What Is Strength? | Brett Jones | Modern Wisdom Podcast 112

Brett Jones 0:00 If I were to give one piece of advice ... Well, we'll make it two. Number one is patience. True power means you're patient enough to allow that power to come to fruition. So it means at the top of my swing, and if it's, if it is the Games and you are doing the overhead swing-

Chris Williamson 0:20 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 0:20 ... fine, you got to do what's required for the competition. You have to wait for those arms to reconnect for your, to your ribs before you hinge. Then you have to allow yourself th- the time to hinge before you hit the quick turnaround, and now you got to be patient keeping the arms against the body as long as you can so you have this full transfer of energy from the hips and midsection to the arms and the bell. And so, what I see a lot of people do is they rush that. They hinge too early on the way down, they're trying to come up too quick on the way up-

Chris Williamson 0:54 Mm.

Brett Jones 0:55 ... and they're letting the arms disconnect before they fully express the power from their hips. So if they were to display patience at those three stages, wait long enough for the arms to reconnect on the way down, give yourself time to hinge, and then keep the arms against the ribs as long as possible as you're producing power through the ground, you're gonna find a much more powerful swing and better transfer of energy.

Chris Williamson 1:24 I'm joined by Brett Jones, Director of Education at StrongFirst. Brett, welcome to the show.

Brett Jones 1:31 Excellent. It's great to be with you today, and really looking forward to speaking with you and your audience.

Chris Williamson 1:35 Yeah. Me too. We, uh, we haven't touched on strength that much yet. Not in it's, not in its purity. We've, we've circled around it a little bit, but we're talking all things strong today, right?

Brett Jones 1:45 Absolutely. Um, there's... Strength has been, uh, it's, um, been a, something I've pursued, uh, for most of my, uh, adult life, uh, in, in various forms, and, uh, I, I look forward to the conversation on it.

Chris Williamson 2:01 Yeah. It's gonna be good. We'll have some CrossFitters, some powerlifters tuning in, uh, amongst people that just want to be able to lift the shopping a bit, the, the shopping a little bit heavier, I guess, as well, so they might benefit as well. Um-

Brett Jones 2:12 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 2:13 Talking about strength, how do you, as someone who spends his entire time thinking about strength, how do you define strength?

Brett Jones 2:20 So strength can be ... So if we first go with this, uh, this idea of physical strength, um, that can be your ability to produce tension, your ability to produce force against an outside object, or to manipulate your own body, um, g- against a given leverage or position. So it's the ability to produce tension, to produce force against an object, um, and manipulate an object or your own body, uh, like I said. So that, that's kind of the, the 30,000-foot view. Um, when you, d- if you get into the mechanics of it, there's obviously a lot more going on.

Chris Williamson 3:00 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 3:01 Uh, when you go beyond physical strength, and that's, you know ... Within StrongFirst, one of our, uh ... We, we have, actually have like a code of conduct. Uh, we're students of strength, uh, we're quiet professionals, and we believe that strength has a greater purpose. And the, the mission of StrongFirst is to pursue, promote, and practice strength because we believe strength has a greater purpose. And that greater purpose obviously, uh, transcends physical strength into many other areas. Uh, my grandmother is one of the strongest people that I know of on the planet, and she's never lifted a weight in her life.

Chris Williamson 3:35 (laughs)

Brett Jones 3:35 And so, we're not just referring to this concept of physical strength. We do believe that building physical strength can provide a window into, uh, greater strength in one's life, uh, in many areas-

Chris Williamson 3:51 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 3:51 ... not just the physical.

Chris Williamson 3:53 I understand. So yeah, you've, you've touched on one of the, the two, uh, taglines, I suppose, or one of the, the two major elements that StrongFirst does, which is strength has a greater purpose and strength is the master quality. That right?

Brett Jones 4:07 Yes. So if you look at, uh ... Matveev said, uh, that, uh, strength is a foundation of physical development, um, str- for the, uh, for all, uh, qualities of, of physical development. So, uh, I, I remember being in a talk with, uh, Eric Cressey years ago and, you know, Eric, uh, gave a great analogy. People have tried to give me credit for it, so every time I get an opportunity I give him credit for it-

Chris Williamson 4:35 Great.

Brett Jones 4:35 ... 'cause it's where I heard it. Uh, but basically he said, you know, uh, strength is the glass. Every other quality you want to develop goes in that glass. And so the bigger your glass, the more of those other qualities you can develop. And so strength maintains, um, a, uh, a focus and, and a foundation for, uh, people's training. And it's interesting right now as, as physical training has become more ... I'm gonna go old school

Brett Jones 5:05 here for just a second. So if you look at some of the ancient training systems, and I'm drawing back to the Greeks and the German Turnverein system and, uh, some of the, some of the other old training systems which primarily came from training military and, and, uh, and warriors and, and things of that nature. Uh, they really had three main components to them. There was a martial component, uh, which was your ability to respond appropriately to aggression, and you could easily look at that from a martial arts or military perspective, and that makes v- very good sense. There was a restorative component because learning the martial tended to knock you out of center, and so you needed techniques for health and recovery and-

Chris Williamson 5:48 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 5:48 ... regeneration to be able to go do the other stuff again. And then you had a pedagogical body of knowledge that, uh, supported the other two. Fitness has become our martial art. Fitness has become the thing ... So our pillars of training have switched.... to where now our training, our fitness has become this, uh, thing that we do, uh, for itself. Uh, whereas we used to get fit to go do other things. You know, the restorative component in the ancient systems was meant to just allow you to go practice the martial stuff more.

Chris Williamson 6:24 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 6:24 Um, I'm a very exciting guy. I enjoy hiking. So my- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:28 (laughs)

Brett Jones 6:28 ... my training at this point supports my hiking.

Chris Williamson 6:31 (laughs)

Brett Jones 6:31 And- and n- not in addition to my own training and training of my students and the teaching that I do at CERTS and things of that nature. Um, so since fitness has become this martial art, this thing, uh, in and of itself, um, that- that's changed some of our, uh, relationships with- with some of these modalities, strength training being one of them. Um, within a competitive environment, within an environment where people are using, uh, fitness as this display, um, of what they've accomplished, um, then you start using the tools of barbells and body weights and things like that for either higher repetitions or for conditioning-

Chris Williamson 7:19 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 7:19 ... or for, you know, these other aspects of physical development, and the strength training kind of gets- can get lost a little bit.

Chris Williamson 7:27 That's interesting that fitness is now for fitness' sake, rather than in service-

Brett Jones 7:32 Yes.

Chris Williamson 7:32 ... of another purpose. That is a- that is-

Brett Jones 7:35 Yes.

Chris Williamson 7:35 ... uh, uh, an interesting way to frame it. Going back to one of the things that you said at the beginning about strength being the cup and everything else filling it-

Brett Jones 7:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 7:41 ... would you be able to explain how you would see something most people probably wouldn't, uh, link with strength, like endurance capacity, perhaps? How- how do those two link together?

Brett Jones 7:52 So, uh, one of the easiest examples that I can give is if- if it takes you-

Chris Williamson 7:58 (sniffs)

Brett Jones 7:58 ... at this point, 1,000 motor units to accomplish some movement, and that could be a whatever you want it to be, and we're just talking in very broad strokes and generalities, right? So we're just gonna say-

Chris Williamson 8:10 Let's stick to- let's stick to deadlift. Everyone knows the deadlift. Let's talk about that.

Brett Jones 8:13 Okay. So let's say for the deadlift you have to recruit, uh, at this point, 1,000 motor units to accomplish that movement. If I increase your strength, your neural efficiency, your recruitment, your, um, your structural ability, uh, your ability to produce tension, uh, and that- that efficiency, because we- we do look at strength as a skill. Um, you know, people- uh, very few people look at somebody shooting free throws and go, "Wow, he's a really good free throw shooter, but he just has good technique." Um, they just say he's a good free throw shooter.

Chris Williamson 8:48 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 8:48 Um, within strength training, there- there can be the excuse, "Well, he's not that strong. He or she isn't that strong, they- they just have good technique." Like, but strength is a skill.

Chris Williamson 8:58 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 8:59 And there are, we'll talk about it more later, but, you know, there's- there's, uh, people that spend lives, 20, 30, 40 year careers trying to get better at one or two or three exercises.

Chris Williamson 9:09 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 9:10 So it's not, uh, it- it is- it is a lifelong pursuit. Um, so let's say due to our training and everything, I take that 1,000 motor unit requirement, and I drop it to 500.

Chris Williamson 9:23 How would you do that?

Brett Jones 9:25 Uh, via good strength training. So-

Chris Williamson 9:27 So you become more efficient?

Brett Jones 9:28 ... broad strokes. You become- well, yes, because if neural efficiency increases, if my ability to recruit, and we're gonna sound like, I'm gonna sound manic here for just a second, but let's take a little side journey. Uh, we refer to being a strength professional, and when you look at, uh, let's use the bench press as an example. When you look at a strength professional on the bench press, and they- they've actually done this with some EMGs and looking at e- this efficient transfer between muscle groups, uh, during something like the bench press. When a strength professional gets wedged in and they begin their bench press, there's this really smooth transition from lats to pecs to str- to shoulders to triceps. And it's like being in a Formula One race car, right? Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom. You don't even feel the gears change. You just go faster.

Chris Williamson 10:21 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 10:23 Compare that to somebody who's learning how to drive a stick, right? You're gonna get- you're gonna get wep- whiplash and- and damage your neck because, you know, they're (imitates engine revving) , you know, they're shifting gears, and it's- it's really herky-jerky.

Chris Williamson 10:36 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 10:36 And you see that in somebody who's a novice at the bench press. They'll bring it down. If they don't bounce it, then they'll bring it down, and then there's this big push, and there's nothing coming behind it.

Chris Williamson 10:48 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 10:48 So it- it fails and comes back down, or it- it fails and then the second muscle group kicks in, or, you know, however you want to phrase it. And so the- the strength professional has learned how to have these really smooth transitions throughout a range of motion, displaying producing force against an object or whatever. Um, so, yeah, that efficiency, um, leads to the ability to have greater tension, greater efficiency throughout the movement, so I am kind of staying away from some of the, um, mechanical properties at the moment-

Chris Williamson 11:26 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 11:26 ... and referring more to the neurological. Um, so through good strength training, I make you more efficient, and now I get to the point that as a result of increased, uh, better recruitment, better efficiency, um, potentially better quality of the tissue, um, now that 1,000 motor unit effort is a 500 motor unit effort.

Chris Williamson 11:47 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 11:48 How many more times are you gonna be able to produce that 500 motor unit effort? Because now you have 500 motor units in reserve.

Chris Williamson 11:55 Okay.

Brett Jones 11:56 So as those initial 500 fatigue, you just start tapping into the 500 we now have in reserve, and your endurance has increased, uh, by means of increasing your strength.

Chris Williamson 12:08 Mm-hmm. So the work capacity's gone up because it's less effortful to achieve the same movement?

Brett Jones 12:15 Yes.

Chris Williamson 12:15 Okay. That's interesting. So, we, we've kind of circled around it for a little bit. How, how do you, uh, contextualize strength, or what are the components of strength?

Brett Jones 12:26 Wow. That's, uh, that's a, a, a broad, uh, topic.

Chris Williamson 12:30 Fair point. Fair point indeed.

Brett Jones 12:32 So, (laughs) um, 'cause if, if we're sticking with the physical-

Chris Williamson 12:37 Mm-hmm. Yes.

Brett Jones 12:38 ... then, um, there is, uh, so let's break that into the neurological, uh, which is the patterning, uh, the efficiency between muscle groups, and really, you know, having, uh, a really high level of skill in that movement. And when you dive down and you really dig into something like a deadlift or a bench press or a squat or a clean and jerk, or whatever you want to dig into, um, a one-arm pushup, uh, whatever the case may be-

Chris Williamson 13:08 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 13:10 ... um, that neurological aspect, um, your ability to bring, uh, your intraabdominal tension, your high tension techniques, your efficiency, uh, transitioning through the muscle groups, that neurological aspect is, is really key. And, uh, that means, uh, one of our key programming principles is we, we keep a continuity of the training process. So, if I'm going to look towards building strength, I'm going to be doing the same exercises for a, a g- a good period of time-

Chris Williamson 13:43 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 13:43 ... to allow time for this learning and efficiency and gaining of skill. If I'm switching exercises every four weeks, um, I, I doubt there's been a successful Olympic lifter, uh, that has changed exercises every four weeks.

Chris Williamson 13:57 (laughs)

Brett Jones 13:58 Um, they may be modifying their routine within the context of, of t- trying to optimize the clean and jerk and the snatch-

Chris Williamson 14:04 Hmm.

Brett Jones 14:05 ... uh, but they're going to work on the clean and jerk and the snatch-

Chris Williamson 14:07 Hmm.

Brett Jones 14:07 ... um, and then highlight areas that need attention. So this continuity of the training process is going to stick with us. So from a neurological standpoint, we're really focused on this, uh, concept of strength as a skill and s- uh, practicing and pursuing our strength over time-

Chris Williamson 14:23 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 14:23 ... uh, via the continuity. From a more structural standpoint, now we're talking about the tissue quality, and, uh, there's all of these things that happen within a muscle, uh, that produce movement. Uh, you can go down to the, the, um, the muscle fibers and, and look at the crossbridges and actin and myosin and, uh, myokinase, and, and you've got, uh, the calcium going in and out. You, you know, you have this really, um, complicated physiological thing, um, and of course the energy to do that via the ATP and the mitochondrion, um, uh, all of these things. So there's, there's, there's these two, uh... I prefer to treat the physiological aspect as kind of a black box (laughs) where we do things and we get a response, and I don't necessarily need to understand all of the details that's happening in the black box.

Chris Williamson 15:13 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 15:14 Um, and actually from a computer standpoint, there's a lot of, uh, artificial intelligence algorithms and things like that that are basically treated like a black box. They actually don't understand what's happening inside the AI box-

Chris Williamson 15:25 Hmm.

Brett Jones 15:26 ... but we get results-

Chris Williamson 15:28 So the in-

Brett Jones 15:28 ... that come out the other side.

Chris Williamson 15:28 ... the, the input's controlled, the output is what you want, and the process in the middle, it doesn't really matter so much, I don't suppose, as long as the output is what you wanted.

Brett Jones 15:39 Yes.

Chris Williamson 15:39 I like it.

Brett Jones 15:40 So we, we, we get kind of bogged down into the physiology because it's fascinating.

Chris Williamson 15:44 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 15:44 I mean, you talk about the... One of the things that, that we work on is this balance of tension and relaxation. And so it sounds weird for a guy that's all about strength to be talking about relaxation, but if you're not able to relax, you can never fully bring your strength to bear.

Chris Williamson 16:00 Hmm.

Brett Jones 16:01 And from an athletic standpoint, if I'm walking around half tight all the time, I'm neither efficient or fast or powerful, so I have to be able to relax. Well, relaxation actually takes more energy in the muscle than contraction.

Chris Williamson 16:17 Is that true?

Brett Jones 16:17 Because now you have to... Yeah, you have to pump out the calcium that gave you the crossbridges and the, and the contraction. Now you've got to pump that out in order to create the relaxation. And so there's this, um, there's this balance to be achieved, and, uh, your skill at relaxation can enhance your strength and your ability to produce power and, and force and things of that nature.

Chris Williamson 16:41 Interesting.

Brett Jones 16:41 So... But that's complicated. Like, there's a lot going on in there, and I'm, I'm, uh, just a good old knuckle dragger. I like, uh, I like, you know, lifting and doing the fun stuff. And, um, while I have gone down some of the rabbit holes of the, the complexity, um, you can still read the research and see how conflicted we still are-

Chris Williamson 17:04 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 17:04 ... on things like hypertrophy-

Chris Williamson 17:06 Hmm.

Brett Jones 17:06 ... and, uh, other aspects of muscle development. Um, so there's, there's a lot going on there. Um, so I just kind of treat that as a black box.

Chris Williamson 17:14 (laughs)

Brett Jones 17:14 And like you said, the input, the output, and the magic happens in the black box.

Chris Williamson 17:18 In the middle. Yeah.

Brett Jones 17:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:19 I, I, uh, honestly, one of the problems that I found when I was a young guy and learning about lifting and, and stuff, so I'm going back to probably 2007, which is, like, bodybuilding.com days, like, quite heavily forum based, um, and it was so bro sciencey-

Brett Jones 17:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:36 ... uh, and for every, for every article that you read that said one thing, you could find one that said the opposite. And the same is still true now. Like, for every person f- for whom keto works amazingly, there's another person for whom high carb works amazingly, and then someone will do intermittent fasting, and someone will stick to a, a more consistent, steady grazing style, um, sort of typical bodybuilder's, uh, diet. And you know, it, it really is a case of trying to find the principles, I suppose, and moving those forward. Um, so I've got a couple of questions. I've got one, one question for you, which will come up in a little bit, which I think might be like you trying to choose your favorite child. Um, but-

Brett Jones 18:14 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:16 ... um, for now, when we're talking about strength, is progressive overload king?

Brett Jones 18:23 Yes. However, um-

Chris Williamson 18:26 (laughs) There's always a caveat.

Brett Jones 18:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:27 Brett, there's always-- there's always a bloody caveat, isn't there?

Brett Jones 18:30 I, I know, and it's, it'd be, it ... Life would be much simpler if, if we were able to just give absolutes, but, uh, only Siths, uh, deal in absolutes. So, um, we'll, uh, we'll stick with, uh, the, the asterisks and the caveat. Yes, progressive overload is the key, but, uh, I ... Within the, within StrongFirst, which, uh, are, we call ourselves the School of Strength, uh, we specialize in kettlebell, barbell, and body weight, uh, not only from a tactical standpoint, but from a programming standpoint. And Pavel's recent work within PlanStrong and Strong Endurance, uh, in particular, has, uh, with his new book, Quick and the Dead, you can get a window into some of our new conditioning and strength and, um, uh, conditioning, um, research and, and work that we've been doing. Um, the fourth branch of the School of Strength is programming, and in the development of PlanStrong, when Pavel took a step back and he looked at, uh, the most successful Olympic lifting dominance, uh, of the Russians, and you can make all the comments you want about, uh, the pharmaceuticals that may have been involved, but everybody was doing it, and the Russians were still dominant.

Chris Williamson 19:46 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 19:47 And not only were they dominant, they were dominant over years.

Chris Williamson 19:50 Yeah.

Brett Jones 19:51 Uh, Olympic lifting is not considered a ... It's a young person's sport, right?

Chris Williamson 19:55 (laughs)

Brett Jones 19:55 Well, they had Russians setting world records in their 30s and late into their 30s-

Chris Williamson 20:00 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 20:01 ... and still winning world records or world, uh, championships and Olympics and things like that. Um, so when you really look at their programming, yes, it's progressive over time, but we trended, we tend to treat that as this linear relationship-

Chris Williamson 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 20:18 ... where we're always going up. When you look at a very successful program, like the Russians had, uh, what you see is that.

Chris Williamson 20:29 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 20:30 There's a lot of variability. And actually, about 80% of their work happened around 70% of their 1RM. So there was a tremendous amount of work happening at a very accessible, uh, effort level.

Chris Williamson 20:45 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 20:46 Which you can recover from, and you can build skill with, and you can, uh, have all of these great, uh, results. And then you're, you're doing some work in the top end, um, little bit below that, but a, about 75%, 80% of their work happened in this, um, about 70% 1RM, uh, sort of area.

Chris Williamson 21:05 What's a, what's a-

Brett Jones 21:05 Um-

Chris Williamson 21:05 ... rep range on that, if you were to go to failure? Probably about six?

Brett Jones 21:10 And ... Yes, but here's the thing. We're never going to failure.

Chris Williamson 21:14 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 21:15 So yeah, 70% might get you, uh, six to eight, and there's a tremendous variability in how people line up on those rep charts.

Chris Williamson 21:25 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 21:26 Um, I was always able to operate actually at a pretty high percentage of my 1RM, um, but then if you looked at the charts, I should have been lifting way more. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:35 Yeah, that's- that's me. That's me, unfortunately. Can rep out-

Brett Jones 21:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:38 ... something, can rep out 80, 80% or 70% for ages, but then just the top end of that curve flattens off. There'll be a lot of people at home that are the same.

Brett Jones 21:47 Yeah. Um, so what you're looking for is the progression over time, but you ... And I just wrote this article for StrongFirst. You have this waviness in the short term. So, um, you're, you're always manipulating, uh, that, uh, variable and yeah, like I said, we're progressive over time. We're not progressive in a linear, uh, standpoint.

Chris Williamson 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 22:11 So kind of like-

Chris Williamson 22:11 Yeah.

Brett Jones 22:11 ... the stock market.

Chris Williamson 22:13 Yeah.

Brett Jones 22:13 You know, if you look at it day by day, it's doing this. If you look at it over time, it does that.

Chris Williamson 22:17 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 22:18 Uh, but if you just try to do this and be purely linear, you're gonna run into problems.

Chris Williamson 22:23 Why?

Brett Jones 22:24 Um, well, if, if that was true, if I could simply go to the, go down to the bench and add a pound every day, I'd be 365 pounds heavier in my bench, you know, year after year after year.

Chris Williamson 22:39 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 22:39 Which obviously just doesn't happen.

Chris Williamson 22:41 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 22:41 So you fatigue out both from a central nervous system standpoint because of the skill-driven and neurological driven aspects of strength, uh, and you burn out from a physiological standpoint because tissue adaptation, uh, tendons and ligaments, are kind of the slowest to adapt. Uh, we'll build some big old muscles and the tendons and ligaments are like, "Dude, we're not ready yet."

Chris Williamson 23:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 23:05 And so you have to allow time for overall tissue adaptation, and that also responds very well to having this variation in what you're doing, uh, so that, uh, you allow time for all of these things to come together.

Chris Williamson 23:19 Mm-hmm. I suppose that cycling through different movements, as you said as well, and sticking to maybe two months with one particular routine or three months with one particular routine and then periodizing into something else will probably allow you to, to achieve that as well. So, right. I'm gonna, Brett, I'm gonna ask you the, the most difficult question that I can ask you. Um, you're only allowed to do three exercises for the rest of your life.

Brett Jones 23:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:42 What are they?

Brett Jones 23:44 So, uh, yeah, you're right. It's like, uh, choosing, choosing children. Um, so I'll give two different answers. Um-

Chris Williamson 23:53 (laughs) That is such a-

Brett Jones 23:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:55 ... such a politician's answer.

Brett Jones 23:58 But I told you what I was gonna do.

Chris Williamson 23:59 Fair enough. Fair enough.

Brett Jones 24:00 I didn't, I didn't, I didn't dodge the question.

Chris Williamson 24:01 Okay. Okay.

Brett Jones 24:02 I just said I was gonna give you two options.

Chris Williamson 24:03 All right.

Brett Jones 24:05 For me personally-

Chris Williamson 24:06 Yes.

Brett Jones 24:06 ... um, I am a squataholic. I love to barbell squat. Um, because I do a lot of swings and a lot of kettlebell work, I don't have to do as much work on my deadlift-

Chris Williamson 24:23 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 24:23 ... because I, I do a powerful hip hinge on a consistent basis. So-... I personally like to squat.

Chris Williamson 24:31 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 24:32 And I think for the individual, it's finding which are you. Do you need to squat? Do you need to deadlift?

Chris Williamson 24:38 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 24:38 Uh, because both of those are gonna give you mileage for a long time.

Chris Williamson 24:42 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 24:43 If you're not swinging and working on a powerful hip hinge, then you probably need to be deadlifting instead of squatting.

Chris Williamson 24:49 Hmm. Interesting.

Brett Jones 24:51 If that makes sense.

Chris Williamson 24:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. It does. Why, why would you put the-

Brett Jones 24:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:56 ... deadlift ahead of the squat in isolation?

Brett Jones 25:00 Um, it is... So there's a couple... And I'm putting it ahead of that because if I'm swinging-

Chris Williamson 25:08 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 25:08 ... and producing a lot of power in my swing-

Chris Williamson 25:10 Mm.

Brett Jones 25:10 ... then I'm already doing all the strength work I need for my hinge.

Chris Williamson 25:13 Okay.

Brett Jones 25:13 Quotation marks caveat.

Chris Williamson 25:14 Understood.

Brett Jones 25:15 Um, so that's why I put it, if you're not gonna swing, you definitely need to build your hinge and work on your deadlift.

Chris Williamson 25:23 And that's not-

Brett Jones 25:23 But if you're-

Chris Williamson 25:24 That's not achievable just with a s- just with a squat?

Brett Jones 25:28 I don't think so. I think there's aspects of the deadlift as far as the inclusion of the upper body via the grip and the lats and the way the deadlift happens that make it, uh, a different animal than the squat.

Chris Williamson 25:42 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 25:43 The squat carries with it, um, more skill requirements. Uh, you are loading the spine in a, in a, um-

Chris Williamson 25:51 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 25:51 ... unique way. Um, so there's, there's different aspects involved in building that squat, um, pardon me, which I think make the deadlift a better choice over time for a broader swath of the population.

Chris Williamson 26:04 Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 26:06 Um, so that's kinda the, um... From a symmetrical stance standpoint, you need to figure out whether you need to squat or deadlift.

Chris Williamson 26:15 Yep.

Brett Jones 26:16 We gotta push. We gotta do some sort of press.

Chris Williamson 26:19 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 26:20 Um, and military press or bench press. So I told you I was gonna give you two options.

Chris Williamson 26:28 That's okay.

Brett Jones 26:28 Um, military press incorporates, uh, the standing posture. Uh, you do need to have a very stable midsection, the ability to resist extension, and maintain your position under that overhead load. And so the military press has, I- I'm, I'm gonna say, higher requirements than the bench press.

Chris Williamson 26:48 Mm. Mm-hmm. Globally. Yeah.

Brett Jones 26:50 But the... Globally. But the bench is a great way to produce upper body strength, um, and the way we teach it and, uh, really, uh, you bench from your feet, um, and w- looking at a good lateral arch, not necessarily an AP arch. You set a foundation via the feet and the lateral arch to really drive, uh, through the upper body. So, you're gonna build more upper body mass and strength via the bench press. You're gonna build upper body strength via the military press. Um, so picking which one you need there, put, you know, make your choice.

Chris Williamson 27:30 Mm.

Brett Jones 27:31 Um, I... And, and we're sticking with strength training here. Um, I do think you need some sort of pull, uh, such as a pull-up. I think the lats are, uh, such an important tie-in from upper to lower body and for everything we wanna be doing, whether it's running or deadlifting or squatting or benching or pressing. Um, I think the lats deserve their, their moment, uh, kind of the upper body squat-

Chris Williamson 28:00 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 28:00 ... as it was once known.

Chris Williamson 28:01 Mm-hmm. I get it. Well, one thing that I'm interested in is your inclusion of kettlebells, because it's only been recently for me that I've seen, uh, kettlebells really kind of come into their own. Guys like yourselves, uh, and Onnit, um, uh, and companies that are really, really pushing the, the sort of kettlebell movements, not just as... 'Cause kettlebells maybe, for me, 10, 10 years ago would have been part of a Bums and Tums class for, like, my mum to go and do. You know what I mean?

Brett Jones 28:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:37 Maybe like a two and a half kilo kettlebell or something like that, and it's kind of just there to make someone feel like they're lifting a weight. Whereas now, there's much more sophisticated, um, public knowledge about, around the training for that. Can you talk, talk us through your, your vision and your views on, on kettlebell training overall?

Brett Jones 28:56 Absolutely. Um, it's something that I've been... I first got, um, certified, uh, with Pavel, uh, in February of '02. Um-

Chris Williamson 29:07 Wow.

Brett Jones 29:07 I started teaching with Pavel in, in April of '03. So literally for 16, almost 17 years I've been traveling, uh, the US and the world teaching kettlebell training and, and certifying others in, in the use of the tool. Um, so the kettlebell for me represents such an excellent entry point to the world of strength and a bridge towards the world of conditioning and power work, uh, that make it a really unique and, and really a tool that I think belongs in everybody's program. And "everybody" in quotation marks, caveat, um, 'cause that's, you know, no, no, no one thing for all people.

Chris Williamson 29:46 Yeah, yeah.

Brett Jones 29:47 So, um, I think the thick handle and offset center of mass make it a very different and alive tool in your hands, where now you're controlling this rotation or movement of the center, displaced center of mass, or that displaced center of mass is actually guiding you into better positions during the movement. It... So it requires, uh, a, a, a increased level of alignment with integrity under load. And I'm grabbing that from Gray Cook, one of my other mentors. And, uh, so via the get-up and the press and things like that that take advantage of this offset center of mass, uh, you have this alignment with integrity under load, which builds this kind of great postural control, which helps set the foundation for a lot of the strength and the power work that you want to be doing.And so, the kettlebell, in my mind and what I've seen over the- the last, you know, um, 17, 18 years of using the tool myself, um, I- I- I think it, uh, it really fits a need for people that a dumbbell, a barbell, uh, kind of don't provide-

Chris Williamson 30:56 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 30:56 ... because that- that weight centers with your, uh, grip, instead of being offset. Uh, an old joke for us is you, uh, can't swing a barbell between your legs, uh, more than once.

Chris Williamson 31:10 (laughs)

Brett Jones 31:10 And so, the- the (laughs) the kettlebell allows you to achieve this really unique loaded eccentric position, which has tremendous carryover for anything athletic. And, uh, from a power standpoint, um, I think Zatziorski and- and- and others would put it in a power metric, um- um, category, not plyometric, but it still produces, um ... I can produce three, three and a half times body weight eccentric load at the bottom of a 24-kilo-

Chris Williamson 31:41 Hmm.

Brett Jones 31:42 ... uh, kettlebell swing.

Chris Williamson 31:43 Because it's so dynamic, right?

Brett Jones 31:45 Exactly. And that loaded eccentric really is unique. So I- I think kettlebells fulfill, uh, check a lot of boxes. And you'll see this if you look at Quick and the Dead, um, once you've built a base of strength, power training has a lot to offer, and you have to be strong enough to be powerful.

Chris Williamson 32:04 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 32:04 And so we're still not forgetting that strength is the foundation. But once you have achieved a base level of strength, that power work really delivers across multiple spectrums of, uh, physical development, whether we're talking about endurance, power, strength. And so-

Chris Williamson 32:20 What's- what's the difference between power and strength?

Brett Jones 32:23 So, um, power is how quickly you can apply your strength.

Chris Williamson 32:29 Okay. Yep.

Brett Jones 32:29 Strength is how much force you can produce.

Chris Williamson 32:31 So, it'd be the equivalent of, uh, horsepower versus torque.

Brett Jones 32:36 Yes. I- I'd ... I- I'll go with that, uh, analogy-

Chris Williamson 32:39 (laughs) Yeah.

Brett Jones 32:39 ... very e- very easily.

Chris Williamson 32:40 That ... Yeah.

Brett Jones 32:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:40 Like a torquey- a torquey engine might not be quite so fast, but can pull a very heavy load. A high brick horsepower engine can go very quickly, but might not be able to pull such a heavy thing.

Brett Jones 32:50 Yes.

Chris Williamson 32:50 And then in between the two, you have a- a midpoint. Okay. Okay.

Brett Jones 32:55 Yes.

Chris Williamson 32:55 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we will have a lot of CrossFitters and other strength athletes listening, but CrossFitters especially, we're about to enter the open, which is a period-

Brett Jones 33:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:03 ... during which, uh, there will inevitably be kettlebell swings. Would you be able to-

Brett Jones 33:09 Sure.

Chris Williamson 33:09 ... talk us through how you see the optimal kettlebell swing, or what the- (clicking)

Brett Jones 33:14 ... some of the coaching cues are that you look for that you think most people might- might mess up with?

Chris Williamson 33:19 I think, um, if- if I were to give, um, one piece of advice ... Uh, well, we'll make it two. (laughs) Uh, number one is patience. True power means you're patient enough to allow that power to come to fruition. So, it means at the top of my swing, and if it's- if it is the games, and you are doing the overhead swing-

Brett Jones 33:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:51 ... fine, you got to do what's required for the competition.

Brett Jones 33:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:54 Um, it's waiting for those arms to re- ... (laughs) I'm gonna just p- pull my, uh- Stabilize things. Yeah, yeah.

Brett Jones 33:59 ... camera off the ... Yeah. Um, you have to wait for those arms to reconnect for your- to your ribs before you hinge. Then you have to allow yourself t- the time to hinge before you hit the quick turnaround. And now you got to be patient keeping the arms against the body as long as you can, so you have this full transfer of energy from the hips and midsection to the arms and the bell. And so, what I see a lot of people do is they rush that. They hinge too early on the way down. They're trying to come up too quick on the way up-

Chris Williamson 34:34 Hmm.

Brett Jones 34:34 ... and they're letting the arms disconnect before they've fully expressed the power from their hips. So, if they were to display patience at those three stages, wait long enough for the arms to reconnect on the way down, give yourself time to hinge, and then keep the arms against the ribs as long as possible as you're producing power through the ground, you're gonna find a much more powerful swing and better transfer of energy. Um, so that more than anything, if people would display some patience, um, they're gonna be- they're gonna be a lot better off. Uh-

Chris Williamson 35:13 I can definitely feel in myself when I'm doing a heavy kettlebell workout, uh, especially when we- we are going, uh, to the overhead standard from CrossFit. Um, I can tell when that excitement during a workout takes over my form. Uh, and I know that when that's happening because my traps get pumped.

Brett Jones 35:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:33 And it's because, I'm going to guess, because I'm upright rowing that- that weight up and overhead, that pull in pop, pop-

Brett Jones 35:40 Yes.

Chris Williamson 35:40 ... as opposed to allowing myself to swing through and then-

Brett Jones 35:43 Yes.

Chris Williamson 35:43 ... taking it from there.

Brett Jones 35:45 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:45 That's interesting.

Brett Jones 35:46 And that's ... So, when ... And when you look at it from a timing perspective, um ... And it sounds like, you know, oh, he's saying, you know, be patient. It's the every rep's gonna take so long.

Chris Williamson 35:58 (clears throat)

Brett Jones 35:58 And it's not. It's just being patient enough to allow those things to happen in the proper timing and sequence. Um, you'll actually ... You know, the- the rep speed will be not that much different, but it will be that much more powerful and efficient-

Chris Williamson 36:14 Hmm.

Brett Jones 36:14 ... because now it's happening in the correct sequence.

Chris Williamson 36:16 That's a hell of a lot quicker-

Brett Jones 36:17 And you're not having to fake it.

Chris Williamson 36:17 ... when you don't have to put the barbell, uh, the ... put the dumb- ... the kettlebell down.

Brett Jones 36:22 Yes.

Chris Williamson 36:22 (laughs) It's a hell of a lot quicker when you don't have to take as many-

Brett Jones 36:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:24 ... when you take, like, half as many breaks perhaps, because you're moving better. Okay, so that's- that's the first one. And what's the-

Brett Jones 36:29 Yep.

Chris Williamson 36:29 ... what's the ... what's the second, the second key?

Brett Jones 36:31 Well, I- I went so long into the first one that I'm- I'm ... Oh, okay. Sync your breathing.

Chris Williamson 36:36 Okay.

Brett Jones 36:37 So-

Chris Williamson 36:37 Interesting.

Brett Jones 36:38 Now, in-There's- I'm gonna give you the kind of the- there- there's a- a- a we'll call it a boilerplate answer, and then knowing that there's, uh, techniques and strategies to optimize the breath during an extended effort. Uh, so we have a competition within Strong First called the TSC, the Tactical Strength Challenge, and one of the aspects of that, uh, competition is a, uh, max snatches in five minutes. Uh, (clears throat) so, and we have people that'll achieve, with a 24 kilo bell, and some with a 32 kilo bell, we'll have people achieving 120, 130, 140 reps within five minutes.

Chris Williamson 37:18 That's disgusting. (laughs)

Brett Jones 37:18 Um, it's, oh, it's- it's- it's awful.

Chris Williamson 37:21 (laughs)

Brett Jones 37:21 Um, as soon as I recover from it, I'll do it again.

Chris Williamson 37:24 Yeah.

Brett Jones 37:24 Um, but, so, you know, the sniff in to have good intra-abdominal pressure and- and bracing during the hinge, and then having the forced exhale match with when the hips finish, um, that syncs your power so that your power is efficient, uh, over, uh, uh, a number of reps.

Chris Williamson 37:47 Okay.

Brett Jones 37:49 So what happens is, during a sustained effort, you will reach a time point where the need for oxygen becomes great.

Chris Williamson 37:59 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 37:59 And so that breathing pace needs to change. Uh, one of the easiest ways to- to change with that, uh, especially within a five-minute effort, uh, is the double inhale. So during the hinge, (inhales) instead of having a single inhale, (inhales) you have a double inhale. And so you're actually kind of filling the tank (inhales) and (inhales) topping it off, and then having the exhale synced with the hips. Um, and then there's ways to have multiple breathing cycles within every rep. And so there's, uh, double breathing. So you're act-

Chris Williamson 38:35 Really getting into the nitty-gritty here then. I guess this is how you get-

Brett Jones 38:38 Yeah, ex- exactly.

Chris Williamson 38:39 ... 130, 130 kettlebell snatches in five minutes out.

Brett Jones 38:42 Right.

Chris Williamson 38:43 (laughs)

Brett Jones 38:43 And that's why I prefer the boilerplate answer.

Chris Williamson 38:45 Yep.

Brett Jones 38:45 (laughs) Because getting into the double breathing gets a little more complicated.

Chris Williamson 38:48 Complex, yeah. So what we're talking about is that you're going to breathe out as your arms are releasing contact with the body on the way up, is that correct?

Brett Jones 38:58 Ye- I would- I would sync it more with the finish of the hips-

Chris Williamson 39:01 Okay.

Brett Jones 39:02 ... rather than thinking about the arms. But you are not releasing the arms from the ribs until the hips finish, so-

Chris Williamson 39:08 Understood.

Brett Jones 39:09 ... yes. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:10 Understood, okay. Um, and then as you're coming back down, you're taking the breath in just before you begin to hinge?

Brett Jones 39:17 Uh, yes. So when you hit the bottom, (inhales) you've got that bubble of intra-abdominal pressure-

Chris Williamson 39:23 Ah.

Brett Jones 39:23 ... that gives you something to then produce force against on the way up.

Chris Williamson 39:27 Yes. There's definitely been times I can think of, I'm sure that the listeners will be able to sympathize as well, when (clears throat) you are breathing too much and you just get out of time, and you're fully exhaled at the bottom thr- as you're swinging a kettlebell-

Brett Jones 39:42 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 39:42 ... through your legs. And it feels like someone's come up behind you and kicked you in the middle of the ass. And you, like-

Brett Jones 39:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:48 ... nearly fall forward into the, into the workout, which is not nice.

Brett Jones 39:53 Not great. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:54 No. No, no, no. But again, as you say, a lot of the people that will be listening may be doing these under fatigue. You know, if you're a CrossFit athlete and you've got this in amongst a bunch of rowing and potentially pull-ups or s- something else, and your grip's going and everything else like that, you do need to be, you do need to be delicate with that. So I suppose trying to adhere to that as closely as possible is- is not gonna be a bad idea.

Brett Jones 40:16 Definitely. And- and that would lead into a, um, a potentially another podcast (laughs) on the concept of the difference between your training and your testing.

Chris Williamson 40:25 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 40:25 And the fact that your- your training does not always have to look like your testing.

Chris Williamson 40:30 Hmm.

Brett Jones 40:30 And, uh, you build capacity, uh, and minimize fatigue rather than always trying to... 'Cause conditioning, uh, and I know we're getting away from the strength message, but the conditioning has kind of fallen into, uh, the primary camp that conditioning has fallen into is building tolerance. Basically, this is gonna suck, so we're gonna do it, and over time, it will suck less-

Chris Williamson 40:57 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 40:57 ... because you are, have better tolerance to this.

Chris Williamson 40:59 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 41:00 Um, there is another way in- in building capacity, your ability to handle the energy production and the byproducts and the- the- the- the efficiency of the- of the- of the organism versus the tolerance of the organism. And so if when... And again, you look at Quick and the Dead and- and Pavel's new stuff, you'll see a lot on this. Um, you can build a lot of capacity and hav- (clears throat) have better health, kind of lower injury, better performance, and test better. But if you're always testing yourself and you're burning that candle hard, it's like having, uh, NOS, it's like having nitric oxide on your car-

Chris Williamson 41:40 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 41:40 ... well, if you're using that to go pick up a loaf of bread, um, you're gonna burn out your car. You want to save that for that one moment where you need that extra boost.

Chris Williamson 41:50 Is that where the 70% or so window appears to be optimal? Is that one of the reasons why that will be in there as well?

Brett Jones 42:01 It is. It is.

Chris Williamson 42:03 It's interesting 'cause a- again, I'm around a lot of CrossFitters, um, but I'm just around a lot of athletes who like to go hard as well-

Brett Jones 42:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:10 ... whatever their particular given field. There- there is a- a subgroup, um, that train in our gym who are just sadists.

Brett Jones 42:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:19 And they enjoy, they enjoy getting into that 190 BPM heart range. Like, that's- that's what they live for. And, uh, you know, it is, it is very unique in the fitness world, based on what I know, having spoken to guys like Dr. McGill, um, Brian Carroll as well-

Brett Jones 42:41 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 42:41 ... these sorts of guys who talk about, uh, embedding the movement engrams in as- as perfect a way as possible, especially if we're talking about, you know, big lifts that need to be perfect, um, and doing those under fatigue appears to be a very, very dangerous way to train.

Brett Jones 43:00 Uh, yes. I, I would, I would agree with that. Um, and I, and I think that, uh, well, there's one reason we prefer something like the kettlebell swing, kettlebell snatch as our display of, um, uh, uh, maintaining our, our, um, skill over time under fatigue.

Chris Williamson 43:18 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 43:18 'Cause there's, there's different ways to look at this, and as we're building, f- pardon me, as we're building these patterns, I have to load you to find out if that pattern's gonna hold up under the load. And then I need to, if, especially if I'm training an athlete or, or, or somebody, uh, I'm gonna have to push you into some fatigue to see if that pattern's gonna hold up under the fatigue. And it's my job as a coach to know when to pull back-

Chris Williamson 43:45 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 43:45 ... because you're not handling the, the fatigue, uh, in the form or the load in the form. And so that's where my skill comes in to say, "No, that's enough for today," or, "Yes, you can push, go a little further." Um, so definitely-

Chris Williamson 44:00 Can you-

Brett Jones 44:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:00 ... can you suggest any, uh, heuristics or rules that people who don't have a coach that's on hand can use?

Brett Jones 44:08 So it's re- I, I would, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna couch this in a couple of different ways. Uh, I would say that rest is the single most abused training variable.

Chris Williamson 44:20 Hm.

Brett Jones 44:21 We, we don't rest enough. Um, and I remember years ago when the high-intensity interval training really became popular and was basically a response to this idea that nobody had time to train, and so here comes this high-intensity interval sort of protocols and, uh, TABATA, uh, which nobody's ever done TABATA outside of the original TABATA research. It's, it's a miserable, uh, thing to, uh, to even think about, much less endure. And, uh, and just 'cause you're doing, you know, burpees for 20 seconds on, 10 seconds off, you're not doing TABATA. Um, it was a completely different thing. But anyway.

Chris Williamson 45:00 Yeah.

Brett Jones 45:01 You know, here comes this message that you have this high intensity with short rest for a compressed period of time, and you accomplish all of these great things. Um, that's... Yes, you will for a little while, and then the wheels will fall off.

Chris Williamson 45:19 Why?

Brett Jones 45:20 Because it's like a crash diet.

Chris Williamson 45:22 Mm.

Brett Jones 45:22 You just can't maintain it. It's, n- n- you know, if you're, if we're doing the cabbage soup diet, you know, we're gonna lose a lot of weight, uh, and accomplish some great short term results, and then we're not going to because nutritional deficiencies and problems will set in.

Chris Williamson 45:36 Mm.

Brett Jones 45:37 When you burn the candle to, uh, both ends and in the middle and you're burning the nas every time you go into the session, the car eventually falls apart. You just can't handle that level of stress over that period of time. You exceed the ability of the organism to compensate and recover from that stress. Um, and again, we're back into the c- capacity versus tolerance discussion, and I would rather build capacity and have this, uh, health aspect to my training. Um, I'm an ancient 48 years old, and, uh, I can tell you that, uh, I, I enjoy the health, uh, aspect of my training. Um, from a strength standpoint, you know, I was the 11th guy in the world to bend the red nail. I've accomplished a, a good number of grip strength feats, um, some decent, not great, uh, power lifting numbers, uh, raw. And so I, I've built my strength, and I, I've worked on that end of things. I've snatched a kettlebell a bunch of times and worked on the conditioning end of things. Um, but the only place health comes before, or fitness comes before health is in the dictionary. Your, your training should be driving you towards a, a better, uh, standpoint as far as your health is concerned. And we may sacrifice that from time to time in order to accomplish a performance goal. Certainly, if your goal... Uh, I was working with a guy at a workshop, and his goal was to bench 500, and he was doing whatever it took, and you can read into that whatever you want to. He was doing whatever it took to get to 500, and I gave him s- a couple of mobility techniques and things to work on because he was really suffering, uh, with his shoulders, and, but he was gonna do whatever it took to accomplish that goal. As long as he's willing to change goals (laughs) once he's accomplished that, uh, and regain the health of his shoulders and body and things of that nature, fine. Like, we, we make these decisions from time to time. Um, if you're gonna run a marathon, get, get ready to spend a lot of money on treatment and, and, uh, surviving the training and the marathon, and then hopefully you get healthy, you know, on the, on the back end of that. So we make those decisions as long as those are conscious decisions and things that we've, we've factored in. If the only thing we know how to do is burn ourselves to a frazzle, be forced to take time off, either due to illness or injury, and then burn ourselves to a frazzle again, I think there's a better way.

Chris Williamson 48:09 Reminds me of, uh, Eddie Hall, hearing him, uh, talking about the way that, that his body was and how he felt around about the time when he won World's Strongest Man.

Brett Jones 48:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:23 And he was talking about the fact that his marriage was falling apart, and he's barely seeing his kids, and he was so heavy that he c- I think he's like 190 kilos, and he's like 5'9" or something or like 5'10" or something like that that's some inordinate size, as wide as he was tall. And, um-

Brett Jones 48:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:44 ... uh, he was talking about all of these different things. But as you say, he said, "I, I wanted to be the world's strongest man. I was prepared to do whatever it took to do that." But one thing I've got massive amount of respect for Eddie for is seeing the transformation that he's undergone after he completed that goal.So he did complete that goal. He got where he wanted to, and he has taken a complete step back from the professional side of that sport. Now, he's doing other stuff. He's doing, um, a lot more varied fitness challenges. I think he's like swimming and stuff at the moment, which must be a bizarre sight to see him in a pool.

Brett Jones 49:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:22 But, yeah, uh, uh, you know, you're right. People are prepared to make sacrifices for things that they deem to be valuable to them, given their values in life. They think, "I-

Brett Jones 49:34 Sure.

Chris Williamson 49:35 ... uh, this will make me feel satisfied and give me a sense of accomplishment if I X, run this marathon, deadlift 600 pounds, bench press 500 pounds," whatever it might be. Um, there is a, there is a treadmill that people can get on, where they don't realize that if there isn't a goal at the end of that, if it's just fitness for fitness's sake, if there's no end point, if there's no periodization, that's when you get people that do get severe burnout or they end up with a very serious injury. Um, so yeah, you, you, you mentioned about one of the ways that, that people can self-judge when they're pushing themselves too hard, uh, and when they potentially need to move back towards capacity.

Brett Jones 50:26 (clears throat) So, um, so with, with ... Let's go within a session, because I think that's important. Um, if your rep speed is slowing down, if your ... so your tempo changes.

Chris Williamson 50:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 50:40 Um, and I- I have a very easy metric on that. If I'm doing swings and I know 10 swings takes me roughly 17 to 18 seconds, if that 10 swings starts taking me 20, 21 seconds, um, I'm slowing down. Uh, I am beating the proverbial dead horse. It is time for me to stop or increase my rest periods.

Chris Williamson 51:05 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 51:06 Um, so seeing tempo change, um, exceeding about an eight out of 10 on a RPE, um, unable to catch your breath, you know, you're not able to recover before the next set. I've been a slave to the clock for years, and have, over the last couple of years, uh, worked very hard to free myself, uh, from the clock and allowing myself better recovery, and not surprisingly, seeing better results, uh, in my training. Um, so those are just some, some easy kind of stop signs that, that we talk about within Strong First, that, uh, you know, within a session, within a set, within a session, within a, a per- uh, training session, you- we look for those things. Um, the ... I think it's very interesting, um (laughs) , I was asked one time on a podcast what my favorite recovery strategy was. And I think it's interesting that we have an entire cottage industry of recovery strategies that have grown up around this idea of, how do I recover from the training that I'm doing? Well, my answer was proper programming. If I have myself programmed appropriately, if I am taking into account the organism and my overall stress, nutrition, sleep, uh, ability to handle work and the environment, my programming and things of that nature, um, if I've got those two things taken care of, and I have done well with this environmental consideration of, of, uh, the program, then I should be recovering from my training.

Chris Williamson 52:42 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 52:43 I shouldn't be always trying to figure out how I'm going to recover. Probably one of the easiest answers to people who are always trying to figure out how to recover from their training is, uh, do less. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:54 Yeah, you're right. If you're, if you're constantly having to flap your wings so hard to stay afloat, it's probably just time that you need to reassess the program overall, decide that you're gonna just take a little bit more rest time, whatever it might be. And that's, I think, because we are exposed to the work rate of everybody else online with social media and being able to now see, uh, a window into the lives of professional athletes or semi-professional athletes or just, you know, your normal gym athlete who happens to have a ridiculous work capacity. Because you're able to see them, you use the canary in the coal mine for how hard are you working is how hard are they working.

Brett Jones 53:33 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:33 And that can lead to people setting themselves a standard which is unreachable given their physiology. There are some people-

Brett Jones 53:42 Yes.

Chris Williamson 53:42 ... out there whose ability to recover, they can recover fine from a really hard workout on seven hours sleep. There's some people who require, you know, ten. Um, and I guess that's a, a decision you need to make yourself.

Brett Jones 53:54 It is. And, and if you're, if you're mindful of your recovery and your health and, you know, things of that nature, and, and, you know, if you're constantly dealing with a, a, and I mean, quotation marks, "injury," um, you have a pain problem or thing that you're constantly having to manage, you're probably pushing too hard. If your ... you know, if illness is a repeated thing for you, you're probably pushing too hard. Um, and you have to take in overall life stress into consideration. If you're sleeping four hours a night, working two jobs, and you're having a lot of interpersonal stress, yeah, you're not gonna be pushing very hard on your training.

Chris Williamson 54:33 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 54:34 Because your, your recovery ability is already taxed by this lifestyle stress. Um, or if your simple- your diet simply doesn't support, uh, your training, um, then expect to suffer and have trouble recovering, because you-

Chris Williamson 54:50 This classic type A mentality though, isn't it? That there are some people for whom you tell them to do eight and they will do 10. "Well, why did you do 10? I told you to do eight." "Well, I just thought more's better."

Brett Jones 55:01 Right.

Chris Williamson 55:01 And then if you roll that out, if you scale that across someone's entire life-Yeah, you end up with that. So, final question I wanted to ask, and I spoke to Brian Carroll about this, and I thought it was really interesting. I know that Dr. McGill agrees with this, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. For, uh, strength athletes, powerlifter, weightlifter, um, Brian and, uh, Stuart are of the opinion that training the movements once per week is optimal for them to cycle for most athletes. What's your stance on that?

Brett Jones 55:36 (inhales) (sighs) Depends on the athlete. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 55:41 For the broadest cross-section of athletes that you know, what would you say?

Brett Jones 55:45 So, eh, it, it's almost impossible, um, because the, where that athlete is on the spectrum, where that individual is on the spectrum matters.

Chris Williamson 55:55 Mm.

Brett Jones 55:56 Um, if you're reaching a true physiological peak, uh, where, you know, your strength is really based on your structure and anatomy and ability to recover and everything is, is actually reaching a physiological peak, and you're able to push yourself to that limit, then yes, you can train less frequently. But if you look at the Russian powerlifting team, they bench seven days a week.

Chris Williamson 56:21 No way.

Brett Jones 56:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:23 They bench seven days a week?

Brett Jones 56:24 But it's because, it's because they're, and multiple, sometimes multiple sessions in a day. It's because their training is very wavy, and-

Chris Williamson 56:32 Bret, forget the-

Brett Jones 56:32 ... very...

Chris Williamson 56:32 ... forget the wavy stuff. They do bench days every day of the week for the Russians. What's going on?

Brett Jones 56:37 Uh, if you look at Shako, and, and, uh, the, the Russian powerlifting team, uh, they, uh, they do a lot of work.

Chris Williamson 56:48 (laughs)

Brett Jones 56:48 Um, and so there's, there's kind of this classic, uh, American powerlifting, uh, sort of mindset.

Chris Williamson 56:54 Mm.

Brett Jones 56:54 Uh, Ed Coan, uh, Marty Gallagher, uh, Kowalski, um, a lot of classic American powerlifting that is very linear. It is working each main lift once a week. Um, there's the Russian method, uh, which has multiple sessions per week. Both have had their success stories.

Chris Williamson 57:13 Yeah.

Brett Jones 57:13 Um, it's figuring out which one you tolerate and where you are on that spectrum that would dictate those, uh, decisions. If I'm working with a younger, uh, in their progression, if I'm working with a younger physiological age athlete, uh, and that can happen at any age. I could be working with a 50-year-old who's just getting into strength training, and they're at a very young physiological age. Um, that individual, I might want to deadlift five days a week, because I'm building that pattern, and they're still grooving it. Uh, practicing it once a week is not gonna get them to a skill level where they can actually build-

Chris Williamson 57:52 Mm.

Brett Jones 57:52 ... an appreciable level of strength. Um, but yet if that's the 30-year-old athlete who really has been pushing hard and is nearing a physiological peak, yeah, I might be deadlifting them once a week.

Chris Williamson 58:03 Mm.

Brett Jones 58:04 Uh...

Chris Williamson 58:05 I love how, I love how Russian, the Russian approach is. It's like the most, "We, we do bench today, and, and tomorrow."

Brett Jones 58:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:13 Like, every day. (laughs)

Brett Jones 58:13 What do we want to get better at? I want to get better at bench. Guess what we're gonna be doing?

Chris Williamson 58:17 (laughs) Gonna be benching a lot. (laughs)

Brett Jones 58:19 We're gonna be benching. So yeah, it is, uh, it is a very utilitarian, um, uh, minimalist sort of, uh, mindset. And, um, we, we get into muscle confusion and, you know, all of these different things, and, and the pursuit of building strength, um, actually means dedicating yourself to a very narrow, uh, window of things that you're gonna be doing. Now, you look at something like Westside, where Louie Simmons not only had, um, and there's, Westside's very interesting, but they were trying to optimize three lifts. But Louie has like 200 assistance exercises for the bench, because he would spot a weak spot in your bench and had a drill to address that weak spot. So it wasn't variety for variety's sake. It was variety meant to progress you in that main goal, but the goal never changed. The continuity of the training process was always there. Um, and that, you know, strength training means dedicating yourself towards a goal of building strength, uh, and doing that over time, and having this continuity of training process, um, that leads to success.

Chris Williamson 59:37 Isn't it interesting that there's so many different paths to achieving the same goal, that you have Russians competing with Americans stepping onto the same platform within minutes of each other, but some training methodologies that couldn't look more different in some ways? Or-

Brett Jones 59:54 Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 59:54 ... that you have the guys from Westside and the e- the, the equipped leagues who are going up against other people who may never do anything other than big compound lifts. They might, their, their accessory work might be pull-ups, and that's it. Or you know-

Brett Jones 1:00:07 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:00:08 ... (clears throat) i- it's so, I find it fascinating that there are all of these different routes. And it comes back to what we said at the very beginning, right, where it's like you can find s- an, proof for effectiveness or proof for ineffectiveness for pretty much everything. So, at the end of the day, this is a nice way to round it off, I suppose, does the training methodology that you choose come down to personal preference for the one that you can adhere to the, the most and that feels the best for you? And, or, how, how are

Chris Williamson 1:00:38 you supposed to select? I have this myriad of training, uh, opportunities in front of me. How, how do I choose?

Brett Jones 1:00:45 So, I, I think to get started, let's start there. To get started, uh, the basics work. Three to five sets of three to five reps, three to five days a week, um, just to keep it as simple as possible, with, with some variation in, in what you're doing. Uh, that will build strength. And for the beginner, uh, I don't want to say almost any program will work, but almost any program will work, you know, for the beginner.It's when you have built a base of strength and you're trying to specialize and aim yourself in a particular direction, that then the, the, the next training protocol carries more weight. (laughs) Strength training joke. Um, carries more weight in, in how you're gonna, uh, succeed, uh, in that. Uh, keeping in mind health and, and progress, um, you know, as long as you're being mindful of those, then you gotta know when to stop a routine and make a change. You don't want to, uh ... And I know, um, the, the, I've seen it referred to as struggle porn, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:01:52 Mm-hmm.

Brett Jones 1:01:52 ... where there's this message out there that you gotta grind and you're gonna grind and you're gonna grind. And, you know, you put all these hours in and you grind, and, and believe me, I, uh, I've put in the hours and, and, uh, that's not a, a problem for me. But you can grind too far and too deeply and cause yourself problems. You, you don't wanna quit before the process comes to fruition, but you gotta know when the process isn't gonna come to fruition, and you gotta make a change. Um, so kind of a dichotomy there, uh, to, to work with. So, um, figuring out whether you're a high volume or low volume athlete, I think is one of the most important distinctions from a strength training standpoint. And I have friends of mine that can handle a very high number of lifts per month. I am not that person. I am not a, a high volume, uh, trainee. Uh, if I do a high volume routine, it needs to be, um, um, six weeks-

Chris Williamson 1:02:50 Small windows.

Brett Jones 1:02:50 ... to eight weeks and ... Yeah, small windows, and then get away from it, uh, because the, the siren song of volume, uh, becomes a little too strong-

Chris Williamson 1:03:00 Coming for you.

Brett Jones 1:03:01 ... and you overload yourself. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 1:03:03 (laughs) I love it. Brett, thank you so much for today. It's been great. If the listeners want to find out some more info, what have the books been that we've cited today, and where else can they head?

Brett Jones 1:03:14 So if you go to strongfirst.com, uh, you'll find, uh, everything there from the community forum, our articles and, and things of that nature. A lot of information, uh, available there. Um, the book is Quick and the Dead, The Quick and the Dead, um, and has some tremendous information in it. And, uh, you'll, you'll see our barbell, kettlebell and body weight sort of, uh, modalities represented on the website and, uh, and on the forum. So kind of a one-stop shop, a lot of information, uh, to be gained there.

Chris Williamson 1:03:46 I love it. Thank you so much for your time. I'm hoping that we'll make some people a little bit stronger. Any questions that you have, feel free to throw them in the YouTube comments below, uh, and I'll try and hassle Brett if there's a, if there's anything specific that I can't answer myself. But for now, Brett, thank you very much.

Brett Jones 1:04:00 Beautiful. Thank you, sir. It was great to have the opportunity. Outfits. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Outfits.