What Is The Fitness Menopause? | Modern Wisdom Podcast 173

1. 0:00 – 1:13

   Gym culture in-jokes: bodybuilding dreams vs lifting reality

   1. YUYusef0:00

      So I- I've got quite strong views on this, which is that everybody wants to be a bodybuilder.

   2. JOJonny0:06

      (laughs)

   3. YUYusef0:06

      But nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weight.

   4. JOJonny0:08

      Have you ever spent weeks trying to improve your hammer curl, for example?

   5. YUYusef0:12

      (laughs)

   6. JOJonny0:12

      Because you, because you were t- you read an article on T Nation th- that spoke about how it attacked the biceps slightly differently, and you felt like that was what your life was missing? If you know who Zyzz is?

   7. CWChris Williamson0:21

      If you know who Zyzz is, yeah, that's it.

   8. JOJonny0:22

      That's it. Like that's the, that's the certificate.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:24

      That's the ƒ.

   10. JOJonny0:24

       Like if, if you know who Zyzz is, this'll all completely make sense-

   11. CWChris Williamson0:26

       Make sense.

   12. JOJonny0:27

       ... to you, and you'll just be sat there nodding along.

   13. YUYusef0:28

       Did the squats and milk program, which is ... So three times a week, you take your 10 rep max, you do a set of 10, and then you keep the bar on your back and you take five to 10 deep breaths, and you do another rep, and you keep doing that until you hit 20. And then you have a gallon of milk a day. So I was having a gallon of whole milk, 4.7 liters-

   14. CWChris Williamson0:44

       (laughs)

   15. YUYusef0:44

       ... of whole milk every day, just sat in class. And I remember doing this and, like, throwing up raspberry whey down my top while I had the bar on my back.

   16. CWChris Williamson0:53

       (laughs) .

   17. YUYusef0:53

       Doing these, like, squats and milk, being so out of breath.

   18. CWChris Williamson0:58

       (wind blowing) I'm joined by Jonny and Yusuf from propanefitness.com. Look at that.

   19. JOJonny1:06

       Hello.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:07

       So good to see you. Are you doing some boxing?

   21. JOJonny1:10

       I was just enjoying the, the effect.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:12

       You're like a-

   23. JOJonny1:13

       It's quite impressive, isn't it?

2. 1:13 – 2:48

   Defining the “Fitness Menopause”: losing the spark for bro-lifting

   1. CWChris Williamson1:13

      ... like a cat. Uh, today, we are talking about the fitness menopause. It's something that we've dropped on podcasts for the last couple of years. I'll start off. I'll try and give a, a broad definition so everyone knows what we're talking about, and then we'll, we'll take it from there. So, fitness menopause was something that I'd identified within myself toward my late 20s when I'd been doing bro lifting, fitness stuff, bodybuilding for a while, and realized as I became chronically aware of my own mortality as I approached 30, uh, realized that I was getting out of breath going up a, a big hill and I was kind of a little bit bored of just doing, you know, chest Mondays and chest Tuesdays and chest Wednesdays and curls and stuff like that, and training purely for aesthetics. And I was just disenchanted. I kind of lost my love with training. Um, certainly lost the motivation to do it without really grinding myself to get out of bed and, and go to the gym. Um, so then just started trying to do different things. The fitness menopause describes a period, I think, in a lot of fitness people's lives, who perhaps have just entered into the world of training by doing bodybuilding or bro style lifting, um, from just the age of teens or early 20s or whatever, and then never tried anything else. And as they approach their late 20s, they think, "Oh, hang on. Like, this, this maybe isn't fulfilling me in quite the way that I thought." How do you think about that as a definition? You reckon that's about right?

3. 2:48 – 5:26

   Why Millennials got funneled into bodybuilding first

   1. YUYusef2:48

      I, I mean, that's about right. It, it applies to a very specific subsection of people. And a- are we Millennials or are we-

   2. CWChris Williamson2:55

      No, we're technically ... Yeah, it's '84, '84 till '96.

   3. YUYusef3:00

      Eigh- okay. So, so I think in that case then, (clears throat) Millennials tend to fall into this bracket quite well because there was this surge of the popularity of weightlifting, bodybuilding, that kind of stuff, kind of coinciding with like T Nation's rise and fall and then bodybuilding.com and all of these like, um, like Simply Shredded.

   4. JOJonny3:19

      Z-Zero.

   5. YUYusef3:19

      Remember that? Yeah.

   6. JOJonny3:20

      Oh god. Simply Shredded is fucking wild.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:21

      Jesus Christ.

   8. YUYusef3:23

      (laughs) So all, all of those kinda things.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:26

      (clears throat) .

   10. YUYusef3:26

       And so most 18 to 22 year old guys got swept up in this, and usually it was the only kind of physical activity they did apart from maybe five a side, which is the other like (laughs) most popular young male activity.

   11. JOJonny3:43

       (laughs) .

   12. YUYusef3:43

       Um-

   13. JOJonny3:44

       I've h- I've, I've heard.

   14. YUYusef3:47

       ... standard issue. (laughs) So yeah, I, I think most people will have gone through a few years of that. And Jonny and I always say that the minimum entry requirement to even consider having been in fitness menopause or gone through it is you have to have done three to five years of pec deck and leg press.

   15. JOJonny4:05

       (laughs)

   16. YUYusef4:06

       (laughs)

   17. JOJonny4:07

       That's, that's just how I think. Like, anyone that like ... You know when you feel like you're one of these people who did something before it was cool? So I think we all did fitness before it was cool.

   18. CWChris Williamson4:16

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JOJonny4:16

       And now there's loads of people wanting to do fitness 'cause it's a bit cool. So like people are getting into the s- the strength sports and starting. And you just think like, "You're just missing-"

   20. CWChris Williamson4:23

       You mean, you mean real, real fitness?

   21. JOJonny4:25

       Real-

   22. YUYusef4:25

       You haven't had the induction. (laughs)

   23. JOJonny4:26

       You haven't had like the, like h- have you ever spent weeks trying to improve your hammer curl, for example?

   24. CWChris Williamson4:32

       (laughs)

   25. JOJonny4:32

       Because you, because you were t- you read an article on T Nation th- that spoke about how it slightly attacked the biceps slightly differently-

   26. CWChris Williamson4:39

       Yeah.

   27. JOJonny4:39

       ... and you felt like that was what your life was missing?

   28. CWChris Williamson4:41

       Did you-

   29. JOJonny4:42

       And you went-

   30. CWChris Williamson4:42

       Did you practice two kilogram, uh, Arnold press just so that you could really get the form down?
4. 5:26 – 7:36

   Bodybuilding’s low barrier to entry (and why that matters)

   1. CWChris Williamson5:26

      Um, yeah. So here's my reasoning. Uh, timing's one of them. Um, but my other reason, and this is why I, I think the front end of the bodybuilding and fitness training, that kind of fitness training funnel continues to get good traffic in the front end (clears throat) is that it's the type of training with the lowest mechanical barriers to entry and the lowest amount of skill requirement of any physical sport on the planet. Now I can take anyone who's listening, I can take your mom-... into the gym tomorrow, teach her a supinated bicep curl to probably within about 80% of the compliance and proficiency that I can do it in after 15 years of training.

   2. JOJonny6:07

      Yeah.

   3. YUYusef6:07

      And you can increase her back width, get her a sick taper-

   4. CWChris Williamson6:10

      (laughs)

   5. YUYusef6:10

      ... um-

   6. CWChris Williamson6:11

      Get her jacked. Get your mum jacked so that she looks real mean when she's walking the dog. But yeah, the, the barriers to entry to doing bodybuilding are so, so low and people don't like doing stuff that they suck at, you know? Like think about weightlifting. The snatch is essentially an impossible movement. Like it's completely ridiculous.

   7. JOJonny6:30

      Physically impossible.

   8. CWChris Williamson6:31

      And, and s- and some people just do that and another one all their life. You know, Klokov.

   9. YUYusef6:38

      And they're still not- (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson6:38

       Klokov just does variations of snatch and clean and jerk, and he's like, he's in his 40s and h- and still massive, but you get my point.

   11. YUYusef6:46

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson6:46

       Like people don't like doing stuff that's challenging mechanically 'cause they feel silly.

   13. JOJonny6:50

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson6:50

       Whereas you can go into a gym tomorrow and get externalized rewards, socialized rewards, don't really need to worry about what the, what the internalized gains are. It's like, "Oh well, I can't really touch my toes anymore and maybe my shoulder aches a bit, but look at that, I've gained an inch on my chest."

   15. JOJonny7:07

       Well, we've all been involved in han- like a big guy in the gym, you're like 19, big guy in the gym who's been like strutting around working up to a big set of incline dumbbell press. And he comes up, he goes like, "Mate, just hand over the dumbbells for us, please." And you have to pick up the dumbbell and give it to him, and then you watch him go... (imitates set grunting)

   16. CWChris Williamson7:24

       (laughs) Partial rep.

   17. JOJonny7:27

       Yeah. Because he feels good at it because he can just set his own rules. Like no one's checking his form on his incline dumbbell press. It's like, "Well, I lifted the biggest dumbbells in the gym, mate." So I'm just going-

5. 7:36 – 12:09

   Powerlifting: “sport for non-athletes” vs elite athletic reality

   1. YUYusef7:36

      So that's the, the, the, that's like the, the entry level, isn't it? The way you can, you can even set your own rules for range of motion and everything else. Powerlifting is kind of the next level up, but it still is very much unfortunately like the, the sport for non-athletes.

   2. CWChris Williamson7:50

      (laughs)

   3. JOJonny7:51

      And, and it's, it's, it's why it's got the, um, the reputation of like at least a beginner and kind of low intermediate level is that it, it's just got the reputation of like people who were never any good at any other sport or athletic activity.

   4. CWChris Williamson8:04

      Mm-hmm.

   5. YUYusef8:05

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JOJonny8:05

      And just kind of-

   7. CWChris Williamson8:05

      But it's not wildly athletic, is it?

   8. JOJonny8:08

      Well, no, and it allows people to justify being, being fat, not being able to touch their toes, like all of the kind of things that would normally just not fly in another sport. But instead it's, it's almost-

   9. CWChris Williamson8:19

      Poor diet, too much caffeine, Haribo during training.

   10. YUYusef8:22

       ... it's an advantage, like at, at, like at competition, you see people that clearly do not need like intra-workout or intra-competition, um, Haribo and burgers and stuff, and then they go, go out for McDonald's at the end of the... having done nine reps that day-

   11. CWChris Williamson8:34

       (laughs)

   12. JOJonny8:34

       ... for the competition.

   13. CWChris Williamson8:35

       (laughs)

   14. JOJonny8:36

       So I'm going to be... I am going to defend powerlifting here. I feel like-

   15. CWChris Williamson8:39

       Of course you are.

   16. JOJonny8:39

       ... people will be expecting me to.

   17. CWChris Williamson8:41

       Yeah.

   18. JOJonny8:41

       I completely agree with that until you reach like national level, especially like national level in the US and then international level.

   19. YUYusef8:49

       100%.

   20. JOJonny8:50

       Like when you, when you bump into a Polish bloke who's pulling like 410 with like neck striations, and you're like, that guy is-

   21. YUYusef8:57

       What, what's happened there is that you, you've got someone who actually-

   22. JOJonny8:59

       ... you're quite athletic.

   23. YUYusef9:00

       Yeah, that's someone who is an athlete and is, you've put them into a sport which-

   24. JOJonny9:04

       Well, often when you look at it, like when you look at their background, it's like, so like Tom Martin, you look at his background and you're like, "Ah, yeah, 100 meter sprinter. Yeah, of cour- of, of course." But like people who like fell out of... It's, uh, I think the people who, who tend to like get like it, like were doing rugby at a really high level, stop playing rugby, and then they're like, "Oh well, I, I lift weights, I might as well just do that." And then before they know it, they're like podiuming-

   25. CWChris Williamson9:26

       Yeah.

   26. JOJonny9:26

       ... at a national level, and they can't really figure out why.

   27. CWChris Williamson9:28

       The, uh-

   28. JOJonny9:29

       It's like where, where has the competition gone? Um... (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson9:30

       This, this, and it's a good, it's a good point about the low end level on powerlifting, but being honest, like watch a shite Sunday league football team play. You know, you're not, you're not exactly going to be watching fucking Cristiano Ronaldo go at it. So you're right, at the bottom end of that. But at least those football players aren't just picking the ball up and running with it and saying, "Oh well, mate, this is actually a little bit better for my pec development, so, um, it doesn't really matter."

   30. JOJonny9:54

       (laughs)
6. 12:09 – 23:27

   Do you like bodybuilding—or do you just like exercising (and outcomes)?

   1. CWChris Williamson12:09

      So, so, okay, so that's, that's why I think people fall into kind of, like I say, this path of least resistance. And here's the question that I want most people that are listening to try and answer, and it is, if you're doing a bodybuilding program or if most of your training f- uh, career has been spent doing bodybuilding, typical bro-style training as a guy or a girl, do you like bodybuilding or do you like exercising? Because those are not the same thing.

   2. YUYusef12:40

      Yeah, so I've, I've got quite strong views on this, um, which is that everybody wants to be a bodybuilder- ... but nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weight. No, my m- my, my thought is that everyone has-

   3. CWChris Williamson12:54

      (laughs) Jonny's lost it. (laughs)

   4. JOJonny12:58

      It's true. It's one of the, the ancient axioms, isn't it, of like-

   5. CWChris Williamson13:01

      Yeah. (laughs)

   6. JOJonny13:02

      ... written in stone by Ron Coleman, PhD.

   7. YUYusef13:05

      Ronald. (laughs)

   8. JOJonny13:06

      Ron, Ron Coleman-

   9. CWChris Williamson13:06

      Coleman.

   10. JOJonny13:07

       ... et al.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:07

       Ah.

   12. YUYusef13:08

       So the reality is that everyone has bodybuilding goals. There is such a small percentage of the world, and th- they're, they're like a weird kind of like fetish group, aren't they, like feeders and that kind of thing, that don't want-

   13. CWChris Williamson13:22

       What are bodybuilders?

   14. YUYusef13:23

       Less fat and more muscle. So they, yeah, they're like 0.01% of people that have this weird fetish or what have like an inverse bodybuilding goal, but-

   15. JOJonny13:32

       It's still a bodybuilding goal.

   16. YUYusef13:33

       ... it's still (laughs) -

   17. CWChris Williamson13:34

       Okay, I'm gonna... Let me rephrase, let me rephrase the way that I put it. Do you like bodybuilding training or do you like-

   18. JOJonny13:42

       I see.

   19. CWChris Williamson13:42

       ... exercise?

   20. JOJonny13:43

       So I, I think that probably most people, I think the number of people who like exercise probably don't like it because it's exercise, if you see what I mean. Like they don't... No one likes bodybuilding necessarily, no one really likes even like the more modern stuff. Like I know people get really obsessed with certain aspects of powerlifting, certain aspects of CrossFit. They just like what they think it's going to do for them or what they kind of get out of it. So they get a little bit of props on social media, people share their new lift, they hit a new Fran time. Um, and I, my experience has been throughout fitness, like I desperately wanted abs because I was convinced that that was gonna improve my life. Got it, and I was like, "Mm, no." And then I desperately wanted a 300 kilo deadlift because I was like, "Well, that means I win if I got a 300 kilo deadlift." Got it and was like, "Mm, okay." And then like the goals just kind of drift past and you're like, "Well, I could get lean again, but doesn't really do much for me. Like I could add 10 kilos to my deadlift, but like that'd be a proper faff."

   21. YUYusef14:44

       That's maybe what fueled the fitness menopause for you, is that you have to, uh, you have to hit all these big achievements and then-

   22. JOJonny14:50

       Mm-hmm.

   23. YUYusef14:50

       ... you're like, "Mm, didn't rea-" Yeah, this is exactly the same.

   24. JOJonny14:52

       Well, so I, I think that people go, people attach onto a mode of exercise because they, they believe that the outcome of it will be a huge deal for them. And it, to be honest, it is. Like I, I think that probably what, what I've gained from fitness is, is a big deal. But you kind of hit these milestones and then you think, "All right, well, I'm kind of done with bodybuilding now. Like I've, I've done it, I've taken a progress photo, I'm really happy. Maybe I should start doing something that's competitive. Maybe I'll get into triathlons or..."

   25. CWChris Williamson15:18

       I think, I think there's a good point to be made there about the fact that you kind of do need to pay your dues. If you've got this unticked box with regards to physical development in some other area, it is a good idea to tick that first. It's that Naval Ravikant-ism where he says, "It is far easier to achieve your material desires than to recount them." And it's like-

   26. YUYusef15:40

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson15:40

       ... I would much sooner not w- not be bothered about being lean because I've been lean than not-

   28. YUYusef15:46

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson15:46

       ... bothered about being lean just because I gave up, you know?

   30. JOJonny15:49

       (clears throat)
7. 23:27 – 26:21

   Why switching sports often reignites progress (compliance + novelty)

   1. CWChris Williamson23:27

      Okay, so that's th- that's I think a nice little bit of framing. So I think again, for the people that are listening, my m- main question is do you enjoy a body building style of training? Do you enjoy chest on a Monday, and legs on a Tuesday, and shoulders on a Wednesday, and blah, blah, blah? Five sets of fucking ten to 14 or whatever it might be, and I'll do me warm ups, and I'll do me external rotations, and all that stuff.

   2. JOJonny23:47

      Sevens.

   3. CWChris Williamson23:47

      Sevens.

   4. YUYusef23:48

      Everyone loves that one.

   5. JOJonny23:48

      Partials.

   6. CWChris Williamson23:49

      One, two kilo plates on. (laughs)

   7. JOJonny23:50

      Do me partials. Um, like is that what you enjoy or do you enjoy exercise? Because especially for a lot of guys that are listening but s- some girls as well, you'll have done a bunch of sports at school, probably after school clubs, something like that. Maybe you played football or rugby or cricket or, you know, America baseball, American football, whatever it might be. And then you get to college or uni...

   8. CWChris Williamson24:13

      ... and realize that there's distractions of drinking and partying and getting in relationships and stuff like that. And then you think, "Well, I need something which is flexible in terms of time, doesn't have very many barriers to entry, and bolsters my confidence in a very socialized way rather than in a, an achievement, uh, s- sized way." And, um, I, I just think what it leads a lot of people to do is get to their mid-to-late 20s and think, "Fucking hell, I haven't really actually indulged my desires in terms of a physical output for a very, very long time. The type, the domain that I've been operating within hasn't actually made me feel that much better at all. I'm, look jacked, do whatever, but, um, (clears throat) now I'm gonna try, I wonder what yoga's like? I wonder what fighting's like? I wonder what Brazilian jujitsu's like? I wonder what CrossFit's like?" And then inevitably, what you see when people pivot and make that transition is that because it's ... firstly, because there's a novelty effect, but secondly because they perhaps genuinely have found something that they enjoy as a sport or as an athletic pursuit, their compliance goes up. And when their compliance goes up, their training volume goes up. And when their training volume goes up, their condition and their progress, uh, i- increases. So you actually realize that (clears throat) perhaps stopping to a g- doing a bodybuilding program which you low-key hate might be one of the best things you could do for your bodybuilding goals by s- switching to something else. Now, there's a s- couple of caveats. If you want to keep on making growth and gains, you need to make sure that whatever you're choosing to do has some form of, of loading. It also needs to have some form of progressive overload in there. It also needs to have some form of intensity. You know, like, no one's getting jacked doing yoga unless it's a very specific type of yoga which is like a lot of power yoga with, um, you know, uh, y- yin yoga isn't getting anyone jacked. Um, but yeah, m- my point is I, I just think a lot more people than n- realize it would be significantly happier doing a different type of sport.

   9. JOJonny26:19

      Mm. I think it kind of depends on-

8. 26:21 – 32:14

   You still need a base: strength, awareness, and basic competencies

   1. YUYusef26:21

      Only if they've been through the initial phase.

   2. JOJonny26:23

      Yeah. Yeah. They need to think-

   3. CWChris Williamson26:25

      Why do they need, why do they need to do that? Why do they need to go through the initial phase?

   4. YUYusef26:27

      E- everyone has to gain a, a basic level of muscle mass and strength, and there's so, like, 99% of people who I see who are untrained, like, most of their problems could be fixed by just getting a body weight squat and a body weight be- you know, like, just hitting basic targets with e- even, like, rehab injury type stuff. You, you know when you see ... we've talked about this on other podcasts (laughs) , I think, when you see, um, girls wearing UGG boots and they're like, they've got like valgus knee and their hips just, ugh, and, and they just look really, like, floppy and-

   5. CWChris Williamson27:00

      Floppy, yeah.

   6. YUYusef27:00

      ... and, and they're always complaining of hip issues. And, and you're like, "If you just could squat 60 kilos, so much of your life would be sorted out."

   7. JOJonny27:09

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson27:10

      Clamshells twice a week.

   9. YUYusef27:11

      (laughs)

   10. JOJonny27:12

       (laughs)

   11. YUYusef27:13

       Th- those things with the bands and ...

   12. CWChris Williamson27:15

       Yeah.

   13. JOJonny27:15

       I think it's like, it's just, it's just general, gaining general body awareness and what it feels like to, to push yourself physically. I think it's really easy to gain experience with that with, like, a barbell or machine-based resistance training. So something that I saw when, um, I did CrossFit for, I dunno, like six months, was there's people in there who clearly, like, found CrossFit off the, like, like you Chris, like, found it off the back of having spent a lot of time doing, like, bodybuilding-based training. And a lot of it, like, someone gives you a dumbbell, you're like, "No problem."

   14. CWChris Williamson27:51

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JOJonny27:52

       "I've seen a dumbbell before. Done a lot of shit with a dumbbell. Dumbbell's fine." Like, the, the more sort of and kind of the, the base layer, like, of, of Maslow's hierarchy in CrossFit is, is sorted, like, they can give you a barbell. They can give y- they can say, "Chris, jump onto that-"

   16. CWChris Williamson28:05

       Mm.

   17. JOJonny28:05

       "... and you're fine." But if you, if it ... (laughs) what are you laughing about?

   18. YUYusef28:08

       I just, just love, like, the concept of being given a dumbbell and being like, "I'm familiar with one of these."

   19. JOJonny28:13

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson28:13

       I know, I know, I know how this works.

   21. JOJonny28:14

       Well, that's, that's just how I felt about, like, if s- if there was a CrossFit workout where, like, Tim stands up and goes, "Barbell here, dumbbell there," and I'm like, "I can do those."

   22. CWChris Williamson28:24

       Got it.

   23. JOJonny28:24

       But if it's like, "Run," like, "Whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa."

   24. CWChris Williamson28:27

       "Uh, yeah, I didn't fucking s-"

   25. JOJonny28:29

       "Here, come on. Come on, mate."

   26. CWChris Williamson28:29

       "... I didn't fucking sign up for this."

   27. JOJonny28:30

       "Woah. Whoa. Hold on."

   28. CWChris Williamson28:31

       "I didn't fucking sign up for this."

   29. JOJonny28:31

       "Hold on. Rub that out, mate. Just rub that line out."

   30. YUYusef28:35

       Yeah. Yeah.
9. 32:14 – 37:39

   Jonny’s fitness arc: from bullied kid to Worlds—and then burnout

   1. JOJonny32:14

      All right. Uh, 15, 16, fat kid, started getting bullied. I was like, "Right, well, I'm not having that." So started, started ... watched a Rocky film, started running. Realized running wasn't the answer, read a couple of copies of Men's Health, Men's Fitness, started doing loads of curls, like loads of curls and like press-ups and all that sort of stuff. Then gym sort of progressively worked its way through. Like, that's when I met Yusuf for the first time, when he was doing like squats three times a week and drinking a gallon of milk a day.

   2. CWChris Williamson32:43

      Yeah.

   3. JOJonny32:43

      I think-

   4. YUYusef32:44

      Just, yeah. Oh. (laughs)

   5. JOJonny32:45

      lots of that stuff. So like lots of like, lots of ... I remember like the first time t- trying creatine and all that sort of stuff just in this desperate attempt to get lean for the first time. Got lean for the first time, then realized actually, like, being strong and training f- ... so then, like, did my first bulk ever, and realized that gaining we- gaining weight and gaining strength was actually more exciting than losing weight and losing strength. (laughs) And so did like 13 ra- 13 blocks of five-three-one, hit my first ever like 500-pound deadlift, squatted 200 kilos for the first time with Yusuf in ... where were we?

   6. YUYusef33:19

      Washington? Was it not?

   7. JOJonny33:20

      No.

   8. YUYusef33:20

      Oh, Kenton.

   9. JOJonny33:21

      Kenton, Kenton gym. Um, and then like that-

   10. CWChris Williamson33:25

       There's a gym in Kenton?

   11. YUYusef33:25

       With, with security cameras and cages around the security cameras.

   12. JOJonny33:27

       Yeah. I squatted 200 kilos in the corner of that gym, um, and that k- kind of became an addiction. So then got into ... did my first powerlifting competition 'cause Yusuf suggested I did. Um, and it literally went like, first competition, first squat I ever did, set a regional record. (laughs)

   13. YUYusef33:44

       (laughs)

   14. JOJonny33:45

       Second squat I did, broke my own regional record, won that competition, went to nationals, came third. Went Europeans, went to worlds. They were like my first o-

   15. CWChris Williamson33:54

       So, might be something to this.

   16. JOJonny33:55

       (laughs) There might be, yeah. So like, th- that was like my first six powerlifting competitions. So I was like, "This is quite fun, this."

   17. CWChris Williamson34:00

       (laughs)

   18. JOJonny34:00

       Like, I get like the GB kit and all. This is mint. Um, but then, years of that-

   19. CWChris Williamson34:05

       And what age are you here, 25, 24?

   20. JOJonny34:07

       Probably, yeah. 20, yeah. 2015 I went to worlds, so 25.

   21. CWChris Williamson34:12

       Yep.

   22. JOJonny34:13

       Um, and then kind of after that, um, trying to juggle it around, like, Propane taking off and, and like doing more work in the business, um, and you've kind of scratched that itch, so it starts to become less and less interesting. And probably go back a year, was when that came to a, a head and I was just like, "Man, like, I just cannot motivate myself to ..." So I moved up a weight class as well. So for the first time in my life, about two years ago, stopped being lean all the time. And I was like, I'd gained quite a lot of weight, and I was dealing with this-

   23. CWChris Williamson34:42

       Tactically.

   24. JOJonny34:42

       ... other like side- What?

   25. CWChris Williamson34:44

       You tactically gained weight.

   26. JOJonny34:45

       Tact ... Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson34:45

       It wasn't like-

   28. JOJonny34:46

       Yeah. I did.

   29. YUYusef34:46

       (laughs)

   30. CWChris Williamson34:46

       ... you liked yourself. It wasn't like you'd gone to seed or something, it's that you'd decided-
10. 37:39 – 46:07

    Yusef’s fitness arc: extreme bulks/cuts, competition, and serious injury

    1. YUYusef37:39

       So yeah (clears throat) , um, met, I think met Johnny in like the school gym at age of 16. Um, I was doing all sorts of stupid stuff, like, all the, like, Pavel Tsatsouline and... I can't really remember the name of the guy who was making you do like a thousand Hindu squats and Hindu press-ups every day.

    2. JOJonny37:57

       Yeah.

    3. YUYusef37:57

       It was called like com- Combat Core Conditioning or some- something like that. Um, I, I've got an image of Johnny trying a pre-workout for the first time, like, it, it came as like a free sample in like a magazine.

    4. CWChris Williamson38:08

       (laughs)

    5. YUYusef38:08

       And then had like-

    6. JOJonny38:10

       Magrex.

    7. YUYusef38:11

       ... ma- yeah, it had like-

    8. JOJonny38:12

       Yeah.

    9. YUYusef38:12

       ... two cables behind him. Um, so holding onto the cables and doing like a loaded sprint and then stepping back and doing that again.

    10. JOJonny38:19

        (laughs)

    11. YUYusef38:20

        Um, then I discovered the Strong Lifts Five By Five program.

    12. JOJonny38:23

        Didn't you do... Sorry to interrupt. Didn't you do like an arm program that was like Arms MX 5000 or something? Didn't you-

    13. YUYusef38:28

        Oh, probably, yeah, like all kinds of-

    14. JOJonny38:30

        Sure there's a... 'Cause your original, like, transformation article, you were talking about doing like really high volume arm work.

    15. YUYusef38:38

        Oh, yeah. I've, I, I basically done every like free e-book-

    16. JOJonny38:42

        (laughs)

    17. YUYusef38:43

        ... and, and like ridiculous program that... And like surprisingly none of it worked. One, because I ate like an absolute pigeon. Um, then I, I bought some whey and had like one scoop of it or like almost a scoop of it once, once every day that I was training, and I was thinking like, "Oh, that'll, that'll be it." Like, despite eating maybe 800 calories a day. Started the Strong Lift Five By Five program, which, that's when progress started to move up, just 'cause I was using a barbell, doing some kind of progressive overload. Did the squats and milk program, which is where you take... So three times a week, you take your 10 rep max with a squat, which, there was no squat rack so I had to just set up the bar onto like, um-

    18. JOJonny39:24

        Gymnastic horses, wasn't it?

    19. YUYusef39:25

        ... trapeze. School hor- yeah, school gymnastic horses.

    20. JOJonny39:27

        Yeah.

    21. YUYusef39:27

        Like get underneath it, like squeeze underneath, and then start my set. You do a set of 10, which is your 10 rep marks, and then you keep the bar on your back and you take five to 10 deep breaths and you do another rep, and then you keep doing that until you hit 20. And then you have a gallon of milk a day. So I was having a gallon of whole milk, 4.7 liters of whole milk every day, just sat in class. Um, and I remember doing this and like throwing up raspberry whey down my top while I had the bar on my back-

    22. CWChris Williamson39:57

        (laughs)

    23. YUYusef39:58

        ... um, doing these like squats and milk, being so out of breath and just like... (laughs) And like this was in a, a, this was in like a, a gym where you, again, no squat rack, you just have to like fashion together a bunch of kit. So I must have just looked a bit mental. Um, then went to uni, got, uh, got a coach based on Johnny's... No, no, in fact this was... Sorry. Th- before this. So I was 59 kilos, stayed around that weight. Went to uni, gained 31 kilos over three months.

    24. JOJonny40:29

        (laughs)

    25. YUYusef40:30

        So that is half my body weight. (laughs) Um, by basically drinking a pint of cream, a pint of double cream every night before bed, glasses of olive oil between meals, uh, cheesecake in the blender, just like-

    26. CWChris Williamson40:45

        Quality weight then. Real quality weight.

    27. YUYusef40:46

        ... quality th- Oh, real quality weight. My lifts didn't go up at all during that period.

    28. CWChris Williamson40:50

        (laughs)

    29. YUYusef40:50

        Oh, yeah. It's all muscle 'cause I- my T-shirts were fitting tighter. Um, so did that, had, uh, Mutant Mass as well.

    30. CWChris Williamson41:01

        Mm-hmm.
11. 46:07 – 49:54

    Supplement nostalgia and the reckless era of pre-workouts

    1. YUYusef46:07

       Yeah, so did, did that program. Body Building... Well, i- iBodyBuilder.

    2. JOJonny46:11

       iBodyBuilder.

    3. YUYusef46:13

       God, that was so-

    4. JOJonny46:14

       That was developed out of a black ops bodybuilding project, do you remember?

    5. CWChris Williamson46:16

       (laughs)

    6. YUYusef46:19

       Really well produced.

    7. CWChris Williamson46:20

       Fucking hell.

    8. YUYusef46:21

       Um, so-

    9. CWChris Williamson46:21

       You couldn't get away with that now. I mean in the, in the-

    10. JOJonny46:24

        No.

    11. CWChris Williamson46:24

        ... in the era of GDPR there's no way you could've gotten away with, with a-

    12. JOJonny46:28

        (laughs) Excuse me! Have you got my leg press data?

    13. CWChris Williamson46:32

        (laughs)

    14. YUYusef46:33

        The er- eras, yeah, GDPR and COVID and complaints and like-

    15. CWChris Williamson46:39

        Wow.

    16. YUYusef46:39

        ... post- postmodernism.

    17. JOJonny46:40

        But, you know what? at the time.

    18. CWChris Williamson46:41

        Kids, kids today will never know.

    19. JOJonny46:44

        When, when you could watch a video like that and actually be legit convinced that like this is all, all you needed was the iBodyBuilder program, like how nice life was.

    20. CWChris Williamson46:53

        When, when the Jack, Jack 3D pre-workout had illegal compounds in it, like literally had an amphetamine-

    21. YUYusef47:01

        It's powerful stuff.

    22. CWChris Williamson47:01

        What, uh...

    23. JOJonny47:02

        Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson47:02

        I think it was.

    25. JOJonny47:03

        1,3-dimethylamyline, I believe it's called.

    26. CWChris Williamson47:05

        Is that the derivative of amphetamine or something?

    27. YUYusef47:08

        Yeah, it-

    28. JOJonny47:09

        Powerful stuff.

    29. YUYusef47:11

        Do you remember the first time you took that?

    30. CWChris Williamson47:12

        Yeah.
12. 49:54 – 53:42

    The real pattern behind the fitness menopause: injuries, mortality, integration

    1. CWChris Williamson49:54

       ... here's something that I can see that's a universal across both of yours, which is that, um, part of the inflection point where you changed your training methodology occurred due to injuries of one kind or another.

    2. JOJonny50:08

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson50:09

       Um, a, a disenchantment with training, um, a lack of novelty in the training that you were doing because you'd done a lot of it already.

    4. JOJonny50:17

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson50:17

       And then, um, yeah. I think realizing that, like, all that we've been doing was aggravating the injury and just continuing to ignore the fact that it was just making it worse. And being like, "Why am I just pursuing loading my body with more and more weight with no particular end point?"

    6. JOJonny50:34

       'Cause y- you can get away with it when you're 18 and you're just basically made of, like, you're just like-

    7. CWChris Williamson50:38

       Remember when you were magic? (laughs)

    8. JOJonny50:38

       ... one of those packs of jelly, yeah, jelly that you drop in the water. You're just like, "Oh."

    9. CWChris Williamson50:42

       It is incredible. I remember being able to do, like, heavy, like, a snatch and then deadlift to a max and then go to gymnastics that evening and then wake up the next day feeling absolutely fine.

    10. JOJonny50:52

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson50:52

        Like, just normal. No DOMS or anything. Now, like, I feel like I've been hit by a bus. (laughs) Well, let's remember, remember what I said to you in my definition, this is, this is why the fitness menopause is such a robust concept, because it is as you become chronically aware of your own mortality. Maybe you get injured-

    12. JOJonny51:08

        Mm-hmm.

    13. CWChris Williamson51:08

        ... once or twice, maybe your bounce back from the injury doesn't quite happen as quickly, maybe you realize that, um, your fitness, like actual, genuine cardiovascular fitness hasn't been cared for apart from only in service of a cut, um, (laughs) for like a long time-

    14. JOJonny51:24

        Oh, yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson51:24

        ... like, the only time that you ever get your heart rate up is in the months of May, June and bit of July before the lads' holiday or, like, the girls', the girls' trip away and stuff. And, um, yeah, the, I, I think there's... And the same for me, right, the, all of the different categories that you guys identified there from training to just have externalized socialized rewards to then getting a little bit bored with it to then getting a little bit injured to then trying a few things to then finding something that I'm happy with and then dialing my training back and then actually finding, um, a sense of fulfillment and pleasure, uh, where training becomes integrated into my life as opposed to being my life, which it was for quite a long time.

    16. JOJonny52:09

        Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson52:09

        And, um, I think that it's actually part of a broader menopause which occurs where if... I need to... If saying menopause so much is triggering, I don't know whether menopause is like a, a word that we really shouldn't be using, but it's the one that we've chosen. We are gonna be in a bit of trouble. People know, I think people know what we mean- Good. ... don't they? Yeah. Good. Thank you. Um, voice of reason there.

    18. JOJonny52:30

        (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson52:30

        Yeah. Um, I think it's part of a broader menopause that you go through again, you know, especially, I think particularly for guys because we mature so much- (laughs) , so much more slowly. Like, there's so much latent maturity that should have occurred in men under the age of 25 and then it kind of like, it's-

    20. JOJonny52:50

        (laughs)

    21. CWChris Williamson52:50

        ... you know when you pull a spring and it's starting to load up and load up and load up and then the thing holding the spring at the back lets go and it goes (imitates spring releasing)

    22. JOJonny52:58

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson52:59

        Well, ex- except for the fact that you can, I think you can make a fart joke to a man of any age- Yeah.

    24. JOJonny53:05

        (laughs)

    25. CWChris Williamson53:05

        ... and it's still funny.

    26. JOJonny53:06

        Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson53:06

        Yeah. You've got, you've got latent-

    28. JOJonny53:08

        (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson53:08

        ... like, old school grandfathered in jokes-

    30. JOJonny53:11

        (laughs)
13. 53:42 – 1:03:11

    Objective vs subjective progress: why sports can beat aesthetics

    1. CWChris Williamson53:42

       um, by looking at different ways to integrate fitness into your life, you can potentially service some of those other changes, you know? If you start to now train for something which is genuinely internally enjoyable to you, which has objective measures of performance, which I think's a really big thing. Like, if all that you're doing is subjective measures of, of progress-

    2. JOJonny54:06

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:06

       ... i.e. aesthetics and bodybuilding, you're never ever going to actually know if you're making progress. And that's one of the reasons that I think people have anxiety about their training, that they never actually know if they're better. You know, it's like, "Am I, am I actually like... Well, I mean, do my delts look ... My delts look a bit better than last year, but, like, maybe my glutes are a bit more down and blah, blah." Like- Uh, so it, th- it's one of the most depressing things about bodybuilding as a sport that, like, even if you're a professional bodybuilder, yeah, you can go by measurements, but really, like, the way that it's ultimately judged is by a subjective panel-

    4. JOJonny54:40

       Preferences.

    5. CWChris Williamson54:41

       ... of judges.... preference.

    6. JOJonny54:43

       Mm-hmm.

    7. YUYusef54:43

       And, and th- there are, uh, Mr. Olympias that have been busting themselves for ages to try it, and they'll just never win, because the judges don't happen to like their physique. And you're like-

    8. CWChris Williamson54:53

       Mm-hmm. Well, I prefer a physique that's got a little bit more traps.

    9. YUYusef54:56

       (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson54:56

        And you're like, "Well, what the fuck does that mean?"

    11. YUYusef54:58

        Yeah, I know.

    12. CWChris Williamson54:58

        Like, what do you mean by that? Whereas, again, if you've got CrossFit, this is one of the, uh, definitely one of the things that you can say about CrossFit, powerlifting, weightlifting, 100 kilos is 100 kilos. Like, it's always gonna be 100 kilos. And if you lift it 10 times last week and then 11 times this week, you have made, definitively, by definition, you have made progress.

    13. JOJonny55:20

        Yeah. Yeah. The thing, the thing that is good about... So, the thing that's a challenge about most strength sports, most barbell-based sports, probably not including Strongman, is you are trying to improve such a narrow range of things, that it's quite easy to have, like especially once you've been training for three, four years, it's quite easy to have, like, six months, years where you may not, maybe don't make any progress at all. Like, I think my bench stalled for, like, four years. Like, add up the reps done to achieve nothing.

    14. YUYusef55:51

        Oh.

    15. JOJonny55:51

        Like, objectively nothing. And you think, "Well, what's the point?" Whereas something like CrossFit, because the, the, it's just this broad plane of things you could improve on-

    16. CWChris Williamson56:02

        Mm-hmm.

    17. JOJonny56:03

        ... um, it's, uh, I think mentally it's easier.

    18. CWChris Williamson56:05

        What it also -

    19. YUYusef56:06

        Well, it's, it, it's why you started slacklining, Chris, isn't it?

    20. CWChris Williamson56:09

        Yeah, definitely. I mean, that's a perfect example of something that is for no gain other than I think it's quite fun. And so if you got, you got to do it with me, and um-

    21. YUYusef56:19

        It's hard. (laughs)

    22. CWChris Williamson56:20

        It's real challenging, but-

    23. YUYusef56:22

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson56:22

        ... like, I'm not doing it because I think it's gonna improve my glute gains. I'm not gonna lie and say that, um, it is... there's not a little bit of me that wants to be good at it so that I can show off.

    25. YUYusef56:33

        Mm-hmm.

    26. CWChris Williamson56:34

        Like, I'm aware, I'm aware that that's probably in there deep down.

    27. YUYusef56:35

        That's why we do anything.

    28. CWChris Williamson56:36

        Yeah. But I, I, I genuinely, like that, slacklining, for people that don't know, slacklining, it's kind of like less weird, um, uh, what's that thing they used to do in the circus?

    29. JOJonny56:49

        Tightrope?

    30. CWChris Williamson56:49

        Tightrope. It's like less weird tightrope, isn't it? Um, uh, but you could, it's a slightly, like flat piece of material that you can stand on and walk along and, and kind of... The real good people can do tricks.
14. 1:03:11 – 1:11:13

    Practical wrap-up: who’s eligible, why grip strength matters, and ‘club rules’

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:11

       Yeah. Th- there is something a bit like that. So, that's very important for people that are at the, the fall side of the curve, the end of the curve.

    2. JOJonny1:03:18

       Apex.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:03:18

       There are also people who are pre-this curve and should not assume that they've hit the fitness menopause. If you've been training less than two, three years, you are nowhere near the fitness menopause. And if anything, if you don't lift weights and you- and you're doing other stuff, you will always benefit from getting... You'll still get a lot of the- the, like the low-hanging fruit from lifting weights, just for a bit, just getting basic level of competence.

    4. JOJonny1:03:43

       Mm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:03:43

       And then you can do whatever you-

    6. JOJonny1:03:46

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:03:46

       ... whatever you like. Well, it's... I mean, that's coming from a proper, proper doctor. I mean, not- Proper doctor. (laughs)

    8. JOJonny1:03:51

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson1:03:51

       Not your doctor. We are not- we are not your doctor.

    10. JOJonny1:03:54

        Just a doctor. Yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:03:55

        But he is a doctor. And, um, yeah, what- what was it that you said before, that, um, a lot of the biomechanical problems and health problems that you get would be fixed if someone could do a body weight squat and a pushup? Oh, for- in terms of soft tissue, niggly injuries, and like, all- all that kind of stuff, absolutely. But there- there is also just a pure, uh, mortality improvement, like all-caused mortality. It... One- one of the biggest factors is grip strength. And yes, that's correlation, and it might be the people who are dying have weaker grip and so on. But if you improve your grip strength, if you improve your total muscle mass, there are so many metabolic, cardiovascular, um, and just overall mortality, um, improvements and reduction in risk that you can get from that. Plus, you look better, you feel better. Like, it's a no-brainer to lift weights for a bit and just get basic levels of strength.

    12. JOJonny1:04:45

        I bought a rolling thunder. Have I told you about this? Do you know what rolling thunder is?

    13. CWChris Williamson1:04:50

        No.

    14. JOJonny1:04:51

        No. So, it's a spinning handle. It's a big spinning... Think of fat grips.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:04:55

        Yeah.

    16. JOJonny1:04:56

        Everyone who's going through fitness menopause knows what a fat grip is. That's another thing.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:04:59

        Yeah.

    18. JOJonny1:04:59

        So, think of a fat grip. So, it's a handle that- that comes down and clips onto a lifting pin that you plate load, and then you... So, that you've got, you've got plates, a pin-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:05:10

        Yeah.

    20. JOJonny1:05:10

        ... and a handle that spins-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:05:11

        Yeah.

    22. JOJonny1:05:11

        ... but it's, it's wide.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:05:12

        Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the grip.

    24. JOJonny1:05:12

        And you have to pick that up, pick that up and get it up to a certain height. Now, that is one of the most... It- it's got the weirdest, like, strength curve. So, I can do like, sets of five, sets of 10 with 50 kilos, but I cannot make 60 kilos leave the floor at all.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:05:29

        (laughs)

    26. JOJonny1:05:29

        And it's just grip. It's like pinch and support grip.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:05:33

        Why, um, why are you trying to improve your grip?

    28. JOJonny1:05:36

        Banter.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:05:36

        Because why not? (laughs) Banter.

    30. JOJonny1:05:38

        Well, isn't that- Well, just- it's just something I've not tried, so I was like, "I saw that." I was like, "Oh, that's pretty good. I wonder- I wonder what I could do on that." And then lo and behold, a lot harder than you think.

Episode duration: 1:12:32