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Modern WisdomModern Wisdom

“We Won 3 Grammys and Still Felt Like Failures” - Dan + Shay (Live Performance)

Dan Smyers and Shay Mooney are American country music singers, songwriters, and Grammy Award-winning artists.

Chris WilliamsonhostShay MooneyguestDan Smyersguest
Nov 14, 20261h 34mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 4:17

    How Did Dan + Shay Meet?

    1. CW

      The next Modern Wisdom merch drop is now live and only for six days. You can get these designs never to be printed again. My favorite death metal design, this high country ranch thing with a beautiful horseshoe on front, this snake design, this awesome Wisdom Nation World Tour. It's all available at mwmerch.com, never to be printed again, so get yours before they sell out. mwmerch.com. [clicks tongue]

    2. SM

      [singing] Oh, yeah. [guitar strumming] Ooh. Welcome to Modern Wisdom, baby. This is how we start the show now. Yeah. And Chris is looking sexy in his too-tight shirt with his chest popping out. We got Neutonic, baby. Oh, it's just platonic, baby. Welcome to Modern Wisdom.

    3. CW

      What an introduction.

    4. DS

      Thank you so much. Uh, here on the show today [laughs] we're gonna be talking... That's how we gotta start it right out of the gate.

    5. CW

      What an introduction. Well, you think that you were trying to throw me a curve ball.

    6. DS

      Whoa. [laughs]

    7. CW

      Can you tell me about, uh, Dominoes please?

    8. DS

      Dominoes, dude. Dominoes the Italian pizzeria.

    9. CW

      What is Dominoes?

    10. DS

      Such a deep cut, dude.

    11. SM

      Dude, it's... We have an inside joke with Megan Moroney, who's a fellow country artist, just badass. But we were hanging. We had a big crew down in, uh, 30A in Florida. I was like, "Should we order some Dominoes?" Like, we'd all been at the bar all night. She's like, "What the hell is Dominoes?" Not until it got there. She's like, "Oh, Domino's." So yeah, Dominoes, fine Italian pizzeria.

    12. DS

      For, for three years, dude, Dan told me, like, when I first met him at, uh, you know, that, that house party, for, like, the probably four years honestly before I figured out what you guys were talking about, they would always be like, "Man, we gotta get some Dominoes," uh, you know, "It's, like, the Italian pizzeria." And I was like, I just thought it was an Italian place. Four years later-

    13. SM

      It is though. You know what I'm saying?

    14. DS

      ... talking about it in conversation, and that's when I realized Dominoes, dude.

    15. SM

      That's an amazing reveal right there.

    16. DS

      I, I was, that was pretty fantastic.

    17. SM

      That's great. I love that.

    18. DS

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      Dominoes. [laughs]

    20. SM

      I think they just written Dominoes on here. [laughs]

    21. DS

      [laughs]

    22. CW

      I, I saw that.

    23. SM

      That's how it would be written, yeah.

    24. DS

      Y'all tape that on there. I, I thought it was legit on there. I was like, "Is it actually called Dominoes?"

    25. CW

      It might be.

    26. DS

      And we've just been, like, Americanizing it the whole time.

    27. CW

      It would have been brilliant if you'd reverse engineered them into giving them your name.

    28. DS

      100%.

    29. CW

      Like, "Ah, well, like, originally we were called Domino's, but then we heard this Dan guy, and he... Actually we think that the branding's improved."

    30. DS

      It has though.

  2. 4:17 – 15:43

    Does Success Kill Drive?

    1. DS

      are true, dude.

    2. CW

      Is it harder, have you found it harder to stay as driven when you're not slumming it as much anymore? Like, I have to imagine a creative partnership changes when you go from sharing a Domino's box to not even sharing a tour bus.

    3. SM

      It is crazy, dude. I, I really do think that there's a lot... I mean, we talk about this a lot as songwriters. I think when you're first starting out, you have all this kind of stuff to pull from, right? Where it's, like, your life experiences growing up and all these things, and as you kind of go down the road, there are less and less things to pull from. Like, you're not, like, now we're both married, and, like, there's, there's less things to sing about. It gets harder-

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm

    5. SM

      ... as you're not, you know, sleeping on your buddies' couches. Um, we, I, I think that that is harder, like, as you go along in life and, I don't know, it's, it's kind of a crazy thing. I, I remember hearing Luke Bryan talk about that once of, like, what am I supposed to sing about now? [laughs] 'Cause I've, you know, I've made it.

    6. DS

      I, I do feel like the music business, though, is so volatile, so I think that keeps us driven and hungry. It's like at any given moment, I mean, we could get freaking canceled. You know what I'm saying?

    7. SM

      Mm-hmm.

    8. DS

      Or, like, anything could happen. It's just, like, you could be on top of the mountain one day, and then COVID happens.

    9. SM

      Yeah.

    10. DS

      I mean, we felt that. Like, we were, we were rising, we were climbing, like, we were the guys. We were having tequila speeches, 10,000 hours with Bieber, and, like, sold-out arena tour, multiple nights in arenas, whatever, and it was like, then boom, the rug was pulled from under us, and it was like, "Well, shit, we gotta start over again." So I think, like, having that happen to us I feel like was a, was, like, a nice test to, like... I don't know. I think you gotta-

    11. SM

      Mm-hmm

    12. DS

      ... just stay on it. I mean, now more so than ever. It's, like, so competitive. There's so much talent out there. You just, I don't know. I feel like, and also being in a duo, we kind of keep each other. It's like, "Dude, we gotta go do this today," you know? So-

    13. CW

      It's like having a lifting partner-

    14. DS

      100%

    15. CW

      ... to go to the gym.

    16. SM

      Yeah. You have to love it, dude. Like, we love this. Like, at this point, I think we, especially, like, writing music, like, you kind of have to answer that question, like, why? Like, why do we do this?

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. SM

      It's 'cause we love it

    19. CW

      Like, I love every aspect of it. I love that we're in Austin, Texas right now getting to, like, we're working. Like, I love it.

    20. DS

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      Fell in love with it in the beginning and, like-

    22. DS

      And I think that attitude-

    23. CW

      ... we're still doing it

    24. DS

      ... like, those words you said, "get to," I feel like we get to do this, all of us. Like, look at this, this is, your place is badass, dude. This is amazing that we get to do this. You have amazing guests, aside from us.

    25. CW

      Right. [laughs]

    26. DS

      But come on here, like, some of the most brilliant, like, creative, special people in the world come on here, and you just get to have a conversation, and it's our job. We make a living doing it, and we get to do that. I think we got to a place in our life, not to dive too far into this too quickly, but, like, I think when you're going so hard for so long, for a decade, you kind of start framing it, "Oh, we have to go do this. I have to get on this plane."

    27. CW

      Feels burdensome.

    28. DS

      Feels like a burden, yeah. And it's like, if you rewire that and tell your middle school self, like, "Dude, you, somebody's gonna pay you or somebody, there are fans in some other city or some other country that wants you to come sing," like, that's a dream. I'd go there for one person, you know what I'm saying? And I think reframing from, "We have to go do this," to, "I get to go do this," and even if it's just, like, a, a motto that we keep hammering, it's like we try to say that out loud as much as possible 'cause I think if you say that and you lead with gratitude, I feel like you'll start to believe it. And if that's, I don't know, I just think that's the sustainability factor for us. 'Cause whenever you treat it like a burden, I don't know, it can weigh on you pretty bad.

    29. CW

      It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy-

    30. DS

      It's tough out there, man. 100%

  3. 15:43 – 26:27

    Is Staying Successful Harder Than Getting There?

    1. SM

      lime.

    2. CW

      What have you found harder? Have you found it harder to write your first hit or to follow it up with something after?

    3. SM

      I, I would say, and I think I could speak for both of us, I feel like following it up is, is a... At least in our heads, like, I think you, once the bar is set, once you have, like, a Tequila or a Speechless Moment, everything that you write from then on has to be at least that good. At least in our heads it was like, "All right. There's the bar." And it becomes very difficult when you, if you start chasing after that. And I think we've kind of been through this whole journey of like, okay, w- y- you can't control those, the results of something ever.

    4. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SM

      But you can control the process, and I think we've gotten a better grip on that. I don't think you ever, like, fully... Like, we're so competitive. It's the reason we've been successful. All of us are very competitive beings. Um, but I think we've tried to do a better job about controlling the, you know, just the process of those things, finding joy in the process of it because we can't, we don't know what the result is gonna be. Even if we write the next Tequila, it might not be the next Tequila.

    6. CW

      Correct.

    7. SM

      You know? So it's a tough thing. But I think writing a follow-up is, i- it's tough, at least when you try to go in and do that.

    8. CW

      Well, this is a challenge that I think everybody has to try and navigate, especially people that have got goals for themselves and set their sights high. That, okay, I want to do as well as possible, but if I'm good at things, that makes success no longer a cause for celebration, but the minimum bar of acceptable performance-

    9. SM

      100%

    10. CW

      ... the next time that I do that thing.

    11. SM

      Yeah.

    12. CW

      And then you've also got, well, we're competitive, which drives me to keep on pushing, but I also know that if I'm too competitive, I always live in the lack as opposed to in the gain. I'm always thinking about how far I've still got to go. Oh, well, you know, that most recent track from country artist number 23, he actually ended up making, he did more plays on his first day than we, et cetera. And you go, "Well, okay, so I need to be driven enough to keep pushing myself so that I get the outcomes that I want, but not so driven that I'm in- ungrateful about the things that I have done."

    13. SM

      It's tough, man.

    14. CW

      "And also, I need to be happy about the things that I've achieved in the past, but not create a new bar for me to go," it's-

    15. SM

      The bar's always gonna be moving.

    16. CW

      Correct.

    17. SM

      How do you, where do you stand on that? I mean, do you s- do you like look at the charts? Do you-

    18. CW

      Similar sort of trajectory as you guys, I guess. I mean, this podcast last year was number eight in the world-

    19. SM

      Amazing. Congrats, man

    20. CW

      ... on Spotify. Thank you.

    21. SM

      You've crushed it.

    22. CW

      And, um-

    23. SM

      So good. Deserved

    24. CW

      ... yeah, from a bedroom and m- me and a guy with a mullet in the northeast of the UK to being the eighth in the world-

    25. SM

      Insane

    26. CW

      ... in maybe one of the most ascendant, like, media platform, uh, like, domains that there is, was really, really cool. But it lasts for about half an hour-

    27. SM

      Sure

    28. CW

      ... and then you go, "Fuck, if I'm not number seven next year, I might as well kill myself."

    29. SM

      Yeah. [laughs]

    30. CW

      Like-

  4. 26:27 – 28:32

    The Moments That Defined Dan + Shay

    1. SM

      things to look back on.

    2. DS

      What are the times that ti- what are the periods that you look back on as, like, wow, we were really eating shit, but it was also beautiful?

    3. SM

      I would say maybe, like, our, uh, our tour in the UK the first time. [laughs]

    4. DS

      Oh, yeah, yeah.

    5. SM

      Was one of the darkest-

    6. DS

      We didn't see the sun

    7. SM

      ... periods of my life. I, I literally didn't see the sun for like two weeks because I couldn't get used to, like, the time change. I was going to bed at, like, 8:00 in the morning, just, like, stay... There was those double-decker buses. You know, we're all up there, and I remember, like, watching. There was a, like, a hard drive up there, and I was the only... I'd be, like, up till, you know, 8:00 in the morning, and I was watching, uh, Peaky Blinders was, like, rec- it was the only show that was on there. I watched it for probably a good, like, maybe 38 hours I would say-

    8. DS

      Yeah

    9. SM

      ... during that, that two-week trip. But I think that was a, a crazy moment that will always be, will live kind of, kind of in infamy in, in my brain. Like, at the time I was, it was miserable. It was the middle of winter. I literally didn't see the sun the entire time we were there, and now I think for the last probably 10 years we've looked back on that and been like-

    10. DS

      We literally talked about it last night

    11. SM

      ... that was the greatest [laughs] time that we ever had.

    12. DS

      In Manchester we talked about it.

    13. SM

      It was so much fun, yeah.

    14. DS

      Where are you from?

    15. SM

      Who's, uh, Newcastle.

    16. DS

      Okay.

    17. SM

      It's the northeast.

    18. DS

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  5. 28:32 – 37:07

    The Pressure of Performing the National Anthem

    1. DS

      How was performing the national anthem?

    2. SM

      Nuts, dude.

    3. DS

      Insane, dude.

    4. SM

      It was tru- I think that was, uh, it, it, that was one of those moments, I think, that... I think the craziest thing now that we've been doing it for so long, like, you never know the moments that are going to be, like, this big thing.

    5. DS

      Mm.

    6. SM

      And you, you, like, sometimes you can kind of feel it, but, like, right now, like, if this podcast were to absolutely explode, like, right now we're not, we don't f- feel that in the moment.

    7. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SM

      It's very similar of, like, your, you walk out there and, you know, we had done a rehearsal, you know, we walked out there, and nothing went as planned. [laughs] Like, 'cause there's so many people that they're, like, kind of carting around saying what to do, and I had, like, a, a wristband on my thing. Like, you can't go out without this, like-

    9. DS

      Yeah

    10. SM

      ... this wristband, but make sure you take it off before. [laughs] And I remember, like, walking up there the day of, and I walked up and I looked down and my wristband's there, and I was like-

    11. DS

      Like a yellow, like, paper wristband-

    12. SM

      Yeah, it would look terrible

    13. DS

      ... you would get when you go into a bar

    14. SM

      ... and I had to like, I'm sitting there, like, ripping it off, still trying to, like, look cool, you know? But it was, uh... I remember sitting there in that moment, standing there in that moment, and just being like, "This is..." Even with all the stuff that we've done, I felt the weight of that one. Like, maybe more so than anything we've ever done. Like, I could feel it in the moment.

    15. DS

      Big time.

    16. SM

      I'm like, "This is, this is like a-

    17. DS

      You mean a-

    18. SM

      ... a crazy feeling

    19. DS

      ... US World Cup-

    20. SM

      Yes. Even, o- over at the Grammys-

    21. DS

      ... America opening game

    22. SM

      ... we had done the Grammys. That was the last time I can remember my heart beating like that.

    23. DS

      Through the microphone you could hear it.

    24. SM

      Through the microphone you could hear it, and it, that was a very, I was like, "Oh, I'm having a panic attack."

    25. DS

      [laughs]

    26. SM

      "Nobody panic, but I'm gonna die."

    27. DS

      Yeah.

    28. SM

      Uh, but this was different. This was, like, uh, adrenaline and all those things of, like, I'm prepared for this moment. But it was, like, the first time that I could truly feel, like, the weight of what this was. And I, and I remember after, like, all of that, the biggest thing that resonated with me was, like, seeing the videos of other people in bars, in their houses, everybody singing along. Like, we truly, like, led the anthem for our entire country, and that was a crazy thing to, like, witness. Like, it was just, it was not about us. We led the singalong.

    29. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SM

      Everybody's singing along at stadiums, you know, Kansas City, all these places. Like, it was just one of the coolest things that we've ever been a part of truly.

  6. 37:07 – 40:17

    How Dan + Shay Reinvented Their Writing Process

    1. SM

      Uh- That's so funny. [laughs] Going back to writing, how many tracks ended up on the cutting room floor from this most recent album? Because obviously you've been writing for a long time. Yeah. But then, okay, we've gotta get this new thing out. It's gonna be more personal. It's a little bit different. Man. How much did you have to cycle through in order to get this one out? It was a journey, man. This was, uh... We talked about all this last night. It was such a crazy... Probably, it was very different than any other album writing process, I would say, that we've ever had. Uh, we had had probably an entire album worth of songs finished. Um, and we had had, there's been a lot of changes. Like, you know, we, we changed management and we did all these things and it was just a lot of like... It was a lot. Like, we had never really had that kind of change in our career before, and there was just a lot going on, and we were writing all these songs and, and the songs were sick. Like, we really did... We liked the songs, and I think that at some point, like, they should come out. I, we don't... Sometimes we kind of trash talk, but they're, [laughs] they're sick songs. But it felt like there was just something missing in the DNA of, like, what we needed to do right now, at this very, like at, in this season- Mm-hmm ... if you will. And, you know, Dan and I kind of had this conversation of just like, we had kind of a existential crisis about, like, AI and all this stuff of just like, it's a crazy world that we're in. Like, it's, it's weird that AI exists. Like, we went through the whole thing as like, you know, d- does anything we do matter anymore? Like, you know, there, there was... I think everybody kind of struggles with that a little bit. But we kind of felt that in order to kind of combat that, at least even just for, like, ourselves, like, we had to write some stuff that really related to us at this very present moment in our lives. And we got in and we wrote the first song that ended up being the first song on this album, and it was just like, that's, this is what it is. And it was very intentional, and we kind of went back in, and I, I'm sure everybody on our team was like, "Are you kidding me?" Like [laughs] "We had an entire album." It's been written and been done. "It's done." And they were ready to go too. They were ready to go. It was working hard. Like, our, our frequency throughout our career has been like two years album, which is, like, old school. Like, it's a little bit archaic. Now it's like a song every week, and it, that's still not enough. You put out a song, the fans are like, "Cool. Do you have any more?" It's like, come on, guys. Yeah. Like, this took us forever to make. Yeah, this isn't fucking TikTok. Yeah, exactly. That's what I thought. And it was, it was- We were like three years past since the album. Yes, it had been three years, but I, I, I feel like as soon as we had that first song, that kind of, kind of sparked the, the flame of, of creativity. It just- Mm. We wrote for the next, probably it was like a two-month period, I would say, and we just kept writing and writing and writing. And I mean, most... There, there was a few that didn't, like, make it on there, but it was like, we wrote all of the album in that short period of time, and it was just... I don't know. We knew that for this season we needed something that moved us, and I think that we had to answer that question, like, why? Like, why does this song... And Dan uses this term a lot, inevitable, of like, why does this song have to come out into the world? And I don't think that we could necessarily answer that question with the last batch for this particular season. Um, but it just kind of sent us on this journey, and we wrote some really, like, deep songs that were very, like, very modern wisdom-esque of like- Mm-hmm ... all right, this is very, you know, [laughs] philosophical. We're gonna talk about time and, like, what time gives and what it takes away and, like, we had those conversations. Like, there were songs, you know, like Say So, that was a very personal song. Like, we never would've... I, I don't think that until this time we ever would've put out a song like that, because I don't know that we would've even went there in the writer's

  7. 40:17 – 47:10

    The Story Behind _Say So_

    1. SM

      room. But we just- What's the, what's the story behind Say So? Yeah. Yeah. Dig deep. That was crazy, man. So we, we lost a friend, uh, his name was Ben Vaughn, to suicide a little over a year ago, and he was just... I mean, it, it rocked our world and our community in Nashville. He was a pillar of the community. Meant a lot to so many people. Meant a lot to us. I mean, he was the, one of the first people to believe in us as songwriters before we were even a band. Yeah. Signed us to a publishing deal, introduced us to our record label that we're still with today. Um, and beyond that, just meant a lot as a friend. Like, was a huge supporter, believer in us, champion. Um, and it just, like, it wrecked us, and when we were in this space of vulnerability and honesty in the room, we were just... I don't, I don't know how it came up, but we were talking about him. We were in the room with our friends Jimmy and David, and we'd written with them for years, and we were just sharing stories about Ben. Like, he was on our hearts or on our minds for some reason that day. Um, and we're just talking about him and, you know, you get to the writing session and everybody's shooting the shit. You have a coffee or whatever, grab some snacks, catching up. And we were just talking about Ben, and that was one of those songs, like, I'm not just saying this. I know, like, it sounds crazy how it happens like this. A lot of times you come in, it's like, "I got a title today called Speechless. Like, here's how it goes. Like, okay, there's a couple lines. You build it out. It's like paint by numbers, right?" But this one, we were just talking about Ben, and before you knew it, we had, like, couple lines in a verse and half of a chorus. It was like, dude, I, I wasn't planning on writing this song today, like a mental health kind of an- anthem, I'll be there for you kind of vibe. And it's something that I've struggled with over the last few years, like anxiety and imposter syndrome, and I've been open about going to therapy about it. And we were just talking about that, and in that moment, I think I had a little bit of cold feet. I was like, "Man, this feels, like, kind of too heavy for Dan + Shay." I was- Exposing. Yeah. Yeah, for sure, and also the weight of the subject matter, you know, talking about suicide. Like, we're like the wedding song guys, right? Yeah. Traditionally, we have been until this album, which I'm proud of, man. It's, it's great. It's great business. The, people are always gonna be getting married. Um, but we were just wr- that song sort of fell out, and we're almost done with the song and we were like, "I don't know if this is, it's, like, the last thing that other songwriters wanna hear. I don't know if this is for Dan + Shay. Maybe we could pitch this to another artist." But it did feel like that. It was like, I don't know if this is something we would put out, but, like, it felt like that song needed to be written in the room that day, not just for us, but for Ben, um, and for everybody else who, whose lives he touched. And we made a little demo of it, and we were still, like, we walked away, like we knew we had a great song, but we didn't know it'd be a Dan + Shay song or the first single off the new project. And I came home, played the demo off my phone for my wife, and she was like, "Wow, it's amazing. Like, that's beautiful you guys would write that for Ben on his birthday." And I was like, "What?" I, like, caught me off guard, and I was like, "What are you s-" She was like, "It's his birthday." Like, it would've been his 50th birthday, and that day would've been Ben's 50th birthday. We had no idea. In the room, I get, like, chills thinking about it. Um-

    2. DS

      And I think I pulled up my Facebook or whatever. It's like, "Would you like to wish Ben a happy birthday?" So I was like, "Confirmed." Um, and in that moment I knew, like, that song needed to exist. That song needed to be a Dan + Shay song. It's, it's bigger than Dan + Shay. We were just the vehicle who got to deliver it to the world. And, and I think this kind of ties back to what we were talking about earlier. It's like we wanna have hits, we wanna have number one records, and keep moving the, keep doing the thing, keep ringing the bell. But for us, knowing that that song was a little bit different, knowing that it was heavy, I feel like we got to a place with a lot of conviction on it, where we were just like, even if this song doesn't go crazy, if it dies at 70 on the radio charts, if it just doesn't take off-

    3. SM

      Hmm

    4. DS

      ... if it helps one person, if it saves one life, it was a win. That's as good as a Grammy for us. And I, you try to find the why. I mean, we're always searching for the why. I'm sure you deal with that, too. It's like we've all been blessed and fortunate enough to have tremendous success beyond even what our wildest dreams were as kids, or our bucket list. And here we are, 13 years or so into our career, it's like, well, what's the why? And I think being able to use the platform to do some good in the world-

    5. SM

      Hmm

    6. DS

      ... even if it's s- just this little bit of good. But when we put that song out, I, I, I didn't need to, like, pull up our DMs. It's crazy the res- like, in pa- you know, on other songs it's like, "Dope song, love this. Like, we jam this at the lake," or whatever. This is like, "Dear Dan + Shay," comma, and you open the DM and it's, like, five paragraphs of what this... And it's like, some of them are hard to read.

    7. SM

      That'll wreck you.

    8. DS

      But there have been some that it's like, "This song, like, literally I was thinking these thoughts, and it, like, talked me off a ledge." And I, that's just like, I don't know, man. You look for those reasons and, like, that's, that's one of the reasons for us. Again, I want the song to go number one. It's top [laughs] 20 now. Keep going, baby. But-

    9. SM

      I mean, tho- those moments, though, are just like, it really takes you back to reality of just like, oh, this is, this matters. Uh, we were in, uh, we were in New York just last week, and we had a girl come up to us, like, in person.

    10. DS

      Oh, yeah.

    11. SM

      And, you know, we hadn't, we hadn't, you know, been doing many shows this year. And she came up to us in person and was crying, and told us this story about how that song saved her life, and that was just like... When you have those moments, dude, where it's like, you know, we all go through struggles and we go through seasons, but when you have a human being come up to you and say, "Thank you for saving my life," like, that is a... That'll stop you in your tracks and give you a, a quick wake-up call of like, hey, all the stupid things that you think you're going through, and these struggles, like, it doesn't matter. Like, you're doing the right thing. You are making a difference. And then it, it makes all the people, you know, that, the other people that you see online of like, "Ah, Dan + Shay is not country," [laughs] it's like, who, who c- uh, it, it just, it, it, it silences all of that. Of just like, ah, who cares what anyone else's opinion is other than the people who we're making this music for? And it's not for those people. They can listen to it if they like.

    12. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    13. SM

      But if you, if you, if it's not for you, it's not for you. It's those people that truly are moved by your music, and when you meet them in person, you're like, oh, that's, that's the why.

    14. DS

      Number one for us.

    15. SM

      That matters.

    16. DS

      That's important if you're having that kind of an impact, I guess.

    17. SM

      Hmm. Yeah, that's true.

    18. DS

      Bro, and I feel like, too, we get so caught up, and I don't know what your relationship is with social media and the internet. We should talk about that, 'cause it's, I don't know, we're always battling with it. But feel like if you only exist in the digital space, I feel like you can get caught up in... You can lose touch of reality. That s- sounds obvious to say, but it's like you see those comments, it's like, "Dan + Shay sucks. They're not country."

    19. SM

      [laughs]

    20. DS

      It's like, maybe we do suck. Maybe, you know, like [laughs]

    21. SM

      [laughs] We did kinda suck that one time.

    22. DS

      You start to believe it.

    23. SM

      Yeah.

    24. DS

      But when you get out in the real world, man, and, like, you hear those stories from somebody face-to-face, it's just like, it just, I don't know, man. It's unbelievable. And I think, I think COVID kind of threw us all for a loop 'cause we were so disconnected from humans. I just, I, I love community. I, I think I cherish it more now than ever. I, with the advancement of technology and AI and everything went to, like, Zoom chats, and, uh, being here in person, like, we could've done a call or whatever, chatted. But, like, being sitting across the table face-to-face, kicking it when we got here, like, I f- that, that feels real to me.

    25. SM

      Mm-hmm.

    26. DS

      And I think no matter what happens with the advancement of technology, we're always, humans are always gonna value... That's why bars are still successful. You know what I'm saying? I know alcohol goes in waves of popularity and people are on health kicks, whatever, but community and gathering is so important to the longevity of us as a society, and I think it's a beautiful thing. I mean, just, like, being face-to-face with somebody. Like I said, we hadn't played a lot of shows this year, but, like, having her come up in person and say that is like, damn. That's just one person, man, and it's like, it just gives you,

  8. 47:10 – 49:57

    Why Humans Should Never Stop Making Art

    1. DS

      gives you purpose.

    2. SM

      And it gives you, like, perspective, too. Like, we talk about AI a lot just because it's in everyone's faces, where it's just, like... And there are tools where it's, it's amazing that it exists. Like, I think it'll help a lot of things as a tool, you know, for medical purposes and, like, you know, there's a, there's a million things that I know that it, it will advance. But I think it's interesting to think about it in the music world, where it's just like, we talked [laughs] again about this last night, about I, I think as long as humans are the ones consuming art, like, if it was AI consuming AI art, that's one thing. I think that that would be, you know, you can be satisfied. [laughs] But as long as humans are consuming this stuff, like, there will always be a very important need for, like, real humans making real human music.

    3. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SM

      And I think that will always exist, and you kind of see it now, honestly. There's this kind of anti-movement of just like-

    5. DS

      Well, especially in the younger generation

    6. SM

      ... this isn't real. Yeah, 'cause it's not real, dude.

    7. DS

      Yeah.

    8. SM

      Like, it's just, when it comes to music and art and all of these things, again, I'm, I'm not, like, an AI hater. Like, it's, I think it's going to advance, you know, our society in a lot of ways. But I think when we, when we start to talk about art and a, a lot of these things like craftsmanship, like woodworking, like all of these things, like, need to be treasured for the precious things that they are.

    9. DS

      I can only imagine that your style of music is one of the most probably studied and replicated-

    10. SM

      Hmm

    11. DS

      ... by AI. Like, that-

    12. SM

      Oh, I can hear Shay's voice in all those AI-generated models. [laughs]

    13. DS

      It's crazy, yeah.

    14. SM

      Okay.

    15. DS

      All the runs and stuff.

    16. SM

      I am AI. Uh, Shay AI, actually.

    17. DS

      Yeah, yeah. I, I'm, you know, I've spoken to, like, the-

    18. SM

      Shay AI

    19. DS

      ... Shay I... Yeah. You got a Shay AI? [laughs]

    20. SM

      Shay AI. [laughs]

    21. DS

      I, I made a good Shay AI, actually, yeah. [laughs] It's pretty scary. Uh, but it'll never be Shay. Yeah.

    22. SM

      That's right. It's nice.

    23. DS

      I guess when, uh... Somewhere along the way low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out there's a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. They've developed

    24. CW

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  9. 49:57 – 54:03

    Experience vs Imagination: What Makes Better Music?

    1. CW

      When you're doing Say So, if you're writing from real grief as opposed to imagination, is that a different experience? Because a lot of the time you might be thinking about what it would be like for this thing to happen, or I'm worried about a person that I love being taken away from me, or somebody gets ill, but they get over it or whatever. Like, versus, "Oh, shit-

    2. SM

      Yeah

    3. CW

      ... I'm in the middle of this thing and, and this happened."

    4. SM

      I think that was the exploration of this album. Honestly, I think we've been storytellers for a long time of different things. Like, you know, now when we sing Tequila, like, we're not going through that at this very present time. But I think that was a really important thing for us on this album, was to sing real stories that we're going through right now.

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. SM

      It's, it's tough sometimes. I, we, I mean, I think it's a skill in itself to be able to be a storyteller. There's a lot of amazing artists like Kenny Chesney, and he's an amazing songwriter as well. But, like, a lot of his songs he didn't write. He was a storyteller. Jason Aldean, the same thing. There's a lot of these guys who are able to be that storyteller. But for us in particular, we thought it was really important, like, for this album to really tell a story from the standpoint of, like, things that we're actually going through, and so we didn't have to stand on stage and sing about a made-up story that we've [laughs] you know, that we're not going through.

    7. CW

      Yep.

    8. SM

      I think there's something, especially, like, in this day and age. Like, it's a really cool feeling knowing that I can stand on stage with conviction and be, like, looking someone in the eye, singing a song that, like, matters to me, that is, that actually moves me as a, as a human being.

    9. CW

      Well, the same thing, I- It has to be hard to write honest love songs when you're happily married. I remember thinking, like, Luke Combs was a good example of this arc. I think when you look at the last eight years or whatever of his writing, he goes from, uh, things are a little bit tumultuous and I don't really know what's going on, and, like, I am back out dating and I found this girl and she's really, really nice, and we're falling in love and we're gonna get married. Like, all of that stuff. Oh, there's tension and release and stuff like that. And then still unbelievable singer, one of the best songwriters in the world, fantastic artist. I kind of want him to do some coke and make some mistakes.

    10. SM

      [laughs]

    11. CW

      I'm like, dude-

    12. SM

      We're gonna text him right now.

    13. CW

      Fucking just, like, break a leg, crash a car. That, there's something about the tumult, right-

    14. SM

      Sure. 100%

    15. CW

      ... of typically 20s-

    16. SM

      Yep

    17. CW

      ... music artists.

    18. SM

      Yep.

    19. CW

      That then, okay, now things are going pretty well, but my dad's getting a bit older, but I still love him a lot. And, like, my son misses me when I leave, but he's happy when I come back. And you're like-

    20. SM

      Dude

    21. CW

      ... I-

    22. SM

      Yep

    23. CW

      ... shoot up some heroin. You know? [laughs] Like-

    24. SM

      You wanna feel that- That's gonna be the, the one quote from this. [laughs]

    25. CW

      "Shoot up some heroin."

    26. SM

      You wanna feel that pain. And I think that's what we tried to find on this album. I mean, I think the pain that you feel as a mid to late 30s man is l- probably a little different than a girl breaking your heart when you're shit-faced at a bar-

    27. CW

      Yes

    28. SM

      ... early 20s, you know what I'm saying?

    29. CW

      Yes.

    30. SM

      And I think tapping into that, there aren't heartbreak songs on the album that the tr- in the traditional sense of a Tequila, like this, this girl that you're missing. The heartbreak songs are... A song like Young, for example, the title track, is just our interpretation of aging as a man, which I feel like men don't traditionally talk about aging as much, you know, as women do.

  10. 54:03 – 57:40

    Why Pain Connects More Deeply Than Happiness

    1. CW

      to this album.

    2. SM

      Why do you think people connect more deeply with pain than happiness when it comes to music? [sighs] That's a great question.

    3. CW

      I, I think it's a really good question.

    4. SM

      It certainly feels like heartbreak songs outlive happy songs-

    5. CW

      Yeah. I think it's 'cause there's healing-

    6. SM

      ... in terms of someone's connection to-

    7. CW

      I think it's 'cause there's healing in it. I mean, I think of, like, growing up, like, when you were sad, you, it's very kind of anti of what you'd think. Like, I was not listening to, like, [laughs] you know, Friday, Friday, like, when I was sad. You're listening to, like, He's Stop Loving Her Today, or, like, Whiskey Lullaby, or, you know, These Days by Rascal Flatts. Like, all, you're listening to, I was listening to these very sad songs. And I think that in a, in a similar way to talking about your feelings and, like, getting it out there is very, very important. I think just, like, the spoken word to admitting, like, "Hey, I, something is, is hurting inside of me," I think that we all as humans kind of have that. Like, we want to... And I think music is a way of doing that, of just like, whatever this pain is, I feel it when I listen to this sad song, and it somehow kind of helps you heal in a lot of ways. And it's usually the sad songs that

    8. SM

      Help you heal rather than just happy

    9. CW

      I think that they should feel less alone as well.

    10. SM

      For sure, yeah.

    11. CW

      Because it's, wow, I'm feeling in somebody else's words the same sensation that I've had inside of me. And especially if someone's struggling and if you've been struggling for a long time, you end up being in a relationship with your relationship to the problem.

    12. SM

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      This sort of recursive-

    14. SM

      Yeah

    15. CW

      ... uh, strange prison of I'm thinking about this thing and now I know how I think about the thing, and I've got self-judgment about the fact that I am the sort of person, God, how shameful for me to be the sort of person that would... It's classic me-

    16. SM

      Sure

    17. CW

      ... to ha- to be the kind of person that would think this, that... Oh, fuck. That, that song lyric is exactly what, oh, wow, that means that I'm less broken-

    18. SM

      Yeah

    19. CW

      ... than I thought. That means that I'm less alone. That means that I'm not-

    20. SM

      Community.

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      That means that I'm not, uh, defective. It means that I'm just a sensitive human going through something that somebody that I really admire is very talented, that they went through as well.

    24. SM

      Yeah. And I, I think happiness doesn't necessarily spark empathy. Like, when you're in a crowd of people singing, like, Sweet Caroline, you're not feeling, like, empathy for the person [laughs] next to you. Like, you're all happy. Things are going great. But if you're singing, like, a, a sad song, you see someone who's really going through it and it's like, all right. It, it connects you in a different way than happy songs do, I think.

    25. CW

      You know what's interesting? I think in a less artistic way, because when you're talking on a podcast or even to some degrees writing a book, you need to be more explicit, uh, which means that you can't have people slot themselves into the story in the same way as you could if you're writing music or-

    26. SM

      Hm

    27. CW

      ... even just reading lyrics without the song, without the melody over the top, like-

    28. SM

      That's true

    29. CW

      ... turns them from something that's really beautiful into like, oh, is this like a poem? It feels like weird slam poetry. But, um, certainly in the world of, of podcasting and writing, if you can find a single line that tells somebody, like, you've already achieved the goals that you said would make you happy-

    30. SM

      Yeah. Hm

  11. 57:40 – 1:06:58

    Why Aging is Hard to Navigate

    1. SM

      that's pretty incredible. I was thinking about, like, we could do a little bit of Young. You wanna do Young? Yeah. I gotta get a capo. Should I g- get a capo? Go get a capo. I, I feel like you would- Oh, y'all want that- I feel like you would really like this song. Thank you, dude. I don't think we've ever done this acoustic. We haven't. If we screw it up, let's see.

    2. CW

      No, it's fine.

    3. SM

      Should I, should I look up the lyrics legitimately so I don't mess this up?

    4. CW

      Yeah.

    5. SM

      I know the first verse pretty good, but if we get to, to verse two, we'll see how it goes. Let's see. [guitar playing] Time. Oh, I don't have my phones. [laughs] I can't... Chris, if you wouldn't mind just, uh, s- just bring the lyrics-

    6. CW

      I'll look the lyrics for your fucking song up

    7. SM

      ... 'cause they weren't... They're not even [laughs] they're not even on the internet yet.

    8. CW

      Yeah. Oh, we fucked it.

    9. SM

      So we can't.

    10. CW

      All right. Well, good luck.

    11. SM

      Hello? Mom?

    12. CW

      [laughs] Someone.

    13. SM

      All right. It's just that- I think this is it, right? I think it's, uh, one, five, seven, flat seven, four. Okay, cool. Ready? Four. [laughs] Are you ready? Ready? You count. Four. [singing] Time, it's gonna do what it always does. Steals like a thief and it don't let up. You look down that road, it looks so long. You blink your eyes and it's almost gone. No, you don't know what you have when you have it. And maybe that's the point. Young man thinks that he's gonna live forever. Young man drinks like he just turned 21. Young man loves the least 'cause he don't know no better. Young man thinks he'll always be young. Young wears a cape, thinks he can fly. Jumps 'cause he ain't smart enough not to try. Driving like it's stolen, faster than a bullet. Laughing at tomorrow like he's never gonna die. Oh, you can try but you can't tell that boy nothing. He's gotta learn it for himself, mm. Young man thinks that he's gonna live forever. Young man drinks like he just turned 21. Young man loves the least 'cause he don't know no better. Young man thinks he'll always be young, mm. [guitar playing] No, you don't know what you have when you have it. And maybe that's the point. Young man thinks that he's gonna live forever. Young man drinks like he just turned 21. Young man loves the least 'cause he don't know no better. Young man thinks he'll always be young, mm. Young man thinks he'll always be young.

    14. CW

      Let's fucking go, boys

    15. SM

      Hey. Only messed up once or twice or three times

    16. CW

      First fucking acoustic

    17. SM

      We've never done that yet.

    18. CW

      Oh, really?

    19. SM

      We've never done that, but I, I love that song so much because it just... I remember we had... I, I, I knew we had something special in that song when I sang that, like, for my dad the first time. I just sat, like, I was like, "We wrote this song today," and I played it on acoustic. And for the first time, like, maybe ever while playing a song, like, it made me cry.

    20. CW

      Mm.

    21. SM

      And it was just one of those things where I was like, "Man, this is so heavy," because I think after living life for a while now, you know, you think you've, you know, you've wised up. But I, I just, I kept... Every time I hear that song, I think about young me, like when I first moved to town, you know, and, and, and met this guy and started down this career. And I, I look at my, my nine-year-old, like, figuring out the world now and looking at me thinking that I had it all figured out. [laughs]

    22. CW

      Had it all figured out. Yeah.

    23. SM

      And I'm like, I think that's the great deception and also the great mystery and joy of life is just like we look at our, our parents and think like, "Oh, they, they know what they're doing." But that's kind of the beauty and the, and the chaos of, like, of being a, a parent is like we don't know what we're doing, [laughs] you know? A quick aside, you've probably heard me talk about LMNT before, and that's because I've started every single morning the same way for the last five years now, which is a cold glass of water with LMNT in it. LMNT is an electrolyte drink mixed with everything that you need and nothing that you don't. It's a science-backed electrolyte ratio of sodium, potassium, and magnesium. No sugar, no coloring, no artificial ingredients. It reduces muscle cramps and fatigue, supports brain function, and helps to regulate your appetite throughout the day. I genuinely notice the difference when I take it versus when I don't, which is why I don't shut up about it, and also why it's used by everyone from Dr. Andrew Huberman to Olympic athletes and FBI sniper teams. You know, the, the good sniper teams, not the bad ones. Also, they have a no questions asked refund policy, so if you don't like it for any reason, they'll just give you your money back. Plus, they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of LMNT's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. But no, the, the insight about aging as a man I think is really interesting because you're right. Women have got it worse when it comes to aging. Like, society takes, judges so much around youth and, and, uh, w- the beauty that sort of comes along with that for women. And guys are like, "Okay, we don't have it as hard- Yeah

    24. CW

      ... with regards to aging."

    25. SM

      Totally.

    26. CW

      So therefore nobody ever talks about it, and then it kind of comes along and smashes you in the face.

    27. SM

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      Mm, when it was when I f- maybe 36. 34.

    29. SM

      How old are you now? 38.

    30. CW

      Okay, I'm 38 too.

  12. 1:06:58 – 1:08:52

    Can Authenticity Be Manufactured?

    1. SM

      me the truth?"

    2. CW

      People are really hungry for authenticity 'cause it feels like-

    3. SM

      Big time

    4. CW

      ... you can speed run that-

    5. SM

      Yeah

    6. CW

      ... now. It feels like you can manufacture authenticity. That being said, you know, when you were talking before about writing this song that feels so personal and so exposing, that, oh, that sort of The tide has gone out and I haven't got any pants on level of fuck. I think that's usually a good indication that you're moving in the right direction.

    7. DS

      Sure.

    8. CW

      Because it's so rare. Everybody feels that, and I think that they feel it now more sensitively. The internet's desperate for authenticity, but kind of allergic to sincerity.

    9. DS

      Yeah.

    10. CW

      Like the level of earnestness that you can have, it's okay. You know the Overton window, right? The window of acceptable speech.

    11. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. CW

      Like this is too far right-

    13. DS

      Of course

    14. CW

      ... and this is too far left. There's kind of the same, but for depth of emotions.

    15. DS

      Sure.

    16. CW

      So I wanna, I wanna hear how well or how challenging things are, but only up to a limit on both sides.

    17. DS

      That's right. That's right.

    18. CW

      I can't hear too much elation and I can't hear too much despondency, and I think when you do feel you pushing that emotional Overton window, I think that's usually a good indication.

    19. DS

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      And that's the same for everyone. Like if you're a, a writer or if you give speeches to kids or whatever, like whenever you push that limit a little bit more, that's usually a good indication that you're on the right tracks.

    21. DS

      Hmm. I do, I mean, like what you do is amazing, man. You're a brilliant guy. Amazing conversation obviously, like the success is no accident. But I do love the growth and popularity of long form conversation like this, 'cause I think you- it's gonna be more vulnerable inherently. You know what I'm saying? When you go do a two-minute interview with a radio station-

    22. CW

      "Hey, Dan + Shay here."

    23. DS

      And you go, "We're doing fantastic. We can't wait to come out to Austin."

    24. CW

      "We're so excited. It's good to be here in New York today." It's just like, it's very fluffy and nothing ever gets done.

    25. DS

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      You can't hide behind a wall when you're on a two, three-hour conversation like this.

    27. DS

      Mm-hmm.

    28. CW

      You know what I'm saying? And I think-

    29. DS

      You can try, but it, it's very evident.

    30. CW

      It'll break you down pretty quick.

  13. 1:08:52 – 1:18:40

    How Dan + Shay Found Their Way Back

    1. CW

      Yeah.

    2. DS

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Yeah. Uh, most bands don't break up because they stop making good music, because they stop liking each other.

    4. DS

      Hmm. Hmm. Wow.

    5. CW

      Why?

    6. DS

      We went through it, man.

    7. CW

      Yeah.

    8. DS

      I mean, we really went through it. Uh, it was, uh, was it like 2021? We had a crazy-

    9. CW

      Yeah

    10. DS

      ... situation. Um, you know, I just think like it wasn't one specific thing that got in between us. It was like, "What the fuck? You crossed me." It was just like time, doing what time does. And I think if you don't go out of your way to foster a relationship, what we do is like a marriage, 50/50 split. It's, uh, it's probably even more difficult than a marriage. I mean, there's like money on the line. There's notoriety. We have this brand. We have this business we're trying to uphold. There are people that are, you know, accountable to us. It's a whole thing, and I think we, you know, at first we were living on the same freaking couch, you know? Like in this shitty house, like doing the thing. You're always traveling. You're doing 200 shows a year. You're in it with each other. But if you don't, whenever you start to go separate ways, obviously we got a little older. We matured. We got families. We weren't spending as much time together off the road, and when we would come off the road, we wouldn't talk. We wouldn't text each other. We wouldn't call each other.

    11. CW

      Hmm.

    12. DS

      And as you got bigger, you know, you're not doing 200 shows a year. It's, you're doing 40 or 50 shows, so you're not gone as much. Obviously we're still busy doing promo and writing songs, being in the studio, and I just think like time got in between us, and I just think we weren't going out of our way to, to show each other respect and love. And again, nothing like came to a head, nothing was crazy. But we got to a place where I don't think we resented each other, but I don't think like the connection was, we weren't fostering the, our relationship as much-

    13. CW

      Yeah

    14. DS

      ... as we should have, like we're doing right now. And we got to this place where I don't think either of us were happy, and I think we were probably like venting at home to our wives and people on our team, and there were like mediators involved in the middle of us. And duos historically are, I, I, I would s- and this is not a stat, don't quote me on this, but I feel like duos break up more than any band, just 'cause I think in a trio there's always a tiebreaker. A solo artist, like you're just kinda out there on an island by yourself. In a band it's all chaos, but a duo is 50/50. I mean, we see it a lot in our format in country music.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. DS

      Duos often split. Like outside of our format, Hall & Oates, like those guys, they despise each other. I don't know what their relationship is now, but I know that they had a rough patch.

    17. CW

      You know, Brooks & Dunn. I mean, there's been-

    18. DS

      Brooks & Dunn

    19. CW

      ... you can name all of-

    20. DS

      FTL are good buddies and-

    21. CW

      Pretty much all of them, honestly

    22. DS

      ... it's beautiful seeing those guys come back together, and like the, the humanity in that's been awesome to watch that-

    23. CW

      Hmm

    24. DS

      ... front row seat. But, um, I just think we got to a place where we're like, we've been able to do some unbelievable things, and we've seen how it's gone down with other duos and like, man, I, I'm bummed for those guys. Like for their kids, for their... They're looking back on their career in vain. They're not able to celebrate it. Even if you do go your separate ways, shit happens, man. Like it doesn't last forever. And I just like, it, it broke my heart to see other people like looking back and not be able to celebrate those wins, not be able to be like, "We had 20 number ones," that kind of thing. And it was important I think for us, no matter like where we got to in our career, whether we were gonna break up or stay together or rekindle the relationship, to not look back on it in vain. Like we've done some cool shit, aside from the awards, but like the stories and memories that we have together. Like if we do decide to go our separate ways, and who knows what would happen, like let's like hug it out, ride off into the sunset, maybe get back together someday. So it was just like out of the blue. We hadn't spoken in a little while.

    25. CW

      Yeah.

    26. DS

      I hit you up. I was like, "Yo, dude, like, hey, I wanna talk. Can you come over?" And you were probably like, "Oh, fuck." [laughs]

    27. CW

      Yeah, I was like, "Well, that was a good 10 years."

    28. DS

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. CW

      "This is over now."

    30. DS

      And my wife like I think she went to a friend's house or took the dog somewhere. She knew it was gonna be like a thing, you know? And it was, it was just a conversation that needed to happen. We were gonna go out on the road. Kenny Chesney, playing stadiums for the first time, like sick. NFL stadiums, opening for one of our heroes. Good payday. The whole thing, like the dream tour. Like we've looked up to that tour for, I remember going to it as a kid in Pittsburgh. Shake him over the house and cracked a couple beers or whatever, and we went out on the porch, and it was just like right to it. I just like, I remember it was emotional. We were crying. It was a whole thing, and I just like went on the offensive a little bit and was just like, "Hey, man, I, first of all, I just want to apologize for my, the shit that I put on you. Like I'm a crazy person. I'm like very I'm a pessimist by nature, you're an optimist by nature, and I think we meet somewhere in the middle-

  14. 1:18:40 – 1:22:54

    What Makes a Great Business Partner?

    1. DS

      Let's say that someone's choosing a, a co-founder or a bandmate. What are the most important traits that you would tell them to select for?

    2. SM

      Of a person that they're looking for?

    3. DS

      Yeah. I would honestly say somebody that challenges them. I mean, that sounds like, it sounds different to say coming off of this conversation, but I feel like we challenge each other in a great way.

    4. SM

      Yeah.

    5. DS

      This guy, I mean, I, I will say it all day long till the day I die, is the best singer in the world. Like, you just heard it in this room. The guy held the frigging last note of Tequila for an hour.

    6. SM

      [laughs]

    7. DS

      We, we blacked out. It was, it's the next day when you stop singing that note, bro.

    8. SM

      [laughs]

    9. DS

      But I... Like, we, we don't rest on that. Like, I could sit here, like I... You know, I produce our records, so I'm sitting there in my makeshift studio, a spare bedroom in a house, record him. I think that's like... You, you know, you're doing your thing as a solo artist. You came to town, and I think we'd see it early on before, like, people knew our dynamic in the room. We'd walk in, he'd sing something, and people in the room would be like, "That's..." And it is, like, the best thing they've ever heard. Like, yeah, that, that's, that's the right lyric 'cause he sings it. He could sing anything, literally anything, and it's gonna sound good. But I think I was maybe one of the first people that came into your life that challenged you-

    10. SM

      Yeah

    11. DS

      ... and said, like, "You're a great singer, but you can be better in this moment. I know you just fucking crushed that. That's a perfect take." It's always funny. I'm like, "Perfect, dude. That's exactly it. Okay, five more."

    12. SM

      [laughs]

    13. DS

      "Let's get nine more. Let's get, let's get nine more."

    14. SM

      That's like football.

    15. DS

      "That was perfect."

    16. SM

      Yeah.

    17. DS

      "You can give me five more?"

    18. SM

      Yeah.

    19. DS

      "Five more?" But I just think, like, we challenge each other in a great way, and you challenge me, and I just think that's, that's beautiful. And I don't know. I think that's when a partnership works best. I think somebody who compliments you. Like, we have a lot of similarities, but I think we're also very different. I, I talked about our different attitude and different perspective on life, and I think as we've re-nurtured our relationship and fostered that, I think we've come to a more of a middle ground, where I used to be so pessimistic. Like, it was like we could win a Grammy and be like, "Fuck, somebody else won two tonight." Like, we suck.

    20. SM

      [laughs] Yeah.

    21. DS

      We suck.

    22. SM

      Yeah.

    23. DS

      We'd be like, "We won a Grammy. This is the sickest thing ever." And I just think, like, I feel guilty, like, probably, like, cheating on a lot of good years and a lot of good moments-

    24. SM

      Yeah

    25. DS

      ... just being that guy. And I, I'm still like... I think it's in my DNA, blue collar, like, grew up in a hard-nosed, tough town, Pittsburgh, PA.

    26. SM

      You and me both.

    27. DS

      Yeah, exactly. It's just-

    28. SM

      But I think there's beauty... Like, I get to... I, I know that that's part of my job in this partnership is to kind of, is to be that optimism-

    29. DS

      Positivity fuel

    30. SM

      ... sometimes, like, blind-

  15. 1:22:54 – 1:33:04

    Should You Always Listen to Criticism?

    1. DS

      guys-"

    2. SM

      But even if it isn't-

    3. DS

      How much, how much success do you need to countervail criticism?

    4. SM

      You can't.

    5. DS

      There's no amount. Infinity.

    6. SM

      There's no amount.

    7. DS

      The answer is infinity.

    8. SM

      And it's-

    9. DS

      Yeah

    10. SM

      ... no one ever goes on... The, the problem that we have now with like, with positive comments, no one goes on to the Chili's reviews and be like, "I had a fantastic time at Chili's. One of the best experiences I've ever had in my life." No, you're gonna be like, "Hey, I found a human foot- [laughs]

    11. DS

      Yeah

    12. SM

      ... in my Chili's, uh, cheeseburger today." Like, no one goes on and says positive things. It's only negativity. Like, the algorithm really, like, feeds into that. And so it's like, it's tough when you're on there and you're looking. It's just like, [laughs] dang, dude, like do... Are we completely irrelevant? Do people hate us?

    13. DS

      Yeah.

    14. SM

      And then you go and you play a show and you're like, "Okay, I can see these people." And people don't talk, you know, they're not in the front row being like, " [laughs] The rumors are true." You know? Like-

    15. DS

      Yeah

    16. SM

      ... you're not really seeing that. And so like, but, uh, online is such an insane... For the reason I don't let my kids, like I will never let them have social media until they're-

    17. DS

      Yeah

    18. SM

      ... you know, if they choose to do that later on. I think it's so toxic and so-

    19. DS

      Well-

    20. SM

      It's a necessary evil for us, but it's crazy. It's crazy.

    21. DS

      To give you, uh, to give you even more encouragement for the particular industry you decided to choose, imagine if you guys only ever recorded songs but never played them live, and all that you ever got to see were the responses, and also every single time that you wanted to record a song in the studio, it had to be a new song and not one that you'd done before. Because that's what podcasting is.

    22. SM

      That's what, that's what comedy is too.

    23. DS

      That's what podcasting is.

    24. SM

      Yeah. [laughs]

    25. DS

      Podcasting is, for almost everybody, the only reason that I've done live stuff and got feedback from the audience is I decided that I was gonna start to do a solo live show. Recording something one week later or two weeks later it comes out, and then you never get to see it-

    26. SM

      Yeah

    27. DS

      ... immediately. You don't get to hear what people think. It selects for comments which are already some of the most, like, unique and sometimes deranged and sometimes, like... It's either super fans or super haters-

    28. SM

      Sure.

    29. DS

      .. really. Like, the middle is-

    30. SM

      Polarity is-

  16. 1:33:04 – 1:34:03

    Where to Find Dan + Shay

    1. CW

      Mm.

    2. DS

      Unreal.

    3. CW

      Dan + Shay, ladies and gentlemen.

    4. DS

      Dude.

    5. CW

      Dude.

    6. DS

      You guys rule.

    7. CW

      You're amazing, man.

    8. DS

      Thank you, buddy.

    9. CW

      Thank you.

    10. DS

      You're the best.

    11. CW

      Where should people go? What's coming up?

    12. DS

      Well, we've got a big year this year. We, uh, start, uh, tour is September 11th, and we got an album coming out August 21st. Is that right?

    13. CW

      That's right, dude.

    14. DS

      Nailed it, dude.

    15. CW

      Fact checker.

    16. DS

      I'm not good with, uh, with dates. But we're excited, man. The Young album, The Young tour coming in September, and, uh, it's gonna be a lot of fun, man. We gotta get you out.

    17. CW

      I appreciate you, man. Are you coming through Austin?

    18. DS

      No.

    19. CW

      Goddammit.

    20. DS

      Yep. But we might now.

    21. CW

      All right. That's it.

    22. DS

      Let's go, brother.

    23. CW

      No requests in.

    24. DS

      So good to see you, man.

    25. CW

      All right. Appreciate you guys.

    26. DS

      Thank you. Thank you, dude.

    27. CW

      Goodbye, my beauties. See you next time.

    28. DS

      Awesome.

    29. CW

      Yes. What a vibe, dude.

    30. DS

      What a vibe.

Episode duration: 1:34:03

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