Modern WisdomWhat Science Says Makes Your Life Happier | Susanna Halonen
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120 min read · 23,995 words- 0:00 – 2:43
Why happiness science matters (and the case for journaling)
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Hi, friends. This week we're talking about happiness. The field of psychology for a very long time was focused on making bad people okay, as opposed to okay people better, or happy people even more happy. I'm happy to sit down (laughs) , pardon the pun, with Susanna Hallinan, who is the world's first happiologist. She is a positive psychology specialist, the author of Happiness Is Here and Screw Finding Your Passion. She's a published researcher, TEDx speaker, online columnist, and a regular commentator in the media from the BBC to the Huffington Post and more, and we're gonna try and find out how to become a little bit happier in life. I was incredibly surprised at how many basic steps we can take in our day-to-day life to actually make our level of happiness, our baseline level of satisfaction improved. It, uh, it was very enlightening and, and there was a lot of new information that came out of this. Now one of the key tools that Susanna suggests that everybody should be using is a journal, and I know that I will be asked for some advice on which journal I recommend and which one I use, so the Six Minute Diary, which I've mentioned on numerous life hacks, the podcast with Warren Cass and the podcast with Ewan Lawson will be linked in the show notes below. It's my favorite way to develop a journaling habit, three minutes on a morning, three minutes in the evening with prompts for questions. Susanna gives you a lovely little, uh, program that you can follow as well on a weekly and a daily basis. You can add those in. I've chosen to, as there are sections in the diary to add weekly notes as well. If you follow the link in the show notes below, you will be supporting this channel at no extra cost to yourself, so please do so. If you want to start journaling, consider using the Six Minute Diary, as it's my favorite. Now let's chase after some happiness. (upbeat music) Susanna Hallinan, welcome to Modern Wisdom.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
- CWChris Williamson
It's fantastic. How are you?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, I'm very good. I'm feeling good. The, the sun is shining. I've had a good start to the week, so yeah, it's all good. (laughs)
- 2:43 – 6:21
What a “happiologist” does & Susanna’s path from corporate to positive psychology
- CWChris Williamson
That's brilliant. So let's get straight into it. Can you tell me what a happiologist is, please?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
So, um, basically as my job, as the happiologist, uh, my mission in life is to make the world a happier place, and the way I do that is anything from one-to-one coaching work, to workshops, to keynote talks at organizations, and I've recently started also doing more online courses on it and some books as well, and it's basically just all about helping you to live a happier and more fulfilling life, in short. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Okay. Well, it sounds like a, a pretty noble pursuit, I suppose.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. I mean, I, I love it. I, it's, it's amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
It must be very fulfilling.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes, it is. It absolutely is, and it is really the opposite, um, almost of what I used to do, 'cause I haven't always been the happiologist. So I went initially into, um, the corporate career doing, um, well, a mix of things from project management to marketing communications to PR, and very quickly realized it wasn't quite the world for me, and also I felt it wasn't meaningful enough for me, so I felt like I wanted to connect to the work that I was doing, um, more and feel like what I was doing was makes- making some kind of positive impact, and when I discovered positive psychology, I just had this epiphany moment that, that, that was it, that was kind of the thing that would help me to help others as well.
- CWChris Williamson
That was your calling in life, right?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes. Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
That's fantastic, 'cause I've seen you've done TEDx, uh, speaking.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You are a commentator from BBC to Huffington Post as well, so for, um, a subject area as ha- happiology, um (laughs) -
- SHSusanna Halonen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... which I guess is not tremendously mainstream, it's obvious that there's a demand for your, um, your work and your talents.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Absolutely, and it's, I think it's a, it's a growing field as well, so how I kind of got into it is initially just by, you know, exploring positive psychology with books and blogs and people in the field, and then eventually I went to do a Master's of Science in it, 'cause I really wanted to specialize myself in the actual science behind it. And, I mean, the university where I went to do it was the University of East London, and that was only the second university to offer positive psychology as a Master's of Science study.
- CWChris Williamson
So what, what, so is your Master's of Science is in positive psychology?
- SHSusanna Halonen
In applied positive psychology, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, right. Okay, okay. Um-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, I mean, if there was ever someone who had the natural passion and then the, uh, the academic backing to deploy this sort of research and, and this sort of knowledge, I guess that's the perfect storm for yourself, right?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely, and I think also because when I was, you know, going th- through my corporate career and trying to figure out, you know, what was wrong and why wasn't I happy and why was I so unfulfilled, I think that's also one of the things that attracted me to positive psychology, so when I went to study it, initially basically to use it to help other people, I also obviously tested every exercise and every tip and every practice on myself-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... so through that I was able to transform myself as well and take that journey myself that I now take my clients through-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... and...... I really managed to go from a natural pessimist to a trained optimist, and it's, yeah, it was an incredible journey, and it's, yeah, it was very worthwhile. (laughs)
- 6:21 – 8:10
Nature vs nurture: how much happiness is actually in your control?
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So you've touched on something there that I really wanted to ask you. Can you tell us how much of our level of happiness is nature and how much of it is nurture?
- SHSusanna Halonen
So, well, when we talk about external versus internal things when it comes to our happiness, according to research, on average, only about 10% of our happiness is predicted by external things, so our environment, things like, I don't know, the job we're in, um, the neighborhood we live in, the relationship we're in. Everything that's outside of us, that's really only 10% our h- of our happiness, and 90% is entirely up to you. Now, obviously, in that 90%, there are some genetics at play, so our kind of family history in terms of mental health and well-being does have some influence, but there's a huge chunk is basically just about our perspective and how we choose to approach life.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. So, you are broadly in control?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I always say happiness is, is not, it's not a destination that we get to when we get that perfect job, or dream house, or amazing relationship. No. Because yes, of course, when we get those things, we get a sense of achievement and pride and we get excited, but after you get those things, you quickly adapt back to that same mood set point that you were in before-
- CWChris Williamson
For sure.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... and it's actually about learning to choose happiness on a daily level, because happiness is not a destination, it is a daily choice, and the way you make that daily choice is by really learning to embrace your mindset and your perspective and really practice an attitude of gratitude on a daily level.
- 8:10 – 9:29
Hedonic adaptation & the “next milestone” trap
- CWChris Williamson
Well, hopefully we can try and lay out a framework for some of the listeners to be able to follow that today. So you'd briefly mentioned it there, I wanted to ask, is that, um, what you've just discussed with regards to chasing the house and it not being the fulfillment and then the reset, is that hedonic adaptation?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, pretty much, because that's the thing, we're chasing all these things. I mean, there is a little bit of eudaimonic happiness there a little bit, because when we're chasing goals and we're growing and challenging ourself and pushing ourselves, whenever we're growing and evolving, we naturally get a sense of purpose and it's a sense of meaning also because we know kind of why we're doing what we're doing. But I think the mistake is that then we think, well, when we get that, that's it. That's, that's the kind of end and then we're there and we're permanently happy, when r- usually when we just get to that goal, we just set another one and another milestone-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... and something else to reach for. Which of course is good because then you are striving and pushing yourself, but the mistake is that then like you say, you just adapt to the circumstances and you're like, "Ooh, I'm not happy with what I have anymore. I would need more to be happy." When in-
- CWChris Williamson
The next big house, the next nice car.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Exactly. Exactly. When in fact, if we just learn to kind of appreciate the now every day, regardless of what you have or where you are, still keep striving for those goals, but still learn to kind of enjoy that journey and every step of the way towards them.
- 9:29 – 11:27
Can you be grateful and still ambitious? Finding the balance
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that the, uh, do you think that it's a difficult task for someone to be grateful and feel satisfied with what they have, which i- it would appear you say, uh, you were alluding to, uh, helps to manifest happiness whilst also keeping themselves hungry for, for that drive to get more? Do you understand how that, that could seem conceptually to be two, two opposites?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, but I think it's just about finding the right balance because you can still have goals and you can still have milestones and you can still appreciate the journey towards them. So, being grateful for what you have doesn't mean that you don't grow or learn or push yourself or go after the things you want. It doesn't mean you stay at status quo and never strive for anything. It just means that whenever you are faced with a challenge or a setback or a failure, you're still able to see the positives, you can see it as a learning opportunity, and then you can almost use that as fuel to keep going. And also on those days when maybe you are feeling a little bit more low or sad or stressed, then you can swoop in with gratitude-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... and actually pay attention to all the good things that you do have in your life as well. So it is really all about finding kind of that perfect balance between being content and fulfilled with what you have whilst also pushing yourself to grow and evolve as well.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think that must be a very difficult balance for a lot of people. I know looking at my own experience that a lot of the time I, I can sometimes, um, or in the past, I have not allowed myself to be as grateful or as thankful for things that have gone on because in the back of my mind, I think I've thought, "Well, if I get comfortable with this, my drive to improve is going to wane."
- SHSusanna Halonen
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"And I'm, I'm somehow going to become, um, complacent and that's going to, that's going to prevent me from continuing to chase down my dreams, so to speak."
- SHSusanna Halonen
Hmm.
- 11:27 – 13:26
Defining happiness: pleasure + purpose (hedonic + eudaimonic)
- CWChris Williamson
And I think, uh, I think that's definitely, definitely something that a lot of people will be dealing with. So before we get into it, can you define being happy or can you define happiness?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Well, basically if you kind of summarize it in positive psychology terms, happiness equals, in short, pleasure plus purpose. And when I'm talking about pleasure, so that's simplifying that whole hedonic happiness side of the equation, which is all about short-term positive emotions, things like savoring, delight, laughter, joy, contentment, all of those things, and then purpose is all about having that sense of meaning. So that's more tied to eudaimonic happiness, and that gives more of a long-term sustainable type of happiness that fulfills you in a completely different way. So if you're able to h- understand what brings you hedonic happiness, so those short-term bursts of positive emotions, and also what gives you eudaimonic happiness, so that sense of purpose, that sense of why, connecting to yourself, feeling like you're fulfilled in the life that you live, then those two things are what basically make happiness happen for you.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow, so you've got these two very distinct elements. Presumably, there's an interplay between the two.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
But in the same way as, um, someone's training schedule will consist of both training and nutrition, and the two interplay between each other but are both distinct as well.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
In order to chase down the goal of happiness, you need to have both of these.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
That's, um... I mean, it makes sense. (laughs) It's not something that I, that I directly knew, but it definitely makes sense that there's these two elements to it. Um-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, what's the framework that you begin to give people to turn that concept of two different kinds of, um, happiness? How do they begin to implement that in their lives or, or, um, chase it down to manifest it?
- 13:26 – 18:53
Start with gratitude: the 3-specific-things journal (21-day habit)
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Well, I think before I even start talking to them about hedonic or eudaimonic happiness, um, I encourage them to turn gratitude into a habit. Because when you're able to have an attitude of gratitude, that's when you can actually totally rewire your brain and you start to see things differently, you start to notice things differently. So, the first exercise I give all my clients is a gratitude journal, um, which is basically finishing every single day by writing down three specific things that you were most grateful for in that specific day. And, uh, really key there is to make sure that they are specific, so it's not just, "I'm grateful for my family, I'm grateful for my job, I'm grateful for the sun." No, it has to be really specific like, "I'm grateful for a lovely Skype call I had with my brother who lives in a different country and it was really nice to catch up."
- CWChris Williamson
I thought you were going to- I thought you were going to say, "A, a lovely Skype call I had with Chris."
- SHSusanna Halonen
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
That as well, that as well, yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
So, so the thing is with the gratitude exercise is to make sure that they are really specific to that day, and then to keep doing that gratitude exercise every evening at least for 21 days, if not longer. Um, basically when you start to notice yourself going into your day looking for things to be grateful for like, "Oh, I could put that in my journal later. Oh, that could go in and that could go in," that's when you know that it's starting to work. That's when you know you're starting to learn to focus more on the positives, on the things that you can be grateful for, and you can start approaching life with more of this sense of awe and wonder that children, for example, approach it with. And once you start getting your mindset into that kind of place, that's when it's a lot easier to start exploring these questions of hedonic and eudaimonic happiness, like, "What is it that actually brings me joy and what is it that brings me eudaimonic happiness?" Also, because then you can look back in your gratitude journal and you will probably start to see common denominators, like-
- CWChris Williamson
There'll be some patterns, right?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Exactly, exactly. So, that's always kind of the first step, um, I encourage people to take when it comes to them shifting into, into a more positive place, regardless of what's going on around them, but really starting to focus on, on working on that inner mindset.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that, uh, is gratitude the foundation upon which happiness is built then, to a degree?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Because without gratitude it's, it's very difficult to see the light in a lot of things, you know, because gratitude leads to anything from being able to be more creative, to productive, to being able to think of more solutions, to being able to focus on the good, appreciate the people in your life, deal with stress more effectively. I mean, it just goes on and on in terms of the benefits of gratitude, because you really start to approach things from a completely different angle.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Well, I, uh, I like the fact that you've, you've brought up stuff to do with habits. We spend a lot of time talking about habits on the show, and I swear that you, uh, you aren't reading my notes, but there is, "How can habits impact happiness?" a little bit (laughs) further down my notes.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
We're gonna come back to that in a little bit. But, I think the, the litmus test of are you starting to see things during your day that you want to become grateful for or that you, you seek and, um, will, will feature potentially in the journal or in your diary later on in the day, I think that's a, a really nice way to put it. I used this example previously, but, um, one of my friends was talking about his training and he was saying that he was not getting enough sleep and he was not getting enough, uh, food at the moment, and his training wasn't optimal. And I've been journaling for a little while, and his approach to that was, "I'm not optimal, I'm not in my best, uh, I've not prepared myself the best to go in and train."
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"Therefore, therefore, I can afford to write training off to a degree." And we had a, we had a conversation about it and he was a little bit down, and my approach to it, which surprised myself because this isn't my ty- or this wouldn't have usually been my typical way of looking at it, my way to look at it was to say, "Well, look, mate, you have the opportunity here to conduct, uh, training sessions under duress and under non-ideal circumstances. This is an opportunity so that if you go into a competition and-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you know you haven't slept sufficiently well, you know that you haven't eaten well, maybe you've traveled, maybe whatever's happened, you know that you've still got it in the tank, so this is an opportunity for you to be grateful for, yeah, okay, maybe it's not ideal, but how can we flip that on its head and actually make it into a positive rather than a negative?" And I think-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for me, that was a very small but really stark, uh, identifier that the journaling practice... I've just completed five months yesterday, actually.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Oh, amazing.
- CWChris Williamson
So, I've finished my first one. I've had to get a new one. And this happens to be the third podcast in a row where we've brought up journaling. So, the one that was released just last week with Dr. Ewan Lawson, author of The Healthy Writer, that he, he sang the praises of journaling. And I think when you've got so many different, uh, so many people from different, um, fields, all of whom are converging over the top of a, a single habit, I think for anybody who's listening who isn't journaling and isn't doing gratitude, I think that that's a-... it's definitely a good place to start. So, you're talking about three things on an evening that people are grateful for, and that is beginning to form the foundation, is that right?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes, absolutely. Definitely.
- 18:53 – 23:01
Turning gratitude into meaning: spotting patterns & asking “why?”
- CWChris Williamson
Great. And where do we go from there?
- SHSusanna Halonen
So, from there, I think, like you said, we can start... Once we've done it for a couple of weeks, we can start looking at those patterns, and then we can start actually exploring those two questions about, what is it that actually makes you feel joy in those s- short-term moments of positive emotions? And on the other side, what is it that gives you that sense of meaning? Because especially when it comes to sense of meaning, and that why, and that purpose, a lot of people tend to get overwhelmed with the idea that in order to have purpose in your life, you're supposed to be curing cancer, abolishing poverty-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
... or solving some massive humanitarian cause. And it's like, "Well, no, actually the definition of purpose is just you knowing why you do what you do." So, as long as you understand why what you're doing has actually some kind of outcome, or purpose, or is- is somehow meaningful to you, that's good enough. And I think, yes, it's still good to explore the whole, if you want to have some kind of positive impact, you know, you wanna leave your mark on the world, but we have to start small because those big questions can be really overwhelming, especially-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
... if you haven't really explored it before.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree.
- SHSusanna Halonen
So really, just start by looking at your daily actions, you know, brushing your teeth. "Oh, why do I brush my teeth? Oh, well, so I can have healthy teeth." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. (laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
And it's like, you know, "Why do I go to the gym or go for a walk in the park? Well, it's good to exercise. Okay. And it makes me feel good. Okay, I get it." Right. You go into work mode. "Okay. Why am I doing, I don't know, this report for my manager? Oh, it's because he needs it to show to the board or the team or whatever. Oh, okay, so that's the why behind that." Because once you just start asking yourself, right, "Why am I doing this?" then you start to connect to all those different actions on a daily level in your life and at your work, and you can actually start to create more of that sense of meaning and purpose without daunting yourself with that massive question, "Ooh, what's my life purpose?" No-
- CWChris Williamson
End goal, right? Yeah. I think.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes, (laughs) exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
To- to bring it back to the listeners (laughs) , the listeners are gonna know what I'm gonna say, to bring it back to Jordan Peterson, one of the, um, exercises that he uses is clean up your room. I'm not sure if you've heard him talk about this.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Uh, no, I haven't actually.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. So, he... The first thing that he gets a lot of his, uh, patients to do is to begin to clean up their room. And what he says is that your bedroom is a domain of competence that you broadly, most people, generally speaking, will have control over.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
There are very few people whose bedrooms are so out of control they couldn't tame it themselves. And the point is that you start off by getting control over a domain of competence that is within your capabilities, and then once the room is clean, then you can look right. "Okay, maybe, maybe I can try and do the bathroom. Maybe I can try and do the kitchen. Okay, well, my friend's got something going on with their house, with their life, with their..." And as you begin to clean up the small things first, you build a brick, on top of a brick, on top of a brick, and before you know it, it's a wall, which is your capacity to overcome things, but also-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... also the domain of competence grows, so what beco- what gets in- included within that web of what you're trying to take on also becomes broader. And I think that the, um, starting small, starting at finding, "What am I doing now? Why is it giving me purpose? What is the, what is the larger perspective looking at these tasks?" I think that that sort of ties across really nicely.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, absolutely. And that's just it, like you said, like, all those tiny little steps do end up building that massive (laughs) fortress in the end, but it's just about really breaking it down and taking the ti- d- d- doing the tiniest thing you can do, or asking that tiniest why question, and then that's how you can start building it up. Because also with kind of every step forward and every question that you kind of answer, you get more of that sense of confidence as well and more of that fulfillment, so then you want to do even another step, and even another step. So, each step kind of fuels the next one as well.
- 23:01 – 33:49
Confidence, cheerleaders, and getting out of harsh self-criticism
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I really wanted to ask this question actually, you've just touched on it there. Can you explain how confidence and happiness interplay?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, I mean, they're completely interlinked, so happier people are more confident, and also the more (laughs) confident you tend to be, the happier you feel. So, it is kind of like this positive spiral. And a lot of it is to do with, um, because when you feel confident with yourself, that's when you kind of believe in yourself, you have a sense of, you know, self-love and self-compassion, and you appreciate that you have certain, you know, abilities, and strengths, and qualities, and traits, and talents that you are meant to share with the world. And when you have that sense of confidence within you, you're naturally gonna show up more as who you are wherever you go, so naturally you're gonna be living a life that's much more aligned with who you are, which again, is another kind of driver of happiness because you're not trying to build a life by being somebody who you're not, or just being, trying to be somebody who you think you should be. But if you have that natural sense of confidence, you tend to really connect to your values, to your truth, and build a life according to them, so naturally that is also gonna fuel y- uh, fuel your happiness and- and fulfillment on many levels.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's- that's really interesting. Again, to draw- draw it across to something else Jordan Peterson talks about, rule number seven of his 40 Rules for Life is tell the truth.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, in fact, no, it's not, it's rule number one, I can't remember it that well. Yeah, uh, rule number one, tell the truth, and, uh, rule number three, act so that you can tell the truth by how you act.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, so you'd mentioned there that people, um...... should start to take pride in the things that they do. I, I can imagine, I can hear some of my more negative friends already saying, "Well, I have nothing to be proud of. I'm not proud of anything that I do in my life." What do we say to that?
- SHSusanna Halonen
(laughs) Well, we tell them to dig deeper-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
... basically. (laughs) "If we don't give out-"
- CWChris Williamson
"I, I can't be confident, I can't be confident because ..." Or, "I have no confidence because I don't do anything which is of value to me."
- SHSusanna Halonen
So this is when I think it's really important to be surrounded by cheerleaders. So these are kind of, you know, your, your dream tribe around you, so people who really support you and encourage you. And, you know, if you have a friend who's a little bit like that or is having a rough day or is just not seeing- not able to see any of their successes or achievements, that's when it's kind of your opportunity to also step up and say, "Look, I, I ... Do you think you're being realistic about this?" And then, just point out certain things, like, "What about that time when, I don't know, you spoke up to your manager and said, 'Actually, could I change the way this is done? Because I think it's more productive.' Or that time when, I don't know, they succeeded in a fitness challenge." Anything, just anything goes. And I think it's also then about bringing it back to, to you and your relationship with them and talk about, "Well, actually, I think you're an incredible friend. You've always been really supportive and encouraging." And again, try and give concrete examples as much as possible, because then you can start to help kind of see it in a different way, um, because that's also how I talk to some of my clients who maybe have had or have- currently have some confidence issues, and they can't really see anything positive and are being a bit too self-critical. You know, I really try and ask them to try and turn themselves ... Try and put yourself in the shoes of your best friend who's always supported you, encouraged you, and loved you, and what would they say to you right now? You know, what is it that they would want you to hear in this moment of, of your doubt? Because then, you can really step in, and you can start exploring, no, there are actually positives at play. Oh, okay, there was this time where I was successful or this time that I did well or this time when I helped somebody. And again, try and- try and really look for the tiniest little things. And when you start exploring it and thinking about it, then more and more will come out, but it's just about making sure you really push your brain really to work hard on this and, and just really think of as many examples as possible. Because initially, you might come up with the most obvious ones, but then, you just say, "Okay, what are three more examples? What are three more examples?" And just keep pushing and pushing, and then eventually, they'll be like, "Oh, okay." They'll- they might look back on their list or that conversation that you've had and be like, "Okay, fair enough, maybe there are some times that, you know, I have done things well, and I have been successful, and okay, I can, I can recreate more of that," et cetera.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I think, having done the ... h- having done my gratitude journaling for quite a while now, it's strange to see what it is that I find of value to myself. I think, after a little while, these patterns begin to emerge, as you said.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And they're not necessarily (laughs) always the things that you think.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
They're not, you know ... It's never- I've never written in my gratitude journal at the end of the day, um, "I'm grateful for getting 2,000 likes on a- on a (laughs) photo on Instagram."
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes, (laughs) yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's nev- that's never appeared, and I think a lot of the time wha- uh, what that's led to happening is for me to look at where I'm spending my time during the day and then what it is that I'm valuing on a night. And I'm seeing quite a contrast between the two at times, although I'm trying to (laughs) close the- close the gap as best I can.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, sometimes, uh, especially early on, the amount of time and effort that was being invested into things which, at the end of the day, wouldn't- wouldn't even feature in the, the, the periphery of what could enter the gratitude journal, was ... It, it, it just meant, "Well, why am I spending my time doing that?"
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"Why, why ... It's not fulfilling me. It's not making me feel any better." It's when I'm alone with my thoughts at the end of the day just before I go to bed and I'm writing in what were the best parts of my day, it's- it's not there. So, when the day starts afresh again tomorrow, maybe, maybe think about not doing it.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's really good to do that kind of self-reflection on a continuous basis, because as a human being, you're naturally evolving daily, and you are very dynamic from every level. And that means that sometimes these things can also shift. So, maybe things that you thought were really important to you, I don't know, five years ago, maybe you've still kept doing them, and then you realize, "Hmm, today, actually, I, I'm not connecting with them anymore." And that's when you need to check in and say, "Oh, okay, maybe this is something that I shouldn't be doing anymore." So, it's about constantly checking in with yourself, your actions, your values, all those things, so that you can really understand, "Okay, what is it that's fueling my fulfillment, and am I basically doing enough of it on a daily level?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, uh, uh, uh, I couldn't agree more. So, we've got the gratitude that we're doing on a daily basis. We've started to look at the, uh, things that we know can give us- the small things- that we know can give us purpose day to day.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Where do you take it from there?
- SHSusanna Halonen
So then, I would really encourage people to practice resilience. (laughs) And again, that's something that both of these things fuel anyway. So, the more grateful you are, the more optimistic you are, the more resilient you tend to be. And when I talk about resilience, it's- it's not about being stubborn-minded and things like that and just sticking with things that you know aren't right for you. No, it's about understanding that, when you are faced with a setback or a challenge or some kind of failure, it's there for a reason. It's there as an opportunity for you to check in with yourself, for you to grow, for you to push yourself out of your comfort zone, for you to develop. And when I talk about resilience, I talk a lot about, um, Growth Mindset by Carol Dweck. Have you heard of that?
- CWChris Williamson
I've heard of it but not read it.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, so basically yeah, it's, I, it's one of the, I think one of my favorite books, um, from my studying times. It was incredible and it really completely shifted my mindset. And she talks about basically these two ways to approach life when it comes to your mindset, so you can have a fixed mindset or a growth mindset. And if you have a fixed mindset, you basically think that your abilities, your traits, your intelligence is fixed and that's it, that's what you've kind of been gifted with and that's what you have to work with, and you just carry on with that. Whereas somebody with a growth mindset sees their traits, skills, intelligence, abilities, something that they can always develop and that they oh, they can always evolve and they can always grow in. Now, when it comes to you facing different situations, obviously there are certain situations that can maybe put you more in a fixed mindset and other ones that can push you more into a growth mindset. But the important bit is to really try and again, be aware of this and see kind of where you think you fit in the scale when you are faced with a challenge. Because if you are able to harness a growth mindset, that's when you start seeing those challenges as opportunities to grow and learn, you start seeing other people's success as inspiration, not threat, you really start taking feedback in a positive way and realize, okay, this is an opportunity for me to grow rather than taking it personally and thinking this is just an attack on you. And that's why I think when it comes to resilience and really being able to face all the challenges and all the unplanned surprises that we have on a daily basis pretty much- (laughs) Yeah.
- 33:49 – 35:59
Weekly reflection ritual: proud of, learned, and most beautiful moment
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So that's taking it a little bit of a step further than just the gratitude, it's a reflection period generally.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. I-
- CWChris Williamson
So do you encourage your clients and your patients to, um, to take these, to periodize reflection?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Well, I encourage, if you can, at the end of every week to basically answer three questions. Um, and again, you can do journaling or you can talk to somebody about it, you can just think about it. I mean, again, I'm a huge fan of journaling, so I always recommend that 'cause also putting stuff out on paper kind of helps you digest them in a more effective way. Um, but the three questions are, is basically one, what was the one thing that I'm most proud of from the last week? The second question is, what is one learning that I've had in the last week? And the final is, what is the most beautiful moment I've had in the last week? So it kind of, again, touches on all those different elements of, okay, what is it that I'm proud of, how can I connect to that sense of achievement and, and connect to my myself and my truth and feel more of that compassion? And the second is all about that learning. So really about understanding, okay, was there a setback or a challenge or something that really helped me to learn?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- SHSusanna Halonen
And what was that learning that I can now take forward with me? And the final, just reflecting on one beautiful moment from that week because I think we just generally don't take enough time to just pause and reflect on all the kind of amazing things that are happening around us and just picking one moment that you're kind of gonna spend some time, extra time savoring after it's happened can really help to, to boost not only those positive emotions, but also that sense of fulfillment.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think so. The, the time that you can spend to ruminate over something which gives you pleasure inh-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... i- inherently is, it's very liberating, and it's like-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like f- free happiness presuming that ... Do you know what I mean? Like, you've already done it. You've put the investment in, the activity has gone, and you're now able to just revisit that in your mind-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and elicit the same emotions again.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, absolutely.
- 35:59 – 40:01
Unhappiness vs happiness-building: when positive psychology isn’t the first step
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I wanted to ask a question that I think a lot of people will think.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Is tackling unhappiness the same as making people happy? So in CrossFit there is a spectrum of sickness to wellness to fitness.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Or sickness to health to fitness. So is this the same?
- SHSusanna Halonen
So it depends pretty much how you define unhappiness, because obviously if you have been diagnosed with clinical depression, it's a little bit of a different ball game, and there are y- you need to kind of be a little bit more cautionate about what kind of exercises you do and, and, you know, work with a clinical psychologist to help kind of yourself work, work on yourself with the right tools 'cause sometimes depending on how, in what kind of place you are, some of the tools, if you struggle with them, they can make you feel worse. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I'm gonna guess a reflection period if you-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... if you're, if you're feeling really bad is just gonna send you ... The spiral, the echo chamber that you mentioned before of positivity-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is act- is actually just gonna bounce you off the walls about all of the bad stuff.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Exactly, because if you're not able to think of the positives and then you start just journaling or rather than, you know, that-
- CWChris Williamson
Ruminating about all of the bad stuff.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, um-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a bad idea.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, absolutely. And then, then I would encourage you to think more of things you can do with your body, so things like moving, breathing, smiling, hugging, you know, the power pose. Just kind of trying to almost trick your mind into a more positive place by getting your body into a more positive place as well. Um, and also when it comes to positive psychology, for example, it, it kind of got born in a way. (laughs) Um, I think it's been around, like, just, well, yeah, 20, just over 25 years now, and it kind of, uh, b- became what it is because the founding fathers, Martin Seligman and, and, um, Mihaly, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, they said that traditional psychology is a little bit too focused on kind of the negatives, so how to get people from minus five to zero. Whereas positive psychology really focuses on how you get from zero to plus five. So you're already kind of stable and you're kind of healthy overall. Yes, you can still worry and stress and have anxiety and things like this, but you're in a place where you feel kind of s- at least somewhat confident that you are capable of working on yourself and you believe, most importantly, that you can get to a better place. And when you're in that place, that's when you can really start using a lot of these positive psychology exercises to, to get to that happier place.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I understand that completely. I think, to draw it back to the training or the CrossFit analogy, that is right. It is a spectrum-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of going from unhappiness to normality, uh, whatever you class as normal, to then happiness.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
But in the same way as someone who's sedentary and hasn't been training, you don't get them off the couch and then try and get them to deadlift 200 kilos.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You... There's, there's an on-ramp, there's... Uh, to get them through the spectrum, the methodology is different and the specifics are different, but the concept is the same.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
However, there are stages at which people need to be taken through. Right, okay, you haven't moved, you haven't moved for a long time, why don't we try and do 10 minutes of walking a day? Why don't we do 30 minutes of walking? Why don't we go for a light jog? Why don't we begin to do some weight training? And in the same way as there is a, uh, a paradigm and within each strata, as people begin to move through it, uh, they open up new exercises which they can use and utilize in different ways and probably dispense with old ones.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
There's not, there's not many top level CrossFit athletes who are probably considering going for a 10-minute walk because that's contributing to their training.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, yeah.
- 40:01 – 48:31
Body-first happiness tools: movement, smiling, nutrition, and sleep
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's really, really interesting. So what does... W- is there anything else which science says makes people happy which we haven't covered so far?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Uh, yeah, I mean, well, there's a lot (laughs) basically.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- SHSusanna Halonen
Um, well, I mean, we've talked a little bit about the body, and obviously, um, with the CrossFit mentions that you've made as well, maybe it's, it's, it's good to spend a little bit of time talking about that and what we can do with our body as well because-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... as much as we think, you know, our mind is driven, uh, is a- is, affects our body, our body also affects our mind. And actually if we're able to kind of nurture ourselves and take care of ourselves and give our body the things that we need, from healthy exercise, to enough rest, to the right nutrition, then we're in a- already starting in a better place. But also, when it comes to specific exercises you can do with your body physically to start shifting your mindset into a positive one, I mean, the most simplest one is smiling. And I mean, it sounds ridiculous and silly and a lot of people laugh about it, but there is a whole chemical reaction that happens in your body when you smile, and actually even a fake smile can trigger it.
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, so that's, that's true even regardless of whether the smile-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... is elicited due to you being happy. If you smile-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... your body, your mind will respond.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Exactly, because that's when the dopamine, the serotonin, all of those things kick in, they start flowing in your body, and then you actually start to feel better, and then you want to smile even more. And the more you smile, the more of they go into your body, and again, the better you feel. So even kind of forcing a fake smile can help to start (laughs) make that shift. And best of all, with the smiling, it's also very contagious. So, you know, if you go, uh, to a, into a room and you smile at people, you kn- the mirror neurons in the back of their brains all automatically get activated and they immediately want to reciprocate and smile back at you. I mean, that's just something that evolutionarily is something that happens naturally without you thinking about it. So you have to try really hard not to smile when somebody is just giving-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, 100%.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. So I think that's just something to, to remind yourself of, as simple as that, just smiling and then, oh-
- CWChris Williamson
So it's a, it's a double win, right? You get-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... the effect on yourself, plus you get the effect on other people, plus you get their, uh, reciprocated, um, likeness towards you.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, exactly, exactly. And it builds more meaningful connections. It just fuels positive energy within you and around you, so it's, it's really a, a win-win-win in a way. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Can you, can you talk to us about, uh, diet and its effect on mood and happiness?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, I mean, the thing is with diet, if we don't get all the nutrients into our body that we need, you know, the vitamins, the protein, the carbo- everything, w- we actually start depriving of our body and our body naturally goes into a state of stress. And if our body is in act- in a state of stress because it's not getting what it needs and it thinks it's in starvation mode or it's not getting enough water, it's continuously dehydrated, then that's when it starts to kind of shut down some body parts to try and preserve your energy, and one of the things that it starts to shut down the first is actually your mind. So, you actually have less power over your brain and less capacity of your brain power to use because your body is thinking, "Ooh, they haven't eaten well, or there aren't nutrients. Ooh, maybe, like, I'm in starvation mode. Okay, I need to preserve my energy. I need to hold, you know, things back." And then you start being less able to manage your thoughts and also your emotions and being able to think creatively because your body just ha- doesn't have the fuel it needs in order to do that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Uh, I know calorifically that the brain is incredibly expensive-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm. It is.
- CWChris Williamson
... for the, for the body. I think it's something like, um, 5% of your weight but takes up 30% of your, of your energy or your calories.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, I think that something along those lines. Am I right in thinking that there's a very high number of, is it dopamine or serotonin, uh, either receptors in the gut or releases in the gut?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes. Yes. Exactly. That as well. So that when you're basically digesting stuff and, and processing food, you need to also make sure that that's all happening and, and that's why that fuel is just so important because like then that would also then connect to the smile and how effective the smile is because obviously it's harder to smile if, if you don't have those things in a readily, in a ready state to function as well. And again, they need that fuel to, to really keep going.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, definitely. So, we've touched on a little bit on exercise. We need to get some people moving.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
If people are, if people want to be happier, they can move more.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes. Absolutely.
- 48:31 – 53:01
Busyness, self-compassion, and making happiness sustainable
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. (laughs) Exactly. Exactly. And I think you, you, you brought up a really important point there about kind of being kinder to yourself as well, you know, being aware of what's going on in your life and like you're having, like, like you said, 20-hour days. I mean, oh my god, of course, you need to just...... relax, recharge, and recuperate as much as you can. And I think that's, again, another thing, especially in today's society where I think we seem to be rewarded by busyness and the more we do, and, you know, the, the, the better we seem to look to the outside world, and just having a packed schedule and running from one place to another. And it's like, well, no, that's, that's not what life is about. It actually, we need to kind of take more time to nurture ourselves and spend some quality time with ourselves and make sure that we are in a happy, healthy, and fit state, because otherwise, we don't really have much left to give to others either.
- CWChris Williamson
100%. Uh, there's a, uh, a couple of things that you've touched on there that I've spoken about recently, and one of them is to do with, uh, I used an analogy in an Instagram post, and I said, "Why is it that in an airplane which is going down, they ask you to put your oxygen mask on before they ask you to put on anybody else's?"
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's because if you're suffocating, your capacity to help other people becomes drastically reduced.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And the same thing, the same thing talks true here. If you're not giving yourself time and care and love, even if you think you're making the sacrifice of yourself, um, f- on behalf of someone else because they need your time more-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... you're restricting how much of yourself you can give them by not caring about yourself.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, I think that's, yeah. The, uh, uh, a lot of this appears to, to come back to having more compassion, having more self-compassion. Again, another Jordan Peterson rule for life, treat yourself as someone you are responsible for helping.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
It's, you know, that, that compassion, it is a really big deal, and I, I love the concept about, um, people seeing busyness as some marker for purpose.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But, uh, but I think busyness is being conflated with purpose.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's the, it's the one-inch deep gossamer thin veneer-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, as opposed to actually looking at what's underneath that and trying to fix that problem-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... or trying to work out what, what actually is meaningful to me. Well, I'm so busy, I can't work out what's meaningful to me.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
My schedule's so packed, I don't have time to reflect.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you, you don't have time to work out whether something's good or bad because you're just in so much chaos-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Well, it's-
- CWChris Williamson
... that you don't have time.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, absolutely. And it's like that saying, um, if you think you're too stressed or too busy to meditate, then you should meditate twice as long.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. That's it.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Because, yeah. You'd s- I mean, that's when you need it the most, and that's when you prio- uh, you have to prioritize it even more, as difficult as it may seem. But th- uh, uh, you have to. It's like, it's self-preservation. I mean, it's, it's survival.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a non-negotiable, I think, for me.
- 53:01 – 1:03:22
Inside Susanna’s book: a 30-day guided program (values, relationships, decluttering, intuition)
- CWChris Williamson
I think there's, there's probably going to be some sh- some harsh realizations. So, I want to talk about Happiness Is Here.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you brought a, you brought a book out January this year?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, take us through it.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. So, um, uh, yeah. So it's called Happiness Is Here, and it's basically a 30-day guide to joy and fulfillment. So, it's, uh, the, the book basically summarizes kind of the most transformational tips when it came to me changing my mindset from a natural pessimist to a trained optimist, and me kind of finding happiness and fulfillment in my life. So, I was really keen to share those tips with the rest of the world. So, it is quite, uh, uh, a personal story. So I share a little bit about where I was at happiness at the start, as in not very happy (laughs) , and also, when I went into positive psychology and how kind of everything that I learned there, and continued to learn even beyond my studies afterwards, still now, today, through life and through, you know, coming across different things. Um, it was really important for me to share those learnings that were most helpful for me and also have been most helpful for my clients when it comes to just, yeah, starting to bring more happiness into your life. And-
- CWChris Williamson
It must be, it must be such a, a, um, you must have a wealth of things to pick from, and it must be quite difficult to a degree because-
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... aca- academically, you understand the subject matter. Anecdotally, you understand your own personal experience of it.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And then professionally, you understand how this is being deployed to your clients.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So, you know, I think if there was, if there was anyone that I was gonna trust to give me a, um, a program that I was going to follow to try and become more happy, I think that you, uh, I think you definitely tick all of the boxes there.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Oh (laughs) , thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- SHSusanna Halonen
Well, that's good (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So, c- take us through some of the things that you cover in the book.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah, so, well some of the things we've discussed today, so in terms of what happiness is, basically there's pleasure and purpose. That's all, or, or, or they're all kind of in there as well, so kind of debunking some of those myths around happiness. Um, and there's also a lot about kind of really understanding to connect to yourself, so there's a whole section about you personally and your values, and just you learning to connect to your own inner truth as well. 'Cause the way I've kind of structured is with these 30 days, so the idea is that every chapter, it's, it's quite short, you can probably read it in five to 10 minutes. At the end of every chapter, there's basically a tip that you're meant to practice on that day.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SHSusanna Halonen
And, you know, the first part is all about those happiness truths and myths, and then it's about your unique happiness, so connecting to that purpose, your values, what gives you hedonic happiness. Then we start looking at your perspective, so I talk about gratitude there, a little bit more deeply about optimism, noticing the beauty, resilience, all those things that we've kind of touched on. I also look a little bit, um, on relationships 'cause obviously as humans, we are social creatures, so we not only need each other to survive but actually to thrive. So I give a few tips on how to make sure that you are connecting in a more meaningful way with the people in your life, um, and how you're celebrating as well those cheerleaders of yours-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- SHSusanna Halonen
... that you really appreciate. Um, and I do also have a chapter on, on decluttering some relationships because I think sometimes we hold on to people or relationships, uh, that maybe, well, either need a breather or need some kind of change and, or they just simply don't belong in your life anymore, and I think it's really important to take a kind of harsh true look at some of them, because if there are people in your life that are potentially holding you back or, or being toxic, then it's, it's important to try and distance yourself from that because you don't want them to start influencing your happiness in a negative way. Um, and then there's also a part about your body, you know, where I talk again a little bit more about smiling, moving, hugging, power pose, and then my final part, um, which I think is my favorite is all about making your happiness last, and this is where I talk about nurturing yourself, reflecting, finding time to be still, and also letting go of, of things that no longer serve you. So anything from your limiting beliefs to objects to people, kind of just anything that you feel like it's time to let go of now. Um, and I wrap up the book with, uh, some tips about listening to your heart and, and your intuition as well because that's, that's another point that I'm very, very passionate about, and I think in today's societies where we are very mind driven and rational, we've kind of forgotten a little bit about the heart and that gut feel and that intuition, and we forget that intuition knows so much more than our mind does. I mean, our intuition is basically connected to our body, our brain, and every single experience we've ever had in our lives, and we need to kind of learn to reconnect with that because that, again, is something that can really help guide us when it comes to us on our path and finding our truth and understanding what is it that's meaningful to you and what is it that you want to basically, uh, pursue and how you want to live your life.
- CWChris Williamson
That's really interesting. So is, is intuition defined in the scientific literature?
- SHSusanna Halonen
So, (laughs) I mean, there's been some attempts to define it. I think that's the, the, the tricky thing with intuition is because it, i- it's very hard to measure scientifically, especially in psychology terms. I mean, you can do subjective surveys and things like that on what people think is intuition, but-
- CWChris Williamson
Inherently very subjective though, right?
- SHSusanna Halonen
Yeah. Exactly. So it hasn't gone much further than that, um, but equally I do believe it has a role to play and I think that people are s- trying to kind of find ways to measure it and explore it, um, but then at the same time, maybe it's just one of those things that can't necessarily be explained with science, but it's just something that-
- CWChris Williamson
Well-
- SHSusanna Halonen
... we know through feeling.
- CWChris Williamson
... regardless of whether or not the research or the literature can define it, everybody who's listening understands what the manifestation of that phenomenon is like. Everyone understands what intuition feels like.
- SHSusanna Halonen
Mm.
Episode duration: 1:03:20
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Transcript of episode iFsH_TiJKwc
