss 23:30 Uh, my thoughts is it's like- it's a sad way to think (laughs) . It's a sad- it's a sad way to think. Um, and, uh, I- I guess, like, I'm just- I'm just kinda thinking out loud, I got a bunch of thoughts on the- the stuff you're saying. Um, but to speak back to your- to speak back to your- what- what you were saying about what it's like to be someone, I think, like, I think mostly we're all living our own stories of what it's like, and I think, like, if you choose to see the best in people, you can notice the best behavior. If you choose to see the worst in people, you're gonna notice the worst, worst behavior. And I think you're- it starts with the eyes you're seeing the world through, uh, and so down to looks, money, status (laughs) , I think that ... I mean, I think sta- I would probably ... I think they got it wrong. I- I think that- I think that there- there's, um, that ... and how would they define status, I guess I'll ask you?

Chris Williamson 24:28 I wouldn't be too sure. I would guess something like popularity.

Neil Strauss 24:32 Right.

Chris Williamson 24:32 Um ...

Neil Strauss 24:33 So I would- I would say it's high status behaviors. And I mean, I know this because I went and hacked it in the game, right? As a guy who is not that good-looking, um, as a guy, like, who ...... least at that time, didn't- didn't have any like, you know, wasn't someone recognized, didn't have a lot, didn't have status, didn't have money, didn't have looks, didn't have fame. We realize... And I also was a guy who, once I wrote the game, I had the people with the most looks, the most money, the most status calling me, like this fucking 5'6", big nose (laughs) , you know, dude who keeps saying "you know" and can't even articulate a really clean sentence, calling me for advice. The same shit I would... thought I was deal- alone dealing with, they were dealing with the same thing. And I think it really goes down to, like, how y- how you- you're- the story you tell yourself, more than money, looks, and status, and then how you reflect that story.

Chris Williamson 25:24 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 25:24 As a simple example, I've seen a lot of people with money, looks, and status engage in low-status behaviors, meaning being insecure, being doubtful, not carrying themselves well, not speaking, uh, just always being worried about what others are thinking about them. And whatever they ha- whatever- whatever those gained for them, they lost it. There's a line, it was like a troubadour poem that, like, that's something about the... when they were first sort of talking about making romance and art, uh, in that era, that's like, "The eyes- the eyes go forth to seek an image which they can then recommend to the heart." And so I think the money, looks, and status, like, might get your foot in the door. But after that, it's who you are that enables you to stay in that door, unless you're dealing with someone who has similarly low self-esteem (laughs) , right? And is just out there looking for a target who has those things-

Chris Williamson 26:16 Hmm.

Neil Strauss 26:16 ... because they've got their own wounds and they feel like that gives them safety. So let's go-

Chris Williamson 26:20 I think-

Neil Strauss 26:20 Sorry, go ahead.

Chris Williamson 26:21 No, just w- one of the interesting reflections that a lot of friends who may be in the early 2010s were trying to do game and pick up and day game and e- stuff like that, what they realized was, they became quite disenchanted, I think, with the world of dating because they saw what they needed to do in order to be attractive to women and then realized the distance that that was from who they really were, or what they thought they needed to do in order to be attractive to women, and realized that, "I can get what I want, but what I want doesn't actually see me." And that distance between the two of, "I'm having to tell them about the midget fight outside and do my Kino escalation and ignore the p- and do all the rest of the stuff," that, I think, caused a lot of them to, uh, become very disenfranchised and disenchanted with the world of dating.

Neil Strauss 27:13 Yeah, I think... I mean, a couple- a couple thoughts. And- and to go back, so again, these are like the stories we- we tell ourselves. Like, I think that there's a learning process and maybe you learn... I- if I look back at the game, you know, there's so many different issues around it, negative and positive and everything else, um, but I see it as a lot of sort of neurodivergent people trying to learn how to socially interact, including myself, right? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:37 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 27:37 And so- so for me, I needed those little... I didn't know, "Just tell me what to say (laughs) ," like, how to angle my body. I was so- I was so uncomfortable around people. And then once I learned it, then I could let it go the same way, uh, you learn anything, which is sort of learning the rules and then throwing them- throwing them out.

Chris Williamson 27:54 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 27:54 Um, so second... I got three points to make, but you're s- a- again, these topics are so interesting, right? (laughs) Uh, second thought is that... another perspective on the- on the LMS thing you said (laughs) , uh, which- which, uh, uh... The second perspective is, people don't know what they want, so they might... What they want are the things behind that. So a way to think about, uh... For example, it used to really hurt my self-esteem when I'd read personal ads and everyone wanted a guy who was six feet or, and o- and taller. How- how- how tall are you?

Chris Williamson 28:30 5'10".

Neil Strauss 28:30 Okay, that's great, right? I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm fi- I'm 5'6", you know (laughs) ? Maybe 5'6" and a half at a stretch, right (laughs) ? And it took me a long time to realize that it wasn't height that they were looking for. What they were looking for was safety. I want to feel... When they're- when it's- when- maybe the- the... What is... let's just say, "What does money represent?" Money represents that some- some degree of, you know, security.

Chris Williamson 28:51 Competence.

Neil Strauss 28:52 Uh, and competence. That was the word I was looking for. Exactly, competence. So- so if you look at the reasons underneath these and you embody the reasons under- underneath these, which anybody can do, the other stuff doesn't matter.

Chris Williamson 29:03 Yeah, I think that's where the sort of disenchantment came from, which was not feeling like you had the actual foundation, realizing that you could create the glitzy sort of mystique, like, "You do not need to see how much money I have. You do not need to see how much money I have." And then going, "Oh, I can get what I want by pretending to play this game, and deep down, I still don't feel like I'm worthy of it. I don't think that they see-"

Neil Strauss 29:28 Right.

Chris Williamson 29:28 "... me."

Neil Strauss 29:29 Right.

Chris Williamson 29:29 What they see is this persona.

Neil Strauss 29:30 As soon as you're saying, "I don't want you to know how little money I have," you're like that influencer we were talking about earlier who's promoting a vegan diet- diet while eating meat for dinner, you know?

Chris Williamson 29:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Neil Strauss 29:38 You're- you're creating a split in yourself (laughs) . Um, so here's the other thing you were talking about is, I think these people you're talking about, you know, the c- like the concept of locus of control? Like, there's external locus of control and internal locus of control. And I'm probably gonna get these wrong, so apologize- apologies if I do. Um, so the idea is like, are the things that are happening to me the fault of others outside myself? Which is a nice thing to believe, right? It's just, "Women are like that, thus I'm opting out. Men are like that, thus I'm just not dealing with that." The world... You know, and so we're just saying, "We're creating this- this... It's everybody else's fault, so I don't have to change. I can just hate on them (laughs) ," right?

Chris Williamson 30:19 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 30:19 Uh, or B, the way I am and the way I think you are is that like, "This is going on. How can I do better? How can I change? How can I be better? How can I understand? How can I be empathic?" And like, it's a lot more work but, man, you're a lot happier.

Chris Williamson 30:37 Yeah. I think the benefit... Uh, from the cynic's perspective, the benefit of never trying is never having to feel the pain of failure.

Neil Strauss 30:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:46 That's... I came up with this idea called the cynicism safety blanket-

Neil Strauss 30:50 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 30:50 ... which is basically that. That's what-

Neil Strauss 30:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:51 That- that's why it exists. It's sour grapes at an existential level.

Neil Strauss 30:55 Yeah. And so I noticed myself, if I ever start to thi-... And I don't even do this anymore because I stopped it.Like, if I ever start thinking something negatively about someone who's successful, and start comparing their work to mine and what mine (laughs) , you know, I just stop instantly and I just think, you know, "What can I learn from that for myself?"

Chris Williamson 31:10 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 31:10 And, uh, again, most of your listeners, I feel like are learning, growth minded people.

Chris Williamson 31:15 Correct, yeah.

Neil Strauss 31:15 But I think we can understand that there's certain people, and I've come across them, that if you're, if somebody is doing better than you, you can either try to do better or you can try to bring them down-

Chris Williamson 31:23 Bring them down, yeah.

Neil Strauss 31:24 ... to your level. And that's like, that's a spin in the world. But the people who try to bring them down are the loud voices right now-

Chris Williamson 31:30 Correct.

Neil Strauss 31:30 ... in the culture.

Chris Williamson 31:31 Correct.

Chris Williamson 31:32 So you, do you still run a men's group?

Neil Strauss 31:35 Uh, I'd- I did for a while, and now I just sort of do, not really.

Chris Williamson 31:39 Okay.

Neil Strauss 31:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:39 But you've been tangential to men's worky things?

Neil Strauss 31:42 Yeah, I'm in a, I'm in a men's, I'm in a men's group as a, as a, uh-

Chris Williamson 31:45 Participant?

Neil Strauss 31:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:47 Yeah. Okay. So given the fact that for the best part of 20 years now you've been, in one form or another, observing men's development, emotionally, relationally, spiritually, psychologically, therapeutically, uh, what do you make of the current state of men's friendships, mental health, masculinity, role models? It's a very common talking point. What- what's your perspective on where men are at at the moment?

Neil Strauss 32:14 Yeah, I've he- I've heard you talk about it a bit on the podcast, but f- what's your kind of take now in a nutshell, out of curiosity?

Chris Williamson 32:20 I think that men are being made to pay for the sins of a patriarchy that they no longer feel like they're a part of at the moment. They're being told how privileged they are and how fortunate they are to have all of these different advantages. And quite rightly, there are outliers at the top, the Elon Musks, the Bezoses of the world, the NBA players, the NFL players. Um, but I don't think that that fully captures the male experience, and I think that a lot of men don't feel like they're, they feel like their worries are being dismissed out of hand by a whining class, this sort of chattering class. Meanwhile, suicide, depression, friendlessness, loneliness, sexlessness, y- uh, uh, health, all of the problems that we know that men have, uh, and I think that it's making them feel quite embittered toward the world, because what they're saying is, "I'm suffering and you don't care, so fuck you, I'm not gonna play your game."

Neil Strauss 33:14 Right, and now who in this story is you?

Chris Williamson 33:17 Who in that story is me?

Neil Strauss 33:18 No, you, you don't care, when they, when you're saying you, who is the you? 'Cause this might get to the point I was go- thinking of.

Chris Williamson 33:23 The world.

Neil Strauss 33:24 Yes, okay. So I think we have this split that we think the world is the stuff we receive, (laughs) you know, from our devices and from our computers, (clears throat) and- and that's a game we don't wanna play. So there's an unhealthy game of thinking that the voices that are loud online and the, you know, the TikToks that get fed into our feed and the sp- tweets we see are somehow the belief of the culture. And (laughs) , and, uh, and it can really mess us up. And, and I've see- I've s- I've seen you had on the podcast, uh, when we did that wonderful JK Rowling podcast, (clears throat) and there- there's somebody who like literally just, sh- she just got sucked into this, sucked into this hole and she's now living her life out of her trauma that was, a- again, I'm just really smart thinking about that- that, um, sh- you can get, you can get taken off course by just listening to these voices and thinking that the culture thinks it or people think it. It's just one- one of many stories out there but... And- and I think it can get confusing if you have less of a, of a grounded sense of self, or if it plays into your personal trauma.

Chris Williamson 34:34 Well, I think, I think the problem that a lot of people, especially young people at the moment, are facing, is that their experience is the internet, their world is the internet. You know, if you're spending between six and eight hours a day on screens online, TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, uh, video games, that is more real than the real world. What do you mean the fucking real world?

Neil Strauss 34:56 Right.

Chris Williamson 34:56 Like, this is my real world.

Neil Strauss 34:57 Right.

Chris Williamson 34:58 You know, I- I'm- I'm observing it. Like, what are the, where are the countervailing narratives that push back against the fact that maybe people do care about the fact that men are suffering? Maybe people do care about the fact that, "I'm really struggling to get a job or a girlfriend," or, "I feel, I'm neurodivergent and I don't understand what to do. I- I can't hold down a- a- a- a relationship," or, "I don't have enough friends," or whatever it is. Like, if you're not going out there into the real world to see the alternate storylines-

Neil Strauss 35:23 Yeah. A- and that, and I think that's, I think that's exactly the point, that it is very real for people. And when it becomes that real, it actually does become dangerous. And, (clears throat) and I would say that, I would say it's happening to everybody. You know what I mean? (laughs) Like, it doesn't matter what, uh, what your identity is or how you identify yourself, there's some vector of attack that is really making you feel like you're doing it wrong, you're not enough, if you step out of line you'll get slapped really, really hard. And (laughs) , uh, and- and- and really that's why it's important, going back to what you said, for me to be in a men's group or for me to be in a world, in a, in a community of a small amount of people who really, really care, who support you in the best way you can, where you can really get that feedback and you can say, "You know what? I've s- seen this stuff online and it's stressing me out in this way." So I think the point being, I mean, the, all these... There is a real problem in terms of these are not contributing to anyone's mental health. Um, and- and I think a few things are important (laughs) . I mean, one is to really try to stay out of a victim story to start, 'cause once you get into... There's that saying, and I think it's the most true thing ever, that all perpetrators perpetrate from the victim position. I mean, look at every war going on, and the main thing is, is there's a victim. I'm not saying that whatever's right or wrong, but all sides are the victim (laughs) , right?

Chris Williamson 36:57 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 36:58 You know?

Chris Williamson 36:58 That's an interesting point.

Neil Strauss 36:59 Like, whether it's with H- Hitler was a- encirclement, Putin was encirclements, right? We're surrounded by enemies, we're the vic- like, so we perpetrate from the victim position. So like-

Chris Williamson 37:07 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 37:07 ... the first step is-If you really want to get any, any, uh, reality on it to stop and, and get out of the victim story, 'cause this is when people start. That's where that leads to the hater, that makes it okay to sort of perpetrate.

Chris Williamson 37:17 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 37:18 Uh, but we can say there are all these variables around us, and how can we curate these variables so they help us? And I do think th- (laughs) these, it's insane, it's wild to me that all these companies that pretend to care about people don't have the algorithms working to actually help people versus market to them. Like, I would love something, and, and it's to the way the system works and capitalism works, but what if the algorithm was not, like, "What can we sell you?" Or, "What can we market to you?" But, like, "How can we improve your mental health?"

Chris Williamson 37:49 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 37:49 Right? How can we, how can we make you... And, and I think that would help the world, and actually create better consumers. (laughs) A- a- anyway. So, so, so I hear, I hear, I hear what you're saying, um, and I get to the point of view that I don't want to, uh, um, I don't want anyone to tell me what my identity is, what it should be, how I should be within that identity. I probably identify myself on other factors more than, uh...

Chris Williamson 38:16 I think a lot of, especially guys, but also girls increasingly now, are lost. They don't know. It, we're in this completely new world. If you're either millennial or Gen Z or Gen A, your parents don't really have the skillset or the awareness to be able to work out how to exist in this world. What does it mean to be technologically native? What does it mean to be in a world with porn and Tinder and OnlyFans and, and expectations and boob jobs and BBLs and stuff? What does it mean to exist like that? So people are quite rightly looking for archetypes and role models. "I want someone to give me some advice to get me out of this." So, I, I don't disagree, many people like the idea of agency and sovereignty over their own direction. "I don't want anybody to tell me who I am or what I should do or the way that I should do it. I want to feel like I am the captain of my own ship." And yet, there are people who also need some fucking guidelines. "How am I supposed to exist in the world? What does it mean to be confident? Where does my self-esteem come from? Where should I seek validation and not seek validation?" These are questions that people look for role models, and unfortunately, I think culture is just offering up, like, very few. And here's my, like, my sort of-

Neil Strauss 39:26 Yeah, yeah. I like

Chris Williamson 39:26 ... spicy meteorological take for the future.

Neil Strauss 39:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:29 I think that male body dysmorphia will overtake female body dysmorphia, and female, uh, crisis of femininity will overtake the crisis of masculinity within the space of about 20 years. I think that we're feeding the seeds of a unbelievably fragile, narcissistic generation of women, and a unbelievably aesthetically anxious generation of men.

Neil Strauss 39:54 (laughs) And a- add to this, add to this computation, add AI is gonna create (laughs) these archetypes that, like, no human being can live up to of perfection. I was seeing some of the... So, like, on one hand, the culture's getting into sort of body posi- body positivity.

Chris Williamson 40:07 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 40:07 On the other hand, (laughs) AI is creating these, like, archetypes that go, like, beyond what

Chris Williamson 40:11 ... Fibonacci sequence perfect ratio, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you mean.

Neil Strauss 40:16 Yeah, yeah. So, so it's like, I think, we're, we're, we're, uh... But, um, here, here's my thought. I think there's, there's an... I'm, I'm a big reader. I think you were talking on another podcast about reading, and I love reading. And right now, I'm reading this amazing... So Penguin did a box set of the great books. Uh, it's called The Little, Black Classics, I think. Uh, and it's, it's a box set of 80 of the greatest books throughout history, of the last, I don't know, 3,000 years. And then there's about 40 or 50 books beyond that. I've, I'm, I'm going through them all in order, right? And, and what I'm learning from it is when I'm reading, uh, about, uh, a monk in Japan, the, Kanko, I forget what century he was from, uh, but at least, you know, four or five centuries ago, to reading, uh, Mozart's letters with his dad, he, uh, to reading Socrates, to reading Camus. Like, these things you're talking about, maybe the language was different, but we're, everyone was still dealing with that. The trial of Socrates is like, "People are telling me who I should be and how I should be. I don't follow the common beliefs. Uh, you know, there's all these rumors being spread about me that aren't even true." Like, (laughs) he's literally, you know, dealing with the same stuff. And sure, you know, there's more of it, and the

Chris Williamson 41:26 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 41:26 ... devices are different, and it's being listed this, this other way, but I think they're, they're, um, they're... This human nature and these problems we dealt with, like, there is a timeless quality to them, although they seem really unique generationally.

Chris Williamson 41:39 We'll get back to talking to Neil in one minute, but first, I need to tell you about Shopify. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the United States. They are the global force behind Gymshark, Allbirds, and, in case you didn't know it, Nutonic. Shopify is the global commerce platform and it helps you sell at every stage of your business. They are your no excuses business partner. You can sell without learning to code or design. Just bring your best ideas, and Shopify will help you open up shop. Plus, Shopify's award-winning help is there to support your success every step of the way. Look, if you're starting an online business, it's not because you want to learn how to code or do graphic design. Shopify handles all of the BS so that you can focus on building and selling an awesome product. Right now, you can sign up for a $1 per month trial period by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom, all lowercase. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom to grow your business no matter what stage you're in. Do

Chris Williamson 42:36 you think that it's possible to game love or connection in a relationship in the same way as you were able to do it with courtship?

Neil Strauss 42:44 Um, I mean, I think, I think my short an- the short version of the answer is, any... And by the way, what are your thoughts on that, by the way? 'Cause I know we have a different thought, 'cause I noticed you switched the topic, which is fine, we can go to that. What are your thoughts on the idea that... And I can give you some... I think if s- someone reads Albert Camus's Create Dangerously, for example-

Chris Williamson 42:59 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 43:00 ... he literally complains about some of the things people are... He's like, about some of the things that people feel like they're uniquely complaining about now. Like, some of the lines could com- could, could, could apply to today or, uh... I just think there's probably a set of-... a- e- everything I read, everything I read, and I can send you some of these excerpts. Like, I'll mark things that literally sound like it's people talking about-

Chris Williamson 43:21 Perennial problems.

Neil Strauss 43:22 ... perennial problems. But what do, what are your thoughts? 'Cause I think you're, you see it in a very, we're in a unique cultural crisis of masculinity and mental health.

Chris Williamson 43:30 Well, I think fr- from the gaming level, long-term connection thing, it seems to me that more people are beginning to wake up to the fact that they probably don't want to sleep around indefinitely, and kind of be in this weird Tinder admin, like, liminal purgatory for the rest of time. That probably doesn't sound like fun. Uh, but no one really talks about love and relationships. You know, even a lot of the evolutionary psychology stuff that I've dug into, and I know that you've looked at as well, it speaks in a very sort of sterile, transactional way, its mate value and its offering for status and protection and resources over fecundity and age and fertility and blah, blah, blah. Uh, and no one ever talks about the actual felt experience of being in love, or-

Neil Strauss 44:15 Right.

Chris Williamson 44:15 ... or, or what it's like to be attached to somebody else and be dependent on them and, and, and be in union with them and, and, and do things that make each other feel good and, and stuff like that. It's always, it's always a very dispassionate look at how, what, what's the ledger? What's the balance sheet of this? Uh, and at least as far as I can see, I think that you can quite easily game attraction, but it is much more difficult to game connection.

Neil Strauss 44:41 And when you say no one talks about love, you mean like ... What do you mean by that?

Chris Williamson 44:45 Well, look at the dating advice-

Neil Strauss 44:46 I mean, listen to-

Chris Williamson 44:46 ... that you see that's online.

Neil Strauss 44:47 Right.

Chris Williamson 44:48 Like, how much of the dating advice talks about, "This is what it feels like when you're head over heels besotted with a guy or girl partner, and this is how you can handle the emotions that come up, of jealousy and uncertainty and anxiety and fear of being left," and all of these things. Uh, no one ever wants to talk about that because it seems in a modern world where we, you know, we can predict the weather and we can send rockets into space and we've conquered bacteria and we've got a theory of disease and we've got AI, love kind of almost feels like God. It's sort of this very unsophisticated, wishy-washy, uh-

Neil Strauss 45:25 Are you talking about kind of love or relationships, just in your case? You're talking about-

Chris Williamson 45:30 Both. Both-

Neil Strauss 45:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:30 ... I think. I, I just don't think that there's a massive amount of discussion about love or relationships, um, uh, uh, and how to build them together in any, i- in a phenomenologically, uh, consistent way.

Neil Strauss 45:44 Yeah. I g- I guess, in my ... By the way, in my, in my mind, I actually think there's more out there on relationships than courtship. And I guess it maybe just depends on what silo-

Chris Williamson 45:53 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 45:53 ... you're in and what, what you're being fed.

Chris Williamson 45:55 Where's your echo chamber? Where's mine?

Neil Strauss 45:55 You know? Yeah. What, what's your, what's your echo chamber? Because, uh, because, like, a l- a lot of people out there are hurting over relationships. They're hurting over a past relationship they were in, where they're just traumatized from the experience, and, uh, they're hurting over one they're in and they just can't get out of. They're hurting one that, over one that's over, should be over, but this person is still in the court system fighting them for their child. They're hurting because they dated a narcissist or, you know, a sociopath, or someone with borderline who put them through a living hell and gaslit them and drove them. So there's so much ... There's more pain out there from people trying to figure out the relationship stuff, and consequently, I think more, uh, people looking for, to books and podcasts and experts, and healing around that, at least in, in my silo. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:50 Mm. Where does the healing-

Neil Strauss 46:53 But then the other side of what you're talking about is, uh, then there's a flip side of it, which is there's a part of, there's a love being marketed to us through movies and pop songs that is also not realistic to what our expectations of it, you know, should be. That, um ... (clears throat) So maybe I can think of your question another way, which is we're, we're seeing the horror stories and we're seeing the fantasies. You're smiling 'cause I'm agreeing, because we're agreeing, right? (laughs) But, but, but where, where are we seeing, like, what's, what really should be a healthy expectation of what a relationship is like? Right? Which i- which means that, you know, a relationship with zero conflict is a warning sign. It's not a great relationship, right? (laughs) That means someone is ... That's usually what, what they call a parallel relationship, two people living separate lives under one roof. It's okay to have, you know, again, as long as there's no emotional or physical abuse. It's, uh, h- conflict is good. To me, a healthy relationship is how quickly you recover from a conflict and truly get back to where you were before it. That's a healthy relationship.

Chris Williamson 47:57 I've heard you say you shouldn't be using signs to decide what to do with your heart.

Neil Strauss 48:02 Yes.

Chris Williamson 48:02 And I do think a lot about how much people are trying to rationally logic themselves into a effective, satisfying relationship.

Neil Strauss 48:13 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. (laughs) I think it's true, and I, I think, like, it's, it's fascinating too. The other side of it is people who really have a long list of what they want, and then (laughs) they just go for the same broken shit every time, (laughs) and the list goes away, and ... Or, or, or they think, they think they've found that thing they want that meets their list, but that was the mask and they end up in the same horror story they were before.

Chris Williamson 48:34 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 48:35 So, so going back to relationships, I do think the ... I mean, I think the healthiest way to have the healthiest relationship, learned from experience, is literally just, it goes back to external versus internal locus of control. It goes back to, like, I can control ... I, I, I love, like, I love the work of always working on yourself. (laughs) Like, I just love it, and I think if it's a theme or these places where we differ, it's probably, "I'm always blaming myself. I'm always looking at myself. I can't control the culture. I can't control what people think. But what I can do is control how I respond to it. And to me, it's giving myself the ultimate agency." Right? And so I can't, I don't want to get into story that, hm, I'm upset about something outside myself that I have no control over. I wanna get in the story of-... fuck, I'm reacting to that. Why am I reacting to that? What thoughts am I then having because of that? How can I not be reactive? And then going back to relationships, (clears throat) here's a ... I've never articulated this, but I think it's an important idea, which is, you don't know whether you're, again, taking aside the edge cases of emotional and physical abuse, you don't know whether your relationship, where the problem is you or your partner, until you stop reacting to your partner. So if I'm in a relationship and I come with a bunch of complaints and I say why it's not working, but I'm reacting, you know, they're saying something and I'm getting upset about it or I'm getting hurt about it or I'm getting resentful or I'm shutting down or I'm whatever it is. Until they can have, uh, any kind of response, and I can really just be empathic, I can listen without taking it personally, I can not defend, I can not defend myself, I can just seek to understand, um, I'm not able to judge the health of my relationship. And I realize that was a little bit of a tangent.

Chris Williamson 50:17 Not at all. I-

Neil Strauss 50:18 Does that make sense?

Chris Williamson 50:18 What would you say to the people who do continue to find themselves repeating the same patterns, whether it's their perspective of the world, their s- perspective of relationships, the kinds of people that they are attracted to or attract? What are the first places that those people should look?

Neil Strauss 50:35 Yeah, I think there's, I think there's two sides of it, right? There, or maybe there's three sides of it, right? In a relationship, there's three entities. There's you, there's the other person, and then there's the relationship itself as a third entity. Right? So I think we can look at, I think we can kind of look at all three of those. So one side is understand, again, like attachment theory is so trendy right now that, that I don't even need to talk about it 'cause everyone knows it, but when I first talked about it, (laughs) like it was really new stuff. But understanding that we're wired a certain way because we love what's familiar. That's the easiest way to think about stuff. We love what's familiar, so consequently, um, if you had a narcissistic parent, you'll, you'll, you'll probably gonna try to meet some form of narcissist and then try to get seen by them, and it'll lead you to immense frustration. Or you had an abandoning parent, you're gonna choose somebody who is, uh, not emotionally there or not physically there or replicating that for you in some way, and you're gonna try to ch- heal your childhood through trying to get them to be there, to be seen through all these things. And I think, like, so step one is heal yourself instead of trying to expect someone else to heal you. So that goes against, what was that word you said about the relationships where we use each other?

Chris Williamson 51:49 Confluent.

Neil Strauss 51:49 Confluent (laughs) relationships. Um, so, so step one is, like, um, what's that classic book on self-esteem that Ayn Rand, like, uh, Nathaniel Brandon? Uh, he really said about we attract people who are at our level of self-esteem. So whenever someone's ... By the way, I hope I'm not throwing too many ideas-

Chris Williamson 52:08 No, no.

Neil Strauss 52:08 ... all over the place at once, so. So whenever someone ... (laughs) I just love these subjects, they're so fun to talk about. Uh, so whenever somebody is saying, complaining about their partner, in my brain I'm always thinking, "You're dating them or you're married to them." (laughs) Like, what way and which way are you an equal that's not that your partner's ... you're so emotionally mature and your partner's so emotionally immature? You're dating each other. You're attracting your own level of that. Maybe you're the flip side of the same coin. But it's the same coin. So the first thing is raising your own level of, like, emotional health, uh, healing those childhood pant- pat- patterns and wounds, uh, working on the, uh, um, self-esteem piece. Like you wanna attract better people, just, like, literally become a better person, (laughs) right? All those li- that list you have of everything that you need in a relationship, go look at yourself with that list, and you embody those and you'll find that person. You know, I love Byron Katie's four questions, and the best part about them is by- Byron Katie has those four questions where you can challenge your beliefs. But then the fifth thing is the turnaround, and that's changed my life. And here's, like, a shortcut for using it. If I ever tell myself a story, "That person's annoying," the turnaround is, and I can list the reasons why they're annoying, I say, "I'm annoying," then I can think of all the reasons I'm (laughs) annoying, right? I can think that, "My partner's never there for me." What are the ways in which I'm not there for the partner? So if I turn things around, my accusations of other people to myself, I can usually see, we can all see usually, but I can usually see I'm not, I'm just as imperfect. So first step is with yourself. But the challenge in that is, (laughs) is, um, uh, the best way to learn about how to, uh, about a, how to have a healthy relationship is to be in one, so there's tools and skills you can have in a relationship that you can work on it. So if you're in a relationship that again, where you're not dating someone who is really toxic or toxic for you, uh, is to, like, work on your own reactions. Like literally, relationship is a system, right? And so if you change the piece of the system you can control, yourself, the whole system changes. And I can't tell you how many times, (clears throat) in my experience and in other people's experience, that if I change how I react to things and just respond instead of reacting, if I change some part of myself, the whole relationship changes. And all that, all that energy ... Sorry, man, I've got so much to say on this one.

Chris Williamson 54:23 No, no, no, I'm enjoying it. Honestly.

Neil Strauss 54:26 Okay. (laughs) Okay. All that energy people put into changing their partner never works. It never works. It just creates resentment, and you're reenacting a parental figure they had when they were younger that criticized them, right? They signed up for that. And so if you just take that energy out, you work on yourself, you change, your partner will automatically change. Like, they'll just change 'cause the system changes. They'll say, "Oh, what are you doing? You seem happier. What's, what's going on for you? I ... Y- y- you're in that men, in that men's group. Maybe I should be in this women's group," or, "You're doing therapy? Who? Maybe I should get therapy too." Like, fuck, man. (laughs) Just, like, it's all goes back to, like ... Yeah, it all goes back to, like, the better you make yourself, the better relationships you'll be in and the better the world around you will start to look.

Chris Williamson 55:11 What are the modalities that you've found best for unpicking these patterns?

Neil Strauss 55:16 Yeah. I think there's a, there's a, (clears throat) formula that I think of. Your eyebrow's raised, I love you. This is like podcast college. "Wait, there's a formula?" Okay, so, (laughs) so it's the, it's these three things, and I think these work together. Um, (clears throat) ...So people always talk about therapy doesn't work, but I think they're talking about talk therapy. And I agree that talk therapy is not great for a change, because your problems were developed before you had, um, the intellectual capacity. They, the wounds happened emotionally. And so I think we need to heal them. It's best to heal them emotionally. So I think the formula is, is these three things. So one is deep, intensive, uh, deep, intensive experiences that are whether they're workshops or things where you're really, really unpacking your wounds, and you're just a puddle of tears on the ground. So, so some container where you can block off the outside world and all that social media you're talking about (laughs) and really break, rip off the Band-Aid and, and just be, uh-

Chris Williamson 56:15 What are some examples of that?

Neil Strauss 56:16 Sure. My favorite that, I'll say my favorite, the one that worked for me... And by the way, people's thing they say the best is usually the first thing they did that really worked. So, so my bias and the first thing that really worked for me was the, at the Meadows, which is, uh, a treatment center in Arizona. They have a program called the Survivors Program, and it's like an exorcism of your childhood wounds. Like, you sit there in a chair like this, and I literally felt like an exorcism. Um, and I remember leaving the therapy, and for the first time, I'm like, "Fuck, this is who I am without all that shit, without all that baggage I was carrying from Mom and Dad and all my upbringing." Like, "Fuck, this is who I really I am." And then, of course, you go back to your regular environment and the same shit happenings, and you start having the same response, but now, like, you have a target to get back to. People love the Hoffman Process. I think the Hoffman Process is, is very, is amazing as well. Um, the difference is, it's, it's, this, Meadows is a, you know, a s- psychiatric facility, and you're getting one-on-one work. Uh, the Hoffman Process is group work, but it's also amazing. Um, but, uh, but here's the, here's the thing. I think anything you do where the person and yourself both have the intention of really getting better, and it's not a cult, (laughs) um, is gonna work for you.

Chris Williamson 57:35 Must ensure it is not a cult.

Neil Strauss 57:37 Here's how you know it's a cult. It's a cult if part of the treatment involves you signing up other people for the work. Simple rule of thumb. I've been, I've... 'Cause I do so much self-improvement stuff, I went to these ones that were culty.

Chris Williamson 57:49 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 57:50 It was amazing to see how the brainwashing worked and how effective it was.

Chris Williamson 57:52 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 57:53 They, like, create these loops within the self-improvement teachings that they then pull the strings on months or years later that get you to follow it like a robot. It's unbelievable.

Chris Williamson 58:02 How interesting. Um-

Neil Strauss 58:03 But here, well, let me add one more thought. Sorry, man. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:05 No, no, no, keep going. We've got two more stages to get through.

Neil Strauss 58:07 Okay, (laughs) so, so this therapy at the Meadows is called post-induction therapy, speaking of cults. And the idea is that your childhood is like a hypnotic induction. Your childhood is a, is a cult. A nice, uh... Is that your... I gotta show your drink, by the way.

Chris Williamson 58:20 Get it, get it in there.

Neil Strauss 58:21 Yes, okay. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:21 You need a little bit more energy.

Neil Strauss 58:22 Um, this is, this is how you get these three-hour podcasts.

Chris Williamson 58:25 That's correct.

Neil Strauss 58:26 Um, so your childhood is a hypnotic induction, or you're in a, you're being do- indoctrinated into a cult. And the cult is whatever your parents believe, right? We all grow up... And so the post-induction therapy is un-brainwashing you from this cult you were in for the first 17 years.

Chris Williamson 58:40 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 58:41 Which I love.

Chris Williamson 58:42 What was that? Can you just briefly describe the process

Chris Williamson 58:45 of... Was it, like, acquisition and pruning that happens in the brain? I've heard you-

Neil Strauss 58:49 Oh, sure. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:49 ... you talk about that before.

Neil Strauss 58:51 Yeah, so I'll tell you what. I'll hit the two other things-

Chris Williamson 58:53 Yep.

Neil Strauss 58:53 ... and then we'll talk about-

Chris Williamson 58:53 Come back, come back to that.

Neil Strauss 58:54 ... 0000000000000.

Chris Williamson 58:54 Okay, so first one, it... Just to round out that first stage of your three-step process to becoming the ultimate human-

Neil Strauss 59:00 First stage, 3 stages. Okay, deep intensive workshop. Like, you know, just one or two a year where you're just emotionally kind of... Where, where you're going through some sort of emotionally purging experience.

Chris Williamson 59:08 And what, what are the principles of that modality? That it's something which is emotionally intensive?

Neil Strauss 59:14 Yeah, and multiple days.

Chris Williamson 59:16 Yep.

Neil Strauss 59:17 And, um, in just a sort of safe container.

Chris Williamson 59:20 Understood. Okay, there's one.

Neil Strauss 59:21 Um, meaning that simply you're just trying to let, let... And, and then as everyone who's ever been to an amazing seminar or workshop knows, you, you get that high, post-seminar high, (laughs) and then you go back and do the same old shit, right? So step two is maintenance, meaning we get this change, and we get... Our brain gets set right. And we go back to our world, and the same stuff's just happening. The brain starts to go askew again. So I want to talk about the men-... So, uh, some sort of weekly accountability so you can just, uh, keep being reminded of what direction your, your, your, your boat should be pointed in. Here's an awesome thing about these men's groups, and, like, I really, um... And I'm not saying, "Go on..." I'm actually not saying, "Go on Instagram and find somebody who's starting a men's group," (clears throat) "you know, and join that." What I'm actually saying, when I, when I say, "Men's group," I s-... What I did was I took five or six people about at my level of, uh, of work, some people you know, um, and, uh, and we're at the same place. Maybe we're have, have kids or marriage, divorce, whatever it is. And then we all chipped in for one therapist. So this is really affordable. It's cheaper than individual therapy. And group therapy has been, like, studied to be more effective, but what's amazing about group therapy is I can sit... Say you're the therapist, and you have a point of view. I can just say, "Well, you know, he's wrong. He doesn't know me." Like, "That's just his opinion and how he was lear-... How he was taught." But if it's you and four other peers who I recommend and they're all saying I'm wrong, like, "I don't think you guys are right, but you're all saying it, so there must be something there for me to explore."

Chris Williamson 1:00:58 Nowhere to hide.

Neil Strauss 1:00:58 Yeah, nowhere to hide, and with a, with a group, between your weekly sessions with a therapist, you can stay in touch with the group.

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:01:06 So I strongly recommend it. It's, it's, it's, uh... And you need the therapist there just for the accountability so you don't go off on some...

Chris Williamson 1:01:12 Just becomes a bro evening.

Neil Strauss 1:01:14 Yeah, becomes a bro evening, or you just stay-

Chris Williamson 1:01:15 Oh!

Neil Strauss 1:01:15 ... reinforcing some unhealthy behavior.

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Neil Strauss 1:02:25 Big change workshops.

Chris Williamson 1:02:27 Yep.

Neil Strauss 1:02:27 Th-

Chris Williamson 1:02:27 Around about one to two a year?

Neil Strauss 1:02:29 Uh, yeah. You know, or for whatever, 1 or 2 a year.

Chris Williamson 1:02:32 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:02:33 Just, it could just be one every couple years.

Chris Williamson 1:02:34 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:02:35 Um, you know, I think the Vipassana retreats are probably great. I haven't done that thing where you hole up in a solitary confinement therapy thing.

Chris Williamson 1:02:42 Couple of friend- couple of friends have done that.

Neil Strauss 1:02:43 Do they like it?

Chris Williamson 1:02:44 Mixed bag.

Neil Strauss 1:02:45 Okay.

Chris Williamson 1:02:45 Uh, I mean, whether it's a darkness retreat, whether it's, um, uh, Peter Atia did, I think, three weeks of-

Neil Strauss 1:02:53 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 1:02:54 ... daily psychotherapy, uh, which was basically like him being sort of locked in a, a, a, th- he, he, he was adamant after two weeks, "I'm done. I'm, I'm completely sweet." And they were like, "You're not done."

Neil Strauss 1:03:06 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:03:06 And he got real frustrated and then sure enough, uh, like, day 19 of 21 or whatever was the day that everything happened.

Neil Strauss 1:03:13 Wow.

Chris Williamson 1:03:14 Um, but yeah. There's, there's a lot of these sort of intensive, intensive retreats. Then a m- men's group or some kind of circling group.

Neil Strauss 1:03:21 Some, some t- some sort of like, uh, talk accountability.

Chris Williamson 1:03:25 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:03:25 So, w- therapy or m- or just a group. It doesn't have to be a men's group or women's group. Can be whatever group.

Chris Williamson 1:03:30 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:03:30 And the third thing is tools to use when you're in the moment of crisis. Meaning, uh, okay, as, uh, like a one simple tool is like, say, re- reparenting. So, so my issue in relationships was enmeshment. I had a really dominant, narcissistic mom, as by the way, a lot of people who were on that pickup artist seduction world did. So a lot of the idea behind that is I was suffocated by the overpowering feminine. I never want to be victim, go back to that story, of the feminine again, so I'm gonna learn a way to empower myself. So that's besides the neurodivergent narrative, that's another group. And out of curiosity, was it, what was your mom situation?

Chris Williamson 1:04:09 Uh, no. I wouldn't have said narcissistic.

Neil Strauss 1:04:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:11 Introverted, um, uh, tried incredibly hard. I'm an only child, so an awful lot of, uh, care and sort of precious attention, uh, placed on me.

Neil Strauss 1:04:22 Yeah. So it could, so and besides narcissist, there could be a, like a super anxious or super depressed parent would also sort of be enmeshing because then you're, their needs come before your own sometimes.

Chris Williamson 1:04:33 What is enmeshment?

Neil Strauss 1:04:34 Oh, really? Okay. Yeah. This, this is like the most important idea. So, I'll do it. I'll finish the third thing and then we'll do enmeshment and then there's another thing where we get back to-

Chris Williamson 1:04:41 There it is, yeah.

Neil Strauss 1:04:42 ... it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:42 No worries.

Neil Strauss 1:04:42 But it's funny. I was like, "How are we gonna?" Um...

Chris Williamson 1:04:43 We're not gonna run out of stuff to talk about. We've got enough there.

Neil Strauss 1:04:45 I know, I know. We're gonna have to stop at some point 'cause-

Chris Williamson 1:04:47 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 1:04:47 ... um, but again, like, uh...

Chris Williamson 1:04:51 Tools to use in the moment when you're in crisis.

Neil Strauss 1:04:53 Yeah, yeah. And by the way, I wanna say one thing, pay a compliment, which is, um, you know, when I listen to your podcast, uh, you really let the guests talk a lot as you're doing so nicely to me.

Chris Williamson 1:05:02 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:05:03 But you're also really like connected and engaged and care about-

Chris Williamson 1:05:06 Thank you.

Neil Strauss 1:05:06 ... what's being said, and you, it's a wonderful balance. I was a little nervous because I love conversation, dialogue that's connected like we're having.

Chris Williamson 1:05:14 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:05:14 And I just, um, and, uh, and you do a great job of, of really thoughtfully listening and, uh, and letting your guests go on for a while. Thank you. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:23 Not at all. I'm enjoy- I'm continuing to draw it out of you. You're a font of interesting things, so let's keep going.

Neil Strauss 1:05:28 (laughs) Okay. Okay, so, so the third thing is tools to use in the moment. So, uh, so meaning that, let's say I learn that I was suffocated by the overwhelming parent. So when, um, Ingrid, my wife at the time, my, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:05:44 Ex-wife, future of my mother child.

Neil Strauss 1:05:45 ... ex, ex-wife, future baby mama.

Chris Williamson 1:05:46 (laughs)

Neil Strauss 1:05:46 I don't know what it is. This is definitely the next book. Whatever this is-

Chris Williamson 1:05:49 Wow.

Neil Strauss 1:05:49 ... this is, this is the book.

Chris Williamson 1:05:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Neil Strauss 1:05:51 Uh, it's the next stage of the life journey, so.

Chris Williamson 1:05:53 Conscious recoupling.

Neil Strauss 1:05:54 Conscious r- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:55 (laughs)

Neil Strauss 1:06:00 So fun, so funny.

Chris Williamson 1:06:03 (laughs)

Neil Strauss 1:06:03 This is gonna be a thing now. It's so ridiculous that someone's gonna hear this.

Chris Williamson 1:06:06 Conscious reparenting, yeah.

Neil Strauss 1:06:09 Yeah. (laughs) So, uh, so the reparenting thing is when we get, you know, triggered or reactive at something our parents, our, our, our partner does, funny that the, I said parent because we're reenacting something that comes from our parents, so they're critical or they're-

Chris Williamson 1:06:23 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:06:24 We ma- we, people make up, "My partner's making me do this." They're not making you do anything. They're not making, being mono- being monogamous, you can literally do what you want, you just, there are just consequences. No one's making, it's all a choice.

Chris Williamson 1:06:33 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:06:34 So, anyway, anything we react to, um, we can stop and so the tool for me was if, even if she was hugging out of love, I'd feel just suffocated by it because my parent's love was so, my mom's love was so needy and it sucked the life out of me, right? So, I would just tell myself, "Hey, it's okay. She's not your mom. She's not trying to suck the life outta you. She just loves you and is affectionate and really appreciates and cares about you, so relax."

Chris Williamson 1:06:59 Just, just to get into the specifics there-

Neil Strauss 1:07:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:00 ... is that you talking to yourself in almost sort of a, "I notice something arises, this emotion arises inside of me. I see it, and then I begin to have a dialogue with myself about what that means"?

Neil Strauss 1:07:10 Yeah, uh, yeah. Having a dialogue with the part of myself that's reacting.

Chris Williamson 1:07:13 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:07:14 We have, I love, you know, gestalt therapy and I love these, um, uh, what's his name, uh, Renpo, uh, I love these, I love looking at ourselves as parts. Uh, I, so I think, I think of, (laughs) I think of like there's a CEO-

Chris Williamson 1:07:28 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:07:28 ... right? That's just your, that's just the, your-... most balanced, stable self. But what happens is some part of yourself takes over. So in this case, it's like the, the, the, the wounded child, right? I'll try not to say inner child. But the wounded child (laughs) who, who, who is like, "Oh, this is familiar."

Chris Williamson 1:07:47 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:07:47 "I better stop this from happening." Right? And then your executive function, your CEO, your admin as you say, says, "Hey, it's okay, I got this. You can relax. She's not your mom."

Chris Williamson 1:07:57 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:07:58 You know, she's just trying to express love.

Chris Williamson 1:07:58 But you need to notice

Chris Williamson 1:08:00 that that arises and step in. This is something I've been thinking about more. I'm doing my first sort of big pass through therapy, um, and I'd done a lot of time doing mindfulness.

Neil Strauss 1:08:08 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08:09 But (clears throat) I actually found that a strong mindfulness practice caused me to let go of emotions before I actually looked at where they came from.

Neil Strauss 1:08:20 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:08:20 That ability to sort of notice something arises and go, "Okay, just release and allow," that's fine. And I was very, very practiced with that. It feels, to me it feels like windscreen wipers. So my practice, uh, from Shinzen Young is, uh, see, hear, feel. So I would swipe left to do see, I would swipe right to do hear, and I would swipe down to do feel.

Neil Strauss 1:08:37 Ooh.

Chris Williamson 1:08:37 And that's the way it would feel in my mind. It's like nothing's happening, right? It's just the way that I'd come to kind of-

Neil Strauss 1:08:43 I love that.

Chris Williamson 1:08:43 ... feel it.

Neil Strauss 1:08:44 I love that. That's really good.

Chris Williamson 1:08:45 Uh-

Neil Strauss 1:08:45 That's really good.

Chris Williamson 1:08:46 And, um, what I noticed and what I've noticed since, since spending a bit more time trying to integrate emotions and thinking about where patterns come from and, and stuff like that, is that the mindfulness practice was fantastic at making me more effective. But because it allowed me... The, the emotions sort of flowed through me like a, a filter or something like that. It, there was, uh, less resistance that just came out, came up and went out. I never asked the question, "Why does this emotion continue to come up?"

Neil Strauss 1:09:12 That's it, that's it. And I, I love what you said (clears throat) and this speaks to like it doesn't actually matter what you do. So whether you're doing reparenting or you're doing see, hear, feel. Is that right?

Chris Williamson 1:09:21 Mm-hmm. Yep.

Neil Strauss 1:09:21 See, hear, feel?

Chris Williamson 1:09:21 Yeah.

Neil Strauss 1:09:22 Um, what you're doing is you're widening the space between the stimulus and your response.

Chris Williamson 1:09:26 Correct. Mindfulness gap.

Neil Strauss 1:09:27 Right, right.

Chris Williamson 1:09:28 Yes.

Neil Strauss 1:09:29 So, so whatever version of that you do or whatever, that's why like people argue over what method's better. (laughs) Like, literally any method that works is good enough, right? For you. If it's working, just keep doing it.

Chris Williamson 1:09:38 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:09:39 So what you're saying is a great example of the tools. So the three steps then are the deep intensive experiences.

Chris Williamson 1:09:44 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:09:45 Uh, the, um, weekly or regular accountability, and the tools in the moment.

Chris Williamson 1:09:51 W- give me one more tool that you've found that's been high value for you.

Neil Strauss 1:09:56 Couple other tools I love. One is, is, uh, the first tool, uh, one is another version of, of widen the space between stimulus and response, is like if, if I can recognize... So I feel like any time I get, any time something goes wrong is like an opportunity to learn about yourself. So I can recognize that if I'm starting to get, uh, anxious about something or upset about something, (clears throat) especially if I'm in a conversation or dialogue with someone I feel may be misunderstood, right? Often maybe I'll feel, might feel misunderstood. And then I'll tr- I'll keep m- trying to drive the point into them to make sure they get it. (laughs) And all it does is irritate them and then I feel more misunderstood, and then I get more like, you know, (laughs) abrasive with trying to make this point and it's just a horrible sequence. So I can see, oh, I'm feeling this sort of, uh, like tightness in my heart and this, um, and sort of this electricity to my wrist, and that's my sign, before my mind even knows it, that I'm starting to get anxious about feeling misunderstood. So then what I'll do is I'll just, whatever I'm at, I'll just pause and I'll take a break for one second. Say I'm on the phone, I'll say, "Hold on one second, I'll be right back." I'll walk away. I'll, I say correct the lie, I'll correct the lie with the truth, "Hey, like you're not being misunderstood. They probably understand you and it's, it's all good. (laughs) Just like, maybe understand them." Cool. Then I pick up the phone, "Sorry about that, so what were you saying?" Or if I'm in a conver- say I'm in the conversation here, I'm like a, I step away to go to the restroom.

Chris Williamson 1:11:20 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:11:20 Let's say I'm in a conversation I can't leave, like we're here in this podcast, right? Um, I think to my head, I'll just switch my position and I'll think, "New moment" and over here, I'm just, there's a new moment over here-

Chris Williamson 1:11:30 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:11:31 ... and I can be a new person.

Chris Williamson 1:11:31 Just reframing it a little bit.

Neil Strauss 1:11:32 Yeah, so-

Chris Williamson 1:11:33 Isn't that funny that that, that relates so similarly to what you were doing in the game? But it's like an internal reframing as opposed to an external reframing.

Neil Strauss 1:11:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:41 Looking to create this different sense for me-

Neil Strauss 1:11:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:44 ... that I feel this way, as opposed to how I want someone else to observe it.

Neil Strauss 1:11:47 Right. The difference is you're, m- when you're, when you're doing this to yourself you're in on the manipulation, (laughs) right?

Chris Williamson 1:11:53 Yeah, you know the magician's trick.

Neil Strauss 1:11:54 Right. And going back to what you were saying about... You asked the question earlier which we didn't get to about relationships and the game and-

Chris Williamson 1:12:00 Mm-hmm.

Neil Strauss 1:12:00 ... is, is this stuff okay to do in a relationship, I think any form of manipulation where the other person isn't aware of the game and the end goals is spiritually wrong.

Chris Williamson 1:12:10 Hmm. Okay. Was there a final modality that you liked from that one? From the third set?

Neil Strauss 1:12:15 Oh, yeah, yeah. There's another one,