What Is Strength? | Brett Jones | Modern Wisdom Podcast 112

1. 0:00 – 1:24

   Kettlebell swing power: why patience creates a harder, cleaner rep

   1. BJBrett Jones0:00

      If I were to give one piece of advice ... Well, we'll make it two. Number one is patience. True power means you're patient enough to allow that power to come to fruition. So it means at the top of my swing, and if it's, if it is the Games and you are doing the overhead swing-

   2. CWChris Williamson0:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BJBrett Jones0:20

      ... fine, you got to do what's required for the competition. You have to wait for those arms to reconnect for your, to your ribs before you hinge. Then you have to allow yourself th- the time to hinge before you hit the quick turnaround, and now you got to be patient keeping the arms against the body as long as you can so you have this full transfer of energy from the hips and midsection to the arms and the bell. And so, what I see a lot of people do is they rush that. They hinge too early on the way down, they're trying to come up too quick on the way up-

   4. CWChris Williamson0:54

      Mm.

   5. BJBrett Jones0:55

      ... and they're letting the arms disconnect before they fully express the power from their hips. So if they were to display patience at those three stages, wait long enough for the arms to reconnect on the way down, give yourself time to hinge, and then keep the arms against the ribs as long as possible as you're producing power through the ground, you're gonna find a much more powerful swing and better transfer of energy.

2. 1:24 – 3:53

   What strength is (and why it’s more than lifting)

   1. CWChris Williamson1:24

      I'm joined by Brett Jones, Director of Education at StrongFirst. Brett, welcome to the show.

   2. BJBrett Jones1:31

      Excellent. It's great to be with you today, and really looking forward to speaking with you and your audience.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:35

      Yeah. Me too. We, uh, we haven't touched on strength that much yet. Not in it's, not in its purity. We've, we've circled around it a little bit, but we're talking all things strong today, right?

   4. BJBrett Jones1:45

      Absolutely. Um, there's... Strength has been, uh, it's, um, been a, something I've pursued, uh, for most of my, uh, adult life, uh, in, in various forms, and, uh, I, I look forward to the conversation on it.

   5. CWChris Williamson2:01

      Yeah. It's gonna be good. We'll have some CrossFitters, some powerlifters tuning in, uh, amongst people that just want to be able to lift the shopping a bit, the, the shopping a little bit heavier, I guess, as well, so they might benefit as well. Um-

   6. BJBrett Jones2:12

      Absolutely.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:13

      Talking about strength, how do you, as someone who spends his entire time thinking about strength, how do you define strength?

   8. BJBrett Jones2:20

      So strength can be ... So if we first go with this, uh, this idea of physical strength, um, that can be your ability to produce tension, your ability to produce force against an outside object, or to manipulate your own body, um, g- against a given leverage or position. So it's the ability to produce tension, to produce force against an object, um, and manipulate an object or your own body, uh, like I said. So that, that's kind of the, the 30,000-foot view. Um, when you, d- if you get into the mechanics of it, there's obviously a lot more going on.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:00

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BJBrett Jones3:01

       Uh, when you go beyond physical strength, and that's, you know ... Within StrongFirst, one of our, uh ... We, we have, actually have like a code of conduct. Uh, we're students of strength, uh, we're quiet professionals, and we believe that strength has a greater purpose. And the, the mission of StrongFirst is to pursue, promote, and practice strength because we believe strength has a greater purpose. And that greater purpose obviously, uh, transcends physical strength into many other areas. Uh, my grandmother is one of the strongest people that I know of on the planet, and she's never lifted a weight in her life.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:35

       (laughs)

   12. BJBrett Jones3:35

       And so, we're not just referring to this concept of physical strength. We do believe that building physical strength can provide a window into, uh, greater strength in one's life, uh, in many areas-

   13. CWChris Williamson3:51

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BJBrett Jones3:51

       ... not just the physical.

3. 3:53 – 5:05

   Strength as the “master quality”: the foundation for other physical traits

   1. CWChris Williamson3:53

      I understand. So yeah, you've, you've touched on one of the, the two, uh, taglines, I suppose, or one of the, the two major elements that StrongFirst does, which is strength has a greater purpose and strength is the master quality. That right?

   2. BJBrett Jones4:07

      Yes. So if you look at, uh ... Matveev said, uh, that, uh, strength is a foundation of physical development, um, str- for the, uh, for all, uh, qualities of, of physical development. So, uh, I, I remember being in a talk with, uh, Eric Cressey years ago and, you know, Eric, uh, gave a great analogy. People have tried to give me credit for it, so every time I get an opportunity I give him credit for it-

   3. CWChris Williamson4:35

      Great.

   4. BJBrett Jones4:35

      ... 'cause it's where I heard it. Uh, but basically he said, you know, uh, strength is the glass. Every other quality you want to develop goes in that glass. And so the bigger your glass, the more of those other qualities you can develop. And so strength maintains, um, a, uh, a focus and, and a foundation for, uh, people's training. And it's interesting right now as, as physical training has become more ... I'm gonna go old school

4. 5:05 – 7:41

   When fitness becomes the goal: ancient training pillars vs modern ‘fitness for fitness’

   1. BJBrett Jones5:05

      here for just a second. So if you look at some of the ancient training systems, and I'm drawing back to the Greeks and the German Turnverein system and, uh, some of the, some of the other old training systems which primarily came from training military and, and, uh, and warriors and, and things of that nature. Uh, they really had three main components to them. There was a martial component, uh, which was your ability to respond appropriately to aggression, and you could easily look at that from a martial arts or military perspective, and that makes v- very good sense. There was a restorative component because learning the martial tended to knock you out of center, and so you needed techniques for health and recovery and-

   2. CWChris Williamson5:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BJBrett Jones5:48

      ... regeneration to be able to go do the other stuff again. And then you had a pedagogical body of knowledge that, uh, supported the other two. Fitness has become our martial art. Fitness has become the thing ... So our pillars of training have switched.... to where now our training, our fitness has become this, uh, thing that we do, uh, for itself. Uh, whereas we used to get fit to go do other things. You know, the restorative component in the ancient systems was meant to just allow you to go practice the martial stuff more.

   4. CWChris Williamson6:24

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BJBrett Jones6:24

      Um, I'm a very exciting guy. I enjoy hiking. So my- (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson6:28

      (laughs)

   7. BJBrett Jones6:28

      ... my training at this point supports my hiking.

   8. CWChris Williamson6:31

      (laughs)

   9. BJBrett Jones6:31

      And- and n- not in addition to my own training and training of my students and the teaching that I do at CERTS and things of that nature. Um, so since fitness has become this martial art, this thing, uh, in and of itself, um, that- that's changed some of our, uh, relationships with- with some of these modalities, strength training being one of them. Um, within a competitive environment, within an environment where people are using, uh, fitness as this display, um, of what they've accomplished, um, then you start using the tools of barbells and body weights and things like that for either higher repetitions or for conditioning-

   10. CWChris Williamson7:19

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BJBrett Jones7:19

       ... or for, you know, these other aspects of physical development, and the strength training kind of gets- can get lost a little bit.

   12. CWChris Williamson7:27

       That's interesting that fitness is now for fitness' sake, rather than in service-

   13. BJBrett Jones7:32

       Yes.

   14. CWChris Williamson7:32

       ... of another purpose. That is a- that is-

   15. BJBrett Jones7:35

       Yes.

   16. CWChris Williamson7:35

       ... uh, uh, an interesting way to frame it. Going back to one of the things that you said at the beginning about strength being the cup and everything else filling it-

   17. BJBrett Jones7:41

       Mm-hmm.

5. 7:41 – 12:15

   How strength improves endurance: motor units, efficiency, and “strength as a skill”

   1. CWChris Williamson7:41

      ... would you be able to explain how you would see something most people probably wouldn't, uh, link with strength, like endurance capacity, perhaps? How- how do those two link together?

   2. BJBrett Jones7:52

      So, uh, one of the easiest examples that I can give is if- if it takes you-

   3. CWChris Williamson7:58

      (sniffs)

   4. BJBrett Jones7:58

      ... at this point, 1,000 motor units to accomplish some movement, and that could be a whatever you want it to be, and we're just talking in very broad strokes and generalities, right? So we're just gonna say-

   5. CWChris Williamson8:10

      Let's stick to- let's stick to deadlift. Everyone knows the deadlift. Let's talk about that.

   6. BJBrett Jones8:13

      Okay. So let's say for the deadlift you have to recruit, uh, at this point, 1,000 motor units to accomplish that movement. If I increase your strength, your neural efficiency, your recruitment, your, um, your structural ability, uh, your ability to produce tension, uh, and that- that efficiency, because we- we do look at strength as a skill. Um, you know, people- uh, very few people look at somebody shooting free throws and go, "Wow, he's a really good free throw shooter, but he just has good technique." Um, they just say he's a good free throw shooter.

   7. CWChris Williamson8:48

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BJBrett Jones8:48

      Um, within strength training, there- there can be the excuse, "Well, he's not that strong. He or she isn't that strong, they- they just have good technique." Like, but strength is a skill.

   9. CWChris Williamson8:58

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BJBrett Jones8:59

       And there are, we'll talk about it more later, but, you know, there's- there's, uh, people that spend lives, 20, 30, 40 year careers trying to get better at one or two or three exercises.

   11. CWChris Williamson9:09

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BJBrett Jones9:10

       So it's not, uh, it- it is- it is a lifelong pursuit. Um, so let's say due to our training and everything, I take that 1,000 motor unit requirement, and I drop it to 500.

   13. CWChris Williamson9:23

       How would you do that?

   14. BJBrett Jones9:25

       Uh, via good strength training. So-

   15. CWChris Williamson9:27

       So you become more efficient?

   16. BJBrett Jones9:28

       ... broad strokes. You become- well, yes, because if neural efficiency increases, if my ability to recruit, and we're gonna sound like, I'm gonna sound manic here for just a second, but let's take a little side journey. Uh, we refer to being a strength professional, and when you look at, uh, let's use the bench press as an example. When you look at a strength professional on the bench press, and they- they've actually done this with some EMGs and looking at e- this efficient transfer between muscle groups, uh, during something like the bench press. When a strength professional gets wedged in and they begin their bench press, there's this really smooth transition from lats to pecs to str- to shoulders to triceps. And it's like being in a Formula One race car, right? Vroom, vroom, vroom, vroom. You don't even feel the gears change. You just go faster.

   17. CWChris Williamson10:21

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BJBrett Jones10:23

       Compare that to somebody who's learning how to drive a stick, right? You're gonna get- you're gonna get wep- whiplash and- and damage your neck because, you know, they're (imitates engine revving) , you know, they're shifting gears, and it's- it's really herky-jerky.

   19. CWChris Williamson10:36

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BJBrett Jones10:36

       And you see that in somebody who's a novice at the bench press. They'll bring it down. If they don't bounce it, then they'll bring it down, and then there's this big push, and there's nothing coming behind it.

   21. CWChris Williamson10:48

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BJBrett Jones10:48

       So it- it fails and comes back down, or it- it fails and then the second muscle group kicks in, or, you know, however you want to phrase it. And so the- the strength professional has learned how to have these really smooth transitions throughout a range of motion, displaying producing force against an object or whatever. Um, so, yeah, that efficiency, um, leads to the ability to have greater tension, greater efficiency throughout the movement, so I am kind of staying away from some of the, um, mechanical properties at the moment-

   23. CWChris Williamson11:26

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BJBrett Jones11:26

       ... and referring more to the neurological. Um, so through good strength training, I make you more efficient, and now I get to the point that as a result of increased, uh, better recruitment, better efficiency, um, potentially better quality of the tissue, um, now that 1,000 motor unit effort is a 500 motor unit effort.

   25. CWChris Williamson11:47

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BJBrett Jones11:48

       How many more times are you gonna be able to produce that 500 motor unit effort? Because now you have 500 motor units in reserve.

   27. CWChris Williamson11:55

       Okay.

   28. BJBrett Jones11:56

       So as those initial 500 fatigue, you just start tapping into the 500 we now have in reserve, and your endurance has increased, uh, by means of increasing your strength.

   29. CWChris Williamson12:08

       Mm-hmm. So the work capacity's gone up because it's less effortful to achieve the same movement?

   30. BJBrett Jones12:15

       Yes.

6. 12:15 – 15:44

   Components of strength: neurological skill, structural adaptation, and the ‘black box’

   1. CWChris Williamson12:15

      Okay. That's interesting. So, we, we've kind of circled around it for a little bit. How, how do you, uh, contextualize strength, or what are the components of strength?

   2. BJBrett Jones12:26

      Wow. That's, uh, that's a, a, a broad, uh, topic.

   3. CWChris Williamson12:30

      Fair point. Fair point indeed.

   4. BJBrett Jones12:32

      So, (laughs) um, 'cause if, if we're sticking with the physical-

   5. CWChris Williamson12:37

      Mm-hmm. Yes.

   6. BJBrett Jones12:38

      ... then, um, there is, uh, so let's break that into the neurological, uh, which is the patterning, uh, the efficiency between muscle groups, and really, you know, having, uh, a really high level of skill in that movement. And when you dive down and you really dig into something like a deadlift or a bench press or a squat or a clean and jerk, or whatever you want to dig into, um, a one-arm pushup, uh, whatever the case may be-

   7. CWChris Williamson13:08

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BJBrett Jones13:10

      ... um, that neurological aspect, um, your ability to bring, uh, your intraabdominal tension, your high tension techniques, your efficiency, uh, transitioning through the muscle groups, that neurological aspect is, is really key. And, uh, that means, uh, one of our key programming principles is we, we keep a continuity of the training process. So, if I'm going to look towards building strength, I'm going to be doing the same exercises for a, a g- a good period of time-

   9. CWChris Williamson13:43

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BJBrett Jones13:43

       ... to allow time for this learning and efficiency and gaining of skill. If I'm switching exercises every four weeks, um, I, I doubt there's been a successful Olympic lifter, uh, that has changed exercises every four weeks.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:57

       (laughs)

   12. BJBrett Jones13:58

       Um, they may be modifying their routine within the context of, of t- trying to optimize the clean and jerk and the snatch-

   13. CWChris Williamson14:04

       Hmm.

   14. BJBrett Jones14:05

       ... uh, but they're going to work on the clean and jerk and the snatch-

   15. CWChris Williamson14:07

       Hmm.

   16. BJBrett Jones14:07

       ... um, and then highlight areas that need attention. So this continuity of the training process is going to stick with us. So from a neurological standpoint, we're really focused on this, uh, concept of strength as a skill and s- uh, practicing and pursuing our strength over time-

   17. CWChris Williamson14:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BJBrett Jones14:23

       ... uh, via the continuity. From a more structural standpoint, now we're talking about the tissue quality, and, uh, there's all of these things that happen within a muscle, uh, that produce movement. Uh, you can go down to the, the, um, the muscle fibers and, and look at the crossbridges and actin and myosin and, uh, myokinase, and, and you've got, uh, the calcium going in and out. You, you know, you have this really, um, complicated physiological thing, um, and of course the energy to do that via the ATP and the mitochondrion, um, uh, all of these things. So there's, there's, there's these two, uh... I prefer to treat the physiological aspect as kind of a black box (laughs) where we do things and we get a response, and I don't necessarily need to understand all of the details that's happening in the black box.

   19. CWChris Williamson15:13

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BJBrett Jones15:14

       Um, and actually from a computer standpoint, there's a lot of, uh, artificial intelligence algorithms and things like that that are basically treated like a black box. They actually don't understand what's happening inside the AI box-

   21. CWChris Williamson15:25

       Hmm.

   22. BJBrett Jones15:26

       ... but we get results-

   23. CWChris Williamson15:28

       So the in-

   24. BJBrett Jones15:28

       ... that come out the other side.

   25. CWChris Williamson15:28

       ... the, the input's controlled, the output is what you want, and the process in the middle, it doesn't really matter so much, I don't suppose, as long as the output is what you wanted.

   26. BJBrett Jones15:39

       Yes.

   27. CWChris Williamson15:39

       I like it.

   28. BJBrett Jones15:40

       So we, we, we get kind of bogged down into the physiology because it's fascinating.

   29. CWChris Williamson15:44

       Mm-hmm.

7. 15:44 – 18:16

   Relaxation is a strength skill: tension–relaxation balance and performance

   1. BJBrett Jones15:44

      I mean, you talk about the... One of the things that, that we work on is this balance of tension and relaxation. And so it sounds weird for a guy that's all about strength to be talking about relaxation, but if you're not able to relax, you can never fully bring your strength to bear.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:00

      Hmm.

   3. BJBrett Jones16:01

      And from an athletic standpoint, if I'm walking around half tight all the time, I'm neither efficient or fast or powerful, so I have to be able to relax. Well, relaxation actually takes more energy in the muscle than contraction.

   4. CWChris Williamson16:17

      Is that true?

   5. BJBrett Jones16:17

      Because now you have to... Yeah, you have to pump out the calcium that gave you the crossbridges and the, and the contraction. Now you've got to pump that out in order to create the relaxation. And so there's this, um, there's this balance to be achieved, and, uh, your skill at relaxation can enhance your strength and your ability to produce power and, and force and things of that nature.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:41

      Interesting.

   7. BJBrett Jones16:41

      So... But that's complicated. Like, there's a lot going on in there, and I'm, I'm, uh, just a good old knuckle dragger. I like, uh, I like, you know, lifting and doing the fun stuff. And, um, while I have gone down some of the rabbit holes of the, the complexity, um, you can still read the research and see how conflicted we still are-

   8. CWChris Williamson17:04

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BJBrett Jones17:04

      ... on things like hypertrophy-

   10. CWChris Williamson17:06

       Hmm.

   11. BJBrett Jones17:06

       ... and, uh, other aspects of muscle development. Um, so there's, there's a lot going on there. Um, so I just kind of treat that as a black box.

   12. CWChris Williamson17:14

       (laughs)

   13. BJBrett Jones17:14

       And like you said, the input, the output, and the magic happens in the black box.

   14. CWChris Williamson17:18

       In the middle. Yeah.

   15. BJBrett Jones17:18

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson17:19

       I, I, uh, honestly, one of the problems that I found when I was a young guy and learning about lifting and, and stuff, so I'm going back to probably 2007, which is, like, bodybuilding.com days, like, quite heavily forum based, um, and it was so bro sciencey-

   17. BJBrett Jones17:35

       (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson17:36

       ... uh, and for every, for every article that you read that said one thing, you could find one that said the opposite. And the same is still true now. Like, for every person f- for whom keto works amazingly, there's another person for whom high carb works amazingly, and then someone will do intermittent fasting, and someone will stick to a, a more consistent, steady grazing style, um, sort of typical bodybuilder's, uh, diet. And you know, it, it really is a case of trying to find the principles, I suppose, and moving those forward. Um, so I've got a couple of questions. I've got one, one question for you, which will come up in a little bit, which I think might be like you trying to choose your favorite child. Um, but-

   19. BJBrett Jones18:14

       (laughs)

8. 18:16 – 23:19

   Is progressive overload king? Yes—but progress is wavy, not linear

   1. CWChris Williamson18:16

      ... um, for now, when we're talking about strength, is progressive overload king?

   2. BJBrett Jones18:23

      Yes. However, um-

   3. CWChris Williamson18:26

      (laughs) There's always a caveat.

   4. BJBrett Jones18:27

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson18:27

      Brett, there's always-- there's always a bloody caveat, isn't there?

   6. BJBrett Jones18:30

      I, I know, and it's, it'd be, it ... Life would be much simpler if, if we were able to just give absolutes, but, uh, only Siths, uh, deal in absolutes. So, um, we'll, uh, we'll stick with, uh, the, the asterisks and the caveat. Yes, progressive overload is the key, but, uh, I ... Within the, within StrongFirst, which, uh, are, we call ourselves the School of Strength, uh, we specialize in kettlebell, barbell, and body weight, uh, not only from a tactical standpoint, but from a programming standpoint. And Pavel's recent work within PlanStrong and Strong Endurance, uh, in particular, has, uh, with his new book, Quick and the Dead, you can get a window into some of our new conditioning and strength and, um, uh, conditioning, um, research and, and work that we've been doing. Um, the fourth branch of the School of Strength is programming, and in the development of PlanStrong, when Pavel took a step back and he looked at, uh, the most successful Olympic lifting dominance, uh, of the Russians, and you can make all the comments you want about, uh, the pharmaceuticals that may have been involved, but everybody was doing it, and the Russians were still dominant.

   7. CWChris Williamson19:46

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   8. BJBrett Jones19:47

      And not only were they dominant, they were dominant over years.

   9. CWChris Williamson19:50

      Yeah.

   10. BJBrett Jones19:51

       Uh, Olympic lifting is not considered a ... It's a young person's sport, right?

   11. CWChris Williamson19:55

       (laughs)

   12. BJBrett Jones19:55

       Well, they had Russians setting world records in their 30s and late into their 30s-

   13. CWChris Williamson20:00

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BJBrett Jones20:01

       ... and still winning world records or world, uh, championships and Olympics and things like that. Um, so when you really look at their programming, yes, it's progressive over time, but we trended, we tend to treat that as this linear relationship-

   15. CWChris Williamson20:17

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BJBrett Jones20:18

       ... where we're always going up. When you look at a very successful program, like the Russians had, uh, what you see is that.

   17. CWChris Williamson20:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BJBrett Jones20:30

       There's a lot of variability. And actually, about 80% of their work happened around 70% of their 1RM. So there was a tremendous amount of work happening at a very accessible, uh, effort level.

   19. CWChris Williamson20:45

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BJBrett Jones20:46

       Which you can recover from, and you can build skill with, and you can, uh, have all of these great, uh, results. And then you're, you're doing some work in the top end, um, little bit below that, but a, about 75%, 80% of their work happened in this, um, about 70% 1RM, uh, sort of area.

   21. CWChris Williamson21:05

       What's a, what's a-

   22. BJBrett Jones21:05

       Um-

   23. CWChris Williamson21:05

       ... rep range on that, if you were to go to failure? Probably about six?

   24. BJBrett Jones21:10

       And ... Yes, but here's the thing. We're never going to failure.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:14

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BJBrett Jones21:15

       So yeah, 70% might get you, uh, six to eight, and there's a tremendous variability in how people line up on those rep charts.

   27. CWChris Williamson21:25

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BJBrett Jones21:26

       Um, I was always able to operate actually at a pretty high percentage of my 1RM, um, but then if you looked at the charts, I should have been lifting way more. (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson21:35

       Yeah, that's- that's me. That's me, unfortunately. Can rep out-

   30. BJBrett Jones21:38

       Yeah.
9. 23:19 – 28:01

   Only three exercises forever: selecting squat/deadlift, press, and a pull

   1. CWChris Williamson23:19

      Mm-hmm. I suppose that cycling through different movements, as you said as well, and sticking to maybe two months with one particular routine or three months with one particular routine and then periodizing into something else will probably allow you to, to achieve that as well. So, right. I'm gonna, Brett, I'm gonna ask you the, the most difficult question that I can ask you. Um, you're only allowed to do three exercises for the rest of your life.

   2. BJBrett Jones23:41

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson23:42

      What are they?

   4. BJBrett Jones23:44

      So, uh, yeah, you're right. It's like, uh, choosing, choosing children. Um, so I'll give two different answers. Um-

   5. CWChris Williamson23:53

      (laughs) That is such a-

   6. BJBrett Jones23:55

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson23:55

      ... such a politician's answer.

   8. BJBrett Jones23:58

      But I told you what I was gonna do.

   9. CWChris Williamson23:59

      Fair enough. Fair enough.

   10. BJBrett Jones24:00

       I didn't, I didn't, I didn't dodge the question.

   11. CWChris Williamson24:01

       Okay. Okay.

   12. BJBrett Jones24:02

       I just said I was gonna give you two options.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:03

       All right.

   14. BJBrett Jones24:05

       For me personally-

   15. CWChris Williamson24:06

       Yes.

   16. BJBrett Jones24:06

       ... um, I am a squataholic. I love to barbell squat. Um, because I do a lot of swings and a lot of kettlebell work, I don't have to do as much work on my deadlift-

   17. CWChris Williamson24:23

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BJBrett Jones24:23

       ... because I, I do a powerful hip hinge on a consistent basis. So-... I personally like to squat.

   19. CWChris Williamson24:31

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BJBrett Jones24:32

       And I think for the individual, it's finding which are you. Do you need to squat? Do you need to deadlift?

   21. CWChris Williamson24:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BJBrett Jones24:38

       Uh, because both of those are gonna give you mileage for a long time.

   23. CWChris Williamson24:42

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BJBrett Jones24:43

       If you're not swinging and working on a powerful hip hinge, then you probably need to be deadlifting instead of squatting.

   25. CWChris Williamson24:49

       Hmm. Interesting.

   26. BJBrett Jones24:51

       If that makes sense.

   27. CWChris Williamson24:52

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. It does. Why, why would you put the-

   28. BJBrett Jones24:56

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson24:56

       ... deadlift ahead of the squat in isolation?

   30. BJBrett Jones25:00

       Um, it is... So there's a couple... And I'm putting it ahead of that because if I'm swinging-
10. 28:01 – 32:20

    Why kettlebells matter: offset load, alignment under load, and power benefits

    1. CWChris Williamson28:01

       Mm-hmm. I get it. Well, one thing that I'm interested in is your inclusion of kettlebells, because it's only been recently for me that I've seen, uh, kettlebells really kind of come into their own. Guys like yourselves, uh, and Onnit, um, uh, and companies that are really, really pushing the, the sort of kettlebell movements, not just as... 'Cause kettlebells maybe, for me, 10, 10 years ago would have been part of a Bums and Tums class for, like, my mum to go and do. You know what I mean?

    2. BJBrett Jones28:37

       (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson28:37

       Maybe like a two and a half kilo kettlebell or something like that, and it's kind of just there to make someone feel like they're lifting a weight. Whereas now, there's much more sophisticated, um, public knowledge about, around the training for that. Can you talk, talk us through your, your vision and your views on, on kettlebell training overall?

    4. BJBrett Jones28:56

       Absolutely. Um, it's something that I've been... I first got, um, certified, uh, with Pavel, uh, in February of '02. Um-

    5. CWChris Williamson29:07

       Wow.

    6. BJBrett Jones29:07

       I started teaching with Pavel in, in April of '03. So literally for 16, almost 17 years I've been traveling, uh, the US and the world teaching kettlebell training and, and certifying others in, in the use of the tool. Um, so the kettlebell for me represents such an excellent entry point to the world of strength and a bridge towards the world of conditioning and power work, uh, that make it a really unique and, and really a tool that I think belongs in everybody's program. And "everybody" in quotation marks, caveat, um, 'cause that's, you know, no, no, no one thing for all people.

    7. CWChris Williamson29:46

       Yeah, yeah.

    8. BJBrett Jones29:47

       So, um, I think the thick handle and offset center of mass make it a very different and alive tool in your hands, where now you're controlling this rotation or movement of the center, displaced center of mass, or that displaced center of mass is actually guiding you into better positions during the movement. It... So it requires, uh, a, a, a increased level of alignment with integrity under load. And I'm grabbing that from Gray Cook, one of my other mentors. And, uh, so via the get-up and the press and things like that that take advantage of this offset center of mass, uh, you have this alignment with integrity under load, which builds this kind of great postural control, which helps set the foundation for a lot of the strength and the power work that you want to be doing.And so, the kettlebell, in my mind and what I've seen over the- the last, you know, um, 17, 18 years of using the tool myself, um, I- I- I think it, uh, it really fits a need for people that a dumbbell, a barbell, uh, kind of don't provide-

    9. CWChris Williamson30:56

       Mm-hmm.

    10. BJBrett Jones30:56

        ... because that- that weight centers with your, uh, grip, instead of being offset. Uh, an old joke for us is you, uh, can't swing a barbell between your legs, uh, more than once.

    11. CWChris Williamson31:10

        (laughs)

    12. BJBrett Jones31:10

        And so, the- the (laughs) the kettlebell allows you to achieve this really unique loaded eccentric position, which has tremendous carryover for anything athletic. And, uh, from a power standpoint, um, I think Zatziorski and- and- and others would put it in a power metric, um- um, category, not plyometric, but it still produces, um ... I can produce three, three and a half times body weight eccentric load at the bottom of a 24-kilo-

    13. CWChris Williamson31:41

        Hmm.

    14. BJBrett Jones31:42

        ... uh, kettlebell swing.

    15. CWChris Williamson31:43

        Because it's so dynamic, right?

    16. BJBrett Jones31:45

        Exactly. And that loaded eccentric really is unique. So I- I think kettlebells fulfill, uh, check a lot of boxes. And you'll see this if you look at Quick and the Dead, um, once you've built a base of strength, power training has a lot to offer, and you have to be strong enough to be powerful.

    17. CWChris Williamson32:04

        Mm-hmm.

    18. BJBrett Jones32:04

        And so we're still not forgetting that strength is the foundation. But once you have achieved a base level of strength, that power work really delivers across multiple spectrums of, uh, physical development, whether we're talking about endurance, power, strength. And so-

11. 32:20 – 40:16

    Power vs strength, then swing mechanics for CrossFit: patience and breathing

    1. CWChris Williamson32:20

       What's- what's the difference between power and strength?

    2. BJBrett Jones32:23

       So, um, power is how quickly you can apply your strength.

    3. CWChris Williamson32:29

       Okay. Yep.

    4. BJBrett Jones32:29

       Strength is how much force you can produce.

    5. CWChris Williamson32:31

       So, it'd be the equivalent of, uh, horsepower versus torque.

    6. BJBrett Jones32:36

       Yes. I- I'd ... I- I'll go with that, uh, analogy-

    7. CWChris Williamson32:39

       (laughs) Yeah.

    8. BJBrett Jones32:39

       ... very e- very easily.

    9. CWChris Williamson32:40

       That ... Yeah.

    10. BJBrett Jones32:40

        Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson32:40

        Like a torquey- a torquey engine might not be quite so fast, but can pull a very heavy load. A high brick horsepower engine can go very quickly, but might not be able to pull such a heavy thing.

    12. BJBrett Jones32:50

        Yes.

    13. CWChris Williamson32:50

        And then in between the two, you have a- a midpoint. Okay. Okay.

    14. BJBrett Jones32:55

        Yes.

    15. CWChris Williamson32:55

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we will have a lot of CrossFitters and other strength athletes listening, but CrossFitters especially, we're about to enter the open, which is a period-

    16. BJBrett Jones33:03

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson33:03

        ... during which, uh, there will inevitably be kettlebell swings. Would you be able to-

    18. BJBrett Jones33:09

        Sure.

    19. CWChris Williamson33:09

        ... talk us through how you see the optimal kettlebell swing, or what the- (clicking)

    20. BJBrett Jones33:14

        ... some of the coaching cues are that you look for that you think most people might- might mess up with?

    21. CWChris Williamson33:19

        I think, um, if- if I were to give, um, one piece of advice ... Uh, well, we'll make it two. (laughs) Uh, number one is patience. True power means you're patient enough to allow that power to come to fruition. So, it means at the top of my swing, and if it's- if it is the games, and you are doing the overhead swing-

    22. BJBrett Jones33:50

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson33:51

        ... fine, you got to do what's required for the competition.

    24. BJBrett Jones33:53

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson33:54

        Um, it's waiting for those arms to re- ... (laughs) I'm gonna just p- pull my, uh- Stabilize things. Yeah, yeah.

    26. BJBrett Jones33:59

        ... camera off the ... Yeah. Um, you have to wait for those arms to reconnect for your- to your ribs before you hinge. Then you have to allow yourself t- the time to hinge before you hit the quick turnaround. And now you got to be patient keeping the arms against the body as long as you can, so you have this full transfer of energy from the hips and midsection to the arms and the bell. And so, what I see a lot of people do is they rush that. They hinge too early on the way down. They're trying to come up too quick on the way up-

    27. CWChris Williamson34:34

        Hmm.

    28. BJBrett Jones34:34

        ... and they're letting the arms disconnect before they've fully expressed the power from their hips. So, if they were to display patience at those three stages, wait long enough for the arms to reconnect on the way down, give yourself time to hinge, and then keep the arms against the ribs as long as possible as you're producing power through the ground, you're gonna find a much more powerful swing and better transfer of energy. Um, so that more than anything, if people would display some patience, um, they're gonna be- they're gonna be a lot better off. Uh-

    29. CWChris Williamson35:13

        I can definitely feel in myself when I'm doing a heavy kettlebell workout, uh, especially when we- we are going, uh, to the overhead standard from CrossFit. Um, I can tell when that excitement during a workout takes over my form. Uh, and I know that when that's happening because my traps get pumped.

    30. BJBrett Jones35:32

        Yeah.
12. 40:16 – 55:01

    Training vs testing: managing fatigue, rest, and self-coaching stop signs

    1. BJBrett Jones40:16

       Definitely. And- and that would lead into a, um, a potentially another podcast (laughs) on the concept of the difference between your training and your testing.

    2. CWChris Williamson40:25

       Mm-hmm.

    3. BJBrett Jones40:25

       And the fact that your- your training does not always have to look like your testing.

    4. CWChris Williamson40:30

       Hmm.

    5. BJBrett Jones40:30

       And, uh, you build capacity, uh, and minimize fatigue rather than always trying to... 'Cause conditioning, uh, and I know we're getting away from the strength message, but the conditioning has kind of fallen into, uh, the primary camp that conditioning has fallen into is building tolerance. Basically, this is gonna suck, so we're gonna do it, and over time, it will suck less-

    6. CWChris Williamson40:57

       Mm-hmm.

    7. BJBrett Jones40:57

       ... because you are, have better tolerance to this.

    8. CWChris Williamson40:59

       Mm-hmm.

    9. BJBrett Jones41:00

       Um, there is another way in- in building capacity, your ability to handle the energy production and the byproducts and the- the- the- the efficiency of the- of the- of the organism versus the tolerance of the organism. And so if when... And again, you look at Quick and the Dead and- and Pavel's new stuff, you'll see a lot on this. Um, you can build a lot of capacity and hav- (clears throat) have better health, kind of lower injury, better performance, and test better. But if you're always testing yourself and you're burning that candle hard, it's like having, uh, NOS, it's like having nitric oxide on your car-

    10. CWChris Williamson41:40

        Mm-hmm.

    11. BJBrett Jones41:40

        ... well, if you're using that to go pick up a loaf of bread, um, you're gonna burn out your car. You want to save that for that one moment where you need that extra boost.

    12. CWChris Williamson41:50

        Is that where the 70% or so window appears to be optimal? Is that one of the reasons why that will be in there as well?

    13. BJBrett Jones42:01

        It is. It is.

    14. CWChris Williamson42:03

        It's interesting 'cause a- again, I'm around a lot of CrossFitters, um, but I'm just around a lot of athletes who like to go hard as well-

    15. BJBrett Jones42:10

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson42:10

        ... whatever their particular given field. There- there is a- a subgroup, um, that train in our gym who are just sadists.

    17. BJBrett Jones42:19

        (laughs)

    18. CWChris Williamson42:19

        And they enjoy, they enjoy getting into that 190 BPM heart range. Like, that's- that's what they live for. And, uh, you know, it is, it is very unique in the fitness world, based on what I know, having spoken to guys like Dr. McGill, um, Brian Carroll as well-

    19. BJBrett Jones42:41

        (clears throat)

    20. CWChris Williamson42:41

        ... these sorts of guys who talk about, uh, embedding the movement engrams in as- as perfect a way as possible, especially if we're talking about, you know, big lifts that need to be perfect, um, and doing those under fatigue appears to be a very, very dangerous way to train.

    21. BJBrett Jones43:00

        Uh, yes. I, I would, I would agree with that. Um, and I, and I think that, uh, well, there's one reason we prefer something like the kettlebell swing, kettlebell snatch as our display of, um, uh, uh, maintaining our, our, um, skill over time under fatigue.

    22. CWChris Williamson43:18

        Mm. Mm-hmm.

    23. BJBrett Jones43:18

        'Cause there's, there's different ways to look at this, and as we're building, f- pardon me, as we're building these patterns, I have to load you to find out if that pattern's gonna hold up under the load. And then I need to, if, especially if I'm training an athlete or, or, or somebody, uh, I'm gonna have to push you into some fatigue to see if that pattern's gonna hold up under the fatigue. And it's my job as a coach to know when to pull back-

    24. CWChris Williamson43:45

        Mm-hmm.

    25. BJBrett Jones43:45

        ... because you're not handling the, the fatigue, uh, in the form or the load in the form. And so that's where my skill comes in to say, "No, that's enough for today," or, "Yes, you can push, go a little further." Um, so definitely-

    26. CWChris Williamson44:00

        Can you-

    27. BJBrett Jones44:00

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson44:00

        ... can you suggest any, uh, heuristics or rules that people who don't have a coach that's on hand can use?

    29. BJBrett Jones44:08

        So it's re- I, I would, uh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna couch this in a couple of different ways. Uh, I would say that rest is the single most abused training variable.

    30. CWChris Williamson44:20

        Hm.
13. 55:01 – 1:00:38

    How often to train the big lifts: weekly vs high frequency depends on the athlete

    1. CWChris Williamson55:01

       And then if you roll that out, if you scale that across someone's entire life-Yeah, you end up with that. So, final question I wanted to ask, and I spoke to Brian Carroll about this, and I thought it was really interesting. I know that Dr. McGill agrees with this, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts. For, uh, strength athletes, powerlifter, weightlifter, um, Brian and, uh, Stuart are of the opinion that training the movements once per week is optimal for them to cycle for most athletes. What's your stance on that?

    2. BJBrett Jones55:36

       (inhales) (sighs) Depends on the athlete. (laughs)

    3. CWChris Williamson55:41

       For the broadest cross-section of athletes that you know, what would you say?

    4. BJBrett Jones55:45

       So, eh, it, it's almost impossible, um, because the, where that athlete is on the spectrum, where that individual is on the spectrum matters.

    5. CWChris Williamson55:55

       Mm.

    6. BJBrett Jones55:56

       Um, if you're reaching a true physiological peak, uh, where, you know, your strength is really based on your structure and anatomy and ability to recover and everything is, is actually reaching a physiological peak, and you're able to push yourself to that limit, then yes, you can train less frequently. But if you look at the Russian powerlifting team, they bench seven days a week.

    7. CWChris Williamson56:21

       No way.

    8. BJBrett Jones56:22

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson56:23

       They bench seven days a week?

    10. BJBrett Jones56:24

        But it's because, it's because they're, and multiple, sometimes multiple sessions in a day. It's because their training is very wavy, and-

    11. CWChris Williamson56:32

        Bret, forget the-

    12. BJBrett Jones56:32

        ... very...

    13. CWChris Williamson56:32

        ... forget the wavy stuff. They do bench days every day of the week for the Russians. What's going on?

    14. BJBrett Jones56:37

        Uh, if you look at Shako, and, and, uh, the, the Russian powerlifting team, uh, they, uh, they do a lot of work.

    15. CWChris Williamson56:48

        (laughs)

    16. BJBrett Jones56:48

        Um, and so there's, there's kind of this classic, uh, American powerlifting, uh, sort of mindset.

    17. CWChris Williamson56:54

        Mm.

    18. BJBrett Jones56:54

        Uh, Ed Coan, uh, Marty Gallagher, uh, Kowalski, um, a lot of classic American powerlifting that is very linear. It is working each main lift once a week. Um, there's the Russian method, uh, which has multiple sessions per week. Both have had their success stories.

    19. CWChris Williamson57:13

        Yeah.

    20. BJBrett Jones57:13

        Um, it's figuring out which one you tolerate and where you are on that spectrum that would dictate those, uh, decisions. If I'm working with a younger, uh, in their progression, if I'm working with a younger physiological age athlete, uh, and that can happen at any age. I could be working with a 50-year-old who's just getting into strength training, and they're at a very young physiological age. Um, that individual, I might want to deadlift five days a week, because I'm building that pattern, and they're still grooving it. Uh, practicing it once a week is not gonna get them to a skill level where they can actually build-

    21. CWChris Williamson57:52

        Mm.

    22. BJBrett Jones57:52

        ... an appreciable level of strength. Um, but yet if that's the 30-year-old athlete who really has been pushing hard and is nearing a physiological peak, yeah, I might be deadlifting them once a week.

    23. CWChris Williamson58:03

        Mm.

    24. BJBrett Jones58:04

        Uh...

    25. CWChris Williamson58:05

        I love how, I love how Russian, the Russian approach is. It's like the most, "We, we do bench today, and, and tomorrow."

    26. BJBrett Jones58:13

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson58:13

        Like, every day. (laughs)

    28. BJBrett Jones58:13

        What do we want to get better at? I want to get better at bench. Guess what we're gonna be doing?

    29. CWChris Williamson58:17

        (laughs) Gonna be benching a lot. (laughs)

    30. BJBrett Jones58:19

        We're gonna be benching. So yeah, it is, uh, it is a very utilitarian, um, uh, minimalist sort of, uh, mindset. And, um, we, we get into muscle confusion and, you know, all of these different things, and, and the pursuit of building strength, um, actually means dedicating yourself to a very narrow, uh, window of things that you're gonna be doing. Now, you look at something like Westside, where Louie Simmons not only had, um, and there's, Westside's very interesting, but they were trying to optimize three lifts. But Louie has like 200 assistance exercises for the bench, because he would spot a weak spot in your bench and had a drill to address that weak spot. So it wasn't variety for variety's sake. It was variety meant to progress you in that main goal, but the goal never changed. The continuity of the training process was always there. Um, and that, you know, strength training means dedicating yourself towards a goal of building strength, uh, and doing that over time, and having this continuity of training process, um, that leads to success.
14. 1:00:38 – 1:04:19

    Choosing a methodology: simple templates, adherence, and avoiding ‘struggle porn’

    1. CWChris Williamson1:00:38

       you supposed to select? I have this myriad of training, uh, opportunities in front of me. How, how do I choose?

    2. BJBrett Jones1:00:45

       So, I, I think to get started, let's start there. To get started, uh, the basics work. Three to five sets of three to five reps, three to five days a week, um, just to keep it as simple as possible, with, with some variation in, in what you're doing. Uh, that will build strength. And for the beginner, uh, I don't want to say almost any program will work, but almost any program will work, you know, for the beginner.It's when you have built a base of strength and you're trying to specialize and aim yourself in a particular direction, that then the, the, the next training protocol carries more weight. (laughs) Strength training joke. Um, carries more weight in, in how you're gonna, uh, succeed, uh, in that. Uh, keeping in mind health and, and progress, um, you know, as long as you're being mindful of those, then you gotta know when to stop a routine and make a change. You don't want to, uh ... And I know, um, the, the, I've seen it referred to as struggle porn, uh-

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

       Mm-hmm.

    4. BJBrett Jones1:01:52

       ... where there's this message out there that you gotta grind and you're gonna grind and you're gonna grind. And, you know, you put all these hours in and you grind, and, and believe me, I, uh, I've put in the hours and, and, uh, that's not a, a problem for me. But you can grind too far and too deeply and cause yourself problems. You, you don't wanna quit before the process comes to fruition, but you gotta know when the process isn't gonna come to fruition, and you gotta make a change. Um, so kind of a dichotomy there, uh, to, to work with. So, um, figuring out whether you're a high volume or low volume athlete, I think is one of the most important distinctions from a strength training standpoint. And I have friends of mine that can handle a very high number of lifts per month. I am not that person. I am not a, a high volume, uh, trainee. Uh, if I do a high volume routine, it needs to be, um, um, six weeks-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:02:50

       Small windows.

    6. BJBrett Jones1:02:50

       ... to eight weeks and ... Yeah, small windows, and then get away from it, uh, because the, the siren song of volume, uh, becomes a little too strong-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:00

       Coming for you.

    8. BJBrett Jones1:03:01

       ... and you overload yourself. Exactly.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:03

       (laughs) I love it. Brett, thank you so much for today. It's been great. If the listeners want to find out some more info, what have the books been that we've cited today, and where else can they head?

    10. BJBrett Jones1:03:14

        So if you go to strongfirst.com, uh, you'll find, uh, everything there from the community forum, our articles and, and things of that nature. A lot of information, uh, available there. Um, the book is Quick and the Dead, The Quick and the Dead, um, and has some tremendous information in it. And, uh, you'll, you'll see our barbell, kettlebell and body weight sort of, uh, modalities represented on the website and, uh, and on the forum. So kind of a one-stop shop, a lot of information, uh, to be gained there.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:03:46

        I love it. Thank you so much for your time. I'm hoping that we'll make some people a little bit stronger. Any questions that you have, feel free to throw them in the YouTube comments below, uh, and I'll try and hassle Brett if there's a, if there's anything specific that I can't answer myself. But for now, Brett, thank you very much.

    12. BJBrett Jones1:04:00

        Beautiful. Thank you, sir. It was great to have the opportunity. Outfits. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Outfits.

Episode duration: 1:04:19