What Is Happening With Modern Dating? - Vincent Harinam

1. 0:00 – 0:24

   Intro

   1. VHVincent Harinam0:00

      There was a study conducted by four universities here in the UK, and it was found that for every 16 point increase for a man in IQ, his prospect of marriage increases by 35%. But for every 16 point increase in a woman's IQ, her prospect of marriage decreases by 40%.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:17

      (wind blowing) Vincent Harnam, welcome to the show.

   3. VHVincent Harinam0:21

      Chris, thanks for having me, buddy. Really appreciate it.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:23

      My pleasure,

2. 0:24 – 4:45

   Vincent’s Incredible Writing

   1. CWChris Williamson0:24

      man. So your writing is some of the favorite stuff that I've read on the internet over the last couple of years. You don't write regularly, but the stuff that you put out is bomb. However, what you do during the day, you're like a, like a, a hyper-nerd by day and then you write about social dynamics and trends in dating and culture and stuff. Talk to me about how those two things blend together.

   2. VHVincent Harinam0:49

      Okay. Well, one correction there. I'm not a hyper-nerd, I'm a hyper-geek. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson0:53

      Okay. (laughs) Sorry.

   4. VHVincent Harinam0:53

      There's, there's a slight difference between... No, no, don't apologize. Don't apolo- It's like this, this typology that I've created to separate geeks, dorks, and nerds.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00

      What's the difference?

   6. VHVincent Harinam1:00

      We can talk... Okay, so I've, I've, um, I've came, I've come to the conclusion that in order to be one of these things, you have to have or don't have to have either intellectualism or functional utility. So a geek is a person that has, is, that is intellectual but also has a, a level of functional utility. So a coder, for example, does something which, which actually helps people. But there's some intellectual rigor required there. A nerd has intellectualism but lacks functional utility. So reading a book on 14th century poetry doesn't really help a lot of people, right? There's no societal benefit to that sort of thing. And a dork has neither, neither functional utility nor intellectualism.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:41

      All right, so that's the matrices that you've put together that, uh, explains the-

   8. VHVincent Harinam1:45

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:45

      ... what would you say, the computerly-inclined, uh-

   10. VHVincent Harinam1:48

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:48

       ... modern man.

   12. VHVincent Harinam1:49

       And the poetically-inclined.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:50

       Yeah. Okay. Okay, cool.

   14. VHVincent Harinam1:51

       Yes.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:51

       Right. So talk to me, what's this marriage between these two worlds?

   16. VHVincent Harinam1:56

       Well, for me, I... All the articles that I write, I do in my free time. It's not something that I think about necessarily on a daily basis or I even do for my day job. So what I do is that I, I, maybe I have an interest, an idea, or, or something that I wanna pursue further, and then I accumulate as much data as I can and I apply the sort of research skills that I have as a data scientist, uh, a data analyst, and I try to take a complex idea and then simplify it as much as I can. So papers on white privilege, um, sexual dynamics, simping, these are all things that I think people find interesting, but there isn't really any empirical rigor behind any of it. And so my job, I think, as, as an intellectual per se, or, or a person that, that does data analysis, is to try to break it down such that people understand it in a cogent way.

   17. CWChris Williamson2:43

       This gets around the sort of armchair philosophizing excuse-

   18. VHVincent Harinam2:48

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson2:48

       ... that a lot of people have with this, right? They just sit and throw cod psychology bro-science out there. I mean, th- like, this is me down to a T. And yet, you have somebody that can come in with some hard data and actually back that up or refute it.

   20. VHVincent Harinam3:03

       Yes, correct. The problem with the culture wars as I see it is that nothing is actually empirical. So they'll state that, uh, "Get Woke, Go Broke" is a principle by which these companies operate under. But in actuality, when I, when I crunched the numbers, it wasn't the case, right? These companies weren't actually losing moneys, money if they, if they engaged in any sort of woke capitalism or if they pandered to the hard left. And I wonder how much of all these concepts that people espouse in the culture wars are true and how many of them need to be back tested or just tested in general.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:33

       Yeah, so you're able to stress test these with actual data, because they sound go woke-

   22. VHVincent Harinam3:38

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson3:39

       ... uh, get, Get Woke, Go Broke or whatever sounds-

   24. VHVincent Harinam3:41

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson3:41

       ... I mean, it rhymes. Like, that's powerful.

   26. VHVincent Harinam3:43

       That's... It's, it's a meme, that's why it's so popular. It's a g- it's a damn meme, and if, if anything is memefied, it becomes popular. So something like Dogecoin, which has no basic fundamentals, is incredibly popular because it is a meme. It's a dog. It's- it's- it's Doge.

   27. CWChris Williamson3:59

       Well, yeah, uh, okay. So "Get Woke, Go Broke" is like Dogecoin but for culture wars?

   28. VHVincent Harinam4:05

       Sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:06

       Yeah.

   30. VHVincent Harinam4:06

       Sure.
3. 4:45 – 10:26

   Why Simping Doesn’t Work

   1. CWChris Williamson4:45

      So what did you learn about simping then?

   2. VHVincent Harinam4:47

      Well, that it doesn't work. That it's, it's if, if one wants to engage with women and get into a meaningful relationship, simping is not the way forward 'cause you're basically... you're, you're placating, right? You're, you're a pliable male that's trying to appeal to females and you're not actually engaging with them on an emotional level, you're just giving them presents and undue compliments, and these women are essentially using you for your resources fundamentally. I don't really blame them, right? If, if, if you throw a fastball down the middle of the plate, you're gonna hit it, are you not? So the same thing applies here, I guess. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson5:20

      Okay. What... For the people that don't know the term, how would you describe what a simp is?

   4. VHVincent Harinam5:25

      Well, a simp... So the, the etymology of the term actually goes back, I think, to the 1920s where simp was a shortened or condensed version of the term simpleton. Uh, but it was actually... it was, it was taken by rappers in the 1980s, 1990s and used in a couple of rap songs. Uh, I forget which r-... Was it... I think maybe Tupac or Biggie had a song where they used the term simp. But in, in modern parlance, simp is a term that is used to describe a man that is, you know, romantically hapless, right? He sort of gives presents and praise to women with the expectation of receiving some sort of sexual or emotional gratification-... but receives none of it because he's, he's pliable. Right? He doesn't actually bring anything to the table emotionally or, or, um, um, really in terms of being a worthwhile partner to have.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:13

      Yeah. And OnlyFans has basically monetized-

   6. VHVincent Harinam6:16

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson6:16

      ... and weaponized this, right?

   8. VHVincent Harinam6:18

      Yes. OnlyFans is the industrialization of simping.

   9. CWChris Williamson6:21

      (laughs)

   10. VHVincent Harinam6:21

       That's, that's basically how I would define it. And it's ... Look, it's a fantastic business model. Look, if we were to look at it purely from a, from the lens of, of a business perspective, it is excellent at what it does because it capitalizes on something which is endemic today in, in the sexual marketplace, and that's, that's emotional, that's just emotional connection that young men desire.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:40

       Yes. And they ... The asymmetry, the fact that most men fear rejection, that they struggle with finding a mate, means that if they can pay to remove rejection, even if they know that the chance of genuine reciprocation is basically zero, most men are happy to pay that price.

   12. VHVincent Harinam7:00

       Absolutely. Absolutely. They're more than happy to pay. And I think that probably speaks more about the nature and quality of men today than it does about anything else, that you would forego any sort of hardship for an easy win, or an easy win in their mind. It's like video games, right? I'm not knocking anyone that necessarily plays video games, but the notion that the trophy that you'd win in a video game is tad about or similar to a, you know, winning a physical trophy in a sports competition are the same is, is nonsensical. And the same thing applies here in that you're foregoing rejection for what seems like emotional, an emotional connection with a woman that you don't really know.

   13. CWChris Williamson7:35

       I see this in the personal development world as well. So a lot of people, if you look at LinkedIn profiles, and that data analysis of LinkedIn profiles found that strategizing was one of the most used words in all... Strategizing or strategy, uh, most used words in all of descriptions, and yet executing or executor wasn't even in the top 100. Reason for that being that it is significantly easier to strategize than execute because by always strategizing and never executing, you prevent yourself from potential failure by inoculating yourself from success. If I just speak rhetorically, there's no chance that I'm going to fail because in my world, in the world that I create of words, that never actually needs to come up against reality.

   14. VHVincent Harinam8:16

       Mm-hmm. You're completely correct. I, I don't disagree with that at all. I mean, action wins the day, right? As that saying goes. And, you know, everyone has a plan, or excuse me, everyone has a dream, but no one has a plan. And it's not only having a plan, it's executing the plan, right? We can talk as much as we want about things we want to do or, you know, a girl we like to talk to and get into a relationship, a business we would like to start, but if you don't put one foot in front of the other and start marching forward and actually taking the necessary step towards achieving those things, you're never going to achieve it.

   15. CWChris Williamson8:45

       Why do you think there is a current trend amongst men towards this easier route out, whether that be in video games or in dating?

   16. VHVincent Harinam8:56

       It's a good question, and it's a complex question, which means that the answer is probably multivariate in the sense that there's no simple answer, one, one variable which explains why it is that men are the, are the way they are, uh, in this sense. It's, it's probably has to do with socialization, uh, how men are socialized, uh, today, uh, maybe coddling as well, the sort of parenting, um, strategies that, uh, that are used to raise young boys and rear them. Um, it's, it's, it's a good question, but I would say those are probably the two things that I would, I would probably point to, that we sort of bred out the warrior aspect, the, uh, the sort of frontiersman notion in men, right? That, that notion of going out there and getting after it has been bred out of a lot of men. And we're sort of afraid or hesitant to engage in things which make us uncomfortable. And I think David Goggins actually, who is a, a personal hero of mine, he talks about it in terms of suffering, that beyond suffering lies greatness, but in order to achieve greatness, you first have to suffer. And people are just terrified of, of discomfort and suffering, which, you know, they're, they're, they're scary things, yes, but if you want to be where you want to be, you're going to have to suffer, right? You're going to have to, uh, you know, to pay the price.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:10

       Not only is this happening on an individual level, but you've also got a cultural level of this with regards to the views around masculinity, men overall, what the definition of a man is.

   18. VHVincent Harinam10:21

       Yes, yes. That's a curious thing, actually. I want to ask you about that specifically, how you would define,

4. 10:26 – 16:48

   What Does it Mean to be a Man?

   1. VHVincent Harinam10:26

      uh, what, what a man is or what it means to be a man.

   2. CWChris Williamson10:29

      Okay, well, I'm going to, uh, go back to our mutual friend, uh, Rob Henderson, because he-

   3. VHVincent Harinam10:35

      Uh-oh. (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson10:36

      ... he recently posted a, a stat on one of his newsletters. And again, like this is ... If, if anyone's playing fucking Rob Henderson bingo at home-

   5. VHVincent Harinam10:47

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson10:47

      ... um, because they should be, uh-

   7. VHVincent Harinam10:49

      Yes.

   8. CWChris Williamson10:50

      I brought, uh, Rory Sutherland on the show, and, you know, he's one of the smartest behavioral economists on the planet, and he said that, uh, uh, he was in awe of Rob Henderson. Um-

   9. VHVincent Harinam11:02

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:02

       Where is it? So he said that there was three things that all men needed to do, and it was something like, um, always be in control, always show competence-

   11. VHVincent Harinam11:13

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:14

       ... and something else. I mean, the definitions around masculinity and what it means to be a man, you're trying to encapsulate a felt sense and an embodied sense lexically, which is always going to be a mess, right? Because the words are always going to be slightly imprecise, and because we're looking for generalizations here, people are always going to be able to point out, uh, aberrations of the generalization.

   13. VHVincent Harinam11:38

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson11:39

       Um, but overall, I, I, I think I agree. I can't find the particular quote. Um, but I think I agree. It's to do with a competency, a control of oneself and one's own emotions, um, leadership from the front, taking responsibility. Um, you know, these things, whether you're a man or a woman, w- a masculine man or a masculine woman, I think that anybody that embodies those traits, you would say, "Yeah, that's, you know, that's a fairly masculine way to be."

   15. VHVincent Harinam12:09

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like that, and I completely agree with it. So Jack Donovan, who is, um... I, I don't really know what you would call him. Maybe you've, you've heard of him or, or read some of his books. He, um, he's a fascinating figure, I think, because he writes on masculinity, and, uh, two books in particular that I've read of his, um, uh, The Tribe and The Way of Men. And he states that masculinity is a combination of four things. So we have honor, we have strength, we have courage, and we have mastery. And, uh, I like those, but in my mind, I have a tripartite model as well. So I would say that it's based around, um, courage, which I think he's right, so being afraid of doing something, but then doing it anyway. Uh, the second, which relates to something you said, is personal responsibility verging on extreme ownership. And extreme ownership is a term that is, is used, um, by Jocko Willink. So taking, taking control not only of, of the things within your world and your realm, but branching out and taking care of, of issues that are not necessarily your problem, but things that you must take care of. And the final thing, I believe, is conquest, so having a goal, having an aim, wanting to put a dent in the universe. And then the through line between all of these three concepts is emotional control. So for me, I... Uh, the hallmark of masculinity is emotional control. It doesn't matter how you feel when you get up in the morning. There's a job to be done, and you have to do it, right? Uh, you know, young men storming the beaches of Normandy, you know, didn't cry i- in the corner. They, they went out there, and they, they won the war. They defeated the Nazis.

   16. CWChris Williamson13:34

       But conversely as well, if you were to look at a woman who had high emotional control, who had goals that she was going to go and get after, who was courageous and brave in chasing those things down, that would be... I would certainly be an outlier. It would be the sort of woman that you would expect would be, uh, rising up through a, a law firm or starting her own business. You know, that's... If you, if you have boss bitch, like, that's what would go next to it.

   17. VHVincent Harinam14:02

       Yes. Yes. It's, it's, it... And that's also fascinating as well, that we typically apply these characteristics to males more than we do females. And, uh, I, I think it's, it has to do a lot with how we're socialized and the sort of media that we consume, in that we, we attribute these characters to strong men as opposed to strong women, which, as you pointed out, it, it... You know, women can and do have these, these qualities, but they're typically at the very end, the very upper echelon of their fields. They dominate their dominance hierarchies, as Jordan Peterson would probably put it.

   18. CWChris Williamson14:30

       Well, the reason being that disagreeableness, you know, to go down the Jordan Peterson route-

   19. VHVincent Harinam14:34

       Oh, yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson14:34

       ... like, well, disagreeableness and a bunch of other psychological traits will tend people in, uh, that are males toward having this type of an approach to life.

   21. VHVincent Harinam14:45

       Yes. Yes. So disagreeableness is a fascinating characteristic. So of the big five personality traits, if one wanted to be a success in a specific field or reach the top of their dominance hierarchy, they would have to be low in agreeableness and high in disagreeableness, because it's a matter of getting, getting one's way and not being a pushover, being a, a monster, in Jordan Peterson's, uh, phrasiology. And a lot of that involves... Uh, I think, w- Jordan Peterson, he refers to Carl Jung. So he... Jung talks about integrating one's shadow, so taking the, the negative or dangerous part of oneself and using it to one's own ends. And disagreeability is, I think, a, a large part of that.

   22. CWChris Williamson15:22

       Yeah, and I suppose that a lack of disagreeability is precisely what you're seeing with simps.

   23. VHVincent Harinam15:28

       Yes. Yeah. So to that point of disagreabil- f- diff- discreability, when we talk about economics, one study demonstrated that if someone was, a man in particular, was one standard deviation below, uh, the level of agreeableness, they would have, um... They would earn 18% more than a man who was one standard deviation above the baseline agreeableness, which means that discreable people make more money than agreeable people.

   24. CWChris Williamson15:54

       And also potentially get laid more or-

   25. VHVincent Harinam15:57

       Yes.

   26. CWChris Williamson15:57

       ... are more attractive to the opposite sex. However, I would say, and we can get into this, the converse would be untrue for women.

   27. VHVincent Harinam16:06

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson16:07

       That if you have a woman who is increasingly disagreeable, that she is probably going to be less attractive as a mate.

   29. VHVincent Harinam16:13

       Yes. Yes. Because disagreeableness, I think, is more of a masculine characteristic, at least based on the psychological, the, um, uh, the psychological evidence. The cognitive psychology would indicate that to be the case. And I think on average, on average is, is a term we're probably going to be using quite a bit-

   30. CWChris Williamson16:28

       Everything's on average.
5. 16:48 – 25:50

   Defining ‘Dark Gentlemen’

   1. VHVincent Harinam16:48

      it.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:48

      Yeah. What's a dark gentleman?

   3. VHVincent Harinam16:51

      Ah. So dark gentleman is a term I've coined, uh, to reflect an, a man who has both dark triad characteristics in some capacity but is also benevolent. So he's not your, you know, psycho Chad, you know, uh, narcissist that wants to sleep with women, but he also incorporates the three Ps, that is parental investment, protection, and provision. So it's this, it's this what I like to call a unity of contradiction, so combining, uh, two things which are in logical contrast but molding them together such that they work in harmony.

   4. CWChris Williamson17:24

      Hmm. That's really interesting.

   5. VHVincent Harinam17:27

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:27

      So that's because there is a, there is a particular, uh, degree of attraction that women have toward dark triad traits. Why is that?

   7. VHVincent Harinam17:35

      Yes. Yes. Those men are sexy, right? It's, it's the, it's the, um... These characteristics make people, make these sorts of people seem as though they are important, right? There is that danger that is often attributed to a man that is, that is, uh, psychopathic or Machiavellian. And with narcissism, it makes perfect sense, right? A guy that dresses well, has... You know, uh, smiles, uh, i- is very attractive, in other words. So he, uh, he fulfills that Chad component. But a man who is fully on the dark triad spectrum doesn't necessarily fulfill the dad perspective, which women are also looking for on a long- long-term perspective. So if you're actually combining the short-term, which is the dar- the dark triad aspect of it, and the long-term perspective, which is the, the dad, you know-... from a triple P perspective, you're getting the perfect guy in a sense. You're getting that unicorn.

   8. CWChris Williamson18:24

      Because you need an element, or most men with elements of dark triad traits are more successful in short-term mating opportunities, but make bad term long- uh, bad long-term mate prospects. So-

   9. VHVincent Harinam18:35

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson18:35

       ... getting yourself, uh, through the door, so to speak, um, with the dark triad traits and then continuing and adding longevity to the relationship with your three Ps, so the chad and dad.

   11. VHVincent Harinam18:47

       Yes, precisely that. So I was actually having a conversation with Jordan Peterson about this, where he was saying that women want a man that is disagreeable, but also agreeable at the same time because disagreeability is actually a law of diminishing returns, where, you know, i- if a man is disagreeable in, in, uh, his workplace, right, he, he's probably gonna get an ad- advance, as we discussed, in terms of economics, they typically make more money. But in a domestic setting, a high level of disagreeability doesn't work very well. So if your wife sel- tells you, "Hey, baby, go take, take out the trash," and you say, "No, I don't want to do so. I'm disagreeable," it's probably not going to be conducive to a, a long and happy marriage.

   12. CWChris Williamson19:22

       Mm. But it's as with everything, man, you need a balance.

   13. VHVincent Harinam19:25

       Yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson19:26

       You don't want to be out on the top 10th percentile or bottom 10th percentile of anything ever, really. Like I said, I was a... (laughs) I was a, um, I tried to justify, uh, the number one competitive advantage in the modern world is to be 10% autistic over Thanksgiving dinner-

   15. VHVincent Harinam19:49

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson19:49

       ... the other day. (laughs) You just want, you just want... It's like, you know that, the Salt Bae guy? You just want that-

   17. VHVincent Harinam19:55

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson19:55

       ... much, you want that much autism, and it's-

   19. VHVincent Harinam19:57

       Just a sprinkling.

   20. CWChris Williamson19:58

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, precisely. Just a smattering, you know?

   21. VHVincent Harinam20:01

       I think there's, I think there's probably some truth to that-

   22. CWChris Williamson20:02

       (laughs)

   23. VHVincent Harinam20:03

       ... because you want to have that sort of gung-ho kind of fuck you mentality where you kind of just go off and do your own thing-

   24. CWChris Williamson20:08

       Yep.

   25. VHVincent Harinam20:08

       ... and kind of just throw caution to the wind. But you kind of have to dial it back-

   26. CWChris Williamson20:11

       Yep.

   27. VHVincent Harinam20:11

       ... in, in a sense. You can't go, you can't... Well, I'm going to use a, you, you know... This is going to get me canceled if I use it, but, uh, it's sort of a tropic, tropic thunder, thunder term, I think, of the phrase is go, go full retard, as it were.

   28. CWChris Williamson20:22

       Yep.

   29. VHVincent Harinam20:23

       So you- (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson20:23

       That's fine. I've used, I've used, I used that, I used that last week on the podcast-
6. 25:50 – 34:27

   Why More Men are Single than Women

   1. CWChris Williamson25:50

      quote that you put in here saying, "According to Pew Research, 51% of men between the ages of 18 and 29 are single, compared to 32% of women in the same age group." Uh, how the fuck does that work? Because the s- the gender split of men and women is around about 50/50.

   2. VHVincent Harinam26:04

      (laughs) Well, it probably works because there's, there's probably a, um, a small percentage of men or, or a, an outsized proportion of men, uh, probably a small percentage of men that are dating a lot of these women, and when pro- prob- probably perceive that they're in a relationship with these men when in actuality he's probably dating a variety of different women. And, you know, tied to that concept of that 51% of men is the notion that the reason why they're single is primarily because they're too afraid to, to ask a woman out, and it goes back to that concept we were talking about, rejection. So, uh, guys using OnlyFans, it, it sort of takes away the sting of rejection.

   3. CWChris Williamson26:39

      Yes. What was that? "The ineffectiveness of simping lies in its pedestalization of women in the absence of genuine intimacy. While the gentleman holds doors and pays for dinner and engages in the women, with the women on an emotional level, the simp inundates a woman with extravagant gifts and superficial praise. The simp engages in romantic bribery, attempting to buy a woman's love." And that's just not gonna work.

   4. VHVincent Harinam27:02

      No. No, it doesn't, 'cause I... Look, I, I'm of the belief that women are masters at spotting bullshit. They can see it a mile away, especially when it comes to romantic conquest. And if a man is not genuine in his intentions and his, his courtship of her, she's gonna spot that very, very quickly.

   5. CWChris Williamson27:17

      How would a simp not be genuine?

   6. VHVincent Harinam27:21

      Well, if it's always about giving undue praise and gifts, well, there's, there's something wrong there, right? If, if there isn't any pure emotional interaction, if there isn't, isn't any need to engage her beyond simply giving her praise and attention, well, he's not really gonna get through the front door, is he?

   7. CWChris Williamson27:37

      Uh, so there's a, there's a underwritten expected reciprocation which isn't being adhered to.

   8. VHVincent Harinam27:43

      Yes. And there's sort of this cat and mouse game that you could, you probably play with a girl that you're trying to court, right? I think the push and, push and pull, uh, process is what it's referred to. And if, if all you're doing is giving attention to a female, your attention is worthless. It's a getting, getting too much of something makes it, makes it essentially worthless. So, you know, I, I don't know what your favorite food is, but let's say you love pizza. If you had pizza every single day, it no longer becomes your favorite food because you're eating it on a daily basis and it loses its luster over time. And the same thing applies with attention in this case here, where the value of a man's attention is lost if it's constant.

   9. CWChris Williamson28:21

      "The number of men aged 18 to 30 who report having no sex in the past year has tripled between 2008 and 2018." So this is pre-pandemic, and I imagine it must have gotten an awful lot worse through the pandemic as well.

   10. VHVincent Harinam28:33

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:33

       Why do you think this is happening?

   12. VHVincent Harinam28:34

       It was probably higher than 31% or whatever it was when it was r- reported, 'cause that's not something that, that a lot of men would actually report to people. It's sort of a, it's, it's stigmatized, right? The male, the male virgin is something which is stigmatized within society. But I think the reason why this is, is, again, it's a complex question which probably has a multivariate answer. Uh, so it, it could be the case that it's men being pushed out of the sexual marketplace because women are typically looking for a guy at, uh, at the, you know, the ten- the, the 90th percentile, right? The, the power few as it were, at the end of the power law distribution. Uh, that could be a potential reason, so they're not finding women that are necessarily interested in them because they are, let's say, average, right? Socioeconomically speaking. It could be the case that they've actually dropped out of the sexual marketplace. So excessive use of pornography, playing video games, not putting themselves in a situation in which they can court women and actually engage with them. That is probably another reason why.

   13. CWChris Williamson29:31

       That's-

   14. VHVincent Harinam29:31

       For me, I think that's, that's a big too, but go on, go on.

   15. CWChris Williamson29:33

       That's interesting. So (clears throat) I think, you know, black pill, incel culture, red pill, Kevin Samuels fans, everyone wants to blame the lack of sex or the vast majority of people want to blame the lack of sex on, uh, uh, women's standards being too high, or at least for the people who aren't familiar with this corner of the internet, that's a, a big explanation. But the fact that some men have chosen to retreat from dating because there's simply other more fun things to do, you know, it's not just about the black pills that can't and the red pills that won't, it's the MGTOWs that choose not to.

   16. VHVincent Harinam30:11

       Yes. Men that go their own way. Absolutely correct. And, uh, look, a lot of this comes down to effort. If, if you actually want to have a girlfriend and actually have a meaningful relationship with a girl, you're gonna have to try. You're gonna have to put your- yourself out there and you're gonna have to suffer rejection. Rejection, I think, is a, is a large part about, um... Well, re- it, it really is a masculine feature. So dealing with rejection. Of course, females as, as well can deal with rejection, but dealing with rejection, handling it, is how you, you build a backbone, right? It's how you develop a thick skin.... and the more times you suffer rejection in, uh, you know, when it comes to dating and courtship, the better you are at it.

   17. CWChris Williamson30:46

       Why do you think we are so terrified of rejection as men?

   18. VHVincent Harinam30:52

       Pain. Suffering. No one likes to feel as though they're inadequate and (laughs) Jo- Jordan Peterson, actually, again, go back to, going back to him, he has this, uh, fantastic line about, um, when a man suffers rejection when he's, uh, when a woman says no to him. He, he, so he's essentially saying that she doesn't want to reproduce with you and, uh, carry on your genetic line, and it's a, it's a fundamental shot to the ego, and nobody wants that. But, you know, (laughs) a- a- again, if, if you do want to actually a- achieve that, right, to, to spread your, um, your genes as it were, you're gonna have to take hits.

   19. CWChris Williamson31:27

       Do you think that women feel the same pain of rejection, just that they ask less frequently than men and that they will passively get... They are, uh, how would you say? They're getting passive traffic, uh, and men are having to create active adverts, uh-

   20. VHVincent Harinam31:43

       Yes, yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:43

       ... to, to u- to use the online marketing vernacular.

   22. VHVincent Harinam31:46

       How... Well, yes. Good, good, uh, good, uh, terms there, good phraseology. How many girls have actively asked you out that you can think of?

   23. CWChris Williamson31:54

       It's in, dude, over 15 years of being out and about and nights out, I can remember most of them.

   24. VHVincent Harinam31:59

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson31:59

       I'm talking single digits.

   26. VHVincent Harinam32:01

       Yes. Ask an eye. It's, like, maybe two. (laughs) It's, it's not that much, right? And so women aren't taking the, you know, the, the, the active effort to, to engage with a man and ask him for his number, and so therefore, they don't suffer as much rejection. But when they do suffer the rejection, I can imagine that it's pretty damn painful because it's not in your nature, let's say, to actually put yourself out there and initiate the conversation or initiate the engagement.

   27. CWChris Williamson32:25

       Oh. So you've already overcome something. You've already decided to make an increased effort on top of what you think should be done. This is-

   28. VHVincent Harinam32:33

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson32:33

       ... outside my normal operating pro- uh, sc- schedule, and it still hasn't worked. Well, if there's-

   30. VHVincent Harinam32:39

       Yes.
7. 34:27 – 41:32

   Impact of Eugenics in Dating

   1. CWChris Williamson34:27

      think that the things that you find attractive, you find attractive? Why? For everything. My favorite example of this, right, um, the preferred body size of women over time has fluctuated.

   2. VHVincent Harinam34:38

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson34:38

      You've gone from bigger women, you know, Marilyn Monroe wasn't a, a, a thin, uh, famous actress, uh, right up to the thigh gap desire of sort of the early 2000s-

   4. VHVincent Harinam34:48

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson34:48

      ... to now kind of the more, like, fit chick, Insta bum, BBL shit that you've got now. However-

   6. VHVincent Harinam34:53

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson34:54

      ... throughout all of time, the preferred waist-to-hip ratio of women has remained the same, and it's always been around 0.82. Why? Because women that have a higher ha- waist, waist-to-hip ratio on average are more fertile. The same thing goes for-

   8. VHVincent Harinam35:07

      Fertility.

   9. CWChris Williamson35:07

      ... large eyes, flushed lips, uh, ro- rosy cheeks, because those are signs of youth. Youth also equals fertility. With men, the V-taper is precisely the same. Preferred body size for men over time has changed, but an increase in width, an increase in jaw size, an increase in brow ridge are all signals of high testosterone. Testosterone equals more status, more resources, more go-getter, probably, um, more disagreeable. I would imagine that men who have higher levels of testosterone are more disagreeable as well. So, like, all of the things that we happen to like, even symmetrical faces, it's genetically more difficult to grow a symmetrical face than an unsymmetrical face, and then you have the sexy son hypothesis. If I'm attracted to this man, my children will be attractive. Therefore, our genetic lineage will continue more easily. Um, all of these things, the reason that you're attracted to the things that you're attracted to is mostly because they are signals of fitness.

   10. VHVincent Harinam35:59

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:00

       And realizing, (laughs) realizing that... I, I had, uh, Robert Plomin on the show, behavioral, uh, geneticist, and people get real uncomfortable talking about behavioral genetics because it, it reminds them of eugenics in a way that it absolutely shouldn't. Um, and the only person that you should co- complain about if you are throwing the eugenics term around at a behavioral geneticist is, "Why aren't you dating that homeless, four-foot-four, jobless man on the street that doesn't wash? Like, why aren't you... Or other guy. Why aren't you dating that girl that you can't bear to look at and is super annoying and super disagreeable? Why?"

   12. VHVincent Harinam36:40

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:40

       That's, that's eugenics as well.

   14. VHVincent Harinam36:41

       Yes, yes. Well, uh, that was a fantastic summary of the literature. That was great, Chris. I really like that. Uh, but, eh, basically what this comes down to is ancient ideas in modern skulls. So, a lot of what we do, uh, at the level of... Of course there are idiosyncrasies between people. We like what we like for a variety of reasons and maybe social, so there's that notion that we marry people like our parents. But even still, that is a combination of, of, um, biological determinism and, um, sort of social rearing. But at the same time, the evolutionary, uh, lens here is incredibly important. That a lot of what we find attractive, so you pointed out, uh, youth and fertility when it comes to men and their mate preferences, is something which is borne out in the, in, in evolution, right? This is, these are things which, which we look for, um, men i- in looking for women. And on, uh, for females, the same sort of thing applies with, as you mentioned, the V-taper, with men having certain physical characteristics which made them more of a protector and more of a provider. Women are typically going to, i- in, in antiquity as well as in, as today, put their, their interest or their, their lot behind a man who is capable of taking care of them. And that was especially the case in, in, um, evolutionary, in an evolutionary er- so ancient times. But it's also carried off, uh, over today.

   15. CWChris Williamson37:56

       Mm. What are some of the unique challenges that we've got with modern mate selection?

   16. VHVincent Harinam38:00

       Well, the primary problem, and I do think that it is verging into a very, very, very serious issue, is the imbalance in the sexual marketplace, where there is a, a presumably a small percentage of men who are, uh, receiving the most attention from women. That women want men in the upper echelon, um, socioeconomically speaking, right? They want a man that earns, um, top 10% in terms of income, that has a square jawline, that has a six-pack, you know, is, is in the top 10 in terms of height as well. And these characteristics, when put together, uh, equate for a very small percentage of men. And if the majority of women are vying for these men and ignoring the rest of them, that creates not only a large number of lonely women, but it creates a lot of sexually frustrated men. And those two things are not, are not necessarily, or not even very good if we're looking at, um, a prosperous society.

   17. CWChris Williamson39:00

       Why is that a modern phenomenon? Surely these impulses have been with us throughout time.

   18. VHVincent Harinam39:05

       So the impulses, yes. The one impulse being hypergamy, so women dating upwards is something which has been ingrained and, uh, constant throughout, um, human existence. But I think the three things which have changed, uh, at least in the last 50 years are, one, female achievement. So women are typically earning more than men in a certain age bracket, and they're going to college at a higher rate. So just to give you an example of the statistics. So in the 1960s, there were 1.6 men to every female at a four-year US college. By 2003, there were 1.35 women for every man in a four-year US college. And women are going to college and earning degrees at a higher rate than men. And this also applies to post-graduate degrees, where something like 12% of women have a post-graduate degree relative to 8% of men. And i- when it comes to the economics as well, these, The Press Association compiled a lot of data looking at, um, economics, so earnings. And what they found was that women between the ages of 20 and 29 made, on average, £1111 more than a man in that same age demographic. So, that's one point, the one factor being improved, uh, female attainment. The second factor is that there's a greater variability among males, and this is with regard to economic earnings and such, right? All the characteristics that you would look for in a viable partner, that there is a wider distribution of men, um, economically, so making more money, um, entertaining more sexual partners. And so this variability is, of course, gonna play to that, that top 10% of, of men. And the third thing is, uh, I think this is an important one, 'cause it's, it's probably with regard or, or with relation to technology. So, an expansion or globalization of a sex- of the sexual marketplace and the collapse of local se- of, um, of local status hierarchies where things like Instagram, things like Tinder are making it such that there's an international pool of partners with which you can select from that you couldn't have before. So 50 years ago, you know, you'd probably meet someone, uh, a, a romantic, uh, uh, a, a romantic prospect in a, in a bar, a local bar, or at a, a rec center or whatever it is. Certainly my parents met, uh, locally, right? They were maybe from different villages or something. But you know, they, they, it was, it was a local phenomenon, but today everything is international, everything is globalized. And that, all these characteristics together along with hypergamy has resulted in this massive imbalance.

8. 41:32 – 47:50

   Reality of the Gender Wage-gap

   1. VHVincent Harinam41:32

   2. CWChris Williamson41:32

      How is it if there's women out-educated and out-earning men between the ages of 20 and 29, how is it that there's still a commonly held assumption in the culture about men out-earning, uh, out-earning women, about women being held back?

   3. VHVincent Harinam41:49

      Do you want the, the, uh, sort of dude bro answer?

   4. CWChris Williamson41:52

      Both. Give me all of them.

   5. VHVincent Harinam41:53

      Both. Well, the dude bro answer is that people are dumb and un- uninformed and they typically go along with memes and messages. That's a joke, by the way. I don't think people are dumb. I think it's a matter of, of just the amount of in- information that's being presented and how it's being presented. Because if, if members of the media are just presenting that narrative over and over again, it's going to stick, right? It's, it's, we're just playing off heuristics here. Uh, I think that's the main thing. That's the reason why this narrative sticks. This notion of the gender pay gap is sticking around despite the copious amounts of research done about it. The fact that if you actually disaggregate the, the, um, the data, if you looked at hours worked, if you looked at industry, if you looked at job type/occupation, these sorts of things, you would see that there's a reason why it is that men on average make more than women. Not to mention the fact that women between the ages of, of 20 and 29 make more w- make, uh, more money than men with, men within that age demographic. What happens at age, you know, 29 is after that is probably motherhood-So, it's not even a question of men and women making more or less than the other. It's a question of everyone else making more than mothers.

   6. CWChris Williamson42:59

      The interesting thing to me, I've been thinking about this for so long, is the presumption amongst common culture and people that put forward this, th- the idea about the gender wage gap, is that the inherently masculine frame is the attainable, admirable, preferable one that everybody should be playing on. It's like the, um, values that we've typically associated with men or with masculinity or with men's, uh, trajectory through life is the one, th- those are the rules of the game that everybody should be playing by, and now we need to kind of manipulate it so that everyone gets to play that game. Does that make sense?

   7. VHVincent Harinam43:38

      Uh, yeah, sort of. I think so. We're, we're gonna go over that.

   8. CWChris Williamson43:40

      Well, think about the fact, think about the fact that, um, there are a lot of women out there who might want to wipe the floor with men and get their post-graduate degree and earn, you know, a grand and a bit more per year throughout all of their 20s, but-

   9. VHVincent Harinam43:52

      Yes.

   10. CWChris Williamson43:52

       ... can't, can't wait to become mothers and don't actually mind about the fact that they get to become mothers. And yet, the woman that decides to do that is seen through this particular lens as lesser-

   11. VHVincent Harinam44:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson44:02

       ... because she's decided to play the game that isn't the typical masculinity approach.

   13. VHVincent Harinam44:07

       Yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson44:08

       Well, why haven't you only taken your three months maternity leave? Because you know in, I think it's in Australia, you kind of have like this big block of time and you can repurpose it between the man and the woman across both jobs. I don't really know how that works 'cause the two companies are going to be different, but, uh, anyway, uh, yeah, why is it that you're not going straight back to work? That, to me, I must imagine for women that really can't wait to be mothers must provide a level of ambient anxiety and maybe even guilt around the fact that they have decided to either be a mother or go back to work when they should feel like they're doing the opposite.

   15. VHVincent Harinam44:42

       Mm-hmm. So, that probably has to do quite a bit with societal pressure, so, uh, you know, women needing to work or, or not even societal pressure, but just, uh, an ingrain-

   16. CWChris Williamson44:51

       Economic pressure.

   17. VHVincent Harinam44:52

       ... economic pressure. (overlapping dialogue) Yes. So, the fact that both adults in the household need to work in order to provide for, for everyone else is a, is a clear factor here. But, to your point, that, that is also an interesting thing where it is assumed that a woman should go off and, and get a job and, and do, and, and do all those sorts of things. But what if she doesn't want to? Right? All this comes down to personal choice. If you want to work and achieve a, a PhD and be a captive indus- uh, uh, of industry as a woman, you're free to do so. Do it. But if you decide that at the age of 21 or even at the age of 18, before you even go to a, uh, a college that you want to be a mother, you can do that also. I don't see the problem with it. The issue is that people have to understand that there are consequences and, and, um, and benefits to doing certain things, and we all have to live with it. You can't simply do something and then complain about the action or the, the results of the action.

   18. CWChris Williamson45:45

       Rolling the clock forward then, you can only have long-term, realistically, you can only have at one time one man to one woman unless you're in some crazy polygamy re- retreat somewhere. Um, with that in mind, you would expect women to adjust their dating strategies in order to be able to find themselves a mate. But based on the stats, it doesn't really seem like that's bearing out.

   19. VHVincent Harinam46:10

       No. No, that's correct, and I think this probably comes down to hypergamy as well, is that women won't settle. Well, the average woman probably won't settle. She'll probably go after the type of man that she wants and if she doesn't get him, she's more than happy to be single. She's more than happy to, to work on her career and do what she needs to do. Which is, again, perfectly fine. You do what you, you want to do, you do what you need to do. But it obviously becomes an issue when there is a lot of men out there without a partner, without a, a, you know, a, a person that, um, y- y- you know, is there for them. And, you know, societies where young men are without partners are ones that typically become destabilized and crumble within a short period of time or short span of time.

   20. CWChris Williamson46:54

       What's an example of that?

   21. VHVincent Harinam46:54

       So, it's one thing... So, I think in antiquity as well, uh, uh, uh... I'm trying to remember the, uh, there's a, there's an ancient society that had this particular issue. But, but certainly it's the case that when young men uprise and when they don't necessarily have, uh, a productive means of actually, you know, conforming (overlapping dialogue) 　 themselves, they will typically tear a society apart.

   22. CWChris Williamson47:18

       Hmm. I mean, everybody knows the dynamics that you're talking about. Everybody knows the guy friend who is a complete savage and doesn't really care about who he goes home with after he's had a couple of drinks, right? We all had that-

   23. VHVincent Harinam47:30

       Yes.

   24. CWChris Williamson47:31

       We all had that buddy at university. Not many of us had that girl buddy at university or far less so, right?

   25. VHVincent Harinam47:39

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson47:41

       Um, yet, I don't know, it strikes me as, as, uh, uh, a particularly sort of unfortunate combination of circumstances, another one

9. 47:50 – 54:09

   How Casual Sex Misinforms Long-term Relationship Goals

   1. CWChris Williamson47:50

      being that if you have, um, more lax rules around casual sex before marriage and, uh, birth control, which means that you can have sex without fear of having children, that means that women can have sex with high value men who are outside of their typical dating pool and perhaps higher value than they would usually have access to, which then skews their goals moving forward about who they want to be in a long-term relationship with. What they don't understand is that that man was prepared to give them sex, but not prepared to give them a relationship.

   2. VHVincent Harinam48:20

      Relationship.

   3. CWChris Williamson48:21

      Yep.

   4. VHVincent Harinam48:22

      Yes, yes. That's an incredibly important point here. Uh, it- it's, it's a matter of knowing what's available and what you can actually attain, being realistic about your romantic prospects. So, that high value man that is a top 10% earner that drives a Bugatti was probably never going to entertain a romantic relationship with you. So, why try to court him at the outset? Right? What was the benefit there? Maybe it was a, it was a fun night and maybe you do enjoy engaging with him. But you are right when you say that it probably distorts their perception of what then is available.... because if, if you do have this experience with this guy and it was a fantastic experience and you're head over heels for him, you want to replicate that experience in, in, in the next sort of relationships you have. But if that guy that you're dating doesn't quite reach that standard, you're never going to be happy.

   5. CWChris Williamson49:10

      But which girl wants to admit to herself that this guy with the nice car and the good abs only wants me to fuck me? No one wants... No, no girl's going to be able to, uh, do that. You know? You... Not only would you probably not know, but even if you did know, you wouldn't be able to justify it to yourself in any case.

   6. VHVincent Harinam49:26

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson49:27

      Um, you know, it's the same as the guy (laughs) ... The same as the guy that sleeps with a really, really ugly girl. He'll probably justify it to himself as, "Well, actually she's not that bad," and it's this, that, and the other. And you think, "No, dude, it's because you've had eight pints, and you're in a city that you've never been in before, and you're lonely. That's why."

   8. VHVincent Harinam49:42

      Yes.

   9. CWChris Williamson49:43

      Um-

   10. VHVincent Harinam49:43

       Yes, yes, uh-

   11. CWChris Williamson49:44

       So-

   12. VHVincent Harinam49:44

       Lays a layer, right? (overlapping)

   13. CWChris Williamson49:45

       Yes, correct.

   14. VHVincent Harinam49:47

       Hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson49:48

       I don't know, man. I think, um... I think it'd be very difficult for a, a girl to kind of concede that point. You know, uh, th- th- one of the main reasons would be men give off signals of long-term mating strategies. Very few men, you know, no matter how alpha you are, are going to say, um, "Hope that you've got your Uber booked for 3:30 AM tonight," um, type thing-

   16. VHVincent Harinam50:12

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson50:12

       ... as you're on the w- as you're on the way back. Or, "Hiya, mate, can you just wait outside in the cab while, while we get this done and then you can take her home?" Most men-

   18. VHVincent Harinam50:19

       Right.

   19. CWChris Williamson50:19

       ... aren't honest and open about their short-term mating intentions, which l- it's lead w- leading women on.

   20. VHVincent Harinam50:26

       Yes. Th- I think that, that is true, but at the same time, does, does being open make a man more or less attractive with regard to his intention? So if, if you met a girl right away and you took her out on a first date or may- maybe even a second date and you said to her, "Uh, my intention is to marry you," does that make you more or less attractive if you are that transparent? I mean, what do you think? M- Maybe.

   21. CWChris Williamson50:48

       I would say that's probably coming on too strong.

   22. VHVincent Harinam50:50

       That's coming on too strong. Right. So that sort of transparency may not necessarily work in that particular situation.

   23. CWChris Williamson50:57

       But the most bizarre thing is that the men who have no intention of being in a long-term relationship with you usually give off signals that they do-

   24. VHVincent Harinam51:07

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson51:07

       ... and the men who do want to be in a long-term relationship with you try to give off signals that they're not.

   26. VHVincent Harinam51:12

       Yes. But, but that's the thing though, is that it's, it's a strange... It's a strange way that, um, I suppose, the, the female mind perceives attractive males. And it probably comes back to the point about attention, is that you want that which you cannot have. You know? And i- if you can't have the, the man that is, uh, you know, the upper echelon of men, the high-value men, you'll want him even more. For as-

   27. CWChris Williamson51:32

       Roll the clock forward for me then. Like, there's gonna be a lot of single women in future.

   28. VHVincent Harinam51:36

       Sure.

   29. CWChris Williamson51:36

       What's gonna happen there? Because-

   30. VHVincent Harinam51:38

       Um-
10. 54:09 – 1:01:40

    Should Humanity Return to Polygamy?

    1. VHVincent Harinam54:09

    2. CWChris Williamson54:09

       I read in The Moral Animal by Robert Wright about how monogamy is a sexual redistribution strategy.

    3. VHVincent Harinam54:17

       Oh yeah?

    4. CWChris Williamson54:18

       Yeah. So this, this really fascinated me, the fact that-

    5. VHVincent Harinam54:21

       Yes.

    6. CWChris Williamson54:21

       ... if you have one man with many women, you allow one particular man to capture most of the market. Whereas if-

    7. VHVincent Harinam54:26

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson54:26

       ... you have one man with one woman, you actually end up, um, allowing man number two to get woman number two, whereas previously he would have been looking at woman number 11, because-

    9. VHVincent Harinam54:36

       Yes.

    10. CWChris Williamson54:37

        ... women one to 10 would have been with man number one. And that, um, that kind of explains, I think, some of the resentment that you see in the black pill culture and in the incel culture around these Chads, these high-value men that are able to sleep with many women, because they see them as tying up...... available women's reproduction potential during fertile years when they could have been dating other people, and also, uh, how would you say, kind of, uh, bunching up the line, moving the queue tighter and tighter together, uh-

    11. VHVincent Harinam55:09

        Yes.

    12. CWChris Williamson55:09

        ... i- i- in a way which has trickled down effect that has potentially competed them out of the dating market.

    13. VHVincent Harinam55:14

        Absolutely. So these, these, uh, black pill guys will... A- as the meme goes, they hate Chad and Stacy. And i- i- it's funny you mention that because I... You are correct. So, and, um, the research, or I forget the name that you mentioned-

    14. CWChris Williamson55:26

        Robert Wright is the book.

    15. VHVincent Harinam55:27

        Robert Wright, yes. Entirely correct, I think, in, in that monogamy in, in the, um, the grand scheme of things is, is probably a, a newer concept, a newer thing that's come about. It was never the case in antiquity that we engage in monogamy. It was typically polygamous, right? We had harems and such. And I do think that there is an argument to be made about returning to that, specifically when we talk about imbalance in the sexual marketplace with a small percentage of men hogging a large percentage of women. So, if we look at Tinder data, for example. Uh, it's... You know, most of the men on Tinder, of the profiles they come across, females, they'll swipe right on 60% of them. When it comes to females, they'll only swipe right on 4.5% of them. So, that is a massive imbalance just on Twitter usage, and that, that is even compounded by the fact that 78% of individuals that use Tinder are male, and so 22% of people that use Tinder are female. Which means, of the demographic, of the smallest demographic in, in terms of gender, the vast majority of these, these women are being selected by the vast majority of men. And the opposite is not true for females.

    16. CWChris Williamson56:36

        Dude, I've just realized the implication of what you're saying, and I've never thought of this before. I think about this shit a lot, right?

    17. VHVincent Harinam56:42

        Yes.

    18. CWChris Williamson56:42

        I've read everything that you've read. I've read a lot of stuff around red pill and black pill. And I've only just realized that one of the potential solutions to this is to go back to a polygamous, uh, culture, because if women can't get rid of their hypergamous nature, if we can't rise, uh, raise men's, uh, level of competition up in order to be able to match the women-

    19. VHVincent Harinam57:06

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson57:07

        ... one of the solutions to make fewer people overall be single is to have many women with one man at the top-

    21. VHVincent Harinam57:15

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson57:15

        ... and then just leave the men at the bottom to be cast away. That's fucking terrifying.

    23. VHVincent Harinam57:20

        That's terrifying. And it's, it's not what we want to do. That is a recipe for disaster. That is a recipe for social upheaval and just societal disintegration if men are simply cast aside because they're inadequate. (laughs)

    24. CWChris Williamson57:32

        Fuck.

    25. VHVincent Harinam57:33

        Yeah.

    26. CWChris Williamson57:33

        But that's the case at the moment. That's the case at the moment with it being non-polygamous.

    27. VHVincent Harinam57:37

        Mm-hmm. Non-polygamous, correct. So, imagine a society like China, where there is a massive gender imbalance based off of the, the, uh, one child policy that they initiated, you know, centuries back, and now looking at the, the modern sexual dynamics. What do you think is gonna come of that society in 50 to 100 years if, if all this... if our hypotheses here are correct and this plays its course?

    28. CWChris Williamson58:00

        Do you think... Are you talking about if you have one man with many women?

    29. VHVincent Harinam58:05

        Yes. So, the, the... So, i- in essence, so as we just pointed out, it's, it's that, uh, polygamous, uh, that, uh, polygamous set-up where it's one man with, with many women-

    30. CWChris Williamson58:14

        Mm-hmm.
11. 1:01:40 – 1:14:06

    The Disney-fication of Relationships

    1. CWChris Williamson1:01:40

       was very much pushed through the Renaissance. And then if you think about popular recent culture, you've got Disney movies like Aladdin that really, really just fundamentally create this-

    2. VHVincent Harinam1:01:50

       Yes.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:50

       ... there is someone out there that is perfectly built for you and you will spend the rest of your life together.

    4. VHVincent Harinam1:01:55

       Yes. So, I, I have a bone to pick with Disney. I have an ax to grind with them because I think the Disneyfication of romantic relationships is incredibly dangerous. So, uh, so are, are you, uh, your parents still together?

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:07

       Yes.

    6. VHVincent Harinam1:02:08

       Yes. So, our grandparents and our parents are... They typically have lower rates of divorce because the basis of the relationship was not necessarily based on their happiness per se. It was more so getting things done and ensuring that these children were raised in a correct manner, right? And that often meant putting up with the opposite sex, putting up with, uh, your partner despite the fact that they're behaving like a dickhead on that specific day. Today, things, I think, are different because, again, it's that Disneyfication of romantic relationships where if it's not perfect, if it's not a fairy tale, I don't want it, and so it is subject to divorce. And it, again, goes back to that concept of suffering and hardship and rejection. You know, how good was the relationship to begin with if once you hit a, a rough patch, you immediately give up?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:02:56

       I think that you see this as well with the increasing masculinization or the masculine frame that women are being encouraged to take, too. You know, uh, "Don't settle for less." "Clap back." "Be a boss bitch."

    8. VHVincent Harinam1:03:11

       Yes.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:11

       I know that these are all kind of funny Twitter memes, but they permeate the, you know-

    10. VHVincent Harinam1:03:15

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:03:15

        ... phenomenologically, they're in the back of someone's mind, they're in the back of a girl's mind. The fact that, "He doesn't deserve you, babe." All of that sort of stuff is averse to working through challenges with a man who is on a par with your sexual marketplace value. Um-

    12. VHVincent Harinam1:03:32

        Yes.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:03:33

        And the same thing goes for the guys. It's like, "Plenty more fish in the sea." "Get over your last girlfriend by getting under the next one." You know, the, there are meta memes on both sides of the fence here. Now, they're being played in different ways. The men are being reminded to reinforce their masculine traits, and the women are being reminded that a protectionist strategy is to adopt masculine traits.

    14. VHVincent Harinam1:03:52

        Mm-hmm.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:03:52

        But again, what we're seeing... And I, I need to... And I, I might... I, I need to ring Rob for, like, three hours and talk it through, but there is a masculine frame, a masculine preference which is being... It's like when you varnish a table and it's just, it's just like a smattering across everything, or it's like the direction that the wind is pushing. Whether that be with how you're supposed to spend your relationships, how you're supposed to, um, think about education, how you're supposed to think about your career. All of these things, they really do seem to be pushing in that direction. But with the women's side of things, um, yeah, they're being encouraged to not accept a, not a subpar mate, but a, uh, difficult situation-

    16. VHVincent Harinam1:04:32

        Middle-of-the-road average guy. Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:04:33

        Difficult situation with a, uh, equitable mate.

    18. VHVincent Harinam1:04:37

        Yes. Yes. I- it's, it's a problem. And it, obviously you're making the point here about ideas and memes. And it's, it's not just a meme, it's, it's a mode of thinking that is being inculcated by young women and also young men to an extent. And it's incredibly problematic that this, this notion that one must not necessarily settle. And it's fine, right? I don't think you should ever settle per se, but it's, it's more so that you should be very realistic about what it is that's attainable and what it is that's out there. And life is unfair, and you're not always gonna get what you want, and you're just gonna have to deal with it.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:05:10

        But the pro-

    20. VHVincent Harinam1:05:10

        And if more people... Sorry. Well, I was gonna say that if more people were to come to that realization that they would just have to get on with things and just accept them as, as to how they are, well, it'd be a lot simpler, wouldn't it?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:05:21

        What do you mean by that?

    22. VHVincent Harinam1:05:23

        Well, if, if one, if, if, you know, the average female out there who is after, you know, Giga Alpha Chad realizes that she can't actually attain Giga Alpha Chad, and she may, in fact, have to go with, um, you know, Stormin' Norman ex- as an example, or Joey Baga Donuts, she'd have a, she'd have a romantic partner. But it's that notion of settling, being the boss bitch which comes into conflict with it. That what she's told and what she may necessarily need are two different things.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:05:50

        S- such a tough pill to swallow, man. And increasingly, as I've spent more time with this, I do feel for women as well.

    24. VHVincent Harinam1:05:57

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:05:57

        Um, you know, it's easy, I think, in this situation when we're talking about stuff like this to... Men are the obvious victims of this because they're not the ones that are choosing to not be in relationships. They're often, on average, they're the ones that are being overlooked, uh, for being-

    26. VHVincent Harinam1:06:12

        Yes.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:06:12

        ... in relationships. Uh, but the experience isn't that much better for women either. Women didn't choose to have a hypergamous nature.

    28. VHVincent Harinam1:06:19

        Mm-hmm.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:06:19

        They didn't choose to fundamentally find attraction in men who are across and above their dominance hierarchy. And as you put it in one of your articles, it's very difficult to date up and across a dominance hierarchy if you stand atop your own. And as women begin to rise up through theirs, as they become better educated, they become richer, they have more status, and you now have a culture which is encouraging women to value that.

    30. VHVincent Harinam1:06:45

        Mm-hmm.
12. 1:14:06 – 1:18:06

    Can Female Competency Be Detrimental in Dating?

    1. VHVincent Harinam1:14:06

    2. CWChris Williamson1:14:06

       It's a difficult thing that competence in many domains is not something which is seen as attractive by the sex that you're trying to attract as a woman, and also-

    3. VHVincent Harinam1:14:15

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:14:15

       ... actually can be detrimental.

    5. VHVincent Harinam1:14:17

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:14:17

       But you being competent, working hard to get a job, to grow a career, to get status, to earn money, to become educated, all of these things are actually making it more difficult for you to do it. And on top of that, they use up the single most important resource and the most attractive quality you have, which is time and your youth.

    7. VHVincent Harinam1:14:35

       Yes. Yes.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:14:36

       You spend your 20s getting educated, building up your career and earning money to find out that men don't care about your education level, your career, or your wealth, and now you're so, you're older than some women who you're now trying to compete with. That's ... It's not a kick in the balls. Uh, it's a kick in the something else, about-

    9. VHVincent Harinam1:14:59

       It's a punch in the tits. It's awful.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:15:00

        It's a punch in the tit. It's a punch in the tit. You're correct. Uh (laughs) ...

    11. VHVincent Harinam1:15:04

        (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson1:15:04

        Um, uh, fuck, man. This, this entire subject area fascinates me because of how uncomfortable it is. Um, you know, we are bound by our evolutionary precepts, as you called them, to just ... And, and the final thing as well is like, the fundamental choice that you have left as a woman is to ... A- as most women on average, if this hypergamous nature ends up continuing and if the, uh, how would you say? The over-success of women continues to accelerate, uh, is, you have two choices as far as I can see. One of them is to move through life and be single, and the other one is to settle with a mate that you are fundamentally unattracted to. Neither of those seem like particularly good situations. The only advantage that women have over men in this, you know, average value women and average value men, the only advantage that the women have is the fact that they can settle, and the men don't even have that opportunity.

Episode duration: 1:31:36