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What Is Happening With Patreon, Gillette and Brexit? | Sargon Of Akkad

Sargon Of Akkad, also known as Carl Benjamin, is a YouTuber and Political Commentator. Today we're talking hot topics, including Carl's recent removal from Patreon and Jordan Peterson & Sam Harris's subsequent exits from the platform, Gillette's new advert & it's implications for the future of manhood, and the current state of Brexit & Theresa May's government. More Stuff: Sargon Of Akkad on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/user/SargonofAkkad100 Gillette's Advert - https://youtu.be/koPmuEyP3a0 The Eyes To The Right & The Nose To The Left In Parliament - https://twitter.com/ChrisWillx/status/1085908179572215808 - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/modern-wisdom/id1347973549 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0XrOqvxlqQI6bmdYHuIVnr?si=iUpczE97SJqe1kNdYBipnw Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - I want to hear from you!! Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Chris WilliamsonhostCarl Benjaminguest
Jan 21, 201955mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:12

    Patreon ban: what happened and why it shocked creators

    1. CW

      (wind blowing) Mr. Carl Benjamin, also known as Sargon of Akkad, also known as Patreon's number one enemy at the moment. (laughs) How are you today, sir?

    2. CB

      I'm good. I didn't really consider myself Patreon's number one enemy. I don't know why they're doing this, but, um, apparently SubscribeStar has started working for people now. So it's kind of, uh, an issue that's passed us all by, I suppose. Now-

    3. CW

      Yeah. It's-

    4. CB

      ... so-

    5. CW

      It's kind of in and out, in and out pretty fast, right?

    6. CB

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's been strange.

    7. CW

      For the, uh, for the listeners who don't know what's occurred over the last few months, could you give us the- the rundown, the zeitgeist?

    8. CB

      Yeah, um, basically Patreon found me insulting a bunch of Nazis on a live stream, on quite an obscure channel. And they took umbrage to the way that I was insulting them, and they decided to delete my Patreon account without warning, um, which is strange 'cause I mean, the terms of service obviously don't say that they track down things that you do elsewhere on the Internet and use that to judge you. But, uh, apparently, they do. So be warned if you have a Patreon account.

  2. 1:12 – 5:20

    Monetization fragility: YouTube’s cut, alternatives, and fear of losing everything

    1. CW

      So Patreon was your way of assisting your channel, Sargon of Akkad, on YouTube, crowdfunding. It allows fans to get like exclusive content and- and early access to- to certain things and stuff like that. And by being shut down from that, I'm gonna guess that that was a- a- a primary source of income that you were deriving your, from your channel, right?

    2. CB

      Uh, it- it was certainly one of the major ways I was monetizing my channel, yeah.

    3. CW

      Yeah.

    4. CB

      Um, the... YouTube has a join fe- feature that you can turn on, but I'm really hesitant to do it 'cause it's something like 30% of the money that people donate through it are taken by YouTube themselves. Whereas with- with Patreon, it's only 5%.

    5. CW

      Yeah.

    6. CB

      Um, and with SubscribeStar, it's only 5% as well.

    7. CW

      Okay.

    8. CB

      Um, just thir- 30%'s a huge amount in my opinion.

    9. CW

      It is a big amount, yeah. But it's obviously YouTube is starting to see a- a gap in the fact that if you've got (throat clears) companies that have agendas and who are potentially gonna disenfranchise the, uh, the-

    10. CB

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... content creators. So w-

    12. CB

      Well, that- that was, that was the point of Patreon in the first place, that YouTube- YouTube were the ones saying, "We have advertisers, therefore, you can't say certain things or be, you know, quite edgy and push boundaries." You know, there- there are a lot of advertisers who, you know, corporate, you know, sponsors for, you know, and advertisers who don't want you to be too edgy, not that they really care, I think, in my opinion, but they would... And demonetizing certain videos and things like that. And Patreon offered itself as, "Hey, look, you can keep your content going without advertisers, without having to get these corporations involved. We'll facilitate you doing that." And now, they're like, "Oh, actually, but if you say something we don't like and you don't apologize, then, you know, we're..." (laughs) I mean, not that they gave them the opportunity to apologize, but, you know. But the, "If you say something we don't like, we're gonna kick you off." It's just like... Okay.

    13. CW

      So what happens? What happens when you wake up on the morning of whatever day it is and, uh, you find out your Patreon account's gone?

    14. CB

      (puffs) It's- it's not a very nice feeling. I'm gonna be honest. You know, 'cause, I mean, I was, I was relying on that money quite significantly. Um, I s- I mean, it is, it is kind of terrifying knowing that you're living under a Sword of Damocles. You know, like I, every day, I wake up and I check that my YouTube channel is still there.

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. CB

      I'm not joking. I'm, uh, I'm... It sounds terrible, doesn't it? You know, it's like f- every morning, you phone up your boss just to check you have a job to go into.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. CB

      You know, it's like... That's how I feel about it sometimes, and it's- it's- it's my choice obviously. I'm the one who started doing a YouTube channel, but-

    19. CW

      Yeah.

    20. CB

      ... you know, it wasn't like this when I started, you know. It w- it wasn't... I mean, like, Mumki Jones was a- a young comedian who mocks, uh, he mocked Elliot, Elliot Rodger, and he actually ended up doing some real- really good work with it because he went through and read his crazy manifesto and things like this. And he would explain why Elliot Rodger was such a, you know, a lunatic. And he got his entire YouTube presence deleted, um, for being apparently controversial. And it's like, well, you know, come on, the controversial stuff is the stuff that's interesting, isn't it? You know, no one's just watching daytime television on YouTube, are they? They're gonna go somewhere else where the controversial content goes-

    21. CW

      Yeah.

    22. CB

      ... because that'll make that new platform, cough, cough, Bitchute, cough, um, uh, a- a better alternative. I think b- I think Bitchute's got a better model because it- it- it's stored like torrents, so it's across thousands of different computers, um, decentralizing it. And I think... Uh, so they don't have like a, you know, they don't have a giant warehouse full of hard drives, um, to keep everything on. So it's, I think that's the future. It's just YouTube's currently the dominant market share. But any- anyway, sorry.

    23. CW

      Yeah. No. Totally. So you've woken up and you found out that... How many, how many, um, subscribers or, uh, patrons did you have at the time?

    24. CB

      About three and a half thousand.

    25. CW

      That is a very significant number, isn't it?

    26. CB

      Yeah, it's quite a lot, yeah. And so, and I mean, and honestly, it's just, I mean, I just laughed 'cause to- to be honest with you, I'd kind of been expecting something for a while, um, and I think a lot-

    27. CW

      You feel the impending fisting, but you just didn't know whether it was from YouTube or-

    28. CB

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      ... Twitter or Instagram or...

  3. 5:20 – 7:51

    The deplatforming ‘slippery slope’: from Nazis to Alex Jones to mainstream conservatives

    1. CB

      Yeah, basically. Uh, I think a- a bunch of, a bunch of prominent f- uh, free- freedom activist YouTubers have been in the crosshairs for quite some time now. Um, and I mean, obviously, really, it started with the alt-right, um, and I objected to it then. And then it came on Alex Jones, and it was... It's been a, it's been a very slippery slope since then. And the, and it really is the tightening of the sort of noose of censorship.

    2. CW

      Yeah.

    3. CB

      'Cause I mean, you know, like the, you can say, "Okay, we're not gonna ha- platform Nazis." Okay, well, you know, I, that I can't... It's hard to argue that, you know. I mean, I can sit there and make the same argument from their freedom. But if every, you know, if there's this giant consensus to do it, (grunts) you- you- you're yelling into a gale, you know.

    4. CW

      Yeah.

    5. CB

      ... and then it comes to someone like Alex Jones. And Alex Jones, no matter what you think of him, he wasn't a Nazi. You know, he was a radical libertarian conspiracy theorist.

    6. CW

      Yeah.

    7. CB

      And he, he was the one going, "Oh, they're gonna s- they're gonna shut us down," and all this sort of stuff, and then on one day they shut him down-

    8. CW

      (laughs)

    9. CB

      ... completely. And it was s- okay, well that's ... And that, that was enough to get a lot of people paying attention.

    10. CW

      Yeah.

    11. CB

      And then on Patreon, they got rid of me, James Allsup, and Milo Yiannopoulos. Um, James Allsup's a white identitarian, but he's not a Nazi, you know, he's not like calling for violence or anything. Milo is just, like, a conservative, and I- I'm a classical liberal. So it's, you know, the- the fact that they've come ... They've, they've jumped, uh, like, uh, several new steps closer and tighter to the center.

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. CB

      And, uh, I mean, there's- there's no particular reason that Milo should've been kicked off in the first place. And I did actually object to it on the day it happened, but everyone else just ignored it. And then two days later, that was it, my Patreon was gone as well. And that was like, "Jesus."

    14. CW

      Shit. 'Cause Milo's had a really bad run recently, be it being deplatformed. Like, what's terrifying, and you- you alluded to it earlier on, is the fact that your connection to your audience and people who genuinely care about your content, and essentially your f- your friends, for- for want of a better term, if you were to try and like create it in the real world-

    15. CB

      Mm-hmm.

    16. CW

      ... they are at the behest of a man with a button, and the man- the man can press the button. And when the button gets pressed, your friendship with ... Uh, y- what are you up to now, nearly a million subs on YouTube? You're- you're- you're-

    17. CB

      Yeah, yeah. Coming- coming on 900,000, something like that.

    18. CW

      So your friendship with or connection with a million people is gone.

    19. CB

      Yeah.

    20. CW

      One button.

    21. CB

      And it- it's not just, it's not just the- the voice that I have that they're silencing. It's the ability for anyone who wanted to hear what I had to say, they've been deafened in the process.

    22. CW

      Yes.

  4. 7:51 – 14:50

    Silicon Valley as an ‘ethical state’: concentrated power and shared censorship norms

    1. CB

      Um, and the- the whole- the whole thing's really quite terrifying because almost all of the internet is run from Silicon Valley. And so I- I did a video on Starship Troopers a while ago, and I had to read a lot about fascism because the accusation on the book and the movie is that it's a fascist book and movie.

    2. CW

      Okay.

    3. CB

      It's not. Um, but I- I did end up having to read a lot about fascism to be able to make the distinction because, I mean, y- you know, if you don't know much about either subject, it's easy to just say, "Guns, therefore fascism." But that's not how it works.

    4. CW

      Okay.

    5. CB

      Um, but one of the things that, um, fascist philosopher Giovanni Gentile said about the fascist state that I found really interesting is the idea of it being an ethical state. Um, as in, it has a plan, you know? It- it has a goal. And so everything the state's doing in a liberal society like we- we live in, e- everything the state should be t- working towards is the protection of the rights and freedoms of the citizen. The state doesn't tell you how to be a citizen, it's there to safeguard your independence as an individual in the world. Um, but the fascist state and the sort of socialist state is not really like that. They- they have a goal, a moral teleology, and they- they know how ... Th- they've, you know, they've got manifestos. They have a series of steps on how they're gonna implement these. 'Cause I was just thinking, what the f- what on earth would a liberal manifesto even look like?

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. CB

      You know? I don't have a grand-

    8. CW

      We want everything all the time from everyone. (laughs)

    9. CB

      ... You need a grand plan for the world to have a manifesto. And so one- one of the- one of the ways that Giovanni Gentile described this, I thought it was really fascinating. It was like the- the fascist state is wide awake and has a will of its own. And you can definitely say that about Silicon Valley, it's wide awake and has a will of its own. Because you can listen to Tim Cook saying that it's a sin not to censor, and then you can listen to all the other CEO- CEOs ... And, I mean, Jack Conte just openly said, "We all talk to each other, we're very open and we share." And it's like, okay, and there's- there's a definitive kind of culture that's come out of the sort of Bay Area in which Silicon Valley's set, and it's got designs on remodeling the world. And I don't agree with those designs. Uh, I think they're quite authoritarian. And I- I mean, it's honestly, they're trying to create the Demolition Man future, which is a video I'm gonna do fairly soon actually, because it's so scary how unbelievably similar-

    10. CW

      Yeah.

    11. CB

      ... that they want it. But, um, yeah, sorry, that's ... So yeah, Silicon Valley, it scares me because it kind of a- acts like a fascist organization.

    12. CW

      Yeah. I- I think, uh, it is- it is very worrying that you have such a high amount of power concentrated in such a small place. Like, it's the equivalent of a market monopoly.

    13. CB

      Oh, absolutely. It's cut to-

    14. CW

      If it was anti-competitive, if there was-

    15. CB

      Yeah.

    16. CW

      ... anti-competitiveness, uh, legislation with regards to having to distribute the power more evenly geographically-

    17. CB

      Yeah.

    18. CW

      Because you're totally right, like you- you end up with an echo chamber. Like we all, uh, everyone that's listening I'm sure will have heard about how echo chambers exist online. But if you lump this many businesses together and this many CEOs in the same Telegram and WhatsApp group chats, like what- what do you think happens then?

    19. CB

      Yeah. And- and, uh, uh, they ... It's normal for that to happen. You know, you form a community with the people in the local area around you, you know, and people of similar status to you. It's natural that that happens. It's not like it's an evil conspiracy. But, I mean, when Tim Cook was standing at- at the recent Apple thing where he w- the- the viral clip from going around, he looks like a preacher. He- he very much looked-

    20. CW

      What was he- what was he saying? For the- for the listeners ...

    21. CB

      ... not to censor. And it's like, well, Jesus Christ, man. You know, if we're gonna get into the realm of what's sinful and not, then (laughs) I guess you're gonna have to debate with the Pope or something, aren't you? Because-

    22. CW

      It goes... It sounds so far away from the vision that most people think of when they think about Silicon Valley startup, fuck the system-

    23. CB

      Yeah.

    24. CW

      ... guys with long hair and dreads just doing what they want, and it's free love, man. And you know, like is this-

    25. CB

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      ... the, is this the vision for Silicon Valley that was started, like, you know, 40 years ago? Is that really where it, where it was supposed to go?

    27. CB

      It's, it's changed a lot, hasn't it? 'Cause I mean, if you, you look at like PayPalers, Peter Thiel, Thiel, however you pronounce it. You know-

    28. CW

      The PayPal mafia man, yeah.

    29. CB

      Yeah, exactly. Elon Musk and a bunch of others. And they're not, they're not like far-left lunatics at all, you know? I, I mean, they're quite libertarian in many ways. It seems that the far left have just moved in slowly but surely and, you know, crept. You know, it's like a, I don't wanna say a plague, but. (laughs)

    30. CW

      (laughs)

  5. 14:50 – 20:30

    The internet panopticon: permanent records, retroactive punishment, and no redemption

    1. CW

      I mean, where, where does the, where does the state finish?

    2. CB

      It is, it is getting quite Orwellian, I, I really do think.

    3. CW

      (laughs)

    4. CB

      And... No, it's, it's... I mean, like, I never really thought we'd end up living in some kind of like omnipotent panopticon where you, you can...

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. CB

      No, no, 'cause like anything you've said at any point in time or space can now be found by internet sleuths if it's on the internet, if it's in social media, if it's, you know-

    7. CW

      Totally correct.

    8. CB

      I mean, like, look at Cenk Uygur's old, um, like when he was in college or whatever, his old blog from the '90s that he had up. I mean, it was really rude, you know. It was, it was like young men's rude talk, you know.

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. CB

      And, you know, and, uh, obviously he's not saying this to women's faces. So it's not like he's going out and, and saying, "Hey lady, you've got a nice rack. Uh, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Uh, he did kinda sound like Elliot Rodger while he was doing it.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. CB

      Uh, but that was all dug up, like 20 years later after he'd disavowed it like 10 years previously-

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. CB

      ... and said, "Look, this is something I did, and I'm not proud of it," and... But now it doesn't matter. I mean, that guy kicked off of the board of the Justice Democrats, a political organization in the US. Uh, and him and Karl Kolinski. And so it's just like... it's merciless.

    15. CW

      Yeah.

    16. CB

      Absolutely merciless. And this ex- it's currently happening to Tulsi Gabbard right now. Like, she was raised in a, a right-wing Christian anti-gay household, like actively. Her dad was an activist against gay rights. Um, and she grew up naturally with a bunch of those opinions.

    17. CW

      Yep.

    18. CB

      As you would expect.

    19. CW

      Yep.

    20. CB

      And sh- you know, like, she, what, she go into Congress six years ago, but before then, she had already changed her mind on the idea of gay rights, which is why she joined the Democrats. And now she's being just grilled for it. Like, I'm seeing that... She's such a mild person, and I'm just seeing the worst kind of backlash from the very far-left activists who are now like, "Well, if you were once ever against gay rights, then y- you know, you are forever, and we're just gonna treat you like you still hold these opinions."

    21. CW

      Yeah, it's, it's such a, um-

    22. CB

      Awful.

    23. CW

      Yeah, and it's the... The problem is because everybody wants to have this absolutist approach to people are either bad or good and the gray area is too gray and any seceding of ground is you c- allowing them to, uh, proliferate these really terrible ideas. But Sam Harris has a great concept where he talks about, um, a, the son of a terrorist over in Iraq, and he says this son's two years old, so let's imagine the free will that he's got. He's two years old, and he's maybe, um, stamping on insects or something like that. And you think, "Well, uh, i- is it his fault?" And you go, "Well, no, no, like, look at, look at the people he's around. He's got this aggression. It's a really aggressive culture and blah, blah, blah." Okay, roll it forward. He's seven years old, and he's at school, and he's bullying people. You go, "Well, is it his fault now?" And you go, "Well, no, no, it's, it's still probably not his fault. He's got this crazy honor culture, and he's very, very highly held within society." Okay, now continue to roll the tape forward. Now he's 15. Yeah. Now he's 20. Now he's a warlord at 30. Like, wh- where-

    24. CB

      Yeah. (laughs)

    25. CW

      ... where do we stop? Or where do we draw the line about understanding people's backgrounds?

    26. CB

      Yeah, no, that, that's a really, really good point and a really good way of laying it out too. Um, at what point do we hold people accountable for the things they believe, and can we allow them to change if they want to? And it seems like the far left at this point-

    27. CW

      I mean, surely, surely not before they can vote.... like-

    28. CB

      Oh, yeah. (laughs)

    29. CW

      ... you know what I mean? If you're not allowed to vote, you basically-

    30. CB

      Yeah.

  6. 20:30 – 21:12

    Creator backlash and the Patreon exodus: Harris, Rubin, Peterson—and building new platforms

    1. CW

      So am I, am I right in thinking that Sam Harris has closed his Patreon account now?

    2. CB

      He has, yeah.

    3. CW

      And-

    4. CB

      So has George Peterson and Dave Rubin.

    5. CW

      George Peterson.

    6. CB

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      So how many, how many patrons do you think are combined between them?

    8. CB

      Oh, I wouldn't even know. It must be a fair number, though.

    9. CW

      50,000, probably, maybe? Something like that?

    10. CB

      I, I honestly don't know. You see, it's gotta be a lot, though.

    11. CW

      Yeah.

    12. CB

      It's gotta be a lot.

    13. CW

      And, and they are now moving across to...

    14. CB

      Uh, they- they're actually setting up their own platform.

    15. CW

      Okay.

    16. CB

      Um, but I don't know what it's called yet.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. CB

      Um, but I'm, I'm obviously gonna be looking forward to using it. But I'm, I'm also using SubscribeStar, which is another platform that was existing before any of this happened, uh, you know, sort of... I think it opened in May last year.

    19. CW

      Yep.

  7. 21:12 – 23:33

    Payments censorship and ‘cartel’ behavior: PayPal vs SubscribeStar

    1. CB

      And, um, and speaking to the cartel nature of Silicon Valley, in fact, um, the, the woman who was overseeing the deplatforming of my Patreon account had worked at PayPal for eight years. And, uh, and then she was put in charge of Patreon's trust and safety team. And then, the day or the, the day after, um, I and a bunch of other YouTube content creators went to SubscribeStar, which is a- there were already content creators on there-

    2. CW

      Yep.

    3. CB

      ... obviously, um, and they'd been operating quite happily for about six months. Um, but we went over there, and suddenly PayPal and all of the other sort of, um, Silicon Valley processing, uh, firms decided to pull their services from PayP- uh, from, from SubscribeStar-

    4. CW

      Oh.

    5. CB

      ... as if SubscribeStar had done something wrong, or as if we were being censored by Silicon Valley itself, or something like that. It... This is why I, I really am certain that it's a cartel.

    6. CW

      It's so juvenile, isn't it?

    7. CB

      It's terrible, yeah. I mean, if Patreon don't want me on, okay, but what's that got to do with SubscribeStar? I mean, like, I still have a PayPal account, (laughs) you know?

    8. CW

      (laughs) Yeah, still buying shit on eBay and-

    9. CB

      Yeah. I haven't been deplatformed from PayPal, so why, when I or, or a bunch of us go to another platform, did PayPal pull out of that platform? It's like, "Bitch, you still give me money." (laughs) You know? Like, "You do that, so why are you..." So I can only see it as being them protecting the Patreon from the competition. 'Cause obviously SubscribeStar is not based in Silicon Valley.

    10. CW

      Yep.

    11. CB

      So.

    12. CW

      So has that been reversed now?

    13. CB

      What do you mean? Sorry.

    14. CW

      The, uh, PayPal not accepting payments through SubscribeStar?

    15. CB

      No, I, I believe SubscribeStar have figured out a way to get around it by using some other processor-

    16. CW

      Okay.

    17. CB

      ... probably outside of the US, to be honest.

    18. CW

      Isn't that, isn't that bizarre that bringing across some of the biggest, uh, Patreon or the biggest sort of crowdfunded, uh, content creators on the internet was actually one of the worst things probably operationally for about 24 hours that could've happened (laughs) to SubscribeStar?

    19. CB

      Well, yeah, I mean, I- the thing is, I don't think anyone really expected PayPal to say, "Right, we're not gonna do business with you anymore."

    20. CW

      Yeah.

    21. CB

      Because none of the people who Patreon had done business with had been a problem, you know?

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. CB

      I mean, we'd all, you know... we'd all been on Patreon for years, and Patreon had no problem. And suddenly, they're like, "Oh, that's not politically correct enough, we get it. We've got an excuse to get rid of you, and we're not gonna let you go to another platform, because we're gonna get PayPal to..." Uh, it's very, very strange.

  8. 23:33 – 26:01

    Gillette ad controversy: ‘toxic masculinity’ narrative and moral messaging

    1. CW

      Crazy, crazy juvenile. So I want, I wanna move on to the most current topic in the world at hand, which is the (laughs) this new Gillette advert, which I'm gonna guess that you will have seen.

    2. CB

      Yes. Yes, I have.

    3. CW

      Have you seen the British version of it?

    4. CB

      No, I haven't.

    5. CW

      Aw, man. I will make sure, for those who are-

    6. CB

      Yeah, send that across to me.

    7. CW

      ... for those, for those who are watching, and I will send it across to you. But it's the same, but the- the... This is the funniest thing about the whole, uh, everything to do with this advert, that the British version is narrated by a Scottish guy.

    8. CB

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      And you're like, the Scottish, the Scottish are the most alpha males. Like-

    10. CB

      I don't know, man. Scotland seems cucked to me.

    11. CW

      Does it?

    12. CB

      Oh, unbelievably so. Scotland is unbelievably progressive. It's really bad.

    13. CW

      It's their time to shine.

    14. CB

      Like, I... And I, I, I, I like the idea of the Scots being a bunch of rowdy, rowdy northern lads, you know? I like the-

    15. CW

      Yeah.

    16. CB

      ... idea of them-... you know, being, being Scottish, that's how, that's the, how I kind of constructed Scot- like, exactly the same as you did. But like, man, they, they, they... For example, the Scottish government was putting out a bunch of, uh, on b- bus stop adverts just saying, "Dear transphobes, we are afraid of your transphobia. Dear racists, we hate your racism."

    17. CW

      Oh, my God.

    18. CB

      Stuff like this. And it's like, yeah. So the... I mean, and this is, this goes back to what I mean about the ethical state, you know? The state has a goal above just being the protector of your rights and freedoms. Now they're like, "Look, you're not anti-racist enough. You're transphobic. You need to change." And I don't think it should be up to the government to try and decide your opinions for you. I just don't. I think that's just a moral wrong. And you're giving the state an ethical dimension that effectively puts you in the same camp as Mussolini. So, you should probably stop that, Scottish government, 'cause it's kinda scary, you know?

    19. CW

      (laughs)

    20. CB

      It's not for you to decide what's right and wrong, you fucking lunatics.

    21. CW

      Yep. Good point. So, for the viewers who haven't seen this Gillette advert, wh- can you give me the Sargon of Akkad CliffsNotes on what you think it is? Or how, how would you, how would you describe it to someone that hasn't seen it?

    22. CB

      It's just feminist propaganda. It's, it's just 101. I mean, it's so, it's so basic. I mean, it starts off with the Me Too movement and toxic masculinity, so you know you're dealing with a feminist. I mean the, the author, the, the director, sorry, was, um-

    23. CW

      Kim Gehrig.

    24. CB

      Kim, Kim Gehrig, yeah. She's a, a famous feminist director. She's, who's directed many controversial, um, sort of short clips like this, uh, that have caused a stir because she seems to take a one-sided feminist narrative on the idea that women are being oppressed by men and men have to change.

    25. CW

      Yeah.

  9. 26:01 – 29:25

    Play fighting vs predation: why the ad’s logic ‘doesn’t map’ to real behavior

    1. CB

      And, I mean, the way she was c- uh, like the whole thing conflates like boys roughhousing as children with Harvey Weinstein's predatory behavior in Hollywood. And then they have like, uh, Terry Crews, who again, was assaulted by a Hollywood executive, you know, some powerful Hollywood exec. And it's all tied back as if it was because Harvey Weinstein play fought with his brother when he was a kid. And it's like, that's not the reason.

    2. CW

      Yeah.

    3. CB

      You know, the reason is because he's a disgusting, ugly, repulsive pervert with absolutely no moral standards, who doesn't represent anyone but Harvey Weinstein and the goons around him that he protects. You know, that's not reflective of most men. And it's definitely inappropriate to say that it is.

    4. CW

      Yeah. It's catastrophic thinking at its absolute worst, isn't it?

    5. CB

      (laughs) It's, well, it's bigoted thinking at its absolute worst. I mean, you know, we, we don't just sit there and go, "Black people, look at these crime rates. You're all responsible."

    6. CW

      Yeah.

    7. CB

      You know, that would be ridiculously racist. So when they go, "Men, look at what Harvey Weinstein's done. You're responsible," it's the same logic. So, yeah, I don't know, they-

    8. CW

      I don't know. So, th- during the advert, you, the bit that really, really got me was this... I think they're at a barbecue. So there's a bunch of guys at a barbecue doing man things, drinking beer and flipping beef and stuff like that. And there's a couple of kids play fighting, two boys play fighting, and the scene is allowed to continue then it cuts away and then it comes back. And the suggestion is that men should step in to stop other men, or stop other males, i.e. boys-

    9. CB

      (laughs)

    10. CW

      ... from play fighting. And you're right, the, the implication is that by allowing boys to play fight you are fostering this tyrannical-

    11. CB

      (laughs)

    12. CW

      ... misogynist-in-waiting ... which is... (laughs)

    13. CB

      Yeah. But it sounds ridiculous when you say it, doesn't it? Yeah.

    14. CW

      (laughs)

    15. CB

      But to anyone who either was a young boy or who, who knows young boys, you know, who has children or something like that, it just sounds absurd.

    16. CW

      Yeah.

    17. CB

      You know, 'cause young, young boys play fighting is... Essentially, I, I looked up a bunch, uh, I, I went and researched this to, to do the, uh, the video I did on it. Um, basically young boys play fighting is completely normal according to like leading psychologists.

    18. CW

      Oh, yeah?

    19. CB

      You know? And, and I mean, you know, every, every man knows this, 'cause when they were a kid they p- had play fights with their friends too, you know? It's, it's just like the way men socialize among themselves and establish hierarchies, you know? And like the, one of the, one of the studies that I was re- uh, looking at, um, was, uh, 85% of, of boys, teenage boys could tell when a play fight was going on, you know, like 85% of the time. Um, they could tell that the fight was go- th- there was a play fight because, you know, they're having fun. But... And then this was mostly like 70% adults as well, like men-

    20. CW

      Yep. Yeah.

    21. CB

      ... and women who had grown up with a brother. But women who had grown up without a brother always thought that the fights were serious. And so it's like, right, okay, there really is a distinction-

    22. CW

      Ah, yes.

    23. CB

      ... here about male and female thinking, you know, and w- women who are not used to what young men are like don't recognize the behavior for what it is.

    24. CW

      Mm.

    25. CB

      But the thing is, it's the same with like animals. You know, you see, you know, puppies fighting and stuff like this, you know, it's just-

    26. CW

      Oh, shit, shit, shit. Yeah. (laughs)

    27. CB

      Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's just natural, you know? And so they, and they, they panic about this excessively. And so, they kind of, it, it kind of is a g- a small group of mostly women who don't really understand men and are kind of afraid of them. That's how I view mod- modern feminism these days. That's honestly how I view it because it's just like-

  10. 29:25 – 32:57

    Backlash mechanics: dislikes, deleted comments, and accusations around the director

    1. CW

      The backlash, the backlash on this Gillette advert's been insane. The, um-

    2. CB

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... the, the YouTube, uh, up-rate and down-rate was ten to one on dislike. And then-

    4. CB

      Really?

    5. CW

      Yeah, it was ten to one. And then there was... The views didn't increase by a tremendous amount. Uh, I was watching this on a, uh, on YouTube yesterday. Views didn't increase by a tremendous amount, and the dislike to like has been brought back down to around about five to one.

    6. CB

      Oh, really? It was two, it was two to one when I saw it the other day.

    7. CW

      Well, and, and it may have even gone further. But it-

    8. CB

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... when it very, very first went out, and that may be due to just the first adopters are the people who have taken the most offense.

    10. CB

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      So the, you know, that it could be, that it could be realistic. But there's a lot of accusations of a bit of unfair play going around.

    12. CB

      I- I've heard, I've seen many people saying, "My dislike has been removed," and things like this. (laughs)

    13. CW

      Comments are... A lot of comments are being deleted and, and pinned-

    14. CB

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... pinned ones are, are, are changing. Have you also seen... Now, I don't know, I don't know how much truth's behind this, but it's on a, there's a lot of websites that are reporting it. Have you seen that Kim Gehrig has actually been accused of sexual abuse by two men and five women?

    16. CB

      No, I did not know that. (laughs) The irony. (laughs)

    17. CW

      (laughs)

    18. CB

      I mean, I've, I guess we've gotta listen and believe, haven't we?

    19. CW

      Yeah. Well, I mean-

    20. CB

      You know, believe the victims.

    21. CW

      Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely. So I, uh, uh, I, I'm struggling to find it on anyone who is super reputable yet. I think-

    22. CB

      Right.

    23. CW

      ... it's probably dangerous to, um... Where are we?

    24. CB

      I, I will wait for confirmation of that.

    25. CW

      Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

    26. CB

      Yes.

    27. CW

      Gillette misandrist ... Where is it? Just Gillette misandrist ad was directed by an accused pedophile, (gasps) Ms. Kim Gherig.

    28. CB

      (laughs) Jesus.

    29. CW

      One of her victims committed suicide. Oh, my days.

    30. CB

      Jesus.

  11. 32:57 – 42:12

    How to guide young men without authoritarianism: bottom-up norms and ‘know the limit’

    1. CW

      Well, uh, and, and the thing is, uh, although I can't cite it and it's not my field, I've heard him across the content I've consumed of him talking about just how important this is and how it helps young boys to be able to learn the limits of their own strength and-

    2. CB

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... you, the proprioception in terms of how your body moves and how other people's bodies move. And it's-

    4. CB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      ... the games iterated across time analogy he uses talking about rats. And he says if one rat play fights with another rat and then it loses, it rolls over, and then the rat allows it to come back and play again.

    6. CB

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      So-

    8. CB

      Yeah, and, and you've gotta let them win 30% of the time roughly-

    9. CW

      Exactly.

    10. CB

      ... to keep them en- engaged in the game. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I, uh, I watch a lot of Jordan Peterson too. Um ...

    11. CW

      Well, there we go.

    12. CB

      Yeah, yeah. No, but I, I think that, I think that there's some definite s- definitely some truth to it, and I, I think it's very much about socializing boys. 'Cause I, I think that young men are very powerful. This is what, this is what I think, uh, I don't say women, but a certain kind of excessively concerned sort of moral busybody woman is usually like. And I can, I can think of many examples of this kind of woman. They're not badly intention- intentioned or anything, um, but I just don't think they understand. And I think that young men are, men, men are strong. They're, they're a powerful force in the world when they want to be. And this is usually why societies had quite strict rules for young men, you know? I mean, like, if you go back to the Middle Ages, you know, young men would have been taught how to use a spear and a shield and a bow and things like this, and they would have had to, you know, join, you know, become part of the local sort of militia or something like that, or-

    13. CW

      Yeah.

    14. CB

      ... gone off to fight for the king or whatever.

    15. CW

      Conscription of some sort, yeah.

    16. CB

      Uh, there may well have been some kind of c- conscription. Exactly. And, and it, it's because it's understood that young men have fighting instincts, you know? Not all of them all the time, but there is definitely a part to young men that is naturally designed to fight. And, I mean, I, I watched a documentary, I think it was, was it Michael Posluso a few years ago, where he effectively went and, like ... Some, uh, some kind of underground gang in London, it was like boxing gang, you know, bare knuckle boxing gang.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. CB

      And it, it was about the pleasure of fighting, 'cause these, these men who did this, they, they didn't take drugs or drink. Their drug was fighting itself, the adrenaline kick of it. And y- y- I think that, like, that's what Call of Duty is tapping into, you know, that kind of video game. It's that kind of adrenaline high from conflict and combat. The-

    19. CW

      Catharsis, almost.

    20. CB

      No, no, not, no, no, no, not quite that. Like, not that they've ... Like ... (sighs) Like, the g- the, the fact that physical competition is also a game, you know? It might become like a deadly, you know, game in, in ... But it, there, there are set rules, uh, and they, the effect- I mean, in a war, they're the rules of who can kill who first, you know? They, they don't have to be rules that are conceptual. They might just be physical rules. But there are set rules, and there's an objective, and both of you are going for it. And it's understood that you're on the same terms. Like, the, for the reason it's not murder for, to kill a soldier in a battle, you know, it's understood that you're both there to fight. And I think, I think there's a part of the male psyche that is ... enjoys that, you know? And, uh, uh, for some men. I mean, obviously you get the sort of weaker men who don't like these kind of physical competitions. And I think it's that kind of un- and it, I guess you'd call it primal if you want, um, but that kind of urge that the, you know, the, the shooter genre is tapping into with kids these days, you know. And I th- I think it's wrong to try and deny that aspect of, of human nature. But obviously the feminists who've got absolutely no empathy for men whatsoever and don't even try couldn't possibly understand it. And so all they see is, "Oh, there is a defective woman," as Christine Hoff Sommers puts it, and I think she's right on that. I think they do.

    21. CW

      Yeah. I, I think what's interesting is the fact that the scalable and much more effective strategy-... for controlling men or i.e. making man's behavior more holistic and more beneficial to society as a whole, would be to remodel it and have, uh, have it almost brought on by desire, as opposed to, uh, entrenched and locked in by rules.

    22. CB

      Hmm.

    23. CW

      So if you were, if you were able to have it be desirable for all men to call out every man that was a rapist immediately, or if you had it as a- a rule that play fights were something that was taken pride in but was done with- with honor and with a- a sense of decorum, et cetera, et cetera. That's much more scalable, and it's much more difficult-

    24. CB

      Hmm.

    25. CW

      ... because it's enforced by the group.

    26. CB

      Hmm.

    27. CW

      As opposed to choosing a top-down approach. That's a bottom-up approach, right? Which is manifested-

    28. CB

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      ... naturally by the culture. As opposed to a top-down approach, which is this, uh, it's almost like trying to litigate men's-

    30. CB

      Well, it's authoritarian, isn't it?

  12. 42:12 – 45:11

    Brexit snapshot: May’s weak position, no-deal logic, and EU incentives to punish

    1. CW

      No, you're not allowed, you're not allowed to have your own choice. I don't know, I- it's- it's, uh, it- it really is an interesting one. So, the, uh, the, I guess, the, this speaks volumes to just how pop culturally we are at the moment, but the fact that Brexit sits below the Gillette advert on my list of things that I wanted to talk about today. (laughs) But, um, can you give us the, uh, uh, Carl Benjamin rundown of- of what's happened over the last week?

    2. CB

      Um, okay. Well, the, the, uh, Theresa May is a massively unpopular prime minister, but the Conservatives are terribly afraid about losing their control over the government, and so they have to back her. But what she's, what Theresa May is proposing is so, uh, outside of the bounds of reason to the hardline Eurosceptics of the Tory party that her position is tremendously weak. Um, but she does keep managing to survive votes of no confidence, apparently.

    3. CW

      Unbelievably so.

    4. CB

      Yeah. I, but it's, it's only because the Tories know that if she goes, they all go, 'cause they've pinned their colors to her mast.

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. CB

      It's like, "Well that was a mistake, wasn't it?" You know? It's, it's really bad. And they're convinced that they have to have a deal, and I mean, you can... You know, the head of the World Trade Organization said, "Well, yeah, okay. If you, if you leave on World Trade Organization terms, there will be a, a small period of dir- disruption, but it won't be the end of the world, and then we'll be able to carry on as an independent country." I would rather take the small period of disruption even if it means I have to pay more for this or, you know, a flight of mine is delayed or something like that. You know, I'll, I will accept it for the sovereignty of my country, and we'll figure it out. You know, that's the thing. I have faith in the British people to figure these things out, and our political class just has absolutely no faith in this regard. They're, they're c- they're concerned about like, "Yeah, but what about GDP?" And it's like, "Man, I don't really care." You know? I, I care that we get out of the European Union. I don't want them controlling us. I don't wanna be under the jurisdiction of their courts. I don't want their foreign policy to be our foreign policy. I just want us to have left, you know? No more laws, no more interference, just nothing. And I'm prepared f- (laughs) I'm prepared to watch GDP shrink a bit for that. I'm sorry. It's, I, uh, this is a point of principle in my po- position and in my opinion now, and the Conservatives don't think that that can be done. They think that, they think that they can push through a deal that the European Union will agree to, but the deal is awful as... I mean, you, you know, you can watch any of the Eurosceptics just excoriate it all the time as being effectively a, a s- a, a submission to Brussels, because it is. I mean, it puts all of the power in their hands, and we have absolutely none. And it would... If, it would be better to remain than take that deal, but we have voted to leave, so we must leave. So, we have to go on no deal because the European Union have said they're not gonna renegotiate at all because they're being utterly intransigent about this in order to try and punish the Conservatives, presumably, and the rest of the country. Um-

    7. CW

      Rightly so, rightly so on their side. Like if you've, if, if-

    8. CB

      Well, understandably. Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... you've made your fucking bed, like it's-

  13. 45:11 – 50:16

    Ripple effects: EU budget gaps, Nexit ‘fester,’ and Ireland’s trade exposure

    1. CB

      Yeah, under- understandable. But the thing is, I think this is gonna come back and bite them in the ass because I think that what they expected is they could beat Theresa down into, into proposing almost anything, and they did, and she has, but she can't get that through Parliament. So, they're not gonna get the deal they want, and there are gonna be consequences to Britain leaving on a WTO Brexit, and these consequences will be bad. There, there will be some negative consequences for us, but there are definitely gonna be negative consequences for them. For example, um, was it the German Finance Minister the other day was raising the aw- alarm about the fact that if we didn't pay our 39 billion, that's French, German, Italian, and Dutch taxes that go up. Uh, how do you think the French are gonna take that? (laughs) Probably, probably not brilliantly considering they're still rioting. I'm sure the Germans aren't gonna be thrilled. I doubt the, I doubt Salvini will even open the, open the email.

    2. CW

      Yeah. Okay.

    3. CB

      You know, "Salvini, you've gotta raise the taxes." "Yeah, bollocks do I."

    4. CW

      Whatever.

    5. CB

      You know?

    6. CW

      Yeah.

    7. CB

      And then the Nexit, the, the Netherlands exit movement will grow incrementally stronger. So-

    8. CW

      Do you think that's coming as well?

    9. CB

      No, not, not in the, not in the short term, but, um, I think it'll fester. Like, the same with Brexit, in fact. I think it'll fester for a number of years until people demand a referendum, you know? Um, assuming the EU even lasts that long. And then, then you've got the problem with Ireland, right? So the, uh, the Irish economy is deeply tied to the British economy, especially the food economy, and we're talking like hundreds of millions of tons of beef and cheese every year. And if we don't carry on trading with the EU in the way that we did before, if the EU says, "We're not gonna, we're not gonna, you know, we're gonna put tariffs on you," et cetera, et cetera, then they're worried that we're gonna start getting beef and cheese from South America which will actually make our beef and cheese cheaper than it was, and it'll destroy Ireland's economy because the money that they would've taken from us is actually now gonna go to Argentina and Brazil and places like that. And it's like, "Well, there we go." You know?

    10. CW

      It is an interconnected house of cards, isn't it?

    11. CB

      Yeah. I mean, one, one of the, one of the things about this, the, Ireland is, i- it's already something that it's gonna have to start requesting more money from the European Union in the event of any Brexit, which is gonna turn Ireland from a net contributor into a net beneficiary of the European Union. So the, the EU, again, loses its, its lose, you know, it's immediately losing two of its net contributors, Britain being the, the second-biggest one and Ireland being a net contributor, but obviously not a very big one. Um, but that's, that's all bad news for the French and German taxpayer, really. So, yeah, good luck.

    12. CW

      Can you think, can you th- (laughs) can you think about what it's like to wake up as Theresa May every morning for the last week?

    13. CB

      (laughs) I'd rather not. (laughs)

    14. CW

      Oh, okay. Okay, yeah. Well, yeah. No, given.

    15. CB

      But she's done this to herself though. It's like this is the most annoying thing about Theresa May I find, is that it's completely within her power to go, "You know what? Everyone's wrong. I'm gonna make a decision, and it's, it's just gonna be this way." Like, "We... I, we're gonna go with no deal." She can y- you know, just say, "No deal, we're gonna start, um, and we can unilaterally do all of the things that we would offer the European Union." So we can say, "Look, we're not gonna do anything bad to, you know, obviously we're gonna give European citizens like, you know, rights of, uh, uh, rights to stay, rights to work, et cetera. We'll give them citizenship. Hell with that, I don't care." You know? Um, "We won't impose a, uh, border along the Irish, um, along Northern Ireland-Irish border. We're not gonna put any tariffs on your trade. We're gonna carry on as normal, and then the ball's in your court, you know? What are you gonna do?" And then she's the one who's calling the shots.

    16. CW

      Yeah. Yeah.

    17. CB

      So she doesn't do it because she's weak, you know?

    18. CW

      Yeah. I mean, the fact that, uh, the fact that you have a-... a, a parliament, uh, a party behind her which doesn't support her-

    19. CB

      No. They've told Parliament-

    20. CW

      ... but which also doesn't have, also doesn't have the balls to be able to get rid of her-

    21. CB

      Yeah.

    22. CW

      ... is such a ... it's the most British situation. Do you not think?

    23. CB

      Yeah, I do. (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's-

    24. CW

      It's so quintessentially British.

    25. CB

      It really is. Uh, you know, like, like, okay, one, one of the things that I've, I've always got to remember about the Remain campaigners is they're not cowards, they're just wrong, you know? They'll, they'll go out there and they will march. You know, they'll, they'll go out there in large numbers for their cause. And they'll stand there and they'll ... you know, I w- I interviewed a few the other day outside of Parliament, standing there in the cold and the rain and, and, you know, they're standing there waving their ... They, they truly believe in what they're saying, you know? It's not that they're ... It's, it's not that, (laughs) you know, that they're, they're weak people individually or necessarily. It's that they are just confused, in my opinion. But the Parliament, it, it really is kind of like a, you know, a parliament of lambs leading a country of lions, you know?

    26. CW

      Yeah.

    27. CB

      Because at this point, like, I think a lot of people, even if they voted Remain, they're just like, "Look, just get on with it," you know?

    28. CW

      Yeah.

    29. CB

      You know, we're, we're, you know, stiff upper lip, we can take it. We'll just, we'll just go with them. We'll j-

    30. CW

      Whatever it is, let's just have it happen.

  14. 50:16 – 55:26

    British political theatre: archaic Parliament rituals, heritage, and ‘double down’ pride

    1. CW

      Yeah, totally. I, I don't know whether you saw when the actual announcement happened. I don't watch a lot of the discourse that occurs in Parliament. But I mean, like, to just see how archaic and like-

    2. CB

      (laughs)

    3. CW

      ... old and worldy it is, it's just this is why everyone thinks that British people drink shitloads of tea and constantly wear things that have got wood on them and-

    4. CB

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      ... like, they've all got bad teeth.

    6. CB

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      Like, this is, this is why. And the guys, they're, they're bowing and then they walk forward and then they bow again.

    8. CB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      And then this lady reads about "The nose to the left and the eyes to the right." And then they give it to the Speaker and he starts shouting about the nose and the eyes. And you're like, "This is going out on the fucking world stage, guys."

    10. CB

      (laughs)

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. CB

      I, I, I kinda like that, though, you know? I-

    13. CW

      Well, I like it, but it's ... I like it because it's-

    14. CB

      It is embarrassing though, I gotta say. (laughs)

    15. CW

      Yeah. I, I, I like it because it's got this sense of heritage which I appreciate-

    16. CB

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      ... in a more nuanced way because I'm British and because it reminds me of, you know, 1945 and, and, and Yorkshire Tea and shit like that. But like, fuck me, imagine like the-

    18. CB

      (laughs)

    19. CW

      (laughs) Just anyone, any. Imagine the Italians. Imagine the Italians watching this. Like, or-

    20. CB

      Well-

    21. CW

      ... or the Americans watching this, and they're like-

    22. CB

      You know what? I, I think, I think that a large number of them view it as, um, distinguished.

    23. CW

      Really?

    24. CB

      And-

    25. CW

      Are they that ... Are they r- (laughs)

    26. CB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    27. CW

      Okay.

    28. CB

      And, and the thing is, it is, in many ways. Like, I, I, I have problems with John Bercow and the things that he does, but I have absolutely no problem with the way he rules Parliament. I think it's hilarious.

    29. CW

      It is hilarious.

    30. CB

      I love, I love his put-downs. He's like, "We all get along without you if you can't control yourself!"

Episode duration: 55:27

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