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This Is What Billionaires Regret Before Dying - Noah Kagan

Noah Kagan is an entrepreneur, founder of AppSumo and a YouTuber. Does money make you happy? What about a lot of money? Like billions of dollars a lot of money. Noah has spent years around some of the richest people in the world and deconstructed some of their biggest regrets, thinking patterns and hacks for success. Expect to learn the most common traits of super-rich people, the advice Noah wished people would stop talking about, why having a day job can be riskier than starting your own business, how much money Noah spent on coaches, his best tips on how to overcome self-doubt and much more… - 00:00 When Chris Emailed Noah in 2019 08:42 The Pitfalls of Leverage 11:34 Common Traits of Very Wealthy People 16:40 Finding a Specific Niche to Focus on 19:57 Taking a Less Aggressive Strategy in Business 25:53 Is Wealth Worth it? 30:38 The Biggest Regrets of Rich People 35:24 How to Enjoy the Journey of Success More 46:07 Having Faith in Your Mission 51:52 When Can Success Be Enough? 1:02:01 Noah’s Experience With Coaches 1:10:20 Believing That Your Situation is Unique 1:19:56 How We Shift Our Own Narratives 1:24:26 Why Money Isn’t a Good Enough Goal 1:27:28 The Greater Risk of Inaction 1:36:58 Being Comfortable With Asking & Rejection 1:43:29 Where to Find Noah - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Noah KaganguestChris Williamsonhost
Mar 23, 20241h 46mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 8:42

    When Chris Emailed Noah in 2019

    1. NK

      I was so impressed to see that you emailed me in 2019.

    2. CW

      Yeah, tell me about that. You were reading the archive emails back.

    3. NK

      It's just interesting to see who makes it, right? And, uh, I think I emailed you as Million Dollar Weekend was coming out. I was talking to the team and I was like, "Oh, there's a few shows I'd love to be on." And, and you were one of them. Uh, I think Stephanie reached out and we reached out and then it was like, "Yeah, it's gonna happen." I was like, "Oh, that's interesting." And I saw one of your clips about Success Bias, As The World Works. And I was like, "I just want to tell him I love his stuff." And I think that's such a thing that anyone can copy. Like, reach out to someone and just tell them that you've made an impact or that you like what they're doing. And so I, "Let me just search my Gmail." So I searched Chris Williamson in my Gmail, and it was in 2019, January, you said, "Hey, mate." That's how you British like-

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. NK

      ... you like to address us. And I... And you said, "Hey, I'd love for you to come on the show." And I just couldn't believe... And then what was even crazier, I was reading it to my girlfriend today. I said, "Hey, I'm busy with my, with AppSumo. Can you follow up in March?" You said, "No problem." You followed up in March. I said, "I'm busy in March." Can you follow up in two months?" You followed up every single time. And it's... You don't know who's really gonna make it, but it said a lot about your character that you kept following up, following up, and following up. And I, I always admire people that follow up.

    6. CW

      Thank you.

    7. NK

      So it's cool that we're, we're here ............................

    8. CW

      I appreciate that. Yeah, man. It's come full circle. It's only, what, five years later or whatever-

    9. NK

      (laughs)

    10. CW

      ... but finally, we find... I've g- I got you in the end, you motherfucker.

    11. NK

      There, it happens, yes. (laughs)

    12. CW

      I got you in the end. Um, no, yeah, I think... Look, there's a lot of disadvantages to being, uh, obsessive and compulsive, like, uh, even if it doesn't meet the medical criteria of, of that.

    13. NK

      (laughs)

    14. CW

      Um, there are a lot of disadvantages, like you, you, you see things and you don't let things go and it causes you to move slowly. Like, I find, um... And a lot of the people who also have an attention to detail that's probably over the top, um, will notice that they leave things on the table because they can't move as quickly as people who are a little bit more blase.

    15. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      You know, if you're able to just, like, move fast, break shit, like, that whole kind of, like, Silicon Valley SF thing, that's never been me. It's never, ever, ever been me. And I've kind of... I've come to terms with that now, and I've realized where my competitive advantage lies, and it's being thorough and, and paying attention to detail and winning in the weeds. And other people can win with velocity, but that's not the game. I, I, I would need to, I don't know, just permanently be on, like, MDMA or something if I was gonna do that.

    17. NK

      (laughs)

    18. CW

      You know, that's the only way I'd be able to get away with it. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, playing to your strengths, um, whether it's in business, whether it's in content creation, whether it's in finding a partner, you know, uh, uh, uh, crafting some sort of, uh, persona, uh, uh, outward brand for whatever it is that you're trying to build, I think that all of those things, playing to your strengths, because that's swimming downstream. Like, if I was trying to be the move fast, break shit guy, things would go badly.

    19. NK

      (laughs)

    20. CW

      But for me to be the detail-oriented, like, sprinkling of autism guy, piece by piece.

    21. NK

      (laughs)

    22. CW

      Super easy.

    23. NK

      Do you... Do you think that's ever held you back? Or do you... How do you think that's held you back in areas? And then how did you get the podcast started if you're someone who takes a long time to do things?

    24. CW

      Hmm. Uh, yeah, it's definitely held me back. Uh, but it's very interesting. Being detail-oriented and being obsessive about things results in you being held back in ways that are very invisible. Being moving fast and breaking stuff causes you to be held back or to fail in ways that are incredibly public. You know what I mean? So, a lot of this stuff will be, um... I- I've basically launched zero businesses since running the podcast, even though we reach like half a billion people a year. I haven't done any of that because I move slowly and take my time with things and I don't tend to, like, experiment publicly all that much, apart from with the one thing that I do all of my experimentation with, which is the show. Uh, when it came to launching the show back in 2018, it took me six months to come up with a name, um, uh, come up with a name and come up with the branding and, and pick how I was gonna make it all work. So, um, yeah, for, for all that "Perfectionism is procrastination masquerading as quality control," and "I do believe it"-

    25. NK

      (laughs)

    26. CW

      ... and all the rest of it, there's an upper bound on, uh, on how quickly certain people can move at stuff. And it's just like, all right, well, focus on the weeds instead.

    27. NK

      I think what I've observed is people have it backwards, is that we stick too long on things not working and not enough on things that are working. And the things that were not working, we could find out really quickly, maybe in a weekend.

    28. CW

      Yeah.

    29. NK

      That, that's more my style. And then once you find the thing that working, how do you actually stick with it?

    30. CW

      Yeah. It's... I, I was reading this Paul Graham essay, How to Do Great Work.

  2. 8:42 – 11:34

    The Pitfalls of Leverage

    1. CW

      one of the other memes that-

    2. NK

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      ... I wish it caught hold and then it's been, uh, sort of bastardized the most. Someone asked me, "What's a piece of business advice that you think needs to get in the bin?" And, um, leverage, despite the fact that I love it-

    4. NK

      Hmm.

    5. CW

      ... has also been completely used and, and repurposed in ways that are wrong. So people start learning about leverage and they think, "Oh my God, my inputs can be magnified so I get more outputs." Fantastic. But they then-

    6. NK

      (laughs)

    7. CW

      ... start to forget that there are like high-touch advantages to people who are prepared to not use leverage. So for instance, my background's in club promo. When I first launched my podcast in 2018, I've still got the messages in my WhatsApp. You used to be able to chunk your address book together into 50-person broadcast lists on WhatsApp. And I had two and a half thousand contacts from being a club promoter for a decade and a half. So I put 50, 50, 50, 50, 50, all the way up to two and-

    8. NK

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      ... a half thousand, and sent every single one of them a message saying, "Hi, I've just launched a new podcast. It would mean a lot to me if you could subscribe on Apple Podcasts. Here's the link." And I did that just myself on my phone for like weeks. It took weeks to do. But that resulted in us getting a ton of, uh, reviews at the start.

    10. NK

      What were you telling yourself at that time? 'Cause I think that's the part. People might hear this, and a lot of people aspire to s- to have a business, uh, uh, be an entrepreneur, which guess what? You don't have to be tall. Like, you're fit. You don't have to be fit to be successful in entrepreneurship. You could be anywhere in the world, right? (laughs) Like how great is that? Like you could be born into anything and be successful. But I, I think it's interesting people never get started. So I'm curious what you were going through in your head, 'cause a lot of people feel like, "Oh, I don't wanna bother people. I don't wanna ask people." That's something I've, I've learned is one of the things holding most people back. They're afraid of asking.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, uh, that, that fear or that bar to get over is completely removed by being a club promoter.

    12. NK

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      It just doesn't exist. Like we've spent our entire careers sending people unwarranted, unsolicited messages asking if they're going out on a Tuesday, a cold, wet Tuesday in the middle of October.

    14. NK

      (laughs)

    15. CW

      You're fine with sending people messages. You're fine with asking for things. Charlie Hooper tried to reverse engineer some of the stuff that I do or he said that I do, and he came up with one that I hadn't realized that I do, uh, when it comes to networking. And one of them is, uh, I assume familiarity, so I'll send him messages that are like, there's no "Hey," there's no "How are you?", there's no nothing. It's just like the meat and potatoes of what you would send your friend. You know, it's just, uh, "Awesome article, you gotta read this." Like just that, without any couching.

    16. NK

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      And it's, there's a degree of familiarity in that, um, because that's what we used to do with nightlife. But I-

    18. NK

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      ... basically my, what I'm saying is become a club promoter for 15 years-

    20. NK

      (laughs)

    21. CW

      ... and everything will be fine.

  3. 11:34 – 16:40

    Common Traits of Very Wealthy People

    1. CW

      One, one of the things that I love about your YouTube channel, you've managed to get yourself into some very interesting situations with some very wealthy people. You've spent a lot of time interviewing millionaires and then worked-

    2. NK

      Billionaires.

    3. CW

      ... your way up to billionaires as well.

    4. NK

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      What are the common traits that you found, some of the common commonalities between a lot of the very wealthy people that you've spoken to?

    6. NK

      Yeah, and I think what's interesting is going back to promoting, it's asking. I just asked different people if they knew billionaires. Anyone can ask. And it's a skill you can get better at because you did it yourself, you asked and asked and asked. So when you had a, your own product-... your show. You asked. So one of the things that I would say is, it's, uh, similar to what you're already talking about in your show, all of the billionaires, not, not, ch- some of them, all the billionaires I've worked for Mo- Mark Zuckerberg, Dustin Moskovitz, Adam D'Angelo, Charlie Cheever, you know, mount- had, uh, be around Peter Thiel a little bit, billionaires, they all got rich on one thing. So if you think about yourself, you're like, "I'm just doing the show." And most other people are like, "Diversify and do all these other things." Like, for myself, I really only got rich on AppSumo. I've done a lot of stuff and I've tried so many things you've never heard of. And the same thing with these billionaires, like, I was in FedEx Kinko's, and the polar filly he found in Kinko's sold it for 2.4 billion. He's like, "I just did copiers (laughs) for 34 years." That's a long time. And I was joking, uh, the guy I bought my house from is a football player, he's a kicker. Do you know, uh, I was joking about it this morning, do you know what his day is like? His, what his day is like as a professional NFL kicker? Think about his Monday.

    7. CW

      Lots of kicking.

    8. NK

      And then Tuesday, and then Wednesday, and then, okay, at night he watches kicking, and then Wednesday and Thursday and Friday, and then he kicks for 10 seconds on Sundays.

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. NK

      And I ... He loves kicking and he's a great person. I think it's finding the thing that the world wants and that you enjoy doing that you can do, ideally, I'd say 10 years, 20 years. Most of the billionaires, I would say the second point, once they found the one thing that's working, they stick with it for an extraordinary long period of time. Extraordinary. All right? Almost none of them got rich in, uh, in one way, like, very quickly. I, I generally believe if it's coming ... If it works quickly, great, but if it, the, the business gets built slowly. It goes away slowly, but it compounds-

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. NK

      ... time and time and time. So I think that's a huge thing that doesn't get talked about, 'cause it's like these guys aren't getting rich overnight, they're getting rich in 20 years. The other thing, uh, a few other things that I've noticed is that they're working in billion or trillion dollar markets, right? And then, a lot of it, let's even take AppSumo, we're, we're, you know, almost $100 million a year in revenue doing software deals. That's, yes, we're skilled, yes, we've stuck with it 15 years, but also software went from there was 10 software products available, now and 15 years later there's tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of software products. So we were in a good wave, and so being mindful, okay, YouTube, if I started in that, that's might get bigger, so can you look at Google Trends? Can you have your own intuition? Like, how can you look at some data to get that indication? And so social networking, there wasn't any, Zuckerberg, right? Kinker, uh, Kinko's, there wasn't copiers and things like that. Uh, basements, Larry Janesky, you know, there wasn't as many, anyone doing basements and his, his funny line that I loved was, "We showed up on time and sober." So professional blue collar work. And, you know, energy traders and all these different things that I've interviewed, they worked in areas where you can make that amount of money, and I'm noticing, like, an, a funny example you could think about at home is physical therapy, or a masseuse. I have a masseuse, she comes to my house, shout out Claire. She gets paid 140 a, a session, which is great. It's like how many sessions does she need to do to make a million? That's a lot of backs, right? Okay, well maybe she'll hire people. Great. Or then maybe she'll create the platform. Great. Or maybe she'll create software that can go to local businesses as well as online businesses, and so I think you have to be mindful of the, the opportunity you're thinking in, uh, for the market size. And I would say last thing from billionaires, I don't know if all of them were very happy. I'm pretty happy being a multimillionaire. (laughs) I'm really happy being a multimillionaire, and I think when you hear people say, "I want to be a billionaire," none of these billionaires were like, "We want to be billionaires." They were very excited about problems. And I, I, I wouldn't say they're, I don't have data, I didn't survey like, you're happy or not happy, 'cause it's also subjective, but I don't know if a lot of them seemed really content with life. I got to interact with one of them, and I won't, I won't call him out, but he, like, uh, it was just some crazy shit. And I was like, "Wow, this guy's got a lot of things going on." And I th- well, the reason I left Silicon Valley, the reason, you know, for me doing a lot of things is like I wanted to, I want to live. I'm not here just to make so much money that I can have the nicest cemetery grave.

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. NK

      Right? (laughs) Like, okay, yes, I want a karaoke machine at my cemetery grave, I think that would be really fun. Uh, really thinking how cool that would be to come over and, like, party with me, it's like, << Do you feel it? >> But I, uh, I would say a lot of them seem to regret that they didn't balance the time with their families, 'cause on your, you know, deathbed people will know this stuff, but we get very fixated on how much money, what's, like, how am I comparing to this other person. Uh, when, you know, my girlfriend who's phenomenal, she, she doesn't care. She's like, "I just care about who you are." And I, I think a lot of the people aiming sometimes for billion are so obsessed with that, miss out on the overall balance of, for themselves, for their family, for their friends 'cause they're so obsessed with the work.

    15. CW

      Dude, so much to go through there. That's really-

    16. NK

      Yeah. (laughs)

    17. CW

      ... that's really, that's really great. Okay.

  4. 16:40 – 19:57

    Finding a Specific Niche to Focus on

    1. CW

      So, um, first off, the doing one thing, going narrow and incredibly deep. The, very, very correct that there is this, you've got something going on, now it's time to diversify after having done it for a s-

    2. NK

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      ... a small amount of time. Um, that doesn't ... That, uh, really, really mega wealth, and mega, mega success, I don't look at many people, unless you're a personal brand and what you're doing is kind of bestowing, like you're, if you're Shaq, right? Or, like, if you're bestowing your, uh, seal of approval on multiple other businesses, but you're still only working on you, right? It's still, it's not Shaq m- m- giving himself a moniker or, like, becoming a, you know, a cri- caped crusader at night or something like that, it's still just him. So that's very interesting. The consistency thing and being prepared to play long-term games as well, makes complete sense. Uh, finding a very large ocean, one that's li- hopefully getting bigger, I think, you know, the podcasting audience is growing at around about 30%, between 20% and 30% a year-ish, something like that. So if you just hold onto your market share, guess what?

    4. NK

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      You get to grow at 20% to 30% per year.

    6. NK

      I, I would think with that question specifically, are you seeing a market that's going to be bigger and o- others don't realize it's going to be bigger.

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. NK

      When I started AppSumo, I, I, I was always fixated on the problem. Most people when they're starting business are fixated on solutions. AI, don't care.... it's like (laughs) crypto, don't care. What does it solve for the actual end person? And ideally it's yourself as a customer, but also others. And what are you seeing that if this problem actually helps someone, can there be a lot more people in the future that you can help? And so when I started AppSumo, I went to my mentor and I was like, "Hey, I got this idea, software deals. I think it's cool. I- I like... And all these businesses have the problem getting customers. I can solve that." He's like, "Yeah, it's not gonna work. And the only way you can find out is with the customer." And very quickly I tested it, people wanted it, and I was like, "Oh." So I- I think it was inspired by Mark Manson, but it's like find something that other people are doubting or not sure, get validation of it, if you can, very quickly, and then later, I would say, if you stick with that, it can prove to be a very successful business. 'Cause if there's market opportunity and then there's market awareness, there's market prices. There's market... Everyone's then trying to get in it. You follow?

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    10. NK

      So you have to find the thing where it's like a lot of my best marketing is I found things before everybody else found it, and I took full advantage of it.

    11. CW

      But they're gonna find it eventually.

    12. NK

      Yeah, I mean, when I... After AppSumo, I think six other people, maybe 10, 15, copied me. They're like, "Oh, software deals, that's cool. I'll just copy him." And then none of them took it seriously. I think that was... Among, um, a few other things. They took it as a hobby, right? It's like, "Okay, I'm gonna learn to swim, but I'm gonna swim maybe once a week." That's fine, I'm swimming every day if I'm trying to get better.

    13. CW

      You're not gonna become a professional.

    14. NK

      There's a difference between an amateur and a professional. There's a difference between, like, major leagues and minor leagues, and a lot of the time, it's just that, are you putting in the effort and the focus on the one thing? And I've tried it, like, I've... You know, when I was doing social media, launching my YouTube channel, I tried every platform. Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitter, blogging. And I was like, "It's really hard to win all of these." Even podcasting.

    15. CW

      Yep.

    16. NK

      And it's like, "Let me just pick one that I feel like the work I'm doing has proportional to the results in terms of the views I'm getting relative to the effort." And I- I've always thought for me it was Law of 100. So it's like, "How do I do 100 videos before I quit?" 'Cause I think we all know we quit too soon. Everyone has. So I- I'm curious for your journey as well how you've not quit. I think that's... Most pe-

    17. CW

      I enjoy it, man. Uh, you know,

  5. 19:57 – 25:53

    Taking a Less Aggressive Strategy in Business

    1. CW

      I- I did this long before anybody listened. Like, if you look at the graph of the show's growth over time, it's flat for three and a half years. Three and a half years in, we'd had Peterson on the show, so it's still flat comparatively to then. Only 18 months ago did I do Rogan. And it was... If you look back, uh, to the point at which I go on Rogan, it's like that. It's so small. We did more plays in December of last year than in the entire first three and a half years of the show.

    2. NK

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      Um, we accumulated more subscribers in one month than we did in the entire last three and a half years of the- the first three and a half years of the show. 85% of the audience found us last year, and we were at half a million subs at the beginning of last year, and 85% of them found us. It's just- it... The- the compounding, and this is going back to that whole gram thing that I was talking about before. As time progresses, each unit of your effort-

    4. NK

      Yes.

    5. CW

      ... will be worth so much more, and that's why the stick with it muscle is something that's very important. But the easiest way to stick with it is to enjoy what you're doing or to do it regardless of what the extern- external accolades are. If you would do this thing for free, you will win, because the person that loves walking-

    6. NK

      (laughs)

    7. CW

      ... will way outwalk the person who has to walk every single day. "Oh my God, I've got to get myself up and go for another walk again." It's, uh, that guy just want... He... Try and stop him. He just wants to walk. Uh, so for me, yeah, I found the intersection of- of having conversations, learning, and curiosity, and that was the show, so...

    8. NK

      Have you ever given up to soon or wish you would have stuck with something? 'Cause I think everyone has. Everyone... Like, my podcast, I started it, crushed, and then it wasn't at 100,000 downloads an episode...

    9. CW

      Bailed out.

    10. NK

      ... bailed out.

    11. CW

      Not good enough.

    12. NK

      And I gave up for six months, and I came back and now I'm at 7,000 an episode. And I- I would beg for 30 thou. (laughs)

    13. CW

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. NK

      And I- I'm happy with that and I focused on other things, but it was a good reminder of like... Same thing with AppSumo, same exact thing with you, where first year, 300,000, second year, three million, then we were flat. And then last year was 76.7 million.

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. NK

      Right? And what's crazy is we've had... And it's amazing, you know, the partners are happy, customers are happy, team is happy. What's amazing though, we have days now that were the same as years.

    17. CW

      Yeah, crazy.

    18. NK

      And so I- I think one of the things that I've been really reflecting on my leadership style and business strategist, is less aggressiveness. I know that's counterintuitive when m- most people talk about and s- sounds like... I'm not saying this is necessarily your approach, but if you're less aggressive, it's more sustainable.

    19. CW

      Well, you- you can jog for longer than you can sprint, right?

    20. NK

      Yeah, and I...

    21. CW

      And- and psychologically that is-

    22. NK

      Yes.

    23. CW

      ... that is the way. You're- you're dealing with this stamina bar inside of your mind-

    24. NK

      (laughs)

    25. CW

      ... that you don't know how... You don't know where it is, like playing a computer game, but you don't know where the bottom is, and you're just thinking, "I just presume that you need to do the thing that you're doing for another 10 years. Just presume that you always need... Okay, could I keep doing this for another 10 years?"

    26. NK

      Can you say presume again? You say it so cool.

    27. CW

      Presume.

    28. NK

      God, that's good.

    29. CW

      Yeah, I know. All right, so...

    30. NK

      Hold on, 'cause st- so this is the thing, uh, and I think this is such a powerful moment, most people just know it's start. Most people are like, "I'd like to have a podcast. I'd like to have an e-commerce business. I'd like to even have a wife." And so for me, what I've noticed is like, what's the thing you could do right now? Like, everyone could put out a show. And for me, and it sounds similar to you, I love doing it. Like, I've been putting out stuff since 2000 before the internet was around, right? (laughs) I think, you're what, how old? 23? Maybe four?

  6. 25:53 – 30:38

    Is Wealth Worth it?

    1. CW

      on at the end, which I was really fascinated to get into is billionaires and whether or not they say that wealth is worth it. You've sat down opposite these guys that are worth an awful lot of money. What do you see in their eyes when you talk to them?

    2. NK

      It's the things unsaid. And one that stood out was Paul Ruffillo found in Kinko's, sold 2.4 billion.

    3. CW

      What's Kinko's?

    4. NK

      FedEx.

    5. CW

      Right.

    6. NK

      You know FedEx has stores?

    7. CW

      Yes.

    8. NK

      The, the ones you go in. Every single one of those stores was a Kinko's.

    9. CW

      Okay. So that was the brand before FedEx? Right.

    10. NK

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      Fine. Okay.

    12. NK

      So back in the day, my f- my father came to America, sold copiers, so I'm familiar with the copiers and fax businesses. And, uh, yeah, so all these stores that had copy machines around 'cause that was the way you printed things back in the day. And so one of the things he said, w- and that kind of saddened me a little bit, was he's like, "I was stressed for every year of 34 years." I was like, "Ah, that doesn't sound really enjoyable." And I, is there, is there other ways? And there are other ways, but that was definitely telling. The other people out there, I would say John Paul Mitchell, uh, John Paul DeJoria, you know, Paul Mitchell Haircare, Patron Tequila, he was one of the few where I really, I really idolize him. I love that guy. He doesn't have a computer, doesn't have a computer on his desk, nothing, and he seems very kind to himself and to others. And I felt really inspired by his story where his whole thing was... And he was homeless twice. His story is kind of crazy, right? The things that I really took away was I felt like, one, he didn't try to do a lot of stuff. He's like, "Let me find something I really believe in, just one thing." If you think about it, he really has two products, hair care and tequila. That's it. That's it. Both billion dollar business. He sold Patron for three and a half billion. The other thing he said that I thought was really telling and interesting was selling is the most important skill for him. Selling. And he says, "I love to be in the reorder business. So I try to find a product that's the best." And at the time, now it's obvious, but again, we come back to non-obvious obvious things, there wasn't a $30 bottle of tequila.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. NK

      Now $100 bottle of tequila is like the norm. And he said, "People have to reorder it." And to your original point, to, to my experiences with AppSumo, I'm the customer, YouTube, I'm my watcher, my book, I'm the reader. (laughs) He tried the tequila, Patron. He's like, "Holy shit, there's nothing else. Like, I love it." And this is the part, again, that people never hear these parts of the story. He spent two years without a lot of sales. He just believed it though. He's like, "This is, there's something here with it." And I think you have to... And same when I worked at Facebook, we saw the early data of people going insane on this, even though externally people didn't know how big we were gonna be. And so I think you have to have some early c- like, success or win to feel like, "Okay, I like it and people seem to like it. I'm gonna stick with that." 'Cause I think what happens is people find something no one wants and they stick (laughs) with that probably too long. And so with him it was after two years, finally, I don't know if it was the Oscars or some finally huge celebrity thing, finally like, okay, now people know about it and they're like, "Wow, Patron Tequila." And I think seven years later, then it finally sold.

    15. CW

      I had a conversation with Dean Phillips, who is a Democratic candidate for the presidency this year.

    16. NK

      Okay.

    17. CW

      But he's also the guy who found Belvedere Vodka...

    18. NK

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      ... and, uh, Talenti Gelato.

    20. NK

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      Both of them.

    22. NK

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      Uh, and with Belvedere Vodka, they were pretty flat, pretty flat, believed in it, believed in it, believed in it, and then one morning he puts on MTV and Jay-Z's there with just bottles and bottles and bottles of Belvedere.

    24. NK

      (laughs)

    25. CW

      And everything just goes completely berserk after that.

    26. NK

      Yeah. You can definitely increase your chances of luck, right? If you... But it's not sitting at home waiting for it or looking in the mirror trying to manifest it, like there was John Paul DeJoria selling it and selling it and selling it. And so I love that he talked about the reorder business, right? Are you selling a one-off or something that, like a podcast, like maybe people wanna keep listening to it. And then I, I would say last thing that I admired about him, and I'll, I'll contrast it with another person as well. W- the day he sold his company, he donated 50 million bucks, and I think a lot of people are like, "Oh, you know, I'm gonna donate or I'm gonna do these things," and it's kind of bullshit. It's not authentic. And it reflected to me how genuine he is about being just a kind person. And I felt like he... To me, in my interview with him, in the hour and a half I got to spend with him at his house, it was just like, "Wow, what a person who seems to be content. He's got enough." And I think most of the other billionaires I've met, I don't know if it's ever enough and it's like, well, you're just gonna never be fully content with life and-

    27. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    28. NK

      I don't know, I think that's something I've worked on in the past few years, just like, "Is this enough money?" Yeah. "Do I have a great enough girlfriend?" Not great enough. She's amazing. (laughs)

    29. CW

      (laughs)

    30. NK

      I have an amazing girlfriend. You know, like, "Do I have enough attention?" Right? Otherwise, it's this external chase that just can never end.

  7. 30:38 – 35:24

    The Biggest Regrets of Rich People

    1. NK

      like, "Holy shit."

    2. CW

      What are the biggest regrets of rich people?

    3. NK

      Uh, the family. It's al- almost always the family. It's like, "I just wasn't there with my family." So, they got divorced, the kids don't really interact with them, or maybe they ideally do. Um, and I'd also say there's some level of specific billionaire, it's just like, it's never enough and he's still out there chasing it.

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. NK

      And I think that level of dissatisfaction, which is helpful in being an entrepreneur. An entrepreneur is someone who says, "Hey, I have a problem, I can do something about it." Great. Eventually though, you might need to be satisfied (laughs) that the problem is solved or that you can be content with dissatisfaction and satisfaction. There's a, uh- With both those feelings.

    6. CW

      ... there's an idea that I came up with that it turns out there was already a name for-

    7. NK

      (laughs)

    8. CW

      ... uh, which I fucking hate it when that happens. I'm like-

    9. NK

      Dude, they're all thought of. Yeah.

    10. CW

      ... "I'm forging new cognitive ground here. Let me explain the world of psychology." Um, so I called it the vestigial pattern bias, and it was already called the Einstellung effect. So, do you know why QWERTY keyboards are QWERTY? Why they have that, those letters at the top?

    11. NK

      It's not the fastest. Uh, I don't recall.

    12. CW

      So, when typewriters were first made, if you have letters next to each other that are commonly used, they can often stick. If you try and use one then the other, they'll stick and both will fire when you only meant to hit one. So, what they did was they tried to create a map of the keys where letters that were commonly used were not together so much, and that would free this up. So this is, it's called path dependency, right? It's the same reason why, um, railway tracks are now just like locked in. Like, at what point are we able to change the width of railway tracks from-

    13. NK

      (laughs)

    14. CW

      ... whatever they were originally? So the-

    15. NK

      Okay.

    16. CW

      There's actually a myth. This isn't true, and I propagated some disinformation. Uh, there's a myth that the-

    17. NK

      (laughs)

    18. CW

      ... the size of the space shuttle is the width of two horses' asses.

    19. NK

      (laughs)

    20. CW

      And it's not true. It's not true.

    21. NK

      Everyone.

    22. CW

      Sorry. Like, I must apologize to the internet. My point being the path dependency is there is a pattern that existed before, and you're kind of locked in as you move forward. I think that there's an equivalent here with, um, people that want to improve and grow their business. That, especially when you begin, you're the guy that, uh, d- puts 1,000 people in a spreadsheet, or you're the guy that splits up 2,500 people into 50-person broadcast lists and sends stuff out individually to them, you're the person that follows up every other month for six months to some guest that doesn't know who the fuck you are. Like, that is a very specific skill set, and it's very, very useful in the beginning, but it is a fuel that holds you back when you get later down the line.

    23. NK

      Yes.

    24. CW

      The tools that got you here won't get you there.

    25. NK

      Yes.

    26. CW

      And letting go of that is particularly difficult, because you think, well, you have proof, especially if you come from a working class background, especially if you come from that. Spit and sawdust, I'm from the northeast of the UK, you know, a 30,000 pound wage there is like a f- you've done really fucking well. So, these are people that earn their stripes. These are people that just, you know, roll the sleeves up and get back to work. Then realizing that y- the skill set is now to l- relinquish all of that, to tell other people, to encourage other people, to teach other people, to be able to do that on your behalf is, it's just a completely new skill set. It's a completely new skill set.

    27. NK

      What happens when you arrive? (laughs) I, I, I resonate that so much. Uh, in my 20s, I was really angry and bitter. I got fired at Facebook, I got fired at Mint.com. And I'm like, "Holy shit, this is great motivation." Like, "That's great fuel." And at some point though, you know, all my content I say is for the underdog. And someone said to me like, "I don't think you're an underdog anymore."

    28. CW

      You're not the underdog anymore. No.

    29. NK

      And-

    30. CW

      No.

  8. 35:24 – 46:07

    How to Enjoy the Journey of Success More

    1. CW

      to think about the arriving part and about the, what does it mean to let go of what used to fuel you? Like that's very... I think a lot of people have this concern, uh, and I hear this quite regularly. I did this live tour, uh, toward the backend of last year, which was fun. I did Dubai, the UK, Ireland, Canada-

    2. NK

      Oh, wow.

    3. CW

      ... US. We were everywhere. Like 17 shows in 28 days or something. It was really fun. And one of the most common questions that people asked, a couple of them, um, "How do I know if the thing that I'm about to pursue or thinking about pursuing or pursuing is the right thing?" So-

    4. NK

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      ... um, like optionality and multiplicity of options is a challenge, and I get swamped with the paradox of choice basically, is, is that one. And then another one that was really common was, um, "I'm scared to gra- congratulate myself too much, because if I do, I'm worried that I'm going to kill my drive and my motivation-

    6. NK

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CW

      ... to keep going forward." Uh, and I used to have that.In my experience, I'd be interested to know your thoughts, if you are the sort of person that's sufficiently driven, that also has the ability to do that level of introspection, your drive is like a nuclear reactor inside of you that just isn't going to stop. And by the time that you've got to the stage where you can ask that question, because you've achieved maybe a bit of success or- or comfort or whatever-

    8. NK

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... the habit and the consistency and the momentum is just... uh, you're freewheeling downhill at 100 miles an hour now-

    10. NK

      (laughs)

    11. CW

      ... and you're like, "I can try and pump the brakes, but it doesn't really work, and if I take my foot off the accelerator, guess what? We still go quicker."

    12. NK

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      So, uh, yeah those were, those were two interesting things, but I think the, uh, the fear of being thankful, uh, being grateful, it's like, this is my edge. My edge is my, my bitterness, my resentment, my, uh, desire to prove people wrong, my underdog story that I continue to tell myself. This is where I get my fuel from. This is what pushes me forward. I don't think that it's tru-... uh, it may be what gets people started, but it- it doesn't seem to be what keeps healthy people going.

    14. NK

      I would- I would agree. I- I- I think you can end up in the same destination, it's just more, how do you wanna feel along the way? And I- and myself, uh, a l- I'm- I'm like the worst person in the world to myself. I think we all are actually, for- for the most part. And one of the things I reflected on turning 40 recently was, like, "Wow, I could've gotten here just in a lot friendlier of a way." (laughs) Like, it didn't have to be literally, "Oh, you're guilting about you drank too much," or, "Why does this business fail?" Or, "Why does this girl suck?" Or, "How come you're not doing better here?" And it's like, who are you talking to? And so one of my buddies taught me this thing a few years ago, where it's like anytime a negative thing you criticize yourself, just say a positive thing right afterwards. And it- it's silly. It's silly. A lot of a sudden it's like a million dollar week. It's, like, kinda little silly things, but you start doing it, and I'll start doing it on the stupidest stuff. And then I've noticed now, I don't think about it anymore, but when I try to usually guilt myself, it doesn't come up. And I'll do silly... Like, I'm mountain biking and I remember I went over a rock, and I was like, "Good job."

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. NK

      And I was like, "Who the fuck said that?" Like, "Where did that come from?"

    17. CW

      (laughs) What are you? A disapproving, fucking, like, PE coach? Like, who is it?

    18. NK

      Yeah, but it's- it- dude, this is for all of us, man. Like, "Oh, my dad or my person would be disappointed in me." Who? Who is there?

    19. CW

      There's no one there.

    20. NK

      Who's that voice? You know, like, The Surrender Experiment, I don't know if you've read that.

    21. CW

      Yes, by Michael Singer? Yeah.

    22. NK

      Pfft. Gang- gang buster book. I love that one. And it- it's just noticing this- these negative things that we're criticizing. But it doesn't mean that we can't acknowledge it. Like, "Hey, you did something wrong." Like, I wrote an article that I sent to Nir Eyal, and he said, "Hey, it sucked." And I was like, "Yeah, he's right," but I didn't have to be mean and take myself down in that moment.

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    24. NK

      It could be, "Yeah, he's right. I think I can be better here. That was great feedback. Thank you, Nir." And then I went and made it better, and he was like, "Good article." And I was like, "Yeah, I know. It is good, 'cause I just- I- I put more effort into it. I'm proud of it." And I think we can- if we're all more m- mindful of that, and just even small moments, like cooking, or as we're talking to other people, or... I was on a show yesterday, and I was like, "I don't know if I did my best." And guess what? That's okay. I can get better.

    25. CW

      Yeah.

    26. NK

      And I can ask them, like, "Hey, did you like the show? What did you guys think? Give me feedback." "Actually, I thought you were good." Hmm. Okay.

    27. CW

      Interesting.

    28. NK

      Yeah. So that's definitely something where, uh, years now, maybe past three years, it's just, like, any negative that you say about yourself, just at least try to say a positive right after. It's okay to have a negative thought. You can't change that. That's not gonna go away. But the more you recognize the positive in us, which we all have way more than we realize, that you just do that over and over and over and over and over again, you're gonna be like, overall eventually you're, like, "Ah, a pretty good person."

    29. CW

      There's a lesson that the internet seems determined to not learn-

    30. NK

      (laughs)

  9. 46:07 – 51:52

    Having Faith in Your Mission

    1. CW

      so the, the, the looking back-

    2. NK

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      And it's that insight that the resentment, the pain, the bitterness is really, really potent fuel to get you started, but it's pretty toxic to keep you going. But I really don't know how you have proof that this is an effective strategy and letting go of something that you know works to be like, "Oh, yeah, like, you know, I did the, uh, I covered every, um, email, I ensured that all of the stuff I was, every single Slack message, I made sure that I was on top." Whatever it is, like the level of attention to detail or the level of bitterness or the whatever it is that you do, and then to go, "And now it's time for me to transcend or, you know, grow out of that somehow."

    4. NK

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      Uh, I, that's really hard, but Aubrey Marcus, when he released his book, and this is at the announcement, I think, for it hitting the New York Times list, maybe like four or five years ago, and he gives this speech, and it sounds very similar to something you were talking about. He said, "I spent so much of my life terrified of what I was going to become and whether I was going to be right here, right now. God, how much time did I waste afraid I wasn't going to be right here, right now. If I could change, the only thing I'd change about my whole life would be fearing less that I wouldn't get right here, the place that I was going anyway. I wouldn't change all the mistakes and mishaps. I needed those, but all the constant worry that I wasn't going to make it, that took me out of enjoying the moment. It took me out of enjoying these experiences, smiling or eating my lunch or doing whatever I was doing. Know your mission. Have faith you're going to get there. Wherever you go, it's going to be all right. Just find ways to get out of your head."

    6. NK

      Holy fuck balls, that was great. Shout out Aubrey, man.

    7. CW

      Phenomenal.

    8. NK

      Thank you, Aubrey.

    9. CW

      Phenomenal.

    10. NK

      Yeah, it's thinking that the failures aren't so bad. We ourselves are not so bad. One of my best friends, Tynan... And again, here's a hack in life, just be around positive people. I know it sounds silly, but in your town, if you're around people that are like, "Hey, you can leave here. Hey, you can do anything you want," maybe it's online, I don't know if that, that was the case, but I know for Tynan, he's always saying, "Noah, your life is awesome, and it can get better." And he'd tell me it all the time, and it's like, that's a great person to be around. And so noticing-

    11. CW

      George Mack has this idea of sofa friends and treadmill friends. So some friends-

    12. NK

      (laughs)

    13. CW

      ... after you spend time with them, you need to go lie on the sofa, and other friends, after you've spent time with them, you, you want to go and run on a treadmill.

    14. NK

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      And you should aspire to have as many treadmill friends-

    16. NK

      Treadmill's good.

    17. CW

      ... or a Tynan, uh-

    18. NK

      Get a Tynan in your life.

    19. CW

      Yeah.

    20. NK

      And I mean, uh, the other thing (laughs) I've done, I mean, I record my conversations with him, so I'll listen to them back.

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. NK

      And that's, uh, whether you put it out publicly or just for yourself, it's been helpful. I, I think one of the transformative... 'Cause I'm trying to... I loved your post about success, 'cause it's easy when people are successful, but they don't have a lot of podcasts of all the people who've failed.

    23. CW

      Yeah.

    24. NK

      Right? Like those don't, it's not, it's, "Okay, what are you gonna..." Maybe you'll learn from that too. And so I'm trying to reflect like, where was this transformative moment? And I don't think there was one definitive like-

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. NK

      ... "Okay, it changed everything," but if I had to summarize and try to boil it down, it's when I stopped avoiding. When I stopped... Uh, you know, my, my old therapist would say, "The only way in is through," and so I quit his therapy and I found a new one. But (laughs) -

    27. CW

      (laughs)

    28. NK

      ... afterwards-

    29. CW

      I don't like (laughs) ... I like, "The only way through is around."

    30. NK

      Yeah, just like, "What's the shortcut?"

  10. 51:52 – 1:02:01

    When Can Success Be Enough?

    1. CW

      Can you transcend that concern about whether or not I'm reaching my potential, uh, can you move it to one side and dispense with it if you haven't done something that gives you a sufficient amount of validation externally from the world?

    2. NK

      What I've noticed is that there's never enough. You know, I was in therapy with a, a new therapist, and he's like, "When is it enough? And if you had all that fame, what's gonna change? Nothing. So we have to change something else." And so what I've recognized for everyone out there is, what's something that matters to you? Maybe it's a podcast, maybe it's a relationship, maybe it's writing a book, maybe it's being a good father. And if some... Part one is something you want, for whatever, everyone's got their own desires, and part two is putting the work on it. And what is... Uh, when people say, "Put the work," I, I'm always like, "What's the work? Can you tell me what the..." The work is like doing it, (laughs) and doing it, and doing it, and doing it. And all the things we're most proud of ourselves in are always the hardest. Like, what stuff are you proud of? I'm jo- I would bet a lot of money you're proud of the show.

    3. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    4. NK

      And why? Because you, you did it when no one was watching, you stuck your ass with it, and you kept going and going, and yeah, now there's some results for it. But I, I think even if it wasn't as big, I think you'd still feel proud, 'cause you did things that were something that was challenging.

    5. CW

      Yeah.

    6. NK

      And I think that's true for most of the things that all of us recognize that we never said that's our potential or not, we're just, we're proud, and so how do we build up more of an internal validation? And mostly, again, it's things you want and things that you've worked hard on.

    7. CW

      But this, again, this comes back to that question, can you take pride in internal validation without external validation? Uh, so it's the Naval quote where he says, uh, "It is easier to achieve our material desires than to renounce them." And, uh, you know, to say, um, "I don't care about driving a beat-up Toyota Corolla, because my last car was a Ferrari," it's way easier to do that. It's way easier to say, you know, "I'm really happy to settle down with my girlfriend and, and do this thing," after you've been pumping at the Playboy Mansion. You know?

    8. NK

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      I have a fri- I- I have a friend, uh, who was a pickup artist for a long time, and I remember asking him a question about, "Dude, you're really into this pickup artistry thing," it was just a revolving door of chicks, right? And, "You're, like, this is, you're really, really passionate about this thing." And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, I am. My future wife better be thankful for all of this." I was like, "Please explain to me how you have somehow laid at the feet of your future wife all of the efforts for you to spray it across the north of England at the moment." And he's like, "Well, you know, when I'm with my future wife, and we're walking down the street with our two and a half kids and a golden retriever, I don't ever want to look at two Brazilian chicks and think, 'I wanna know what it's like to fuck two Brazilian chicks.' I want to have ticked off all of the different things that I've gotta do all the way down." And although that, I think, was quite largely just cope, reverse engineered cope, there's something true in it, which is...We need to prove... A lot of the time we need the world to tell us that we are enough before we can say it to ourselves. And (clears throat) maybe some of the billionaires that you spoke to are really far down that spectrum, where there is basically no amount of world saying, "Yes, well done," that they can get to before... Or maybe it would be a trillion or 100 trillion or whatever, you're pointing at yourself-

    10. NK

      It's for themself. They never get to a point where they can say it for themself.

    11. CW

      Hmm. Hmm.

    12. NK

      It's like, I'm- I'm with my partner now, and she's amazing. I don't question having more, 'cause I have enough. And I do think, yeah, try thing... You have to try things out. It's like, yes, you can marry your first boyfriend. Yes, you can do those things, and it can work too. But try things out in life. Experiment. Find the job that I... I tried a day job. That sucked. Tried to work for other people, got fired. It's like, I gotta find another way. And so I, I, at this point, I don't... Yeah, it's weird. I don't think about finding another person or that, "Oh, man, I'd love to have sex with more people." I'm like, "I'm really getting deeper with this one person." There's a... I don't know if it's Esther Perel or Brené Brown. It's like, "If you want variety in relationships..." You hear this quote? "If you want a variety in relationship, date one person." That's good.

    13. CW

      (laughs)

    14. NK

      It's- it's good. I know, when I was single, I was like, "Oh, that's good." And there's truth in that, right? We think we need more of these experiences, and I think it's good to get 'em. But sometimes you find something, and you have to kn-... Like, if you hire someone but you've never interviewed other people, it's hard to know how good they are. And I think with a lot of these experiences we talk about, let's take ayahuasca or doing anything. Like, I did ayahuasca a few times years ago, influenced by Aubrey, talking with him about it. And I think the whole point of ayahuasca that I learned afterwards, it's not even about the ayahuasca and the crying and the puking and stuff like that. It was like, wow, that was kinda hard, and I can do it. That was the takeaway. Not whether... Yes, I recognized things about my stepfather and things about my- my biological father and other areas. But ultimately, it was like, wow, I could face something. And we all can, and then we can overcome it. It doesn't matter whether you're already a millionaire or whether you're a zeronaire, right? But it's that you can do these things, and I don't think people... I don't know, I don't know if people recognize that they have more ability than they can do. And that's why when they ask that question, I think they know the answer. When they a-... Like, do you ask yourself do... Are you reaching your potential?

    15. CW

      Yeah, pretty regularly.

    16. NK

      Oh, really?

    17. CW

      I'm still... Yeah, I'm still pretty rough with myself about falling short of some arbitrary rule that I've met, like some bar that I should've got over, some- something that I should've done. Um, it's better than it was.

    18. NK

      Hmm.

    19. CW

      But there's still a lot of that to be deprogrammed. But I'm also in therapy, so, you know, that's-

    20. NK

      (laughs)

    21. CW

      ... that- that's helping. Th- I mean, that's- that's another interesting thing, that- that people just... There is a lot of fear around uncertainty, and we don't know, we don't know what's coming next and we don't know if we can deal with it and we don't know if we're going to be good enough, we don't know if we're worthy of love and acceptance. And we use observable metrics in place of hidden metrics. So an ob- uh, the best observable metric in the world is money. Single- single numerical value which can be translated across the entire world almost instantly. Oh, you've got $5 million. I know what that is in yen, I know what that is in pounds, I know what that-

    22. NK

      (laughs)

    23. CW

      ... is in euros. Best- it's the best game in the world. But people will often trade observable metrics for hidden metrics, and a hidden metric would be something like peace of mind, quality of relationships, amount of sleep. That's a big one. Like, all of these things, bringing the hidden into the observable is something that I'm trying to do an awful lot now. Like, am I trading my sanity for accolade? Am I trading my peace of mind for status? Or am I trading my-

    24. NK

      Yeah, but the-

    25. CW

      ... my-

    26. NK

      ... the- the thing that you're saying, especially from your old clip, which I love, about success, that also helped get you where you are.

    27. CW

      Of course.

    28. NK

      And so how do you continue? Maybe you don't get to do that, and that's okay too. There's... Do you know Joe Hudson?

    29. CW

      No.

    30. NK

      Oh, I love Joe Hudson. He has a c- course called Connection Course, phenomenal. He's got a great show too c- um, Art of Accomplishment. And one of the things that... I've taken his course with my girlfriend, is that... and- and that's okay. That's... Just that phrase. And I say this phrase all the time. "Hey, I don't know this answer." That's okay. Hey, what helped you do what you're doing maybe isn't how you're gonna do it in the future. That's okay. And so I wonder, for you, it doesn't have to also be you're gonna solve it immediately. That was one thing I was thinking about this morning, about a lot of success is patience. And not just patience in time, it's patience with ourself. Like what Aubrey said, like, "Hey, probably gonna work out. Let's be a little patient and not make it so hard along the way." So I- I wonder... I'm curious how you're gonna evolve.

  11. 1:02:01 – 1:10:20

    Noah’s Experience With Coaches

    1. CW

    2. NK

      And, uh-

    3. CW

      You- well, you've spent an awful lot of money on coaching. You mentioned that-

    4. NK

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... earlier on.

    6. NK

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      How much money have you spent on coaching?

    8. NK

      Um, collectively with myself and the- the team, at least a million. At least a million dollars in coaches.

    9. CW

      And what things have you worked on?

    10. NK

      So an hour before this meeting, I was with our CFO coach. So she's the former CFO, and the coaches I hire, they've done- they've- they're looking ahead and they've been ahead. Uh, I like people who've been in the game that I wanna- that I would like to be at. So she was a CFO at Mailchimp. I think everyone's pretty familiar with Mailchimp. You know, they sold for 12 billion. And so she's advising us on... Uh, our VP of finance quit. Again, problems will still happen no matter what. How are you gonna respond to them? I think I- my 20-year-old self was very emotional and reactive. Now the only difference, I'm still can be reactive, but I pause, and then I respond. So she's a- a coach that we hire. I have a therapist, and that's what we've worked on, really about pausing. And I rate myself every single week. Last week was a four. I got a little triggered. So I rate myself on my consistency and my emotional behavior one through five every week and why. And just having that every single Friday has helped.

    11. CW

      Four out of five seems good.

    12. NK

      Four was not bad, but someone in my... I do YouTube office hours just before the book launch, and this- this guy was complaining about AppSumo's rev share. And I'm like, "Da-da-da, you don't even know our rev share." And I was just like... and then I paused after I triggered, and I was like, "Oh, I don't wanna behave like that."

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. NK

      And that's okay. It means I did that, but that means that n- next week, I can improve it. But four is not bad. That's- it's pretty- much better than the past. Um, so that's therapy. And so therapy, I've worked on pausing and responding. I've worked on being alone. I just don't like being alone. I like being active. And so, you know, it's not to say I should go force myself to live in a cabin in the woods, but on a Saturday afternoon, it's noon, how can I just be happy being with Noah? How can I just be, okay, I'm gonna read the Wall Street Journal (mumbles) ? Or just go for a bike ride or just be at home and it's okay not to have to distract myself. And that led me then to feel more happy just being with myself. Uh, I have a CEO coach, Ayman AlAbdullah. He's the former CEO of AppSumo. And so a lot of my strengths historically has been like zero to one. Like, I love starting, that's my million dollar weekend, so like how do you start something in quick time? Ayman's superpower is consistency. Ayman's like, "What's working? Okay, make it work better." Like, even a month ago, I went to Ayman, I said, "Ayman, we've got this TidyCal product." I don't know if you're TidyCal. It's a Calendly alternative. So it's $29 for life instead of $20 a month. I'm like, "Ayman, this thing is doing super great. It's blowing up. David and the team that are running it is doing awesome. We're gonna do something new." And he's like, "All right, so you have the thing that's working really great, and you wanna do a new thing. Do you think you wanna do a new thing or maybe just keep doing the thing that's great and make it work better?" I was like, "There's your money. I'll send you your- I'll send you your in- pay your invoice re- right away." So he's a lot of, um, you know, I think higher to your st- higher to your weaknesses. And so he's a lot of the consistency. I have a business coach then, so he's more strategic. I have a business coach. So that's Dan Putt from Reboot.io. Anyone... you know, a great podcast, great book. And Dan's, ah, it's annoying, he's always asking about my feelings. I'm like, "Dude, stop talking about feelings. I wanna talk about the business." He's like, "I know, but I know how your feelings are impacting the business." It's like, "Shut up." Um, so a lot of it, you know, for instance, I was feeling very disconnected from the leadership team of AppSumo where I'm like, "What the hell are we doing this quarter?" And he's like, "Well, if you don't know, do you think the l- rest of the leadership knows?" And I was like, "No." And so then literally the next day, this was two weeks ago, next day we put together a one-pager which is like, what's the one- what's the exact thing we're doing in Q1? So that we know, the leadership team knows, and the rest of the team knows. And a lot of that is just him exploring how I'm feeling about the business, like how things are going in my personal life. A lot of... Business is a projector of who you are.

Episode duration: 1:46:24

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